math-and-meta

[boreal summit]

Just have to place the last tube for the angle each time

you can have a bp of just one mini tube segment and plop down as many as you need

[neon nexus]

thats exactly what i was asking xD

[boreal summit]

then place the last tube with the right angle/direction

don't have to bp the whole thing

[thorny cedar]

yea 20% of the time you travel right trough i tested

[neon nexus]

but sry english isnt my main language sometimes i struggle to be explicit

[thorny cedar]

but thats just my opinion

i dont care do what you want feel free

[neon nexus]

xD

[thorny cedar]

there is a bug going on with jump pads and walls if the distance is just a few hundred meters you might abuse this

someone linked a video somewhere i saw

looked pretty stable

[fierce ruin]

If I have 3* Uranium Normal nodes with Mk.3 at 250%, what is the maximum number of uranium rods I can get out?

[snow dove]

go on satisfactory tools, input the amount uranium you’re getting and set uranium fuel rods to maximize

[fierce ruin]

I am calculating 18 pcs per min

[snow dove]

then 18 per min is what you’ll get

[fierce ruin]

Makes 225.000,00 MW

[wind spade]

@graceful monolith see #math-and-meta message for what to pick

[stoic gorge]

if i dont use the plastic and it fill the refineries the byproduct will stop being produced too?

[median heath]

Correct.
This is where Smart Splitters come in handy, so you can send overflow to Sink and production never stops running.

[stoic gorge]

so if i understand correct, i can put a smart splittler right before the storage and put overflow and a sink?

[median heath]

You're feeding both Plastic and Rubber into 1 container?

[stoic gorge]

yes its just for a start

it wont be like this forever

[median heath]

I would make it 2, even from the start. Can then have 2 smarts (one for each) and then merge the Overflow lines into a single line that goes into a sink.

Just for simplicity.

[stoic gorge]

i ll do here and you tell me if i done it correctly

[median heath]

If this is the 300 oil setup, I can also just show you mine if you want to see it?

[stoic gorge]

yes, i did it the way you show me before

[median heath]

Gimme a minute to run over to that coast.

[stoic gorge]

looks good

[stoic gorge]

but mine is a bit different because i did the production very far away

and just bring the products by belts

i did here i ll show what i did, its pretty spaghetti bc i ll prob remove it soon

[median heath]

The 2 smarts are in sequence, first kicks all Plastic to the first container, and sends all Rubber and Overflow forwards.
Second kicks all Rubber to second container, and sends all Overflow of both types forwards.

[median heath]

For your first time building it, not bad.

[stoic gorge]

the midddle smart is separating rubber to plastic

then the others is set to any and one side is overflow that is going to the sink

[stoic gorge]

so you can configure one smart to go with rubber and overflow?

i didnt understand well

[median heath]

Inputs: Rubber and Plastic

Output: Plastic to Left, Rubber to Overflow (as it cannot go to the Left)

When Plastic fills, BOTH items will go to Overflow.

[stoic gorge]

so the overflow can also work to send something that is not plastic

[median heath]

Exactly.

Now you're getting into the power of Smart Splitters 🙂

[stoic gorge]

oh didnt knew that

thats really good

[median heath]

You almost never use the "Any" or "Any Undefined" settings.

You just use the specific items you want and then Overflow handles everything else.

[stoic gorge]

what is the diference in the any undefined?

[median heath]

It's more restrictive in what it allows through is the simplest way to say it.
You really will not ever use it unless you get into advanced sushi techniques, so I don't want to explain useless information to you at this time.

[stoic gorge]

ok man thanks for the help

[median heath]

👍

Ya'll making me want to do another Hub0 reset 😭

[stoic gorge]

why

[median heath]

Because I enjoy doing them. 🙂

[stoic gorge]

how many worlds do you have?

[median heath]

And whenever I get into the routine of talking about the game with people, it makes me want to run through progression again.

[median heath]

Only 1 at time. When I reset I delete the other one.
I have beaten the game 14 times though.

[stoic gorge]

yea its my first time going this far and in rlly enjoying it

[stoic gorge]

why delete?

its good to go back in the first worlds once you played the game a lot

[wind spade]

how do you beat sandbox

[median heath]

You and I define good differently.

Also I don't need to go back and look, because I remember what I did.

[median heath]

Fair 😁

[stoic gorge]

ok them

[median heath]

I'm going to start in the GF because I haven't done that in years.
Time to test if all the acquired knowledge makes it less painful 😄

[stoic gorge]

what is gf?

[median heath]

Grass Fields.

[stoic gorge]

ah ok

[median heath]

Unverisally agreed upon shit biome and the first mistake we all shared when playing the game 😄

[stoic gorge]

yeah

i had 3 worlds and all of them i started in the same place which i saw in the yt to be "the best starter place"

which really is

[median heath]

Best is subjective though 😉

[stoic gorge]

yea but at least for me, i didnt had to move more than 2km until now that i unlocked oil stuff

[median heath]

Rocky Desert will remain my highest recommendation to everyone.

[stoic gorge]

yeah i see i the interactive map its infinite copper and iron

[median heath]

Specifically the western coast of it.

[wind spade]

almost universally 😛

[prisma kraken]

i don't feel gf is that bad of a starting spot except for the distance to quartz

that's a huge issue though

[barren hill]

That and oil

[prisma kraken]

gold coast isn't very far and is pretty accessible

[median heath]

Oil is pretty equal-distant regardless of starting biome tbh

[prisma kraken]

except north forest that has enough for an intro build in its back yard

[barren hill]

The rocky dessert is pretty close to pure oil

[median heath]

West coast oil island is roughly the same trek south from RD as it is north from GF

[prisma kraken]

its about the same distance to oil from rd and dd as it is from gf

[barren hill]

Yeah ig lol

[median heath]

Only "starting area" that is closer than the others isn't actually a starting area. But it's a great place to start if you know to walk there.

[prisma kraken]

actually i think dd probably is farthest from oil, but its such a big place, it depends on what you conside the center of dd

[barren hill]

The west side of dd has 3 normal oil which I just used for my mega factory set up there but I started on rd so that was a fun little hike I made for myself

[median heath]

RD, imo, is the best starting biome.

[prisma kraken]

i think its a bit of a tie between rd and nf

but it really depends on what style of logistics you enjoy building

[barren hill]

I started there but then coal power was really hard to get hooked up since it was really far away and then on top of that steel production was hard ish but rn I am making a mega base on dd the west side and just funneling all my resources there via train

[prisma kraken]

i personnally really dislike RD, think it is the ugliest biome

[median heath]

If you're a megabaser then priorities shift.

[prisma kraken]

and really, the lack of coal in RD isn't great, but it has a lot of limestone and iron

[median heath]

RD power is just a matter of "build it up there and drag the power line down" and steel is as simple as "build it over there and have the tractor deliver it back to me" because there are great natural paths through the biome to do that (and they got even better in the U8 update of the biome)

[prisma kraken]

great for screws & concrete

[barren hill]

Lmao yeah it's my first times with trains too but I'm getting running basically 100% with overflow hitting sink. I have everything I can build with a constructor fully automated and almost done with tier 1 and 2 things

[prisma kraken]

rd also has quite a bit of copper, more than nf proper

but it is really spread out

[barren hill]

If you go by the drop pod by the big crater there is 6 pure iron 2 normal limestone and 4 pure Copper

[prisma kraken]

no place on the map has 4 pure copper

i may be mistaken on this, but i think the only place with 6 pure iron close together is the north forest glenn (its actually 9 if you include the ones bordering the coal lake as well)

the only real concentrations of pure copper nodes in the world are the north forest bluff, a small lake in titan forest with 3, and spread through a strip in dune desert

rd has a few spots with 2-3 normal nodes, but i think there's only one pure copper in the biome

pure vs normal copper nodes don't make a huge difference though

[wind spade]

"quartz" and "start" doesn't really work together

[mystic moon]

Idk, I tend to go for quartz asap

I want explorer & blade runners to go hdd hunting

[prisma kraken]

bladerunners and oscillators, and really all the tech in the quartz tree is super-nice to get unlocked early

[wind spade]

bladerunners need modular frames and explorer needs oscillators, both of which are not really "starting" items

[prisma kraken]

you can argue that there's not much of a point in having access before you unlock the manufacturer

[mystic moon]

Modular frames are typically t3 iirc?

[prisma kraken]

mod frames are t2

[wind spade]

well at t3 you already have tractor so you can do outposts

so moving from your start location is fine

[prisma kraken]

in u8, i don't think the explorer is even worth the materials to unlock it

in u7, there's definitely some worth to the explorer

[mystic moon]

Oh yeah, I completely forgot about the vehicle tweaks in u8...

I haven't tried the explorer yet

[median heath]

It feels... slower. Which is just... bad.

[mystic moon]

Yeah, the only thing that needed a nerf was its inventory size

[median heath]

They did nerf the inventory space of it, which combined with truck physics update is why trucks are finally the best trucking vehicle.

[mystic moon]

That's good at least.

[wind spade]

truck is best truck
ah yeah the floor here is made of floor

[median heath]

But it definitely didn't need the speed nerf (whether that was intentional or just a side effect of physics update, who knows)

[mystic moon]

Explorer is best for exploring... wait

[median heath]

On U7, truck is not best truck.

Explorer needs to be a tad faster and all vehicles need their turning adjusted because that shit just hurts to play with.
Other than that the U8 upgrade to vehicles is stellar.

