math-and-meta

[chrome walrus]

i like doing it with multiple floors like raw mats and simple stuff below more complex stuff above. but i m not a great builder myslef so idk

[ebon crater]

lets say I want to use trucks in my world, but I dont know exactly how many. what fuel type should I produce and how many per min? I know this is a really broad question but I am building a new fuel plant so I figure getting a lil packaged fuel(or turbo fuel) in there isnt too hard

[oblique hollow]

any fuel works

for around 600 m roundtrip i need just 27/min coal

or was it 11?

either way, 750 m takes like 3/min packaged fuel

[ebon crater]

is turbo fuel a valid option too? im already producing it at this factory and have some to spare

[oblique hollow]

take whatever value you had for fuel and divide it by 2.6666666

[ebon crater]

and like what is a reasonamble number. because I want to give myself some leeway later

[oblique hollow]

and then compare that to the extra effort to MAKE turbo

diluted fuel is good enough in most cases

[ebon crater]

turbo is more effort but im already making it so might as well. since i want some for jetpack too

i was thinking of making 45 packaged per min

it makes my entire factory run on round numbers

Well, most of it

[lethal ice]

so I have 2 cons making 30 iron rods per min.

I wanted to have 1 con pull 10 rods per min to make screws,

Would I split the 30 three ways, and have 1 feed back into the loop?

oh wait no duh now that I'm looking at it differently I would just merge the 3rd back into storage

[oblique hollow]

this would in fact output 15/min on each output

since its a recursive loop

you start with 30/min input, but then you get 30 + (30/3) as input

[lethal ice]

so I made a harder(dumber) splitter lol

[oblique hollow]

and then you get 30 + (30/3 + 30)/3

following this you get 45/min input divided by 3, of which only 2 outputs are used

soooo thats 15/min usable per output

(this btw is how you make odd number splits, like 1/5 or 1/7)

[lethal ice]

oh ok i see

[oblique hollow]

if you want just 10, you could also split in 2 and wait for the machine input to overflow with items

ooor like you said, split in 3 and use one of the outputs elsewhere

[lethal ice]

Yeah I just wanted to try not going with overflow

i know it's easier

my goal was to try and make something with a smaller footprint,

Rods,plates,screws,wire,cable

trying to compact is annoying

[ebon crater]

i dont bother with compacting. the world is huge

but if thats your goal, i think you did good

[lethal ice]

Thank you, I should of probably planned the constructors first instead of the smelters

[oblique hollow]

for future projects, give yourself a ton of room. Once you got the gist of those production lines, then you can compact them

else logistics becomes a real problem later on

[lethal ice]

yeah but it's only basic t1 stuff, figured might as well pratice here

[fierce ruin]

this is from 8 coal generators with 3 water pumps, shouldnt it provide 75x8 = 600 MW of max capacity?

also even though i have 120 coal splitted over 8 generators, my last pair is already not receiving enough coal, this confuses me lol

[oblique hollow]

75 x 8 is indeed 600, are you missing like half the cables?

[fierce ruin]

nvm im dumb like always

i forgot to attach the left row of 4 gens to the main grid

[tall wren]

This is the problem in my factory too, 100% of the time.

[fierce ruin]

HAHA

[oblique hollow]

yeah that xd

[fierce ruin]

also do you guys have that too were the last 2 generators are not getting enough, while the one before that is slooooowly reaching 100 input? (only after i put mk2 belts everywhere for some reason)

the weird thing is, i let all of them fill up with a 100 coal

[ebon crater]

Did you use splitters or smart splitters for the manifold

[fierce ruin]

there is a smart splitter in this game?

[ebon crater]

Look at caterium research in the mam

[fierce ruin]

woaaaat

will check, i reached tier 3 and 4 just a bit ago

[ebon crater]

My theory is you are using splitters so by the time it reaches the 4th coal gen it gets like 1/16th of the coal

[fierce ruin]

true! but then wouldnt that issue have been solved the moment i filled them all up with 100 coal each, before i put on the power?

[ebon crater]

I dont think so

I mean maybe? but obviously it didnt work in this case. idk why

[fierce ruin]

remains a mystery 🙂

[lethal ice]

So I have 2 limestone inputs,

One of 60 one of 30 for a total of 90, I only have access to mk1 belts.

How can I balance the inputs so each con get's 45, I found a solution but I feel like there was an easier way

[oblique hollow]

split 60/min into 4 belts, merge 3

would need 3 mk 1 belts to get 4 x 45/min

[median heath]

Isn't it simpler to just split both in 2 and then merge?

30+15 and 30+15

[lethal ice]

yeah I guess, that works too

[oblique hollow]

same number of splitters and mergers

60 / 2
30 / 2
30 + 15
2 splitters, one merger

[median heath]

Configuration sounds simpler in my version, but I could be wrong.

[summer flare]

The other methods suggested, splitting the 60 to 4 x 15 requires an additional splitter, the other of splitting the 60 and 30 requires one of the lines to be crossed over to be merged,

[median heath]

Oh look, a perfectly save downloadable file.

[deft lichen]

ironically #rules prohibit sharing save files but not other files

wannacry coming right up

[median heath]

Irony or coincidence?

[rancid topaz]

yeah thought this might come in useful for this chat, however i forgot the implications of that people may have already knew about this

[median heath]

You thought a file many people will never click on might come in useful?

[rancid topaz]

sorry bout that😅

[rancid topaz]

yeah maybe

[deft lichen]

what is the document about?

[rancid topaz]

Oh, it just shows the max amount of ore per min you get with a set miner

Either mk1, 2 or 3

Take a look if you want

Even have it working for oil

[median heath]

mk1 on pure maxes at 300
mk2 at 600
mk3 at 780

mk1 on normal maxes at 150
mk2 at 300
mk3 at 600

mk1 on impure maxes at 75
mk2 at 150
mk3 at 300

We need a file for that?

[rancid topaz]

No no, not like that

It shows how much all together of all the ore across the map

[deft lichen]

https://satisfactory.wiki.gg/wiki/Resource_Node#Types ?

[rancid topaz]

Running off 100% efficency

[median heath]

This?

[deft lichen]

those numbers are wrong lul

already reached out to greeny about it

[median heath]

@wind spade fix it 😭

[deft lichen]

well, assuming SCIM is right, that is

there used to be a duplicate coal node in DD, SCIM would also show it as duplicate, everyone just took the wrong number; fixed in U8 for both game and SCIM

and the limestone number also changed

[rancid topaz]

😅

Well the document I put out was similar to that but with the correct numbers

[deft lichen]

does it match the wiki? just to double-check

[rancid topaz]

I believe so as I did even use the satisfactory map editor to find them all

[sacred orbit]

how much coal can four coal power plants consume?

[worn cove]

15*4 -> 60/min (Without overclocking)

[sacred orbit]

i know the three/eight requires 120...

[median heath]

15 * 4 * 1.0 = 60, technically.

[sacred orbit]

it's an even 60 no matter what?

[median heath]

Provided 100% clock speed, yes. (Hence the 1.0 variable)

[worn cove]

If you don't under/overclock and supply enough water, yes :D

[sacred orbit]

would you guys recommend i merge these to move copper wire and sheet production elsewhere?

i plan on having half go to sheets and half go to wire/cable.

[median heath]

https://tenor.com/view/obi-wan-kenobi-of-course-gif-22884278

[sacred orbit]

i feel like this space is cramped, but i don't know how i should move them.

[deft lichen]

you're looking at it wrong

it's not cramped but space-efficient

you can move the smelters closer to the splitters to save space, too

[rancid topaz]

you man, want me to hop on your world and help you out with that

[sacred orbit]

i'm on Satellite internet with a wireless connection to the router.

[median heath]

Wireless connection to a wireless internet?
Wireleception.

[rancid topaz]

smoke screen internet is what it is

[sacred orbit]

what it is is living in the woods on a mountain

[median heath]

That sounds amazing.

[sacred orbit]

no cable company wants to run cable internet up here.

[rancid topaz]

you should get some then

[sacred orbit]

...

[rancid topaz]

awesome stuff

[sacred orbit]

i know

[median heath]

Win lottery.
Buy cable company.
Get private fiber line run to your home.

[sacred orbit]

wouldn't help the router not being in my room, and my dad not wanting to run a cable through the walls.

[viral ravine]

you can get a thing that uses the wiring thats already in the walls to run an ethernet cable from

[median heath]

In this context you have won the lottery, your house can be remade to whatever layout you wish.

[viral ravine]

I forgor the name of that

i just know thats a thing

[sacred orbit]

i wish.

materials are expensive

[rancid topaz]

yep

[wind spade]

Do research on proper number then plz xD

[mystic moon]

Powerline adapter

[rancid topaz]

fixed numbers

can we pin this document so I don't gotta keep posting it

[viral ravine]

THANK you

[deft lichen]

why not just use the wiki? 😭

I'll be happy to include suggestions or improvements there

[rancid topaz]

go ahead

how wide is the map in meters?

[median heath]

Thicc

[mystic moon]

12km iirc?

[median heath]

7.4 x 8ish iirc

[deft lichen]

it's an irregular hexagon, but on its parallel sides, it's 6800x7972 m

[lethal ice]

what did you use to plan this

[summer flare]

To draw the diagram? I use draw.io

[sacred orbit]

i remembered why i put them that far out. if they were closer, they wouldn't completely fit.

