math-and-meta

[median heath]

Full stability is achieved when things are full.

[turbid cedar]

Only time I've ever used exact splitting was in my coal power plant, when I needed all the machines to start running immediately and not have gaspy power for a bit

[buoyant tundra]

Sure, I was just thinking that everything that can’t go into the first machine (due to the low speed belt) will go to the next one, and so on. Thus, more machines would fill up in parallel instead of focusing on the first one 🤔

It seems like a rather small difference anyway 😅

[median heath]

Is it. Which why there is nothing wrong with using lower tiered belts to the side.

(I do it often)

[summer flare]

Belt balancing is when multiple belts, possibly at different rates, are split and merged to give multiple equal outputs, maybe not useful. Your situation is splitting a common resource output to match required inputs and is usually referred to as load balancing and is very useful.

[primal flicker]

If they are only using a manifold and relying on innate belt throughput behavior to balance it, then it is not load balancing.
Using a bunch of splitters and mergers to send each machine exactly what it requires would be input load balancing.

[vapid gorge]

You don’t need all coal power to start at once and even if you did you could have prefilled the machines

[tropic hawk]

The only time that it is 'needed' is maybe for radioactive materials, and even then, you can manifold it, its just gonna be a very spicy area to walk around in

[wind spade]

filling more machines at start means that more machines are processing the input, which means that less input is being "backed up"

see f.e.

red = mk5 side belts
blue = mk1 side belts

bottom is minutes, left is production

[languid python]

But they both end up the same

So does it really matter

[magic island]

when splitting onto a lower-speed belt, it's preferable to have a steady input. ie, if you split off an Mk1 belt from something higher, you want the source items to be coming through steadily enough that the splitter can constantly allocate 60/min to it

but manifold input belts are choppy, with items being pulled off at asynchronous intervals, creating unpredictable gaps the further along you go. as the source belts alternate between full/empty, the side belts alternate between getting something/nothing. so even if there's enough passing through on average to meet capacity, they may not actually receive that capacity until the system fully stabilizes

whereas splitting onto same-speed belts in manifolds means that any given branch has the capacity to take the entire source input if other branches are backed up

[wind spade]

once filled, yes. But mk5 side belts will get there faster

[wind spade]

that's not the reason mk1s are slower though

[buoyant tundra]

Interesting, thanks for sharing ^^ now I wonder how exactly you calculated these values 😅 guess I will look into this in more detail tomorrow 😂

this should also depend on the relative speed difference between the source and side belts, right? If I have a mk2 source belt, then there should be no point in using mk2 side belts. The splitter is giving me not more than 60 items/min anyway

[wind spade]

this is mostly just simulation running on code I wrote and then outputting values every 10 seconds or so

[buoyant tundra]

Yeah, I will probably try different manifold setups and different belt speeds. Mk5 belts are nice, but you need to unlock them first. I build a lot of manifolds with mk1 side belts long before I get to mk5 😅

[wind spade]

it's valid for pretty much all manifolds with slower side belts

at best it's equal to faster belts
any other case it's slower

the only case when slower side belts make the manifold fill faster is if the side belt is exactly the speed that machine needs (e.g. machines that need 60/min with mk1 belts), because then there's no filling time and all machines work immediately

[buoyant tundra]

True, I guess. It’s just fun to solve these things 😅 it would also be interesting to find the absolute time necessary to fill different manifolds with different length and belt speed

[wind spade]

like this? https://satisfactory.greeny.dev/machine-fill

(press the red button, ignore rest of the site)

[buoyant tundra]

I know, I know 😌 the fun part is to solve it yourself 😋

[wind spade]

the problem is that there's really no formula for it, and you have to simulate it 🤷‍♂️

[buoyant tundra]

That’s okay 😉

[wind spade]

well there were some attempts at making the formula, but it ended up being some horrible thing that would take longer to solve than for the manifold to fill

[buoyant tundra]

😂😂

[tropic hawk]

kinda wish the radiation tool here was up to date, love all the work you do!

[wind spade]

U2 values:
ore: 15
uCell: 7.5
NFR: 60
NWaste: 20

U8 values:
ore: 15
uCell: 0.5
UFR: 50
UWaste: 10
PFR: 250
PWaste: 200

you can use that to convert values, so f.e. if you're looking to know how much radiation does 1000 UWaste produce, you multiply it by it's U8 value (10, which means total is 10000), and then divide by some of the U2 values of any item (e.g. NWaste is 20, which results in 500, meaning that 1000 UWaste in U8 is equal to 500 NWaste in U2)

[median heath]

In that context, no.
But the question was about which stabilizes faster.

If you prefeed they are both equal.
So it truly doesn't matter from that methodology.

[north ocean]

I'm beginning to realize that no form of transporting goods is as fast or efficient as just running a long conveyor bus, is this the place where people smarter than me about the math and numbers involved would have an opinion on that?

I just tried trains for moving 6 pure iron nodes and the factory they are feeding can't run the Mk5 belts from the train depot at 780 ppm. I ended up pulling up the whole track and just used the floor tiles they were on for conveyors instead.

Even putting in storage buffers to account for the pause when transferring cargo that small delay in loading and unloading seems to mean that the resource will always come out slower than using just belts over trains.

Are drones any better?

[primal flicker]

Nothing can go faster than belts.
But other options can be better for your FPS and more fun. Plus, setting up a drone or truck is easier than running belts if the endpoints are far apart.

[north ocean]

For all the trouble I ran into sorting out the train path and block signals I needed to allow two bi-directional trains to share one track between two depots I feel like running the conveyor bus was simpler to do and less work overall. The drones I can see being easier than connecting two points but if they aren't at least as efficient as the belts they load and unload to I would probably still prefer the conveyor bus for how I design my factories.

[primal flicker]

This is why a lot of folks only build double tracks.

[north ocean]

I do think the trains are neat, I originally built a train line making my way to the iron nodes and that was great I had all the building resources I needed in the freight car and I just moved the train up the track until I got where I was going which spared me a lot of back and forth. But now I'm thinking that's the only valuable use case the trains have for me

[primal flicker]

I don't care for them. But for some people, the "value" is in having the trains, not how well they perform.

[swift whale]

what heavy modular frame recipe is the best?

[deft lichen]

there is no best, see #math-and-meta message

I personally use encased frames

[true junco]

There isnt one. in my opinion

Encased if you want to use a ton of concrete.

Flex if you want to offset concrete with rubber (and know how to use steel screws "properly")

Default.. well i dont see why anyone would use default. Since it uses both more steel and concrete than encased apparently.

[wind spade]

Fyi "conveyor bus" is something different than you think

A bus is if you have belts going through your factory, split from them to nearby machines and merge back products from those machines.

If you jave just a few belts transporting resources from A to B, you have stacked belts, not a bus

And for your question, one train car should in most cases be able to handle even more than full mk5 belt worth of throughput

[true junco]

Greeny: I suspect they were trying to get a pair of saturated mk5 belts thru one freight segment. Which we know is impossible.

@north ocean
There are known maximum thruputs for stations because of the loading/unloading lockout periods. Trains work fine if you are moving less than that per station. There are equations and graphs that show the thruput plotted over RTD (round trip duration) with a different curve and max transfer rate depending on the stack size of the item being transported.

Generally tho if you feed 1 belt of 780/min into 1 dock, then you will get 780/min out at the destination. Just put that 1 belt into an ISC then 2 belts into the station, and then 2 out from the destination into an ISC then one from there.

TLDR: You can always use more freight docks and freight cars to get your intended thruput.

[wind spade]

wdym "one freight segment"?

[true junco]

The buildable freight loading unloading segment of a train station.

[wind spade]

one platform?

[true junco]

Yes

[wind spade]

one platform can do more than one mk5 belt worth of throughput

[true junco]

You cannot move 1560/min.

[wind spade]

more than one mk5 belt worth

[true junco]

Like i said. Pair of saturated mk5s

[wind spade]

or in other words, more than 780

[wind spade]

which I said here

[true junco]

I think they were trying to move 2 saturated mk5s per platform.

[azure olive]

Just for me to understand, this is not working because of train driving speed and time for loading/unloading?

[wind spade]

because of the fact that the train station locks for 27 seconds when the train is docking

so for those 27 seconds, nothing can get in or out the platform

[azure olive]

Ok got it
Thanks

[north ocean]

This was the meta reply I was hoping for, although I'll take the terminology correction on board as well I guess.

Is there a spreadsheet somewhere with those throughput curves for round trip times?

I did have 3 depots with two full mk5 belts going into industrial storage containers, but if I understand your response I can get back up to two 780 belts after the train unloads if I spread those across more depots?

[wind spade]

there's a formula on wiki

https://satisfactory.wiki.gg/wiki/Tutorial:Train_throughput

but if you don't want to deal with that, easy option is usually just "one platform/car per belt"

(you still need the buffers - put industrial container in front of the platform, connect it with two belts to the platform and connect that one belt you want to transfer into the container - both for loading and unloading)

I personally don't see much reason to optimise it "close to max possible throughput", because then if your train gets stuck in traffic or something, it fails

[north ocean]

Ok so this page was helpful thank you, it still kind of confirms my assessment that pulling conveyor stacks is better for what I'm designing around. Trains are neat but I'm not willing to suffer the throughput loss even if it mean putting up with the tedium of long conveyor pulls

[wind spade]

what throughput loss?

trains do not lose you any throughput

it's just that one car/platform has smaller max throughput than two full belts

[oblique hollow]

they just have a throughput limit per platform, thats all

[wind spade]

but what you put in on one side should go to other side in the same amount, if you build it properly (add buffers as I said)

[north ocean]

While I understand what greeny's being pedantic about I mean I would prefer to endure the tedium of pulling long conveyor stacks for the sake of their simplicity vs what it would take to get the same throughput utilizing trains to be most clear

[oblique hollow]

if its pretty decent terrain you can just use a truck

[wind spade]

I mean it's just "put each belt into one platform with a buffer" and then you're only building one track (or two, if you plan to have more trains later)

[oblique hollow]

depending on the item type, you can have one truck being fed with multiple mk 5 belts from multiple stations and then drop off stuff at multiple stations

trucks dont have the same throughput limit as trains

done right, belt to truck is 100% the same throughput

[median heath]

Trucks are equal in terms of speed 🤷‍♂️

[tulip egret]

So thats why people like trains so much? Hm. Interesting.

