math-and-meta

[vapid gorge]

this is the one awkward spot in the game for manifolds

[night pasture]

it is, but I just stacked all the packegers in one place

the bottom tier packages the water and sends them to the diluted fuel refineries, and the top gets the packaged fuel and sends the empties back down.

there's 7 sets of packagers for every 7 refineries making the diluted fuel

this should be producing about 1600m^3 of fuel per min

oh I get what you are saying lol

[unique tree]

I havent worked with fluids in a long time, and now im making a big fuel gen factory. Where should I add fluid buffers? and where to employ other techniques?

[night pasture]

not really needed unless you want to save some fuel reserves off to the side

[unique tree]

i meant more for fuild mechanics, cause theyre wonky

[river night]

fluid buffers just add to the wonky, dont resolve it

[oblique hollow]

Buffers, if used, should definitely have a pipeline pump on the "exit" side (if it has one in your system)
else the buffer "absorbs" the headlift unil it is full

That is just about the only "rule" for using a buffer in a system
But the buffer usually wont do much

[wintry marlin]

@ashen girder i promised u some of my belt monstrosities, butdw, they are all neathly on highways

[edgy leaf]

thats insane

i love it. speaking of insanity, im handcrafting my way to phase 5

because who needs automation

[upper arrow]

idk who am calling, but im calling someone for this

[edgy leaf]

i can start automating ai limiters when i have mk6 belts come one, who would ever automate ai limiters WITHOUT mk6 belts??

this is all u need

[verbal lake]

decent strat, esp when you can just pull from dimension storage

[edgy leaf]

yup, especially with slooping

only need 250 super computers, for those super computers i only need half as many components as u used to, and the same for those components

[cursive heron]

do drones consume fuel while its hovering over an occupied port

[upper arrow]

for whatever reason my train goes into the station normally but goes back how it came in instead of circling around
(the other station isnt a circle)

[cyan loom]

why are you levitating

[upper arrow]

huh

[cyan loom]

am i missing something

[upper arrow]

jetpack

[cyan loom]

(the train tracks)

[upper arrow]

oh lol

[cyan loom]

realism✨✨✨

[upper arrow]

that comes afterwards

[cursive heron]

what does the exit of the station look like

[upper arrow]

no reason to build foundations if the factory changes every time

[cyan loom]

I played this game like a year ago

i forgot how funky it was

[past reef]

why do you have a loop though

that looks like a push pull setup

[upper arrow]

cause i had to added more input into station 2 and instead of just completely changing the station here i addeda loop

[cursive heron]

I don't get it its working normally, thats the entrance

[past reef]

if your train takes the loop into the station it needs to take the loop out of the station to keep the alignment

you connected the exit so the train takes the loop in but takes the short way out and flip

[upper arrow]

with alignment you mean what exactly?

well the idea is suppost to be that it goes in and then exits the loop by completing the loop

my question is how i can fix it, if possible

[cursive heron]

by going back to where it came because its a push pull train? this is a question

[upper arrow]

huh

[past reef]

just cut off the loop or make another one on another station

[upper arrow]

so basically i cant have push pull on one station and a loop on another?

[cursive heron]

if im getting this right your train atm is entering and exiting on the same track
but you want it to complete the loop

[past reef]

yeah the loop on push pull would flip the freight, wouldn't matter if you process it with smart splitter after that

[upper arrow]

right now this makes sense

[cursive heron]

and its destination isn't a loop thats why you have it as a push pull config?

[upper arrow]

yeah what random just said makes sense
if i would make a loop + push pull the train would

but now that i think about it that wouldnt matter cause input and output would be always the same direction

[past reef]

if loco A comes first through the loop then loco A exits the loop first which means loco A will come second

[upper arrow]

yeah but in the end the setup for me woudl still work cause loading is push/pulkl so the flip of the train wouldnt matter

[past reef]

yeah it shouldn't flip , fun feature for the train track I suppose

[zealous bronze]

Is there a way to force satisfactorytools.com to use an alternate recipe?

[edgy leaf]

yes, disable the normal ones

[zealous bronze]

ooh nice. thank youu!

[cursive heron]

if anyones interested this is about 3.5km distance, so with some overhead probably make 3.5~4 packaged rocketfuel per drone

[fervent notch]

Is there a way to make a drone not drop off its cargo at a specific drone port?

[cursive heron]

dont make it go there?

drones can go only go between home to destination, there's no reason why it shouldn't pickup/dropoff the cargo

[fervent notch]

I was trying to make a drone port thats sole purpose was refueling

[cursive heron]

drones can't make a secondary stop.
if you want a port solely for refueling (many to one) leave that port unocuppied.
Then at point A you need two drones ports and one drone, one that goes to the refueling port and the other port being the supply

[quaint lance]

Your initial train station platform is facing the wrong direction if I am correct.

[upper arrow]

You mean on the pic is facing the wrong side?

[cursive heron]

like this
rule of thumb is that if a port is used for supply it shouldn't be home to a drone because drones don't leave until they fully unload their cargo

[fervent notch]

Ok, Thank you for Ilustrating

[topaz jetty]

Anyone can give me an example of a contained package -> refinery -> unpackage design for diluted packaged fuel?

[pulsar bronze]

if you can make something out of it xD

its a closed loop for canisters

[cursive heron]

this is what I did before

[topaz jetty]

Originally I was just linking making 1 line of each but that didn’t always work

[pulsar bronze]

depends on how much u need i guess

i use mine just to power remote outposts with portals that have no power lines

[past reef]

90 oil to 240 fuel per module

[topaz jetty]

Is it a BP?

[fervent notch]

Why 3 ports per area? Can i do it with just 2?

[past reef]

top view mb

yeah I made 3 5x5 bp for it

[cursive heron]

only two, the other ports are just to represent additional ports in the area

[fervent notch]

Check your DMs

[topaz jetty]

Ah if you could dm me the files that would be helpful

[pulsar bronze]

its alive!

[fervent notch]

So the problem im having now is its not refueling? I tell it to go to the refueling one and it just circles above it

[cursive heron]

is the drone port powered

[fervent notch]

Yeeah it might not be... Im going to check lol

It is

Apparently i turned the station off at some point tho

[cursive heron]

is there a drone occupying it already

[fervent notch]

Okay and now the drone just isnt listening to me?

[gloomy palm]

#satisfactory-memes message

does nobody find this concerning, regarding game balance

the doubling thing..

very strange decision for such a balance focused game

[fervent notch]

For some reason the drone is just not listening to me now? Its just going back and forth between 2 ports

[pulsar bronze]

u mean the somerslops?

[noble timber]

But then you need to go and find sloops and a constant supply of nuc hogs

[gloomy palm]

you only need the sloops once

but i can understand the hog supply issue

[pulsar bronze]

there are fine with me - after all they are limited so you cant really rely on them

[gloomy palm]

you're still duplicating things

can you duplicate the nuclear fuel rods with the sloops?

[cursive heron]

yes

[pulsar bronze]

and you pay the price with dramatic power consumption

[gloomy palm]

Ah

[noble timber]

Yeah but those are sloops you could use elsewhere

[gloomy palm]

hmmm

[noble timber]

Like in doubling fuel rods

[cursive heron]

slooping nuclear rod production is only worth on plutonium fuel units since they are assemblers

[noble timber]

I’m not sure the extra energy gained is worth it though, not looked at the numbers

[cursive heron]

otherwise you get more power turning them into power augmenters

[gloomy palm]

power augmenters can result in more power than using the sloops to duplicate the nuclear fuels?

[pulsar bronze]

but that depends on how much u networ has since its a percentage

[gloomy palm]

Ah

[pulsar bronze]

normal power aug gives u 10% boost

feed with matrices 30%

[cursive heron]

there is a threshold yes, but if you're building nuclear you're probably already beyond that threshold

[pulsar bronze]

so the bigger you power prod is the more profitable it gets

[gloomy palm]

yeah

[pulsar bronze]

agreed

[median sun]

This is still funny to me

[cursive heron]

also slooping plutonium means more waste, not that the waste was ever really a problem

[gloomy palm]

howwwwwwwwwww

[median sun]

Particle Accelerators work a little weird when you're looking at power consumption.

[gloomy palm]

😮

[pulsar bronze]

notice the power consumption - thats the price you pay

[gloomy palm]

but still, the max consumption can't ever be less than actual consumption

seems like a bug

[gloomy palm]

16 gigawatts lmao

[fervent notch]

Can someone help me? My drone isnt following the path im giving it?

[pulsar bronze]

16 at the moment

[gloomy palm]

26 is the max

[pulsar bronze]

it fluctuates from 0 to 26,862

[cursive heron]

slooped accelerators my beloved

[upbeat tide]

You mean truck or tractor? Drones dont have player made paths last I saw

[cursive heron]

though the energy increase from slooped manufs/assemblers at that stage is negligible

[fervent notch]

No i meant its not going to the port im telling it to go to

[pulsar bronze]

describe your setup

[upbeat tide]

Ooh

Yea whats the setup?

[cursive heron]

double check the name of the destination port

[fervent notch]

Ya the names are all correct. I even changed them to nothing and changed them back and still not working

[pulsar bronze]

so you have destination set for the drone

and its not taking off?

[upbeat tide]

Got batteries?

[jovial mortar]

guys help how am I supost to do this I produse 150 nuclear waste pm and i need to turn it in to encased plutonium cells but i have no idea how tf i'm suppose to split the uranium waste between the particle accelerator and the blenders

[cursive heron]

the way he's describing it is that he has port A going to port B but instead its going to port C for some reason which is physically impossible

[fervent notch]

Kinda, Its going from Port A to Port B which is correct but then from Port B i want it to goto Port C but its going back to Port A for some reason

[cursive heron]

because it can't do that

[pulsar bronze]

pay attention on which port you build a drone

[upbeat tide]

It cant chain ports like that

[cursive heron]

it can only go from home to destination back to home

[pulsar bronze]

but you can have a drone on both home and destination

and they can do different routes

maybe thats the problem - you mixed up your drones

[cursive heron]

you didn't follow the diagram I gave

[fervent notch]

I only have 1 drone. I assumed you could have to do a round trip before going home but i guess it cant?

