math-and-meta

[prisma kraken]

hmm?

[wind spade]

@austere wadi example:

all the red signals need to be of same type, as they point into same block (the green one)

[austere wadi]

I feel like thats what Im doing

I have that without the extra line going up and down

Still saying conflicting entry signal types

On the exit block

The entry blocks are good though

[wind spade]

maybe the next block on the right has such issue?

also heavily recommend to not put signals on two-way rail

[austere wadi]

Isn't signaling needed to avoid collisions?

[wind spade]

is it a two-way rail?

(meaning trains will go both ways on it)

[austere wadi]

Yes it all loops

[wind spade]

then don't put signals in there

otherwise you can get what's called "kissing trains"

two trains going each from one direction, stopping on a signal because the other one blocks their path

that's why you don't put signals on two-way rails

[austere wadi]

How do you stop collisions then?

[wind spade]

ideally - make one-way tracks only (dual track setup)

if you don't want to do that - put the signals on the place where it becomes two way track, e.g. like this

[austere wadi]

Okay, just tried that picture and it failed. Lol

[wind spade]

failed how?

[austere wadi]

Path cannot contain stations

[wind spade]

you have a path signal somewhere after which you have a station

which you can't do

[opaque oak]

Because you aren't supposed to use path signals on that.

And you need a block before the station.

If previous junction has a path for some reason.

[austere wadi]

Okay its partially fixed now.

Now just the two blue blocks in the picture say block had no exit signal

I need to watch that youtube video again...

Seems all counter intuitive. I'll try again tomorrow.

[opaque oak]

Blocks say that if there isn't any further signals along the route because it is still under construction.

So that one can be just ignored until the system is done.

[austere wadi]

So having opens in the track screws with the signalling?

[opaque oak]

Just past the last signal in that direction.

So not really.

The last signal will show that error of no exit, but that is correct, because there is no exit yet and no train will ever try to head there.
So it doesn't matter.

[austere wadi]

Ahhh

Slowly piecing it together.

[opaque oak]

You cannot have a block of rails between signals when you only have single signal and stub of rail 🙂

[vast jungle]

I am trying to downsize my "Standard" Rubber/Plastic factory to make it easier to scale... anyone interested to see if I made a major mistake?

Standard Rubber/Plastic Factory recipe

1. Produce 120 HOR (and 60 Polymer Resin)
   3 Refineries (HOR 300%)
2. Produce 240 Fuel from 120 HOR
   4 DPF-Loops (400%) or 2/3 Blenders (240%)
3. Produce 30 Rubber from 60 Polymer Resin
   1-2 Refineries (Residual Rubber 150%)
4. Produce 30 Rubber and 30 Plastic from 30 Rubber (see below)
   Keep the desired output, feed the other output into step 5
5. Increase Number of Rubber (or Plastic) by 8
   1+2+4 Refineries (Recycling, each 100%)

Result: 270 Rubber or 270 Plastic

30 Rubber (and 30 Fuel) into 30 Rubber and 30 Plastic

20 Rubber => 40 Plastic (Recycled Plastic 66%)
10 Plastic => 20 Rubber (Recycled Rubber 33%)

[prisma kraken]

assuming 90 oil input?

you should be able to get 3x the amount of rubber OR plastic, of the oil input, but not both

[vast jungle]

its not that this factory produces both... it produces one or the other, with the same layout... just need to switch the belts between step 4 and 5 and change the recipe order in step 5

so its 90 Oil to 270 Rubber... or 90 Oil to 270 Plastic

I am also looking into blueprinting the more complicated parts of it, to make it easier to setup in later playthroughs. just have to remember to downscale the BP belts to MK3 and the pipes to MK1 😉

[cold kayak]

Hello, I have made this script which calculates the number of water extractors and coal generators in relation to the number of veins used and the rarity of each third of miners.
I would like to know why it doesn't care about the tier of the miners?

[opaque oak]

Edit: Removed bunch of nonsense.

[opaque oak]

Ah, you forget to save the miner level calculation back into the variable.

"coal_input * 2" -> "coal_input = coal_input * 2"

Same for overclock

[cold kayak]

thank'''s bro you are insane

[frosty owl]

Why have the quickwire travel around when you can have the ECRs themselves do some crazy tour
||BTW, ECR can make for some neat sushi if you design the setup so it outputs ECR inputting ingots (Steel, Iron, Copper, Caterium) 😉||
https://youtu.be/OWglNWMigIQ

[prisma kraken]

nice looking factory

that's pretty nuts how you route them

[rustic patio]

Moon, do you know if there's a way to see all doggo locations?

[prisma kraken]

since U7, i've gotten much less imaginative though and prefer the express train...

front

back

[fierce cypress]

U5 map (i can't find higher res )

[rustic patio]

Thanks!!!

[prisma kraken]

btw, they never updated the desert plateau to show all the water pools there

[frosty owl]

Thank you. I just realized I had all the belts "already laid out", so I went a little extra with where I sent them. It was just a matter of adding more rules to prog splitters rather than modifying beltwork

But if you look behind the ECR assemblers you can see the entirety of the "sushi production" I mentioned earlier. Input a single MK4 (iirc, can't recall all the throughout exactly atm) of ingots and get your ECRs out

[prisma kraken]

i use sushi belts all over the place, but yours are something else

[frosty owl]

I did try to push it to the limits for... Showoff purposes there

[prisma kraken]

hey, if you're going to do something go all the way 🙂

[broken stream]

lol

[fierce cypress]

not the right channel

[opaque oak]

So close but so far with the text...

[fierce cypress]

light oil is T9 content

@broken stream but ai stuff goes in #off-topic-media as per rules

[gloomy palm]

If it's not me it's someone else

#satisfactory-memes message

@final jetty What prompts are you using to get these results? Are you feeding it recipe information?

I've got an independent project going which is working on a similar concept on a larger scale

(i.e. AI-driven recipe analysis for every fully automatable recipe in the game)

If you'd like to discuss I've got a thread going in

#1057404188407111770

[final jetty]

It's hit or miss, like with asking for programing code you need to do a little debugging. But basically try to ask it component questions or direct it to be more specific or simplify.

Every factory has some divergent any efficiencies or overefficiencies and it seems to understand that so it's sometimes struggles to give you very precise numbers or examples.

[gloomy palm]

Well this much I understand which is why I launched the project, but my question is what game data information are you feeding it in order for it to make any analysis for your questions

[wind spade]

I think it's just a text prompt, no data

[gloomy palm]

The less data you provide it, the more imagining it will do

[wind spade]

also, hardly an analysis

[final jetty]

Simple stuff, like in the sample you referenced my exact question was "How many tier two iron miners do I need to be able to produce ten reinforced plates per minute?"

[gloomy palm]

Yes but it's interesting nonetheless, I am unaware of anyone else using ChatGPT for doing calculations for the game

[gloomy palm]

You were expecting it to know what the production rates are without telling it what game you're playing or something?

[wind spade]

it's not a calculation tho

it's just "how to make" and like 50% of it is wrong anyway

[gloomy palm]

That's because there was hardly any data given to it specific to the game, it's just imagining a response

[final jetty]

No, I first asked it if it knows what the game Satisfactory is. It can interpret conversation context.

[gloomy palm]

Yes I know, but it has limited knowledge about game data

and if it did, it would be outdated

[opaque oak]

Basically the data it has is from 2021 IIRC newest.

[final jetty]

This is true, and it tells you that it's data is limited to mostly up to 2021

[gloomy palm]

Yes but it is unlikely that it can answer game specific questions as it's unknown whether the Satisfactory wiki was part of its training data

The project I'm working on would involve training ChatGPT by giving it the relevant information ahead of asking it questions

[final jetty]

Again it understands conversation context, so if you give it the information it needs, it should be able to extrapolate.

Worth a shot anyway.

[gloomy palm]

Yes I am aware of how it works, but it would be unlikely to be very useful with casual conversational questions before feeding it accurate game data

you're relying on it understanding how the game works, and it can lie very convincingly

[final jetty]

We could assume that. Or you could just try it and see.

[gloomy palm]

I am not sure what you're trying to convince me of. I've already experimented, there's nothing further I can learn by attempting to ask it to explain how Satisfactory works without me feeding game data to it

That was the first thing I tried before I started this project

[final jetty]

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. And I am now quite lost as to what you're getting at.

[gloomy palm]

Well this is embarrassing, I apologize for misinterpreting you

[vapid gorge]

🍿

[gloomy palm]

You can put the popcorn away

[vapid gorge]

no, I like popcorn

[gloomy palm]

I said put it away, Sam

[final jetty]

No worries.

