math-and-meta

[prisma kraken]

usually the way i'll build the default rip recipe is to do 3 plate constructors for 90 ingots at 100% for 60 plate/min and then 3 cast screw constructors at 80% to give 120 screw/min from 30 ingots

[rotund sedge]

I've got that part now. But is that including if we are burning recycled plutonium

[prisma kraken]

that's just the base uranium burning, i didn't draw up the numbers for the recycling, would you like me to? (only takes a moment)

[rotund sedge]

If you could

[prisma kraken]

sure, should i assume you want the max pfr yield with the recipes?

[rotund sedge]

As my goal is so far figure out the lowest amount of urainum that we need.

So whatever is the most effecinent for the reactor setup

[prisma kraken]

oh, you want 168 reactors with pfrs AND ufr's

[rotund sedge]

Yes

[prisma kraken]

gotcha, give me a minute

[rotund sedge]

Mixed ik it's funky but the people helping me don't wanna keep buoling pumps lmao

Building

[prisma kraken]

its a different problem that i thought it was, going to take a moment to draw it up

ok, so, what i've managed to figure out so far is that 187.5 uranium/min will fuel 9 reactors with ufr's and 8 reactors with the resulting pfr's with this recipe chain:

(i'd include the pfr reactors, but the tool i'm using maths that out wrong)

[rotund sedge]

Ahh

[prisma kraken]

but 2 pfr/min = 8 reactors

so you get 17 reactors from 187.5 uranium

[rotund sedge]

Ye thanks a ton

Helps us a ton

So we don't have to end up doing work twice

[prisma kraken]

so...

1852 uranium/min

[rotund sedge]

Bet

[prisma kraken]

rounding that up to 170 reactors for some more square numbers, i get this as the required inputs:

[rotund sedge]

I might just round it up anyway

So the numbers are square

[prisma kraken]

which isn't too bad, the nitric acid sucks b/c its more than any one nitro well can provide, and you're looking at 20 hmf/min to support it along with a few baux nodes of production and a pretty chunky stator/ecr build, but its doable

[rotund sedge]

Most of the infrastructure for the plant is. Being fed by mass rail transport so

Not a major issue

[prisma kraken]

you need a good amt of sulfur for it

[rotund sedge]

Doable.

Might have to basically use all of it lmao

[prisma kraken]

and like 2625 silica is the type of number that you're looking at a big cheap silica build, but yeah, pretty doable as a project, i'd say if you don't run into power problems, that's a few weeks of effort

the stators and oscillators are probably the big things

90 beacons/min stink to make whichever recipe you use, i'd be inclined to do iron-only beacons for that

[rotund sedge]

We have a 10GWH battery as a burnable battery for some time.

And like 30GW of total power production.

So we will be having to try our best to handle getting the plant started cold.

But once it's running

[prisma kraken]

yeah, but both the oscillators and the ecr's are probably +10gw factories, and you kind of need some of them to get the initial nuke reactors going

[rotund sedge]

Hence why we will basically have to build and start fuel production first before the PFR burners even kick on

[prisma kraken]

so you're either going to be doing tiny builds for those to get some nuclear up and then do the real builds, or need to give yourself a 30-40 gw cushion to do those builds right the first time

[rotund sedge]

We may have to build a bigger battey

Hold on

[prisma kraken]

one thing i'll say is it isn't fun to do nuclear on the clock

[rotund sedge]

I mean. It's not a huge ordeal. Pals and I have had other saves where we had to do nuclear on the clock due to a power grid failure.

[prisma kraken]

i'm wondering if i can twiddle the recipes a bit to get that 187.5 for 17 down a little

[rotund sedge]

Our gas power plant had an issue forcing it to shut down. And by the time we noticed it. The plant was requiring a cold start. So we actually had to finish building a small 3 reactor nuclear plant to Kickstart the rest of the grid again

This will be that

Just on a massive scale

[prisma kraken]

it doesn't get the uranium number down at all, but if you substitute in fertile uranium for dealing with the nuke waste, you get this:

which will fuel 9 ufr reactors & 24 pfr reactors

you need 5.09090909 modules of that which brings you in very close to the 2100 uranium map limit

either way you're going to be using all 4 uranium nodes

anyway, that's about all i've got to give with the calculations, g'luck

my problem with the max-power builds is that they start eating into aluminum production and when that happens, you run out of stuff you can do with all the power 😛

[rotund sedge]

Ehh. Even if we have to sacrifice some aluminum prod. We can either scale power production around. Or have the array run in interverals

[prisma kraken]

true

all i'm saying is that in large worlds you're going to run out of bauxite before anything else

however you choose to build that out, i'd also keep an eye on the caterium use

ecr's can eat away at that pretty hardcore if you don't use silicon hsc+regular stator

[brazen scarab]

I am going to process 6000 caterium ore/min (100/s) into quickwire. Should i use refineries or smelters to process the ore?

[vapid gorge]

well you get more from the pure refinery? depends how much qw you want at the end

you can use this tool to do some quick maths https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production

[brazen scarab]

I know but its just a 50% improvement but for a far larger space and power req. However i have 20-30 GW free power

[vapid gorge]

I mean if you need more cat ingots than the smelter recipe produces you do what you need to right?

honestly making a hub just for QW isn't the greatest idea imo - it's annoying to ship wire

[brazen scarab]

Im going to make factories for endgame parts and some need a LOT of quickwire. And i have a lot of space in the southern part of my world

[vapid gorge]

Sure - but thats not a counter argument?

1 cat ingot makes 5 wire

That means for every belt of ingots you're then moving 5 belts of wire

ship the ingots and make wire on site.

Honestly just ship the ingots to the location too

same with screws

[slim matrix]

am i crazy or the map needs to be tweaked a little in a bunch of different nodes all grouped together with barely any space to get out

plus there is no fucking light with a huge cave opening

[vapid gorge]

Nature doesn't fit to your convenience and it's a game about problem solving logistical challenges like that 😛

Also caves are dark

[slim matrix]

yeah first part is true

[vapid gorge]

caves also get dark very quickly even a little way in

[slim matrix]

second doesnt really fit here, there is a massive opening as you can see in the screenshot

and 0 light is getting in

[vapid gorge]

you can see the floor, it isn't pitch

[slim matrix]

dark is one thing but here we are talking pitch black

[vapid gorge]

I can see the surface edging on the concrete floors 😄

[vapid gorge]

and now you're facing away from light sources 😄 Caves get very dark very quickly.

unless the sun is just at the angle of basically shining into the cave? it'll be pitch fast

[slim matrix]

im in the same place, light doesnt work that way

it doesnt care about the place you are

[vapid gorge]

did the sun go down further? ^_-

[slim matrix]

not at all

[vapid gorge]

I would be very surprised if the lighting changed because of the camera angle

[slim matrix]

it does a bit i think, ive had a couple cases where my head borderline close to clip with terrain and it would become pitch dark

[slim matrix]

same place but looking back

[deft lichen]

@slim matrix global illumination enabled?

[slim matrix]

yeah yeah

[deft lichen]

well duh lmao

enables more realistic lighting, surprised cave with no light sources is dark

[slim matrix]

yeah i know how it works

but still, there is a huge cave opening right in front, there should be some light

lol GI disabled

lol just going a few meters forward and the light dissapears

something not quite right, i imagine related with the raytracing range around the character

[deft lichen]

they've said the world isn't designed around Lumen

it's just one developer's fun project

so it either works and looks cool or doesn't, too bad

[slim matrix]

also the lack of hdr plays a big factor problably on the internal tonemaper

[deft lichen]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frBNnNWEbyk

[slim matrix]

im pretty informed about hdr

dont know what the point of that video is

[deft lichen]

just thought I'd share

[slim matrix]

ah i see

watched couple of min the guy actually seems to know what he is saying, was expecting worse lol

yeah it is true there is not many games with proper hdr

but there is quite a few actually, basically the ones that support PQ10 hdr

well towards the end of the video the guy kinda clueless, ofc hdr is not gonna look correctly on SDR, you have to tonemap it

and compatibility is completely fine, games that support hdr will tonemap to sdr just fine

anyway too off topic for this channel

[oblique hollow]

could you do me a favor please: hold alt and left click that spot while its still visible. that should show a distance ping

if im not mistaken, that distance should be about 200m

[slim matrix]

i think its 100m what you are talking about

after 100 it goes pitch dark very fast

[oblique hollow]

interesting

main point I tried to make was: Lumen usually only has an effective range of 200m but it seems they set it even lower than that in SF

[slim matrix]

yeah but either way i think they have something wrong configured with the tonemapper

lol you can actually enable hdr with console

its an actual improvement

cant see much on the tonemapped one, but the hdr screenshot if you have hdr monitor you can tell there is a lot more detail

[oblique hollow]

when in doubt, gamma to the rescue

[slim matrix]

thats not true gamma tho

its just a boost to the tonemapping

[wind spade]

@swift rose here's some tips for picking alt recipes: #math-and-meta message

[swift rose]

Aight, thanks

[prisma kraken]

woohoo, 1/4 of the stator build is now running!

i swear, the bigger the project, the exponentially longer running the belts takes

[vapid gorge]

I mean it looks like you're load balancing? so yeah it's going ot be an increasing pain in the ass

a manifold would take moments

[prisma kraken]

i'm honestly balancing because its less of a pita... there's too many lines coming in that just load balancing from a smart splitter the entire production lines makes sense to do. really more of an aesthetic choice

[primal flicker]

Phase 2 package lets gooooo

[daring locust]

uhmm i just ran a conveeyor belt about a 1000m and its going the wrong way can i do anything

[wind spade]

not run conveyors for 1km and use vehicles instead 😛 (or build on location)

but other than that, not really

[daring locust]

well i wont play this game for a few weeks

[prisma kraken]

why such oddball numbers?

(also steel rotor is more efficient on resources unless you use steamed sheet)

[wind spade]

is it? 🤔 I think it's worse than normal

[wheat tundra]

That sucks, I have done that, but not 1km worth

[prisma kraken]

copper sheets are just pricey w/o steamed

[wind spade]

I mean steel rotor vs normal rotor

normal is afaik cheaper than steel

[prisma kraken]

gimme a sec to find my notes

[wind spade]

so if your argument is "steel is cheaper", then I'd rather go normal than steel for even more cheap 😛

[prisma kraken]

default recipe for wire & sheets; cast screw for making screws:

[wind spade]

now do default + steel screws

so we can compare better

[prisma kraken]

sure i can, want steel rod in it too?

