math-and-meta

[magic island]

every encoder recipe except Neural-Quantum processor requires dark matter crystals at some point in its production chain

so to get things going, you have to either add some already-produced dark matter crystals, or pipe in some SAM-produced DMR

[pastel obsidian]

don't forget to have an overflow to sink the excess Dark matter Crystals

[grand jasper]

set that one up already 🙂

[broken kiln]

anyone done the calculations for the maxiumum amount of non-biomass power producable?

namely, nuclear, ionized/rocket/turbo, and coal

[grand jasper]

ooooh that is cool. the quantum encoders power usage is changing but quantized

[magic island]

I think the problem gets complicated quite a bit by sloops, APAs, and converters. I don't know if anyone's come up with an absolute max calculation

[broken kiln]

ah fair enough, i didn't think about sloops etc. what are APAs?

[fringe pawn]

THe problem for maximum power is complicated, and I don't think there's much motivation to solve it because from the perspective of power as a means to an end, maximum power doesn't have a use in the game now that we know the power use of tier 9.

Put another way, power is a product like anything else, and if you overbuild power, it takes away from your ability to build other things.

[magic island]

Alien Power Augmenters

by default they add a 10% power bonus per building, 30% if you feed them Alien Power Matrixes (which cost SAM to produce)

I would assume theoretical maximum power would involve building 10 APAs and allocating the required 6000 SAM/minute to upgrade them. but then you're still left with the question of spending the remaining SAM (I think others have mathed out that it's actually more net power to use it to make more Uranium, rather putting it into the Ficsonium process?)

[fringe pawn]

I haven't seen any math find Ficsonium to be useful. You have to want Ficsonium for its own sake. The optimal solution probably remains making plutonium rods and either sinking them or burning them and tucking the waste in a corner.

[velvet venture]

what would be you guy's easy setups to produce rocket fuel?

[fringe pawn]

I don't know that anything has changed in 1.0, but people have save edited preposterous amount of plutonium waste into their files and as a practical matter you can store it forever.

[magic island]

If you are already producing Turbofuel, default is the most convenient for converting that into Rocket Fuel

if you're starting from scratch, Nitro Rocket Fuel is the simpler overall build

[deft lichen]

when someone asks for an objective comparison of alt recipes, I'll send them this

[broken kiln]

offhand (don't worry about calculating or lookup if not) do you know which yields more RF from the same crude? i assume it would be nitro, but unsure

[velvet venture]

thinking of sth like this from scratch. quick and dirty. Ill just sink the byproducts and burn the extra fuel and coal

[broken kiln]

here's my blue crater setup

[magic island]

Nitro RF is very slightly more oil-efficient, but consumes more Nitrogen, Sulfur, and forces the use of coal (whereas default can be made without coal, but forces you to add iron)

[spare jolt]

Why do people try to go overkill with rocket fuel for no real reason?

[velvet venture]

The normal recipe guzzles alot of oil, dosent save that much on other resources and also is alot more complicated to build and expand

[spare jolt]

Like, do you guys know how many generators you need for 3600 RF?

[velvet venture]

860~ish

[spare jolt]

legit covering half the map with fuel gens asså

[broken kiln]

that's not even my "stupid build" for the spire coast

[velvet venture]

I mean in my first playthrough I spent so long trying to make the sought after Rocket Fuel plant, started with 16 gens and when I realized one of my 8 nuclear reactors just beat it outright I didnt pursue fuel plants anymore

[broken kiln]

i always forget how energy dense nuclear is

[velvet venture]

My main power sources was 20 Nuke plants which was more than enough to get me by.
The last project on that build was a plutonium fuel rod Factory for sinking.

[velvet venture]

I was going by your comment and removed coal from the equation.

[fringe pawn]

It takes 36 blueprints of 4 generators at 250% (doable in MK2) to consumer 1500 rocket fuel. And you can build it vertically. That's really not a lot of space.

[spare jolt]

36 blueprints
Just a tiny bit

[fringe pawn]

You'll get it up in less time than nuclear

250GW or so is the tipping point IMO.

[magic island]

I think it's mainly that if you just punch in a couple nodes' worth of each relevant resource, SFTools will easily just give you a bonkers amount of RF

"Two pure oil nodes, one pure sulfur node, one pure coal node... ok that makes 3692.31, let's round down to 3600". the hundreds of generators aren't even a consideration yet

[fringe pawn]

Default rocket fuel shines with turbo blend because you only need oil, sulfur, and nitrogen. And a touch of iron. 1500 rocket fuel and 144 OC generators could be down before someone building nuclear has even routed all their resources IMO.

[tidal dock]

Plotting down Generators to comsume RF is easiest part.

The pipe works to keep Refineries and Blenders running 100% is the fun part.

[pastel obsidian]

People like big numbers, also oil is something you can "Finish"

[broken kiln]

1200 sulfur would only net you 1800, by my rudimentary calc

[fringe pawn]

With what recipes?

[broken kiln]

HOR alt, diluted fuel, nitro

[fringe pawn]

2400 rocket fuel requires 990 oil, 570 sulfur, no coal, and 960 nitrogen with default rocket fuel and turbo blend.

And HOR+diluted fuel of course

[broken kiln]

tools is tweakin' then

[thorn trellis]

thats alot of power

144k

[steel knot]

What nice flows do people use for plutonium rods? I’ve got too many options

[thorny root]

@rotund sleet thoughts?

[grim walrus]

anyway to get this reinfery count down a bit

[amber jacinth]

Yeah, ficsonium is most definitely not viable for any large-scale optimizations... unfortunately.

The "theoretical max points" setup on the wiki burns uranium and sinks plutonium rods

[thorny root]

Is there no up side at all to ficsonium fuel rods?

[amber jacinth]

Besides getting rid of plutonium waste? No. And it's not even particularly good at that, either.

[thorny root]

so why did the devs make it so trash?

[amber jacinth]

That is a fantastic question tbh

I can see them not fully balancing it properly pre-1.0 release due to limited feedback available

[thorny root]

Well the only way to tune it without breaking people's shit is to just make it worth more energy / burn longer.

I mean... why would the company be famous for something that's not even as good as uranium.

[vapid gorge]

use copper alloy

[void shell]

I've been looking for a quick short guide on pipes for dummies does it not exist?

[vapid gorge]

#math-and-meta message

[wind spade]

I mean it gets rid of PWaste, that's decent enough

[vapid gorge]

why did musk make the cybertruck so trash? who knows

[deep jacinth]

much like Musk himself, the cybertruck is a meme. In game and in real life.

[pure crow]

I saw one in real life while I was driving. It was moving. Truly terrifying.

[vapid gorge]

I mean, all he wants is attention. He's getting it. Doesn't matter if it's negative or positive. Like a child

[deep jacinth]

It would be funny if he weren't obscenely rich and attempting to involve himself in governance

[vapid gorge]

and union breaking, and leeching subsidies, and poluting space.

[spare jolt]

except that in satisfactory it doesn't fall apart if you breathe on it

[deep jacinth]

ADA: Ficsit would like to remind Pioneers not to place their fingers in Cybercuck pinch points when loading material into the cargo area. Ficsit is not responsible for missing digits, even if caused by genetic deficiencies.

[spare jolt]

richest guy in the world, can do whatever he wants and no one can do nothing about it

[wanton sky]

Hey guys I wanna reach top efficiency any site that I can use to plan out the nodes of my factory prior to building ?

Thanks

[vapid gorge]

https://www.satisfactorytools.com/1.0/production

[wanton sky]

Ty

[vapid gorge]

it takes some practice to get teh most out of it but it's worth it

[wanton sky]

Good thing to keep in mind I’ll play around with it when I get home

[vapid gorge]

imo it's best to swap recipes in and out to force the planner to use the ones you want, otherwise it'll use it's own resource weights in planning which probably won't match up with a location yo uwant to build in

[wind spade]

or other way around - let it plan with all available options and just disable those it recommends you don't like, until you're happy with what you wanted

[wanton sky]

I’m still very new so I’ll learn with it as I learn the game

[deep jacinth]

max efficiency comes from alternate recipes

Use alt recipes to eliminate specific low tier product runs, or divert those runs to other high cost, high tier assemblies

https://www.reddit.com/r/SatisfactoryGame/comments/1fekus9/alternate_recipe_ranking_10_optimizing_for/

[vapid gorge]

yeah those lists are generally garbage

and extremely subjective

[deep jacinth]

The tiers are general guidance, but are specific to your individual builds

[vapid gorge]

if you have the same subjective criteria? sure it's fine, but mostly they just give an illusion of 'best'

[deep jacinth]

Yeah Im not saying its objective at all. Its a good reference for which help your specific factories the most

Like I said above.

[vapid gorge]

yeah but that's the main problem, they're presented in such a way as to go 'hey this is best' and shuts down critical thought.

[deep jacinth]

Take it up with the post author?

My take is that alt recipes should be used to eliminate low tier product runs or divert runs to other assemblies, and provided the reference of alt recipes as guidance. Its updated for 1.0 and provides decent rationale. The author of that Reddit post came to their own conclusions. I never advocated their assessments.

[wanton sky]

I’ll have to give this a read

Nuclear power sounds fun

I wanna get there

[deep jacinth]

Its a good read especially if you havent seen all the possible alt recipes, the specific "tier" is definitely subjective, but it helps you weed out an obviously unhelpful alt from a good one

[amber jacinth]

Nuclear power is very fun and a good logistical challenge 🙂

[scenic cloud]

Every alt is occasionally useful

It depends on how accessible resources are to your specific factory

[deep jacinth]

Bicoal is never useful, fight me.

[scenic cloud]

Handcrafting gas filters in the wild

[wanton sky]

I built on the bottom left part of map I read somewhere is reccomend for newer players

I got like 5 iron nodes near me

[vapid gorge]

pls pls pls take everything with a pound of salt. It's an extremely narrow view of recipes and their value

most of an alt's recipe's value is determined by locations, how much of what you want to make, and literally every other recipe you use in conjunction.

it's why these lists are bad.

For example the recipes in the D and F tiers, 'not recommended', definitely have their situational use.

There are of course some I don't use, but that's jsut because I don't build in that way and find ways I like better.

It's all very personal

[spare jolt]

me who decided to unironically fuel the truck with biocoal before I discovered a nearby coal node:

[vapid gorge]

low yield amunitions manufactory that doesn't need a constant supply, you just dump a bunch into a bin

and sure, it's niche, but it has it's uses

[spare jolt]

Producing munitions at the cost of longer map loading

[vapid gorge]

eh, you tend to collect a bunch just as somethign on the side to building and exploring or just leftover stuff from pre coal

[wanton sky]

I’ll keep this in mind thanks

[magic island]

that would still be breaky; existing ficsonium plants would start backing up and it could affect certain steps in the chain (since there's DMR byproduct and dark matter crystal consumption involved)

the only safe way to buff ficsonium now would be to add some alt recipes for a cheaper production process

[deep jacinth]

Fine. Let me revise my statement. Biocoal is never useful for automation

So by all standards, it would literally rank as the lowest alternate recipe that I would spend a hard drive to obtain.

