math-and-meta

[steady gate]

go right ahead, im also working on some diffirent things😅 designing blueprints is becomming a addiction😅😂

i can send you some other screenshots so you can replicate it better if you want?

feel free to dm me if you're interested

[bronze lily]

What do you mean fluids don’t have to go nowhere? All of the time, day and night, refinery won’t make no more loofah because gas’s juice no have output! Big sad!

[worthy basalt]

can someone send the diagram for making crystal oscillators optimally

[median heath]

Isn't that going to vary wildly depending on recipe choices?

[wind spade]

what do you mean by optimally?

[worthy basalt]

if itd be faster to use several smelters and stuff

[wind spade]

well you should use as many smelters as you need to produce the amount/min you want

[median heath]

More buildings will always increase production rate... But yeah, build the amount needed.

[worthy basalt]

yeah ig

does anyone have a diagram

[wind spade]

unless you tell us how much you want to make and which recipes you want to use, we can't send you anything

or rather we can but it would be a random guess

[median heath]

Even then I'm not sure what exactly they want.

[worthy basalt]

nvm i found one

thanks though! im new around here lol

[wind spade]

build your factory, not factory of someone else 🙂

[median heath]

☝️

[worthy basalt]

i just need to know how some things work in the first place lol

[wind spade]

well copying a schema won't help you with that 🤷‍♂️

[median heath]

Play the game. Listen to ADA.

[wind spade]

open machine that produces oscillators, look what it needs, repeat for the ingredients, until you get to raw resources

[teal summit]

hello frens, just starting this game out, ive set up auto mining/collecting for iron copper and limestone, but theyre all far away from each other. is it better to put smelters near my hub and conveyor the resources from far away, or to put smelters near the miners and walk far away any time i need resources?

which would be better for the long run

[wind spade]

make things near nodes and transport them to central storage

[brittle kayak]

Depending on item, you can get pretty nice compression that way. For example, 1 iron plate takes 3 iron ingots and the stack size is 200, as opposed to 100 for ingots, so you can effectively get 6:1 compression (moving 1 stack of iron plates is essentially the same as moving 6 stacks of iron ingots - takes a lot less space).

[wind spade]

2 iron plates take 3 ingots

[brittle kayak]

Oh right you get 2 at a time. My bad, was just going off on memory. A little less compression but the main point still stands. 🙂

[true junco]

I think of that in terms of "density"

Logistics work better the denser the item being transported.

Probably the most extreme example of transporting the input item for density is Steel Beams for screws.

Transport comparison.

Mk5 belt = 780

780 screws
780 rods = 3120 Screws
780 Fe Ingots = 3120 Screws
780 Steel Ingots = 3120 rods = 12480 screws
780 Steel ingots = 195 beams = 10140 screws
780 Beams = 40560 screws

Railway Freight unloading beams to make screws
1405.4 beams/min = 73,325 Screws/min
Vs
1494.25 screws/min

[teal summit]

Hello frens, am new to the game (just finishing up tier 2) and have a question on resource production. Currently, my iron factory is producing a decent amount of plates, rods and screws. Soon, I’ll need to produce reinforced plates and other iron items, but this would mean forgoing production of one of the things I’m already producing. How do I choose what to forgo? This applies for my copper factory as well (currently only producing wire and cables)

[wind spade]

my suggestion is to not touch previous productions and make future productions out of raw resources again

[teal summit]

Ok another follow up question. I know it’s subjective but how do you choose where to “end” your current production? For example, in my current factory I was making plates and rods, then expanded to screws when I needed. At what point would I say “let’s not expand on this and instead build another factory from scratch”?

[wind spade]

for my suggestion, each product is "separate"

ofc you can build them in same place from same node, but when you're building the factory, you already know what it will produce

with that you also never expand existing factories 🙂

[teal summit]

I see, so essentially one node per product?

[wind spade]

no, one factory per product

nodes - you use as many as you need to reach the target X/min you want

[teal summit]

This makes sense! Thank you 🙂

[wind spade]

basically the process is:

• figure out what item you need to produce
• figure out how much you want (based on which buildings require it)
• figure out how many raw materials will that cost
• (possibly adjust production so that numbers are nicer, if you want)
• find a nice place that has the nodes available
• build the factory there
• ship the product to central storage
• repeat

(keep in mind this is just one of many ways to play the game, I just find it nice and simple especially for newer players, as you never need to plan much ahead, you don't have factories depending on each other and logistics are pretty easy)

[teal summit]

Yaa as a new player I feel like I spend a lotta time planning out future expansions and productions and it gets overwhelming at times. I’ll try out your way 🙂

[wind spade]

planning ahead is only good if you actually know what you want to build in the future, which you often don't know

[elfin nebula]

or rush the milestones with respaghettiing your factory and start with fancy ones afterwards

[snow dove]

that's basically been my strat

i have spaghetti factories for every item in-game, now imma go back and redo everything to look all nice

[fleet flume]

Something to consider is upgrading an existing factory (location near the node) to produce more of the same things, (for example) using a MK2 miner (when you unlock it) and over clocking OR adding additional lines (splitter, constructor, merger) and upgrading belts based on speed, is a way to expand, but not really expanding (since you are not adding any new production lines, just making more of the same things)

[teal summit]

Yup, designing for this kind of expansion makes sense to me, designing for new production lines makes my head hurt

[fleet flume]

Only thing I do different is copper. Almost every node I start making wire and cable from is EASY to add (later) the copper sheets, and you need them for plumbing.

[ashen stirrup]

and for hypertubes 😄

[fleet flume]

Plumbing (for oil and coal power) are needed to get you over that next hump and then you need them for circuitry and such, but that's where I build a separate setup (usually near caterium) and make them both.

Personally, I never use hyper tubes. To each their own

But yes, if you want hyper tubes, you need copper sheets for that as well.

[wind spade]

in my suggestion above this is solved by not expanding in that way ever

because every production has it's own raw resources and has enough resources to produce, there's no reason to expand

[fleet flume]

Would you simply leave a note running at tier 1 speeds for the rest of the game then?

[wind spade]

no, you can upgrade the miner if you need more resources for different factory

but there's no point in upgrading the original one

[fleet flume]

I disagree, esp at tier 1-2 speeds. Come back to it with a MK2 miner, and add a few smelters, and constructors, and you take a tier 1 location making the basics at mk1 belt speed, up to mk 3 or 4 speeds, and you've quadrupled your output of the same things.

[ashen stirrup]

What resources will I need a lot of to make a train network?

[fleet flume]

Steel beams and pipes

[wind spade]

but do you need 4 times as much of the same thing?

[fleet flume]

Tracks require them

[ashen stirrup]

So not really encased beams then

[fleet flume]

Depends on what they are building, and if you are sinking overflow, at that speed, why not?

[wind spade]

because it would be better to leave the materials for something that you really need?

[fleet flume]

You will need encased beams for MK4 conveyors

[median heath]

EIBs aren't used in any part of train infrastructure.

[fleet flume]

Are you gonna run out? Nope

But you might come back and find your containers are not full after you gathered them all up previously?

[wind spade]

then you build more of given product?

[fleet flume]

Optimizing a "start point node" to make more (let's assume start point materials like rods and screws and plates) makes more available, from a known/explored location.

He asked for ideas, there's more than one way to get "more" items, and sometimes building anew, is a pain

[wind spade]

building anew is pretty much exactly the same as expanding 🤷‍♂️ you build same number of machines

and making more than you need just because the node is not fully used is weird, because it's better to use the extra from node for something you actually need later

[fleet flume]

I think we must be seeing 2 very different scenarios. Lemme re read the original question, as I understood this is EARLY game situation.

[wind spade]

my approach is universal and doesn't depend on game status

[wind spade]

see here

[ashen stirrup]

I find it hard to figure out how much I want, and so I usually go with "as much as these nodes over here can produce."

[fleet flume]

Yes I read that, however he is playing at tier 3, and probably doesn't know what he's going to need to build next.

[ashen stirrup]

I had 480 iron/minute at the location for my motor factory, and so I'm making 16 motors/minute

[wind spade]

why not? it's "hey I want/need this building/schematic, but it costs material I don't have"

[fleet flume]

Perhaps the "played thru several times" answer isn't as universal as you think.

[wind spade]

well it's relatively simple to do so - you check what buildings require that material (wiki or codex), you roughly know how often you build those buildings, so that makes a nice estimate of per minute production. Most items need 15-30 max. And if you find out later that you don't have enough, you can always build more (which isn't unique to my approach, that happens with any approach)

[vapid gorge]

another solution to this instead of making entirely new factories is you can feed your screws plates and everything into containers as a buffer and still use the production line to make Reinforced iron plates.
That way you can make all the new parts and some are siphoned off to hte side for personal use.

