math-and-meta

[fringe pawn]

And kill a whole cluster of cliff hogs if you can catch them spawning together.

[ashen girder]

I know they can. I just hate making them. 😂

[prisma kraken]

i don't mind the new high-tier mobs, i just kind of feel there's too many of them and once your in end-game, it becomes a drag to kill them

the game needs something like a BFG9000 that is just so over the top, one-shot and done

[fringe pawn]

Right, the two crash sites on that rout ehave a bonkers amount of mobs.

[ashen girder]

I mean. There's solutions for that, and it's only in a particular part of the map.

[topaz hedge]

manifold nuclear.. ❤️

[fringe pawn]

IMO what's missing is a weapon that shoots nuke nobelisks. Make it cost trigons and a singularity cell.

[ashen girder]

DU Ammo for the rifle.

[fringe pawn]

And then it doesn't do ballistics, it teleports the nuke to the spot.

Maybe add a superposition oscillator as part of the recipe.

[prisma kraken]

idk if a nuke rpg is the solution, but just something that ends up being the easy button when you're past the endgame

[fringe pawn]

My proposal would also be glorious for exfoliation.

[prisma kraken]

if HRA had been buffed instead of nerfed...

[fringe pawn]

HRA was nerfed? I always preferred turbo anyway, but that's weird to hear.

[prisma kraken]

well, you have the nukes for that

in u7 or u8 damage was nerfed because it was 'too good'

[fringe pawn]

Nuke nobelisks are kinda unwieldy though. They're definitely still the fastest in the end, but a T9 grenade launcher with the aforementioned cost wouldn't be overpowered at that point.

[prisma kraken]

which was dumb imho, it litterally is the hardest ammo to make and like it isn't all that homing either

[prisma kraken]

that's a lot of hot

[topaz hedge]

spicy spicy.

[prisma kraken]

i'm kind of bummed that there isn't any penalty for making nuclear super radioactive anymore

[topaz hedge]

I've been playing with peaceful mode on. I've done that since I stopped seeing johnny the jetpack hog

[fringe pawn]

What do you mean?

[topaz hedge]

What do you mean? I mean since you can have hover pack and rad suit, it's just changed my building style.

before everything was walkable.. now, I'll go back later and make it walkable.

[edgy leaf]

oh man im dreading the day i go nuclear

ill have to learn how to /loadbalance/

terrifying stuff

[fringe pawn]

Load balancing nuclear isn't hard, you don't need to load balance everything if you're trying to avoid radiation.

[edgy leaf]

i think shes saying that now that u can have hoverpack and rad suit at the same time theres not really a penalty for building very radioactively anymore

[edgy leaf]

i never looked at the numbers tbh

[edgy leaf]

in the past if u built radioactively it forced u to walk or suffer.

and i kinda agree, irradiating ur factory should maybe be more detrimental

[fringe pawn]

I always just used inhalers when flying around my U4 nuke plant. It was only barely load balanced. Damage isn't that strong until you're right next to a container of spare fuel rods or something

[topaz hedge]

I mean, if you know what you're doing.. and you build your factory correctly, it doesn't matter if it hurts. add a few walkways here and there and call it a day :p

[prisma kraken]

back before u6(?) you couldn't where the radiation suit all the time, and as such, you had to keep your nuke builds pretty un-radioactive

[edgy leaf]

i was in tunnelrats world once, it was a total slideshow but i could stand directly inside the nuclear factory without taking any damage because it was all load balanced

[topaz hedge]

before hoverpack* now.. kind of the same

load balanced to avoid radioactivity is kind of.. preference, and manifold nuclear setups do take a bit of careful planning to get running smoothly.

[prisma kraken]

btw, balancing nuclear isn't tough, it's a matter of clocking things to be able to be split with a single splitter

all the recipes accommodate that if you math it out

[fringe pawn]

Yeah, encased cells to uranium rods to one nuclear plant works nicely.

[prisma kraken]

before i got wise, i was doing stuff like 5 way splits and just realized you can turn 5 into 2 with overclocking

[spare jolt]

will the drones still move to another port if the current port is clogged? say I wanna deliver iron plates and return smokeless powder, will drone fly here and there 24/7 no matter the load, or will it still wait for its full unload before taking off with another cargo?

[topaz hedge]

it will wait for a full unload.

[spare jolt]

so I'll either have to sink the excess, or produce the exact amount consumed. got it, thanks

[topaz hedge]

or have two drone ports

the drop off and load feature of drones was more or less intended for nitrogen transport

[edgy leaf]

btw, how do u handly transport?

i feel like a full train of uranium might defeat the point of loadbalancing the factory

but also, its easy and itd be funny to have a train of death driving around the map.

[prisma kraken]

i haven't built nuclear yet in 1.0, in past i transported via train or just built in the swamp as a u600 build

at one point i had started on a max nuclear save and was doing a combo of drone and train

[edgy leaf]

hm, i might go with drone and fuel them with plut rods

bootstrap the system with some ion fuel i load manually

[prisma kraken]

this uranium node is always tricky to get if you don't have trains running through the pink forest - you can either run a train from the gold coast (red) or drop down the uranium from a cave access above the quartz

i really wish they had left the swamp node normal and that one was made impure

[edgy leaf]

btw, do u know where i can read the bot commands?

like, for searching thinks on the wiki or for seding the modding server invite link

[prisma kraken]

!help

[spare jolt]

Just to be sure again - for liquids (like oil), will it be better to transfer them by fluid car, or to package and use freight car instead?

[prisma kraken]

well, better is to not move them at all

packaging them allows for more capacity than fluid cars, but that doesn't take into account empty returns

[spare jolt]

What do you mean? Just load empty canisters and bring them back, what's wrong with that?

[thorn bane]

packagers kinda suck
but fluid trains also suck 🤷

[fringe pawn]

Life is pain. Be productive anyway.

[prisma kraken]

fluid cars hold 1600 m^3. you can fit 3200 packaged into a solid car, but then you still need to return the empties somehow

[thorn bane]

also when in doubt
dont use pipes

[edgy leaf]

!help

[edgy leaf]

doesnt work :/

[spare jolt]

Why do packagers suck? Was using them all this while with zero troubles

[edgy leaf]

it shows me the dyno commands, not the satisfacory commands

[prisma kraken]

yeah, looks like generic bot help for the bot framework, idk

[spare jolt]

Just slap a second wagon for loading empty canisters back? 🤔

[prisma kraken]

you can, sure

[edgy leaf]

yep. i tried asking in the main chat but someone keeps insisting thati should just use the / commands and that i can easily see them in the list which.. no dude, it doesnt work like that.

[thorn bane]

because needing 10 packagers to make 600/min is insane
i guess it isnt so bad anymore with powershards but still

[prisma kraken]

2 fluid cars for 3200 or a empty and full canister car accomplish the same thing

[edgy leaf]

fluid trains are good imo

im transporting 600 oil per minute with one fulid car

i think thats a good number

[crystal charm]

so, cause i'm not overly into trains, my autism doesn't run that way, i've gone heavy into drones for 1.0 now that the fuel is much easier to sort out

[thorn bane]

or you do 600 canisters + 600 oil = 1200

[spare jolt]

Can't say 10 packagers is a lot - they only take 10 MW, pretty small and you trade the space they take for increased per-wagon throughtput

[crystal charm]

i'm still running them on batteries and ahve like 30+ ports using batteries

is it worth me bumping it all the way up to plutonium rods?

[prisma kraken]

i don't like using fluid cars, the buffering silliness you need to do sort of always makes me nervous, and the coupling of fuel power to train lines can be disasterous

[edgy leaf]

u need to do the same buffering with solid cars

[crystal charm]

cause, in order to do that and not radiate the world, i'll need a central airport

[prisma kraken]

can't hurt if you got em and aren't burning them

[edgy leaf]

ah yea, with fluid trains vs pipes its a different thing

but fluid trains vs solid trains, fluid trains win imo

the throughput is basically the same and it takes less infrastructure

[prisma kraken]

in general, think twice about transporting stuff for power over shared rails

[edgy leaf]

i mean, its exactly the same unless you use twice the amount of stations

[edgy leaf]

yea im just talking about packaging and unpackagin fluid for solid trains vs just using fluid trains

[unborn ermine]

Speaking of trains, dont add too much time to the time table
Locked up my game adding too many 9s by accident

[edgy leaf]

and im pretty sure fluid trains are just objectively superior unless you have very very weird constraints

[prisma kraken]

i think it's point of preference

i'll use fluid cars to move fuel for fmf's when it makes sense

[crystal charm]

so you're all just train nerds, fair enough

[thorn bane]

although there is an exception to the rule with nitrogen that compresses 1->4 so you actually get 2x the throughput by packaging

[unborn ermine]

this is too many 9's

[edgy leaf]

yes i corrected the wiki on the formula used to calculate train throughput 💪

[edgy leaf]

yes nitrogen is different

[edgy leaf]

why would u do that

[crystal charm]

it'd be a dull old world if we all liked the same stuff, and i don't like trains, but i'm happy you guys do

[edgy leaf]

thats literally the higlight of my life

[unborn ermine]

Why wouldnt you?