[median heath]

People like trains more mainly for 2 reasons:

1. trains are fun and people just like trains.
2. people suck at driving, so rather than spend an hour learning to do it properly they just permanently swear off trucks and use only trains.

[tulip egret]

Fair. I like truck highways just for the look of it tbh

[wind spade]

trains have several advantages:

• tracks carry power with them
• they use power as fuel directly (easier to deliver than any solid fuel)
• once built infrastructure can be reused for other trains
• one train can carry insane amount of resources (having enough cars)
• they can easily serve as a people movers as well

[median heath]

I will never say that trains are bad.
Nor can it be stated they are better/worse.
They are different.

[mystic moon]

There is an argument to be made that drones are better than either trucks or trains

[vapid gorge]

cause they go 'whiiiir' through the sky obviously. No other logistic does that. Trumps everything

[languid python]

I recorded a truck route without crashing but the truck keeps crashing on autopilot

[vapid gorge]

it goes between the recorded points, drive slower to have them closer together and have a more accurate route

[median heath]

Also, using to clear the path is very helpful.

[tropic hawk]

As my username states, best is relative. you could use factory carts for transport as they need zero fuel. they are as inefficient as all get out, but it works.

[mystic moon]

As defined, best is objective. The word you're looking for is preferred

[tropic hawk]

Best is objective if there is criteria stated. if you say Best with no context, then it is relative.

[vapid gorge]

yeah best needs context

[tropic hawk]

if you are looking for something objective. opinions need no context

[mystic moon]

No. Best with no context implies that it is superior in every way.

[true junco]

I had a specific case where i was able to drive up a slope while recording but the autopilot couldnt. The autopilot doesnt like to floor it apparently.

[tropic hawk]

no, because there are factors that directly conflict with each other, therefore no recipe can satisfy all the requirements.

[true junco]

Best with no context, WOULD mean that. But that usually doesnt exist. (That and context is often implied irl so even then there is a context)

[fervent iris]

So I made a crazy turbofuel array and it's more efficient than I predicted... wondering whats going on

the array should only power 500 fuel gens

nothing overclocked

1200 sulfur perfect efficiency input

but i'm at 561 gens and counting

I just keep building more and they keep working

[median heath]

How much Turbo are you making in total?

[fervent iris]

2250/min

50 blenders at 100% efficiency

inputs plugged in at 105% to make sure no downtime

[median heath]

How long has the system been running more than 500?

[fervent iris]

a few hours at least

I left off last night at like 515

[median heath]

Mods? Multiplayer? Dedicated Server?

[fervent iris]

dead stock

i use a lot of storages

10-12 large fluid tanks in the array

but that's just a backup buffer

[median heath]

I am unsure whether you answered my question or not.

[fervent iris]

3X no to that, sorry

1 player, everything default

2250/4.5 = 500. Weird right?

[median heath]

Were the buffers full?

[fervent iris]

they fill up in about 5-10 mins and stay full

[median heath]

[fervent iris]

only thing I can think is that I accidentally overclocked a blender

but then my inputs would start failing

and I'd see an empty belt, which I do not

cant complain just oddddd

Will report the # where the fuel gens stop working lol

[fervent iris]

what is the best way to attach blender manifolds? I feel like my splitters and pipes arent efficient

meaning say 5 blenders on each side of a central aisle

[vapid gorge]

manifolds are manifolds. Really it's just layout though you probaly want to keep your pipes simple.

You could have the pipe loops drop from above and the belts below or on level?

[fervent iris]

yeah youre right I should be using multi-level, pipes above. smart

[vapid gorge]

I do pipes from below too but you have to be more diligent and careful with pipes like that

[vapid gorge]

you can also save belt space by doing sushi belts to feed them

[fervent iris]

oh yeah true, pipes below works

[vapid gorge]

if the recipe only needs 1 fluid 2 solid items you can feed it all with 1 belt and 1 pipe

[fervent iris]

smart splitters?

Whoa.

[vapid gorge]

that sort of thing should be done by planning each step together - so knowing what groups of machines are sending items to the next group and what clockings you need

[fervent iris]

oh definitely, no worries I'm getting quite adept at that

always building backwards from the final machine

[vapid gorge]

and it's fun feeding a manufacturer 4 items with 1 belt 😄

[fervent iris]

A lot of my manifolds involve maxing out belts so I havent tried this yet

but that is sooo satisfying, smart

[vapid gorge]

it can be really convenient - you just end up making more smaller manifolds. And it can work out really well if you plan it out well. Avoid high throughpput items like screws or use steel screws and send beams to a constructor that just feeds directly into hte manufacturer

it's also a bit of a work around where you might have 1 item type that needs a lot of throughput but the 3 other items kinda waste the space in possible throughput?

I've got 1 semi sushi set up with 3 items on one belt and another belt just does wire to them

[fervent iris]

yessss so smart

I have so many smaller setups where I shoulda done this 😦

the big turbofuel manifolds use a lot of fluids, so not much help there.

[vapid gorge]

it just depends how you like setting things up, a lot of people don't like getting into the nitty gritty of that much planning and that's also fair

[wind spade]

@twilit wing See #math-and-meta message for alt recipe choices

[fierce ruin]

Does anyone use the encased industrial pipe recipe?
seems like it could be handy seeing as more of them are made per ingot than beams

[wind spade]

yeah, it saves resources at the cost of more machines/space/power

[fierce ruin]

wait more machines?
I thought it would've been LESS since pipes are easier to make

well besides, I just lost it rip
I Think I just accidentally discovered how to reroll a hard drive

[wind spade]

but the EIBs themselves are made slower

in the end, it ends up being slightly more machines

[fierce ruin]

ahhhhh alright

[fierce ruin]

damn, all of these seem super handy

[wind spade]

see #math-and-meta message

[fierce ruin]

yeah you showed me before, thats what im using rn

went with caterium wire

[wind spade]

it's not like you lose the other two anyway

[fierce ruin]

got 4 more drives to try and get it with so

taking a break from factory building, stocked up on rebar and on an adventure rn collecting stuff for inhalers and hard drives

[vapid gorge]

imo the screw one is probably the least niche use. At least from my experience

[fierce ruin]

bruh the swamp ones are so bad

im running round here eating berries and they think I got 3 supercomputers or a quantum computer to open them lol 😐

5 superposition Oscillators
think im done exploring the swamp for hard drives lol

[oblique hollow]

Yeah swap exclusively has the super late unlocks

because the swamp is the most hostile biome

[fierce ruin]

icl its great for loot, im just running around stealing all the computers and batteries and shit, easy coupons

I'd keep the computers for my first train but I need to unlock the stuff to craft the computers with to actually get them, so...

[arctic willow]

doesn't help that ||the quantum computers and superposition oscillators are ficsmas calendar-only items and can't actually be crafted||

[fierce ruin]

lmao

[fierce ruin]

Change the name of this channel to meth and meta

[wind spade]

no

[primal flicker]

Ooh, imagine if that was a feature... What if you had to choose one to keep AND one to lose permanently...

[wind spade]

then rerolling would actually have a value

[true junco]

Then i would immediately start using mods if there was a mod that eliminated such a design change. 😆

[primal flicker]

Exactly.

[tropic hawk]

fun fact, if you have alts you don't like, just hit ESC, and it will give you the HDD back, and you can reroll it

[tropic hawk]

this is why you use SCIM to see what you need before you go on site

[wind spade]

picking one and getting another HDD in meantime is just better imo

[runic shoal]

Ok Frame of reference is 2,100 uranium ore pm 100 of that is used in alt. Fissle uranium making what's supposed to be a 5:1 for pellets and that's using 200 UWpm

[tropic hawk]

https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=pHNboZdynTdvOBk3eI0A
have fun.

[tropic hawk]

i mean true, but when two of your alts are for making coal from other stuff, and the other one is kind of useless to you, i would rather just reroll it

[runic shoal]

Out of supposedly 1600 leaving 1400 left and that is using the normal recipe with the same 5:1 into plutonium

[wind spade]

if you pick them, you remove them from the pool, increasing chance of "useful" recipe being there

[tropic hawk]

true. but im looking for specific alts and don't have a lot of spare HDDs. im just gonna leave it as this is what I am doing, and its not necessarily most optimal, but its my system

[tropic hawk]

the link i sent is a plan for a max 252 plant and making PFRs after that, so you can probably tweak it to represent your situation

[primal flicker]

I wish there was something practical to do with the extra drives...

[wind spade]

they could be driving a belt rollercoaster

[tropic hawk]

make mini pedastals and position them to be on them, try and do a mini build and flavor them as external hard drives, or whatever you dream of

[runic shoal]

I've tried that but since I don't know what amout of the other materials I need it adds them in and therfore clutter it to were I can't tell what's what

[tropic hawk]

so you don't like that a tool that tells you exactly what you need, and a general idea of where those items are going is telling you all that?

[tropic hawk]

if you want to just be told what to do, but don't want to actually spend time to see exactly what you need, then why are you playing this game in the first place?

[primal flicker]

So make manual adjustments.
Add PCCs for plutonium processing, and make a separate tab for the PCC factory, etc. I recommend making one just for oil products.

[runic shoal]

I'm just trying to figure out how many plutonium fuel rods I can get are I don't need to know how much concrete or how much steel I'll need is

[tropic hawk]

do you know how to read the output of the tool?

