math-and-meta

[noble current]

ok

[oblique notch]

the use for a smart splitter in a balancer is to protect against the odd case of lag/hitch/ect that may cause a bit extra to come down the belt and upset the balance.

its a redundancy piece, not an essential part

[neon wraith]

my piece if more complex, and doesn't work like that

is there a way to place down something Auto colored? I was able to some how do it for Concrete walls, but id like to lay down blue pipes

so I don't have to go back and paint

[tropic hawk]

change pipeline swatch in the customizer

however this is a global effect, so be aware of that

[noble current]

right click on the color and select - in your case "pipes" and then just place the walls

[neon wraith]

yea Just want to do it for my water pipes

[noble current]

ye, it does only apply for the pipes you place afterwards

[neon wraith]

damn

[noble current]

and when you change it, it also apply only for those pipes after wards

[oblique notch]

and they are properly linked to that swatch then, so if you change your swatch, it changes all the pipes that were placed with that one

[neon wraith]

yea

I set it up so my 2nd Custome swatch is for water pipes

[oblique notch]

add a helper block to your BP then - i a lot of times build my bps on top of an 8m foudnation, expecting that ill place a guide block below that point so it will line up properly, then remove the guide block and the 8m foundation together

[neon wraith]

cant use BP as water wheels won't go in them anymore

[neon wraith]

OH nm you meant for my road lol

[oblique notch]

lol

[neon wraith]

I can try that

I'm working on to many things at once

trying to get my 2nd row of nukes up today

Then need to get my battery production up to like 1000 p/m

[oblique notch]

yeah heh. Like this one is the base that goes around my Miners - it has a second blueprint that fits right in the center that the miner will get placed on, but that means I cant use the world grid - I have to have it lined up to how the miner will go. So the column and the beam help align to what i want.

I usually place a miner, then ctrl place a column on either side and one in the front (so they go on the snap grid lines) raise those three pillars up to a 2 or 3 height, remove the miner, then place this down and line up the pillar in the middle with the two side pillars and the one from the front with the beam

then i remove the beam and the piller, slot the second blueprint into the middle, carefully, and then place the miner inside that

[neon wraith]

interesting

[oblique notch]

or this one - see the 8m foundation on the bottom? Its exactly center of the blueprint. I have another blueprint that is just 1x foundation that I put where i want, one 8m foundation down, oriented in the direction i want. Then using blueprint snapping, snap this right ontop of that. Perfect alignment, every time

[pulsar viper]

Is there a way to import what alternate recipes I have into satisfactory-calculator?

[south walrus]

I'm trying to decide between the pure iron ingot alt and the Infused Uranium Cell. Is the IUS recipe good for nuclear power or should I pass on it?

[median heath]

Infused.

All of the alts for the Uranium production line are "better" to use.

[south walrus]

Would it be more worth it than pure iron though?

[oblique notch]

Mmm, not sure on Calculator, but SFTools yes

[pulsar viper]

It seems like SFTools hasn't been updated for update 6 nor experimental 7

Is it still worth using?

[uncut sigil]

No recipes have changed, so yes, it is.

[oblique notch]

other than nuclear

but thats just the amount of water - and it does have U6, look in the upper right

[south walrus]

I think I will go with the infused recipe because my factory building style typically does not need massive amounts of material, and I would like to keep my nuclear setup (once I build it) as efficient as possible.

[median heath]

Pure Iron is a red herring imo.
There is over 70k iron available using solely the base recipe.

[pulsar viper]

Do most people around here use SFTool or calculator?

[median heath]

Tools >

[cinder silo]

Tools 👍

[short yoke]

hey guys i just got to phase 4, what are some good but sane production numbers for the four final items so i can base my production on?

i was thinking 40/min ASD, 40/min MFG, 10/min TPR, 10/min NP

but when i put that into satisfactory calculator, it was not that sane haha

[uncut sigil]

I think I did 2 machines each, then got impatient and build more nuclear pasta until everything was done.

[frosty owl]

Defining the issue in "how many machines manking end-tier product" you wish to make can be a good start ^^

[uncut sigil]

And if you leave extra space in your builds you can always expand once you're done with the minimum.

[short yoke]

hmm ok thats fair, i always try to break down into the per min numbers, but machine numbers works too

[uncut sigil]

If you set stuff up as soon as you unlock it, it's not too bad. ASDs have low productions, but by the time I was through all the milestones they were a good part done.

[frosty owl]

There's a lot of "per/min numbers" to be broken down along the processing line once you decide how many end-machines to make

[short yoke]

where can i find the total number of nodes in the map per resource? i want to know if my crazy plan is possible

[short yoke]

thats the fun part

[neon wraith]

https://satisfactory-calculator.com/en/interactive-map#4.25;-64462;-244729|gameLayer|limestonePure;ironPure;copperPure;cateriumPure;coalPure;oilPure;hardDrives

you can see how many nodes here on the map

right side, click resource nodes tells you how many of each

[short yoke]

thanks!

bout to start my crazy era

[frosty owl]

#math-and-meta message

[uncut sigil]

Also, Satisfactory Tools lets you set productions from map limits

[neon wraith]

I've been working on Nuclear for ages

[frosty owl]

Literally same

[neon wraith]

thanks for that

i like how Iron isn't on that list

[uncut sigil]

Was going to do nuclear, got sidetracked by control rods and got sidetracked into setting up an entire ADS factory. Still working on the caterium for all that 😛

[frosty owl]

It's in alphabetic order. Iron is after Crude Oil

[neon wraith]

I just made a location i Train ALL caterium too, then It's refined and turned into quick wire

OHH, was odd seeing two diffrent ores lol

[short yoke]

i have made a spaghetti for unlocking the stuff and now the new organized mega factory will begin

[crystal venture]

I unlocked oil days ago but I don't even have plastic going where it needs to be yet because I'm busy setting up trains to transport all the oil products to their various locations

[neon wraith]

To max plastic, you have to turn some to rubber, to recyle it back into plastic... it's a CRAZY set up

[crystal venture]

you can turn plastic into rubber?

[neon wraith]

There is an ALT recipe that lets you recycle it

[crystal venture]

oh nice

atm I'm just using extra stuff to power my base

since I don't have nuclear

[neon wraith]

i now have 18 Silo's up

I need to get my Drones, so i can get more Uranium now

[neon wraith]

ok im trying my BP again with keys

Aww ya, you B E A UITFUL basturd @oblique notch

Connects like a Charm now

[oblique notch]

😀 definitely one of the secrets I've learned, and as the snapping gets easier this just gets more powrful

[vapid gorge]

That's because that's a huge amount xD I think that's 1/3 the possible world output of those items

[short yoke]

yeah i settled with 15, 15, 5, 5

seems like the saner option but still a challenge

[ornate nimbus]

hello

me and my friend need help setting up a motor factory

we currently have a pure iron node with an mk2 miner (max level we have) to produce 480 p/m, which we've already load balanced + finished setting up for smelting

actually nvm, we figured it out

[wind spade]

uhh, load balancing 🤢

[cinder silo]

Works for rad-haz, needlessly complex for everything else.

[sand epoch]

I prefer a manifold load balance combo. 😉

[wind spade]

I prefer direct input

[sand epoch]

Na, boring. Lol

[short yoke]

Manifold + leaving the game open overnight so the production can catch up is the best way

[wind spade]

uhh, I'd never leave game running overnight lol

[cinder silo]

I'd rather not leave my game running overnight but alas, someone has to run experiments on game mechanics.

[wind spade]

I mean that's something different

I'm talking about "run game overnight because low resources"

at that point you can just cheat them in I guess

[cinder silo]

True.

[oblique notch]

why?

The only limiting factor in SF is time. it always has been. If you have enough time you can unlock all the way to t8 with just one machine producing every recipe you need. It would take a long while, but you could do it. Hell if you really had a lot of time, you could eventually unlock t8 with more than 1 of each machine type and a lot of storage units.

[wind spade]

it's also part of the challenge. If you have low production, the solution isn't to wait for enough resources but to expand the production. If you want to just afk for 8 hours for the purpose of getting resources, adding 8 hours worth of production to your storage via save editor results in the same effect

[oblique notch]

This is true... but to each their own. I don't leave my game running either, I just take my time building something while resources build up.

But to each their own, yah?

[wind spade]

that's why I started this with "I wouldn't" 🤷‍♂️

[crystal venture]

The fluid freight platforms give transfer rate in items per minute same as non fluids. Is this in m^3?

[magic island]

yeah

1 m³ of fluid = 1 item in every sense that the game is concerned with, guess there's just an oversight with those platforms

[wind spade]

not really, game counts fluids in liters, not m3s

just shows m3 to people

[noble current]

if I have like, 2 constructors creating iron rods, 5 creating screws and 4 creating iron plates, as well as having the exact input of ingots - can I just run them in a manifold setup, or is it better to actually split the belts into whatever each group of products requires?

[cinder silo]

Seems weird liquids being measured in cubic metres, it's like saying number of bathtubs full, I get it with gases but not so much with liquids.

[steel elk]

liters would be better

oh man setting up the reactors is going to be fun

48 uranium and 12 plutonium from two 600/min uranium things

then i drone the waste to the edge of the map

and pray it never fills up

[sand epoch]

Dont use the plutonium, sink it :/

[steel elk]

oh

i see

[fierce cypress]

making plut waste is for psychopaths

[crystal venture]

I unlocked recycled rubber and was running through some calculations for using it when I've got 600m^3 of oil producing plastic, and I from what I'm seeing it seems that if I want to use all of the fuel from the oil residue to make recycled rubber, its going to use all of the plastic originally produced. Does this mean that to have no waste and no fuel left over I can only have rubber or plastic, but not both?

wait nvm

I messed up my calculations

[strong loom]

You want to use the "Heavy Oil Residue" recipe, convert the polymer to rubber, HOR to fuel and cycle from rubber to plastic and back to rubber using that fuel

[fierce cypress]

the max oil:plastic/rubber you can achieve is 1:3

[noble current]

if I feed in the exact amount of ingots, would this still work?

or do I need to set them up differently?

[wind spade]

manifolds always work normally 🤷‍♂️

if you feed X, the machines will get X

[noble current]

I just feared the machines would get them irregularly

[wind spade]

over time it stabilises

[noble current]

I see..

[oblique notch]

it starts off rough because it equally divides on the splitter.

so your first machines in the line, they first ones on either side get 1/3rd of all the ingots first each, and only 1/3rd moves on to the remaining 4 machines... and again, only 1/3rd of that will move on to the last 2 machines.

UNTIL the hoppers on those first machines are full, because they are obviously receiving more than they need per minute. Once the hoppers a full, all but what the machine needs will go down the center belt, and start to fill up the hoppers of those... ect

you can "prime" it by just filling the machines with iron ingots at the start if you want.

