math-and-meta

[young mist]

like ik how to place them

but I dont get the snapping mechanism

[median heath]

The snap to each other?

To make a grid.
That means you don't have to build messy anymore?

[young mist]

huh?

[median heath]

Make a grid using foundations.
Then you build on it.

[young mist]

oh

do I just make that in the air or something? cause my coal deposit is on a rock thats higher up than base ground

cause sometimes when I placed a foundation the ground would clip through the wall

[young mist]

ok I got it

[tawdry sail]

Try to build your base with foundations in a plain terrain first

[median heath]

I do really like how Turbo gives you both a packaged and fluid recipe.

[fierce cypress]

is it an alt or unlocked at the same time?

[median heath]

Same time.

Oddly though, base rifle ammo shoots faster if you're doing bursts.

[fierce cypress]

so turbo takes a few seconds to get to max rpm?

[median heath]

Well yeah, but like... you only get to speedy if you're holding it down and sacrificing accuracy.

[cinder silo]

I'm not that fond of turbo ammo, it results in way too much stormtrooper accuracy.

[median heath]

If you click every shot because you're going for higher accuracy and you wanted to use Turbo for the high mag capacity...

Base shoots like every 0.2s if you're being clicky.
Turbo shoots like every 0.5s.

It's not a huge difference, but it is definitely noticeable.

[fierce cypress]

interesting

[median heath]

Like I was willing to sacrifice the 1 damage per bullet (if wiki is accurate, base is 5 and turbo is 4) for the increased mag capacity from 15 to 75.

But the loss of fire rate when going for accuracy is bothering me.

Doing a video, one sec

[fierce cypress]

i guess turbo is designed to be more of a spray n pray whilst base is more of a dmr accurate weapon

[median heath]

^ Fire Rate comparison.

Also.. unless an Elite Stinger can be brought down in 15 shots idk...
Mag capacity can matter.

Luckily I know where it find and Elite Stinger, brb

[fierce cypress]

yea thats definitely annoying

[oblique hollow]

the high fire rate is definitely more for up close

its like going from rifle to shotgun range

[median heath]

Takes 18 shots to kill an Elite with base ammo.

[oblique hollow]

makes 19 with turbo

[median heath]

?

[oblique hollow]

agh wait

[median heath]

If 18 * 5 = 90

[oblique hollow]

23

[median heath]

Yeah

Going to test on non-elite, but large spooder

11

Hmmm

This is a tough decision.

Why is Turbo's base fire rate worse? 😭

Base can kill anything but the Elite Stinger in 1 clip.

But if you're fighting multiple things you're going to spend more time reloading...

But if you take Turbo for the higher mag capacity and try to use Turbo accurately you have a slower fire rate.

😭

PAIN

[oblique hollow]

tradeoffs

[median heath]

True

[oblique hollow]

just hold down fire for a bit

but not for too long

you trade distance for fire rate

[median heath]

Well in-combat you tend to shoot and move. So slightly lower fire rate gets canceled by reality.

[fierce cypress]

well base can do ~726 damage/min and and turbo does ~442 damage/min assuming a firerate of 2/second tap firing if i can do maths right rn because im tired, i think thats correct though

[median heath]

And since every 1 base bullet (5 damage) converts to 2 turbo bullets (8 damage).
I think I'm going to go with turbo being my default ammo.

[median heath]

This also assumes the times I listed were correct. I was guesstimating.
But I can go back to the video and time them frame by frame if we want accurate numbers.

[fierce cypress]

0.2 is correct according to wiki - and therefore im assuming the 0.5 is too, but if you find that that is wrong i can adjust

and that is also accounting for reload times between clips

and the formula im using for that is 60/({mag size}*{firerate}+3.2)*{mag size}*{bullet dmg}
so for turbo its 60/(75*0.5+3.2)*75*4 = 442.260442...

which i think is right but as i said - im tired

[median heath]

On rewatching Turbo looks closer to 0.375

[fierce cypress]

which bumps it up to ~575 dmg/min

[median heath]

Again this is without actually engaging "Turbo Mode" so to speak.

[fierce cypress]

yup

[median heath]

Hmmm..

[fierce cypress]

turbo mode would be like 0.1?

[median heath]

Yeah I think I'm still sticking with Turbo as my default.

[median heath]

Remind me tomorrow and I will get a video of that to breakdown.

[fierce cypress]

assuming its 0.1 and you hit 100% of shots then you can do 1682 damage/min

[median heath]

@fierce cypress if it matters: Homing seems to be the same fire rate as base.

[fierce cypress]

only really matters if the damage is different - which it might be iirc

yea homing does 6

[cinder silo]

Homing if I recall is slightly higher damage (slightly)

[fierce cypress]

that sounds weird

why have less downsides and more upsides

[median heath]

Odd that homing just automatically becomes "the best" then.

[fierce cypress]

yea

[median heath]

Like if damage was 6-5-4 Base-Homing-Turbo that would make sense.

[cinder silo]

I went with homing just because of the damage, higher rof I found meaningless if I miss more.

[fierce cypress]

that would mean homing has ~871 damage/min

[median heath]

And that homing can actually kill and Elite Stinger in 1 clip.

[cinder silo]

With automated production, homing reliably makes aggressors go away.

Less effort too.

[fierce cypress]

yea 90 DMG/clip

and no need to worry about aiming

seems slightly op to me

[median heath]

Indeed.

[cinder silo]

I tried turbo for a couple of clips and went nope, sunk the rest I had on me.

[median heath]

I just made 12k Turbo, lol

Gotta clear some areas and don't have weapons outpost online yet.

[cinder silo]

I still have turbo automated, now it's there because I cba to rip the line out.

[fierce cypress]

1.5 million sink points just waiting to be sunk

[median heath]

Oh I will have all 3 automated.
Just only ever going to carry 1 type with me.

Going to stick with Turbo in protest that they didn't keep the name "Smartridges" for the homing ammo.

That name was awesome and should have stayed.

[cinder silo]

All 3 automated, I only ever carry homing now.

[median heath]

Idk. I don't really vibe with the bullet effect of homing 🤷‍♂️

[short holly]

Turbo and cluster munitions.

[cinder silo]

Homing bullets out of Zorgs autocannon (fifth element), never know they might be rejects.

[round hamlet]

Does anyone have a nice compact 5-way splitter design? I'm trying to make one of my own just for the sake of having it, but I was curious how small you're able to make them

[median heath]

If I need a 5-way split I just manifold it.

🤷‍♂️

[fierce cypress]

@round hamlet

[median heath]

!wikisearch manifold

[shadow prairie]

https://satisfactory.fandom.com/wiki/Special:Search?query=manifold

[round hamlet]

I'm only making it because I might want it later,

[cinder silo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPE-BAlg0xA&list=PLQo-FPWWaZE-jn38NUxfxh5S2VyJNjnO3&index=4 for 5 way split, but unless it's radioactive, as said above, you're better off manifolding.

[round hamlet]

--I know what a dang manifold is woah

[round hamlet]

also I already watched this video earlier, it's not smaller than what I have

[cinder silo]

Well load balancers aren't known for being compact 🤷‍♂️ , I tried.

[median heath]

Manifolds are known for being compact and being identical in efficiency, but they don't want one.
I also tried 🤷‍♂️

[round hamlet]

alright i've decided that the one I already have is good enough for a simple BP
Thanks anyways

I usually manifold too, I was just curious

[fierce cypress]

@round hamlet something like this is probably the most compact, or just doing it flat and squishing everything as close as possible together

[median heath]

If you're not using the vertical element you're not as compact as you can be 🤷‍♂️

[cinder silo]

Shame there is a minimum vertical distance conveyor lifts are allowed to use.