It's a less complex way of doing things if, technically, less efficient in resources. Much quicker to go up the tiers though

[wind spade]

the problem is that you get into factories depending on other factories

so upgrading/rebuilding one becomes close to impossible

[teal summit]

Ya my issue with this is depleting resources that I may need. For example, if I feed plates + screw storage containers into a reinforced plates line, I might not have screws when I need em

[sand epoch]

No one "needs" screws 😄

[snow dove]

some of us tolerate screws

[teal summit]

They’re good to chew on 👍

[vapid gorge]

nah just build on floors and expand outwards as needed. Verticality 😄

[vapid gorge]

yeah but it floods the whole system really quick while you build another factory or go exploring or do whatever. Surprisingly quick. this was my last starter base. Just did things in floors and belted parts as needed with buffers to the side and in between systems. Meant you could very quickly make some of the new parts you unlocked.
And if you build in floors you can expand smelters and constructors easily https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/553550313533997057/1134345939054776380/main_old_base.png

[half geyser]

120 limestone production per minute
45 limestone consumption per minute

[vapid gorge]

underclock a machine?

or just have a machine at normal and it'll just have periods of down time

[half geyser]

It’s just annoying that base limestone production on a pure node with an mk1 miner can produce enough for… 2 and 2/3 constructors for concrete

Early game annoyance

Gonna underclock ofc bc it saves precious power

Biomass grind

[vapid gorge]

An intro into logistic solutions when a recipe produces 2.875 of an item per minute base rate 😛

[half geyser]

Aaaaaaaaaaa

[vapid gorge]

Clocking is your friend. Learn the clock, Love the clock

[half geyser]

My factories are more like 0.0078125

Per minute

[half geyser]

How far does it round to

[vapid gorge]

You'll pump the numbers up, dw.

[vapid gorge]

so rounding only comes into the speed of hte machine

and that's to the fourth decimal

[half geyser]

Nice

[vapid gorge]

so if you wind up needing to clock it with a repeating number like 66.666666666666?

clock to 66.6667%

[half geyser]

I personally would go to 66.6666% personally so that it has zero downtime

[vapid gorge]

you'll create more down times that way since everything behind and ahead will stutter

[half geyser]

Bc most of the time I’m either doing that for final output machines or it’s going on a train

[half geyser]

Won’t it do that either way?

[vapid gorge]

not as much

[half geyser]

Huh

[vapid gorge]

so ok lets say a step in your process has some machines that do the number example I gave you

[half geyser]

Well uh my factories happen to be where the definition of “spaghetti” was decided (they even got a whole food named after them) so usually I just leave everything at 100% and occasionally boost something if it feels slow

So like

[vapid gorge]

if you go .6666, you'll very slightly produce LESS than what is required, so everything you've planned AFTER will have moments of starvation sent up the line

AND you'll be using slightly LESS items than planned for so everything BEHIND will slowly fill up and stutter from being full

If you do .6667, all that will happen is every few thousand hours that machine will turn off.

[half geyser]

Which in theory ends up at the same net impact

Except one is put off by like a year

[vapid gorge]

no because it'll use up all the items you send to it AND it'll feed enough for hte next step

[half geyser]

But when it shuts off

It takes a second to turn on again

Unless it’s a producer I guess

[vapid gorge]

sure but because of spin up times there'll be enough parts on the line to keep it going for the 2.5 seconds it's down

[half geyser]

Meanwhile liquids:

[vapid gorge]

Liquids are simple if you know the rules

[half geyser]

I personally put a pump on every pipeline every 3 feet

[vapid gorge]

that's a good way to waste power and possible cause issues with having too small a pipe section

[half geyser]

In theory my producers are making what comes out of the output

But like uh

Dunno it feels janky

But that’s prolly because I don’t pay enough attention to it

[vapid gorge]

I can give you a quick tute if you want to give me an example of a fluid system you've built

[half geyser]

I just overwhelm my producers with materials and call it a day

[half geyser]

Oil line going basically across 75% of the map

[vapid gorge]

best way to do it is with something you've built, and images so I can break down what is going on

[half geyser]

And total upward climb of some 700m and net of 70m vertical

[half geyser]

i, uh, did, though.

Images will be hard

It’s quite long

[vapid gorge]

the bit where the machines are are the important bit. As long as you have the head lift to get to hte height then it's fine

[half geyser]

Yeah

[teal summit]

any tips on power? i tend to run out p quickly (am on solid biofuel atm, and gathering leaves is a pain)

[vapid gorge]

I find if you sprint around and punch like 10,000 leaves for like 8 minutes and turn that to solid biofuel that will get you to coal power pretty handily.

if you're confident on your weapon skills I think alien meat turns into a fair bit of biomass

once you hand mash it to biomass it's pretty convenient to use 1 consructor to turn it all into solid as you do stuff

[quartz violet]

how many aluminum ingots are you guys making in your worlds

im not sure if i should make 1200 or 2400

meh i might as well go needlessly overpowered

[cinder silo]

4320 aluminium ingots here

[quartz violet]

I know if i ask you its going to be triple the amount I could ever reasonably use in my world

[cinder silo]

You can overflow>sink the overproduction until your need expands so building upwards isn't necessarily a bad thing.

[quartz violet]

I can always double up my factory if i need more aluminum

I have the infrastructure to do it, I just dont really want to deal with making twice the machines and twice the power if i dont have to

especially packaged water

[cinder silo]

Ahh wastewater issues, My system broke down in a very slow painful manner, in the end I ended up using 64 coal generators to take up the waste.

[teal summit]

is there a better mid game way of transporting stuff to central storage other than conveyors?

dont wanna make giant lines of conveyors across the map

[quartz violet]

walking

thats how I do it

[teal summit]

o

[quartz violet]

trains are better but running around isnt too bad as long as you get a big inventory

[wind spade]

That's neither upgrade nor rebuild

[wind spade]

trucks, drones, trains, depending on what you consider midgame 🙂

[velvet void]

something ive always wondered....

why is the mk3 270 and not 240? why is the mk5 780 not 960?

[wind spade]

mk4 was 450 back in time 🤷‍♂️

[elfin nebula]

im glad its 270 tbh

way easier to overflow split

[wind spade]

270 fits nicely in 45 multiplies

[velvet void]

true i guess

[elfin nebula]

yeah, without that we would have many problems with load balancing

45, 90, 135 etc all hard without it

[wind spade]

but the original reason was that devs initially wanted a bit of challenge concerning belt speed and didn't want them to be linear. That's why originally it was 60/120/270/450/780. They buffed mk4 to 480 for some reason (most likely tons of people complaining it isn't linear 🤦)

[elfin nebula]

ironically 270 makes it way easier than 240 xD

[velvet void]

gib mk6 belts

[elfin nebula]

linear would mean split are always the same, everything that doesnt fit with one belt wont ever fit

[wind spade]

not until performance is fixed

[elfin nebula]

also not really needed tbh. you have rarely so many items on one.
the mk3 miner should just get the second output

[wind spade]

also not needed given you rarely max out map

[velvet void]

that works too

the upper block looks goofy without a hole there

[elfin nebula]

well, for some materials its convenient, because there arent that much on all places

like caterium

many single pure ones

[wind spade]

well devs/game tries hard to spread your factories around the map 🤷‍♂️

so that's intentional

[elfin nebula]

sure, still xD

[velvet void]

yea

[wind spade]

it's just part of the challenge devs want 🤷‍♂️

[elfin nebula]

they could just give us nodes with 3000 output and fitting belts and see people struggling by trying to max that xD
could result in even moe stuggle than too less

[storm sky]

what's that music?

[ashen stirrup]

Liquids question. Given this (vertical) setup, will the refinery start receiving fuel only when the generator is full? Even if the refinery is lower than the generator?```
Sky
__________________
| |
| |

---J--->Generator |
|
|
Refinery
Ground```

[wind spade]

yeah, it should

liquids use close-to-irl-physics

[ashen stirrup]

Lovely

So let's say I have a factory where I'll be consuming 1000 m3/sec of fluid. Could I put all the refineries on one loop, as long as I space the inputs out around the loop between refineries?

[mystic moon]

Yup

[ashen stirrup]

Lovely. Good to have both a sanity check and a check that there isn't some known bug with any of these things.

[wind spade]

@glossy timber read #math-and-meta message

[cinder silo]

The first 30 seconds of Two Steps from Hell ~ Fire nation.

[storm sky]

Thanks

[teal summit]

Is it possible to make 100% efficient rotor factory with 60 ore/s

[elfin nebula]

sure

why shouldnt it be

also, what ore?

[teal summit]

Iron ore

[wind spade]

simple

[elfin nebula]

meh

[wind spade]

60/s 🙂

[teal summit]

O I meant 60/min

I’m silly

[wind spade]

then depends on recipes

with base recipes - no

[teal summit]

Also what tool are you guys using for those pictures

[wind spade]

https://u6.satisfactorytools.com/production

[elfin nebula]

im at 60 per minute

why shouldnt it work?

[wind spade]

can't reach 100% efficiency on machines

[brittle kayak]

Gah, downside of being too efficient: I don't have the tiniest little speck or crumb of copper extra in my Cooling System facility and now I need to run 1.3km of belts or whatever just to get 13.33 more copper. Argh.

[elfin nebula]

you sure can

[median heath]

I think my base Rotor BP takes 45/min to function at 100%.

So 45/90 both work, 180 would be the intersect with multiples of 60.

[wind spade]

how can you reach 100% efficiency on 0.333333 repeating of machine?

