math-and-meta

[rustic patio]

ooor ai limiters?

nooo fuck i did all my math wrong

[wind spade]

that's why you should use online tools

[rustic patio]

i do!

im using this satisfactory tools thing, its very cool

whoever made that can be very proud of themselves :p

[rustic patio]

https://u6.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=STsfDlLUppjo7rwM7RyO

no leftovers

[frosty owl]

I just always have a sink at the end of my sushi lines, so adding one more item to it makes no practical difference to me ^^ (other than less throughput aviable)

[rustic patio]

i might make a trash train

that just picks sftuff up i dont like and carries it around if i ever need it

do u think the items i chose are good?

@misty solstice

lets talk here

[misty solstice]

alrighty

[rustic patio]

okay so, the diagram u sent should work perfectly, but i feel like it isnt as elegant as it could should be

i dont like it because its so incredibly intertwined, everything feeds into everything

[misty solstice]

Yeah, I was just trying to figure out how the alternate recipes are supposed to interact

[rustic patio]

its like a spiderweb instead of a tree

[rustic patio]

unnecessarily

[misty solstice]

I actually did basically a 3rd of this just now, up to 8 blenders making 800 fuel. For my new power plant

[rustic patio]

what are you unsure about?

[misty solstice]

well the bit after you make the fuel from the HOR; getting to plastic/rubber

since I now need a lot of both

[rustic patio]

okay so

basically, you can use fuel to duplicate rubber and plastic

1 rubber + 1 fuel = 2 plastic

1 plastic + 1 fuel = 2 rubber

this way you can turn fuel one to one into plastic or rubber

makes sense?

[misty solstice]

yes I think so, and the diluted fuel recipe seems to be the best way to go from Oil to Fuel

which explains how you can get so much from the same amount of crude

[rustic patio]

it is, you first use the Heavy oil residue alt recipe to turn oil directly into heavy oil residue and then you turn that into fuel with the diluted fuel recipe

what the diagram then does is rather complicated

the heavy oil residue alt recipe gives resin

you can turn resin 2 to 1 into rubber

[misty solstice]

So, there is definitely no reason not to use Blenders for the diluted fuel then?

[rustic patio]

the diagram turns resin into rubber, and then it uses that rubber in combination with fuel to make a lot of plastic

[rustic patio]

nope, no reason to not use blenders

the only reason you might use the packaged version is if you dont have blenders yet

[misty solstice]

okay cool

[rustic patio]

which is completely unnecessary if you want rubber too

what i do is way simpler

i make the fuel, and as a side effect i get resin too of course

i turn it into rubber, but i leave it at that, no more complications

im done with that rubber and put it in my train

now i just have a bunch of fuel, how will i turn this into rubber or plastic without anything to start the process?

simple, i loop it

lets say i want to turn it all into plastic

i have three refineries, one is the recycled rubber recipe and the other two are the recycled plastic recipe

i only feed in fuel, nothing else. the first refinery turns the fuel into rubber, the second two turn the rubber (with more fuel) into plastic

then i use a smart splitter to feed the plastic back into the first refinery

the only disadvantage is that you need to seed it, you need to put a little bit of rubber or plastic in at the beginning for it to work

but once it runs you only have to feed in fuel

[misty solstice]

yeah that makes sense

I'll try building that out tonight

[barren elm]

Yeah blender diluted fuel is one of the rare cases of one recipe being flat out superior to another

The other case being casted screws, which while the base recipe still has uses, in a direct 1:1 comparison to the base recipe, casted screws is superior

[misty solstice]

oh I don't know if I have that one. Steel Screw really helped when I got it though

I'll have to check that out

oh nice, directly from ingots to screws

[barren elm]

To be clear I only meant the base recipe compared to cast screws recipe

Steel screws is great

The base recipe ends up seeing use again with the steel rod -> screws combo, which is the most resource-efficient way of making screws

[misty solstice]

oh, I didn't know Steel Rod was a thing either

that makes sense

[rustic patio]

@misty solstice i made a little video where i show my setup, maybe thatll help. ill send u the link when its uploaded

[wind spade]

not really, complexity is a metric as well

[barren elm]

Would you not agree that the blender recipe is also less complex?

[wind spade]

oh I meant diluted fuel vs normal fuel

DPF is better earlier when you don't have blenders 🤷‍♂️

[barren elm]

Ah, yeah

[wind spade]

not sure how is it power-wise

[rustic patio]

what do ya'll think about this nuclear recipe chain?
https://u6.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=YbHf8Fmw7wjwUcywhlnp

btw, @misty solstice https://youtu.be/adh8CXngiTI

[barren elm]

I don't personally like using copper alloy ingot, and prefer pure copper, but it's all opinion

[rustic patio]

copper alloy is a lot more power and space efficient, and i dont think ill ever run out of copper or iron

especially since i use steel for everything and i only use coal for steel and i only use iron for wire with the iron wire

so the only use for copper i have is quickwire and copper sheets

[barren elm]

Like I said, all opinion, I just throw all my raw resources into a big pure recipe farm

Pure copper is definitely the weakest pure recipe though

[rustic patio]

i dont think it would work for me because i have to be careful when it comes to frames

i want to build big, so i try building with frames in mind from the start

[barren elm]

If you mean fps, pure recipes (not copper) require far fewer machines

[rustic patio]

no they dont

[barren elm]

Ok which one do you think doesn't

[rustic patio]

copper alloy makes 100/min

[barren elm]

Yeah like I said, not copper

[rustic patio]

pure makes 37.5/min

[rustic patio]

still wrong

the default one makes 15/min and the pure one 12/min

plus pure needs more power, so you need more power buildings

plus pure needs water, so you need more water buildings

[barren elm]

If you're making 50.4 uranium fuel rods per min, you're not worried about power

[rustic patio]

i will use pure for caterium and quartz, but only because they are limited

[barren elm]

Now do limestone, iron, quartz etc

[deft lichen]

you're...running out of limestone?

[rustic patio]

we're talking about space efficiency

[rustic patio]

okay, those three are actually faster at producing

but im not sure if they are more fps efficient

dont know if refineries take more or less cpu power

[barren elm]

I don't think anyone knows

[rustic patio]

however if we look at space, the pure ones are worse

[barren elm]

Tho it'd probably be pretty easy to benchmark

[rustic patio]

*fps efficiency

i think ill stay with default most of the time, having to bring in water all the time is soooo annoying 😩

[barren elm]

Yeah it's definitely something you need to plan your whole build around

[rustic patio]

its funny, imk going to try goiing from fuel to max nuclear lol

[frosty owl]

@rustic patio Alright, done. Since I find the subject interesting I'll add my 2 cents too...
Pure recipes that have higher output than all other recipes for the same item: Pure Iron, Pure Quartz, Wet Concrete
All other recipes have versions that outputs more ingots per machine (ppm ofc) than the "Pure" counterpart.

Additional 2 cents: to be more precise about which recipe would have the worse effect on FPS, one should also account for their difference in inputs. Pure recipes are more efficient, thus require less input items which can mean less input beltwork for the same output. Some pure recipes differ entirely by the number of inputs, making the comparison even more skewed in this sense (eg: pure caterium is slower than standard and requires both ore and water where alloys recipes still need 2 input items like their pure counterparts). So, all in all, there might be too many nuances to make a "proper" analysis on this

[rustic patio]

Wow that's a lot of text

Thanks

I think I'll go with the pure on quartz and caterium and sometimes concrete

I'll def use alloy for copper, and I don't think it's worth it for iron

[frosty owl]

Concrete is absolutely worth it. The output is just too good

Also bolted recipes
Bolted is love, bolted is life

[primal flicker]

I like pure quartz, wet concrete, alloy copper, default caterium, no iron. Because I'd rather alt iron ingots out of my production plan with steel recipes.

[rustic patio]

Yes but you could use pure iron with steel

:)

[primal flicker]

Bolted uses more resources, more buildings, more space, and more energy than adhered. I'm having trouble imagining a good use case for bolted plates.

[rustic patio]

I use adhered

I love oil 🤤

[frosty owl]

Only one of those points is true.
Who can guess which it is?!

[primal flicker]

Coke steel. Or default.

[frosty owl]

Wait, dunno about energy though, so let's make it 1(maybe 2)

[primal flicker]

?

[deft lichen]

bolted alts are plain useless, for your argument I care not 😛

[frosty owl]

And what recipes are used (along the production chain) to make that comparison? ^^

[rustic patio]

The ones with least WP

[deft lichen]

you know, the wiki analysis is flawed

[rustic patio]

How?