[upbeat tide]

You can go from
A to B
A to C
But will need C to D
And even D to B would work, etc

[pulsar bronze]

no - one drone = one route

[fervent notch]

Oh well thats lame

[pulsar bronze]

you could do 2 drones A-B and B-C

[cursive heron]

What you wanted to happen from B-C can only happen if you put a drone on port B

[pulsar bronze]

but without carefull unloading they can get stuck

[fervent notch]

I was trying to build a port that was only for refueling and have the drones stop there on the end of their trip to refuel but like i said i thought they worked differently

[cursive heron]

follow the diagram

[pulsar bronze]

you can go with refueling port but you need a dedicated runners for fuel only

[cursive heron]

what you want to happen is have a drone in port A and port C both of them going to port B (that isn't home to a drone)

[upbeat tide]

Uranium waste > regular non fissle uranium recipe > plut cells alt > plut rods alt

Best progression imo

[jovial mortar]

no but i mean rates

[pulsar bronze]

you setup a droneport without a drone on it with accumulators ( or other drone fuel ) in it
now lets say you want to mine uranium with drones
you place 2 drone ports :

• one to transport uranium
• second one to transport drone fuel for both

[cursive heron]

manifold?

[upbeat tide]

Your not making a ton of waste so just a basic manifold should do

[fervent notch]

I guess the diagram is too confusing lol idk

[cursive heron]

I'm assuming you're trying to make it go to fertile uranium and plutnium pellet, just manifold it

[jovial mortar]

k imma gonna try to manafold it

[thorn bane]

30 pellets is 100 NFU and 25 waste
100 NFU is 75 waste
so 30 pellets is 75 waste for NFU + 25 waste so its a 1/4 split

[jovial mortar]

k im going to try to make something out of that

[upper arrow]

sry i was out, which one, you mean, the one i have in the picture or the other one?

[jovial mortar]

oh and btw can you sink the encased plutonium pellets?

[upper arrow]

is there a way to combine push pull station with loop station for trains
i was out so i couldnt work on it anymore but i tried to google smth but found nothing

[thorn bane]

no
but you can sink the plutonium fuel rod

[jovial mortar]

god dam it

[thorn bane]

or turn it into ficsonium 🙃

[jovial mortar]

nuclear was a mistake

[thorn bane]

its fine
building the plutonium rods and sinking isnt too bad
and its still an insane amount of power

[jovial mortar]

if only satisfactory tools could acount FOR REACTORS PRODUCING SOMETHING

THAN I WOULDENT HAVE TO DO THIS MY SELF

[thorn bane]

https://www.satisfactorytools.com/1.0/production?share=QDixWjrhD8F7QUocxYLJ
ye it sucks but theres a workaround

[jovial mortar]

i did not notice that

[mossy trail]

My water extractor produces 200 water, two of my blenders uses 200 water (100 water each). Blenders also recieve 50 heavy oil residue each from refinery that produces 100 heavy oil residue. Yet, they work at 92% efficiency. Why?

[upper arrow]

where they full from the getgo?

[verbal lake]

the UI shows you can't get rid of fuel fast enough, if it tried to do the recipe again it would overfill its buffer

[jovial mortar]

holy shiskebab it worked ty ZyRaNex

[wind spade]

the problem is that it's not a recipe so the tools don't know about it

[white bloom]

3/4ths into Blender, 1/4th into PA. So you build 2 splitters and 1 merger. input goes to S1. S1 has 2 out, 1 to S2 and 1 to M1. S2 has 2 out, 1 to M1, 1 to PA. M1 to Blender.

[mossy trail]

Fuel goes for turbofuel, two blenders generate 200 fuel, and then produce 600 turbofuel

How to fix this? I need to use valves?

[wind spade]

never use valves

[thorn bane]

check the turbofuel blenders are they also 92%?

[jovial mortar]

welp you know what time it is! ITS PLUTONIUM TIME

[wind spade]

loop the pipe, feed from above, prefill the system

should work

[thorn bane]

or split in 2 and only have 300 in 1 pipe

[white bloom]

or account for covering the power cost of its own production chain and taking that into account during maximization. 😉

[wind spade]

even then my suggestion still applies

[jovial mortar]

i alredy figured it out

[mossy trail]

Two are like this

[thorn bane]

ye the issue is not the fuel its the turbofuel

are you sure you have enough gens build for it?

[white bloom]

yah, output is backing up

the turbofuel sometimes can't go anywhere so it halts the machines

[mossy trail]

30 turbo-fuel goes to packaged fuel. It's 100% efficient. The rest goes to the energy. I will check each generator right now.

[last shell]

do you have any headlift issues or really long pipes that reduce throughput?

[mossy trail]

Two of the generators underperformes. They are the last in line.

[thorn bane]

ye sounds like a pipe throughput issue
pipes have problems doing 600/min in certain conditions so just split it into 2 systems of 300/min each coming from 1 blender per and it should be fixed

[past reef]

how do you have backed up blender output when the pipes don't look full

[thorn bane]

pipe throughput issue

[past reef]

turbofuel is 150 at most but still

but the machine will always eject fluid in output buffer then whatever happens in the pipe is separate?

[last shell]

yeah it sounds like you are loosing pressure. you could try putting a pump at half way to counteract that. Has halt me in some occasions

[thorn bane]

pump dont work like that, they only increase headlift not throughput

[past reef]

could turn off the last machines and wait out until the highest altitude pipe fill

[last shell]

ik they dont it still has helped me for some reason :D

maybe it was the headlift reset or something like that

[past reef]

I recommend slooping the blenders temporarily while the pipe fully fill up

[thorn bane]

how is that helping if the blender is backed up on turbofuel?

[past reef]

logically if the producing machine backs up the entire pipe system must be filled so maybe a headlift issue, we do see a lifted pipe in that screenshot

[mossy trail]

I believe I don't need a headlift because it's under 10meters? The pipe goest through all generators. Red ones underperformes

[thorn bane]

its the last in line because the pipe cant handle 600/min
split it into 2 at 300/min

[past reef]

with that many junctions it'd struggle to 600 per min

[verbal lake]

i have had pump fix this issue before 🤷🏿‍♂️

i know it shouldn't make sense but I have a similar set-up that did not work until I palced a pump and the pump says it is giving 1.8 headlift but all is perfectly level

[mossy trail]

Damn. I hoped for simpler solution. Thank you! Should I remove Fluid Buffer? I put it here just in case. Is it doing anything here?

[thorn bane]

nope since production and consumption are constant (idealy xd)

[mossy trail]

I will try it, where should I put it?

[verbal lake]

fluid buffer might also cause weirdness at the end there with sloshing back?

[pulsar bronze]

how long the system is running?

[mossy trail]

At least 15 hours

[pulsar bronze]

at perfect ratios?

you might try to power down the consumers at fluid entrance

so the fluid fills the whole system + machine buffers at the end of the chain

then power up again and see what happens

[verbal lake]

mine is at top right corner in your map

[vital garden]

im well aware i dont need this much but i wanted to use 1 pure oil node and 1 pure catirium node and see what i could make with it while keeping the numbers mostly ok

[pulsar bronze]

what do you mean!?!
you always need more xD

[vital garden]

the factory must grow

[pulsar bronze]

indeed

[vital garden]

i could make more if i used more recycled plastic instead of turning it into turbo fuel but this factory will be net + 2850mw when its completed

[past reef]

you can't siphon out the turbofuel for personal use like this though

[vital garden]

it clearly will be used to power other factories to support the save the day program

[pulsar bronze]

why cant he?

[vital garden]

im being an efficient pioneer

[past reef]

no extra resin for canister, to be fair can drop some circuit board for it

[vital garden]

what is this resin for canisters you speak of

[thorn bane]

new alt? /s

[mossy trail]

Blender for personal use goes separate way (to the right). It doesn't connect with other turbofuel and generators

[tame birch]

How much Uranium Fuel Rod do I need per minute to power one Nuclear Power Plant?

[past reef]

I mean with those input you can't really get empty canister (iron + copper or steel or resin/plastic)

[pulsar bronze]

100% nuclear uses 0.2 uranium fuel rods per minute

[tame birch]

Thanks

[vital garden]

yea i mean ig i wasnt planning on making them

[jovial mortar]

this may seem random but how much uranium waste do reactors produce per minute?

[past reef]

yeah doesn't hurt, cause personal use turbofuel would be like 30-50 pm (with rifle ammo) so annoying to set up separately

[last shell]

is it reliable to use the maximize feature on satisfactorytools.com to figure out with arrangement is best when all alts and mains are activated?

[vital garden]

i was just gonna use homing ammo anyway but thanks for the tip, i didnt think about that. i asko have regular fuel being produced somewhere else so im using that for the jet pack

[trim oar]

somehow the refinery is able to push the sulfuric acid all the way up the pipe? how?

[last shell]

im guessing the pump headlift just gets added to the refineries output

[trim oar]

the pump is facing the camera tho

[thorn bane]

the wiki is awesome 🙃

[trim oar]

and it didnt work before i added the pump

[mossy trail]

So 600/min pipes are useless? I shouldn't use them at all?

[trim oar]

who told you that?

[thorn bane]

its complicated xd
there are wokrarounds by looping the pipes and connecting in different parts and what not
see:
#1289420223979716710 message
#1288098263504916503 message
etc.
but i personally just tread tham as having 550 max and if i need more than that then i just build 2

[trim oar]

you can use the mk2 pipe as feed, use the buffer and get two seperate mk1 lines dividing all the generators on these

[tough pebble]

No, it's just that due to how the game calculates fluid dynamics, you usually won't get quite 600 per minutes worth of flow, but you will be able to get significantly more than 300.