[noble current]

someone actually helped me into splitting the initial 455/min into what each machine group needed to get (rods 60/min total, plates 270/min total, screws 125/min total).

luckily had enough room for load balancing underneath left and rearranged the groups accordingly.

tho still thanks!

[oblique notch]

sure. Id recomend staying away from load balancing in general though. Manifolds work just fine and are 100 times easier. Turn it on, walk away to do something else, come back in 30 mins or an hour (depending on how big oyur manifold is and what your producing) and make sure its filling up (if its not you have too few items coming in).

But you do you!

[noble current]

why staying away from load balancing?

[oblique notch]

It's finicky, it takes a lot more time, and a lot more math.

I mean stay away for now until you're super comfortable with the rest of the game and ratios.

Like for me, on my 7th world, I'm load balancing because it looks cool 😎 but it can be a bitch

[unborn ermine]

in the end its "less clicks"

[cinder silo]

Small load balances have a degree of architectural charm, huge ones, well I use one for nuclear fuel rod distribution only, I'm mostly a manifold user unless it's a rad-haz issue, I load balance that shit.

[oblique notch]

It's an added complexity you don't need to do, but one some do for the added challenges

[oblique notch]

Yeah this is a good point too

When trying to load balance 3xmk5 belts into like 20 sections or something is... ugghhh

It's one thing taking 360 input and load balancing it down to 15/min (as thats just several 2 split divides in a tree) its another trying to do a 1:17 or something

[arctic willow]

main reason i do a bunch of load balancing - i enjoy it 😃

(and yeah, if i'm splitting 600 copper into 40 refineries then i ain't gonna wait for a month for everything to catch up)

(you don't even need to fully balance it - i balance that down to 8 groups of 5 and manifold the rest)

[tawdry sail]

That's an excellent point in a game

[tropic hawk]

Copper ingots don't take that long to saturate, in my opinion only parts with a low throughput or something you do NOT want saturated at a location should be load balanced.

[frosty pawn]

if you enjoy load balancing, go do it and have fun! if you do load balancing just because you think you have to; stop that! it's wasting valuable time. go spend the time doing something useful or fun instead. manifold will be making stuff in the mean time.

[gusty nexus]

is it more energy-efficient to over/underclock multiple machines, or to do as much over/underclocking as possible on one machine?

[frosty pawn]

underclock is more efficient

however its usually best to just keep everything at 100% because its easier in many ways

[gusty nexus]

no, i mean, if i need 5.4 machines' worth of production, do i make 6 machines all do 90% or just make one machine do 40%

[frosty pawn]

eg if you need 6.5 machines, make 7 machines and set the last one to 50%

[median heath]

6 at 90

[frosty pawn]

underclocking all of them to 90% will save more power

tbh not worth the effort imo

[gusty nexus]

ok, that's what i was looking for, though obviously adjusting production to better match the ratios involved is ultimately more effective

[frosty pawn]

bear in mind underclock/overclock power ratios will change soon

[median heath]

Effort?
Copy/paste

[frosty pawn]

it will likely be the same answer but less savings

[median heath]

It is the same answer with less savings, can confirm.

[frosty pawn]

and then unlock more stuff and go back and check all your calculations when you have to expand factory

[median heath]

Huh?

Oh, I forget people try to build permanent stuff before the game actually starts..

[frosty pawn]

everyone is different 😛

[median heath]

That's what makes us all the same 😉

[oblique notch]

it just gives them a higher cap. it does not change anything in terms of their consumption rate. Before they were consuming at 200% and producing 200% more power, and that was the cap. now they have a max cap of 250%, instead. If you go through and set all your existing powerplants to 200% instead of 250% you will (practically) the exact same consumption and production (i say practically because before 250% was something like 202%(?) consumption/production or something like that)

[median heath]

Not what he meant.

Production machines and OC.
They adjusted the formula so that OC doesn't cost as much power and UC doesn't save as much.

[frosty pawn]

we were talking about production buildings, not power buildings 😛

power buildings are now linear in u7 i think

[oblique notch]

ah, well my "point"(?) such as it was still stands in that there isnt anything anyone needs to change with those changes.

[oblique notch]

they always were

they just didnt display that way.

[frosty pawn]

ok but still, power building OC changes are done, production building changes are still on the way

[gusty nexus]

oh yeah, the changes to generator OC are what i recall seeing

[oblique notch]

sure sure... but only thing it may effect is if you UC'd all your buildings and were right at your power cap, you'd have to shut down a few things until yo u can build more powerplants. Its not going to inherently break any factories as long as you're careful what you shut down.

[gusty nexus]

are they changing production OC to increase power consumption linearly as well?

[oblique notch]

pretty certain, assuming my memory isnt failing, that the answer is no.

it was talked about as a possible idea and decided not to do so. They may change their minds of course, but for the time being, no

[frosty pawn]

not the same way as power buildings, but less of a curve than they currently are. they said something like you will get less benefit from underclocking

[oblique notch]

still an exponential curve, just a more gentle one.

[gusty nexus]

ok that makes sense, smooth out both ends

[frosty pawn]

AFAIK they havent settled on a new formula yet

[gusty nexus]

how do you deal with fuel generator instability? i currently have ~73 fuel generators running and i see ~10% of them turning on and off due to insufficient resources

[oblique notch]

... build more production?

[frosty pawn]

wait for them to fill with coal and water before you plug the cables in

[oblique notch]

turn off the power generators that are flickering, and wait for the others to fill?

[gusty nexus]

oil fuel, not coal

[oblique notch]

same thing

[gusty nexus]

i did that earlier today, let everything fill to 50 before turning off and waiting until everything was full, but they seem to empty out again

[oblique notch]

ithe pipes gotta be full (not full flow rate just full by volume and their fill indicator) and the gens should be turned on one at a time until they are running full before turnning the next one

[frosty pawn]

if they start full and then go empty you have a bottleneck somewhere

maybe a bad pipe connection?

[oblique notch]

then you arent producing enough, or you are using more than your pipes can provide

mk1 or mk2 pipes?

[gusty nexus]

i have access to mk2 but plug in multiple pipes at multiple junctions/ends to prevent chokepoint problems

is there still rounding errors with pipe flow or something?

also one of my setups is like 40m above the ground so does that cause problems even with mk2 pumps?

[oblique notch]

:blink: i didnt curse. (bot got a message of mine that confused me)

[oblique notch]

yes, but unless you are trying to consume all 600 on a single line without a loopback you wont see it

[oblique notch]

no, as long as you have proper headlift above that point

which 1 mk2 pump should be able to provide 40m of lift (if i recall correctly mk2 is 50m of lift)

[frosty pawn]

if youre worried about a particular pump's headlift, go press E on it and check the headlift thingy

[oblique notch]

you can also go to place a new pump and look for the headlift indicator

[gusty nexus]

wait, do you put pumps at the top or bottom?

[oblique notch]

always at the bottom

[gusty nexus]

ok, the way you worded confused me a bit

does the angle of the pipe affect the pump lift?

[oblique notch]

and dont cluster them together. You should only put a mk2 pump ever 50m of height (there is a snap point indicator on pipes where you need the next one)

[oblique notch]

no, its pure height from source

[oblique notch]

this part concerns me though. There isnt a thing of "chokepoint" with pipes

[gusty nexus]

is there a bot or something to double-check my math, rather than bothering you guys

[oblique notch]

!sftools

lol no, not a command apparently. SF tools

https://u6.satisfactorytools.com/

what kind of fuel are you providing to your generator?

[gusty nexus]

just regular fuel, no modifications

i've done very little with sulfur so far, just unlocked t7 and am working towards the hoverpack

[oblique notch]

one fuel generator at 100% uses 12m3 of fuel per minute. If yourre on u7 the calculations are easy, just multiple 12* OC value of generators (2.5 for 250%) * number of generators for the amount of fuel you need.

If you are u6 still, its a bit more complex, you can look at https://satisfactory.fandom.com/wiki/Fuel_Generator this wiki page for what OC values mean in terms of fuel used

[gusty nexus]

i'm on u7 experimental

[oblique notch]

then yeah, its very easy. 12*2.5*generators, or 30fuel min per generator if oc'd at 250%

[gusty nexus]

so with the new generator OC ratios, there's no difference between building multiple underclocked generators and overclocking one?

[mystic moon]

Yep

[oblique notch]

never was in the first place

[gusty nexus]

well, other than using a shard

[oblique notch]

fuel is always consumed linear - just the display was off.

the previous generator were capped at 200% for 250% oc, they just used a weird calcualtion, but in U6 a 250% generator was the same as 2x 100% generators. They just basically removed that cap and cleared it up, so 1 250% generator now equals 2.5 generators... fuel generated per power produced does not change, in either update. 1m3 fuel ~= 12.5 mw

(not including supporting structures to generate the fuel of course)

[scenic smelt]

how am I meant to split rods to get 4/5 of one going towards modular frames

[oblique notch]

well, first you have to ask do you really care to spend all the work on a 4/5 split or do you just want to manifold it?

[scenic smelt]

good point if I knew what manifolding was

[oblique notch]

cause i wont say "just manifold it" cause that doesnt really answer your question, but it is an alternative.

basically, just put a split in the line. Even though too much is going one direction, the line will eventually saturate and allt he extra will go the other way.

[scenic smelt]

thats what I thought about doing too

or just putting it at 80% bc I dont care about 3 rods per minute

[oblique notch]

if all you want is 100% efficiency in your buildings, then this will achieve it assuming you have enough input to match what is being used. it will leave a lot of belts sitting still while it waits for an opening to push items in, which some people dont like

[scenic smelt]

nah thats fine

[oblique notch]

and you can - once you have smart splitters - overflow the rest into a sink

[scenic smelt]

thatd be cool

[oblique notch]

caterium tree in the MAM

[scenic smelt]

yea ive unlocked it

[gusty nexus]

fixed it! i singled out the row of generators that wasn't getting enough juice and mk2'd the main pipeline feeding that row

[noble current]

so, both mk4 carry 240, merging -> 480, correct?

I don't know if it's because of the throughput bug, but it keeps clogging up at the merger

[frosty pawn]

yes, 2x mk4 carrying 240 each should be able to merge into 1x mk4 carrying 480
i dunno about throughput bug

[noble current]

I know from people here, who reported about a throughput issue for the mk5 as well as the mk4

[frosty pawn]

if its a new bug i can only assume css are working on it and should have a fix soon

jace knows about it, chat told him on twitch so he will ask the devs. im sure they already knew from QA site though

[noble current]

the mk4 one is kinda new from what I've heard of, the mk5 has been around for longer

[cinder silo]

The mk4 thing improved as of the latest patch though, and single segment (hell belt to belt in general) is greatly improved, mergers still bottleneck at high throughputs though as shown here.

[noble current]

I assume high througputs would be considered my 240/min + 240/min merge onto the mk4?

[cinder silo]

The experiment shown in the clip is 270+480 feeding on to a 780 belt, there should be 30 parts per minute leeway, and the single section mk5 situation is allowing full throughput, so the cause remains at the merger and how it sorts the order of parts from the feed belts.