[fierce cypress]

(this is the bottlenecked version though)

[round hamlet]

Yeah I thought about vertical but didn’t do anything with it
In retrospect I definitely should have

It’s late

[fierce ruin]

Anyone able to help me out? Not sure where I should put this question

I am making an iron factory but I am not very good at logistics, could someone help me out with how I would/ could do this?

I have up to Mk.4 belts unlocked

[wind spade]

logistics are shown there, the arrows mean resource flow

[oblique hollow]

if your question is "how do i split the ingots or other parts up" the answer is dont merge all in the first place.

ore wise? just shove it in and wait until it overflows

you have 5 mk 4 belts of input, so dividing that up over 80 smelters isnt hard either

just 16 smelters per belt

if you wanted to you could balance that by splitting in half again and again

[frosty owl]

Machines and their clock are the most underrated load-balancer

[oblique hollow]

yep

they are quite literally conveyor rate adjusters

[frosty owl]

Tbf, do have this "caveut" of turning the items into something else in a different amount too...

[queen leaf]

I am aware this isnt right. But how can I...make it?

Or would it be more reasonable to go manifold here

[stark bronze]

just manifold it looks like a set up that you dont want to spend excessive resources on

[queen leaf]

As I thought, cheers

[noble timber]

It’s always more reasonable to manifold imo

[tropic hawk]

Manifold.

[fading coyote]

Always manifold

Just wait it out. Also how do you do 50->20+30 from one split

[median heath]

You answered that yourself.
"Just wait it out."

[fading coyote]

Huh

[median heath]

20 side is getting 25, which will eventually fill.
After which you have a 20/30 split.

[fading coyote]

Oh I see

Yeah just do a pure manifold at that point don't bother with looping back

[median heath]

@cinder silo after testing in actual combat scenarios of various types, Turbo is still going to be my go-to.
Mag capacity really shines and often you can get to the higher fire rate while maintaining accuracy given the size of most enemies.

Only the lil spooders are difficult to snap-shot tbh.

Also if you get to full spool with the spread AF accuracy it's remarkable how many projectiles from Alpha Spitters you destroy.

[versed violet]

are belts supposed to snap to vonveyor lift holes? Looks kind of broken

[cinder silo]

Fair enough, I still prefer the fire & forget of homing, less effort in combat means more attention goes to not getting clobbered due to being poor at that sort of gameplay, far more relaxing 🙂

[versed violet]

Seconded. Also by the time turbo looses accuracy, the enemy is already close enough that accuracy becomes non an issue.

[fierce cypress]

i think they're lifts only

[versed violet]

this belt definitelly tried to lift... off

[median heath]

Still think it is bullshit that homing does the most damage @versed violet

[cinder silo]

I'm surprised the homing rounds don't just have regular rifle round damage instead of doing more.

[median heath]

Base should do the most, as I said yesterday.

6-5-4 Base-Home-Turbo

^ Perfection

[primal crypt]

try other way maybe

[versed violet]

Do conveyor floor holes work correctly with roofs?

[oblique hollow]

should

ive had no issues with them so far

[versed violet]

I've had them not passing items twice so far. Lifts just not accepting items

and lifts do not work with 0.5m increments when using floor holes, do they? or just not working with 0.5m at all?

[median heath]

Probably not with 0.5 given they were made prior to roofs and the smallest foundation is 1m.

(If I had to guess)

[versed violet]

yay, I have created an illegal connection
as in, it doesnt work. no click. items get stuck.

This place is cursed and I wish not to return here in nearest or farthest future

[odd spire]

thats your own fault tho

[versed violet]

being stubborn and not wanting to redesign half of my base? yes.

[deft lichen]

the best part of this game is the realization that the player is the biggest cause of the player's problems

[odd spire]

i've learned me lesson and by default space add some more spacing to some builds

[versed violet]

yeah, the spot was designed before they added more biomass options

[cinder silo]

Damn that belt work looks cursed.

That all to storage?

[versed violet]

the first spitter is aligned to whole meters, but further ones are lifted by a beam by 0.5m because otherwise the belts to constructors will not connect. constructoirs sitting 1m above the storage units height

[versed violet]

backside of this #math-and-meta message

[cinder silo]

Suddenly I'm very happy all my stuff is built in a compartmentalised way.

[versed violet]

stupid me added processing of the biomass stuff, so I can just drop a stack and it auto sorts, and if box is full, auto processes the overflow into higher tier item.

bottom floor: leaves, wood, mycelium -> biomas, petals->paint, Biomas->biofuel.
top floor - hog, spitter, hatcher, stinger -> protein, protein -> dna capsules

[cinder silo]

Not a bad thing having a biomass/shards/flowers factory, usually just better in its own structure and feed the stores after.

[versed violet]

definitely dont spend hours trying to squeeze it all in

[cinder silo]

This is my biomass and crap tower, ground floor does power shards from all three types of slugs, first floor converts all the wood/leaves and crap to solid biofuel, second floor does all alien parts to protein, third floor floor does flowers to colour cartridges and sinks crap, the building itself also separates out berries/nuts & agaric in to a container, and sends useless & spare crap to the sink.

[versed violet]

you like open spaces. Pretty sure I could fit my whole central storage in just the free corridors of that space

[cinder silo]

Makes retrofitting far easier, my central storage is significant but in two parts.

You could probably fit a load in this space, top being the actual surface level of my storage, bottom being the sorting & buffer level.

[grave flume]

The beginning of my first ever Crystal Oscillator factory. 373 Quartz Crystal/min, 445.5 iron ingots/min, and 300 copper ingots/min. Hopefully turning into 20 Oscillators/min if I've done my math right.

[golden smelt]

how do I calculate my needed input if I have my wanted output, like if I want to make 4 rotors a min, then how much iron would need I need a min as an input

[vapid gorge]

satisfactorytools.com

or just work backwards by hand

[tawdry sail]

I like to do it with signs step by step. But you can use excel or satisfactorytools ( i dont like it 🤧 )

[ornate osprey]

I need help. i dont understand. i am making Batteries. The Batteries from the blender put out 75 water, i have a water extractor adding another 105 water, to keep up with the 180 needed. BUT it keeps overflowing. what am i missing????

[fierce cypress]

pipes =/= belts, you can't just simply merge them in most cases, you need to prioritise the byproduct water in some way

[ornate osprey]

Any suggestions how to prioritse the water byproduct with pipes?

[mortal egret]

I typically recycle it, then use wet concrete to dispose of the rest

[fierce cypress]

VIP/Segregated Byproduct System

VIP
Segregated System (best solution imo)
Use in other production - coal gens, wet concrete etc
Package and sink (worst solution imo)

[mortal egret]

My most recent system, I have my water being recycled, then a separate pipe going up, which leads to wet concrete production, so then recycling the water gets prioritized, then the water gets dumped into concrete

[fierce cypress]

i always use segregated systems

[ornate osprey]

haven't unlocked wet concrete on this play through yet. right now i have water by product merged into water pump, then into an industrial fluid buffer, then to production. thought process, is the fresh and by products combine in the buffer before going to the source.

[fierce cypress]

what will a buffer do to help?

answer: ||nothing||

[fierce cypress]

a buffer won't help, it will cause more issues

[vapid gorge]

I put a pump right before the waste enters the main line to make sure there isn't backflow and works for me. Make sure you don't use valves though

[ornate osprey]

i'll try that. maybe a pump will prioritize the byproduct. should i put a valve on the incoming fresh line also?

