math-and-meta

[winter panther]

No.

[sleek garden]

yeah

[frosty owl]

A) A "high capacity" power grid was temporarily connected to a weaker one
B) Some generators went online for a while for some reason

[winter panther]

Well, the planner online shows the refinery going at a rate of 2.2x machines to produce that much

[frosty owl]

Numbers were chosen randomly, it's the proportions that matter (trying to clock at 1/3, 2/3, 4/3...)

[winter panther]

Well regardless, it still doesn't make sense how they're not only producing that amount but also them not knowing which specific number either

[frosty owl]

@sleek garden do you need help clarifying this, or have any lingering doubts?

[abstract moss]

ohh thank you!

[sleek garden]

yes please

[frosty owl]

... It's an "or" kind of question, "yes" doesn't quite cut it 😅
What's confusing you?

[sleek garden]

I mean I realized that machines turn off even if there's already too much output in it

so u right, both version would stop at some point

but then what makes the slightly underclocked better than the slightly overclocked?

[frosty owl]

The difference is what machines stop and why.
If the consumers starve, those machines will turn on/off.
If the producer makes too much, the producer may back up after a while.
But in the second case, you can still deal with the excess fluid to balance the system (eg: package + sink overflow fluid)

[frosty owl]

Preference :)

[sleek garden]

do i need to use a valve to deal with the overflow?

I never used them

[quick garnet]

(Also power consumption but that is almost negligible)

[sleek garden]

yeah I make about 10 times more power than I need

anyway I was wrong

numbers are as such:

or

I'd say 40.05 is much close and better given the input is 40 flat

no?

[frosty owl]

"Better" is subjective ^^

[sleek garden]

dude I';m very new to this

please don't be cryptic

[frosty owl]

No, gravity can do the trick. You can look up "overflow pipe" on Google or SF wiki got a full explanation

[sleek garden]

fuel already goes in 3 floors

aw man I made such a mess

should I pump it back up at some point to ensure equal movement?

[frosty owl]

What is the "best" solution to a problem depends on the preferences of the one having the problem.
The solutions can be many and differ only in parts that can't be objectively analized
Eg: what's the best way to place an assembler next to a constructor? "Objectively"...

[sleek garden]

is any of you lads available for a quick chat?

voice chat i mean

[frosty owl]

You might wanna make a #looking-for-group-old post about that

[sleek garden]

I only really have questions

[frosty owl]

But I think I'll be aviable in... 30 min. If that's OK with you, feel free to send a message request in the meanwhile

[sleek garden]

thx

I forgot my discord password for the bot

I'll just hope that we can do without formal request

[frosty owl]

I don't know about that...
I'd appreciate it if you could take the time to figure it out as that sounds somewhat shady

[sleek garden]

entering a voice chat?

ah fine

give me a moment

satisfactory sure is a bloody job ngl

@frosty owl done, though I'm positive you misunderstood my intentions

[frosty owl]

I didn't make assumptions on your intentions, I just distrust Discord thus prefer to go through all "security-checks" so to speak

[frosty owl]

Please don't try to open messages randomly. What is the issue?

[dim spire]

Discord accounts seem to get "hacked" pretty often.

[abstract moss]

so i reworked it. worked for about 10 mins before a cut out again.

I just have generators running and like 2 miners producing 2020MW's
still as soon as I link it up to my factory it cuts out.

It justed to 40,000MW this time
My max cons is 15kMW still

Idk if its a mod or if I did the wiring wrong somehow? @frosty owl

[proper belfry]

Do you use mods?

[abstract moss]

I do have about 20 installed/running yeah

But nothing that i use uses that much MW that im aware off most structures are vanilla apart from some transport things ie drones

[proper belfry]

remove your mods and see if the problem persists

[coral flame]

My current coal factory is here but running out of room when I was upgrading it suggestions on closest better spot to move them too but don’t want to move factory only power

[vapid gorge]

there seems to be plenty of space? Also you can always build up

[junior slate]

yeah verticality is a lifesaver

[wind spade]

SFTools now have Import/Export functionality, see https://www.reddit.com/r/SatisfactoryGame/comments/15pl6o1/satisfactorytools_importexport/ 🙂

[waxen flame]

does anyone know whats wrong with these fuel gens? my max power capacity keeps jumping and im pretty sure its because of them

theres also this side

oh wait no nvm i think i know the problem

[median heath]

Why is there a buffer?

[waxen flame]

i think its cause i have the plastic going into a manufacturer and thats backing up occasionally causing me to not have the refineries be at full efficiency

[waxen flame]

cause i was storing the heavy oil residue in there and then decided to use that to make fuel gens

[median heath]

But... why?

[waxen flame]

cause i had a ton left over and didnt wanna waste it so i just connected it to the other refineries

[median heath]

So buffer exists to store HOR.
Storing HOR is happening because you have excess.
Next "why" is why did you have excess HOR?

[waxen flame]

because i stored it before i made fuel gens

also i might just scrap the fuel gens all together because of how inconsistent they are being and instead use it to make packaged fuel automated

[vapid gorge]

storing essentially raw goods is pointless

[prisma kraken]

stored product is wasted product

[small kayak]

thanks for the continued support of (y)our tools!

[frank crystal]

Just to verify before I build it wrong, did I do the math for the rubber/plastic recycling loop right?

[small kayak]

1800 Rubber

https://u6.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=tNbMcWoEnrY2YW4pxq34

1800 plastic

https://u6.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=a0x0OM4u3R0teWZYvR3c

@frank crystal seems like you forgot to turn the polymer resin into rubber

[frank crystal]

I was following this chart for the logic:
The resin into rubber bit is already taken care of since it is extracted from the whole process without hassle. This was just the loop after you get the diluted fuel out of the blenders.

I just wasnt sure because here, the plastic and rubber need different amounts of fuel, but my (admittedly modded) refineries say they need the same for both.
Its just multiplied speed and energy consumption though

[small kayak]

you need more refs for plastic and thus more fuel for them as there is some rubber coming from the resin

[frank crystal]

Is the chart on the wiki jut wrong then? O.o
Because as far as I can tell, the rubber from the resin is sent immediately to the output there and the loop only uses rubber from the recycling.

[oblique hollow]

its easy to mess that up and bottleneck yourself somehow

[frank crystal]

Especially when you try to feed 8x150 input on a single belt... Good thing I caught it early

[obtuse magnet]

How much limit of lizard doggo?

[placid lichen]

is it even possible to seperate the ore this way

[median heath]

Use 1 splitter.

@placid lichen

[placid lichen]

a

how is
okay im not gonna question the math behind this

[median heath]

472.5 / 2 = 236.25

What happens when you send 236.25 to something that can take only 135?

[placid lichen]

oh true

alr thanks bro

[wind spade]

apart from the overflow method mentioned, it's not even required to merge them first 🙂 you can have two or more miners clocked appropriately

[frank crystal]

Hmm.... Im starting to think that 125GW of fuel power may be somewhat overkill....

[junior slate]

maybe

[elfin nebula]

we do more and it isnt. depends on your plans

[true junco]

Seams reasonable to me. I dont have that much. But ill get close to it as i ramp up for nuclear. But im going to be building nuclear in small increments. Probably after i push my fuel power from 20GW, up to about 60GW.

[frank crystal]

Would someone think of the environment?!
Everyone just casually burning a small country's worth of power generation with fossil fuels

[junior slate]

coal is unlimited
free and efficient pollution

fun for the whole family

[elfin nebula]

main reason why you go to another planet doing that

[dusky zenith]

In my current save I have every building material automated (up to tier 8, literally everything including turbo motors, fused modular frame, cooling system, etc) and I'm still on my first coal plant using the 4 normal coal nodes near grassy fields (plus a small amount of power from excess coke from a basic oil plant, not using any alternates). Total production and usage are both around 8000MW. I'm about to build a 85000MW diluted fuel just so I can set up my 65000MW factory to make max nuke

The only reason I automated everything before doing diluted fuel is I didnt want to deal with the hell that is diluted packaged fuel, and I didn't want to hand craft the RCUs to build blenders, so I just went ahead and automated everything first. My building materials factory takes about 3000MW and makes every building material in the game. It was a fun project

[oblique hollow]

diluted packaged is only hell if you decide to make a big collective loop

that one sucks and is a worse strategy

[cinder silo]

Don't remind me, my old power station had a monster package loop.

[oblique hollow]

vs just making a single loop per refinery

[cinder silo]

🤣

[oblique hollow]

average DPF setup before BPs Lmao

[cinder silo]

It was a huge pain to setup, I'm thankful the blender recipe exists.

[oblique hollow]

i think ive only, at worst, made collective packaging, but never unpackaging

unpackaging was always directly out of the refinery

[frank crystal]

Oh joy.... you know that feeling when you finish a production line, something seems wrong, and you are not sure if you mathed up, or "fixing" it would be the mistake?
Yeah, so I just got that....
Why did I decide to send 900 input when only 600 is needed.... Was I dumb, or am I dumb now....

[cinder silo]

I've done something similar, six groups of four refineries fed by six mk5 belts, they were all doing sloppy alumina ..... cue some idle refineries and production not working right.

