math-and-meta

[fringe pawn]

All the alts for wire are some of the best balance in the game IMO

[magic island]

you have a gamut from "common resource, less efficient" to "blazingly efficient, rare resource". it's cool

[median heath]

"rare" as defined by?

[plain rivet]

the center will be bright red and still cool/warm.

[torn quarry]

like, beacons are only used in like 2 alt repicies

and it doesn't seem that much better than teh base recipe

and charcoal is charcoal

iron wire is aight i guess

like, i actually might use it just to not need copper

then again, caterium wire is just better for getting copper wire without copper

[wind spade]

argumentation 101

[vapid gorge]

because you have extra caterium and don't have the spare iron or copper? because you need to make your wire production extra compact? there's lots of reasons to use all the alts. Just becaues you haven't thought about them doesn't mean they are bad, just means you aren't being creastive

[torn quarry]

do you want me to ssay you can't automate wood

[wind spade]

do you want me to say that you can use it for sorting out stuff from personal storage

[torn quarry]

?

[wind spade]

container -> drop all things you don't want in inventory -> goes into sorter -> things get processed as needed -> storage -> overflow to sink

[torn quarry]

i prefer container -> drop all thing you dont want in your inventory -> throw away some of it later or something personally

[wind spade]

sure, but then you're ditching the recipe because it doesn't fit into your personal playstyle, not because it's bad in general

which is my point - all recipes have a use, whether or not you like that use is up to you

some people like compact builds and prefer bolted plates, some like to save resources and prefer stitched plates

in the same spirit, some people like the option of converting wood to coal

[vapid gorge]

like the quickwire stator is one of the more niche recipes, but I wound up using it in a plan where it was perfect.
Niche because it's benefit is less steel per stator - which is generally never a large scale concern

but squeezing out that extra steel in the set up was great

[fringe pawn]

Charcoal is for people who like coal power plants, but want to keep using the chainsaw.

[magic island]

they just need to add a recipe to make rubber via plant latex

combine that with fabric and charcoal/biocoal, and bam, gas filters out of a miscellaneous biomass bin

[fringe pawn]

Eh, screw it, I think I can squeeze out another gold cup before the 10th. Gotta get sharp.

[high bear]

*1

they are a deprecated item

[open patrol]

Iron wire my beloved.

You can make stitched plates. And cable line early game with just plain iron and save your early copper for something like pipes as you work your way up to coal

[wet night]

Idk why but my pipes just don’t take enough oil they both have a mk.2 pipe with 600 oil per min splitting in two them but they only take 50 per min

[wind spade]

are they full?
do you have enough headlift?

[wet night]

Yeah

I have a pump on the bottom

[wind spade]

does the headlift reach?

[wet night]

I hope you can see it

[torn quarry]

fair enough

[main junco]

I have 720 Coal & Iron per minute. how many motors should i aim to produce?

[median heath]

As many as you, personally, feel like.

[oblique hollow]

any number is fine. You can expand later once you have some actual usage for them

[wind spade]

how many do you need?

[high bear]

as many as you need/want

[main junco]

no idea thats why im asking

i have all of crater lakes to build so ill start with 10/min

[median heath]

How would anyone who is not you know what you, personally, need?

[wind spade]

then don't make any until you know how much you need

[main junco]

because they probably have more experience in the game idk bro

[median heath]

That is not at all how Satisfactory works.

[wind spade]

everyone plays differently tho

[median heath]

It's a sandbox.

Your question is the equivalent of someone in Minecraft asking "How much wood do I need to chop?"

No one can know that but you, as your personally set goals dictate how much of anything you need to make.

[main junco]

3 logs, 1 for a crafting table, 1 for 4 sticks and 2 wood, and 1 for the rest of the wood to make a pickaxe. 😉

[hybrid granite]

But how much after that?

[wind spade]

see, if you have your own goal, you know how much you need to make

so make a goal in SF and follow it

[median heath]

That's your personal number.
Some people build entire forts out of wood, so they need much more than that.

See how there is no definite answer beyond "Whatever you, personally, feel like making."?

[main junco]

thats the number you need to progress to better tools

[hybrid granite]

So then figure out the number of motors you need to make better stuff?

[main junco]

imma just do 10 and go from there

[hybrid granite]

Yeah that's a pretty safe option most times

[main junco]

i have steel screws and 16 foundries so i think i should be fine

[hybrid granite]

Yeah I mean whatever works for you

[fringe pawn]

I'll arbitrarily say do 10 motors a minute. That's a lot, sort of.

Depending on how much idle time you give the game, 10 motors a minute could be enough for you to finish the game as it is now.

[rotund sky]

How do you calculate how long an overflow system needs to work?

I'd like to do the math myself but i just have no idea where to start

[wind spade]

You mean manifolds?

[rotund sky]

Yeah

[wind spade]

There's really no formula for it

[burnt wraith]

time to make one

[rotund sky]

Ima take the time i'll have to wait for stuff to fill up to figure it out i guess

[burnt wraith]

I guess you have to figure out how long it takes for the 2nd to last machine to back up to the splitter

[wind spade]

You can use https://satisfactory.greeny.dev/machine-fill for rough estimation

(Click the "I know what I am doing" button)

[rotund sky]

Alright thanks

[median heath]

0.0s

Prefeed. Instant startup. Simple.

[rotund sky]

Good point but i dont have the resources to feed the machines yet

[oblique hollow]

cant be calculated

gave it a chance, the math is absurd and not usable

[median heath]

Could have been making them while building the machines. 🤷‍♂️

Multitasking is king in this game

[rotund sky]

Thb all i care about is a formula that would work in theory so i can estimate how long i'd have to leave my pc running

[median heath]

Game is genuinely "better" by the opinion of multiple people if you play it without leaving your PC running.

Meaning without afking.*

[oblique hollow]

it saves power too

[median heath]

If power is a factor in your decision-making... ||it means you're the one paying the bill 😉||

[rotund sky]

What does that have to do with anything

I'm just trying to find / make a formula with all the variables to calculate how long it'd take to have a manifold to work at full efficiency

[oblique hollow]

I tried that

Its not usable

[median heath]

0.0s

Prefeed. Instant startup. Simple.

[rotund sky]

Can you share some pics if you have any of your work?

[rotund sky]

Thanks!

[oblique hollow]

its not even 100% accurate as its hard to properly account for everything

[rotund sky]

True but i now have an idea of what my formula should somewhat resemble

Im just doing math for the fun of it lol

[oblique hollow]

well have fun, you have to use this formula for every single machine in succession

[median heath]

It is interesting how often in life that which is pointless is aligned with that which is fun.

[rotund sky]

I'll probably just write a script that does that with the formula

[oblique hollow]

greeny went with the sane solution: just simulate it and time it

[median heath]

Total time being 0s is the easiest to simulate 😉

[rotund sky]

We get it

I just want to do some math and coding to see how long it takes if you dont fill it up by hand

[gusty edge]

Do smart splitters works for storage organization and trash out excess items or do I need the programable splitter?

[hasty shore]

smart splitter works

[hasty shore]

just remember that you have to remember that if you want to do a manifold (i think that's how it's named), you need to set it up so the rest of the items go thru OVERFLOW, if it's not it can clog

[gusty edge]

Yeah I ended up doing a not so pretty setup

I think it will work

[hasty shore]

jummy spaghetti

[gusty edge]

[hasty shore]

[gusty edge]

yeah

[hasty shore]

nice

but, how did you set up the smart splitters?

[gusty edge]

Just like that

The bottom one is from incoming items so it just need to filter the overflow

And the upper one is the organization one

Just need to be aware for the conveyors to not overflow lol

Because like that any item will go into the awesome sink

I really need tier 4 belts now

[hasty shore]

to save more space you can do this

so you only need one row

but remember to put a sink at the end

if not, the system would clog up

[gusty edge]

I won t save much space at all but I can use another sink at the end

My initial idea was to send any overflow directly to the main sink

But I didn t coun t the over overflow

[hasty shore]

you could split overflow, half of the containers have one sink, half another

because with your idea it would be bottlenecked by the belt (note that you would still be bottlenecked, but much less)

[gusty edge]

For now a sink just for the organization part (upper) will solve the problem

[hasty shore]

yeah, but if you want to expand the storage, make it go to another sink

[gusty edge]

You mean like at the middle of it split into 2 sinks right?

[hasty shore]

yes

[gusty edge]

Yeah surely

[hasty shore]

exactly

[hasty shore]

that was what i was saying

[gusty edge]

It s all working now

[gusty edge]

Yeah I did that to place that sink in the end instead of sending it to the same one

[hasty shore]

to make it ""better"" you could make it like this: (sorry, i am bad at drawing on pc), (the belt going is 120/min)

[gusty edge]

Makes sense

[hasty shore]

U sure?

[gusty edge]

I mean, it would be a lot more work but eventually all the containers will be full and dumping 100% of the income

[hasty shore]

Instead of like 40

You just have to tweak the number of storage containers per sink depending on the imputs

[gusty edge]

40 what?

This is my main storage btw

Those itens are only for personal use

[hasty shore]

40%

[hasty shore]

What is the recycling Bin for?