[wind spade]

that's just pure gain steel-wise, doesn't need to be for now

[prisma kraken]

k

[wind spade]

my point is that "if I want to add steel to my rotors", then normal rotor is cheaper than steel rotor

[true junco]

Well. The analysis on wiki makes some annoying prescribed assumptions/choices. But i would say that steel rotor is "more expensive" than default. Per wiki. Its about the same amount of mined items in, but default is all iron, and steel is half coal.

But i would have to go back and redo the calcs because of the assumptions/choices made by the wiki author.

[prisma kraken]

this is what that looks like

[wind spade]

yeah that's 2/3rd of steel compared to steel rotor

and rest is 500 iron vs 300 copper

[prisma kraken]

well, that's burning a lot of iron too

[true junco]

Why the hell does the wiki assume iron wire, but then doesnt assume steel rods to screws. Lol.

[prisma kraken]

because the editor's were lazy and just used numbers from greeny's tool w/o de-selecting iron wire 😛

[wind spade]

because the analysis was made by one person and followed their subjective decisions

[wind spade]

no, there were intentional decisions to not use what tools give by default

[true junco]

This is why it should have all been "base" recipes as often as possible on the wiki except foe the actual alternates being compared imo.

[wind spade]

it shouldn't have been any recipes further, instead the person would have to check how to make that item separately

[true junco]

Sometimes they assume pure ingots. Sometimes not. Its not even consistent choices.

[prisma kraken]

i agree the iron wire thing with the wiki analysis is pretty bad of a decision, it is cheaper than anything from a resource-weighted cost, but making iron wire is something you're not going to do unless maxing the world

on that subject, i find the modular frame recipe analysis just woefully bad

you follow the misleading analysis on that page, you end up with a bad factory

[wind spade]

or have extra iron/not enough copper 🤷‍♂️

[prisma kraken]

the only time you'll ever run out of copper is if going for more than 32 pasta/min

[wind spade]

you're confusing global availability with local availability

bringing copper from far vs using iron wire is almost always gonna end up "I'd just use iron wire"

[prisma kraken]

like you don't even need to use pure copper at all if you're not trying for ridiculous pasta numbers

[true junco]

Yeah. Ironwire is always a supplimental thing for me. Its handy to boost my usual primary wire productions from Fused Wire, or allow those materials to be prioritized to fused quickwire and copper sheets or whatever.

[prisma kraken]

there's a place for iron wire, i'm not saying its bad or anything, just fricking painful to use

[true junco]

It is a bit of a hassle. Its less wire per ingot. Slow machine speed...but when i just need a little bit of wire, or just a little bit more wire. Its handy.

[prisma kraken]

also, there's not much use for it; outside of space elevator stuff, every recipe that requires wire just needs a few assemblers on fused wire and you're not going to be running thin

[wind spade]

so everywhere that I make anything out of wire I need to have caterium on hand? 🤔

that's kinda limiting for me

[prisma kraken]

with the scale i'm building, yeah, i'm running into copper problems, but where i'm running into copper problems isn't in a lot of places

probably the only real place where i've found a pure copper node with alloy wasn't locally enough is in making classic batteries along side all of the other pink forest bauxite processing

that took something like 1640 ingots when i was only getting 1560 from copper alloy... hated converting that build to pure copper to avoid another train, lol

[true junco]

The only time i use alloy ingots is when i dont want to bring the ores and water together.

[prisma kraken]

man, i tried to get that 1640 down to 1560 though!

imho, i think alloy is the way you should defacto make copper

[wind spade]

I mean you're judging it based on your playstyle 🤷‍♂️ which may not be what other people do. And different playstyles mean different preferences and different issues 🙂

[true junco]

Who me?

[wind spade]

no, moon

[true junco]

Did you convert the whole build to pure ingots? Or did you just peel off some of it to pure?

[prisma kraken]

what i'm saying is that my building style is on the large side and most people aren't going to be targeting the size i am, and that while a lot of local resource availability issues do come up, it really isn't as bad as people would believe

all of it to pure, i'm probably going to end up with the lion's share of copper making being pure eventually, its just a matter of getting max nuclear cooking first 😦

[wind spade]

and that while a lot of local resource availability issues do come up, it really isn't as bad as people would believe
... in your playthrough (and playstyle) 🙂

[prisma kraken]

i don't want to, but getting a number of 32 pasta/min sorta just requires it

well yeah, of course, i'm burning entire biomes for factory lines, lol, of course!

[true junco]

Well. Any build that pushes the capacity of the world will do that.

[prisma kraken]

what i'm saying, and perhaps i'm incorrect, is that most players won't go to those lengths

you're always going to have the twit that decides to do a max screw build and looks at pure iron+cast screw as a goal for the world's iron

(then you point out that they should have used steel screw to max it) 😛

[wind spade]

*steel rod

[prisma kraken]

yeah, your actually right, with compacted steel!

shudder

i do like compacted steel for some niche cases, but maxing out the worlds sulfur on it seems a little... um

[wind spade]

not only that 😄

max screw build has like... everything 😄

[prisma kraken]

i figured you'd start with compacted coal and then have to start using coke steel 😛

[wind spade]

you basically make steel out of everything you can and then convert remaining iron with alloy for cast screw

[prisma kraken]

you may have missed my masochist's challenge the other day... look up maxing out portable miners, lol

[wind spade]

fun

10k portable miners tho

oh yeah, good old alumina solution byproduct 🙂

[prisma kraken]

yeah, that's LGIO level pointless

oh, i forgot, the 10k can't be attained b/c you can't dispose of the solution, lol

[wind spade]

you can, just have 100000 fluid buffers and empty it once in 100 hours

[prisma kraken]

well, that's cheating

does that use all the oil?

[wind spade]

it's not cheating since it's singleplayer sandbox with no rules 😛

[prisma kraken]

that makes me cry

[wind spade]

you still have all the limestone tho so you can make tons of foundations to build on

[prisma kraken]

it just makes me want another portable miner alt that is uranium + nitrogen + limestone in a blender

almost sounds sane after realizing you can max the world on portable miners, right?

[true junco]

Thats not even max screws. I believe You can make even more with pure iron ingots instead of alloy.

[wind spade]

you can't

alloy is more iron->ingot efficient and you can't convert copper to screws in any other way

[prisma kraken]

iron alloy really isn't good for anything

[wind spade]

also that's "hey tools pls maximise screws", so unless there's a big bug in tools that has been unnoticed for years, I'd say it's correct

[prisma kraken]

except on not having to build portable miners to tap another iron node 😛

i honestly keep trying to find a place for iron alloy, and i just can't

[wind spade]

once again - having extra copper on location and wanting more iron 🤷‍♂️ 😛

[true junco]

No its me. I was mixing up ratios. Lol

[prisma kraken]

on the map there's only two places i can think of where you'd actually be in that boat

titan forest & the dune desert crater, each for making default oscillators

[wind spade]

you can't look at empty map for that. People have tapped nodes and not all of them plan ahead for every single production

so they can get into situations that are not obvious from empty untapped map

[prisma kraken]

bad planning isn't a good reason to use iron alloy

[wind spade]

it's not "bad planning". It's "not knowing what future holds because it's first playthrough"

or "don't have the whole playthrough planned"

[prisma kraken]

on a first playthough, you're not going to use iron alloy anyway 😛

[true junco]

Iron alloy is 2.5x

Pure iron is 1.85x

Oops. Lol

[primal flicker]

I haven't found steel rotor yet. The rest is based on "how much can I proportionally make, limited to a single coal miner?"

[prisma kraken]

gotcha, the numbers just looked a little strange is all

something i'll point out to you with your plan, just because i've been playing with the numbers a lot... you can jack up the autowire/min with insulated cable when you get that recipe

[true junco]

Ultimately i dont like iron alloy because i never seam to have copper i dont need.

[true junco]

Insulated cable is on my short list of alts I always use.

[prisma kraken]

i keep trying to find places to use it and can't justify it

i'm not much of a user of cable at all, so i don't much mileage out of the cable alts

[true junco]

I used Iron alloy once very recently, and on a fairly small scale. Just to try it out. Its nice that its easy to make the numbers line up with solid steel.

[prisma kraken]

i'm unsure why coal isn't the limiting factor there for you

[primal flicker]

Except I'll be building a new factory when I get to that point. And I probably will use insulated, then, along with fused wire.

[prisma kraken]

how i sort of prioritize node utilization is i make sure that i have iron for feeding into copper alloy first, that takes the priority, then i convert as much iron as i can to steel, sometimes needing compacted coal to stretch the coal farther than i could with solid steel, and then because there's always more iron than coal, the rest gets converted to iron ingots to be used with coated iron plate

[primal flicker]

I like iron alloy for compactness. Low building count and space occupied.

It's not always about stretching the resource nodes.

[primal flicker]

Same reason I'm fond of coke steel.

[prisma kraken]

that doesn't work with iron alloy though, lol

[true junco]

Well for me, the applications for Insulated cable are the same as a lot of the other highly productive recipes (steel screws, fused (quick)wire etc). Insulated cable lets me feed any machine that needs cables with no more than a single feeder machine, or to supply a manifold of cable consumers off of a single producer.

The other thing is that its part of the whole range of recipes that use petroleum products that are very productive and eliminate high volumes of other materials.

[prisma kraken]

i agree, insulated is a good recipe... i just don't use the recipes that take cable though

[true junco]

Any reason or just a consequence of other choices?

[prisma kraken]

just a consequence

you need it for default beacon, but you'd do that internally to the beacon factory with iron wire

[chrome comet]

does anyone have a good layout for pure iron refinement ?

[prisma kraken]

for the other cable recipes: oscillator, hsc, and computer, the alt recipes are just more resource efficient and as such, i don't need much cable

i'll say there's an exception with autowire if i didn't want to use the alt for that

[wind spade]

miner -> refinery 😛

[chrome comet]

genius

[prisma kraken]

which isn't more resource efficient in the grand scheme, but using 2x the resources as in the form of stators & cable isn't a bad trade-off for not having to mass produce silicon hsc's

[wind spade]

most layouts for that will involve just row of refineries with water and iron manifolded to them. So not sure what specific you're looking for

[prisma kraken]

yep, the pure refinery builds are some of the most boring things you'll ever build

[chrome comet]

like a diagram for a good way to set up the rows due to transport limits

[wind spade]

if you have transport limits, group your refineries in such an amount that there's no transport limit anymore

[prisma kraken]

well, 7 refineries fill an mk5 belt

[chrome comet]

huh? i got 12?