[prisma kraken]

they're still derpy and not very good for complex logistics

all of them in u8 drive rather poorly due to an oversteer/understeer problem

the truck has improved quite a bit, but its still pretty useless except as a mobile ISC

what isn't very good is that all the vehicles feel about the same

there's a few bugs with the physics of driving all the vehicles that sometimes causes them to get stuck halfway in the terrain, you use them enough, you'll run into it and have to delete & rebuild the vehicle

and um, the physics update totally killed the charm and fun of the factory cart (which is now pretty undrivable) and cyber wagon (which now handles about as well as the truck)

[brittle terrace]

why can smart splitters do liquids?

[median heath]

Because liquids don't go on belts?

[cinder silo]

Liquids would pour all over the place if tipped in to a smart splitter 🤣 , don't do that.

[median heath]

Code oversight that will be fixed but is by no means priority.

[mystic moon]

@brittle terrace check to see if there's a post on the qa site for the issue
if there is, upvote it
if not, make one

[brisk shore]

Satisfactory Questions

You can send Questions, Feedback, Suggestions, and Bug Reports
https://questions.satisfactorygame.com
<3 @mystic moon

[median heath]

Whoever made the UI and functions for smarts/poggers just had it reference the list of all items but didn't implement a check for "beltable only".

Not complicated to fix (most likely), but they have other priorities.

First complication I can see is if nothing has been tagged as solid/fluid, because then you'd have to spend time making that system first, just to remove excess options from the smart/pogger that aren't actually affecting gameplay.

So... 🤷‍♂️

[brittle terrace]

yea i just saw it and didnt know if i was missing somthing or not a issue 🙂

[wind spade]

items do have solid/fluid/gas parameter

[median heath]

Ah, then fix is rather simple, but again, priorities 🤷‍♂️

[prisma kraken]

btw, is there a list posted somewhere of every item in the prog splitter's list? I'm looking for that in copy-pastable format

[brittle terrace]

Just wanted to share this with you guys 🙂 im experimenting with a board that shows everything goin on in my factory 🙂 never tried it but im excited to try it out

[wind spade]

overview is one word 🙂

[brittle terrace]

hmm... ur right...

[stoic gorge]

what programmer splitter do?

[median heath]

Same thing as a smart, just multiple options per side.

Extremely few optimal use-cases. And you most likely will never need to build one.

[stoic gorge]

hm ok thanks

is it worth to make computers by hand to unlock mk4 belts and be able to overclock miners so i dont need to get iron from very far?

[median heath]

That's entirely up to you.
Though I wouldn't make them. Just do a lap around the map. There are 300+ computers just lying on the ground next to drop pods.

[stoic gorge]

ok, i already did that because i needed to be off for some hours lol, but i was asking thinking in other future worlds

[barren elm]

Embrace the truck

It's perfect for lazy early-game mass transport, and unlike other methods, it's easy to get rid of once you want a more permanent solution

[median heath]

Embrace the truck as a permanent solution. 😁

[barren elm]

Satisfactory endgame is about making a convoluted train setup, and nobody can convince me otherwise

So the trucks sadly have to get replaced by glorious locomotive power

[dense cave]

pff, why do stop and go of trains when you can just mk5 belt everything in without interruption

[barren elm]

They look nice

[prisma kraken]

trains allow more flexibility, a belt can only go one place, trains can be rerouted to another intermediate factory. Good example, taking computers that were being shipped to central storage to some place with aluminum casings to make rcu's

plus if you consider trains with multiple cars, they're much higher throughput than mk5 belts

[magic island]

trains are good for bundling together many belts/pipes worth of stuff to travel along the same route

or conveniently exchanging items between different locations along one route

[prisma kraken]

there's some things i think trains are very useful for in the game: moving plastic & rubber from a recycled build, getting bauxite to copper (or vice versa), marshalling quartz and limestone to the same place for HSC's are probably the big things that they're really nice for, given that they're pretty high-volume products (or their components are). But once you have a pretty built out rail network, moving stuff gets a lot easier, it becomes more of an exercise in figuring out where to place train stations and get the trains turned around

that being said, building rails is incredibly time consuming and does take a rediculous amount of space

but here's an example of something that was much less effort from my building last evening... I had a copper alloy plant set up to make 960 ingots on mk4 tech that was inputing into a 4-car train... i tore that down to rebuild it as a pure copper 780 build, and didn't need to change a thing besides the factory

if i were doing that with belts, not only would i have had to upgrade the full 2 belts spanning the distance, but i would have had to add a 3rd belt to the run

[frosty owl]

Heh... I'm curious to see how long you can keep it up good luck!

[frosty owl]

(Also) they can split mixed belts evenly (think 1 normal splitter per item involved, but just 1 prog. splitter used).

[frosty owl]

Come try some SIS, we have interesting early-game challenges/different issues to solve

[median heath]

What is SIS?

[vapid gorge]

single input sushi belt

[thorny root]

Why is my consumption higher than my max consumption? What is connected to this line: 36 Coal Power Plant @ 100%, 2 Mk2 Miner @ 225%, 20 Water Generator @ 67.5%, 2x Water Pump.

Water Generator usage: 238 / ???

Miners: 70.2 / ???

And the pumps are using 4 each. Combined, my actual sustained usage is 316.2 MW.

So why does it say it's 444.2 MW

[thorny root]

Mystery solved. I assumed that by putting the water generators at alternating 67 / 68 / 67 / 68 etc... that everything would be fine. But that is exactly what was throwing the math off.

Manually setting each one to exactly 67.5 "fixed" it

[prisma kraken]

you ran into a bug where the power used by machines only is right if you set the clock speed after connecting them to power

[thorny root]

Ooooh

[stoic gorge]

its impossible to use max efficiency in a miner mk.3 with more than 150% in a pure node?

[delicate chasm]

Yeah, currently you are limited by belt speed, not miner speed. CSS has come up with a solution to this but hasn't shared it yet.

[elfin thorn]

Mk 6 belts kappa.gif

[delicate chasm]

Potentially slowing the miners down so 780 becomes the Mk3 max, adding a second belt output to Mk3 miners so that 1560 becomes max, or creating double belts that move 2 items at a time instead of 1 item.

Potentially other solutions too but I'd guess one of these 3 is easier than solving whatever specific issues exist with making faster belts.

[wind spade]

162.5%

[stoic gorge]

sulfur is used for what besides black powder?

[thorny cedar]

https://satisfactory.wiki.gg/wiki/Sulfur

[stoic gorge]

thanks

[main dirge]

Personally hoping the solution that happens to mk3 miners is just something like defaulting it to 390/m or 520/m and limiting the number of power shards you can put in, purely because I've spent so much time doing maths on a resource-limited factory 🥲

[stoic gorge]

when can this alternative recipe be useful? because it uses the same materials but you need more quantity then the original recipe

[wind spade]

it makes them faster, so if you want to save on power or space, you may consider it

if you're looking for saving materials, then obviously you don't want to use it

[stoic gorge]

hm ok

[median heath]

Multiple recipes like this exist where the tradeoff is "higher material cost, lower space cost"

If space isn't a metric you care about it, then you will choose other things.

In the same way that there are plenty of recipes where the trade is "lower material cost, higher space cost"

[stoic gorge]

got it

[median heath]

This is the nature of "best is subjective."

All alt recipes are a tradeoff. You decide if that tradeoff is worth it or not.

[stoic gorge]

the coke layout you send me that feeds 18 coal plants is 18 coal plants without oscillation?

[median heath]

I would never build oscillating power.

I abhore yellow lights on both power and production machines.

Everything at 100% eff, always.

[minor jacinth]

the satisfactory mindset

[thorny cedar]

sitting shivering in the corner slowly wipping yellow lights yellow light

[median heath]

You'd be surprised how many people intentionally let things stall out because they refuse to use the Sink.

Not the like the Dev added the Sink to be used or anything...

[minor jacinth]

i always try and load balance as much as i can

[median heath]

Balancer vs. Manifold is a different discussion.

This is more like "storage is full, guess everything should just stall now" instead of routing excess to Sink until storage becomes unfull.

[minor jacinth]

What’s the difference?

[median heath]

Between which of the 2 things mentioned?

[minor jacinth]

Yesh

[median heath]

I mentioned 2 different comparison concepts, please specific which you want clarified.

Balancer vs. Manifold

Or

Stall vs. Sink

[minor jacinth]

balancer vs manifold

[deft lichen]

you can also counterbalance the higher resource cost by e.g. using a screw alt (the plate to RIP ratio stays the same, but it uses more screws)

[wind spade]

balancer: you build splitters and mergers in a way that all machines get the same amount of items

              |
      +-------S-------+
      |               |
  +---S---+       +---S---+
  |       |       |       |
+-S-+   +-S-+   +-S-+   +-S-+
|   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   
X   X   X   X   X   X   X   X

manifold: you build row of splitters and let it balance itself

--S--S--S--S--S--S--S--S
  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |
  X  X  X  X  X  X  X  X

[median heath]

^ Greeny knows how to type the images, I do not @minor jacinth

The END RESULT of both methods is exactly the same. It is purely a configuration difference.