[deft lichen]

ah, fair, then I would have moved the splitters for a cleaner look, but that's details

[sacred orbit]

the foundation that wouldve made this work is clipping the ground a little bit.

[median heath]

Delete everything. Raise entire factory by 1m.

[sacred orbit]

nope.

too much work

[median heath]

2m?

[sacred orbit]

i already went through the hell of rebuilding a whole factory for one tiny little thing.

never again.

[median heath]

Well for next time, now you know about land prospecting for picking your starting height 😄

[sacred orbit]

it wasn't for height reasons last time. last time it was because i didn't notice the rotations of the basic foundations

my OCD went MAD

[prisma kraken]

this is always nice to see before you finish phase 1:

[sacred orbit]

how many hard drives are needed to get to there at that point?

[prisma kraken]

i think it is 9 will force it up

you can technically do it earlier

the initial recipe pool is 6 recipes, part assembly adds 3 more recipes so i think its either 7 or 8 drives forces it out

i grabbed the 3 easy drives in dune desert very early, right now i'm on the expedition trip that loops through north forest & rocky desert getting the drives there

about time for the inventory one too, i'm out of space with sinkable goodies!

[median heath]

@final jolt

Power up on the cliff, drag powerline back.
Steel up at the inlet.
Set up Tractor delivery through the multiple route options.
(There is iron there too, so literally make your Steel Beams and Pipes at yellow and truck those finished products back)

[final jolt]

Huh. That is completely different from my original plan. Good to know and thanks for the tips

[median heath]

Like I said, my favorite biome.
I have run through it at least 9 times at this point.

@final jolt when planning the route you're going to drive, you can use Power Poles as "checkpoints" like a rally race to remind you of the route when you're actually recording, and then you just go delete them later (or use them to take power from main area over to that outpost, until you unlock Power Towers)

[final jolt]

Haha that's smart

[celest quarry]

That's how I did my last base exactly

I even started with trucks, ended up doing trains later after my trucks kept falling off that broke that goes up to the coal nodes

[median heath]

U8 redid both trucking physics and Hannah redid the pathing in the biome, so trucking is a LOT better in the RD now.

[final jolt]

I'm just looking at this a bit more, and I'm just slightly confused on why I should put the steel production up there with the normal* coal?

[median heath]

It isn't impure?

[final jolt]

I'm using the interactive map, and I can see theres that pure iron node there, but that's the only thing.

[median heath]

It's normal.

[final jolt]

Forgot impure even exists my bad

[median heath]

And because driving it back from there is a metric fuckton easier than dealing with the cliff.

[final jolt]

Ahh ok.

[median heath]

Also that place is a PRIME example of where Iron Alloy shines.
Because you do Iron Alloy + Solid Steel and make absolute bank amounts of product from that location.

[final jolt]

Huh. alright thanks

[median heath]

It's so good to the point I made dedicated BPs for it.

[lethal ice]

Wasn't there a website or resource that showed the best alternate recipes

[median heath]

Not possible because there is no objective best.

[lethal ice]

there most likely is an objective best depening on your situation

[median heath]

Read that sentence again.
Because it literally says "there most likely is an objective best if you make it subjective"

[lethal ice]

look I'm asking if anyone remembers the site, so you don't need to talk to me

[median heath]

Yes, there are situationally best recipes.

But it's automatically subjective given it's specific to the situation.

[lethal ice]

https://satisfactory.fandom.com/wiki/Hard_Drive/Alternate_recipe_analysis

The wiki has basically all the information I was looking for

[median heath]

The outdated wiki that is no longer supported?

[prisma kraken]

i've never understood why you'd with a rocky desert start, build steel farther away than you'd build a coal plant... the four coal nodes on the bay are perfect for power, the crater lakes pure coal is perfect for the 3 pure iron nodes at the base of the ramp

[celest quarry]

Cool, I'll try them out

[median heath]

Any issues, feel free to send me a message.

[prisma kraken]

i guess you need to get closer to the less diverse resources in northern forest 😄

[lethal ice]

https://satisfactory.wiki.gg/wiki/Hard_Drive/Alternate_recipe_analysis
You could actually try being helpful instead of being an ass out the gate here's the updated wiki

[median heath]

[celest quarry]

The alloy and solid steel recipes are so good because they are really efficient and if you wire up your stuff right it all kind of auto balances he ingot production

[prisma kraken]

yeah, copper alloy, solid steel and hor are the trinity 🙂

[median heath]

Asked question.
-Given answer to question.
Made false statement.
-Explained how statement was false.
-Elaborated on truth.
Linked bad site.
-Stated link was to bad site.

All of those things are helpful, so yeah, I'm fine 🤷‍♂️

[median heath]

Iron Alloy, Solid Steel, put them together.

BPs are fun.

Perfect matching does take shards though @celest quarry, upclocking the Solid Steel to 125%.

[celest quarry]

I like stacking them vertically and making a giant cube of belts and foundry's

But the same connections

[median heath]

Lasts until I unlock Coke Steel.

[sacred orbit]

your design for rotor production. does it use anything higher than tier 2 belts?

[median heath]

No. All of my BPs are designed to use the lowest belt mk possible.

[sacred orbit]

and the highest used in that design?

[median heath]

The only belt in that image that is a mk2 is the Screws output.
Everything else is mk1.

[sacred orbit]

gotcha

[median heath]

That being said, making it all out of higher belts will not hurt anything.

[median heath]

@final jolt start here 😄

[final jolt]

Thanks

[median heath]

I have those BPs if you want them btw.

[final jolt]

Don't quite have BP's unlocked yet, but I'll keep it in mind

[median heath]

👍

[sacred orbit]

do you have a design for rotors that uses cast screws?

[median heath]

I do not. The very basic BPs I made are designed for defaults-only so as not to force that constraint. Sorry.
But Cast has a higher output than Base, so it would just be the 2 Constructors and 1 Assembler.

[sacred orbit]

oh my god i felt my brain just explode.

cast screws at 200% uses 25 ingots

standard rod input is 15 ingots

that's 40

[median heath]

Yes.

[sacred orbit]

three units uses 120 ingots

[median heath]

Also yes.

[sacred orbit]

HECK

[median heath]

Standard Rotor needs 45 Iron though.
So if you're getting 40 per, you missed something.

[sacred orbit]

standard rotors needs 20 rods...

[median heath]

There it is.

25 to Screw, 20 to Rod.
That's your 45.

[sacred orbit]

there's no emoji for screaming to the heavens

[median heath]

Positive scream or negative?

I think this is the other reason I didn't use Cast.
Because all Base recipes has good %'s.

[sacred orbit]

again, i'm trying to work forwards, so using 45 doesn't fit that

[median heath]

😭

Fine, be that way 😭

melodramatic crying intensifies

@sacred orbit you also do have to realize just how rare it is that recipes actually go into 60.

[sacred orbit]

yeah. that's why i'm using your blueprint at the moment

[median heath]

That's the puzzle of the game.
Miners work in 60s
Most items work in some form of 45s
Belts again work in 60s

So if you really want everything to line up, you have to do everything in terms of 180.

[prisma kraken]

for base rotor, if you're supplying 2 assemblers from 3 smelters (90 ingots), it isn't hard to split one of those 3 ways and turn the 90 ingots into 40 + 50

[median heath]

If everything was in 60's that would be boring 😄

[sacred orbit]

FUCK.

i just built everything up but forgot i had to smelt the ore

[median heath]

oof

[sacred orbit]

NERD RAGE

[median heath]

[sacred orbit]

i don't have the patience to deal with this atm. it's past midnight.

[median heath]

Sleep on it.

You may have an epiphany while you slumber.

[sacred orbit]

i don't need one.

[median heath]

(that's me praying you embrace solving backwards)

[true junco]

Solve from the middle out

[prisma kraken]

something you might consider is that 45+75 = 120, that's 3 rod constructors and 6 cast screw constructors, or 45 rods & 300 screws, and if you add 120 iron to it, you squeeze out of 240 iron some rotors, plates and mf's

that's a tricky thing to build on mk2 belts though

[true junco]

To be fair. Everything is "tricky" with mk2 belts... and by tricky i mean "pain in the ass"

[prisma kraken]

well, not everything, but yeah i know what you mean

rotors really cry for that 270 belt speed 🙂

[sacred orbit]

45 rods doesn't exactly work for rotors.

not without a bit of work

[true junco]

Its just a rough spot when you get to mk2 belts. When we first get RIPS they are pain to produce, we really want to get past mk1 belts and we dont have coal power yet i think. (Been years since i did a fresh start so its all fuzzy repressed memories. Lol)

[prisma kraken]

no, but 20 for rotors and 12 for mf's and 13 for storage does

[true junco]

Thats the whole game tho. Making things work. Lots of weird ratios and sneaky ratios.

[prisma kraken]

i'm just tossing an idea out there... i sometimes use it in an iron-only build yard factory

[median heath]

Ratios are only weird if you solve forwards 😉

[true junco]

Solve the entire thing simultaneously.

[median heath]

That's what Tools does 😄

[true junco]

Bingo

[prisma kraken]

i wish there was some type of nob on tools for 'show me the least pain-in-the-butt way of building this'

[true junco]

99% of my calcs these days are about "what can i fit in a single BP. Then figuring out how to BP various supporting BPs for it. Then i can just repeat that set up to the scale i want as needed.