[deft lichen]

it picks a "best" option and uses it everywhere moving forward

[frosty owl]

Which, guess what, don't always lead to either the least footprint nor the least machine count (that's nearly the same) :P

[rustic patio]

Okay?

[deft lichen]

while trying to present itself as objective, it is not, the results are biased and thus incorrect

[rustic patio]

If it shows all possible combinations it's useless

It has to make a choice

[deft lichen]

but there is no "best", that's the problem

[rustic patio]

The facts it shows are objective, it does not claim one recipe to be better than another

[frosty owl]

Point being: if one wants to make a point about two recipes having better or worse footprint, they should be using ALL the recipes in the production chain accordingly

[deft lichen]

I would say it does, smaller number = better. the most small numbers = best

[primal flicker]

I would assume using steel screws. Can't imagine using anything else, frankly.

[rustic patio]

So you're the one being subjective, not the wiki

The wiki just shows the numbers, it's up to you how to use them

[deft lichen]

but how do you know the wiki is right

(fyi I edit the wiki so I want to make sure the information there is correct)

[rustic patio]

I trust the open source process

If there's a mistake it'll surely be noticed eventually

[deft lichen]

the wiki analysis has been made by one person 💀

[craggy quartz]

is satisfactory turing complete

[rustic patio]

Sure there could be some mistakes here and there, but it'd be ridiculous to claim that I know better than everyone that checked the wiki

[rustic patio]

And has anyone found a mistake in it yet?

[frosty owl]

Eg: WHO would find it convenient to use steel rods to make screws to make bolted products?
Probably a production planner that knows that yes, that is the most resource efficient way to make screws. Definetly not someone in-game who wants to save on machines ^^

WE ARE THE SOURCE, @rustic patio

[primal flicker]

Likewise steel coated plates from coke steel or default steel recipe. The wiki numbers would use coke recipe.

[deft lichen]

yes, I did, because to me it seems biased 🤷

[rustic patio]

I mean a mistake. Not a disagreement....

Disagreeing with the methods is not the same as finding a mistake in how those methods are applied

[deft lichen]

😭

[frosty owl]

There have been quite a few over time, yes

[rustic patio]

Cool, if I tried it myself I'd probably make more than there are in the wiki right now

[frosty owl]

I mean... Ondar would know if he accessed the history of wiki edits, wouldn't he? ^^

[deft lichen]

anyone can view the history of any page

[craggy quartz]

i dislike adding complexity when there are enough resources nearby that it's not needed for the build

[primal flicker]

Now you're going to make me waste time on SFTools comparing recipe combinations. Just for RIPs.

[craggy quartz]

hence why i don't like using coke steel ingots

[rustic patio]

Solid steel is superior

Use coal for steel and coke for aluminuminimumjium

[craggy quartz]

yeah i use solid steel

[tropic hawk]

What did I walk in on?

[primal flicker]

Piping the HOR in was annoying when I tried it. But it DID have the desired end result. Resolved to use default steel where crude is annoyingly far away.

[frosty owl]

You might find this comparison interesting #math-and-meta message

[craggy quartz]

and in terms of the pure recipes it just depends on what resources are nearby
pure iron ingots rarely make sense due to how common iron ore is
but i needed a lot of caterium in my last build so i used pure caterium ingots for that

[deft lichen]

@rustic patio there's been an effort to replace the wiki analysis with written descriptions, which wouldn't try to do the impossible of trying to compare entire recipe chains
it would also make it more accessible to new players, and we could link it to people posting their MAM screenshots
it's not being implemented yet, but I'd love to hear feedback (from anybody really)

[rustic patio]

I still like the recipe chain comparison, having more info doesn't hurt

[craggy quartz]

even though setting up 52 caterium refineries was painful

[rustic patio]

As long as you don't blindly follow it it can be useful

[craggy quartz]

at least they feed 1:1 into quickwire constructors

[deft lichen]

you have no idea how many people DO just blindly follow 😭

[rustic patio]

I'm sure many do, and that's not good

But I'm aware how the WP work and I account for the inconsistency when choosing a recipe

[deft lichen]

I can understand that the data is valuable, do you think it'd be sufficient to move it to a separate page so that you could still find it by searching for it?

[rustic patio]

I go against them very often because of the choices I made, yet I still think they're a useful tool in some situations

[deft lichen]

if the data is too hard to read for people, they don't find what they're looking for

[rustic patio]

Yea sure, I think it'd be great if the noobs were kept safe from their inexperience

[primal flicker]

I fiddle with allowed defaults/alts quite a bit before I accept the result as a recommended plan that I'm free to modify. 乁⁠(⁠ ⁠•⁠_⁠•⁠ ⁠)⁠ㄏ

[deft lichen]

something akin to this, I guess https://satisfactory.fandom.com/wiki/Hard_Drive/Alternate_recipe_analysis
we'd gather the tables on one page

thank you for your insight, I'll definitely keep it in mind

[rustic patio]

No problem, I totally agree that it's a horrible idea to choose an alt just by WP, but I feel like it can be a valuable tool to help in choosing one. Something something hammer and nails

[tropic hawk]

WP is weighted points, right?

[primal flicker]

Yes

[craggy quartz]

if you just go by max resource efficiency every calculator is gonna tell you to make a hundred refineries for pure iron ingots which is unnecessary

[frosty owl]

Run a factory plan with the recipes mentioned and have a proper comparison between the stitched and bolted routes

[primal flicker]

Go by what feels satisfying and is manageable for your play style. That's how I arrived at my personal list of preferred alts. Getting rid of iron ingots is as much a flavor choice as a rational one.

[frosty owl]

Well.. They're necessary... For efficiency

[tropic hawk]

I'm working on evaluating a nuclear plant to be as efficient in RP/MW to see the most effecient production chain

[rustic patio]

That's why you don't let the calculator choose your recipes 💪😼

[frosty owl]

Going full steel is also FPS-friendly overall.
@laura.#4517 should take notes

[rustic patio]

What's RP?

[rustic patio]

Already decided to do that :)

[primal flicker]

FPS impact factored largely in how I weighted alts.

[frosty owl]

And yet you stitched

[tropic hawk]

Sorry, I got used to RePo for Weighted Resource points and my brain short circuited. Meant WP

[primal flicker]

Adhered.

[craggy quartz]

i use a calculator and then tweak it until its something reasonable
i have no idea what's more fps and how bad saves can get but i am doing ok so far i guess

[rustic patio]

My list of rules:

All coal is for steel
Use steel wherever possible
All wire is made out of iron
All quickwire is fused
All coke is for aluminium
Every oil will produce 3 rubber/plastic

[primal flicker]

I haven't gotten to aluminum yet. Will have to make those comparisons soon.

[craggy quartz]

sometimes i use iron wire sometimes i use the default recipe, usually depends on how much nearby copper there is

[tropic hawk]

That's perfectly fine. Once you finish learning basic game principles and advance to optimizing gameplay, then you should start worrying about thay

[primal flicker]

I like fused wire, personally.

Fused wire/quickwire is an easy setup if the Cat/Cu are near each other.

[rustic patio]

Imo coke is superior for aluminum, partially because unlike coal, it has no other big uses, and partially because it gets the most aluminium out of bauxite

[craggy quartz]

yeah depends on caterium availability

[rustic patio]

And I like getting the most out of my bauxite

[primal flicker]

I have a feeling I'll be using coal because coke gets so much steel out of each foundry, in contrast.

[rustic patio]

Unless it requires silica

I'm a sloppy pure person

[craggy quartz]

i kind of regret having 52 caterium refineries for my recent nuclear power plant build

[rustic patio]

If you're sloppy default, you're weird

cries in 396 refineries for oil

[primal flicker]

The alternatives being..?

[tropic hawk]

Preach it.

[craggy quartz]

endgame just feels like refinery spam lol

i hate how big they are

[rustic patio]

(it'll increase by another 144 soon

[rustic patio]

Blueprints!!!!

[tropic hawk]

Oh don't worry, I have over 200 just for copper.

[primal flicker]

Same 😒

[craggy quartz]

refineries dont even fit in blueprints do they

[rustic patio]

Yes they do

[tropic hawk]

They do I think...