[noble current]

so it seems more like a merger/splitter issue than a belt issue?

[cinder silo]

Just merger as far as I can tell, splitters have been pretty well behaved.

[oblique notch]

This was fixed in thr last patch

Well, I guess there is still a .0000016% or something backup but... lol for all intents and purposes fixed 🤣

Ah dang it discord didn't scroll again, sorry. Taro already said that

[noble current]

wait - did the fix came in the past 24hrs?

[oblique notch]

Yes

[noble current]

well yea, then it's a me-problem

[oblique notch]

Yesterday, about 230pm EST the patch dropped

[noble current]

ye didn't got that one yet

[oblique notch]

Oops, didn't update? Left the game running?

[frosty pawn]

playing for more than 24 hours is a normal thing with this game lol

[noble current]

ye I mostly play evening through nights, then keep falling asleep while building - on the plus side: I keep generating items

[frosty pawn]

playing at night has the opposite effect for me. i stay awake stupid long

[oblique notch]

Hah
Yeah probably not a bad idea to restart every time you wake-up then. If not for patches, then for any thing that is a small tiny rounding error that adds up bit is cleared on reload

And by small I mean would take a few days to see an effect.

[cinder silo]

I'm pretty happy at the fix being as is 🙂 , it eliminates just about all of the problems in my entire build.

Next time I have a factory completely seize though I'll clip its restart, it'll demonstrate in the wild the merger thing that can cause issues in very few cases.

[vapid gorge]

Oh nice. There was no way they were going to release u7 with that bug

[oblique notch]

as I said, many times 😁

everyone was all "but theyre silent or uzu said" but ... comeon. Seriously? people noticed it was bad enough for not just the tippy top of ultra efficiency builders to notice. that puts it pretty high priority :p

[vapid gorge]

Oh yeah, people were talking east 30+ drop offs. That’d kill so many things

[oblique notch]

if you're intersted the #1006573529183027401 thread has an explination as best as i understood it when i asked about it

[vapid gorge]

U7 seems to be a much more wild ride than previous Us

[oblique notch]

as to what was causing the bug. sure my context is off slightly, but i think it makes enough sense

[vapid gorge]

Though it’s Anecdotal observation

[oblique notch]

lots of optimization and prep for 1.0 - lot of tech debt being addressed id guess

bound to have some side effects

[vapid gorge]

Oooh nice. I was planning a read through in the next few days there: lots of chatter lately

[vapid gorge]

I really hope they aren’t under the gun to rush the game out

Like honestly I’m pretty happy with the game as is but extra polish and some more tech wouldn’t be bad

Oh and optimize the crap out of it

[oblique notch]

doubt it. i think that the team in general feels like they should be pushing for 1.0 and working toward it, rather than just adding new features

thats the impression i get from the dev streams

not that there is a deadline, just... Lets get this buttoned up and feel good about it as a whole before we consider too many major new things. I expect every major update to still have a couple of new things until 1.0 (like the BPD!) but you know... nothing as big as ... say adding Pipes lol

[frosty pawn]

would be nice if they get UE5 in 1.0 just for the modular gameplay features thing so after that all the updates/dlc can be toggled on and off independently and the main game can be kept up to date separately. i suppose it would also make modding easier since they would not have to update mods just because the game's version number changes

[vapid gorge]

I’m under the impression changing the entire engine of a game is hard

Unless there’s specifically something about ue4 to 5 that is straightforward?

[cinder silo]

Game engines aren't known for being easy to change, you have to migrate assets (not always scriptable) and hopefully not bork data while you're at it, sometimes the underlying systems aren't the same so you have to remake what makes the game work from the ground up.

[vapid gorge]

Yeah pretty much. I’m curious how hard it’d be on the engine dev side to make things easier to migrate between versions

[cinder silo]

That would be a huge and complicated script that tries to anticipate every trick a game dev would use, I wouldn't want to be in the shoes of the engine developer with a project like that.

[noble current]

why do decimals exist?

[vapid gorge]

Decimals are a construct that exist because we attempt to create distinct units for things that just exist

[oblique notch]

yah. You actually can't have .5 of something. You either have something, or you broke it half and have 2 (broken) somethin 🙂

[mystic moon]

.5 kilos

[oblique notch]

but we gotta be able to say 2 for every 3 somehow

[oblique notch]

a kilo is not something. it is a measurement

i mean you cant really have half a toaster. you either have a toaster, or you have two pieces of a broken toaster.

[noble current]

a kilo is actually, if we take things literally, a thousand

[vapid gorge]

A kilo is a construct :p

[oblique notch]

a kilo is arbitrary, ephemeral. It means something by common consent, but it is not anything other than the value we assign to it.

A toaster is an actual object.

[noble current]

what people refer to "a measurement" is the kilogramm, which are a thousand gramm

[oblique notch]

i can give you a toaster. I can't give you a Kilo of (nothing)

[noble current]

/runs

[oblique notch]

🤣

fair, but by common consent again a kilo is most often in reference to a kg

[noble current]

not in my consent

[vapid gorge]

There’s infinite nothings. You can easily give a kilo of nothings

[oblique notch]

then you, Ana, are just uncommon. 😉

[noble current]

being objectively true Nodders

[oblique notch]

nooowww ere getting into philosophy

[noble current]

@oblique notch in fact, I am rare EZ

[oblique notch]

anwyays in this its actually easy. You can jsut take the easy route - you need 20.444 machines? build 21 machines and set the 21st to 44.4 % underclock

[vapid gorge]

Well there’s infinite infinites. Pretty sure there can be infinite independent nothings

[vapid gorge]

Shhhhh! No! Don’t enrage the decimal beast!

[noble current]

ye, this is the part that keeps bothering me and idk why it does

[oblique notch]

except the definition of Nothing is the absence of things, and so if you have no things, you can not give things cause you have none. So you cannot give nothings.

See? philosophy 🙂

[noble current]

am I correct that only 1 manufactor fits into the BP designer?

[oblique notch]

you could also take 20.44 and divide by 20, and set all your machines to that. - so set all your machines to 102.2% oc would be exactly 20 machines to produce the same amount (oops wrong reply)

[vapid gorge]

Nah just maths. You can have as many sets of Nothing as you like 🙂

[oblique notch]

we've left the real world again and gone into conceptual constructs, as Zero/Null is a construct 😉

[vapid gorge]

xD

[oblique notch]

lol

[oblique notch]

yes

[oblique notch]

or, if you dont want to do 20 machines at 102.2% you could do 20.44/21 and est all your 21 machines to 97.3333%

[noble current]

damn, they should make them bit smaller so at least 2 could fit /:

[vapid gorge]

There’s a mod for that

[oblique notch]

relevant xkcd is always relevant

[noble current]

prefer staying vanilla, mods don't really give me joy and burn me out quicker

[vapid gorge]

I know 🙂 but ‘there’s a mod for that’ is just a true thing so often XD

[oblique notch]

truth. I love modding, but I always stay away from any like Smart or Infinite Zoop.

[noble current]

I only played cities:skylines once modded and it drained all the fun I had until that point in the game, it only turned into a modhunting race and less of a figuring the game out experience

[oblique notch]

yep. I usually play a game through without mods at least once, maybe twice if i really like it. I only go back and mod if its a game that i feel i couldplay again, but want some variety.

And i usualyl only go for QoL mods - things that make something that annoyed me less annoying

given this is my 7th world in SF, and that ive made it up to aluminum without mods, i dont mind using QoL type mods. Most of the ones I use just make life a little less fiddly (or ... i guess in the case of Micro Manager more fiddly lol) - longer beams. Remove hoverpack drift. perfect circles.

[vapid gorge]

Love me my perfect circles

[vapid gorge]

Oh and you can pry my Big Water Extractors from my cold wet hands

[oblique notch]

saame. TwoTwo said he has MM almost ready for U7 too so hopefulyl wotn be long after release i cannot wait to get it back.

[noble current]

while it's fine, I still think, that buildings like manufactor or coal plants critically needs to be downscaled a bit for the BP designer - especially since the manu is just a single meter "too long"

[vapid gorge]

U7 changes toooootally wont break it again right? :p

[oblique notch]

thats with tehe u7 changes i mean

[noble current]

actually 2m but still

[oblique notch]

they wont change the buidling size they said, but they may change the hitbox on the coal gen - or more accurately, let its smoke stack not count

not sure if they will do anything for manufactureures

how many do you need? the bp can still save you a lot of time by adding your mergers/splitters and connection to the machine in one go

[vapid gorge]

Eh, the bp is was scaled with existing buildings in mind. You could always make the infrastructure for the refinery/coal gen in a BP then manually place the buildings? The surrounding obj are what takes time

[noble current]

10 I need - having a paired bp would be so huge for me

it would also help me to measure how much space I need

and if I need extend layers

[vapid gorge]

Just do a prototype. Then you know how to section it off properly

[oblique notch]

build. hate it detroy it. build it again. hate part of it, destroy most of it. do it a gain... and again... and again... thats my life

[vapid gorge]

People complaining about small bp seems odd tbh. You can make a bp 2x long/wide by just having 4 bp

And then hot bar it real quick

[oblique notch]

i know right?

i mean i kinda get the 2 manufactureres.

but ... even so.... ... i think people just really really want to be able to build entire sections in one click, which in my eyes is a fun killer shrug each there own and mods exist

[noble current]

I am fine with the 4x4x4, what I am not fine with is, that a few buildings are small enough to have a ton of extra space but barely too large to fit a 2nd building of it, like with the manufacturer

[vapid gorge]

Tbh when you’re getting to that size the time save for bps would largely be for the surrounding objects right? Power sockets, walls foundations etc etc. each machine is , usually, one click while setting up where it sits could be dozens

[noble current]

placing wall/foundations, power sockets etc are better for me to manage the spacing off than those huge, inaccurate machines that aren't exactly x-foundations wide or have multiple inputs and so on - the bp really helps me to space those kind of machines out properly, which helps me in placing them later on

[oblique notch]

well, the "extra space" around a single manufacturer doesn't translate to the blueprint if you don't have anything in it. Most of my blueprints take up a space less than 2 foundations for example, because they are deco stuff.

[noble current]

well, the manufacturer is also barely wider than 2 foundations

[oblique notch]

so its not really wasted or anything. put down what is it... 6 foundations? 9 maybe? and center the manufacturer inside that, then build its support - mergers for the output plus a connecting belt, and any splitters setup you want for the input - that will save you time there.

bah i would make you an example but EoS is having some issues it seems and i dont wanna go find my clone

[noble current]

EoS? clone?

[vapid gorge]

I think game client not logging on properly so it spawns in with fresh character and no inventory

[noble current]

oh

that sounds unfortunate

[vapid gorge]

It’s mostly annoying. You can try re logging when it registers you online or go kill your clone.