[wanton sky]

I have been hearing hard drives a lot is something u find or craft ?

I explored a good bit and could not find any

[amber jacinth]

You find them in crashed ships around the map

[wanton sky]

I have seen a ton of those guess I was just unlucky

[amber jacinth]

The hard drives are inside the main ship part of those

One in every crash site

[violet halo]

There's well over 100 of them on the map, I forget the exact count.

[amber jacinth]

108, I think

[wanton sky]

I’ll have to go back then

[spare jolt]

There's a big chonky piece of each crash site that contains a drive

[amber jacinth]

ah, 118 from the wiki

[spare jolt]

It may or may not have a requirement to retrieve it

[violet halo]

More often than not, they have a requirement.

[wanton sky]

Is there some kind of Easter egg with the purple balls I have been getting some cryptic msg when picking them

[wanton sky]

What is that requirement ?

[violet halo]

They also have random materials around them, pick those up, they can help you open other ones earlier.

[amber jacinth]

That's the game's story there

[violet halo]

An amount of power, or a certain product with an amount.

Very few of them are the same.

[wanton sky]

Oh I did not knew this game has a story

This is getting better

[spare jolt]

It kinda does

[violet halo]

It has a cursory story.

[amber jacinth]

It's pretty background, and very new (1.0 release stuff)

[spare jolt]

It's more of a narrative than a story

[vapid gorge]

again, alt recipes fill their niches, you don't want to use that niche? that's fine. Doesn't make them bad

like quick wire stator. Very niche, but I ended up with a plan for them

[deep jacinth]

im not saying Biocoal is bad; Im saying from a perspective of opportunity cost (the choice of one alt recipe over another for a given hard drive) certain recipes rank lower than others.

some so much so, that they do not warrant consideration until all other alt recipes have been unlocked.

[vapid gorge]

90% of recipes you get you won't use immediately and there's more hdds than recipes on the map. Opportunity cost is essentially nothing unless you're hunting for a very specific recipe for the next project.

and at THAT point every recipe is subjectively shit until you find the one or ones you're after

to varying degrees obvs, like you probably go 'oh this one might be useful in a few days' and grab it

[pulsar lagoon]

i just have 1 pump(mk2), is this enough for water going up?

is this high

[violet halo]

You can look at the pump and see how much headlift is being used.

[violet halo]

This one definitely needs a second pump. I like to put mine between 40-45 meters up if it's on a vertical pipe. They don't stack, so the pump needs to be near the top of the first ones headlift.

[wanton sky]

I can’t do scary games at all and I got a chill yesterday

I have heard the voice a total of 3 times I believe

[honest lotus]

The voice eventually stops after you collect enough spheres but it takes quite a few

You'll know because the codex entry for the audio file will say it's the final one

[prisma kraken]

that is a pretty objectively bad recipe though. you end up cheaper with default stator & fused wire OR with caterium wire

not saying you're choice is bad, sometimes using a less efficient combo b/c the numbers work perfectly makes sense

[pulsar notch]

Or you need quickwire for AI limiters so using up excess on quickwire stators just simplifies things a little.

[vapid gorge]

no? if you need to cut down on your steel consumption it's great

it has a job, if that's what you need you use it

[prisma kraken]

yeah, i guess

it was more of a concern before 1.0

now steel isn't as bad

[vapid gorge]

again, it depends on your

location
other recipes used
local resources
resources you're willing or prefer to ship in

now, is it common that you need to restrict your steel usage? probably not. You're often either sitting on a bunch or need so much you're going to ship it in anyway. So the way a lot of people play prob won't see much use.
I was dubious about it too but I ended up needing it for a project and it was pretty critical

[prisma kraken]

hey, if it worked for you, +1

[vapid gorge]

yeah. it has 1 job and it's really good at it.

if you don't need that job? sure it's not 'good'. But you can say that about most recipes if not all to a degree

[prisma kraken]

i am however finding that generally my steel needs are much less since 45/min HMF's is no longer a cross biome build

the addition of the extra coal nodes, the buff/nerf that compacted steel recieved, the addition of the molded pipe and iron pipe recipes all just make it a lot easier

[vapid gorge]

oh yeah, like I said, often times steel isn't your bottle neck

[prisma kraken]

where i used to find qw stator useful was in the swamp with nuclear if you built it there - the 450 crude that's there meant you really needed to be on a budget for making coke steel

[vapid gorge]

yup. And that's where I planned it out for, for a 'make everything in the swamp' project since there was no coal there everything had to be coke steel. So reducing plastic/rubber/alum/steel was needed

[prisma kraken]

right

[pulsar notch]

Well, you have coal near the oil in the south of the swamp. It's not bad, really.

[prisma kraken]

now the swamp actually has a fair bit of coal that isn't logistically awful to get into the area

[prisma kraken]

pre-1.0 that coal didn't exist

[vapid gorge]

that's new yeah.

but also wanted to avoid grabbing any resource above the rim

[pulsar notch]

ah. So there was even less reason to ever do anything in the swamp

[prisma kraken]

the closest coal to the swamp was placed where the 2 east dune forest limestone nodes are

[vapid gorge]

depends? it's really good steel reduction.

[pulsar notch]

I'm putting my power plant and aluminum in the swamp just out of sheer spite.

[prisma kraken]

i'm a little salty. 45 fmf/min just barely doesn't fit in the swamp as a biome build

[vapid gorge]

how is that spite? it's a really good spot

[prisma kraken]

i'm short by like 12.5 crude/min

[pulsar notch]

oh, it's spite because I hate spiders, so building my plant there reduces how many spiders can be on the map.

[prisma kraken]

so do nuke nobelisks 😄

[pulsar notch]

I don't like the spicy rock, so I haven't looked into those.

I guess I ought to in order to finish out all research though

[prisma kraken]

the ones i have have been gifts from the doggos

btw, if you set up a blender near some of the small uranium rocks in a location with a couple, you can make the uranium cells you need for that unlock pretty easy & quick

just takes planning the ingredient list to whack it all out quick

(and a hazmat suit)

[pulsar notch]

With all the stuff being respawned, that's probably pretty easy now.

[prisma kraken]

incidentally, i count 29 respawned sloops

i did a quick round-up of them earlier today

[pulsar notch]

that's a fantastic bonus for people who collected a bunch prior.

[prisma kraken]

really i'm happy for the 'bug'

i honestly wish they'd have more like 300 of them on the map

[pulsar notch]

They aree nice, especially if ytou have the power to handle them.

[faint epoch]

how many hypertube entrances to go about 2500 meters if anyone knows?

[prisma kraken]

the APA is pretty stupid imba, but that isn't sloop's main function

[pulsar notch]

depends on if you have a jetpack, and which fuel

[prisma kraken]

it is as much starting altitude and angle as it is speed, so the answer differs

[faint epoch]

no jetpack

ill do 5 and see where that gets me

[pulsar notch]

no jetpack and flinging yourself 2500? bold move, Cotton, let's see how that works out.

[prisma kraken]

built 10, see how it handles and fuss

[faint epoch]

k

[faint epoch]

i got parachute

[prisma kraken]

protip: enter halfway first so you don't yeet yourself off the map, and drop a save before

[vapid gorge]

if you want more sloops than the game designed just scim them in instead of pretending you're getting cheeky freebies?

not sure why all the love for them though, essentially a soft creative Dupe mechanic that just cut outs making more of a factory. Which is .. .the point of the game.

[prisma kraken]

there's things like using them to create synthetic resource nodes i'd like to do

if the count were less tight, that would make that much more of the meta

[vapid gorge]

like sam? yeah another mechanic that is essentially just duping. It's not like using all of a resource is a likely or common thing. Just kinda weird honestly.

[prisma kraken]

and idk, i think it would be a good thing

[vapid gorge]

just mod in more nodes if you want more resources

[prisma kraken]

yeah, i'm just at the point where i kind of have a good idea of what i wish to build and what all it'll take and am getting frustrated by the sloop limit

[faint epoch]

is this looking right, im following the wiki

[vapid gorge]

gg or fandom?

[faint epoch]

gg

[vapid gorge]

prob fine then

[prisma kraken]

you can get the segments closer together by building a series of supports packed together, connecting a tube btw every two and then deleting every other support like so:

idk if it makes any difference to speed or anything, but it saves a bit of space... I really gave up on using cannons a long time ago since it is such a fussy thing to tune right

i really haven't even tried them since update 7

so... question... when a drone uses rocket or ion fuel, each package is 2 uncompressed units, are costs for the compressed 2-unit package or for the 1-unit uncompressed?

[faint epoch]

how r u able to cut the hypertubes like that?

figured it out

[prisma kraken]

you start by building a tube like this

then delete one end

[faint epoch]

k

[prisma kraken]

not sure if you can just build the supports and connect them together - i think snapping rules get wonky

[faint epoch]

so how are u suppowed to connect them together on the inside?

ius this the end product of the first one?

so it is

tested

working on the launch angle currently

found it, gotta work on more power tho

i still need more power

[prisma kraken]

there's a reason most seasoned players forego building them - it is just really fussy & time consuming

[faint epoch]

well i finished it, its going to the place where i need it to go

[prisma kraken]

i honestly rely mostly on ziplining from power towers to get around

that and just knowing how to move quick

[faint epoch]

same, but that was to slow to be going 2500 meters every time

[prisma kraken]

the jetpack helps a lot with that

[faint epoch]

this is my final project of it anyways

[prisma kraken]

if you toss a power switch on it, you can save yourself some power

[faint epoch]

k

[prisma kraken]

also, i've seen a few people power them with biomass burners and just drop enough fuel in the feed to power them on for a bit

[fringe seal]

Plan for Caterium factory
would 16 AI limiters/min be enough for endgame

mostly concerned with the ratios of the end products

[prisma kraken]

seems a little low, they're used in oscillators and ecr's

[pulsar notch]

depends on how many mag field gens and assembly directors/min you want

16 per minute would be enough for 4/min magnetic field generators plus 12/min for the supercomputers for assembly directors

That said I also don't use AI limiters on crystal oscillators

[fringe seal]

gotcha

maybe I'll get another node

or maybe I can reduce the connector

[astral warren]

I do too but that’s only because I have a mod that lets me change the zip lining speeds

Otherwise they’d be much too slow for me to wanna use regularly

[loud trellis]

Is this reasonable power shard production? Going up is Ionized Fuel at 1,215.28 Ionized/min

[prisma kraken]

yeah, the speed was much better in update 7 & before... what i've found though is that if you zip up to a tower at high elevation, you can get pretty much anywhere pretty quick

[astral warren]

Yeah, you can just fill up like 3 containers with shards feeding into a depot and be set for life

And just use the line for ionized fuel or whatever

[loud trellis]

Not like we'll be using shards for anything anyways

We're only sharding miners and extractors

[prisma kraken]

for building use, you can just set up a small line that makes them from time crystal & quartz, any systained production needs to be sunk into ion fuel

[astral warren]

I’m starting to shard everything at this point

[loud trellis]

Not sharding makes this a pain

[astral warren]

Early game was fine but when I need like 20-50 of each building for a factory I kinda wanna cut down on that if possible

[prisma kraken]

yeah, you'll find that even a crate of quartz & time crystal makes a ton of shards

[loud trellis]

405 Ionized generators

[vale wyvern]

update: looping the manifold at the ends was required for 600m3 stable gas

[prisma kraken]

where making shards comes in handy is it makes a lot of byproduct dark crystal

[loud trellis]

I have water as a byproduct but Satisfactory Modeler doesn't like when you loop a machine output into itself

lol

[prisma kraken]

is that tool still pretty rough around the edges?