[barren hill]

Manifold is best bc easy to set up

[wind spade]

manifold is easy to set up (but best is subjective)

[prisma kraken]

balanced splitting has some advantages as well, in that machines flip on when input is provided all at once. Rarely does this make a big difference, but with things like a coal plant, it actually helps you debug problems with water supply with less hassle

i'll also interject that there are several types of balancers that haven't been mentioned, the N:M equal input balancer, and the N:M uneven input balancer

they're somewhat necessary with some late game builds where you're pulling in multiple whole mining nodes and trying to get the right amount of stuff to the right production manifold

(cheap silica comes to mind)

[barren hill]

Bestests

[minor jacinth]

Ahh

[minor jacinth]

Thank you

[prisma kraken]

both ways of distributing input are valid, its good to understand what the strengths and weaknesses of each are, and use the one that fits your application

[minor jacinth]

Then I guess I use manifolds, because those are easiest to build

But I guess the advantage of balancers would be that every machine gets an equal amount constantly

but the machines with manifolds, if you place the input at one end, that first conveyer to the side into a machine gets filled first

[prisma kraken]

it rarely makes a huge difference, and opting for the ease of building manifolds makes sense in many cases, but for power related things (coal and nuclear primarily), i do use balanced splitting

[delicate chasm]

If you want your nuclear power to for example be a walkable factory without a hazmat suit, you'd load balance and keep minimal amounts of radioactive materials in machines and on belts at all times - so everything is being processed at once.

[prisma kraken]

and also, there's a few recipes like stitched plate that when you use a manifold to feed it, it takes hours for the manifold to 'warm up' because wire is a 500-stack item, that means the machine buffers take forever to fill

another place for balancers is extremely low volume late game production

like passing PCC's to particle accelerators for making pasta

[delicate chasm]

I'm a "bang rocks together to do science" kind of guy, so I pre-produce an ISC or two of most things before building a factory that uses those things, so that I can just manifold and hand-fill before turning it all on.

[median heath]

If you pre-feed the system every machine immediately starts getting the same amount constantly and you don't have to wait for anything to spool up.

[minor jacinth]

true

[thorny cedar]

the downside of a manifold if you lost track and you troubleshoot in the end

[median heath]

Don't lose track 😉 Simple.

[thorny cedar]

it takes some time if you underfed the bottom lines to even see the results

[prisma kraken]

you do make another good point, manifolds are more difficult to troubleshoot

[thorny cedar]

yea but you know the splitter whos always facing the wrong way ;D

i mean its not bad you set it up let it run come back after some time and take a look

[median heath]

Skill issue

[prisma kraken]

for me, its more a loop around belt that jumped connection spots as i built it

[wind spade]

tbh there's not really much point of having nuclear walkable, given that it's probably built somewhere at the edge of map anyway and once it starts working there's no reason to go there

[thorny cedar]

i dont want to know if you ever goofed your sushi but that is way more painful to fix i guess :3

[prisma kraken]

used to be important when the hoverpack and hazmat suit shared the same slot

[median heath]

Oh at the outset of Update 5 all smart splitters were borked and it was a fucking nightmare.

[thorny cedar]

😦

[prisma kraken]

that was update 6

personal storage for every base if you fed it with sushi lines ground to a halt

i think the same happened in update 7

yeah, b/c i upgraded and played with the BPM for like a half hour before noticing the eerie silence of my factory stopping, lol

[median heath]

It's all good.
I did a Hub0 reset yesterday and am up to Steel, so this is the first real sushi setup of this run 🙂

[brittle terrace]

here is how its goin

[delicate chasm]

It's an engineering project you can set as a goal; I mean really there's very little that's worth doing otherwise.

[prisma kraken]

that's so much work to layout, lol, looks great though

[prisma kraken]

its also a bit practical to at least balance the UFR output to the generators, if you have a lot in manifold, the amount of time to warm it all up is on the order of days, not hours

(and you can't tell me you're going to make an ISC's worth of UFR's to prefill it all, lol

[delicate chasm]

Absolutely not! 🤣
Yeah, rods I balanced my first ever build of.

[wind spade]

usually when you build new NPP, you don't need all the power at the start anyway (and takes a long time to need most of the power)

[prisma kraken]

i also have an 8 constructor bp for concrete that uses a balancer... because i build that at a remote build site, it makes me concrete at full rate when i drop it

it would be foolish to say that 'balancers are better' as a blanket statement, but i feel that a lot of people who favor manifolds don't ever gain the experience of building compact balancers, and they get a bum rap for being 'too hard' or 'too large', etc

[brittle terrace]

yea just thought it looked nice 🙂 i dont mind the time

[prisma kraken]

i've tried doing similar a few times, and just found it to be kind of a time-hole, lol

[stoic gorge]

yea it was oscillating for a time but now it isnt anymore, i have no ideia why this was happening

[brittle terrace]

Does anyone have a tool/website for making balancers? i need a 6 -> 8 balancer

[median heath]

Google "Satisfactory 6 to 8 Balancer"

[neon nexus]

hi, in order to get all of the tanks to be filled up from the left and emptied on the right do i have to place a pipeline pump on each pipes or just one by tanks pillar ?

[brittle terrace]

oh god

[median heath]

Uh.. step one: Don't use fluid buffers.

[brittle terrace]

xD i was bout to say the same

[thorny cedar]

just why

[brittle terrace]

there isnt really any need for that

[thorny cedar]

bcs he can

[neon nexus]

exactly

[thorny cedar]

and for your question

[neon nexus]

and why not xD

[thorny cedar]

yes

[brittle terrace]

i cant find

[median heath]

If you are self-inflicting niche issues on yourself, expect to have to solve them yourself.

[thorny cedar]

make it a "row"

[median heath]

Because they never help.
They either do nothing or cause problems.

The only time they should ever be used is in conjunction with fluid trains.

[neon nexus]

can they really cause that much problems ?

[thorny cedar]

yea sev is right dont expect helpt but.. make it a "row"

[thorny cedar]

storing items make your game lag at some point

store enough items and you cant play

[median heath]

Yes.

[neon nexus]

alright thx for the warning i'll use only a few until i'm finished setting up my fuel power plant

[thorny cedar]

yea tru the number for that to happen is high

but still dont overdo it bcs its still just 600m³ per minute😄

[median heath]

Second?

[thorny cedar]

doh

second would be better 😛

[neon nexus]

im still with mk1 pipelines anyway xDDD

[oblique hollow]

this is too tall for just a single mk 1 pump

soooo not enough head lift to fill it all the way

[neon nexus]

i went for the row as suggested by Hayli
but thx anyway ^^

[barren hill]

Which one?

[median heath]

All.

[thorny cedar]

but probs to the handy cam

[wind spade]

see #math-and-meta message

[barren hill]

well i accidenlt re rolled it and i got HOR for turbo fuel im winngin

[median heath]

Is Turbofuel winning though?

[barren hill]

it is not i did the calcs and its worse i messed up

[minor jacinth]

wait what

i just saw this in screenshots,

how is this possible

[stoic gorge]

lets say i have a 240 p min miner for two process, the first needs 120 and the second 112.5, in order to use 100% of the miner, i can put a smart splitter and split 2 for the process that it need with no specfic configuration and another one set for overflow and sink it?

[wind spade]

you can also underclock the miner

but otherwise yeah

[main dirge]

Spam click the screen

[stoic gorge]

so if i underclock for it mine 232.5 things will adjust automatically overtime?

[wind spade]

yeah, it's basically a manifold

[stoic gorge]

how much fuel to 100% a fuel gen?

[thorny root]

I'm learning something: Making plastic is not so hard. Making plastic efficiently is ridiculous. (Curse you heavy oil residue)

[snow dove]

12 fuel/min

[snow dove]

how dare you curse our lord and savior HOR

[thorny root]

because atm I'm new to it and I'm still figuring out how I want to deal with it. ATM all its doing it standing between me and streamlined computer production.

[snow dove]

that’s when you turn it into petroleum coke and throw it in a coal gen

[thorny root]

I'm thinking about doing that.

But unless I'm confused (quite possible) I can turn it into electricity via the fuel generator?

[snow dove]

yeah you just turn it into fuel

hor to fuel via residual fuel

or diluted fuel

[thorny root]

Cool. All 3 are options. I'm in the "blue crater" area

[prisma kraken]

you can even package hor and burn it in vehicles, but turning it into coke and burning it in coal gens is a fine way of disposing of it

[snow dove]

one of the best areas for a fuel power plant

i think i’m putting an 85GW fuel plant there

[thorny root]

I didn't start there. I was drawn there by the oil. Needed for plastic.

But my first base was absolute crap, scattered, disconnected, jumbled mess.

I'm taking this opportunity to do some... better planning.

[barren elm]

Check out the west oil island and northern oil deposits too, both also great places for a power plant

[prisma kraken]

how i'm starting to do oil builds is that usually you need something like 400 or 800 plastic/rubber for another factory build (doesn't matter the exact number; its usually in that range), I will pick an oil node or two and convert it to hor & dilluted fuel, use that to make only the plastic and rubber i need for the other factory, and use the rest of fuel for power

[thorny root]

I've got my power problem mostly solved. I'm not short on it because that's the only thing I've figured out how to build at large scale so far and I can't keep anything else running for very long XD

I'm focusing almost all my production at the blue crater area into plastic, and then through to computers.

[prisma kraken]

i'm finding it is incrementally adding nice chunks of power to my grid as i build other stuff

[thorny root]

Don't have much need for rubber yet. I know I will likely later but...

I do have an area reserved for that.

[prisma kraken]

you actually, in my experience end up needing about 2x the rubber as of plastic

but it really all depends on how big your building

in the plan i'm working toward, the tally for each is just shy of 5000/min

both rubber and plastic are very useful in making rips

steel coated plate, adhered plate and steel rod is about the cheapest combo of recipes for making mf's

[thorny root]

I'm on Phase 3 atm. All I am really planning around is what the project part requirements are, and supplying the parts for unlocking various milestones, and as a side task I'm planning and expanding the factory as needed... but I spend a lot of time redoing and even more time thinking about it.

So... it's a learning process... I just learn slow.