[prisma kraken]

or 4x if you're moving it for turbopressure motor or to make packaged rocket fuel

[edgy leaf]

because it makes the game freeze :)

[unborn ermine]

90% of playing a game is seeing how you can break it

[edgy leaf]

i suppose

[crystal charm]

there are jobs that do that

[thorn bane]

can you write math equations in there? it works in the 'n' calculator
something like 10^10

[prisma kraken]

no bot does math here, no

[edgy leaf]

write the busy beaver numbers 🙂

[prisma kraken]

except for laura 😛

[crystal charm]

i assume there is a discord math bot yeah?

just not one in here

[edgy leaf]

zyranex was talking about inside the train stations and in the N calculator thingy in satisfactory

[thorn bane]

i mean in the train ui

[unborn ermine]

I think the saddest part is that the music is still cycling but my PC has winded down

[edgy leaf]

lmao

[prisma kraken]

i'm sure there's a bot somewhere that fetches pics of taylor swift's underwear, lol

[crystal charm]

shit, now i want a discord math bot

[thorn bane]

!math 600/22.5

[edgy leaf]

with ai stuff nowadays theres discord bots that can generate any picture within seconds

[crystal charm]

oh hey, why don't do 600/min pipes?

[edgy leaf]

its really weird, midjourneys main way of eslling their service is through discord iirc

[prisma kraken]

good point, i was just thinking of something silly

[unborn ermine]

YAY it crashed on its own!

[thorn bane]

cause they dont work
you just sometimes get 580/min

[edgy leaf]

they work perfectly fine

[unborn ermine]

no log thing for bug tho

[edgy leaf]

zyranex is just scared of the glory of pipes

[crystal charm]

is that for all? fluids and gas?

[thorn bane]

i just hate ➿

[edgy leaf]

its not, u can get 600/min. pipes are just wonky

even when you do sub 600 btw

[thorn bane]

actually not sure about gases, i think they are fine?

[edgy leaf]

i had the same issues i had trying to push 400 through a mk2 pipe that i had trying to push 600 through it

[crystal charm]

pipes have always been wonky, fluid mechanics is just straight up funky

[edgy leaf]

so saying "just do below 600" is bad advice imo

[edgy leaf]

yes, its all witchcraft.

[prisma kraken]

ZyRaNex is just being a little overdramatic, when you push pipes to 600/min, sometimes you run into problems with manifolds stabilizing

[thorn bane]

ye its simplified
"dont do manifold with 20+ machines having supply and demand of 580+, assuming you feed from above"
but thats a bit too long for a nickname

[edgy leaf]

the issue is ALWAYS a lack of pumps. find me any system that doesnt have math or vip issues and i will fix it with pumps.

[edgy leaf]

you can easily do 20 machines consuming 600, feeding from above or from below. u just need pumps.

[prisma kraken]

tl;dr, be ready to debug them if you push them to capacity and count on some fussing

[thorn bane]

id rather do 2 pipes than 10 billion pumps

[edgy leaf]

well thats my point. you get the same issues below 600. at least i did.

i have a pipe doing 400 and i get the very same issues.

[thorn bane]

its not that bad if you feed from above
then its fine for 550+ imo

[edgy leaf]

yall are tempting me to do more science to prove u wrong... dont tempt me to do science

[thorn bane]

at this point we need dark witchcraft to unravel pipes

[prisma kraken]

i had issue with this pipe before downgrading the sections after the split to mk1:

[thorn bane]

to be fair i actually havent tried just spamming pumps
but then again just not doing 600/min is just easier

[prisma kraken]

(wasn't a pump problem)

[thorn bane]

like people just arbitrary go for 600/min turbofuel or w.e. even though it costs 450 oil

[prisma kraken]

in any event, i use mk1 pipes wherever i can get away with it

[edgy leaf]

again... i get the same issues below 600

"just not doing 600/min" isnt sufficient

[thorn bane]

but if you can plan for 400, 600 or 800
then id suggest making 400 or 800

or 600 with 2 pipes

[unborn ermine]

I know one of my sections in my fuel setup ended up being 1200 on the dot in the middle, we will see if I get any issues

[edgy leaf]

not sure what u mean. i have everything below 600 except the oil pipes because they're being filled with 600 from the source. i still got issues

you can see that thats true in my scienge ™️

[thorn bane]

but you have issues because you dont feed from above

[edgy leaf]

i got water extractors at 42/41%, tahts sub 300 flow through a mk2 pipe.

[thorn bane]

does that setup feed from below, straigt or above

[prisma kraken]

i think the points being made are (1) pipes in the game are complicated and hard to understand (2) some configurations of them don't work very well and (3) because they are hard to understand, there's a lot of old-wives voodoo wisdom about sacrificing goats to the junction gods to build them in such a way that they work

[edgy leaf]

below.

[unborn ermine]

So fun fact, it crashed generating the commas for the insane number

[edgy leaf]

when i did one test side feeding i observed similar behavior, just less pronounced

[crystal charm]

btw, i love that with a few sloops, i'm turning a ton of creature remains into a lot of diamonds, like a shit ton of diamonds

[edgy leaf]

diamonds?

[unborn ermine]

coal

[thorn bane]

yes
dont do that

[edgy leaf]

are u using biocoal?

[crystal charm]

yes

[edgy leaf]

thats.. thats not how it works. ugh

[crystal charm]

sorry if that's a spoiler

[unborn ermine]

Sloop all the process and you get a TON

[edgy leaf]

its literally not how it works.

[crystal charm]

each remain into 2 protein, each protein into 200 biomass, and well i ran out of sloops to do the coal

[thorn bane]

it is though
you get more sloshing if you feed from above vs from below
from bellow you can have issues with 400
from above you dont until 550+

[crystal charm]

i've gotta go sloop hunting again

[edgy leaf]

if it was "sloshing" then headlift wouldnt fix it

and like i said before, the same issues appear when feeding from the side.

[thorn bane]

but feeding from above is just free headlift

[lethal condor]

Sloshing and headlift aren’t necessarily related but they can be

[edgy leaf]

why do so many people pretend we understand how pipes work. unless u can explain to me why i need 370 meters of headlift for raising up water by 8 meters i wont trust you about anything in regards to pipes.

[crystal charm]

if my math is right, each animal remain turns into 11 diamonds

[lethal condor]

The issue with long manifolds of liquids are more complex than that

[thorn bane]

well form my testing (and many others) feeding from above is way more reliable

[edgy leaf]

thats beside the point.

it is /more/ reliable, but still has the same issues as feeding from below. just less pronounced

[thorn bane]

yes
the less pronounced is 550 instead of 400

[prisma kraken]

i'm staying on the sidelines, but i honestly don't think either of you is completely correct

[dark lagoon]

You don't lol you placed the pumps wrong

[edgy leaf]

when did u hack my computer and look at my saev files to find that out

[dark lagoon]

No I just know how head lift works

[lethal condor]

Maybe next we can discuss how placing more segments on a pipe prioritizes it

[edgy leaf]

it doesnt, i tested it.

[lethal condor]

And see who has an explanation for that

[thorn bane]

bro not even CSS knows how headlift works

[edgy leaf]

valves deprioritize it tho

[lethal condor]

Ah we did more testing then?

[dark lagoon]

If I had to guess you probably placed to pumps vertical but there's some other things you could of done

[edgy leaf]

i did some testing and couldnt get the priority to change no matter how many sections i added

[lethal condor]

Did we figure out if viscosity is still a thing?

[edgy leaf]

afaik last update was that its not used anymore probably

[dark lagoon]

Yeah you're not wrong the exact physics aren't know but we do know enough to say that situation won't happen if you build it right

[edgy leaf]

i placed them horizontally

well, for my 370 meter test i placed them vertically but that doesnt make a difference

[dark lagoon]

It 100% does I've never had a vertical pump work right ngl

[lethal condor]

I don’t think headlift is what causes most issues unless you build your pipes all willy nilly

[edgy leaf]

well the only one that worked was the one with vertical pipes so....

[dark lagoon]

And horizontal pumps are unperfed but work in general

[lethal condor]

I have plenty of working pipelines using multiple verticals lifts

Just don’t place them on the snapping point that shows the headlift limit.

[edgy leaf]

with 10 meters of headlift the efficiency was at 42%/41%

with 20 meters of headlift the efficiency was at 71%/74%

with 50 meters of headlift effciciency was at 97%/89%

with 370 meters of headlift efficiency was at 100%/100%

how do u explain that?

[thorn bane]

Snutt:"as far as I know from 1.0, however there's one thing where people are complaining that like when they're putting up setting up certain manifold setups with pipes they're not getting the full 600 throughput and a lot of people are always going like oh it's a bug in the game probably they'll fix it and and since we don't like fully understood the problem we've always been like oh yeah we'll look into it and and see if we can fix that, and we have looked into it and we've sort of concluded that it's it's not a bug it's like it's just the system does the way it's supposed to, "

"we don't like fully understood the problem"
xdxdxd
https://archive.satisfactory.video/transcriptions/yt-COJV4Ubn1Ac/

[lethal condor]

Xdd

[wind spade]

past tense, they understand it now

[edgy leaf]

yea ive watched htose videos and they infuriate me

the more i learn about pipes the less i understand them

[lethal condor]

Can they just make pipes supply constant fluid over X distance please

[edgy leaf]

just tell us what headlift does please

[lethal condor]

The simulation is really not fun

[wind spade]

that would be belts, not pipes

[lethal condor]

Just make pipes belts

[edgy leaf]

i want to know why i need 370 meters of it. i feel like thats the very core of the issue.