[craggy quartz]

oh i thought they were too tall

[rustic patio]

Make a double blueprint, one on top for refineries and decoration and one for bottom feeding logistics

[craggy quartz]

whats decoration

i dont do that

[rustic patio]

https://youtu.be/adh8CXngiTI
Look at my setup, I used one blueprint to first place the floor and bottom feeding logistics, and another blueprint to place the refineries and decorations

[primal flicker]

"aesthetic" 🤔⁉️🤷

[tropic hawk]

That title seems sus

[wind spade]

"don't blindly follow youtubes" should be pinned and wrote every 10 minutes

[craggy quartz]

ive never seen a youtuber for this game

[wind spade]

the amount of issues with what I've seen in some youtuber videos is... a lot

[primal flicker]

MYOM

[rustic patio]

It was in response to someone posting an oil diagram popularised by a Youtuber

[craggy quartz]

all my builds are default colours on a single flat foundation, am i doing something wrong

[rustic patio]

I made this video to show them my (superior) setup

[primal flicker]

You use foundations? Whoa...

[tropic hawk]

What was the chart? (Or rather the process list?)

[craggy quartz]

typing in the quick search is obnoxious

[tropic hawk]

Nope.

[rustic patio]

It suggested feeding rubber from resin into recycling

[craggy quartz]

idk i just dont really know how to do decoration i guess

[wind spade]

which is very much suggested

because that way it kickstarts itself

[primal flicker]

Some of the SFT plans get ridiculous with recycling rubber and plastic both into each other at precise ratios. No thanks.

[rustic patio]

Why?

[tropic hawk]

You can... It doesn't really do anything in the end if you don't.

[wind spade]

and if it fails for some reason it can start itself again

[rustic patio]

It'll start itself with my setup too

[tropic hawk]

Don't use SFT for recycling. Use a spreadsheet for that

[rustic patio]

And mine is simpler and more easily expanded

[craggy quartz]

i thought the process was oil -> heavy oil residue -> residual rubber -> recycled plastic

[wind spade]

you just feed it all and overflow 🤷‍♂️

[tropic hawk]

What's your set up flow?

[craggy quartz]

that's what i did anyway

[wind spade]

the process is oil -> HOR -> (recycling rubber/plastic loop)

[tropic hawk]

Yep, and the HOR > DF > Recycled

[primal flicker]

Overflow Sinks are always the real MVP

[craggy quartz]

ok good

[rustic patio]

If I want to make rubber I have one refinery for plastic and two for rubber, the plastic refinery feeds the rubber refinery and the rubber refineries feed the plastic refinery with a smart splitter

Once it gets going it'll self start again no matter what

[wind spade]

how, if you don't feed residual rubber to recycling loop?

[rustic patio]

And you need to input nothing but fuel, so easier logistics

[rustic patio]

*self start once stopped

That's what I meant

[tropic hawk]

No it won't...

[rustic patio]

Yes it will?

[wind spade]

I mean "it starts itself from a zero state"

[tropic hawk]

Not without external input... Or did I miss something?

[wind spade]

(so all machines empty)

[craggy quartz]

i had issues with resin manifolds not feeding the refineries in time and the fuel outputs getting clogged, but after a few flushes i think it stopped clogging

[rustic patio]

Once it's full it'll start again when supplied with more fuel and power

[wind spade]

that's not what I mean

[rustic patio]

And it won't ever fully empty because smart splitter

[tropic hawk]

We are saying when empty how will it start itself

[wind spade]

I mean "when everything is empty, it can start itself"

[rustic patio]

Because I wasn't talking to you

[rustic patio]

It doesn't start itself from the beginning

[tropic hawk]

Me and Greeny are saying the same thing

[rustic patio]

You have to put one stack of rubber or plastic in

[wind spade]

well that's not what Nemo meant either

[rustic patio]

Me: "it'll self start once stopped"
Nemo: "no it won't"

[wind spade]

which is why that youtuber suggested feeding plastic to the loop

[rustic patio]

Why?

[wind spade]

because it'll self-start from zero state

[tropic hawk]

Right. Whereas with a residual feed, it will automatically start itself when empty, and when it gets full once the outputs are relieved it will keep going

[tropic hawk]

Most times when factories stop it's because of input lack, not output lack.

[rustic patio]

once it is full you dont ever need to put anything in again, having to put a bit of rubber in once is worth it to me in exchange for way easier and simpler logistics and less belt work

and its way easier to expand

its a tradeoff, like everything, but it es worth it in my opinion

does that make sense?

[wispy tiger]

Laura's setup works because it never outputs all of it's rubber/plastic, only the excess

[rustic patio]

exactly! thanks

its bullet proof once it gets going

[tropic hawk]

And is that different than a system that feeds residual into the recycling loop to jumpstart it?

[wispy tiger]

Slightly

[wind spade]

the other setup is bulletproof forever

even if it wasn't ever going

[rustic patio]

i know, you're missing the point

my setup has advantages too, you're ignoring them

[wispy tiger]

It's not significantly better, but it does mean I can spend my resin on fabric instead

[craggy quartz]

im going to nod and pretend i understand

[tropic hawk]

I'm asking if it has advantages different than a residual fed loop

[tropic hawk]

I can try to help you understand if you let me know what you don't understand

[rustic patio]

yes, the advantage being you're free to do what you want with your resin, you need to do less math, and it is easily expandable, and you need to do way less belt work

the easily expandable thing is the biggest advantage to me

i can just add more sections, because it is self contained

it simply takes fuel and outputs rubber or plastic, thats it

and it is simpler!

[tropic hawk]

Whereas for recycled loops you can still expand then anyway, and do slightly less math and you just don't have the opportunity to make fabric?

[rustic patio]

uh, u do more math with them, and its harder to expand

[tropic hawk]

Not if you do your belts properly

[rustic patio]

because its not selfcontained

[wispy tiger]

Both are recycled loops, one just doesn't factor a residual process into it

[craggy quartz]

i just stacked all my refineries in one place is this bad

[wind spade]

both are self-contained

and "expandability" usually means "copy the setup"

[tropic hawk]

Is it messy? Slightly. Is it bad? Not at all

[rustic patio]

which you can do with mine, and not with the other...

[craggy quartz]

well i had issues with manifolds not feeding fast enough before outputs got clogged

with fluids

[wind spade]

you can do that with both 🤷‍♂️

[rustic patio]

lets say i want to turn 25% of my rubber production into plastic production, how would i do that with the other setup?

[wind spade]

both are self-contained

[tropic hawk]

That's duplication. I was talking about literally slapping on more refineries instead of making another module.

[rustic patio]

?

is it possible to do that without changing beltwork?

[tropic hawk]

Run the numbers of how much rubber you make, then figure out how much plastic you can support, then build it. It's not rocket science

[oblique hollow]

id say no

[tropic hawk]

Manifolds my dear friend.

[rustic patio]

so you need to change the buildi.ng

you dont need to with my setup, you just swap the recipes around

[tropic hawk]

You would need to add more refineries. That's it.

[oblique hollow]

if you sushi that is

[rustic patio]

no, i dont mean adding...

[wind spade]

usually people build things that are already for use, not "I'm gonna prebuild stuff and change it later"

[rustic patio]

i mean changing, going from 100 rubber and 50 plastic to 50 rubber and 100 plastic

[wind spade]

see above

[tropic hawk]

Why do you want to hurt yourself that way?

[rustic patio]

its funny how u refuse to answer my question

the answer for the diagram is no, yoou need to change beltwork

[oblique hollow]

we are talking about recycling, right?

[rustic patio]

but in my setup i just need to switch two recipes around

[rustic patio]

i dont, its super easy the way i did it

whiich is good, because i made too much plastic and need more rubber

[tropic hawk]

Yep

[wispy tiger]

Laura, does your recycling setup sort plastic and rubber between the recyclers so you can change your ratio?

[tropic hawk]

So you are doing more planning because you didn't plan right before?

[rustic patio]

i have 20 modules, each can be switched from rubber to plastic at will

[oblique hollow]

how so? do you mix the output on one belt?

and then use smart splitters?

[tropic hawk]

You mean by flipping a switch or by changing the recipes manually?

[rustic patio]

changing the recipes, and not having to rebuild anything

[rustic patio]

self contained modules that depend only on fuel input

[wispy tiger]

Lmao that's great I didn't even think to do that

[oblique hollow]

yes, but again, how is it belted

"self contained module" tells me absolutely nothing

[tropic hawk]

So by doing more work because you didn't plan ahead?

[wind spade]

how do you that without changing beltwork? if you change from recycled plastic to recycled rubber, you have wrong items on belts

[tropic hawk]

They do multiple small sets of 2:1 refineries that feed each other and take the excess from belts and use that as output

[rustic patio]

i just disable the input and wait until all the items are in the machines, then i just change the recipes

[wispy tiger]

Smart splitter inputs, right?