A lot of time is spent doing manual labor while daydreaming about the ideal factory layout that I'm wanting to build but every time I start a section I run into... complications XD

So... I have a lot of disconnected sections of factory that keep being rebuilt.

[jovial lake]

just consider what parts you use on regular basis, for the lower tier that'd be Iron Rod, Iron Plate, Wire, Cable, Concrete, etc... then see if your production facility can keep up with a projected frenzied usage of said parts and if not, expand it

If possible, expand it to 1.5 or even 2 times what you would require, for future proofing

[thorny root]

I have learned to at least do expandable designs. My capacity on various lines keeps increasing as I unlock tech.

[prisma kraken]

i kind of find that no matter how modular and expandable i try to make things, in the future i find issues with things i didn't anticipate that cause me to tear down things, lol

[jovial lake]

I would suggest reading the wiki and planning way ahead but eh

[prisma kraken]

oh i do, but there are times you just come up with a better idea or change your mind, etc

i've been building non-stop for about 2 weeks now with a plan in mind, and the plan hasn't really changed, but i've decided to do some things differently than i originally conceived

and there's been some things i haven't anticipated, like i thought tapping the rocky desert nitrogen well for both gas and to make nitric acid would satisfy my need, but it is a little short of that need

which is fine, but a train station i built is going to end up unused

its stuff like that

[thorny root]

I'm on a roll now. I got WHERE and HOW to put my refineries figured out. And I'm going to build the rest of the factory around that!

I have 40 refineries making plastic. The oil in is up the middle, in a dual mk2 manifold. This is the most refineries I can put on 2 mk2 pipes. This gives 400 heavy oil residue. Collected along a common manifold that wraps around back. This is also connected to rubber production which generates another 200 heavy oil residue. Combined, this generates 600 HOR.

Shortly, I will extend the rubber line to generate 600 more HOR. And then... I will begin building my HOR refineries to turn it into fuel.

Rubber in the back, center to right. (currently a very short line)

I feel like I fought the terrain for 2 days trying to find the right place to start building where I could just keep going in both directions for as long as I needed.

[frosty owl]

Mine broke with U8 too, who would have thought ||also U7 but whatever...||

[ornate nimbus]

what makes the Factory Overviews?

[ornate nimbus]

like from #math-and-meta message
are those hand-made or something that will read a save or mod?

[wind spade]

Hand made

[ornate nimbus]

ok, thanks

[stoic gorge]

a manifold like this works?

[steep flint]

no im pretty sure it doesnt

[wind spade]

yeah but fluid manifolds should be looped

[wind spade]

why wouldn't it?

[steep flint]

why are you trolling wtf

[wind spade]

why wouldn't it work

[steep flint]

idk but ive tested the same thing in 100 different wys

and that doesnt work

[wind spade]

and there's like milion of players that built this and it works so 🤷‍♂️ you probably did something wrong

[elder mountain]

i would agree to wilderpirat cuz its not connected to the fuelgenerators

[summer flare]

Use two of these

[steep flint]

source: trust me brro i have milion friends

[stoic gorge]

i didnt connected yet

[wind spade]

source: I'm on this discord since game release

manifolds work

<@&387163995947270144>

[stoic gorge]

the thing i want to know if it works is that long line to another place

[wind spade]

it will work, but as a security measure, I'd loop the pipe

[steep flint]

it wont work

[stoic gorge]

wdym?

[snow dove]

You place a secondary pipe above the primary

[stoic gorge]

i ll test it, if it starts oscilating i tell here

[snow dove]

It does work when done correctly

[stoic gorge]

im sorry but i didnt understand yet

[wind spade]

take the end of the pipe and connect it to the start of the manifold

[wind spade]

like this

[stoic gorge]

oh ok you already sent

[elder mountain]

now it works

[stoic gorge]

thanks man

[elder mountain]

cuz its connectet to the generators

[stoic gorge]

but i didnt did that on my coal plant it works well

[steep flint]

cap

[wind spade]

it's not a requirement, but it helps in many cases

[snow dove]

it helps alleviate the affects of backflow

[wind spade]

fyi moderators have deletion logs, so they will still see your message 🙂

[snow dove]

by providing an alternate route for the fluid to flow if backflow fills up the throughput counter

[steep flint]

i havnt delted anything wtf xd

deleted*

[wind spade]

oh, not even the message with that m word 👀

[steep flint]

no

[snow dove]

to be fair it might've been a mod

[steep flint]

yea

[stoic gorge]

what ill provide more energy in the end? turning hor into fuel and go to fuel gens or turning into coke and send to coal gens

[wind spade]

depends on recipes

[stoic gorge]

the default of each

[wind spade]

idk what is "default"

residual fuel provides slightly more power than residual coke
diluted (packaged) fuel provides way more

[stoic gorge]

but you can't use packaged fuel to fuel gens

[wind spade]

I'm aware

[stoic gorge]

so how can it produces way more power?

there is a gen that accept it?

[snow dove]

you unpackage it

[wind spade]

no, it's a name of a recipe

[stoic gorge]

oh ok srry

[wind spade]

"diluted packaged fuel" is alternate recipe

[snow dove]

you have diluted packaged fuel, which takes packaged water and HOR and produces packaged fuel, which you can then unpack
and you have diluted fuel, which takes water and HOR in a blender and produces fuel

same ratios tho, 2water+1HOR:2 Fuel

[stoic gorge]

so its double more power compared to the normal recipe

[snow dove]

residual fuel is 6HOR to 4 fuel, so it's a bit better than that

not including the consumption of the buildings tho

so about 3x better

[brittle terrace]

I figure if out 🙂

[stoic gorge]

wow

i might have skipped this recipe a few times

[snow dove]

you need the HOR alt to make it even better, but even just the diluted recipe alone is good

[neon nexus]

hi, idk why but my fuel isnt flowing even with a pump right after this pipe

any idea why ? :/

[thorny cedar]

delete the pipe delete the pump sometimes if you clip pumps to pipes you leave some small pipe somewhere and the thing ends there idk

[steep flint]

me when i play fortnite:

[wind spade]

#off-topic-media plz

[steep flint]

and thats my mom:

[thorny cedar]

time for a mod?

[elder mountain]

broo hahahahahah

[steep flint]

i want to have fun in my life

not evryday boring games (league of legends) and just tryhard

[thorny cedar]

currently you spam in the wrong channel

[steep flint]

cap

[wind spade]

sigh... what's happening today

<@&387163995947270144>

[brittle terrace]

i may have overcomplicated it but this is what i did

[thorny root]

@wind spadeI just found your calculator via web search and it's awesome. Might be the best one I've seen.

[median heath]

Not a question of "might be".
It is 😁🙃

[brittle terrace]

it is indeed 🙂

[summer flare]

It looks like it 🙂 You'd normally do 3 to 4 if available belts or throughput prevented inputs from being merged and it looks like each 3 are a single feed being split. Maybe could have been done with each feed just split 4 ways.

[brittle terrace]

this is true also just like how this one looks and it dose it all the same 🙂

[vapid gorge]

why load balance if it's all going to storage?

[thorny root]

Very happy with the progress. As planned, the 40x refinery producing rubber went in without a hitch. I now have 40 rubber along the back left to right, and 40 plastic running far to near up the middle. Using 2400 Oil per minute. Next step: 20 more refinery. 10 on each end. Turns the HOR into fuel. And then I build fuel generators!

[brittle terrace]

just storage to test

[prisma kraken]

can i ask you why you're using residual fuel instead of dilluted fuel?

@thorny cedar watch it you!

[thorny root]

Because I don't have 10,000 hours and all the recipes

I am already aware that this entire factory will become sub optimal as soon as I get that capability. But I'm not rebuilding it any time soon.

[median heath]

🤷‍♂️ Fuel is just your bridge power to get to nuclear, so I wouldn't sweat it too much.
Looks good.

[thorny root]

Honestly... I was just happy to find out that all this plastic I need was going to end up creating power to run the factory.

That's how much of a noob I am. XD

[prisma kraken]

hey, we were all there at one point 🙂

tbh, i didn't realize you count make that much plastic & rubber in blue crater w/o using a recycled loop

[thorny root]

Really.

800 / minute of each: Fuel, Rubber, Plastic

That's the plan.

That'll generate 10,000 MW via 66.6 (repeating of course) fuel generators

And then I can start planning steel, copper, and iron lines... This whole thing is about to become one big computer factory.

(the steel is for motors)

Basically the left half will end up mostly doing computers, and the right half is... a blank slate.

I built all those coal generators thinking this was going to be permanent. I realized when I was about 2/3 of the way done building them that I could not proceed because there was a giant terrain obstacle under the platform blocking the layout that I was using for water generators (I know, easy fix, but I really wanted it to be tidy) forcing me to re-think. I didn't expect to need that much power any time soon. I had 2700 mw up and running, stable. So I started building the refineries that I came there to build in the first place. And then I discovered heavy oil residue... and spent a while researching how to deal with that. I decided to deal with it properly required a huge and carefully balanced system otherwise it was going to be high maintenance constantly OR extremely wasteful... so I started developing this big plan. I built the first 40 plastic refineries and 10 rubber refineries, and when I went to power everything up I exceeded my power limit by about 3% causing my coal plant to shut down. Rather than spending the next 20 minutes rebooting it I decided to load the last auto save, since most of my time had just been spent sitting and thinking...

So much for being content with 2700 mw. But seeing that 10,000 number for the end goal... I think I'm going to be happy rippping out all those coal plants after I online the fuel generators.

[delicate chasm]

Even better is the feeling. Once you finish the 10GW, the coal generators are decorations. It's a great feeling.