[prisma kraken]

you're essentially doing 420->780 as the biggest logical module you can make

i think my math is right on that? been a while since i've looked

[wind spade]

it's 12

[chrome comet]

if im doing iron and its not overclocked then it should be 12

[prisma kraken]

35->65 is the cycle

sorry, i mispoke

[chrome comet]

alr so just rows of 12, thanks guys

[chrome comet]

np

[prisma kraken]

yeah, its 12 refineries fill the output belt

[wind spade]

before you start doing that, also check how much does the next module (whatever will eat the ingots) need

[prisma kraken]

still is 420 input

[wind spade]

if one of the next modules needs e.g. 250, then separate refineries that make 250 and merge them for that module

[prisma kraken]

that recipe has the ugliest numbers

[chrome comet]

ik it hurts my brain

with fully overclocked mk3 miners, i got a max of 3600 raw iron per minute to process

[prisma kraken]

well not true... the 11 recipes are worse, but 7 & 13 are pretty bad, lol

[chrome comet]

i dont have a set amount of anything for a goal rn

[prisma kraken]

yeah, i tend to agree with greeny on what he said, it is sort of a mistake to overbuild in the early game

[true junco]

Hmmm. Iron wire + insulated cables. I need to look into that.

[chrome comet]

what would you suggest then?

[prisma kraken]

you end up using power for things you don't need and being behind the 8-ball with a lot of unneeded production and not enough power

[chrome comet]

im a perfectionist at heart so im trying to future proof

[chrome comet]

that makes sense

[true junco]

Minimalism has the benefit of not wasting your time. And at least gets something going while you work towards the big stuff.

[prisma kraken]

specifically for beacons, i played around with the numbers a while ago, and best i could find for recipe combos, with the goal of making 100.8 beacons in something that didn't suck to build was by actually using caterium wire

[true junco]

There is also a huge difference between making what you need immediately vs what you need to meet end game goals. Which are set personally anyways.

[chrome comet]

so what do you all suggest i do currently?

[true junco]

Did you use caterium cable alt too?

[chrome comet]

just try to get to the next tier and do all that and flesh it all out after?

[prisma kraken]

can't remember exactly what i did, what i was trying to do is figure out how to satisfy max nuclear with the smallest beacon build i could, i think i tried quickwire cable, and probably opted for cat wire + insulated for density

tbh, anything you do for a max nuclear beacon build kinda sucks

[true junco]

Yes. But im already very "end game" oriented.

Some things can really get parts into your hands quickly. And having building materials stashed helps. But the end point for many folks is big builds so if you just go off building big stuff, you're going to have a good time anyways. Walls and foundations dont consume power. 😆

[prisma kraken]

i think probably the least evil is to just find some iron nodes and do iron only and build the big stupid iron wire line for it

[true junco]

Ive gathered that. 😆

I just wonder if iron wire can be stretched enough to supply any modular factory blocks with "just enough" cables easier than other options.

[prisma kraken]

it's pretty annoying because you need several iron nodes for it, and like no matter what you do, the numbers aren't square, lol

you'll increase the cable and reduce the iron draw, i can draw it up if you'd like quickly as a side-by-side

my issue with it is that you need to run a train line in for the rubber, whereas just finding some unused iron somewhere and droning the beacons to nuclear seems better

here's iron beacon:

with insulated cable:

[true junco]

Damnit. Found another annoying comparison on the wiki. This one is a pet peeve of mine that i blacked out. Lol.

It assumes you use iron wire and default cables to make base Crystal Oscillators... 1205.4 iron to make 60/min. Lol

[prisma kraken]

funny, that's one of the only places i use iron wire 😛

[true junco]

I just need to plan out a crystal oscillator module and any supporting or follow on modules (like crystal computers)

[prisma kraken]

so, this is what i was saying about cat wire for beacons:

[median heath]

"End game"

[true junco]

Quotes were there for a reason. 😆

I had a blast taking a thousand hours just getting eternally side tracked in a maze of my own creation... 😆

So i figured out i want to see the calcs for oily beacons. 😆

[prisma kraken]

btw, running the numbers for mixing in quickwire cable, you end up using more caterium than cat wire+insulated cable

and end up with a bunch of ugly numbers because qw cable is an '11' recipe

[true junco]

Yeah. Havent seen any application i want to try with that alt either. Just thought this might have been the weird case that worked.

[prisma kraken]

there's usually something somewhere if you look hard enough

where i've been looking for the application of qw cable is in default HSC

i think there's probably some voltron thing of alts with that

the one thing that i found a bit ago that is interesting is this relationship

its not ZOMG efficient or anything, but if you're tapping oil just to make cable, it might be just what you need

considering that 240 wire can be made from 30 cat ingots, that's a pretty tidy little build

i just played around a bit with the numbers for default beacon, and um, came up with sort of a bride-of-frankenstein thing that's actually not too bad:

[true junco]

Sorry. Crop fail. 😆

[prisma kraken]

yeah, i took it a level farther down from the ingot level to the ore level

(our disparity is b/c i started with the target of 105 beacons)

[true junco]

This is preliminary. Ill also look at what im using beacons for. And then expand any items from precursors. I usually scale everything up to 250% on precursors so that i can see what additional capacity can come from the build.

[prisma kraken]

yeah, beacons are sort of a special case, you're only ever going to need 100.8/min of them

and who knows how long you'll need them for

[true junco]

In other words. How many things from the same number of buildables can i squeeze out by overflowing intermediates.

Ie. Max out cable, wires RIPs etc from the build for 100.8 beacons.

[prisma kraken]

it was different before u6 when you could make extra and use them for rifle ammo

[true junco]

Reason being, i know where those beacons are going. I can still overflow intermediates to support that, or to something else entirely.

[prisma kraken]

i really think it still is better to just find some out of the way iron and do the iron-only route, that way whenever whatever rebalance comes, you can just SCIM the factory out of existence

also, tying up the resources for beacons seems a little bad, there should be a bit of cat & copper leftover from whatever other planned production you're targeting, but i think its just better to do the ugly big ugly iron wire line, lol

what kills me is that you can't use pure iron to shrink it down to use a single iron node 😛

[true junco]

I do like how this is a perfect example of a candidate for recipies where a single machine can feed a manifold for an entire line. This is 7 overclocked machines on the intermediaries feeding 10.8 manufacturers at 100%

Of course i would overclock the Crystal Beacon manufacturers to 5 machines . Still a very compact build. That would be brought down to 12 machines. And room clock up to overflow intermediaries...

[prisma kraken]

yeah, i've played with those recipes as well, not as extensively... oscillators have other uses and i think it better to just allocate stuff from an oscillator factory to nuclear instead of building a tiny line just for that... you're also not looking at the ufr recipe that requires the beacons and oscillators

crystal beacon isn't bad, its just no matter what you do for max nuclear, its going to end up kind of messy somewhere

tl;dr i'd use crystal beacon if i were doing the beacon making in the nuclear plant itself, or iron beacon as a standalone with drone transport

kind of think those are the two 'sucks the least' ways of doing it all 🙂

also, just something i'll point out that i didn't realize until someone pointed it out to me, a lot of the numbers on a max nuclear build actually end up being very clean for 1800 uranium input instead of 2100

[true junco]

Hmmm. What to do with that last 300.... default uranium line on the side? Maybe something feeding nukelisks.

[prisma kraken]

either that or use it for a smaller standalone nuke plant

this doesn't have the same yield as max nuclear, but it actually is a pretty tidy build:

56 vs 90 gw for 300 uranium

what's nice with it is that the numbers end up very neat, all being 9's and 45's

i'm honesly thinking about building that on the impure uranium just to build it

[true junco]

Combine with the 1800 uranium going the max recyclable route, thats only dropping you from 630 GW to 596GW

[prisma kraken]

that recipe chain i listed is just so clean numbers-wise

when you start drilling down into the oscillators and ecr's, etc everything really lines up nicely

also, all the resources for doing that are right in the northforest/rocky desert bay inlet

(except for the nitrogen)

[wind spade]

Build what you need only. And calculate from final product

[frosty owl]

Challenge your design skills with some nuclear sushi

[frosty owl]

Reason why I always tackle nuclear in multiples of 300 (normally starting with the impure node as I don't tons of GW early on)

[true junco]

It could be useful as an easy way to step up production to support building out the full nuclear set up.

[upbeat tide]

something I have never understood. For all the pure ingot recipes why is iron soo messy? In terms of ratios

[wind spade]

because you can always underclock to match ratios

so it's not a big deal

[upbeat tide]

I know 🙂 just interesting is all

[wind spade]

if everything had great ratios, it wouldn't be a challenge 🙂

[true junco]

Because the factors 7 and 13 are involved. They share no factors with most recipes.

[upbeat tide]

Yup ik 🙂 working on a super state computer build atm, things massive, but thats my norm

[true junco]

I just sink excess as a sacrifice to mechanical testing requirements.

[upbeat tide]

Yup. How I do things, like in this case I need 200 steel pipes easy as pie but I might as well make another steel foundry and have that ready for other uses down the road

[wind spade]

obviously you can play in any way you want, but I'd personally rather leave the ore and underclock the miner. I can always get the ore later if I need to, but there's no reason to build it now

[upbeat tide]

True, but planning ahead has saved me alot of time on fugure builds. Such as I have maxed my aluminum ingot production so if I have a recipe that needs it, its just add another drone or train connection and issue solved.

[wind spade]

the time you've saved is the same that you'd use if you built it separately

it's the same amount of machines and everything

[upbeat tide]

true

[true junco]

But then again, do whatever you want. I maxed out some nodes because i know i need them plus more from another. So i havent hooked it up to its destination yet, but this is step one of building it out.

[wind spade]

yeah, I'm just saying that it's kinda "lost time" when prebuilding, because you delay whatever you're working on because of the extra machines you have to build and hook up. So if possible, I prefer to build them only as I need them (but as I already said, you can play in any way you want)

[prisma kraken]

pure iron is kind of a jokes-on-you recipe. the only thing it is really great for is to blow your power demand curve by making a lot of screws to feed to default computer or hmf

[wind spade]

or just... needing more iron than how much is on location

[prisma kraken]

i guess the numbers work out as well to make copper rotor use even more refineries, lol

yeah, like the spire coast, i wish it had more iron nodes, i always end up with 0 iron when i'm building my starter factory there, maybe i can use some water to multiply it 🙂

i'm being snarky, just woke up, sorry

in all honesty though, there's really only one spot on the map where i've found a need for extra iron

[wind spade]

if looking at empty map 🙂

[prisma kraken]

no, i mean as i've been building from different starting locations

about the only place i've found that i've needed extra iron is when trying to make default oscillators in titan forest

everywhere else, its like either zero iron or there's enough

[wind spade]

unless part has been tapped already and there's not enough remaining

[prisma kraken]

look, if you ever run out of iron nodes in a single location, you're planning very badly

[wind spade]

or I'm building something that needs a lot of iron? 🤔

[prisma kraken]

2 million screws?