[primal flicker]

So you manually input the waste from your UFR and set PFR production to "Max"

And make sure to remove the uranium already in use.

[runic shoal]

That's the thing according to it making 50 UFR pm takes 2,0** some oddball amount of uranium when my number was an even 2k

[tropic hawk]

its making 50.4 UFRs as that is the max capable in the game

I sent you my nuclear build

its using the map max of 2100 Ur/min

[runic shoal]

So I'm trying to find an even number of uranium so that I can have an even number of waste/fissle according to wiki 5 waste and 5 uranium make 20 non fissle and it takes 25 waste and 100 non fissle to make 30 plutonium pellets which is a 5 non fissle to 1 pellets

[tropic hawk]

what do you define as an even number?

[runic shoal]

5×5=25 25×4=100 non fissle uranium

Which is 100 waste and 100 uranium

[primal flicker]

Don't mix numerology with engineering.
All numbers are happy numbers.

[runic shoal]

Clearly not mine mine are confused

Not happy

[primal flicker]

84.1394 is just as happy a number as 80.

[runic shoal]

No that is a number with an identity crisis it doesn't know if it's a 84 or a 85

[tropic hawk]

you want to know why the numbers in the map i sent are 'weird'? because 1: thats not including my map that has increased production lines to make the numbers more pretty (as i like whole machines divisible by two) and 2: thats not making nice numbers along the way, its maximizing production for the raw resources

[tropic hawk]

and it sounds like you need to go back to math class

[runic shoal]

No numbers just break my brain as you can clearly tell

Can't have no .28282828287347 no no has to be whole

[tropic hawk]

oh thats interesting, the server doesn't like me using discord markdown to make text bigger. imma have to tinker to figure out how they did that

[tropic hawk]

Then my one question for you: WHY ARE YOU PLAYING A GAME ABOUT NUMBERS AND MATH THEN?

[runic shoal]

Because A. It's fun B. Once I figure out the math it's simple from there

It's just sometimes my brain and the calculator don't see eye to eye

[tropic hawk]

im gonna stop helping you because if I try to do so, i swear im going to go crazy

[primal flicker]

I derived the equation for how many PFR/min you can make after producing X UFR/min.
And used a graphing calculator to find whole number intercepts. You can, too.

[runic shoal]

Newsbreak I'm already crazy

Cuz my math isn't mathing

Wait I think I figured it out to the calcmobile!

[tropic hawk]

<cheesy 80s music>

[oblique hollow]

people freaking out at the sight of numbers like 5.625 even though its just 45/8 in disguise

oooooh careful its 2.8125 uuuuuuh spooky

[median heath]

Even though you set the number, so you can make it whatever you want.

[primal flicker]

Oh no not 45/16 please anything but that aaaaaaaaahh

[true junco]

Almost all the decimals in this game are just all the "common fractions" that inches are divided into.
Ie, set of numbers A = B÷(2^C)
where B can be any whole number, and C can be 0, 1, 2, 3, or 4

[median heath]

45-81 rule.

[true junco]

Besides. The game doesnt actually do anything in fractions and decimals anyways.

All recipes require whole numbers of ingredients, and produce whole numbers of products every whole number of seconds.

The decimals only show up in the "per minute" values, and they are just a measurement of whats happening per minute. Not the actual things that are happening.

[median heath]

I remember when per min wasn't on the UI.

Better times... 😭

[tropic hawk]

mind posting it again? it is such a gem

[median heath]

Everyone above has read it or was involved in its creation though? 😭

[tropic hawk]

(i may have lost my notebook i wrote it down in)

[median heath]

In the search bar, type "the premise of the" and it pops right up.

[vapid gorge]

oh yeha the 81 40 ratio thing

[median heath]

45*

[vapid gorge]

close enough

[median heath]

Am very interested to see if it remains true in 1.0

[median heath]

I will never deal in "close enough."

[sand epoch]

How about in 'ish'?

[median heath]

Acceptable.

[ripe quarry]

I'm tempted to do away with residual recipes entirely and replace them with recycled only, just sinking all my polymer or exporting them to a dedicated factory. I've had polymer back up my factories twice now because of the rounding to 0.01/min

how bad of an idea is that? Or how have y'all approached HOR residue + residuals

[wind spade]

why tho? they work great together

residual rubber for kickstarting recycled loop

[ripe quarry]

just throw in a stack when building it. recycled is great, but residual is giving me a lot of trouble

[median heath]

Using Residual with Recycled is how the Recycled Loop has no byproduct.

[wind spade]

it gets rid of the resin byproduct

[ripe quarry]

and that's exactly the problem I'm having - because the math I'm running requires, for example, XX.XX5 per minute, I can only round up or round down

[wind spade]

or you can use exact number

[median heath]

45-81 rule

[ripe quarry]

the game will round for you

[wind spade]

it won't

[ripe quarry]

it won't?

[wind spade]

the rounded values are rounded just for your convenience, but it internally doesn't use them at all

game works on cycles, not per minute

[ripe quarry]

Aw hell. guess i should go reset my recipe %s then

[median heath]

I remember when per minute wasn't on the UI.

Better times...

[ripe quarry]

my one issue with satisfactory keeps coming back to feeling like i'm fighting the game to do what I want

[median heath]

Change what you want 😉

[wind spade]

maybe play the game how it is designed rather than trying to play it some weird way 🤷‍♂️

[ripe quarry]

Yes, how dare I design my HMF factory for exactly 2 manufactories at 100%

how weird of me

[wind spade]

you can tho

[median heath]

That's like saying "I'm frustrated that I can't play Witcher 3 like I play Call of Duty."

[wind spade]

game doesn't fight back if you do that

[ripe quarry]

sevrahn i'm just gonna ignore that you tried that hard to do mental gynmastics lol

if you actually think that's anything close to this then you can just move on

[median heath]

I can, I won't 🙂

[ripe quarry]

and sure greeny there might be a combination of recipes where i don't have this problem, but then i'm trying to fix a problem within the game - if the game says this recipe works for these products, then it should be able to do it

[median heath]

Because the analogy is perfect.

[wind spade]

all recipes work for every product in any amount, only limitation is world nodes

4.8435 is same kind of number as 8

don't be afraid of decimals

[ripe quarry]

of course - but as a player, I have no way of knowing that when I type in 3.1415926536 and it changes it to 3.14 that it's still tracking everything

[wind spade]

you do

[ripe quarry]

so in my mind there's no reason to ever type in more than 3.14

that's bad UI if they aren't doing for example 3.14...

[wind spade]

the UI clearly shows you per cycle values

[ripe quarry]

to show me that it knows there's more

nah those only show to the thousandth

[wind spade]

per cycle values

amount you get per cycle

[ripe quarry]

per cycle means nothing

[wind spade]

per cycle is how the game works

[ripe quarry]

cycle times are different between machines

that's the whole reason items back up

[wind spade]

that's why the cycle is shown on the machine

[median heath]

Per cycle means everything because it's the only thing the game actually cares about.

[ripe quarry]

per cycle means nothing because a closed loop cares about input and output

not in what chunk size those items are input and output

[deft lichen]

per-min values are always averages, except for belts

cycles cause momentary burts

[median heath]

You deciding to care about different things than what the game is hard-coded to care about is a you-issue.
Not the game's.

[primal flicker]

It does NOT know more than two digits of per/min rate. You can see that in the clock speed update.
It DOES know the clock speed to 1/10,000th if a percent.

[ripe quarry]

the game is the one that cares about max stack sizes @median heath

[wind spade]

how recipes work:

• every X seconds (recipe time), it takes Y amount of input and outputs Z amount of output

the fact that you can calculate rate/min and game shows you that is a different thing, nothing to do with actual production

[median heath]

Which have nothing to do with per minute values?

[ripe quarry]

ok sev i'm just done with you - you're arguing like a high schooler on a debate club who's using it to just try and get a feeling of winning than actually learn anything

green I agree entirely

[median heath]

Wow.

[ripe quarry]

but the game isn't designed around balancing cycle times

[median heath]

Cannot accept how the game functions so instead diverts to personal insults. 👍

[ripe quarry]

the game is designed around input and output to each machine

[wind spade]

that's not what I am saying

although we had that for pretty long time

[ripe quarry]

then tell me how i "should" be playing the game, cuz i've apparently been doing it wrong for like 2 years

[wind spade]

so it kinda was designed around balancing cycle times

[ripe quarry]

the entire idea of overclocking and underclocking is adjusting the cycle time to blance the average flow rate

in PER MINUTE metrics

[median heath]

Again, the game does not care about per minute in any respect.

[primal flicker]

Except that it didn't start with any per/min info in the UI

[wind spade]

or to adjust how often the machine outputs items 🤷‍♂️ you can look at it both ways

[ripe quarry]

sure, which is why i don't get your hold up on why per minute is an inherently useless thing to look at when designing a factory

[wind spade]

that's not what I said?

[ripe quarry]

.

[wind spade]

that wasn't about cycle times? that was just a generic statement that if a game fights back, it's usually a sign you're doing something weird and there's easier way

[ripe quarry]

which again, means i'm fighting the game to do what it wants me to do and not what I should be able to do mathematically

[median heath]

🤦‍♂️

[ripe quarry]

sandbox means you make tools and let the user decide how to use them. as long as all the rules are followed, there should be no problem. but in this case, the rule is buried behind unclear UI

that rule being "hey I'm actually tracking exactly what you said you wanted but I told you I was shortening it"

"I told you I was being imprecise but I'm actually not"

oh and becuase I just now found a way to word this, the game very much cares about per-minute. it's one of the intended interfaces between the value we both agree the game cares about (cycle time) and our desires for a clock %.

[median heath]

"The game cares about per minute, I am supporting this statement by declaring the very things that prove it does not care about per minute."