[pulsar notch]

you know, turning 75/m crude into 300/min rocket fuel doesn't sound like a lot until you notice the burn rate on rocket fuel.

[loud trellis]

It's got better but it's quite handy, only issue is dealing with byproducts and oveflows

[livid robin]

is there a way to split 6 pipe outputs into 8 pipe inputs evenly?

[pulsar notch]

depends.

are they 6 full pipes?

[livid robin]

no, the six pipes have 400m each

[pulsar notch]

so trying to get 2400/min to split neatly 8 ways?

[livid robin]

yeah

[pulsar notch]

Well, good news and bad news. The math maths, but the 600/min limit is going to make it ugly, I believe.

[livid robin]

yeah that's what i thought, im trying to math it out on paper but math isn't my strong suit lmao

[sly ether]

these production values dont seem right at all. is this really the best way to do this or can i push this into nicer ratios with .5 at the end at worst?

[pulsar notch]

like, if i had to do it, I'd hide it away instead of showing it off, because I think you'ree talking about splitting the 6 into 12 flows of 200, then half of them into flows of 100, and mix and match until you get 300 into each line.

[livid robin]

makes sense thanks

[astral warren]

If your crude oil input weren’t a decimal I imagine the numbers would be a bit cleaner

[pulsar notch]

do you have the blender recipe for diluted fuel yet? If so, you can get more mileage out of that crude than you are.

[eager solar]

You can get more with hor, diluted fuel and both recycled alt

[pulsar notch]

well, that too, but one step at a time. ^^

[vast jungle]

a "vertical manifold" for gasses should be no issue, right?

[vital tundra]

okay so if i run these recycling refineries at 133%, that knocks the chart down to 40x each

so in theory, this works

if someone could check my work that would be appreciated

[burnt sequoia]

I made a storage mall with smart splitters for most items on my current progression, and added mergers behind the splitter layer for item overflow line directing into the sink. Is this a bit overkill if the same effect can be achieved by running the sorting line into the sink at the end? (currently on Mk. 4 belts)

[vital tundra]

also shoutout, you were right, this makes way more sense after i fiddled with it myself

[pure crow]

Probably? Would have to see the diagram to be sure, but the question would be, what purpose does it serve, and within that purpose, does it reduce to the simple circuit which you described?

[burnt sequoia]

im planning to funnel all my productions in this area into the mall, filling the storage as they go and the excess would simply drain into the sink

[pure crow]

By omission, then, and by mention of funneling, I am assuming there is one "input" (as in the entrance to the belt), many "outputs" insofar as there are many storages, one belt-way which passes through all of them and then finally one sink at the end?

If so, then, yeah, overkill.

(by the specifications of the design mentioned above)

[burnt sequoia]

yeah I didnt really account for volume when making the build but soon realized it after lol.
I could remove the overflow system (mergers) and utilize the second belt line on the fat storage containers for faster distribution

for the sink I could move it to the plateau behind this map and add more

[pure crow]

Yeah, if you want to add volume to your design goals, that second merger layer won't work either necessarily, you probably need to do some variation of ||parallel injection|| or other forms of ||high-throughput merged belts (harder to visualize how this would help in this scenario though, I'd have to think on it more)||

Of course, ||parallel injection|| would also partially ruin the point of the single belt. An irony, I guess.

[pulsar notch]

using industrial containers has a small perk that I appreciate situationally, which is that you can use the upper outlet port for a lift into a DD uploader while leaving the lower outlet port free for other use.

[burnt sequoia]

I was going to integrate dd uploaders for some items to snag them before they hit their respective storage containers along the circuit but so far ive only managed to make 2

the front portion of the mall im planning to leave open for expansion

[livid robin]

i did it woohoo

wait after looking at it maybe not oops

[wanton sky]

what would be a good location to have my first coal base ?

[deft lichen]

Coal generators need water, so somewhere with coal and water right beside each other

[burnt sequoia]

the one on the bottom right has a large lake area past it

[deft lichen]

I would recommend the nodes in the northwest

Keep the other two for steel

[wanton sky]

thanks for the info i shall tackle steel and coal tmrw

[leaden cosmos]

the coal hole (north) is where most green feilds starts end up

[wanton sky]

green fields?

i saw that

challenge accepted

[leaden cosmos]

the area you started is called green fields, because its a flat green feild with the big arch

all the starts are on the same map, just different parts of them

[frosty owl]

It's actually called that because those are the fields where noobs (pioneers that are still green) spawn

[leaden cosmos]

then why is the swamp not called the pit of madness? 😄

[pulsar notch]

I went east for coal for my green fields start.

[burnt sequoia]

I picked the desert area as my spawn and i absolutely regret it :kekw: love it

[pulsar notch]

Then tore down my coal plants to use those coal for steel, while my main power was fuel in the blue crater

[astral warren]

I picked desert too and it’s honestly kinda nice

[leaden cosmos]

I mean east is where you can make a overkill as all heck rocketfuel plant 😄

[astral warren]

Right next to water and three bajillion iron nodes available for use

[burnt sequoia]

the terrain is horrid for making floor bases though, unless you dont mind thiccly layered foundations if you're not building a sky base lol

[pulsar notch]

My major issue with the dune desert is how far you have to go for oil products and sluminum

[astral warren]

Our main base is just kinda chalked anyway because we neglected to align it to the world grid when we first made it

And now we’ve built way too much to tear it down and realign

So all our factories across the map are aligned but the main base isn’t 😭

[leaden cosmos]

embrace the chaos, hide it with some curves 😄

[pulsar notch]

Might be worth a teardown in phase 4 to rebuild with alternative recipes

[astral warren]

We’re in the last phase now

Working on overhauling all the old factories rn

God bless mk6 belts

MK5 belts doing 780 made clean ratios very difficult to achieve sometimes

[leaden cosmos]

now to look forward to mk7

[burnt sequoia]

i wanted to make this peak my base but when i got to the top

[astral warren]

For the sake of my world I hope not

[leaden cosmos]

time to automate some filters 😄

[astral warren]

I’m already losing enough throughput thanks to the MK6 belt “bug”

[leaden cosmos]

it carries 1234 items / min 😄

[astral warren]

[frosty owl]

1M floor holes anywhere? ^^

[astral warren]

Nah, ik about that bug though

The belt issue is due to my FPS being lower than the tick rate iirc

[frosty owl]

There shouldn't be such issues as far as we've managed to confirm, so it would be lovely if you could make sure things are as you think they are ^^

[pastel obsidian]

nice

[frosty owl]

BTW, this was the last "in depth" post on belts I know of. While 1.0 has touched upon beltwork some, there shouldn't be huge differences compared to this post (new belt, new issues with floor holes, maybe new values for throughput loss?)
https://www.reddit.com/r/SatisfactoryGame/s/CeOK3sxX1Y

Note: U8 didn't touch on beltwork

[wanton sky]

So east or the little lake up north ?

[leaden cosmos]

I'd say north for you, as what I am saying east is about half the map east 😄

[wanton sky]

Ohh yeah I don’t have a good way to move rn

I gotta make the xl stick

The big pigs take too long to kill with the small one

[prisma kraken]

fyi, i'm routinely seeing mk6's miss items

[deft lichen]

Are they actually missing when feeding a machine/container? Afaik they detached belt rendering from belt logic in 1.0

[prisma kraken]

no, especially coming out of miners, you sometimes see a hole and it corresponds to the miner's buffer gaining an item

very noticeable if you watch when an autosave kicks in

[deft lichen]

Oh :/

[prisma kraken]

i haven't diagnosed it in a lot of detail, so i'm going to avoid saying much more

[deft lichen]

I have seen some reports of smart splitters not keeping up with mk6s

[fringe pawn]

I'd bet on placing a really big blueprint causing the same sort of hiccup as an autosave.

[prisma kraken]

personally, i've just been building around it all and making sure that prod lines are getting overstuffed

i've also caught a few mergers from normal nodes doing 600/min miss items on a merged belt

i noticed similar in u8 with mk5 belts, so i don't believe it is anything really new

[timid zenith]

basic steel production yahhhhh

now what

[lilac coral]

replace all your belts with mk3 (?) belts.

whatever the steel beam one is

[timid zenith]

not yet

[timid zenith]

and a tractor too

now that i think about it

I never used the first vechile I get

and it can deliver resources, so its just a path to some complex place and I wont need conveyors

[frosty owl]

Interesting, thanks for letting me know ^^

(I haven't used them at max capacity yet, so I'm just going off what I heard so far to update my knowledge)

[copper seal]

i started a map just with my brother and he specifically wanted tractors lol

[vast jungle]

he will get better... you just have to survive long enough 😉

[copper seal]

just make sure you create enough, reliable area for it to drive on and you should be fine

haha ikr

i mean he's learning and getting used to the game

he used to load balance (inefficiently) stuff but he's starting to see the glory of manifolds

that being said I feel like maybe i'm progressing too fast for him

cause hes offline and then I'm like, okay I'll go get some power slugs, then i'm like oh wait i can get some mercer spheres, then i'm like, hey while im out there i can also get some HDs, oh and I can also cheese some early MAM ore for early DD!

and then stuff starts to stack up and before you know it i'm in phase 3 =|

while he's still getting used to manifolds lol

honestly most of the stuff I do when hes not playing is exploration stuff, or just getting us some equipment but i feel like it makes things so much faster

[vast jungle]

yes, first time SF should (most likely) be at a slow pace

[turbid sapphire]

I'm positively confused, how do I obtain Superposition Oscillators?

[vast jungle]

Tier 9 ?

[spark shale]

by crafting it in quantum encoder

[steel knot]

Do you use switching stations to “change” freight cars? I have a location where I have the first freight available for export but the third for import at another. So I’m thinking of an intermediate stop where one car drops off at position 1 and another picks up at 3. Am I over thinking this?