[gloomy palm]

I am still fascinated by your use of AI and the faith you have in its effectiveness, I like that and it's exactly the kind of thing that got me interested in pushing AI to its limits

Unfortunately ChatGPT is not very good at reliably doing math

[final jetty]

Considering GPT's build date I wouldn't assume it would be able to handle most of the more recent formula.

As for my faith in it, well I did post it in memes Still it's been an interesting tool to explore.

[gloomy palm]

Yes indeed, and true it was meant as a joke, but still, thinking about trying was more than most have done

[final jetty]

It was honestly on a whim. I was chatting with it about artic ice breakers and had the thought of hey do you know satisfactory? Just kinda went from there.

[gloomy palm]

😁😁 brilliant

I like your whims

[final jetty]

Thanks ^-^
I've always liked fussing with AI and chat programs. Seeing how they handle existential dread or socal problems and just watching the program error out.

But also it's helpful to use as a sounding board to kinda, talk to myself but not in my own head? Helps me analyze issues sometimes. But it's good to know the program's limits.

[gloomy palm]

Yes I often use it as a personal assistant, psychologist, Google search, confident, legal counsel, linguist etc
Each to varying degrees of success 😅 But I believe it will reshape the way people live as it continues to evolve, and eventually having AI models which are internet enabled combined with the GPT language models, such as with WebGPT, we will see huge shifts in the way people use the internet

What's also interesting is just how much these technologies have polarized society, with people hating it through and through, and others embracing as a tool and vessel into the future

[oblique hollow]

i guess it goes back to "damn robots taking our jobs away" vs "ah, finally, an easier (?) method"

[gloomy palm]

🤣🤣yeah

[final jetty]

A good tool when interacting with AI (because it likes looooong explanations) is whenever it gives you too much, just say "too long, simplify" or "summarize that"

[gloomy palm]

yes, it was a known "feature" of ChatGPT that it would generate verbose output

they said this was as a result of the training process where volunteers preferred long-form outputs which appeared more human, informative and professional as opposed to simpler and shorter responses

[final jetty]

Long data is good to have, but it's good to also have the short version. Nice that it does both.

[gloomy palm]

yes indeed

[thick plank]

Robot surpremacy. Never wondered why human engeneers go to other planets and get commands from ai? Instead of sending a robot? Wake up sheeple, the ai has taken over our home and is using slaves to gather resources from nearby planets. Its all in the lore!

Reject automation, become monke. Dont feed the ai your precious resources!

[gloomy palm]

🤣🤣

[cinder silo]

Not enough AI limiters!

[gloomy palm]

that's another example of some ambiguous names of game items

AI Limiter
AI-Driven Limiter

Limiter of AIs, Destroyer of Worlds

[celest mesa]

So I have around 10k Iron ingots/minute and 4.4k Copper ingots per minute that i still need to use up in my system and little to no other resources, does anyone have any ideas where i could put it?

[wind spade]

well, you're going from the wrong end. You should first decide on your production goals and then figure out how much of each resource you need for that

[gloomy palm]

or alternatively sink what you don't know what you need something for yet

c o u p o n s

[rustic patio]

@supple eagle

here you can see that if you want to transport 1150 items/minute you need your round trip time to be between 103.036 and 333.913 seconds

so you would have 130 seconds room for your rtt

the numbers depend on the stacksize, the example i sent is with a stack size of 200

S is the stack size

[fierce cypress]

this is throughput per carriage right?

[rustic patio]

yes, per carriage with isc buffer

[fierce cypress]

got it

and for more trains you can just multiply by the number of trains?

to get the new RTT range

[rustic patio]

well, its not technicall the rtt, its how often a train stops at the station

[celest mesa]

my only "production goal" is processing the entire desert in a self sufficient system (not counting power)

[rustic patio]

so if you have two trains and they stop there every 2 minutes then the rtt would be 1 minute i guess

but then idk if it still works if they arrive shortly after one another?

could screw stuff up

[fierce cypress]

it shouldn't

[rustic patio]

but often you dont need more than two trains on one line

[fierce cypress]

sometimes

i only have one line that requires it

[rustic patio]

yea only on big lines

[fierce cypress]

thats what your graph tells me should be the time for said line

i didn't think it was 5mins

but it must be more

i haven't actually timed it

but one train wasn't enough to keep up

but anyway cool tool that i'll probably use in the future

[rustic patio]

whats the stacksize?

[fierce cypress]

100

[rustic patio]

thanks! i was inspired by the reddit post

[fierce cypress]

alu ingots

[rustic patio]

small

i didnt know alu ingots were so smol

or rather, so large, since u cant put many in one space

[fierce cypress]

585/min over 3 carriages

[rustic patio]

all ingots are 100?

[fierce cypress]

i think so

[rustic patio]

wow, didnt know that, thats annoying

[fierce cypress]

yup just checked, all ingots are 100

although SAM ingots are supposedly 50

no idea how accurate that info is though

[prisma kraken]

correct... pain to store if you've collected a bunch

[fierce cypress]

they're not actually implemented in the game i don't think

[prisma kraken]

no purpose for them, but you can't sink or toss em

[fierce cypress]

how do you obtain them?

[prisma kraken]

there's random ore deposits of them around that yield 25 or 50 same ore

as well as a few sam mining nodes

[fierce cypress]

thats SAM ore

not SAM ingots

[prisma kraken]

oh, INGOTS, doh, lol

forgive me, just waking up 😛

[fierce cypress]

im just going to bed

4:40am here

been a long night 😛

[prisma kraken]

speaking of, does anyone have any ideas for a compact design for 120 manufactures?

the number kinda scares me, lol

[deft lichen]

well, it is accurate in the sense of matching the data from the last build where the item existed
as with other unreleased content it's almost certainly subject to change

[heavy gust]

when did news on that drop? or is it speculation?

[deft lichen]

there are no news on that

it was datamined from an ancient release of the game and is pretty much placeholder stuff

they talked about the current state of unreleased content in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBGakEZilwk

[rustic patio]

can one of you help me diagnose why my coal gens arent being fed correctly?

[snow dove]

is it not getting enough coal or water?

[rustic patio]

oops, meant fuel gens

4 of the 40 blenders that feed the fuel gens are at 98% instead of 100%

[snow dove]

means it’s either not receiving enough resources, or it’s backing up

are you relying on getting full 600 pipes?

[rustic patio]

yes, in some places

[snow dove]

that may be it

[rustic patio]

nope

its earlier in the production line, they work flawlessly

[snow dove]

mk2 pipes have some issues reaching max throughput

[rustic patio]

ill send ss wait

[snow dove]

okay then. are they running out of resources or backing up?

[rustic patio]

well, the 60 blenders that feed my rubber/plastic production are at 100, so it mkust be the fuel gens not eating fast enough

[snow dove]

is the fuel gens at the end of the line running out of fuel?

[snow dove]

for starters, remove the buffer

[rustic patio]

already done :)

[snow dove]

okay that’s a start

[rustic patio]

pretty sure i added them to make things work better though

[snow dove]

are you using those pipeline floor holes or are you clipping through them?

[rustic patio]

using the floor holes

[snow dove]

they have some weird headlift things

[rustic patio]

i know, but it only goes down from them

headlift varies with fill state, but nothing goes above them

[snow dove]

if you want the same look i recommend just clipping through them, they also can have some throughput issues

[rustic patio]

what, since when?

[snow dove]

since they were added iirc

[rustic patio]

ive never heard of that

[snow dove]

you can get the same look by just clipping through them

[rustic patio]

644 of the 1073 floor holes are not used in the gens and they all work fine

i hope it was the buffers

i dont want to replace 429 floor holes

they're still stopping?????

wtf

[austere wadi]

"Placing pumps, valves or junctions directly on pipes can cause a transient throughput throttling, somewhere around 1 m^3 per minute. additionally, occasionally, even when the junction is placed, then re-connected after deconstructing the original pipe, a small segment of pipe can get stuck inside the junction, this will also cause throughput throttling. this issue affects both mkI and mkII pipes. "

https://satisfactory.fandom.com/wiki/Pipeline

I feel like this was the issue I was having with through put

[rustic patio]

ill try adding pumps to every line

[austere wadi]

Seems like pipes have serious bugs.

[vapid estuary]

suspecting floor holes is like suspecting supports. old wives' tale

[austere wadi]

I thought I was going crazy with my plant since I had to rebuild every connection multiple times before it started working.