Or generally it’s good practice to keep extra sets of equipment armrest spawn

[fierce cypress]

Epic Online Services - sometimes things can get weird and it cannot connect you to your old body (because even in singleplayer you're kind of playing MP), and it will spawn you in with a new one - your old body (clone) will be wherever you last left it.

[noble current]

sounds like this happens a bit too often?

idk, never happened to me so far

[fierce cypress]

It happens on occasions - not that big of an issue imo

[vapid gorge]

Not a fan of epic. Mind you steam is also owned by awful people. But ui and tech works well at least

[oblique notch]

Hah. You old enough to remember when it came out?

Give epic 20 years of refinements then judge them 😁... first steam with original Counter-Strike (not even Go) was horrrible. ... cs 1.6 if I remember correctly

[cinder silo]

You know when I first saw CSGO's title I thought it was a mobile game 🤣

[dense cave]

I mean, it was fairly new shit at the time. Steam actually worked really well in my view, had some cool options especially as they added more and more games

epic has been around a long long time now, still feels like an unfinished mess

[vapid gorge]

Eh, steam was fiiiiine when it started out? Didn’t do nearly as much obvs.

[oblique notch]

Not to my recall. I remember everyone on campus being annoyed as hell because it had major connection issues all the time and it basically was a glorified match maker.

[vapid gorge]

Are we talking about CS days when it was just valve stuff basically?

[oblique notch]

Then and just after yeah. Before it had a store front even heh.

2001/2002ish

[oblique notch]

And yes. EoS is down

[bitter tree]

The way to make the most rubber/plastic per minute, is to use the recipe that makes 130 resin/min, correct?

[wind spade]

no

[gusty nexus]

nope, you loop the recycled rubber/plastic recipes

[bitter tree]

But then you'll be limited on how much you can do it, because of fuel?
Brain is fried atm

[wind spade]

well you make fuel with diluted fuel

and use alternate heavy oil residue

diluted fuel + alternate HOR

polymer resin

[bitter tree]

Thanks .. just spent the last 6hrs or so dealing with getting getting all the oil from spire coast gathered up and moved to a big base.

[prime orchid]

Epic Games is newer than steam and still has some growing up to do. It it used to happen to steam sometimes but now it’s pretty rare.

[bitter tree]

Steam first came out in 2003 or 2004 ..

So a lot of stuff is newer than Epic Games ..

[prime orchid]

You mean steam?

Epic games store is only 4 years old they’re still a baby compared to steam. I sure wish they would optimize their launcher though cause it’s slower than the league client

[wind spade]

epic launcher eats less resources than steam's 🤷‍♂️

[prime orchid]

Then let it eat more resources if it will run faster dang

[wind spade]

both run fine on my pc

never had any issues with neither

well, apart from a few issues with steam not registering I've quit games 🤔

not sure what "run faster" means, both launch my games, which is what they need to do and do it normally. Epic uses less resources to do so, so it's "better" in my eyes

[prime orchid]

I don’t think resources are issue. It doesn’t need as much as steam. I think it’s just optimization.

Library is probably the biggest problem. I have a huge library from all the free games I’ve collected. But even though I’ve only got like 5 installed, trying to load that library is awful. I tried changing the page limit amount to “all” and that was a HUGE mistake

Changed it back ASAP

But just general load speeds are slow especially when cloud syncing or downloading. It takes forever at the black loading screen if it ever even loads. Sometimes I have to exit and try re-opening to get it to work

[noble current]

I like both and just got epic because back then, satis was epic-only and I wanted to play it so badly 🤷‍♀️

[wind spade]

yeah these issues never happened to me 🤷‍♂️ and epic gives more money to devs so I prefer to buy on epic when possible (not often)

[noble current]

I got satis even so early, where it wasn't even sure if it will ever be released on steam 🤷‍♀️

which was the main reason I got epic

didn't wanted to wait and gamble

[prime orchid]

Besides the slowness from epic, I have a lot of other really big gripes with it on a basic functional level that steam handles very well. Of course steam isn’t without its issues but like how hard is it to create a drop down menu for right clicking games? How hard is it to give me an option to move a game install location? How hard is it to.. nvm I’m just gonna stop before I go off lol

[noble current]

today I learned, you can't copy&paste water extractor settings, and now my day is ruined ☹️

[oblique notch]

thatseems like a bug!

[cinder silo]

I had that with water extractors, had to tune 200 of them without copy paste 🤣

[wind spade]

that's a feature to not mess with clock settings on extractors

[barren elm]

I have issues with epic forgetting my password every 5min

Steam never does

Rebought satisfactory just to avoid the hassle

[tropic fjord]

Hi guys, how goes your FICSMAS 😬

First time posting here and I was making some factory designs for FICSMAS specifically and thought I'd quietly leave them here in case anyone finds them useful or has feedback on them

This one will rally you to wonder stars:

And this one will make you snowballs:

how2ficsmas without dying in the process xd

[fierce cypress]

@tropic fjord out of curiosity, what tool did you use to make this?

[tropic fjord]

oh no, link removed lmao

diagrams (dot) net

[fierce cypress]

cool, for future reference you can just remove the https:// and it won't get filtered, like so www.diagrams.net/

[tropic fjord]

ya i just copy pasted

i'm working on lines for fireworks, also i think the snowball one fits in blueprints so scalability would be great for it if it does

[still brook]

How do you tackle balancing larger amounts of belts together?
e.g. 4x 600 belts, 4x 780~ belts would evenly balance into 8x690 beltts, or otherwise overflow into 7.077 780 belts

[fierce cypress]

it depends on what i need

[still brook]

Well im doing bauxite at the moment, which has 6x780, 8x600, 1x300
So then Sloppy Alumina takes 500 (2.5 oc) Bauxite each
Which means I could do something like 2x750 belts feed 3 refineries

[vapid gorge]

is there a reason you need to even out the 8 belts?

[still brook]

not really, just not sure how else to manifold over a belts capacity haha

[vapid gorge]

what's going over belt capacity in that?

link a sat tools plan if you have one.

[still brook]

Roughly this https://u6.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=CYSTGTSgq2PyPhAJs9se
Although I think I'll at east accommodate the full amount of bauxite at the first step

[vapid gorge]

ok one sec

ok so at what point in the production do you want an 'even' amount on the belts, scrap?

[still brook]

nah just at the bauxite

[vapid gorge]

oh that'll be much more annoying. Basically a lot of balancing. Scrap would be easier by far

[still brook]

haha yeah my thoughts exactly

[vapid gorge]

ok if you want to balance the baux? Just load balancing. Soz my guy

Welcome to hell

scrap though is easy

sorry fixed typo at top

been a long day

[still brook]

Right yeah

So how do you do large balancers that do 15 belts like that?

[vapid gorge]

So yeah look up load balancing? xD
if you want to do scrap/solution I can help with that though

[vapid gorge]

a lot of division, counting ect. Depends on what numbers you have.
780, 600 and 300 are at least all divisible by 60 which actually makes your life easier

since you can always branch off mk1

Like if you want even 300 belts just split the 600 into 2

with 780 you have a junction with x mk2 and x2 mk1, then the mk5 leading out will have 600 which can be split into 2 for 600

[still brook]

Hmmmm, might need to make some blueprints for this

[vapid gorge]

ehhh I don't think it'll be helpful unless you're doing some specific thing. But first you have to decide how much you're load balancing

personally I'd just do the baux belts as is, then clock the solution refs appropriately to merge them into sections that will give you even scrap

[fierce cypress]

do you want an even split - or do you want it compressed?

because you can build a simple belt compressor to get compressed belts

[vapid gorge]

hiss

[fierce cypress]

a 15:15 load balancer would be hell to build on the other hand

[fierce cypress]

oh come on its a belt compressor

[vapid gorge]

I'm not a fan 😛

[still brook]

I think a multiple of 500 would probably be best

[fierce cypress]

well the total of your belts is not a multiple of 500

[still brook]

true yeah, but it's a bit easier to have the last one to tbe the left overs

[vapid gorge]

again you're working forward on this and you're making more scrap than baux being used so depending how you want to go you might have too big a chunk after

[fierce cypress]

then a belt compressor seems like the best approach

belt compress it to belts with 500/min outbound with one leftover belt at the end

easy

[vapid gorge]

ok quick questions - are you balancings for utility or because you just like balancers?

[still brook]

I think if I can get a multiple of 500, (250, 500, 750) then it makes it a known input into the refineries and makes all subsequent math known

[vapid gorge]

cause 'having some left over' doesn't strike me as you like balancers

I mean if you ahve any starting numbers you have known math

[fierce cypress]

you say multiple of 500, then list multiples of 250

[still brook]

hahaha true

multiples of 250 then

[fierce cypress]

but same solution, make a belt compressor

[vapid gorge]

yeah 250 wouldn't be a simple number to balance I think

[still brook]

how would you compress to a specific number that's not a belt speed?

[fierce cypress]

if you've got 15 belts, any balancer is going to be complex

[fierce cypress]

same way as a manifold - it will back up

and then only consume 500/min

[still brook]

oh right

good point, yeah that could work

[vapid gorge]

Truly baffled as to why you wouldn't want to work backwards from scrap but here we are 😛

[still brook]

it make sense to me working like that... but how would you do it from the scrap then?

[vapid gorge]

Essentially I would choose whatever number of scrap was convenient

Then at that point group selected scrap refineries clocked to collect X scrap per minute

Those scrap refineries could be fed by grouped solution refineries clocked to produce enough solution for X scrap

and I'd just manifold the bauxite into the appropriately clocked solution refineries

I like to control production through precision clocking and layout

It's jsut a different way to approach things

[still brook]

the manifold for the bauxite, wouldn't that just be the same as the belt compressor? 2overflows, 2 mergers?

[vapid gorge]

nah just straight up manifold folds. I might merge the 300s into 600s if that was convenient?

[still brook]

Right but what about the 600+780 lines?

[vapid gorge]

But basically, 'ok I have a belt of 600 baux being fed into variously clocked refineries

One sec

ok so the numbers dont represent reality for recipes but bear with me

Lets say I wanted 500 scrap on each line as the end goal

and somehow this meant I could do 1 and part of 1 500 scrap line in a 780 baux line

I'd clock the say, 3 appropriate refineries to make solution to go to refineries to make enough scrap for hte first 500 line

Then in this picture example I would clock the last x2 refs o nthe 780 line and the first ref on the 600 line to make the right amount of solution, merge just those 3 lines, send them to the scrap refs. And so on and so on

I often do it like this because I make some very specific designs and I want very compact and dedicated logistics and, if we take this pictured example, I will have a set of machines that will either need 500 scrap as a group that will continue on OR I'll organise them like the first set of Baux refs so they are clocked and merged accordingly to produce the number of ingots on each line I need. Many of those lines may have unique volumes depending on the next production

[still brook]

Im still not quite sure how to actually balance the bauxite/scrap between blocks there
A specific example is that I need to produce 1800 Alumina solution to do the battery section of this factory
In order to do this I need 750 bauxite which is 30 left over (but then also belts don't carry 780... or do they after the last patch, who knows)
And it's important that I use that 30 left over to feed into the rest of the system

[vapid gorge]

hmm ok where is that 30 needing to go?