[prisma kraken]

i went through that phase & wasted quite a bit of time on fitting stuff into the 4x4x4

i just really got sick of the problem and broke down to start using oversized bp's

[true junco]

So really a lot of scaling and swapping recipies until i get "round" machine numbers where I usually have one machine at 250% and whatever tagging along that supports it.

100% agree that "overstuffing" BPs is a rabbit hole to wasted time tho

[prisma kraken]

its kind of a fun problem as a sort of standalone challenge

[true junco]

Ultimately. Im glad i went the BP module route because ive managed to suss out a few good sized BP modules.

[prisma kraken]

but i think when it starts dictating your factory designs....

[sacred orbit]

i kinda wish Smelters could auto-configure.

[median heath]

But if you do it for them, people want it for everything.

[prisma kraken]

i've always thought that, its not like there isn't a 1:1 with their recipes and inputs

[sacred orbit]

my point exactly

[prisma kraken]

yeah, next thing people would want is generators to auto-sense fuel without having to be configured 🙂

[sacred orbit]

most everything else has more than one recipe

[median heath]

I'm not saying I wouldn't use the shit out of the feature if they added it.
Just saying "slope" is a consideration when advocating for it.

[prisma kraken]

it may also be that there's something more that will be added that makes having the config for the smelters a choice (SAM ore?)

[sacred orbit]

oh yeah. like, SAM ore could be smelted into multiple things?

[prisma kraken]

we don't know

but its a possibility that would make a little bit of sense for its possible use

[sacred orbit]

but if it could, that would mean, like you said, that configuring smelters would have a purpose.

[prisma kraken]

i'd rather see it be used to make some exotic material that gives us mk6 belts, but just being a wildcard for smelters to make whatever you're in need of wouldn't be a horrible function for it

[median heath]

Purpose is teaching you that you have to configure builds, as it is the first building you acquire.

[prisma kraken]

(those are the two possibilities i see for what its function could be in the game, it would be really lame if the purpose is just to mine it and send it to the space elevator

[sacred orbit]

i suggested that or the AWESOME sink as temporary uses until they decide what they want to do with it. sort of a "send us this new stuff so we can research it and you'll be rewarded with coupons" kind of deal.

wildcard for smelters to make ANY raw material would be neat

[prisma kraken]

meh, i'm ok with it sort of being WIP unused right now, but i would like to be able to sink the stuff

[sacred orbit]

agree

[prisma kraken]

on a longer playthrough if you do any doggo ranching, you do end up with a fair bit of it

plus there's always just the deposits you need to crack to build a foundation somewhere

[sacred orbit]

yea

[prisma kraken]

in my first couple of playthroughs before i thought about it, i'd end up with containers of it, lol

at that point i wasn't really tuned into how the dev cycle for the game worked and that it would be EA for a while still

[true junco]

just thought about "super alloy" from planet crafter. it has a similar rainbow oilslick irredescent appearance to SAM ore. lol

[prisma kraken]

haven't plaayed it

[true junco]

Its neat. Not nearly as polished as SF. Totally different mechanisms so I wouldnt consider them comparable.

[rancid topaz]

wish they would give sam ore a use again

it used to and it was really awesome

[median heath]

It never had a use.

[rancid topaz]

it did

[median heath]

It is story content.
To be implemented with story.

[rancid topaz]

check the wiki

https://satisfactory.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Ingots

[median heath]

Reading.
Where does it say "use" other than "not used"

[median heath]

Wrong wiki.

[rancid topaz]

yeah im saying it used to

[median heath]

I'm saying it never did. Been playing since day 1.

And what you linked it literaly a) wrong wiki, and b) labeled as "unreleased content" meaning it never made it into the game.

[rancid topaz]

not all of it atleast

some content did but got pulled out of the next patch

[median heath]

In the playable game, SAM has never been more than an ore that did nothing.

[rancid topaz]

that's what i had thought aswell, however i didn't exactly know that as i had been playing from update 5 and onwards

[median heath]

When SAM ore gets its use at 1.0, that will be the only use it ever had.

[rancid topaz]

finally

[median heath]

Same with Mercers and Somers.

[rancid topaz]

would also make sense, with that weird mushroom in the swam and forest also probably getting a function

[median heath]

?

[rancid topaz]

you donn't know about those, do you?

[median heath]

I can think of like 4 different kinds of mushroom, you need to specify.

[rancid topaz]

one sec

[rancid topaz]

weirdly enough their used to be a pink mushroom here

people speculated it to be for lore

[median heath]

Well, they did just redo the entire biome.

[rancid topaz]

true

[ivory wedge]

do any of you guys have advice for oil stuff? like the math on it and stuff. Because I am like fully unaware of wtf to do with it. I''ve youtubed some guides but idk im still iffy on it
like dope builds or stuff yall learned

[frosty owl]

If you're doing oil for the first time, "dope builds" and tutorials are unlikely to be useful
This game is about learning; it's hard to simply "copy" something you see online if you don't know why things are done one way rather than another

[oblique hollow]

Simplest thing you can do right now: make plastic and rubber (NOT Residual Rubber or Residual Plastic. Theres 2 recipes for each in the refinery. Pick the recipe that turns crude oil into plastic or rubber)

Then you just use the purple oil byproduct into coke and either burn that in coal generators or you discard it otherwise

the numbers are pretty freeform for you to choose

[lethal ice]

When a con says it prodcues 2 iron plates at 20 per minute.

Does that means it makes 20 total per min or 40

[soft trail]

2 iron plates each cycle of the machine. 20 total per minute.

[lethal ice]

that's what I thought, and I think I Just found the issue, I was confused how my 3x cons making plates were getting backed up on my belt

[true junco]

Yeah. Its come up enough, lots of folks get confused with how the recipies are described, it would be fixed if they consistently put the units on all numbers.

Like,

X [item] per cycle
Cycle = T seconds
Y [item] per minute

[abstract silo]

the middle belt needs 40 per min and the right need 60, I have the 60, I am using mk.2 belts (120 per min), have an extra 60 from the right belt and more iron but is there an easy way to do this?

[lethal ice]

Early game (just finished phase 1)

How good is the iron wire if I already have stiched plates

Or maybe I should take caterium wire instead

From what I understand caterium wire can be more overall useful

[uneven rune]

caterium poles you mean?

[lethal ice]

no?

[wind spade]

as good as you think it is

recipe's usefulness is determined by your preferences 🙂

[lethal ice]

Don't really have the experience to have a preference yet

[wind spade]

I mean use whatever you feel is good then 🤷‍♂️ or whatever you want

[lethal ice]

....ok..

[wind spade]

Pretty much all recipes are a tradeoff of some sort, e.g. you trade resource efficiency for less power needed, or you replace an ingredient with another, or you simplify your production line at the cost of more raw resources required, etc. Whether you like those values or not depends purely on you and your preferences.

[glacial saffron]

I caterium because yes, you reduce dependency for wiring (iron wire too)
and without much energy you can produce a shit ton of wires early

[lethal ice]

I think that's where I was learning, I was unsure of the whole iron wire + stitched plates I've seen people talk about before.

But yeah I think I might do the caterium wire thank you

[true junco]

Understandable. It takes time. And after over 1300 hours in this game i find my preferences for alt recipies is very circumstantial. Especially considering combinations of alt recipies.

So for me the "value" of a recipe is dependent on:

1. My immediate goal
2. The immediately available materials
3. do i find it interesting to do

[daring locust]

grrr

[prisma kraken]

iron wire+stitched plate is a great combo if you're looking to make rips with iron only, but the thing unappealing about it at times for me is that the numbers just never work out particularly well to fully utilize an iron node. In places, particularly default oscillator, that makes a lot of sense

[frank relic]

is iron wire + stiched iron plate more efficient than the default?

[median heath]

Define efficient.

[frank relic]

my bad, does it use less iron per plate than the default recipe?

[median heath]

Yes.

[prisma kraken]

it uses less iron

most of that savings comes from the reduced number of iron plates needed

[frank relic]

and its simpler, wish I knew that earlier

[prisma kraken]

well, i mean, you can't get much simpler than cast screw+iron plate as ingredients

[frank relic]

does it need less constructors i wonder

[prisma kraken]

well, wire and screws both are constructor recipes

[lethal ice]

That's what it seemed like, didn't really seem that great early on, that's why I wanted some advice.

[prisma kraken]

where stitched plate i think really shines is in phase 2 and 3 before you're using a lot of copper and don't yet have oil, and you can use some of the wire your making (possibly with copper alloy and fused wire) for making a lot of rips

[lethal ice]

plus I had a lot of copper near me

[prisma kraken]

post oil, i prefer using steel coated plate+adhered plate for rips

at that point as well, bolted plate and bolted frame become a thing as well

you can make tons of screws with the steel screw alt, and the increased production density of those recipes is nice

[frank relic]

at some point, would you be worried about the plastic consumption being too great?

[median heath]

Plastic is not a limited resource.