[last shell]

weird :D

[past reef]

the more complex the pipe system the more likely for liquid to bounce around and drop effective throughput, you can have a 1 junction pipe doing 600 pm fine

[quick tinsel]

ok so, i have a problem i dont know why but the polimer is getting backed up so after like 10h it gets fulled so the energy gets fucked. can someone help me?

ik the grammar is incorrect but english aint my first lenguage

[thorn bane]

build a smart splitter and an awesome sink
set the output of the splitter to "overflow" and send it to the sink
that way it will always work

[wind spade]

they are completely fine

[wind spade]

it's not game's fault. It's fault of player when pipes don't work 🙂

[thorn bane]

it 100% is the games fault
description is "600/min"
not "600/min sometimes if stuff is right but even then sometimes not idk fluidmechanics are hard"

[quick tinsel]

thanks, i dont have smart splitters but for now i have overclocked everything in hope it fixes something xd

[velvet venture]

Broken tip for the new players I just learned yesterday

[last shell]

i would always use smart splitters when any item can stop production to get backed up. You never know when it can happen

[last shell]

same goes for alien parts -> protein -> dna. You get 4x dna from parts to sink :D

[quick tinsel]

when i get them ill use them

[wind spade]

description is "can have 600 flow"
pipes are bidirectional
so if you have 500 flow in one direction and 100 flow in another, you have 600 flow

how is that game's fault?

[pulsar bronze]

so polymer gets backed up but not the plastic even though you should burn everytnijg to make plastic?

[velvet venture]

Overclocking should have no effect right? Because it uses twice the inputs aswell?

[last shell]

yep just makes it faster

[quick tinsel]

no, the plastic also

[thorn bane]

if it was well explained that why do people not understand it

[pulsar bronze]

are the packagers working at 100?

[last shell]

you can probably get the right now! they are pretty accesible in the caterium tree in the mam

[wind spade]

because most people don't understand that pipes are bidirectional and think about them as if they were belts

[pulsar bronze]

how much gas the packagers need to package all?

[quick tinsel]

probably but im dealing with fase 3 automating things, ill do that later

[pulsar bronze]

120 * 3?

and how much gas your pipe can provide to them?

[quick tinsel]

40

[thorn bane]

the issue isnt the bidirectional part? its the water hammer part propagating backwards
if you had a bidirectional belt then it would work at 600/min because a machine taking items wouldnt create reverse flow

[wind spade]

it would tho

[pulsar bronze]

try to pinpoint which machine at the end of the chain is not working at 100%

[quick tinsel]

i think the problem are the packagers because the plastic gets backd up there

[mossy trail]

This should fix my problem, right?

[pulsar bronze]

so - are they working at 100? if so how much plastic they should burn

if not - why not?

[wind spade]

without the buffer

generally I recommend building it this way

[quick tinsel]

they are working fine, i have 3 refineries producing 60 plastic per min, so i put 2 packagers that need 30 each if my math is mathing everything should be alright but it isent

[mossy trail]

Why?

[thorn bane]

or like this with each blender providing 300/min

[wind spade]

see #math-and-meta message

[cloud comet]

Are there any benefits to using trains/trucks for item transportation vs conveyor belts?

[quick tinsel]

faster

[wind spade]

faster is irrelevant

[thorn bane]

they look cool lul

[wind spade]

can fit more throughput on single road/rail

[cloud comet]

Couldn't I also accomplish that with more conveyor belts?

Like connect my conveyors through 3x conveyor walls

[thorn bane]

yep

[cloud comet]

And just scale it vertically as I need

[pulsar bronze]

truck or train can easyly distribute multiple different resources along the route

[quick tinsel]

more work/more expensive

[pulsar bronze]

you need only 1 train track and you ready to go

instead of multiple different belts

[wind spade]

yes, but for trains you just build one rail and have multiple trains/cars go there instead of having to build more belts

[pulsar bronze]

i would double check every machine if its working at 100% efficiency
if it does and the ratios are ok then there should be no backup at all

maybe your packagers dont get enough gas so they cant use all the bottles for packaging?

[last shell]

do you have any tips for making the throughput of items reliable on a train network or its it just best to have seperate train lines for sperate factories

[mossy trail]

100% efficiency on every machine. Thanks everyone, today I learned a lot about pipes.

[wind spade]

buffer on both ends (always required)
don't go close to train throughput, or add another train if you do

[cloud comet]

Do cheap silica & fine concrete yield more silica and concrete together compared to just quartz>silica and wet concrete?

[last shell]

dont go to close as in have the train transport more items than you use?

[wind spade]

yeah, definitely

[last shell]

okay thanks

[quick tinsel]

na bro, its all working 100%

i think maybi the game is just dumb

[pulsar bronze]

not possible xD

[thorn bane]

i personally would use cheap silica and wet concrete since you usually have more limestone around than quartz
also quartz purification is goated

[quick tinsel]

thats what i thought so thats why i asked

[pulsar bronze]

my last try:

this belt - is it at least mk2?

[quick tinsel]

mark 4

[pulsar bronze]

so idk - you must miss something - maybe a belt fragment somewhere near the splitter / merger is slower

[upper arrow]

im currently trying to manifold smth with 1280 input (4x12.3 assembler)
i set up my manifold like this and im not sure if this will work or not
in theory it should work but im not certain if it will so thats why i wanted to ask if i overlooked smth

i have mk4 belts

[pulsar bronze]

it happens when u build splitter on the existing belt and hit it right at the join, then upgrade and miss that little bit

[sharp verge]

why do these keep turning into nuclear waste water? its fine for a bit and then it changes

[upper arrow]

get used to place splitter/merger first then connect with belts

[upper arrow]

iirc is a bug

[pulsar bronze]

thats the safe way to do it

[upper arrow]

so it will go to 100% efficiency eventually?

like im letting my game run for now so it works out but eh

[quick tinsel]

every belt is moving so its not that

[sharp verge]

so what do i do?

[upper arrow]

rebuild, thats all ive heard you can do,

[pulsar bronze]

yyym - sry im not sure what we are talking about 😛

[upper arrow]

i thought you replied to my problem mb

[sharp verge]

rebuild as in place them again? cuz that didnt fix it. or rebuild as in move them?

[pulsar bronze]

if ratios are ok, everything is working 100% theres no possibility of a big backup - might be some flustuations due to machine work time but thats it

[upper arrow]

destroy and rebuild, shoudl fix the problem momentarily but yeah isnt a permanent fix

[pulsar bronze]

a little room in your plastic buffers for work fluctuations should be enough and there should be no backup - its just impossible

[quick tinsel]

problaby that, for now i will get mark 2 pipes to get more gas to overclock everything xd

[sharp verge]

yeah. did that and it fixed it for like a few minutes

[upper arrow]

yeah sadly thats all we have so far, i know they konw about it and it should be fixed on the next patch (and i thought it did but i didntt have that problem yet so thats all i can say for now)

[quick tinsel]

done, hope it fixes it

[thorn bane]

dont think so

belt throughput is complicated, there are 3 solutions:
belt compression units
injection manifolds
dont manifold lul, make 4 lines of 320

[quick tinsel]

if not when i get smart splitters i will send them to the shreder

[pulsar bronze]

its such a shame doing that!
its like giving up 😦

[cloud comet]

Just getting closed to completing phase 3, is there a power source I'll be unlocking soon or should I use power sparingly for a while? I have 18k production and 4k average consumption rn, I was thinking about making pure caterium & pure copper and then fused quickwire with a pure caterium mine, but there'll be like 60 refineries, 10 water extractors, 30 assemblers and more and the power consumption kinda scares me
I don't need that much quickwire but I thought I'd future-proof my quickwire production line

[wind spade]

yeah just hook each belt to the exact amount of machines needed to process that belt

[quick tinsel]

why? that ''factory'' i just use it for gas containers, the excess i can trow so i get more tikets for the satisfactory platinum

[pulsar bronze]

yeah - but sink intentionally - not because you fcked up the ratios xD

[past reef]

fuel power a bit later into tier 5

[cloud comet]

I have fuel power already

[thorn bane]

more fuel power
or turbofuel

[past reef]

turbofuel gives slightly more power but yeah nothing more until tier 8 nuclear or rocket fuel

[quick tinsel]

do u think i care about ratios?

[past reef]

you can set up another 540 oil 18GW plant and space it out for turbo blend fuel or/and rocket fuel later

[pulsar bronze]

the problem with system like that is that it doesnt scale well
dont overcomplicate - use the "KISS" principle 😉

[upper arrow]

so best to just 3 to 4 balancer

[upper arrow]

telling me to keep it simple doesnt help me in the least

[wind spade]

no, just connect each belt to number of machines it needs

[upper arrow]

well i have my assembler set up already

[wind spade]

if you have 480 belt, connect it to machines that eat 480 in total

[upper arrow]

i have 4x 12,8 assembler lines

[wind spade]

well, you should learn to not build factory before considering logistics 🙂

[upper arrow]

yes but its not like this is a unsolveable issue i should have thought before how todo it ^^

[wind spade]

no, but all the solutions are weird because you have a weird problem 🙂

[upper arrow]

its something i will consider in the future

but now my issues is how can i balance this to work

[past reef]

that 12.3 assemblers already give weird clock number though, can fiddle around with the clock number to make them closer to 480

[upper arrow]

its 12.8 mb

[thorn bane]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_rXrJ8CWyjNExcayArby3HjRpDUXV5sd8QvFrdNZxBc/edit?pli=1

[wind spade]

how much does one row of assemblers need?

[upper arrow]

320

i have 1 line which is perfect but gotta get 3 lines out of 2x480 if i got that correct

[wind spade]

hook 320 belt to one
hook the two 480 belts to one each, overflow both and merge the overflows to last one

[pulsar bronze]

so to simplify - you have 4 lines that need 320 resources each and you have 3 mk 4 belts of the resource?

[upper arrow]

i hate how simple this solution is and how i didnt think about it

[cloud comet]

How is possible that I got 1 less than I input materials for?

I put 500 of both motors and smart plating and this is the result

[thorn bane]

sloop doesnt work on first cycle

[upper arrow]

ty greeny

[cloud comet]

Smh, why is that a thing

[past reef]

sloop and run a random cycle before changing recipe

[wind spade]

clock and sloop changes only apply after a cycle finishes

[thorn bane]

wait has anyone checked if mk6s actually do 1200 or if its less like the old mk5 bug?

[wind spade]

there never was mk5 bug

what people called "mk5 bug" was actually "belt to belt connection bug", which got fixed ages ago

[oblique hollow]

they kinda clamped and stabilized belts to fix that

what was an issue in mk 5 was some sort of bubble forming and never decreasing but i think ben got that to work out too

[wind spade]

oh yeah but that was like a few weeks or something only right?