[fierce cypress]

pumps wont prioritise, and cobalt specifically said to not use valves

the pump is to prevent backflow - such as fresh water clogging the output - which is what is happening

[ornate osprey]

i see. thank you

[vapid gorge]

no valves. Unless you're doing pipe voodoo never use valves. Also fluid buffers should be avoided unless you're doing minor voodoo

[fierce cypress]

voodoo meaning fluids + trains

thats the only use case i can think of

[vapid gorge]

and obscure priority junctions which apparently may or may not work properly.

[oblique hollow]

VIP is the most eldritch Voodoo there is

[frosty owl]

[vapid gorge]

I'm glad you don't change your DP

[frosty owl]

"Dp"?

[vapid gorge]

display pic

[summer rock]

what's VIP?

[frosty owl]

It's a pipe you care a lot about, a Very Important Pipe.
So important, that you make sure that it will always have fluid while leaving only the overflow for other pipes...

TLDR: Variable Input Priority (junction) for pipes

[noble timber]

There’s VIP and VOP. I = input, O = output

[summer rock]

okay thanks I just read the pinned guide and I think I understand it completely now. Some of those circuits are genius, thanks so much for that guide McGalleon.

so would implementing VOP be the best and correctest way to manifold pipes?

[oblique hollow]

eeeeh its optional

the best manifold is a regular manifold, no fancy shenanigans

just follow the rules for manifolds

[summer rock]

yeah add the loop and put the main pipe above the machines right?

[oblique hollow]

yeah, above or at the same height as machine inputs

and loops must always begin at the same junction at which your inout pipe is attached

whether or not the loop goes to the end of the manifold is less important

but it has to start at the input

[cinder silo]

Speaking of manifolds, I'm getting the impression that my floors aren't getting the expected 900 oil per (2 inputs of 450 per floor)

[oblique hollow]

welll... connection issue? is it all filled? etc

[cinder silo]

It was when I first onlined, problem is it has gradually declined to what you see here.

[oblique hollow]

those 3 look suspiciously like a connection issue

wait... theres multiple ones

[cinder silo]

I had to throw the global power switch to let the whole thing fill.

[oblique hollow]

exactly half of it is offline

... are you not getting enough oil?

[cinder silo]

One moment, I'll clip the layout, it's merely starved rather than completely offline.

[oblique hollow]

from your extractors i mean

a 50% dead setups is really sus

[cinder silo]

Quick look at the overhead pipes, all four floors are setup like this, I have to shut the whole thing off to make it catch up, the numbers from the pipeline should be giving me 900 per floor (two inputs of 450) , it's shorting as you can see.

The issue only shows on the ground and first floors, they all use identical plumbing.

If it is shorting like that because of an issue in the pipeline that I've gone over, the only thing I can think of is to try taking up some spare oil from the nearby ammunition factory, there is at least 100 spare to try to keep the pipes at pressure.

[oblique hollow]

when in doubt apply pipeline pump

no headlift exceeding anywhere, right?

[cinder silo]

this shaft is the only place for pumps, I used mk2s but they are around 25 metres apart.

[short holly]

if the oil is pumping in at full rate... was your usage math right? 😉

[cinder silo]

I shut the whole thing off to repressurise the system, I'll find out how long it takes to fall behind again, it's looking like I'm going to have to add the extra oil from the well.

The math was, all four floors are identical, the pipeline brings 450 oil per pipe (eight pipes) to the refinery proper, two pipes per floor, I'm not seeing the extractors stall.

Yet the ground and first floors are the ones with the problems, not the second or third.

[oblique hollow]

check if their feed pipes actually deliver 450 on average

check at the very bottom input

at the start if it all, but not directly at the extractors

[cinder silo]

Sorry about the delay, I had to rush out the door, I'll take another look.

There is definitely an issue somewhere, left it running for 90 minutes and the refineries that shouldn't be stalling, are starved again.

[short holly]

bizarre. if its sending in 3600 oil at full rate and no stalls, it implies it's all being used. leaky.

[cinder silo]

I'm shunting some spare oil from the nearby ammunition factory to the two deficient loops to see if that'll help.

Hmm, I got the shunt in, the ground floor issue resolved right away but I'm not seeing the first floor go.

[cinder silo]

Looks like that extra oil from the well got the refineries two bottom floors up to pressure, I'll leave it for a few hours and see how it plays out, looks fixed, I am still curious as to what caused the pipeline issues.

[oblique hollow]

depending on the save size i can attempt to inspect it

[cinder silo]

My save is about 26mb or so.

[cinder silo]

Needs 32gb to load, experimenting with the pipeline will need the shunt taking out in the tunnels.

[oblique hollow]

ayy, i only got 24

dont ask about it

[devout kelp]

I feel like this is pretty simple, but I’m having trouble working it out; I’m making a big diluted fuel factory and I need to underclock my fuel generators to consume 10 fuel / minute. Help would be appreciated :D

What percent would I need to underclock them to reach the desired usage per minute?

[frosty owl]

I like to use proportions for this sort of issue...
10:12 = X:100
Where 10 is the desired output, 12 is the standard, X the clock corresponding to the desired output and 100 the standard clock

So X = 10x100/12

@devout kelp

[devout kelp]

Ok that makes sense, thank you very much!

[cinder silo]

Aw 😦 , no problem.

[frosty owl]

Someone broke a memory stick

[oblique hollow]

No i upgraded but only got 16 GB extra and kept the old 8

[median heath]

Buys McGalleon 🐏 for Christmas

[oblique hollow]

[cinder silo]

The main downside of having an ever expanding map, the memory requirements and load times are brutal.

[median heath]

"Bro this game like would like bro totally bro like be so much like better if like bro they made the map brocedurally generated. Like bro."

[pallid sand]

what?

[median heath]

[pallid sand]

🤨

[fierce cypress]

we should ask snutt for a brocedurally generated map

[median heath]

Bruh.

[oblique hollow]

initiate the brocedure

[median heath]

Yes. 😁

[vivid imp]

Henlo pionners ! 😸

I have a powerplant made of 24 coal generators, if i've done my maths rights, i'll give just the right amount of water with my 9 water extractors.
It's a pretty simple setup, each pipe going into one corner of my powerplant (see the 2nd screenshot)
Not using mystical things like powershards, because i need to keep my setup derpy friendly for my poor brain. 😅

For some reasons, i still struggle with pipes, that's why i'm posting this here...
I kinda need some Ficsit approval, for legal reasons, 'cause last time my insurance didn't believe me when i told them that everything was fine before a wild lizzard doggo messed up my settings. 😇

[median heath]

Read the description of mk1 pipes.

Then read the description of Extractors.
Then do the math about numbers greater than 300.

Also buffers are not good.

Also if you're expecting perfect splits in that first image, reminder to never think about pipes in terms of belts.

[cinder silo]

Not exactly how I'd do the plumbing.

[snow dove]

with pipes, just manifold them

load balancers are 100% useless with pipes

[cinder silo]

Coal pipes kept simple.

[vivid imp]

Erf. 😣 I thought i'll "avoid" the 300 limit by spliting the pipes.
Train of thought was : if pipe 1 (far left) reach 300m3, then pipe 2 (middle left) will take the leftover

[median heath]

And if pipes behaved like belts you would have been fine.

[vivid imp]

I read somewhere it can help for headlift troubles, that's why i did that

[median heath]

You read wrong.

Outside of fluid trains, buffers either cause issues or do literally nothing.
They never help.

[vivid imp]

And you never have trouble to fill the one at the end of the line ? Because i have that problem, and that's why i wanted to bring water by all the corners

Sorry people, i just wanna be sure to understand well, don't wanna annoy anyone

[median heath]

Let the pipes fill completely before you turn the generators on.

[cinder silo]

The coal plant I pictured has 3 extractors at each end.