[still brook]

into the next block of refineries, which are then doing solution -> scrap

[vapid gorge]

ok quick sketch one sec

so assuming these are accurate numbers to the recipes maybe you're a real example type of learner

this is 1 way you could do it. 6 refineries set to 125 each making 600 solution per pair, for a total of 1800 solution. And the 30 in another refinery with solution sent elsewhere

OR the bauxite sent to merge with another line. Many options

If you want to send the bauxite elsewhere instead of a refinery set to minimal speeds you can have every splitter be a smart splitter set to overflow.
That way the 750 is guaranteed to be consumed before sending off the 30 pm to another spot

(that's how you do sushi belts essentially)

[still brook]

Right I think I get what you're saying
Need to mess around with it for a bit though I think

[vapid gorge]

no that's fair. Do you want a real worked example?

[still brook]

Oh I think I might slam some belts into these refineries and see how it works out haha

[vapid gorge]

no prob 🙂
Just one more thing though - do you know about the battery alt recipe?

[still brook]

oh which one?

[vapid gorge]

there's only 1 alt for it. Classic Battery.

It's slightly more complicated but , and I will admit I'm bias, I hate the base recipe.

[still brook]

ah yeah I think there was a reason I didn't do that

[vapid gorge]

It uses much less bauxite and sulfur for a bit of plastic and wire (iron my pref) And you don't have to muck around with using solution as a material

If using the solution doesn't bug you luck be with you xD But I also like the resource efficiency 🙂

This way I just turn everything into ingots and don't worry about it

[still brook]

ah I think it's the copper usage that's why I didn't go for that

This is "roughly" what im aiming for haha
https://u6.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=tJf8FUh69ADEZackaq9W

[vapid gorge]

XD one sec

[vapid gorge]

I'll see your plan and raise you mine https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=Eo3k56lY43qaIublWMfn

[still brook]

hahah sounds like we have similar ideas

[vapid gorge]

VERY tight budget on stuff. If you're worried about copper I highly recommend Iron Wire alt

[still brook]

oft, that number of buildings

[vapid gorge]

Spawning in power shards. OCing everything

Partially for performance partially for aesthetics. I find huuuuuge structures hard to make look nice

this is the uranium rod factory and I haven't even installed the Ur Rod tower yet

[still brook]

ok I think im going to do something like this
It's showing the belts remainder when splitting/merging, subtracting 750 at each split
Then adding either 600's or 780's, aslong as it doesn't exceed 1560 on a merge, or 780 on a split or drop below 0 then it fits

[vapid gorge]

ok how are you doing the first merge of 1300 though?

[still brook]

So belt 1 will be 600, belt 2 will be 780
they'll merge together but overflow before so 750 will split off with 630 remainder
Since they're overflowing before the splitter it can handle 1560 until untill the remainder splitter

[vapid gorge]

I still don't get how you're merging them together? Is your goal to have 630 750 and 780?

[still brook]

does that make a bit more sense?

[vapid gorge]

so your end goal is to have a 600 a 630 and a 660?

no wait that doesnt add up

[still brook]

well it'll keep feeding down the line as per that table above

[vapid gorge]

Look - I will believe you that this does what you want it to do - But I think you possibly made it in the most complicated way you could without actually trying to overcomplicate it xD

wait, are you constantly merging belts together??

[still brook]

yeee

[vapid gorge]

I can't believe it.

You've designed a more nightmare injection manifold

A ... semi load balanced injection manifold??

[still brook]

It's just the design here https://satisfactory.fandom.com/wiki/Balancer#Belt_compressor

[vapid gorge]

This is the worst of all worlds and darkest timeline

Right. This is why I dislike belt compressors XD

[still brook]

fair, math makes sense in my head though haha

[vapid gorge]

Ok so I'm going to preface this with - this is not a wrong way to do things - they do work - but my god I hate making multiple sections of factories have multi dependancies xD

Specifically segmenting factories into groups makes trouble shooting and logistics SO much neater

[vapid gorge]

I blame you for this existing

but again - that's just my subjective opinion. Thats... just a way of design that makes me grump. xD

[still brook]

haha yeah, what makes sense to one person is confusing to another

[vapid gorge]

It's not confusing.
It's just.. added complexity for no gain other than wanting to do it that way?

I think a lot of people have the urge of 'ok I'm going to bring all these iron belts together and split them off again' , cause monkey brains. And it especially doesn't work well at the start

Like people who start out with I'm going to bring all the iron ore to one spot, smelt it and send it out again. I've never actually seen anyone finish a project like that. It's probably happened but it's surprising I haven't seen at least one bubble through there.

But you're allowed to be weird 😛

[vapid gorge]

wait, why are you putting the 780's through the compressor? They are already fully compressed?

nm read it wrong

wait , no I didn't ? now I'm confused

[still brook]

Compressed yes, but it acts like a manifold also, so they're there for the overflow

[vapid gorge]

in that version with the numbers can you add how much you're expecting to flow at each branch?

[still brook]

Assuming this is all correct then this is the full things

[vapid gorge]

I'm trying to wrap what the splits are doing

[still brook]

the splitters are only set to overflow along the blue line

[vapid gorge]

right

ok SO assuming blue line is overflow only

[still brook]

yeah exactly

[vapid gorge]

that 750 branch should be 780 goign out the top of that first pic

[still brook]

the refineries will only be using 750 though so that's where it acts like a manifold

[vapid gorge]

flips table

[still brook]

😛

[vapid gorge]

just.. just please.. do an injection manifold at this point

I also hate them... but ... this is so unnecessary

[dense quail]

Injection what ?

[vapid gorge]

An injection manifold basically does the same thing

So essentially you have a regular manifold, each splitter set to over flow, then when there's enough throughput on the belt based on what your machines are using you merge a new belt in

[dense quail]

Okey!!

[vapid gorge]

the bottom right is injection

It's what you're doing but much simpler xD

You do the same thing, clock the machines how you like, set all the smart splitters feeding stuff to over flow, calculate where you inject the next line

@fierce cypress I curse you and your house

[dense quail]

Yo I did this with my aluminium plant, so convenient, splitters on an overflow alignment system are pain in the ass but, if you have enough overflow you can feed the machines faster .

Didn't know they had names .

[vapid gorge]

I mean... you feed it just as fast, belts only have X throughput , but I get you

[dense quail]

Oh lord .

[vapid gorge]

Also I'm amazed. There's a lot of different ways to control belt throughput and feeding of machines and you like ... smashed 3 ways of doing it in your other set up

I mean, it looked like it would work.

[fierce cypress]

look, i give solutions to the problems that people have made themselves in an ideal world there would be no problems in the first place

[vapid gorge]

I refuse to believe this chaos was sown by accident. I will always blame you

[fierce cypress]

[dense quail]

I know but need to wait in order for system to reach top efficiency, with that you can reach it faster. Am I wrong ? •_•

[dense quail]

No

[vapid gorge]

So ... the maths for full feeding time of any manifold system? It's madness. People have talked about it in hushed tones.

BUT... if you have X number of Belts with Y items feeding whatever system and you're not load balancing it I don't see why it would feed things faster or slower in a manifold system

as in full efficiency

Like ... maybe? I'm not going to do a detailed analysis and sometimes maths just hates how humans think and wants to screw with you? But I can't think of how this way might do it faster

Essentially I know enough to know I don't know enough about this particular maths

[dense quail]

Wait let me explain my point and pls correct me if I'm wrong.

[vapid gorge]

sure

[dense quail]

Yoooo 😂😂😂😂😂😂

[dense quail]

Now for an overflow system, you'll gonna have to wait for machines to get filled one after the other, I'm not saying other machines or npt getting fed they are but in total the plant is not making the output estimated by calculation, until sone time goes through all machines get filled to the brim an the plant is now at top efficiency right ?

[vapid gorge]

ok I think I see where you're going with things

ok you have an argument

I forgot to consider teh smart splitters

[dense quail]

U see with injection manifold that time interval narrows down .

[vapid gorge]

because there are fewer machiens using up some of the material while tings get filled you mean?

ok so lets say machine 1 and 2 get filled and 3 starts getting items from the overflow

but by the time 3 starts it's process 2 and 3 take up more items and it stutters 3?

[dense quail]

Okey .

[dense quail]

Sort of yess !

[vapid gorge]

Yeah ok so it's possible. I'm... abslutely not going to go back and dig through my uni maths for this though. McGalleon is someone you probably want to talk to about it

Yeah you should ask McGalleon about smart splitter over flow manifold spin up times vs regular manifold spin up times

[dense quail]

No worries man nobody wants to go back to uni maths . XD

McGalleon okey I'll ask him when I notice hi. Online .

[vapid gorge]

Though I will say the practical argument of this is probably pointless since you can and, in some cases should, prefill machines by hand before turning the whole thing on xD

[dense quail]

I do that too . 😂😂😂😂

So just expanding my knowledge ..

[vapid gorge]

then how does it fill it up fasters???? xD

Why are you doing this to me.

[dense quail]

Just in case I left it alone, I chose not to fill it by ✋ .

[vapid gorge]

xD

Sure. Why not 😛

[dense quail]

what did I dew ??

[vapid gorge]

lol

nothing really

[dense quail]

XD I'm just joking .

[vapid gorge]

you were just going yeah this is great, faster spin up time argument oh I fill it by hand anyway

jfc

[dense quail]

Lol 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

You be like "I will find you ... Then I will kill you" .

[vapid gorge]

That's absurd. I'd never leave written evidence.

I'm going to play stellaris for a while and try to forget about your overflow balanced belt compressor 😛

[dense quail]

Is it that good of a game I have it but, never installed it .

oh no .

[vapid gorge]

Look - I really enjoy it because I like trying weird new combinations of empire types.
There's a lot of depth and mechanics that you need to look up personally to actually figure out?

I think it's very good and I don't often like 4x grand strat games

You need most of hte DLC though

[dense quail]

Sounds like Endless space 2 to me .

[vapid gorge]

oh no I hated endless spaces. Very different

[dense quail]

:(

[dense quail]

What? Why ?

[vapid gorge]

it felt flat? Just couldn't get into it

this is a reasonable ranking for stellaris DLC https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Unq2IJAOKGU , it comes on sale frequently if you're interested

It's grown a lot over the years. Version 3.6 now

[dense quail]

For how long have u played ?

[vapid gorge]

on and off since release with some big gaps?

so may 2016 I guess since that's w hen it was released. Its basically unregocnisable from the original though

[crystal venture]

iron ingots to screws is a 1:4 ratio, but the stack sizes respectively is a 1:5 ratio. Does this mean that I should process the ingots into screws before I shunt them into my train network?