[past reef]

so are you having a factory A that imports something from B using 3rd car and export something to C using 1st car?

you can set load/unload per station freight so that's possible, but you gotta check time to see if you need 2-3 freights, as 3 station trains likely reach 6 minutes for round trip which is not enough for a full mk6 of item

[prisma kraken]

i've thought about it a few times, but it is a lot of space to build

[steel knot]

Yeah. I thought of mixing items since the output is only 100-200 pm

[prisma kraken]

you can use stations to cherry pick some items out of a mixed train

[past reef]

sushi train needs a sink on the other side or else it could clog up with 1 unused type of item

unless you want a good looking track a 200pm transport line is probably nicer with drone though

[prisma kraken]

mixed trains are a little hard to reason about throughput with - different stack sizes filling at different rates are tricky things to calculate

[past reef]

I never really thought about 1 freight with 2 items depositing in 2 different places though

[prisma kraken]

i've used that before - not my favorite

[past reef]

a stable setup would be 16 stacks of each item in the freight car if it's guaranteed 16 stacks won't be used by the RTT, and just fill the entire freight platform with that type of item

yeah probably not my cup of tea, I don't really care about an extra 100MW of power for an extra freight

I had a sushi drone running it close with throughput (236 sheets and 20 casings pm) because of distance I don't wanna mess with something that unstable

[prisma kraken]

what's pretty bad is mixed loads coming out of a station as a sushi belt - that causes some nasty latency

[steel knot]

Yeah I was thinking drone

[prisma kraken]

you can overcome that by sticking a buffer (or two) after the smart splitter when filtering

[steel knot]

This is all for nuclear power where I need like 10s of items per minute and either have to transport them 2km or build out a factory nearby to make them

[prisma kraken]

drone is probably the best for that

[steel knot]

Yeah I did this at my main base. Fills up storage and then tosses the rest after sorting

[past reef]

I would honestly drone every single parts for nuclear setup

[steel knot]

Yeah

[past reef]

if you process the uranium node on site and not gather them in one spot that is

[prisma kraken]

some like silica aren't very easy to transport via drone

[steel knot]

I process uranium at the node. Was going to fly the rods to the nuclear plant and distribute rod fuel to drones for the rest

[prisma kraken]

a drone can handle 300 ore if it is a very short trip

[steel knot]

Luckily I only need about 90-150. I set up a train for that though

[past reef]

the quickwires are the transportation bottleneck for this line (12 stacks per minute on max uranium rod setup) but if you only process on a 600 node it's doable with a double drone regardless of distance

[prisma kraken]

i've used that a few times to get the rocky desert uranium down from the peak

[past reef]

the sulfur for uranium do have to be trained, but the sulfur for plutonium rod can be droned with reasonable distance

[prisma kraken]

for that, you might as well move the copper & caterium ore

[steel knot]

I know it’s distance dependent but how long does a drone operate on a stack of uranium rods?

[past reef]

fused quickwire setup doesn't want to go all over the map with a train though

[steel knot]

Ish

[prisma kraken]

they list consumption at 0.007/min

[steel knot]

Wow really. I though it was 3x larger

[prisma kraken]

i have a feeling that's probably off by a large margin

[steel knot]

Yeah. Even if I assume 0.02 it’s not awful

Doesn’t really impact energy production to siphon off some rods

[prisma kraken]

inverting that, it ends up being 1/143 minutes

[steel knot]

I might be able to just move some of a nearby factory a bit closer to make shipment reasonable

[prisma kraken]

so one rod/min production should get you around 100 drones

[edgy leaf]

I personally plan to use plut rods for that. I don't want to make Perma waste and I don't want to do ficsonium so it's either sink or drones/trucks

I don't like trucks so it's either sink or drones

[steel knot]

I can move the far right iron/steel/copper works closer to the middle uranium casing plant

[prisma kraken]

that's kind of messy b/c you're waiting forever for storage of them to fill

[steel knot]

And ship to the shore

[steel knot]

Yeah I have a full industrial of uranium rods and I’m actually sinking them right now because I had other issues to work on and never got around to finishing nuclear

[prisma kraken]

right

i can say, having used plut rods in trucks before that it gets really radioactive

drone ports will be a lot worse with 18 stacks sitting in the distribution ports

i'm personally still debating what fuel(s) to use for drones

atm, i'm using them solely to distribute yellow fuel for a few tractors

i can categorically say that yellow fuel in drones sucks

like it's really bad, lol

[steel knot]

I’d love to set up batteries but wonder if the juice is worth the squeeze

I do have the classic battery alt. I could ship in sheets since I’m already bringing in sulfur

[prisma kraken]

i'm still leaning towards batteries as default fuel for most things

my plan is to eventually upgrade this rf plant to if, at which point it'll be kicking off a little extra juice i can package

[steel knot]

Yeah I’m thinking 30 should cover it at least for the nuclear plant. Saw the reddit post that says drones consume around 3 per minute

[velvet venture]

guys, what's your go-to for satisfactory blueprints?

[edgy leaf]

@shrewd oar ive isolated it down to a single machine

i had a setup with two water extractors and wet concrete refineries

all machines run perfectly smooth 100% of the time, the extractor always empties fully between each cycle

i make a save and wait 5 minutes, still always empties

then i load the save from 5 minutes ago and instantly theres a bit of excess water in the extractor

[shrewd oar]

so... hm, what... wet concrete refinery?

[edgy leaf]

something in that factory goes out of sync during game load

[shrewd oar]

is it always the same machine or is it machine a one load, machine b next load, machine c next load?

[edgy leaf]

i think it always happened to both extractors, but its been a while since i checked

tho i see drops in excess of 100mw in my power consumption on load throughout my entire grid

im assuming it happens to many machines or maybe all extractors or something like that

[shrewd oar]

that's a lot more than 1 machine or 1 extractor, yeah

does it ever affect your power plant?

i guess that'd be one of the easiest ones to see

[edgy leaf]

i think production also dropped sometimes, im loading up the game rn to check

consumption is easier to see for me because its perfectly flat

i have trains and stuff on a seperate grid, everything else is always perfectly flat on the main grid

[shrewd oar]

my consumption line's never flat but i have seen my power production hiccup on game load... doesn't always happen, just sometimes

then i go look and it's flat

and like i said it's not the first time i've heard others mention it too

so wth is happening there then

also had someone notice a nitrogas pipe from supply would dip during game load

even though it was oversupplied

[edgy leaf]

it went down as far as 370.6

after waiting a bit its perfectly stable at 26.639gw

ive played for hours without ever seeing it dip below that

well ive never seen it dip below that besides after loading the save

[noble hollow]

Is my math wrong or with the takeoff/landing times is the actual speed of a drone quite slow?
To do a full round trip I was calculating that the net m/s is something like:
distanceTraveled/(51*4 + distanceTraveled/fuelSpeed)

If I plug in the fastest fuel speed and chart this out with two distances:

8  km -  21   m/s | Roughly opposite corners of the map
2.5km -   9.6 m/s | Reasonable distance between two factories. 

But if I compare this with belts:

        Drone    | Belt
8  km - 21   m/s | 24   m/s (T6)
2.5km -  9.6 m/s |  9.6 m/s (T4)

Or even if we compare with trains assuming the speed averages out to the "flat" speed:

        Drone    | Belt          | Train
8  km - 21   m/s | 24   m/s (T6) | 27   m/s
2.5km -  9.6 m/s |  9.6 m/s (T4) | 19.4 m/s

Drones are just slow, Ignoring throughput entirely.

So is the real reason to use drones just not needing to build belts/track?

[unborn ermine]

pretty much I think, like me sending the nitrogen from the north west resource well, to 3 different areas, it might be better to do drones than belts or a train.

and for me, two of those areas are on cliffsides of different parts of the map

[noble hollow]

If I add in a bonus section on throughput:

Distance | Stack | Drone    | Belt          | Train (Single Car)
   2.5km |    50 |  104 r/m |  120 r/m (T2) |  744 r/m
   2.5km |   500 | 1040 r/m | 1200 r/m (T6) | 2400 r/m (input/output limited)
   8  km |    50 |   70 r/m |  120 r/m (T2) |  326 r/m
   8  km |   500 |  707 r/m |  780 r/m (T5) | 2400 r/m (input/output limited)

This really drives home that long distance trains are best for bulk movement. And that drones really are for moving mainly where you don't want belts/tracks, though the annoyance of fuel management with drones seems like a major downside.

As all of these numbers are assuming your drones were fed with ionized fuel/plutonium fuel rods. The drone numbers are even worse if you are using slower fuels.

[unborn ermine]

fuel is just, "ok where can use an extra drone port for a fuel delivery chain"

[lilac coral]

I just want to thank Satisfactory for making me relearn how to do LCM by prime factorization today. Lol, probably haven't done it since elementary/middle school.

[white bloom]

I sometimes wonder if for the purpose of arithmetic would it be more convenient to use and write numbers in their prime product form, by default. 🤔

[lilac coral]

Maybe if I were (truely) an AI and I could factor large numbers in a split second, lol.

[spare jolt]

Does the drone have to have any items before it can take off? Or it will go back and forth the same way as trains and cars?

And is there any minimum amount for the drone to take off? Like, will it fly away even with 1 item, or does it need like 10 of them, or the whole stack?

[lilac coral]

It will run empty if it can

[noble hollow]

It does need fuel. But it doesn’t need cargo.

You can provide fuel at the far destination port, but still need to hand feed fuel for the first trip.

[flint lagoon]

And It will stop if it cant unload, if the port is full of items

[spare jolt]

Oh, so it only waits for unload, but not for load?

[flint lagoon]

Yea, it will stay at the port as long it can unload all. Then load if theres any incoming on that port

[magic island]

drones need to unload because of the separated input/output. it can't return to port still carrying the same items that you sent it out with, or things could get messy fast

[stone delta]

Is there an online calcalutor that can compute the smallest possible circuit of splits and mergers for a choke circuit? For example coverting 60 ppm to 15 ppm?

[wind spade]

people mostly just do manifolds, so I doubt so

[magic island]

what do you mean by choke circuit?

you can't rate-limit a single-belt input to a single-belt output that's less than the output belt speed. you can split into all kinds of ratios. but if you're putting 60/min in and there's only one exit, you're gonna get 60/min out

[wind spade]

machines rate-limit your belts already 🙂

[outer iris]

If you mean splitting your belts from 60 pm to 4 belts of 15pm then just do 60/15

[stone delta]

Yes you can. Its called a feedback loop.

[magic island]

you can use loops to get fancy ratio-splits, but it doesn't work for single-input single-output

[outer iris]

What are you trying to achive

You want to take one line down into 15pm and then send the overflow backwards back into the line?

[magic island]

the side belts will back up and then all 60 is gonna start coming out the bottom

[stone delta]

No.

[outer iris]

What is the point, if your goal is to handle overflow then its going to have the same results as if you just put that line directly in

Moving the mass around doesn't change anything

[magic island]

you are merging more than 60 in at the top, which will clog all the belts entering the merger

thus, the clogged side belts will not be able to accept the full rate of items, and they'll flow out the bottom belt instead

[outer iris]

Unless you were turning the input on and off and wanted the backup to be used in the event that that input was off

Your best bet is to have 3 production buildings taking 20 each and if you dont need it all then just sink the excess

[stone delta]

You are wrong good sir.

[outer iris]

Its backed up

[stone delta]

It converts 60 to 20

[outer iris]

By backing it up

[stone delta]

Yes, hence its a choke

[outer iris]

That extra 40 is just hanging out

[stone delta]

Yes, your point?

[outer iris]

Do me a favor and run it straight into where its going

The result should be the exact same

Just humor me please

[stone delta]

I need to convert these non-nice numbers of inputs into nice numbers that round close to them using chokes to minimize the overflow in the sushi lines

[stone delta]

straight into where?