[gusty edge]

Sorting and Sink if overflow

[hasty shore]

Ohh

[gusty edge]

That s the upper thing

[hasty shore]

Nice idea

[gusty edge]

Thanks

That s why that second sink

Now that I know how to make it work I could make a lot more compact, but I will let to do it in my 1.0 new save

[gusty edge]

Much cleaner

[hasty shore]

i mean... it works

i was saying one row is enough

[royal yacht]

using 2 rows allows you to differentiate between unassigned and overflow

using a single belt system if you chuck slugs in for example it has no way of knowing if it's just a misc item or an overflow item without a programmable splitter or two catching every single other item in the game

[median heath]

Use 5 rows 👀

[royal yacht]

5?

[median heath]

All the rows.

[royal yacht]

oh god

[gusty edge]

Yeah but as I said the top one is for the sorting system

[south lintel]

Greetings Pioneers,
Anyone know of an updated version of this calculator ? (screen only, link got deleted here)
I know the ones on SCIM and Tools, but i dont like them, they are ugly and hard to read, thats why i like this one but it has not been updated since U6. 😢

[gusty edge]

https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production

You mean this?

[south lintel]

yes, this is the one i dont like, the arrows are so hard to read, and not collapsible, thats why i ask for a new version of the other one where the colors are easier and you can collapse the steps when you are done (like this -> )

[wind spade]

you can just move them out of the way

[gusty edge]

Oh I get it, I don t know if there is any other calculator for it at the moment, but as greeny just said you can move the boxes away from each other

[south lintel]

https://tenor.com/view/starwars-the-mandalorian-baby-yoda-sad-thanks-anyway-gif-15947325

[royal yacht]

was actualling thinking something similar-ish to this for my calculator that I'm definitely working on and definitely haven't not even started yet

[wind spade]

the problem with the sankey diagram view is that it doesn't allow for loops or self-feeding easily

[vapid gorge]

It's one of my most hated of calcs yeah

very awks to use

[south lintel]

yes i noticed this one can do simple loops but not the best i agree

[vapid gorge]

I'd take scim over it and I greatly dislike scim

[south lintel]

"yours" which one ?

[vapid gorge]

as in group in my hate list, I don't run a calculator myself but I've tried a number of them

[feral mulch]

yeah the tools one does amazing loops (like used in plastic/rubber cycle...

[honest nebula]

So, I make 106.667 fuel on one output and 53.333 fuel from another and they both pipe into 10 fuel generators
which leaves exactly 40 fuel for packaging. Now if I put a buffer at the end and connect a packager it doesn't seem be able to get enough fuel (40pm with plastic) which is available in the system

help?

[wind spade]

don't use buffers

also loop the pipe manifold

[oblique hollow]

slap a pump down on the pipe
the generators take time to fill and any kind of strain on the pipe causes fluid levels to drop

and yeah, no buffer

they make it take even longer to fill up

[oblique hollow]

yeah add a pump for safety

somewhere near the packager line

it would probably work after waiting for like 30 minutes but a pump would not hurt either

[honest nebula]

much better without the buffer

[oblique hollow]

buffers take a minimum amount of fluid inside them before they output fluid again at the same rate that it flows into them

plus the packager input sits quite high

meaning the buffer would need to fill to like 200m³

so this would have taken quite a while

[honest nebula]

got it 🙂

[rotund rose]

i get this suggestion can sound stupid if you have no clue about programming, but you could learn python lets say and make a satisfactory calculator exactly how you want it

[south lintel]

I learned C and VB in school but i'm a boomer, last time I programmed something, it was a Space Invaders clone on my Casio Graph 60, it was around 2000-2001-ish ^^ and now i really dont have time to learn a new language again 😅

[royal yacht]

yes

and in fact for a while I was going to make a python API for it, but then I got lazy and decided to use someone else's JS one, and then I got creative and decided maybe C# and yeah I still haven't done any of it but hey

[rotund rose]

haha thats understandable, and projects can always be come back to

[gentle kestrel]

Hey guys! i find myself needing to find out the clock % for consuming a set amount more then i do a target production rate, rather then putting in %'s until you get it right over and over

what's a math formula i can use for trying to figure out the clock speed for a set Consumption of a ingredient i want?

[calm mauve]

you can type the number of items you want instead of the clock speed

[gentle kestrel]

Re-Read my question.

instead of wanting, im finding myself wanting to Consume a specific ammount of what the craft is using up more often then setting a target production rate

[calm mauve]

i would set it up in one of the online calcs

[crude cedar]

my brain is too fried at this point, but you could very easily do that with the output number or just adjust the percent slider till you see your desired number.

[calm mauve]

https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production

you can set the input items and ask it to find the max

[gentle kestrel]

Right, but im not wanting to use the percent slider every single time im adjusting a new recipie im wanting to figure out a math formula i can just use so i dont have to fiddle each and every single time

[gentle kestrel]

yeah but it doesnt include overclock %'s

just default 100%

[crude cedar]

you are going to need to for each recepie anyways

[gentle kestrel]

Right, but having a math formula i can enter is way fast then fiddling with the exact %

[crude cedar]

you can change that by adding slugs and allow overclocking in that calculator

[gentle kestrel]

am i able to tell it what belts i have acess to though, that also matters quite a bit

[calm mauve]

if the answer is more then 1 machine then that will be the overclock value

[crude cedar]

wait this isnt the calculator im used to, il get the other one, and yes you can tell it the belts as well

https://satisfactory-calculator.com/en/planners/production just add your input

change vue mode to realistic to do belts and overclock

view, not vue, vue ruined my spelling of view

[gentle kestrel]

oh, this one, it doesnt include maximize feature, guess i can just import from the other calculator

[vapid gorge]

Tools is superior to SCIM - it also doesn’t break it down into belts it lets you do the layout

[gentle kestrel]

yeah, tools is my prefered one

[gentle kestrel]

@median heath You Missed a Spot

[median heath]

Someone must have edited the page at some point... 😠

[wind spade]

Overclocking doesn't change how much you can make

[gentle kestrel]

Sorry, my original question involving that conversation was what formula would you have to do, to figure out how to hit a target consumption of an item used in the craft

[gentle kestrel]

in this case, how to hit 270 screws per minute using a equation instead of changing the clock speed % decimal by decimal until u get it perfect

that way i dont have to fiddle with overclock %'s every single time im doing a new craft and im trying to consume a set amount of something

[wind spade]

[desired output] / [recipe output] * 100 = [total clock % needed]

[burnt wraith]

desired consumption/base consumption

e.g. you want a smelter to consume 21 iron ore so 21/30 which is 70%

[burnt wraith]

(desired input) 270/195 (base input) ≈ 1.3846154 ≈ 138.4615%

[wind spade]

138.4616% 🙂

[burnt wraith]

wait why

wouldn't 138.46154 round to 138.4615

[oblique hollow]

better be at 270.00012 than 269.999925

in reality it doesnt matter at all because this error only causes an issue after 3 years runtime minimum

[burnt wraith]

oh that makes sense

[oblique hollow]

either way you have 40 screws too little or too much after one year

[wind spade]

it's .46154 -> .4616

[oblique hollow]

why not round down

[wind spade]

because if you want to make X, the machine must have equal speed or faster

by rounding down you're making it slower, not allowing it to make X

(yes, the difference is miniscule, but it's there)

[oblique hollow]

this is the exact point i made

it doesnt matter for years

[wind spade]

we're in #math-and-meta , we kinda want to be accurate here 🙂

[oblique hollow]

this is meta

you cannot have 100% accuracy with these clock rates

so you can pick whatever you want:
too little items after years of playtime or too many

[wind spade]

you can, if the machine only gets resources to make X, rounding up makes it stop at some point, but still make X, rounding down makes it not make X, so inaccurate

[wind spade]

this is only assuming that you're making more resources than the machine needs in the first place

[oblique hollow]

this is assuming you are trying to feed it what you wanted

namely: 270/min

[wind spade]

I mean that's what people usually do 🤷‍♂️ feed machines the amount they need

and if it's part of a manifold, then since it eats more than it should, some other machine is starved for the 0.0001

[oblique hollow]

and then they idle
so will any machine that fills up eventually due to making that 0.00001 too much
you get a moment of idling either way

[wind spade]

I mean accuracy of "making X", not as efficiency of machines

[oblique hollow]

this is 15.57693/min rotors vs 15.57691875/min
i dont think you can even get a reading this accurate

[wind spade]

if I want 15.57691875 rotors, I want that, not more 🤷‍♂️
even if the change is some small %, it's still a different amount

[oblique hollow]

i do not care
my meta argument: literally do not care about that last percent
you will not encounter it ever

[wind spade]

I'm talking about math, not meta

[oblique hollow]

and my argument is i do not care about the last digit

because it does not matter

[wind spade]

to you

[tall palm]

I made a mistake a while back in my run that would take a really long time to correct, so im wondering what the best way to move fluids over long distances is?

[median heath]

There is no best.

[tall palm]

its not a mission critical production line,

like power production or anything

[median heath]

Pipeline? Fine.
Trucks? Fine.
Trains? Fine.
Drones? Fine.

There is no best.

[tall palm]

is there any problems with pipelines over such long distance?

[median heath]

No.

[tall palm]

oh excellent

thank you

[tender nest]

sf tools is so cool when you get the hang of it

i feel like an idiot after planning ratios for a nuclear plant that were very wrong and it could of been done way quicker

[frosty owl]

I think there's nothing wrong with learning how to handle ratios and calculations for all production lines, as long as they're appropriately sized. That's what becoming familiar with the game is about ^^
It's one thing to use a tool to make a task simpler/more manageable, another to use a tool to avoid having to do a task 😉

[deft lichen]

so-called mid-to-late game changes

in a more readable format

[hard meadow]

oh, copper alloy got nerfed? Pretty understandable, it's extremely strong

[vapid gorge]

Just costs extra iron , no big impact

[livid compass]

Found a nice cave, water on the bottom, anything I should know?