[elfin nebula]

easy

[wind spade]

you either have 33.3333% clock speed and you don't produce enough or you have 33.3334% clock speed and efficiency is slightly under 100%

[elfin nebula]

nobody said, we need to use all 60

just that we wont have more

[wind spade]

that's just nitpicking

you could say "produce 0 rotors"

with same result

obviously isn't what OP meant

[elfin nebula]

no, the question was producing rotors. 0 would be wrong

[teal summit]

Ok yo I got my answer it’s chill, I just wanted to make sure I didn’t mess up my math

[elfin nebula]

op wanted to know if its possible to get any rotor with that low iron

[wind spade]

no, question was "100% efficient rotor factory". Nobody said anything about producing more than 0 rotors per minute
(obviously I'm nitpicking here, but it's the same as you)

[pallid oxide]

They are having an intellectual discussion

[wind spade]

I'm pretty sure OP wanted to make sure that the decimals are indeed repeating and it can't be 100% efficient (if you use all ore)

[elfin nebula]

then the question would be worded really bad for that

because it not even close asked it

[wind spade]

it's worded fine 🤷‍♂️ 100% efficiency is when machines run at 100% of time, 60 iron is 60 iron

[elfin nebula]

can i do x with y sets y as the cap, not as minimum as well

thats to be specified explicitly

[wind spade]

meh, never had to be

[elfin nebula]

because you just imply stuff that was never written

doesnt change the fact the question fails to ask that

[wind spade]

or you failed to understand it 🤷‍♂️

[elfin nebula]

now bringing this to meta level, its both.
the question is wrong but can be understood by most people because of the implicit autocorrection humans have.
thats actually the case with about 85 % of all sentences, they dont really say what people want to say nor what others understand, but the error on both sides matches and so it still works.
doesnt work for me and other autists, because we dont have that ability at all.
i studied language for over a decade to be able to half way talk normally, still biological impossible to get that autocorrection for stuff, so only able to understand the literal meaning of a sentence, not what people actually wanted to say.

[sand epoch]

I love seeing half of a 🍿 worthy discussion and not having to go crazy 🙂

[elfin nebula]

what do you mean o-o
just a normal and calm conversation

[velvet void]

tough choice, plutonium alt or uranium alt?

since im not sure if either or is good

[median heath]

Completely skipping over the most resource-efficient Rotor recipe?

Well ok then:

Uranium Alt -- very yes.
Plutonium Alt -- only if you're planning on burning Plut Rods and dealing with permanent waste.

[deft lichen]

uranium alt is better for a large scale nuclear setup, but adds unneeded complexity for a small setup

[elfin nebula]

well, still. before also burning plutonium i would scale up the uranium with the alts

in this case would take the rotor, its just too amazing to not use

[wind spade]

#math-and-meta message

[honest lotus]

if you make a factory with the uranium alt then be aware that beacons will be removed in a later update

[brittle kayak]

Likely.

Likely removed.

[honest lotus]

They are completely useless outside of this one alt because map markers exist

they're getting removed 100%

[brittle kayak]

So absolute.

[velvet void]

tbh I kinda liked having physical beacons

[honest lotus]

there's PENDING REMOVAL in large caps right above it

[honest lotus]

true

I mean you can still use beacons

but they just instantly disappear and turn into a map marker

[brittle kayak]

Yep, and LIKELY below it.

[velvet void]

It’d give some nice synergy to radar towers, you can remotely manage virtual beacons anywhere In it’s range, but outside you’d need to place down a physical beacon

[honest lotus]

holy shit guys an argument is starting and I'M IN THE FRONT ROWWWWWWWW

[brittle kayak]

There is always a chance they come up with additional uses for it and then decide not to remove it after all.

[honest lotus]

Description contradictory

[honest lotus]

I mean if you're at the point where radio towers are feasible you're probably long past needing beacons

[velvet void]

True true

[pearl hornet]

is there any way to automate encased industrial beams without having garbage numbers? i just spent some time making an 8 foundry stack just to find out encased industrial beams take 24 per minute, and trying to play with the clock speed to fix stuff just ends up with me getting encased industrial beams with a lot of decimals

[deft lichen]

garbage numbers are infinitely repeating decimals, decimals that fit into the 4 decimal spots should be fine

base recipe or alt? (you should be using the alt)

[median heath]

Define "garbage numbers"?

[pearl hornet]

don't have the alt yet

[median heath]

I use base 😂

[deft lichen]

@pearl hornet how many steel ingots?

[pearl hornet]

360 per minute

[deft lichen]

I hope you have solid steel at least

[median heath]

360 is the number of Steel Beams I need 🙂

[pearl hornet]

i am looking forward to the "end game" lol

[deft lichen]

those are pretty clean numbers

[median heath]

Just do 90/min @deft lichen

[pearl hornet]

thanks!

[median heath]

90/min = 15 Machines
Which is 360 Steel Beams (24 Machines)
Which is 450 Concrete (30 Machines from Base)

Clean AF

[deft lichen]

oh I thought 90 ingots input

[median heath]

Nuuu

45-81 rule dailed into my "1 stack per minute" goal.

[oblique hollow]

from what i remember you just need 5 assemblers and you get 30/min Encased Beams at pretty decent input numbers

[median heath]

Taking what I do for 90 and dividing it by 3 would give you: 5 EIB machines for 30, 8 Steel Beams machines, 10 Concrete machines.

[oblique hollow]

yup checks out with what i remember from general machine ratios

[crisp juniper]

Crediting the research a commitment to find this information

[young arch]

Greetings. I've a question.

I'm setting up some steel production. It says there that it needs 45 iron ore per minute. I would like to set up machines so that the total output to be 120 steel per minute. For that I need 3 Foundries, that produce a total of 135 steel per minute.

Can I put down three Foundries, then feed them a belt of 120 iron ore (40 to each) so that the output comes out as 120?

[median heath]

There is no Foundry recipe that takes Iron Plates as an input.

[young arch]

Iron ingots.

[median heath]

Solid Steel takes 40 Ingots/min, not 45.

So yes, you can feed 3 of them 120, because 3 of them want only 120

[young arch]

Ummm....

Also I don't have that alternate recipe

[marble token]

There is one recipe with iron ore, and an alternative with iron ingot

[median heath]

You said "Iron Ingot"

[marble token]

But yes, you can just underfeed iron ore to 120 to get 120 out. Underclock the machines to make it balanced if you like

[young arch]

Made a mistake saying 'ingots' rather than ore

Yes, thank you.

So used to Factorio steel production

[marble token]

I.e. three machines underclocked to 40, or two max and one underclocked to 30

[median heath]

Take everything from that game, throw it out of your brain.

[marble token]

If you haven't unlocked underclocking, no biggie, your power will just fluctuate

[young arch]

That's a bit mean. I ain't done with factorio just yet.

[median heath]

Don't bring any of it over to Satis

[true junco]

Its not mean. Its just that what is true in Factorio isnt true in Satisfactory, and trying to use Factorio practices in Satisfactory will eventually run you into a lot of problems.

The shear number of times ive seen people come in here with an issue and it turns out they tried to Factorio their Satisfactory as the route cause... 😆

[dim spire]

Why do so many people take a flat, non-insulting statement as "mean"?

[woven storm]

i think it's the way it's said. especially considering it's the internet and hard to portray things in the desired way. a lot of the conversation here seems to appear very matter of fact and like people are jumping on an opportunity to critique which is obviously not how a normal convo is. like you're just talking to a robot that is trying to find ways you are wrong. i can see how that will rub people up the wrong way even if its not intended. also, in this case i believe Sev meant that it's a bad idea to try to use Factorio logic in SF but it was perceived more as saying Factorio is trash and should be forgotten

[cinder silo]

The point being differing mechanics in spite of having similarities will cause endless problems, treat the two as separate games.

[median heath]

in this case i believe Sev meant that it's a bad idea to try to use Factorio logic in SF but it was perceived more as saying Factorio is trash and should be forgotten

I am fine with both interpretations to be honest 😄

(But I will admit that is moreso prejudice I have attained after 4 years of listening to Factorio people come over here and bitch about Satisfactory stuff that "well it should just work like Factorio")

[cinder silo]

People conflating one game with another, it would be like me going from wow to swtor then moaning about mechanics, ~worked fine in wow etc.

[median heath]

At least SWTOR knows how to continue a storyline instead of "LOL WE RAN OUT OF IDEAS SO TIME TRAVEL TO RESET EVERYTHING" 😉

[woven storm]

i think carrying general concepts of something over can help you understand a game better if you have played something similar before. like you can transfer some skill from racing games over to other racing games and shooting games to other shooters. but in games like SF that only really transfers the basics it seems

[cinder silo]

Depends entirely on the games mechanics, some will outright punish you for not doing things quite right.

[dim spire]

I think that only works in the case of general logical concepts, not how-to practices.

[woven storm]

yeah for sure. for most racing games it's more just refining your ability to control the car and getting better. with SF and other factory games it's more understanding how the concepts work as it looks like they are often different even though appear to do the same thing. I've never played Factorio but i often see a lot of people asking how they can train stack effectively in SF when the logic seems to be almost entirely different between games

[median heath]

Racing game analogy:

Think of F vs. S like contrasting Need For Speed vs. Forza.

[elfin nebula]

what need for speed and what forza.
some are quite similar

[oblique hollow]

Base design doesnt carry over because 2D vs 3D and also different bounding conditions
(Depleting resources and swarming enemies VS literally just you and your imagination)

Fluids doesnt carry over because 2D vs 3D
Trains doenst entirely carry over because no repathing and path signals being a bit more complex, plus some other differences.