[dim spire]

I used xhibit's method for my dpf. Only real loop is the empty cans go back to be filled with water.

[wind spade]

dpf is super easy, 1:1:1 refinery with two packagers, 10 canisters into that loop, repeat as many times as needed

[waxen flame]

what would be the best way to split this, from the side or middle

same with this

[wind spade]

split what?

[waxen flame]

the oil into the refineries and then the fuel into the fuel gens but i figured it out

[wind spade]

manifold

[vast bramble]

bet this dark sorcery won't survive reality check

[oblique hollow]

Nah thats actually fine on first glance

[vast bramble]

those fractions on output though, not sure if that will be nearly that precise

[oblique hollow]

one decimal? yeah it will, you just wont see it

[vast bramble]

hopefully

[half geyser]

i think programmable splitters can do something like that

[wind spade]

no, programmable and smart splitters are essentially the same

[half geyser]

aight

well you can set up a splitter ratio

it would be quite complex and annoying but you could

[wind spade]

just manifold 😄

[vapid gorge]

for most people's bases yes

[prisma kraken]

all programmable splitters do is allow you to set more than one item for each output; they're like a condensed version of an array of smart splitters, save space but don't do ratio splitting

[half geyser]

Aight

Good to know, last time I used them was forever ago

[sinful hemlock]

anyone wanna play

[median heath]

#looking-for-group-old

[frail quartz]

did they chnage the resources needed for things in a patch? seams like i need more machines than i did last build

[median heath]

Only changes they have made would lead to you needing LESS machines.

[deft lichen]

there hasn't been a patch for 49 days, or 245 on stable

[frail quartz]

i tried this online calculator and i have one of everything being made per min and its now going to need 2.085.777 or steel it was 2k laste time now its looking like it needs 2m

[deft lichen]

which calculator

[median heath]

Imagine not using Tools...

[frail quartz]

satasfactory-calculator com

[deft lichen]

https://u6.satisfactorytools.com/production

[elfin nebula]

@wind spade changelog for u8?
so, is it worth to redo all my tabs o is there no difference anyway?

[wind spade]

you can use the export function to quickly transfer your tabs 😛

[elfin nebula]

huh

[wind spade]

it's a new thing 😄

[elfin nebula]

ah, but thats for both i see

any other difference?

[wind spade]

oh if you mean Tools features, not really. Just U8 has... well... U8 dataset 😄

[elfin nebula]

but yeah, local backups felt needed. constant fear of loosing it xD

[wind spade]

(but transferring the tabs is a quick action if you just want to go to "correct" version 🙂 )

[tall quarry]

Does the github satis tools Version have a Website too?
Or is it only for self hosting

[elfin nebula]

alo, how is the stuff saved anyway?

[wind spade]

https://www.reddit.com/r/SatisfactoryGame/comments/15pl6o1/satisfactorytools_importexport/

[wind spade]

which stuff? 😄

[wind spade]

wdym?

[elfin nebula]

everything

i mean my setups

so like the tabs etc

[tall quarry]

the github Version is newer than the Website

[wind spade]

it is not?

[elfin nebula]

i know many websites doing that stuff and fom time to time everythings gone

[wind spade]

local storage (it's something like cookies, just not sent to server and a bit harder to delete)

[elfin nebula]

okay, so even without local backup quite save

[wind spade]

it has a per-website limit and browser limit, so sometimes it may get cleared

but most browsers just disallow saving new things if the limit is reached

Tools won't reach the per-website limit and browser limit is usually pretty high, so you should be safe

deleting it usually requires clearing browser data/cache

[tall quarry]

Then the newest update has been made recent, right?

[wind spade]

but with the export feature you can save stuff forever

[elfin nebula]

now with file export it doesnt matter anyway

just wondered all the time how save it could be

[wind spade]

latest commit is from yesterday and that version is live

[tall quarry]

That explains

[elfin nebula]

but back to my question. any change in the dataset?
i think no

[wind spade]

there's definitely some changes, but tbh I haven't checked much

if you don't care about things like new things in codex or alien remains, then you should be fine on older version

[elfin nebula]

yeah so far everything with the old vesion was correct

and i dont see any diffeence so far

[wind spade]

also, what "older version" did you talk about? tools were always up to date with github's master and u6 branches respectively

[elfin nebula]

it looks different

more clean i would say

[wind spade]

what does? 😄

apart from the export/import, there was literally no change to the code

[elfin nebula]

the old version

the new one

[wind spade]

eh, the placement algorithm for these is black magic

[elfin nebula]

have both open atm
one is the tab in u6/7 and one is the same in u8

[wind spade]

I wouldn't be surprised if it could generate different placement for same setup lol

[elfin nebula]

the u8 one does it cleaner most time

[wind spade]

should be the same 🤷‍♂️ unless something weird happened lol

[elfin nebula]

actually they are all different xD
most time its basically mirrored top to bottom and then few changes

u6/7

u8

its kinda flipped all the time

[wind spade]

I haven't done any changes to that part of code 🤔 I guess I'll call it a feature and move on

[elfin nebula]

u6/7

u8

really flipped

u8 seems to try to put same types together, while the u6/7 doesnt care and throw orange between the brown boxes

[wind spade]

maybe the lib updated for some reason? 🤔 but then why it wouldn't update on U6

[elfin nebula]

lul, even in small examples, its flipped

[tall quarry]

The Version with update 5 and 6

[elfin nebula]

so simple, still flipped

[wind spade]

yeah, those were up to date with github code

[tall quarry]

I thought the github was New er, and you could calculate power and awesome points

[wind spade]

that's beta version, which is completely separate fork

[tall quarry]

Ah, okay

[elfin nebula]

i still want beta access

[tall quarry]

But that one has no Website, right?

[wind spade]

it's on beta url

but it's with U5 dataset, so careful with using it

[elfin nebula]

ah, thats quite easy

[wind spade]

(beta access is basically just me telling you the url and asking you to not use it too much publicly so that people won't accidentally start using it for calculation purposes)

[elfin nebula]

but yeah, u5 could be a problem for actual usage

couldnt you just throw the new set in there?

[wind spade]

(and can be done via Tools server, there's a role bot there to gain access)

[wind spade]

iirc the dataset format changed in beta and I'd have to modify parser to produce the dataset in proper format and I just don't want to do that given that beta features are partially broken and that all the features will eventually make their way into new tools

[elfin nebula]

needing help?

[wind spade]

I mean if you want to dig through that pile of worms, go ahead 😄

[elfin nebula]

most important feature that is missing: rectangular flowchart

[wind spade]

huh?

[elfin nebula]

getting stuff like that. though thats still not completely rectangular.
i mean that it forces all stuff on a grid and only allow lines perfectly vertical or horizontal

maybe also allow 45°

[wind spade]

a big problem with that approach is that stuff can hide behind other nodes

[elfin nebula]

check boxes for collission with each other

because it would make stuff larger, but stuff like that isnt readable as well

[wind spade]

see this bug from original tools:

Why would Wire go to a Constructor for Iron Rods? And why there is no label on the arrow?

solution
||https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/558794738879168515/577371626706829312/Peek_2019-05-13_04-47.gif||

[elfin nebula]

well, check the textfield place for collision as well

[wind spade]

the problem is I'm not doing the placement at all

[tall quarry]

And the arrow

[wind spade]

a library does

I'm in basically no control of where stuff is placed

[elfin nebula]

explain the libary it should do better

[wind spade]

because things like this are pain to do manually

[elfin nebula]

stuff like that still exists

[wind spade]

yeah, the issue is that the library also wants me to have arrows that have multiple segments

but the library for displaying the graph doesn't support that

[tall quarry]

Can you make an arrow without a tip?

[elfin nebula]

so just a line?

[tall quarry]

Then you could add a machine that does nothing except interrupting the arrow

[tall quarry]

Yes

[wind spade]

I don't really want to make changes to existing tools when I'm making it from scratch in new tools

[elfin nebula]

yeah, just was an idea

possible to do plutonium and uranium in one tab?

[wind spade]

in beta yes 😛

[elfin nebula]

thats an important feature. having to import the waste manually is oof

[wind spade]

problem is that tools don't do power production

(well, beta does, but it brings more issues)

[elfin nebula]

could you just ignore power and just an option to burn rods?

[wind spade]

I could not

[elfin nebula]

so skip power production, just make the power plant a machine that uses rods and outputs waste. so a rip off constructor

[wind spade]

see e.g. https://github.com/greeny/SatisfactoryTools/issues/100#issuecomment-1027687525

First, the data is processed automatically from game files, so any manual additions would either have to be hardcoded (which I'm not a big fan of) or re-added every time I run the script to process the data. Also, nuclear power plant doesn't have the parameters required to be able to calculate recipe production (e.g. "craftingSpeed"). It also doesn't use any power to run, which would break the building/overview displays. It would also display as a recipe in codex and recipe picker (which is technically incorrect). Not to mention that the formula for calculating overclock is different than the formula for production buildings.

