math-and-meta

[oblique hollow]

you split the manifold

[upbeat summit]

but early game.... why sink when u can use it?

[oblique hollow]

dont make it one line, make it 2 seperate lines

[oblique hollow]

thats a decision you have to make. if its worth it to you

[pastel obsidian]

its not wortht he extra effort to some people

[fallow siren]

split to 250 250 belt, and fed to 2.5 asembler each

[upbeat summit]

ohhk fair enough

thanks a lot

[fierce ruin]

could i do this?

[fallow siren]

yes

[pastel obsidian]

But play the game in your own way

[fierce ruin]

and it'll work with no issue?

[vapid gorge]

You also need points, and that’s easy

[oblique hollow]

its not really the best solution and requires precise planning
(manifold question)

[fierce ruin]

i've got both 250/min lines ready

[oblique hollow]

its simpler to just split it and dont merge it again

[fierce ruin]

alright

[pastel obsidian]

There are different ways of doing it it all depends on your design philosophy

[fallow siren]

or u could do 3 machine each for 250 screw

the last machine is 50% clock speed

[fierce ruin]

yeah i'll do that

[pastel obsidian]

you could just set yourself a note to come back and upgrade the belt

[civic bronze]

The only notes i only take lol "gotta upgrade belts at item factory"

But i only do that for belts in factories using pure nodes, on production its fairly easy to just split the belts

[civic bronze]

its coming to life

[opaque quartz]

The “cyberwagon” can only be turned right regardless of what steering input you give it. It’s a joke and completely useless. Only reason to unlock it is for the achievement

[proven pawn]

Damn bruh

[pastel obsidian]

I've been experimenting with limited sushi belts this playthrough and it's been amazing at simplifying the belt work ngl

[restive sparrow]

Quite chuffed that I figured out a way to make a compact coal generator setup where the width of 8 coal generators matches perfectly over the width of only 2 water extractors!

Sorry I guess it's not exact. The staggered nature of it (to get the belts to align) makes it an additional 10m wide

You could have the generators completely aligned but to do that and have the belts still work you'd need them a lot farther apart in X, which is a lot larger space waster

[civic bronze]

Yeah i guess it makes sense to use 1 belt if you got couple items going one way that fit its throughput if you know what you are doing

[restive sparrow]

Someone mind telling me how I'm supposed to use this unit in this power generation calc? Is it trying to say I would need 400m3 of fuel every 0.15s?! That doesn't seem right.

[civic bronze]

20 fuel gens take 400 fuel/min i guess 0.15s is just the cycle time, not really related here

[wind spade]

gens don't have cycle time

[wind spade]

that's not cycle time

[civic bronze]

maybe its like combined? i have no idea never used this planner

[wind spade]

that's just duration of how long will fuel burn at that clock speed

(the screenshot, not the 0.15s)

[pastel obsidian]

It burns 1 fuel every .15 sec

[wind spade]

no?

[civic bronze]

That just sounds like "how long it takes for each cycle" i really dont see the difference

In other machines its the same

[wind spade]

because fuel gens don't take "20 fuel and then nothing for 1 minute"

[stone delta]

@oblique hollow Are you the original author for the Ficsit Pipeline Plumbing Manual? I wanted to ask if its worth it for me to contribute to your work by documenting and testing vertical pipe manifolds.

Also, I wanted to ask, does fluid sloshing also occur in the vertical direction or do VIP circuits eliminated sloshing issues?

[oblique hollow]

sloshing always happens when theres an imbalance in content between pipes and there is no established flow direction

if you have 2 pipes on flat ground and you fill one, then disconnect the source, they will keep moving fluid between each other endlessly

same way 2 buffers will keep draining into each other endlessly

sloshing is simply fluid moving from one pipe and then back because the pipe system never "loses energy" and never calms down

[stone delta]

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my query. At the same time, I am not sure if this address my concerns. I am not confident sloshing occurs in the vertical direction or in a VIP.

[oblique hollow]

im not sure why there shouldnt be

[stone delta]

I don;t think fluids can slosh in the veritical direction if they oppose gravity.

[oblique hollow]

i think vertical junctions have some priority rule to them though where they are supposed to prioritize moving fluid out of them, while deprioritizing accepting fluid

[oblique hollow]

they definitely can, head lift is not very strict

[stone delta]

Or I guess another way of putting it, is if fluids could slosh in the veritcal direction, then VIP circuits would no longer work/

[oblique hollow]

all thats needed is that there is space in pipes.
which is practically always the case, because "full" pipes have 40% extra hidden volume

[stone delta]

yes, but this doenst address the VIP situation

[oblique hollow]

VIP junctions are black magic and i will not answer any questions about them

[pastel obsidian]

You guys are making me think about how gravity would impact fluids

[civic bronze]

well it takes "0.9375 turbo fuel and then nothing for 8 seconds" in the screenshot

[stone delta]

I guess that is my point. If its black magic, then it needs to be investagated and more contributations are necessary for your document which is what I am volunteering to do.

[oblique hollow]

you mean... how it is already

[wind spade]

that's not how fuel gens work though

they take 1 fuel over time

[oblique hollow]

it takes 1m³ every x seconds and then nothing

1 m³ is the minimum / default amount of fluid for fuel generators to consume

all that varies is the time

which is given by the energy of the fuel divided by the power the generator wants to make

[civic bronze]

then i guess 8 seconds is just rounded up in the ui

still, how is that not a cycle i really dont get it lmao

[pastel obsidian]

More so if I had a pipe that was sloped downward by a small amount if it would eliminate sloshing, something like .25 m or smaller

[oblique hollow]

its not rounded

it takes 8 seconds

a minute is 60 seconds

how many times, in 60 seconds, can you count up to 8 seconds?

[civic bronze]

7.5

[oblique hollow]

still not.

you all completely overestimate how strong the force of gravity is and how head lift works

[oblique hollow]

congrats, that is the answer

[wind spade]

7.5 is per minute consumption of the fuel gen

[oblique hollow]

7.5 times in 60 seconds

7.5 times per 60 seconds = 7.5 times per minute
so it sips 1 m³ of fluid 7.5 times per minute

[civic bronze]

🫡

[oblique hollow]

and as for the original question:
gens dont have cycle time in the sense that it is calculated

gens have a set power demand, fuels have a set energy
the "cycle time" is calculated from the provided fuel energy

so yes, they have cycles, but they dont have a fixed time coded into them to consume the fuel

recipes DO have times coded into them

but generators dont use recipes and thus also dont use fixed cycle times

[civic bronze]

sounds like its just a quirk of not being able to consume less than 1 m3 of fluid

[oblique hollow]

To circle back to this:

the calculator makes a very stupid calculation where it expects a single generator to consume the 400m³/min
it expects a single generator to consume 1 m³ every 0.15 seconds
60 seconds / 0.15 seconds = 400 times per minute

[pastel obsidian]

That's why I'm curious about it

[oblique hollow]

you know how the recommendation is to build your pipe manfolds above your machines, not below?
aka avoid bottom feeding?

thats because bottom feeding manifolds simply struggle to have the needed head lift for each pipe sustained all the time

[civic bronze]

what about same level manifolds?

[oblique hollow]

1m head lift, which is practically free

pipes generate that on their own

i swear one of these days i will be forced to just record a 4 hour video where i just talk about pipes ingame

[restive sparrow]

So does anyone have any hints on how I can use this information to plan how much fuel/m I need?

[outer vale]

use basically any other source of info?

[oblique hollow]

its already written there

20 generators

consuming 400/min fuel

[restive sparrow]

Yes 20 generators. I don't know how much each uses

[pastel obsidian]

Make 400 fuel and pipe it to 20 fuel gens then go to sleep

[outer vale]

both the wiki and Tools can tell you the burn rate

[oblique hollow]

a generator uses 20/min by default

[outer vale]

as can the game itself

[oblique hollow]

20 x 20 = 400/min

thats the number it gave you below

[restive sparrow]

Ok the 400m3 number is there but I didn't know wtf it meant because it should read 400m3/m

units are important, people!

[oblique hollow]

blame the guy who made the calc.
or better: use a different calc

[civic bronze]

Told you

[restive sparrow]

Link a better calc?

[pastel obsidian]

Math hasn't been updated in a long time

[oblique hollow]

if only sf tools was finally updated

[pastel obsidian]

We could send you to uni

[civic bronze]

I've heard theres gonna be new sftools @wind spade 👀

[outer vale]

every ping adds another 3 months to the eta

[pastel obsidian]

And a feature removed

[wind spade]

at this point we're at -75 features

[outer vale]

oof, too much more and it'll end up as a Modeler clone

[pastel obsidian]

Each tool approaches the problem differently, competition drives innovation

[civic bronze]

thanks to this i just cleared up 21 nodes on GF and got 8 somersloops from my factories

[dreamy nimbus]

60/8 = 7.5

cmon it's maths

[oblique hollow]

not everyone knows how to calculate a recipe cycle in cylces / min

[civic bronze]

yup

[dreamy nimbus]

you make it sound difficult but it really comes down to calculate :

How many 8 in 60 which is not difficult

[wintry yoke]

So. I have started to tear down all production’s. Already rebuilt the Concrete factory. I have completely Deleted steel and Other factories. Currently working on rubber and plastic with fuel so i can build a Massive Highway

What would i need to Priorities?