[ripe quarry]

the ENGINE doesn't care about per-minute

[wind spade]

• you take the amount you want (e.g. 2/min)
• you calculate how many buildings produce (e.g. if one machine makes 0.8/min, you need 2/0.8 = 2.5 machines)
• you calculate the input the machines need (e.g. if each machine needs 20, you multiply it by 2.5 to get 50, so you need 50 in total)
• you repeat this for the input, and then for input for that, etc etc., until you get to raw ores

number of machines is how many you build. If you get decimals it's fine. For example 2.845276 constructors means 2 @ 100% + 1 @ 84.5276%. If you get more than 6 decimals on the machine count, round up to 6 decimals (because game can do up to 4 decimals of clock speed). That makes the machine starve once in like 50 hours for a second or two, but that's hardly a problem. Or you can use some specifically crafted numbers to evade 7+ decimals in machine counts, known as 45-81 rule (but again, most people don't bother with this).

[ripe quarry]

I agree with you on every single point. MY issue is when you put in 84.5276 and the game turns around and shows you 84.53, you as a player have no reason to believe that it is actually tracking those extra digits

[wind spade]

and you have no reason to believe that it's discarding them either

so you turn to wiki or community and ask

game is in early access and not as polished as it may be in the future

[ripe quarry]

????????

in what world is changing a value when it's echo'd back not presumed to be a changed value

if the UI returned, in our above example, 10 as a number, you'd presume that to be different, right?

[wind spade]

you don't really change X/min anywhere, so idk where it "echoes it back"

[ripe quarry]

the UI literally says "target production rate ______ per minute"

[wind spade]

the only thing you change on machines is clock speed %

[ripe quarry]

on the low level yes

[primal flicker]

If you put 84.5276 parts per minute, the game rounds it to 84.53 and displays the clock speed accordingly.

If you put the clock speed at 84.5276% it will stay exactly that.

[ripe quarry]

on the high level, no

[wind spade]

on the high level, yes

[ripe quarry]

no. both values can be changed. ultimately they're both used to calculate a clock %, but I can change the target production rate instead

[primal flicker]

Do. Not. Manually. Enter. Target production rate.

[ripe quarry]

then don't let me

[wind spade]

if you put in items per minute, it calculates clock speed, puts that calculated (and rounded) clock speed into the machine, and then calculates per minute production again from it to show you.

If you put 20/min in the field, you may get something different than 20/min

[primal flicker]

TPR is always truncated to 2 decimals.

And THEN it calculates clock speed.

[median heath]

Then talk to the legions of players who bitched about not having it until they finally added the box so they could shut up and feel better about themselves even though the game doesn't care about that box at all?

[ripe quarry]

and now we're getting to the core of the problem. the game is giving me two apparently equally viable options, and one of them is changing my value while the other is apparently perfectly precise

[median heath]

Sometimes you do things just to shut the playerbase up 🤷‍♂️

[ripe quarry]

but I have no idea of knowing that 1 that's even a thing or 2 which one to trust

[wind spade]

again, if you have no idea about something, maybe consult wiki or community?

[ripe quarry]

why would I have no idea about it? again, when two things are presented as equivalent, why would I assume they aren't?

[wind spade]

why would you assume they are?

[ripe quarry]

because it's facially the obvious interpretation

[wind spade]

like f.e. minecraft as a sandbox has almost no information about anything and would be pretty hard to play without wiki

[ripe quarry]

not really

it's quite easy. there's minimal mechanics

and they don't depend on riding a knife's edge

[wind spade]

yeah good luck figuring out quazi connectivity without wiki

[ripe quarry]

that's a fair point, lemme think

quazi connectivity is something common enough that the average player will run into it as a problem, and they can generally get around it by simply making their build larger. I can see that as paralleling to here, but the fix is basically "change recipes" or "sink the excess" which the latter is probably going to be my approach and it'll work just fine, so ultimately this is pretty moot

[wind spade]

was just one random example out of like 100000

[ripe quarry]

ehhhhh

most don't cause the problems quasi-connectivity do

unless you just mean indirect power

[wind spade]

minecraft doesn't give you info about anything, many things you figure out yourself, many you don't and have to turn to wiki

[ripe quarry]

yeah and figuring out for yourself is very different from being presented with false information

[wind spade]

which you could easily figure out yourself by doing the calculations manually

[ripe quarry]

again, that's not the problem

[wind spade]

checking the recipe speed and per cycle values, seeing it doesn't fit, so something is wrong, one of the two displays

[ripe quarry]

the problem is that apparently the per-minute number is treated differently than the clock % number

[wind spade]

it is, because it was added later as a quick patch because people wanted it there

[ripe quarry]

and why would I know that

[primal flicker]

You know that now. Why would you keep acting like it's someone else's fault you were inconvenienced by being ignorant of it?

[wind spade]

if you play any game with assumptions that any of your "I think it works like this" is always correct, then you're gonna get burned like this a lot

[ripe quarry]

jackie chan has a famous quote that feels relevant:

Whatever you do, do the best you can, because the film live forever. "No, because, you know, that day raining and the actor don't have time". I said "Would you go to every theater to tell the audience?" No! The audience sit in the theater -- "good movie", "bad movie". That's all.

good UI, bad UI, that's all

[wind spade]

early access game, that's all

[ripe quarry]

and after it's released?

[wind spade]

then check the UI at that point 🤷‍♂️

[primal flicker]

Maybe they'll remove the /min text input.

Nah, they won't.

[wind spade]

or better - make a thread on QA site to let devs know that you have issues with UI and suggest how they could make it better. Don't cry here where they don't read

that's like the whole point of early access - you get the incomplete game and you get to suggest new stuff or fixes

[ripe quarry]

if you use any computer program WITHOUT the assumption that "this number is showing me X idea which tells me the game thinks X idea" then I legitimately have no idea how in the world you read words on a digital screen because you don't know if they're the same as what I typed in

[ripe quarry]

the game's like 95% done - this has been in here since... what, update 6? 5?

[wind spade]

it's not lol

[primal flicker]

I bet we keep getting updates after 1.0
For a while
Mix of polish and bugfixes plus dlc

[wind spade]

since update 4 (or 5? idk) there has been a dedicated part of the team that were working on features that we haven't seen yet. If you want to tell me that two years of work will result to only 5% of game, then idk what to say

[median heath]

(This is the root of why I refer to the time before they added ppm to the UI as "better times")

[ripe quarry]

that's news to me - in Snutt's roadmap video he said there was a branch but not an entire dedicated group

[primal flicker]

People complaining about having to do math in a game about math?

[wind spade]

well somebody worked on that branch 🤷‍♂️

"dedicated" may not mean the same people at all times, but there were people working on it

[median heath]

Game giving you false hope about how things work instead of forcing you to learn how they actually work.

[ripe quarry]

there's no indication of how much is on it, so why are you assuming it has dedicated people instead of tickets that the normal devs do

[ripe quarry]

that's generally what the word "dedicated" means...

oh crap I assumed it meant the same thing here as it does elsewhere. that's on me

[wind spade]

sorry for not being native english speaker, will never happen again

[primal flicker]

IDK I thought the answer was really obvious the first time I put a rate in and got a clock speed of 83.1667 instead of 83.3333

[ripe quarry]

live and learn /shrug

[median heath]

Deductive reasoning is not a skill everyone posesses.

[ripe quarry]

honestly if it means anything you're fluent enough that I held you to the standard ofa a native speaker lol

I'm not even smart enough to speak a second language so I can't give you crap beyond what I already did

[wind spade]

written text standards are pretty low

especially on things like discord

[ripe quarry]

fair

the power of google translate compels you!

😆

[wind spade]

yeah google translate is crap at my language so 🤷‍♂️

[median heath]

Bing translate though 😉

[ripe quarry]

oh crap probably too nsfw

sorry

[median heath]

Bing has never led me astray 🤷‍♂️

[primal flicker]

What language?

[wind spade]

czech

[median heath]

YOU BETTER CZECH YOURSELF BEFORE YOU WZECH YOURSELF

[ripe quarry]

I tried it twice and it completely missed the context of what I was going for so I joined in on the memes of it

[primal flicker]

I don't know a lick of it. But I like watching this YouTuber series about Prague and how to visit without getting scammed.

If that counts for anything 😂

[wind spade]

honestly if you're worried about getting scammed, evade buying anything in centre of prague

[primal flicker]

Seems like it.

[wind spade]

the costs there are just inflated because tourists do not know about how much should things cost

since our costs are generally pretty cheap compared to e.g. EU countries, they can charge similar costs as in germany or even more and get away with it because tourists will pay it without thinking too much about it

and then you go 15 minutes away from center to some side street and have 3 times cheaper lunch with better quality

[sharp lion]

Honest guide!

[wind spade]

(I know this is offtopic, last msg, if you want more, ping me in #off-topic-general ) but I personally like Czechia as a whole and if you want to come, I could show you around lol 😄

[ripe quarry]

I think ultimately, my lesson learned here is to stop underclocking. Let the machines starve and self-balance. clear out any excess secondaries during a factory's warm-up, then let it go

have a few batteries and lean on duty cycles to balance my average power consumption

[wind spade]

um, that's not what I've suggested, but 🤷‍♂️

[ripe quarry]

I didn't say it was

[wind spade]

what's wrong with the way I suggested then? 🤔

[ripe quarry]

you mean set the clock % directly?

[wind spade]

yeah, since that's based on the machine count you have anyway

[ripe quarry]

because that's making the exact same assumption that I incorrectly made about parts per minute - that the value you put in is the value that matters. and it doesn't. the thing that matters is resource availability and output buffer availability

[wind spade]

(talking about this apporach)

clock speed matters tho

[ripe quarry]

so if I lean on that, which is a valid assumption to lean on, then I'm guaranteed to have my flow be balanced

sure it matters, but we agreed that's not what the game operates on

[wind spade]

no

[ripe quarry]

it operates on cycle time. and i can't set the cycle time.