[thorn bane]

yup
turns out writing fluid simulations is hard

[lethal condor]

Headlift lifts head

[edgy leaf]

reminds me of that video about german:
this is a flammenwerfer, it werfs flammen

this is a sturmgewehr, it gewehrs sturm

[dark lagoon]

Without the save file I honestly won't try too, with it I probably could figure out but maybe you have gods wackiest setup, but while a barely use pumps unless I literally have to anymore because how they just are weird but that situation 100% is avoidable

[edgy leaf]

this is a headlift, it litfs head

[lethal condor]

I wish a flammenwerfer would werf flammen at these pipes.

[lethal condor]

No I’ve seen the set up. It’s just straight pipes.

No wackiness. All business.

[edgy leaf]

the only "wacky" thing about it is that it bottomfeeds

[dark lagoon]

Try changing it to top feed see if it helps

[lethal condor]

I suspect there’s a weird mechanism with junctions and they randomly reset headlift.

[thorn bane]

🙃

[edgy leaf]

why would i do that? its a testing setup.

i built it for the express purpose of understanding pipes, its in a creative world.

[dark lagoon]

To understand if bottom feeding is the issue or not? Like the literal point of testing

[edgy leaf]

to understand headlift.

you can read my notes if u want

[lethal condor]

No to understand why getting full fluid flow requires 10x the headlift you need to go up the distance

[thorn bane]

ye that has to be it, that they somehow eat headlift
thats also what tugboat got from his testing
but it could all just be working pressure doing weird things

[dark lagoon]

Pump the water above and then top feed see if you can use less head lift to get even higher to top feed?

[edgy leaf]

im not trying to fix anything.

[dark lagoon]

Like you don't want to test a possible way to understand head lift better that's on you but don't call it unexplainable magic then

[lethal condor]

This is kind of a fruitless discussion when people jump in without context

[thorn bane]

have you tried replacing all your pipes?
maybe theres a mk1 pipe in there

[lethal condor]

The testing environment demonstrates strange and unintuitive behavior from junctions

Junctions include pumps and valves

They’re considered junctions in the code

And so my hypothesis is that there’s something weird with the interaction of junctions and headlift

So piping systems with fewer junctions seems to work more reliably

[fringe seal]

people see "pipes", just barge on to regurgitate advices they themselves don't understand

[lethal condor]

Wizards throwing random things into the potion yeah

Thus far the most reliable thing I see pipes do is generate online discussion about how they work

[prisma kraken]

goats & cowbell

[lethal condor]

It’s fun in a way

Also makes me want to die

[prisma kraken]

you can substitute goat for vip and loop for cowbell

[fringe seal]

it's great about filtering people who actually know things about pipes

which tbh

is probably zero

[lethal condor]

All I know is that css is using floats instead of doubles for their pipe variables and I don’t know why

[dark lagoon]

The real thing to know about pipes is they are stupid and idiots or something

[lethal condor]

Like. Why.

[dark lagoon]

It's funny

[thorn bane]

hm thinking more about the top vs bottom feed
i wonder if this would make it more stable
having extra headlift from the fluid coming from far above and letting gravity be the headlift
(also i suck at 3d painting)

[prisma kraken]

i just use them how they're described to work and place pumps where they need to go 🤷

[fierce ruin]

is it possible to get 10k silica pm

[prisma kraken]

yeah

[fierce ruin]

build a water tower

[thorn bane]

thats just 0lauras testing setup then

[dark lagoon]

Head lift for a system is universal so yeah gravity head lift works, I always try to source fluids from high up as possible to avoid pumps and I run into basically 0 issues anymore with fluids

[thorn bane]

#math-and-meta message

[prisma kraken]

there's about 12k of quartz on the map, even base silica recipe converts 3:5 quartz->silica

[fierce ruin]

awesome

[prisma kraken]

or 5:7

i forget

[fierce ruin]

because my aluminum factory needs an extra 10k silica pm

[lethal condor]

Pure aluminum ingot tho

[crystal charm]

are trains the only way to ship dark matter residue?

[thorn bane]

having you considered not doing that

[fierce ruin]

wanna see my factory

[thorn bane]

pipes
or turn into crystals instantly

it just acts as a gas and has high throughput so it handles badly
imo just instantly turn into crystal

[prisma kraken]

(i was idly curious)

[fierce ruin]

12k aluminum pm

300 less than whats possible before tier 9

im gonna leave like one node untouched

gonna really touch the rest

[crystal charm]

did you like, steal all the bauxite?

[fierce ruin]

yes

[thorn bane]

there is 12k bauxite on the map so dont need silica

[crystal charm]

ok

[fierce ruin]

there is 12.3k bauxite on the map

it needs 12k of that

[crystal charm]

there is an alt recipe that doesn't need silica btw, and it's so good

[fierce ruin]

yes but i didnt unlock it until after i had done half of what is in that ss

[thorn bane]

sloppy + electrode + pure is 1 to 1
dont need any silica

[crystal charm]

ah

yeah undoing that and redoing it is kind of rough

[prisma kraken]

he's looking to max things in interesting ways, and needs more than 1:1 conversion of baux->ingot

[fierce ruin]

for every bauxite i get 1 ingot yeah

[thorn bane]

without silica

[fierce ruin]

with silica

[thorn bane]

are you using sloppy alumina solution and electrode scrap?

[fierce ruin]

nope

[thorn bane]

welp

[fierce ruin]

all base recipe

i didnt have any of the alts and didnt know about them

already gone to far to turn back now

[prisma kraken]

sloppy+electro or instant scrap make the best baux->scrap yield

[thorn bane]

i mean base silica only needs 6000 and there is 13500 on the map so youre fine

[fierce ruin]

yeah

[prisma kraken]

they're equivalent in baux:scrap

[fierce ruin]

will also be cool to watch my train network suddenly become very busy

[crystal charm]

what's the preferred turbo motor build, cause honestly the OG one looks simplest

[prisma kraken]

just whether you want to use oil or sulfur+coal to make it

[thorn bane]

pressure all the way

[crystal charm]

except for the bloody RCUs, they are a pain in my ass atm

[prisma kraken]

it depends on how many you need

[fierce ruin]

idek how many trains ima need

likely more than 1

idek if drones could work in this system

[prisma kraken]

if you're doing a cheese box factory for building mats, default or electric is easier, if you're trying to squeeze out resources for a max-world style playthrough, turbopressur saves a ton of resources

[edgy leaf]

https://www.satisfactorytools.com/1.0/production?share=ko0mWkxOjELiRdtvhPNK
can someone doublecheck my math on how much plastic and rubber i need?

according to my math i need to produce 22709.24 plastic and 9181.76 rubber, right?

[fierce ruin]

i have one more row of refineries to do

then water extractors

then trains

[thorn bane]

what are you slooping?

[edgy leaf]

nothing

i want to produce 2.54TW so i plan to use my sloops for APAs

[thorn bane]

ye seems right

[radiant lance]

do we think this would be a functional design for a fluid freight platform buffer running 600/min?

[edgy leaf]

okay nice, thx

wanted to have someone else confirm it before i spend a bunch of hours building it

[thorn bane]

wait youre not making singularity cells for portals?

[edgy leaf]

nah, i love my hypertubes too much

~~also they're expensive~

[thorn bane]

fair

[fierce ruin]

im close to halfway done with my aluminum factory

[prisma kraken]

i think there is actually an issue with using the large buffers on train platforms

[fierce ruin]

won't even be able to turn it on all at once due to power constraints

[radiant lance]

wiki says that industrial fluid buffers are needed "for max potential" for a fluid platform https://satisfactory.wiki.gg/wiki/Tutorial:Train_throughput

though it's down at the gallery which could be outdated

[prisma kraken]

perhaps, i'm just going by what i've heard around the chats

[thorn bane]

thats loading though not unloading

[prisma kraken]

i've used the small buffers successfully a number of times

[radiant lance]

the image in the gallery used shows them going into the input, my setup is using the input as well

[thorn bane]

oh i thought yours was unloading sorry

[edgy leaf]

uhhhh im a bit confused, it says it can make 7183.62 explosive rebar per minute but... it hsouldnt?.

when i add expolsive rebar and set it to maximize it says it can make 7183.62 for some reason

[fierce ruin]

why would you ever need that much explosive rebar ._.

[edgy leaf]

i dont, thats the issue.

[fierce ruin]

https://tenor.com/view/robertdowneyjr-wide-eye-tony-stark-iron-man-avengers-gif-7766118

[edgy leaf]

i want to turn all the oil left in the world into explosive rebar

but for some reason the calculator thinks it can make 7000 per minute, when it really shouldnt be able to

i have the convertor recipes disabled

[prisma kraken]

i'd think the limiter would be hor

[edgy leaf]

ohhh, it takes oil away from other things to make more smokeless powder

[prisma kraken]

yeah, probably

sftools oft makes bad choices, lol

[thorn bane]

max is max

[wind spade]

how is it a bad choice if it leads to most desired result? 😛

[edgy leaf]

greeny! does the calculator change which recipes to use as it approaches the limit?