[thorn bane]

i just noticed that mk6 lifts dont have visual items anymore cause "they would go too fast"

[mossy trail]

Guys, I have a logistics question. How do you bring down bauxite to the water? Almost all bauxite is 200-250 meters high. I think drones out of the question, because of low throughput. And I dont watn to use ridiculously long belts or spiraled rails.

[thorn bane]

red forest has water?
but just belts for days

[past reef]

train track as usual, you probably want to plan for 2 freight because trip time gonna be long

[wind spade]

lifts?

[past reef]

or lifts if you don't care about aesthetics

[mossy trail]

I do care

[wind spade]

lifts look fine tbh

[past reef]

I ran this train track from red forest down here with electrode scrap and normal solution (because I want to save the quartz to the west for something else)

[cloud comet]

Is the hoverpack a drop-in replacement for the parachute with additional functionality?

[wind spade]

oh finally someone with nice tracks and not 90 degree skybridges

[cloud comet]

Nvm it doesn't open when there's no power

[heavy gust]

i cant tell if this is any good.

[wind spade]

all recipes are "good" if you like them

[heavy gust]

clearly not the response if was looking for, but why am i suprised

i dont think it saves on resources

[wind spade]

so you'd rather have some random person tell you "yes" and then you'd leave thinking it's a generic truth and the reicpe is always good just because that person said so?

[thorn bane]

it saves on stators and rotors but uses ai limiters/highspeed connectors to supplement
so its less iron/steel but more caterium/copper/etc.

[heavy gust]

perhaps someone that has used it can tell if its saving on resources or stuff like that

[past reef]

it's like a quartz boosting motor alternative to rigor, I haven't made ECR yet to compare the resources

[ashen girder]

I use it in my turbo motor and supercomputer factory.

[thorn bane]

i personally like it 🙃

[ashen girder]

No oil and the only coal is for stators and screws.

[heavy gust]

could be good in combination with this? since it uses the rods aswell?

[wind spade]

how could we know that "good" means "saving resources" (and which resources you value how much), and not e.g. "simplifies setup" or "uses less power" or "removes a resource from production chain"?

[thorn bane]

nah man turbo pressure all the way

[heavy gust]

dont have that one

[ashen girder]

You can't unlock turbo pressure until you've got the last milestone of T8

[heavy gust]

response could "its good because ..."
or "its bad because ..."

[wind spade]

but... it's not "bad" or "good"
it's only "good" or "bad" if you care about that property

[heavy gust]

its not like there is a definite asnwers, i just wanted to see some arguments

[wind spade]

and it's only "good" or "bad" for your preferences

[heavy gust]

yes and asking if its good or bad is prompting people to give their view on it

[wind spade]

I gave you my view

[heavy gust]

you kinda said nothing

[wind spade]

I gave you my view on whether the recipe is "good" or "bad"

[heavy gust]

okay you did, but lets be real how do you think did that give me any value

[wind spade]

if you asked "what is this recipe for?" or "what can I gain from this", I'd give you a different answer

[heavy gust]

okay man, but read between the lines. thats clearly what i was looking for

[wind spade]

since like 99% of people asking this question actually believe that there are good and bad recipes, I do not "read between lines" anymore, because most people are dead serious. And I don't want to mislead people calling a recipe "good" or "bad"

[thorn bane]

it also depends on your ECR recipe
with def. its 1 motor = 1 rotor+0.75 stator + 0.5 ai limiter
with connection rod its 1 motor = 1 rotor + 0.5 stator + 0.25 HSC
but ye both are better than 1 motor = 2 rotor + 2 stator

[ashen girder]

Silicon HSCs and circuit boards are nice too.

Shit tons of silica, copper sheets and fused quick wire

[thorn bane]

well plastic ai limiter is pretty good too

[ashen girder]

Not if you're avoiding oil. 😁

[past reef]

you want to move quartz to iron (crystal oscillator) anyways

[thorn bane]

none of this uses quartz?

[potent isle]

my power production drops as soon as i turn my steel factory off, it is connected to the coal plant but not the coal plants main source of power at all. Any things i can do to find the mistakes?

[ashen girder]

Silica..?

[past reef]

I'm thinking of ECR in terms of quartz but anyways either alt works better than base if low iron

[edgy leaf]

most of the time when i ask stuff like that i want to hear other peoples subjective opinions on why they like or dislike a recipe for their playstyle, so that i can deepen my own understanding of how that recipe might be advantagous or disadvantagous in certain situations. saying "is this good?" is a lot easier to say. but yea i get why thatd be frustrating with new players that think some things are just better in all situations than others

[shadow sinew]

are the energy accumulators no longer a tier 5-6 tech?

I remember building them alongside oil last playthrough, but maybe in 1.0. they´ve moved it to after sulfuric acid

[edgy leaf]

power storages are tier 4 if thats what u mean?

[shadow sinew]

ok yeah, used to be tier 3 before 1.0

[noble timber]

They have always been tier 4

[past reef]

random biomass generators?

[wind spade]

I'm very much aware that there are people who know what they are asking. But people reading the chat aren't aware of that. They just see "is recipe X good? yes" and consider it general truth.

(youtubuers with their "10 best recipes you MUST have" don't help that much)

[noble timber]

I hate when people class a recipe as more "efficient" than others as well

[mossy trail]

Oh, me too

[wind spade]

oh yeah the word "efficient" gets thrown around so much that people don't even know what they mean by it

[shadow sinew]

I remember getting them before aluminum, mostly because I quit that playthrough just after setting up aluminum pretty much, never did any acid

[wind spade]

"efficiency" can represent practically anything, so it's basically equal to saying "this recipe is more glurbl than that recipe"

[noble timber]

Aluminium is tier 7

[edgy leaf]

hm, is there any downside to cast screws vs normal screws and normal rodsö

[shadow sinew]

no, all upside, less power, less space, less hustle

[wind spade]

the downside is that you can't use rod recipes (but you specified normal rods, so ...)

[edgy leaf]

unless ur kibitz and want to use more machines :p

[mossy trail]

I really like recipes, that help me build small factories. I also don't mind to use power shells to overclock machines. If it's not consuming x5 more energy Im fine, as long as it saves space.

[thorn bane]

sooooooooooooo
objectively better
more efficient
hides in a corner

[wind spade]

"objectively better" from subjectively picked set of options, yeah

[shadow sinew]

it is weakly dominant technically

because if you only care about resource efficiency (aside from power), it´s the same as normal

[noble timber]

The "best" way to use any alt is to simply evaluate what you have in a given area and use the alt that suits what you have the best (unless you want to move resources around).

[past reef]

some recipes have weird numbers that gets annoying when I'm planning modules too, but not a problem if you run mega style factory

[shadow sinew]

The best recipes are the ones that get rid of screws xd, like steeled frame and stitched plates

[mossy trail]

I was told that I should now overclock, because then power consumption will rise for 6.631%! Even if it saves me twice as much space.

[noble timber]

Not 100% correct but it is a valid case if you do want to elimate screw production

[prisma kraken]

'objectively better by every quantifiable metric'

[wind spade]

within a limited set of options

[prisma kraken]

of course

[past reef]

with 1.0 there's also a sloop friendly metric

[wind spade]

OP specified "default rods", which is where the subjectivity comes into play 🙂

[past reef]

like if you want to manually make some which one takes fewer sloop

[thorn bane]

oh i guess its not sloop firendly since you could quadruple with the extra step

[prisma kraken]

very few recipes in the game actually hold up to that criteria

[snow maple]

there is no reason to use default rods->screws over cast screws, but other ways to produce screws are better

[prisma kraken]

that calculus changes with steel rod

[snow maple]

i know, thats what i said

[wind spade]

there's no "objectively better" recipe
there is practically just one that comes really close, HEF. But one could argue it has very weird numbers and some people prefer to not have that

(also that only applies if you're comparing HEF vs HMF, not taking into account other recipes)

[prisma kraken]

the numbers for HEF got a lot better with the changes to EIP

[snow maple]

it still makes 2.8125 per machine though, the numbers are easier when you have 8 or 16 machines

[thorn bane]

weird numbers is only a problem for people that manually type their math into a calculator like a caveman

[noble timber]

EIP is one of those rare alts that is better with every metric that matters

[thorn bane]

just underclock to 2
ez math

[wind spade]

impossible 😛

[prisma kraken]

yeah, it is just 45/16. deal with it as a fraction and the math isn't horrible, or clock the recipe to 106.66666 to make the numbers square

[thorn bane]

isnt it more machines?

[wind spade]

better than?

[noble timber]

Default

[noble timber]

Yes but less overall space

[wind spade]

so, ignoring other recipes, that's where the subjectivity comes into play 😛

[prisma kraken]

EIP isn't better in every metric, power use is a lot higher

[mossy trail]

I tried it yesterday. Its better as 2.825.

Or you are going to get weird numbers on required parts

[noble timber]

I thought power use was about 15% less?

[thorn bane]

ah yes 2.3438 EIPs
perfectly normal

compared to "2.5"

[noble timber]

If you have molded beam it may not be as good, not sure. However with steel pipe you can also eliminate coal entirely 🤷‍♂️

[prisma kraken]

*iron pipe

[noble timber]

Thanks 🤣

[wind spade]

which brings the question if eliminating coal is something the player values 🤷

[thorn bane]

why though
theres nonthing else you need coal for

[past reef]

iron pipe takes huge amount of iron which can be nondesirable depends on location

[mossy trail]

Logistics

[wind spade]

build near coal, solved

[prisma kraken]

it isn't a huge amt of iron unless you're being boneheaded

[thorn bane]

id rather get 1 coal node than 4 iron nodes

[past reef]

you could be sitting on 2 iron nodes and one is for modular frame one is for rotor+motor you don't want another iron usage

[prisma kraken]

you combine it with iron alloy and it's like on-par with solid steel for making pipe

[noble timber]

Best use case for iron pipe is probably early game when you are in the grassy fields

[short merlin]

it’s probably been asked a lot in here, but what tool is this?

[past reef]

satisfactorytools.com

[prisma kraken]

best use case for iron pipe is where you have more iron than you do coal. I think that is everywhere throughout the course of the game

[thorn bane]

wait is it?