So what DOES carry over between the 2 games?

[frosty owl]

You make factory

[oblique hollow]

unga bunga factory make stuff

"machine show number, me no understand"

guess that carries over lol

[frosty owl]

I'm not so sure about the "bunga" part, but I agree with the rest

[junior slate]

iron plates

uhh

[oblique hollow]

items? booo

literally isnt a skill

[junior slate]

it's about the only thing that carries over

[proper belfry]

The real chad complaint is complaining that SF should be more like DSP

Let me pave over that lava planet!

[main dirge]

Math

[oblique hollow]

the general skill of math, yea.
But thats any sort of "logistical / incremental challenge game"

[main dirge]

The inexplicable concept of the only plentiful/useful metals in existence being copper and iron, while coal, uranium, and stone are just chilling

(though ig sf doesn't really need copper)

[dim spire]

Iron is the base because, while humanity may have learned the whole copper/bronze deal first, we're not using primitive tech in these games, which makes "base iron" the default, because it's extremely prevalent and far stronger in general across known space.

[barren elm]

Yeah beyond "pull resource out of ground and turn it into factory", the 2 games are really nothing alike

I've always held the opinion that satisfactory is really an architecture game in a factory game trenchcoat

#design-and-architecture is the real meta

[frosty owl]

Lies. It's all about balancing and math

[median heath]

Lies. It's all about shooting explosive rebar into the skullplates of orange lizards.

[oblique hollow]

SF: Factory builder. More about the decoration and actual process of builing that planning and managing big factories
Factorio: Factory planner. Building is just "a side effect of needing actual production". Bots and BPs and logic handle the rest of the process.

[dim spire]

Decent summation.

[velvet void]

if i plan to fully exploit a uranium node for nuclear power, should i train the uranium over or can a drone or 2 keep up?

[median heath]

Drone can handle 1 node

[dim spire]

Drones require battery construction infrastructure though, yes?

[median heath]

Aye.

[velvet void]

batteries arent terribly expensive though

its just the logistics headaches of needing to get them to all the ports that need them

[brittle kayak]

Only at one base (that they visit) though, so no need to get batteries everywhere.

[quartz violet]

what are drones better for than trains though

[elfin nebula]

transporting single stuff you dont want on your train network

[deft lichen]

low throughput across long distances

they're also trivial to set up, building tracks takes time

[quartz violet]

huh

I havent really used drones much since they are so late in the game and i usually end up getting bored before T7 and leaving the game for long enough that it makes more sense to start a new world than continuing the old one

[elfin nebula]

we plan to use drones for radiating stuff, because we dont want that on our train network

[quartz violet]

i guess they are more reliable than trains if you are confident in your battery production. so yeah, makes sense to use them for uranium junk

[ashen stirrup]

Does anything radiate aside from the stuff you'd use for nuclear power?

It seems from the outside like it'd be better just to keep the radioactive stuff near the uranium node from cradle to grave

[vapid gorge]

the radioactive stuff doesn't generally sit in places you can process,burn,deal with waste on the spot

[sand epoch]

Everything

[open patrol]

not everything. they wont ram space whales

[crimson pollen]

opinions?
This excel gives me the items/min of each material according to the maximum raw material that a belt can carry

[elfin nebula]

opinions on what

[wind spade]

opinion - you shouldn't be making full belts, but instead base the amount on how much you need, how much you have available, etc.

[elfin nebula]

yeah, belts seem like a bad idea

[vapid gorge]

Unless you’re doing a weird self challenge I don’t see much of a point? But if it’s something you like you do you

[crimson pollen]

I usually use the same node to make different objects when the containers are full. With that I look for the miner never stop producing

This works for me because I use the overflow system at all times

[wind spade]

usually people just overflow the storage to sink, so they always make the same thing

[elfin nebula]

we never did less enough that we could actually do more than one thing per node

[wind spade]

also, there are online tools (in #welcome) that can do the same thing 🙂

[elfin nebula]

would say more, since we get flowcharts etc

[supple belfry]

There’s a neat method to top off storage where a smart splitter can be used to send ingots to various production lines. I think it’s a pretty valid and worthwhile way to optimize your storage solutions, but it comes at the cost of points—once the container is full and your production lines saturated, you can sink the ingots.

[wind spade]

why would you put ingots in storage?

also why would you sink ingots instead of final products? 🤔

[supple belfry]

I’m not explaining it well—you’re not storing ingots. You’re sending them through a series of smart splitters into a series of production lines (usually just one machine is plenty). So I have a belt of iron ingots that I will send into plates production, rod production, wire production (sometimes), etc. to various production processes. The ingots don’t need to be sunk, but you end up with a line of production that tops off your storage, then sends ingots to the next storage need.

You can sink ingots if you wish, but if you sink the product, this obviously doesn’t work quite the same

[wind spade]

that sounds weird.

Either you have exactly the amount of ingots you need for all productions to run and then you don't need smart splitters
Or you have more ingots than you need and then you want to build more factory that consumes ingots
Or you have less ingots than you need and then you should instead get more ingots

[supple belfry]

If it’s serving as a way of topping off storage and serving personal building needs, then yeah, it’s inconsistent by nature.

It’s a decent way to establish outposts with various bits of production throughout the map, while keeping each facility from dipping into your power much.

[wind spade]

meh, me personally I'd never build factory that only runs at 100% if storage of something other is full

[supple belfry]

I’ll plop down a sink at the end of more advanced product lines for points, but sinking plates doesn’t feel worth it.

[mystic moon]

I'd rather just have constant production and sink the excess of the produced items after storage is full

[supple belfry]

Sinks are nontrivial power hogs, especially early-ish game.

[wind spade]

until you get coal you won't reach the point of having full storage
with coal all power concerns go away

[brittle kayak]

For me, rn, it's the sheer amount of ingots being produced (6000/min).

Haven't gotten around to actually using them, yet.

They're still doing some good as is, when sunk.

[supple belfry]

As someone who has never really enjoyed returning to my power infrastructure to bolster it further, I disagree with the premise here.

[wind spade]

I'd never make things I don't need yet 🤷‍♂️

[brittle kayak]

Good on you.

[frosty owl]

||Still waiting for the moment you'll be making things ||

[wind spade]

my storage+sink design

(obviously factories may be somewhere else and items transported to the storage)

the top horizontal belt connects to the bottom horizontal belt at the end of the line

[modern scarab]

that storage design works ok for your starter materials but once you exceed 780 (which you 100% will) then everthing gets backed up. My first one had the same principal and it stopped being useful pretty quickly

[wind spade]

which material you need more than 780/min of?

[modern scarab]

because you're sinking at the end instead of each individually, it will happen. you have to combine all of your items

[wind spade]

that's constant usage of 13/sec for building, not even concrete can do that much unless you're paving gigantic flat space

most of materials have 15-30/min production

and there's only 32 items that go into storage

which means if you have 24/min average production, you're fine even with full storage

[modern scarab]

ok, i'm just saying out of experience it will happen. and then you'll have to rethink it after the fact

[wind spade]

"rethink" means you just add another belt tbh

[modern scarab]

but to each their own

[wind spade]

split the bottom horizontal belt in half, have two sinks. Not much complication

[modern scarab]

ok, i was trying to give constructive critisism which clearly you don't appreciate or accept so i'll be on my way

[wind spade]

well your criticism was "it won't work and you have to redo everything", while the fix is adding one splitter and one sink 🤔

[modern scarab]

no, my criticism is that it will work but it's not a long term solution. and that won't fix it. but anyways as i said i'm out. good luck

[wind spade]

the solution is definitely long term and can work for rest of your game 🤷‍♂️

with the only maintenance needed is to add another sink in case your total production exceeds 780, which it usually won't

[frosty owl]

I don't mean to sound mean, but I think you're the one not accepting what others are saying. Your critic has been read to and is being argued about.

[modern scarab]

so let me ask you this then. what happens once your storage is filled? does it not back up onto the belt like how the rest of the game works? Then say you come back from some exploring and unload your stuff into your "drop inventory here" box and that will come out of there at the max speed which will be guaranteed to slow down all of your splitters and since your storage is full everything else backs up. and then to top it all off there is no Smart splitter setting in the game that says "consumables" so what does the end of your line look like?

all i'm saying is that there are a few variables that you haven't considered and I was trying to offer insight. another sink won't fix all of your issues.

[wind spade]

once storage is filled, everything overflows to sink. If you dump your inventory, there's more items indeed, but even if factory backs up a bit, it doesn't matter as it clears out once the "drop inventory" container is cleared.

the "consumables" can be either set of smart splitters or a programmable splitter

I have considered variables that you talk about and another sink will fix all the issues related to max belt speed

[modern scarab]

oh so your diagram is not an actual depiction then. why even bother posting a WIP without saying it's a WIP. i hope no one tries using it as is

[wind spade]

it's not a 1:1, you don't have a single box which is "item factory" indeed.
it's a simplification to show a principle

[modern scarab]

which is not how it was advertised

[wind spade]

I'm pretty sure majority of people can understand what I mean

[modern scarab]

there's a lot of new people here trying to learn how things work

that's who i'm referring to

[wind spade]

if you want to nitpick and have me to show 10 smart splitters for each consumable or list all the consumables, then sure I'll do it just for you

[modern scarab]

i don't want it. my storage is far more complex

[dim spire]

over here feeding shit into a storage unit for most individual items, with an overflow splitter in front of it, a mk5 to a sink and going "eh, screw it"

[modern scarab]

i just don't want a new player to come here and try to replicate a flawed design that's destined to fail since it's incomplete

[wind spade]

the main thing is displayed up to every splitter. The only "simplified" thing is the smart splitter for consumables, which I could just label "programmable splitter" which would solve all your issues.

new players would either understand it or get stuck on there not being option for consumables, at which point they would ask me

it most definitely will not fail

[modern scarab]

that's not the biggest flaw, again it's putting all of your items onto one belt as you don't have a contingency for when it backs up.