[median heath]

Then origin of fluid doesn't matter.

[cinder silo]

I let it fully prime before letting it power on, I even let coal fill before connecting the generator to the mains,

[vivid imp]

Ok ok thanks you two ! Have a nice day !

[median heath]

She said.. at 7 p.m. 😭

[vivid imp]

It's 2 a.m. here. 🙃 can't sleep, need more pipes 😆

[cinder silo]

Don't worry about annoying people, this place is here for folk to discuss and problem solve, not judge.

[median heath]

Only thing that will annoy people is if you write the date in the wrong order.

[vivid imp]

That struggle. That ONE struggle. 😆

[vivid imp]

Last question and i'm going back to my plumbing, is it ok to fill the water by the bottom instead of the top like on your picture ?

[cinder silo]

Usually works ok with a few caveats (namely fun with mk2 pipes) but even those issues can be fixed with a loop, I top fed in the above case to enable me to walk around the place without going for a swim.

[median heath]

Which direction doesn't matter as long as you know what you're doing.

[vapid gorge]

I'd personally suggest avoiding having input pipes from the manifold being at a lower elevation than the machines. You can do it, I do it, but if you're having difficulty with pipes just keep it simple and feed from the same or higher elevation. Pipes in general are tricky

[random moat]

Quick question, does anyone know what the ratio is between hand crafting with the hammer to the seconds it takes to produce a said item? Is the ratio different between the Craft Bench and the Equipment Workshop?

[versed violet]

Check workshop and craft bench wiki pages. It even has following section ```Crafting consumable equipment

Crafting consumable equipment at Craft Bench takes 2x crafting clicks compared to Equipment Workshop. For example, crafting Iron Rebar requires two crafting clicks at Craft Bench but only needs one crafting click at the Equipment Workshop. ```

[random moat]

Okay. I was hoping that there was a set ratio between the number of hammers and the number of machine seconds to craft, but it looks like they differ per recipe. Thanks for the help.

[vapid gorge]

Unless you're doing some sort of speedrun how much does it matter?

[shy berry]

can anyone spend 5 or so minutes with me helping me figure out some numbers to establish

[stark bronze]

providing the numbers beforehand helps

[pastel matrix]

you shoulda seen the conv o we had with him in #satisfactory

[versed leaf]

is this a way to load balance the conveyor thing?

[oblique hollow]

idk what you are even doing there

wtf, are those hub parts?

[versed leaf]

carbon dust from one of the mods I'm doing but I don't think it changes the nature of the question
I'm trying to get the belts to balance themselves if one of them is backed up and the other doesn't have enough

[oblique hollow]

if one belt backs up it automatically moves the rest to the other belt

if neither backs up its a 50/50 split

[versed leaf]

but if all of them are doing 50/50 splits at the same time then nothing should change across the output of each belt?

[oblique hollow]

yes

if none of them are expected to ever back up this doesnt do anything

though idk why you need this

you know the exact production rate of machines that feed each belt

and you know how much the next machines need

[versed leaf]

basically each belt is running at 400 and I have 10 machines for each of the bottom three consuming 450 total

oh I guess I could just underclock huh

[oblique hollow]

yes

avoid headache, adjust clock rate

[versed leaf]

im dumb thanks love you

[still brook]

so apparently trains are not the go for massive bases according to this reddit post
https://www.reddit.com/r/SatisfactoryGame/comments/yz7ih0/100_thermal_rockets_per_minute/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

[fierce cypress]

massive bases are not the go for satisfactory - decentralisation is recommended by the game itself

[still brook]

Yeah sure, that’s why I said bases, not base

[fierce cypress]

according to the comments?

[still brook]

Yea that person is saying using trains cost them 100+ fps over belts

[fierce cypress]

i feel like their fps/ups loss is just something that comes with sheer scale of the world at an end game stage - not specifically that trains are any worse in particular

[fierce cypress]

this is untested

and belts have other issues as well - and also hit cpu performance

[still brook]

That’s exactly what they said they tested

[fierce cypress]

where does it say the tested it?

ah found it

imo don't rule them out just because you're planning on going big, there are plenty of massive saves that use trains - such as taro's, and i think the performance difference would be relatively minimal and the amount of extra work would be extreme

[still brook]

yeah agreed, I don't think it's a hard rule but it would be cool to see some more testing around it

[wind spade]

I didn't do any testing myself but I highly doubt that 50 trains + 50 vehicles make 120 fps difference over 100s of long belts

(not to mention the belt resource loss)

[still brook]

It's possible that there's something specific about how that person is playing that makes belts more efficient - not that I can actually think of anything off the top of my head that would cause that

But again, some isolated experiments would be great to verify

[frosty owl]

I'm inclined to think that is the case too...
Bur I can't say anything for certain until they answer me about those tests they mentioned 🤷‍♂️

[still brook]

Yeah it's not something that you can do in a tiny factory either

[frosty owl]

You can... If your hardware is as tiny

[vapid gorge]

Are you saying that cause this weirdo just belted stuff?

[vapid gorge]

This seems unlikely

I wouldn’t really trust reddit commentary. I still see people coming here saying you actually lose items on belts and that it only happens on mk5s

Because that’s what it says on reddit

[frosty owl]

All of my guides and research are on Reddit though...

[vapid gorge]

And why would I trust anything from a literal nobody?

[frosty owl]

That's fair

[oblique hollow]

Surely Im not a nobody, all my sources are clearly cited

[vapid gorge]

Aren’t all your citation ‘McGalleon - me’ ?

[oblique hollow]

Yes

'Source - i made it the fuck up'

[vapid gorge]

I wish I could have gotten away with that with my lecturers

Though I guess I kinda did with my research.

But it was just rehashing so not worthwhile

[oblique hollow]

the benefit of doing your own research - less sources to cite

[vapid gorge]

‘Source - fuck you, I collected it.’

Academia has embittered me

[visual wave]

'Source - My thoughts.'

[neat crest]

does anyone know where I could get a table of all the resource nodes' coordinates to put into Excel

I want to make a sheet of node "clusters" and their potential at each miner & OC level without having to visually go by SCIM maps

[oblique notch]

There is a Mod that exports them as a json... you could also try contacting Anthor, the author of SCIM as he may have them

In a format you can use*

[still brook]

No need to go insulting people.
But no that’s not what I’m saying, it’s more “here’s a data point” and I’d be interested to see some more non anecdotal experimentation either proving or disproving the persons claim.

[oblique notch]

id hazard there are way to many factors to determine the validty of such a claim

[still brook]

I’d agree there are a lot of factors that make up your final fps, butt I’m sure it would be possible to try isolate it

For example, maybe a test where the goal is to move 10000 ore/min 2km in a straight line

That would test raw throughout, then the next step might be to somehow add in signalling for the trains, maybe initially you run them on seperate lines, but then put them all on one line and see how that changes things

[oblique notch]

mmm but frame rate is also heavily effected in SF by the number of machiens you have running in the close area, how many are in the 'distant simplified calculations' mode and how many are close by in full load ...

and trucks having a completely different behavior than belts than trains when "not near by" is another factor

[still brook]

True so maybe you paste in some factory and then run the same test

[cinder silo]

@vivid thicket here's the two slug respawns I have a permanent cannon to in order to farm.

[vivid thicket]

Yeah this one is different location

I got Perma respawning in spire coast biome

[cinder silo]

I don't go back to the spire now the oil pipeline collecting all the areas oil is working.

[vivid thicket]

This prob means it's 3 perma

Will collect all and see

[cinder silo]

🙂

[vivid thicket]

Got more than 2/3 collected already

[cinder silo]

The respawning slugs have left me with hundreds of power shards more than I should ever have, at one point when the green slugs changed to blue, every single blue repopped.