[outer iris]

Are you using a sushi line to run the raw resources to a smelter

[stone delta]

Yes

[vapid gorge]

ok, when the 2 side belts also back up the final output will be 60 since it won't be able to output the middle

[stone delta]

Its still outputing in the middle at a choked limit of 60 to 20

[outer iris]

Why would you want to do that

[magic island]

clock the miners accordingly then

[stone delta]

That doesnt solve the problem.

[outer iris]

That legitimately removes all needs to limit it?

[magic island]

why are you overflowing ore into sushi lines

it's ore

just let the belt back up if you're mining a couple decimal points more than you need

[stone delta]

Not for a stacked bus of blueprints with sushi lines

[stone delta]

Also, that would limit the rest of the avaiable output from the miner

[outer iris]

Putting ore in a sushi line is horrible, if you cant sink it if the line overflows somehow the ore will get through and back up the entire line

[outer iris]

You can turn it up as demand requires

[stone delta]

Its not horrible, many of the best builders in satisfactory use sushline and they always terminate at a overflow sink

[magic island]

they control for the amount of items that go on the belt via clock speeds

[vapid gorge]

even if a choke works, you're limiting the output of the miner xD

[stone delta]

This is the template blueprint that I made. Its designed to be a universal programmable blueprint. It uses Sushi lines that go from buttom to top/

[magic island]

you use overflow to clear excess OFF the sushi line

not to put a random scramble of ores ON the sushi line

[stone delta]

All of you are so wrong, I cannot believe what you are saying. I literally built chokse for this stacked nuclear solution last year. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/927702115411976263/1165404229993775134/image.png?ex=672d33c4&is=672be244&hm=f67c1e214d7ef2637fe981716f65d0c548f3379b8f5b4adbc16e4e28d4c08f48&

There is literaly a guy in this discord called the Sushi Man who is a professional builder in the community.

[outer iris]

I'm not saying your solution is wrong, im just saying it's overcomplicating a simple issue

[magic island]

the way to manage sushi is to keep track of how much is going on the line, and the simplest way to do it is by managing clock speeds

[hollow plank]

i made this platform for my whole nuclear setup... im going to need more platform it only has enough space for the reactors themselves

[stone delta]

That doesn't work for miners, because it limits the total available resources of that miner.

[outer iris]

You

Can turn it up

[magic island]

you're talking about using splitter/merger shenanigans to mitigate how much random extra ore excess goes on the sushi line, when you could just... manually set exactly how much ore goes on the line

[stone delta]

If you turn it up you put too much on the sushi line, this is why you use chokes.

[outer iris]

Then you turn it down

[hollow plank]

you could also turn it to the max and use a smart splitter to handle the overflow

[stone delta]

You are being very disrespectful to Sushi builders in this discord. It is not shenanigans.

[outer iris]

Wouldn't work he wants a set input into a sushi line

[hollow plank]

then dont use a sushi line for that, thats what they arent used for

[outer iris]

I'd say this is disrespectful to people that like efficiency

You're consuming excess power and backing up a line for no discernible reason when you could just use the excuse to make something else and sink it or not produce the excuse

[stone delta]

Wow. I cannot believe you just said that. There is no excess power being consumed.

[magic island]

if you want a set amount of ore to go on the sushi line to ensure it doesn't clog up, then clock the miner to that amount of ore

what you seem to be looking for is a way to mine some arbitrarily higher amount of ore, and then still limit it to an exact amount

which....

????????

[stone delta]

No that is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that is a very very very bad design strategy. You are essentially limiting the resources from that miner for all other factories because it was too much of an inconvenience to simply build a choke off the splitter from the miner.

[outer iris]

If there's going to be other factories taking up the excess whats the point of the choke

[magic island]

if you need more ore from that node later, increase the clock speed and split off the extra amount you want

[stone delta]

To prevent oversaturation of the sushi line

Ok so. I am done arguing. Its clear you guys don't know the answer to my question and do not seem interested in mastering the skill of designing sophisticated sushi lines.

[outer iris]

The maths is dividing the input value by the desired output then convert that number to splitters and mergers (Load Balancing) then handle the overflow/excess of the remaining lines

[magic island]

even the most sophisticated sushi line ever devised generally still involves knowing how much you want to put on the belt, and clocking the source machines accordingly

[hollow plank]

btw, how should i handle my nuclear inputs to the reactors, theres 100 of them and each needs 600 water so i cant manifold the water

[magic island]

Easiest way: build your Nuclear reactors on the water, hook up each one to two overclocked extractors. One reactor is the same width as two extractors, so it lines up pretty tidy.

[hollow plank]

ok

[stone delta]

You will need one pipe per reactor attached to at least 2 water extractors per reaction. I reccommed using shards. You can make it space efficient if you put the reactor above the water extractors. The water extractors can be placed facing each other with a shared pipe junction to safe space. I recommend using the copy paste method on satisfactory world builder with the built in coordinate positioner to speed it up. The rods can be either manifolded or split balanced depending on how quickly you want the system to equilibrate. Here is a 5 way balanced spliter.

[stone delta]

https://satisfactory-calculator.com/en/interactive-map

[hollow plank]

splitting is not gonna work with 50 rods a minute

id have to do so much splitting

[stone delta]

Not really, you just need 100 = 5 x 5 x 2 x 2 , and you can blueprint the 5 way splitter.

[outer iris]

Manifold

[stone delta]

You can use a manifold, but it might take an hour before the last reactor in the manifold receives a steady stream of rods.

[hollow plank]

bro.... i have 100 nuclear reactors whats the worst that can happen if all 100 of them arent on immediatly, i wont irradiate the world as fast?

lol

[stone delta]

if there is a mistake in the factory that jams and you ahve to restart the reactor, it can take a while for the reactors to be fully turned on, this is further intentisfied if there is a lot of waste backed up

[hollow plank]

waste wont ever back up trust me
famous last words

[stone delta]

waste backs up if you made an error in the design of your waste managment factory

[magic island]

this is where 3-smooth numbers really shine. 100 reactors? ugh, that's 5x5x2x2. perfectly doable when you know how to make a 5-way balancer, but annoying to do two layers of them.

but 96 or 108 reactors? easy street

[livid valve]

Do floor holes still fuck things up? had a pet coke factory working at ~98% bc of water constraints, I upgraded the pipes to mk2 (simply clicking on them to upgrade) and all of a sudden all of the coke gens stopped getting anything more than ~2m^3 water per minute for some reason

[hollow plank]

yeah, but i can just make a rlly big storage buffer

also i wont make an error, those things dont slip my mind

[magic island]

tbh it's worse to store waste in a buffer because it just takes longer to notice there's a problem, and once it finally breaks you have this massive surplus of waste now

[hollow plank]

have a smart splitter at halfway to send overflow to your main base and then back, that way you can see the problem when it begins to happen

or better yet, make a simple coal generator, dont hook it up to your main grid, then feed overflow nuclear waste (from a 1 storage container storage) into the coal belt and then when the fuse trips you will get a notification

just make sure your running at least one machine (could litterally be a train station)

[main shuttle]

so how did they optimize the engine to be able to handle so much more than it did in EA?

[jovial jacinth]

Not sure I understand this picture.....how is 60 in creating 140 out? (the S box...splitter, I guess?)

[fringe pawn]

I believe foundations and walls are treated very differently now

[main shuttle]

seems like foliage is too, otherwise my game would have been absolutely destroyed a long time ago

[wheat lake]

this should work right? (fuel is fed from middle then goes down and across )

[solid kindle]

Yeah

[pure crow]

Ore is both the best thing to put on a sushi belt (because it has no production time, power, or limitations embodied in it, and thus is low cost to sink) and the worst (because it can be extracted in such high volume that it does not benefit significantly in throughput from merging with other ores). The latter is usually the more important thing to consider and in practical usage, involving only belts, negates the utility of a sushi belt for ore. But at the same time, it implies that if you have a method of transport (i.e. trains) with very high throughput relative to the local ore rates, of many varieties, then it may be reasonable to sushi belt ore into and out of the train...

(that said, I don't especially like making sorters or super-mergers)

[cinder mango]

How do you guys use trains? Do you get all the raw resources to a central factory? or Do you make mini factories on nodes then transfer them around to other factories?

[stone delta]

it creates 20 out

[jovial jacinth]

it has 3 outputs showing 60/60/20, tho....hence my confusion

And I confess to being a touch slow and not understanding the purpose

[pulsar notch]

For my dune desert run, I used trains finally, to ship aluminum from the swamp up to the main factory. Later I added plastic just because it was otherwise going to get sunk, and then nitrogen.

[vapid gorge]

once flooded? maybe. manifolds can be murdered when you have fluid elevations in them.
you also want to loop your main manifold

like this

[cinder mango]

how did you move everything else?

[wheat lake]

huh ok i didnt know that

[cinder mango]

Im a new player so I just dont know how to go abt it

[pulsar notch]

Well, I ended up belting most other stuff. I did a truck route for quartz because the desert's mostly flat enough a truck route was pretty straightforward. I might add a truck route for SAM, too, belting it down from the highlands or out of the mesa to a truck stop.

I don't believe I've ever needed to loop manifolds like that.

[vapid gorge]

you often need to preflood a system, generally by down clocking a few machines, until all machines and pipes are full and having a loop in the manifold like the picture

[vapid gorge]

long belts are totally fine especially when you're new 🙂

[cinder mango]

when do you use trains and stuff?

[pure crow]

They're totally entirely different modes of production that require different approaches.

I argue that megafactories are simpler to understand once you have an "expansion protocol" in place -- an expansion protocol is, simply put, just a methodical way to copy and paste things over and over, it is not as hard as it sounds. But since a lot of people don't have an expansion protocol (and build instead, in ever expanding squares on the same floor, which can be shown, with a basic effect of the imagination, to conflict with other expanding squares before long) they don't usually prefer that.

Remote factories, on the other hand... (to be continued)

... require planning. Extensive planning and scoping out of the terrain. The "purpose" of remote factories is three-fold, they open up the usage of space -- space that is compatible with aforementioned "expanding square" builds (i.e. builds with no expansion protocol). Second, they can, in theory, reduce the size and complexity of the actual centralized factory, or where one does not exist, the network of factories that act as a centralized factory. Third, they "compress" resources to higher-density resources (and density's definition may vary, either in stack size or belt throughput requirements)...

In other words, to make a "proper" remote factory, you need to look at what you have, what you're compressing to, and where you're transferring from, and what else may be needed to compress something. But you get the benefit of not having to worry about space, or expansion, and so forth.

[past reef]

If you need a factory with more than 3 stacks per minute of input transported I'd use train

[pure crow]

So the question of a remote factory is often --- can you successfully compress to something more advanced? And if so, a remote factory may be optimal. This is almost certainly the case for, for example, ||Aluminum. It compresses water, bauxite, and coal to up to 1-4 Aluminum Products, or even just Aluminum Ingot. This vastly simplifies the supply chain.||

[proud totem]

Does my math sound correct?
Regular aluminum recipes gives 1 bauxite (plus some silica) -> 1 aluminum ingot
Sloppy alumina + pure aluminum ingot gives 10 bauxite -> 9 aluminum ingots

So you go down to 90% efficiency with your bauxite and coal for a simpler setup, but no silica?