After Fuel plastic and rubber?

[pastel obsidian]

Computers?

Project assembly

[wintry yoke]

Not what i mean But okay ill have to rebuild a Iron farm and copper farm rq

And The other farms

[pastel obsidian]

What do you mean

[opaque quartz]

computers are a priority to automate after plastic

[wintry yoke]

Ive deleted All my factories so i can make them better.

What would i priorities?

[outer vale]

rebuilding them all

dunno why you tore them down, but you probably need everything you were making

[wintry yoke]

Not efficient, not made Enough steel to do anything Further in game and Nothing really is Highway worthy

[outer vale]

build more rather than tear down

or at least, if you're gonna tear down, build the new stuff first

[pastel obsidian]

Find one or two you wanna do better with each build and do it, aesthetics, belt work, logistics, recipes, layout or scale and do something better with each build

[wintry yoke]

All right i regret asking Question and getting answer and getting told i shouldnt do it, i always go to a creative world to build a better farm to make it easy to Build it in the Active world

[pastel obsidian]

Do it

[wintry yoke]

But Whats highest priority, and in mass production

[outer vale]

you'll probably just need to build your way up through the tiers again

[wind spade]

not deleting factories

build new, keep old

[pastel obsidian]

Let him do what he wants

[wintry yoke]

you guys dont understand

[wind spade]

they asked subjective question, got subjective answer 🤷
let me answer what I want

[wind spade]

what do we not understand? 🤔

[wintry yoke]

I pre-fur tearing everything down So i know where my space is. I had everything in one area and was difficult to get areas. Was trying to get Info like what is Priority Copper or Iron (i use mostly concrete so its cleared)

[wind spade]

priority is what you need. Which differs based on tons of factors

[outer vale]

In my eyes, the first thing to fix is that you no longer have a supply of building materials. Work out what resources you need to build with, build factories for them first. How you order that would be up to you, but since later stuff's gonna need earlier stuff, it'll probably just be building what you originally built again, in roughly the same order

if you disagree with that, then that means you do have an idea of the priority to build stuff in, so you don't need my opinion 😛

[wintry yoke]

i have a mass quantity of stuff so i can build thats why i did it, i Stock enough building materials to build again. I just need to know What Is highest priority. I already have a concrete farm and power running… ill need to upgrade that but thats later date only working on 3,000mw

[opaque quartz]

we've answered this multiple times

you need to work your way back up the tiers, starting with the most basic materials

iron plates, rods, RIP, motors, etc etc etc....

basically like starting the game over again

[outer vale]

ultimately you're asking us "what do I need to do whatever I want to do", the answer is "we're not you, we don't know". But since you're effectively starting from scratch, following the same progression seems a logical route

and it's not like we can speak from experience because it's not a thing we'd do 😅

[dreamy nimbus]

how long till a plutonium fuel rod gets actually consumed by a drone ?

on average

[opaque quartz]

Depends on travel distance, but in my experience it’s like .1 rods per round trip

[pastel obsidian]

After you finish the game there is no priority aside from getting tickets, if you are looking for a challenge maybe try another game or an overhaul mod.

[civic bronze]

the priority: factory must grow

[pastel obsidian]

Try out space age while you wait for 1.1 to release

I was responding to tree

Just seems like they have run out of things to do in the game

[viral sparrow]

they havent finished the game based on what ive read

[civic bronze]

Its not a topic for here but are there any overhaul mods? Scrolling through manager i can't recall any

[viral sparrow]

there are no parts to prioritise

build what you need when you need them

[crimson moat]

I had a quick jump into the math of MASSAGE-2(A-B)b, and with the numbers i'm getting it's impossible to have a synchronous orbit (1hr rotational period) for a space elevator unless the density of the planet is around double that of earth - otherwise the planet must rotate faster than anything can orbit, which would wreck anything attached to the ground. Is that correct / have peeps talked about it before?

[wintry yoke]

Oh i thought you where telling me to just restart my game from ground 0 i misunderstood that

[dreamy nimbus]

longest trip with drones, 7.4km ish, took like 17 ionised packaged fuel

let's round it to 18 to be safe, that's 180000MJ

[opaque quartz]

I mean, that’s effectively what you’ve done here, just with the tiers already unlocked and some stockpiles of resources. So I would suggest following the games progression again

[wintry yoke]

Alrighty, im sorry for getting Angry, i just didn’t understand

[opaque quartz]

All good

[upbeat summit]

ok so this is my current piping from fuel produced to fuel gens, so the thing is
middle pipe is 40m3/min fuel
so it should branch of to 20 and 20 right?
but the game tells me 19 and 19, any reason??

[opaque quartz]

Where are you seeing 19?

[upbeat summit]

and 40 in the main pipe

maths isn't mathing here, i'm being scammed of 2 L of fuel lmao

[opaque quartz]

Your pipes need to be full. Put the generators on standby until all pipes and generator buffers are full

[upbeat summit]

ohhk

still kinda weird that this is happening

[opaque quartz]

Keep in mind that flow rate is just an average. It will fluctuate, especially if the pipes aren’t full

[oblique hollow]

the game also does rounding

in the display

it could be 20, but only showing 19

[upbeat summit]

oh ok , makes sense now

still i think i'll fill the pipes first since the fuel in generators literally touches 0 and then goes 1 xD

[oblique hollow]

the pipe content determines how fast a flat pipe flows

at 0.5 out of 8m³ content, its about 18.75 m³/min
but the 0.5 could be 0.54 or 0.52 or whatever

again, rounding, the game wont show you precisely

[upbeat summit]

ok

[opaque quartz]

Full Pipes Are Happy Pipes ™️

[civic bronze]

The man saving another pipe network 🙏

[fierce ruin]

using the impure node at 250% located at the lower right of the world

done. easy. i love oil!

[opal locust]

watching a video on a diluted fuel power plant. Is something like this still necessary?

[silent charm]

idk why that looks like a bigger sized version of MK2 fluid pump 😂 but to answer ur question, idk 😦

[outer vale]

no, buffers tend to hinder more than they help

[wind spade]

never was

[opal locust]

video said it was a flow compensator

[wind spade]

yeah, never was necessary

and tbh I wouldn't trust anything with a buffer

[civic bronze]

and a valve

[outer vale]

double whammy of "these probably don't do anything useful"

the main time you'd use fluid buffers are for trains, the equivalent of the storage crates we talked about yesterday

[opal locust]

So for the fuel output when feeding it to generators, I should just create a simple loop so the fuel comes in from both sides?

[opaque quartz]

Yep

[outer vale]

I'd say only time but somebody might come in with an actual use I've forgotten

[civic bronze]

um so im thinking about something, 3x sloppy alumina rafineries at 100%, 3x aluminum scrap rafineries at 100% (but two of them slooped x2) - this system would require 600 water and consume 600 water will this work lol?

[outer vale]

if your numbers are right, sure

usual caveats around dealing with 600/min in pipes, maybe you can separate it in some nice way

[opaque quartz]

You’ll have to prime the system with water first and then disconnect it once full

[civic bronze]

yeah i'd probably do separate pipes

[opaque quartz]

This is generally a good idea. Put some of the generators in standby which will allow the pipes and generator buffers to fill up. Once that’s done you can turn the rest back on. Full pipes are happy pipes

[civic bronze]

tbh its short manifold, leveled pipes should work at 600/min if i prime them, come on, im gonna give it a try

[opaque quartz]

Follow your bliss

[hearty flower]

I've run into problems just due to the "bursty" nature of some recipes, remember they don't produce/consume ingredients constantly, they instantly happen at the cycle time so high consumption recipes will have temporary "bursts" of consumption

[civic bronze]

What is the issue with it?

[oblique hollow]

this is a flow compensator - it is purely for aesthetics / neatness.
it turns pipe flow smoother. Pumps on the input and output pipe are recommended

smooth flow doesnt matter much as it is instantly ruined again the moment it gets split or encounters a vertical incline

[hearty flower]

If all the producers and consumers don't sync up well, sometimes the pipes start to not be full anymore and thus don't carry the full capacity

[oblique hollow]

and it doesnt help if the pipe is at max flow either

[oblique hollow]

care for some specific examples?

[hearty flower]

Machines have their own small buffers so it's less an issue when you have a lot of machines, but higher value recipes like sloppy aluminum at high clock speed will empty your pipes quickly

[oblique hollow]

If you dont like the bursty nature of some of these recipes, this is one of the rare moments where you can actually employ a valve on the output of a machine and then just set the valve close to - but not exactly to - the desired value

on machine inputs, i wouldnt really do this

there, it is best to just use the lowest possible pipe mk

recipe uses 200/min water? use mk 1 pipe for that machine

if it uses more than 300, you likely need multiple dedicated pipes anyway

sloppy at normal or 150% OC is perfectly fine with mk 1 pipes

but if you go above, you are better of just having one water pipe per refinery

manifolds with multiple inputs arent even worth it if you have multiple machines that consume like 300/min water because the network will be in such high flux that you cannot 100% guarantee that the fluid level will be neat

on the other hand, a single mk 2 pipe carrying 600 going into 2 refineries using 300/min water, with mk 1 pipes on the splits, is something ive tested and its perfectly fine

But for anything else that isnt a neat ratio - subdivide it into the smallest possible pipe network size per machine that you can do

To switch to the other end - the output of sloppy: same applies.
keep the network size low. dont try to max out mk 2 pipes.