[rustic patio]

thanks

also im pushing 460 through a mk2, i dont have 140 junctions per line

my other suspicioun would be the pumps

but, there too, i have conflicting info

its the one difference between the plastic plant and the fuel plant

does operating within the limit of headlift cause a reduction in throughput?

aand i found the issue

fuck, i really didnt want it to be this. dont trust pump holograms

i placed the pumps always on the pump holograms but they say "exceeding maximum headlift"

its exactly at 55m

[vapid estuary]

that's a first, and mega annoying. even, i'd say, a bug

[rustic patio]

I've heard of it before but thought it wouldn't happen to me

I placed them so that they snapped into the holograms...

Time to redo all my pumpd

[vapid estuary]

if you save a copy of the savefile while it's wrong, it might make a good bug report on the QA site. CSS says they often have a hard time reproducing bugs

or did you rebuild the pump and now it's fine

[rustic patio]

Haven't done anything yet, eating dinner rn

Will make a save when I'm.back at my laptop

[snow dove]

they have some weird mechanics

[oblique notch]

no, not really. They have systems that are not intuitive and can lead to design problems that make full throughput difficult... but they do not have any issues as a game mechanic reaching it.

maybe pedantic, but in terms of bugs and such I prefer to be correct - especially if it turns out CSS is happy with the complexity of fluids and never tweaks it. Then its a system, not a bug.

directed at @austere wadi too. ☝️ . Not bugs. Non intuitive mechanics that are hard to grasp when coming from belts.

(not that this is fine mind you. it could very well be improved, and I hope they do, but... not a bug)

[oblique hollow]

i still dont believe that transient throughput thing but apparently evil tim does

[oblique notch]

whats this?

[oblique hollow]

its on the pipe wiki page

#math-and-meta message
this quote

[oblique notch]

thats bullshit

if that were true, many of my systems would not run at 600m3

and... they do.

[rustic patio]

It's so sexy when a complex system runs at 600m3/100%

Best thing ever, better than drugs

[oblique hollow]

i find it ridiculous

[oblique notch]

it is

[oblique hollow]

i hate running things at max

[oblique notch]

i usually dont either, but i have a couple I pushed to the max

[rustic patio]

Like, pipes? I don't usually do it either, but I couldn't be bothered to run 10 oil pipes to my refineries

[oblique hollow]

im currently doing a playthrough of my own mod and i specifically made it so not a single machine can do 600 at 250%

[rustic patio]

Everywhere else I'm sub 600

The 600 pipes get split the instant they reach my first machines, from there on its 460

[rustic patio]

Bottom fed of course

[oblique hollow]

augh bottom feeding

[oblique notch]

ok, i amend my statement somewhat. I think the valves/pumps causing anything like that is BS. Junctions? not so sure. with each of the 3 other ports for a pipe to pull from being considered equally, round robin could very well happen

[rustic patio]

It's prettyyyyyyy

[oblique hollow]

but also messy

[rustic patio]

How?

[oblique notch]

and makes it much more difficult to get to work smoothly 😛 not impossible mind you! just more difficult

[rustic patio]

If I can get it to work then the legendary McGalleon can too

https://youtu.be/O7MdMEExDoA

Look at all the beautiful bottomfeeding going on here

(my oil factory)

[oblique notch]

gravity. Pipes fill from the bottom up. So when a machine takes liquid, it leaves a gap... at the top. where the machine is connected. The rate at which machines pull is a) faster than the max flow of a mk2 and b) comes in bursts. The time between the bursts of pulling fluid may not be enough time for the pipe to refil back up to where the input line is. The more machines you have like this, the greater chance of stalls

[cinder silo]

Never considered encasing refineries in glass.

[oblique hollow]

bad refineries get put in the refinery box for punishment

[rustic patio]

okay, and? it still runs at 100% efficiency

[cinder silo]

Ahhh!

[oblique notch]

if you can get it to work, go for it. Like i said, its not imposisble

it just is more difficult and often the cause of most peoples woes.

thats why Mcgalleon doesnt like it :p

[rustic patio]

theres no difference between it and my topfeeding setup besides one is above and one is below...

[oblique hollow]

i always go for the piping that will likely cause the least trouble

[cinder silo]

I bottom feed a colossal turbofuel power station, had a few wrinkles initially but the entire thing is purring like a kitten now.

[rustic patio]

at least the refineries arent alone, my blenders are in solitary confinement

[oblique hollow]

and bottom feeding has a bad rep for causing trouble

especially if floor holes are involved

[oblique notch]

I actually use a buffer on a slightly over production input system to stabilize and maintain bottom fed machines

[oblique hollow]

buuut i recently tried a small bottom feeding test rig

[cinder silo]

I used 888 floor holes to test that 🤣

[oblique hollow]

aaaand it needed just one pipeline pump to get it all to work

[oblique notch]

the buffer tank is above the inputs, and is most likely to absorb the gaps quickly, given some of the odd priority things buffer tanks have. And slightly higher production that consumption helps keep the pressure up.

[rustic patio]

im using over 1k floor holes in my setup

[oblique hollow]

the horror

lucky you i guess

[rustic patio]

why lucky?

[oblique hollow]

if none of those acted up so far

they have a notorious history

[rustic patio]

i just checked each one to see if it worked before moving on to the nxet

[oblique hollow]

of straight up killing head lift

[rustic patio]

theres about a 50% chance they dont connect

[rustic patio]

never heard of that

the only thing i noticed i.s that sometimes theres no connection

[oblique hollow]

you mean "looks connected but isnt"?

[oblique notch]

similar outcome

[rustic patio]

yes

[oblique hollow]

eh, just as bad tbh

[rustic patio]

easy fix, just delete and place again

[rustic patio]

not really, one can be easily fo;und and fixed

[oblique hollow]

but then again pipes always had connection issues

[oblique notch]

i have thousands of pipe holes... and simultaneously 0. 🤣

(i use them only for deco and pass pipes stright through them)

[rustic patio]

if it just makes headlift go away... how would u fix that?

[oblique hollow]

remove the hole

[rustic patio]

ur just fucked, have to not use the holes i guess

[rustic patio]

true but i want holes

[oblique notch]

its a bug, it doesnt happen all the time

i put the hole down then just clip pipes through it.

with the indicator less pipes this is perfect :p

[rustic patio]

can it appear at random after a certain time?

[oblique notch]

no idea. dont think so

[rustic patio]

ive never had that happen to me...

[oblique hollow]

lucky exception

[rustic patio]

btw, reconnecting the pipe to the pump changed absolute,ly nothing about the headlift of the previous pump

0 change

both input and output

i guess some laws of physics just dont apply to me?

[oblique notch]

well... the 0 headlift and 'not actually connected' will look pretty much the same from the UI

no fluid flowing through the hole.

so... 🤷 lol

[rustic patio]

even if its downward?

[oblique notch]

headlift does not affect downward motion at all

headlift is a point at which fluids will not flow above but they will flow down below that as much as they want

gravity and all 😉

but the connection one... yeah that would block downward of course.

[rustic patio]

exactly my point

it wouldnt look the same if the fluid is moving down through the hole 😉

[oblique notch]

sure sure. my point was tho that any connection issues you had with liquid going up could have been the headlift bug and it be impossible to tell :p

[rustic patio]

yes but i only had the connection issue with liquid going down :p

[rustic patio]

okay im going crazy

time to do math

[rustic patio]

120 refineries for HOR
110 at 100% consuming 30mw
10 at 50% consuming 12mw

100 blenders for DF
90 at 100% consuming 75mw
10 at 60% consuming 38.2mw

144 refineries for recycling
144 at 85.1852% consuming 24.3mw

• 216 at 85.1852% consuming 24.3

60 refineries for resin
50 at 95.8333% consuming 28.4mw
10 at 100% consuming 30mw

20 water extractors for resin
20 at 95.8333% consuming 18.9mw

80 water extractors for diluted fuel
20 at 83.333% consuming 15.7mw
60 at 100% consuming 20mw

pumps 20 + 10 + 10 + 8*3 + 12 + 6
82

13 Oil extractor
13 at 250% consuming 134.31mw

18 awesome sinks

[thorny heron]

stop going crazy

[rustic patio]

if i add all the numbers up i get 20065.23

but, look at my power graph!

dw im not going crazy im just procrastinating having to do beltwork 😭

[tropic hawk]

that is the most satisfying thing I have ever seen...

[rustic patio]

NOOO ITS HORRIBLE

its the most painful thing ive ever seen

consum and max cons is supposed to be the same

[austere wadi]

Did you include pumps in your calculations

[rustic patio]

yes, i counted all the pumps, 82

[austere wadi]

Is there really 13 oil sites to mine?