[wind spade]

which is a function of clock speed

[ripe quarry]

and items per minute

but we agreed items per minute is not a valid control knob

[wind spade]

no, that's function of cycle time and recipe

game calculations go this way:

• take clock speed
• multiply it with recipe time
• get cycle length

you can't change recipe time, but you can change clock speed, hence you can change cycle length

[ripe quarry]

with the assumption that there's no pre-calculation to the clock speed between steps 1 and 2

[wind spade]

there isn't

[ripe quarry]

which is the assumption I made about items per minute, because I thought it was doing exactly that with items per minute

[wind spade]

game saves clock speed and recipe for each machine, nothing else (well things like position, items inside, etc., but you know what I'm talking about)

[ripe quarry]

but if that's the case, then cycle time doesn't exist anywhere

[wind spade]

recipe

[ripe quarry]

no current cycle time

[wind spade]

recipe has duration

[ripe quarry]

like if a recipe has a 4s duration and a 50% clock, 2s exists nowhere

[wind spade]

like current progress on current cycle? that gets saved as well obviously

[ripe quarry]

the game only tracks 4s and 50%

[wind spade]

may be in RAM 🤷‍♂️

[ripe quarry]

that's not what was said to me earlier, but ultimately, the fact that this is even having to be discussed means it's not a safe assumption

the only safe assumption is 1) items are present to start the recipe and 2) there is room in the output buffer to complete the recipe

etc

[wind spade]

I mean if you want to be exact, you'd also have to track if the machine is running or not for those shutodwn and startup animations and delays

obviously I'm simplifying things to just the relevant parts

which is: changing clock speed is the most accurate you can get to changing "average input/output per minute"

[ripe quarry]

ah it was a sev comment

[ripe quarry]

sure, but again, that's only becuase you already know it is

that approach doesn't even sidestep the assumptions I would be leaning on by starving machines

and the only cost to starving machines is a wonkier power graph

[wind spade]

which gets us again back to "game can't show you all info" and "some info can only be gathered from wiki/community"

and "if you feel like this could be improved and know how, please make a QA site post"

[ripe quarry]

and it gets ME back to "the game is showing you incorrect info, so screw you for not knowing that it was wrong, trusting it was right, and not asking someone who knows already that it's wrong"

i'm doing so rn lol

trying to boil it down

[wind spade]

the info is technically correct, just rounded. Practically "items/min" don't exist in the exact form anyway, it's just aproximation that you get close to over time

I personally think that for most cases the info is enough and once you start doing a lot of math, you figure yourself pretty quickly that the info is rounded (it's possible to figure it out just from one machine's UI 🤷‍♂️ )

[ripe quarry]

I have a silly example for you that shows the game being inconsistent in the way I mentioned greeny

but it demonstrates what you were saying so it's not to show you as wrong or anything

[true junco]

Fun times in M&M today i see. 😆

[ripe quarry]

heavy encased frames is 2.813 items per minute at 100%. if you set the target production rate (which again we said not to do) to 2.813, the clock will not to go 100%, but to 99.9111% and the target rate will be 2.81

to reiterate, setting the items per minute to 100% does not set the clock to 100%.

[wind spade]

fun fact, it's 2.8125

[ripe quarry]

EVEN WORSE LOL

[median heath]

It's 3 every 64s

[wind spade]

you can use e.g. my tool to see accurate numbers 😛 https://www.satisfactorytools.com/codex/items/heavy-modular-frame

[median heath]

3/64*60 = 2.8125

[true junco]

Why? Its just 2 13/16

[median heath]

Which is again proof that the per minute shit on the UI is just there to make you feel better about yourself.

What the game cares about is 3 every 64s.

[ripe quarry]

I guarantee you that it doesn't. it actually cares about 3 every X instants, where the net result is 3 every 64s

[median heath]

...

[ripe quarry]

you tried to do that BS on me earlier

[median heath]

Believe what you will.

[ripe quarry]

😉

[ripe quarry]

unfortunately, that's what got me into this mess 😦

[true junco]

All machines only ever deal in whole numbers of items consumed and produced per cycle. And all recipes take a while number of seconds to complete per cycle. All we can do is adjust that rate with clocking and clocking is restricted to increments of 1 ten-thousand of a percent.

[median heath]

3 per cycle.
64s cycle time.
If you change the clock speed to 50%, you now have a 32s cycle time.
Still 3 per cycle.

Cycle times and clocks speeds are what matter.
Per minute is irrelevant.

[ripe quarry]

I let it mix recipes and that's where this thousandth precision issue came up

[median heath]

There is no "net result."
Cycles either happen or they do not.

[wind spade]

tools should be precise enough to use the numbers in the game without issues 🤔

[ripe quarry]

the game doesn't calculate things every second. it calculates probably more often than the frame rate of the game

[wind spade]

it calculates % of current cycle

[ripe quarry]

https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=FLJZDmp3qJNe3krOCnud
I backed up polymer at the residual plastic refinery because I was, again incorrectly, inputting items per minute and not clock%

[wind spade]

tip: tools show you the clock speeds when you hover over them 🙂

[ripe quarry]

sorry backed up polymer at the crude oil refineries which starved the residual rubber

[ripe quarry]

yeah i know that NOW lol

remember i know more now than I did when I built this 2 weeks ago. it just now shut down

for the second time

[true junco]

Its not BS. its EXACTLY what the game actually does. Heavy encased frames takes 64 seconds and then the items in the input and output buffers increment by the exact whole number of items the recipe says.

[ripe quarry]

the game doesn't calculate things in 64 second increments. that's the BS joke I was referring to. the game has no notion of "64 seconds" but some time increment, probably milliseconds, that it knows it can add a bunch up to to get 64 seconds

just like the game has no notion of "items per minute" but it knows it can calculate a clock% from that

I was being intentionally obtuse when I said that

[wind spade]

I mean you can go further and further with that and end at "computer has no notion of the game it just does stuff with electric pulses"

(or continue even further to atom level)

but for useful discussion, saying "game counts in recipe cycles" is good enough

[true junco]

Ah, so instead of getting along you want the convo to be unconstructive. Got it.

[ripe quarry]

Sounds like you should learn about this thing called "irony" and this other thing called "rhetoric" and maybe jf you're feeling frisky, "a "joke" instead of getting upset about a discussion you came in halfway on and tried to get snarky about

[ripe quarry]

But why is "the game works in items per minute" NOT good enough? This is the hair splitting we've been talking about.

They're both derivative values

The issue is merely precision

[wind spade]

because IPM is derived of the cycle

[ripe quarry]

And the cycle is derived of the instant

[wind spade]

not relevant to #math-and-meta

[languid python]

O right I though this was #satisfactory

Woops

[median heath]

One is something the game actually tracks (whether a cycle completed or not).
The other is something players injected into the game because they are too used to how other factory games work.

[wind spade]

just to be clear:
it's completely fine to use IPM (and majority of people do)

I'm just talking about what info you read from UI. In machine UI, the clock speed % and recipe time are exact values. Anything other is derived and rounded. So for the purpose of reading stuff from game UI, cycle time is a better choice

For the purpose of calculation, feel free to use IPM (it's generally easier), but beware of where you get the values from

[languid python]

What's IPM

[wind spade]

items per minute

[languid python]

Oh

[ripe quarry]

Hahaha now we get to the real fun stuff. "Exact value" isn't exact, because it's data stored in a variable. There's always a precision limit. (I don't expect us to debate that out but it came up when I was drafting my Q&A submission)

(Before I had to bail to wake my kids from nap)

[median heath]

#off-topic-tech
#off-topic-general
👍

[ripe quarry]

#math-and-meta 👍

[median heath]

You're not discussing Satis anymore with that rabbit trail.
You're purely talking computer science.

[ripe quarry]

Maybe I don't understand what the word math means

[wind spade]

given that both values are within precision, they are exact

[true junco]

Blocked another waste of time.

Lol

[ripe quarry]

Which gets us right back to IPM having the exact same issue. Provided your input is within precision, it's exact

Imagine having to announce to the world you're blocking someone, as if we care

[median heath]

The case study of just how round circular logic can be.

[ripe quarry]

Bingo!

[wind spade]

cycle time is always in seconds (integer, so 100% precise)
clock speed % is rounded to 4 decimals, so 100% precise to those 4 decimals given floats have usually like 8 digits of precision

[ripe quarry]

Doesn't the game handle common fractions nicely like 1/3?

[wind spade]

IPM is precise if calculated from the exact values, not if you read it from machine UI

which is why I posted the message above - #math-and-meta message

[median heath]

I don't know how many other ways you have loaded up to explain the exact same concept.
But let me know if they eventually get it 👍

[wind spade]

there's no 1/3 in clock speed or cycle time

[ripe quarry]

Ehhhh I think maybe you're right but only by a technicality

By everything rounding in the way it should when you truncate values

[wind spade]

cycle time is integer
clock speed is float with 4 digits of precision max

neither of those can have 1/3 in them

(and yes, I know computer can't do 1/3 exactly, so technically nothing can have 1/3 in it)

[ripe quarry]

So computers can do 1/3 but only by assuming that if you get close enough, means 1/3 similar to the hard coding of "infinity" in floats

I doubt satisfactory is doing that, but for all intents and purposes, the player is supposed to think it does, because 1/3 truncated to approximately 1/3 then multiplied by 3 will round back to 1

[median heath]

🤦‍♂️

[wind spade]

but again, you're not counting with 1/3 anywhere

[ripe quarry]

And none of us have any way of knowing that. 33.3333% with a displayed value of 4 when the base is 12 tells me 1/3

[wind spade]

all cycle times in the game are integers
all possible clock speeds have max 4 digits of precision

any calculation involves these two numbers

[ripe quarry]

You keep thinking I'm disagreeing with you. Stop it lol

I'm agreeing with your base assumptions

[wind spade]

I have a way of knowing that because that's how the game works. From code persective

[ripe quarry]

Great, then write up the code for the end users so we know too :p

[wind spade]

what

both clock speed and cycle time is shown exactly

there's no need to do any code

[ripe quarry]

But ipm is not shown exactly, because you know it isn't

Insert sev's circular logic joke

[wind spade]

which we've cleared like 3 hours back, why are you bringing it up again?