[hard meadow]

I mean it doubles the iron cost. It's not insignificant, but I do think it's a good change because today's recipe is ridiculously strong. Literally just sprinkle in some iron for an insane increase in copper yield

I think the change makes a lot of sense

[deft lichen]

yeah, my point is that changing copper/iron ingot recipes will have a big impact, because many more factories are likely to rely on them

[hard meadow]

ah yeah it will

[deft lichen]

I agree that the change is fair (but I hate it, because I use alloy ingots extensively due to how OP they are :D)

[hard meadow]

😂

[lyric briar]

are there any circular hypertube cannon design working atm?

[thorn bane]

wait where is this from?

[junior aurora]

https://satisfactory.wiki.gg/wiki/Future_content

It's updated based on all the videos we've seen

[oblique hollow]

the announcement video

[thorn bane]

ah the hard drive video i see

[deft lichen]

you reminded me to add sources

they're in the page now, with a timestamp

[thorny sable]

I has a question:
I have 105ppm on a MK2 belt, and I need to get them into 60ppm and overflow using only splitters and mergers, no smart splitters. Could you do this?
My thinking is that you can split the 105ppm belt into two belts (52.5ppm), and then put a merger in front of the splitter to receive the extra 7.5ppm, using a MK1 belt to bottleneck, and send the rest away. Would this work, or have I simply willed it to work in my head?
It should work, because obv max MK1 belt speed is 60ppm, and it's all the same part, so the overflow will just go from the right splitter to the next machine
It's essentially a load balanced manifold on a small scale

might look something like this

[vapid gorge]

Iron is a trash resource nearly as ubiquitous as water imo tbh

[vapid gorge]

Are you specifically looking to load balance and are aware of manifolds?

[thorn bane]

yup that should work but it would split 30/75 -> 30/45 since mergers take left/right/left/right etc. resulting in 30/30 for the 2 inputs to the merger
i would make sure that the both merger inputs are both mk1 since funky stuff can happen to mergers with different mk belts as input

[median heath]

Rude. 😭

[gusty edge]

What s a good ratio for this item?

[median heath]

Good is a point of view, Anakin.

[thorny sable]

Yeah, Im super picky about my factory efficiency. Thanks Zy

[gusty edge]

[oblique hollow]

multiples of 20/min

oh wait HMF LUL

multiples of 12 would be it

but i doubt you wanna automate that

if you want no decimals at all, 36/min

takes like 9000/min Iron

1.8/min or 1.2/min would still be pretty ok with very little decimals

[frosty owl]

Single input sushi in the wild!
||And it's not from me! ||
@vapid gorge @median heath @thorn bane
https://www.reddit.com/r/SatisfactoryGame/s/81ZK9q4r2q

Well, not all quite "single input" , but... Things got complicated for OP 😅

[vapid gorge]

That’s not a detailed reply - a manifold is just as efficient as a load balancer

[tender nest]

2 modular frame a minute be like:

[thorny sable]

Only after everything fills up, which I refuse to wait for

[vapid gorge]

pre fill the machines

and or go do something else for hte few minutes as it starts up. You'll spend more time load balancing than waiting as things get more complex

[thorny sable]

Except for the part where I enjoy doing the math and cramming as much as I can in as small a space I can

[wind spade]

manifolds usually are smaller than balancers

[thorny sable]

Yes, I understand this. The inner requirement to load balance everything is not something I can explain to someone

[wind spade]

you're free to do so 🤷‍♂️

(though I'd personally recommend using "direct input" where possible)

e.g. if machine makes 60, make next machine need 60 and hook them 1:1

[tropic hawk]

if you enjoy it, go for it. Manifolding is time/resource saving in the long run, however nothing is saying you are required to do so

[wind spade]

@queen kite read #math-and-meta message for alt recipe choices

[queen kite]

ty

[gloomy thicket]

Can somebody help me better understand this whole thing? It's going over my head and I want an explanation before I do something stupid

[thorny sable]

well, an excellent way to play the game is to just screw around till something works.
This said, can you be specific as to what you don't understand?

[gloomy thicket]

So, I'm just confused on what it means with a decimal of a machine. "2.7 Manufacturer" for example. Is it changing the production time of one of the machines to take more or less, or? I'm just confused on that part specifically

[calm mauve]

you could go 2 manu's at 100% and 1 at 70%

or two manu's overclocked to 135%

[gloomy thicket]

This is the first time i've done a factory like this, so I'm going in blind with like no idea on complex logistics and planning

[thorny sable]

basically, like wubbits said, it means 2 machines run at normal speed, and then you need part of a machine by underclocking

[calm mauve]

or 3 underclocked to 90%

[thorny sable]

doesnt matter how you spin it, as long as you dont have excess material, or not enough material

[gloomy thicket]

In order to save space and time, for the oil requirements, does it JUST need 2 lines of 160m and 420m respectively to work, or does it have to be from 5 extractors?

[vapid gorge]

what's your final output?

[gloomy thicket]

10

10 caterium computers

[thorny sable]

you've got the idea. all you need is those two lines, so you just need to find a way to reach that

[gloomy thicket]

Overclocking a pure and a normal gave me those two easily

[thorny sable]

yeah then you're set, just do the splitting and merging

[calm mauve]

as long as you get to 600 it doesnt mater

[gloomy thicket]

The blue crater area where I'm set up has essentially everything I need

[gloomy thicket]

That's my second problem

[thorny sable]

ok shoot

[gloomy thicket]

Splitting and merging isn't something i've seen nor experimented with

I think it's called load balancing?

[thorny sable]

bingo

[gloomy thicket]

Not exactly my strongsuit

[thorny sable]

what are your outputs on your extractors

[gloomy thicket]

Which ones?

[vapid gorge]

I find this tool much more user friendly https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=aZDmP5QhuUuGLHavuGRy

[thorny sable]

that's ok, thats what I do best

[gloomy thicket]

im sorry thank you for all the help

[vapid gorge]

don't stress about load balancing if it's just another issue on the pile

[gloomy thicket]

Let's go one at a time

As of right now, I have 168 caterium coming through a normal node and 280 on the copper

[thorny sable]

switch to dm's if you wanna continue this

[gloomy thicket]

Sure, they're open

[vapid gorge]

so what is your main issue with this?

[gloomy thicket]

My mind immediately goes "oh well i can just overclock one node to give me everything I need" when I know full well belt speed is limiting me here

if that makes sense, but anyways, I just see numbers and my brain fries

[calm mauve]

and you still have to work out how many fuel generators you will need to burn the fuel

[vapid gorge]

you don't have have mk4 belts?

[gloomy thicket]

I do

but wouldn't that be too fast? or am I just overthinking?

[vapid gorge]

over thinking

no such thing as a too fast belt

[gloomy thicket]

Okay, then nevermind me

[vapid gorge]

ok what's the next issue you have other than moving base resources? 🙂

[gloomy thicket]

the overall placement and structure of the factory

Like layering and keeping it clean and pretty

and not cluttered like the clustertruck of my refineries for plastic and rubber

[vapid gorge]

That sort of thing is mostly practice and planning

Set up foundation spaces for each section with about how much space you think

I find building machines in a temp way gives you a good feel. You want at least a foundation width between production sections, more if you want them in separate buildings

[gloomy thicket]

I prebuilt a large area, trying to give myself space, and I planned on trimming/adding as I needed to after doing what you just suggested

[vapid gorge]

Maybe basic sketches could work for you?

I use spreadsheets and lable cells to vaguely plan it out before foundations.

But I only go to that much effort for big final factories

[vapid gorge]

Sounds good 🙂

[gloomy thicket]

I'll be back probably, see if I need anything else, I'm mainly worried about belts and managing them

[vapid gorge]

give yourself extra space 🙂 you'll be fine.

[orchid pond]

remember that material costs are refunded at 100%, so there's no cost other than time to tearing down and rebuilding 🙂

[wind spade]

No, keep it in public chat, more people can help that way

[frosty owl]

Only if you want to split off items on slower belts from the main one for [insert reason] it might be worth worrying about that

[vague garnet]

How do you calculate an oil loop, without using satisfactory tools? To my understanding, it involves some form of recursion. This question is mostly aimed at greeny as I am curious how they’ve done it. However if anybody else knows, please share.

[wind spade]

no recursion on my side 🙂

however my way of calculating isn't really suited for hand-calculations anwyway 😄

[vague garnet]

This isn’t for hand calculations

Another theory I had was that you had found some sort of multiplier that just spits out the answer to one of the needed numbers, and you reverse engineer it to figure out the rest.