[thorny root]

My power situation is now... scary. I have a high production loop that if it ever caps out or if any part of it gets disconnected or messed up somehow, I go into cascade shutdown and it would take an act of congress to get it back up and running again.

I think the first thing I'm going to do after onlineing the fuel generators is build a massive battery storage bank.

Enough for 2 hours at full tilt.

[thorny cedar]

so if its scary i see already and you can have just one or 2 big buffers filled with fuel once they are full close the valve and leave it as battery if anything happens 🙂

but the base oil rec is rather straight forward

just make sure the rubber and plastic never backs up

[thorny root]

No... atm those are just there to make it less tedious to check the system. Right now they're just there to give the HOR somewhere to go. I flush the system regularly when I want to run a test.

I do not plan on using any fluid buffers in the design.

[delicate chasm]

Moonchild posted here and I subsequently stole this idea of building platforms containing power storages under the power towers. It's a pretty good way of getting a lot of storage, too - and makes the towers a little better for ziplining, to boot.

[thorny root]

... oh. I should read all of what you said before responding.

Yes that is actually a good idea.

I will implement this suggestion @ the fuel gen area, and I will put a vertical kink in the pipe so it doesn't all flow back downhill.

[prisma kraken]

tbh, something i've always done pre-powertower is when i'm building a coal plant, i always build at least 1 power storage per generator, which give a nice buffer

[delicate chasm]

That's what I always did also. 100MWh is an hour and 20 minutes of coal generation.

[prisma kraken]

i.e. it isn't 8+3, but 8+3+10

i just drop 10 of them behind the generators, one per foundation

[delicate chasm]

Oh, my elder brother also copied and modified my design, but made a stackable variant and has external wall outlets to connect levels together so they can go anywhere there is room and be any height.

It's 400MWh per layer as well.

[prisma kraken]

i don't need the outlets because the storages only have a single connection 😄

[delicate chasm]

Yeah, same. The top one has both connections in his case, so if he doesn't stack he uses extra materials.

[prisma kraken]

i may add connection points sometime in the future, but the wall nubs have issues with pillars right now in u8, and i didn't want to fight with it

definitely did think about doing so

with commonly used bp's though, i'm a fan of keeping the object count in them minimal

[thorny cedar]

i have the feeling the wallnubs are #1 crash cause for me somehow

idk most of the time i crash i do smth with them

[delicate chasm]

Yeah. I like the way the one I made looks but the inventory for building 20 of them was annoying to procure.

[prisma kraken]

i caught for the first time the other day a power cable connected to the right place but not connected

[thorny cedar]

many times of that they tried some "auto connect" shenanigans while placing

[delicate chasm]

This gets to be more of a design discussion though so...

[prisma kraken]

i've heard about that happening, but never had seen it before

[thorny cedar]

but you saw a power cable connection without a nub befor?

[prisma kraken]

what i mean is the cable was distinctly connected, but a machine didn't have power until i rebuilt it, kinda the same way pipes fail to connect

[delicate chasm]

Now that IS weird.

[prisma kraken]

i've seen it with belts, i've seen it with pipes, but just for the 1st time saw it with a power line

which in probably 10k hrs+ means its pretty rare, lol

i guess there's some sort of condition in the code where connection events just don't register completely 🤷

i don't think there's really any known way of reproducing it

but i've seen it happen in people's game streams dozens of times

99% of the time with pipes

[thorny root]

I like how the craft bench has a toaster oven built in so you can have quick an easy access to pizza rolls while you work. That's meta af.

[barren elm]

I'll be honest, I thought it was some kind of mini forge

[snow dove]

probably is, but really does look like a toaster oven

in our hearts it’s a toaster oven

[barren elm]

Hence why the controls are off to the side, and the door looks like it's strong enough to repel genghis khan

[snow dove]

heavy duty toaster oven

[barren elm]

But toast does seem like it'd fit coffee stain

[snow dove]

strong enough to resist even the hungriest pioneers

[mystic moon]

Food court

[thorny root]

It only took me 3 days but... I finally completed the refinery / fuel loop. 800 rubber and 800 plastic (40 refineries each, into sinks for now), and 1200 HOR. 20 more refineries, the HOR becomes 800 fuel per minute into 67 fuel generators for 10,000 mw.

Now... I can demolish the coal.

[vague garnet]

I did too tbh

There’s 2

[tough ember]

heya i wondered is Satisfactory Turing complete? I haven't explored the Logic components much yet, cheers

[wind spade]

it is

you can make and, or and not gates with relative ease

[tough ember]

awesome thanks

[quick bronze]

anyone on experimental know how to raise hypertube and pipe supports as your building all i can get them to do is tilt?

[barren hill]

120 rubber/min, 110 plastic/min, 20 package turbo fuel/min, and 32 fuel generators running on turbo fuel

oh and 60 poly/min too

[snow dove]

when you ask a question, at least wait a little to see if you get a response before you post the same question in another channel

[tropic cape]

Move the mouse

[median heath]

🐁 💨

[wind spade]

or even better, post only in one channel, in this case #satisfactory-experimental

[thorny root]

Building a small fuel reserve just in case something goes very wrong. Also... I just learned that valves are in fact check valves... because I put mine on backwards and spent 10 minutes trying to figure out why flow had dropped to 0.

11 fluid buffer, every other one has a mk2 pump on it, and a valve at the bottom to close it off when it's full.

[wind spade]

and now you need to learn to never build fluid buffers or valves 🙂

[thorny root]

I want this safety net. I understand why everyone hates them. Liquids slosh and they cause the whole system to vary more. I get it.

I'm taking it out of the loop when it's full.

[wind spade]

🤷‍♂️ your save, your rules

[thorny root]

Indeed.

[wind spade]

just be mindful that valves are basically pointless now and best case they do nothing, worst case they hurt your thing

[thorny root]

It's a check valve. It's stopping the flow from going downhill while I try to pump an absurd amount of fuel up an absurd hill. I'd say they definitely serve at least one purpose.

[wind spade]

pumps already do that

[thorny root]

And if the pump is off?

[wind spade]

then you're not pumping anything upwards anyway

[thorny root]

Either it allows backflow when it's powered off or it doesn't.

Which is it?

[wind spade]

if it's not powered, then you're not doing "pump an absurd amount of fuel up an absurd hill"

[thorny root]

You're so very carefully dodging the question and thusly seeing my point.

[wind spade]

it stops flow backwards, if it's powered, it also adds headlift

[oblique hollow]

pumps that are off just dont apply head lift

if unpowered, they STILL prevent backflow

but you wont get any lift

[thorny root]

Okay, that's a solid answer. I'll take it. Thanks.

So I can take the valve out, keep the first pump in, and be set!

[oblique hollow]

probably?

[thorny root]

😄 Thanks.

[wind spade]

@devout yacht see #math-and-meta message for alt recipe choices

[prisma kraken]

what happens with buffers is that fluids never stabilize due to an issue with the simplicitic simulation of them

but as for fuel reserves, do what you will, i'd say a bunch of power storage is more useful for such purposes though

[thorny root]

Diagnosing instability is always fun... And this is such a delicate balance...

If anything backs up, at least one part of everything stops.

I cannot seem to move the HOR fast enough. There's some tiny imbalance or resistance to the flow somewhere and it's causing chain reaction traffic jams.

[mystic moon]

Did you loop your manifolds?

[thorny root]

The HOR manifold is looped yes.

It connects 21+21 plastic and rubber (front) with 19+19 plastic and rubber (back) and it is bridged on both ends, and its mk2 the whole way

And then on the rubber end, it continues to 10+10 refinery doing fuel.

[vapid gorge]

input manifolds should be looped
And just follow it backwards - are the fuel gens starving? ok are the refineries backed up cause they can't output and something is blocking or are they starved?

[thorny root]

so I have 660 HOR flow on the front and 560 on the back and it is bridged at both ends (at the far far end and at the end right before the refinery cluster turning the HOR into fuel)

However I have made some changes recently and I expect this to do... something. I will watch.

So this should work, no?

[vapid gorge]

do you mean 540?

[thorny root]

Yes probably.

Yes definitely.

[vapid gorge]

well you can't have 660 flow anywhere at one point

so it entirely depends on your set up

[thorny root]

Right. That's what the bridges are for.

I'm forcing 30 from each side to go "backwards"

but it only has to go backwards in one direction.

Actually I'm forcing 60 from the front side onto the back side lane... is more accurate

[vapid gorge]

Sure, but it depends where they are at.

But honestly you're breaking the first rule of piping - keep it simple.

much much much better and easier to manage and fix if you send fluid from point A to point B without un needed merges and splits

[thorny root]

Yep. I 100% understand that. The same problem that makes fluid buffers something to avoid can also impact large and complicated pipe manifolds.

Seems the best way to have it go is one way only.

[vapid gorge]

Yup.

[thorny root]

I will wait and see if this stabilizes. If it does not, I will do something about it.

[vapid gorge]

if you had problems with the system my first instruction would be to split the manifold. It's not impossible to make it work but it's very often a giant head ache

[thorny root]

If I could just get it into its rhythm... it should be unstoppable XD

[vapid gorge]

did you pre flood the system too?

[thorny root]

Well yes and no.

As a part of diagnosing the problems I've yanked on all of the levers to drain multiple things multiple times.

[vapid gorge]

alright.

Loop all the input manifolds. Fuel included
Pre flood
Hope

[thorny root]

I know that's not helping XD

I could... go to the front line... count down 2 machines from the end... and break the loop.

And force 600 front along the front, and force 60 front along the rear.