[thorn bane]

wrong metric 🙃

[edgy leaf]

in this case i agree with greeny

[thorn bane]

thats the whole point of copying the number you get into items/min so it doesnt use maximize

[wind spade]

it doesn't really "choose recipes", it treats the whole problem as one big graph and finds path(s) through the graph that lead to the desired result

[edgy leaf]

12600-12562.4 is 37.6
one explosive rebar takes 0.75 oil
37.6/0.75 is 50.13333
but when i enter 50.13333 explosive rebar into the calculator it says it doesnt use up all the oil

[edgy leaf]

without explosive rebar

with explosive rebar

[thorn bane]

yes it probably changed some recipes

[edgy leaf]

it changes the recipes of other things when adding new things even if no limits are hit?

if i enter 57 explosive rebar it does hit the limit

and if i enter more than 57 it stays at the limit and starts taking away oil from other things.

[wind spade]

well, it's most likely due to some byproducts produced somewhere being used in a different way

[radiant lance]

might be trying to keep its resource usage as balanced to the weights as possible?

[wind spade]

or the added thing costing some raw resources or whatever

[radiant lance]

adding expl. rebar might increase oil consumption -> it tries to decrease oil consumption elsewhere

[wind spade]

if there's only items/min requests, then it optimises for raw resource consumption (resources weighted by global appearance)

[edgy leaf]

this is without explosive rebar vs with explosive rebar

[radiant lance]

oh does maximise not work off global weights?

[fierce ruin]

have to duplicate this 20 times

[edgy leaf]

yes. but it shouldnt take into account other things being produced unless a limit is hit, right?

[leaden cosmos]

that wont take that long 😄

[edgy leaf]

uGh it reduces plastic usage elsewher.. but how. and why.

[thorn bane]

@edgy leaf top is without rebar, bot is with
it just uses recipes that dont use rubber

[fierce ruin]

gonna blueprint the pipe and junction thankfully

[leaden cosmos]

it doesnt rememeber the old solution, it just optimises for the current one

[wind spade]

hard to tell with the gigantic web of lines, but I'm pretty confident it finds the "cheapest" solution based on the input parameters

[edgy leaf]

ooh, i think i know whats going on

explosive rebar also produces polymer resin

the polymer resin can be turned into rubber, allowing it to produce less rubber out of oil and thus more explosive rebar

thats why with just 37.6 crude oil the max is 50.1333, but without its more

it doesnt change the recipe, the polymer resin just frees up some other oil, it would be sunk otherwise

[thorn bane]

stuff like heavy flexible (wait wat) adhered iron plates, insulated crystal oscillators are WP optimal so they are used until you hit a resource limit, in this case crude oil
you can see the other resources like quartz or iron go up a lot more once its capped by oil

[edgy leaf]

if i set it to also produce 25.067 polymer resin then it would produce 50.1333 explo rebar

[edgy leaf]

yea but that should only happen when it hits the cap. it does only happen when it hits the cap. in this case it can make more explo rebar because the byproduct frees up oil

[edgy leaf]

not because it changes any recipes

56.3114197 is roughly the limit i can produce

kinda a wonky number

opinions fused quartz crystals?

oh wtf its worse than pure

[radiant lance]

pure recipes being amazing for resources but being dogshit for power and to build 😔

[edgy leaf]

yea but fused is also shit to build and takes more resources

it hsould give better yields

[radiant lance]

wtf fused is only 1.5/min higher throughput 😭

[edgy leaf]

pure is 0.7777 per quartz and fused is 0.72

and pure also takes 12 coal per minute

[radiant lance]

literally can't think of a reason i'd ever want to do that unless i have no power (why am i making quartz in this situation) and i hate refineries

[edgy leaf]

or rather 0.666 coal per quartz crystal

kinda a useless alt

i mean, unless u have a bunch of coal and no water or power

[radiant lance]

i have a fantastic idea for how to get power in this situation

i GUESS fused is unlocked earlier..???

thank god i have an earlygame way to make all that quartz crystal i need in phase 2

[edgy leaf]

true but still.. refineries dont come much later

https://www.satisfactorytools.com/1.0/production?share=HdsDTCsA5EXpsaGqSa1T
final one i think

[fierce ruin]

uh

wrong place

[prisma kraken]

*fused

[edgy leaf]

the fused quartz crystal stil lproduces quartz crystals tho

thats what i meant

[prisma kraken]

i know, just keeping your infallible record intact 😉

[edgy leaf]

thank u

[prisma kraken]

fused doesn't seem very good imho

[edgy leaf]

yep

i know all recipes should have tradeoffs but.. fused just seems bad

[prisma kraken]

the one thing it is nice for is good numbers on default oscillator

[edgy leaf]

eH

with clocking i dont really consider good numbers to be a tradeoff

[prisma kraken]

i think it is more of a 'only have x alt recipes and don't want to do more hunting' sorta recipe

[thorn bane]

i mean if you have a coal node nearby that you wont use otherwise 🤷

[edgy leaf]

yes, but it should at least be a bit more quartz efficeint than pure

because pure only uses water and quartz and water is basically free yk

[prisma kraken]

which the estute cartographer will note that nearly all quartz locations now have a buttload of coal nearby

[edgy leaf]

even if it just has a ratio of 0.8 instead of 0.7777

[thorn bane]

same with pure being better than alloy for iron/copper

[prisma kraken]

it isn't better for iron

15/8 > 13/7

[edgy leaf]

not in terms of copper, right?

whaat, its better even in terms of copper alone?? wtf

[thorn bane]

in terms of copper
oh youre right they are roughly the same for iron
but ye water free, copper not free
the downside of pure is not the resources its the logistics

[topaz hedge]

pure still wins. overclock it til the numbers are nice.

[prisma kraken]

if you count the copper, yeah

[edgy leaf]

imo the logistics is easier because water is everywhere

[thorn bane]

or dont use pure and just get another node

[topaz hedge]

and or bp your refineries. and use pure :p

[thorn bane]

pipes < belts though

[edgy leaf]

"dont use pure" funny joke

[prisma kraken]

iron alloy is seriously now one of the best recipes in the game

[thorn bane]

yes
fused copper is insane, because theres a lot of iron/copper on the map, so you dont waste time setting up water extractors

[prisma kraken]

and it makes copper alloy good too

[thorn bane]

eh alloy

[topaz hedge]

until you need all your copper, and don't want to use trains. :p

[thorn bane]

but you dont
you can beat the game using 10% of the resources on the map

[edgy leaf]

u can beat the game using 0.000001% of the resources on the map

[thorn bane]

and even a NASA pc is gonna have 5 fps if you use all

[edgy leaf]

u can beat the game just by hand mining

[prisma kraken]

i've barely built outside of grass fields

[edgy leaf]

i may or may not be planning to do that for my next playthrough

[topaz hedge]

clearly we have different definitions of beat sir.

[thorn bane]

no because youd get bored before youd finish

[edgy leaf]

i /could/

[prisma kraken]

not quite. fmf's kill ya on that

[edgy leaf]

oh yea i forgor about that. u can beat the game completly without miners or portable miners then

[topaz hedge]

I'm liking plastic ai limiters though.. it's nice

[prisma kraken]

they needed an alt for it

[topaz hedge]

fused quickwire + recycled loop for plastic + plastic ai limiters.

[thorn bane]

but you didnt
most people that beat the game have gone for something achievable
dont have data for 1.0 yfet but 4/4/1/1 for early access was BY FAR the most ratio that people went with that actually beat the game
because building too big factories stops you from progressing

[prisma kraken]

don't like that it takes plastic, but i'll deal 🙂

[edgy leaf]

im saying someone could technically beat the game without miners or portable miners

[prisma kraken]

people have beat it without splitters, lol

[edgy leaf]

insanity

[prisma kraken]

google 'low%'

[thorn bane]

but im not those people
so i use alloy instead of pure

[prisma kraken]

in general, the alloy recipes are superior. the exceptions are caterium-heavy builds and those that make gobs of pasta

what's great about the AIL alt is getting rid of the steamed sheet. i hate that recipe

[daring wing]

why does this not work

the buffer keep getting full

[edgy leaf]

whats AIL?

[prisma kraken]

ai limiter

being lazy 😛

[edgy leaf]

ah, i just like that it uses oil

[prisma kraken]

can't massage it into nice numbers for anything i've tried though, lol

[edgy leaf]

its generally not recommended to use valves for stuff like this because they are inaccurate, only 8 bits of precision

you could try using a variable input priority junction

[daring wing]

ah alright then..

the vip stuff meaning it will take priority water from the bottom pipe right

[edgy leaf]

yep. its in the plumbing manual from mcgalleon which is in the pins and in #welcome

[thorn bane]

dont do that
run some of the refineries on the recycled water alone
that way the "fresh water" refineries always run and the "recycled water" refineries use up the water

[edgy leaf]

well im assuming they already have their stuff set up, in which case its easier to just add a VIP

[prisma kraken]

yeah, that's the most reliable way to go about it

[daring wing]

yeah.. i didnt think of the byproduct

so i only use 3 refineries with max overclock taking 500 water each

[edgy leaf]

ive had my aluminum setup running with a VIP and it never failed

[thorn bane]

separating is just running a pipe in the middle, its not that much more effort

[prisma kraken]

i don't buid it like that, but I also take measures to make sure alum doesn't stop. ever.