[wind spade]

new players won't have as big production

and it's not a flaw per say, nothing will break

[dim spire]

Except he does. "Add another sink".

[wind spade]

worst case your factories will stop producing at 100% efficiency (but that's the case when you have full storage, so you don't care much about that anyway)

[modern scarab]

exactly "new players" as in "it works for now" but again it isn't a long term solution

[wind spade]

read above again

[modern scarab]

sure that works for iron and copper stuff. but what about oil products or aluminum products where losing efficiency causes fuel issues etc. I agree it works for some stuff. But it's not by any means a final soution

[wind spade]

oil products don't cause fuel issues (at least when built properly)
and those systems should have their own failsafes anyway

[brittle kayak]

I always make sure all of the liquids are used up and all solid (by)products have an overflow sink splitter.

[wind spade]

I never claimed that the storage system is "the only sink you'll ever need"

[brittle kayak]

Basically, the only reason for my aluminum production to slow down has been due to water (recycling) issues.

[modern scarab]

right which is coming from personal experience no doubt. we're talking about new players here

[wind spade]

by that argument I'd have to explain the whole game together with the shared image, because what if new player doesn't know what a splitter can do or what is a factory

there's tons of tutorials out there which are plain wrong and will break your factory, nitpicking on one that "breaks" (not really) in a rare situation that most people won't run into is just weird

[modern scarab]

no, by that argument if you're going to show your storage solution then you should include the important parts of a storage solution and since factories are on there, put a box indication overlow sinks next to them if that's your intention. You indicated that it's your "storage and sink design" and yet it's incomplete

[wind spade]

but it's a storage design. Not factory design

[modern scarab]

it's a small portion of your storage and sink design

you called it "Storage + Sink Design". I didn't label as that

[wind spade]

well it's a design for storage with integrated sink

I never claimed it's the only sink you ever need

[cinder silo]

My storage area actually has four sinks.

[modern scarab]

no doubt because designing and planning for the minimum should never be the norm. gotta have somehting left over for contingency

Mine has one sink for every 3 items just in case.

[snow dove]

mine has 6

i sort up to 6 full belts, so i wanna be able to sink up to 6 full belts

[cinder silo]

I don't need quite that much disposal room at the warehouse end, but my for-storage lines are limited on purpose, but always stay ahead of what I use.

[supple mural]

my malls never make enough stuff to need more than one sink

and if i have a need for a lot of throughput for something like concrete id probably just give it its own belt, and i dont really care if concrete backs up

[wind spade]

that's exactly how my design works - everything has it's own belt, nowhere do you mix items 🙂

[supple mural]

i do a nice sushi belt

its just simpler, really

[cinder silo]

Smart splitters are just god, without them I'd have a warehouse feed like my old one:

[supple mural]

put fifteen low throughput items on a single mk5 belt with this one smart trick

[cinder silo]

Yeah, the old warehouse pictured above has been long demolished.

[supple belfry]

I run a sushi belt into the smart splitter array, and then inject high throughput items (eg, plastic) directly into the container or into the sushi belt array mid-way.

I also like to send overflow into a couple freight platforms, and have a locomotive bring the excess to a couple other storage facilities across the map.

[fickle tree]

how many coal generators can be kept up with 4 normal coal vein with mark 1 miners

[median heath]

Amount of Coal / 15 = Generators

[fickle tree]

thanks

[wind spade]

all the info is available ingame when you open the machine's UI

[whole ether]

the equation for belt speed based off of the mk of the belt is
2.5x^4 - 30x^3 + 162.5x^2 - 255x + 180 where x is the mk of the belt

[median heath]

Ok?

[wind spade]

there's no equation for belt speed 🤔

at least no intended one

[median heath]

Even if there was, what does it do?

[supple mural]

you can make any polynomial equation (of sufficient order) go through any arbitrary number of points

so, like, thats meaningless

[median heath]

Making an equation to tell you what the in-game description already says it kinda pointless tbh.

[supple mural]

if mk 6 belt is 1260/min though i will give you medal

[wind spade]

it is not

[supple mural]

it doesnt exist

[wind spade]

it did exist

[supple mural]

it did?

[wind spade]

yeah, it had 1200 speed

[supple mural]

hmm, perfect match to a mk3 miner on a pure node :thonk:

[wind spade]

what a coincidence

[supple mural]

can they fix the engine already >.>

[wind spade]

no they can't

they are looking at other options

[supple mural]

😔

[wind spade]

most of which probably includes not having mk6 belt

[supple mural]

the mk3 miners does have space for two outputs

so maybe they do that

[oblique hollow]

better approximation for all belts:
30 * [Mk]^2
mk 1 and mk 5 are exceptions

my bet for mk 6 would be around 1080, if they ever add it

[wind spade]

I'm hoping for a big rebalance with more linear gains between belt mks

[oblique hollow]

i like this quadratic nature

[supple mural]

remove mk1 belts from the game 😎

[wind spade]

well it leaves realm of possible running on UE very quickly 🤷‍♂️

[oblique hollow]

they just buffed mk 1 and mk 5 with an extra +30

[wind spade]

7 tiers
60/120/200/320/480/720/1000

results in gains of
+60/+80/+120/+160/+240/+280

works nicely imo 😛

[snow dove]

last number is +280

[whole ether]

it is actualy mk 3 not mk 1 that is an exception

[oblique hollow]

30 * 3² = 270

[whole ether]

ok I did it as 30 * 2^mk

[wind spade]

yeah you shouldn't ever trust me with math

[snow dove]

lol

[supple mural]

says the guy who managers scim >.<

[wind spade]

I don't

[supple mural]

satisfactory tools is from you isnt it?

[wind spade]

yeah and that isn't scim

[supple mural]

oh

[wind spade]

(how would you get scim from Satisfactory Tools? 😛 )

[supple mural]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[snow dove]

tools is the superior calculator anyways

[supple mural]

i dont know how the map's thing would be scim either

[snow dove]

though technically scim isn’t a calculator

[wind spade]

Satisfactory Calculator and Interactive Map

[supple mural]

that makes sense

[snow dove]

it is an acronym

[wind spade]

(for mine it's SFTools usually)

[snow dove]

that ain’t really an acronym

[wind spade]

||Satisfactory Tools - Totally Out Of League, Seriously!||

[snow dove]

fair enough

[barren elm]

I bet they just end up rebalancing all recipes to generate/use less resources per min

[wind spade]

given they want to do a rebalance pass on most recipes, I think it's gonna end up a bit more complex than "just reduce everything"

[dim spire]

Currently there are recipes that reduce overall resource use, some that basically just change resource type, some that'll make it so you can use fewer machines, some that do some/all three of those....and some that are just "wtf?"

[elfin nebula]

which fall under wtf?

[dim spire]

You would ask. Gimme a sec to pull up the list I was looking at.

[supple mural]

Wet concrete

Fertile uranium

[vapid gorge]

wet concrete is amazing

[supple mural]

Eh

[dim spire]

Steel Canister. Instant Scrap. OC Supercomputer. Electromagnetic Control Rod.

And my personal favorite, Crystal Beacon still being in the pool for an item slated for removal.

[supple mural]

Do you mean electromagnetic connection rod?

[dim spire]

Yes, sorry, I duno why I typed it that way.

[supple mural]

This one list I found rates it higher than the normal method

[dim spire]

The only benefit is "makes it not require AI Limiters"...but who's NOT making those for smart splitters and shit anyway?

[vapid gorge]

instant scrap is tied for top alum output, oc can be nice if you want to reduce it to a 2 part recipe and put them together real easily, EC gives you the choices of a lot of different resource use to build them and a saving on stators

[vapid gorge]

most people when making permanent factories dedicated to a production line. It doesn't matter if they are already using AI lims for personal construction

[dim spire]

Interesting, since the Wiki says OC supercomputer offers no reduction in use of resources, power, or complexity.

[supple mural]

It only has increases in all of the above as far as I know

Instant scrap east sulfur, which is why it’s bad

[vapid gorge]

sure - but you can build those 2 parts in dif spots and very easily ship low parts per min to different sides of hte map

[vapid gorge]

lots of sulfur on the map

[dim spire]

See that argument you just used re: AI limiters then.

[supple mural]

Sulfur is more useful in nuclear reactors

[vapid gorge]

it's still an option. Like I said - when you build permanent factories it's easier to have dedicated production lines. not an AI factory you just pull crap from

[vapid gorge]

you can do max nuclear and still have TONS of sulfur left over. That's not the down side of instant

and steel canister is fine if you don't want/have copper/oil around

[supple mural]

Is there any production line that actually consumes canisters?