[past reef]

Spoiler ingot has the same stack size compared to the ore though, transport line for that chain relies on whether or not you want to boost it with quartz

Yeah pretty much, if you can you should do electrode scrap to maintain 100% "efficiency"

[vapid gorge]

I'll sometimes use 1 or 2 trains at some point if I feel like moving a ton of items, but a long belt or two is usually enough. a handful of drones plus belts was all I needed for finishing tier 9

I'll use trucks and more drones and trains when working off a big final plan

[pure crow]

Yeah, on the metric of stack size alone, it's not necessarily compressed. That's why I said the definition of "compression" & "density" may vary a lot.

[proud totem]

I was afraid you'd say that. RIP me

[past reef]

However even normal electrode normal (with low silica) yields like 10% more than no silica line

[vapid gorge]

yoru new best friend https://www.satisfactorytools.com/1.0/production

[proud totem]

I've used this a lot before, but sometimes I like doing math by hand lol

[past reef]

Transport is an issue though, it will depend on your location to see if its worth quartzing or not

[pure crow]

On the other hand, for instance, it doesn't really make sense to turn Iron Ore into, say, pure Iron Ingot before transporting, or, in a sense even worse, Screws. These have increased in number relative to the ore; instead of compression, it has expanded.

[proud totem]

Would not have been able to build this recycled plastic/rubber plant without it 😂

[pulsar notch]

You know, on the topic of density, I read that someone ships quickwire by train. That's one of those products that I can't see shipping, ever, instead of making on-site. Caterium and copper? Sure, train those from nodes to the main factory, but quickwire?

[vapid gorge]

I mean... it's fine? you just wind up with less filled cars unless it's a very long trip

and if it's a very long trip you probably don't need multiple trains doing the same route

[leaden cosmos]

They drone well. The 500 stack size means you can easily saturate a mk6 belt

[vapid gorge]

yup.

I'd have to look at the ratio of ingots to wire? does 1 stack of cat ingots make more than 1 stack of wire?

[leaden cosmos]

If you want a higher rate of items per drone. Ingots win. Just means a floor of constructors on the recieving end

[stone nebula]

why do people say pipes or fluids are very hard?

[leaden cosmos]

I know, right
They can get tricker with byproducts or poor math

[vapid gorge]

because a lot of people make messy pipes and then it's hard

they treat them like belts

[stone nebula]

ohhh

[vapid gorge]

like, are basic reliable pipes hard? no
are they if you build them like belts?
yes

[stone nebula]

when i first got to tier 4

i was confused as hell cause i wasent getting any water from the water extracter

and it was because the pipes were very vertical

[vapid gorge]

basic headlift yup.

Have you built a fuel power station yet?

[stone nebula]

no

what is that

[vapid gorge]

thats often where people's first pipe mess happen

[vapid gorge]

burning fuel for power

[stone nebula]

is that with coal generators or the refine stuff

[vapid gorge]

refineries

coal power burns coal for power

[stone nebula]

oh ye

[vapid gorge]

refineries make fuel for fuel generators

[stone nebula]

i remember now those were a life savior

when i was making nuclear power

[vapid gorge]

and you didn't have any issues with your fuel power? nice

[stone nebula]

not really my only issue was figuring out to make fluids go vertical

but i figured that out

[vapid gorge]

cool 🙂 you sure everything was stable and not stuttering? you often need a manifold loop to get them that way

although if you have quite short manifolds you often don't need them

[stone nebula]

well that was in my old save im starting a new one cause of the story

im at tier 4 rn and almost done with phase 2

[unborn ermine]

Partially why I skipped straight to rocket fuel, no mess with pumps, and manifold loops can be "flat" between floors.

[stone nebula]

no idea what a manifold is

[vapid gorge]

just go nuclear 😛

[vapid gorge]

do you ever have lines of belts with splitters feeding machines?

[stone nebula]

yea

[vapid gorge]

thats a manifold

like so

[unborn ermine]

Funny enough I havent done nuclear before and I legit only had aluminum ingots being made, no heavy plastic/rubber yet either

[stone nebula]

oh uh

i have it like that just 10x less organized

[prisma kraken]

manifold is technically any container that makes something available to something else. in context of the game, it is a belting configuration that doesn't split evenly and relies on machine overflow to get goods to flow to where they need to go

[stone nebula]

only thing i had a problem in was organization

nuclear power was in tier 5 and 6 right?

[prisma kraken]

nuke is t7&8

i think base nuclear is t7 & recycling plut is t8

[stone nebula]

aw so the hard part is phase 2

at least based off how far ive gotten

say do mercers spheres and somersloops respawn or is there just enough to get the mam tree full

[unborn ermine]

You have enough spheres for around 200ish depots

sloops is around 103 iirc

and if you had some respawn... ho boy

[deep jacinth]

okay so im gunna be super pedantic here, dont take it seriously.
Its called a manifold because in Euclidean geometry its a line with a one-to-many relationship, where a single input is provided to many outputs

[prisma kraken]

that's fine, i'm more going with the common sense real world definition vs the pure math one 🙂

[deep jacinth]

but I have to make use of my math degree somewhere 😦

just kidding I don't have a math degree

[prisma kraken]

i do

i also have an engineering degree, and i feel the engineering definition is much more accessible

as the math joke goes 'a topologist can't tell the difference between a coffee cup and a doughnut'

[pastel obsidian]

That's funny

[pastel obsidian]

My factorio degree is basically an introduction to computer science

Shapez 2 is a degree in supply chain management

[deep jacinth]

I agree with both of those

factorio is gate logic, shapez is a primer in JIT engineering

[prisma kraken]

i guess that makes satisfactory analog circuitry 🙂

[deep jacinth]

Satisfactory is a big pressure transducer

im bullshitting here so again dont take me seriously. Where input is unlimited the output is dependent on the perceived input and is limited by the pressure signal received from that input. Higher input = higher pressure signal = higher output.

Thank you for coming to my TEDTalk.

[pastel obsidian]

Can you imagine a world where you get extra credit based on achievements you have in game

[deep jacinth]

I want to say there was a company out there that bought its employees a copy of Factorio because they felt it taught pertient skills... let me see if I can find the article

Shopify

I tried to post the link but it was removed; google it, Shopify CEO authorized the company to buy the game for their employees lol

[pastel obsidian]

That's so sick

There is a game farmer was replaced, that teaches you coding fundamentals and is addictive

[edgy leaf]

Minecraft is peak programming game

it taught me lua with mining turtles and logic gates with redstone

[deep jacinth]

redstone go hard

[pastel obsidian]

Brings me back to the tekkit days

[jovial jacinth]

Is there a way to get Satisfactory Tools to make this graph "smarter" ?https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1299927940074700840/1303956025921241109/image.png?ex=672da32e&is=672c51ae&hm=dde3b59487cd22d3cbedf2b9a02329dfa3081d67bb1f93d140f7d2bd986bba8d&

The 600 water should all go to the refineries then the byproduct should go to the wet concrete....obv this example is easy enough to figure it out, but on a more complex setup I'm curious how to get the output to display better

[wind spade]

it doesn't really matter which water goes where

[jovial jacinth]

I mean, it doesn't, but the flow is simpler if the byproduct goes straight to something else instead of looping back

[wind spade]

or viewed from the other point, if the byproduct is contained in the alu factory, this could be split into two factories

[pastel obsidian]

There are other tools but it takes more time to make it look the way you want them to

[wind spade]

the Tool can't really know what logistic decisions you've taken

[magic island]

it kinda does, in the sense that your exact implementation / layout / per-machine clocking matters a lot in a byproduct loop

whereas there are fewer points of failure if the water is not looped at all

but yeah there's no way for the solver to find the "best" way to allocate fresh/recycled water here

[fringe pawn]

Mostly I would love a way to just hide all water lines to declutter. The tooltip is plenty.

[wind spade]

I mean that for the Tool it doesn't matter. For you it might, but that's already affected by logistical decisions. The Tool isn't a logistical planner, it's a calculator

[pastel obsidian]

There are some factory planner tools that might be a better fit for you

[main shuttle]

are the chainsaw-able mushrooms supposed to drop mycelia?

[pastel obsidian]

Yes

It had for a long time, the coral drops silica if I'm not mistaken

[main shuttle]

the medium-ish size ones don't seem to drop anything

[vapid gorge]

<@&387163995947270144>

[magic island]

ma'am this is a wendy's

[blazing wraith]

👀

[cinder silo]

Beat mne to it there bud.

[blazing wraith]

Hmmmmmmmm

[fringe seal]

meh. another one into the blocklist

[vapid gorge]

gotta be fast on teh draw

[vapid gorge]

yeah, massive wanker

[fringe seal]

tagged, screencapped, blocked

[cinder silo]

And nuked! 😄 ❤️ <@&387163995947270144>

[fierce ruin]

https://tenor.com/view/kamala-harris-this-is-unbelievable-shake-head-laughing-disbelief-gif-4204935598384106725

[vast jungle]

damn... I look away from #math-and-meta for a few minutes and missed the mods smiting someone 😉

[blazing wraith]

Rules are there for a-following

[fierce ruin]

https://tenor.com/view/fake-news-trump-gif-22804577

[loud trellis]

Is there even enough material on the map for this production? I'm scared that if there isn't I'll be building this for nothing

[vast jungle]

this should be the current map limit (without Conversion)

[latent anchor]

why is water so high? Placeholder value?

[vapid gorge]

Because there’s basically infinite water

[vapid gorge]

Use satisfactorytools.com and find out

[latent anchor]

I still think it should just say it's effectively infinite, instead of a weird number like that

inf works better than a random number imo

[vapid gorge]

Maybe it needs some limit to function

Also explain how it would work better without a number?

[latent anchor]

it wouldn't necessarily work better, it's just more informative that you don't need to worry about it

doesn't need changing though, I just find it strange

[frosty owl]

I don't recall the precision or how it was calculated, but there is a maximum amount of water one can get in the game. The map is limited and so are water surfaces to snap Extractors to

[latent anchor]

it's easier to figure out how much water can be used

[livid robin]

apparently that number is the max numeric value javascript can store or something

[latent anchor]

interesting

[livid robin]

google the number and youll see what i mean

idk anything about coding lol

[vast jungle]

the number you see is the largest number Javascript can handle... "infinity" is not a normal number

[frosty owl]

Easier than calculating a max? Sure...
The point of having a limit for water is that the user can mess with it (eg: maximize this production using only X water/min)

[latent anchor]

I'm pretty sure they can just override it, it's not a change that needs to happen but the number does result in confusion (even though I know how to program a decent amount of Javascript I did not know that number)

[vast jungle]

math operations do (if they work at all) strange things when "infinity" is involved... so "make it as large as possible" is a valid strategy

[latent anchor]

easier than figuring out exactly how many extractors you can place on such a large map

[vast jungle]

the water limit is so large on the map that its practically meaningless... you are always limited by other resources

[frosty owl]

Sure
I don't think that's relevant to many, as I said the point of having a limit in the planner (that isn't just endless), is being able to change it to one's needs

[latent anchor]

yeah, you can add more over the requirement of other resources into a design too, right?