[edgy leaf]

you need to potentially build more refineries to clock them correctly

[thorn bane]

dont underclock them
the whole point of the setup is that the refineries use up extra water
they cant do that if they are underclocked
but ye you might have to overclock 1, or add an extra one

[edgy leaf]

not sure what u mean with dont underclock them, but yes, its possible u need to add more refineries, which is undesirable when something is already built

thats why i first recommended the vip junction. it just works and doesnt require them to rebuild anything

[daring wing]

why do u need pumps in vip?

[thorn bane]

cause vip is black voodoo magic

[edgy leaf]

because fluids are really fucked up and pumps kinda make everything work

[daring wing]

i assume coz it can flow back?

[edgy leaf]

nonono, that would be too simple

[daring wing]

LOL

[edgy leaf]

pumps dont stop backflow, nothing does

[daring wing]

well idk how to make the vip with my current setup

[edgy leaf]

things u have built infront of the junction could cause issues and the pumps kinda "reset" that

at least thats my headcanon

[fringe seal]

route, intended to be used in the grassfields

[prisma kraken]

this is my aluminum build. there's no valves, no vip, no mk2 pipes and it just works™️

[prisma kraken]

or you could do that, yeah, i guess 😄

[daring wing]

so i just replace the valve with pumps maybe?

[edgy leaf]

its possible that u have a vip junction withot knowing it...

[fringe pawn]

This is the way. No VIP fiddliness, no figuring out separate production for wastewater.

[fierce ruin]

i dont need a valve either

[thorn bane]

this design with a smart splitter is water negative if too much is supplied
meaning it will temporarily use only refineries on the recycled side, starving the fresh side of bauxite, resulting in the pipes getting less and less water
so even if you somehow end up in a situation where your buffer is full, then it would just burn through that buffer until it is empy

[fierce ruin]

i have every line of production isolated and it feeds off of its own waste water to get the 900 pm that it needs

[prisma kraken]

i don't think so, but someone would have to explain to me how a vip works for me to say for sure 😄

[fierce ruin]

300 going in one end and 600 going in the other

[edgy leaf]

i dont really see how thats relevant to what i said

[thorn bane]

this is for the "not sure what u mean" part

[edgy leaf]

this here is a vip junction:

it prefers the left side over the right side

[fringe seal]

valves are on 600 right

[edgy leaf]

yes

[prisma kraken]

yes, but how does it work and why?

[edgy leaf]

if u turn the right side on first, let everything fill up and run and then turn the left side on the left side will take over

if u turn the left side on first , let everything fill up and run and then turn the right side on then the left side will keep running at 600, right side will be at 0

it may or may not break when reloading the save ™️

[thorn bane]

xd

[edgy leaf]

ive had two designs that are similar break upon reloading the save. not all of them did, just two out of like 5.

[fringe seal]

I have a feeling that even the devs don't fully know why

[edgy leaf]

its impossible to get the right side to have priority over the left side while the game is running, but for some reason they can maybe switch priority upon reload

[thorn bane]

tldr dont do a VIP
they are unreliable as fuck

[edgy leaf]

dont do this kind of vip. the real one is perfectly reliable

[fringe seal]

inb4 it depends on the cardinal directions

[fierce ruin]

my aluminum production lines

[edgy leaf]

nope, i tried all cardinal direction in different places, same result everywhere

i did consider that so i tested it.

[prisma kraken]

if you put yourself in the mindset of a dev, they make a code change to pipes, there's probably a handful of saves they load with specific things built in them that they test. you build in a stupid simple way that a dev would have done so to test and you'll not have problems, lol

[edgy leaf]

this is the vip junction that failed

right side has priority. its literally impossible to make the left side have priority while the game is running. but for some reason when i loaded back into the save, on one of them the left side had priority

[fringe pawn]

Goodbye object scanner. You've served your purpose.

[edgy leaf]

i tried everything to make the left side have priority while the game was running, literally impossible

[edgy leaf]

what if u need berries!

[thorn bane]

guys
"works for me"
doesnt mean that you should suggest it to other people
my spaghetti base and pipe abominations "work for me"
doesnt mean you should follow that

[prisma kraken]

btw, is there anything you can flush that does anything special?

[fringe pawn]

I don't think so

[edgy leaf]

its not just "works for me"

i isolate it and test it thoroughly

[prisma kraken]

i gotta try the gold cart and cup

[edgy leaf]

i also got other epople to run it on their computers to test if osmething was funky

[thorn bane]

all i know is that ive have seen atleast 10 persons try a VIP setup and have it fail

[edgy leaf]

ive seen people try to seperate fresh and recycled water and have it fail

[thorn bane]

its easier to follow a setup that you understand though
compared to pipe magic

[edgy leaf]

its easier to build a bit of pipe magic vs redoing ur entire aluminum plant imo

[prisma kraken]

my general feeling is that pipes work correctly when you keep stuff stupid-simple and math correctly

[fierce ruin]

i just fed mine back into itself:)

[fringe seal]

but how simple is stupid-simple?

[edgy leaf]

but they dont...

[thorn bane]

how is overclocking 1 refinery, in some cases not even that, redoing the alu plant

[edgy leaf]

sometimes thats not possible.

if all are already overclocked fully then u need to build new ones

[fringe seal]

this convo gives me impression that the pipes are geared perfectly to the devs' playstyles and no other playstyles

[prisma kraken]

i will say that i spent hours if not days trying to figure out in the u5-u6 era why aluminum always hovered around 95% efficiency for me

[edgy leaf]

if u already have an entire building built around it and stuff then that will cause issues. or if you're very space limited

[thorn bane]

1 max
if the numbers work out then you dont even need that

[edgy leaf]

adding a VIP junction is easier than rebuilding a factory to seperate fresh and recycled water

[prisma kraken]

that's when i got wise and started building it using mk1 pipes 😄

[fierce ruin]

this hurts my brain

im to tired for this

[edgy leaf]

imo all this stuff about mk1s is jsut superstition

we start making up weird things because we dont understand the system

[prisma kraken]

like for instance vips?

[edgy leaf]

vips work.

[thorn bane]

except for when they dont

[prisma kraken]

until you reload a save

[fringe seal]

🤔 if most of the problems for 600 being not possible is from flow fluctuations
doesn't buffers have an incredibly important purpose

[edgy leaf]

the funky design from tug, yes. not the design thats actually recommended to people

even the funky design is better tested than saying "use mk1"

[thorn bane]

so this?
https://youtu.be/ZwO-F82sYE4?t=260
because it failed for him

[daring wing]

oh well ill just rebuild the factoiry

[prisma kraken]

i think a lot of it is cargo cult thought

[edgy leaf]

thats not the design im talking about and that video is... questionable

[fringe seal]

same

[edgy leaf]

yes.

most of it. thats why im doing research

[prisma kraken]

there's a lot of variables that we don't have good ways of measuring

[daring wing]

so 1 refinery to 1 refinery right?

[edgy leaf]

same thing irl. tahts why we isolate variables and test for them

[prisma kraken]

like framerate does affect pipes. that's why the mk2's often have problems

[thorn bane]

thats why you do the handling with solids using a smart splitter instead of with pipes using junction magic

[daring wing]

?

something like this

[prisma kraken]

it also affects mk5 & 6 belts

[daring wing]

is this correct @prisma kraken

[prisma kraken]

watch them for a while and you'll see holes

[radiant lance]

didn't snutt say that they fixed the bugs related to mk.2s and that if your mk2s aren't running properly it's very likely a skill issue?

[thorn bane]

"skill issue" is an understatement

[prisma kraken]

i don't think snutt knows everything

[fierce ruin]

https://tenor.com/view/thriller-michael-jackson-eating-popcorn-watching-gif-5577709

[prisma kraken]

he often prefaces such statements with things like 'to my knowledge' etc

[radiant lance]

i mean of course not but what he said was quite explicit that coffee stain is confident that mk2s work correctly now

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3m36IDlbrKI

[thorn bane]

#math-and-meta message
"skill issue" as in the whole coffee stain studio thought it was a bug for 3 years and just recently understood the inner workings of it
thats the devs...

[thorn bane]

he means something else with fixed
there was a separate floating point error from 1.0

[daring wing]

@prisma kraken does the extractor only need 300?

[fierce ruin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAC7G6JVXcE this is my coolio aluminum lines

[radiant lance]

then besides the floating point what would be a bug causing mk2s to not work right?