[vivid thicket]

That's interesting

Only had blues repop single time sometimes with purple or yellow

[cinder silo]

All the blues respawning was a 1 time thing after they were changed from green.

[vivid thicket]

But those repops happen on recently collected areas

[cinder silo]

The two in the above clip repop every time I load in.

[vivid thicket]

I thought everyone is collectable forever and won't repop

Because I heard that some repopped in u3

Thought it may be fixed already

[cinder silo]

Likewise, a couple are busted and don't stay gone.

[vivid thicket]

Even got saying gotta catch them all when i started slug hunt with scim help XD

[cinder silo]

Repops Ho-yay!

[vivid thicket]

I guess i have similar amount

Had 400 powers shard worth power slugs before slug hunt

Out of doggos

[cinder silo]

Taken a while to farm up but I'm not going to complain about spare shards.

got 300 shards in use in my reactor hall just to have all of the machines there at the same clock speed.

[vivid thicket]

Last time I checked i had 3 stacks of purples 3 yellows and 5 blue

So that's alot of power shard of those

[cinder silo]

I should get back to hunting slugs again.

[vivid thicket]

With save reload bug?

[cinder silo]

I still need to clear the non respawning slugs off the map (in some cases again but yay)

[vivid thicket]

I think only dunes, desert canyon, titan forest and maze canyon left to clear for me

[cinder silo]

I guess they won't add enough new stuff to the awesome shop to use 2715 coupons.

[vivid thicket]

Lol

[lunar falcon]

i am really bad at math can someone help me?

[vivid thicket]

K

[tropic hawk]

Sure, what do you need?

[median heath]

Odd choice of game tbh.

[tropic hawk]

We don't judge people for their decisions, but we do try to help with their future ones

[median heath]

If you interpret that as judgmental idk what to say 🤷‍♂️

[lunar falcon]

i get 1.200 crude oil a minute by 2 oil extractors, i can turn it into 1.600 heavy oil residue from 40 refineries, i want to turn it into turbo fuel by an alternate recipe which takes 5 heavy oil residue every 8 seconds. so i wonder how many refineries i need for that last step.

[tropic hawk]

Press O to open the codex, go to Turbofuel then look at the entry. It will tell you the consumption rate in items/min

After that there is an ingame calculator you can use with N

[slender jay]

omg that calculator is very useful

ty just learned about it

[median heath]

N for Nalculator

[long crow]

Math Question:

23 fuel generators consuming 100 turbo fuel/min.
is the 100% efficient target MW eq "((100/4.5)*150)/23)"?

[median heath]

No?

If you have 23 Fuel Gens consuming X amount per minute, your MW is just 23 * 150.

[oblique hollow]

just dont clock generators until update 7 arrives in EA

its ugly, its a headache, its not worth it

[long crow]

i need to underclock the 23 generators tho right? because for 100 turbofuel input, id need 22.222... fuel generators to consume it all

im on experimental

[median heath]

Your method is wrong.

[long crow]

I thought patch notes said they changed it to linear already

[median heath]

You're starting with 23 gens and then worrying about how to get the fuel into them.

Start with the fuel amount and see how many gens it can feed.

[long crow]

I have 100 turbofuel/min

which would fuel 22.222... fuel generators

[median heath]

Ok. So that gives you 22.2222 Gens.

[long crow]

what do I need to underclock each power generator at given that fuel input

[median heath]

Personally I would clean that up by making 22 and an overflow hook to packaged the extra 0.2222

Although personally I wouldn't put Turbofuel in a generator to begin with if we're being honest.

[cinder silo]

Yeah mine were clocked, when U7 hit I had to change the clocks to the linear formula.

[oblique hollow]

clocking all generators is pointless

you clock one and thats it

[cinder silo]

All of mine were clocked because of the load balancer, had I not then a lot of them would have stacks of fuel but the clocked ones would have been starving for ages, I built to eliminate radioactivity not promote it, otherwise I'd have left the manifold there to feed it all.

[tropic hawk]

22 @ 100%, 1 @ 22.2222%

[median heath]

Overflow simpler 🤷‍♂️

[vapid gorge]

I can say someone is a weirdo for only belts coming in from long distances if I like.

Also it would be extremely difficult to actively determine what causes fos drops more. You’d have to have perfect control of your computer background processes, know exactly where and how terrain chunks load and differentiate between lower mk belts and connections and actual throughput

We know more objects increase load, we know more math increases load. Likely belts have more for each in vaguely equivalent logistics

[alpine cedar]

i like belts more than trains, however i'm still building a 4-wide train line across my world.

the fact you can pick up items from belts probably degrades performance and causes a lot of bugs, but it's essential to the game, so removing it would be chaos. either way belt rendering should probably be simplified and optimized if possible (though it may be as optimized as possible already lol)

[vapid gorge]

yeah but this specifically is moving lots of things long distance over belts and frame rate issues

[barren elm]

Feels like the kind of thing you could easily test if you cared enough

Throw 8 containers full of iron plates into SCIM, and a huge 8 lane belt leading to 8 more containers

Copy/paste that 100 times or whatever, run the game, see what your fps is like

Throw a 1:4 train onto a similar length track, which should be roughly equivalent, copy/paste that 100 times, run it, compare fps

There's literally 0 dynamic train logic in satisfactory so rail network size shouldn't be a factor, but you could probably make a test for that too

[little ginkgo]

If I have a merging manifold, do I have to take the output from either end or the middle, or can it be offset any?

Like this

I can't think of why it wouldn't work

[mystic moon]

That would work

[little ginkgo]

I thought it would be, but I keep messing up my mental math cuz i'm kinda tired. Thought it best to check my work.

[abstract rapids]

why is this like this? I even have pumps right before this even though I shouldn't need pumps based off of what I know..

[keen patio]

That looks normal and fine? the flow rate from the bottom/first pipe is the same as the flow rate through the 2nd pipe shown. As long as the system is drawing the liquid, at the same or more rate than they are filled, pipes at the same level won't 'fill up' the bubble guage.

The only reason the first pipe is full is because it is a lower pipe (I ASSUME the liquid is flowing up based your mention of pumps.)

[abstract rapids]

it is going up

[keen patio]

Then my first statement stands; whats the problem?

[abstract rapids]

I didn't know that I should base the flow off of flow rate instead of the bubble, I just assumed that the bubble would stay the same.

[keen patio]

-nod- yea, flowrate is generally the more important of the 2. The bubble only fills if gravity forces it, or there is no 'taker' for the pipes contents.

[abstract rapids]

it makes sense now

[keen patio]

Now, if you're expecting the flow rate to be 200 from the bottom, and its only getting 50 at the top, then yea, you have a problem!

[abstract rapids]

that it would be different

what is the output of a coal generator?

[keen patio]

Power? 75mw

[abstract rapids]

like, not the intake, but the output

[median heath]

It doesn't have one.

The only power generator in the game that has an output is nuclear.

[frosty owl]

I'm inclined to think signs are worse for performance than trains. They seem pretty well optimized, not falling behind belts imo

[mint sky]

Replace it. Liquids like to malfunction

[oblique hollow]

this has nothing to do with that

the pipe doesnt fill because it has no reason to

it flows just fine

[wind spade]

pipe flow =/= pipe contents

[vivid thicket]

so there is 4 respawning power slugs 3 yellow and 1 blue total also there is crash site with respawning computers and HMF

2 yellow with blue close to each other in dune

and one in spyre biome

i guess this bug is somewhat related to world border

[vivid thicket]

here is power slugs i collected

[echo turret]

does anyone by some chance know how i can split a 210 line into 17 constructors?