All of that would have to be taken into account in code, which would result in multiple days of work. That's just not worth. Adding power properly is a much better option in this case, however as I said, it's not a big priority right now due to other things that I'm working on right now. It will come eventually though.

[elfin nebula]

hardcode the rods

[wind spade]

hardcoding is 🤢

[elfin nebula]

implement it as optional patch/hack
so hardcode but make it usable with a checkbox. so when it breaks, it not really breaks, just this option

[wind spade]

that's even worse xD

[elfin nebula]

well, some way is needed.
because many people, i as well, failed on the plutonium .-.

[wind spade]

new tools will handle it
old tools are not being updated
still the same story 🙂

[tall quarry]

Do you have an idea how long we have to wait for the New tools?

[wind spade]

a long time 😄

hopefuly before U9

[tall quarry]

okay

[dim spire]

Legit question...what is the functional difference between tools and calculator? Like, I get greeny hangs out here and made tools, but I've played around with both and don't see how calc is nearly as horrible as folks make it out to be.

[median heath]

Functionally Tools is superior.

if (UsingTools())
{
bSuperior = true;
}

[wind spade]

from what I know, scim:

• can't do loops
• can't do more recipes per item
• can't optimise production
• from my testing a long way back is way slower especially on large productions
• doesn't remember your productions and doesn't have option to share them (well you can copy a link I guess, so not exactly true)

but there's definitely things that scim can do that tools can't or people that prefer scim over tools 🤷‍♂️

but I guess I'm not the best person to answer this question, would be better if someone who used both could answer 🤷‍♂️

[dim spire]

"Can't do loops" is about the only thing I don't understand there.

[median heath]

Also shows all the splitter/mergers as individual nodes which confuses many people.

[wind spade]

e.g. recycled loop is impossible to do in scim

[dim spire]

Gotcha. Ok, those are all good points. I'd noticed that SCIM wouldn't allow for using multiple recipes for a thing and kinda wondered why. Like sure, I've got some Caterium here I'd like to use up, but I still have a crapload of copper you're telling me is going to be unused because I can't do "wire" and "fused wire" (or whatever its name is) at the same time.

[deft lichen]

from my experience, SCPP handles the machine-to-machine logistics strangely, with machines making the same product being all over the place, so it's not "cohesive"

[wind spade]

because scim doesn't do any optimisation
if you select an alt, it will force-use that alt. If you select multiple alts for same item, it'll use whatever is first in it's internal list

[dim spire]

Ok. I'll bite. I'll switch the bookmark after this factory. (It's a damned simple little temporary thing, no need for high-tech optimization).

[wind spade]

I mean you can use whatever you want 🤷‍♂️ 😄

again, a person that uses both (and plays the game) could probably answer better than me though

[elfin nebula]

just tried the same i do with tools with scim.
so thow in 60 assembly director, say all alts and see what i get:

perfect

it will be so much lager

also, wait

it really wants to use more than exists on the map

it does polymer resin as alt recipe

[wind spade]

yeah "all alts" on scim means "force-use" alts 🙂

[elfin nebula]

wait, that has none

oh, it really only makes beams to make unneeded screws

because steel screws are forced

would call it random

lets go on view mode realistic and wait an hour

doubt

[wind spade]

I think I had it crash on me once when I tried some advanced production line lol

[elfin nebula]

also holy shit, it uses more cpu than the game ever did

[wind spade]

yeah, though most likely only one core/thread?

[elfin nebula]

well, let me check

okay, two cases

or this

jumps between both

[wind spade]

hm, the first one would be "javascript code running" and the second one is probably "browser stuff running"

unless anthor has implemented web workers or something 🤔

but yeah, it's still super slow

[elfin nebula]

still running .-.

but yeah, iirc realistic draws every single belt/pipe and splitter

for 60 ads per seconds that are thousands

[wind spade]

imagine someone actually building that belt by belt

[elfin nebula]

interstingly, it doesnt increase ram usage at all. it stays rock solid

i brok that up. i dont think it will ever bring a solution

[wind spade]

hm, maybe it's possible it draws onto the canvas instantly? 🤔

[elfin nebula]

im sure there are way more people really doing that than we hope there were

[obsidian creek]

to all of you hypertube lauchers lovers remember to add your fastest belt in front of it for enhanced power to distance ratio

[deft lichen]

• slide jump

[obsidian creek]

fun fact
a MK.5 belt is as fast as a player sliding

[tender ether]

to get the most from a fuel generator, should i use packaged diluted fuel or just diluted fuel. idk how much 60 packaged/min turns into

[wind spade]

both DF and DPF have the same ratio of HOR + water to fuel

[obsidian creek]

crude oil recipe + residual fuel

even better innit ?

[wind spade]

that doesn't give you most fuel

[obsidian creek]

really

[wind spade]

really

[obsidian creek]

sad

[wind spade]

residual fuel is 6 HOR -> 4 fuel
diluted is 5 HOR -> 10 fuel

not even close

[elfin nebula]

getting most out of fuel generator is turbofuel

[wind spade]

getting most out of fuel generator is replacing it with nuclear 😛

[elfin nebula]

thats not how it works

[quick hatch]

i was thinking about making turbo fuel after already making diluted

[wind spade]

personally I'd recommend just skipping turbofuel for nuclear

[dense cave]

I skipped that way as well

[elfin nebula]

or do turbofuel nd skip nuclear

[quick hatch]

what's the best strategy to deal with the waste

[wind spade]

which waste btw? 😛

[quick hatch]

uranium

[dense cave]

Nuclear? you can make plutonium fuel rods and sink them I believe

[frosty owl]

Time

[wind spade]

three options

• store uranium waste
• process uranium waste to plutonium fuel rods and sink them
• process uranium waste to plutonium fuel rods, burn them for power and store plutonium waste

[dense cave]

or you can consume the fuel rods and just store them in a corner and never worry about it

[quick hatch]

so no sending trucks off the map

[wind spade]

no because you don't actually send them off the map

[thorny cedar]

see it from that way you producing plutonium fuel rods to power your truck fleet and make lots of power in the mean time 🙂

[wind spade]

they stay in the void, eating your fps

[frosty owl]

But if they stay on map, they can eat the rods

[quick hatch]

you dont get radiation of you use rods for fuel?

[elfin nebula]

yeah, you dont

[frosty owl]

Just a 7-foundations-wide area of radiation around each truck filled with rods, nothing to worry about~

[elfin nebula]

only stuff in inventory is radiating

[wind spade]

you do if there's more than one in the fuel slot

[elfin nebula]

consumed rod wont.
so as long as you only input one, its fine

[wind spade]

because the one is "consumed" and being used over time, but doesn't count as item anymore

[frosty owl]

Which there wouldn't be if trucks really did take only as much Fuel as needed for one (or even 2) round trip
At least, most of the time...

[thorny cedar]

once a radioactive sugar cube always a radioactive sugar cube

[frosty owl]

And good luck trying to figure out how much fuel the vehicles take per minute and trying to load-balance the rods accordingly

[thorny cedar]

you could use a truck to haul in ur uran its radioactive anyways but u need to get the first badge by hand or smth or just use diff fuel at the start but that would be to easy

[true junco]

I kind of like the idea of populating the map with leaky plutonium fueled trucks... 😆

[prisma kraken]

i've done it before, they get pretty hot, like almost insta-kill when their death-bloom comes in range if you don't have a hazmat suit

you have enough time to run and avoid it, but yeah, they're pretty radioactive with pfr's

its kind of funny though that when you do that, the most radioactive spot of your fuel plant is the truckstop 😄

[remote robin]

Is this the most compact way of splitting a lift between two floors 6m apart without any clipping?

[vapid gorge]

couldn't you have one spliter with 1 output going down, 1 going up and the other saying on the floor?

[remote robin]

The input is coming from above and then splitting to this floor and the floor below

It's just splitting this, but that seems like it should be easier than what I've come up with

[vapid gorge]

so why not drop it to a splitter that has 1 output on the floor and one lift going down?

[remote robin]

That's essentially what I'm doing. But the floor holes need to be in line with each other

[vapid gorge]

ah, if that's you're goal sure, though you could prob squish the lifts closer in with clever use of conveyor posts if you really wanted to

[remote robin]

Isn't that the closest they can get without clipping?

I've already squished them a bit

[vapid gorge]

depends what you mean by clipping. I'd argue that they are already clipped inside the splitter somewhat 😄

you could probably put a spliter under the first one and split that to the floor and the lower spliter

might be tidier?

although with that layout your lift on the left would be sticking out a bit more. Much of a muchness though unless you're really pressed for space

[remote robin]

That does work well 😄 Thanks 🙂

[vapid gorge]

looks good!

[fierce ruin]

which one ?

[median heath]

5️⃣

[true junco]

I cant imagine getting to nuclear without having long ago unlocked HOR already...