[rustic patio]

in the game theres way more than 13, im just using the ones in one place

[austere wadi]

Ahhh

[rustic patio]

its barely more than a third of all the oiil in the game

i plan to use all of it eventually

[tropic hawk]

Ah, but it is. You see it rounds consumption

[austere wadi]

You have 82 pumps?

Thats 656MW

18 awesome sinks use 540MW

This is what I got with your numbers

[cinder silo]

Divide that by 0 🤞

[rustic patio]

i know

btw i quickly checked the efficiency of all my production buildings

oh i miscounted

now i get 21814

@steep rivet do you agree that the top loop might be the problem?

i used a side loop everywhere else

[steep rivet]

well the top loop may "cause" an issue but that depends on the machines - interms of power consumption your hunting for yellow lights..if they are all green...then its that "clocking" thing.

[rustic patio]

they're all green, but some machines were between 99 and 95% efficiency

i suspect it might be becuase it just took longer to get to 100 after being turned on or it might be because there is an inefficiency somewhere

[steep rivet]

the eff rating on the machine doens't dictate power.

Yellow = machine is essentially off Green = machine is on and consuming power at rating or what clock you set

[rustic patio]

i know, i tried using power as a way to measure efficiency because i didnt want to check all 609 machines to figure it out

[steep rivet]

and that rating is a bit..funny funny..now if you think its turning off? stare at it for 5-10mins

[rustic patio]

but since power seems to be unreliable i just checkmed the machines

[steep rivet]

if it goes yellow..you found your problem lol

I tend to judge on light bar colors - so if your green blinks to yellow - you found one potential endpoint to your power problem

[rustic patio]

i took 20 minutes to look at the eff rating on all machines and didnt see one yellow machine...

ill wait a few hours and check a few more eff raqtings, maybe it was just getting back in motion since last restart

[mystic moon]

The effeciency meter is basically broken

[rustic patio]

why?

[steep rivet]

the eff meter is a histogram type read.....so its easy to fudge.

[rustic patio]

or rather, how is it broken?

[steep rivet]

Id say use it as a compaion to the light bar in terms of how your doing...not a single source of truth

[rustic patio]

if its below 100 that means the machine was off at some point though, right?

[steep rivet]

techincally...yes....but like fight pointed out...its not entirely accurate.

[valid hinge]

That is kinda frustrating

[steep rivet]

yep..its a thing...its why I suggest staring at the light bars....pretty hard to miss a "color change" in terms of efficiency concerns.

[visual cove]

it takes 2 hours to build once you have the recipes and the mats. 3 if you only have diluted packaged fuel.

trucks will stop at every truck stop you have path'ed them to stop at. Truckstops will attempt to load any truck that enters it's hitbox. those are two seperate things.

[oblique notch]

Also be aware the efficiency display is actually uptime and I recall something about it not always being 100% accurate

Oh someone said that already. Yikes I'm doing that a lot today

[oblique notch]

If all your doing is plopping down machines in a boring ass line, maybe. Some of us have style 😅🤣

[visual cove]

one row of 10 refineries, one row of blenders in 2x4. one row of 9 refineries. one row of 5 refineries, 2 rows of 9 x refineries face to face.

decoration comes after it starts producing

[oblique notch]

Again. If all you want them in a line, sure.

[visual cove]

sounds like this needs to move to design-and-architecture then.

[oblique notch]

I haven't put machines in a straight line in hundreds and hundreds ofnhours

Probably, but I honestly don't care enough. I'm just being a bit of an ass 😀

[vapid gorge]

pffftt... you believe straight lines exist?

[vapid gorge]

Just don't use it?

large numbers of refineries are ugly as sin. Putting them in a curve at least does something to make them more interesting

[rustic patio]

I mean, that's kinda what I want. 100% uptime of all machines all the time, always

[fierce cypress]

i have factories where it all runs at 100% but sometimes the UI says its 95%+, its usually just the UI

[oblique notch]

yep. but, still some bugs. The lights are surprisingly more accurate 🤷 no idea why. Maybe because they are only a slice of time, and the percentage is over a time period

[vapid gorge]

I'd imagine it's hard to decide what time frame you want the machine to look at. It's kinda arbitrary

Like.. what if there's a stutter every 10 minutes but it only looks at 5 minute chunks? It'll show it's 100% a lot of the time and be wrong

and that's for each machine. I find it just easier to stare at the lights for a few minutes while half doing something else on the other monitor

[frosty owl]

How is power unreliable?
Of you can isolate the machines you're interested in onto one grid (and no PAs are involved), the power draw gives you an exact reading of machines' efficiency over a decent amount of time

Imo, observing the power draw and machines' lights is enough to figure out any issue

[cinder silo]

Why would power be unreliable, how badly did you stuff up construction?

[vapid gorge]

@cinder silo I suspect @rustic patio means the light power/colour is unreliable? as in the lights aren't stable in output

[cinder silo]

Must be some fucked up lights, last time I used them they didn't change when in use.

[vapid gorge]

nah machine lights like green/yellow ect

oh or maybe just meant power consumption isn't flat.

Just read more

[cinder silo]

Oh wrong lights I thought you meant actual lights not machines fucking up.

[vapid gorge]

which I'll never try to make power flat xD

[stray mist]

All of this just for 2 heavy modular frames a minute... I'm new to the game, is this normal or am I missing something?

[mystic moon]

That's normal

You're just getting started

[sand epoch]

Must
Go
Bigger

[heavy gust]

If you get cast screw and encased pipe alt it gets a lot more compact

There is also an alt for faster modular frane production

[prisma kraken]

2 hmf's/min is a good starting number, you can get by through the game in the 4-5minute range, and like for building BIG, probably somewhere in the range of 15-30 is a stout number and as @heavy gust said, there's some alts that make it a lot simpler, look for the encased pipe recipe, steel screw, and heavy encased frame alts, steel frame is another good one

most people tend to really abandon recipes that involve screws very quickly

the screw recipes always require more screws than you'll be able to fit on belts 🙂

[wind spade]

Not true

It's only true if you merge screws for multiple machines together

But you can easily build one screw constructor in front of each machine that needs screws

[prisma kraken]

yeah, i know 780 is divisable by 52, steel screw recipe makes 260, belt beams instead of screws, etc

still better to just avoid screws, imho

[wind spade]

There are great recipes that need screws

Getting rid of screws is weird imo, wire and quickwire have the same issue and you don't see people trying to reduce their usage

[heavy gust]

Cast screws make it easier early

[prisma kraken]

yeah, cast screws as an early unlock is pretty good

early game, i tend to rush research and don't really start basic iron until getting the cast screw

[wind spade]

For first few hours maybe

But it's overshadowed by steel alts and I generally consider it waste of a drive

[heavy gust]

idk im 50 hours into my new save and have not seen the steel alt once

[prisma kraken]

i still have a basic iron plant kicking out a few a few of the basic iron goods/min... its enough for building but not much else

[heavy gust]

so how is it useless, when its the best option available for a good portion of the game

[prisma kraken]

i turned off the screws though, those were taking valuable space on my main bus

[wind spade]

"Good portion of the game" is like 2 hours before you unlock steel

[heavy gust]

but you would still need the new alt

wich i didnt get in 50 hours

so????

[prisma kraken]

well, its actually ~25 minutes if your talking as fast as it can be done

[heavy gust]

and besides that, you dont have steel production in every corner of the map, so its not always convenient to use

[wind spade]

How many drives you went through?

[prisma kraken]

nor do you need screws at all

[heavy gust]

50 i tihnk

[wind spade]

Just as you unlocked steel?

[heavy gust]

not 50 after steel, but most of them after

[wind spade]

I don't think there's 50 alts available after steel

Most of them are unlocked after oil

[prisma kraken]

btw, if you research a drive before unlocking coal power and basic steel, you have a 50/50 chance of getting the cast screw recipe

[heavy gust]

bro, you do know that you can also unlock pre steel alts after the first steel

[wind spade]

If you keep alt recipe pool clean, you only need a few drives to get the recipes you want

[prisma kraken]

well, coal power and oil really inflate the available recipe list

[heavy gust]

ok maybe, but thats nothing 99% of the playerbase will know how to do when playing for the first time

so i REALY dont see that as a valid point

[wind spade]

At that point I'd rather get stitched plates, same power and machine savings, but also saves resources

[wind spade]

Most of the people don't touch alts when playing for the first time anyway. I'm not talking about those people

[prisma kraken]

yeah, the available recipe pool starts at 6 recipes: cast screw, iron & copper alloy, iron wire, stitched plates, and what's the 6th?