[wind spade]

there are locations with only a few iron nodes, and there may be locations where part of the nodes have been tapped already for previous projects

[prisma kraken]

give me a tangible example

the only one i've found is making rips in titan forest for oscillators, and that was only because i didn't want to do some medium distance belting

[wind spade]

just to show a few. And again, some of them may be already tapped, so just looking at empty map doesn't help

[prisma kraken]

is there a reason you circled regions that have 1560+ iron?

[wind spade]

yes, because that's pretty low amount of iron for some builds

that only yields ~60 modular frames with default recipes for example

[prisma kraken]

which actually isn't a bad yield, but the mf recipe is a prime target for rebalance imho

[wind spade]

that's just 6 HMFs, which is pretty low

[prisma kraken]

i'll accept the dune desert coast as a possible place where you'd run out of iron

[wind spade]

and I can't repeat this enough times apparently for you to understand

and there may be locations where part of the nodes have been tapped already for previous projects

[ashen stirrup]

spire coast doesn't look great for iron on that map either

[wind spade]

yes, if you're looking at the whole map, it may seem pointless

but people do use it and they like it, so I don't see why it should be ultimately bad

[prisma kraken]

your argument isn't very good, delete your useless factory then and use the iron for what you need rather than to make inefficient mf's

[wind spade]

what useless factory? why would something I already built because I need it be useless?

you have to understand that people have different priorities than you

not everybody minmaxes everything and plans whole map before even starting the save

[prisma kraken]

making stuff out of iron is just lower yield than later game recipes for the same products

turn the iron into steel

[wind spade]

what if I don't want to bother with steel

that's extra coal I have to bring from somewhere

[prisma kraken]

well, go feed your biomass burners and be happy then 😛

[wind spade]

I guess I won't get you to understand that other people's priorities may be different

[prisma kraken]

if your priority is to remain in phase 1 and build the biggest iron factory you can, i guess some may have that priority, sure

[wind spade]

no, some people prefer simplicity over resource efficiency

[prisma kraken]

then they'd naively use the better recipe of default iron ingot

[wind spade]

or just use pure because there's water nearby and that means they don't have to find more iron

[prisma kraken]

when have you been playing the game and run out of iron?

[wind spade]

I haven't but people have

[prisma kraken]

i can say i have once

[wind spade]

they run out of iron locally

[prisma kraken]

and i was doing something very ill-concieved

i'm still looking for a where

[wind spade]

anywhere where they tapped a few nodes?

like I've sent the map already

there's tons of places where there's a group of a few nodes, and if they use some of them for one project, there may not be enough for another project

[prisma kraken]

i can categorically say that the places you circled in north forest, you're not running out of iron ever

the building challenge there is using all of it

[wind spade]

depends on what you do

like, you're basing all your assumptions on your experience

[prisma kraken]

and you are not, just theorizing

[wind spade]

I'm basing it on experience of other people that I've seen here over the years

[prisma kraken]

i don't wish to argue too much about it, but if you come across such a case in the future and there isn't more iron nearby (i'd say within 500m as reasonable range), make note of it and share it with me

btw, i staring at the map, i did find a good use-case for iron alloy

(well, it isn't good, but about as good of a use for it as you'll find)

up at the dune desert crater, there's a lot more coal than there is iron and an impure copper node that you could use to increase steel prod there with iron alloy

and generally, looking around dune desert, there's a lot of pure iron + pure copper pairs as i looked more closely

isn't a very good use for all that copper, but i could see using it for a smallish world where you're not doing a lot of hd hunting

[upbeat tide]

I have only maxed two resources. Thats uranium ore and bauxite. I cant imagine tapping and using every single iron ore node seeing as there are at least a hundred of them

[prisma kraken]

are there really that many?

hah, apparently so, scim says 120 (33/41/46 impure, normal, pure)

[upbeat tide]

Yup, iron nodes is the highest count as far as I know

[true junco]

Yeah. Iron is very abundant. And i suspect it has the most recipes that stretch its productivity in the long run too.

[vapid gorge]

if you count converting it to steel probably

[upbeat tide]

And iron wire usage some recipes at scale use a TON of wire

[prisma kraken]

yeah, but it isn't really necessary to go there until you're getting into max-resource builds... fused wire + copper alloy makes gobs of wire which is enough for most things

where iron wire plays a part is when you're needing a lot of copper sheets and fused quickwire

i'll put it in perspective... the maximum number of pasta per minute you can make with all the copper in the world is something like 60.025/min. If you make 60 ADS, 60 MFG's, 60 TPR's, you're left with enough copper to make ~55 pasta/min

[upbeat tide]

Oh my fused quickwire is insane probably make 40,50k a min with that alt for all uses

Max nuclear and plutonium rods eats alot of that and current project is 60/min supercomputers using the super state alt, tons for that too 🙂

[prisma kraken]

yeah, max nuclear gobbles quickwire, but if you're careful about how you make ECR's you can trade quartz for the caterium

[upbeat tide]

Yea I like the alt for ECR'a that uses quickwire and stators forget which one top of head

[prisma kraken]

that's a less efficient recipe, it only saves steel

[upbeat tide]

True, works for me tho

[wind spade]

I guess it depends how you value wire vs quickwire

[prisma kraken]

i mean, it really isn't a contest

[wind spade]

it isn't, it's personal valuation 🙂

[prisma kraken]

400 wire vs 300 qw

[wind spade]

yeah, basically "do I have caterium or copper/iron on location"

[prisma kraken]

for nuclear, you're going to have both copper & caterium on-hand, so using the fused alts makes sense, and it just smacks you in the head:

[wind spade]

not all stators are for nuclear 🤷‍♂️

[prisma kraken]

well for other stuff, use default + fused, lol

[wind spade]

or use whatever you prefer because the game is a sandbox with no clear "best" way to do stuff? 😛

[prisma kraken]

there is a 'best' way if you define the metrics by which to judge, but yeah, build what you want

[wind spade]

if you define metrics, you've chosen metrics by which you rate things 🙂

[prisma kraken]

measure vs rate is a tricky semantic thing, if i define a distance i'm just defining a distance w/o positive or negative valuation

qw stator definitely has a place and is kind of the 'easy' for doing ecr's for nuclear with ai limiters

[wind spade]

if you define length, you're just defining a parameter to compare by
if you define "this property must be highest for this to be best", then that's valuation that's subjective 😉

[prisma kraken]

right

i'm not going to disagree with you, just making the point that a metric doesn't necessarily assign a valuation, just a means of measuring and comparing

max nuclear is a funny beast as a build though... if you're not doing it just to do it, you're generating the power for some other purpose, and you have to be conscious of the resources

[true junco]

Yeah. I got trapped in a rabbit hole about nuclear buuldouts and recipe selection thanks to y'all again. 😆

Havent quite narrowed in on the combination I want to use yet. Lots of things line up, but not all at once. So I havent found a combo to be SatisFactory enough for me yet. Lol.

[upbeat tide]

I will say making nuclear rods is simple in comparison to plutonium. The non fissle set alone is perhaps the most complex for that stage.

50.4 burned nuclear rods makes a staggering amount of waste 🙂 so fsr sinking my 22.4 plut rods but if needed will burn em

[prisma kraken]

if you ever have a need for more than the 630gw, let me know... I'm not sure if there's anyone that's hit that mark, and i'd love to hear about it 🙂

[upbeat tide]

Probably totalexlipse or imkibitz

The bigger youtubers

[viral ravine]

instant plutonium cel is your friend

[prisma kraken]

totalxclipse wouldn't have... he doesn't build that big

[upbeat tide]

Yup and thats what I use if recall right

[vapid gorge]

wait - were we talking about this the other day?

[prisma kraken]

kibitz, i don't think he ever resorted to burning pfr's

[vapid gorge]

the base recipes are 'simpler' , but you get fewer rods.

[prisma kraken]

my gawd... the pipes, lol

[upbeat tide]

Yup was a old design, was before they changed nuclear overclock needs

[prisma kraken]

you know you have a lot of pipes when their junctions start making patterns from space, lol

[upbeat tide]

252 reactors, 252 mk1 pipes and 252 OC'd water pumps below

[prisma kraken]

hats off to you for that build

[upbeat tide]

OCD noises that some of those pattens arent perfect

Oh that pipe wall is 5 stacks high

[prisma kraken]

i'm sure

pipes like that are just so time-consuming to run

[upbeat tide]

Yup that took me 3,4 months

On and off gaming prob 30 ish hours total

Was done without blueprints too, now I have some for if wanna build out the plut reactors should make it faster

[prisma kraken]

a few playthroughs ago, i built this coal plant, and after, i said 'never again' to pipes like that

[upbeat tide]

But next to it is non fissle stuff, a sulfur house, a coal power plant which eats the water byproduct, the instant plut cells and far right is a sliver of the actual plut rod assemblers

[prisma kraken]

yeah, looks like a pretty clean setup

[upbeat tide]

Originally I had a massive turbofuel powered fuel piwer plant in that spot. It got "reposessed" and said oil is now used for a large 60 a min caterium computer build

[vapid gorge]

oh yeah, the overly aggressive Blue Pipes

[ornate echo]

15 rotors need 750 screws a minute, wich require 18,75 constructors, right?

[upbeat tide]

Thats a old screenshot its more purple now

[vapid gorge]

much less violent I'm sure 😄

[upbeat tide]

Violet... hmm ty for the color idea!

[vapid gorge]

possibly? you can use this to double check https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production

[ornate echo]

this might sound ridicoulus but is there a mistake in the website? it says that for 750 screws you need 22,5 constructors making iron rods, but its actually just 12,5

[vapid gorge]

might depend which screw recipe you're using

[ornate echo]

ohhhhh nvm it already counted the iron rods into it, forget what i said

[vapid gorge]

there's also a recipe tab that you can play around with to change thigns up with alts - I recommend if you tick an alt you remove the base recipe to force it to use the new one

[wind spade]

if you want to use that alt obviously. Otherwise you can keep both recipes and the tool will pick whatever seems "more resource efficient". But you can alwyas modify it later

[scarlet mural]

Petroleum Coke Steel, worth it ?

[vapid gorge]

it can be! Every recipe has it's uses

[true junco]

I think it is.