[tropic hawk]

You stop input and wait until input is full?

[rustic patio]

the only input into the system is fuel...

[oblique hollow]

this makes no sense so far, i cant envision it

[tropic hawk]

There would still be incorrect items on belts

[wispy tiger]

Nah

[oblique hollow]

images or im not buying the idea

[wind spade]

which still doesn't explain how plastic input changes to rubber input

[rustic patio]

okay, give me a sec

silver gets it

[wispy tiger]

You can stop the refinery input from the smart splitter and wait for the belt to clear

Then you change recipe and enable the new input

[oblique hollow]

ive been asking this entire time if smart splitters were used

[wind spade]

so you need mixed belts?

[tropic hawk]

So you need to change twice as many buildings because you planned improperly?

[rustic patio]

no mixed belts

[wind spade]

then I call bs

[oblique hollow]

then it doesnt work

[wispy tiger]

No mixed belts????

[oblique hollow]

you cant change recycled rubber to recycled plastic without adjusting the input smart splitters too

and for that you need mixed belts

or idk, 2 belts

with smart splitters set to output or not output

but thats just like adding or removing belts manually

[rustic patio]

there are no mixed belts

[oblique hollow]

right so your only choice is to basically turn an entire module from rubber to plastic

[rustic patio]

yes!

and i have 20

[wispy tiger]

Aaaah

[oblique hollow]

that seems tedious tbh

[rustic patio]

thats quite fine control over what i want imo

what part of it is tedious?

[tropic hawk]

If you want to make a recycling plant that switches from mainly producing plastic to producing rubber, the best way to do that is to produce 2 set ups for recycling loops and split the fuel between them and use power switches to control which one is runnig

[rustic patio]

i dont

that wasnt my goal

it is just a coincidental benefit

[wind spade]

how does the left change to right?

[oblique hollow]

waiting for machines to fill and then switching recipes doesnt work anyway since switching recipes makes machine start with an empty inventpry

so you will need to manually prefill them again

[rustic patio]

i never said i would do that, not once

[oblique hollow]

what did i read above then

[rustic patio]

where?

[oblique hollow]

#math-and-meta message

[tropic hawk]

Then what was your goal

[rustic patio]

making a robust, simple, easily expandable recycling system that can be scaled up or down based on demand

[tropic hawk]

So not accounting for your future plans until they happen then doing a bandaid fix?

[oblique hollow]

you know

you could just make a whole bunch of refineries next to each other and turn some off if you dont need them right now

saves you some time

[tropic hawk]

That's what I suggested

[oblique hollow]

compared to waiting for the system to restart after you switch recipes

[rustic patio]

try switching around the recipes in the diagram i posted earlier, its more difficult than in my setup...

[oblique hollow]

and the fuel can just... idk, go to overflow

and into fuel generators

[oblique hollow]

this one?

[rustic patio]

the diagram that isnt my setup

[oblique hollow]

idk where that is

[rustic patio]

i cant search by name wtf

this here

try going from 900 plastic to only 600 plastic and 300 rubber without having to rebuild machines or change beltwork

[oblique hollow]

ah, this one isnt ideal for switching

[rustic patio]

or lets say you're using 40% of the fuel for power right now and want to use it for rubber or plastic later

[oblique hollow]

i know something better i think

gimme a moment

[rustic patio]

with my setup i can just add the modules i need at the time

[wind spade]

people don't do that because people plan in advance

[rustic patio]

it is an advantage

why dont you admit it?

[wind spade]

advantage that you never use is not a real advantage

[rustic patio]

okay, my power situation then

40% of the fuel i am producing at the plant goes to fuel gens

i can take fuel in 5% increments and turn it into rubber, or plastic

by simply adding another module

i can easily expand my production as necessary

[wind spade]

well people build power systems separate usually

[rustic patio]

again, it is an advantage. you might say it doesnt come in handy often and it isnt a big advatange, but it is one

and the nice thing is, if i want to in the future i can easily reroute the oil to my fuel gens again

with the resin setup you will be wasting resin if you dont supply enough fuel

with my setup not, because the resin is seperate and independant of fuel

so in an emergency, if i need to go back to fuel for some reason, my production will be less impacted

[oblique hollow]

same idea, but now they are all next to each other and you just cross-enable them via the standby switch

[rustic patio]

and again, something you have completely ignored, is that my setup is not as intertwined as the diagram

feeding less machines into eachother in a row reduces complexity and i think is a good thing

so you have all these benefits, small as theyy may be, and the only drawback is that you have to put in one stack of rubber, once

[frosty owl]

Iron wire is terrible for FPS. Why not fused Wire?

[rustic patio]

i love quickwire

[oblique hollow]

fused wire

not fused quickwire

[frosty owl]

Well, also that one, but still

[rustic patio]

i know

i dont want to use fused wire because i want to use my caterium for fused quickwire...

[frosty owl]

Why do you fear running out of Caterium, do you have maximized plans for it?

[rustic patio]

i heard its rare so im hoarding it like a dragon

[oblique hollow]

well its not that rare

since fused wire and fused quickwire have the same inputs, i always make them next to each other

[frosty owl]

I strongly suggest trying some maximized production plans on SFTools to see how much quickwire you actually need for your goals (even a rough estimate is good enough)
Based on that, you can resize your worries appropriately

[rustic patio]

but i like roleplaying as smaug 🥺

[oblique hollow]

my mixed fused wire/quickwire plant

[rustic patio]

ur right though, i should

sushi, do you at least see the appeal in my design?

[oblique hollow]

copper is just as valuable as caterium in this case

[frosty owl]

I mean, I'm all down for saving quickwire too, but Iron wire is just so bad on the FPS :/

[oblique hollow]

also iron wire bad numbers

ewie

[frosty owl]

I've got some chat to scroll through... I'll get there 😅

[rustic patio]

oh btw @tropic hawk i found another advantage

in my design all things are super super super corpartmentalised

or however that is spelled

[oblique hollow]

compartmentalised?

[tropic hawk]

Compartmentalized

[mellow mortar]

Umm im just starting with nuclear energy and im wondering how far the radiation of this storage would go.

[rustic patio]

12 refineries feed 10 blenders that feed 36 refineries

so it is super easy to diagnose problems

[oblique hollow]

proably a few hundred meters if full

[rustic patio]

if i find a feeding problem later in the loop i know exactly what set of refineries/blenders has to be responisble

[tropic hawk]

100 ISCs should be enough

[rustic patio]

things dont mix, they are separated

[oblique hollow]

honestly i find mixed belt recycling setups fun too

[rustic patio]

this separation was key to achieving 100% efficiency, i doubt i would have been able to iron out all the mini mistakes otherwise

[oblique hollow]

i can just play around with the overclocking sliders

and it works

[rustic patio]

every single one of my 609 machines has 100% uptime

the power graph is perfectly smooth. i dont think i wouldve been able to achieve this with the other design

[oblique hollow]

i assume you have seperate grids that have transportation and sinks connected to them?

since those always result in jagged power graphs

[rustic patio]

sinks are in the same grid, transportation is seperate

[tropic hawk]

I'm gonna say there is now way I can convince you that your system offers thing normal recycling loops don't, so I'm just gonna disengage

[mellow mortar]

its actually exactly 100 lol

[rustic patio]

so you wont admit that im right even on a single thing..?

you wont say that my system has even a single advantage?

kinda sad that u just ignore that, but okay

[oblique hollow]

ease of maintainance maybe

but im not a fan of maintainance anyway

[rustic patio]

my oil plant is directly connected to my fuel gens, so i can just disconnect it from the main grid to see power draw

well, not directly

its just "one loop closer"

because, it is all separated, i can turn on and off certain blocks of machines super easily

lets say theres a problem with my resin setup, i can turn it off and everything else just keeps running

i even have emergency sinks placed so that nothing gets clogged

[oblique hollow]

i dont put resin into my recycling stuff either, usually

[rustic patio]

and the emergency sinks are directly directly connected to the fuel gens so that they never turn off

[oblique hollow]

it just gets merged with the rubber output

(once the resin got turned into rubber of course)

[rustic patio]

ugh

[tropic hawk]

I pointed out that you are essentially not planning for the future and just doing band-aid fixes as it comes up, but like McGallon said, I'm not a fan of maintenance

[rustic patio]

i want to make HMFs, but for that i need power, but for that i need drones, but for that i need batteries

[oblique hollow]

why do you need drones for hmf

or rather, drones for power

[rustic patio]

i want to make 50.4 nuclear fuel rods per minute before i do my hmf setup

[oblique hollow]

ah, a basically max build

[tropic hawk]

You want to do max nuclear before HMF?