[vapid gorge]

vehicles and jet pack

[dim spire]

Everything is an option. I can handcraft most stuff even up into assembler range. Doesn't mean it's a -good- option. If you're rating an alt recipe as good because you just need to move "one part" from hither to yon, then the same logic applies to AI limiters shrug. You may be right, I may be wrong, I'm just saying the logic is inconsistent.

[vapid gorge]

but not auto production I think. So yeah in general canisters are closed loop systems

[dim spire]

Oh, yes, I forgot biocoal and charcoal...which apparently can never be automated.

[vapid gorge]

it's consistent because I was telling you the benefit of only having to move 2 low ppm parts to make super computers and you're trying to flail your arms and go 'move everything'

as for the Electro Rod alt - I have a plan going because it reduces my use of steel which is a restricting point

[dim spire]

For this to be the official discord, you guys disagree with the information on the official wiki a LOT.

[vapid gorge]

there are ways humans think and build which will probably give some alt recipes more opportunities to shine - doesn't mean the rest are bad though because they might be a bit more niche

[vapid gorge]

I don't see how 'the alt is good to reduce the steel consumption' as disagreeing. You can look at the recipe and see it reduces the steel component significantly

that's not even an analisys. It's just looking at a smaller number

[dim spire]

And according to the wiki, there is no resource reduction with that alt.

[supple mural]

Less steel but more baux is not a positive

[vapid gorge]

It's a reduction in steel - you could argue it trades it for other resources with the connector

[vapid gorge]

no baux in any of those chains

[supple mural]

Oh, rods

[vapid gorge]

still produces the same rods?

[supple mural]

On mobile cooking food, my reading comprehension goes down when that is going on

[dim spire]

https://satisfactory.fandom.com/wiki/Hard_Drive/Alternate_recipe_analysis

[vapid gorge]

the the HI connector you can choose to remove Copper from the equation too

[supple mural]

this is what i use
https://www.reddit.com/r/SatisfactoryGame/comments/xutbq3/phase_4_alternate_recipes_ranking_w_spreadsheet/

[elfin nebula]

whats important about that list:

The goal is to make the 4 end-game items in the ratio it takes to complete the last tier with the nuclear power to do it without creating any waste.

in all other situations, its wrong

[supple mural]

i think "all other situations" is a bit of an overstatement

[vapid gorge]

yeah I would NOT use that one at all, it makes a ton of assumptions and only looks at a few uses.

it has IRON WIRE in the F TIER

[vapid gorge]

there's a new wiki

[elfin nebula]

wrong as in cant be applied blindly

[vapid gorge]

https://satisfactory.wiki.gg/wiki/Electromagnetic_Control_Rod

[dim spire]

On the one I linked? I can't find that text.

[elfin nebula]

below the two images

[elfin nebula]

above the rankings

[vapid gorge]

the person who wrote this should be slapped

[elfin nebula]

well, for the situation that is actually correct

but as soon as you change it, most stuff is wrong

though the oc supcomp is in the correct place xD

[vapid gorge]

even for phase 4 it's dumb. These are all great

[supple mural]

i guess my issue is assuming that a max build tier list would be widely applicable

[vapid gorge]

I use most of these for my permanent factories

[elfin nebula]

because you are in another situation

[vapid gorge]

making max build phase 4 parts?

[elfin nebula]

no

making the ratio of it

so it maxes one of the 4

and all other 3 do way less

so no need for these max output recipes, because they waste power

[vapid gorge]

that doesn't even include logistical considerations, which the pure recipes are great for

[elfin nebula]

and lowest power is the second rule of the list

so we dont max much here

[vapid gorge]

I guess if you're trying to squeeze another 0.25 TPRs? maybe

[supple mural]

if you dont need the oil, then a recycled fuel factory isnt worth

that's why its in F tier

[vapid gorge]

but the ranking is pretty awful in just about every other context

[twin lantern]

Need some input plz

[supple mural]

those all kinda suck imo

[vapid gorge]

what's your next project?

[supple mural]

maybe rigour motor is ok?

[elfin nebula]

not sure how much it actually.
it should max at the pasta, and do like 20 % of possible rockets or so

[barren elm]

Coke steel

[twin lantern]

Yikes, still working on Phase 3

Been working on aesthetics

[vapid gorge]

yeah but what's your next factory 🙂

[twin lantern]

I think steel might be heavy

Steel rods are good, no?

[elfin nebula]

so you do 100 % of the pasta and since you use the fixed ratio, you do really less rockets and even less magnet fiels an assembly directors

[supple mural]

so going 100% pasta gets you the most points?

[elfin nebula]

if you dont do that, the list is not applicable and useless for you

[vapid gorge]

ok so if you're going a bit big later rigour motors is great - TONS of motors for a few oscilators

Coke Steel is good if you want to make steel and don't have coal around

bolted RIP saves you space

[elfin nebula]

never said that

the list is not about point

its about doing the 4 in the ration you need to send

[supple mural]

i misinterpretted what you were getting at then

[elfin nebula]

and pasta is the most expensive and caps first

so you wont reach max at the other 3

because ratio disallows

[twin lantern]

@vapid gorge Okay, so say I still heavily depend on compacted coal power atm

[vapid gorge]

sure

[barren elm]

You're overthinking this, they're all not gonna help you through t3 and t4

[elfin nebula]

and about maximum points: #math-and-meta message

assembly and rockets.
pasta way too expensive

[vapid gorge]

well none of those really help with power. If power is your next project pick one that you feel is cool and keep going 🙂 they are all moderately niche in their use BUT if you have that need they are amazing

[elfin nebula]

and magnet field just inefficient

[vapid gorge]

if power is something you're looking at I'd look at getting the Heavy Oil Residue, and Packaged Diluted Fuel or Diluted Fuel alts if you get blenders

[supple mural]

i see

[elfin nebula]

but the ratio is this

so 1 pasta, 1 rocket, 4 magnet field, 4 assembly director

[vapid gorge]

like so 😄 https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=dJRwSbFMtv3VXQNaOPqF

[supple mural]

one awkward part about a full map factory in the proper ratio is that you'll finish one part before you even finish the nest one :thonk

[vapid gorge]

well not with the plan I just linked

[supple mural]

:rocksus:

interesting

it loks likes spaghetti

[vapid gorge]

It does - which is why it's the master plan. I've broken it further down into hubs which are a bit more custom built

the broken down plans are SLIGHTLY different in resource/recipe use but I've kept track of resources across the map

[elfin nebula]

how did you pick the alts?
why not just all

[vapid gorge]

better control of where I'd be able to make things locally.

If you include power productions I think 8 factories make all this

2 of those are for power

[vapid gorge]

and possibly it was telling me to use pure iron and regular cable? which was nonsense in my opinion

insulated cable is my baby

but like I said recipe use isn't consistent through all my hubs

For example the Ur Rod Factory uses both Fused QW and regular QW

[elfin nebula]

so what you linked will sink you
105 405 240 points
while the optimized with not phase 4 ratio will give you
171 603 000 point
so 62.8 % more
also debatable if all power is used there or if we could sink plutonium instead of burning

the ratio we get just doesnt fit to the map resources

so the list only works in this specific ruleset

[vapid gorge]

yeah I don't like that people use it as a general alt analysis.

[elfin nebula]

like, obvious wont you ever use many of the more output alts when you run out of copper for pasta first and dont need that much of other stuff

problem in one image

[vapid gorge]

Well... that's not necessarily true either you might still want to based on locality.

[elfin nebula]

btw, that triggers

[vapid gorge]

Most of my recipe choices were made looking at the map with what I have to move in mind

[elfin nebula]

set the correct number

[vapid gorge]

I think that happened because I knew the amount of plu rods I'd be making and just slapped numbers in

[twin lantern]

Another, input plz.

[elfin nebula]

oh actually, thats your link, i already tinkered with it and allowed other alts

your choice of alts seems to waste quite some stuff xD

[vapid gorge]

well same thing but the CB one I feel, personally, is the most niche

[twin lantern]

Can reroll?

[elfin nebula]

i never touched any of these 3

[vapid gorge]

look I have had use for 1 and 2

[elfin nebula]

when loading a save before you gave the hdd to your mam

[twin lantern]

well, i dont want 1

[vapid gorge]

yeah but the locality gets frigged up.

[twin lantern]

I took the steel on the last one lol

15x15 = 20

[vapid gorge]

oh that's COMPACTED

yeah I never use that one

it's even more niche. It has it's uses

[twin lantern]

Nah, im used compacted for power atm

[vapid gorge]

Look I really like rigour, but that's because I make big factories

[twin lantern]

So rigour vs ECBs or reroll

[elfin nebula]

-i have no sulfur, so not the first one
-i need my oscillators and other motors are cheap, so not the second one
-well, they are easier with other setups, but this at least is possible

[twin lantern]

Or does reroll lose a drive

[vapid gorge]

I'd grab rigour - remember if you pick them they are out of hte pool forever

[twin lantern]

okay, rigour, thanks

[vapid gorge]

not sure with u8, couldn't do it with u7

[elfin nebula]

as said, you need to reload a save before putting the drive in the mam

so just that you never analyzed it

[twin lantern]

I've wasted 1 HD then

[vapid gorge]

oh btw, you mentioned you were making your factories pretty ? rush unlocking aluminum for the hover pack. Makes life much easier

[elfin nebula]

i hate the hoverpack

[vapid gorge]

Shut your heretic mouth

[twin lantern]

I'm trying to get to stuffs. here, this is what ive been wasting life on
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/932761153703149659/1137155068689403914/Screenshot20230804-18424900000.png

[vapid gorge]

I like it 🙂

[elfin nebula]

oh, i have an image for the exact same place

[vapid gorge]

did you make sure the train won't clip through the cables? It looks like it might

[twin lantern]

It will 10000000000000000000% not

[vapid gorge]

good good 😄

[elfin nebula]

different angle, but still my coop mate doing wild

[twin lantern]

Actually, it didn't to start, then I realized I had a one hair closer i could move it, and moved it to damn make sure of it

[dim spire]

Ha, that's where I'm building as well.