[noble timber]

In other (starting) biomes coal isn't really a limiting factor like in the GF though

[short merlin]

satisfactorytools.com looks different iirc

[thorn bane]

its twice the iron lol

[noble timber]

I really don't like iron alloy

[thorn bane]

it literally takes 4x as much iron as steel
fuck that shit

[digital vapor]

how can you see rails and train on map ?

[noble timber]

However you save coal, so if you are pressed for power before fuel then it is a viable option

[prisma kraken]

you cannot on the in-game map, use SCIM for that

[noble timber]

I am currently using 1600 iron/min on steel pipe because I need all the rest of the coal in GF for trucks and power

[past reef]

upload save on https://satisfactory-calculator.com/en/interactive-map, I build open air so I can see those buildings from top down view

[thorn bane]

wait youre using all 6 coal nodes?

[digital vapor]

i have to inport map or i can draw the travel ?

[prisma kraken]

i don't understand your question

[noble timber]

THe 2 pure nodes to the south are for power, then from the 4 to the north I am using 200 for steel (for beams) and the rest of the coal is for power and trucks

[past reef]

that was the train path on my save, you can plan the travel with realistic map toggle for terrain height

[digital vapor]

i got my answer thanks

[thorn bane]

dayum
i guess i just build smaller early on 🤷

[noble timber]

That's everything I am producing out of GFs

[prisma kraken]

for GF, i use the 4 normal coal in the pit for power and then the 2 pure for steel

[thorn bane]

ye same and 2 pure for steel has always been enough steel for me

[prisma kraken]

after 1.0 with the mk6 belts, you get the same coal off of 4 normal nodes as you do off of 2 pure, so it just is a matter of when you think you'll need more power vs more steel in the course of game progression

[thorn bane]

well by the point you get mk6 belts youre probably not using coal power anymore xd

[prisma kraken]

no reason to delete a 12 gw power plant

[vivid escarp]

Guys why do i get more then dooble that hight with my jetpack if i spam Space and not holding it?

[thorn bane]

i actually set up my first coal power plant further away for that reason in my playthrough
especially with dimensional depots making outposting easier

[prisma kraken]

fuel and nuclear scale a lot bigger and you do end up needing a lot bigger, but keeping your coal plants going isn't harming anything

[thorn bane]

but you upgrade mieners right? so all youre 12gw is only 1 node now

[prisma kraken]

you might decide to reroute their fuel for diamonds in t9, but that's a later™️ problem

yeah, you need the mk3 miner & mk5 belts to fully exploint 12 gw of power from 4 normal coal nodes

if you did it on pure nodes instead, you'd have to wait for mk6 belts

[livid tapir]

why is my power doing this? All my fuel burners are producing perfectly, i dont understand why my power just isnt coming through

i should have 4000 MW

when run in isolation, they produce fine

[prisma kraken]

you have too much drawing power on your grid, disconnect stuff before flipping the breaker

[thorn bane]

anyone know if fuel burners charge batteries?

[livid tapir]

but i should have enough to power it all, is there startup time to certain generators?

[edgy leaf]

did u mean fuel generators or biofuel burners?

[thorn bane]

biofuel burners sorry

[edgy leaf]

the biofuel ones dont charge batteries, the fuel burners do

[prisma kraken]

biofuel burners do not charge batteries

[true junco]

All power plants charge power storages except for the biomass burners.

[wind spade]

no, because batteries are an item
but no, they can't charge power storages

[edgy leaf]

u say u produce 4000 and the max cons is above 4000. i may be wrong about this but i think all machines start taking energy when u start the grid up again, even if they werent running before. i may be totally wrong with that

[thorn bane]

in that case disconnect production and let your coal power charge your batteries for a bit

[livid tapir]

oh shit that totally explains it then, i have a ton of idle factories

[edgy leaf]

im not sure about that, it just feels like it. never tested it or read it anywhere

[prisma kraken]

yes, when you flip a breaker, all machines start up at their max draw

[livid tapir]

fuck i guess its time to overhaul fuel production

[edgy leaf]

yay my intuition was right

[livid tapir]

that is so mega irritating

[prisma kraken]

welcome to satisfactory

[thorn bane]

thats what power storage is for

[edgy leaf]

also i think that its good that theres a penalty for blowing ur grid

"penalty"

[prisma kraken]

it is why we all focus so much on keeping the max consumption line below our max production

[livid tapir]

yea, makes sense

[edgy leaf]

i do it because my max consumption and consumption lines are equal 💪

[livid tapir]

i just assumed if my factories were all idle it would be fine

[thorn bane]

no
thats why i have power storages

[prisma kraken]

ur too good 😉

[edgy leaf]

too crazy. its making me go mad

but i am the queen of autism after all, gotta do my job yk

[prisma kraken]

well, haha, back when you were trying to get the lines exactly even, i knew 😉

i seriously tried b4 you attempted and realized the game isn't coded for that endeavor to be possible

[edgy leaf]

it is possible, im sure of it

well, not permanently fluids get messed up on save load...

[thorn bane]

they fixed that right?

[edgy leaf]

nope

maybe the thing u are talking about got fixed, not the thing im talking about

i emptied my water extractors, the water always got to 0 between cycles. i saved the game.

then i let the game run for 5 minutes, the water still got to 0 between cycles. loaded the save, instant 7 excess water in the extractor

so, loading a game affects machines... somehow. tho i dont mind, ill just ignore small fluctuations after loading the game, they should even out quickly.

[prisma kraken]

i think how the game is optimized to reduce cpu consumption for factories outside of render range causes micro-fluctuations in power due to rounding errors in the transition

[edgy leaf]

i havent had any issues like that yet, even when traveling with hypertubes

whenever i checked the line was straight. i even moused over it to see if htere were fluctuations so small i cant see them, nothing

[prisma kraken]

last i really looked at it was back in update 6, lots of stuff in the code has changed

[edgy leaf]

but loading a save definitely instantly affects machines, or pipes, in some way

[prisma kraken]

yeah, after load, pipes start off in a weird state, i think they start with some fixed amt in them and it can take a bit to stabilize

i really would like to get some analytics my factories

[edgy leaf]

same same

still working on "handcrafting" my way into phase 5/tier 9

i dont haev super computers, fmfs, hmfs, hscs, ails, or anything higher automated

truly peak efficeincy

[prisma kraken]

kind of at the same point, but i'm doing the things in the game that i find fun

been having a lot of fun de-slugging the map

[edgy leaf]

yea i love slughunting

i have 40 somersloops and uhh one sec i have to check scim

[prisma kraken]

pretty good progress:

[edgy leaf]

holy fuck, ur not leaving anything behind

[mighty cloak]

Do batteries have any exclusive uses now that drones can use other fuel?

[prisma kraken]

yeah, i pick a small area and grid it out to hunt

[edgy leaf]

they can be used to make super computers

[prisma kraken]

there used in the super computer alt

[edgy leaf]

i have collected 1476 shards worth of slugs

[livid tapir]

if i hook up a bunch of power storage, charge it, and reconnect to my main grid, do yall think that'll work to overcome the massive power deficit im playing in

[prisma kraken]

i'm around 2500 🙂

[thorn bane]

just automate the shards

[prisma kraken]

it may be closer to 2700, idk

[edgy leaf]

however my collection is been very haphazardly. im not remotely as thorough as you

[prisma kraken]

really i'm clearing the map as an excuse to explore

[thorn bane]

yes
well if youre sure they are actually idle

[edgy leaf]

i need like 2340 shards for my oil factory so im "cheating" my way to tier 9 so i can automate them.

[livid tapir]

yeah my normal consumption is about 2k when my production is actually functional

[edgy leaf]

all done by filling a single slooped assembler by hand lmao

[thorn bane]

also some people build "backup batteries" for that, that you can connect in case of a woopsy but im personally not a big fan

[wind spade]

honestly just use priority power switch

[edgy leaf]

i like the idea of having lots of power storages in case i totally fuck up my production

[wind spade]

priority power switches help with that

[prisma kraken]

i build them in the base of my power towers, works pretty good

[edgy leaf]

they help but if my whole power production system somehow gets clogged...

i also like the idea of having a battery bank at each factory that can supply that factory for one hour. that way if my grid ever isnt PERFECTLY flat i can isolate the factories one after the other to locate the issue

binary search ftw

[thorn bane]

wait do you not have a backup grid of all the weird stuff like gysers?

[potent isle]

can i setup a train system as input for factories? like steel gets made and brought to the motor factory and another train collects motors from it

[edgy leaf]

i do

[potent isle]

my only concern is flow

[edgy leaf]

yes. thats literally what they're for

[prisma kraken]

storage grows with my expansion

[edgy leaf]

smart !

i should place some batteries in my train towers... 🤔

[past reef]

yeah you can, be mindful of travel time and resource extraction speed

[potent isle]

im unsure if its fast enough for the supply of the factories, like i want the train to both keep some steel for my central storage and take some for the factory

[edgy leaf]

god i love having an excuse to post this
desmos.com/calculator/djzytmsw4h u can utilize this formula to calculate it

[prisma kraken]

central storage should be the last stop then

[livid tapir]

thaws what i do, i do not recommend it. but thats just my personal preference, i think its very tedious and requires a vastly higher amount of effort than just using belts

[past reef]

trains does not split freight so if you want to supply 2 separate factories you have to balance it out before loading train

[wind spade]

*power storages

[thorn bane]

what is this?

[edgy leaf]

they do tho, u can just manifold it

desmos is a graphing calculator website. i cant post the real link because its not on the whitelist

[thorn bane]

i know that xd
whats that graph

[prisma kraken]

yeah, there is such a thing as a trainifold

[livid tapir]

i assume its the train throughput formula?

[edgy leaf]

the y axis shows throughput, the x axis shows round trip time

[prisma kraken]

it takes forever to actually fill the buffers, but once filled, it works just like belts with overflowing production

[edgy leaf]

C is belt speed, S is stack size and R can be ignored

[thorn bane]

ey i made R

[edgy leaf]

lets say ur train arrives every 600 seconds, u are transporting items iwth a stack size of 500 and have a beltspeed of 780

just check the graph at 600 and it tells u the throughput u have available.

[potent isle]

Its my 1st year in college please explain the variables

[past reef]

I just check if I can fill the platform during the RTT if yes put another freight

[thorn bane]

#math-and-meta message wait its this?