[prisma kraken]

you can get 900 plastic or rubber from 300 oil, and oil is pretty ubiquitous

at any given oil rich spot on the map, there's at least 1800 oil available in it

by the time you get to the point where you have the power for such volumes, you have a rail network and pushing rail spurs out to grab 900 plastic or rubber from a new oil node isn't a huge task to do, so no

part of that is a skill/experience thing and understanding that you can sprawl across the map and build all over the place, you just need to develop the skills to be able to get building materials to where you are building and find ways of traveling quickly

[rancid topaz]

im afraid to do the rest of the math for this

[lethal ice]

so I have 120 input into 4 cons, 1 for quartz crystal and 3 for silica.

I guess the easiest way would be to use load balancing it, but could you build a manifold?

I would need to load balance it anyway though at that point I guess

[median heath]

Manifolding is easier.

Single belt. One splitter behind each machine.

[wind spade]

manifold is always simpler than balancing (well, with a few exceptions, but still)

[lethal ice]

I get what you're saying, I just got my names mixed up.

Manifold = letting resources pile out and eventually that factory will operate at 100%

loadbalance is trying to balance the load..

[wind spade]

yeah

always easier to build one belt with a few splitters and let it fill while you're building next part than to calculate how to split 4 belts with different amounts of resources into 125 machines

[median heath]

Always easier ||to sushi||

[sacred orbit]

i never understood this idea with manifolding. wouldn't doing it create a backlog at the miner or other output point? with either idea it seems like you'd need to do a minimal amount of balancing, whether that's determining how many machines can run on one manifold that's supplying X items in or figuring out how to divide up one input however you need to multiple machines.

[lethal ice]

no it wouldn't if you need 120 resource and you're input is 120, shouldn't back up the miner at all

[viral ravine]

^

[sacred orbit]

first question. Sev, this set up should work to divide this iron ingot output into two belts of 45, right?

[sacred orbit]

IF you need 120 resources. if you only need 90 and youre manifolding 120, you will.

[viral ravine]

You shouldnt be doing that

[wind spade]

well that would happen with balancer as well

[noble timber]

Why would you manifold 120 if you need 90?

[wind spade]

so there's no difference regarding that

[viral ravine]

If you really want to produce more than you consume for some reason its actually easier on manifold too since you can just slap a sink at the end and never worry

[noble timber]

There’s pretty much no reason not to manifold everything. Load balancing in nuclear setups is cool if you want to be able to walk around your plant, but otherwise there’s no benefit apart from giving yourself a headache

[sacred orbit]

that's what i was saying before though. the "puzzle" of manifolding is, say, "machine A needs 20 I/min. machine B needs 15 I/min. how many of each can i fit onto a manifold of X I/min?"

[wind spade]

you don't... you calculate from end product

[median heath]

Yes.

[sacred orbit]

it's not just a catch-all

[median heath]

Also you can dm me if you don't want cross-traffic @sacred orbit

[wind spade]

if you're calculating from nodes, you'll have issues and it makes no sense anyway - you want to make howevery many you need, not however many can a random set of nodes make

[sacred orbit]

it's calculating how much input each machine takes.

[noble timber]

The game tells you that

[wind spade]

well but you know that because you know how many machines you need

[viral ravine]

The calculation of input on manifold boils down to summing up the total input required for all machines and then producing that many. Solved

[sacred orbit]

EXACTLY

[noble timber]

What’s the problem with that though?

[sacred orbit]

no problem

[noble timber]

It’s a much easier “calculation” than the one you need for load balancing

[viral ravine]

Why would you ever bother with load balancing if manifold exists

[sacred orbit]

spaghetti

[wind spade]

you start from end product, e.g. you want to make 15 HMFs

you figure out how much you need of each ingredient. f.e. you need 40 MFs and 120 rods (can't be bothered to calculate actual recipe, sorry 🙂 )

you repeat this for every ingredient.

Then you start from raw ores and figure out what belts of ore you have, how many is on each, etc. and just make manifolds from those belts. If you have 120 ore on one belt, you make manifold that eats 120. Repeat for every step and you have your production line.

Spaghetti has nothing to do with it, both manifolds and balancers can be build spaghetti-like or spagheti-less

[sacred orbit]

manifolds are easier to not spaghetti.

[wind spade]

indeed they are

[wind spade]

why would I merge products onto production belt when I can bypass it and have more capacity?

[glacial saffron]

what more capacity ?

[wind spade]

on the per-item belts

[glacial saffron]

you still have capacity

[wind spade]

I don't if I merge unrelated products onto them

[glacial saffron]

the machine products will not get on the "item passing" belt

[wind spade]

these sections

[glacial saffron]

if you really want to avoid any bottleneck you can still group it directly on containers

[wind spade]

I'd also like a nicely tileable setup that has straight belts, not weird diagonal stuff

and your suggestion brings pretty much no advantage

[glacial saffron]

the diagonal stuff is an artefact of how you made it first

you can make it straight again

[wind spade]

why would I to try to do that if I have perfectly working setup, where pretty much the only thing yours does differently is "not use thing that I said I use (any undefined)"

like there's no advantage to your setup over mine

[glacial saffron]

if you really want no machine restriction then you can do it like this

[glacial saffron]

half less smart splitters

[wind spade]

not really relevant 🤷‍♂️ can be nice stackable design, I'm totally fine with paying the cost of extra splitter per item

[median heath]

Forget SCIM. I want to send you top-down screenshots and have you draw my factory diagram 😄

[glacial saffron]

is this irony ?

I mean I'm sorry for not straigt lines, overlapping lines, and inconsistent sizes

[median heath]

It is not meant to make fun.

I think it would be cool to see something extremely technical drawn in that manner.

[glacial saffron]

color on black ?

[median heath]

And not machine-level precision.

Like put a bunch of engineers in a room, take away AutoCAD, and make them use MS Paint.

[glacial saffron]

you mean focused on expressiveness instead of accurate locations ?

[median heath]

Exactly.

[glacial saffron]

if you go extreme you could make it color it depending on target machine type, and load behavior

like "sink" lines being detected because merging to sink machine
and being shown with "sink" shade

speed as type of lines and load as thickness of lines

would need a colored code for items
a symbol code for splitter types of outputs (any, any unspecified, overflow)
color code for machine types
code for belt directions
for kind of splitter and merger
and then with the lines code
you can fully write it with types of items etc

and you could hint items path with the item code colors with combined tiny lines

[shadow mist]

Hey guys, its been a while and google fu isnt working, there was this site that had a chart with alternate recipes but it had like numbers attached to weights of power vs resources and gave a heirarchy based on totals. I cant remember if it was something loaded here or a website or what (like a google doc spreadsheet or something)

[prisma kraken]

I've seen a few people keep posting from google docs, and the ones i've seen, i haven't been very impressed with the analysis

I think i may have found the ugliest number in the entire game.... 910 = 2x5x7x13

(hats off to the designers for making quartz as ugly as possible 😛

[glacial saffron]

you mean alt recipe picture chart ?

[shadow mist]

its been a good year, Im not entirely sure; Im like 80% sure it was webpage with a spreadsheet type layout.

with my luck it'll be a buried reddit post somewhere

[glacial saffron]

https://satisfactory.wiki.gg/wiki/File:Recipe_Quick_Reference.jpg#/media/File:Recipe_Quick_Reference.jpg

[shadow mist]

ok it was 100% this but someone typed it out haha; this works though thank you

[glacial saffron]

typed it out ?

[shadow mist]

wasnt really a "use this because its best" type of "analysis" thing, it was just "This recipe uses "x" power, requires "y" inputs"

yeah it was like a spreadsheet or something

[glacial saffron]

So what I linked is what you were searching for ?

[shadow mist]

no but it works; found one very similar but its pretty ugly lol

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1irMkgTMQl3gV5FfmVS5_AbRoRKfg7vspZgChQ7OamNI/edit#gid=1234485472

has the weights for procuction based on power and resource use

what you sent me works for what Im looking for; I just dont want to be 'guess and checking" all alternate recipes is all lol

[glacial saffron]

Update 4 is stale

what I linked to you seems up to date

[shadow mist]

I know, Im not using that one

the one you sent me is fine, ty. Just wasnt what I Was looking for is all

[glacial saffron]

that's not the data you wanted ?

[shadow mist]

what you sent me works fine ty

I just wanted a reference to see what goes into alternate recipes; otherwise gotta guess and check each one which I dont want to do

[rapid crystal]

can i get some help
did i do this math correctly?
i need a distance of 784 foundations and I divided by 4 since the blue print has 4 each, then the rest of the math is materials

(the material count is per blueprint)

[median heath]

Since when do Foundations cost Rods?

[rapid crystal]

its for the blueprints, i used fences

[median heath]

Even in BPs, Foundations don't cost Rods.

[rapid crystal]

lol

[median heath]

Edits are fun.

[rapid crystal]

ikr

this is what the rods are for

but uh did i do the math correctly?

[prisma kraken]

fertile uranium as s-tier recipe???

[ivory wedge]

20 per minute means :

1 minute = 20 plates

[prisma kraken]

the items per cycle is just that, every 6 seconds, it spits out 2 plates, which adds up to 2 items/cycle x10 cycles/min = 20/min

[carmine thicket]

which one is best for my first alt recipe? at tier 4 currently if that matters

[median heath]

3

[carmine thicket]

ok ty

[prisma kraken]

solid steel is one of the best recipes in the game, but I really look for cast screw very early on as it simplifies rips & rotors in phase 1

[delicate chasm]

[median heath]

?

Yes, there is no best.
However, given the context provided:

1 is past its time of usefulness
2 is not able to be used
3 is able to be used

Easy vote.