Like if you figured out how many plastic refineries you needed, you could figure out how many rubber you’d need, and therefore how many rubber refineries, and therefore how much plastic you’re recycling

Like a fill in the blanks kind of thing, or like sudoku

[wind spade]

my algorithm works with any dataset, doesn't have anything hardcoded

if you're interested, I've described some of it here https://discord.com/channels/370472939054956546/1048004440914927628, though in reality it's more complex

[vague garnet]

Well how does your algorithm work then? I would read the source code but I have the comprehension skills of a potato

[vague garnet]

Thank you

[wind spade]

the solver is in private repository anyway 🤷‍♂️

[vague garnet]

That is also a setback 😂

So to clarify it’s just a bunch of maths, and will probably take a while for me to learn how to do it

[wind spade]

it's basically this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_programming

though wiki makes it look way more complex than it actually is
but it actually is way more complex than simple division/multiplication 😄

essentially it's an optimisation algorithm that optimises variables given limits and relations

[vague garnet]

Thank you very much for this, I will figure it out at some point. Or never. 😄

[wind spade]

it took me two months to understand it well enough to finally make it work for tools, so don't bash yourself for not understanding it 😄

[vague garnet]

Just out of curiosity, is there any other way to calculate it? Like a method that somebody might do by hand that I could use?

[royal yacht]

i don't know if @fallow vector uses a different method

[vague garnet]

Is signpostmarv behind a different calculator or something?

[royal yacht]

yeah theirs isn't one that as many people use at all, but it is more public

it's also designed in a way that you could use the code to make your own interface

[vague garnet]

I am happy to just make one if I had a method

[royal yacht]

I forget where their repo is but they do have the solving methods public I believe

[fallow vector]

Solving infinite series, reducing the recursion to a single multiplier.

[vague garnet]

I thought so

[fallow vector]

#math-and-meta message

[vague garnet]

Thank you

I have found a valid way, and I’ll share it after testing. It’s quite a shortcut.

[oblique hollow]

you mean recycled plastic and rubber?

this was something i arrived at when solving it manually

since the loop part is really simple as you take 1 rubber / plastic and turn it to 2 plastic / rubber

if you feed it into each other, you turn half of one into double of the other one

which just means that your output is technically 1:1 with the fuel input

1 plastic and 1 fuel becomes 2 rubber
2 rubber and 2 fuel becomes 4 plastic
subtract the 1 plastic input and its just 3 plastic output for 3 fuel input

you can do the same sub-loop for rubber

and the end result is fuel to rubber and fuel to plastic is 1 : 1

[fallow vector]

the code I used is generic

[vague garnet]

I figured it out, thanks to everyone who aided me. I stumbled my way through creating my own specialised algorithm that does it with ratios.

[oblique hollow]

neat. is it only for loops or is it generalized for other production chains?

[vague garnet]

Literally just oil loops

It’s all I wanted to figure out, and it’s a really specific use case

I might expand on functionality, and I can share more on how it works if you wish

[oblique hollow]

oil has technically only a single loop: recycled plastic plus rubber

[vague garnet]

Yes

Wait no

Fuel can be in there

Well I guess that doesn’t count as a loop

[oblique hollow]

its not a loop

[vague garnet]

Yeah I was wrong

[oblique hollow]

its a straight chain or a branch at worst

[vague garnet]

Byproduct

[oblique hollow]

Turbo Blend fuel has heavy oil and fuel as inputs

[vague garnet]

That is useful.

[vague garnet]

Relevance…?

[oblique hollow]

"complexity" / branching production chain

[vague garnet]

Ah

I could include turbo fuel production in the tool I made.

[oblique hollow]

heavy oil makes fuel and coke too so calculating the total oil cost there can be sooooort of difficulty when you start out there

and turbo blend needs all 3: fuel, hor and coke

so its a 3-way fork that merges back into one product

[vague garnet]

You could just work backwards

[oblique hollow]

yeah i know

[vague garnet]

And you could ignore HOR until the end

and then tack it on

Not too difficult I guess. Also isn’t the original recipe more efficient?

[oblique hollow]

turbofuel?

it uses less oil but more sulfur

Turbo Blend uses the least sulfur

[vague garnet]

I’ve only ever used the original, mostly because sulfur is often found near oil.

[oblique hollow]

not really.....?

theres like.... 2 small places i can think of that have sulfur somewhat close

norther forest / crater lakes and maybe the desert canyon

[vague garnet]

Okay well then those two places are probably where my oil is

[vague garnet]

Pretty much

[oblique hollow]

yea all other oil spots are quite far away from anything, both sulfur and coal

theres an exception for coal in the blue crater southwest

[vague garnet]

That’s why the gods gave us trains.

[oblique hollow]

or drones

[vague garnet]

Oh god drones

They’re the most inconvenient transport ever made

[oblique hollow]

point to point low throughput transport that needs a sort of hard to get fuel

[vague garnet]

They take only batteries, which takes sulfur and bauxite

[oblique hollow]

buuuut they dont need anything else to get going, infrastructure wise

[vague garnet]

Fair enough

[oblique hollow]

its actually very funny to use drones to make batteries for drones

[vague garnet]

And bloody risky

[oblique hollow]

i ship in packaged alumina with them

[vague garnet]

Unless you have some sort of backup plan

[oblique hollow]

well theres a container thats always jam packed with batteries

and that one cant be drained

so worst case i have to use some of those to start them back up if they stall somehow

but ive accounted for all stalling options

[vague garnet]

How?

[oblique hollow]

the can stall in 2 ways: destination full or home port full
home port always has an overflow sink
destination only receives a fixed number of cansiters back per delivery and the storage there can hold all canisters needed

so neither location can really stall unless some other things go majorly wrong

battery production is much greater than what the drones need and so thats not an issue either

[vague garnet]

Random question but have you done nuclear before?

[oblique hollow]

yes

[vague garnet]

I thought so

[oblique hollow]

i started up nuclear before i had waste processing

so i stored that gunk

i use drones to supply some of the materials needed for nuclear

[vague garnet]

Ooh I did the same except I had a full nuclear with 2520 uranium waste a minute

[oblique hollow]

hehe, i had like a single nuke making waste before i unlocked processing

so i had quite the long time before that would ever be an issue

[vague garnet]

My storage lasted minutes 🤣

[oblique hollow]

exactly why i didnt bother with a big setup until then

heres the part of nuclear thats supplied by train xd

[hybrid granite]

Ooh color coded belts
Nice

[vague garnet]

Very nice

[worn saffron]

There was this gotcha I read about, that special care must be taken when the 1st ever foundation is placed. The one that will align with the grid and that every other foundation thereafter can align with. What was the reason and the rule? It cannot be the 1m one?

I think it had to do with vertical alignment.

Yeah, it was 1m, as it aligns vertically in the middle of the 4m vertical "box", leaving 1.5m at the top and at the bottom, so in the future it will misalign vertically by 0.5m with any other foundations where 2m or 4m was used.

[amber umbra]

@worn saffron Yes, the 1 m foundation blocks snap vertically at 0.5 m increments. The 2 m and 4 m blocks snap at 1 m increments. So the advice is to always align to world grid with 2 m or 4 m blocks to avoid the weird 0.5 m incorrect vertical alignment.

Definitely learned that personally... I do wonder if that will get patched in 1.0.

[royal yacht]

2 things:

1. it's not a huge issue when you can just build a 2m and then replace it with a 1m very easily
2. don't build world grid?

oh and 3. it's not hard to correct it, but it depends how much you care about the soft clipping

[median heath]

I highly support #2.

[hybrid granite]

Why would someone want to avoid using world grid? I always think it'd be better to have all the factories on the same grid, so I'm curious if it's just a matter of personal preference

[median heath]

Why would you want to use it?

Having something in the Dune Desert the same orientation as something in the Grassy Fields is... meaningless. As you cannot see one from the other.

Trucks drive on the dirt.
Trains curve.
Drones fly.

WG alignment is "I intentionally want all of my stuff to look horrible against the terrain alignment for no other reason than I personally choose to."

Which, if that's your jam, knock yourself out. 🤷‍♂️

[hybrid granite]

You know what, I can't say I thought about it like that lol
I always thought of it as "The game gives me a grid to work with, and I like making stuff on grids to make it look clean, so I'll use the grid provided to me"

[median heath]

It didn't have a grid for the longest time.

They slapped it on the very much after-the-fact because people complained.

[hybrid granite]

I started playing maybe update 6 or 7, I forget exactly
Either way I learned about it and figured it had always been there lol

[wind spade]

grid is provided by default by building on foundations
global grid is what is poin tless

[hybrid granite]

Yeah I know but I figured there'd be a reason so I used it

[true junco]

The reason was people complaining. 😆

That said my OCD has caused me to use the World grid more often than not.

[hybrid granite]

Fair
I may end up doing a hybrid option, where I line up one foundation with the world grid but use that to rotate another foundation to match the local terrain better
That way it'll still have some sort of anchor point

[barren elm]

Fun OCD fact

If you snap a foundation to another, and the foundation isn't facing east (good luck figuring that out when it's a square, and yes that square has a facing), every snapped foundation will be very slightly off

A fact that you can see yourself in the satisfactory save editor, or if you're unfortunate enough to have built a huge congruent snapped grid that will very slowly drift off the global grid

[vapid gorge]

use a ramp to know the facing

also fuck the world grid

[barren elm]

I use splitters, if the input arrow is facing east, it's orientated correctly

Less fiddly than ramps

[median heath]

*Only with consent.

[vapid gorge]

something something inanimate objects/concepts 😛

[hasty pelican]

How does one have 180 Oil Extractors?

[wind spade]

that tool doesn't have map limits built in 🤷‍♂️

[hasty pelican]

Damn

I guess I need to tweak my output to respect map limits?

[wind spade]

or use another tool that does have them

[hasty pelican]

Does that exist?