[edgy leaf]

yea, i made the math for that

[prisma kraken]

tl;dr if the train's 32 slot capacity holds more than you produce for the duration of a round trip, you're good, less and the math gets funny

[thorn bane]

thats my math
ah interesting to see a graph of it

[past reef]

as long as you have a double belt ISC on both input and output to buffer for the loading animation (30s is likely to more than the buffer of miners can hold)

[edgy leaf]

oh, i didnt see that i thought u were quoting the wiki

oh i just saw the date

yep its the same results

i thought it wasnt really known before because the wiki said something else

[thorn bane]

"i was there 3000 years ago"
#math-and-meta message

[edgy leaf]

woaah. where were u when i argued with people here about trains!

[potent isle]

so is this correct for steel? (dont see where i can edit the time)

mk3 belts

[edgy leaf]

the time is the x axis

how much steel do u want to transport?

[prisma kraken]

idk, i find that math incredibly difficult to reason about - it is correct, its just not how i think about the problem

[potent isle]

don't need more than 270/min

[prisma kraken]

what's your round trip time?

[potent isle]

have not calculated but lets assume 180 seconds

[prisma kraken]

so 3 minutes, that means if you're making 270/min steel pipe for transport, you'll be transporting 810 every 3 minutes, stack size is 200, so that's ~4 stacks of pipe, that's less than the train's 32 slot capacity by a healthy margin, so no problemo

^^^how i do train math

[potent isle]

got it so if i dont surpass the 32 stack limit its simple

and is the animation accounted for?

[prisma kraken]

it isn't a factor, that only comes into play in transfering in & out of the train station. the transfer time is accounted for in my calculation as part of the gestalt round trip time

it is a 'concurrent but decoupled process'

[thorn bane]

if it takes your train 3min to do a roundtrip and it holds 6400 then thats probably fine for 3 * 270 = 810

[prisma kraken]

where things get sticky is that trains for 500-stack items often have problems with too much being loaded in the train station to transfer it out on two mkX belts before the next train arrives, Laura's math takes all of that into consideration

[thorn bane]

are you guys using "wait until full" or not?

[prisma kraken]

these are the weird things you run into in the late game when the numbers are a lot higher and you do then have to do more complicated calculations

[vivid escarp]

Guys my game says, this thing procudes 900m³/min but i only got 2x150 % 1x 300 and 3x 75 is only 825 in my world where are the missong 75?

[thorn bane]

check the left under the foundation

[past reef]

a well should have 7 extractor you might have missed some underneath

[prisma kraken]

that's the new oil well, i haven't used it yet, but sounds like you're missing an output on an impure node

[vivid escarp]

are they every time connected with this Stone Strings

[potent isle]

even in late game the max you can go is 1200/min right? so unless the stations are 5+minutes away this works

[past reef]

yeah can do a quickrescan in case

[vivid escarp]

Quickscan says i got all 6

[prisma kraken]

yeah, the math is generally as simple as i described, but ores at 1200/min and 50-stack items like mod frames, you kind of need to be careful and double-check your assumptions

*ingots too

[prisma kraken]

i think you have an extraction point burried under your refineries 😦

[ashen girder]

Different wells have different numbers of nodes I think.

The extractor itself shows you whether you have them all capped.

[past reef]

oh yeah I just checked interactive map, I only saw a 7 nitrogen well on the northwest

[prisma kraken]

yeah, there's a little row of dots that tell you how many extraction points the well has and whether you've built a tap on each

[past reef]

check the UI of the pressurizer it can say how many it gives

[vivid escarp]

900

[prisma kraken]

think that's the oil well on the gold coast

[ashen girder]

Yeah, mine has 10. 😂

The orange circles are the nodes.

[prisma kraken]

that's the nitro god well, lol

[ashen girder]

Yuuup.

[past reef]

hm that'd have 2x75 and 3x150 and 1x300

[ashen girder]

Y'all made the nuke hog near there kill me. 🤣

[prisma kraken]

say hi when you get ur stuff back 🙂

[ashen girder]

I just reloaded since I'd just loaded the game.

[vivid escarp]

I realoaded the game, now half of them only make 30

i go with it and say its a ui bug

For some reason Mk5 only transports in german 480 items like Mk4

[past reef]

30 pm is for 100% overclock think you'd need to power it for the number to update

[unreal hearth]

Is there a good video on setting up the logistics of drones?

[edgy leaf]

curious how well ur system works, what would ur math say to transporting 800 items per minute with a round trip time of 120 seconds and a belt speed of 480?

[thorn bane]

it needs to do 1 cycle to update and it probably is full so it wont

[unreal hearth]

Everything I read about trains make them sound horrifically tedious and time consuming, and drones seem to be better

[vivid escarp]

Just use very long belts

[past reef]

drones can't move high throughput stuff like quartz/silica/coke/water for most aluminum setup

[unreal hearth]

But the spaghetti 😭

[past reef]

belts are eyesores I try my best not to use it after 100m

you're trading initial 300-400MW of power for easier expansion later on

[ashen girder]

That's just a typo. They transport 780.

[verbal lake]

they aren't horrifically tedious and time consuming, people just overcomplicate things

[prisma kraken]

it still says no problem (which there isn't with the trains & their capacity) - 800 is less than the theoretical belt speed of 960. the fact that the train lockout is ~30 seconds, or 400 items @800/min means that i'd need mk5 belts coming out of the stations

[unreal hearth]

I was considering making a central base in the plains and keeping satellite bases to make parts and then droning them in to make space elevator parts. I have a heavy modular frame setup, a motor setup, a coomputer setup, etc. So I was going to drone in the items to a central location and maybe just build one train line for aluminum production.

[white bloom]

@edgy leaf Hey, I just played around with your desmos graph a bit, very cool! Did you write down an explanation for how these two equations come about, and if yes, would you mind linking it? Very curious.

[past reef]

I like separate grid train system so I can actually remotely turn off the entire logistics of a production line so my train setups are really simple

[past reef]

if you're transporting HMF drone is much better than train

but for computers you'd have to ship in a bunch of copper and/or caterium drones can't match those throughput

[prisma kraken]

i'm not saying that your way of thinking about it all is wrong, it just isn't how i look at the problem, for me approaching it as a series of things that i can reason about with napkin math makes more sense

[ashen girder]

I need to set up drones.

Nope. My RCUs belong to nuclear pasta for the moment. 🤣

[reef turtle]

All right. So as I was talking about last night, here's the ratio calculator I'm working on. Consider it to be an in alpha state: It still has bugs, is missing features, and the performance isn't yet where I want it to be. But I used it to play the game, and perhaps people will find it useful, even in its incomplete state: https://kirkmcdonald.github.io/satisfactory-calculator/calc.html

[prisma kraken]

(incidentally, just due to a lot of building, i also know that for 900 plastic or rubber/min via train, you really want to have mk5 belts for it b/c the round trip time becomes a thing if you are on mk4 tech)

[wind spade]

nice, I see you've found a way to make loops work 🙂

[edgy leaf]

it wouldn't work though

[reef turtle]

I mean, my Factorio calculator has handled them for literal years, and this is essentially the next version of that.

[past reef]

safest way to deal with station lockout is to empty output faster than train loading/unloading time which normally means double max level belt into ISC on freight platform

[prisma kraken]

the only issue is that you can't transfer 1600 items out of a train with 30s down time every two minutes on mk4 belts

[past reef]

and 2x480 pm freight output need like 5 minute to empty out so short train would have problem

[reef turtle]

You can always add more wagons.

[prisma kraken]

at 960/min, you need more than 2 minutes to overcome the 30s lockout

its also why for recycled rubber & plastic i transfer 450/min per car 😉

[wind spade]

yeah fair. Just wasn't available for your SF calculator for a long time

[edgy leaf]

yea, 800 with 480 belts at 500 stack size and 120 second round trip time wouldn't work, but you need to consider reload time for that. I prefer just using my rust script for this

[prisma kraken]

hey greeny, since you are around, with the changes to recipes in 1.0, does your calculator (which i assume still uses linear programming) still provide the optimal solution, or does it now sometimes converge and get stuck on local minima/maxima?

[prisma kraken]

or you could just 'keep train throughput under belt speed' and not think about it 🙂

[cloud comet]

Do I need anything other than bauxite for aluminium? I'm thinking of gathering the outputs of 5 different mines in a single spot and couldn't decide on where to put it

[prisma kraken]

coal or coke and water

[reef turtle]

I can speak to my own LP solver and say that, because it uses the base resources as its objective function, there should be no local extremes to get caught on.

[wind spade]

did you find any weird behavior that would suggest the local min/max? because afaik the optimisation algorithm doesn't do that

[past reef]

water, copper (if you need sheets), and quartz (if not running sloppy/instant)

[prisma kraken]

to make alclad sheets or casings, you also need copper

[past reef]

oh coke too if electrode scrap

[wind spade]

right, weren't you the one who helped me with LP the first time? 😄

[cloud comet]

So something like this?

[prisma kraken]

idk, i haven't played with it enough with enough of the game's late game to really have a handle on it yet

[cloud comet]

And the nearest copper is like 1km away

[reef turtle]

The one concern is if you configure a selection of recipes that leads to an infeasible solution. I still have some work to do with detecting that, but it's still possible to put the calculator into a state where it has to give up. (I need to improve the error reporting in that case, too.)

[prisma kraken]

yeah, copper is designed to be far away from bauxite to make you solve logistics problems

[thorn bane]

not her but how i came up with this
left (B) is limited by 2 output belts
for example if you put R to 0 then its just 2x output belt
but the loading is blocked for 27.08 so you need to adjust the 2x throughput by (X-27.08)/X
for example with 3min trip time its only unloading 91% of the time
right (T) is limited by the train traveling
for example a train taking 10 min to deliver 6400 items can at most provide 640/min
the train has 32 stacks of items so its throughput is items/min = (32 slots)/(roundtrip time) = 32S/(X/60)

[wind spade]

the solver should find the optimal solution. There's always a possibility of some bug in my code which generates the LP problem, but I haven't had any reports on wrong math yet. (most reports are either user error or weird calculator preference due to the weighting)

[past reef]

when I scout out place for aluminum on the map I always need at least a train line

[prisma kraken]

i was just curious b/c it seems like the recipe changes (specifically with transmutation) makes the problem of finding optimal a lot more difficult

[edgy leaf]

btw greeny, how difficult is it to run ur calculator locally? would it improve performance or is that an issue of my browser?