Its the same concept as the 3:8 coal gen setup, but high tier. Sloppy tends to have good, simple ratios with the scrap recipes anyway

my goto recommendation is of course this

small networks can usually deal well with moderately high inputs like 720/min alumina total across 4 inputs and 4 outputs

[hearty flower]

It's more that I wouldn't trust a manifold with a single mk2 pipe input at 600/min because sometimes the rate will need to temporarily exceed 600 and sometimes goes under 600. Two pipes feeding the manifold fix that easily

[oblique hollow]

for 600/min input via a single pipe, you need to take special care. Thats always the case.
the first junction that splits this flow should ideally never have to fight with any kind of backflow.

usually, thats done via a loop or just a normal 50/50 or 3-way split which you then inject at multiple points into the pipe manifold

[fierce ruin]

what is that top right one?

[oblique hollow]

sloppy solution and normal scrap, as it says

[fierce ruin]

yeah but what's going on in it?

theres only 1 being inputted with 200/min water

OH I SEE

[oblique hollow]

the rest is recycled water - like all others

[civic bronze]

600 bauxite > 1800 scrap > 900 ingots

[prime forum]

Is there a way to calculate (in something similar to SCIM) how to build stuff WITHOUT using 0.39 Miners or 2.5 Constructors

[outer vale]

change the outputs until you get all integers?

as soon as you start mixing things with very different output rates, it gets much harder to find a setup that'd match that constraint though

[wind spade]

clock the machines 🙂

[prime forum]

That’s unlocked in the MAM right?

For power slugs

[wind spade]

yeah, and is one of most useful things for building factories

don't even need to use shards, underclocking also works

[prime forum]

What does it cost to unlock (if you know)

[wind spade]

some slugs afaik

[prime forum]

K

So I gotta relocate like 2km away somewhere with a lot of iron and coal, then unlock over/underclocking and build a huge factory

[fierce ruin]

what is it producing?

[wind spade]

why relocate? just build another factory there

[prime forum]

So then I’ll just dismantle my existing one

[wind spade]

why? keep it

[prime forum]

I don’t have space, better to just dismantle and rebuild in the same spot. Also, I’ve tapped all the nearby iron nodes (they are right next to the factory)

[wind spade]

space is infinite, build elsewhere

[civic bronze]

To unlock overclocking you will also need to find cool purple ore

[wind spade]

dismantling just gets rid of production, which is counterproductive

[civic bronze]

It kinda looks yummy

[prime forum]

I think I found one already

But it’s not in my scanner

It’s quartz right?

[civic bronze]

Noo quartz is more like pink

[prime forum]

Oh

Are overclocking and underclocking separate unlocks or no?

[civic bronze]

If you find purple, mine it with hand

[fierce ruin]

no

[thorn trail]

what is this about unlocking overclocking requiring something purple?

Or are you talking about production amplification?

[civic bronze]

Ohhh yeah F*

@prime forum my bad you dont need purple ore to unlock overclocking, i was wrong

[proven pawn]

Isnt it called

||SAM ore||

[civic bronze]

Yeah i just dont want to spoil it for him

[proven pawn]

Story got a lot more interesting with the addition of alien ADA

[opaque quartz]

No, only requires two blue slugs. Edit: scrolled back, sorry

[dreamy nimbus]

SAM鉱石

since Iron ore is 鉄鉱石 ;
鉄 (tetsu) iron
鉱石 (kouseki) ore, mineral

I guess that SAM ore is SAM鉱石

[jagged warren]

is a water extractor design like this safe for making 2 pipes of 300 m3/min, or can sloshing be a problem?

those white squares being water extractors at 100%

[pastel obsidian]

save yourself some trouble and OC 2 of them to 250

[vapid gorge]

it could work, but keeping it in groups of 3:8 is simpler, and simpler with pipes is generally more reliable and less fiddly

[jagged warren]

i tend to fill them to 270 for coal power, i just wanted to know if it would be safe to do it this way though

[vapid gorge]

possibly 😄 hence the warning

fresh water pipes tend to not be as fragile as other systems. I wouldn't do this as a secondary one. Honestly I'd just make 2 independent 300s with some over clocking

[wind spade]

@restive sparrow pick any that you want. There's no bad choice ever, all alts are useful in some situations

you can get them all anyway, so if you don't know, flip a coin or keep it for later

[opal locust]

why is this random spot in the middle of the ocean not deep enough for a water extractor?

[vapid gorge]

it's because the pioneer lives in a simulation and this is where the holodeck starts breaking down

[opal locust]

there's no indication on the map of water depth difference

[vapid gorge]

there is not, no

[outer vale]

what if you remove some of the foundations, or put an extractor somewhere nearby that does fit and ctrl snap one where you want it?

I can't see exactly where you're trying to place it, but I'm flying around that rough area aiming an extractor at the water and not seeing any complaints

[opal locust]

It's just some random spot in the ocean not deep enough for extractors

-2540, 1320 if you want to check the coordinates in game

It should be deep enough considering I can go that far vertically down.

[outer vale]

yeah I'm not having any issues, odd

might be the foundations maybe

[echo spire]

Hey guys, just looking for some train help

[pastel obsidian]

whats up

[echo spire]

I'm inputting 900 uranium/min into my train, that's filling for 60secs, then heading to my uranium processing and unloading for 60secs

[dreamy nimbus]

just send the problem instead of asking if you can ask

[echo spire]

But the station wont unload the items in time

Is this solved by more platforms?

Or buffers

[dreamy nimbus]

you're missing uranium input on your factories ?

[pastel obsidian]

set it to wait till empty

and wait till full

[outer vale]

900/min with those delays is almost certainly gonna need more carriages

[dreamy nimbus]

also yeah

[pastel obsidian]

you should have a buffer into a station on each side

[echo spire]

yeah the issue is that the platform wont empty the items in time

So more carriages

[dreamy nimbus]

more carriage to divide the items equally

if you're not using mk6 you should

[outer vale]

bear in mind that one carriage can hold 3200 uranium ore (32 stacks), so if you're trying to do 900/min in one carriage then that gives you 3200/900 = 3.55... minutes to do a full round trip. And you're burning 2 minutes just sitting there

[vapid gorge]

how many platforms are you using for 900 uranium and how long is the trip? how fast are your belts?

[dreamy nimbus]

if you can't, divide by splitting the input into different train carriages

then put the highest speed belt on the output of your next station and hope it will work

If not, either too slow belt or need more carriages again

could even split the station in two and add another train

[echo spire]

I'm using mk5 belts, I havent unlocked mk 6 yet

I'll check if it's backing up at my input station

[outer vale]

you can work out the max throughput of a carriage as stackSize * 32 / roundTripTime

[dreamy nimbus]

how do you get roundtriptime, don't tell me you get a timer

[outer vale]

get your stopwatch out

[dreamy nimbus]

ffs

[echo spire]

That does not satis my factory

[pastel obsidian]

or you can tell by your unloading station being empty and loading station being full

[outer vale]

that just tells you if you're exceeding it, but doesn't help work out how much you need to adjust

[echo spire]

If only train in/output stack ui was as good as drones

[outer vale]

if you time it and find "okay my full round trip time including loads is 8 minutes, that means I can do 4 stacks/minute. I'm trying to do 9, so I'll need 3 carriages"

[pastel obsidian]

Yes

[echo spire]

Ok I think I've got it

an extra carriage has fixed? it

[pastel obsidian]

well 2 extra (3 in total)

depends on how long the trip lenth is

[outer vale]

doing the math'll be easier than guessing

[pastel obsidian]

in this case trip length / 3.5 minutes (Rounded Up ) = carriages

[opal locust]

Is this a good looped setup for fuel generators?

[outer vale]

the left-hand pipe doesn't really add anything

not sure if it'd actively harm it, but "keep pipes simple" comes to mind

[opal locust]

It's more for symmetry and aesthetics since the setup runs on this 8 wide grid

[outer vale]

it's probably fine, I assume you're not close to 600/min in those pipes

at best you'd be, what, 400

[opal locust]

600 oil split 4 times so 150 oil > 200 hor > 400 fuel > into 8 overclocked generators

[outer vale]

yeah you probably won't hit any issues with that 3fold loop

but if you do, tossing one of the redundant loops would be the first thing to try

[opal locust]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuStUisc9eg this is the video I took the design from. The number of generators is higher because this was made during early access, but the total fuel is still the same.

I just threw out the fluid buffers and kept things more direct.

[quartz pasture]

I'm having issues with my turbofuel pipelines. My fuel generator should all be flowing perfectly at 7.5m^3 of turbofuel, but they keep going offline briefly

It makes no sense.