[wind spade]

there are few in #welcome , my tool f.e. has it

(and can calculate oil loops 😛 )

[vapid gorge]

https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production

[hasty pelican]

Thx !

[vague garnet]

Turns out it’s more complicated than that, it is actually included in the oil loop

300 Rubber and 300 Plastic is 200 Oil

300 Fuel by itself is 112.5 Oil

300 Fuel, 300 Rubber and 300 Plastic is 300 Oil

I have no idea how to figure that out, or better yet: how to incorporate it into the loop

[vague garnet]

From what I can tell, there are reductions of oil consumption in oil loops when fuel is produced, it also affects how many refineries are used in the recycled plastic and recycled rubber parts of the loop. Anybody got an idea?

[oblique hollow]

When doing recycled, you rarely use the default recipes to produce rubber or plastic
Its not a loop as fuel doesnt move in circles

[vague garnet]

I have realised this and something else

I can just produce the fuel needed for the loop and the fuel required

Then I can feed in the fuel required and subsidise the polymer resin

[oblique hollow]

The loop can be broken up into 2 straight chains even

granted, that still has some loopback unless you have raw input of rubber and plastic

But there is some sinplification possible, depending on how exactly you set it up

The loop process is usually kickstarted by hand

meaning it can run without external rubber or plastic supply

[vague garnet]

This is a pain to figure out

This has an input of 187.5 oil, the polymer resin and fuel consume 112.5 oil. This totals to 300 oil. I did it! 😄

[oblique hollow]

Why is there external resin supply?

[vague garnet]

I’ll get to implementing it into the algorithm/rewriting the entire algorithm

[vague garnet]

It’s omitted for readability

[oblique hollow]

oh its from fuel production

[vague garnet]

But the external fuel and resin total to 112.5 oil

[oblique hollow]

i see

[vague garnet]

Totalling to a total of 300 oil. Total.

Which finally explains where the reduction in oil consumption comes from.

[oblique hollow]

The main efficiency backbone that makes this work is fuel production

[vague garnet]

What do you mean?

[oblique hollow]

HOR alt has an efficiency of 133.333% crude to HOR

Diluted fuel turns that to double fuel

so oil to fuel is 266.6666%

Recycling turns fuel 1:1 to plastic and rubber

the last 33.33333% come from resin

If fuel production werent so efficient, recycling wouldnt be as good

as its efficiency directly depends on the efficiency of fuel production

[vague garnet]

Unrelated, but what I have noticed from this diagram is that the fuel production is going to be more than what is needed in the output, which means fuel production needs to be calculated twice.

[oblique hollow]

calculate fuel demand by figuring out total rubber and plastic needed for recycling

[vague garnet]

Or by just calculating oil needed from the output, and then working forwards until I get the amount of fuel

Wait would that work

[oblique hollow]

forward solving isnt as easy

[vague garnet]

Well it’s more meeting in the middle

Because I have the end product

[oblique hollow]

Its kinda the same result in the end

[vague garnet]

I am just figuring out an intermediate

I have to calculate the fuel needed, and then add that to fuel demand.

Then I need to subtract polymer resin consumption, because I am adding polymer resin from fuel. (I don’t know how to split that yet, I guess in the ratio of plastic to rubber)

Then calculate the loop a second time, and finally have my answer

That sounds right I think

Oh wait I also need to factor in fuel on the second time round

[oblique hollow]

polymer goes 100% into residual rubber

residual plastic efficiency is much lower

[feral breach]

For aluminium production... How should I go about filling the system so it has enough water to run mostly on recycled water... The calculator is telling me to pump in about 1/3rd and recycle the rest. Would I need a reservoir or something for the initial run before it get stabilised on waste water?

[wind spade]

see #math-and-meta message

[feral breach]

I was actually looking for that + the picture below

I had it opened... but discord forgot it 😄

[vague garnet]

Okay I’ve gotten quite far yet am stuck again, on a more logical problem than anything else. I know how much fuel I need for plastic and rubber… total. But to figure out the needed amount of refineries I need the separate values - basically how much for plastic, and then how much for rubber.

Bashing head against the wall has given me the idea of backtracking the fuel into oil required, doing something which I haven’t figured out yet to get the separate amount of oil for rubber, and then working forwards to figure out how much fuel for rubber. (And then from that inferring plastic)

Any thoughts?

Actually I might have an idea, will attempt that

[feral breach]

Maybe using production calculator might help you figure it out

[vague garnet]

I am making one of those 😅

[feral breach]

if you are using tools you can input both plastic and rubber with target QTY and it will tell you how much to send each way

[vague garnet]

I’m aware, but it’s not my intention. I am trying to create my own algorithm that does what tools does, mostly for the principle of being able to say I can do oil loops without tools

[wind spade]

making tools so that you can say you can do it without tools is next level 🤔 😄

[plain rivet]

don't trust big tools. do your own research.

[fringe pawn]

Which ultimately just leads you back to using someone else's tools instead of making your own in a lot of cases 😛

[median heath]

Doing your own research would usually involve using the internet, which is a big tool.

[vague garnet]

Ironically though I am double checking everything: against tools. Also goddammit this is difficult.

[vague garnet]

Make your own

[true junco]

Who you calling a big tool? the internet crying because you hurt its feelings

[manic oak]

If I'm reading this right, you're trying to use the classic Triple Rubber/Plastic setup using the recycled recipes. The magic numbers for fuel are 2/3 and 1/3. Turning all oil into HOR and all HOR into diluted fuel, 2/3 of your fuel is sent towards making the final product (rubber/plastic) and 1/3 is sent towards making the intermediate product (plastic/rubber). This is due to the fact that the intermediate recycling step takes half as much fuel as the final step (i.e. 2x + x = 1 => x = 1/3, where x is the fraction of fuel sent to intermediate recycling).

[north monolith]

By hand? I was using spreadsheets for everything and it wasn't really hard, just time consuming to set up

[thorn bane]

thats only for rubber not for plastic right? since you want residual rubber on both

[kindred mirage]

How would i go about producing 450 screws/minute for my HMF factory (200 for HMF and 250 for modular frames)?

hopefully this is the right channel for this

[wind spade]

two constructors with steel screws 🤷‍♂️

[kindred mirage]

Hmm

one sec

[wind spade]

welcome to the world of making tools, where days fade into years and you're still wondering why your code doesn't do what it should

[kindred mirage]

At what clock speed? One constructor with an output rate of 450/min gets a very awkward input rate

[royal yacht]

oh fuck is that only meant to be when making tools?

[wind spade]

just use online tools to calculate how much you need 🤷‍♂️

decimals aren't scary

[vague garnet]

Wait seriously…. It’s just 2/3 and 1/3?

[kindred mirage]

wait a second
If i set it to give me 520/minute, would it be possible to split it into 450 + 70?

[wind spade]

only for rubber. For plastic it's not

[wind spade]

manifold

[vague garnet]

What’s it for plastic?

[wind spade]

17/7

[vague garnet]

Oh wait yes the ratios are what I’ve been using

My method is to do a “full plastic” calculation, and then a “full rubber” calculation and then just sum them.

[wind spade]

fun begins when you don't have one of the recipes 🙂

[vague garnet]

Because for some reason adding the factories together just works

[wind spade]

that's why you can't really hardcode ratios 😦

[vague garnet]

no

I play with all recipes unlocked

So I am fine

[wind spade]

well you do, but when making tools for other people, you kinda have to take other options into account

[vague garnet]

Fortunately I am going off grid from big tools™️

But anyways, how do I figure out how much fuel goes to rubber and plastic

Or am I approaching this from the wrong angle and it’s something else like a ratio

[wind spade]

based on how many buildings you have for each

[vague garnet]

Some fuel goes to there, some goes elsewhere.

[vague garnet]

I determine how many buildings with the fuel

So that’s a bit of a pickle

[wind spade]

are you solving forwards? 😛

[vague garnet]

Kinda in like every direction

I first do the fuel

[wind spade]

that's weird approach imo

[vague garnet]

Then I go from plastic and rubber, backwards, up to oil, then to polymer resin, then back again

[vague garnet]

I know, it’s wonderful

But if it works, I can fix it later

[wind spade]

tbh I still stand behind my opinion that you can't solve forwards nor backwards, you have to solve it as a single solve (using e.g. linear programming with simplex), otherwise you'll end up with tons of unsolvable issues

[vague garnet]

See, you spoke English there until that bit in the brackets

And that’s where you lost me

[wind spade]

the problem with solving backwards: some recipes may produce byproducts that could've been useful earlier in the solve
the problem with solving forwards: you need to solve backwards to know which recipes to use

[river night]

solve backwards and iterate?

[wind spade]

would need to calculate limits and at that point it's just easier to do LP solving

[frosty owl]

You need as much fuel as the amount of Plubber you're making

[vague garnet]

Not equal?

[frosty owl]

That's because you're also making rubber using Polymer Resin instead of Fuel

By "Plubber" I was referring specifically to the output of the two Recycled recipes

The full formula would be something along the lines of
Fuel = Recycled Plubber output - Residual Plubber output

[frosty owl]

Recycled Plubber: 700 + 300
Residual Plubber: 166
Fuel = 700 + 300 - 166 = 377 + 455

[vague garnet]

Oh yes thank you

How did you get to that 377 + 455 figure though?