[frosty owl]

"Add more over"?
I'm not sure what you're trying to say

[vast jungle]

you can pretend you have more resources than you have on the map...

which might be useful together with a Mod

[latent anchor]

for that reason I think the water limit doesn't matter as long as it's either accurate or a number that appears like a filler number (like 999999999)

I'm just a pedant though

(not in a "oh no, you're trying to suggest I'm too specific in what I want!" kind of way but instead in a "I know I'm a pedant even outside this convo" type of way)

[vast jungle]

in the code its most likely just a constant pre-defined by the language... ( MAX_SAFE_INTEGER )

and it needs to be "not infinite", otherwise the optimization algorithm will break

[latent anchor]

yep, I don't believe it matters, only that it's not the best choice of number

doesn't need changing, but if I were there picking it I would've picked differently most likely

gonna afk for a second

[vast jungle]

I think from a technical point of view its perfect... and building a "number only" input element that also allows for "infinity" would be quite a bit of work for a hobby project

[livid robin]

the numbers probably just autogenerate based on the game code they plug in if i had to guess. i doubt they manually change them.

[vast jungle]

I don't think these numbers are in the game files... you can generate them from the map except for water of course

[latent anchor]

in that case they would have to make an exception for water, as it has nodes but the vast bulk of it is in the seas

[livid robin]

oh makes sense

[vast jungle]

limiting water can be very useful when you start in the Green Plains... until you get to "Coal Lake West" you are limited in terms of water quite hard ^^

(especially for coal power)

or sometimes its good to limit the water to "one pipe" and see whats possible

[thick plank]

Id say your less limited in respects to water when you play in grasslands then when you play in most other biomes.

You dont even have to fight any enemies for getting to the ocean with a ramp up the waterfall

[frosty owl]

My whole point was that the user may want to change that for their own factory plan ^^
What the max number actually is doesn't quite matter (imo) as there's no way one would need that much water, unless they intend to make a factory making only packaged water or something

[latent anchor]

yeah, my point is that while the user can limit/delimit how much water is available, and the program's current values don't need changing, having a number that's either more visibly a very large placeholder or something closer to what you can actually get/use could be good

[frosty owl]

Ah, gotcha

[remote flame]

Satisfactory tools just uses the number 9,007,199,254,740,991 as a limiter to say it's infinite yeah, = 2^53 if anyone was curious where that number comes from lol

Obviously water is not infinite in satisfactory, but since I like doing useless maths no-one needs to know, why not find a closer number. for people who want it for some weird reason..

West map; Just roughly tracing the map making sure im not too close to the beaches, you have the potential of 6.5km^2
North map; Probably a bit generous but roughly 4.3km^2
East map; Approx. 2.3km^2 (accounting for some water dead-zones near the swamp biome)
South map; Not really any worth recording since grass fields is pretty minimalistic. Let's be generous and assume 8000m^3 worth of water (overclocked too), you'll see why being generous means absolutely nothing in the big picture of things.
Mid map, ponds, etc; I eyeballed the lakes/rivers and merged them as best as possible in to one location (love photoshop) and got roughly 2.5km^2, but I highly doubt you can get extractors so close to the shore lines so let's just say 2km^2

So without going super analytical, it's about 15.6km^2, each water extractor is 20m*19.5m (we dont care about height) = 0.00039km^2
Which I feel like this is funny how 15.6/0.00039 comes out to exactly 40,000 water extractors but oh well lmao
Each water extractor maxed to 250% is 300 m^3/min, so 12,000,000m^3/min + 8000m^3 (grass fields) + 13,125m^3 (water wells) = 12,021,125m^3 /min

and now you have a number that no-one will realistically be able to hit, but is fairly accurate for the map

[wind spade]

the number is Number.MAX_SAFE_INTEGER, which is biggest integer javascript can handle without losing precision. It was quick'n'dirty solution to "I'm lazy to properly implement infinity". whichever number it is, it doesn't matter for the Tool, since it weights it as 0 anyway (well, 0.000001, so that it still optimises for smaller water usage in case there's multiple ways to do something and they differ only by water input).

For new Tools, there's plan to make a proper infinity setting, but I don't see a reason to change the number in old tools

[leaden cosmos]

Looking over what I can of the map,

Getting all pure ingots and max concrete would be around 150K/min water

Map limit constrained max sloop max nuclear would eat almost 1 million water per minute, so probably its own ocean 😄

[leaden cosmos]

I assume that its main side effect is it makes water very cheap to the planner as its highly available?

[remote flame]

Yeah the top Left of map is a very popular region for nuclear, that area alone is above 3,000,000m^3 /min haha (plus being flat, open real estate)

[wind spade]

the weights are not changeable in current Tools, and water has hardcoded weight as 0. If the weights were calculated from the numbers inputted in the limits, then yes, it would be because of that

[leaden cosmos]

https://www.satisfactorytools.com/1.0/production?share=7oCGvDwi8mT0qIkBvWOY
Found one of the weird states while playing around, curious why it made byproducts / chains that have no relation to the main production

[wind spade]

extra byproducts are often because of "maximise" usage (not recommended, change to items/min)

[stone delta]

Here is a picture of it working. 60 goes in, and it gets split into 20,20,20, and two 20s get get fed back into the merger, causing 60-20-20 = 20 to only be allowed to continue past the circuit, hence it converts 60 to 20, which i refer to as a choke. It has the purpose of limiting input of ores from a miner unto a sushi line without oversaturating the sushi line and still allowing the miners to be overclocked and utilized elsewhere.

[serene pollen]

did someone math out how many hours it would take to drain the entire map?

[fringe seal]

going from this
(but you literally can't drain the ocean, the water level will stay)
12000000 / 300 = 40000 water extractors
assuming very generously that you install one per second, that's 11 hours of doing nothing but installing the water extractors
and don't forget to power them and OC them afterwards!

[vapid gorge]

infinite

[terse stone]

Can't you also place some water extractors below others underwater?

[serene pollen]

oh i misread lol thx

[terse stone]

First passing test of function that draws the connections of all recipes and items given a target production item (in this case 'Iron Ore').

With this network list, the next step will be to define all possible production paths and select one based on desired production goals.

[marsh needle]

alright, so I'm looking to get started on a decently sized nuclear power plant, anyone got a good design for me to implement?

gonna use the two normal nodes around the centre of the map for 1200 ore

[past reef]

you need materials from too many sources I wouldn't try to put them all in one place

this is max uranium you can scale back the numbers

when you scale back into one normal uranium node per processing place you technically can do all transportation via drone except sulfur

[marsh needle]

neat thanks

it's not actually max uranium tho right, u can make more in converter from bauxite

i still need to deal with the waste right?

[past reef]

yeah waste is a separate line with plutonium

[past reef]

yeah I could, but bauxite is another map restricted resource for trigon later on so I didn't want to assume

for plutonium if you want the waste to be all dealt with using ficsonium you'd only be able to make barely 10 per min per map before converting

you have to grab extra sulfur from somewhere else but those parts are low enough stack per min that you can do full drone transport line

[steel knot]

Does power sharding a power generation building have any additional consequences other than higher burn rate?

Seemed the only downside was using a shard so was just wondering

[wind spade]

nah just that

[steel knot]

Sweet

I don’t want to find space for 6 more nuclear power plants

[jovial jacinth]

Ah, I just built this so I could see what it was for. I assume it's to ensure that you're only bleeding off 20 ore for a project or something. I just prefer to clock my machine correctly, personally, as it's less things I need to build (just need the belt into the machine, no splitters/mergers), but it's the same end result. Also could be really complicated if you're bleeding off a strange # like 12/m using your method.

[worldly granite]

Guys i just finished phase 2 and got steel running but i dont know if it is enough

How much would i need

[magic island]

for what

like, the things you "need" to make in this game are

• construction mats (a small steady supply of each one will do, and can be accomplished with very few nodes)
• project parts (only needed in fixed amounts, so the rate produced is up to you)

[worldly granite]

ok thx

[magic island]

also, because of the way miners and belts get upgraded throughout the game, resources from existing nodes increase. so if you're worried that the nodes you've mined won't last you the whole game, bear in mind that their ore output will double and then double again as you progress

[worldly granite]

i think i did to much already

but thx

[wind spade]

my recommended approach is to not think about "how much I'll need in the future", because that question is almost impossible to answer
better is to just think "how much I need now" and build exactly that much

[worldly granite]

ok

[molten gyro]

Plan on how you could expand your current plant in the future. Plus, due to miner and belt limits, you wouldn't be able to make "enough for the future" without stretching out across the map.

[wind spade]

I wouldn't even plan for expanding. If you always build what you need at that moment, you (in most cases) never need to expand

[molten gyro]

I meant leave room to plop down more foundries if you end up needing more later

[wind spade]

if you need more later, you make another factory

[molten gyro]

Nothing wrong with expanding a current factory and reusing infrastructure already connected

Are you a player that brings all the raw resources to one place?

[wind spade]

no?

I follow independency

[molten gyro]

Well, expanding existing bases is a good idea for some playstyles

[wind spade]

sure, but not my recommendation

[molten gyro]

My recommendation. If you expand a steel plant, you can put all that new steel on train b that goes to factory b you're building while the already built steel takes line a to factory a

[wind spade]

and in my case the steel for B is at B, not at A

[molten gyro]

Do you use large train networks?

[wind spade]

not much

I build at nodes

[molten gyro]

Well there we go. Expanding existing factories doesn't make sense for you.

[stone nebula]

anyone have tips for getting very far ores or gasses or fluids to the main area faster?

[wind spade]

use them where you found them

[wind spade]

I know... that's what I've been saying the whole time

[stone nebula]

ye but if i do that ill have to bring some ore all the way over there if it needs to be in a manufacturer or assembler

[magic island]

in my view it generally makes sense to expand on an existing factory site when the game suddenly doubles the ore available from the nodes (and then does that again), but thats just me

[molten gyro]

Ores: trains. Also consider smelting them to ingots firsr.

Gases: trains are less great for transportationing fluifs, but you can package and unpackage very efficiently

[stone nebula]

are trains like efficent will it get enough to last for it to get back?