[reef turtle]

This mostly works itself out, due to SAM being quite rare, and thus heavily weighted against.

[cloud comet]

Perhaps I should give trains a go with aluminium

[white bloom]

thanks! I found the write up https://satisfactory.wiki.gg/wiki/Tutorial:Train_throughput a few minutes ago and followed along. yeah that makes sense

[past reef]

can use one train line for both bauxite and quartz and copper but that'd be cutting close to 5 minute which would make the train too big

[prisma kraken]

i have noticed that the weighting of ores does seem a little whacky

[wind spade]

nah, it's practically the same. If you ignore sloops, there's no new mechanic and it's all just recipes converting one item to another

loops and conversions were already in the previous game versions, so nothing new really

[thorn bane]

pretty sure the problem is still linear
and that shouldnt get stuck on local maxima right?
it just got increased by a few dimensions

[reef turtle]

Exactly.

[prisma kraken]

perhaps, i was asking, not asserting 🙂

[wind spade]

yeah, just the 250 constraints and 200 inequalities got increased to more, but it's still a linear problem

and yeah, it does prioritise things like quartz or caterium to be made out of SAM afaik, but I don't really want to deal with it and you can disable SAM or converter if you don't want that 😄

[prisma kraken]

if i might request a small ui change, would it be possible on the recipe selection screen to have a 'disable all transmutaion recipes' button?

[thorn bane]

oh i actually like YAFKs way of specifying what tier youre on and it disables all the recipes you cant have
so if you say im in Tier 4 then it cant use converter stuff

[white bloom]

the only nonlinear aspects to the optimization problem are clocking and power augmenters. fortunately, both are quite easily bandaid solved in practice

[prisma kraken]

....kind of a pain to hunt them out of the list by hand

[past reef]

a default of no SAM might be nice, I'm always in the recipe screen to force an alt and check clock number so idm disabling reanimated SAM

[reef turtle]

My calculator has the conversion recipes disabled by default, just as a side effect of how it sets up alt recipes by default. I may change this. It's also easy to reconfigure the relative value of SAM, which is already the second-most rare resource by default:

[eager solar]

Assuming I want to make to most items and power with my oil, what are the interesting alts?

[thorn bane]

im sure there are lots of ways to solve it
༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ greeny take my energy ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ

[white bloom]

clocking of extractors happens to pretty much always come down to the maximum clock speed being optimal, so you're fine going with whatever the maximum amounts of any resource you can get in 1.0

[prisma kraken]

i guess you can select that by unchecking sam as a resource

[past reef]

HOR diluted (packaged) fuel for a bunch of fuel, recycled plastic/rubber for more plastic/rubber after any diluted fuel

[thorn bane]

recycled rubber/plastic
heavy oil residue
diluted fuel
turbo blend fuel

[reef turtle]

Overclocking's nonlinear aspect is also just related to power consumption, and isn't even really part of what the LP solver deals with.

[glossy schooner]

nitro rocket fuel is also a consideration

[prisma kraken]

and smokeless powder for the toys 🙂

[white bloom]

optimal number and boost state of power augmenters can be solved by search. You can't build that many of them, so even brute force search works

[glossy schooner]

doesn't turbo blend technically consume more oil per turbofuel?

[past reef]

smokeless powder has no alt?

[prisma kraken]

correct

[white bloom]

yes, greeny's one doesn't bother with that. others (like mine) do

[thorn bane]

yes but less sulfur

[past reef]

saves more sulfur though you get less sulfur on map

[prisma kraken]

more oil. less sulfur

[eager solar]

I'm not at that phase yet so It will have to suffice, unless I can unlock it early?

[thorn bane]

oooh no

[glossy schooner]

they said oil so i'm wasn't sure if sulfur was considered

[past reef]

rocket fuel needs nitric acid at tier 8?

[glossy schooner]

nitro rocket only needs the gas

[thorn bane]

ye nitro is tier 8 and comes after turbofuel

[glossy schooner]

but yes you need particle enrichment for the base rocket fuel recipe

[eager solar]

I'm open to interesting alts if you have any to suggest

[prisma kraken]

yeah nitro rocket is simpler to build, but yields a lot less power

[glossy schooner]

the ones zyranex suggested are the goats

[eager solar]

aight, thanks

[white bloom]

and finally overslooping can be dealt with linearly again by just adding pseudo recipes for any amount of sloops in the responsible building for the actual recipe. A clean solution to this uses a mixed-integer LP because you can't have fractional sloops and it's not trivial as with number of buildings.

and setting one new constraint, namely the sum of the sloops used being no more than the available amount

[edgy leaf]

its limited by train capacity (blue line) which is jsut
(slots*stacksize)/roundtriptime

its also limited by belt speed and reload time. during the reload animation (27.08

[thorn bane]

i was wondering about that are mixed integer LP solvers actually a thing?
that sounds really complicated to calculate

[white bloom]

thanks, ZyRaNex already explained ^^

[edgy leaf]

ah alright

[main thicket]

how much uranium waste does 1 fully overclocked nuclear plant produce per minute?

[edgy leaf]

i accidentally pressed enter before i was done but guess i wont fully explain it then

[edgy leaf]

if ur curious, here is some rust code i use to calculate my own trains:

    fn main() {
    let desired_throughput: f64 = 600./60.;
    let roundtrip_time: f64 = 642.4646153;
    let stack_size: f64 = 75.;
    let beltspeed: f64 = 600./60.;
    let train_inventory_size: f64 = 32.;
    let reload_time: f64 = 27.08;

    // desired throughput is known
    let upper_bound: f64 = stack_size * train_inventory_size / desired_throughput;
    let lower_bound: f64 = 1. / ((1. - desired_throughput / (beltspeed * 2.)) / reload_time);

    // roundtrip time is known
    let reload_limit: f64 = ((roundtrip_time - reload_time) * beltspeed * 2.)/roundtrip_time;
    let time_limit: f64 = (stack_size * train_inventory_size) / roundtrip_time;

    // nothing is known
    let optimal_throughput: f64 = ((stack_size * train_inventory_size) + (reload_time*beltspeed*2.))/ (beltspeed*2.);
    let optimal_reload_limit: f64 = ((optimal_throughput - reload_time) * beltspeed * 2.)/optimal_throughput;
    let optimal_time_limit: f64 = (stack_size * train_inventory_size) / optimal_throughput;
    println!("Data if throughput is known");
    println!("Upper bound: {}", upper_bound);
    println!("Lower bound: {}", lower_bound);
    println!("Midpoint: {}", (upper_bound + lower_bound) / 2.);
    println!("Buffer: {}", (upper_bound - lower_bound) / 2.);
    println!("");
    println!("Data if roundtrip time is known");
    println!("Reload limit: {}", reload_limit*60.);
    println!("Time limit: {}", time_limit*60.);
    println!("");
    println!("Optimal round trip time and throughput for a given set of parameters");
    println!("Optimal time: {}", optimal_throughput);
    println!("Optimal reload limit: {}", optimal_reload_limit*60.);
    println!("Optimal time limit: {}", optimal_time_limit*60.);
}

its just some simple multiplication and division that does the stuff for me

[glossy schooner]

is this assembly level or some shit

[edgy leaf]

nah its just rust 😭

i just use it as a calculator lol

[glossy schooner]

never used rust

[white bloom]

they exist. performance depends wildly on the problem. I haven't migrated my optimizer to use the MILP yet it will be a hassle due to different syntax despite both functions in scipy.optimize.
If the solver happens to struggle with getting lobbed 800 integer variables straight away, I plan on introducing an interative procedure where it solves with fractional variables, and the selected nonzero sloop variables getting restricted to integer variables on the next round. But suspect the solver will handle it just fine

[glossy schooner]

chat should i make a computer/electronics factory or a fmf factory

kinda want mk3 miners but my lack of computers is becoming a real problem

[white bloom]

other problems even with much fewer integer variables can have extremely long solution times because you can model many NP-hard problems as IPs

[white bloom]

confused, does this do anything that the two formulas in desmos can not?

[edgy leaf]

well, it can just spit out the number of how much buffer you have

like, lets say i want to transport 2000 plastic per minute

[white bloom]

to find optimal extraction energies / clock speeds, an exact way is to retrieve the shadow prices of the raw materials from the LP by sensitivity analysis, then solve the nonlinear powerformula for the miner/extractor/pressurizer with algebra to obtain the clock speed at which it achieves the same marginal price. use these as updated constraints for the LP until you find a fixed point where the shadow price from both sides matches up

[edgy leaf]

it will tell me that i would have 14.76 seconds of buffer on each side if i were to try to achieve that (with 1200 belts)

[white bloom]

but as I said earlier in 1.0 it's simply everything to the max. you can use it to fine-tune underclocked water well pressurizers though, just for the fun of it 😉

[glossy schooner]

we are reaching levels of math and meta not thought possible

[edgy leaf]

its really quite simple

if i want to transport 2000 plastic per minute with mk6 belts, my round trip time needs to be between 192 and 162.48 seconds. if it takes longer or is shorter than i will not achieve my throughput needs

this gives me a buffer of 14.76 seconds in each direction if i calibrate my train to that round trip time

so if my train is more than 14.76 seconds late or early i will have insufficent throughput

if im fine transporting only 1800 plastic per minute in each freight care then i would have a buffer of 52 seconds in each direction, id need to calibrate my round trip time to 160 seconds

[safe heron]

why would shorter be a problem?

[edgy leaf]

because the train station can not take items while it is loading a train (27.08 seconds). that means if a train arrives ever 54.16 seconds you will only achieve half the maximum throughput

[white bloom]

I miss classical forums. Two interesting topics being discussed at the very same time in the very same channel, completely interleaved, a nightmare to follow either along and will be impossible to find again for anyone searching it by tomorrow's time. Discord is... not a great platform.
Finally adds threads but you can't pull a discussion that has evolved into a thread, only start one from a single message. By the time you realize a discussion should have been a thread, can't make it one anymore.