[frosty owl]

Those are the output numbers for Fuel in your picture ^^ (https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/558721941410807812/1273578977113538571/1273572352096997439remix-1723715288453.png?ex=66bf205a&is=66bdceda&hm=e494e8757f9a9c0f7b85b902c9e5092bbaea40b2cec0a22fd8a305f83556b1af&)

[oblique hollow]

its real easy to find a max as you can later on just shift plastic to rubber or vice versa
the sum is 1000 either way

now i just gotta reverse this so it calculates back to oil lul

[manic oak]

It’s for both. Once you’re done, you siphon off some of the finished product to jump start the intermediate step (combined with the residual step), which leaves you with slightly less plastic than rubber. The only limiting factor in the system is fuel.

[wind spade]

it's not for both because you want to use residual rubber always, no matter if your product is plastic or rubber

for rubber it's 2/1
for plastic it's 17/7

[manic oak]

I think I see the production line you mean, but I’m not sure I see 17:7. I got 11:5 when I tried the calculation, but I’m doing the entire thing in my head because I don’t have paper atm, so I probably made a mistake somewhere. If I’m right, for Jack’s purposes, it’s probably easier to think of it as 3 ratios: 2:1, 1/16. The 2:1 is the number of final recycled refineries to intermediates for the 15/16 of the total fuel, and 1/16 is the fuel siphoned off the total for the residual rubber recycling.

[wind spade]

https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=p0FGa38NposOw0r5s94I

[thorn bane]