[prisma kraken]

in my design, here's the numbers... needs 180 freshwater:

[fierce ruin]

each line of mine needs 600 fresh and then the waste water is fed back which is 300 because the whole line needs 900, and someone who had helped me alot with this whole project told me to overflow the pipes so i did

[prisma kraken]

you can adjust things as needed for the other aluminum recipes and the design works too

[thorn bane]

water hammer
water bouncing back from inputs due to machine inputs being full in or full stop, resulting in a wave going back from the machine resulting in >600/min flow, which cant happen so it gets capped, limiting the setup to ~550/min

this is the "skill issue"
its not technically a bug, as in the water simulation is running correctly
its just unintuitive af, and very hard to diagnose and more a quirk of a overly complex/realistic fluid simulation

[prisma kraken]

in such cases, looping the pipe often solves the issue by creating a network with double the capacity

[fringe seal]

keyword often

[fierce ruin]

beans

[thorn bane]

as in use 2x pipes at 300/min
or dont do 600/min pipes

[fierce ruin]

to late

[vapid gorge]

Do 600 pipes.
Sometimes 300s need looping anyway

Not even a skill issue, just the ability to have tidy pipes

[fierce ruin]

i hate mk1s so much

[thorn bane]

a looped 600/min manifold is just 2 300/min pipes feeding from each end, its not rocket science

[radiant lance]

but if this issue were so common as to make mk.2 pipes useless then i think it'd be far more well known and CSS wouldn't be okay with players using 600/m

[fierce ruin]

they caused me untold suffering

[prisma kraken]

i keep pipe networks as small and simple as i can and prefer the mk1's

[edgy leaf]

that video is the bane of my existance

[thorn bane]

they are not useless, they still work at 550/min

[radiant lance]

I specifically mean at 600/m

[edgy leaf]

they dont.

[fringe seal]

it did not work at 450/min for me

[vapid gorge]

You very often need to loop mk2s at 550 xD

[prisma kraken]

btw, you also run into problems with belts at their max capacity

[thorn bane]

"if we do fix it and make it so that like this doesn't happen then fluid dynamics might change quite drastically for pipes throughout the entire game because then they won't function the same way because like that aspect of pipes, that's an aspect of like how fluid dynamics have been designed for the game so if we change if we're going to fix that we have to change how the fluid dynamics works and that can drastically change how other pipe networks are set up so like potentially if we do change it so that that doesn't happen that can actually change a lot of like existing systems, so so that's something that we are like delving into and and sort of trying to figure out how we want to tackle that "
also they are LITERALLY thinking of changing it

[prisma kraken]

if the simulation hiccups, the belt doesn't have capacity to 'catch up'

[vapid gorge]

They trivialized everything else why not?

‘Oh no, people can’t make bullshit pipe shapes and refuse to do it any other way’

[radiant lance]

making some edits for readability would be very nice if you're using quotes in this discussion

[thorn bane]

i dont think its easy to simplify though, fluid mechanics are really fucking hard (solving navier stokes still has a bounty 1million dollars) so "simplifying" it isnt really a possibility

[thorn bane]

ye im just copying from the transcript sorry https://archive.satisfactory.video/transcriptions/yt-COJV4Ubn1Ac/

[fringe seal]

it's a game
RL study of physics uses shortcuts all the time
it's fluid in a confined space

[vapid gorge]

They’ll make one way pipes or something. The only real thing because the issue is that fluid is bi directional

[prisma kraken]

the fluid simulation in the game is a somewhat realistic approximation of real fluids, just take it as that

a puzzle to solve within the parameters of a game

[vapid gorge]

It’s just that shorter pipes have fewer points of suction so they are more stable

[radiant lance]

i think the moral of this story is that the way pipes are implemented into the game is kinda shocking and the amount of information kept from us and unexplained mechanics with 0 tutorialisation is absurd

[thorn bane]

and you solve it by not doing 600/min

[vapid gorge]

Or just loop it xD

[fringe seal]

loops never worked for me fwiw

[thorn bane]

ye honestly a ui description would go a long way
also the fact that its way less pronounced in mk1 pipes, where most people dont even notice it

[prisma kraken]

do keep in mind that mk2 pipes weren't in the 1st iteration of pipes in update 3.5

[fringe seal]

loops, prefill, overfeed, etc
still backed up

added a pump and it magically worked

[radiant lance]

the fact that valves have imprecision in their limiter that makes the mechanic totally useless is ?????

[vapid gorge]

Pipes in the game are like a jenga tower

They can tolerate a certain amount of bullshit before they collapse

A loop won’t fix your pipes if the rest of it is wonky

[prisma kraken]

most of the problems you have to solve in the game do actually have a way of building with mk1 pipes, just like the 8 coal gen problem

[thorn bane]

well oil extractors output 600/min
but ye a lot of it can be solved by just seperating into momre pipes

[fringe seal]

or the tower is already collapsed to start with?

[vapid gorge]

I can reliably run pipes at 600 and not have issues,

Including bottom feeding.

You’re doing dumb things with your pipes

[prisma kraken]

i'm guessing you never have framerate problems

[radiant lance]

yeah that's what my thought process here is. if coffee stain knew you couldn't get 600/m consistently through a pipe, oil extractors wouldn't output 600/m and nuke plants ESPECIALLY wouldn't be able to go up to 600

[prisma kraken]

i'm off to solve some problems in my dreams, tc all

[radiant lance]

the really funny thing to me is that I'm doing the absolute dumbest way of feeding my aluminium water byproduct back in and i've somehow had no issues for dozens of hours

[thorn bane]

its even worse because it only happens in long manifolds
so nukes are fine since its a 50/50 split not 95/5

[radiant lance]

oh, does water hammering only happen in long manifolds?

[vapid gorge]

direct feeding can work? it's just not a reliable solution

[radiant lance]

i am doing cursed things

[vapid gorge]

probably not. But hte bigger issue is in a long manifold machines suck fluid from the centre causing back flow

the longer the manifold (for example ones that have more fluid) have more points of instability. That's where the loop comes in

[thorn bane]

well its a constant 50/min or something sloshing back
so if the pipe goes between 250/min and 350/min then its not an issue
but if it goes between 525/min and 625/min then it gets capped at the top end to 600/min resulting in throughput limitations

[prisma kraken]

length doesn't really matter, frequency of injection and drainage is the cause

[vapid gorge]

people are also bad at noticing when their fluids are misbehaving in my experience.

[thorn bane]

its easy to see if you just look at the pipe on the first manifold junction
it goes up,down,up,down etc.

[radiant lance]

definitely much harder compared to belts

[fringe pawn]

The other reason I use nuke nobelisks. When you kill hogs faster with them, they can't clip into the ground and you lose their remains.

[daring wing]

finally fix my stupid aluminum factory

the 1 to 1 refinery works so well

[edgy leaf]

fun fact:

yellow is fluid spawner, pink is fluid sink, green is perfect 600 flow, brown is any flow below 600

for some reason the left one gets perfect flow and the right one doesnt

it sometimes drops down as far as 200/min

kinda funny right?

(both work at 600 if u add a pump)

obviously, because you toatlly need a pump for this

[thorn bane]

oooh interesting
i wonder if the junction makes it slosh back but the pipe end doesnt

[radiant lance]

what happens with this setup if made into a manifold? is the unconnected junction the root of all evil?

[edgy leaf]

lmao wtf.

adding a loop made it have 600 flow literally everywhere, even in the loop???

[thorn bane]

add a turbine and you have infinite energy

[radiant lance]

pipes make my brain hurt.

[leaden cosmos]

my understanding is, the left splits the flow in half, half flows into the segment, it fills up and then half backflows to the junction cancelling out
the right might have that weird segment of pipe split by the junction and I suspect that is part of the issue, see if rebuilding that center brown pipe between junctions changes it?

[edgy leaf]

i placed the junctions first and then placed the pipes.

[leaden cosmos]

ok, thats fun, can you mess with the sink so its barely less than 600 and the pipes will fill? e.g. 599

[edgy leaf]

the pipes being filled makes no difference, ive tested that multiple times

[radiant lance]

i'm doing my own testing on the fluid buffer setup i posted earlier and it's very interesting watching it work perfectly with mk2 pumps and mk1 pumps are unable to push enough fluid

[leaden cosmos]

and as your probably working on the engine level, can you visualise forward and backflow to make sense of the why?

[edgy leaf]

im not working on the engine level, ive been using mods

[cedar ivy]

what are you- ah

[edgy leaf]

but now im switching over to vanilla. its more effort but i feel like people wont believe my findings if i use mods

[cedar ivy]

no no, this is useful

[leaden cosmos]

nah I believe there is shenanigans, its more to try and pinpoint the why

[edgy leaf]

ill do all the same tests again in vanilla

[radiant lance]

yea i'm kinda begging for proper results from your tests

[cedar ivy]

is like debug cheat tools in factorio

[leaden cosmos]

e.g. does the left behave the same in all rotations

[radiant lance]

pipes need to make sense!!!!!!!!!!

[cedar ivy]

doesnt matter what items come out of or go to, it just matters what the engine does with them.

[leaden cosmos]

or as a really really dumb thought,
does the behaviour change by rotating the junction?
I assume the game has a preference to which way to teleports fluids through a junction

[radiant lance]

genuinely ????? at the fact that these pumps in this scenario can't consistently move 300/m fluid but mk2s can

[cedar ivy]

we know vertical junctions do,

and we know junctions were asymmetrical

[radiant lance]

it's not even filling the buffer and getting too much pressure or anything like that. the buffer is nearly empty and it's filling the platform

[cedar ivy]

so that's plausible,if unlikely

[radiant lance]

yeah my guess is that only affected the model and hitbox

[cedar ivy]

who knows, foundation orientation now matters for building rails inside blueprints 🤷‍♂️

[past temple]

Is going nuclear worth it, or is it better to just scale up fuel/turbofuel/rocketfuel?