[oblique hollow]

you use overflow

[echo turret]

but i only have 10 to spare

[oblique hollow]

also thats a really odd number

[echo turret]

200 into 16.66 constructors

[oblique hollow]

thats the beauty of overflow

it works anyway

[echo turret]

but will it still work if i just have one line where i have splitters or do i have to split it kind of equal?

[oblique hollow]

you can give it a try, make a line of splitters and just shove it in.
it will take a while, but the machines will fill

[echo turret]

ok nice

[wind spade]

--S--S--S--S--...--SmS--> overflow
  |  |  |  |        |
  X  X  X  X        X

[echo turret]

its a long time since i have played and i thought i had to think

[wind spade]

SmS = smart splitter
S = splitter
X = machine or whatever needs resources

[echo turret]

thanks

so overflow is just a cheap cheat code? :thumb:

[oblique hollow]

kinda

[wind spade]

it's not really cheating 🤷‍♂️ but it's used by majority of players I'd say

[echo turret]

i have 150 hours on this world and never knew that overflow was that easy

[oblique hollow]

always time to learn new things

[wind spade]

you also don't need the smart splitter at the end if you have exactly as much as you need

[oblique hollow]

consider diverting the extra 10 at the source

i guess its steel ingots?

no wait... 12/min

wth takes 12/min

[abstract rapids]

am I doing something wrong here?

[oblique notch]

Yeah some hit boxes on those floor holes are difficult at best (if not broken like in EXP)

Try building too the floor hole instead of from it or replace it and try again

[abstract rapids]

I tried both ways

[echo turret]

now you have had some time to think. The answer is quickwire, it needs 12/min Caterium Ingots

[oblique notch]

Yeah. They can be really finicky unfortunately. Sometimes a reload can help, sometimes you need to delete everything around it and it. Sometimes you need to just pull the lift through the foundation and use the hole as pretend decorator 🤣

[stiff gust]

Hey, where do you think is the best spot to have large quantities of water extractors? I mean like huge amounts (about 400)

[deft lichen]

north coast

huge and it's not fake water

[cinder silo]

I'd never be able to fill that area with nukes, not enough uranium.

[round moon]

120 iron and coal per min but at what cost

[vapid gorge]

well 120 iron and coal. That's the cost. I thought it was very upfront

[round moon]

every number has a decimal

[vapid gorge]

Get Iron wire and need no copper

[round moon]

there are no whole numbers

[round moon]

but then it would use more than 120 iron

[vapid gorge]

ah. I tend to do iron heavy things near lots of iron

[wind spade]

learn to work with decimals, you'll need them soon anyway

[round moon]

i am building this next to about 5 pure iron nodes

so i should probably use iron wire

but i dont have it and i have already built some of it

there are also 3 copper nodes next to the iron anyways

[vapid gorge]

Fair enough. I do enjoy being able to make stuff out of as few resource types 🙂

[round moon]

true

if i had the iron wire alt i wouldve used that

just to eliminate the need for copper

usually i try to use as few resource types as possible

but ive only used like 3 hard drives so far and im at tiers 5-6 lol

been putting off hdd hunting

[vapid gorge]

ah yeah, save up a bunch to simply bauxite as much as you can is also good

[rigid hollow]

You should literally almost never need rods in any recipe again

Psa to everyone, stop using rods

Hdd hunt until you sub them out

[still brook]

I still use rods for making mod frames, but I use the steel rod recipe

[vapid gorge]

That's gotta be the hipster response to rod production

[fierce cypress]

do you need to produce many alu sheets for recipies?

or can you get away with casings only

[stark bronze]

according to this spreadsheet aluminum sheet isnt used for anything else

[vapid gorge]

Batteries I think?

reasonable to make heat sinks from case or sheets too

from the looks of things though you can jsut have a few sheets being made for personal use and cut them out of the automation side of the game though

[stark bronze]

yeah getting copper to aluminum area is icky

[vapid gorge]

Even if you use them for both the heat sink and batteries recipe you dont' need MUCH copper, especially if you use the alloy or pure recipe

neither are 2 products you generally need a million of

Like even if you were doing 2k pm sheets that's only like 666pm copper ingots which could be 333 or less ore

[fierce cypress]

thats what the pure alt is for

all of this is just for pure copper/sheets

[stark bronze]

its weird that sheets have an pure alt like other ores but isnt used in alclad instead of ingots

[vapid gorge]

what?

[magic island]

an alt for Copper Sheet -> Alclad Sheet would make sense

but honestly, default Alclad Sheets are already such a generous recipe it's nbd

[stark bronze]

steamed sheet works like pure ingot alts where you add water to get more, giving copper sheet an ingot-like status
but the one time copper sheets can be used like ingots (alclad aluminum) they still use ingot for it

[fierce cypress]

yea im making 270 sheets/min, which should hopefully be enough

[vapid gorge]

ah right so you're thinking you should be able to use a sheet like thing with them. Yeah I can see that. Maybe it's both ingots becaues they need to be alloyed together

Might be a change in the great destruction of all bases of 1.0

[stark bronze]

i did some research when translating this and alclad sheets are literally aluminum plated copper sheets (no alloying involved)

so it makes even more sense to use sheets in this recipe

[vapid gorge]

Interesting. Might very much be a change in 1.0

[mortal egret]

I'm having to use almost 100 Refineries for my Nuclear set up
46 of which just for copper ingots

[fierce cypress]

what i have there is 35 i think

[vapid gorge]

yeah I've got nearly 100 double stacked, almost entirely for copper ingots. More for sheets

about all of them clocked to 200% or more

[fierce cypress]

hmm should i try sushi for the first time?

[vapid gorge]

Sure? It's not hard.

just more planning if you're trying to keep a tight and neat layout

[fierce cypress]

how does one do sushi?

[vapid gorge]

largely you want groupings of 2 or more items from clocked machines feeding 1 line that will go to anothe rgroup of machines to be used. With a sink at the end for emergencies

there's no one way of doing it though.
My beacon factory has 3 of the 4 components on one line and the 4th takes up it's own that doesn't need to be sushied

[fierce cypress]

how do you do the inputs to the manifold?

just a simple merge?

[vapid gorge]

so if your reinforced iron plate line needed 300 screws and 400 plates do you'd merge those ouputs

pretty much. Then set the smart splitters to feed the right item into the machine and 'overflow' forward at each step

You want the end of the sushi manifold line to have an overflow towards a sink so it doesn' tback up.

Once it's stable it shouldn't need that overflow but you prob want to keep it in case of a bug

[fierce cypress]

im doing assemblers - so the first smart would be the 1st item and the 2nd the second?

[vapid gorge]

yup

and if you could have the inputs facing the central sushi line so item A could be fed left and right and overflow centre

[fierce cypress]

yea thats what im doing

[vapid gorge]

My thing with sushi is if you're doing neat architectural design you need to plan it ahead more

[fierce cypress]

mines just going to be like this

[vapid gorge]

Sometimes it's easy , sometimes it just won't realistically work with my system.

I'd half planned to make my 12k pm QW factory to be sushied but... I didn't want to make a balancer for hte cat ingots

[vapid gorge]

yup, should work as long as you do the rest right

[fierce cypress]

the rest being input and output?

[vapid gorge]

wdym?

[fierce cypress]

the input to the mani and the output to the mani

[vapid gorge]

oh well you'd want an overflow output at the very end to catch extras

[fierce cypress]

the main thing im unsure about is how i'm meant to input the items

[vapid gorge]

oh ok so what are the 2 parts you're moving?