[dense quail]

So u haven't played penumbra and awakening?

[dense quail]

Define 1:4 ratio .

[crystal venture]

one ingot makes 4 screws

I simplified, using the Cast screws recipe which is 5:20

although its the same for the default recipe as well since iron rod makes 4 screws and is made with 1 ingot

[vapid gorge]

proooobably not

No I wouldn't have

[vapid gorge]

honestly I think most people find it's easier to make high stack items like screws wire concrete on location where it gets used.

screws take up 4x belt logistics which takes up a lot more space ect

[crystal venture]

oh right I didn't think about that

[vapid gorge]

You just wind up needing more train cars.

the 2nd best way to make screws is right near where they are getting used
The best way to make them is not at all (but that's my bias against screws)

[crystal venture]

they are annoying

always end up being the bottleneck in my setup

[vapid gorge]

There's enough alt recipes in the game to never need to make screws again

[dense quail]

:( go and give em a chance story so gud ships so gud !

[vapid gorge]

but the rock paper scisors combat suuuuuuuccckkkss...

[dense quail]

👀

[vapid gorge]

AND they just overhauled combat in Stellaris so there is no longer a meta

There might be a new meta that develops but I will enjoy the many new options

[dense quail]

Idk what u have been in 2016, but this ain't it, just look it up .

[vapid gorge]

don you pick a type of each ship component and run it against the enemy?

[dense quail]

One thing I love about stelaris is when you meet another empire you either make tribute to them for large sphere pf influence or die, you'll have to disipher language to open up communication.

[vapid gorge]

do you mean endless space?

[dense quail]

You can swap shil modules yes .

[dense quail]

No stelaris, endless space doesn't demand u to desipher other empire's language .

Or am I mixing it with another game ?

[vapid gorge]

I thought you hadn't played?

we should prob move to #off-topic-general

[dense quail]

I didn't but I did my research . XD

[noble current]

I got a question for the mk2 pipes

I heard it got a throughput issue and I was wondering, if it'd affect a throughput of 552m³/min already, or if it just affects the very max througput of 600m³/min?

[frosty owl]

You should be fine with that much.
Getting 600/min isn't impossible just tricky. As long as they have some leeway issues arise very rarely

[noble current]

I also calculated a plus of 16m³/min than I need in hope that it somewhat "overflows" as a kind of buffer, if you get what I mean

[oblique hollow]

so you make 16 more than you need?

so you only need 536/min in reality?

[noble current]

it's kinda of a rounding issue since I technically need to fill 49.026 refineries, having a water requirement of 1640m³/min (rounded in the next full refineries) and the water extractor are at 230% overclocked, giving 276m³/min each - paring 2 of them to a single pipe and so on

[oblique hollow]

eh, i wouldnt worry about anyhting in that case then

[noble current]

to be more precise, the 49.026 refineries also need only 1620.51m³/min but I hate decimals

[oblique hollow]

you should be well off then

[noble current]

alrighty, thanks!

still can't believe I already make it past mk2 pipes, ngl

[midnight wolf]

Wait what's the problem with mk2 pipes? I'm using them for my pure iron ingot factory and unfortunately, even if mathematically my setup should work, in reality it doesn't, not all refineries work at 100% productivity somehow and the issue is not coming from the iron but the water, even if the imput I provide should let the refineries work at 100% productivity

[wind spade]

loop the pipe, it should work

[midnight wolf]

Like, a MK2 pipe should sustain 30 refineries using the pure iron ingot recipe, but yeah, it doesn't work for me😆

[wind spade]

---+--------------+
   |              |
   +--+--+--+--+--+
   |  |  |  |  |  |

[midnight wolf]

Oh, I don't think I can actually do that, I have my factory set up with 2 rows of each 6 refineries, and there are 3 floors, last floor has only a row of 6 refineries, making it in total 30

[wind spade]

you definitely can do that, just take the end of the pipe and hook it to the beginning

[craggy forge]

any ideas how to set this up?

[midnight wolf]

My setup looks like this

[wind spade]

exactly as the tool shows you

[craggy forge]

how am i gonna get 82.026 iron ingots

with only having splitters and recievers

[wind spade]

it's 120 in total

also, manifold 🙂

--S--S--S--S--S
  |  |  |  |  |
  X  X  X  X  X

S = splitter
X = machine

[craggy forge]

youre suggesting me to connect all constructors into manifold like that?

[wind spade]

yeah, why not? 🙂

[craggy forge]

will it work though

[wind spade]

yes

[craggy forge]

do i need to fill every constructor to top? the iron ingot

[wind spade]

you can but you don't need to

[craggy forge]

with splitters only?

[wind spade]

yeah

[craggy forge]

can i connect on both manifold sides

[wind spade]

yes

[craggy forge]

ok

[midnight wolf]

So basically I should make a sort of boiler shape for my setup? :

- - I+ - - + - - + - - + - - + - - + I 
- - I+ - - + - - + - - + - - + - - + I
- - I+ - - + - - + - - + - - + - - + I```

(Each row represents a floor)

Basically this, in a row I connect the first and the last junction (orange), and between the floors I connect the first and last junction (green)

Tbh verticality is giving me a huge problem xD, I had a more primitive idea of using a single mk1 pipe for each floor, since each floor demands 240 m3 water/min

So basically a full mk1 pipe could basically satisfy all the floor requirements, but I'm afraid of that +60 m3 water/min which is essentially an overflow and could cause some issues

[craggy forge]

@wind spade are you sure its gonna work? do i really need to put 200 iron ingots each constructor?

[wind spade]

you don't need to put any ingots anywhere, just wait a few minutes until it stabilises. You can however put the ingots in them to speed up the stabilisation. However it's not required

[craggy forge]

oh ok

[midnight wolf]

Thanks for the amazing tips! I replaced all the MK2 pipes in MK1 and looped them as you said, the factory is now outputting the desired 3 full MK5 belts of Iron Ingot🙂

Only problem is that the factory seem to lag when the train comes in order to deliver water + raw iron, like it stops the production completely and restart normally as soon as the train leaves the station, I could be wrong tho

[oblique notch]

It does

Because stations turn off input to the station when a train is loading

To mitigate this add a container right before thr station input

Oh you said delivery

Huh.

[median heath]

If he doesn't have anything buffered then delivery would cause it to stall as well.

[oblique notch]

oh it does turn off belts on delivery? good to know

or im mis-interpreting

[median heath]

Lockout happens during docking.
Whether delivery or pickup.

[short yoke]

how do i calculate how many trains with freights will i need to get to my input needs

in both fluid and normal items

[oblique hollow]

a single freight platform can at best do 1400 something per minute in solid and like 1100 in liquids or whatever

the timing.....

a single freight car either holds 32 item stacks or 1600 m³ of fluid

for fluid, you got 1600/1100 or so so thats a bit more than one minute
minus a whole eternity of docking time means you can only have a travel time of a few seconds for a single fluid freight car

correction - half a minute of travel time

for solids, stack size matters

size 100 means 3200 items, size 500 means 16000 items

https://satisfactory.fandom.com/wiki/Freight_Car
there
theres a throughput section lower down

[short yoke]

i found this formula on reddit: (< number of freight cars> x (32 x <stack size>) / <Train turn time in mins>

= items pr min thats correct?

[oblique hollow]

thats exactly what it says on that wiki page

[short yoke]

oh... Thanks man! now i gotta do some time calculations

[oblique hollow]

just time it

or estimate the time

let the train run

[short yoke]

my main issue is that the speed of the loaded train is different of the unloaded one

and im planning to move about 2300 iron ingots/min to another facility

[oblique hollow]

you could add another locomotive

and then the travel time is a guideline for the average

[short yoke]

is there a tactic of when to put another locomotive? like i turn another on when the first one is at the opposite station?

[oblique hollow]

doesnt matter where on the train really

just keep in midn that if you add it at the front, this will be your new head loc

and thus the train will have a different arrangement when stopping at a station

[short yoke]

i thought you were talking about a new train haha not another locomotive for more speed

got it!

thanks!

[oblique hollow]

you can find the weight and force of stuff on the locomotive page

lets see.....

i dont think anyone ever made a guideline on what a ideal weight to force ratio is

definitely not 1:1

oh right, slope steepness

this is just for "the locomotive can still pull this, but acceleration may suck"

i think 1 to 3 or 1 to 4 is still a decent number in this case

so 1 loc per 3 or 4 freight cars

[short yoke]

lot of math involved with trains, its so much fun. Thanks for the help!

[royal knot]

Can anyone help me with water transportation?

I don't know why the fluids aren't running (sorry if this is the wrong channel)

[wind spade]

pipes will help you

(also ideally you want to transport things to water, not water to things)

[royal knot]

The pipes don't want to work with the pumps

can you negotiate between them?

[oblique hollow]

wdym negotiate

you can post images here

just make a screenshot

[royal knot]

wait is there such a thing at too many pumps?

[oblique hollow]

kinda, yes

[royal knot]

as*

[oblique hollow]

badly placed pumps can hinder fluid transport

[royal knot]

ok I removed one of them and it's flowing

thx

[oblique hollow]

pumps are directional

and have a height limit

if you want more info, check the pins in this channel

there is a manual for fluids pinned there

[median heath]

This is wrong.

[oblique hollow]

oh boy, is that section outdated?

[royal knot]

I don't get why this one isn't working

[median heath]

Yes, you have to scroll down further to get to the actual equations (the ones I wrote).
No idea why the bad math hasn't been removed 🤷‍♂️

[oblique hollow]

i think your very first pipeline pump is not placed low enough
check each pump after it too to make sure it does not exceed its limit

either way: please check the manual out

[tropic hawk]

or replace both pipes to ensure there is no glitched non-connections

[hexed crater]

@gusty nexus So here's the setup. Train loads some random stuff at one station and then unloads it at another where it gets sunk in a sink on its own power network.

And here's the power graph for the ,2 stations, 2 freight platforms and 2 locomotives:

• 100 MW for the two locomotives each idling at 25 MW + 50 MW from the active freight platform.
• 220 MW spike from each locomotive accelerating out of the station
• 50 MW for each locomotive coasting into the station (not sure what that little bump is before the next loading/unloading phase)

the claimed 50 MW for each station just doesn't seem to be here.

[tropic hawk]

connect a station to a power pole and nothing else and open the power graph and look at max consumption

[hexed crater]

Okay but when does the station actually consume its "max consumption"?

[tropic hawk]

the 50 MW. Trains only consume power when they are accelerating

[median heath]

Stations consume power only during the docking sequence.
Trains consume power only while moving.

[hexed crater]

but that's the train not the station?

[median heath]

Well, outside of docking stations are idle so they consume only 0.1 MW per platform.

[hexed crater]

no the freight platform consumes the power during the docking sequence?

[median heath]

Yes. Where did someone say it didn't?

Also trains don't consume 25 MW just for existing.