[rustic patio]

that wasnt my point at all. my point is that flexibility, wether you want it or not, is an advantage

[oblique hollow]

terrific

[rustic patio]

but you completely ignore that

and act like the tiny tiny tiny disadvantage is the worst thing ever

[oblique hollow]

thats gonna suck so much to do that without frames automated

[rustic patio]

i have frames automatzed

just not 80 per minute yet

[tropic hawk]

And I gave you a build that was significantly better, and was expandable and wouldn't require you to manually change anything except two switches total, which you ignored

[rustic patio]

i was talking about my build vs the diagram

and you still completely disagree on everything i say lol

i dont even know what build ur talking about, u didnt send any diagrams afaik

[oblique hollow]

diverging playstyles, you two will not find an agreement here lol

[rustic patio]

what advantages does it have over mine?

[tropic hawk]

No, I said you build two different plants, split the fuel/residual inputs between them and use power switches to control which is running

[rustic patio]

that requires twice the machines lol

no way im doing that, 609 is enough already

[tropic hawk]

You do t have to manually stock machines and baby sit them when swapping recipes, you don't have to manually change the settings on n machines

[rustic patio]

manually stock them once, and in the very vrey very rare case i want to swap recipes

sounds like a good tradeoff for not having to build everything twice

but you dont even admit that there is a tradeoff, thats what bothers me

[tropic hawk]

You asked for how to make recycled swappable and I advised. The best idea is to not do that in the first place.

[rustic patio]

if you said "both have advantages and disadvantages and i like doing it my way" i would have agreed and i wouyldnht have a problem with it

but you act like ur the diagram is superior in every way

[rustic patio]

i didnt

i simply pointed out that its possible in my setup and not in the diagram

[tropic hawk]

Sorry, you were insisting yours was better. My bad for using the default appeasement reply.

[rustic patio]

you just deflected any arguments i gave you by saying "i dont need that"

[tropic hawk]

As did you. You are saying "this is easier to expand" when you shouldn't need to expand in the first place if you actually think about the long game. You say "it's easier to swap production" when you shouldn't need to do that if you plan. You say "it's easier to fix problems" when you wouldn't need to IF YOU PLANNED IN ADVANCE. In other words having foresight entirely negates the pros of your building

[rustic patio]

LMAO "you shouldnt need to expand"

thats just hilarious

[tropic hawk]

If you plan in advance.

[rustic patio]

this game is all about expanding

[tropic hawk]

If you don't, then that's on you.

[oblique hollow]

theres a difference between "expand an existing production line" and
expand as in "make a new one"

[tropic hawk]

It's about advancing production. How you achieve that is up to you.

[oblique hollow]

expanding existing production lines sucks

usually

making new ones is easier most of the time

[rustic patio]

its funny how suddenly building with expansion in mind is suddenly bad

[rustic patio]

this is a special case though, i need fuel that i wont need soon and soon i will need plastic and rubber which i dont need now

[oblique hollow]

hence "usually"
if you have an actually expandable design, great

[wind spade]

if you just build for now and not for later, you never need to expand, you just make new factories, existing ones stay the way they are

[tropic hawk]

And I said you could do that. With the build I mentioned, but your build which is more than a hog on space is harder to expand with more steps

[rustic patio]

how does my build need more space?

the amount of machines is the same, and i put the machines as close togther as possible in my build (within a blueprint)

[tropic hawk]

You do seperate modules, my idea adds machines to the end of a line

[rustic patio]

greeny: "ur build is bad because its unnecessary if you just build for now and dont plan ahead"
nemo: "ur build is bad because its unnecessary if you just plan ahead"

[rustic patio]

okay, so you can expand in smaller steps

[oblique hollow]

seperate modules does not imply spatial seperation

[wind spade]

both is true

[oblique hollow]

you can just slap walls inbetween and it counts

[rustic patio]

that can be an advantage but it isnt in my case because i already know how much fuel i want to use

because, inspite your accusations, i planned ahead

[wind spade]

if you planned ahead you shouldn't need to swap recipes

[tropic hawk]

And yet "I produced too much rubber so I need to switch to plastic" did you really?

[rustic patio]

oh no, i made one mistake

i guess this proves that i didnt plan at all because i underestimated how much rubber id need

how does me being an idiot have anything to do with the way i arrange my machines?

why are you so deseprate to argue against me

[tropic hawk]

Because you should plan ahead and those plans should take into account what you need

[rustic patio]

sorry that i didnt plan out every recipe form the beginning of the game?

[tropic hawk]

Because you said your build was better than the residual loop. I'm saying it's not better.

[rustic patio]

im saying it has advantages

and that there are situatiions where it is better

[tropic hawk]

And I'm saying that if you plan ahead much of the advantages are irrelevant

[oblique hollow]

plan ahead is a mixed bag

[rustic patio]

"just do everything right and you wont make mistakes"

yea duh of course, having safety is still good

[oblique hollow]

"just overproduce" or "plan ahead by making a funny expandable design"?

[rustic patio]

wether you think the advantages outweigh the disadvantages is up to you, but denying that there are advantages feels almost insulting

[tropic hawk]

And it is. That's why my builds have redundancy systems like a residual feed in case of malfunction

[rustic patio]

the diagram is more fragile than the thing i built

[oblique hollow]

oooor you just use smart splitters which ensure it can never run out of material in the first place

the residual resin thing offers zero benefit over smart splitters with overflow settings

[rustic patio]

yes! it actulaly makes it more fragile!

because if the fuel part stops the resin stops

[oblique hollow]

not really

[rustic patio]

if its separate then the resin will keep going if the fuel stops

[oblique hollow]

if you handle overflow for fuel

[tropic hawk]

If the fuel part stops so does your system

[oblique hollow]

its all a big "if you do X then Y wont happen"

[rustic patio]

oh, got it the wrong way around oops

[oblique hollow]

more so "if fuel stops being consumed, resin will stop being made too"

[rustic patio]

if the resin stops the fuel part stops

not in my situation

[oblique hollow]

why would the resin stop tho

unless you have crude oil issues

that screws with everything anyway

[rustic patio]

i mean resin processing

a cut power line for example

[tropic hawk]

Nope. Resin is made from HOR. If the feed of resin is cut off that means HOR is not being made, ergo no fuel

[rustic patio]

stops the entire system in the diagram, not the way i built it

[rustic patio]

i dont mean the resin plow being cut off, i mean resin processing being cut off

[oblique hollow]

i guess the easiest answer is "overflow to sink"

[rustic patio]

and is a weakpoint, a small one, but it is one, that my system doesnt have

[rustic patio]

yes but it needs the resin to work

[tropic hawk]

So if a cable is cut because people made a mistake? Human error can fail your system too.

[rustic patio]

yes but mine can fail in one less way

which most would consider an advantage

[rustic patio]

if the resin stops being turned into rubber the system in the diagram fails, not mine

[tropic hawk]

So you just build a factory and walk away and don't check it whatsoever?

[oblique hollow]

they both have contingencies that do not make one system better than the other

[rustic patio]

it is objectively better in this regard because it has one less point of failure

stop trying to talk around it, thats a fact

[oblique hollow]

not using resin means you need to use smart splitters to theres always stuff in the refineries first

[tropic hawk]

And that's exactly my point. @rustic patio was claiming their system was better than residual feed. I'm claiming that it's not.

[rustic patio]

again its not what im claiming

[oblique hollow]

using resin means you need to make sure that part always has water and that heavy oil doesnt currently back up

[rustic patio]

i clarified this before already

[tropic hawk]

One second

[oblique hollow]

the answer is you are both wrong and its just trading one design with its requirements for another.

I see both as the same

[rustic patio]

no, i agree with you

i agree that both things have advantages and disadvantages

[tropic hawk]

#math-and-meta message

Sounds like it to me

[rustic patio]

yes, i said that back then, in part humorously

[oblique hollow]

its simply a net zero sum game

[rustic patio]

later i clarified what im arguing for

[oblique hollow]

both of these have requirements and drawbacks

[tropic hawk]

And where did you say that you were joking?

[rustic patio]

i clarified it, this is the fourth time i mention this clarification

[rustic patio]

nowhere

[oblique hollow]

and both already incorporate solutions to the drawbacks in their designs

[tropic hawk]

Mind pointing me where?