[wind spade]

what I am building is not dictated by available resources, but by demand. I see no reason to double production just because I can. I double production when I need double production

[wind spade]

if you build it properly, yes

[molten gyro]

They're very efficient. But if a freight car can't carry enough, you can add a second freight car, or a third

Or use two trains on the same line

[magic island]

I'm not saying "double production just because you can"

I'm saying "if you need some more copper for your next project, and you just unlocked Mk2 miners, go upgrade an existing copper miner"

[scenic cloud]

Then split the output and build a second factory with it

[wind spade]

sure. But I don't consider miner to be part of factory. For me factory is thing that converts raw resources to final product

so by "doubling factory", I imagine "expand the existing machines to handle double input"

while I'd rather split the input at miner and build a separate factory

[magic island]

I said "doubles the ore available"

[wind spade]

well you said "game doubles ores"

which I read as "I have unlocked better miners"

[molten gyro]

With mk 3 miners

[wind spade]

but in the same message, you said "expand existing factory", which is what I was pointing at

[magic island]

factory site

what I meant was: when the game gives you more supply in the places where you already have infrastructure, it makes sense to use that supply

isntead of going "rats, I gotta expand to a new node, I've already got an Mk1 miner here"

[wind spade]

I've never said you shouldn't expand to another node

my point is to never expand factories, which (as I mentioned above) excludes miners

[molten gyro]

What difference is it if you smelt the ore at the node instead of the factory? Some of my "factories" are only raw resource into the ingot

[wind spade]

every "factory" I have ends at final product. I doubt ingot is your final product, so that wouldn't happen in the way I'm describing

[molten gyro]

So are we arguing semantics then?

[wind spade]

no, I'm just saying you're describing a situation I wouldn't have

[violet halo]

Not semantics per se, but clarifying definitions.

[scenic cloud]

I do often just slap smelters next to the miner and belt the ingots around, but that doesn't work quite as well once you go for alts

[molten gyro]

But a situation the player 30 minutes ago may have x.x

[wind spade]

and my recommendation was to not do it that way 🤷

[molten gyro]

It's powerful strategy if they play other styles x.x

[wind spade]

it's a recommendation, they can do whatever they want

but they came asking for help, so I responded in the way I personally believe is very good approach to the game

[brisk smelt]

because making 6 steps in a production chain up to tier 5 parts is just asking for stuff to go wrong

imagine how many trains

[molten gyro]

The original question was "how much steel do you need" and my suggestion was "as much as you need/can at the moment, plan to expand your foundries if you need more steel later. Leave space aside."

[brisk smelt]

ah ic

[pulsar lagoon]

the game is crashing using the blueprint machine

after today update, someone else having this problem?

[violet halo]

I expand my 'factories' by floor. I build a single floor of a thing, that takes up the belt size I want it to use.

[molten gyro]

In eaely access, I mostly built a mega base, but I produced aluminum off site, in the titan forest. I built in such a way that expanding it was nightmarish x_x

[wind spade]

megabases are always hard logistically

hence why I recommend the independence way where factories do not depend on each other

[proud totem]

I like having independent but slightly coupled factories. E.g. a factory that makes steel pipes and encased beams sends those pipes and beams to another factory that makes HMFs

Though I did run into an interesting problem last night. My trains "deadlocked" around some path signals. Not an actual deadlock, as in the logical sense, since the train by all means should've been able to move, but didn't for some reason. All I had to do was manually move it forward a bit and everything cleared up

[wind spade]

well by "independent" I mean "factories do not produce for other factories", so if you have factories sending things to other factories, they are not independent in my eyes 🙂

[prisma kraken]

megabases always need gobs of space for belts

[proud totem]

Fair. I guess some of my factories are "independently operating" in that, my steel will continue to do its thing regardless of what uses it. Then other factories request resources from it via a train, therefore coupling them, but really only in one-direction

[prisma kraken]

"independent ballistic warp drive factory" 🤔

[proud totem]

And then I can also swap out one steel factory for another if I build a better one

something something Service Provider Pattern something something OOP something something

[prisma kraken]

i do similar, but i've recently taken to having a few sink stations as the terminal point for nearly every train that moves products btw factories

[proud totem]

I created a "resource dump" that was a station with a bunch of sinks. Most trains go there to unload excess. Though I had to stop sending every train there because it caused so much traffic

[prisma kraken]

i'm kind of going hard on the trainifolds in this playthrough

[proud totem]

Same

I think I just need a huge landfill trainyard where I can send each train to an independent dump so minimize traffic

Or just keep trains stocked and put the sinks on the input side

[prisma kraken]

a lot of that is to compensate for the fact that mk6 belts sometimes are missing items for me

[proud totem]

I just got MK5 lol. I'm probably gonna try to really only use mk6 for loading/unloading directly to stations, and for getting things from miners

Or for some weird belt merging/splitting stuff

Always nice to have extra overhead for that sort of thing

[prisma kraken]

i use them a bit more than that, but my belt hotkey is still bound to mk5's

[proud totem]

Yeah, I feel like anything more than a saturated MK5 belt (again, unless for dealing with special logistics on MK5s) is likely overkill in some way. Especially with trains. I highly doubt you can reliably use a single car with anything more than a MK5 belt's worth of input before you get throughput issues. At that point just use multiple cars

[prisma kraken]

well, pushing a train car of a 100 stack item much past 600/min is around their capacity

[wind spade]

service provider is antipattern

[prisma kraken]

my rubber train has 4 cars of 900/min and my concrete one is 4 cars of 1080/min

[proud totem]

I'm just gonna make everything a global singleton at this point

[prisma kraken]

you're making me twitch

[wind spade]

how are you not fired yet (if you have job at IT)

[prisma kraken]

that's the 'i read chapter one of "Design Patterns" and stopped' programming

[proud totem]

I do work as a programmer. I've unfortunately seen way worse code than I ever thought possible

[prisma kraken]

so you work as a programmer 🙂

[wind spade]

so don't recommend service locator

dependency injection ftw

[proud totem]

That was kinda what my sarcastic remark about everything being a global singleton was. More or less what a service provider is

[proud totem]

I love that (more or less, still being somewhat sarcastic here) dependency injection is just fancy talk for "pass it as an argument"

[prisma kraken]

i have to say, the absolute worst code i've ever seen was in some hacked up chinese version of a bios implementation #include "definitions.doc"

[proud totem]

Though I think actually now that I've thought about it more, what I described before would likely fit the strategy pattern way more

[wind spade]

well... yes but actually no

dependency injection is basically inversion of control

[prisma kraken]

i also really dislike the concept of design patterns

words penned by Milton Erickson about something totally different fit: "The map is not the territory"

[proud totem]

I think on a basic level they can be useful. Moreso that they get you thinking about designing software in a more resuable way. But at the same time, if you do it wrong and take it to far you get AbstractFactoryLocatorFactoryObserver...

At the end of the day, we gotta actually write the code. Can't just think about it for hours on end

(But obviously you gotta think some or else you aren't gonna be able to keep working on it)

[wind spade]

I just outsource all DI stuff to a framework

[prisma kraken]

when you try to rigidly taxonimize and classify every methodology, you end up creating a rigid thought process that isn't creative and may not be the best solution to a problem

[proud totem]

That's why I like some of the basic design patterns like state, strategy and observer, since they can be a bit more widely used and are simple enough to use in smaller settings

[prisma kraken]

of course, we often need to do this on teams with certain cultures and sometimes those culture are ones that like uniformity, unoriginality and group-think

[wind spade]

honestly DI is just universal solution to a "I want an instance of this" problem. Yes, most design patterns have limited use in limited cases, but with DI it's just the ultimate solution 😄

[proud totem]

Oh and decorator (I think) is what entity-component systems use

ECS is amazing (at least for game dev!)

[molten gyro]

When I program, I subscribe to K.I.S.S

[proud totem]

That's why I don't use the visitor pattern

But imagine getting to use an actual OOP language. At work 99% of what we do is in PLSQL 💀

[molten gyro]

The only real oop language is Smalltalk and Java. All others are object-optional :^)

[proud totem]

My college was super Java-heavy. And also probably pretty outdated too. Thinks like the singleton (anti)pattern were taught as if they were the best option

[molten gyro]

I think the only programming "princible" I use is keeping things modular and separation of concerns (despite what Greeny might say about my playstyle)

[proud totem]

Yes, encapsulation and separation of concerns are what I argue to be the most important. I feel like a lot of things are derived naturally from there

[molten gyro]

Especially separation of concerns

[proud totem]

What is the phrase? High cohesion and low coupling

[molten gyro]

I don't like encapsulation cause a lot programmers (or at least professors) are like "the more privater a class is the more encapsulationy it is"

And then procede to write a getter and setter for a class member representing a cache

[proud totem]

I mean, in reality it's more about providing access to the outside that prevents you from breaking the internals you shouldn't need to touch

[molten gyro]

Yeah

[proud totem]

But yeah, if you have a getter and setter for every class member, you're probably doing something wrong

[molten gyro]

Yeah

I was in a course and the teacher was explaining oop by having a function wrapped in a class that you instiante, than call a method, which prints to the screen directly (instead of return the evaluation), and you have to create a new object everytime you want to call this function.

It was a crime agaisnt oop

High cohesion and low coupling is the best

Satisfactory is not programming though

[proud totem]

Yet this isn't the first time I've been in a discussion on here about programming. But that might also just be because of me 😂

[molten gyro]

I think these kind of games attract programmers

[proud totem]

Or industrial engineers. I have a friend whose HW was literally like solving a problem in satisfactory, but just a bit more complex. But it was about an assembly line, with time to produce a part, failure rate, byproducts, etc.

Really cool to see

[molten gyro]

That is cool

I don't like logistics floor cause in real life, you'll need access to every inch of belts.

Although I do want to give it a try sometime.

[stone delta]

Yeah that is fair. You can get away with just clocking your buildings correctly. My designs are stackable blueprints with sushi lines so I have to choke the ores coming in to make sure they do not oversaturate the belt.

[neat crest]

Man I tried to do out the linear algebra for recycled rubber/plastic on paper and I simply Cannot. That is really annoying

I have satisfactory-tools open to check the numbers. sigh

[stone delta]

Last I remember, recycled rubber and plastic makes 50 percent more.

[proud totem]

Not entirely certain, but it might require a full on LP, not just matrices. I'd have to actually sit down and try it out myself though

[somber sphinx]

not enough sam

[brisk smelt]

what do you need vectors for?

isnt it just a system of 2 equations, sub in out

[prisma kraken]

what it pretty much works out to is that 1/3rd of the fuel goes to making the predecessor and 2/3rds goes to the end product. The tricky part for plastic is that you need to take the first 50 off of the 800 to convert the resin rubber into plastic first

[neat crest]

What I realized is that none of the recycled math matters because I want more rubber anyway vs balanced, so I can just use the first Residual Rubber as a primer but then just split the Recycled plants fuel 50:50 and not worry about it

Which makes 20 rubber + 80 rubber/80 plastic (for 60 crude)

[magic island]

it's really the resin (if you choose to use it) that complicates the numbers on a recycled loop

if you set aside the resin, you can just add up the plastic/rubber you want, make that exact amount of fuel, and you're set for a loop (if you give it a hand-fed jumpstart)

but if you want to spend resin byproduct on residual rubber, then the amount you make will be proportionate to the fuel you make, while also reducing the fuel needed, and aaaaargh

[neat crest]

In fact I don't want ANY plastic so now it's
60 crude
160 fuel
20 "primer" residual rubber
213.3333 recycled rubber
106.6667 recycled plastic

all plastic used, output is 106.7 recycled rubber + 20 residual