[hexed crater]

The station and the freight platform are different things.

You can see on my graph above the max consumption is 50 for each station + 50 for each freight platform + 110 each locomotive.
So 50 + 50 + 50 + 50 + 110 + 110 = 420 MW

[median heath]

During docking you're consuming 100 MW because Station + Platform.
After docking, Station + Platform go down to 0.1 MW each and the train begins drawing the power per locomotive.

That's why the static 100 drops and then rises sharply.

Before falling to 50 once the trains are at max speed.

Red = Stations on, trains off.
Green = Stations off, trains on.

[oblique notch]

Remember too that rails transfer power

[median heath]

You not believing me when I say trains do not draw power unless they are moving doesn't make it any less true 🤷‍♂️

[hexed crater]

Are trains moving when they are docking?

[median heath]

If we want to compare screenshots of when the UI is wrong I can bury this channel in images 😂

[hexed crater]

okay how about this

i just stick 3 locos on the track like this

and here's power usage

btw this is update 6 still 'CL#209846' I'm not playing early access 7

how about 5 locos? ...125 MW
Convinced?

I had quick look through the recent patch notes but I couldn't see anything about station power usage.

just "• Fixed Train Stations showing “No Power” incorrectly"

So I'm willing to double down on my claim that the 100 MW is 25 from each idling locomotive and 50 from the active freight platform, and the train station itself never seems to consume anything.

[oblique notch]

Do you have a hoverpack equipped?

[hexed crater]

nope

[hexed crater]

And one last example just in case I am still doubted. I make a train with one locomotive and send to to the station to be loaded. It only has one station in the schedule so it just gets loaded over and over.

Power bounces between 25 MW from the locomotive and 75 MW (+50 from the freight platform when it's active).

[charred oxide]

Because i Feel like it i'm going to go over my math and stuff again about what I was going on about earlier in the main chat (not pinging the guy I was talking to because he's done with the convo but i'm continuing this out of my own desire to do the math and curiosity)

The given example was trying to transfer 2000 items per minute via train vs truck

Starting with Truck stations
They each have 2 inputs and at no point is the input or output shut off
So you'd want 4 truck stations, 2 to load 2 to unload as you can evenly split 2k into four belts with 500 items per minute each

With 48 inventory slots in a truck station, and 48 in a truck OR 25 in a tractor (might be able to get away with one) it will tkae a while for that space to fill up even with 1000 items per minute going into a given truck stop

The only types of items you would produce at that rate would have at least a stack size of 100
usually things like, Ingots, aluminum sheets, aluminum casings, wires, cable etc etc
so stacks of 100 is our worst case scenario
And at 1000 per minute in each station in that scenario you're only going to fill up 10 stacks of that inventory with items per minute. Even if we are doing low stack density items of 50, it's still only 20 stacks per minute

At that rate, how many stacks fill up a minute will only affect how many trucks/tractors we need to use.
but going off the 100 example
A round trip can take up to just under 5 minutes before the station over fills. In which time you can go a decent distance.
but let's assume you're stretching it, and have a trip that takes 8 minutes to go around.
so you need 2 trucks on each station, 4 total.

the three most likely sources of fuel one might use for their trucks is coal, petroleum coke, or fuel as it's very likely you'll have excess some where that you can funnel into a transport network more or less free of charge.

Truck fuel usage for each of these
coal: 15 per minute. but it might equate to 10-14 per minute due to the fact that trucks are not always 100% on the throttle, especially when they stop

Packaged fuel: 6 per minute, likely 5 per minute in practice

Petrolium coke: 25 per minute maybe down to 23

At these rates a truck rotue can realistically, in it's simplest form with only fuel on 1 end of it, be up to 6.6 minutes long on coal, 16.6 minutes or so long on Fuel, and about 8 minutes on petrolium coke (mostly due to it's stack size of 200)

Continuing this example we'll assume that we're using 4 trucks running on coal as that will mean 60 coal per minute
Something we can supply with a single Mk1 miner, and in theory is the cheapest fuel source as a result.

So, moving 2000 items per minute on a two truck routes with 2 trucks each due to the trip taking a bit more than 5 minutes to complete hence whey we're using 2 for each station.

you're paying 80MW to power all the truck stations
To give them the 60 Coal per mintue as fuel all you're going to need is a single Mk1 miner which will use a mere 5 MW
Meaning that transporting all that across a long distnace can cost as little as 85MW of power, and 60 coal per minute to run.
i'm not entirely willing to go out of my way to calculate the cost of producing Fuel for this setup rn. maybe some one else who cares enough can. but that's our benchmark right now.
85MW of power and 60 coal to transport 2k items per minute a few kilomiters.

Trains now
First, during loading phase they stop having items input into the train station
meaning you can only get 1 belt into a freight platform.
So you'll be splitting your 2k items per minute between 4 platforms

So you have 2 train stations, each with 4 freight platforms.
Train docks up to platform 1 loads up and takes a trip to platform 2.
So long as you produce enough power this will never shut down.

power usage of an eelctric locomotive will vary. between 25-110MW
i'm not going in game to test the specifics but we'll give it the benefit of the doubt and say that on the route it will on average use 70MW to get moving.

Aside that there is little else to setup.
meaning that the end result would be this

During Transit the power usage would be on average 170MW at a given time. 50 for each train station, and an average of 70MW for the train itself (though this can vary a lot and I might be over or under shooting the actual usage here)

During loading and unloaind steps this changes to 300MW
During the loading/unloading animations, the freight platforms use 50MW each. causing a momentary power usage spike.

So on that note
Trains in this example could use:
125-210 (170 average assumption) MW of power while items are in transit. and temporary bursts of 300MW during loading and unloading to transport 4 cars carrying 2000 items per minute

Trucks can in theory do the same using a constant 85MW of power and 60 coal per minute. their range limited by the stack size of their inventory however. Slightly mitigated by ahving fuel on both ends of a truck route or carrying fuel With it by using a bit of the free throughput one would have pushing 500 through Mk5 belts.
in effect this would double it's range but also start to increase fuel costs due to our throughput limit of stacks coming into play. The longer the route the more effecient trains become but trucks are still very much a viable option in this example.

[hexed crater]

yikes let me put on my reading glasses

[charred oxide]

Math for fun and I Felt it belonged here :)

[hexed crater]

Did you see my convo above about if train station actually use power as advertised? Id say it's relevant to your comparisons.

[wind spade]

is there a tl;dr about the wall of text?

[charred oxide]

Truck stationsc an transport 2 thousand items per minute off of 85MW of power including the miner that provides the 60 coal per minute required to run 4 trucks over a longer distance

Where as a train station will use a varried ammount of just raw power over the same distance but no less than 125 MW during transit, more like maybe 150MW average during transit
And 300MW while loading and unloading

that's about the summary

[hexed crater]

I'd also say your estimate of 70MW for average train power is pretty high. Trains use quite a bit of power to get moving but once they are up to speed they only use just a little more than idle power on the flat. Will depend on gradients and congestion.

[charred oxide]

also no
I just went off on a personal tangent after having a small argument about trains vs trucks with some one in the main chat earlier

[hexed crater]

btw are you aware that truck stations only use power when something is parked in them?

[charred oxide]

Ah they work like that too?

never actually checked, the wiki simply only mentions the power usage fluctuation for freight platforms

[wind spade]

wiki says

Power will be consumed while any vehicle is in range, even while no items are being moved. Once all vehicles are clear of the truck station, power usage drops to the standard 0.1 MW standby.

[charred oxide]

I must've missed that completely.

[hexed crater]

https://questions.satisfactorygame.com/post/61eafa4d831c8520523692c5

[charred oxide]

So the minimum amount of power in the example i went on a tangent for in both cases, when items are purely in transit in best case scenario
is 125.8 MW for trains
and 5.4MW + still 60 coal per minute in the trucks

With short bursts of
300MW during loading/unloaind trains

and 85MW when trucks are loading/unloading, assuming all 4 trucks are doing so at the same time which isn't likely.
usually short bursts of either 25.3MW or 45.2 MW

until range limited by the fuel becomes a problem trucks can easily be more efficient than trains is the conclusion I'm starting to come to
If throughput requirements are low, unlike what they are in this example.
you can use tractors
which only use about 73% the amount of fuel as trucks.

[sharp lion]

But trains look cooler

[hexed crater]

is your 5.4 MW from the coal sorry?

coal miner?

[charred oxide]

a Mk1 miner uses 5MW
the .4 comes from the Truck stations using 0.1Mw when not active

[hexed crater]

Ahh I see

[charred oxide]

though in theory you could say its 0.4MW since you can grab coal from excess off productions that in theory should be running 100% but some how produce a tiny bit extra

Excess coal, fuel etc
any thing really

Though fuel a bit less so due to containers

[hexed crater]

I dunno if it's fair saying well trucks consume 75 MW each but it only costs 5 MW to mine the coal for that. You might have to like burn the equivalent amount in generators and compare how much train you can run off that lol.

[charred oxide]

Well
let's do that comparison for a moment
we're doing 60 coal per minute in our trucks

So what can we get out of 60 coal put towards Trains?

4 coal generators
75MW each
300MW to play with
-5 for the MK1 miner
-20MW for the water extractor, but not really becaue we need 180 water per minute.
so, either 2, with 1 running on and off or an overclocked one. which will run at 38.8MW

so 43.8 MW minimum to run a 300MW coal plant on the same coal input as the trucks we mentioned prior.
add some power storage and you can run that train line off that same input.

[oblique notch]

Power wise, by the time you need extensive transport networks, is negligible for both, because you're either at dozens and dozens of fuel gens or poking into nuclear.

The advantages of trains is it's very certain what the route is with very little deviation on time tables (baring extremely congested tracks) and per trip they can carry larger bursts. Combined with higher speed this makes them ideal for longer trips, where thr amount of tractos/trucks would.be a very large gap between pickup and delivery, leading to more trucks needed for the same thruput.

Trucks have an advantage of being far easier to setup initially, but have a much greater variable in terms of trip length, due to terrain, getting off track or stopped and teleporting back up.

In addition, because trains are flat electric, it's leas logistics to get started

[charred oxide]

I think you're overstating the unreliability of trucks and tractors
when they are beyond a certain range they no longer render physics and simply go on their route at a pre-determined speed based on the recorded nodes

[hexed crater]

I think the main issue with trucks is you have to take the time to record the paths yourself, while trains can just pathfind on their own. + you have to sort out the fuel. But I think both are pretty viable and it kinda comes down to what you prefer aesthetically.

[oblique notch]

Sure, sure. But regardless that factor is there. Plus in general they are just far slower.

[oblique notch]

But trains you have to run the track. That is far more time intensive than any one driving path

[charred oxide]

oh yea no doubt. I just did all this as a fun math experiment after a small argument this morning.