[delicate chasm]

Well yeah, man. We can identify the context most of the time and if not we can ask for it.
But you get the dad emote because you just skipped the discussion and straight up answered a 'what is best' question like Conan. I'm proud of you.

[median heath]

That's because they provided the context up-front and the decision was simple.

If 1 was almost any other recipe then the answer is more complicated.

[delicate chasm]

I'm not here to criticize your actions. Only praise them.

[median heath]

That's right, praise me paesants.

[delicate chasm]

I think they thought I was linking them to the channel to ask here, rather than linking to the post I was linking to. Oh well.

I'm not a petty person but I'm low-key bent about greeny's version right below mine which is like an alt that uses sulfur compared to mine which is pure iron, which has a bunch of reactions because more people have seen it. 💢

[ebon crater]

Idk I just got here

[brittle thunder]

@lucid stone

[lucid stone]

This makes sense. It's how I have it right now. But, what happens if I need iron rods? How do I set up storage within this to also have some iron rods going to storage/

[brittle thunder]

I have a basic setup (in my starting area) making rods, plates and screws, everything else has a dedicated modular factory from raw materials, moved back to a central storage

[median heath]

You set up a completely separate line of Iron Rods that just does Iron Rods.

Do not fuck with your Frames production for Rods.

[lucid stone]

From it's own ore? Or, should I split

[median heath]

Just like if you need RIPs, you make an RIP line that does just RIPs.

[median heath]

That's entirely up to you 🤷‍♂️

[lucid stone]

Do you mind if I ask what you did

[brittle thunder]

I tend to use a separate mini factory for every item, with its own supply

[median heath]

All ore gets smelted.
All Ingots go to where they are needed.
X amount goes to Plates line that does just Plates.
X amount goes to Rods line that does just Rods.
X amount goes to RIPs line that does just RIPs.
X amount goes to Frames line that does just Frames.

Smelting section is separate from production.

So there is just "all ingots coming from here" and then they get split as needed for actual items.

[lucid stone]

If you have more ingots coming in than conveyor can handle, do you have multiple conveyors?

[median heath]

I think you know the answer to that.

[lucid stone]

Started questioning everything I knew for a second.

Thanks for the help.

[wind spade]

please don't use tier lists for alt recipe choices

[wind spade]

#math-and-meta message

@shadow mist ^ as well

[shadow mist]

What are you talking about

[wind spade]

click this #math-and-meta message

and read the message 🙂

[shadow mist]

K what are you talking about

Lol i read it

[viral ravine]

Greeny you keep this link somewhere right, you dont scroll everytime right

[wind spade]

search from:greeny.dev this message

[shadow mist]

I wanted the reference that showed each recipe, i didnt mention nor ask for a "tier list"

[wind spade]

it's like 4th or 5th at this point

[viral ravine]

Fair

[wind spade]

wiki has a list of them

[shadow mist]

Wiki doesnt show constituent parts, which is why i asked for the specific breakdown sheet.

[wind spade]

wdym by constituent parts?

[shadow mist]

.... individual parts that make up the whole... i.e. the constituent parts required to make a recipe

[wind spade]

so you mean items that make the items that are used in the recipe?

[shadow mist]

see how this doesnt show the parts required?

[wind spade]

this is a wrong list

[shadow mist]

I agree mate

thats why I asked for the more comprehensive one.

[wind spade]

this is the list I'm talking about

[shadow mist]

great.

why are you messaging me 12 hours later about this

for something I didnt even talk about; mind you

[wind spade]

https://satisfactory.wiki.gg/wiki/Hard_Drive

because I've read your message now?

[shadow mist]

I appreciate you trying to keep things in order or whatever, but you're jumping the shark

I didnt ask for a tier list, nor did I even discuss that.

[wind spade]

I saw a link with tier list which is heavily subjective and I've recommended to not follow the tier list (regarding tiers). I didn't know your intent was to see a list of recipes (which you clarified, so I've sent you a wiki link which is much more reliable than random google docs because it's pretty much auto-updated from game data)

[shadow mist]

I clarified it 10 hours ago. With respect, please read more than one line or whatever before messaging people or ask for clarification.

That link I sent wasnt even a tier list at all either.

[wind spade]

discord would have to scroll to latest message and not be in the middle of nowhere for that 🤷‍♂️ for me I saw that as end of conversation

it's "alternate recipe analysis" which uses subjective properties to weight recipes, kinda a tier list

[shadow mist]

literally the next line lol

🤷‍♀️ Im kinda done here; gnight

[wind spade]

I guess you have a different definition of what is next line 🤷‍♂️

[shadow mist]

its ... literally... the ... next ... line. Like ... quite actually the literal next time

[wind spade]

"guess and checking alternate recipes" can mean anything, for example "checking if it's good or bad".

[deft lichen]

I have dreamed up an arbitrary answer and any other answer is incorrect

[median heath]

Sounds like half the people I have blocked and why I blocked them.

[knotty venture]

correct answer in this shot is that I'm 2.6m. I used the pioneer as reference for all the shots (and I think the pioneer is 1.8m) but in this one shot it looked weird if I was too small in the frame so I scaled myself up.

[median heath]

Holy crap, Snutt tall AF.

[near igloo]

He's inspiring

[small kayak]

Big Snutt, big smile 😁

[knotty venture]

Snutt standing next to the pioneer colorized

[delicate chasm]

How many dozens of eggs do you eat every morning?

[knotty venture]

4 cartons of eggs a day

[fallow vector]

8'6" for those who don't do metric people

[oblique hollow]

8'6" for the weaklings

[delicate chasm]

That privileged Chad feeling, when you got exposed early and intuitively understand both Imperial and Metric with no need for conversions. 💪

[median heath]

How's the weather up there? 👀

[fallow vector]

[insert gothenburg beach scene here]

[exotic relic]

This is snutt's shopping cart for breakfast

[shadow mist]

ah, so about my dogs height

😅

(hes a little bit taller than shaq lol)

not quite snutt height unfortunately

[lethal ice]

This has happened to me, and I've seen it happen in here at least 2 more times in the past two days when I'm actually paying attention.

When a new player comes in here asking for advice on alt recipes being told "just pick your favorite or just pick the best for you" can be considered rude, I know I did.

Yes it's true there is no BEST recipe and everyone probably knows that, but I saw that as just splitting hairs. We're new (returning in my case) players with little to no game experience, so we just don't know. We can't know what's best for our situation with little to no experience.

luckily I found the wiki that breaks down (most) of the alts and mentions some of their base case uses, which should probably always be the first response

[carmine thicket]

He likes his copy pasta. Your right though. It was my first recipe and I wanted to k kw what was the best at that time(almost tier 4). Telling me we eventually get them all doesn't really help. Either way someone else gave me an answer and I appreciate it

[lethal ice]

I know they're just trying to help us learn, but it kind of just misses the mark

[carmine thicket]

Probably get annoying answering the same question day after day but yea. It is what it is.

[lethal ice]

(also if you still need help the new wiki breaks down most of them on the item page, it's nice)

[carmine thicket]

I happened to get the solid steel recipe before I even set up steel so I lucked out and luckily someone told me to pick that one. Was perfect timing.

[viral ravine]

Yes you may not know what choice is the best, however 99% of the time it's just a screenshot of the hard drive scan results. We don't know what factory they have, what resoruces there are nearby, what are they trying to accomplish so we know even less than you do in that case

We can't guess whats in your game, thats the point of "pick any" response, if you pick a wrong option theres no consequences because all recepeis will be unlocked eventually

[lethal ice]

Since there's a good chance they're probably new, more information can be asked for, or even tell them about the breakdowns on the wiki will help them have a better understanding

[carmine thicket]

Sometimes people like to be reassured of their decisions though.

[lethal ice]

not just "pick what's fun for you"

[viral ravine]

You only get the recepies you can afford at the point you are in the game, you don't get recepies that are not available to you so theres no guessing for the future factories. And since the recepies involve only familiar products, you have the ability to decide on it

[lethal ice]

Maybe I don't understand the cost I'm actually paying for some of them, I'm building a whole factory using it, just to find out it's something that you really should use else where in about 2 hours of game time

We just don't know, that's why we ask for advice

[viral ravine]

Making mistakes is also an important step of learning what works and what does not.

[lethal ice]

Not everyone wants to play the game like that, but I'm done with this here for now.

[viral ravine]

Sorry i dont quite understand what you mean about a thing you should use in 2 hours? Geniuenly dont understand 🤷‍♀️

[oblique hollow]

Accurately expressing "this recipe is best" is hard because we really dont want to assume playstyles

Thats why i prefer asking people questions about their production lines and if an alt would help simplify it for them

When you start out, resource efficiency likely isnt your first concern but rather the good old "pain in the ass" factor is

But even thats just me assuming that based on how i felt back then. I though alts made entirely new items instead of just allowing me to make parts in different ways.