(and again, you can prove ipm isn't shown exactly by just messing with the clock speed slider/input)

[median heath]

It's not a joke.
You keep circling.

[ripe quarry]

Because my whole point has been UI clarity and how the burden is on the user to know that they should trust this part of the ui but not that part by way of the game being early access and there being a discord of people who have looked at the code to translate the game into real world rules

[median heath]

Game does not care about IPM.
This isn't a difficult concept to grasp.

[ripe quarry]

Game does not care about 64 seconds either

This isn't a difficult concept to grasp

[median heath]

Sigh...

[wind spade]

in many parts of the UI, game only shows cycle, input and output
IPM is shown in just a few parts

[median heath]

Willful ignorance with no intent of self-evaluation.
+1 to the mute list.

[ripe quarry]

Both are derivative values. That's my point. Ipm is merely a lower resolution derived value

Again, imagine anyone caring about your block list

[wind spade]

they are not, since cycle + clock speed are saved

[ripe quarry]

This isn't twitter

[ripe quarry]

BASE clock is saved

[wind spade]

there's only one clock

[ripe quarry]

Sorry base cycle

[wind spade]

well no, base cycle is part of recipe

[ripe quarry]

There's no point in saving both the cycle and the clock

That would be redundant

[wind spade]

there isn't.
that's why what is saved is "recipe" and "clock"

[ripe quarry]

Oh I misread what you were saying. I thought you were saying the game tracks the current cycle, not the base cycle

You just said cycle and clock, not recipe and clock

Thats my bad

[wind spade]

ignoring the fact that game saves current progress of cycle and other stuff, the two important things for our case is "what recipe is set" and "what clock speed is set"

[ripe quarry]

Yeah ignoring that stuff

[wind spade]

so how is 64 seconds derived, if it's litearlly read from the recipe?

[vapid gorge]

@wind spade , pls, either troll or someone so deep into themselves they cannot be reasoned with.

[wind spade]

friday night, nothing to do 🤷‍♂️

also listening to this new banger album in meantime

[median heath]

Work on the next tools update 😉

[vapid gorge]

even the blocked message msg is getting annoying xD

[wind spade]

I'm leaving tomorrow morning, so I don't want to start anything that would take more than like a hour

[vapid gorge]

fair

[ripe quarry]

Because 64 seconds is a derived value from the actual time unit, but because it's easier for the devs to work with (!!!) they store it as 64s

[median heath]

Who said you could leave?

[wind spade]

actual time unit the game uses is seconds though

[wind spade]

tickets to a ball we bought

[ripe quarry]

Does it really do floating point of seconds?

That'd be... unusual.

[wind spade]

yes, like any game, delta time

[median heath]

(Also entirely possible 64 is the default value set in the data table for this recipe, meaning it is derived from nothing)

[wind spade]

see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_timing

[median heath]

How elegant.

[wind spade]

it is 🙂

[median heath]

Data tables are fun. 😁

Not as fun as napping though, which I am about to do. Enjoy your evening.

[ripe quarry]

I lost track of my train of thought while reading that cuz i got jumped on by a toddler, but it's clear the dogpile is here so I'll stop and chat with you next time greeny. 😄 have a good ball!

Ty for always remaining respectful when it's very easy to insult others while hiding behind a keyboard. Good to know there are still adults around.

[thorn trail]

Welp, I for one am glad this discussion happened as I've now learned not to enter the IPM field in the machine UI but change the clock speed instead. Thanks all!

And I agree with ERRORMONSTER that it would appear to most people that changing either field should give the same result/accuracy. That certainly was the case for me.

[median heath]

(again, things were better when the IPM field didn't exist)

[thorn trail]

Especially since when I rely on Satisfactory Tools calculator, where you input the IPM you want... then it would seem to me that you can just put the same IPM values in the game as well.

[median heath]

To be fair, Tools also lies to you.

Example:

[thorn trail]

Yes, as I said in my previous message. 🙂

[oblique hollow]

In light of another recent test:
If you have a mk 2 input manifold at 600, use a mk 2 pump at the feed input. Even if the manifold is absolutely flat.
On an output manifold, having the mk 2 somewhere in the middle is what seems to work

[median heath]

You're saying having the pump negates the need for looping?

[oblique hollow]

Circumstantially, yes

[median heath]

Has to be a mk2?

[oblique hollow]

yes

Mk 1 too weak

[median heath]

Odd.

Fluid testing in 1.0 will be interesting.

[oblique hollow]

Even with looping mk 2 can help

[median heath]

Will you finally accept VIPs if they still work in 1,0?

[oblique hollow]

No, but i wont erradicate them from the manual

[median heath]

😭

They just want you to let them be who they are.

[oblique hollow]

I dont like em but that doesnt mean they should go undocumented

[frosty owl]

I don't think it's such a big deal that it's worth noticing
As in:

• if you don't care about wether a machine will produce one extra or one fewer item than expected every few million cycles or so, it doesn't matter which field you use;
• if you care about such precision, you're likely to know enough math to know that (eg:) 10/min x 33.3333% won't be exactly 1/3 of 10 but rather 3.3333/min as shown in the output/min field (it doesn't even show as many decimals as the calculation would lead to!)

[wind spade]

That isn't a lie

[wind spade]

Tools give you the clock speed when you hover over the node

[median heath]

You can't get 20.
It isn't possible.

As Ven just pointed out, it's close enough that no one really cares. (Which is why it is simpler for Tools to just say 20 instead of 19.99998 or 20.00001).

[wind spade]

You can. By limiting the machine input

[junior slate]

pretty sure if there's a recurring decimal there every number after that is going to be out by a really small margin

[frosty owl]

Grumbles about uneven power draw

[wind spade]

You are talking about how much the machine makes if it works at 100% capacity. Tools give you solution with minimal possible downtime to achieve 20 exactly

[wind spade]

go use 45/81 rule then

[median heath]

Indeed.

[wind spade]

The point is that tools do not claim "if you clock to this, you make 20 exactly", but "because you're inputting only 20, you are only making 20"

[wind spade]

See above

[junior slate]

makes sense

[alpine turret]

Is about 50 batteries a minute enough to bring all uranium in the world to dune desert?

[oblique hollow]

theres only 2100 which is barely 5 mk 4 conveyors

you can do that with 5 or 4 drone ports

[alpine turret]

So you are saying it is enough?

[oblique hollow]

definitely

[viral ravine]

Too much*

[oblique hollow]

25 might already be more than enough

but 50 is good safety

[alpine turret]

i had some spare resources and satisfactory tools told me i can do about 50.4 batteries a min

[oblique hollow]

just do 50 and if theres excess batteries: who cares

[swift whale]

i want to make a 40 per minute computer factory. but having a tough time deciding which circuit board recipe

ive got quartz and caterium at equal distance. but the quartz one just seems easier + 1 row of machines less

[oblique hollow]

both are about equal

ive done factories using both and it doesn matter really, they are both a pain in their own way

[median heath]

Equality in Satis?
Freedom of choice?
Never that...

[swift whale]

but both are good right

[deft lichen]

well, if you match it with the computer alts, you can import either a lot of caterium or a lot of quartz @swift whale

[oblique hollow]

yes, both are good

[swift whale]

normally 1 recipe is just totally superior. but for this one its a tough pic

[oblique hollow]

there rarely ever is a "bad recipe"

idk how you define superior but every recipe offers a trade

[median heath]

Wait what?

[oblique hollow]

i tend to use Caterium Circuit board when i do caterium computers

cause i dont like mixing up that many resources

[median heath]

Ct Comp + Electrode CB 💛

[oblique hollow]

Electrode? thats a new one

oh wait, rubber

[median heath]

Highly under-rated.

Allows you to focus all of your Ct just into the Comps.

[oblique hollow]

I know its just oil but isnt the price in oil quite steep, relatively speaking?

ive used that recipe once but it wasnt a very serious factory

[median heath]

Everything is a tradeoff. 😉

[oblique hollow]

ik

[median heath]

That said I'm fairly certain it will be adjusted in 1.0

[oblique hollow]

I cant really pick electrode CB until i got most of the recycling recipes

[swift whale]

the crystal oscillitor recipe looks very intensive tbh

[oblique hollow]

the oil cost is a bit too painful without recycled for me to use Electrode CB

[median heath]

Fair.

[oblique hollow]

not that much

you need a manufacturer either way

if its not for computers its for the oscillators

[median heath]

Even without. Base Rubber gives you HOR to make Coke.

[oblique hollow]

yeah but at an inconvenient relative ratio

[median heath]

Ratio smatio.

I still do Ct CB + Crystal Comp almost always.
But El CB + Ct Comp is slept on imo.

[oblique hollow]

oh wait

it uses half the coke

you get from the HOR of the rubber recipe

i never noticed

[median heath]

Combine with HOR alt + Residual Rubber and you're cooking.

(Can't remember if HOR Alt or Poly Resin alt was the one I used)

[oblique hollow]

30 crude to 3.333/min CB
aka 90 Cude/min to 10/min CB

[median heath]

Aye.

Makes a pure 540 = 60

[oblique hollow]

oof, that would need 945 oil in my 15/min computer factory

[median heath]

Or you could turn the Islands into a 200/min.

[oblique hollow]

and that 945 is just the rubber for E CB

[median heath]

The fact you can make 45 Comp/min without oil on Speedrunner's is just.. fun.

[oblique hollow]

honestly the polymer resin alt might be the better choice if you dont use recycling if you wanna do ECB

65 Rubber + 60 Coke

..... or HOR alt + Poly....

hold on, lemme calc something real quick

HOR + Poly alt = 150/min Resin and 60/min HOR
which is 75 Rubber and 180/min coke

enough for a fully overclocked ECB assembler

plus some more coke to spare (67.5/min)

so 90 Crude to 12.5/min CB

25% efficiency gain

compared to using just the Rubber Recipe

[median heath]

How much oil to HOR and how much to Poly?