For what its worth, in my opinion, all alternative recipes for steel are better than the default. (And a few others generally agree with that)

[vapid gorge]

every alt recipe essentially just gives you a new tool to work with and decide when/where it'd be good for you

pffttttt as for 'all alts are better' I think that one is up for debate

[true junco]

Steel is one of those where there is no "best" but i believe strongly that there is a "worst"

[vapid gorge]

only because solid steel uses the same resource types and only needs a bit more space and power which is very cheap

I'm sure there are situations where you might prefer the base recipe - but it's probably quite rare

[wind spade]

every recipe is situational 🤷‍♂️

[ornate echo]

atleast i finaly underclock, aint hard

[true junco]

Well. I'm not arguing. I am clearly stating my opinion. 😆

[viral ravine]

Base is my most used steel recepie, maybe tied with coke ingot

I have yet to be in need of solid or compacted steel

[vapid gorge]

You don't need more stee/coal/iron on your locations? interesting.

[scarlet mural]

coke seens quite worth it cuz is something like 1.2 per iron ore

[vapid gorge]

maybe you're under some size threshhold where you don't need much steel

[scarlet mural]

but, logistically put Iron and Oil togheter seens .... a challenge for me

[viral ravine]

I need steel but not a point of feeling like resources are limited

[vapid gorge]

the other big things to consider, that a lot of people don't look at at first, is how convenient it is to use. As you just mentioned - the logistics
also refineries are huge and ugly and take up a lot of power

[wind spade]

base is least complexity

[viral ravine]

And if i do need more i relocate. None of the outposts i got eat enough steel for coal/iron numbers to be a problem.

[wind spade]

just hook two miners and boom - steel

[viral ravine]

Maybe if i were to build a mega out of them it would be

[vapid gorge]

yeah just solid steel is so convenient I tend to use it to give more options for hte area down the line

[viral ravine]

Base is convienet*

You just push ores in

Solid is an extra step for better numbers

[scarlet mural]

yeah, i'm thinking into solid steel also, cuz its 2:2 to 1

[vapid gorge]

I mean sure, but the trade off of 50% more output for a line of smelters is very nice. Then I can use the iron/coal for something else

[wind spade]

and both other recipes are different black rock for better numbers

[true junco]

In order of how much steel ive made with each method from most to least...

"Pure Iron Ingots" + "Solid Steel Ingots"
"Coke Steel Ingots"
"Compact Steel Ingots"
"Alloy Iron Ingots" + "Solid Steel Ingots"
"Default Steel"

And ive never used Base Iron ingots into Solid Steel.

[vapid gorge]

I thought Alloy Iron made more Iron ingots per iron ore than pure? could be mistaken

[viral ravine]

Once again, I see the utility, i just havent been in a situation where i felt like thats the best pick

[scarlet mural]

why u think this ? cuz more energy use for a lil better output ?

[vapid gorge]

yeah that's fair, I just like having future options open 🙂

[viral ravine]

Have to first smelt iron into ingots before putting into foundry. Therefore extra step

[vapid gorge]

and space

[true junco]

Really i feel like coke steel is what i turn to for any place that has a lot of oil and just a little bit of iron. It just makes a good amount of steel without importing iron.

Good examples are places like the Blue Crater.

[wind spade]

basically all options are valid if you like what the give

[scarlet mural]

space here isnt exactly a challenge, i think how i desing the factory isnt a issue rn

[wind spade]

(which is true for pretty much everything in the game)

[scarlet mural]

it will be in once i reach later game once i need a extreme huge area

[true junco]

It makes more iron ingots per iron ore. But it takes a lot of copper and i very rarely have an over abundance of copper anywhere I need steel.

[scarlet mural]

cuz i tend to made a super centralized factory instead a splited

[vapid gorge]

but in that example you'd get more out of Solid Steel for hte iron content wouldn't you? since you can't use ingots for coke steel

[vapid gorge]

ah thought your list was purely based off iron. Gets a bit wonky when you have to list with other resources included

[viral ravine]

Coke steel is super convenient for disposing of hor in factories that.combine oil and steel

Which after a certain point is a common occurence

[true junco]

Exactly.

My list above is not about their productivity. Its about how often ive used it.

[vapid gorge]

see, you can get the recycled plastic/rubber recipes early enough that having to deal with the 'waste' was never a thing for me

sink a bit of coke for a while and then demolish it and turn it all into HOR

[true junco]

Indeed. I just find that everywhere there is Oil, there is more oil than i want to use for any one thing. So using some of it to get good milage out of local iron is a thing i do often.

[viral ravine]

Correct but since you have hor either way, you might just put some into steel since more often than not its easier to make coke than to bring coal

[vapid gorge]

early oil for me is extremely temporary - I hate making anything dependent on it

I just slap down a few dirty refineries to get me through the tiers

[viral ravine]

What i said holds true regardless of tier (with the exception of before oil obv)

[true junco]

So ill usually make a good sized HOR/DF line into a lot of power, and Residual Rubber/Plastic the polymer resin byproduct of the HOR. then ill use some Oil for coke for aluminum and steel. And Residual that waste PR. And some time after that i start doing the recycling loops.

[viral ravine]

In my later factories i turn hor thats left from steel production into fuel with diluted

[true junco]

The plastic and rubber goes to stretching the steel out further thru whatever manufacturing paths feature a lot of plastic and rubber.

[viral ravine]

Not a big fan of recycling with fuel, rarely sees use for me

[vapid gorge]

Bigger builds make it very useful. A lot of alts throw rubber/plastic into the mix as a resource extender

'Want to use 30% less alum on this item? throw some plastic in'

[viral ravine]

Thats true and i use those alts

[vapid gorge]

Size also comes into it though

[viral ravine]

I just make the plastic/rubber from oil and dilute all the hor

Cant go wrong with making more power

[vapid gorge]

it's perfectly reasonable to have set ups with the alts and just not need more than the less complex oil stuff produces

I've got a couple complexes planned out that need a LOT of plastic/rubber though

[viral ravine]

Then again i didnt get to a point of extracting a 100% of locally available oil but still needing more products

I can see the recycles getting vital in real big building

[true junco]

Default rubber and default plastic are 2 recipes i almost never use. Last 2 play throughs i stacked HDs before getting to peyrochemicals and as soon as i could unlock HOR and recycled alts i did.

[vapid gorge]

yeah the recipe chains make such a big difference 3:2 vs 3:9

just a casual ramp up to 450% output

[upbeat tide]

Diluted fuel, HOR alt, recycled rubber/plastic, and residual rubber = incredible system

I may have a factory that does that for 3600 each

[prisma kraken]

haha, yeah, probably the thing that you're supposed to do is scrap together a plant using poly resin in-between for its moderately increased yield

maybe in the context of rebalancing, what would make sense is to make recycled rubber & plastic blender recipes (that take water & hor, but otherwise leave the ratios unchanged), which would simplify the building of the recycled loop considerably, but defer its use until phase 4

[vapid gorge]

it IS a lot of work

[upbeat tide]

It is but worth it. Also if you balance your setup for 600 a min outputs the refinery ratios get less crazy too

Added screenshots of my recycled loop setup into #screenshots

[wind spade]

just nerf alt HOR

[icy saffron]

what is the setup for a coal power source with 2 pure vains mk2 miners

[wind spade]

check how much coal you make, check how much coal you need per generator, divide the two numbers 😛

[icy saffron]

is coal or or soild biofuel better for a explorer?

[wind spade]

solid biofuel is 450 MJ, coal is 300 MJ

[vapid gorge]

coal is easier to automatically aquire though

[true junco]

Coal. Because full automation always wins imo.

[static zenith]

Foundry asks for 45 coal and 45 iron but that makes a mess of my conveyor logistics.

Fix:

Underfeed the foundries.
120 line split into 3 lines of 40.
feed 3 foundry.
combine output back to 120 line.

so much better. . .

split 120 line into 2 lines of 60
take 60 to perfect feed a beam constructor.

split other 60 into 2 lines of 30.
feed 2 pipe constructor

[vapid gorge]

could just underclock one to need 30 alonger the manifold shrug

[static zenith]

underclocking ?

maybe im still too new to know these tricks yet xD

[vapid gorge]

ah, have you looked at teh MAM yet?

[static zenith]

ever so slightly. ive not yet taken the time to go deep into it. just whatever i have found around i drop into it

[vapid gorge]

ahhh ok, the MAM has some pretty critical stuff, if you research slugs in it you can unlock changing the speed of machines

so since your belt only moves 120 you could leave 2x at 45 up to 90, then clock down the last one to only need 30

clocking is probably the single most useful tool for factory management

[static zenith]

right but what about in regards to late game when you want all the possible resources? wont you just be overlocking to the max and spliting the line anyways

ruining the logistics of the factory on those lines tha function via underclocks

would it not to better to split the belts to feed the machine ?

[vapid gorge]

so in regards to 'getting most resources' the only impact you can have with that is Over clocking miners and extractors

as that actually gets you more stuff per min

as for clocking machines, over clocking them only saves you space

so when you're using clocking on machiners or generators it's purely design choice

[static zenith]

oooh i see. youre saying clock the constructors themselves. cool.

i was thining just mi ners could be clocked

[vapid gorge]

just about everything can! 😄
but miners/extractors actually provide mechanical benefits of 'more stuff'

where as clocking machines is better for logistic managment and overall design

so for example you could over clock a smelter to 250% - which is fine, but all it does is save you space. And there's essentially infinite of that

[static zenith]

yea that sounds great for what im trying to do in this game so far lol

[vapid gorge]

As you're newish to the game, biggest tip: don't stress about it. Assume every time you build something you'll realise you could have done 10 thigns better and use it for the next factory. You won't have a good idea of what yo uwant to do until you know what you CAN do, if you're really into the game that might mean going through the tiers three or four times

[static zenith]

i got ahead of myself and put togeaher a perfect feed system of 20 foundries to 15 steel beam constructors and it wants like 900 coal and iron per min. just bonkers. i was only running mk 2 conveyurs and mk 1 miners.

had to rush a noodle mess to get my phases and unlocks done lol now im in a much better place. MAM next!