[leaden cosmos]

more that programming wise, its going to have a bias 🙂

[cedar ivy]

i like nuclear for being small scale for big power, But it's complex in comparison

[cedar ivy]

right. It might because junctions certainly have an orientation. but it's hard to say if it genuinely has orientation-agnostic logic.

if it already has vertical orientation logic, it's plausible it could have world-absolute directional logic too.

but at this point it's probably smarter to look into reverse engineering the junction code to look for those quirks

[leaden cosmos]

modders might have better access to this, but while he can perfectly repeat testing then it might get results sooner

[cedar ivy]

yeah debug cheat tools helps that

[edgy leaf]

i dont trust them myself due to mods, i made blueprints to do the same thing in vanilla now

theres no debug stuff sadly. u can access the debug commands with cheats but they dont work, the debugging tools are stripped out in the final game or we dont know how to access them

[radiant lance]

btw yall, just as a quick sidenote to make sure i'm not fucking myself cause my brain is fried, if I'm transporting 600/m water in one fluid freight platform, how much trip time leeway might I have before I start running below 600/m throughput on the train

[radiant lance]

makes sense!

[edgy leaf]

between 54 and 160 seconds iirc

[radiant lance]

i've got 1600/600+0.4513 = 3.11 mins time to fill on the platform but i'm too tired (and dumb) to know how long I have before I dip

[radiant lance]

oh jesus that's a scary throughput graph

[leaden cosmos]

you will need a buffer and feed in by 2 pipes or you wont get 600,
doing the math now, you want a train around every 2.6 minutes

[edgy leaf]

eh, 54.16 and 160 isnt that bad, thats over 100 seconds of leeway

[radiant lance]

yea i've got a buffer set up

[edgy leaf]

no, 2.6 minutes is too long. if u set it up for 2.6 minutes and its 4 seconds late u drop below 600

[radiant lance]

been experimenting w this thing for a while to make sure it works right

[leaden cosmos]

living up to your name ❤️

[edgy leaf]

2.6 minutes is 156 seconds. after 160 you drop below 600

[radiant lance]

i suppose the play would be two trains each with wait until full/empty orders?

I just want to give myself enough leeway that any* possible congestion won't stop the fluid delivery
*any does not mean any level of congestion. that would be insane

[patent blaze]

is this channel new? havent seen it until now

[edgy leaf]

its been here since mach 2019

[radiant lance]

hm, i'm trying to datamine and see if i can't find anything interesting about how pipes function and I've found a comment in the pump code that says pump pressure only accounts for the height of the fluid column, and it seems (take with a grain of salt) that both pump head and pressure are the same thing in the calculations, which is why the mk2 pump seems to work much better at pushing fluid forward even when not going up very high

if I'm understanding this right, a pump's pressure will probably stay the same forever horizontally, but once you start going up higher, pressure decreases and the fluid won't move as consistently

i wonder if gas has pressure modelled like this at all or if it ignores pressure due to ignoring headlift

[leaden cosmos]

my understanding is the game fluid sims work on headlift only, there is no pipe drag,
however there is some kind of taper off of flow above the max headlift,
e.g. full flow at 48ish, tapering off to 0 around 60ish

[radiant lance]

yeah, the code has specific variables for pumps to output the pressure they're designed for, and the absolute maximum pressure they can output

[edgy leaf]

yes but for some reason 50 meters of headlift wasnt enough to push water up 8 meters

i went from 50 to 370 and it worked.

[radiant lance]

which is shown ingame with the UI

these variables are interesting: GetMaxHeadLift, GetDesignHeadLift, mMaxPressure, and mDesignPressure

idk enough about this to be able to find the values of these variables to see if they're the same, but it's possible that these are seperate calculations

also just as possible that the headlift and pressure are just the same thing with different names, but i can't really tell

[edgy leaf]

holy fuck not using mods makes everything a billion times more difficult

[patent blaze]

lol

cant you just manifold that

[edgy leaf]

how would i manifold that

[vapid gorge]

looks like you could 1:1 that if you ahve 4 machines to 4 machines

[edgy leaf]

one side is packagers the other side is unpackagers

[radiant lance]

speaking of those mods I found that the game has cheat fluid spawners and fluid sinks in the code, so it's quite possible the mods you were using simply let you build them

[edgy leaf]

im unpackaging 1200 water per minute and packaging 600 water per minute

so 1:1 isnt really possible

[patent blaze]

or like this

[edgy leaf]

yea but i wouldnt gain anything from it

im doing research

[leaden cosmos]

could you not shard a packager? they then do a full 600 pipe per machine?

[edgy leaf]

nope, a fully sharded unpackager does 150

[leaden cosmos]

or am I thinking of nitrogen gas

[patent blaze]

im so confused lol

[edgy leaf]

im going full meta, metameta, metacubed

[patent blaze]

would be dank if you could sloop packagers

infinite liquid generators for power

[leaden cosmos]

I think thats the reason they don't allow it

[edgy leaf]

too op

[radiant lance]

too op and also excruciatingly boring

[fringe pawn]

Is it infinite? Or does it just progressively double fluids until you run out of sloops? I think it still hits a limit, just an absurd one. I agree with the decision not to allow it.

[patent blaze]

its infinite if you have even one sloop, just gets faster if you have more

[edgy leaf]

unpackagers can do 60/min fuel, if they took 1 sloop then you could get 6000/min fuel for free

[patent blaze]

limit output with a valve to make sure it doesnt run out

theoretically.

[edgy leaf]

ell, 6180 because theres 103 sloops

[fringe pawn]

The sloop is the cost. You can disconnect the underlying resource nodes, but you're still limited by the number of sloops.

[edgy leaf]

yep

and 6180 fuel for all the sloops is kinda.. bad ngl

[patent blaze]

honestly i dont see why they wouldnt add it since it only gives so little

[edgy leaf]

itd be fun if there was a long complicated chain that can give you lots of power if you slooop it

like, it gives you nothing by itself but with sloops it gives lots of power per sloop

[patent blaze]

say you have 60/min of fuel you'd only get like what, 30/min per sloop? thats not that much if you multiply it by all the sloops in the game

[edgy leaf]

no, 60/min per sloop

[patent blaze]

if its a 1 sloop machine yeah

manufacturers are 4 sloop for 2x

counting it as a refinery for 2x in and out it'd be 1,5x for every sloop

[fringe pawn]

Honestly, it might be more useful for doubling the empty fluid containers in some weird edge case where you're out of bauxite.

[edgy leaf]

just double the bauxite, or the thing that uses bauxite

[radiant lance]

ok in the unreal editor the mk2 pump only has variables for headlift, so headlift and pressure do seem to be the same thing (which we pretty much already knew but I want to be sure abt how the fundamentals of these godforsaken things work)

there is a variable in here related to slooping. why didn't coffee stain let us sloop pumps

[edgy leaf]

lol

[edgy leaf]

turned it into a blueprint

i wish u didnt gain the items in stuff when dismantling it with no build cost enabled

[leaden cosmos]

now to find out if there is a directional bias 😄

[edgy leaf]

holy fuck. not erally meta related but i just found this hwile building

if u paint a mk6 belt with megawhite it turns into a nuke

[leaden cosmos]

now to make flashbang blueprints 😄

[edgy leaf]

ahaha it even goes beyond 100 i think

i will cry if they patch this

[leaden cosmos]

seems like a good match for my nuclear belts 😄

[edgy leaf]

got down to 5 fps while consrtucting the nuke

beautiful

[leaden cosmos]

yep, flashbang blueprint 😄

[edgy leaf]

oh no, it also happens with non mk6 belts in blueprints...

its being caused by the concrete in this pic lmao

[leaden cosmos]

I mean I don't see an issue 😄

[edgy leaf]

done, couldnt find any

[pastel obsidian]

somone is playing Shapz 2

[leaden cosmos]

that is promising, now is there an easy way for you to rotate the middle junction ?

[edgy leaf]

im not sure what u mean

[edgy leaf]

lol

[faint plover]

hi, will a coal generator setup like this work ? I am not sure about the pipes

[pastel obsidian]

Maybe, if you overclock the water by 50% you can have one extractor to 4 generators makes it a lot easier

Someone will post the wiki article for the coal gen soon

[faint plover]

i already have 1 extra just in case, am just not sure about how the water flows in this game rly, it feels weird

[pastel obsidian]

you normally want to spread out the water extractors

[marsh needle]

3 water extractors goes into 8 coal burners cleanly

[pastel obsidian]

!wikisearch CG

[brisk shore]

https://satisfactory.wiki.gg/index.php?search=CG

[marsh needle]

it feels a little jank but you can actually connect them up to different spaced out points on one long pipe that feeds into the burners

and you won't get bottleneck issues

does anyone have experience implementing a large recycled plastic setup using diluted fuel?