[wind spade]

see #math-and-meta message

[elfin nebula]

this is one of the cases where that text doesnt apply since heavy oil is better in every single existing case

so you literally always want to have that recipe as soon as it has to do with oil

nothing situational

[wind spade]

and that's your opinion 🤷‍♂️

[elfin nebula]

thats everyones opinion and its objectively better in all cases

[wind spade]

yes, alt HOR makes most of oil, but also is more complex, some people just don't want to be bothered with it

[elfin nebula]

less space, less power, less resources, more output

[elfin nebula]

*less complex

[wind spade]

how is "oil -> alt HOR -> recycled loop + residual rubber -> rubber" less complex than "oil -> rubber"?

[elfin nebula]

thats the highest case.
you can just do oil -> hor -> rubber, sink the polymer
what is easier than doing oil -> rubber, have to deal with the hor byproduct

[wind spade]

many people start with oil->plubber and turn byproduct into fuel for fuel gens

[elfin nebula]

so when you want it easy and simple you go for hor alt and when you want to max, you also go for it

[wind spade]

if that would be true then everyone would go for it

which definitely isn't true, so 🤷‍♂️

[elfin nebula]

i havent ever seen a single peson not always using that recipe

as long as they know the existence

[median heath]

How does one "just do" oil -> HOR -> Rubber
When there is no HOR -> Rubber recipe?

[wind spade]

I have 🤷

[tender ether]

sorry if this is an obvious answer but im new and dont know, is that a joke or is turbofuel a better option?

than packaged diluted

[median heath]

Define better?

[tender ether]

easier to produce more of it to run more generators

[median heath]

No.

[tender ether]

ah ok

[median heath]

Does it run more generators? Very yes.

Is it worth making for power? Generally no, but worth is subjetive to the individual.

Diluted is far, far more than enough to get you to nuclear.

[elfin nebula]

it uses the diluted fuel as input, so it needs more, but i would say its not really harder to build

its really simple

[tender ether]

im actually very close to nuclear so ill proly just get it, just gotta figure out aluminum

[oblique hollow]

? HOR cant be turned directly into Rubber tho

That step always involves recycling via fuel

[vast bramble]

how's that done? never seen that before

[oblique hollow]

snapping magic

[vast bramble]

possible in vanilla?

[main shuttle]

ok i have a tech question about how SF runs: every once in a while it'll freeze for a second similar to the autosave (it's autosaving just fine separate from this). cpu/gpu don't hit 100% during the freeze so i'm kinda weirded out by it

this is on U8 exp.

[wind spade]

have you checked if cores hit 100%?

many things are limited to single core

[vast bramble]

oh my.. that's a game changer

[median heath]

Ew

[main shuttle]

stealing that

[main shuttle]

ah that's a possibility. i know i'm kinda short on cores

[wind spade]

no, burn that with fire

[vast bramble]

apparently i've stumbled upon a dark forbidden heresy 🙂

[main shuttle]

🤣

i can see it being a great space saver

[vast bramble]

still don't get how to get from this to that above, but that's something i can work with

[river night]

space is largely not a limit in this game, just make your foundation bigger 😄

[vast bramble]

i prefer to leave little footprint in the world and make my things minimally visible so any way to make them smaller is welcome

[wind spade]

space is almost infinite

[brittle kayak]

#design-and-architecture message (and a short video a few comments lower)

[vast bramble]

crazy stuff

I normally avoid clipping, unless it looks plausible. like this is ok with me

[wind spade]

@ionic ridge and @elder barn read #math-and-meta message

[elder barn]

thanks sir

[cinder silo]

I've done those when hooking up underfloor feeds, even built modern railings around them on occasion as well as catwalk floors to make them look the part.

[torpid gust]

I am planning a power plant with 16 nuclear power plants. They need 3.2 uranium fuel rods a minute. Using the uranium fuel unit recipe i need 533.3334% to hit 3.2 a minute.

If i have 6 manufacturers @ 88.8889% producing 18 fuel rods every 5 minutes and 37 seconds will the power plants eventually even out so that they are all always on? Assuming i balance the fuel rods between the plants .

Or would it be better to have 5 manufactures @ 100 and one at 33.3334%

[elfin nebula]

both solutions will stutter one day

also, they say how much they do per minute.
ignore the actual amount and go with that

[barren elm]

The benefit from underclocking is incredibly small by the time you get to nuclear, I'd just use 6 manufacturers at 100% and never think about it again

At worst you'd get some power fluctuations from machines start/stopping but batteries smooth that out over time

[wet zephyr]

ye I just overproduce and consider it a buffer

[true junco]

Planning on incrementally building nuclear power plants with as few machines as possible.

1 manufacturer set250% for infused UFCs.
1 manufactuer set250% for "unit" UFR.
Will feed 3 NPP set250%

Waste disposal for the above is all default recipies.
1 blender 150% NFU
1 accelerator 75% PP
1 assembler 225% EPC
1 Manufacturer 150% PFR
1 Sink

[fathom bane]

it's two refinaries, next to each other. Either in-line or such that the pipe makes a u-turn.

[true junco]

You cannot make plastic or rubber out of HOR

[fathom bane]

oh, was the question "without byproducts" ?

[dusky zenith]

no, you just cant. residual rubber/plastic comes from resin, not HOR

HOR only makes residual fuel and coke

[wind spade]

question was "convert HOR to rubber/plastic"

[fathom bane]

ah, I was thinking of crude

[sonic quest]

How long does each hammer on the craft bench take?
Couldnt find a google answer for it

[wind spade]

Have you tried wiki?

[frosty owl]

~0.3s?
Sounds like you can "ting" roughly 3 times per second.

[ionic ridge]

Is it possible, and or feasible to build an effective fluid-priority splitter, using a mix of valves and height-change/sloshing magic?

**Implementation: **Diverting crude oil between fuel-first or product-first refinery setups.

[vapid gorge]

apparently the current fluid priority systems are busted in u8 so I wouldn't count on it

[oblique hollow]

priority merging busted, priority splitting is just VOP

aka "overflow with extra steps"

that should still work fine

[vapid gorge]

how odd.

[oblique hollow]

overflow was always pretty reliable

priority merging is the bastard one

[ionic ridge]

Found on reddit, but is this still an effective solution?

Basically, have a consumer before the upward-u-bend?
(Fluid direction is right-to-left in this example)

[oblique hollow]

thats just overflow

[ionic ridge]

suits my needs I guess.

[wraith terrace]

what is the most profitable item to destroy in awesome sink?

[wind spade]

!wikisearch awesome+sink

[brisk shore]

https://satisfactory.wiki.gg/index.php?search=awesome+sink

[proud folio]

One of the really late Space Elevator things

Thruster thing, I think

[wraith terrace]

i know that site but im more into the profit but without the time of automised product, if u know what i mean

[elfin nebula]

assembly director when cleaned the numbers

you can do the most of them from the same input

so more points

because other, especially the pasta, cap on resources way earlier

[wraith terrace]

arent the uranium products banned from sink?

[elfin nebula]

from where comes the uranium now?

and no, ore and rods arent

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/558721941410807812/1131128256565891203/image.png

thats the maximum

mostly assembly director, some rockets

other two are inefficient for points

pasta just takes too much copper

and magnetic fields are easy to craft and give no points xD

[wind spade]

then it all depends on how much you make 🤷‍♂️

but in general processing the item as much as possible yields most points

[brittle kayak]

Complementing on that: that's the sustainable maximum.

[elfin nebula]

well sure

everything else is impossible to calculate and compare

[brittle kayak]

Ye

[versed violet]

Wonder what is the energy-efficient maximum, eg using most economical recipes.

[elfin nebula]

but why

you get way more energy than you could ever use, even when doing it as inefficient as possible

[true junco]

Energy efficient is not necessarily the most economical.

[versed violet]

Depends what you define as economical. For me, its not using 5 times more energy to get 10% more output.
I want my factories to be energy efficient. Using green energy (nukes) and cutting on coal.
Energy prices went way up recently.
The 'saved' nuclear rods probably give much less sink points than if I used them to burn for energy then make moar resources with the energy hungry recipes I presume.

[true junco]

You can produce more power than you can possibly use before your computer melts tho. So 🤷‍♂️

[frosty owl]

Logistic nomenclature and semantics duscussion.

[amber basin]

Where can i find a good calculator for this game? I am a new player and trying to figure how many Automated Wiring and Versatile Framework I can produce these products. I am completely lost now. I have outputs 360 iron ingot / minute and 240 copper ingot / minute

[wind spade]

pins in this channel or #welcome has a few tools (one of them is made by me, so I'd recommend that one obviously 😛 )

[amber basin]

and one question, i saw some mods for this game like it's called 'SMART'. Is it also worth to have one?

[wind spade]

I personally would recommend to first finish the game without mods

after that you'll have better idea of what you do and don't want to add

many people have played without mods on all their saves for hundreds or thousands of hours and it worked for them, so there's definitely not a "necessary" mod

[amber basin]

thank you so much for kinda answers!

[wind spade]

@steel brook read #math-and-meta message

[brittle kayak]

I'm just shy of 1,900 hours. Haven't even considered mods.

[tiny mica]

How do you get mods? 👀

[brisk shore]

Official Modding Discord

Learn all about modding and join the community here!
<3 @wind spade

[brittle kayak]

How would I know, I just said I've never used any.