[heavy gust]

wdym they dont touch alts? sure, you dont know wich ones exist, but pretty sure anyone went looking for more drives at some point

[prisma kraken]

is it bolted frame?

[wind spade]

They usually do that later in the game, mostly around oil or pre-oil

Which is too late for cast screws imo

[heavy gust]

idk its working pretty good for me

[wind spade]

They don't save any resources anyway

[heavy gust]

yeah but they save your sanity when setting up

[wind spade]

Not really, the advantages are pretty low compared to some other recipes

[prisma kraken]

bolted plate

of those 6 starter recipes, cast screw, copper alloy, stitched plate and iron wire are great recipes

[wind spade]

For you

For others it may be different recipes

[prisma kraken]

and if you do 4 hd's before coal, you have i think 100% for getting all of them

stitched plate + iron wire is an excellent way to do rip's. copper alloy really is amazing, cast screw reduces power consumption when your slumming it on biofuel

can't say i've ever found a use for iron alloy or bolted plate though

[wind spade]

iron alloy: need more iron and have extra copper
bolted plate: need power-cheap reinforced plates

[prisma kraken]

maybe bolted plate can be used in a bp for mf's nicely, i'll revisit that problem shortly

[wind spade]

cast screw reduces power consumption when your slumming it on biofuel
if power is your concern, then stitched plates do the same (and also save resources)

[prisma kraken]

yeah, there's just kinda better ways to go

i need to play with some numbers to see if i can do my MF bp better than by using stitched plates... i think so, but need to crunch some numbers on that all

truthfully though i don't really care in DD, there's more iron there than i know what to do with 😛

[wind spade]

That depends how do you define better

[rustic patio]

i want my consumption and max consumption to be equal, but it seems impossible. all my machines are one but i can never even get close to max consumption. i counted all machines and calculated their real max consumption and it was lower than the max consumption displayed in game

[rustic patio]

wdym "stuff up"? its perfect

[rustic patio]

my lights are all green

any idea what the issu could be?

goomba says theres a bug with underclocking machines and the power graph

[vapid gorge]

do you have things like trains, hyper tubes pumps ect?

[rustic patio]

pumps yes, trains and hyper tubes no

[vapid gorge]

And there is probably some bugs with calculations when it comes to clocking

[rustic patio]

the pumps are all green

[vapid gorge]

And you're really gonna hate things when yo ustart building trains and particle accelerators

[rustic patio]

why? i already hve trains

they're on a seperate grid

[vapid gorge]

trains don't consume constant amounts of power.
Neither do the accelerators

[rustic patio]

thats why i isolate them onto the naughty grid

[vapid gorge]

You'll have to have another naughty grid for hte accelerators.

I think with overclocking it can be like 500mw swing per machine or something?

[rustic patio]

yep

ill put them on the train grid too

[vapid gorge]

if you're building a big enough factory it'll probably look flat anyway since the numbers are large enough

[rustic patio]

i want max consumption to be equal to consumption

i dont want flat

i need perfection

[wind spade]

It's practically unreachable once you get later in game

[rustic patio]

just look

[wind spade]

(Also pointless to chase, but it's your save so eh 🤷 )

[rustic patio]

its always 119.56 under max consumption

but ive never seen a single one of my machines be yellow

[wind spade]

Sounds like a forgotten set of machines or just bugs with display in general

[rustic patio]

all machines are accounted for, i even double checked in scim

396 refineries, 100 blenders, 100 water extractors, 82 pumps and 13 oil extractors

i counted them all by hand and then doublechecked in scim

[wind spade]

Under/overclocking bugs it is

[prisma kraken]

better by my definition is more/min in a 32x32x32 bp, using some multiple of 240 to kick out rip's and mf's

[wind spade]

I mean you can have more BPs 🤷

[rustic patio]

ill try bottomfeeding

maybe thall fix my issues

[frosty owl]

Have you changed the clock of any machine?

[rustic patio]

ive changed the clockspeed of hundreds of machines

like probably over 300

120 refineries for HOR
110 at 100% consuming 30mw
10 at 50% consuming 12mw

100 blenders for DF
90 at 100% consuming 75mw
10 at 60% consuming 38.2mw

216 refineries for recycling
216 at 85.1852% consuming 24.3mw

60 refineries for resin
50 at 95.8333% consuming 28.4mw
10 at 100% consuming 30mw

20 water extractors for resin
20 at 95.8333% consuming 18.9mw

80 water extractors for diluted fuel
20 at 83.333% consuming 15.7mw
60 at 100% consuming 20mw

pumps 20 + 10 + 10 + 8*3 + 12 + 6
82

13 Oil extractor
13 at 250% consuming 134.31mw

i accounted for it all

[frosty owl]

If all machines are working at max efficiency, none turn on and off - > the power draw becomes completely flat
Incidentally, your max consumption is a flat line too, so of you want yourconsumption to match that, the consumption MUST be a flat line too

TLDR: You want flat

[rustic patio]

i already have flat though :P

i want more than flat

well basically flat, i already know why one refinery sometimes turns off and imu fixing it right now

its the damn top feeding, shouldntve tried it

[frosty owl]

What you want, is a lower max power draw (to match your actual power draw).
If there are no yellow lights to fix, there is no issue with your power draw.

[rustic patio]

how would i lower my max power draw?

[frosty owl]

The simplest way I see to find what is throwing off your calculations would be splitting up the grid in pieces until you find which one has this "ghost max power draw" and analize that block further to nail the issue

Eg: say you have 4 factories or "factory areas". Connect factory 1 to power storages and disconnect it from the rest of the grid to isolate its circuit, check if power draw matches with max power draw; of they do, restore power and move on to the next block

[frosty owl]

You either find that it's "just a bug" or disconnect machines that "shouldn't" have been in that grid

[rustic patio]

great idea, thanks

[manic fjord]

Do stop signals also prevent trains going down a railway? I have RHD train and i have 2 lanes go together for in 1 for a short period, and i dont want the trains to go LHD when going out

[deft lichen]

signals force direction

if you don't put a signal on both sides of the track to make it bidirectional, they can't pass a signal "backwards"

[manic fjord]

So like here, if i place a block signal on the left its not going to go left?

[deft lichen]

if you place it on the track before the merge on the left side of the track

[manic fjord]

Thanks 😄

[manic fjord]

Would i be able to do path signals down to the station? There is gonna be a t cross here.

[deft lichen]

avoid bidirectional tracks if possible

they're a huge pain to set up correctly, unless you know exactly what you're doing

[fierce cypress]

and chaining path signals isn't recommended unless you have a good idea of signal logic

[deft lichen]

if you want to plan a sensical railway network, I suggest sketching it out with pen and paper (or in ms paint) before constructing anything in-game
use double tracks accordingly

[manic fjord]

It's more because of this.

[deft lichen]

yeah, that's exactly why

[fierce cypress]

those intersections are pretty close together - can cause issues

[thorny heron]

why do you have a pin called slave factory?

[fierce cypress]

thats where you get sent if you're inefficient

[manic fjord]

My friend who joined for 10 min and left named, it. Its Coal so i havent really been bothered to change itlmao

However, I've seem to gotten the path signals to work. Except 1 thing. every path signal thats pointing out is giving error. Howevver i can imagine thats just because of no railway going the way they are pointing

[fierce cypress]

generally going to a dead end will cause a signal error - said error can be ignored most of the time

[thorny heron]

Path into intersection block out

[manic fjord]

I'm getting 1 error that says this.

[thorny heron]

the signals entering the block are different

[fierce cypress]

that error can't be ignored

send a ss of the whole intersection

[manic fjord]

I fixed it.

Just changed the location of the path signals to be on the railways themselves.

[fierce cypress]

are you doing chained path signals on a bi-directional rail?

please tell me you aren't

[manic fjord]

No.

1 HUGE path signaling

[fierce cypress]

why?

[manic fjord]

Testing right now, i'll send a picture when i get back to the station.

[fierce cypress]

its your rail system, not mine

[rustic patio]

No path signals in my rail network

[manic fjord]

@fierce cypress

[fierce cypress]

... why?

[manic fjord]

Complexity

[fierce cypress]

for no reason?

[manic fjord]

Yes.

[rustic patio]

That many path signals seems like a bad idea

[manic fjord]

It works. 3 trains are currently on the network and for now only 2 have met on the intersection and it did its job.

[rustic patio]

Why do you have a path signal at the exit?

For a path signal to turn green it needs to reserve it's block and the following block

[manic fjord]

Oh you don't need path signals for exits?

[rustic patio]

No?