[vapid gorge]

get them miners upgraded and leave yourself space for more machines 🙂 building vertically with floors can help with that

[static zenith]

im not stressed at all! im enjoying learning the game and really enjoying the early phases. making a mess and making it better is the way to go. im super ocd though so i do waist a lot of time on perfection that is not needed.

i dont want to look at a mess every day you know? xD i jus cant

[vapid gorge]

fair 😄

There's a good webpage that has some concepts you might find useful

google 'a satisfactory way of building' has good tips, especially about building layout

[static zenith]

im probably way over planning and over doing everything for my first playthrough but atleast ill have a really cool world. i think the map will be big enough for me to continue to evolve here indefinitely. even after ive started new saves

[vapid gorge]

the map is massive, and there's far more resources available than you could use and not have your computer catch on fire

[static zenith]

my pc will be a bottle neck in the near future >.>

the game runs amazing though im super impressed with the optimization

[vapid gorge]

depends - as long as you don't build massive stuff in one spot it's not bad

it's one of the reasons a lot of people suggest avoiding mega factories

[static zenith]

im so bad for that though ..
before finishing phase 2 i have a fully built 164 coal generator plant not even plugged in and fed. the water is settup ready but not the coal.

still running on a 2000 watt coal setup xD more then enough for a while im just silly

[vapid gorge]

164 coal gens and you don't have mk2 miners? that sounds painful

heck the most painful part is thinking of hte bio mass you have to collect waiting to turn on coal power

[static zenith]

honestly though i dont mind building a massive layered factory just for looks. maybe running a small portion of it to serve my needs and just expand it to fill a space and look a certain way.

i love the look of pipes and wires and conveyurs all neatly stacked and repeated. like an engine or a computer chip mother board xD

i have a biomass factory so big that i never even fed half of it to get into my coal power..

[vapid gorge]

I mean that is ONE way to do it xD

I suppose the real down side is that it just really pushes back getting access to new tiers

[static zenith]

i mean i like big but i like compact too . so thats mega factory if i run it lol

one day ill turn on a power switch and ruin a save file

[vapid gorge]

well the more objects in one spot teh harder it'll be on your computer. Generally for performance you probably want to link up hubs across the map. Nodes are scattered in a way to support that too

[static zenith]

oh it really did .. if i never rushed it today i would of been waiting forever for decent setups .. im learning to rush certain stages it just makes sence

[vapid gorge]

but probably one of hte hardest things of massive set ups in one spot is practice having a good layout that you're happy with. #design-and-architecture message

Ah yeah coal power is definitely something to rush.

[static zenith]

link hubs? i thought could only build one HUB

[vapid gorge]

sorry, factory hub, like creating a complex in another zone and moving items back and forth between them

[static zenith]

okay yea like personal storage or office spaces for sure

[vapid gorge]

kinda?

you haven't gotten there but Heavy Modular Frames are fairly intensive, so I'm making a large factory in a distant desert and will ship them somewhere else for further use

[static zenith]

ive got like a big storage warehouse factory. the idea is to have a big storage for every item but cause im silly im not shipping anything in. just raw materials and constructing it all on site.

so this building has all my stuff up to steel pipes so far. i also have crafting and stuff there. one day itl be designed to look nice inside xD left lots of space.

then ive got like a tractor garage cause i like to drive around, i built it with tons of storage and crafting and my real hub.

the two locations are sort of close because i have not gone too far yet. if i were to setup somewhere far i would forsure have to settup a .. hub xD

[vapid gorge]

yeah a lot of people like doing a central storage - not something I care for but certainly an option

I'm vaguely tempted to make a very small factory that produces a tiny bit of many many items using a few alt recipes. But not high prirority for me

[static zenith]

i like being able to combine the overflow of one recipe into the working of the next and make a big line of systems work perfectly togeather. it was fun up to reinforced plates lol now its kind of .. not doable anymore

got to make the same factory using its overflow into the same factory 200 times to make one factory that has decent output of one little thing xD

[vapid gorge]

sure it is, especially if you don't mind machines not running at 100%

this was my last starter base made a bit of everything except nuclear stuff

top floors were getting a bit messy at the end 😄

[static zenith]

yea it gets more and more crazy to centralize it xD

[vapid gorge]

it was fairly tidy inside mind you

[static zenith]

i dont mind not running 100% but i dont wanna run less then like 80%

seems odd xD id rather logistic it out. but if the logistics are wild af. ill take a happy medium

like 3 foundry from 120 line is so much nicer to me lol

[vapid gorge]

Ah well the idea of this base was 1 pure node dedicated to each basic item, having room to expand with new tech, and just belting items to new sections for new parts as needed. With containers to catch extra stuff.

Honestly 70% of the factory was idle most of the time

[static zenith]

yea my parts factory sits idle cause it produces faster then i use

[vapid gorge]

and it's not a terrible way to go - it stores a bunch of stuff you can quickly use for what you unlock next

[static zenith]

then the overflow logistics get flooded. kinda bugs me cause i go upstairs and im like why on earth does 1 of 15 smelter have a stockpile of iron waiting lol

[vapid gorge]

Yeah I don't bother with perfect systems unless I'm making a permanent factory

[static zenith]

is it okay to feed a fluid water system the exact amount ?

for example 2 coal gens being fed exactly 100 water per min.

i feel like i need to keep my lines full so i over feed it o.O but its a computer game lol

[vapid gorge]

should need 90 pm

and yes it is

[static zenith]

they want 50 each

[vapid gorge]

!wikisearch coal_generator

[brisk shore]

https://satisfactory.wiki.gg/index.php?search=coal_generator

[static zenith]

yea i figured lol fluid dynamics .. 50 water should be 50 water in the game.
just real life dont work like that lol

[vapid gorge]

no wiki says 45 and I'm sure I would have heard if they had made a change like that

[static zenith]

o.o

[vapid gorge]

they probably aren't going to make any changes to recipes until close to release

[static zenith]

now i got to check lol

ahh i see it holds 50. consumes 45

[vapid gorge]

and fluid dynamics aren't awful in the game as long as you're careful.

pipes are belts so you can't just lay them willy nilly. But there's a few simple rules to follow to create consistent pipe networks

[static zenith]

pipes have all seem to work out first try for me tbh

[vapid gorge]

first pipe systems like coal? as long as you're paying attention to pipe throughput limits it's easy. Its later that there are tactics to use

[static zenith]

i just mae sure like conveyors not to bottle neck the system. i can send 240 through one pipe. i can also stick another 120 on that line but ill want to add a second line to take the extra water cause one line will only carry 300.

yea i have a decent operating coal plant

[vapid gorge]

things get a touch more finicky later - like making sure you've flooded a system before turning it on completely, and making a manifold loop of the feeding pipe

[static zenith]

i guess i just do those things naturally xD thats exactly how i run it

can i screen shot in this channel ? lol

[vapid gorge]

yup, just about any channel but the main one

[static zenith]

#screenshots message

half top fed half bottom fed. sort of messy xD i think its 28 gens

[vapid gorge]

yeah seems fine - but I'd avoid using the buffers

[static zenith]

over fed water

[vapid gorge]

buffers can create issues.

And once you flood a system you can't 'over feed' it

[static zenith]

the buffer seems useless. its just always full and never empties cause im over feeding water. i dont see why itd be used unless perfect feed causes it fluctuate so you buffer it with a storage tank? but thats not the case

[vapid gorge]

currently the only real use for fluid buffers is for fluid trains

anywhere else they either don't do anything or cause issues

[static zenith]

yea its just water storage D

it will probably be a buffer in 1.0 but now its just stor age

[vapid gorge]

well the main reason to avoid them is like you said - if they aren't entirely full it can stutter a system with back flow - and if everything is full you don't need a fluid buffer as pipes are like tiny fluid buffers themselves

Similar to valves - they don't have any use that can't be easily avoided

[static zenith]

i always top feed my pipes as well so they hold a load of water in them al lthe time

*if gravity fee dis a thin g

[vapid gorge]

I bottom feed - not generally suggested but you can overcome the issues

[static zenith]

wow my typing tonight lol

[vapid gorge]

and yeah fluids prefer lower pipes

[static zenith]

wow thats compact ❤️

[vapid gorge]

highly clipped.

You used to be able to clip refineries that much vanilla but need a mod now

[static zenith]

i hate that machines cant clip eachother i wanna stack everything so tight lol

my coupon machine ;]

120 rods 120 plates and 240 screws. been running for ages lol

[vapid gorge]

but a bit of space helps with layout and design 😄

[static zenith]

yea layout and design it. then cram it all in a tiny box with an in and an out 🙂

[vapid gorge]

xD

[static zenith]

im off to bed, nice chatting 🙂

[vapid gorge]

have a good night!

[rancid sapphire]

ur just kina bad bud get better kid ur fkin dumb

[wind spade]

Ummm, maybe be nicer?

[frosty owl]

Definetly be nicer

[feral vine]

I have been sinking 20K points/min for approx 20 hours, and I'm making 0 progress now 😂

Time for crazy factories I guess

[feral vine]

I got tons of quickwire automated, I probably should make them into ai limiters for widespread use of smart splitters

[wind spade]

where do you want to use smart splitters in such a high quantity?

[prisma kraken]

ai limiters are actually really good for points early on

[frosty owl]

Yes

[scarlet mural]

in this i can expect a 1560 output right ?
its 2 Mk5 or somehow conteiners slowdown the output ?

[frosty owl]

Yes, yes and no.
Items move "istantly" inside machines, including buffers, splitters, mergers...

[scarlet mural]

i see, arigathanx

[frosty owl]

Interestingly, as belt-to-belt connections can be problematic with very long belts and low FPS, having buffers can actually lead to more logistical efficiency

[scarlet mural]

i did that cuz i like to have a stock, even knowing that its unecessary if u use less than u produce, but i still like to make a stock of each product i do

[brittle kayak]

Containers reduce latency but have zero effect on actual throughput.

[ashen stirrup]

Will this be fine?

[wanton dawn]

Maybe slap an extra pump on it.

[ashen stirrup]

I actually happened to have the stuff on hand for a mk2 pump, so there we go

[deft lichen]

Yes, up to 22 m is fine

The recommended level is less than the actual applied head lift, which is 22 m for mk1 and 55 m for mk2

[true junco]

I would still stick to the recommendation (20m and 50m respectively) Ive tried to push the 22m thing but ended up with the top pipe only being 50% full because it only had the lift to get to the bottom half of the horizontal pipe. And a half full pipe cannot transmit the full flow.

I just wish the hologram of then next recommended pump placement worked for me. I havent seen that hologram since U5 lol.

[static zenith]

the hologram for next pipe worked fine for me. it shows up best along vertical pipe lines. alon g horizontal lines it goes past 20m and gets glitchy

[ashen stirrup]

I've been using draw.io to plan out how much space I'll need for a given production line, and it's been working out quite nicely so far. The one on the right is an older one from when I was planning for compacted coal, and the one on the left is one I made just now for an HMF factory.