[fierce cypress]

19 assemblers making alu sheets - 190 Cu ingots + 570 Al ingots

the Cu ingots are coming from refs nearby - whilst the Ai ingots are being shipped in my train

[vapid gorge]

ok so lets say the first smart splitter will have left and right set to Cu ingots , centre to overflow
Next ss will have left right al ingots , centre overflow

rinse repeat

[fierce cypress]

yea i understand that part - but what about the inputting of the ingots at the very start of the manifold

how do i merge them together correctly

[vapid gorge]

just smash them together. It'll balance out

[fierce cypress]

really?

[vapid gorge]

scouts honor 🙂

You do want that overflow to sink set up though cause before it all balances out you'll have excess happening.

A big sushifold factory though can have all it's overflow valves sent to 1 sink though since best case scenario you will get an avg of zero parts per min wasted

[fierce cypress]

what about the fact that Ai ingots are coming from a train - so it will be uneven flow

[vapid gorge]

hmm that presents a different issue let me think for a min

[fierce cypress]

i could make some sort of buffer + flowrate limiter?

[vapid gorge]

That could be a solution? Maybe your best one? Are you delivering the extact number (avg over time) ?

[fierce cypress]

theoretically - im training in 1755 ingots/min - split between 3 carriages (585/min each). of the 1755 incoming, 570/min is heading to this assembler array and the other 1185/min to other production

[vapid gorge]

Ok so yeah you probably want to develop a flow limiter - this is one of hte reasons I don't use sushi much. Generally it's simpler to NOT.

oh beanz.

Look, you can do it. And if I didn't have to go out in a bit I might even be interested in problem solving this with you

but it's definitely not even close to the simplest logistic method to approach this set up

Mostly it depends on you being actively interested in presenting this problem to yourself and solving it because yo uenjoy it

It's an interesting problem - if it's your jam? Do it

[fierce cypress]

i might as well give it a go

i just don't have too much experience with sushi - which is why im slightly hesitant

[vapid gorge]

trial and error. Maybe you'll fall in love with it

I wasn't going to do much with circles. Now look at me

Started with a refinery tower, how did it end up like this? How did it end up like this?

[alpine moat]

How much head does a fluid platform provide?

[vapid gorge]

depends how considerate you are with them

[fierce cypress]

well ill have a think and an experiment with it, thanks for the starting point - ill let you know once i have a hopefully solid idea

[vapid gorge]

Very little. you'll want to put it into buffers straight off and then have pumps after.

Also if you want to transport fluids by train AND want constant and full flow I recommend you research it properly. It's tricky to get max througput.

Easier to package , move package, unpackage

It can be done. I've spoken with a few experienced folks, but it's one of the trickier pipe things you can do and pipes are generally tricky

[alpine moat]

Cheers, ill give it a go and see how it goes. its nitrogen too, which seems to even act more weird than liquids

[vapid gorge]

oh dang dude. Don't.

gases are worse. I'm not 100% certain you can get full gas flow with trains

I've done it when the source gave me 600pm and I only needed 400 at destination and that's fine?

gas + buffers = mess

[fierce cypress]

@vapid gorge i think ive got a system that works - im testing it now

[vapid gorge]

I do not have the brain for that rn and I won't realllly be for another 40 hrs or so, heading out then work 🙂 But looking forward to see how it turns out

[fierce cypress]

grr not 570

could be the spin up time?

ill test again with that in mind

[vapid gorge]

what machines would be spinning up?

ah no I have to go, gl xD

[fierce cypress]

the belts getting to capacity

cya

ill have a startup of 200 sheets to see if the casings end up properly split

aaaand i forgot it removes from the right first

oops

take 2

well its a lot closer thats for sure

569/570

is that close enough?

ill do like a 5min test

5 min test set up

[vapid gorge]

as I'm passing by might want to make a QH thread to get the balancer people to weigh in on this. I know a number of people who've done things like that before but I don't know the details of it

[fierce cypress]

if the 5 min test doesn't give good results then i will, but if it performs then it should\™️ work

and it has - 2849/2850

im assuming the 1 is just because of rounding errors or something im not sure

[vapid gorge]

Maaayyyybbe? I'm not 100% that the testing you're doing is representative of the actual system though

[fierce cypress]

in what way?

[vapid gorge]

well you're going to be delivering things in different times and it'll get fed into a manifold, will it hold up when less than what you need is coming through? Like it might, I can't see the whole set up and I don't have time to think about it toooo deeply. One of the reasons I suggested a thread

[fierce cypress]

this system is purely a flowrate limiter - but it will be fed with a buffed feed - which should be filled with priority when a train arrives, refilling the buffer before it depletes completely - allowing a constant flow

[alpine moat]

I forgot that you can just have the bottles made offline and exchange empty for full, its a no brainer now lol.

[vapid gorge]

just just have the train bring back containers every time it delivers

And gas compresses nicely

[fierce cypress]

testing under an input of 585/min - or 1 carriage worth

[median heath]

Oh look, Valves for Belts 😉

[fierce cypress]

correct

i think the feedback loop is stuffing with this test though

[median heath]

Practical applications?

[vapid gorge]

trying to do a sushifold but train delivering items

[median heath]

I've done that.

[fierce cypress]

How'd you do it?

[median heath]

Just balancered or used basic belt mk restriction.

[fierce cypress]

thats what im doing

[median heath]

Guess my numbers didn't take anything as complex as what you're doing 🤷‍♂️

[vapid gorge]

Sev is definitely a better person than I to ask the nitty gritty of this

[fierce cypress]

im trying to do 570/min

and im doing it by - 480 - 60 - 30

[vapid gorge]

I've never done anything like this before but am unsure how you'd go about this w/o a lot of stuff heading towards a sink?

[fierce cypress]

there shouldn't be anything going to a sink here

its just a balancer

[vapid gorge]

But isn't the extra that you're sending back dependent on not goign over the throughput over whatever is getting unloaded by the train? and if that backs up doesn't it throw off the whole thing?

[median heath]

Guess I just missed the explanation on what this is doing?

[vapid gorge]

I'm stepping out - Ill let sev take over xD

[median heath]

I'm watching Netflix, just peeked over for a min.

lol

[vapid gorge]

🪢

[fierce cypress]

that was just to get different input amounts - not part of the system - was doing 780*0.75 to get 585/min - which is the amount i have in a carriage

[cinder silo]

I'm looking at the pic but thanks to more vodka I'm not getting it.

[fierce cypress]

but i think i inadvertently stuffed up the testing by adding the feedback belt

[vapid gorge]

Maybe More Vodka + would help?

[cinder silo]

Got some handy, but me being drunk doesn't help any advice I have to offer.

[vapid gorge]

Entertainment is helpful

[fierce cypress]

in theory it should all work fine

[cinder silo]

Oh well I'm going to sleep this off, I feel quire horrible, GN 👋

[vapid gorge]

Sleep tight 🙂 feel better

[vapid gorge]

Maybe flow the feed back belt to a temp sink so it acts like the items are flowing to dif production sites?

[fierce cypress]

yea i was just going to do it to a container

[vapid gorge]

How are you 'timing' the belts?

[fierce cypress]

putting the throughput of the input belt multiplied by how many minutes i want to test for

so for example a 780 input belt with a 1 minute test would just be 780 items

because thats how much will go through in a minute

and for the 5 minute i did 3900 items/min - 780*5

• a start up buffer

[vapid gorge]

Well if you send the feed back to a container and do a 10 minute test of items you should be good. Though you'll want to make sure you don't have any belt to belt connections since you're running at 780

[fierce cypress]

yea - no b2b

[vapid gorge]

heading otu later so I have more time for this nonsense xD

[fierce cypress]

[vapid gorge]

I just wasn't wanting to rush to make the train and the NEXT train is cancelled so 2hr gap

But yeah do another 10 minute test and if you're very close to the number of items shunted off you probably have a working system. Just always have a overflow sink at the end of the sushi

which is just good practice anyway

[fierce cypress]

overflow sink for the raw items/processed/both?