[oblique hollow]

30 and 60

1 refinery each

[median heath]

Nice.

[oblique hollow]

i never noticed how both recipes compliment each others numbers

HOR alt turns Poly's 130 to 150 Resin

and HOR alt bumps total HOR up from 20 to 60

[median heath]

Hey, there's been plenty of times I find gems in recipes when I go over them another time all these years later.

[oblique hollow]

i still think the oil cost for poly is way too high for what it offers

[median heath]

We'll see what 1.0 changes.

[oblique hollow]

what to do with 22.5 HOR to spare

[median heath]

Like Fluid Trains were agreed upon to never, ever be used until last year when I checked the math again and realized they are better than Freight.

[oblique hollow]

could do a 50% overclocked Coated Cable Refinery

or just make Fuel or something idk

[deft lichen]

I assumed we got stuck with the idea back when their capacity was off (50 and 500)

[median heath]

Aye.

That's what I'm getting at.
We get stuck with things. And when we reevaluate, we find stuff like the above concerning HOR + Poly.

[oblique hollow]

in what circumstance again?

[deft lichen]

I mean I'm still stuck underclocking 😛

[median heath]

They have higher throughput.

[oblique hollow]

due to the canister loops?

[median heath]

The only circumstance where Freight wins is if you're not looping cans.
If you're just creating on one end and destroying on the other, for example.

[oblique hollow]

gas still wins out i guess?
Drones exist, i know

[median heath]

Always package gas, yeah. 4x compression ratio OP.

[oblique hollow]

Buffers not keeping throughput up doesnt help either

[median heath]

Need Inverse Pump that sucks the fluid out of the buffer.

[oblique hollow]

pressurized buffers

Gasometers

[median heath]

Buffers with a window so you can see fullness is all I want 😭

[wind spade]

No buffers best buffers

[median heath]

That translates effectively to "no trains best trains" 😉

Given that is the usecase of buffers.

[wind spade]

Only if you do fluid trains

[median heath]

There are non-fluid buffers too.

[wind spade]

Those are called containers

[oblique hollow]

did you know theres kinda a mod for that

[median heath]

"Kinda" isn't good enough.

[oblique hollow]

it turns the entire buffer into a window or rather fullness gauge

[median heath]

I don't want the ENTIRE buffer changed.

[oblique hollow]

its just the color

of the actual buffer vessel

a flat color which rises

[median heath]

Ew.

[oblique hollow]

thats all ill say on it, rest of it would be for the mod discord

[deft lichen]

looks dope

fight me Sev

[median heath]

When and where?

Zappers only.
No Jetpack.
Blade Runners.

You choose location and time of day.

[oblique hollow]

On top of the manta at noon

[median heath]

Each party gets 2 bacons for heals.

[proven raptor]

hi, i got a questin about coal generators. can someone help real quick?

[median heath]

No no, we help fake slow around here 😉

[oblique hollow]

just ask your question

[median heath]

As opposed to asking someone else's?

[proven raptor]

i have 128 coalgenerators and 4 normal coal veins and 1 pure. how do i split the coal veins perfectly?

[median heath]

Manifold.

[proven raptor]

?

[median heath]

!wikisearch manifold

[brisk shore]

https://satisfactory.wiki.gg/index.php?search=manifold

[oblique hollow]

you dont need a perfect split

[proven raptor]

ok

but i want it efficient as possible

[oblique hollow]

this is efficient

[median heath]

It will be.

[proven raptor]

ok

[median heath]

Manifolds and Balancers have equal efficiency.

[proven raptor]

ty

i dont get it

[median heath]

What do you not get?

[proven raptor]

im new to the game, so dont hate on me. i dont know what they are trying to tell me

[median heath]

Ok what's your highest mk belt?

[proven raptor]

4

[median heath]

And you're still making Coal Power??

[proven raptor]

miners i have at2

yes

[median heath]

Ok so a mk4 can feed 32 Coal Gens.

[oblique hollow]

why not oil

[proven raptor]

im at phase two of the spaceelevator

[median heath]

Put them all in a line, one splitter in front of each.

[median heath]

If you have mk4s. You're on phase 3.

[oblique hollow]

if you have mk 4 conveyor you have access to Oil

[proven raptor]

yeah i need to complete phase 3 sorry

i have mk4 assembley lines

i dont have computers so i cant build this with oil

[median heath]

@proven raptor mk4 feeds 32 gens.
Put them in a line. Single splitter in front of each.

[proven raptor]

mk4 miner?

[median heath]

No such building exists.

[proven raptor]

oh shit hhahaha

ok so a mk2 miner on normal vein feeds 32 coal generators?

[median heath]

Is that what I said?

[proven raptor]

i dont know, what youre saying

im stupid thats why im asking these questions

[median heath]

I didn't say anything about miners.
At all.

This is about belts.

[proven raptor]

oh yeah i have mk4 belts

[median heath]

mk4 feeds 32 gens.
Put them in a line. Single splitter in front of each.

[proven raptor]

yes

[median heath]

Is that part clear as to how it works with 100% efficiency without you needing to do anything else?

[proven raptor]

i think so yes

[median heath]

What are you doubting?

[proven raptor]

myself?

[median heath]

Elaborate.
What about the above system is unclear in any respect.

[proven raptor]

i put 32 coal generators in a line and put splitters in front of it

i have done that already

[median heath]

And it runs without issue.
Because splitters will self-balance.

So "how to feed equally" is just manifold it.

[proven raptor]

yeah i get that

and how many gens can i feed with a pure vein?

[median heath]

That is too variable to answer.

Miner mk + clock speed.
Find out the exact amount being given, then you can know how many generators.

[oblique hollow]

put a miner on it

and then pick a clock rate

then divide the rate you get by 15

thats your number of coal generators

[proven raptor]

ah ok

thank you guys

[glacial saffron]

I'm trying to build a drone networks that feed itself with battery
from a manufacturer which is fed with drone ports

if drones are loaded enough it must be working right ?

(pushing more batteries than it consume to feed the battery factory)

[stone delta]

The maximum number of batteries each drone can consume is 4.2/min so as long as you feed that amount you should be good. The only real limit is the total number of batteries each drone can carry determines its travel distance. I recommend connecting the drone ports to the same power grid. There is a bug where if they are on disconnected power grids, the game will not correctly calculate the battery consumption of the drones.

[spiral furnace]

what powerplant should i focus on? Nuclear seems to complicated to get clean with so many different resources. Thinkin about some turbofuel layout but the sulfur and crude oil nodes are so far away, so might setup a drone thingy for that

ive never tried setting things up with trains since i dont know yet what/where i need to transport

[vapid gorge]

if you get the heavy oil residue and one of hte diluted fuel alt recipes that can do you for the whole game if you like and is simple

[median heath]

Nuclear.

[primal flicker]

Whatever is more fun for you. You could do entirely coal gens if that's your thing.
But that would be a lot of coal gens.

[jolly marsh]

I think you can set up 180 coal generators in the blue crater (at least WhatDarrenPlays calculated... Haven't seen enough of his vids to know if he does it, but he's pretty good about his calcs) but yeah, agree, do whatever feels fun for you. If nukes feel like a chore, explore other options! Eventually you might be in a spot where nukes naturally become something you want.

[primal flicker]

Should be 160, and that's anywhere with 4 normal coal nodes. You could do that there, and at the snake tree forest lake, and also at NE RD "Coal Bay". And that's not even factoring in the crater lakes coal or anything else.

Hell, burn petroleum coke for the memes.

[spiral furnace]

thanks for answers, yea i dont want to setup and plan a huge train line for nuclear right now, i dont wanna have to redo the trains once i do them. My world is mostly empty right now with one megafactory that im workin on getting rid off cause its ugly

[primal flicker]

I've been chewing through just planning nuclear power, for a while now. First attempt and I'm aiming for the stupid goal of 300/min plutonium waste.
I think I can do it all with drones.

[jolly marsh]

Lol true... Or cut your burn rate in half to feed 300+ plants with compacted coal.

[primal flicker]

If the sulfur is convenient. Which it rarely is.
The nice thing about coke is it's so simple to produce. You just need to do something with the resin.

But fuel still gives almost 3x the power as coke from the same amount of crude.

[vital charm]

how do i make an overflow system for fluids?
i have to send 2100 fuel/min from 21 blenders to 70 fuel gens max overclock

[median heath]

Go to Bing.com and type in "Satisfactory Overflow Hook"

[primal flicker]

Fluids cannot be overflowed. They can be packaged and sunk. And you don't want any overflow if your supply = demand.

[median heath]

? They can be overflowed.
That's how you know how much to package and sink 😉

[vital charm]

i split the gens into 10 rows of 7 gens each. now i gotta figure out how to evenly distribute

[primal flicker]

In this case, the answer seems to be zero because 2100 = 2100

[median heath]

Don't "figure it out"
Do not think about pipes in terms of belts.

[vital charm]

yeah i know

[median heath]

You cannot split or merge.
You cannot direct specific amounts.

Fluid goes where it can. So build a system that accounts for that.

[primal flicker]

2100/600 is between 3 and 4 so you need 4 pipes at least

[vital charm]

this is what i got so far. 5 belts 420/min each

[primal flicker]

Alternatively each group of 3 blenders makes 300/min fuel which would supply 10 gens @ 250%. Do that 7 times.

[vital charm]

hmm yeah that might be the way to go tbh

would save me a lot of effort and headaches

[true junco]

Im fairly certain that the pipe manual that is in one of the pinned posts of this discord has a good diagram for a pipe overflow device. And a bunch of other useful things.