[tiny mica]

well at 1900 i thought you'd at least know, somehow i think the bod gave a disc link so asking worked anyway lmao xD

[median heath]

They are going to break them all AGAIN for U8.
Makes me so happy 😄

[tiny mica]

oof, i guess i shouldn't get back into the mods then lol

[median heath]

Shouldn't get into them in the first place 😉

[tiny mica]

i dont usually go for mods in games, but anything modular and build oriented i feel like mods just triple the lifetime, rimworld, alien dawn, city skylines etc

[median heath]

Thousands of hours in Satis, with no sign of slowing down.
Don't think it needs to be "tripled" 🤷‍♂️

[tiny mica]

ok but vertical splitter

👀

[deft lichen]

limitations lead to creative solutions

[brittle kayak]

And loads of beautiful spaghetti!

[median heath]

Why?

Split into Lift already exists and completely fills that function.

[tiny mica]

i value compactness

over ALL

[median heath]

You're talking to one of the most compact builders in this channel.

[tiny mica]

in my old factory whenever i could glitch crossover belts i would do it, the smaller the better

[median heath]

Except I will never clip or glitch.

[tiny mica]

ooh that sounds fun

[tiny mica]

we are not the same, i will gladly sacrifice my integrity and general decency in the name of compactness

[median heath]

Compact, no clipping.

[tiny mica]

ok that looks really nice and i now remember why i liked this game so much

[tender ether]

are the items teleporting into the splitters

[median heath]

No

[tender ether]

youd have a heart attack seeing what im doing

[tiny mica]

you can fit a conveyor in there, just hard to get out or change after

i used to do a lot of that

[small wharf]

i need someone to fact check my math cus i aint good at math. i'm planning to build a fuel powerplant, and this are the calculations i have so far.
i'm gonna pump 2400 crude oil into 40 refineries, which are overclocked to 200%, using the heavy oil residue alt recipe.
those 40 refineries will then produce 3200 heavy oil residue.
the 3200 heavy oil residue will be pumped to 53.333333 refineries, also overclocked to 200%, to be turned into packaged fuel using the diluted packaged fuel alt recipe.
after unpacking the packaged fuel, i will be left with 6399.99996 fuel.
the fuel will then be pumped to 533.33333 fuel generators to eventually create roughly 80.000 MW of power

[oblique hollow]

seems right

though doing more than 100 fuel generators officially earns you the Lunatic™️ award
Wear it with pride.

[thorny cedar]

dont forget the precious resin!

[small wharf]

i guessed so lmao. i just need the power because my max consumption is higher then my production. and that amount of power would give me a lot of headroom

i was planning to skip fuel and go straight to nuclear, but that isn't an option for me right now

[cinder silo]

Lunatic for more than 100 fuel generators?

[oblique hollow]

ye

[cinder silo]

It isn't even that hard.

[oblique hollow]

still well deserved

[small wharf]

i could also overclock the fuel gens to 200% for 266.666665 total

[brittle kayak]

Oh, I've earned the title too, then; my ElectriCity was 108 gennies.

40GW.

[oblique hollow]

yeah, congrats

[oblique hollow]

go with 250% cause why not

[median heath]

More like lunatic for repeating decimals 😉

[small wharf]

could do that too yea

[cinder silo]

Those decimals don't play nice.

[small wharf]

that'll indeed be a problem yea

[median heath]

That's why you pick different numbers.

[cinder silo]

I'm not the one that goes for x.333333333∞ / x.666666666∞ etc because those won't work 🤷‍♂️

[small wharf]

i can probably adjust the math to take care of those

[normal gate]

So I'm late T4/early T5, still catching up on factories a bit. I got a choice between heavy oil residue and pure caterium ingot from a hard drive. I feel like pure cat ingots might be smarter since that resource feels more scarce atm

thoughts?

[oblique hollow]

both are great, so it comes down to what you need more right this moment

Heavy Oil is a universally strong component in increasing the efficiency of oil production

pure caterium ingot is.... one way to gain more quickwire

[median heath]

late T4/early T5

This confuses me 😦
You're either in T3-4, or you're in T5-6
You're never in T4-5

[normal gate]

So I have T5 unlocked, but I still am not producing all the items from T4.

So offically T5, but still playing catch up item wise

like for instance i still need to do heavy mod frames, crystal oscillators, encased beams, etc

motors/stators

[median heath]

Stators you can skip tbh.

[normal gate]

true

So long term thinking Heavy Oil is the smarter choice?

[median heath]

Yes.

It's the sole alternate in the game that is objectively better.

Everything else is situational.

[normal gate]

thanks Sevrah, McGalleon

[oblique hollow]

so uh general question, how do i precisely interpret this xd

is GPU kicking the game time up or is game time kicking the GPU up

[oblique hollow]

this is an empty save someone is playing on. GPU is hovering on like 20%

[elfin nebula]

frametimes, the time needed to produce each frame. stuff is paralllel
51.51 ms means one frame takes 51.51 ms so 5.151 % of a second
means you get only these 19.4 fps
and the game itself takes 50.51 ms to calculate stuff while gpu takes 51.49 ms to craft the image.
so cpu and gpu bottleneck perfectly equal at the same time. probably one affecting the other

[oblique hollow]

reducing screen percentage doesnt help much, even at 25% its still in the 45 ms

sooo it doesnt seem to be GPU limiting CPU but CPU limiting GPU

[elfin nebula]

yeah probably gpu is waiting for the cpu. it should normally show the time that is actually needed to produce the frame by gpu without the waiting

like i have this on the dunes save

game takes 18.68 ms and gpu is faster than that

and draw is the slow part

though a normal save is quite good

[oblique hollow]

Btw, heres the image for ScreenPercentage at 50%

lower than the 50 ms, but still

Game seems to throttle GPU by processing something for 44 ms

[elfin nebula]

well, for 24 fps a frame is around 41 ms
for 30 fps its 33 ms
for 60 its 16 ms

for a short overview

[oblique hollow]

yeh i get that. but still, the Game thread wastes way too much time doing nothing since this save has nothing going on to my info

[elfin nebula]

get out that windows tool and see the actual thread usage

[oblique hollow]

how do you add anything useful to that

like, if i were to add GPU it adds all 50 billion instances

[elfin nebula]

#satisfactory-experimental message

[unreal bronze]

this is what im trying to achieve:
120 iron ore in, 100% rotor out

what ive gotten so far: i have no idea how to do maths.

[median heath]

Rotors are 45 Ore = 100% of an Assembler

So it would be better to pick either 90 or 135 instead of 120.

[elfin nebula]

https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=tyisaCLIO34Sb4vCt2T1

when you have alt recipes, go to recipes tab and add them

though only cast screws could help you here

[unreal bronze]

thats my only alternative recipe i have in the game

[elfin nebula]

and not even really

its this

vs this

[median heath]

And that can't genuinely be done given repeating decimals.

[unreal bronze]

😭

[median heath]

Which is why picking 90 or 135 as your ore amount is better.

[unreal bronze]

can a mk1 overclock to 135

on a normal node

[elfin nebula]

150

[median heath]

If base is 60, 135/60 = 2.25

[median heath]

Ew

Imagine not using Tools 😦

[elfin nebula]

https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=YdCIkexVVzlFHSNAh0UW
135 cast screw

[unreal bronze]

shouldnt the units/min match the 150 ore a min?

[elfin nebula]

garbage website does garbage stuff

[median heath]

Use Tools, don't deal with crap like that.

[unreal bronze]

ya what u sent me seems alot easier to follow aswell.

images actually confuse me more ngtl

[elfin nebula]

how can simpler images confuse more?

[unreal bronze]

i am saying tools seems easier to follow

[median heath]

They are saying the images in SCIM confuse more.

[unreal bronze]

anyways, how on gods green earth do u split 135 ore between 4 smelters... lol

[median heath]

Which is common, and part of why Tools is superior.

[median heath]

Manifold.

[unreal bronze]

images somehow make my brain less good at thinking.

[unreal bronze]

😕

[median heath]

!wikisearch Manifold

[brisk shore]

https://satisfactory.wiki.gg/index.php?search=Manifold

[elfin nebula]

interesting, with 135 input, tools always wants normal screws instead of cast

though i would have taken nomal as well tbh

just interesting it does as well

but actually cast should be the better one to build

5 smelter, in 10 constructors

[unreal bronze]

i dont see how manifolds are going to help me get a proper 4 split between the 135

[elfin nebula]

they split themself

[unreal bronze]

huh 😭

[elfin nebula]

the splitters half each time

[unreal bronze]

135 is a uneven number though

[wind spade]

--S--S--S--S
  |  |  |  |

🙂

[elfin nebula]

so first constuctor getting 67,5 doesnt need that much, belt gets full

[median heath]

Because infinite resources means everything self-balances.

[unreal bronze]

this somehow made my brain realize what u mean.

[median heath]

Each machine in sequence will take only what it can and then send the rest forward.