my 2 cents on this
lets start with needing 1000 rubber
you need rubber for plastic so you need a total of r = 1000 + 0.5 * p
same with plastic but you only need it for rubber so its p = 0.5 * r
now we already get some rubber from residual rubber which is
rubber = resin / 4 = fuel / 8 = (rubber + plastic) / 16
so we get the system r = 1000 + 0.5 * p - (r+p)/16, p = 0.5 * r
this is two equation of 2 unknowables so it solvable (its just cancer)
thats why greenies tool just uses a solver for this type of equation
but you can of course do it by hand (i wont cause thats what wolfram alpha is for)
so with generic inputs of a rubber and b plastic you get
```r=a+0.5p-(r+p)/16;p=0.5r+b solve for r and p````
https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=r%3Da%2B0.5*p-(r%2Bp)%2F16%3Bp%3D0.5*r%2Bb+solve+for+r+and+p
with result

r = 2/27 (16 a + 7 b)
p = 2/27 (8 a + 17 b)

https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=r+%3D+2%2F27+(16+a+%2B+7+b)%2C+p+%3D+2%2F27+(8+a+%2B+17+b)%3Ba%3D1000%2Cb%3D0
as sanity check:
do 0 plastic 1000 rubber we get 1185 rubber 592 plastic or the mentioned 1:2 ratio
and with 1000 plastic 0 rubber we get 518 rubber and 1259 plastic or the mention 7/17 ratio
of course you get the refinery count by just dividing by 60

[manic oak]

I found the error. I was using the wrong ratio of rubber from pr to total fuel (somehow got 1/16 instead of 1/8). I agree it’s 17:7, though for the purposes of an algorithm, it’s probably better to just know that the 2:1 calculation now only applies to 7/8 the total fuel, unlike for rubber

[fossil gulch]

Regarding solving forwards or backwards - I just create recipes in my code that "wrap" certain things I know to be true, like "1 Crude Oil -> 3 Plastic"

[wind spade]

only with certain recipes 🤷‍♂️

[fossil gulch]

Why only certain ones? What couldn't you abstract with this approach?

[wind spade]

if you don't have alt HOR + DF/DPF + recycled recipes, the ratio isn't valid

[vague garnet]

"Oil in" should be 300, not 312.5

[oblique hollow]

at 300 you only get 900 plastic/rubber

[vague garnet]

My mistake

[vague garnet]

So it's just... solve it with algebra?

Like the equivelant of solving for x?

[oblique hollow]

basically

at the end of the day it is just solving for X

its all from oil

you got your known end sum (plastic and rubber output), and got your inbetween variables (recipes and conversion efficiencies)

[vague garnet]

... jesus christ I'm an idiot

So what, I just "borrow" ZyRaNex's formula, and substitute my own values, and solve for it?

It was that easy?

[oblique hollow]

if you want

[vague garnet]

You spreadsheet, how did that work?

Or were those just filled in values manually?

[oblique hollow]

it is math, solved specifically for this issue

basically this but as excel forumlas

do not ask me how i arrived at some of the odd ones here like what "Percentage" represents

[vague garnet]

I am tempted

[oblique hollow]

but as far as i remember it represents the fraction of residual rubber you get compared to fuel output

[vague garnet]

I'll just quickly make that in sheets, give me a second

[oblique hollow]

since resin is coupled with HOR and thus fuel, the amount of residual rubber you get is determined by how much fuel you make
so its a fixed percentage

My sheet always makes an equal mix of rubber and plastic, but the total output is correct

so you can shift one to the other if needed as the sum is the same

500 plastic and 500 rubber is the same as 100 plastic and 900 rubber

just the number of refineries for each that changes

[vague garnet]

I made the sheet

No idea what I am doing 👍

Or what any of the values mean

What is a rest rubber?

[oblique hollow]

Rubber is made and rubber is used

Produced rubber minus needed rubber (for recycling to plastic) = rest (remainder)

[vague garnet]

Right

So plastic and rubber out is supposed to be equal, correct?

[oblique hollow]

if you do a 50/50 split, no, as rubber out only takes into account recycled rubber in my math

not TOTAL rubber like residual rubber

[vague garnet]

Also, sorry if my questions are stupid or annoying

[oblique hollow]

Its fine

i didnt document anything well so i have to guess too wth i did back then

[vague garnet]

I can't wait until 1.0 releases and all of this work just doesn't even apply anymore /s

[oblique hollow]

Rubber out and Plastic Out are calculated from the Fuel Input

and use a multiplier of 1-x or 1+x
where X is that "Percentage" fraction of residual rubber from making fuel

[vague garnet]

Makes sense

Why the 1- or 1+?

[oblique hollow]

cause you cannot turn rubber into more rubber

you have to recycle it as plastic

or you dont and just add it as a rubber product

if you want equal output of plastic or rubber, then you take
Fraction made of Recycled Rubber + Fraction of Residual Rubber
and
Fraction of Recycled Plastic
this creates an imbalance of how much rubber you need to make by recycling

[vague garnet]

So rubber out, on there, would be 800 * -3.16666666667?

Okay yes it is

[oblique hollow]

800 * (1 - 0.0416666)

so 0.9583333333

this basically gives you the ratio of recycled rubber to recycled plastic refineries

[vague garnet]

How did you even figure this out

[oblique hollow]

Fuel is 1:1 with rubber or plastic
so the max of either one i can make would be all of the fuel turned to rubber or plastic

so you can calculate it by just turning it all into rubber or plastic (Which is what Rubber out and Plastic Out simulate)

the next 2 steps is just "take half of each value"

[vague garnet]

So to take it from the top, here are the steps to figuring it out:

Determine fuel going in, then make a percentage of 3*0.5*resin*/fuel

[oblique hollow]

and then the last step is adding back the residual rubber or something

[vague garnet]

Oh my goodness I get it now

Well your spreadsheet at least

[oblique hollow]

i guess its
(Fuel * Resin*0.5)/3?

no wait

its
0.5*Resin / 3*Fuel

[vague garnet]

100% sure?

[oblique hollow]

yes. that makes 100 / (800*3)
so 100/2400 which is 0.04166666

[vague garnet]

I'm going to recreate that then in sheets

One second

[oblique hollow]

Im currently trying to write everything as simple algebra

and then trying to simplify it

[vague garnet]

I can safely say I understand how it works

However I do not understand why it works

[oblique hollow]

My favourite kind of math

"Ok it works and i know how... But why"

do not ask me what big brain move was behind the "Percentage" variable

[vague garnet]

Yeah that was my main "what"

I assumed it was some form of quadratics I hadn't learnt yet

Mind sending another screenshot of your table @oblique hollow

Without any formula inspected?

[oblique hollow]

i changed oil in to 27 so the numbers all changed

i assume percentage arrose due to a need of some kind of shift between the rubber and plastic ratio

it may be because residual rubber is always one third of the oil input??

actually percentage just seems to be a number relation

its 1/24

always

aaaaaah

Resin + Fuel = 81

81 is 3 x the oil input

so it relates it to the total oil cost

So its (Rubber in / Fuel in) / (Rubber in + Fuel in)/Oil in)

Rubber to Fuel relation over total conversion efficiency

dont ask me how that makes sense

Oh wait

Fuel is 1:1 with rubber and plastic

so technically its just the Fraction of Residual Rubber to the total Rubber or Plastic Output, divided by the conversion efficiency of the recipe chain, which is 3

[vague garnet]

This is great you've gone insane from this too.

[oblique hollow]

Its the most bizarre thing i have no clue what kind of mushrooms i ate back then but they most be straight from math academia basements

[vague garnet]

I've recreated the table and I'm trying to see if I could "inject" more polymer resin into the production

[vague garnet]

You ate the forbidden pi.

[vague garnet]

That's so I could add a fuel production as well, and save on oil

[oblique hollow]

fun part is my table has a way to account for that

the "Rubber in" box in the top right

If you increase the rubber there, the percentage changes

at a resin input of 6 x Fuel input, it turns to 100%

[vague garnet]

Ooh look at mister/misses better than me over here

[oblique hollow]

meaning you dont need to recycle any plastic back to rubber

[vague garnet]

With their fancy excel tables

[oblique hollow]

I just noticed that as i was looking ok

I somehow peaked back then and now i fell off

[vague garnet]

Lol

To clarify I was joking

[vague garnet]

Oh ffs

Beat me to it

Btw out of curiousity what is @Pioneers?

(Didn't want to ping them so I did it silenced)

[oblique hollow]

pioneers are people who have been given a funny blue role by snutt because we helped a lot with stuff

in my case its because of me being the local plumber

and having made a bunch of pipe infographs and just general pipe help

[vague garnet]

Wait you wrote the plumbing guide?

[supple mist]

what tier of conveyers would i need to move 300 units per second effectively , because tier 2 is too slow

[oblique hollow]

Maybe check the author of that thing, its written in there

[vague garnet]

Mark 4

[vague garnet]

...Oh my god it's like meeting the Messiah

[oblique hollow]

Page 2, Above the table of contents even

[supple mist]

that takes.... aluminum , right?

[vague garnet]

I skipped that bit

[oblique hollow]

no it takes steel. But its unlocked in Tier 6 which needs oil

[vague garnet]

Encased Industrial Beams, unlocked in Tier 6 however

For now just use three mark two's

Or a mark three and a mark one

[oblique hollow]

they dont have mk 3 i think

[vague garnet]

Or be evil and use five mark ones

[supple mist]

yah , that's what i'm doing, just a shame that it's too slow

[oblique hollow]

it even has the old discord numerator

[supple mist]

i think that'll make my speed issue worse , not better

[vague garnet]

What's the opposite of retracting a comment?

Extending?

[oblique hollow]

doubling down?

[vague garnet]

Okay then, I'm doubling down on this

Freaking wrote my holy texts

[supple mist]

since i need T. 4 conveyers to move my product effectively, is there at least a way of evenly distribute one outsource to 10 different inputs?

[vague garnet]

?

Like split into ten?

[oblique hollow]

split one belt over 10?

[supple mist]

evenly, yes

[oblique hollow]

what exactly are you trying to do?
Lets start there

[vague garnet]

Split into six, but have a merger before the splitter. Merge one lane back into the merger.

Then split each output of the five-way splitter.

Alternatively, build two five-way splitters and go the other way around.

[supple mist]

one of my miners if produsing 300 ore a sec and i'm trying to outsource it to 10 differant smelters , the math adds up , just i need better conveyers and i need a good way to split them up

[supple mist]

i don't have 5 way spliters ;w;

[oblique hollow]

well if you dont have a fast enough conveyor, you cannot use the 300/min

whats the fastes belt you have? mk 2?

[vague garnet]

You can make them

Split into six, and merge one lane back to the start

[supple mist]

i figure that much , i already said that myself, and yah

[oblique hollow]

then you can only use 120/min
not 300/min

[supple mist]

that adds up

[oblique hollow]

there is nothing you can do
split the 120/min up into 4 smelters (if its copper or iron)

[supple mist]

i'd rather stay inefficient than that, to do that i'd have to kill a large chunk of my production

[oblique hollow]

or you have to leave it idle until you have a fast enough belt

Either way, you production will be inefficient

[vague garnet]

Again.. just have two belt lanes

Or three

[oblique hollow]

Find another miner making ore then

[supple mist]

this might as well be hieroglyphics to me hun

[orchid pond]

every S is a splitter, and every M is a merger. arrows are belt directions. numbers are ratios based on the original input

[supple mist]

so if i had a 10 input , i'd split that dedign into 2 with a splitter?

[orchid pond]

correct

you can split most ratios with low prime number splitters. higher primes are where it gets annoying, but with overclocking and the way ratios work in game that is rarely necessary. you can also use manifolds

[vague garnet]

The wiki actually has a really good page about them. It also really forces it down your throat though that you should use manifolds.

[supple mist]

this is only my second time even playing the game, i have no clue what a manifold is

[oblique hollow]

(manifolds are chains of splitters where you just wait for overflow)

[orchid pond]

i'm a manifold user myself but certain things (cough nuclear) are better with splitters

[oblique hollow]

but overflow doesnt work if you have 10 machines but only enough input to feed 4 of them

[vague garnet]

Have done full nuclear with no load-balancing. Don't.

[orchid pond]

basically each machine has its own splitter, and resources overflow into the earlier splits resulting in all of the machines getting filled at the correct rate regardless of the ratios. the downside to this is that it has a "spin-up" time as the first few machines fill up with resources

[supple mist]

sounds sweet , so it's something with splitters that helps with production, that's about all i know right now

[orchid pond]

yes, it's an alternative to "load balancing" (the thing that diagram was for) that is generally much easier to build

the only thing i use load balancing for is nuclear power and certain manufacturer setups

[supple mist]

if it's much easier to build and does the same thing, why am i being told to biuld the harder version?

[oblique hollow]

It depends on preference

[sterile tangle]

Question:
there are 2 ways to get oil production:

1. Use of base recipes and dealing with residues by recycling or using them in another recipe
2. Turn all oil to HOR and PR and use recycling recipes.
   Option 1 uses less buildings, water is optional but more oil, while option 2 uses less oil but more buildings and additional water.

Idk which one to choose. I'm trying to make a factory that makes 1 stack / min of everything useful, and satis-tool keeps preffering option 2, which i initially thought was BS.

Here's what i mean:

[vague garnet]

I did it! Finally, I can now say that I am free of big tools

[vague garnet]

Always option 2

Just... don't make a calculator for it

Trust in big tools

[sterile tangle]

ok!

[vague garnet]

What

What on earth am I look at?

Oh nvm

[sterile tangle]

The megafactory

[vague garnet]

It's just a mess

[vague garnet]

Huh a stack a minute is a good rule of thumb

But also horrific

[sterile tangle]

Hope the lightweight actor thing will make this more possible than now cuz this sh*t def exeeds the actor limit, even tho it's quite high.