[outer vale]

pushing close to the pipe limits? or just not letting the pipes and gens fill up

[quartz pasture]

I set a valve before every fuel gen for 7.5

[outer vale]

ah that's probably your issue

either take the valves off, or at least set them a tad higher

[quartz pasture]

how? input flow needs to be greater than or equal to output flow, with outputs covered by valves

[outer vale]

valves generally don't help much

and whats probably biting you here is that they can't be set to every value between 0 and 600

so your 7.5 is probably a tad less

[vapid gorge]

you know what sets teh flow to those pipes to 7.5? the machines that use 7.5

valves, in any reliable set up, at best do nothing, at worst cause issues

[quartz pasture]

that's so weird. I fixed a different setup with valves

[vapid gorge]

correlation vs causation

pipes don't get immediately fixed by any one thing, they take time to stabalise ect
and altering other pipe sections while doing X thing will often be the thing

have people created systems in which valves do a weird thing and it can work? sure. Are they reliable? no

[echo spire]

Bruh now my train keeps getting stuck at docking

[quartz pasture]

perhaps the best bet is to install valves after the pipes saturate and an issue presents itself?

[vapid gorge]

@frigid summit blue pipe is fresh water, red pipe is the waste

[vapid gorge]

why? it still doesn't do anything

[quartz pasture]

Valves fixed a setup I had involving crude oil

I had a fuel factory with exactly 200 crude oil moving, and using valves made it perfectly flow all 200 to 10 reactors

[vapid gorge]

look, I cannot explain exactly how many people's fluid systems I've fixed. First step is always 'remove all buffers and valves'
And again correlation vs causation.
Half the time people go 'this buffer / valve fixed x!' it's because they didn't wait long enough. Or they also let the fluid system flood more, which flooding the system first is a very good step

[quartz pasture]

That's not what happened with the facility where valves fixed my issue

[vapid gorge]

I've given you information on their reliability, its up to you, good day

[quartz pasture]

The facility was running for hours, with the generators having inconsistent uptime

I went in, added valves where appropriate, and now it has 100% uptime

[pastel obsidian]

all machines produce and consume liquids pulses and on average it might use 7.5 but in reality it ranges form 0 to 15 as an example so sometimes it can work but other times it can cause a machine to choke.

[vapid gorge]

in a fully flooded system with valves, like they were describing, chances are it won't have any impact too. But it also doesn't do any good, so it's just adding in extra risk and thinking for no good

[quartz pasture]

I figured out the issue

[opaque quartz]

what was it?

[wintry jewel]

quick question. my friend and i started a co-op world and before he left he made a rule to not overclock anything permament unless it was a miner.
and i'm planning on a NPP that uses 6 NPP buildings (3 for uranium fuel rods, 2 for plutonium fuel rods, and 1 for Ficsonium fuel rods) and i was wondering if it's better to overclock the NPP buildings (minus the Ficsonium one) or not

[vapid gorge]

Makes no dif

[pastel obsidian]

Sounds like something you need to talk to your friend about

[wintry jewel]

i DMed him about it before joining the server, still waiting on a response

[vapid gorge]

all overclocking anything but non resource producers does is save space. Which you have infinite of.

now, is that useful for design and layout? can be extremely. But everyone builds dif so who knows if it's good for you

only you can really decide that.

a lot of people do find it convenient to OC npps though if that has any impact on your choices

[wintry jewel]

gonna be real, no clue what you mean by "OC npps"

[vapid gorge]

over clock, and you used npp in your own sentence

[wintry jewel]

the npps part i understood, just didnt know what you meant by OC. thx

[vapid gorge]

I oc most of my stuff because I build big in the first place and I don't want stuff sprawling all over

and you have infinite shards so why not?

[wintry jewel]

good point. thx for the help mate

[vapid gorge]

no stress 🙂

[opal locust]

feels good to upgrade the power grid

[civic bronze]

what would be good location for this?

oops forgot wet concrete lol need spot with 2210 stone now

i guess its a lot easier now nvm 🤦‍♂️

[proven pawn]

4200 screws😭

[civic bronze]

it all gets used in modular frame, i just separated the two for easier control in the planner

im thinking im gonna go rocky desert with it

[vapid gorge]

SCIM. SCIM would be a good locations 😛

those 3 resources are often near each othe

[civic bronze]

yeah, just i thought i needed 4100 stone but forgot wet concrete 🫣

[vapid gorge]

I recommend wet concrete

[civic bronze]

umm

its stone here, found it only because of the radar tower

[opaque pebble]

yeah, it's weird

I had to spam the resource locator just to make sure the node was there

[frosty owl]

It does look very much like stone

[opaque pebble]

rocks and stones

[zealous coral]

Wet concrete is very good, however i usually create mix of this and standard recipe, there is a lot of concrete on the map, and implementing water into production where you need few k of it per minute is problematic

[vapid gorge]

Water is super common and it halves your limestone needs if you plan around it

[zealous coral]

thats true, but if i need 5k of concrete then i would need 7k of water per minute, It is enought that u got over 100 water extractors for nuclear plants, it is just unnesesery to add another 25 for concrete

[pastel obsidian]

Imagine ordering steel beams and getting aluminum beams and the sales guy telling you they are the same thing

[zealous coral]

especially if you can place multiple constructors just with blueprint one over another (what is much less effective and problematic with refinery)

[civic bronze]

Theres no aluminium in SF tho, theres Aluminum edit: nvm learned both are fine

[vapid gorge]

OC them. Only need 30 or so. And if you need that much limestone you’re prepped for a big system

[civic bronze]

Yeah 5k concrete is already crazy

[pastel obsidian]

Runner concrete gets you more per min, and is made in an assembler, it's worth a look at that scale

[zealous coral]

Big, i don't know. I plan 9 Balistic warp drives 24 AI Expansion Servers and 60 Biochemical Sculptor

and for that i need 5100 Concrete

this is my concrete factory

the tower goes 11 flors up

170 meters high

[harsh schooner]

what the max storage containers you can fit into a mk3 blueprint?

64?

[civic bronze]

These rafineries kinda look like villagers from minecraft but with big heads xd

The council of the concrete factory will decide your fate

[smoky aurora]

middle mouse button removes UI 😉

except this ,.. it´s looking nice

[wind spade]

@stable pawn pick any that you need, you can get all recipes anyway. If you don't know, flip a coin or keep it for later. all recipes are useful in some situations

[zealous coral]

THX

[zealous coral]

Both 🙂

[wind spade]

?

[zealous coral]

which one first depends on your overall factory planning

[wind spade]

I'm not the one who posted that

and I said the same thing above

[zealous coral]

🙂 sorry

[crimson moat]

@oblique hollow continuing

If a machine requires 200 water, inputs 100 and outputs 50, then looping the output in on itself will cause it to run at 100% efficiency.

It uses 100 fresh and 50 waste water to make 200 water, because of the geometric series of 0.5. The waste water isn't 50, essentially. It's 50+25+12.5+6.25+...

If it was linear, 100 fresh + 50 waste water would only allow a 200 water machine to run 75% of the time.

I've tested this, i am absolutely sure that it's correct and that's how it functions in game.

Furthermore, if it outputs 51, then looping can deadlock systems.

[oblique hollow]

i dont get the "requirea at 200, inputs 100 and outputs 50"

[vapid gorge]

describe this as calculus. I dare you
"if you need 540 total water for a bauxite process and get 180 returned you only need 360 fresh. That's it."

that's an incomplete process then as you're only giving it 150 instead of 200

[oblique hollow]

turning 200 into 50
but you supply 100
is that it?

[crimson moat]

sec

[wind spade]

the problem is that you're mixing "items" with "items/min" here

[oblique hollow]

We have a few recipes that output amd accept fluid in the same machine, so. we can test this stuff easily

[crimson moat]

doesn't matter, cycle time is arbitrary

[oblique hollow]

Aluminum is not one of those really. Its 2 recipes

[wind spade]

yeah, but the answer is different based on whether you talk about items or items/min

[crimson moat]

I have fifty aluminum modules which would starve if the geometric sum didn't work.

and it also applies to some rocket fuel recipies and i'm sure others

[vapid gorge]

you can overcomplicate just about anything in reality - that doesn't mean you have to

[oblique hollow]

Rocket fuel is a bit more complex, i'll give you that

[wind spade]

if a machine needs 200/min, you have 100/min fresh input and 50/min fresh output, you will never get to 200/min input to the machine

but if you're talking about just "items", yes, the machine will eventually get 200 water as input

[oblique hollow]

But first:

200 in, 50 out, but i supply only 100

Correct?

[crimson moat]

triple checking numbers cause i am not using the actual ingame recipe to try to make it easier

[oblique hollow]

its a hypothetical im fine with that

[crimson moat]

Needs 200 to run
100 fresh input
outputs 50% of input

Alright, if you loop this around it runs 100% of the time, not 75% of the time.

If you add the 100 fresh and the 50 waste from that fresh, you get 150, which predicts a 75% uptime.

In reality you get 100 fresh plus the geometric sum of 0.5, which adds up to 200 and makes it run 100% of the time (really 99.9999%)

i have confirmed beyond all doubt that the game processes feedback loops like alumina waste water and rocket fuel in this way, and you do get the 100%, not the 75%. Half of my world runs on this.

Tools also predicts this accurately using recursion / geometric sum.