[unreal bronze]

that is extremely simple i hate my brain lol

[elfin nebula]

it will put too much to the first, but inventory and belt space is limited, so it will run full and then it will only put that much in the direction that is used

so self balancing. though can take quite some hours with small usage amount and large factories. so wouldnt do that for nuclar power or so

[wind spade]

on the other hand you can pre-fill or let it run while building next part of factory

[elfin nebula]

well, prefill nuclear waste sounds like a really bad idea

just skyrockets radiation

[wind spade]

not that much

especially if you build the waste processing somewhere outside of range

[elfin nebula]

well, it doesnt matter then, but it is more by quite some magnitudes xD

[unreal bronze]

well... manifold would be great but i need 5 smelters, one at 50%

[median heath]

Make the 50% one the first one in the manifold. Easy.

[elfin nebula]

well, actually doesnt matter much

[median heath]

Putting the lower clocks at the end can cause issues.

[elfin nebula]

never saw any

[median heath]

+5 to Confirmation Bias 😄

[elfin nebula]

well, there also is no logical reason for that

[oblique hollow]

whu kinda issues

[median heath]

Doesn't feed properly.

I truly have no idea why it happens, but I am not the only one to experience it.
Putting the underclocked machine(s) at the beginning of the manifold solves the unknown problem.

[oblique hollow]

is that for fluids or solids or both

[elfin nebula]

first time i hear about that

[median heath]

Solids confirmed.
Took habit from solids to fluids so idk about the other side of things.

[wind spade]

it's mathematically impossible for manifolds to not stabilise 🤔

[oblique hollow]

cant really say i experienced anything similar so sorry, no positive data from me for that observation

[elfin nebula]

yeah, it makes no sense

[median heath]

🤷‍♂️

If I knew the how and why I would state such.
All I know is the what.

[elfin nebula]

do you prfill the last one?

[median heath]

I always prefill.

[elfin nebula]

i dont prefill the last two for debug

also last one full can stutter

[oblique hollow]

Breaking
MAth

[elfin nebula]

maybe it amplifies the problem when its underclocked

[brittle kayak]

Well, I mean, bugs are bugs. I had an issue where "right-sizing" belts on a long manifold where all machines were started at exactly the same time caused the last constructors to not get enough resources despite the raw material output + belt capacity both being sufficient - on paper.

[elfin nebula]

i fill the last one to 50 %
for ore that means 50
so when i come back after few hours and have something outside of 45 to 55, stuff needs investigation

[unreal bronze]

what would be the best way to merge the output of the 5 smelters?

[elfin nebula]

5 mergers?

[unreal bronze]

one the right is 50%

[elfin nebula]

when in doubt

[wind spade]

manifold xD

[unreal bronze]

trying to avoid using mk3 belts

[unreal bronze]

wait wtf mk3 belts are cheaper than mk2s.

[brittle kayak]

FWIW, always max level belt everywhere is good.

[oblique hollow]

yeah thats the classic Mk 3 moment

[elfin nebula]

though here i would direct connect ngl

[median heath]

Why?

[unreal bronze]

do i really need a merger? if im correct, i could put it in series?

[elfin nebula]

one smeter does 30, so using 2 100 % for the rods, each split in two

[elfin nebula]

wait

[wind spade]

are all 135 going to one target?

[unreal bronze]

i can use mk3 belts i just had a brain fart

[elfin nebula]

literally what i posted

[wind spade]

if not, merge them in groups so that each group has the amount it needs

[unreal bronze]

can i put a manifold on each input for all the constructors and it will... sort it self out?

[median heath]

Yes.

[elfin nebula]

you can do this

manifolds on both sides

[unreal bronze]

this manifold buisness is starting to sound alot easier

[median heath]

Join our OnlyFolds.

[elfin nebula]

though i dont like them always. depends on the situation

[unreal bronze]

my idea is to have it all in a line, well one on the floor above.

[elfin nebula]

uh not sure how thats exactly meant

also kinda small to already go vertical

[unreal bronze]

want to keep it 4x4

[elfin nebula]

well then you have the output manifold line, and the next floor has the machines reversed, so that the inputs are on this side

[unreal bronze]

i assume i need 2 mergers to get all the output on the same line?

[elfin nebula]

so like

 —> constructor ->
|
 <— smelter <— ore

[elfin nebula]

as in my image, same one merger per output

in a straight line

i arrowed it

one merger line at output goes to next splitter line on the input

[elfin nebula]

yeah, and when you want vertical, do what i drew

so use a lift on the final merger and build th splitte rline directly above these mergers

and then reverse the direction the constructors ae facing

[unreal bronze]

i will try and squeeze the screw constructors on the first floor

[brittle kayak]

600 water coming down a pipe. 600 consumption. Problems. Creating a loop didn't fix the issue - only changed the location of the refineries that don't get enough water.

[elfin nebula]

not all pipes like having 600 in them

[brittle kayak]

Eventually fix was trivial: split pipe into 2x300, bring them in from opposite ends. Nothing changed in principle. Everything changed in practice.

Now all refineries get all the water they need.

[lone cliff]

I've looked over the wiki. And I SEE all the facts.
I've also looked through the list of recipes for both regular fuel, and turbo fuel.
I've read that turbo fuel is better for gas generators, but I just have a huge coal plant farm (48) so I don't think I'll need help with power? (But I just unlocked bauxite so I dunno)

So even though I have all the "facts" I lack the wisdom to determine which of these is better, can someone smart help? (P.S. I already have a great reinforced plate recipe, copper wire+iron plates so I don't think I want the middle one)

[wind spade]

there's no better

read #math-and-meta message

[lone cliff]

No better... what?

[wind spade]

see the linked message

[elfin nebula]

well, turbo heavy is bad in 99 % of cases and 100 % of cases when you think about it a second time

so you can at least say, that this most likely isnt a smart pick

[lone cliff]

hmm, it seemed to eliminate a whole machine from the chain, since I don't have to convert it to fuel first. Do you mind giving me a brief summary of what's bad about it?

I believe you, I'm just curious

My only thought was "I only use this for my jetpack/vehicles anyway"

[wind spade]

see, that's what's great about alt recipes - everyone can find params they like and don't like 🙂

[lone cliff]

but then I saw the thing about running fuel power plants on it

Greeny I lack the discernment to formulate any opinion on what to like or not like, or how to even evaluate it. So while I appreciate the simplicity of "don't worry about it you'll get them all anyway" I do also find value in the comments of others that might help me understand a bit more about the game.

[wind spade]

yeah, my point was "there's no best/worst/good/bad/etc"

since it's all subjective to whatever preferences you have

[lone cliff]

Oh, yeah, I got that from the link. But, knowing why I might like one over the other would be helpful.

I dunno, I guess I've just unlocked all the tiers, but I've mostly made everything by hand because these recipes are so crazy, and I don't have enough open space to build yet because I haven't really wanted to cover the skies in foundations, and haven't stumbled on any huge ground areas with massive wide open spaces.

[wind spade]

diluted packaged fuel: part of a recipe chain that converts oil to most possible fuel (earlier alternative to diluted fuel), however it requires alternate heavy oil residue for that chain
bolted plate: more screw cost vs normal recipe, but faster crafting
turbo heavy fuel: skips fuel step, but less oil and sulfur efficient than other turbofuel recipes

[elfin nebula]

600 oil to turbofuel with recipes:
normal: 1333
heavy: 640
blend: 800

sulfur needed for these:
normal: 1066 (0.8 per tf)
heavy: 640 (1 per tf)
blend: 400 (0.5 per tf)
so heavy needing much oil and much sulfur, always being quite bad

Most oil-efficient: Base
Most sulfur-efficient: Blend
Most space-efficiecnt: Heavy

since oil is in abundance on the map and sulfur is one of the rarest resources, you almost always want to optimize for sulfur usage, except you skip nuclear, then the normal is okay. heavy only when you want it tiny, but why

and the turbofuel production is really small in comparison to the generators anyway
so space optimizing is a weird concept here
so heavy basically is a bait and sulfur waste
would always go for turbo blend. save the precious sulfur

turbo heavy is one of the closest recipes of being objectively bad
is for space optimization in a factory thats small in comparison anyway

[wind spade]

though "precious sulfur" is kinda weird thing to say, as the reason why it's "rare" is because you're going for turbofuel 😄

[elfin nebula]

its rare even without

its literally the second rarest resource

while needed much

most people cap on that first

[lone cliff]

what's the most rare?

[wind spade]

and has close to 0 usages
you need like 20% for max nuclear, maybe some for bauxite, but even maxing those two doesn't max out sulfur
there's plenty left for tons of batteries

uranium

[elfin nebula]

you need like 20% for max nuclear,
did you mean, half of all existing

[lone cliff]

yeah, I'm mining it and have it belted, but haven't used it yet. I can't pick it up or it kills me

[wind spade]

sorry didn't mean "max nuclear", but "reasonable nuclear"

[lone cliff]

As many times / years as I've played this game, I've never once conceived of "running out" of a resource type, lol

[wind spade]

most people won't

[elfin nebula]

still first you will un out is sulfur. needed for nuclear and phase 4 parts

[lone cliff]

My first factory I built way up in the sky and had an endless plane of foundations to space out all my machines and make everything nice and tidy, but this time I was trying to conform to the space I was in, and make a more natural looking/organic base, but it's not worked out well.
Far too many machines are needed in sequence to craft parts. It went well for the basics, but steel is massive for even a 120 throughput

[elfin nebula]

and yes, max nuclear is 41.755 % sulfur when sinking and 45.439 % when burning

[lone cliff]

I had to abandon my first base because it was pretty early days, and the next big release completely changed all the recipes.