[oblique notch]

Its advantageous of trains thst if you tie into an existing network of tracks its easier to set up a new route as you don't have to trace the entire route, just part of it

[charred oxide]

Yea
but also I don't even use trucks for effeciency here
I just use them becuaes I like to
I will build highways for them
AKA defeat the point by building roads for them like one does tracks for trains lol

[hexed crater]

As I understand there was a time where if a vehicle got stuck you have to like go and fix it yourself. However now if they get stuck they kinda noclip/phase back onto the path. So I think Trucks/Tractors are a bit stuck with their bad reputation from a few patches ago.

[noble current]

Am I correct to assume, that those numbers are only obtainable through overflowing the pipe network and the fluid can't really be balanced between those 3 pipes?

[wind spade]

you can't ever balance pipes

pipes are not belts

[charred oxide]

that's less than 600 you can just manifold that with 1 pipe

[oblique notch]

Overall it's always made sense to me that belts are inner factory, trucks are "on campus" if you will and generally inside a given biome, and trains are for multi biome tra sport, with drones for one offs and weird edge case support

[charred oxide]

and it will equate out

[charred oxide]

100%
they are some times even more consistent than trains due to the fact trains prevent input while loading.
but like that's a non issue that you can mitigate

[oblique notch]

Belts are items first in first out - if you take an item off, then you have to wait for thr next if another machine needs it.

Pipes are flow. If machine a needs 5m3 of flow a min then you'll see 5m3 of flow in Pipes before it. If you add a second machine to the same pipe, between machine a and b you'll see 5m3 of flow, before the first you'll now see 10m3.

As opposed to belts where you end up with a gap in items between machine a and b and thst can result in the machine waiting for an item

[noble timber]

I don’t think consistent is quite the right word there

[charred oxide]

yea perhaps not
less hassle to set up since you can rely on getting 100% of both inputs with out delay issues.

[noble current]

wait so it's better not to queue refineries onto a single pipe?

[charred oxide]

Maybe they just explained it weird, but as long as you're not dealing with a situation where you have buildings with multiple outputs to be accounted for
like you are here in this specific case
you can just
manifold it and have the 1 pipe feed into every thing with no extra steps to ensure flow is diverted correctly.

[noble current]

yea I really am dependent on their output

[charred oxide]

no you were specifically asking about the Crude oil step
The Extractor only has 1 output

[oblique notch]

no the exact opposite. you must, and should

[hexed crater]

One other advantage that trains have

[charred oxide]

Setp 2, the refineries
Well
in each instance the liquids and solids go into separate directions and only into a singular other item.
So no extra steps there eitehr

[oblique notch]

there is no balancing pipes like there is belts. You just plug machines into a pipe until it reaches just shy of 600m3 of required input a min, then start a new pipe

[hexed crater]

One other advantage that trains have is that if you set the option in the timetable to wait for completely full/empty it will not consume power while sitting in the station waiting to be ready to load

clarification the locomotives will consume power but the freight platform wont

whereas if you want to optimise a truck you have to park it somewhere and manually set the length of the pause to whatever makes sense

[charred oxide]

I always heard that mechanic was bugged

[hexed crater]

erm

it does this thing where the last stack isn;t actually complete

which is quite annoying

that might be what you mean

so you'll get a train which isn't quite full

[charred oxide]

I wouldn't know I've never used it on that assumption
plus I don't 100% see the point since trains use less power under less strain as is

but like
There's a use for every thing so

[limber palm]

Assuming this is the right channel to discuss this... I thought about making a spreadsheet recently, I saw at least one other doing something similar, but I like doing stuff on my own, and from what I remember I didn't like the other one that much. I wanted something to get a general idea of a play through before I start essentially. Meaning I want to set an amount of things I want, and for it to let me know if that is possible with the amount of resources. This current version started I think yesterday or the day before, and I think it's pretty close to useable, I'm still working on it though, and was wondering if any of you have ideas to make it better, or maybe if you see something I messed up, 4 eyes are better than 2 eyes I guess 🙂, and I am aware of the online calculators, but I'm not really a fan either.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Min2kHa87-mF86JPPfeb6X6hSuVCAQcYBxticcnSaTU/edit?usp=sharing

[still brook]

What is the sheet actually showing?

[limber palm]

The H column is to be edited with what you want, for instance 50 nuclear pasta, then it will automatically calculate everything back to the ore. Or that is the goal, in which it does mostly right now.

[fierce cypress]

Tier 9, 10 and 11?

[limber palm]

Aren't the same as in game tiers, the tiers work as the following tier processes something from the last tier essentially

[fierce cypress]

How are you doing alts?

[fierce cypress]

based off number of construction cycles?

[limber palm]

At it's current state it only allows for one alt, and it can't be changed automatically

[fierce cypress]

Thats a major downside imo

[still brook]

depending on what you're doing, not everyone wants to compare using one alt vs another

[limber palm]

The alts were just selected by what I felt my world should be, at the moment im not really planning on others to use it, if people want that then sure, but it wasnt a priority for me at the moment

[fierce cypress]

it seems fine if you want to use it for your world - it doesnt really work for different factories and changing recipes seems like a lot of manual work

i haven't checked the maths but assuming its all right then it seems fine

[still brook]

For that kind of math planning work, I generally just use this
https://u6.satisfactorytools.com/

[tacit cloud]

Anyone wanna do multiplayer rn?

[shadow prairie]

Hello there totally awesome user! You can checkout #looking-for-group-old and check the pins on how to find folks to play with. <3

[fierce cypress]

I am aware of the online calculators, but I'm not really a fan either.

[limber palm]

I just like doing stuff on my own, yes it's more work, but I find it fun, either way is fine 🙂

[still brook]

That was more of a general statement, I didn't mean to indicate you weren't aware of it
Although I am curious what part of it you're not a fan of? For me, I get annoyed that it dosen't have an OC config (it's not hard to do the math yourself but still)

[fierce cypress]

It wasn't me that said that - it was something that Colby said, i use SFTools a lot, and if you look hard enough you will find an OC config 😉

[still brook]

Oh right sorry, missed the quote!

wait what, there is OC config....

[fierce cypress]

in the beta version, yes

[limber palm]

I just don't like the setup of them, I prefer spreadsheets

[fierce cypress]

It could be interesting to make a spreadsheet version that you can use for any factory - selecting alts etc. idk if its possible but could be fun to try

[limber palm]

Granted I wasn't planning on it, and I'm not the best when it comes to spreadsheets, but I have some ideas I guess, might mess around with it at a later time

[still brook]

oh wow so many features on the beta version, but it's U5 from the looks of it, do you know if much has changed in terms of recipe costs?

[fierce cypress]

for comprehensive info on the state of SFT - join greeny's disc server and check the announcements channel

idk if im allowed to post the link here

but you can find it top right of the site - under the community tab

[still brook]

Easy, found it thanks!

[wind spade]

iirc discord links are auto-deleted

[wind spade]

out of curiosity, is there anything specific you don't like? any feedback is appreciated, especially the kind of "you could improve this and this"

[limber palm]

It's not anything you should change, it's just my preference of how things are layed out. Your website works great for most people I would be willing to bet, and it even would for me, it's just I would rather be looking at a spreadsheet where I can make things be where I want on the same sheet, instead of having different tabs. It's really just preference, and also spreadsheets are fun to learn 😄

[wind spade]

that's fair. fyi in my tools you don't need to have things in different browser tabs, I have tabs in the tools directly 😉

(and you can also put everything in one production line)

[oblique notch]

and a spreed sheet like view on other tabs in the viewing section)

[cinder silo]

I learned that the hard way 🤣

[wind spade]

yeah, I even don't really recommend using multiple browser tabs (except for reading)

since if you modify things in one browser tab and then in other browser tab, the second modification overwrites the first one

[cinder silo]

Lessons I learned while getting my nukes planned, it caused some chaos before I figured my mistake.

Happened after I swapped from calculator to tools for production planning.

[limber palm]

Sorry I didn't mean actual browser tabs 😄
The equivalent of what Im saying would be like adding a new sheet to an already existing sheet to seperate things, yes probably more neat, but not my type.

[wind spade]

yeah, again, nobody forces you to do that, you can put all your production in one place 🙂

[limber palm]

Hm, I must have skipped over that ability somehow, thanks

[fierce cypress]

i can send it without the https:// and it shouldn't delete

[tropic hawk]

Don't you recommend to not do this?

[tropic hawk]

or send it in here

[steel elk]

does this recipe still work

[tropic hawk]

Yes

They confirmed this recipe is still in, and the only reason beacons are still a thing

[steel elk]

probably don't want to re-set up infrastructure for that though if they remove beacons

i'll go with the other way

[tropic hawk]

The way I figure it, they won't remove it without a ton of notice so you can change your factories accordingly. But to each their own

[steel elk]

but like 9.6 250% manufacturers*3.5 (uranium deposits)

too much work honestly

[tropic hawk]

Have you ever done a full nuclear build?

[steel elk]

no

setting it up and i have currently enough of everything for 1 normal uranium deposit

and plenty of space for more

[tropic hawk]

A full 252 with waste processing is a 200 hr build easy.

[steel elk]

how many freight carts should i put on the train? 2640 caterium/min and the red dot is where i need it

[fierce cypress]

1 loop?

[steel elk]

thankies

[fierce cypress]

Throughput = Items/min of what you are moving - 2640
Round Trip Duration = The time (in minutes [1min 30 seconds = 1.5, etc]) that it takes to complete a full trip
Stack Size = The stack size of the item you are moving - 100 for caterium

[median heath]

Sorry, ghost ping.

My first impression was that equation is wrong.
I gave myself a chance to reread it and yup, still wrong.

Needs to be removed from the wiki tbh.

[fierce cypress]

Tell the wiki - not me 😛

[median heath]

I have 🙃

[fierce cypress]

Hows it wrong out of curiosity?

[median heath]

Amount of Carriages is simply Desired Throughput / Throughput per Carriage

Throughput per Carriage is a whole different set of equations where you find things like stack size and round trip duration.

[fierce cypress]

Whats the equation for throughput/carriage?

[median heath]

Those are the ones I wrote that are further down on the page.

Throughput Equations: (1560 is used because it is the max of x2 mk5 belts, and all Times are in minutes.)

First you need TimeToFill. Which is reliant on Cargo Stack Size and Car Capacity.

TtF = (StackSize * Car Capacity) / 1560

If TtF >= RtD (Round Trip Duration)
Throughput = ((RtD - 0.45133_) / RtD) * 1560

If TtF < RtD
Throughput = (TtF / RtD) * 1560

Solve that, then take your max per car and just Desired / Max = How many cars you need.

[fierce cypress]

And that's assuming balanced amount in each carriage?

[median heath]

Moreso it assumes max amount per carriage as any remainder wouldn't be a balanced amount and just "last car has the excess."

[fierce cypress]

so overflow through the carts

[median heath]

If you wanted a balanced amount, or are locking the amount any car has to less than max, the original equation is still wrong.