[sterile tangle]

yes

you see, i may like to suffer 🙂

But Obsidian has proven to be great for this project

[vague garnet]

That's actually really cool

[sterile tangle]

1 base equals 1 purpose. Each base has a radar, so their placements are based on the optimal radio tower placement post on reddit. Each base gathers resources, uses the ones it wants and sends the rest to the others. The purpose of a base is based on wether the material is most dominant in that area, so the Coal base is where most coal on the map is (to reduce train traffic). Theres 16 bases so i used to call the project 16x100 (first i wanted 100/min of each but the more expensive items made that impossible with any alt combo). This really will be my most difficult project.

[wind spade]

Split that into multiple factories

[feral breach]

like... im trying to figure out the 4th one... Like I think I understand to do 90% for clean water 210% for recycled water... but why is the ratio so different 😄 or am I reading it completely wrong

[oblique hollow]

bottom right?

2.1 refineries for recycled water, 0.9 for fresh water
for 4 refineries making scrap

thats why the ratio is 21:40
its 2.1 to 4 but x10

the number of total refineries for alumina to scrap is 1 to 1

but the numbers for electrode scrap byproduct water are abysmal so it has the worst ratio for byproduct water recycling

[feral breach]

ah, just so its a whole number, got it 😄

definitely dont have enough aluminium around to run that many tho

so underclocking it is 😄

[versed violet]

So, random question regarding todays vid - is the caterium ore/ingots going to be removed in 1.0? If they removed the namesake person, then the ore must go too, right?

[manic oak]

In case you're interested (or if anyone else wants to see the math on this, and also because I just like talking about math), here's a breakdown of how the Recycled Rubber/Plastic lines break down:

• We can effectively think about these setups as turning fuel into rubber/plastic, since it's actually the only limiting resource in all of this.
• Using the H.O.R. recipe, you'll always have half as much P.R. as you do H.O., which means you'll always have a ratio of 1:4 PR:Fuel. If you always use this PR to make Residual Rubber, you'll have excess rubber ratioed to fuel at 1:8. This will be important for plastic production.
• We'll now divide the process into three steps: Direct, Intermediate, and Final. Direct. The Direct stage will apply only in plastic production (as @wind spade pointed out to me yesterday), and is simply a direct transformation of the residual step into the desired product using the appropriate recycled recipe. The intermediate step is a recycled recipe making the opposite of the desired product (so rubber/plastic for plastic/rubber), and the final step makes the desired product with the opposite recycled recipe.
• Because of how the recycled recipes work, the intermediate step always takes half as much fuel as the final step. In other words, if the intermediate step consumes x fuel, the final step consumes 2x. Since we can now work in units of F (total fuel), each variable from here on out will represent a ratio of the total fuel available. (Continued in next message).

[oblique hollow]

I think they are worn out a bit after all this math xd

[manic oak]

• Rubber: For Rubber, there is no direct step, and the residual rubber is combined with excess from the final step to supply the intermediate step. We must then have 2x + x = 1 => x = 1/3. Thus, 1/3 of the total fuel produced goes towards the intermediate step, and 2/3 goes to the final step, for a ratio of 2:1 Refineries for Final:Intermediate steps.
• Plastic: We still want to use Residual rubber since it's more resource efficient, but this means we can cut out a portion of the intermediate step (we don't need to make residual plastic and then recycle it into rubber, we can just make recycled plastic). The amount of Rubber we've made is 1/8 our total Fuel, and we need a 1:1 ratio of Fuel to Rubber to supply the recycled step, so we now only have 7/8 of our total Fuel leftover for the Intermediate/Final steps. These still need a 2:1 ratio, but now we have 2x + x = 7/8 => x = 7/24. The final fuel tallies for plastic are: Direct: 3/24, Intermediate: 7/24, Final: 14/24. If you combine the Direct and Final refinery tallies (which is fine since they're technically the same recipe anyways), you get 17/24 refineries making recycled Plastic, whereas 7/24 make recycled Rubber, which is where Greeny got the ratio of 17:7

[manic oak]

But it was just so cool I had to talk about it 😦

[oblique hollow]

I saw 1/24 and just had to assume i somehow arrived at that myself back then when i made my spreadhseet because i do not know what i was doing with mine back then.... but it WORKS... somehow

[oblique hollow]

Specifically when doing the math here

[tough pebble]

No. The story will exist to justify the gameplay, not the other way around. Caterium is a very well established gameplay element and if it were being removed it would of been a huge part of previews.

[manic oak]

Yeah, the common denominator of 1/24 comes from keeping Residual Rubber and not simply swapping Rubber -> Plastic for Plastic production. Interestingly, this means that you actually can make slightly more Plastic/min with this setup than Rubber, which I always thought was the opposite because I was being lazy and just symmetry swapping everything.

[oblique hollow]

i think it doesnt work due to fuel being a limiter

at the end, oil-to-plastic or oil-to-rubber should be a consistent 1:3

as long as residual rubber is used and converted to plastic or kept for rubber output that is

Yeah, as i thought
In the case of making plastic
Turning the Residual Rubber into plastic yields 2 plastic for 1 fuel
while with pure recycling loops, it yields 1 plastic for 1 fuel

in the case of rubber, you get some rubber directly which doesnt need to be recycled, but comparatively, the value is about half of that that plastic got out of residual rubber

so it has to make up for that by spending more fuel 1:1 to make rubber

equalizing the output between the 2 products in the end

[plain rivet]

in the end, isn't it always 1 oil goes to 3 (plastic or rubber in any ratio you want really, but 3 total)

[oblique hollow]

yes thats what i wrote above

[plain rivet]

yeah, sorry, trying to parse it. So you are disagreeing with "you can actually make more plastic" right?

[oblique hollow]

yea. its an equal part rubber or plastic, always 1:3 oil-to-product

i was just peering into the why

namely: it comes down to that plastic can tap into some efficiency by recycling residual rubber from resin while rubber can use the residual rubber directly

and the way the math works out there is that both benefit from that equally in some form

[versed violet]

But, will it be renamed? or some other 'lore' explanation for it made? It originally was named after the Catherina, who is going to be removed.

[oblique hollow]

we will have to wait and see is all

[versed violet]

But we hav to speculate! It is the only time to do so!

[tough pebble]

I don't think it's likely. If for no other reason than to avoid potential confusion among players.

[north monolith]

I think it's completely legit to have a mineral named after something we have no information about in the game. I had no idea that it was named after someone particular and it still sounded completely natural for me.

[tender gust]

A lot of elements on the periodic table are named after people you met

[sterile tangle]

is there like a number article specifically saying what will the max resource counts be after the 1.0 changes or do i have to calculate it myself?

so far i only found images of the node changes but not specific numbers

[median heath]

If you're trying to do it right now, you'd have to do it yourself.

However, the simplest answer is

[vapid gorge]

considering that your computer will melt before you will use teh whole world's supply of resources I'm not sure that matters much

[median heath]

"Currently max resources doesn't matter because no PC can handle max resources."

And they added more, so the future answer is:
"Max resources doesn't matter because no PC will be able to handle max resources."

Cobalt disrupting my flow 😭

[vapid gorge]

that's my job after all

[median heath]

You're like a Valve.

ValveOfDoom

[vapid gorge]

in that there's 4 of them in your heart?

I'm touched

[median heath]

In that you deserve not to be used by anyone.

Which is also touching if you take it correctly.

[vapid gorge]

that's how heart attacks happen! 😮

[sterile tangle]

Ok but if im not using exactly all nodes... is this still too much?

[vapid gorge]

if you have the toppest end pc and are minimal in obj you use... you'll probably still have a bit of a slide show on low graphics

[sterile tangle]

I mean... lightweight actor dealing would help with that first part... Ofc another solution is being happy with just half a stack of items per minute.

[vapid gorge]

ehhh, remember we're talking about that's the result of probably spending 6k+ usd on your pc.

I'd probably aim for half the final output

if you care about non stuttering and having the game look decent

[true junco]

99% of people on earth right now have no vlue what 99% of minerals are called let alone why. So def an acceptable premise... even if it would annoy the hell out of me personally. Lol

[true junco]

Ive wondered if max consumption is possible if we use the "worst" recipies for ratio of input to output. 😆

[versed violet]

If you listen to ada when scanning the sample, you will hear they decided to name it after the company ceo.

[north monolith]

I have only one playthrough and it was in the beginning when I was overwhelmed with the amount of info, so I missed something like that

[versed violet]

Happens. But it was part of lore that will have to be changed. Or perhaps they forget and we get weird discontinuity 😁

[orchid pond]

they could also have a different name that still can be abbreviated to "Cat-," change who Catherine is lore-wise, or just never mention it... lots of options that we just won't know for sure until the 10th

[hasty pelican]

Hey guys,
I’d to maximise the speed to finish tier 4.
Is there a calculator that takes energy needs into account?

I’ve used the calculator in the pinned messages, it tells me how much envergy I need, but not how to get there.

Any tips ?

[wind spade]

"How to get there"? Wdym by that?

[fringe pawn]

How much energy does it say you need? Divide that number by 75, make that many coal plants? Maybe round up to a unit of 8 coal plants?

[median heath]

Divide number by 75, make that many OC'd Bioburners 😉

[hasty pelican]

Well, for example, here I need 400 000 MW
That would require some nuclear centrals. Working how many are needed for this much energy is ok.

But to power So many centrals, I’m going to need to power a lot of buildings to make those centrals run.

This is where I’m struggling

[vapid gorge]

as in the factory world you're planning needs 400,000mw but you need to figure out how much nuclear you need including the cost of running the nuclear?

[sand epoch]

That doesn't seem to be all that hard to figure out... ?

[hasty pelican]

Yep, this is my issue

[vapid gorge]

1st - figure out the return %
or
2nd - just do max nuclear
or
3rd - realise your computer won't be able to handle a world needing 400,000mw to power

[hasty pelican]

What's the "real" max then?

[vapid gorge]

seriously, your computer won't be able to handle it

wdym 'real max' ?

[hasty pelican]

How much can pc's handle?

[vapid gorge]

depends on a few things

1. how good your rig is
2. what quality of graphics you're happy with
3. how much of a slide show you're happy to have your fps at

anything close to needing 400,000 is going to be a full resource process.
even if you have a good computer I wouldn't do more than half

cause I wouldn't want hideous graphics or stuttering frame rates

[hasty pelican]

So this would be reasonable then?
https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=xwbEf0X9ynNtK4gg6a0Y

[vapid gorge]

no? that's hte opposite of what is reasonable. it's close to max resource used

[median heath]

Your save.
You are the sole person who decides what is and is not reasonable.

[vapid gorge]

'reasonable in regards to how your computer will handle it'

even the best rigs won't. So it's up to you to figure it out.

[hasty pelican]

Cause I'm trying to get Phase 4 "fast".
But it's requiring A LOT

[vapid gorge]

phase 4 will be changing very shortly
and you'll spend more time making that than it would take doing half of that and finishing

[hasty pelican]

So just waiting for release at this point would be the best course of action?

[vapid gorge]

there's 3600 minutes in a day, so even if you're making 1 part per min it'll take a bit over 24hrs to fill up 4000 job

[vapid gorge]

up to you, I think most people are going to start a fresh game for the story since there will be issues

and finishing phase 4 isn't the end of the game, it's a sandbox

[proven minnow]

uhmm 😳 i may have to rethink it

[vapid gorge]

https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production

[proven minnow]

woah that was my 15 minutes of math in 30 seconds

[vapid gorge]

and it lets you swap recipes in and out to try things out

I recommend when selecting a new recipe you untick the old one so it forces the planner

[ruby nebula]

There is going to be a Story?
If so, where can I learn more about that?

[vapid gorge]

very little about it in anouncement vids and mostly in 1.0

[ruby nebula]

Oh, apparently there is a video addressing just the story/narative stuff. Thanks for the lead.

[wind spade]

@shut stone see #math-and-meta messagefor alt recipe choices

[versed violet]

Dumb question - is there an 'export to excel' button?
Can there be 'export to excel' button in future?

[wind spade]

for what? 🤔 Tools?

if Tools - what format would you want it to have?

[versed violet]

image 1 into image 2. With a pipe dream of fields actually using formulas, so you can tinker with the building counts and see how it affects balances.

[versed violet]

Do we know of any changes to default recipes that would affect a nuclear setup?
I know of encased beam and steering clear of it, assuming encased pipe will stay unchanged. Anything else I should avoid?
Just preparing my base nuclear setup for when 1.0 drops.

[river night]

they have mentioned very little recipe changes so far, only like .. 3 or 4 maybe, planning for the unknown is generally a bit pointless, just plan to be flexible for changes

[oblique hollow]

nothing really other than nuclear fuel unit will use rotors instead of beacons