[wind spade]

oh yeah, this works like you said, but before you didn't mention the 50 is 50%

[crimson moat]

Yeah that was a mistake on my part in the explanation

this should clear it up 100%

[wind spade]

I assumed it's 50/min, which would never work (as you get max production of 150/min, so 200/min demand is not sustainable)

[crimson moat]

it's a simple proof that when you sum fresh plus waste additively, you get the wrong answer. You need the geometric sum to predict or model accurately when a machine consumes something that it outputs.

[wind spade]

Tools also predicts this accurately using recursion / geometric sum.
it's actually not using either of those 😛

[crimson moat]

Some form of the same math, whatever it is

[wind spade]

linear programming 🙂

solving the whole thing at once as optimisation problem

[crimson moat]

you're calculating a geometric sum

[outer vale]

no

[crimson moat]

for these systems

[outer vale]

told you 😛

it's just not needed. It can be done that way, but it's more complicated than the common way

[oblique hollow]

50% of input?

Ok, i did the math with 25% but still, its fine

Conceptually you can tackle this recipe like this:

200 in, 50 out at 100%
we subtract 50 from 200 because thats a guaranteed output anyway.

The recipe thus uses 150 water at 100%

We only have 100 water

100 / 150 = 0.66666

clock the recipe to 66.6666%

Or if you dont clock it, it will settle at 66.666% efficiency

[crimson moat]

Ok, i did the math with 25% but still, its fine
It's not fine, completely changes the result. The ratio of input to output is a critical variable, and the hypothetical that i gave was specifically tuned for 0.5

[oblique hollow]

then i will do it with 50% too

[wind spade]

the thing is, you don't need any geometric sum

you just work at the assumption that the machine works at 100% efficiency, hence outputting 100/min. And because it needs 200/min input, you need to provide 100/min fresh

[outer vale]

this has been explained many times

[oblique hollow]

200 in, 100 out at 100%

subtract 100 from 200, 100 total demand

we only have 100 water > checks out

Recipe runs at 100% according to math.

In practice, it will run in a loop and slowly approach 100% uptime

The true question now is if you need calculus to understand that the machine will reach 100% uptime or if you just trust the simple math and trust that it just works

To verify that it will work this way, you would probably need calculus.

Same way you would need to to that to verify that a 1:6 splitter with 1 belt looped back is in fact a 1:5 splitter

[crimson moat]

My module consumes 300/min, has a fresh input of 90 and a waste water output of 63.

It runs at 100% efficiency and has done for 200 hours.

Your Tools predicts accurately that it only needs 90 input water, even though 90+63 is less than 300.

[outer vale]

Just treat it as one big recipe.
With 2 Solution refineries and 1 Scrap refinery at default clocks, you get

• 180 x 2 = 360 water into Solution
• 120 water out from Scrap
  So the recipe overall needs 360 - 120 = 240 water input

[crimson moat]

200 in, 100 out at 100%

subtract 100 from 200, 100 total demand

we only have 100 water > checks out

Recipe runs at 100% according to math.

That works perfectly and simply, so that's great.

I think where the issue happens is people calculating the other way, and you do need calculus to go that way.

[wind spade]

To verify that it will work, you would probably need calculus.
you wouldn't, since you can just say "the freshwater input will run until machine is full, which then starts producing at 100% efficiency, reaching the equilibrium"

[outer vale]

does anybody calculate the other way?

[oblique hollow]

calculating stuff based on water that you have and want to consume is indeed the tricky part

[outer vale]

this sounds like what I described earlier

you "need" the geometric stuff if you're trying to solve forward from water input.
"I have x water, that'd make this much solution, but that then makes more water, which I can use to make more solution, which then makes more water, ..."
But if you're solving based on a target amount, you don't, because you just get "I am making x aluminium, this requires x water but I'm getting y back as byproduct, so I just need x - y fresh

[crimson moat]

Sure, if you say for example that making 2000 rocket fuel gives us X compacted coal and you want to know how much extra rocket fuel you can make with a compacted coal loop.

I guess you guys have been doing it backwards by just guessing total rocket fuel numbers until it lines up with the amount of compacted coal you have?

If you want to go from "I have A and B, want C" then you derive C with calculus

otherwise you have to guess different values of C until your guess is close to reality

[oblique hollow]

But thats the wrong way to tackle aluminum imo

[outer vale]

yeah, that's what I mean by solving forward

[oblique hollow]

Backward solving is the better approach most of the time because it tends to converge, not diverge, across all recipe trees

[outer vale]

or you just work out "well 100 Rocket Fuel would cost 10 Compacted Coal, I have 69 Compacted Coal so I could make 690 Rocket Fuel"
numbers made up obviously

[crimson moat]

Fair, it does seem simpler.

[outer vale]

in the same way that with aluminium "well 360 scrap requires 240 net water, I want 1800 scrap so that's 1200 water"

[crimson moat]

The only part i then have issue is with people saying e.g. "i have 100 water input and machine requires 200, therefore its 50 waste won't be enough to run it"

that's an incorrect forward calculation, as it's assumed to be linear when it's actually a geometric series where the waste water runs through the system more than once on average.

[oblique hollow]

You need calculus for the harder diverging approach and dont need it for the simpler convering approach.

Surprise!

[vapid gorge]

And thus, dealing with waste water doesn't need calculus.... right?

[wind spade]

unless you start to heavily reuse byproducts and produce multiple things, at which point you kinda have to do linear programming or something like that (or use a fancy Tool to do that for you)

[oblique hollow]

Forward math is indeed hard.

Buuuut, you can use a similar approach to what i just said.

Analyze the recipe

Calculate total demand at 100%

Then check how much you have/ want to use

divide what you have by what the net demand is and you get the clock rate

In theory at least....

[outer vale]

yup, just make one "module"/effective recipe that takes some input and spits out output (like^) then scale that to your requirements. Whether that's input or output, doesn't matter since it's just a recipe

[crimson moat]

@oblique hollow

Yeah, that seems good. You do have to intentionally do it, and it is difficult to apply sometimes. Like for example i built 2560 rocket fuel without utilising compacted coal recycling, and all of my inputs are now locked and static.

If i recycle the coal, how much more rocket fuel can i make?

To answer that you either have to calculate it forward, in which case calculus is the method and gives you an exact answer in one step, or you have to guess at rocket fuel values for backwards calculation. Like try 3000, 3500, what uses more than my input? Oh, 3500 is only a little more, i'l try 3450, etc. That's a weird and fiddly process of trying 10 different values to hone-in on the reality which only happens because of a lack of application of the appropriate math.

In some cases i think it also behaves more predictably with forward calculation, like a 0.5 output factor will double your product, a 1.0 will sustain it forever and anything over 1 will exponentially grow it. Sloops mess with those numbers a lot and it can be difficult to predict or understand how your production chain is changing with a different number if you're calculating backwards.

For example with a certain recipe, slooping two stages doesn't give 4x output, but actually gives 10x due to improving the ratio of output to input. There may be even greater differences that i didn't math yet.

On others, slooping puts the ratio above 1, therefore infinitely generates resources or sustains itself with no input. How do you calculate backwards that a refinery is giving you 140% of the water that you put in? It's consuming -40 water or something 😛 That's a little confusing too.

[outer vale]

How do you calculate backwards that a refinery is giving you 140% of the water that you put in?
same way as any other recipe. You have an effective recipe of 100 water in, 140 water out (or whatever other rate, it's all ratios so specific numbers don't matter) -> net 40 out

no different to anything that spits out byproduct. Or heck, anything that produces anything, whole point of a factory is to get more of something out than you supply

[oblique hollow]

For rocket fuel, i did put the math on the wiki page

I think i arrived at that without any calculus too

However, the numbers are utterly horrible. Only rocket fuel + turbo heavy fuel have neat numbers

[lilac dagger]

Hello..i need to know something about pipelines. If i have 3 000 m3/min turbofuel for my fuel powered generators and i will overclock them on 200%...how many generators i can handle with one pipe? Bcs in my math 3000/15 = 200 generators and one pipeline 600/15 = 40 generators. Is that correct or im just dumb?

[oblique hollow]

Turbofuel is consumed at 7.5/min by default
200% generators thus use 15/min

3000 / 15 = 200

However, its better if you dont use mk 2 pipes at 600

It can work, but its not worth it to make it work

[lilac dagger]

its better use mk2 for maybe dont know 500m3/min?

someone told me that mk2 are never full 600.

[tawdry blade]

What leads to these issues with throughput?

Seems like a thing I really need to know for my progression

[oblique hollow]

They can do 600/min, but theres a problem with the junctions that split it.