[manic fjord]

Well just some i can remove

[rustic patio]

Why would you?

[fierce cypress]

you are way overcomplicating and most likely misunderstanding signals

[manic fjord]

Probably. But it's working. 1 train stopped momentarily and went again.

[fierce cypress]

working =/= good

[rustic patio]

It would also work if you only used block signals, it working doesn't mean it's good

[manic fjord]

I could use block signals.

[rustic patio]

Question, what do you think path signals do?

[manic fjord]

But, it would stop trains for time. and i want things to go smoothly as possible.

Before a train enters a path signals it reserves a path.

[rustic patio]

And it's red by default

Which means it's worse than a block signal by default because traisn look ahead as far as their momentum will carry them for red signals

[deft lichen]

@manic fjord do you just want 3 double tracks to be able to enter and leave the same station? I can sketch out how simple that can look

[rustic patio]

And they only start the reservation process once the path signal is in the next block

So if the blcok before the path signal isn't gigantic, every train will slow down every time before the intersection, even if it's empty

[manic fjord]

A sketch for something more efficient could definetly help if its really THAT inefficient.

[rustic patio]

Also, chained path signals will result in one big path signal, which is bad because it needs to reserve more and more will be reserved

[rustic patio]

I'd just add another t intersection further down the track I think

If you want to be super efficient use a non interfering intersection

But your design is fine if you only ever use 3 trains

[zinc ore]

Yo can someone post this on another server?

[manic fjord]

The most traffic jammed area is gonna be the main station..

But here im only using block signals on stations

and 1 infront of the staion so if a que was to be made it wouldnt crash

[fierce cypress]

#off-topic-media

[deft lichen]

@manic fjord

[manic fjord]

Orange = block
blue = path

Right?

[deft lichen]

yes (the symbols also look like B and P)

[rustic patio]

Yes, it's very simple, path on entrance block on exit

[manic fjord]

I'll go make it. 👍

[prisma kraken]

you can chain path signals together, but if you do, you really risk bringing some ugly deadlocks upon yourself

[fierce cypress]

not if you do it right

[prisma kraken]

its more complicated

[deft lichen]

do you? to my understanding split path junctions still work like non-split path junctions, but allow for higher throughput

[fierce cypress]

that doesn't mean you can't make systems that work with them

[prisma kraken]

anyway, a good rule of thumb i follow is start with block signals only, and add path signals as needed

[deft lichen]

yeah, it's always block signal, unless it's a junction or uphill slope

[fierce cypress]

uphill slope?

[prisma kraken]

you'll often find trains actually move faster using block signals, because they don't need to slow at the entrance to a pathing block

[fierce cypress]

oh if it would stall out if it stopped on it?

i'd avoid a slope of that steepness full stop

[prisma kraken]

yeah, that's a good piece of wisdom too

but you can avoid needing that if you 1) keep trains at 4 freight cars or less and 2) don't do an incline of more than a 2 meter foundation rise

(or just use more engines)

[deft lichen]

not that much, it's just horribly time-inefficient to make trains stop on slopes, so I make them stop either before or after

[prisma kraken]

another newbie advice thing... make sure your blocks are bigger than your longest train

[meager turret]

it also works if the train is longer than one block

[deft lichen]

just avoid signal spam, my blocks are 300-400 m long

[prisma kraken]

sometimes, i've accidentally caused some deadlocks with trains too long than a block

i just placed the signals uncarefully, neglecting my advice

[fierce cypress]

my blocks are like 72m long

[prisma kraken]

80 is the length of a 4 car train

[vast jungle]

Mine are 88m i think

11 foundations

[fierce cypress]

whats the issue with small blocks though?

mines 9 i think

[vast jungle]

Trains which are longer than 1 block can produce a deadlock

[fierce cypress]

not necessarily?

[oblique hollow]

you dont want blocks small enough to make other trains think "neat, i can go!" and then they are stuck halfway in an intersection

[vast jungle]

I have seen "train circles"where two trains managed to deadlock... Which resulted in quite a long traffic jam

[fierce cypress]

i can see how it can happen but if intersections are spaced it shouldn't be a problem right?

[prisma kraken]

never think you can imagine every permutation of possible states

with concurrency problems, anything that can happen eventually will happen

[fierce cypress]

well its run fine for hundreds of hours so it should\™️ go for a few hundred more

[deft lichen]

roundabouts are worse than a X junction in every possible way

[fierce cypress]

^

its the equivalent to merging all the lines into a single track at then splitting them all

(ish)

but you get the idea

[prisma kraken]

is there any video or post somewhere examining the delta in performance of them?

i'm not saying so to argue, i'm just curious about the numbers

[manic fjord]

Made the intersection now. Any specific reason you would want to make Block signals going out?

[deft lichen]

block signals are the default option

path signals prevent trains from stopping, which you don't want on straight tracks

[prisma kraken]

block signals end a path

[fierce cypress]

path signals on straight tracks are useless

and slow down throughput

[frosty owl]

Example: If you have a blocked block signal 50m after an intersection and a train is longer than 50m, you get issues when that train stops at that block signal after taking the intersection

[deft lichen]

I don't think it's been examined that thoroughly, simply judging that

• turns slow down trains, a roundabout forces trains on a turn even when going straight or even worse left
• a symmetrical circle is surely more difficult to build than just, well, connecting each way end-to-end with 1 track

it would be interesting to have concrete numbers on this though

[fierce cypress]

yup, shouldn't be a problem in my world since my intersections are usually 100s of meters apart

[deft lichen]

I've always wondered if a train can stop in path junctions when its front reaches a block signal, but part of it is still in a path block

I just know they can be forced to stop fully within a path block when you drive a manual train past their destination block exit signal

[manic fjord]

Alright, loving trains so far. Fixed 1 thing now I need to fix the next thing.

Why is the train down left not going until the train out going reaches its station.

[deft lichen]

you need to place block signals along the track

[fierce cypress]

because you used paths for everything

seeing the issue yet?

[deft lichen]

block signals allow 1 train inside, period
path signals allow multiple trains IF their paths don't cross (they do cross on a straight track, because their path overlaps)

[manic fjord]

There are 0 path signals until steel

Which is way up and should not affect it.

[deft lichen]

how many signals are there on the track

[manic fjord]

0. But im gonna try the block signals.

Like along the straight track there are 0

[deft lichen]

so the entire thing is one block per rail?

block signals allow 1 train inside, period

[manic fjord]

yes... I thought signals only travelled a certain distance.

[deft lichen]

nope

[manic fjord]

oh.

Well, time to place signals

[deft lichen]

I suggest a 200-400 m distance between each, the minimum should be longer than your longest train

[frosty owl]

I haven't tried, but the example I described would make that happen if all my assumptions/knowledge are correct

The locomotive just cares about the current block, after all. If the train itself is longer than the block, other blocks get affected

[deft lichen]

makes sense

[vast jungle]

Yes they are .. unfortunately my multiplayer partner disagreed

[rustic patio]

A path signal only gives green light if the block signal after it is free

So a train shouldn't ever stop in a path signal unless the following block is very short

[rustic patio]

Which is another reason you should avoid them

[static pike]

Am I bad for misreading this as Meth and Matter?

[prisma kraken]

hiya Jinxed

[rustic patio]

ive given up, this is the best i can do
rate my power graph?

[oblique notch]

pretty sure the engine itself is the only thing that cares about what signal block it is in, but other trains will be alerted if cars are inside signal blocks. So yes, a train engine could stop inside the block following a path, and if the block is short enough still be inside that path

[rustic patio]

in what ways am i limited by quartz? i want to use COs for everything but im worried ill regret it later

[tropic hawk]

10/10

[rustic patio]

thx!

hey, ur good with nuclear, shoud i use uranium fuel rods or uranium fuel units?

the alt is obviously better, but im scared that update 8 will remove beacons and the recipe will be gone

[tropic hawk]

Quartz is used for Crystal Oscillators and Silica, however you dont really need either

[tropic hawk]

What are your constraints for the nuclear plant?

[rustic patio]

i havent starwted building anything for it yet, i want to use all the uranium in the world

im planning wayyyy ahead, so i have all options available

[tropic hawk]

Alright, and do you want to go for a simple plant, max power, Wasteless, or what?

[rustic patio]

wasteless max power

as much power as i can do without waste

[tropic hawk]

That would be a 252 Nuclear Plant with waste processing. You will want to use UFU because that is how you get to 50.4 rods/min

[rustic patio]

fun!

the chain that satisfactory tools recommends if you enable all recipes is very... interesting

[tropic hawk]

Yep!