Just by removing the connection

[vapid gorge]

generally the better option yes

[thorny root]

I suppose I should remove both bridges...

[vapid gorge]

Look, you can get merged fluid manifolds to work. Sometimes it works straight off the bat too. But ime generally it's a massive pain i nteh ass

[thorny root]

I'm using what I understand about how fluids slosh irl to imagine what's going on in the system... and I imagine that's exactly what's going on. Also none of my pipes are flooded. They're all basically running on vapor. I'm going to have to shut down the power plant to let it all catch up. Gotta swap back over the coal loop for a little while XD

Yeah. Somehow I've got all 3 pipe networks: Oil, HOR, and FUEL all basically empty in the pipe but the shit's running at 95% anyway lmao.

So I gotta be really close.

[vapid gorge]

ehhh I wouldn't go that far.

The sloshing is mostly do to machines pulling fluid from the middle of a manifold and the fluid further ahead decides it's more empty backwards and flows back. If you loop it then fluid can come from both directions

If you pre flood your system, including the machines consuming, then you can prevent most gaps in the pipes as well. Double prong attack

[thorny root]

I'm going to try to flood the system with it running... By turning off some of the fuel generators I am hoping that fuel, and then HOR, and then OIL will all slowly start to fill up over time.

I expect this to take hours. Good time to build something else.

[vapid gorge]

that's generally the best way to do it, shouldnt take hours though. if it does then you know you have a flow issue and things are stuttering

[thorny root]

Well... I mean... Based on my experience in games with piss poor fluid simulation, sometimes it can take a very very long time for that little chaos variable to calm down.

[vapid gorge]

nah, it's not actually a bad sim of it. Doesn't have hammering which is good.

But if it's taking hours then theres something wrong with the layout turning off a couple machines or clocking them to 1% should fill up things fairly fast

[thorny root]

Unrelated: I once made a map on cities skylines that made heavy use of water features. It lagged like mad to play on and it took 3 hours at max speed for the water to calm down enough that I didn't have tidal waves washing away houses on the beach every few minutes.

[vapid gorge]

Basically it won't take ages because the volume of the pipes and machine buffers you have to fill is generally not that big compared to the per minute fluid out put.

even a big system will take less than 30 min generally. If it doesn't at that point something is wrong with the build or the math

[thorny root]

I don't think mine is a "big" system by y'alls standards but it surely isn't small by any means. 100 total refineries all connected to the same pipe networks.

I'm checking the pipes periodically. There's still a lot of air pockets.

In everything.

[vapid gorge]

yeah let it run and go do something else in the mean time

[thorny root]

@vapid gorge Fuel has now started to accumulate in the refineries making it. only fuel.

[vapid gorge]

good

[thorny root]

I'm currently watching the last rubber node in the line before it switches over to fuel production from HOR. this machine will be the one that tells me the most about the health of the line because it's closest to the thing using its production and farthest away from its resource requirement.

It has accumulated neither HOR nor crude, and has been steadily declining in efficiency over the last 20 minutes.

If this fails to accumulate HOR we have a serious problem.

So... Fluid buffers... Heh. I had a thought. All this sloshing we talk about. What if we're using them wrong? What if... you put them at the end of each line... where the pressure is usually the absolute lowest? And not IN LINE at the end, at the VERY end. So that when it enters the fluid buffer, the pressure can only go into the fluid buffer, and then back out the same opening?

This will effectively create pressure at both ends over time, resulting in reduced pressure in the middle instead of all the way at one end.

That's the theory, anyway...

It will create a wave in the pipe at first, yes. And there will be a peak and a trough alternating back and forth through it until the buffer fills a little.

BUT when the buffer level exceeds the pipe level... I am expecting some elastic magic.

[median heath]

That would fall under the "do nothing" half of "They either do nothing or cause problems. They never help."

Because a properly built system is going to work just fine whether the buffer is there or not.

[thorny root]

I'm tempted to try it. The logic is solid.

You cannot have continuous flow and no air bubbles when the inherent nature of these machines is to start and stop.

None of them take continous input. None. And when you have several of them activating in sequence, you're literally generating waves of pressure in the line.

[median heath]

Which is why you prefill.

[vapid gorge]

and loop

We have many many hours doing pipe work. Go for it, but it doesn't work that way

[thorny root]

Well... it should. Because that's how physics works.

[median heath]

You want the machines full so they are solely taking the small amount the consume from the pipe.
If you don't prefill, the machines are trying to suck everything out of the pipe to fill their internal buffer while the pipe is trying to keep up.

[vapid gorge]

How? pipes are also buffers. They contain fluid, it isn't going to flow faster if you ahve a bigger buffer

[thorny root]

I understand that. I am speaking of what happens when you have a pipe completely full of fluid with no wiggle room and you suddenly ask it to shift direction as fast as it can... and you repeat that randomly basically all up and down the line... There's nowhere for the pressure to go in between cycles. It just hits a wall.

[vapid gorge]

doesn't end up working like that with the loop

between the internal buffers of all the machines it stabalises. And the loop and pre flooding helps it

[thorny root]

So you are telling me that eventually all of my machines should hope to exist in a state of constant flow living only on the breadth of the window of their internal buffers, but perpetually...

[vapid gorge]

absolutely

[thorny root]

Yeah that was the dream but there seem to be problems with how I'm trying to get there still.

It's been 2 hours. HOR still isn't full up.

[vapid gorge]

lay out, head lift, a lot of different things can happen to wreck it.

Are you using u7?

[thorny root]

Yeah, u7

[vapid gorge]

share some overhead shots of the whole system? might be something I notice

[prisma kraken]

just chiming in for a quick second, two pieces of advice for you... one keep pipe manifolds small; I like to keep the number of generators off of one feed to be somewhere btw 10-20. Two: let the pipes fill completely (until the flowrate hits zero) before you connect the power cables to the generators

also, just give them a few hrs to stabilize, it does take longer than you would expect and when you start changing pipe topology, you actually do cause them to take longer to fill

[thorny root]

Plastic.

Ignore the coal. It's not connected in any way to this.

[prisma kraken]

way more organized than my first blue crater oil build, lol

[thorny root]

The oil manifold. Bridges the inputs of 6 different oil nodes outputting a total of 2550 oil / minute.

In this screenshot, plastic is on the right, and rubber is extending into the distance at the top.

[vapid gorge]

are the plastic and fuel systems connected?

yeah it looks like you have a TON of manifolds merged together.

That alsot makes it harder to diagnose the issue since it could be in ANY of the manifolds.

[thorny root]

This is fuel production. At the far end rubber. The nearest pipe going left to right is the HOR loop, and fuel pipes down just next to that, and shoots off to the fuel generators.

[vapid gorge]

yeah look I'd seperate out each individual manifold as your first job. makes life easier

[thorny root]

And this is the current status, after making some changes recently. Honestly I've seen it more stable than this before making optimizations.

I think all I need to do is just wait now.

[vapid gorge]

There's also the question - how much do you care about making it run at 100% if it's power?

you could just take this as a learning experience and do better on the next system that actually matters for production

[thorny root]

I care about all of it. If any of it is not running at 100%, I need to figure out what I'm doing wrong and do it better. If there's some quirks I don't understand, I need to get a grip on them.

This factory was meant to be the one I get right.

I'm tired of rebuilding shit.

I'll post a status in a couple hours. Gonna go watch a movie. Thanks for the pointers guys.

[wind spade]

then don't rebuild 😄 build new and keep old 😛

[thorny root]

bruh if I do that I'll eventually run out of spots to build that have the nodes I need.

There's only 2 oil spots that I consider to be in walking distance of my current setup.

[vapid gorge]

Sure but a small dip in power output isn't going to cause an issue with making items right? and it could take hours to diagnose/rebuild this thing.

[thorny root]

I'm still a noob.

[vapid gorge]

your computer will catch fire before you use all the nodes and the game forces you to spread out factories, don't stress

[wind spade]

well nothing says you have to build close to existing factories

the whole map is out there waiting for you

[thorny root]

I know... but... I want it to be tidy and well planned. I don't want let's play spaghetti.

[vapid gorge]

and thats a great goal! but if you really like this sort of game and perfecting stuff? you're going to realise you could have built every factory you make better and different each time. Still happens to me. Learn from each project, don't burn out.

[thorny root]

That's exactly the reason I play this kind of game and exactly the way I play it.

It's a puzzle with a million solutions, and some of them are more valid than others.

[vapid gorge]

but the danger to burn out is real, and you don't know the rest of the game. imo it'd be better to accept the mistake than try to rip up this whole system you built. You'll almost certainly rebuild and do different things soon enough

[thorny root]

The quest for perfection is one of the only ones for me in satisfactory.

Anyone can make nuclear pasta out of spaghetti.

I'm gonna make it out of neatly stacked bricks of pure gold.

[vapid gorge]

sure, but I can basically guarantee you what you think is 'perfect' will change as you play 🙂

[thorny root]

And so what if I get burned out. The cloud saves, and this game isn't gonna make me rage uninstall.

I know it is. This refinery is junk as soon as I unlock t7 and a few more recipes.

I already know I'm gonna rip this up eventually.

[vapid gorge]

Time is a limiting factory in life. spending a thousand hours is a real thing . But gl in any case 🙂

[thorny root]

But if I don't understand why it's broken now, the next one will have the same problems. Don't worry. I'll figure ito ut.

All I do is play video games, man. A thousand hours on a game is nothing.

I just don't have that on this one.

[vapid gorge]

Well then my first suggestion - rip up all the pipes. Make it all go from point a to point b , no weird merges or splits

[thorny root]

I will require 1 merge: 2 oil nodes that can only output 300 each.