[frank snow]

From personal experience, PLEASE dont use 600 its caused me so many problems lol

[oblique hollow]

Basically, if one of the junctions has to split 600/min into uneven amounts (like 15/min on one side and 585 on the other side) then the smaller split causes issues

[frank snow]

the most I ever put in a pipe now is like 500

[oblique hollow]

If you wanna split 600/min up into machinesy you NEED to make an even split first.
either into 300/300 or 200/200/200

That gives you the greatest stability

Then you can use those other splits near machines

[crimson moat]

"If the target supply rate of freshly made Compacted Coal is known, simply multiply it by 24 / 19"

It's the "simply" part that i take issue with, especially when trying to generalise a solve for either another recipe or for any amount of sloops being introduced anywhere in the system. How did you figure out to multiply it by exactly 24/19 (aka 1.2632) without calculus? The geometric sum of the byproduct ratio is 0.2632 and that's not an accident, it's been calculated here.

and 1.2632 is 1 plus that, as you have "1x" of the main product.

you may have taken a roundabout route to basically do calculus without doing calculus by adding a bunch of simpler steps together in a way that isn't explained on the page

[oblique hollow]

i can try to explain the process a bit later

[lilac dagger]

ok

[lilac dagger]

alright

[storm imp]

Hmm curious, when splitting into smaller units, like 15/min as your example, would that then be changed if you used a Valve instead?

Or would you still face issues when doing so

Like this example

[crimson moat]

Valves don't work here because the feed pipe goes left into the new pipe which is before the valve, then flows back, which consumes the flow rate two or more times.

[civic bronze]

maybe if you could attatch a valve into the junction itself, but as it cannot be done and still leaves a short pipe no matter how close it is

[crimson moat]

if you could directly valve a junction then it would work yeah

but you can only connect like pipe valve pipe junction pipe

and the pipe junction pipe bit ruins everything

[civic bronze]

yeah that's the part about pipes i wonder why devs didn't do it this way

[crimson moat]

There are two main ways to deal with that backflow problem: Either split the pipe into more even segments with 1:2 or 1:3 splitters and then directly feed those, or split the pipe into even segments and then manifold those - relying on the fact that you're only using say 200/600 of the pipe's flow rate, so backflow is tolerable to a degree.

a flat junction will split fluid equally in every direction, and it will self balance perfectly (if destination A is more full than B and C, then fluid will preferentially go to B and C until they're exactly equally full)

it's when you try to force it to split say 15 to one side and 585 keep going forward, that is a problem. It tries to do 300 each way and the fluid on the full side keeps flowing back because it can't go forward, and builds up.

[storm imp]

Assuming a Pump at the entrance would still screw things over

[crimson moat]

yeah, a pump is just a valve that also sets headlift to +0m (unpowered) or +xM (powered).

headlift does not affect flow rate unless you don't have enough of it, and you should have enough planned into your design.

it's a weird omission that we can't valve junctions or pipeline supports and it creates some unintuitive and awkward emergent behavior.

[storm imp]

Guess its because I'm thinking off the VIP Junction - where its suggested to use a Pump

[crimson moat]

Ah, there may be additional complication when using different, competing liquid sources where you preferentially want to consume one instead of the other - it's honestly not well understood and best advised to just not do that

If you are doing something like "fuel goes in at one end, fuel is consumed at the other end" that's a much simpler problem

[storm imp]

Maybe a project for them cleaver tool creators - to make a Liquid simulator website :D

[crimson moat]

and still causes more than its fair share of headaches. A lot of the variables behave in ways which are unintuitive or poorly predictable, and there are problems like a pipe which looks the same (but is actually built slightly differently) can flow differently.

[storm imp]

Would say normally when handling a larger amount of Liquid, I usually use the gravity as my force for the liquid.. Example by using Water Tower princip

[crimson moat]

Like if a pipe section is a pair of 5m3+5m3 pipes, or a single 7m3 pipe (this happens because the game always rounds up capacity to 5m3) then that can flow or backflow differently while being visually identical. Some people build the same thing in different steps, and get different results because of this

[crimson moat]

Yeah, flowing downhill is one of the easiest and most powerful ways to enforce a flow direction

liquid will always flow downhill first and will never flow uphill unless it has no other choice

[storm imp]

But would say majority of my liquid issues, as usually been that machines connected have not been correctly adjusted in terms of clock speed ect.

Which ends up with the liquid being stuck - and here in this case it was the return water in the Aluminum setup :)

[crimson moat]

looping waste back into production of the same machine/s is a whole rabbit hole as well

[storm imp]

Yeah but still - in my opinion - manageable.. As long as you make sure everything runs tight, and at correct input/output ratio

[fierce ruin]

what?? i thought you needed plutonium or something

[frank snow]

Nah nuclear pasta is pretty easy u just need a crazy amount of copper then the cubes

[oblique hollow]

I had some theories about that. Answer is yesnt

As in "sometimes yes, sometimes no". Tests were inconclusive

[civic bronze]

Didnt make this yet, looks like loads of power too

[wind spade]

Nah, just a "keep pipes simple" banner

[fierce ruin]

this is like very late-game stuff

what

i didnt say that

[civic bronze]

Im gonna automate first phase 4 part tomorrow, maybe

Then ill have expand my power

I think it will take me like a month to reach phase 5 bruh

is there any real difference between these pumps placement? which way you do that 🔴 or 🔵 ?

[wind spade]

More headlift if higher on pipe

[alpine steeple]

Guys is it better to build the power generater thingy using somersloops or somersloop refineries to make morr fuel for power generaters (i make 12k mw pm)

[wind spade]

Depends

(And kMW doesn't exist, use GW)

[alpine steeple]

What on?

[oblique hollow]

ok, now i have time:
hope this helps

thats all there is to it.

this is comparable to doing aluminum math.
Scrap refinery needs X alumina and makes Y water
alumina refinery making X alumina needs Z water
Z - Y = fresh water needed

you can express the relation of fresh water needed vs total water demand as a fraction.

if you switch from normal turbofuel to turbo heavy, you can do the same trick and land on 5/6 as a fraction.

[crimson moat]

Yep, that's good thanks

it would be good to post this or something similar to explain how people can do the same for other recipies, or for slooping something that runs in a loop

[oblique hollow]

it would be the same procedure, just with the new numbers

[crimson moat]

ye

it is just not super clear without that explanation where the number came from, and thus how to get the new number

[oblique hollow]

if you sloop rocket fuel for example, it would be 14 / 24 with normal turbofuel

[oblique hollow]

i tried to explain that on the page with this sentence:

perhaps it is a bit misleading as it is "ratio of fresh compacted coal needed compared to the demand of the turbofuel refinery"

[crimson moat]

i think it's maybe just not that easy to explain something of that complexity with 1 sentence

[oblique hollow]

probably

i used to ultra suck at math and now i have to explain basic (= math i find basic by this point) to others.
Oh how the turntables....

[crimson moat]

Well thanks for your work 😄

[oblique hollow]

hope this now convinced you that you dont need to complete any calculus courses to play Satisfactory past tier 6 xd
(if you go about it smartly at least)

[crimson moat]

good to be familiar with what the right question is to ask, and what questions you can and cannot solve in certain ways

[oblique hollow]

yep. Ultimately, some people will probably be stumped by trying to solve a problem from one end because they dont see another way to tackle it.

and thats where a simple "why dont you just..." from others could kick them in the right direction

[civic bronze]

slooping loop recipe was pretty easy for me, maybe because i made the loop 1:1, tbh why would someone make it not 1:1 #math-and-meta message

[oblique hollow]

fun part about slooping aluminum production:
assuming you just sloop the scrap refineres, you always end up with excessive water when using sloppy alumina, while with default alumina you still need some fresh water, but much less

if you sloop both alumina and scrap, you are basically guaranteed excess water no matter what

oooone exception: instant scrap.
though if you sloop sulfuric acid refineries you probably will have excessive water too...

but that can i think be managed?

[wind spade]

How much the sloop gives you when slooping production vs how much it gives you when building with them

[civic bronze]

i dont have any excess water and dont need any fresh water, it makes 600 and consumes 600

[oblique hollow]

hmm actually, instant scrap shouldnt make any excess water

[oblique hollow]

did you sloop only some machines?

cause otherwise i dont see this working out really

[civic bronze]

i asked here too before making it

it works all rafineries at 100% just checked them now too

[oblique hollow]

ah i see

so just 2 slooped alumina refineries

yeah that works out

congrats, you rediscovered the 1:1 water loop of instant scrap 😂

though slooping instant would have better results actually

[civic bronze]

there's no sulfur anywhere near my setup lol

and imo it was a waste of sloops, like water is literally free, it was just a brain itch XD

[oblique hollow]

if water is free then using sloops is the waste because you could be using them to boost something expensive and squeeze more value out of it

[civic bronze]

Nah wait actually i got more aluminium ingots nvm

[harsh schooner]

what the max storage containers you can fit into a mk3 blueprint?