[supple spire]

That amazing moment when your factory is running at 99% efficiency

[tropic hawk]

Amazing! just get that final 1%!

[supple spire]

its not possible

its only for my biomass machine

[tropic hawk]

No thats still possible

[supple spire]

nevermind it was possible i just needed to overclock something

[tropic hawk]

it usually is a clockspeed adjustment that is needed. bask in the flat power graph

[supple spire]

idk how that makes sense that im using 111kw even tho my max is 107.9kw

and also a max capacity of 300

[tropic hawk]

Max consumption is if all your machines were running at 100% efficiency at 100% clockspeed. so if you OC something, your current consumption can go above that. As for your max capacity vs current capacity (pun not intended) Biomass Burners are the only generator that scales with demand, so they can provide up to a limit

[supple spire]

oh ok

its just a basic lvl1 factory nothing special

it runs at 100% efficiency

so thats nice

[tropic hawk]

Nice!

[supple spire]

i wish i had a fixit cup rn

that would make this so much better lol

[supple spire]

dont mind the red things below the lookout thats still a wip

i just need to find a way to make that project 100% efficient

6 hrs to do that

[tropic hawk]

you can press H to remove whatever you are holding from your Field of View

[oblique notch]

Oh you sweet summer child. 🙂

[wind spade]

yeah, I never got the "you need cup to make good screenshot" approach

[tropic hawk]

shhh... they are unscarred for now....

[oblique notch]

I think the cup is just cause for the longest time it or a nut was thr least obtrusive thing to be holding that would be blocking your screeenshots.

That and the Officespace meme

[rustic patio]

Time to do some math

Okay, coal has an energy density of 300MJ per unit

Anthracite coal has an energy density of 30MJ per KG

So 1 unit of coal is 10kg

[gusty nexus]

well, we can assume that, but have no way of truly confirming

i assume energy density is not the same across every piece/variant of coal

[rustic patio]

Duh, I'm trying to calculate the environmental impact of a digital fuel on a digital world

Of course we have to make assumptions

And 1kg of carbon burns to 3.66kg of co2 apparently

[mystic moon]

Because oxygen is heavier than carbon slightly, so to turn c2 into 2x co2 you need 2x 02

[rustic patio]

and one coal gen takes 15 coal per minute to make 75mw

[muted crypt]

oh how I missed you, math and meta channel

I mean, um...

[chad doggo sneeze]

[rustic patio]

you add 7.32 kg of co2 to the atmosphere per minute for every mw of coal power

@rigid loom

[rigid loom]

ok

[fierce ruin]

2.5 turbo motors and 25 motors/ min will carry me through phase 4 right?

[cinder silo]

I wish H hid the hover pack remotes when in the air.

[frosty owl]

Yeah that's plenty. The only reason you might want more TMs would be to make more space elevator parts

I think 5 or 10 motors/min can suffice

[haughty roost]

Just a quick question, what would you say would be the best train-to-train-car ratio?

[mystic moon]

Really depends

[haughty roost]

Like right now I have a personal train that I use to drive around the map to build stuff, it has 4 trains and 6 train cars

[mystic moon]

1:3 works well, 1:4 if it's really flat or really long, 1:2 if it's really steep hills

1:4 is my preference

[mystic moon]

That's definitely past the point of diminishing returns

[haughty roost]

Alright, I was gonna add two more container cars but I just wanted to know what the best ratio should be

Glad to know it’s fine

[cinder silo]

If you can keep the rail completely flat you could have it as far as 1-6 or something, its the slopes that drag.

[mystic moon]

I mean theoretically 1 engine will get it there no matter what

But as your 400 cars show it can be pretty slow

[cinder silo]

I can testify to that after moving 400 cars with one loco, it takes 45+ minutes to coil up haha.

I was thinking in practical not extreme terms though 🙂

[mystic moon]

yeah

[cinder silo]

My 6 car train has two locos because it is a double end build since it is a shuttle type.

[haughty roost]

Alright, my personal train now has 8 container cars and 4 engines

2 on each side

Thanks for the help!

[fierce ruin]

i mean for the space elevato

[rustic patio]

Referring to this here

[rustic patio]

And this

[eternal vapor]

can someone help pls, i need to know what x is

[dense cave]

1760 = (11x+12+12x+86)*2

[eternal vapor]

ty

[oblique notch]

Um

[dense cave]

x = 34

[oblique notch]

Order of operations

[dense cave]

do you understand why?

[eternal vapor]

no lol

[oblique notch]

Eh. I guess it's the same.

[dense cave]

1. Perimeter is just the sum of the outside line right?
2. Its a quare, the fact that top right is stepped doesnt change anything in terms of perimeter

[mystic moon]

yeah it does

[oblique notch]

For area

[dense cave]

3. they always try to give you extra data

[oblique notch]

Not for square if the lines are all 90 turns

[dense cave]

dont confuse him with area

[oblique notch]

If you invert thr cut out it would be exactly like necroticman posted

[dense cave]

so if you look, one side of the square is on the bottom, its 11x +12

[eternal vapor]

*them

[dense cave]

then on the other side is 12x +86 for the total height

[oblique notch]

Yeah I was respond to flight, don't pay attention @eternal vapor to flight or me, Necrotic is right on track

[dense cave]

the top and left would be the same lengths as the ones you know

the 7x is there to throw you off

[eternal vapor]

ooooooh

[dense cave]

the step where it says 86 is also there to throw you off

it would be more complicated if they asked for area

but perimeter makes it easier

[oblique notch]

And you can verify this because all the corners have the 90* right angle symbol. (The square in the corner) indicating this is indeed a perfect square

[dense cave]

correct

[oblique notch]

(And my order of operations comment was because i too thought the question was area, not perimeter, and was expecting a multiplication in there.

Pays to read carefully)

[dense cave]

can anyone tell me the area?

[oblique notch]

Are you a teacher? Lol

[dense cave]

no, an engineer

so math is....life and torture

[mystic moon]

20468+157488

[dense cave]

no, as a formula

dont cheat lol

[mystic moon]

How is that cheating???

[dense cave]

😛

[mystic moon]

f(x)=(7x86)+(12x(11x+12))

[wind spade]

split to two rectangles, you know both their sides, calculate area of those rectangles

[dense cave]

Good, is there anyther way?

[mystic moon]

Yes

You can calculate the lengh of the left side and split it into a couple different patterns of rectangles

I would've multiplied that equation out to a polynomial but I'm lazy

[dense cave]

ya, just wanted to add for the original guy that you can split it into smaller rectangles like you did, but you can also substract

ie f(x) = (11x +12)(12x+86) - (86(11x+12-7x))

so like full square and substract the top right missing square

[oblique notch]

how did you just make me feel like i was 13 again in pre-calc/geometry? that was 27 friggin years ago

[mystic moon]

Yeah that's true

[dense cave]

lol

[arctic willow]

false; four right angles guarantees a rectangle but you also need four equal sides for a square

[oblique notch]

mmm fair point. Fair point. BUT a square is a rectangle, and the perimeter of the square formula is the same as one for a rectangle. So moot

[arctic willow]

all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares 😛

[oblique notch]

been a long time since ive done basic geometry lol.

im in the middle of BigO notations as usually the most complex math thing I do, and even that is... rare. Its not usually important for me to worry about an individual algorithms performance like that

[dense cave]

im sure there is several people going to wonder why we are talking about algebra when its a satisfactory channel

[oblique notch]

it is #math-and-meta so its not tooo bad :p

[stoic monolith]

did i do this right that 14 refinerys makeing 18.75 turbo full can supply 58 genarators at base clock

[deft lichen]

14*18.75 = 262.5 m3 turbofuel/min
262.5/4.5 = 58.33 generators

yes, you're overproducing a little, so you can build a 59th generator and clock it to 33.3333%

[stoic monolith]

cool thanks

[wispy tiger]

Can a packager loop get jammed up if you feed excess containers into it? Using them for water for a diluted fuel refinery setup

[cinder silo]

I have had some lockups as described in a packager setup, however in my case it was way back in update 3.

[cinder silo]

One way to sort it is have an inline storage container, then keep adding containers to the loop until it flows freely and keeps the machines busy.

Or because sometimes I'm a fucking idiot and not thinking, have a smart splitter that can overflow in to a container to prevent lockups.

[wispy tiger]

Okay, that makes sense

Just want to leave at least one container constructor in so my trucks don't eat my loop out of functionality lol

[cinder silo]

I apologise for the disjointed comment though, until the last moment I forgot about smart splitter diverting overflow.