Though telling beginners "just go read the wiki" feels like a cheap non answer too

So really, it comes down to learning the uses cases

And we really can not teach that to new players. Other than slapping a written guide in their face

Which might spoil other parts of the game to them

[viral ravine]

☝️
Imo that knoweldge comes way faster from trying out different recepies on your own than having someone tell you how they used it in their build

[oblique hollow]

so @lethal ice please dont get this the wrong way but there really is no way to properly say any of this concisely without overwhelming beginners

so we just say "pick your fave" as a way to say "experiment with these early recipes so you get a feel for it"

Because every alt absolutely is situational

So "whatever is most likely to make stuff easier" is by far the best metric to start with

Another choice is to pick at random and see if it becomes useful

[lethal ice]

This all depends on the person, but if someone comes here asking for advice, they'll probably asking for more than that. Some people don't want to just experiment, that's why linking the wiki would have been the biggest help for me because it answers just about everyone question I have for most ALTs.

I have seen some newer players just become discouraged by that answer in the past couple days alone. It is being taken the wrong way more than once.

[oblique hollow]

Wiki analysis is lacking in many cases still. Do you have an example page?

We tried to simplify it for beginners by including the "Recipe Summaries" section

that one is specifically targeted at people who dont know what the alts are used for

[lethal ice]

and the wiki has done a great job, and has helped more than when I tried asking for advice here.

I have 20 tabs open right now of items to compare their alts.

A good example was the wiki helped me not pick iron alloy ingot when I came really close to picking it early on. Wiki summarized how valuable copper would be for me later on and although I'm sure iron alloy ingot has its uses, I felt it was more useful on another after reading it.

[ebon crater]

The wiki has some issues. What if an alternative uses less sulfur but more coal? If you only have one coal node, that recipe probably isn’t the best.

[lethal ice]

That's when I would probably come here to ask for more advice

[viral ravine]

Theres so much copper on the map that there is no need to be conservative when using it

[ebon crater]

Yeah but how are we supposed to know your current situation 💀 the point is that there are a few alts that are “better” but it honestly really doesn’t matter until you’re at steel and oil production, at which point you want to get most of the hard drives unlocked anyways

I used to be one of those guys that would post all my alt recipes. Looking back, it seriously didn’t matter since I never used 100% of recourse capacity and ended up tearing those factories down anyway

[lethal ice]

I'm not here to argue, I've already explained it would have been nice if someone asked more about my current situation or even told me about the breakdowns in the wiki. If people don't feel like asking newer players these question, you aren't forced to help them in the discord.

Fact of the matter is though, there have already been a handful of newer players who have taken these "just pick" answers harshly, instead of guiding them to the resources like the wiki

@ebon crater like i've said , new players don't know that lol

and you shouldn't push "your way" of playing a game on someone else

but I gotta go.

[ebon crater]

Well now you know

[viral ravine]

This is priciesly why we dont want to tell you what to pick

I wouldnt be able to word it better myself

[ebon crater]

Ironic. Considering you’re asking other people how to play 🤦

[oblique hollow]

Once again we arrive at the conclusion "we have no clue what to tell people when they ask about alts"

Its been a pain in the ass ever since and there just isnt a good general answer

[carmine thicket]

Hate to beat a dead horse but in my case someone suggested I picked solid steel and it worked perfectly since I had not setup steel yet.

I'm not even sure what makes it better though lol

[viral ravine]

exactly

Chances are, if you first learned steel, and played with different recepies you would have known

[carmine thicket]

That's true but that doesn't change the fact it would have been good at the time I got it

[rapid mist]

Fewer machines lower energy consumption and you get 60 steel for 40 coal and 40 iron instead of 45 steel for 45 coal and 45 iron. It’s also faster.

[carmine thicket]

Ty so much

[viral ravine]

thats looks like fandom wiki page, it is outdated and unmaintained 🙂

Wiki.gg is where the up to date wiki is

[rapid mist]

Cool I just started playing again. My last save is from u5

[viral ravine]

Just to let you know if you need the wiki in the future

[rapid mist]

Are those ratios wrong?

Just got that alt in my save and I remember using it a lot.

[true junco]

A big part of the problem is that people ask for the "best choice" and there is just very little agreement on what is best. So. Avoiding giving a subjective opinion off as if its objective fact helps to avoid arguements in here.

[snow dove]

they look right, but use the wiki.gg wiki to be sure

[viral ravine]

they might become obsolete if theres an update to them

if that happens fandom will still probably show the old ratio

[true junco]

The info in fandom may be right. But it isnt being supported so it will eventually be out of date. That and some folks are apparently trolling the fandom wiki with nonsense.

[viral ravine]

and also fandom just hating users apparently

[true junco]

We heard you liked ads, so we put ads in your ads so you can have ads while you have ads.

[snow dove]

fandom shoves ads down your throat, and tracks your ip

[viral ravine]

sure you might use ad-blockers like me but there other issues as well

[oblique hollow]

I really, really wanna write a "How to pick an alternative recipe" guide for beginners on the wiki now so we can just push everyone onto that and hope for the best

cause im tired of whatever nonsense we have on here

[snow dove]

we need a “![subject]” command for that

[oblique hollow]

an !alt command

[snow dove]

would be great

[oblique hollow]

no wait we DO have that

[snow dove]

we do?

[oblique hollow]

!wikisearch alternate recipe

[brisk shore]

https://satisfactory.wiki.gg/index.php?search=alternate

[viral ravine]

[oblique hollow]

i just gotta make the right page

and then you should be able to find it with this

[snow dove]

so much typing tho

!alt would be significantly better

[true junco]

There is always somebody popping in looking for an alt recipe "ranked list" and then every ranked list that we've found is "rank"💩

[viral ravine]

the issue of tier lists is the bias

[true junco]

One could probably write a small text book trying to get an accurate analysis of alt recipe "usefulness"

[ebon crater]

Exactly why the wiki shows downsides and pros of each recipe. But like at the same time each player has to look at that info and make a decision based off of their current recource availability

[deft lichen]

Just a page named "Alt" with #REDIRECT [[Hard Drive#List of alternate recipes]] or whatever the section is called

[oblique hollow]

nah im straight up making a guide page now

ive had enough

[deft lichen]

Excellent 😄

[viral ravine]

link when done? 👀

[oblique hollow]

i can save it already and edit later

[deft lichen]

The current system is a bit biased. We have plans for a new system without math, but it's not being worked on currently

[true junco]

Probably my biggest issue with the wiki pages for all items is the cost comparisons of them.

I think that on a given page when they calculate the input material costs of a recipe it should assume that the default recipies are used except for the final recipe being compared.

For example. Comparing the alts for Motors. Everything on the table should be default recipies from start to finish except for the actual recipe for the motors being compared.

In other words. Somebody's bias is already baked into a lot of the comparison charts because somebody assumes you will use "iron wire" or "steel rod + default screw" or whatever other choices the author made....

I would rather see the so called sub-optimal cost of an all default chain, and then think about how i can "improve" that chain for myself to my needs.

[ebon crater]

The math is biased?

[deft lichen]

Yes, how Canadian just put it

[true junco]

The recipe choices are biased

[ebon crater]

Yes I see what you mean

[deft lichen]

It's biased because it picks a "best" recipe and uses it everywhere moving forward

[ebon crater]

Good point

[true junco]

I understand why a lot of those choices are made. But i dont agree that they should be done for basic info pages.

[deft lichen]

And this can't be resolved. Technically, even preferring defaults is biased

Our idea is to ditch the math and go for natural language comparisons instead

[true junco]

True. But at least choosing "default" is well... default.

[plush marten]

better to use satisfactory tools for calculation

[true junco]

Well obviously.

But the format of the wiki should still be more straight forward and unbiased.

Also. My "tools calculator" page is a mess... and i have a different one on my phone from my laptop and yeah... 😆

[plush marten]

i now use only wiki when i have to know about a certain item

[median heath]

Tools is subjective as well.

[plush marten]

yeah i understand that fs

[true junco]

Right. Tools takes lowest WP path mostly kind of.

[deft lichen]

If you'd have any feedback about the wiki, such as if you'd like to see anything added, please let me know. I see stuff differently from the eyes of an editor

[oblique hollow]

quick question how do i left align an image

[deft lichen]

Uhhh

I think [[File:filename|size|left]]

[plush marten]

for sure mate

[oblique hollow]

nvm got it

i just switched to non-source edit

[rapid mist]

I think resource proximity is impossible to account for mathematically in judging alts. Unless you have an incredibly organized distributed material processing network the value of iron wire can’t be boiled down to ratios. If it’s going to take you hours to build the infrastructure to get copper to your wire constructors then iron wire becomes far more efficient than the default even though the numbers show that it is not.

[true junco]

That is the issue with alt analysis. Value is definitely a function of circumstances.

[oblique hollow]

i hate images, now i have to insert 50 line breaks to get the text below them

https://satisfactory.wiki.gg/wiki/Tutorial:Picking_an_alternate_recipe

[ebon crater]

That is my #1 issue with picking alts for other people

[true junco]

Tho I think ironwire has good value in general simple because iron is the most abundant resource after water, and that it seams like everything that can be made out of iron has many alt paths to use even less iron.

[oblique hollow]

FAR from done but at least theres a beginning now

Once i am done i want every single #screenshots ever asking for help with alt recipes to land on there

[celest quarry]

Picking which alt to take is definitely heuristic

[oblique hollow]

now you gotta teach heuristics to people

[celest quarry]

There is definitely some recipes that are super useful and some that are not

The more coat effective ways to make ingots and stuff are always a good grab because those will effect every thing else

[oblique hollow]

sure but you literally have to teach people how to compare and they then have to make that choice

[celest quarry]

I know right, something that you can only learn from making a couple factory's

Like you will learn that steel rods + screws is efficient but logistically annoying

[burnt musk]

so i have a question
what is the best ratio to stop resources from backing on the output side for liquids? i have 24 refineries in 4 sections of 6 all outputting to the same line to dump into a 8000m buffer, but only the first 6 are actually producing any resources. the rest are acting like they are clogged.
so my main question is should i rework the outputs to a load balance style or am i doing something wrong with the manifold style?