[fierce ruin]

no clue

[opaque quartz]

should be able to math it out. according to the wiki, the dimensions of the ISC are:
Width 5 m
Length 11 m
Height 4 m

plus you need space for belts, etc

[fierce ruin]

someone help me understand all this dawg (new to oil)

https://tenor.com/view/brain-brain-meme-big-brain-big-brain-meme-big-brain-time-gif-2441110471562975014

[opaque quartz]

what do you specifically need help understanding?

oil recipes are your introduction to byproducts

[fierce ruin]

how get that stuff and how the stuff can help me

[opaque quartz]

crude oil in -> rubber and heavy oil residue out. you have to do something with the HOR byproduct or your production will stop running

[fierce ruin]

alr where in the heavens and hell do i get rubber

[opaque quartz]

easiest option is to make another refinery that takes HOR in and makes petroleum coke, which can be sunk or burned in a coal generator

the recipe makes rubber

[fierce ruin]

yeah im lost lol

[opaque quartz]

it's like any other recipe in the game. the name of the recipe tells you what it makes

[fierce ruin]

what is this blue stuff

[civic bronze]

Snacks

[opaque quartz]

polymer resin

[fierce ruin]

where get that

[opaque quartz]

it's a byproduct of the fuel recipe

look at the icons, dawg

[fierce ruin]

simple terms pls 😭

[outer vale]

recipe make 2 things

[civic bronze]

I feel like bro is jaded xd

[opaque quartz]

refineries have two inputs and two outputs

[fierce ruin]

alr and where do i get the blue alien stuff into that hole

[opaque quartz]

some refinery recipes take two inputs. some refinery recipes create two outputs

[outer vale]

you know how some stuff you made earlier was 2 things in for 1 thing out?
these are the other way around

[outer vale]

look for the recipes that produce it

exactly the same as you've done for the rest of the game

[fierce ruin]

uhm

alr ill see

so all i need is oil?

[opaque quartz]

there are multiple options here for what you are trying to make

[fierce ruin]

i just wanna get it working bro

[opaque quartz]

what are you trying to make

[fierce ruin]

making something

[civic bronze]

Yeah it all starts from oil

[fierce ruin]

anything

[opaque quartz]

sigh

[fierce ruin]

rubber

[opaque quartz]

ok lets start with rubber

[fierce ruin]

for mk4

[opaque quartz]

oil -> refinery with rubber recipe. this makes rubber, and heavy oil residue as a byproduct

heavy oil residue -> another refinery with petroleum coke recipe

petroleum coke -> coal generator, or awesome sink

you need two refineries with two different recipes for the production chain

[fierce ruin]

😧

[outer vale]

same principle as how you made screws from rods from ingots

[civic bronze]

Look at what needs oil > make it > figure out what you made > figure out what you can make with it

[fierce ruin]

but i need poly

[civic bronze]

Wrong rubber recipe

Start from oil

[fierce ruin]

where 😭

[civic bronze]

^

[outer vale]

there are two recipes there that make Rubber

[fierce ruin]

thus?

[outer vale]

or sure, that also works

[fierce ruin]

okay my brain is ehm expanding

[opaque quartz]

the recipe literally called rubber

[outer vale]

there are multiple ways to make things, fyi

[outer vale]

gonna have to actually read your stuff

[fierce ruin]

just show me your oil stuff at this rate

whole set up

i understand by seeing

[outer vale]

it'd just be a bunch of refineries

[opaque quartz]

this is a production plan that explains what I described above

[fierce ruin]

i think i got it, i need power

[opaque quartz]

one refinery with the Rubber recipe. a second refinery with the Petroleum Coke recipe

[outer vale]

this was one of my older setups, doesn't show you anything useful at all lol

(it's also far larger than you'd be building right now)

[fierce ruin]

holy fuck

wait

will i need other oil reserves then

[outer vale]

in what way?

[fierce ruin]

to have other refineries

[outer vale]

there is more than just rubber, yes

as you can see from the recipes you have

[fierce ruin]

where do i go from here

guide me pls

[outer vale]

read your recipes, decide what you actually want to make, work out what recipes you want to use

[fierce ruin]

i need water too?

from where 😭

[outer vale]

how would you normally get water?

[fierce ruin]

do i build this on top of water

in floors?

is that best way

i like having it organised

i wish there were oil rigs

[opaque quartz]

I gave you a recipe chain that doesn't require water

[fierce ruin]

oh

[fierce ruin]

is water more efficient

[opaque quartz]

efficient in what way? in terms of amount of rubber produced per oil?

[fierce ruin]

i guess?

[thick plank]

in terms of items produced per oil the optimal one is somewhat complicated, basically requiring three different production lines

[outer vale]

also requires a bunch of alts they won't have access to yet
(and would completely overwhelm them if they're struggling with their very first setup)
stick with simple for now

[thick plank]

I personally really like the dilluted fuel loop (So basically that is you produce heavy oil residue, turn the heavy oil into fuel via dilluted recepie and turn the polymer resin into rubber, and then you turn rubber into plastic using fuel and plastic into rubber using fuel and round and round)

[fierce ruin]

oh alr

[opaque quartz]

yeah they are struggling with the basic concepts here, no need to throw this at them

[fierce ruin]

that sounds complex

🥵

[thick plank]

but dont worry too much about optimization. You cant really do much wrong in this game

just build a setup you feel comfortable with

[fierce ruin]

where do i go now with this, im making rubber and that purple alien liquid

[opaque quartz]

what do you do with the outputs of any other production lines? what are you doing with your iron plates, for example?

[fierce ruin]

ah ok but what about that grape juice thing

liquid

[opaque quartz]

i gave you the recipe chain

what does it say?

[fierce ruin]

i thought its like lineing it all up

??

[opaque quartz]

the rubber is not part of the second step. you want to send the rubber to a storage container

[fierce ruin]

oh

[opaque quartz]

only the heavy oil residue needs to be sent to the second refinery

[fierce ruin]

okay which i did

[opaque quartz]

again, look at the production plan. look at the arrows

[fierce ruin]

i cant find it sorry

[fierce ruin]

why would i need it for coal generator

you said or sink

[opaque quartz]

its a byproduct

[thick plank]

you can just sink the petroleum coke

[opaque quartz]

if you don't do anything with it, the machine will back up and eventually stop running

[thick plank]

you cant sink liquids, so you had to get rid of it somehow

[fierce ruin]

what about coal gen

[opaque quartz]

you can burn petroleum coke in a coal gen similar to coal. but that would require water for the generator

directly sinking it is the easiest option

[fierce ruin]

is it like better than coal?

[opaque quartz]

not really

[fierce ruin]

worse?

[opaque quartz]

yes, it's quite a bit worse

[fierce ruin]

alr i guess sink

[opaque quartz]

again, this is a byproduct so you just need to find some way to get rid of it

your rubber refinery has probably stopped producing at this point, am I right? the output buffer of the heavy oil residue (purple liquid) has filled up?

[fierce ruin]

i have it set to this but the liquid aint flowing in

[fierce ruin]

i think

[opaque quartz]

did you connect the output pipe of the rubber refinery to the input pipe of the coke refinery?

[fierce ruin]

ye

[opaque quartz]

does that pipe segment have any fluid in it? press E

[opaque quartz]

that's fuel, not heavy oil residue

[thick plank]

you need to flush it

[fierce ruin]

oh

[opaque quartz]

you're using a different recipe chain

[fierce ruin]

ehm??

[opaque quartz]

oh I see

you changed the recipe. you made fuel first and then changed it so fuel got into that pipe

[fierce ruin]

ohh

[opaque quartz]

just delete and recreate that pipe segment

[thick plank]

You will need to open up the pipe and flush it or delete and rebuild it

[fierce ruin]

YEEEEE

what is coke used for to make

[opaque quartz]

!wikisearch petroleum+coke

[brisk shore]

https://satisfactory.wiki.gg/index.php?search=petroleum+coke

[fierce ruin]

whats the point making it in first place

[opaque quartz]

to get rid of the byproduct

heavy oil residue is a byproduct here. you have to do something with it

turning it into coke is the easiest option

[fierce ruin]

wdym something

i see this pointless to make e

[opaque quartz]

heavy oil residue. purple stuff. if you don't process it, the buffer fills up, and the rubber refinery stops running

then you don't get any rubber

[fierce ruin]

ohhhh

[opaque quartz]

this is what byproduct means

something that gets made that you don't necessarily want

[fierce ruin]

so its like peeing in toilet type of thing

lol

[fierce ruin]

alr ty

[opaque quartz]

so again - there's lots of things you can do with heavy oil residue. with the right alt recipes it's actually really useful stuff. but at this stage in the game you just need to get rid of it so you can keep your rubber production running. make sense?

[fierce ruin]

how many can i have of the machines per extractor if my pipes are 300cm3

[fierce ruin]

yep

🫡

[opaque quartz]

well, look at the recipe. how much oil does a single rubber refinery take in? (per minute)

[fierce ruin]

ill check

[opaque quartz]

it's in the production plan too. all the numbers there are per-minute

[fierce ruin]

im overclocking it all

so its like easier

[opaque quartz]

the only thing that changes is the number of machines

2 refineries at 100% is the same as one refinery at 200%

[fierce ruin]

50 rubber per minute

[opaque quartz]

how much crude oil is it taking to make 50 rubber per minute? (sounds like one refinery clocked to 250%)

[fierce ruin]

ye

[fierce ruin]

not sure how much oil

[opaque quartz]

the refinery will tell you

[fierce ruin]

300

[fierce ruin]

oh 75?