I'm wondering if there's a nice easy way to know how many times to go back and forth

I suppose if I look at the input numbers a bit longer it might become clearer

[leaden cosmos]

you can either go full loop, or more sanely work it backwards in stages
e.g. 3000 plastic out = 1500 rubber + 1500 fuel

[marsh needle]

I'll post the setup in #math-and-meta

[pastel obsidian]

what do mean

[marsh needle]

oh this is that channel lmao

@pastel obsidian are you familiar with this setup? you use the recycled plastic/rubber recipes with fuel to get a very large amount of one product

[pastel obsidian]

I am

[marsh needle]

so I start with 450 rubber, that becomes 900 plastic, then that into 1800 rubber, then 3600 plastic, but the numbers on the calculator don't reflect that

so I'm guessing it's not so simple

[leaden cosmos]

split the output so that 1050 goes back to the earlier refineries and doesnt leave the loop

[pastel obsidian]

in all honesty I would Recomend that you don't use the rubber for polymer as your seed for plastic but i love to try new things

[marsh needle]

I've actually done this setup once before but don't know if I got it perfect

[pastel obsidian]

so you have two setups not one

[marsh needle]

and yeah it does makes sense to have some sort of closed loop that jsut outputs plastic, but I'm not certain what the numbers are

using the polymer is just kinda nice since it's a byproduct of the HOR

[pastel obsidian]

one is polymer rubber into plastic and the other is recycled rubber into plastic

[edgy leaf]

its very simple really

i find it easier than using polymer to feed

[wind spade]

they are exactly that? you just have extra residual rubber

[edgy leaf]

ive made some rather curious discoveries with VIP junctions

if u take the output from the bottom, it prefers the bottom input (in this case)

if u take the output from the side, it prefers the top one

[marsh needle]

I think I can work this without looping back, I just need to add up the outputs as I go and maybe take off some plastic in the middle instead of all at the end if necessary

[edgy leaf]

its easiest with looping imo

just work backwards

[marsh needle]

I want to get this setup working with the polymer, I know it's simpler to not do that but this is what I want to achieve

[pastel obsidian]

You need to make 5100 plastic and use 1050 to make rubber

[leaden cosmos]

build it as a loop and just split off the output of some of the plastic refineries as the part that exists the loop

[pastel obsidian]

4050 is profit

[edgy leaf]

lol, rofl, lmao.

i loaded the save and both vips are switched now

double u tee eff

[leaden cosmos]

well thats even more fun

[edgy leaf]

actual insanity

the ones with pumps broke, the ones without didnt.

[marsh needle]

alright thanks for the advice, I need to go eat food and maybe sleep, so I won't be tackling this just now

@pastel obsidian I think I'm going to go ahead and work starting with the 900 rubber and hope the numbers are as expected when I get to the end

i think u pointing out that I make 5100 total plastic helps a lot actually, that's twice the total rubber produced, which helps get my head around it

I think it will also help if I stop listening to the worst of goat simulator

[pastel obsidian]

I would thinkof it as two different systems one that uses rubber made from plastic and the other uses rubber made from polymer

[edgy leaf]

50% makes the end product, 33.3333% makes the thing that you need to make the endproduct and 16.6666% makes the endproduct but for the thing that you need to make the end product

[marsh needle]

yeah

[edgy leaf]

thats when u dont use rubber to feed it

[marsh needle]

so 17.5 plastic refineries output into rubber, the rest goes into my mouth

I think that simplifies it a bit, I can still have a loop just there's an extra bit of input from residual rubber

[vapid gorge]

@dire shard what are you building btw?

[marsh needle]

the only thing I have to think about now is jsut belting it all around, because there's too much for a single belt

wonder if I should consider setting up multiple closed loops instead for simplicity

[swift robin]

anyone else considering copper rotors just because the production rate and how it pairs perfectly with steel screws?

i used to say 'ew use copper on those?' but now i'm rethinking...

[wind spade]

copper rotors are great

[swift robin]

with all the ways to boost copper production i realize i have a lot more copper at my disposal than i used to think

that'll probably all disappear once i get to nuclear pasta tho XD

also i just realized how long you can run vehicles on batteries. i could legit just set up a truck stop with a container full of batteries and forget about it. hmmmm

[wind spade]

it's 8 copper ore + some screws -> 10 rotors 😄

[swift robin]

yeah the resource efficiency of it is impressive

just jam a steel screw constructor right behind it and you get a compact setup that makes a lot of rotors

[marsh needle]

a thought occurs to me, what the fuck am I gonna do with 4050 plastic/min, I don't even have mk. 6 belts yet I can't even fit that on 5 mk. 5 belts

do I need like 6 train cars to ship it about the place

[edgy leaf]

:)

[swift robin]

yikes i'm avoiding large central production as long as i can just to avoid logistical puzzles like that lol

[wind spade]

why are you making it if you don't need it?

[pastel obsidian]

big number is big

[swift robin]

damn that is a strong card

[marsh needle]

maybe 20 years ago lmao

[swift robin]

needs to be in a deck that generates HP somehow, but good card draw

[marsh needle]

I have a big pure caterium ingot setup that can output a ton of quickwire, so I will make a bunch of electronics, there's some nice alts that use those two things and also it goes into computers and connectors and stuff

[edgy leaf]

its really easy actually, just load it onto trains. trains are logistics cheat basically

[swift robin]

likewise i have been doing quite a lot with the single caterium node in the middle of the rocky desert. making ai limiters and caterium computers with it but i still have like 120 ingot/min unallocated thanks to pure caterium ingot + fused quickwire being insane

[swift robin]

people keep telling me this but i keep avoiding trains because it looks like a huge building project that i need to make blueprints for lol

[edgy leaf]

eh, i just have a single little train blueprint

[marsh needle]

trains tkae a bunch of work, but they are great for moving lots of stuff around

[edgy leaf]

well two, one for normal and one for t junction

[marsh needle]

I guess I can feed two belts into a big container and load that into a freight platform, so only need three platforms if it's all going into one station

[edgy leaf]

tho the t junction one doesnt have rails built in

[crystal charm]

how far can a truck run on a single load of coal?

[wind spade]

depends on driving style, terrain and such

[crystal charm]

mostly flat, a few hills

and about a ~2km round trip

[wind spade]

still, very much depends

[crystal charm]

only reason i want to use a truck is simply cause i haven't yet

i could literally just drone drop the supplies in

[wind spade]

truck uses 75 MW, stack of coal is 30 GJ, so at least 400 seconds

probably more, again depending on driving style etc.

[crystal charm]

ah fuck it, i like drones

[fallen geyser]

unfortunately, any life-for-card-draw strategy not centered around reanimating this guy for cheap is suboptimal

[prisma kraken]

the question isn't 'how far', but 'how much time does it take to burn'

[crystal charm]

the question was scrapped in favour drones like 30 minutes ago 😛

[prisma kraken]

fair 'nuf

btw, tractors get a heckuva lot more range

[crystal charm]

i should probably go check on my battery supply, i might need to beef it up

[prisma kraken]

also, small side note: vehicles actuall have more range with coke, even though it burns quicker, it's 200 stack size provides more range

*than coal

[crystal charm]

i know i get more out of this game when i have coke

[crystal charm]

if i want to try to double the throughput on drones, i can't build more than one for a port can i

[wind spade]

yeah, but you can build more drone ports

[crystal charm]

i ahve 2 drone ports for receiving coal to turn into diamonds

each port gets about 377 p/m

i know that the source is basically 2 full t5 belts full

[wind spade]

those can technically accept as many drones as you need

[crystal charm]

so, i could built more ports at the source and send them here

[grand jasper]

my aluminum deadlocked again. im at a loss.

[wind spade]

build it so that it can't deadlock 😛

[grand jasper]

but how? how can i bring it to use the rest water first and then the outside water?

[wind spade]

separate fresh and recycled water

[vapid gorge]

don't merge the fresh and waste

[crystal charm]

i had a similar issue for ages, turns out the bauxite was the issue lol

[grand jasper]

i have 420 reclycled and 180 fresh. so i fo some clock adjustements so it works then?

[vapid gorge]

if you keep them seperate, yes. Just a matter of clocking

[vapid gorge]

the first image were example ratios of the different recipes you can use
the 2nd image is an example of a systme. Blue line for fresh water ,red for waste

[grand jasper]

that helped a lot thanks. ill see how it performs now 🙂

[crystal charm]

#screenshots message

that should be enough i hope, one port to bring in batteries and 2 delivery ports per single receiver on the other end

[thorn trellis]

Yo I got a question for u r u good with fluids

[wind spade]

https://dontasktoask.com/

[thorn trellis]

Wild

[wintry marlin]

this should split 1:7 correctly, right? (it wont be close to belt capacity)

[thorn trellis]

Alright so basically

[thorn trellis]

I’ve already asked u before about trains moving fluids but I decided I wanted to use Trains for a design aspect. Would it be possible to fuel everything efficiently with trains or is it not possible

Red square is where it has to go to

I’m using all those nodes 250% overclocked

I have no clue if it’s doable

[wind spade]

the word "efficiently" has basically no meaning on it's own. Not sure what do you even mean by "fuel everything", given trains run on power

[thorn trellis]

Sorry I mean like all the buildings r receiving the amount they need per min

Like the menu inside the building says 100% efficiency

[wind spade]

sure, but that has nothing to do with moving fluids

[thorn trellis]

Ah I’m just worried that ill make a train route but the buildings won’t receive everything at the rate they need

Like I know there’s a max that trains can transport and that pipes can extract from the stations and all that

[wind spade]

you can build more trains, more platforms, more stations...

[thorn trellis]

True I got one question tho is it possible to make a train only take a certain amount of fluid

[wind spade]

not sure why are you pinging me with every message. Questions like these are better asked in general, not to one specific person

[wintry marlin]

see, i fixed my power

[thorn trellis]

Sorry just wanted to ask in case u knew