The smallest gridlines are 1 m, the next size up are blocks of 4 m, and the big dotted lines are 8 foundations or 64 m apart. If one wanted to get even fancier, it can be configured so that there are snap points at the right spots for conveyors coming out of each machine, but I haven't found a need for that yet.

[wind spade]

personally I think the best planning tool is... the game itself 🙂

you have full refund on everything

[hard tendon]

I tried more than 30 times to get this recipe, but I still couldn't get it. Also im currently on Tier 7, the Caterium research is not over yet. The last 2 research remain. Did i missing something?

I know recipes are difficult to get what you want. But not less than 30 attempts. Also mostly im seeing around 6 recipes not different one.

I feel like I'm doing something wrong because I keep seeing the same recipes.

Sometimes you need to make a totem 😄

[deft lichen]

it's funny when people ask how to get a certain alt and it's just bad luck

[prisma kraken]

tbh, you can game the rng for recipes to be almost deterministic

[deft lichen]

you can game the order by unlocking them as soon as they become available

but you can't game an already large pool

[wind spade]

just unlock a recipe every time to reduce the pool, never reroll

[prisma kraken]

yes, and deferring the hub unlocks until you get the right recipe

i've been working on doing an early game 'route' for grabbing all the recipes i want if anyone is interested

[hard tendon]

looks insteresting

I didn't collect a hard disk because I was playing on my own without rushing. That's why I think I collected 3-4 hard drives until I reached tier 7. So but finally i got :3

[prisma kraken]

the basic timeframe from tutorial start to first hd is about an hour to get the tutorial done and enough factory established with logistics & field research unlocked, and then you just keep the hd's rolling, after 4 drives, you're guaranteed to have the 3 recipes from the starting pool that you'd care about (cast screw, stitched plate, and copper alloy), so at about the 1.5 hr mark you can expand the pool with part assembly and start making smart plate

depending on the rng, somewhere in that half hour you take a run through the spire coast for the 5 new free drives and some slugs, optionally picking up 2 rotor drives, and you're sitting at a cache of about 4-6 drives at the end of phase 1, unlock steel before coal, grab solid steel and whatever other steel recipes (steel rod, steel rotor, steel screw) if you wish them and possibly deplete the pool

at which point you can unlock caterium and grab fused wire and possibly fused quickwire

by about the 2.5 hr mark you have everything you need

part of it all is setting up a decent biofuel 'factory' that you can keep full to hang out on biomass

the big thing is just deferring the coal unlock for as long as you can, and continuously be researching a drive

which isn't very onerous to do, setting up 10 or 20 burners running on sbf burns so slowly that it isn't a big chore keeping them filled

the thing i'm trying to figure out atm is if there's a better place in the nf vicinity to pick up some mod frames, since the steel unlock needs them, i'm right now using the crash site that unlocks with black powder for it, and i can't figure out how to get some black powder researched and made on the route where i'm close to them

part of the trickiness too is getting the parachute out on the first hd expedition to increase speed and mobility instead of going for bladerunners

[ornate echo]

i have 4 uneven lines of screws making up 750 together, my belts can do 270, is there any system that allows me to make 4 belts with screws that always even out?

aka i need 3 lines giving 200 and one line giving 150

[wind spade]

well first of all, can't you just use the uneven belts? use whatever amount is on the belt and be done with it
other option is to make the belts even when merging them

(otherwise you can build a balancer if you want, but in 99% of cases it's not necessary since you can do one of the above)

[ornate echo]

well not every amount of belt gives what i need, merging and all is what i guess im looking for

[wind spade]

well my suggestion was so that you build it in a way that each belt has what you need

so e.g. if you have a belt with 150, you make machines that eat 150 in total

[ornate echo]

okay i have 4 belts giving, 160, 110, 240, 160, and i need to get that into 4 belts, it sshould even out the 3 x 200 and 1 x 15

so yeah how would that system look

just want my precius 30 rotors

[wind spade]

I mean... exactly as I said - if you have 160 on belt, hook that to machine(s) that eat 160

[ornate echo]

well but not all belts deliver the exact amount, some have more and some less that needed

[vapid gorge]

it'll balance out over time

[ornate echo]

i need a way to put 4 belts in a system that gives 4 belts that even out

[wind spade]

it doesn't matter, if you have belt with 160 and machines that need 160, there's no extra

[ornate echo]

well not everything is directly connected thats the issue, due to my limited belt speed

[vapid gorge]

if you make a system that eats 160 it will consume 160 evenly

also if you want 4 even amounts on a belt? clock machines and merge them so you have 4 equal amounts

[ornate echo]

no no no, i already got them machines

as i said i have this

[wind spade]

I mean you can remove them 🤷‍♂️

[ornate echo]

i need to work with this

[vapid gorge]

or change the clocking

[wind spade]

or change their clock speed

[vapid gorge]

or make a system that uses the 160 yo uwere talking about

[ornate echo]

no i have the exact amount of machines ot make what i need

[wind spade]

you can still change clock speed to match the amounts on belts

[ornate echo]

why would i lock clock speed, i need their max production

[vapid gorge]

you have them set to 250%?

[wind spade]

if you have two machines at 100% and you clock one to 50% and one to 150%, you have still the same amount of production, but the machines need different amounts

[ornate echo]

what are you saying, im not going to clock any machines, they already make the perfect amount i need, i need to even out what i have, not change the sources

[wind spade]

see this

[vapid gorge]

you can clock them so you have an even amount on the belts xD

[ornate echo]

im not going to clock anything if i could just split it, it would be so much trouble to oversee

cant i just have a system to even out everything please

[wind spade]

it's much more trouble to actually balance than just changing one number

[vapid gorge]

split all of them 4 times then merge one of each and have a giant mess, congrats, the biggest messiest solution

[ornate echo]

why cant i just take 4 belts into an system that gives me 4 belts that balance each other, i just need to connect 4 so they even out

[wind spade]

there's no "overseeing", no anything.

if you have belt that has 160, clock the machines that eat from that belt so that they eat 160.

[vapid gorge]

you can, it's the biggest messiest and imo dumbest solution

[wind spade]

it's literally the least effort solution to just change clockspeed

[vapid gorge]

no no, they want to take up huge amounts of space and time greeny

[vapid gorge]

this is what you were looking for - go do it

"split all of them 4 times then merge one of each"

[ornate echo]

okay so im just gonna list what 4 connections i have, i need 3 belts giving 200 and one 150, i got them all doing screws, belts consists of following: 6 constrcuots, 4, constucors, 4 construcots, 4,75 construcots

[vapid gorge]

doesn't matter go do the solution you want #math-and-meta message

literally what you were asking for even though there were simpler solutions

[wind spade]

you need the belts that way because you're looking at what you have now

if you change clock speeds, you need different amounts on belts

if you change the clock speeds based on what belts you already have, you don't need to do anything else

[ornate echo]

nevermind i think i found an easy solution, i will just rearrange everything so that each lines gives the exact amount i need

[wind spade]

... which is what I was saying from the beginning

[vapid gorge]

WOW

[ornate echo]

thankies i guess

literally easier and takes 5 minutes

[wind spade]

yeah as opposed to those 30 minutes spent making a balancer

@polar crystal here's some info on alt recipe picking #math-and-meta message

[hybrid ingot]

im trying to build a pryamid with a foundation 50x50 how many layors will there be?

[wind spade]

depends on angle of the sides

[hybrid ingot]

and what layor would be the half way point

im useing 4m ramps

[vapid gorge]

math

at this point it's just counting

[noble timber]

I'll figure that out for you if you help me find this eigen vector 🤣

[hybrid ingot]

whats a eigen vector

[vapid gorge]

just count up the meters

[hybrid ingot]

ive found that it is about 25 4m up

[fading swan]

Whats the best place on the map to make a fuel power plant?

[wind spade]

near fuel source

[prisma kraken]

the coastlines that have oil are pretty nice for it, lotta open flat space over the water; good for placing the generators which have a large footprint

[fading swan]

I have a temporary one (about 4k mhw) but I wanna make one thats much bigger and more efficient

[fading swan]

What about building up?

8 or 9 generators per floor

[prisma kraken]

vertical pipes are sorta icky to do, you really want all the consumers for a pipe manifold on the same level

[fading swan]

would it be inefficient to use packagers?

[prisma kraken]

i mean, you can, they're not that expensive to run, just a hassle to belt and then pipe and make the containers

[fading swan]

alr

well i'll have to start working on that as soon as I finish my steel factory

[prisma kraken]

i've seen people pull of crazier 😛

[viral ravine]

I'd argue its one of the best spots for anything oil

At least, imo

[prisma kraken]

tbh, for where your power curve is, i might suggest just making more coal power

[fading swan]

i have about 1.7k coal power rn

also coal power isnt as cool

[prisma kraken]

its a lot quicker to build than fuel

esp if you don't have a factory for computers or mod frames yet

[fading swan]

i have plenty of both

[prisma kraken]

fair enough 🙂

[viral ravine]

Is it tho? Coal has you plug in coal and water

Whereas fuel gen is just connect oil to refinery, connect fuel to generator

[prisma kraken]

i can get 3 gw of power from coal in about a 45 minute build, giving myself a generous amount of time

you can't really do so with fuel because it takes a couple of resupply trips

generators and refineries just don't stack very well in your inventory

[viral ravine]

Oh you meant resource wise

I ignored resource cost in my assumption of quickness

[prisma kraken]

yeah, that's what i meant... and if you're handcrafting stuff like computers or hmf's for it... yeah

i also find that upgrading the coal power plant at that stage of the game with some powershards and mk4 belts is about the quickest way to get some more power

[wheat olive]

I have some buildings boosted as far as they can go and they're producing like "2.5" of something. When I watch production I never see more than 2 come out per batch. I thought maybe it would alternate between churning out 2 or 3 of the product. Are any decimal amounts of final product wasted, or it some how still works out and is calculated via a time savings rather than the literal number of items per batch?

[wind spade]

the 2.5 is per minute

not per craft

[vapid gorge]

bvit late but - the only way you get 'more efficient' is with the more efficient recipes like the HOR alt and Diluted fuel alt - and any spot next to oil is fine

As for building in floors? while building fluid stuff CAN cause issues with pipes and flow - the way you avoid that is to send one pipe manifold to one floor - don't split it among many floors.

[wheat olive]

That's good to know. I didn't think the game would do me dirty like that.

[wind spade]

there are two numbers - per craft and per minute

per craft does not change ever
per minute changes as machine speed changes

[wheat tundra]

Is my understand correct, that all buildings have some idle drain of a tenth of a MW?

So a power consumption of 5000 MW, when my world seems to be doing nothing, could partly be explained by having a lot of buildings?