[elfin nebula]

parts of the cables and reinforced plates factory
left one is normal plates, right one wires.
cables and reinforced still missing and in construction

this one

[dim spire]

You ran iron to one side of the lake and copper to the other?

[elfin nebula]

not my factory, so dont know that much about it, let me see

cable building is probably somewhere here

though cables are so less, we could probably just add one or two floors to the building

its not decided yet

[twin lantern]

Last one for now.

[elfin nebula]

amazing, scam, situational nice

[twin lantern]

I took the steel 15 x 15=30, so I guess the first would be complimentary

15x15=20 actualy

[supple mural]

those are all not that great

not many recipes use screws

[elfin nebula]

screws are top tier

even for a single use

[supple mural]

its hte best option here

but it coulda been a less niche alt

[twin lantern]

I think, logistics wise, its less stuff on a the belts

[supple mural]

i like steel rotor

[elfin nebula]

ew

[supple mural]

:3

[elfin nebula]

for my image:
cast screws would mean 280 constructors
most resource efficient would be steel rod. but the problem gets even worse

steel screws make it really small

while still being quite efficient resource wise

so ship few beams and do huge amount of screws

with oc you can get 650 screws per min out of a single constructor

[marble token]

Steel screws are less power, less buildings, and mostly less iron. The only advantage is less coal, unless you need that coal for something else, I much prefer steel screws.

[vapid gorge]

funnily enough I was doing a big HMF plan and when I went to use the screw recipes for rips frames and all that it mostly just shifted the machine count around. There might have been a small difference overall

[indigo belfry]

Im new to the game and have absolutly zero clue what im doing does this work for splitting 2 into 10

[elfin nebula]

it doesnt even have 10 outputs

[indigo belfry]

each splitter outputs 2

[elfin nebula]

okay, restart.
what do you have and what do you want

[indigo belfry]

2 conveyors in 10 out

[elfin nebula]

no. item amount

[indigo belfry]

wdym

[elfin nebula]

the belt amount doesnt matter, the amount of items on them

so want to know the item in and out

[indigo belfry]

120/min

12/min out each hopefully

[vapid gorge]

is there a reason you don't want to manifold it?

[elfin nebula]

1 to 10 is oof
first split in two, then do two times a 1 to 5
https://satisfactory.wiki.gg/images/f/f3/Balancer_odd.png

basically do a 1 to 6 but cycle the sixths part back to input

a 1 to 10 would do a 1 to 12 and cycle two back

[indigo belfry]

that makes sense

but I think my nonsense also works

[elfin nebula]

could randomly be one of these

[vapid gorge]

I just want to make sure - you are aware manifolds also are completely efficient right?

[elfin nebula]

depends on the situation

[indigo belfry]

no idea what that means

[vapid gorge]

just have a belt and split it 10 normally. If yo'ure feeding the right parts in it self balances

[indigo belfry]

well i didnt think about that

[elfin nebula]

thats a manifold
https://i.imgur.com/R0xvB6v.jpeg

and thats an actual balancer
https://i.imgur.com/lNu3NLM.jpeg

[vapid gorge]

manifolds are simpler and more compact and take less time. They do have a 'spin up time' for hte machines to get to 100% , but you can avoid the spin up by just putting some items in at the start by hand.

Load balancing is ALSO fully efficient, and it's fine to do

[elfin nebula]

manifolds basically send too much to the machines until they are full and cant take more than they use

[vapid gorge]

but a lot of people aren't aware you can manifold so just wanted to make sure you did know before you spend hours doing something you might not actually want

[elfin nebula]

doesnt work when the item amount is really low, like with nuclear power etc.
would take weeks to get everything filled

[vapid gorge]

hand filling is still fine there

[elfin nebula]

well, also extreme radiation

[vapid gorge]

and I think it's still on the order of 24hours?

yeah look, the only mechanical argument for load balancing is nuclear. I'm just going to wear a suit

[elfin nebula]

i can claculate that, wait

[vapid gorge]

might be 48hours. I checked ages ago I tihnk

[vapid gorge]

but yeah, short story is if you build things like this it works fine too https://i.imgur.com/R0xvB6v.jpg , you never need to load balance - which is what you were trying to do

[elfin nebula]

but balancing nuclear is easy. manufacturer produces 0.6 rods, power plant burns 0.2
perfect 1 to 3 split

[vapid gorge]

depends if you're doing it on location and how you want to set up your buildings. For example even if I was making rods next to the reactors I wouldn't want to make them right next to them.

but you're right, if you want your manus to be right next to the reactors it's very simple

[elfin nebula]

here as schematic with one top row of smelters and two lines of constuctors

didnt want to do my copper sheets larger

[vapid gorge]

Gotta steam them sheets though 😄

[elfin nebula]

its just for that

[vapid gorge]

why do you need that much ammo xD

[elfin nebula]

because we somehow thought 140 smokeless powder is a nice idea

[vapid gorge]

I'm going to try to put together a small plan where I can, very locally, make a very small amount of just about all amo/bomb types. And just let it build up over hours

like 5 bullets pm sort of thing

... you know I've never even tried making rod gun ammo automated. Can you even do that?

You can right?

[elfin nebula]

hm?

[mystic moon]

Yes

[elfin nebula]

btw, thats the thing i built

[mystic moon]

Rebar is fully automateable

[vapid gorge]

thought it must have been, I just never bothered looking at it

[elfin nebula]

and now dont want to redo anything and just work with the smokeless and sink ammo xD

[vivid surge]

@elfin nebula What is that your are using to plan?

[elfin nebula]

[frosty owl]

If you're referring to the production planner, that's SFTools ()

[vivid surge]

@frosty owl Yeah it is thanks, new one to me, @elfin nebula Sorry for the confusion should of been more specific in my asking.

[next pewter]

For compactness and modular expansion w belt capocity limitation, i often alternate/interweave injection and extraction on a belt. i rarely add an overflow or loopback,but i was wondering if that would improve or worsen the throughput?

Can't draw it now,but i will try w asciart if needed

Like,on a vertical manifold line

inject 30 steel ingots
< take 20 for pipe contstructor
inject another 30
< take 20
....
inject 30 till belt limit
extract 20
So i end up w an almost full belt at the end. In this case, loop back doesnt make sense?

If i extract more at each step than i produce there,though?
Now i just do 3-4 injects before staggering,but idk if loopback is OK too?

[vapid gorge]

Never loop back a manifold onto itself
Injection manifolds are essentially just the same number of manifolds you'd make anyway but all linked up

[wind spade]

Why not simply use what you have on a belt?

[vapid gorge]

none of the ones I've seen people build save any significant amouint of spce

[wind spade]

for your example you have 30 ingots and machines need 20
so merge two machines and split into three

[next pewter]

If all machines are pipe contructors, yes.
but i tend to swap machines from pipe to beam prod depending on what i need most at that moment.

But you're right, very limited amount of space is probably gained

[vapid gorge]

why swap? just let a ton of containers fill with parts. That sounds extremely obnoxious

[next pewter]

True, can overproduce too. Is easier i guess.

Used to tweak production for almost every tier/unlock, but can also just wait and let it build up,and meanwhile expand/build smth else.

[wind spade]

instead of swapping, build new

if you need more of X, chance is you're gonna need more of Y as well, so no reason to diminish Y production in favor of X

[next pewter]

So achually just add a few more constructors so that its balanced

[next pewter]

Well,i disagree for spaceparts.

I used to play w/o sinking 😉

then it is crucial not to overproduce

[wind spade]

sinking is major part of the game 🤷‍♂️

[next pewter]

Why?doesn't have to.

Try it once,its fun 😊

Only produce what you need.

[deft lichen]

you can produce what you need and sink overflow, and still have plenty of coupons

[next pewter]

Esp now,with U8 smart power breakers it is quite feasible

[next pewter]

Sure,you can. and its the default way to play, probably. But imagine what if you couldnt sink, or store in big storages,and would like not to have material backing up

[wind spade]

I'd rather have it back up 🤷‍♂️

doesn't hurt anything really

[next pewter]

Fair standpoint.