[oblique hollow]

meaning both designs are absolutely equal

[tropic hawk]

So how were others supposed to know?

[rustic patio]

Nemo: Because you said your build was better than the residual loop. I'm saying it's not better.
Laura: im saying it has advantages
and that there are situatiions where it is better
wether you think the advantages outweigh the disadvantages is up to you, but denying that there are advantages feels almost insulting

[rustic patio]

wether it was meant in a humorous way or not is irrelevant, i later clarified what i was arguing for

[oblique hollow]

im mixing between using the resin to start it and keeping it as seperate loops with smart splitters based on how i feel like

[rustic patio]

all im saying is that there are advantages, wether or not the outweigh the disadvantages is personal preference

[tropic hawk]

And in that context you are implying that it is better, as in American English you are saying it had "advantages over the previously mentioned system"

[rustic patio]

im saying it has advantages and disadavantages

and it is up to you to decide which weigh heavier

wether you think the advantages outweigh the disadvantages is up to you, but denying that there are advantages feels almost insulting

thats literally all im arguing for right now

but you continue being completely against it

[tropic hawk]

And I was pointing out that most advantages you listed were non-issues if you planned in advance.

[wind spade]

(or not pre-build for future)

[rustic patio]

again ur saying it has no advantages lol

"if you're a god you dont need a helmet"

[wind spade]

I don't see him saying that

[rustic patio]

the bad things it supposedly prevents arent actually bad things according to nemo, thus the advantage is null

[wind spade]

I see "it has advantage that you won't really make use of"

[tropic hawk]

1: I'm saying most.
2: if you think I'm saying all, then you are agreeing with me that if you plan in advance it has little to no advantages

[rustic patio]

what advantage do you agree with?

i havent heard you agree with me once in this entire conversation

[tropic hawk]

Mind listing them off?

[rustic patio]

the systems arent as intertwined
it is easier to expand with more oil
it is easier to expand when switching from using fuel for power to turning it into oil
it is robuster, if the resin processing stops the fuel processing still works
the recipes can be switched out in blocks
it requires less belts
it requires less math
the beltwork is simpler
the simple beltwork allows you to split it up into completely separate blocks that are easy to optimize

also, i feel like the blocky nature of it makes it easier to scale up too, because the belt and pipework falls into place naturally

[tropic hawk]

• plan ahead
• plan ahead
• plan ahead
• do a basic quality check
• plan ahead
• outright false
• maybe
• not really.
• not if you plan ahead
• no accounting for taste.

[rustic patio]

lmao

[tropic hawk]

Your less math may be the only leg you have to stand on. But thats because I'm not at my PC and can check it easily

[rustic patio]

i did plan ahead

i planned to expand it...

why would i use 3450 from the beginning on?

oh btw, you said you disagree with "most" of them, but you disagree with all of them lmfao

at this point it almost feels personal lol

you're not budging even a single nanometer

[wind spade]

if you make a setup and base most of it's advantages on "you don't have to plan things" and post it in #math-and-meta where most people are nerds that plan things ahead, then don't be surprised it won't be liked

[rustic patio]

i did plan thigns, by giving me the ability to expand it

i planned ahead and knew in the future i want to turn 3450 oil into plastic and rubber

but i also knew i couldnt do that at the time

so i built my factory in a way that would allow me to do it in the future

how is that not planning?

its like that one swedish chair

i think thats peak planning

it grows with the child

planning ahead and buing a chair that the child can use through its entire adulthood is planning

buying a new chair every year...

is that planning?

[wind spade]

planning ahead is "I know how much I'll need", not "I hope I'll need this"

[rustic patio]

i knew how much ill need from the very beginning!

3450 oil to plastic and rubber, and some fuel in the mean time

[wind spade]

then you don't need to swap recipes

[rustic patio]

mistakes can be made

ur acting like flexibility is a drawback

and we were talking about expandability...

just because you personally wont use a feature because you're a god and are omniscient and the game never updates and you never make mistakes doesnt mean that it might be useful to some

but you deny it

again, i dont get why all of you are so focused on arguing against me

why is it impossible to agree with the fact that some desgins have some advantages and some have other advantages and it is a subjective choice which is better?

no, you insist that mine is bad bad bad and there is nothing redeemable about it

[wind spade]

I never said that tho

I said that the advantages you provide aren't advantages in my eyes

[rustic patio]

you're disagreeing with me, and all im saying is that there are advantages and disadvantages

so you're saying there are 0 advantages and only disadvantages

something with no advantages and yes disadvantages sounds like somethings thats just objectively bad and has nothing redeemable about it

well, disadvantage that i know of

it has to be manually filled once, but still, thats a disadvantage

you probably agree with that

and the only other claim im making is that it has advantages

and since you disagree with me, it has to bet that thing that you disagree on

[wind spade]

you're saying how opinion and advantages are subjective and fail to accept that in my subjective opinion the advantages aren't good enough

[rustic patio]

you say they arent advantages in your eyes

you're not saying that it isnt advantageous to you, it isnt an advantage at all to you

that is a difference

a wheelchair isnt advantageous to me, but i can clearly see how it can be an advantage to someone

[rustic patio]

so you agree with me?

[wind spade]

no

[rustic patio]

what do you disagree with then?

[wind spade]

but in this case it's about whether they need the wheelchair or if they intentionally do something weird to need the wheelchair

[rustic patio]

do you agree with the following statements?
it is weird to not know exactly how much rubber you need once you start oil
it is weird to use fuel power and want to use that fuel later for rubber
it is weird to prefer a simple design over a complex design

[wind spade]

no
yes
depends

[rustic patio]

if you dont agree with them all please tell me which ones you disagree with

[wind spade]

(the "no" and "yes" is answer to the "is it weird" question)

[rustic patio]

so at least one of them isnt weird, aqnd that one can lead to my desing having an advantage, because its easy to expand

so you agree that in some situations which isnt caused by human error or weird behavior my design might have an advantage?

[wind spade]

the first "no" is because you will build rubber when you need it, not "in case I may need it" (that would be weird)

[rustic patio]

wow

its incredibly how stubborn you are

you refuse to agree with me even the slightest bit...

[wind spade]

if you ask around subjective thing, you get subjective answer 🤷‍♂️

[rustic patio]

thats the thing

im not asking for any subjective opinion

my claim is that it is subjective! and you disagree with that!

[wind spade]

"is it weird" is definitely a subjective opinion

[rustic patio]

ah so you were just referring to that one question

not the argument we had the last 10 hours

yep this makes no sense, you refuse to agree with me for some reason

[wind spade]

that's subjective as well

"is my setup good"

[rustic patio]

as if it would instantly make your heart stop

[rustic patio]

thats not what im asking

[wind spade]

and you can't ask objective questions about "difficulty to build" or similar

[rustic patio]

again you completely miss the point

its like 20 feet below you, on idea how it got there

[wind spade]

I get your point, I just simplified it

[rustic patio]

did someone give the point a shovel?

or did you learn to fly? im not sure

[wind spade]

"does my setup have these advantages" is basically the same as "is my setup good"

I'm just too lazy to type

[rustic patio]

again thats not what i asked

[rustic patio]

i feel like its both

[wind spade]

well sure, you said it has those and I said I don't agree, but again, that's irrelevant

(and I do not personally attack you at least)

[rustic patio]

thats not what i claimed

[wind spade]

oh sorry so this list of "advantages my setups have" was written by someone else I guess
#math-and-meta message

[rustic patio]

out of context

it seems you have no idea what i was even trying to argue for

[wind spade]

definitely in context, was answer to question "please list the advantages you claim your setup has"

[rustic patio]

this is pointless

you completely misunderstood the very core of my argument

[wind spade]

enlighten me then

[rustic patio]

lmao, i tried

[tropic hawk]

And now i am caught up

[rustic patio]

so hard

but it feels like you just want to disagree

[tropic hawk]

Neither are you

[wind spade]

no, you said "you miss the point" like 500 times, attacked me personally and then said "I tried"

[rustic patio]

ive already budged a lot

[rustic patio]

after tryingb to enlighten you

[wind spade]

sum up your point then, so I can answer it (again)

[rustic patio]

because im just sick of this, you're not trying to understand you're trying to disagree

[tropic hawk]

Ah yes, modifying your point so you can't be logically attacked anymore, and making it all the more ridiculous

[rustic patio]

no, its called chanigng my opinion once confronted with conflicting evidence

and then for some reason still being argued against lol

[tropic hawk]

and once I gave you evidence that a different system would serve you better, you didn't budge

[rustic patio]

where?