Acceptable?

If that's not acceptable I'll have to re-think quite a lot.

[vapid gorge]

yeah but not from machine to machine. If you have a set of refineries that need 546 HOR pm? send exactly that from a group of machines that only does that

loop inputs, flood.

[thorny root]

But do not loop outputs?

[vapid gorge]

these are the keep it simple guidlines. If your system doesn't work then? there's a build or math error

[vapid gorge]

doesn't do anything

the issue is machiens sucking up fluid and creating gaps, you don't get that on outputs

[thorny root]

So this falls under that fluid buffer rule... Does nothing or causes problems.

[vapid gorge]

well, its probably does absolutely nothing unless you really mess it up.

so yeah, just an extra fail point

oh, and avoid Floor Holes, they can sometimes be buggy. If you have to just clip the pipe through them

[thorny root]

Okay. Let's talk input manifold. Picture a line of refineries. An input pipe connects all with +'s. I can put that pipe ABOVE the inputs of the machines, IN LINE with it, or BELOW it... and all 3 will have different effects on the flow.

[vapid gorge]

and avoid Bottom Feeding pipes to machines unless you are really confident.

[thorny root]

looks like you were already on your way to answering my question...

[vapid gorge]

safest build?

you can also build the loop along side it. And theoretically if you flood and build properly you could run the loop pipe under the feed pipe

but I prefer having the top pipe to help gravity do it's job

[thorny root]

If I put manifold ABOVE the inputs of each machine, I expect they will power on in sequence. If I put the manifold IN LINE, I risk a lot of sloshing. If I put the mainfold BELOW the inputs, it will fill the pipes all at the same time and the machines will all try to power on at more or less the same time, assuming the pipe can stay full.

Those are assumptions, please correct any misassumptions.

[vapid gorge]

Now again - these aren't rock solid must do rules - you can do weird things with pipes but these are the rules I've found to get consistent set ups working

[vapid gorge]

I wouldn't assume any of that since you'll also be pre flooding

and you can get a stable system w/o pre flooding - but ... It's just easier and simpler to flood it

[thorny root]

I think the manifold above the inputs is the way to go.

[vapid gorge]

it's probalby safest

[thorny root]

Let gravity help.

It will also have the effect of letting the machines turn on in sequence, starting the cycles more or less on a cadence.

If I do all of this from a dead stop... after a rebuild... XD

[vapid gorge]

Flood them so they all go on 😛
Also if you really really want to feed from below I've found this set up works

[thorny root]

I don't think I want to feed from below... The idea of all the machines potentially stopping and starting at more or less the same time due to a drop in fluid pressure... seems really problematic.

[vapid gorge]

This is an example of 'these rules are set in stone', if you're careful and know what you're doing you can manage to make things work differently

[vapid gorge]

I only feed from below 😄

[thorny root]

Well, your machine is growing skyward.

That is just how you would do that...

Mine is along a plane. 😛

[vapid gorge]

carefully. And this building follows those rules and in fact the manifolds are each on their own plane

[thorny root]

Yeah but those are small manifolds. Very short. Very little room for sloshing. Very few machines to upset things.

[vapid gorge]

Which is something else to avoid - if you have a fluid manifold? keep it flat. If fluid needs to go to another floor? make a seperate manifold

[thorny root]

My manifold is 100 machines long and I think that's the biggest problem.

[wind spade]

and that's ideal for fluids 🙂

[vapid gorge]

the inner ring - but not the outer ring. And they're all overclocked to near 250%

so really there's 2x plus the consumption

[thorny root]

Obviously you're consuming everything otherwise you're doing it wrong. But you're consuming it all very close together.

[vapid gorge]

these are also clocked to 200%+

[thorny root]

Not 800 meters apart lmao

[vapid gorge]

that shouldn't make a difference tbh

if it does? build/math error

[thorny root]

It shouldn't but it really seems like it's making a difference.

And that may just be because I haven't waited long enough for it to finish adjusting to the last changes I made.

Who knows man. Like I said... I'm gonna give it a couple hours and see what it's doing then. It's movie time.

[vapid gorge]

or done small things which make it fluctuate? 🙂 it's all a learning process

but yeah if you really want to get that set up working? rip of the pipe work and redesign the flow structure

[prisma kraken]

yeah, longer pipes take longer to fill

how many batteries does a drone take to fly from one side of the map to the other?

its around 12, right?

[thorny cedar]

yea smth along those lines ~12

but let me take a look

[thorny cedar]

13 for 4.5km is one of mine

only takes 2.38 batteries per minute

[shut coyote]

this is an absolute mess, but for a temporary solution to replenish supplies for building (since I tore EVERYTHING down after getting coal power, since my pre-coal factory was 💩 )

input of 455/min ingots

[wind spade]

that's why you build new factory before tearing down old ones 😉

[shut coyote]

yeahhhhhhhhhh but I wanted proper space for it

and my starter was kinda in the way

[wind spade]

I mean the map is so big, you won't ever run out of space

[elfin thorn]

that's neat af

[shut coyote]

I know, "in the way" and "the desert" don't really go together

[shut coyote]

it's a basic manifold setup

very useful

takes its sweet time to prime though

[wind spade]

you can prefill or just work on rest of the factory while it's filling 🙂

[elfin thorn]

I bet.

[shut coyote]

420 plates/min

• 140 screws/min

but yeah like I said, just a temp solution

I ran out of plates from building too many foundations.

[elfin thorn]

420? 😏

[shut coyote]

because of course i did.

even with an industrial container full

[shut coyote]

purely coincidence, unfortunately

honestly though now that I think of it, maybe I should just use smelters for my iron ingots

was considering pure iron

[elfin thorn]

The best kind imo. wakenbake.jpg

[shut coyote]

but I forgot to account for the sheer power draw that that many refineries would take

since I'm still only on coal power, 5.4Gw

[elfin thorn]

sorry, I'm in a reference mood this morning. Now you got me thinking of Masters of the Universe.

[wind spade]

420 plates seem a bit excessive

and screws even more given how little they are needed

[shut coyote]

so just 15 refiners (processing ~600ore/min) takes up 450mw

[elfin thorn]

divert the overflow into the sink

[shut coyote]

yeah but I wanted it done quick lol

plus just to give the refiners a bit of a test run to see if they were actually hooked up

[elfin thorn]

reinforced plate requires screws

[wind spade]

reinforced plate factory will make it's own screws

[shut coyote]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747438543424454727/905724692185354250/iron_processing.gif

honestly think I may go back to doing something like this

^ from my last savegame

[elfin thorn]

so beautiful

[frosty owl]

You normally don't want to make screws far from where they're consumed (in other words: make them where they're needed)

[elfin thorn]

fair

[wind spade]

I'd say that's valid not just for screws but for majority of items

[shut coyote]

hahahaha suuuure. tell that to me on my last save with so many thousands of screws/min from my iron megafactory

it was painful. but glorious.

[wind spade]

and when you "produce X", I consider that as "producing to storage", hence "don't need to produce screws"

[frosty owl]

Low-throughout items can share one belt, so that's not as much of an issue

[wind spade]

personally I wouldn't recommend sushi to first-timers/new players, but it's obviously something you can do

[shut coyote]

for this iron factory, I'm planning on using all (or at least most) of the desert's iron nodes

[wind spade]

(obviously you still need screws as part of other production items, but those should be part of those production lines)

[shut coyote]

process it all into ingots, then ship them to where they need to go

[frosty owl]

Unless one is sending said item to storage, literally any item can be made in any quantity by machines put right behind the ones needing said item ^^

[wind spade]

heavily recommended to switch your planning from "how do I use these ingots" to "how do I make X"

aka plan from end product, build one product at a time and don't centralise

[shut coyote]

true but I like having things in bulk segments

[shut coyote]

yeah but centralized stuff looks cool

[frosty owl]

That comes with it's own issues :P

[wind spade]

factory per item looks also cool

[shut coyote]

I only really centralize for ingots

just helps with being able to ignore the ore

[wind spade]

until you start doing things like alloys

[shut coyote]

lets me budget for production of higher teir items, knowing just how much I can make

[wind spade]

imo even more cool as it's not just rows of the same machines, but different machines

[wind spade]

well, you've been warned, planning from ores is hard and leads to many issues further down the line 🙂

[shut coyote]

I've always done satellite style factories before, even since the very beginning

[shut coyote]

oh I'm well aware

that's what spreadsheets are for

[shut coyote]

(played this game since day1 release on epic, for reference)

[wind spade]

well, spreadsheets or online tools or nothing, it's still "better" to plan from end product

[shut coyote]

true

but again, knowing just how much I can use helps me personally

though I definitely wouldn't recommend it to anyone else

[frosty owl]

Greeny would love my current playthroughs ||if it didn't have sushi||
But yeah, the same production can be made in many ways. One COULD smelt everything in one place and send stuff to all factories needing ingots from there, OR smelt the same amount in MANY places to feed smaller and more complex setups like this #screenshots message
The general rule is: the smaller the setup, the harder to F it up. Use small bricks to make huge walls, kinda thing...

[shut coyote]

(because if I don't know my max input, there's the very real possibility of my planning being WAY too big for what's doable for the area, without having to go super far away to grab more)

done that far too many times, yet I never learn

[wind spade]

well I recommend planning the other way

• figure out how much you want
• figure out how much raw stuff you need for that
• find a nice place to build that with the raw stuff available 🙂

[shut coyote]

(hence why I use the desert. just a good starting area with a fuckload of nodes)

plus it really does look nice after that update

[wind spade]

I see this like every day, a person comes with an issue and it turns out their issue is "commited to use nodes around instead of planning properly"

[shut coyote]

whenever that was

[elfin thorn]

what's wrong with sushi?