[thorn bane]

wait youre not accounting for just adding more trains to increase throughput?
having 2x the trains doubles the throughput if youre limited by that and not unloading speed

[edgy leaf]

adding more trains is the same exact thing as decreasing round trip time

*decreasing

im pretty sure at least, i havent looked that deeply into it

[white bloom]

what about having multiple freight cars on the same train? I guess that also doubles the belt speed I suppose since you're effectively loading/unloading 4 belts simultaneously rather than 2 with 2 stations, right?

[edgy leaf]

thats just a direct 2x, no need to do any extra math on that one

[white bloom]

multiple trains, hmm, it also increases the blocking time

[edgy leaf]

adding more trains to the same station is the same as decreasing round trip time im pretty sure

[errant bane]

hello there i'm on my first run ever (what a game) and i may need pipeline checkup.

The situation is :

• i want to build 16 charcoal plant
• i have enough charcoal input (240)
• i got pipelines mk2
• i need 720m² of water

Is it correct to :

• connect the 600m² pipeline from one side with 4,5 water pump
• connect a 300m² pipeline on the other with 1,5 water pump

Should i expect this behavior like in the screen ?

[thorn bane]

i just think of it like this
i have my list of max throughputs and see that
2052.6 for 200 stack
this is >2000 so it works
i then build the train and see if it gets the throughput desired
if it doesnt then i just plop down a second train
i could check this if i knew the roundtrip time but im too lazy to measure that

[edgy leaf]

what do u mean with a second train

a second train on the same line, or a second freight platform/second train station?

[thorn bane]

second train on the same line

[edgy leaf]

that is the exact same thing as halving the round trip time, and thus could hurt your maximum throughput

[wind spade]

can't just disable the converter?

[edgy leaf]

see, halving the round trip time increases the train capacity limit from 32/m to 64/m (i chose a round trip time of 12000 seconds to make it more obvious)

however with two trains, a train arrives twice as often, which is the same as just half the round trip time

[wind spade]

also, can just disable machines you don't want to use 🙂

[glossy schooner]

this will feed all the plants if that's what you're asking

heck you can cut out the pipe between the yellow and green circuits if you really want to

[errant bane]

i'm limited by the 600m² pipemk2 so i'm forced to split them that why i ask if i'm not wrong ^^

[thorn bane]

its not 2x though with wait until full since the train will only arrive once the station is empty

[edgy leaf]

im not sure what u mean

[white bloom]

intuitively that makes sense

[thorn bane]

you could add 10 trains and they would just wait until you need the resources

[white bloom]

do trains wait until they're fully loaded?

[edgy leaf]

these are the results with a train arriving every 200 seconds:

Reload limit: 2075.04
Train Capacity limit: 4800

if you add a second train its as if a train comes every 100 seconds, these are the results in that case:

Reload limit: 1750.0800000000002
Train Capacity limit: 9600

with one train you have a max throughput of 2075, with two its only 1750.

[thorn bane]

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/satisfactory_gamepedia_en/images/3/39/Pipeline_Manual.pdf
yes see

[edgy leaf]

now that u mention it, could u achieve maximum throughput if u set hte train to wait until fully loaded? i never erally considered that...

[white bloom]

oh, it actually isn't generally the same, only (I think) when the trains phase-shift is exactly half a round trip. suppose one always closely follows the other. Then the second one gets to load almost no resources

didn't know you could configure them in multiple ways. never used trains much really

[ashen girder]

Use this link instead: https://satisfactory.wiki.gg/images/3/39/Pipeline_Manual.pdf

That one's from Fandom.

[errant bane]

ok so i could also do 4 pump / 2 pump and it will work

[thorn bane]

no a train is not coming every 100s its coming every time its full which is 6400/1200

basically ye it totally eliminates the roundtrip constriction

i havent tested it too much with larger networks and varying roundtrip times due to signals but it definitely works on a 1 resource only track

[stark iris]

How are you guys handling recycling Dark Matter Residue? The liquid tricks don’t work.

[thorn bane]

turn into crystal and overflow sink

[white bloom]

@thorn bane how does configuring to wait until full work? I don't see that mentioned anywhere on the wiki articles on train station or freight platform. you mean to set a manual wait timer for the station for the individual train that you calculate so it matches exactly when the freight platform is full? does it load/unload at the beginning or end of the wait time?

[stark iris]

I don’t have the sam to waste

[thorn bane]

i havent checked in a while so they might have changed it but it used to look like this
#math-and-meta message

[rotund ingot]

pipeline web to collect the oil in the spire coast? or fluid train? Im guessing the train probably isnt worth the hassle?

[thorn bane]

get the als recipe for crystals, it doesnt use sam

[white bloom]

--> Alt: Dark Matter Trap --> Ballistic Warp Drives, Superposition Oscillators, Singularity Cells

[thorn bane]

Dark Matter Crystallization

[stark iris]

I think that’s the same recipes I’m using

[thorn bane]

once its in solid form you can do the usual overflow sink and priority merge from recycled stuff

[stark iris]

I’m doing Time Crystals into Dark Matter Trap and Superposition Oscillators with some Dark Matter Residue input

[white bloom]

they should really add smart mergers. building these big bulky priority merger arrays feels awfully roundabout for what simple purpose they serve

[stark iris]

But the recycling will fail with gas properties

[thorn bane]

true but most of the time you can get away with 1:8 or 1:16

[reef turtle]

I'm using a VIP junction with it just fine.

[thorn bane]

just build a particle accelerator after each encoder and directly insert the dark matter residue
dealing with it in solid form is 10x easier than in liquid form

[stark iris]

VIP works with gases?

[white bloom]

right, just found a picture showing the options: https://satisfactory.wiki.gg/wiki/Electric_Locomotive#/media/File:Train_Station_UI_3.png

[stark iris]

It doesn’t even work with liquids

[thorn bane]

ye my thoughts exactly xD

[stark iris]

Even the guy who wrote the pipe manual said VIP doesn’t work for recycling after it was tested. People are using unpowered pumps with buffers or splitting out production over VIP

I’ll try it with gases

[reef turtle]

Hmm. Here, give me a moment and I can load up my save and get some screenshots.

But it does seem to be working for me.

[errant bane]

ty for the guide it's so useful

[white bloom]

@thorn bane @edgy leaf So... is there ever a case where you would achieve a higher throughput by NOT waiting until freight wagon is fully loaded?
Because if not, we should base our train throughput math on waiting for full load behavior instead, not the partial filling up the formulae assume right now.

[thorn bane]

its the same formula though
the roundtrip time part is just obsolete

[reef turtle]

Waiting until a train is full will minimize load/unload time, and I don't like that it isn't the default.

[stark iris]

Here is a video testing it. He made a follow-up video explaining that the pipe manual author didn't know why VIP works (or doesn't work) and suggests using a different method. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwO-F82sYE4&t=904s

If it works for gases, that would be great

[thorn bane]

wait does wait until unload actually work now? when i did it it still unloaded and left with a half full inventory
but ye the wait until full part just shifts over to unloading eventually anyway

[stark iris]

I get super mixed results using VIP with liquids.

[thorn bane]

my result and from what ive seen on discord is that its not reliable

[reef turtle]

There are two parts to the departure condition: Whether to wait until fully loaded/unloaded, and an "and/or" condition on a length of time.

[stark iris]

I get perfect 100% reliability from the pump and buffer method

but not with gases

[reef turtle]

You have to change that "and/or" condition from "or" to "and", otherwise it just hits the X number of seconds and leaves.

[wind spade]

buffers in general are not recommended

[stark iris]

I know the limitation with the buffer, if it fills, it stops working. But it never fills in the worst case scenario if you have enough outside buffer to machine buffer ratio

The non-powered pump and a buffer handles it well

Sometimes I split out production to different machines too, but in the case with Dark Matter Traps, I am Slooping it for my case. I can't afford to use more machines.

[thorn bane]

easy fix just make power shards, thy are sam positive xd

[ashen girder]

Yeah, pretty sure VIP doesn't work anymore as of 1.0.

[prisma kraken]

sometimes you want it there for the t9 recipes but not for transmutation

[reef turtle]

I am also using VIP for the water situation with aluminum processing, and it appears to be working.

[wind spade]

I've seen people say it works, so who knows

[reef turtle]

Since that stuff hasn't backed up in a whole lotta hours.

[stark iris]

I'll have to reduce my expectations I guess. I don't have the resources to make shards

[thorn bane]

ye ive stopped trusting the VIP even for alu
dealing with it in solid form is just always more reliable

[prisma kraken]

i'm not sure it ever really worked except by coincidence

[stark iris]

I think a lot of players are going to get frustrated with Dark Matter Residue recycling once they get to that point.

[ashen girder]

I've never needed the VIP for Aluminum. 🤷‍♂️

[thorn bane]

really?
it seemed kinda underwhelming to me
even easier than alu if you just sink the crystals

[wind spade]

fair, but the problem is "how to define a converter recipe automatically", because I'm not a big fan of hardcoding things

[ashen girder]

And you can just sink the packaged water or wet concrete.

[thorn bane]

like you sead search fo (***)

[thorn bane]

but thats an extra step you need to think about
for dark matter residue its the intended path

[wind spade]

I meant from code point of view, in case we want "disable converting"

[stark iris]

Sinking water with wet concrete is so silly when recycling it is incredibly easy and reliable

[wind spade]

and search for (xx) brings more than just converter recipes

[prisma kraken]

i'm just asking for a button in the recipe selection next to select all, select all alts: 'disable converter ore transmutation'

[thorn bane]

wait it does? i thought that regex would just work

[stark iris]

Sinking Dark Matter Residue is going to be such a waste of valuable resources

[reef turtle]

Converter recipes ought to be largely removed from consideration automatically as long as SAM is considered sufficiently rare.

[edgy leaf]

you#d already have to hardcode the button, im not sure if theres an automatic way to define convertor recipes

[reef turtle]

Biomass recipes should also match that.

[wind spade]

exactly, and how to define the "converter" recipe in code

[tame birch]

How to delete whole placed blueprint?

[stark iris]

greeny, I just have a checkbox defaulted to off for raw resource converter recipes

[edgy leaf]

changed build mode, just like with other things

[prisma kraken]

idk, quick and dirty javascript 'unselect these checkboxes'?

[thorn bane]

ooh youre right
but like
how bad is disabling those xd

[tame birch]

ty