[rustic patio]

im not talking about which system is better though, i dont care about that

[tropic hawk]

Remember the system that I explained was expandable and would allow you fine tuned control over what you produced? you laughed it off as 'impractical'

[rustic patio]

thats not what im arguing for

[rustic patio]

the one where the solution was "build everything twice"?

it is incompatible with my playstyle, im trying to maximize fps

it felt more like you trying to ridicule the way i do things

[tropic hawk]

no, the one where to have two lines fed by manifold and add more refineries when you need more product

[wind spade]

tries to maximise fps

builds extra stuff they don't need yet

[rustic patio]

because i plan ahead and know ill need it 🤦‍♀️

[surreal dune]

is there anything I missed I can swap out to lower resources used?
https://u6.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=GYSo21Cm1aLBjX0rIo7V

[rustic patio]

HOLY FUCK

[wind spade]

if you know how much you need, then you don't need to "swap recipes" or "expand"

[tropic hawk]

which resources do you want to lower?

[rustic patio]

idk what ur talking about m8

[wind spade]

those are the "advantages" of your setup as you claim

[rustic patio]

your making everything wtf

[tropic hawk]

two of the main 'advantages' for your build

[rustic patio]

ur missing my point

this is pointless

[wind spade]

apparently you know how much you need but yet still need these

what is your point then?

[rustic patio]

that its a tradeoff and one is not strictly superior to the other

[wind spade]

(because you said like 1000 different things and apparently none of them is your point)

[surreal dune]

any is good lol. but mainly Bauxite/Caterium/Copper
Nitrogen and Sulfur too but I don't think I can squeeze much more out of those

[rustic patio]

thats all im saying, there is no clear superiority of hte other setup

imk not saying mine is better

[tropic hawk]

and you are arguing with someone who does weird constraints for fun, someone who coded a program to help people calculate the best recipe chain, and the person who created the plumbing manual

[wind spade]

sure. But then why do you need a setup where you can swap recipes if you don't really need it 🤷‍♂️

[rustic patio]

maybe my english skills are the thing thats causing you to not get my point, im nto sayoint its ur fault

[rustic patio]

i dont need it

[tropic hawk]

and what is the goal of this megafactory?

[rustic patio]

what i want or need is irrelevant, again im just saying that mine is just not objlectively inferior

[tropic hawk]

well with typos like that...

[rustic patio]

thats like, my entire point "it is not objectively inferior"

[surreal dune]

I lost 1500+ hours of saves so starting over :/
Planning out max nuclear, and everything that's going into a auto sorter for storage.
Batteries are because entire world will be Drones for transport logistics.

[wind spade]

then... I don't understand all this "do you agree with the advantages"

[frosty owl]

I saw someone with a similar issue once and I'd definetly like to see more on this, if you don't mind providing more screenshots and info to describe your setup and how you encountered the issue more in detail ^^

I find it an interesting subject, as it's the only example I've seen where manifolding can cause (production) issues where load-balancing wouldn't

[devout vapor]

Is there any risk to overclock coal and water generators?

[rustic patio]

i didnt ask if you agree with the advantages...

i asked if you agreed thatp they could be advantages to some people, which would cause it to be subjective

[tropic hawk]

we are saying that in multiple use cases of planning ahead, a massive amount (90%) of your advantages don't matter. and the few that do are personal taste and maybe a bit of math, and when you are posting here, where people like math and don't really care about personal designs choices, you will get torn apart

[wind spade]

eh...

[rustic patio]

yes, that was in response to nemo after he said he agreed with some of the advantages

i was simply curious and wanted to know which ones they were

[tropic hawk]

is there a reason you want to use just drones for logistics other than 'because I want to'?

[rustic patio]

so do you agree that my design is not objectively inferior?

[wind spade]

if all you wanted was to show an alternative while knowing it's subjective if it's better or not and people said they don't like it, why argue with them? 🤔 I'm just confused

[rustic patio]

because nemo sounded like he was saying it was objectivgely worse

and when i asked him about it he completely went against me

which affirmed me in my suspicioun

[tropic hawk]

if you do the math right and don't run full belts (which you shouldn't) you should be fine... thats why we have injected manifolds and relief lines for output manifolds

[rustic patio]

im sick of this, do you agree with my very simple premise that my design is not objectively inferior?

can we end this meaningless, draining, stupid "conversation" please?

[surreal dune]

I lost the 100+ hours worth of progress on a ground level, no clipping world rail and I don't want to touch trains for awhile now lol

[tropic hawk]

alright, your design other than accounting for personal preference, is objectively worse.

[rustic patio]

lmao

f you lol

[tropic hawk]

have you ever done an elevated train line? or messed around with vehicles?

[frosty owl]

Alternative solution: switch the smart splitters first, then the recipes.

[rustic patio]

wdym switch the smart splitters?

im about to switch from plastic to rubber, so if u have an idea how to make it easier please tell me

[frosty owl]

From plastic to rubber

[surreal dune]

yes & I've already made a world max nuclear build that runs solely on drones transporting all raw resources across the map before so i know how to make drones achieve 780/min

[rustic patio]

the smart splitters dont do sorting

[frosty owl]

👆

[rustic patio]

aah, yes

thx, ill do that

[tropic hawk]

alright, I was trying to chisel down your sulfur demands, but so much for that

[craggy quartz]

making good screenshots in this game is hard

[frosty owl]

The more you try, the better you get at it 😉
If you don't want to, don't feel forced to try, but if you wish to get into screenshotting, take the chance to take a bunch of screens, I won't mind going through them and giving you feedback on which are the best or how to make better ones ^^

[surreal dune]

yea, that's a massive chunk. that's why didn't think i could knock anymore off.
I may be able to once I start planning which nodes I'm using since this will impact the battery consumption. 1000 was just a safety net to make sure I can build everything else on that list and still have excess.

[tropic hawk]

sulfur seems to be as minimized as you can get it

same with Bauxite

[craggy quartz]

i hate how the legs take up half the screen

do i really have to install a mod to hide them

[frosty owl]

It's situational. It's just a very edge-case scenario, but that can cause some headaches if one doesn't have full knowledge of the game yet. The fact that it's the only one (that I know of) too makes it worth pointing out imo

[frosty owl]

Or try different angles

[tropic hawk]

what legs?

[craggy quartz]

cant take good topdown screenshots due to this

[tropic hawk]

using the PFU alt can lower nitro, sulfur, copper, however it would slightly raise bauxite and caterium

[tropic hawk]

why not do an angle instead of straight down?

[craggy quartz]

top down is the best way to see how everything is laid out (or it would be)

[tropic hawk]

then why not use SCIM for that?

[craggy quartz]

is this readable?

[tropic hawk]

if you rotate and zoom in a bit, yes

[craggy quartz]

can you even rotate in scim

[surreal dune]

thanks

[surreal dune]

spin your screen

[frosty owl]

||I'm catching up... Nearly... ||
Yeah, in the early game especially, I tend to prefer setups that allow me to process the Resin however I prefer.
I might want some in storage for the MAM, some for extra rubber, some for filters... Having it "locked" inside another setup can be quite annoying in those situations (needing me to setup something specifically for Resin)

[craggy quartz]

maybe its easier if i just send a save file and @frosty owl can look at it with scim

or ingame if they want

[surreal dune]

you can remove visible layers with the slider on the right side to remove clutter that you're not focused on too

[frosty owl]

Well, that can do too, but I'd still need some details on the issue you had

[craggy quartz]

manifolds dont evenly split the resin, which isnt normally an issue. but it is an issue when your resin manufacturing relies on the by-products being used

[surreal dune]

you using smart splitters ?

[craggy quartz]

no

[surreal dune]

start

[craggy quartz]

why

[surreal dune]

because a manifold will never work on a 1:1 ratio without them

and even with them, on a 1:1 ratio they have to be setup to feed last > first and not first > last

[craggy quartz]

idk how that works

do you set the overflow to go to each refinery

[surreal dune]

yes

[craggy quartz]

ive been using manifolds in 1:1 ratios just fine in other projects, its only an issue when all by-products need to be used evenly later in the process

[frosty owl]

What do you mean with "manifold in 1:1 ratio"?