Jace was saying something like "Might wanna start over... sorry."

and I thought maybe I could just reconfigure, but he was right, basically would have had to rebuild pretty much everything anyway

[elfin nebula]

even when you say its not worth to build towards resource efficiency. still is no point in making something comparably small even smaller. not for the huge waste of resources

makes sense at many other places, not here

[lone cliff]

👍

There's plenty of hard drives, but, do any more MAM recipes come up that require hard drives? (I've researched almost everything so far)

Just wondering if I should keep 1 or 2 in reserve in case

[true junco]

Ive noticed this before and i have to ask why you keep saying sulfur has zero usage? It can be used for lots of things.

[elfin nebula]

there are like 20 more drives than stuff you can unlock

[vapid gorge]

if you don't know what you might like about a recipe CAN there be a better one for you?

[lone cliff]

some of them seem good to me because I have worked them a lot.
But the oil stuff I've barely scratched the surface of, and I've never used anything other than coal power in my previous bases.

I've mapped out 3600 power from coal plants, but I'm not sure how far that will carry me now that I'm about to try aluminum, and I haven't really automated much beyond the basic 8 or so recipes, everything else I've just been hand crafting.

[vapid gorge]

ok so for example - the packaged fuel https://satisfactory.fandom.com/wiki/Fuel?so=search

[lone cliff]

Yeah, I've seen all that.

But it's like explaining particle physics to a frog

[vapid gorge]

well I'll help take yo uthrough it if yo uhave afew min 🙂

[lone cliff]

I have no idea what all those numbers imply from a practical standpoint.

[vapid gorge]

if you like

[elfin nebula]

its not directly about the numbers, more about the used items in general

[lone cliff]

So it could be that when I'm doing all the nuclear and massive aluminum one of those recipes is super fantastic, but it's useless to me now. Or vice versa.

[elfin nebula]

always plan ahead

[vapid gorge]

in general? or this specific fuel recipe we're talkign about?

[lone cliff]

trying... lol

[true junco]

Well... a single maxed put oil extractor can gross 20,000MW.

[lone cliff]

Just in general Cobalt, I really haven't ever taking this game to the factorio level of launching a rocket per second

[vapid gorge]

Well I'll take you through this and the thinking process will help you with all future ones ok? 🙂

[lone cliff]

sure, but I thought @elfin nebula did a pretty good breakdown already.

just in case you missed it, and don't want to have to repeat

[elfin nebula]

pure 44 444
normal 22 222
impure 11 111

[vapid gorge]

but could you then do something similar to another receipe on your own later?

[lone cliff]

Could yeah.
Will I? Hmm... maybe?
Knowing there's a huge amount of drives makes me less angsty about it.

[true junco]

I meant without turbofuel. Lol.

Just oil and water.

[lone cliff]

and right now I need to work on automating screws

because I'm burning through a lot of them

[elfin nebula]

well, special case needs specification

[vapid gorge]

oh you can always get all the recipes - but this will help you choose which recipes to use when 😄 but it's up to you.

[true junco]

Turbofuel is a special case in itself. Lol

[elfin nebula]

so is diluted fuel

[lone cliff]

I didn't know, for example, that sulfur was a super rare resource that I'll likely run out of

so that really helped

[vapid gorge]

remember - there is not best best, just best for specific situations and requirements

[elfin nebula]

well, you can check a map or the wiki what resource exists how often

[vapid gorge]

Overall Sulphur per min on the map? not very rare. Locations? more rare.

The issues with sulphur is transporting it or building on location

you are very unlikely to use up the world supply of sulphur

Unless you use all the sulphur heavy recipes at every opportunity

[elfin nebula]

well, with average plans of many people you come really close to it

[lone cliff]

I originally was thinking of doing small outposts that do all the refining necessary for whatever resource node is in the area, and then shipping it all back to a hub with my space tower, and then shipping out again from there in whatever measure is necessary to create the parts needed, and then shipping those back to the hub again, so the hub area would be like a giant resource hub, but not a lot of manufacturing going on there.

[elfin nebula]

because maxed nuclear already takes half of it

then batteries as well

[lone cliff]

I've not made any batteries yet, I didn't see the point.

when do batteries come into play?

[elfin nebula]

its still the thing most people come close to running out before anything else

[elfin nebula]

phase 4 parts, drones

[lone cliff]

drones?

like factorio?

[elfin nebula]

craft material for endgame material used in buildings

[vapid gorge]

only if you want to sink p rods and no one needs max nuclear.

Sure you can always make a choice to use tons of sulphur. But.. if you have max nuclear and still have 1/2 the world sulphur supply? you aren't using it for fuel so heaps and heaps of sulphur around

[elfin nebula]

we use 1/3 for nuclear, 1/3 for fuel and 1/3 for batteries

its gone really fast

[vapid gorge]

In any case @lone cliff it's very very easy to have lots of sulphur available unless you use all the sulphur recipes

[elfin nebula]

we use 3

[vapid gorge]

Suuuuure... but you could get the same or more volume of power from less sulphur if you chose. get rid of the fuel and make a bit more nuclear for example

the mw per sulphur of nuclear is WAY more than fuel

[elfin nebula]

sure, but average person doesnt remove old power plants

[vapid gorge]

why not? all you'd have to do is make a slightly bigger nuclear one. flip a switch, turn off the machines and let the resources go elsewhere.

No offense but all your arguments of 'sulphur is rare' is 'we're choosing all the heavy sulphur consumption choices specifically'

[elfin nebula]

also still doesnt chane my point. its the usual stuff to run out first. idk what else could be a problem.
for us its clearly (uranium) > sulfur > quartz / caterium > bauxit / copper

[vapid gorge]

I could smash all the sulphur and coal together and make compacted coal and sink it directly and poof. Sulphur so rare

there's simple choices to get around your sulphur restrictions - and it's fine if you don't want to use them, but that doesn't make sulphur rare

[elfin nebula]

of what will you run out earlier?

also tools treats it as rarest after uranium as well

[vapid gorge]

Depends how you want to build 😄

I made a 50GW power station fairly early using only 1 node of sulphur and that is getting me through max nuclear with ease

[elfin nebula]

we wont reach max nuclear with that

we arent sure if our 150 gw are enough

[vapid gorge]

well max ur rods is apparently 26gw.

[lone cliff]

hmm, so my 3600mw from my coal area isn't going to get it done, it sounds like.

[vapid gorge]

Doubt plu rods is that much more

Plus you can always use power storage to bootstrap your station. It's what I'm doing

[elfin nebula]

we have 12 000 mw of coal while building the turbofuel

[lone cliff]

I'm only using 900 right now, seemed like it was going to last a while

[vapid gorge]

each new tier of machine uses more power. Building 48-64 coal gens before doing fuel power is fairly reasonable

[elfin nebula]

we just always use the 4 normal coal nodes next to the northern ocean

[lone cliff]

I have nuclear, should I just skip fuel?

I mean, I don't have my aluminum refining set up yet

[vapid gorge]

you've already unlocked nuclear w/o touching oil power? neat

[elfin nebula]

we as well

[lone cliff]

I've unlocked everything

[elfin nebula]

would take quite some power storage

to start that without any power plant backing it

[lone cliff]

Well, I guess the space elevator has a bonus thing I could do, it says planet builder or something

[vapid gorge]

so quick question - are you the type of person who will start a new map later once you've gotten a better hang of thigns? or do you think you'll mess around with this, get what you want of the game and finish

[vapid gorge]

build a cube bp of them. Pretty quick and compact 🙂

[vapid gorge]

but will you play again in a new map?

[elfin nebula]

takes still materials

what are most likely not there atm

[lone cliff]

play again in a new map? why, I just got the tiers unlocked, so i'm finally ready to build my base out.

[vapid gorge]

wire, frames and stators? not tooo hard

[vapid gorge]

but after you've done a bunch of stuff - will you start over?

[elfin nebula]

well, yeah. always forget they are cheaper than expected.
though with that small coal it will take time to charge at least xD

[vapid gorge]

less time than to build the power station 😄 my 15gw storage charged off 1 geo very quick

[lone cliff]

no, I hate starting over. I played through when there was only tier 4 as the max, then again about a year later, and again a year after that, and now I'm back again.

[vapid gorge]

ok then I'd wait to build nuclear for a bit.

My reasoning - it's a very complex system. If you want to get rid of the waste rather than store it in a death zone forever you need to use basically some of every resource type on the map.

It's quite complex and you probably will only want to do it the once, and not build a second nuclear station later.

[elfin nebula]

you need to use basically some of every resource type on the map.
thats a bit of exaggeration

[vapid gorge]

if you were wanting to mess around?
I'd probalby say build a small nuclear station. Play with things, figure out how yo uwant to build, then start a fresh project

Maybe stay on the same map but delete everything

[vapid gorge]

for p rods? I think it uses everything except maybe coal?