[wind spade]

take each pipe and put it into exact amount of gens that it needs

[vapid gorge]

why does it need to 'over flow' ?

do what greeny said

[tropic hawk]

#math-and-meta message
The last link there should help

[quick gull]

If I have all the math figured out, do you know why this is not at full efficiency

[vapid gorge]

because the efficiency meter is full of lies. look at the colour of the lights on the machines to see if any are stuttering

[quick gull]

the ones on the top level are, but the pumps say they can pump to that height

[vapid gorge]

You would need to look at all the machines that are fed by the extractor - do their lights stay green?
you can also just stare at the extractors light for 30 seconds - if there's something wrong it'll likely stutter within that time

[quick gull]

like some say they arnt getting enough fuel, but the pipes say they can carry enough, and the extractor isn't running at full capacity

[vapid gorge]

ok so trouble shooting 101:

Look at the machine - is the problem too full of output? or too empty of input?

In this case empty of input

Action - follow it back

the machines making fuel - are their outputs full and stuttering? or are their inputs empty and starving?

[quick gull]

starving

[vapid gorge]

so the machines making fuel aren't getting the inputs to MAKE the fuel? Cool, is the input just oil?

[quick gull]

yes they arnt getting enough oil, but the oil extractor at max capacity

[vapid gorge]

ok so you followed it back to the oil extractor - is the oil extractor's output getting blocked up and stalling sometimes?

[quick gull]

there is no where for it to get blocked up except at the refineries?

[vapid gorge]

does it's output get full of oil and make it stall

[quick gull]

oh yes

[vapid gorge]

control panels are a gold mine of info 🙂

ok so the situation is this

Fuel producers aren't getting enough oil - Oil extractor is backing up.

There's a few different issues this could be - can you think of what some might be?

Well 1 main one is most realistic

[quick gull]

The pumps are not at max head lift so I wouldn't think it to be how much to moves the oil upwards

[vapid gorge]

if you're getting flow at the top and most machines are working? it's probably not headlift

there's sometimes very edge cases where you're just ad the max headlift and some machines will work but most won't but it's fairly rare.

are most machines up there working?

[quick gull]

no, they are out of oil

[vapid gorge]

ok so the answer I was looking for for the 'main reasons for this' was 'flow issue'

Something in your set up is stopping flow. Could be head lift, could be a buggy floor hole quite a few things.

The only way to really diagnose that is with some over head shots of the pipe layout from extractor to refineries

Maybe make a post in #1038092680493801533

that way we don't flood this channel

[quick gull]

ok ty

[oblique hollow]

second image is quite frightening

im not surprised that this doesnt run well at 600/min

its too complex

please but those 3 pipeline pumps on the ground

not 3 m off the ground

[vapid gorge]

I'm sure that'll be part of the qna post discussion 😄

[oblique hollow]

for sure

[vapid gorge]

I was mostly trying to establish some basic trouble shootings skills 🙂

[oblique hollow]

for relevancy:
#math-and-meta message

the pipes here are raised and all

which likely leads to backflow into the junctions

[vapid gorge]

"If you have a mk 2 input manifold at 600, use a mk 2 pump at the feed input. Even if the manifold is absolutely flat.
On an output manifold, having the mk 2 somewhere in the middle is what seems to work"

Are you saying something has cropped up that sometimes means you need a mk2 pump before the start of a manifold now?

[oblique hollow]

mk 2 seems to like it

[vapid gorge]

looping and flooding not enough?

[oblique hollow]

you can check my QA post on pipes issues

this is one more safety net to looping or splitting

if you dont do looping or splitting, then even mk 1 vs mk 2 pump makes a difference

[vapid gorge]

and by "On an output manifold, having the mk 2 somewhere in the middle is what seems to work" you mean a pump somewhere along an output manifold?? that's weird.

[oblique hollow]

yes

[vapid gorge]

weird

[oblique hollow]

just so it has the 50m

on the end it doesnt work

[vapid gorge]

why would it need that head lift if it's flat?

and why the middle?

[oblique hollow]

same reason why you put it before the input manifold and not "in the middle of the input manifold"

the mk 2 needs enough pressure to not be affected by the first row of junctions when its at 600 flow

point is you need the 50 m for the 600 flow to survive the very first (for input manifold) or last junctions (output manifold) to not get interrupted

[vapid gorge]

Huh, the only times I've really had to add some pumps in for something like that is when I've branched a pipe into multiple manifolds. Usually on different elevations (not that I do that frequently)

[oblique hollow]

if you dont do branching or looping, this absolutely makes the difference

[vapid gorge]

That's a good heads up, thanks 😄
I can't seem to search the qna forum by author, do you have a link to your post?

[oblique hollow]

i kinda feel like i should ping laura with this

cause i remember her post with the bottom feeding manifold

and how mk 2 somehow helped

[oblique hollow]

https://questions.satisfactorygame.com/post/60352c10fedfd12dd739b885
second save file / issue report

[vapid gorge]

oooohh the main qna not discord, gotcha sorry

Also do you have an idea of what might be the differences in a flat manifold whether it might need a pump or not?

[oblique hollow]

ive known for a while now that head lift really is pressure

its just that for the flow math, there is a cutoff point

at like 1.5 m

[vapid gorge]

wdym 'cutoff at 1.5m' ?

[oblique hollow]

above 1.5 , it doesnt directly affect flow math between pipes

but turns into the "all or nothing" head lift we know

below 1.5, head lift is the pressure that dictates how much flow there should be between pipes

[vapid gorge]

as in , if it doesn't have to rise more than 1.5 post the junction nothing happens?

[oblique hollow]

1.5 m is the pipe diameter

this is literally a 0 m height difference manifold

a flat pipe has a head lift of 1.5 or 1.3 m

cause thats the pipe volume itself

[vapid gorge]

right ok, you know I never considered where the machines started calculating head lift from

[oblique hollow]

center point of the pipe, but then head lift is still considered for the full pipe diameter

[vapid gorge]

would issues be solved if they just calced it from the top of the pipe?

[oblique hollow]

no that just shifts it

once a pipe is full, it has an extra volume called "overfill"
overfill allows pipes to sustain max flow (cause then the normal volume doesnt drop - it gets pulled from overfill)
overfill also affects how pump head lift gets transmitted

and i believe it is the interaction between the overfill portion for sustaining max flow and passing on head lift thats important here

if that portion suddenly varies, you get a major reduction in passed on head lift

buuuut if the applied head lift is big enough... then you dont lose as much due to flux

[vapid gorge]

Wild.
I guess just to be extremely specific, what I was asking before was if you took 2 flat manifolds (not identical) what do you think might be attributing factors that 1 might need a pump at the start and the other wouldn't?

I don't deep dive like you, I mostly try to focus on what rules can be bent/broken and what might be possible causes

[oblique hollow]

Conditions

1. Its a Mk 2 manifold at 600/min
2. the Sidelines are not Mk.1 Pipes
3. it is not split or looped

Then you probably benefit from a Mk. 2 Pump at the input

[vapid gorge]

ah ok. Maybe I misread, I thought you suggested using the pump on a looped single manifold

[oblique hollow]

it may not be needed, but it definitely wont hurt either

[vapid gorge]

You know I don't know if I've ever gotten a mk2 system flowing at 600 w/o a loop. And I mean ones that are just 1 junction being split to only 3 machines or something

[oblique hollow]

open that test save from the QA report then

and have a look around it

the test build right in front of the HUB demonstrates what i just talked about

[vapid gorge]

Oh I believe you - I very likely just design layouts that jsut do not play friendly w/o loops 😄

I like my pipes to look certain ways and it very quickly got to the point of 'ok just loops everywhere, all the time, loops'

[vapid gorge]

this is funny btw

"Dark Purple: violently slamming the limit slider of a Valve from 0 to 300 multiple (around 30) times results in the Valve generating head lift. This manifests in the form of the Valve in the attached save displaying a flow greater than 0 m³/min on an empty pipe. The oil stops at the roughly Z = 0m. This does not happen above Z = 0m. Unfortunately, this permanently applies to all Valves in this save, even newly built and dismantled ones."

[amber umbra]

That's quite the fluid behavior

[oblique hollow]

was fixed

shadowfixed

i noted that in a comment below

[quick gull]

what pictures should I show?

[vapid gorge]

Angled from above - from the oil extractor to the refineries

[vapid gorge]

what made you even think of jsut ramming the slider back and forth?

[oblique hollow]

just for funsies

[quick gull]

oh so now it works. I feel its just toying with me

[oblique hollow]

that doesnt look like working

if that extractor keeps filling up its not fixed

[vapid gorge]

remember - don't trust the meter. Look at the the light

[quick gull]

its constantly at 20 in there now

[oblique hollow]

Did you change anything

[quick gull]

wait no its still broken. I gtg now but I just removed the valves to regulate flow I added after it started not working

[vapid gorge]

when you have time make a post with the images I suggested and I can take you through proper pipe design if you like. Also remove all valves and buffers

[quick gull]

ok ty.

[true junco]

That reminds me. I had a fluid freight platform that was full of flyid but the sight glass in the interface showed only half full. Is that a known bug?

[stone delta]

If you have all a hoverpack, all of the necessary alt recipes unlocked, and have a lot of power shards you can use my nuclear power blueprint set.

[oblique hollow]

Its known

[tender salmon]

I just made my first coal generator setup witch consist of 8 Generators and 3 Water Extractors. But now the last 2 cut out because they run out of coal. I have done the math and it should be working becuase its running on a pure vein and fully MK2 Belts and Lifts. Anyone that could help?

[wind spade]

are they all filled with coal?

[tender salmon]

No the last 1 is some how not getting enough

[bold elm]

You did a manifold. It won't fill unless the others are full. Are they full?

[primal flicker]

Turn off the first generator or two until the last generator is full or at least half full.

[tender salmon]

Thank you got it working

[empty flower]

Anyone have any spreadsheets

[wind spade]

for what?