[frosty owl]

Except my feelings

[deft lichen]

...I played the game before sinks were added

seems like just extra trouble

[wind spade]

I technically did as well

[fierce ruin]

it hurts the satisfaction of seeing a constantly moving conveyor belt 😡

[oblique hollow]

constant movement is meh

i just wanna see full belt

[fierce ruin]

fair tbh

[dim spire]

I mean, due to the way their animations work, the -belt- is always moving 🙂

[fierce ruin]

fair point

i realize now that theres no issues with efficiency when conveyors back up because the miner (or whatever is backing up) stops using power once its topped out

[dim spire]

Yeah. They thankfully included "auto-shutdown" as part of the mechanism.

The only real efficiency argument you could make is "well, you're not producing as much as you could"

[frosty owl]

Well, the miner's efficiency goes down

[dim spire]

Not if it's consuming 0 power. Depends on your type of efficiencyl.

[restive timber]

I'm currently planning an oil factory for the blue crater, in hopes of never having to touch it again. I'm not sure about the ratio between rubber and plastic production. 500 Rubber / 1500 Plastic sound alright for reaching endgame with this factory?

Also, any recommandation on what to waste 550 excessive HOR on?

[dim spire]

POWAH

[restive timber]

I already have 600 Fuel planned in this factory 😭

Btw, this is my plan currently

[dim spire]

You're getting it from making plastic and rubber, right? What else are you gonna do with it? Pack it and sink it or make fuel out of it are the simplest. shrug

[oblique hollow]

you cant really know how much you will need.
That "in hopes of never having to touch it again" is likely to turn into "Crap, I'll have to make a second factory for rubber and plastic"

[restive timber]

That's fine with me. I'd just like to avoid having to touch this particular factory again for as long as possible

[brittle kayak]

Ye, my "this 2nd aluminum factory should be enough with the 1st one" turned into "crap, I'll still need to almost double the production".

Need over 4,800 ingots per min, currently producing just over 2,800.

[dim spire]

That's a fair gap.

[restive timber]

I mean, is there even a way to produce more from blue crater?

ok, I see that you can do more with the recycled recipe

[dim spire]

Back to the other question though. Rubber and Plastic produce HOF. HOF is good for making fuel, coated cable, or smokeless powder. If you're not trying to make cable or powder at the location, then make fuel. Sink the fuel or use the fuel in gennies.

[oblique hollow]

HOR*

[dim spire]

Yeah, I fat-fingered it twice.

[oblique hollow]

amazing combo

[dim spire]

Sink option seems most easily done with PEt Coke, no?

[restive timber]

I guess it'll impact plastic production a bit, but I'll sink packaged fuel

[oblique hollow]

yeah coke is the easiest thing to do

rather than packaging

[dim spire]

550 HOR with a dilution recipe is a lot of electricity though.

[oblique hollow]

or use one of the alts that make use of the heavy oil, like Coated Cable

[restive timber]

13.75 Refineries + 4 Awesome sinks for me currently. Could be better

[dim spire]

I meant it can produce a lot of electricity.

[restive timber]

Oh, you mean in a coal generator?

[oblique hollow]

ye

[restive timber]

ah, ops

[dim spire]

I was meaning HOR > DPF/BDF

[oblique hollow]

coal gens use 25/min coke

[restive timber]

At that point, I'll be worried if there's enough local water

1650 / 25 = 66. That's almost 3000 water

[dim spire]

10 overclocked extractors.

[restive timber]

I guess just using residual fuel will be easier

[true junco]

There is plenty enough water at the blue crater.

[shrewd zealot]

What would make more power, coal gens or tubrofuel with fuel generators

[elfin nebula]

not sure if serious question

[shrewd zealot]

Me?

[elfin nebula]

are there other questions? ^^

[shrewd zealot]

It is a serious question

[elfin nebula]

you can expect better stuff being later

[shrewd zealot]

I’m not sure and I’m not sitting at my computer rn

[elfin nebula]

so progression wont give you worse power gens

[wind spade]

that depends how much fuel/coal/whatever you give to each

[shrewd zealot]

Ok

[elfin nebula]

sure, huge coal power plant beats a tiny fuel one

[shrewd zealot]

Is there somewhere I could find the max amount of all the resources in the world?

[elfin nebula]

the wiki, the sftools defaults

now this channel

if wrong, blame greeny

[shrewd zealot]

Umm ok

The new one is at .gg right?

[elfin nebula]

yeah

[shrewd zealot]

Ok thanks

[elfin nebula]

https://satisfactory.wiki.gg/wiki/Resource_node#Types

if wrong, idk who to blame

what you also need is this
https://satisfactory.wiki.gg/wiki/Resource_Well#Types

[regal bobcat]

do you really need to do nuclear power? nuclear is seriously making my head hurt, i would much rather just do coal and oil 😩

[supple mural]

you dont need it

i think it might be less of a hassle than an equivalent oil setup

[main dirge]

Depends how big you build and how much you care for waste as well

Found for my 4:4:4:1/m space elevator factory that just using the default plastic/rubber recipe and turning HOR into fuel made it basically self-sufficient

But yeah a uranium setup is usually less hassle than equivalent fuel power bc fluids

[brittle kayak]

Nuclear power is relatively trivial if you just ship the waste to some far-off corner of the world and forget about it.

It's the recycling that's a nightmare to organize.

[main dirge]

Or just ship in aluminium and sink plutonium

[supple mural]

recycling isnt that bad

[sand epoch]

No. Tubro fuel is more than capable of powering everything. It just takes A LOT of generators

[supple mural]

at least turn it into plutonium waste instead so you dont need as many containers

[main dirge]

Tbh easier to just use regular fuel

[sand epoch]

Meh

[elfin nebula]

not by much. turbofuel is extremely easy to set up. its just large because of the ggenerators

[main dirge]

Less generators and a production line of like two steps

[supple mural]

diluted fuel in blenders is very powerful

[sand epoch]

Less gen means less power. And the goal is more power without nukes..

[main dirge]

Fair

[supple mural]

if you dont need the oil or dont need the power, fuel is fine

personally i would go turbofuel anyway because its more fun to say turbofuel

[main dirge]

Tbh not sure how you'd need the oil

So much of it

[supple mural]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[elfin nebula]

even large scale turbofuel is easy

thats basically just this

the box is the area you need for generators

approximated

[supple mural]

turbo blend fuel is like a 33% power increase over just diluted fuel i think

or 20%?

somewhere around there, with the point being that it's not necessary

[elfin nebula]

8100 fuel vs 4050 turbofuel
101 250 MW vs 135 000
1/3 increase

whats amazing

for not being much more complicated

[supple mural]

yup

[median heath]

Still a waste of sulfur imo.

[elfin nebula]

the question was removing nuclear, so no sulfur for that

so reuse it

[supple mural]

same amount of sulfur will get ya way more out of nuclear thats for sure

[median heath]

Removing nuclear??

[elfin nebula]

[median heath]

Why 😭

[supple mural]

some people dont like the subtle glow it gives their skin

[median heath]

But if that's the premise then yeah... Turbo Blend.

[elfin nebula]

let me recombine my calcs

so, when i remove my neculear and put that sulfur in the turbofuel calc, remodel stuff a bit, i get 9000 turbofuel
that are 2000 generators, being 300 GW, most suitable for everything you will ever do

so yeah, removing nuclear is possible

just really much fuel gens

[supple mural]

yeah, that's....

a lot

[elfin nebula]

my plan in addition to nuclear are just 900

actually even 2000 easily fit on the ocean

but its expensive to build. thats 20k heavy frames for example

alone for the gens

then this for the rest

[supple mural]

why so many fuel gennies?

[elfin nebula]

hm?

[supple mural]

when youre already going nuclear

[elfin nebula]

because we can

[supple mural]

i see

[half geyser]

Yeah you can do that

Technically you can infinitely expand your power grid forever

Because biomass hehe

In practice though it’s limited by the respawn rate of everything but oh well

Fuel plants should provide enough power to compete with nuclear though, I gotta say the only thing that nuclear has seems to be convenience imo

[median heath]

Was never doubting "can".
?? was about "why would you"

[half geyser]

Because you’re not getting irradiated

Quite convenient tbh

And I can’t be bothered to automate filters

[elfin nebula]

you set up nuclear once, then never visit again

so no radiation problems

[deft lichen]

just build the power plants on the other side of the world...?

[quick garnet]

Behold, more work for less efficiency

(That was my turbofuel setup before I unlocked the Blender)

[median heath]

How is it less efficient?

squinting unless you're just meaning the Packaged Fuel aspect.

[oblique hollow]

Diluted packaged just needs some more power and maybe space

What was it again, 5% more power?

[median heath]

I'm assuming that is it. Because base Turbo recipe is not less efficient.
It's just efficient in a different manner.

[quick garnet]

Efficiency in relation to the sulphur used. With turbo blend you get 1.6x turbofuel for the same amount of sulphur

[median heath]

Base Turbo is the most oil-efficient.
Turbo Blend is the most sulfur-efficient.

So they are both efficient. Just in different ways.

[oblique hollow]

If you have sulfur concerns, consider not doing turbo 😂

[median heath]

☝️

Use it to make Steel 😉

[oblique hollow]

Or Aluminum, shameless Instant Scrap Plug

[median heath]

I'm totally using that all up in Crater Lakes once they release their fix for mk3 pures.

[oblique hollow]

Crater leakes is neat

Should build there more often

[swift robin]

crater lakes is where my coal power ends up usually. it's just too perfect for it

and then later on i can divert it to aluminum

[raven path]

What do you use to make those grids?