[shut coyote]

it's a pain to un-sushi-ify it

[elfin thorn]

I'm confused.

[shut coyote]

if it's what I'm thinking

[frosty owl]

Single-input sushi is particularly delicate to use reliably

[shut coyote]

(sushi lines are the ones with just anything and everything thrown onto one line, not seperated by item right?)

[elfin thorn]

ah

[frosty owl]

"Sushi" or "mixed belt" is any belt carrying more than one kind of item, yes

[wind spade]

I don't hate sushi
I just don't recommend that to new players since it's easy to f up if you don't know what you're doing

[shut coyote]

I've basically never interacted with the wider community around this game so I don't know all the terminology

[wind spade]

mixed belt is belt carrying more than one item type
sushi is feeding factories with mixed belts 🙂

[shut coyote]

that's a lot of smart splitters.

[frosty owl]

Technically, Single Input Sushi doesn't even need smart splitters

[wind spade]

doesn't have to be any

[shut coyote]

wait so by single input sushi you mean (correct me if I'm wrong)
having all the reqs on one belt, so say having plates and screws on one belt

feeding into one input of an assembler, making reinforced plates

honestly didn't know machines could accept mixed inputs
never even thought of that

[frosty owl]

I think it's pretty clear from the #screenshots message I shared earlier, but yes ^^

[shut coyote]

(wasn't active here yesterday lol)

just decided to stop being what's even less active than a lurker, like an hour ago

[frosty owl]

No, I mean... I shared it in the convo we were having earlier... 😅

[shut coyote]

ah

yeah that makes sense.

[frosty owl]

Welcome to the light

[shut coyote]

almost guaranteed the darkness will beckon once more

[frosty owl]

The moment I thought of that was the moment my pioneering journey in logistics begun
Had to find a way to split said sushi belts to many machines to make it more satisfying and practical, that took a while... (testing to make sure things work exactly as you think take time)

[shut coyote]

well, time to start planning (arbitrary number) 10x/min Hmod frames

sounds like a decent number tho

maybe a little high. ahwell I'll find out eventually if that's the case

roast my coal setup

(100% efficient, 5.4gw constant power, no overclocking except for miners, I forget if I OCd those)

shit now that I have mk2 miners and mk4 belts I want to redo it but bigger.

no. bad.

I am NOT doing that to myself

but I really wanna

pipeogeddon

[high latch]

hi. how do I balance an input of 750 into 150 and 600?

[wind spade]

single splitter

[high latch]

literally how

[wind spade]

it splits 50-50, but one side gets more than it needs, so it fills up and rest will overflow to the other side, self-balancing

[high latch]

thats not what I asked tho

[wind spade]

it's a way to do it 🤷‍♂️

[snow dove]

easier to just group the machines up into 150, and 600

[wind spade]

that's also a way to do it 🙂

[high latch]

theyre already grouped up that way. I just need to split the input for the machines so that it doesnt take ages to fill up

[snow dove]

how are the inputs grouped rn

[wind spade]

Iroh means the previous machines

[snow dove]

cause 750 doesn’t fit on one belt

[wind spade]

that make the 750

[high latch]

im just merging everything and only producing 750

[snow dove]

or is it ore

[high latch]

its stators

[wind spade]

merge 600 and 150 separately

[high latch]

whatever. I already figured it out anyways

its a 120 belt and half of a 60 belt

[wind spade]

so overflowing single splitter was too much but overflowing using two belts is fine? 😄

[snow dove]

might be splitting off that

[high latch]

yes because the amount im overflowing is WAYYYY less

[snow dove]

bit weird the amount matters, but to each their own

[wind spade]

how does that matter like at all

[snow dove]

if it works for them, there’s no problem

[wind spade]

all of this could be replaced with single splitter and work the same

but w/e

[high latch]

it wouldnt work the same tho. itd have to fill up the belts and machines first which because this place is HUGE itd take actually forever

[wind spade]

that's why I said to not merge 600 and 150

[high latch]

but my inputs are in amounts like 66

[wind spade]

what makes 66? 🤔

[high latch]

9*8 is 1 row which makes 72

[wind spade]

so one machine makes 8?

[high latch]

it comes CLOSE to 150 but trying to divy up a row seems unnecessairily difficult when this works all the same

yep

[wind spade]

75 machines = 600 🙂

[high latch]

can you divide 75 by 9? didnt think so

[wind spade]

why 9?

[high latch]

because my blocks are 12 tiles and that fits 9 assemblers

[wind spade]

each tile will have 9 assemblers, one of them clocked at 33.3333%

tho this seems like an issue of "I built random blocks before considering logistics"

[high latch]

now you're making more machines AND messing with clockspeeds JUST to avoid saying a load balancer might have value

buddy...

[wind spade]

it doesn't have a value

[high latch]

then why are you saying the size of a row matters?

[wind spade]

I don't consider "I built everything without considering logistics and now I want to retrofit a balancer" as reason to use balancers

[high latch]

if all my output fits onto 1 belt wtf does it matter where I place the machines

I dont have to fucking explain myself to you why I like 12x12 blocks

I just do. thats how the outputs worked out and this is where Im going with it. fucking deal brother

[wind spade]

no need to be rude to the person that is trying to help you

[high latch]

you never even tried answering my question tho. literally just questioned its purpose and said Im wrong for choosing this direction

[wind spade]

I answered all your questions

you just didn't like my answer

[high latch]

you never told me how to split 750 into 150 and 600

[wind spade]

I did

one splitter

[high latch]

thats not what I asked

balancing was part of the question

[wind spade]

it's a way to do it 🤷‍♂️

the fact that the game is sandbox and usually asking 10 people will give you 10 different answers doesn't mean that 9 of them are wrong

[high latch]

its not the way I described wanting an answer for tho

[wind spade]

and the word balancing was mentioned for the first time now

[high latch]

how do I BALANCE???

[wind spade]

technically manifolds also balance 🤷‍♂️

but w/e

you'd be surprised how many people don't know about that mechanic

[high latch]

they dont. thats like saying a seesaw balances when theres a boulder on one end

[wind spade]

they do
once they stabilise, all machines get exactly what they need

many times people come here and ask for load balancing because they don't know that manifolds exist. So I just assumed you're one of them 🤷‍♂️

[high latch]

you're literally just avoiding the point. you failed to read my question and are now defending yourself

[wind spade]

tbh even if you asked about load balancers, my first answer would be "why not manifold"

[high latch]

that WAS your first answer

I already told you

[wind spade]

being angry at a person for suggesting alternative (and imo better) approach is the way to go 👍

[high latch]

bite me

[frosty owl]

Being emphatic towards how our words make others feel and changing them to communicate effectively and avoid unproductive confrontations can be a way to go too ^^

[wind spade]

I mean I wasn't the one that started dropping f bombs

[shut coyote]

Also only iron Alloy I'm aware of is steel

[wind spade]

alternate recipes

[shut coyote]

Should clarify - only iron ore alloy I'm interested in is steel

Meaning I can just smelt all the iron

Since solid steel ingots are a thing

[elfin thorn]

steel is iron ore and coal.

[wind spade]

if you're only using them then sure

[shut coyote]

Only without alt recipe

[thorny cedar]

would do it like that but the splitter is a smart split (just had no materials with me) right and center is any left is overflow right and center adds up to 600 left is the rest effectivly 150 🙂

[elfin thorn]

alt recipe is wasteful?

[shut coyote]

There the solid steel ingots alt recipe that allows crafting steel with iron ingots

[shut coyote]

No

[wind spade]

alt recipes are different recipes that are tradeoffs

[shut coyote]

Alt is just alternate. Not necessarily better or worse

[elfin thorn]

I feel like using the energy to smelt the iron ore into iron before making it into steel is energy wasteful. I guess if you already have the excess iron, though.

[shut coyote]

Just different, and thus more or less useful depending on how you use them

[shut coyote]

You also have to consider the production ratios

[wind spade]

it makes more ingots per ore, but yeah uses more power

[high latch]

oooh compact! I like this

[shut coyote]

Materially, solid steel is objectively better than standard steel

But it costs more power to use

[thorny cedar]

np

[shut coyote]

Actually nope nevermind just checked the wiki and I literally see zero downside to solid steel

Less mj/item, faster rate, better material efficiency

[thorny cedar]

maybe you want a meter of belt in between bcs im not sure if the merge happens directly after the splt smth slips forcefully into the left output bcs it backs up for a second 🙂

[wind spade]

wiki doesn't really show the whole picture

[high latch]

✍️

[shut coyote]

What other metrics would there be that matter besides the ones listed above

[wind spade]

resources available, complexity, convenience, personal preference

[shut coyote]

Only thing I can think of is space, but even then that isn't a big deal

Resources available is basically the same as material efficiency (at least for this recipe)

[wind spade]

it's not, if you have e.g. coke around, you may want to do coke steel

[shut coyote]

True enough I auppose

But, in terms of comparing standard steel to solid steel, which is what I'm doing here

Coke steel doesn't come into the picture, and thus of the two I'm talking about, solid steel appears to be objectively superior

[thorny cedar]

scratch the last part should not matter in this case tbh :3

[wind spade]

solid steel is slightly more power usage

also way more buildings

[shut coyote]

I'm assuming from the iron smelting before it gets to the foundry

[shut coyote]

I wouldn't say way more

[wind spade]

it's almost double

[shut coyote]

Just a bit more