[mellow mortar]

can anyone tell why its splitting the Circuid board production up like this? https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=bizND8kqGTwlYlqfn6BG

[frosty owl]

Wdym? There's just one node making Circuit Boards

[mellow mortar]

one with the alternate recipe and one with the normal recipe

[frosty owl]

Didn't notice the alt, my bad.
That's very much normal. You asked the planner to make the maximum amount of supercomputers from the aviable resources. This was the way the planner found to make the most Circuit Boards possible in order to achieve that

[mellow mortar]

but one of the recipes has to be cheaper, so why doesn't it just make more plastic or more rubber? why does it split it up that wierdly

[frosty owl]

Because given the resources aviable this is the the only way to make enough CBs for your production.
You could make all the boards using a single recipe, but that obviously wouldn't leave enough resources to turn all those CBs into supercomputers.

In other words: you have a lot of oil, the planner is making use of that to make some CBs and save on copper

[mellow mortar]

but i also have a lot of copper 🙂

[rustic patio]

the planner uses the most efficient way, if you dont want that tell it to use different recipes

figuring out what alts are good for you is very fun, id recommend doing that instead of blindly following the planner

[eternal vapor]

i am still confused

nvm, x=32

[wind spade]

because it's limited by oil

[oblique notch]

Hey great! You got it 🙂

[frosty owl]

You're right. But adding what @wind spade said to the small amount of alt recipes you have active makes it so that that is the best way to make the most supercomputers
eg: having recycled rubber + diluted fuel would allow you to use all the copper for CBs as you'd have much more plastic/rubber to play with. Atm, the planner is simply using a part of the byproduct heavy oil to make some more Circuit Boards

[eternal vapor]

this is the 3rd generation of this question (it changes every time you get it wrong twice) and i need help

[wind spade]

fyi this is not a math channel, it's a satisfactory-related-math channel

[eternal vapor]

😦

[wind spade]

(and if you're doing homework or something, maybe you want to learn it yourself instead of asking random people to do it for you?)

also the way to solve these is to simply make two variables with two equations

(x - 9) * 3 = y
x * -3 + 15 = y

and solve that

[zinc crater]

You just did the work for them, after chastising them about it? 🤨

[wind spade]

no I didn't?

I didn't provide a solution and basically just wrote down what is on the screenshot, just used x and y instead of input and output

[oblique notch]

for what its worth, @NecroticMan walked them through the how last night

well... not of that question doh.

but i am in agreement with you. Learn the how, not just the answer.

because the answer is meaningless without the how.

is it bad tho i looked at that and saw z(x-3)+16=y? because ... i havent used x for multiplication in... decades.

[ocean sluice]

how do i split off 200 items of off 340 items?

(no i cannot mainfoild)

[wind spade]

why can't you manifold tho? 🤔

[ocean sluice]

trains...

[wind spade]

wdym by that?

[primal flicker]

Good luck doing a 10+7 split.

[rustic patio]

can you explain the whole setup to us?

if there is a wall infront of you, looking for a sledge hammer to break it down is not always the best option

sometimes you should just take the door

[ocean sluice]

factory makes 340 circuit board
other factory/train station needs 200

[rustic patio]

just send a train there and take out the circuit boards?

[wind spade]

in the factory, merge buildings so that you have 200 on one belt

[ocean sluice]

anways i sorta solved it by splitting 218 circuit boards into the staton and adding a smart splitter

it should work

[rustic patio]

why even split stuff?

[wind spade]

much simpler is to just merge 200

[rustic patio]

if the factory needs 200, just make a belt from the train station to the factory and it will take 200/min from the train

and 140/min will be left in the train

[ocean sluice]

each machine produces 31.25 circuit boards

[wind spade]

underclock to match ratio

[rustic patio]

why wouldnt that work?

[ocean sluice]

cause i will need more stations later for my computer factory

[rustic patio]

okay?

[ocean sluice]

ok now i just feel dumb

[ocean sluice]

uhh belt speed ig?

[rustic patio]

if one station takes out 200/min then 140/min will be left inside

the other station can just take the 140/min

[ocean sluice]

right... i sorta need to not use sushi trains just to keep the time on the network low
so 1 train per factory is what i do

[rustic patio]

im not telling you to do sushi trains

[frosty owl]

I thought about it though

[rustic patio]

lol

anyway, you dont need to load balance the output of trains

just manifold it

[ocean sluice]

*input

[rustic patio]

what

in what world would you need to loadbalance the input of a train?

especially if its 340/min

just put all the circuitboards into on trainstation?

[ocean sluice]

cause i need over 1 train

[rustic patio]

why?

[ocean sluice]

anyways its fixed now

[rustic patio]

why do you need more than one train?

[rustic patio]

that doesnt answer my question

thats just a screenshot of the train user interfac, i already know what it looks like

[wind spade]

even if you wait for full load, that still means nothing. Machines only take what they need so eventually it would take 200/min

[rustic patio]

yes thats what ive been saying

just manifold it

and you dont need more than one train, you will have enough throughput as long as the trains arrives more often than once every 18 minutes

and leuss often than once every 35 seconds

[ocean sluice]

fine....
its fixed anyways

[vague pawn]

is there any need for a large iron plate factory? im pretty early game, just unlocked advanced steel so i can use mark 2 miners and am currently building a large reinforced iron, rotor and modular frames factory. i have 2 full containers of steel plates at my stater base and dont seem to use them too much. will i need alot in midgame-endgame or not? thanks

[frosty owl]

There is no special need for them, but you can definetly do things with the excess like... More coupons!

[vague pawn]

haha ye that was the plan just wanted to be sure i wasnt fucking myself over for later by not building a big factory for it

[wind spade]

easiest is to not plan for future and build more in future if you need more 😛

[vague pawn]

ye i think im a bit to worried about whats too come. im just gonna make what i need and try not to end up with too much spaghetti

[wind spade]

unless you know exactly your plan for whole game, you can't really prepare for future

[rustic patio]

you can, just build 100 times more than what you need :p

[wind spade]

not really

in most cases it'll be too little or too much

[rustic patio]

i know, im joking

building 1000 HMF per minute isnt very realistic

[ocean sluice]

not really...
only like 1 item uses plates in that stage

(and 2 in end game)

[wind spade]

there's like 50 buildables that need plates

[ocean sluice]

not production items....

[wind spade]

production items are irrelevant

"producing plates" was the question

so I assume it's for storage for personal use

[vague pawn]

yeah for other stuff i can just make on sight

[rustic patio]

sushi, what do u think about this?

@frosty owl

[frosty owl]

Any left-over higher than 100/min I wouldn't merge with factory output.
For those below 400/min, I would maybe make a dedicated overflow belt.
But copper and Plastic could use a whole train for their leftover management

[rustic patio]

plastic gets brought in by trains, so i can just leave the leftover in the train

wait i need to look something up

okay so

i will use all of the iron to make copper alloy

[frosty owl]

||Don't expect quick answers and do add pings if you wish to sustain convo. I'm traveling and with little internet atm||

[frosty owl]

What's the preference over pure copper? No need for water?

[rustic patio]

i need to use up my iron, and it uses way less energy/space than the pure recipe

plus i think theres enough copper on the map that i wont ever run out of it

i plan to use iron wire, so my only use for copper is copper sheet and quickwire

and nuclear pasta

[frosty owl]

The latter is the thing that can use tons of copper, but it sounds like you got this figured out

Is something bugging you about your factory plan still?

[rustic patio]

not done yet

holy fuck im doing gigabrain stuff

im squeezing this place so hard

i love this game

@frosty owl

okay, some of it were rounding errors because i didnt use super accurate numbers

in the end it will look like this

only thing left over is 26.6 limestone, everything else is used up

(i dont count rubber and plastic as leftovers because im importing them by train, so i can just leave them inthe train to be used elsewhere later)

@wind spade what do u think?

[vague thorn]

I've done Coal Power on Crater Lake, Fuel Power off of Gold Coast, what would the thoughts be on 540GW Zero Waste Nuclear next?

[rustic patio]

sounds great

[frosty owl]

HoW cOuLd MaTh Be FuN?!? :O

[frosty owl]

... Mix the leftover with the plastic? 🤔
I mean, really, I think it's easiest to merge it so that it goes wherever you could use it most (does it make more sense to have limestone with HMFs or with plastic, for you uses...?)

[rustic patio]

idk, i think ill just sink the 26.6 limestone

or underclocke the miner, sinki;ng 26.6 limestone probably isnt worth the 30mw lol

doing sushi stuff jsut to save a bit of limestone doesnt seem worth it to me yk

im just not quite sure how to sink the quickwire

computers or circuit boards?