[lone cliff]

well I can't even pick up the stupid nuggets without dying

[vapid gorge]

you might be able to skip crystal if yo uget silica from bauxite

[lone cliff]

so I'm guessing I need to unlock this hazmat suit

I started a crystal plant a long time ago to get the fixit shop points

[elfin nebula]

im not sure if oil is needed

coal for sure not

[lone cliff]

I have 2 mines, I think they are doing about 240 each

[vapid gorge]

you need either coal or oil. Steel is involved

[lone cliff]

it looks like aluminum processing produces waste silica

[vapid gorge]

look at the alum ingot recipes

[lone cliff]

I have 48 coal plants, but it sounds like that's bush league power

[true junco]

There is a way to make aluminum and keep the silica for other things... its just worst ratio of aluminum ingots to bauxite tho...

[lone cliff]

is the nuclear in this game as complex as factorio?

[elfin nebula]

depends. there is coal in abundance, so we prefer oing large coal early to do not care for long tim

[elfin nebula]

no idea about factorio, but wouldnt say its that complex

you just shouldnt try to build everything in one factory. nobody irl does that and its never smart

[vapid gorge]

so just as a quick scan, if you use less resource efficient recipes you can avoid coal OR oil, can't avoid both.

and if you use waste silica from bauxite you can technically cheese not needing crystal.

so I'd call that saying you could avoid 1.5 of the resource types doing full uranium processing

[lone cliff]

well, you have to feed the u234 into a spin chamber to enrich it to 235 and you need a pretty huge steam assembly to properly take advantage of the heat pipes, and there's waste products that you have to recycle back down into reusable 234 so you can spin it back up again and some waste products from that to deal with.

I hated it, chose to just instead cover 5 million acres in solar panels and be done with it.

I built nuclear 2 or 3 times ,but it's just so fidgety

[vapid gorge]

it's prob not as complicated

you make Uranium rods, burn it, get waste, process it into P rods, sink or burn it

[elfin nebula]

nuclear here

and waste handling

[vapid gorge]

There are simpler versions too though - like this using the base recipes

[true junco]

All bauxite to aluminum recipe combos (except mixed alts per step) from max bauxite to resulting aluminum ingot yield. Guess which ones leave you with left over silica. 😆

[elfin nebula]

yeah but base uranium sucks

numbers are really scuffed and its not really easier to build in practise

[vapid gorge]

perfectly good if you don't need more power 😄

I'm looking at it now and comparing it to mine and kinda wishing I'd gone smaller xD

[elfin nebula]

it needs a combination of resources that is bad

[vapid gorge]

the alt recipes need the same resources + more?

[elfin nebula]

the alt way is way better

no

thats the point.
no steel so no coal, no limestone

copper only because i want copper

that also wouldnt be there

the alt thing just has
caterium, uranium, quartz, sulfur, iron

[true junco]

I would think one would at least use decent alts for everything other than the Uranium itself.

[vapid gorge]

you need steel for stators for E rods?

[vapid gorge]

depends what you have locally 🙂

[elfin nebula]

ah, its hard on first sight, i ship the stuff since it makes no sense to build in one place

[vapid gorge]

ah, if you look at the overall raw resources needed the Ur alts need the same as Base but +crystal

I'm building it all in one place 😄

[elfin nebula]

thats your fault then

[vapid gorge]

why? the only resources that aren't local is the sulfur and uranium I ship in

everything but 1 sulfur node, the uranium, and a small amount of waste rubber being flown in? right here https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/932761153703149659/1121048387219898478/the_rods.png

one central hub with 2 near satellites. 1 satellite does cat ingots and the other copper sheets, some ingots, steel pipes

Speed Runner Cliff has been renamed to Nuclear Cliff

[elfin nebula]

there are so good places for specific parts of it, that we dont want to build everything several times.
perfect place for the control rods? -> build all needed there

we go the irl approach

of having specialized factories

[vapid gorge]

ah and that's not unreasonable 😄

But I want to completely isolate my power infrastructure

[vapid gorge]

This is another highly localised factory I have planned. I have to bring in a few more rawr resources than the nuclear site though https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=6gS6HrlsFkEmf7BcNjY4

[elfin nebula]

well, but that makes low sense in general
its just subjective

but it being isolated has no real advantage

[elfin nebula]

cant even understand the idea behind this

[vapid gorge]

just a big factory to make computers 😄 it's fairly local too. I need to bring in some limestone crystal and oil, but it's moderately nearby and easy to move

[vapid gorge]

ok so as to advantages

The advantages to what I'm doing are moderately subjective but I'm happy to explain my thought process if you're interested

there is reasoning and logic behind it

[elfin nebula]

ours just exist temporarily and got no own factory

[vapid gorge]

ah yeah, the plan I shared is final final 😄

But yeah I do agree that to some people my reasoning for my power infrastructure to be like this may not seem valuable.

like many alt recipes 😄

[fluid pebble]

just started this game and it seems like its just all math

[main shuttle]

all math, all the time, combined with falling to your death a lot

& it's super addictive

[glacial linden]

can you have a simple system of doing a 10:1 ratio using splitters instead of how it usually give all of its outputs equal amounts

idk if that makes sense

like i want 90% of the input to go to only one of the outputs and the other output(s) get the remaining 5-10%

[vapid gorge]

More design really. Basic arithmatics helps but there's online tools to handle most of it

[vapid gorge]

split it into two and then do two 1:5 load balancer systems I guess? There's a guide on reddit.

Or the easier option is just clock your machines so you can merge 10% of the product on a belt in the first place.

You don't have to merge all your outputs you know

[brittle kayak]

Satisfactrolly math. How to double your input from 100 to 200? Simple: split and merge!

[median heath]

Not how that works.

[small wharf]

coming back on this, i have discovered that with the Blender Diluted Fuel Alt recipe, i get round numbers until the fuel gens. which stays at 213.333...

so i just gotta figure out how to do that

[wind spade]

diluted fuel and diluted packaged fuel are equal in oil->fuel efficiency

[small wharf]

yes i know

but the round number makes it easier to setup. plus i get a little extra power to use due to no packagers

instead of 6399.99996 fuel, i get a round 6400 fuel

[wind spade]

no reason that would be a thing

that's most likely rounding error of [tool you use]

[small wharf]

i use the ingame thing

[wind spade]

what ingame thing?

[small wharf]

the ingame searchbar

[wind spade]

yeah then it's a rounding error

both will produce 6400

[small wharf]

i guessed so. my big problem is just trying to get the fuel gens to a round number

[wind spade]

make multiply of 12 fuel

[small wharf]

i could try that

[median heath]

Oil in multiples of 45 will net you Fuel in multiples of 120.

So if you have only 1 pure node, extract 585 instead of forcing the 600.
Feeds exactly 130 generators.

If you have 1200 oil max available, trim it down to 1170, feeds exactly 260 gens.

If you have 1800, you can do the full 1800. And it will feed 400.

[crisp peak]

Is there some sort of cheatsheet with this info somewhere?

[wind spade]

not really, as people mostly use clock speeds to adjust

[crisp peak]

Makes sense

[median heath]

No, just head math.

You need Fuel in 12's for generators.
3 Oil = 4 HOR = 8 Fuel
12/8 = 1.5
1.5 * 3 = 4.5, upscale to "do Oil in multiples of 45" because it is easier to think in 45's than it is in 4.5's for most people.

[small wharf]

so if i have 2400 oil available, i need to extract 2340 oil to get a round number?

[median heath]

2385

But 2340 also works.

[small wharf]

i see

[median heath]

2385 would feed 530 gens.

Or, if you're like me, it would feed 212 gens at 250%.

[small wharf]

then i'll use 2385 oil

[summer flare]

Here ya go

[winter panther]

Oh wow, something like that can actually be compact?

Nice

[small kayak]

@winter panther ☝️

[barren elm]

Alternatively

1 splitter, and wait for the machines to fill

Boom, every possible ratio covered effortlessly

[lone cliff]

Will this work to do aluminum? I want to ensure priority for water coming out of the middle one to supply the left and right, vs. the long u-bend pipe coming from my water pumps.

[median heath]

Uhhhhh... only one way to find out.

[lone cliff]

As I understand things, the reverse U should wast excess input from the pumps and allow the refinery to pump out with priority.

but I may be reading things wrong

[median heath]

At a glance I want to say that it shouldn't work.
But turn it on and find out.

[oblique hollow]

the u bend is for overflow

[lone cliff]

based on the google hits, I'm asking for something everyone is looking for. A priority input to ensure the waste water feeds back into the pipes before the pump water does so things don't clog up.

but it said that the higher input water waits for lower, so I thought by making this pipe taller than the input (the refinery) it would work.

I guess maybe I just don't understand how to do it.

[median heath]

We have this.
It just... isn't built the way you tried to build it.

Piping manual is in the pins.

[lone cliff]

where should I plug in my pump water so it waits for the refinery water

yes, that's exactly what I tried to build