Although, I would have expected less than 10,000 buildings, which would be only 1000 MW

[vapid gorge]

0.1mw idle iirc

[wheat tundra]

Ok, so no way that accounts for the 5000 MW I can't account for. But does explain some of it

[true junco]

What have you accounted for?

Pumps? Trains? Trainstations? Truck stations? Lights?

I couldnt begin to tell you where all my power consumption is from to be honest.

[vapid gorge]

awesome sinks will keep them going too

[true junco]

That would be a first thing to verify. What is always running.

[sacred orbit]

so i'm using the 4-1 water extractor to coal plant design here. i'm wondering about possibly overclocking when i get higher belts and pipes. at current, eight plants using 120 coal requires 360 water. if i overclock the plants, do the requirements they need increase linearly? like, all eight at 200% require 240 coal and 720 water? and would i need more than 3 water extractors to provide all that water?

[prisma kraken]

yes

i routinely build coal in this 8+3 configuration, and push the clock speeds to 250 on the extractors and generators:

the only thing you need to ever upgrade is the feeding belts

the pipe manifold if you feed the sides and the middle will support 900 water from the three fully OC'd extractors with mk1 pipes

[sacred orbit]

don't MK1 pipes only handle 300 fluid?

[prisma kraken]

they can only transfer 300, which is the most any segment of the manifold needs to transfer. you can inject more in after you take some out

there's a spiffy diagram of it in mcgalleon's pipe manual if you're interested in the math

[sacred orbit]

so how do ya'll do mass storage?

this is nearly enough storage for all the Automated Wire i'll ever need.

here's a better version.

the math works out to 25.3 industrial containers

@median heath this is your fault for answering my question about how many would be needed overall.

[prisma kraken]

i thought you only needed ~7500 autowire for phase 4, isn't that more like 3 containers?

[fierce berry]

https://satisfactory.wiki.gg/wiki/Space_Elevator

This page gives the exact number of each project part you need

You'll need 60000 Automated Wiring for Stage 4

[prisma kraken]

ahh, i'm off by a magnitude

[fierce berry]

Automated Wiring is also used to craft more complex project components

This man is attempting to store all the Automated Wiring he will ever need

[prisma kraken]

my mistake was thinking an isc could hold 24000, not 2400

one thing i'm going to point out is that the components that use autowire take a really long time to make, so pipelining it rather than batching it is a good™️ idea

[fierce berry]

Some people just want to treat Project Assembly components as something they don't need to automate, just make a limited quantity of

Then they jam them into overclocked assemblers and stuff to create the more advanced components

[prisma kraken]

yeah, but store the acu's, not the autowire

[fierce berry]

Oh is he already at that Phase?

[prisma kraken]

pretty close if he's got isc's unlocked

[median heath]

This is pretty much what I did the last time I automated Project Parts.

[prisma kraken]

i thought he didn't automate project parts 😄

[sacred orbit]

acu's?

[prisma kraken]

adaptive control units the phase 3 part that takes autowire as component

[sacred orbit]

cannot craft yet

[static zenith]

if youre crafting the auto wire for phase upgrade why not just feed the space elevator ? why make mass storage for it?

[ashen stirrup]

Because even though for phase 2 you feed it to the elevator, in phases 3 and 4 it's an ingredient for other things that need to go into the elevator.

[static zenith]

oh lord lol

but my point still st ands. why not feed the next machine ? xD

[ashen stirrup]

The line probably doesn't exist yet

Anyways, the best way to do it imo is just not to make them until you're building the factory for the next space elevator parts, then just make them fresh in that factory

[deft lichen]

If a manifold that feeds machines on both sides is called double, how do we called stacked manifolds?
Intuitively those would be also called double/triple/quadruple manifolds

[frosty owl]

"Layered" manifolds?

[wind spade]

stacked manifolds 😛

[frosty owl]

What's the stacksize for belts though?

[raven saddle]

Did you know that 36 nuclear plants at 100% make 360 waste and not 1800? Because my nuclear spreadsheet was wrong and i never double checked. Good news is I can process 5x more waste

[wind spade]

which waste?

[raven saddle]

Uranium Waste, just for recycling

[wind spade]

then yeah, 10 waste/min per plant

[raven saddle]

It’s 50 per 5 minutes which I misread when setting up my spreadsheet

[prisma kraken]

that's a happy mistake to have caught!

[primal flicker]

I'm going to make the "mistake" of overbuilding coal power again. Won't be any left in the area for steel.

[prisma kraken]

you can always overbuild coal power on the other side of the map 🙂

[primal flicker]

Just have to figure out my preferred arrangement for 160 coal gens.... 80 for now, until Mk3 miners.

I'm staying along the bottom of the map for now. Going to go through T5/6 in Blue Crater, this time.

So I decided to completely max the 4 coal nodes there, and use oil alts in production.

[prisma kraken]

i'm a big fan of just burning one of the spots with 4 normal coal nodes, build 64 generators, and clock them to 250 as belts and miner's allow

[primal flicker]

I already have 48 at the crater/canyon lake.
Used one node for steel to complete the second SE package.
This one I'll build double so that all I have to do is upgrade the miners and their output belts to being the rest of the generators online, later.

[prisma kraken]

yeah, i do like getting a nice amt of coal power established so i'm not chasing the demand and get forced into fuel before phase 4

also, i think burning the excess coke in phase 3 from your intro petroleum build makes a lot of sense to do

[sacred orbit]

Distance to elevator

[deft lichen]

the question is not necessarily how to call the type, but how to distinguish "double manifold" between double horizontally or having two layers

[true junco]

It's my 2nd manifold twice removed...

[prisma kraken]

i kind of punt on the term manifold being the catch-all for arbitrary belt topologies

[deft lichen]

the wiki page on manifolds is pretty lacking compared to knowledge we have here, so I'm looking how to improve that, and ran into this naming problem

the problem with Discord replacing forums is that information about a subject is no longer freely available on the internet, but only in hard to find conversations

triple and quadruple manifolds are unambiguous

[lime wadi]

If you ever wanted Docs.json in spreadsheet format, I built a macro that generates it from the latest version.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Ma7j4bJ0mEN7jAQlGnt8B_zNqetRypxuyduyMG19qmU/edit?usp=sharing
Just thought I'd share in case anyone wanted to go nuts with IMPORTSHEET() 😄

[deft lichen]

oh this is nice, I can finally see what's actually in there

[lime wadi]

Currently regenerating, bear with me

[deft lichen]

it will lag much less if you replace /edit with /htmlview

it doesn't like having that many tabs though

[lime wadi]

Ill look when my script finishes executing lol

Just making a quick workaround

[primal flicker]

I'm skipping intro-petroleum tho 😆

[primal flicker]

Move the elevator?

[sacred orbit]

Bruh you can just do that?

[deft lichen]

of course

the HUB and spelevator can just be dismantled with no loss of progress

[primal flicker]

Second and third order manifolds. But I can't see a case for third order subdivision outside of "max the map" scale builds.

[deft lichen]

Manufacturers use 4-level manifolds for 4-ingredient parts

[primal flicker]

I straight dismantle my elevator as soon as parts are sent. Build it again after I start making parts for the next package

[deft lichen]

aha, I guess n-level could work

[primal flicker]

I mean orders of tree branching. A single belt feeding a single machine is a 0 order manifold.
A standard manifold is of the 1st order.
A belt that branches onto 4 manifolds, each feeding 4 machines is a 2nd order manifold.
Etc

[deft lichen]

ahh, yeah that's yet another thing

you mean a mix between manifold and balancer?

= opposite of an injection manifold

[primal flicker]

No. A manifold of manifolds. The reverse of an injection manifold.

[prisma kraken]

hey, if that's your thing 😛

[deft lichen]

I see

do you use that kind of arrangement?

[primal flicker]

I haven't yet. It's more of a thought experiment right now. But you could use injection of parallel bus belts to extend something like that.

[true junco]

I usually reffer to any manifold of manifolds as an array.

[primal flicker]

My first oil extractor on this file will utilize all necessary alts to support adhered plate, steel coated plate, insulated oscillator, and caterium computer production.

[primal flicker]

That works too. As long as it's a commonly recognized label.

[proud lion]

How can i fix my water pipes flow rate going up and down constantly

It was staying up at 300 but after a while it starts to fluctuate

[true junco]

I have use arrays often enough. Almost always dictated by belt thruput limits. Like if a recipe tends to hit the belt limit on 1 input, when i build lines of machines with their input manifolds, those thruput limited inputs will be their own manifolds. But the lower thruput inputs can all be fed by another manifold that runs past the start of each of the machine lines, so a manifold feeding each line's input manifold.

[prisma kraken]

pre-fill pipes

[proud lion]

So should i wait for them to all fill?

[prisma kraken]

i generally recommend that, yes if nothing else it aids in debugging problems

[proud lion]

Alright i have plenty of pumps so my only theory is the fluid buffers i have before my coal generators is causing issues

[true junco]

Things that have been known to help...

• Prefill pipes
• Loop manifolds
• Do not feed machines from below
• do not use valves and buffers
• check headlifts

[prisma kraken]

pipes behave a little differently when they are completely full

because there isn't any room in them for 'slosh', the coming and going of fluid follows a single direction better

[proud lion]

Wdym by dont feed machines from below?

[prisma kraken]

liquids like flowing downward and prioritize inputs at the lowest altitude, if you're pushing fluids upward, especially to multiple levels of consumers, it is common to see the higher ones starve

[prisma kraken]

quick addendum as step 0... check your math

[true junco]

"Feeding from below" means you ran the pipe manifold beneath the machines and the branch pipes have to go up to get to the machine input.

Generally you should run your pipe manifolds above the inputs of machines and send the branch pipes downwards towards the inlets.

[proud lion]

Alright i currently have my pipes going up a bit to reach the coal generators which i could fix

[prisma kraken]

i think you should be ok with that, but the pumps may need to be placed a bit differently

[primal flicker]

I already know this is a "stupid question"
BUT
What happens if you feed liquid to a buffer above the level of the machine inputs, then the output of the buffer drops below floor level to feed up to them?

[proud lion]

Would you be able to join my world to help

[prisma kraken]

i think it actually depends on how full the buffer is, lol, iirc they provide headlift proportional to how full they are

[proud lion]

Im completely lost to be honest

[proud lion]

I removed them for now but i can re add them

[deft lichen]

if you don't mind rebuilding, it would be significantly better to build the coal generators near water

[primal flicker]

They should. And I've used one before on early aluminum so that the buffer level acted like a PIV

[deft lichen]

dismantling refunds everything