[surreal dune]

input and consumption match

[craggy quartz]

the reason it's an issue is because when a refinery produces 2 items, it stops producting both if one of them is clogged

i need more resin for the rubber but it won't make more rubber because the residue is full

[tropic hawk]

then introduce a smart splitter at the end of the lines that one output is set to overflow and leads to a sink

[craggy quartz]

you can't sink fluids

unless you package them i guess

[surreal dune]

then you need to prefill your refineries with resin

[tropic hawk]

if the HOR is backing up, then there is another problem that isn't to deal with how you work the solids

[surreal dune]

you need those byproducts and if you didn't belt it to where those needed byproducts aren't needed until the last few refineries they'll never fill on a regular splitter manifold.

[craggy quartz]

It does work fine after all the refineries are prefilled with resin, yeah

so my solution was to just drain the buffers a few times until there was enough resin

[frosty owl]

I'll try to guess the issue, please correct/point out any wrong part:

1. Oil is connected and HOR + Resin start production
2. Fuel and Residual Rubber start producing
3. Fuel goes into Recycled Plastic refineries, but there's barely any Residual rubber coming in
4. The fuel start backing up, causing the HOR to back up and reducing the production of Resin.
5. The system stalls, full of Fuel and HOR; Resin, Rubber and Plastic inputs would be empty

[craggy quartz]

yes

more or less

[frosty owl]

I guess I can figure out the rest just running the save ^^

[tropic hawk]

build an overflow into a FB or an IFB for that line.

[craggy quartz]

have a look at it if you want i guess

[cinder silo]

Omg saves can be small enough to share in here!

I have to use a file share site for mine 😦

[tropic hawk]

specifically for the HOR line, and make a hump like detailed in the plumbing guide

[frosty owl]

There's plenty of ways to solve this issue. The thing is: there exists the issue, and it only happens with manifolds :P

[craggy quartz]

i dont like splitters because they add a big level of unnecessary complexity

i mean balancers

the only time i used balancers was for my nuclear power plant

to split the fuel rods evenly

[cinder silo]

I use balancers on anything radioactive, it has a profound effect on area radioactivity,

[frosty owl]

Thank you (though I suggest deleting that and sending it through DMs instead, just to keep it within the #rules 😅)

[craggy quartz]

i think radioactivity is completely irrelevant to be honest

[cinder silo]

Sometimes I'll load balance even a factory just because I can.

[cinder silo]

Well you do you, I wanted my nuclear facility walkable from mine to sink, and got it.

[craggy quartz]

the game caps radioactivity at a super low value

and once you have a supply of iodine filters you dont really run out

[frosty owl]

Things were different when you had to choose between flying or using a hazmat suit

[craggy quartz]

so eh

i think that if radioactivity is super high then you should start taking low amounts of damage even with filters

[frosty owl]

The new equipment slots kinda "nerfed" nuclear balancing

[craggy quartz]

but its not a big deal really

nah im glad you dont have to constantly swap between equips that shit was annoying

well i still swap between jetpack and hover pack

[frosty owl]

"Super-high" radioactivity kills you within 10 seconds ^^

[craggy quartz]

yeah without filters

[frosty owl]

Eg: standing near an ISC of plutonium waste

[craggy quartz]

with filters you just burn them faster

i meant even WITH filters, if your radiation bar is completely maxed, you should still take a little bit of damage

[cinder silo]

I know you can use the hazmat and shit but I prefer to build in a manner that culls unnecessary radiation, the plutonium fuel rod manufactory is still quite dangerous, still 5 out of 6 isn't bad.

[craggy quartz]

did you get the save @frosty owl i deleted it because apparently its against the rules

[frosty owl]

Ah, that's an interesting suggestion

I'm all down to make nuclear balancing more relevant

[craggy quartz]

honestly the equipment changes were the best changes made in a long time

[frosty owl]

Nope. I don't have messages active, try sending a friend or message request first

[craggy quartz]

swapping constantly is annoying

[ornate shoal]

where is that laura now? her way doesn't have this issue

[cinder silo]

Swapping is something I refused to mess with, it is the initial reason my nuclear industry is almost totally radiation free.

[frosty owl]

No, that was referred to Atrum's setup

[craggy quartz]

also i still never figured out train signals
i just have a single train on each of my tracks because its easier

[frosty owl]

Have you checked out the guide yet?

[cinder silo]

Likewise, I did manage some epic train crashes though 🤣

[craggy quartz]

well they cant crash if you only have one train xd

(per track)

[cinder silo]

I keep looking but something just doesn't go in.

[surreal dune]

I need a third arm to grow so i can comply better

[cinder silo]

I know I should drink less 🙂

[craggy quartz]

honestly i think its just easier to have a single train with like 12 carriages instead of multiple smaller trains

[surreal dune]

TL;DR block signals everywhere, only use paths between entrance and exits to intersections and train stations.

[craggy quartz]

then you also only have to have 1 train line with loops at both ends

[cinder silo]

The one train I have working is a shuttle type double-ender that moves 4320 aluminium ingots, the other is a staged 400 car train crash experiment that knocks a ryzen 9 7950x with 64gb ram/rtx4090 down to 3 fps.

[craggy quartz]

and just add more locomotives if it gets bigger

[cinder silo]

You "can" use 1 loco for 400 cars but it moves at 13kmh

[craggy quartz]

if you had 400 cars with 100 engines wouldnt it move at normal speed

[cinder silo]

Never tried but here is 1 loco coiling 400 cars.

Not fast!

[craggy quartz]

my point is just have one big train with multiple locomotives and carriages, instead of having many smaller trains on the same track
then you never have to worry about crashes or signals at all
and you only have to lay track in one direction, and put a loop at both ends

just seems easier

[cinder silo]

It does balloon the size of a station, for moving goods you might be better served by having two on the line instead of one.

[craggy quartz]

i mean i have a train with 10ish carriages that serves two different factories, the stations are decently big but not super unreasonable

[barren elm]

Signals aren't complicated enough to warrant such weird measures

[craggy quartz]

but its not difficult to just add more train cars either

[cinder silo]

I usually simplify things to their most basic level, to make shit as bulletproof as possble.

[craggy quartz]

the only time i made a complete circuit instead of a straight line was when i needed to visit three different points that formed a triangle

otherwise i just make a single line with loops at the ends like this

[cinder silo]

I'm not very fond of loops,. they make the train line larger than necessary, I'd sooner just use a double headed train and have it shuttle back and forth.

[craggy quartz]

ill be honest i just cant foresee any situation where it's easier to have multiple trains with signal systems.
when i build a train system its for a single build project, where i train specific resources i need from different places to a single build location, then transport the finished goods back
id love to be proven wrong though since most of my experience with this game is just trying stuff out myself rather than reading guides

[cinder silo]

A complexity that could be avoided by separating the train lines.

Train smashes are fun, but not when they bring your whole system to its knees.

[fierce cypress]

Sometimes you need multiple trains for throughput and that requires some sort of signalling

[fierce cypress]

whole system meaning pc or factory

[cinder silo]

Can stuff up either depending on the accident.

Especially if power related.

[fierce cypress]

Power crashes are never fun

Unless you only have 3 biomass burners

[cinder silo]

Black starts suck ass.

[craggy quartz]

biomass collecting before coal generators is kinda awful honestly

i do kind of wish that burners had a conveyor in, i know it wont happen because the whole point is youre not supposed to automate them, but i just wish i could stick all my biomass into a container and then have it feed into constructors to turn it into solid biomass then automatically distribute to burners, instead of having to interact with each one

[rustic patio]

It's on purpose so people don't get comfortable in biomass

Nvm you already said that lol

[craggy quartz]

i think everyone rushes to coal gens because theyre fed up of collecting biomass

cant imagine not doing that

[frosty owl]

Meh. Biomass collection has never been an issue once I started hunting proactively rather then just killing whatever bothered me

100 biomass per killed alien. At the least. That's fast enough to me

[cinder silo]

Not 100 biomass burners though, that would suck.

[vapid gorge]

Are you having it stop at many stations? If so that’s the perfect way to kill your train throughput by adding a lot of 30 second stops

[vapid gorge]

Yes, like we said, that’s the whole point

[wispy tiger]

Pretty funny that you can sort of do this, but only when you get to fuel generators lmao

[vapid gorge]

Biocoal

[wispy tiger]

Oh shit I forgot about those alts

Someday I'll roll one

[vapid gorge]

That’s because they are terrible and should be forgotten

[wispy tiger]

XD

Are they worse than solid biofuel?

[vapid gorge]

There’s… just no point once you get to coal? And I’ve never seen it come up before I start on coal plants

[wispy tiger]

Ah fair