[opaque quartz]

yes. 75 per minute

[fierce ruin]

so that means

is it better to overclock

or have many

[opaque quartz]

overclocking uses exponentially more power

but less space/machines

looks like you are running a heavily modded game based on your number of inventory slots. idk what your power situation is

[fierce ruin]

ah

[opaque quartz]

an OCd machine at 200% uses more power than two machines at 100%

[fierce ruin]

i just have fly mod, inventory 300+ and building zoom feature

and pure nodes

[fierce ruin]

whats OCD

[fierce ruin]

you can get the jetpack/hoverpack which do that

[fierce ruin]

ye but my base is on cliffs

[opaque quartz]

OC'd = overclocked

[fierce ruin]

oh

i can have with 300cm3 pipes 10 refinery without overclocked

ive managed to do this which i think is neat

with overclocked its 4 machines overclocked

[opaque quartz]

yep

keep in mind you need to math out how many refineries you need to deal with the heavy oil residue byproduct as well

[fierce ruin]

with the excess of that purple stuff and coke, cant i just put it all into 1 pipe going into the sink

[opaque quartz]

the sink doesn't take fluids

[fierce ruin]

oh shit

[opaque quartz]

that's the entire reason you have to turn it into coke first

[fierce ruin]

where should the fluid go then

[thick plank]

ooh nice, ill need to make one of those as well

[opaque quartz]

are you for real right now?

[fierce ruin]

bro

idk 😭

[fierce ruin]

you should see what my diluted packaged fuel setup looks like in my last save....

[opaque quartz]

we went through the whole thing about byproducts. about making petroleum coke

[fierce ruin]

glad im not rushing oil

[thick plank]

the fluid goes into the refineries wich make the coke wich goes into the shredder

[fierce ruin]

but where does the liquid purple go

[opaque quartz]

what do you mean

[fierce ruin]

only in coal gen?

the excess of purple oil

[thick plank]

you should see mine.

[fierce ruin]

my brain is hurting from this

[opaque quartz]

where is the purple oil residue going in what you've already built?

[fierce ruin]

uhm i think

[thick plank]

why rush anything with that game?

[fierce ruin]

i was exhausted and wanted all that stuff done

how fast does the sink eat the coke

im a changed man of course

[fierce ruin]

immediately

i got mk3 belt

there is no limit to the sink

[opaque quartz]

the sink eats everything immediately. the only limit is the belt speed feeding it

so lets say you made four fully overclocked refineries so you could use 300 oil

[fierce ruin]

yep

[opaque quartz]

how much rubber would that make? how much heavy oil residue byproduct would it make?

[fierce ruin]

im not sure

[opaque quartz]

math it out

or use a production calculator

[fierce ruin]

50 per min

[fierce ruin]

how

[echo spire]

Anyone whos had experience with nuclear, is it worth overclocking the reactors to make pipework for the water extractors easier?

[opaque quartz]

imho yes

[echo spire]

I'm max overclocking extractors for 300 cubic metres

[opaque quartz]

https://www.satisfactorytools.com/1.0/production

this is what I shared a screenshot of earlier

[fierce ruin]

oh

it looks confusin

[opaque quartz]

mk3 belt is limited to 270/min, so if you wanted to do this production plan, you'd need to set up multiple sinks

or just scale it back

[fierce ruin]

how many

im close to mk4

[outer vale]

how many belts of 270 would you need to carry 600 items

[opaque quartz]

mk4 belt is 480/min, still not enough

[fierce ruin]

3

3 sinks?

ye but 1 issue tho

[outer vale]

and when you get mk4 belts, if you decide to rejig, you can use 2 sinks instead

[fierce ruin]

how much does 1 ref produce of that 600 from 5

so i need 1 sink per 2 ref?

[opaque quartz]

what's 600/5?

[fierce ruin]

bro idk

[outer vale]

you have a calculator
the game itself has a calculator

[fierce ruin]

game has calculator inside?

[outer vale]

and also the game Codex tells you the recipe rate per refinery

yes, the search bar when you press N doubles as a calculator (as do a lot of building edit boxes)

[opaque quartz]

press N for quicksearch which you can also type math into

[fierce ruin]

aint working

[outer vale]

lol

type in some actual math like 1+1

[fierce ruin]

what about multiply

[outer vale]

also works

[fierce ruin]

?

[opaque quartz]

1 * 1

[outer vale]

you can just... try it

[opaque quartz]

1 / 1 for division

[fierce ruin]

alr alr

never knew about it

[opaque quartz]

yeah, it's not really advertised you can do that, but super handy

you can type math equations into most machine input boxes too

[fierce ruin]

damn ty

[wind spade]

though if you're the kind of person that wants exact numbers, it's not recommended much

[fierce ruin]

im feeding 12 refinieries 360 HOR/min

however, im using the mk1 pipes so i cant really do that

HOWEVER, you can feed 8 coal gens with 360 water/min so i assume i can do the same thing and achieve the same results?

[wind spade]

you can. with multiple pipes

[fierce ruin]

ive done a loop, considering it works with water extractors i hope it works here

[glass harness]

It should 👍

[opaque quartz]

As long as no single pipe segment is moving more than 300/min, you’ll be fine. This is the “trick” with coal gens too

[dreamy nimbus]

not infinite amount of space though

[opaque quartz]

Yeah fair. Helpful for basic multiplication and division tho if you don’t know the numbers offhand

[dreamy nimbus]

well in general for ratios, modeler give you the numbers like 58.33334 : hover on to of it and it will give you 58 1/3

[tulip sky]

just got done setting up my first aluminum sheet factory, and I was wondering if there's like a good ratio of how much of it should become aluminum casings?

[dreamy nimbus]

alclad sheets don't become casings ?

[tulip sky]

lmao yeah I literally just realized that after setting everything up 🤦‍♂️

either way, how much of my aluminum should be going towards casings/alclad sheets?

[wind spade]

how many of casings/sheets do you need? that's the question you need to answer 😛

(if you don't know, just don't make any yet, keep it as ingots, and use them on demand)

the game doesn't have any "general" rule on how much do you need to make of what, especially since we have alt recipes that change how items are made, which changes demand of different intermediates (or even skips them completely)

so it's (imo) better to just build what you need now at the moment, and when you'll need something later, you'll build it later

[tulip sky]

I understand that, I guess I'm asking mainly to spare myself the hassle of having to re-build this whole factory in the future because I made too many sheets and too few casings or vice-versa

because it's very far from my main base and at least at the moment, moving between bases is a whole process

[vapid gorge]

don't make or build any until you need the casings and sheets then

[vapid gorge]

also just build some hyper tubes

[wind spade]

which is exactly why you don't build anything until you need it - then you don't build "wrong" amount

[tulip sky]

I did, it's still like a good 3-4 min ride lol

[wind spade]

good time to stretch, grab a drink and pet the cat

[tulip sky]

fair enough i guess

[vapid gorge]

which you'll only have to do when you build what you need after you know 🙂

personally I avoid the whole situation by just splitting it in half and storing thousands of parts and smushing them together as needed.

good way to go up the tutorial tiers

[dreamy nimbus]

except Mk stuff and stuff that you need to build other stuff

Like a certain amount of time crystal fiscite / min to always be able to make belts

Turbo motors for Mk3 miners

Motors for refineries etc...

[wind spade]

yeah, but again, the amount you make depends on how much you build those buildings, which will also differ between players

(and how fast)

[dreamy nimbus]

my rule of them is, 2 ppm for most stuff

and with enough storage I'll prob never run of them

[glass harness]

You could build a few more factories than your input supports. once a storage box is full -> the input goes where its needed

Requires you not to sink the end-products though

[wind spade]

imo that's weird approach and I wouldn't recommend it

as then your production only runs if storage is full

[glass harness]

Smart splitter to the secondary buildings, only runs if needed / there is surplus of input

But down to the individual player how to approach the issue

[dreamy nimbus]

in objectiveness it's not recommended, do it the other way

main stuff goes to the factory, if overflow -> goes to stockage ig

[prime forum]

How much would it cost to overclock my Miner to 155%?

[wind spade]

2 shards

[prime forum]

oh ok

can you take the shards out after doing it if you want to un-overclock it

[wind spade]

yes, you never "lose" anything in this game

[prime forum]

ok

bro greeny ur actually carrying my run with all these question answers 💀

[prime forum]

And the amazing calculator

[restive sparrow]

Every time I switch in a battery + hypertube setup I blow a fuse even though I have like 800 MW of headroom and over a thousand MWH of backup power...what the holy hell?

[restive sparrow]

Has anyone else experienced fuse breakages when switching a load into the circuit?

[thorny root]

Does overclocking nuclear increase fuel consumption and waste production, or just water consumption?

[thorn trail]

overclocking is just like building more of a machine, the inputs and outputs are increased proportionally

[pastel obsidian]

Water caps at 600

[fallow siren]

the only thing clocking does is the amount of machine you put

250% of 1 npp is the same as placing 2.5 npp

[zealous coral]

It increase all lineary with nuclear power plant, just like building more nuclear power plants, increase energy generation water consumption waste production

[proven pawn]

whaat is hapenning here

i keep hearing about using something similar to power ur base that is radioactive but doesent produce waste

what is it and i wanna do that instead

[vapid gorge]

it's just another phase

[quartz pasture]

Anyone here use a tool to help keep track of train stations and their various load, unload platforms?

or in general, the train network freight?

[smoky aurora]

🤓 in our Head 😄

[quartz pasture]

That's not gonna work eventually

[smoky aurora]

i Name stations like what i load unload there with ammount