[oblique hollow]

context - what are you making?

[snow dove]

consume all outputs, mind headlift, loop manifolds if working near the upper limit of mk2 pipes, remove buffers (the general answer basically)

[oblique hollow]

there is a general answer but theres a very specific case where that general answer doesnt apply and you could having that case

[burnt musk]

im making oil plastic, and oil rubber

[oblique hollow]

right, and now you are buffering the heavy oil because you couldnt find a use for it?

[burnt musk]

the 8000 buffer goes to 6 refinereis to make fule for a 6:1 ratio of oil to fuel

[oblique hollow]

funneling it all to one buffer is a bit odd as you are bottlenecking yourself there

[snow dove]

and potentially causing headlift issues

[oblique hollow]

buffering it at all is also questionable because you shouldnt expect to have inconsistent output of heavy oil

you know how much you make per minute

and its all sort of stable. so the buffer wouldnt ever change level

[burnt musk]

fair

[oblique hollow]

check how much heavy oil you make per minute and then make sure you dont exceed the pipe capacity

because its easy to exceed that limit

[wind spade]

that depends on your definition of "useful"

[wind spade]

how so?

[carmine thicket]

There was no nonsense. This is a help discord and I got the help I needed (from a human and not some web page or bot). Not trying to sound any certain way. Just saying I appreciate someone took the time to help me rather than "just going to google". At some point might as well make this Google 2.0. Not arguing just telling my opinion. And sorry for the necro but I'm at work

[oblique hollow]

no its fair it is an active topic for me

but, historically speaking, this topic is just pure ass pain in this server

[carmine thicket]

I hear ya.

[burnt musk]

24 refineries each outputing 10 oil per minit = 240/min on a mk2 pipe

[wind spade]

#math-and-meta message 😛
(yes I know, it's probably gonna be in much more detail, but I think it's a decent base 🙂 )

[oblique hollow]

to me that means only plastic is being made

because rubber makes a different amount of heavy oil

sooooo please check your numbers again

[burnt musk]

copy

[celest quarry]

Because you have to make steel then rods then a ton of screws

[wind spade]

you have to make tons of screws no matter what tho?

if you need 2000 screws/min, you need to make that much, no matter what recipe you use

[viral ravine]

Quick question to be sure, making encased uranium cells and it needs 40 Sulfuric acid/min and produces 10/min.

If i supply it with 30/min from the start and recycle that byproduct 10/min it will be self sufficient since the first cycle, right?

[snow dove]

will take a bit to equalize, but should

[wind spade]

yes and no. Best is to make sure it never backs up with VIP junction or separating fresh and recycled acid

[carmine thicket]

That web page you linked....you sound like your gonna explain how to decide which one is best for you and then end it....you left me wanting more for sure. Good so far though 🙂

[viral ravine]

I want to recycle it with a VIP, and i want the fresh acid from the refinery to come at 30/min

[frosty owl]

I suggest adding one buffer to refill with Acid to kickstart the loop (also helps as easy flushing point in case of fullness)

[wind spade]

there's no best 🙂

[oblique hollow]

well, it is unfinished after all

[celest quarry]

And you won't need 2k screws/min with the right alternative recipes

[oblique hollow]

im writing more right now

[carmine thicket]

If I have not setup steel yet and I get the choice of solid steel. That might be the best at that particular time though.

[celest quarry]

Thank you stitched iron plates

[wind spade]

my point is "if you need 2k screws, you make 2k screws. The number is irrelevant, we're talking about recipe paths for screws"

[celest quarry]

No your points irrelevant

[wind spade]

may be best for you based on your preferences

[celest quarry]

I'm not talking about efficient I'm talking about whats more fun to build

[viral ravine]

so this can work, yes?

[snow dove]

assuming you build the VIP correctly, yeah it’ll work

[viral ravine]

I know to make a vip, thank

[snow dove]

so many people mess it up, so i had to mention it

[viral ravine]

i was taught by one and only Sevrahn

[carmine thicket]

Which is what I meant when I was talking about that web page. It's hard for people to know what's gonna be best unless they have lots of game knowledge. Although I'm not sure a web page could teach you these things. Which brings me back to sometimes getting a humans advice might be helpful in certain situations. But I get it everyone will be different except a few edge cases like what I explained

[wind spade]

I mean you're in #math-and-meta , we kinda are all about efficiency 🙂

[wind spade]

for a webpage to tell you "what is best for you based on your preferences" to work, you'd need to find a way to give all your preferences to the webpage

[snow dove]

brain scan?

[carmine thicket]

Yea I know. Need an encyclopedia lol

[wind spade]

every recipe has it's use and whether or not you like the drawbacks and advantages is purely on you

so instead of "what is the best recipe" guide, we should focus on "how to check what a recipe can do" guide, so that people can make their own informed decision

[celest quarry]

No, your joining the tail end of a conversation about how to explain recipes on the wiki and picking the most efficient one isn't always a good pick

[snow dove]

efficient based on what criteria

[celest quarry]

Exactly

[wind spade]

how do you define "efficient" tho?

[celest quarry]

Exactly

[carmine thicket]

A few helpful pointers like: -cast screws are good early game, -solid steel is good especially if you get it before you setup a huge setup of steel...might be good on that web page though

[wind spade]

wiki never said anything about picking most efficient one

[celest quarry]

It has a recipe highlighted in bold

[wind spade]

cast screws are "good" for like 2 minutes 😄

[carmine thicket]

Just an example

[celest quarry]

Oh I better pick pure iron ingots, what's a refinery anyways?

[wind spade]

which is just to show which one is used in the alt recipe analysis in further steps. And the analysis is old and bound to be removed

[snow dove]

a building, that you can find in your build menu

[celest quarry]

That was rhetorical 😆

[oblique hollow]

there, ive expanded the article

stiiiiiiillll not done yet tho

[wind spade]

if you're talking about current wiki recipe analysis, then sure, that's crap, but we have plans to remove/replace it for last year or so. Just nobody got to it yet

[carmine thicket]

Looking good 🙂

[main dirge]

Finally got around to checking this - you get less plastic than rubber from resin, which means less recycled rubber right?

[wind spade]

always residual rubber if aiming for most oil products

[main dirge]

Checking my maths is right before I screw up production ratios

[wind spade]

you're gonna put it into recycling loop anyway

(and you want both recycled plastic and recycled rubber)

[carmine thicket]

Least amount of work required to get max amount of outcome.

[wind spade]

define "work" tho 😛

[carmine thicket]

Hmm

[wind spade]

least amount of work is plopping down a blueprint

[carmine thicket]

Setting up an hour of steel production

That's work

[wind spade]

and by that point it doesn't matter what recipes are in the blueprint

well yeah but everyone builds at different speeds

some people decorate, some build floating skybases, some just put things on the ground, etc.

those are vastly different ways of playing

[carmine thicket]

I'm just trying to say acquiring something like solid steel before you setup steel is really good compared to much later in gameplay. Like I know you can get them all but some sites require later game items to open. So help in making a choice is sometimes good

[wind spade]

acquiring any alt recipe before building production is good (assuming you want to use that recipe)

basically you should always get all the recipes you want before attempting to build the item

[ebon crater]

agreed

plus the hunt for drives is kinda fun too

gives you a reason to explore the rest of the world

[carmine thicket]

Sounds like tonight might be exploration night

[main dirge]

Got it mathing, ty 💙

[carmine thicket]

Why are pure iron ingots listed in "not recommended" tier? I always thought that was one of the best alt recipes you could get. Because it uses so much more power?

[oblique hollow]

because we dont use tier lists

Ask the person who made that judgement

[carmine thicket]

Are pure iron ingots a good idea to use or are the standard ones better?

Assuming I have access to refineries

[oblique hollow]

that depends on if you really need them that bad

People see it as "free efficiency" since "its just water for more free iron"

[primal flicker]

It also depends on how big you want to build, and if you want to spend all the resources to build those refineries.

[carmine thicket]

Ok cool. Ty

[oblique hollow]

but the effort behind that is the true cost

[carmine thicket]

Yea

[wind spade]

what "tier" are you talking about? all tier lists are heavily subjective and rarely agree on anything

[primal flicker]

If you want to build small and dense, alloy ingots are the way to go.

[oblique hollow]

The only thing they show is how the person who made the tier list sees those recipes

they are definitely not community voted

[primal flicker]

If you want to stretch local resources for a factory, without bringing them in from further nodes, pure alts are great for that.

[wind spade]

(and community voted would be a horrible idea as well)

since people often don't know what a recipe offers and just "vote" for their favorite one

[oblique hollow]

Im of the opinion that compared to some other games, Satis doesnt benefit from Tier lists.

[primal flicker]

There are best use cases for every recipe. They are all worthwhile.

[oblique hollow]

Of course theres the whole "tier lists are not supposed to be used alone, they are supplemental and are usually meant for people who have no experience to make a judgement, based on the experience of a professional player"

[carmine thicket]

Commonsensegamer

Was the tierlist

[oblique hollow]

but honestly, that doesnt work here

[snow dove]

but then that can very easily misguide them into thinking there are objective comparisons

[oblique hollow]

it would maybe work if we had a meta where these choices are actually meaningful and impactful

but the meta is "every recipe is A rank"

[wind spade]

and F rank at the same time

[oblique hollow]

yeah, every recipe is in superposition tier

[wind spade]

schrödinger's recipes

[prisma kraken]

almost every recipe is situationally useful

the only one i think i'd never use is fine concrete

[wind spade]

which is once again your opinion 😄

[carmine thicket]

I remember when turbofuel was considered one of the best alt recipe...but now you aquire that through the mam(I think)

[prisma kraken]

i could name portable miner as a whipping boy, but that's more about the miner stack size

i mean, i can't even justify fine concrete as a sink for silica byproduct from aluminum, lol

[wind spade]

turbofuel was never considered that imo

[prisma kraken]

back in probably around the u4 timeframe, when it was hard to get through research, probably a lot less info was really known about building a TF plant and its pluses and minuses

when you hear '40 gw of TF power', at first you're like 'oh wow, that's great', but when you start comparing the recipes and realize that a comparable dilluted fuel build gives you 30 gw, it doesn't look as shiny

i'm not a TF hater, but really for effort vs yield if you don't need 40 gw of non-nuclear power, dilluted fuel is probably a better option

[ornate echo]

How should i set up the manufacturers if i have 8 melters and wanna make an rotor factory

[median heath]

There is no Rotor recipe that requires a Manufacturer.

[mystic moon]

Or melter

[oblique hollow]

8 smelters doesnt tell us anything

[shadow mist]

presume youre just starting; this is kind of too small to start nit picking designs and layouts. For me personally, at the beginning of a run I find it easiest to just slap stuff down and get baseline materials up and running until you finish your phases on your HUB. Getting aluminum and a starting grid of 10-15 gw usually lets you start "playing" for this kind of optimization. Otherwise youre kind of running around putting a lot of time and effort into whats ultimately a trivial start

[ornate echo]

oh im not that new i plan my stuff out im just not that much on the math, so i have 8 smelters and therefore 240 iron ingots an minute, i need to produce screws and bars, now how many dedicated bar manufactures and screw from bars should i make to use the 240 a minute to make the most efficient rotor factory, is that clear?

[median heath]

Again, there is no Rotor recipe that uses a Manufacturer.

[ornate echo]

well yeah i know, but the materials needed for it

[oblique hollow]

easy: see what just one Assembler making Rotors needs, then scale that up

[median heath]

!wikisearch Manufacturer

[brisk shore]

https://satisfactory.wiki.gg/index.php?search=Manufacturer

[oblique hollow]

so if 5/min rotors needs like... 30/min Iron ingots and 40/min copper, you just scale that up to use all your available iron

[median heath]

P.S. If you're using base recipes, Rotors require 45 iron ingots/min.

[ornate echo]

okay making the math backwards might have been easier

[oblique hollow]

it always is

[median heath]

Always solve backwards.

[oblique hollow]

forwards is hell

[median heath]

➡️ 🔥

[ornate echo]

so i can make 5 rotor machines from that, now how many screw thingies and bars and the bars seperately for the screws do i need

[median heath]

"Machines"??

[oblique hollow]

same thing

[ornate echo]

things that make rotors

[oblique hollow]

solve for the number of screws and rods needed for one assembler

[median heath]

Assemblers.

[oblique hollow]

and then see how much the machines making these parts need

just follow the entire chain backwards

[ornate echo]

but the screws itself need bars, and this is where it gets complicated

[oblique hollow]

so? its a constant value

[ornate echo]

oh my im so dumb

[median heath]

It really helps people help you if you know the actual names of things instead of substituting your own. Just FYI @ornate echo

[oblique hollow]

if rotors needs rods and screws needs rods, you just add the total cost together

[ornate echo]

okay okay, i think i know my question properly now, if i have 5 assemblers for rotors, how many manufacturers do i need to dedicate to the screws and bars only

my math isnt mathing

[oblique hollow]

no manufacturers at all.
constructors is what you mean, right?

the machines making screws and rods

[ornate echo]

yes

[oblique hollow]

you multiply the demand of one assembler by 5 and divide by the output of the constructor

if one constructor making screws makes 40/min and you need 120/min screws, you need [ ] Constructors

after that, you solve for rods

same spiel

[ornate echo]

i have 240 iron a minute and all of them will be used for rods, if i have 5 assemblers, how many of these rods do i dedicate to screws and how many to the asembler itself, aka how many constructors make only rods and how many constructurs rods o to screw production

[oblique hollow]

solve backwards.
Figure out how much the assemblers need.

[median heath]

How many Screws do you need?

[ornate echo]

enough for 5 assemblers

[median heath]

How many is that?

[ornate echo]

good question

[oblique hollow]

well? how many

[ornate echo]

500, now how many manufacturers do i need to make 500 screws a minute

[median heath]

0

[oblique hollow]

how many does one constructor make

[median heath]

Because you need 0 Manufacturers

[ornate echo]

120

[oblique hollow]

nah

[ornate echo]

no 40

[oblique hollow]

there we go

[ornate echo]

my brain

[median heath]

500 / 40

[oblique hollow]

whats 500 / 40

[ornate echo]

1,25

[oblique hollow]

decimal error

[ornate echo]

12,5

[oblique hollow]

yup

twelve and a half

[median heath]

Comma error 😉

[oblique hollow]

how many rods does one constructor need? (or ingots if you use the alternate recipe)

[ornate echo]

so i got 12 of them, that will need 6 smelters

[median heath]

You need 7.5 Smelters.

[oblique hollow]

which recipe for screws are you using

because you are skipping a step

[ornate echo]

well if i make 12 for the number it needs only 6, the other 2 smelters will make 120 bars, are 120 bars enough to feed 5 rotor assemblers a minute?

[median heath]

(Either way the total build needs 7.5 Smelters. I'm giving you that so you know if you fucked your math up.)

[oblique hollow]

why 12 and not 12.5

[ornate echo]

only bars

[oblique hollow]

half a machine is not impossible

[ornate echo]

round thingies

[ornate echo]

because that would mess up organization

[oblique hollow]

well 12 instead of 12.5 would not run at max efficiency

[ornate echo]

12 need 6 machines and i have 8, so the other 2 have to be used for rods

[median heath]

You're self-inflicting an issue here.

[frosty owl]

"This half machine is too much" can equal "I have some spare for Storage"

[oblique hollow]

"12 need 6 machines"
what. 6 constructors making rods?
because if so, no, you need 8 constructors making rods for just the screws

[ornate echo]

okay i have to rethink, how many bars does manufactur use for rods

[oblique hollow]

and the 5 manufacturers also need rods

[median heath]

0

[oblique hollow]

look at the recipe ingame

you have a codex

[ornate echo]

i aint ingame now

[median heath]

Because you're not using Manufacturers.

[oblique hollow]

then look at the wiki

[ornate echo]

im messing up words i know

[oblique hollow]

https://satisfactory.wiki.gg/wiki/Iron_Rod

here, dig through this

[median heath]

If you know, then it is easy to not do.

[ornate echo]

okay from the beginning, i am making 240 irons rods a minute

[oblique hollow]

fing discord

[median heath]

"From the beginning" should be followed by "I want to make 20 Rotors/min"

[ornate echo]

out of these 240 rods, how many need to go to the rotor production itself and how many to the screws to run at max efficiency

[median heath]

You're still solving forwards...

[oblique hollow]

here

[ornate echo]

wait i figoured it out i think

[oblique hollow]

solve from top to bottom

all the recipes you need, right here

figure out how many ingots this needs

[ornate echo]

how many rods does the rotor production need per minute, and out of these how many are rods and how many screws, and i need to adjust that calculation to know how many of my 16 rod producers have to be dedicated for screws and rods

[oblique hollow]

you have all the info here

[ornate echo]

anbd this math is to complicated for me because im mental

[oblique hollow]

I'll walk you through if needed

[ornate echo]

i will try to understand

[oblique hollow]

first: how many screws and rods for 5 assemblers making rotors

[ornate echo]

100 rods and 500 screws

[oblique hollow]

yep

now, how many rods are needed for 500 screws

simple division

500 / 40

[ornate echo]

1,25

[oblique hollow]

decimal error

[ornate echo]

12,5

[oblique hollow]

right, multiply that by 10

we now have the number of constructors, now we need the number of rods 12.5 constructors consume

if needed we can round down to 12

[ornate echo]

so i will dedicate 12 of my rod producers to screws, while the other 4 have to make 100 rods per minute, wich is mathematicly not possible right, because 4 x 15 is 60 and therefore not enough, wich means i cant have 5 assemblers runnning and need to rcalculate

am i right?

[oblique hollow]

yep. you need more constructors making rods

you need 100 + 120

because the 12 constructors making screws need 120 / min rods

220 rods per minute total

[ornate echo]

or i make 4 assemblers a minute and recalcute how many screws and rods that would need

[oblique hollow]

how about you start with 1

and then scale that up

[median heath]

Or just make 5 because you have the material to make 5 but you're self-inflicting an issue to force-prevent yourself from making 5....