[vapid gorge]

these are the copper belts I was thinking of sushing with cat ingots but it was going to be too much of a pain

[vapid gorge]

both. Things get gunked up with sushi and not constant flow

If the output gets full then ALL the sushi is getting over flowed and if you have any other sushi depending on that sink to maintain things it'll go pear shaped

I guess the solution is to have MANY sinks but they are huge and ugly

[fierce cypress]

aight - well ive hopped of too since ive gtg somewhere too but ill do a 10min test, and hopefully the sushi should work

[vapid gorge]

gl and enjoy 😄

[fierce cypress]

you too 👌

[median heath]

I'm huge and ugly 😭

[vapid gorge]

If you ate tons of metal and petroleum garbage 24/7 I'm sure you would be yes

[frosty owl]

Unneeded if: train's round trip time < (stack-size)x(machines)/(throughput)

In other words, the machines themselves offer you a buffering of (stack size)x(machines) items with their own internal buffers. If a train unloads less than that each trip, no containers may be needed between the train and the production

Jab at @oblique hollow and @wicked tinsel in regards to why the machines buffer isn't pointless

[fierce cypress]

So it should run fine without anything?

[frosty owl]

Glad to see one more jumping onto the sushi train (obligatory pun in this context). Didn't think you'd try so soon ^^

[median heath]

Should.
The station itself + machines acts as enough of a buffer if you're supplying the correct amount.

[fierce cypress]

Well I’ll try running it without that first then, when I actually finish the factory

[frosty owl]

19 assemblers requiring 585/min?
Assuming I remember correctly when saying that alu ingots stack in 200s, you could buffer up to 3800 ingots, which allow for round trips of up to 3800/585 minutes (including unloading time) without having to add a buffer

[fierce cypress]

RTT should be relatively short - less than 5 mins

I could time it tomorrow

Probably more like 3 or 4

[frosty owl]

You should have leisure. The equation I mentioned evaluates as 6.49something

[vapid gorge]

I suppose you could have the ‘waste’ at the end merge with the other ingots coming off the train

[fierce cypress]

I was thinking about something like that

I could do 585 alu + 190 cu

And then just overflow the remaining 15 alu to the other system

I think that would work

[vapid gorge]

Hmm except you’d never get the full throughput of the copper

[fierce cypress]

Why not?

[vapid gorge]

Oh nm though it was going over

For some reason I thought you were running full 780 before

[fierce cypress]

yea that would be 755

So still possible

[vapid gorge]

Well, the train items would still be coming out at 780 unless you throttled it

Wouldn’t it @frosty owl ??

[fierce cypress]

Yea they would

[vapid gorge]

So I don’t get what they said about not needing the throttle system

[fierce cypress]

I guess it depends on the quantity?

If it’s a large enough amount to kill the other input or not

[vapid gorge]

Well coming out of the station it would take up all the throughput from the container right? So it couldn’t do more than zero extra items

[frosty owl]

If your machines can buffer the whole batch of items unloaded by the station, no buffering is needed

This depends on stack size, number of machines and throughput involved as we mentioned earlier

[vapid gorge]

Not sure what you mean by ‘if your machines can buffer the whole batch’

[frosty owl]

If a train has a throughput of 100/min and a round trip of 10 minutes it will deliver items in batches of 1k items every 10 minutes.
If you have more than 10 machines, you can buffer that many items inside them (stack size 100) and expect them to finish them right on time as the new batch of 1k items comes in

Counterexample: if the throughput was 500/min and round trip still 10 minutes, 5k items would come in per batch. 10 machines would buffer only 1k items, having the other 4k "pass by" if you sushied things and not allowing the inputs to back up

[oblique hollow]

i would still prefer a more responsive system over that

im willing to sacrifice overfed sushi for that.

Still have to make that test i promised

[frosty owl]

I think needing load-balancing is a decent tradeoff for responsiveness

[oblique hollow]

in reality we both probably want some 3rd unknown solution

[frosty owl]

I don't think I have anything more than barcodes and MK5 sushi splits in my wishlist

[frosty owl]

"Solution" to what?

[oblique hollow]

well, conflict of interest for feeding machines

[frosty owl]

Conflict of what interests?

[fickle plaza]

How much plastic you can make from 600 cubic meters of oil? Is it practical to use "Recycled Plastic" alt recipe?

[wind spade]

you can make 1800 plastic with correct recipes

[fickle plaza]

oof

Thanks a lot

[cinder silo]

I used the wrong recipes and get 2400 of each.

[wind spade]

out of 600 oil?

[cinder silo]

Alas no, that's why I said the wrong recipes, I took up just about all of the spire oil.

Future saves will be using residual + recycled, I got it wrong this time.

[frosty owl]

Ngl, blueprints make setting up diluted packaged fuel stations quite fun...

[raw flame]

@median heath how do i split 150 into 37.5 and 112.5?

[arctic willow]

either manifold it (if you want sev's answer) or balance it - 37.5 = 150 / 4 so split two ways then split one of those outputs two ways

[median heath]

Single splitter + wait.

[raw flame]

so 1 splitter

[median heath]

Aye

[raw flame]

is that a yes?

[cinder silo]

Seriously?

[raw flame]

what idk what aye means

[muted goblet]

Aye is a yes

[raw flame]

ok

[sand epoch]

Lol

[hybrid dune]

anyone know where world files are stored (path), I'm trying to duplicate a world

idk if this is the right channel lol

[sand epoch]

World files?

[vapid gorge]

You mean save games?

[hybrid dune]

like the saved files

[cinder silo]

Probably meaning saves like my monster build.

[hybrid dune]

yeah i meant that, sorry for my ignorance

[vapid gorge]

user local app files, factory game I believe

or something similar to that

a quick google will get you the precise wording

[sand epoch]

Or the pins in one of these channels..

[hybrid dune]

ok, I'm starting to thing that I could saved you some time just googling it, sorry again

[vapid gorge]

it happens xD

[abstract rapids]

which one is the best option

[wind spade]

there's no best, pick what you need the most

alt recipes don't have any best or worst one, it all depends on player's situation, resources and goals

and since you can get all of them anyway, there's never a "bad" pick

[still brook]

To be fair, some recipes are enablers while others aren’t, and some work well in combo with others.
But I’d still agree, take whatever one you’ll find useful at the moment

[abstract rapids]

I don't find any useful

[median heath]

1. Useless.
2. Non-screw way to make RIPs?? YES PLZ
3. Best way to make QW

[abstract rapids]

so n.2 then

[median heath]

If 2 is the most useful to you at this time, yes.

[abstract rapids]

idk

I need modular frames

[median heath]

Also note: It is the cheapest way to make RIPs, even if you combine it with Iron Wire to make it 100% from Iron it still costs less than Base.

[median heath]

Base recipe for Frames is the only one I use.

[abstract rapids]

frames are only 2 per minute..

[vapid gorge]

Just need more machiens if hte recipe has a slower output

[magic island]

What's wild is that even if you hypothetically had an infinite supply of already-produced Screws, it would still cost you less iron to just ignore the screws and make Iron Wire -> Stitched Iron Plate from scratch

[fierce cypress]

with everything else being default yes

otherwise with infinite screws bolted is better than adhered

[rough drift]

is there a way i can split 90 items a minute into two belts, one going at 50 a min and the other going 40 a min?

[median heath]

Single splitter will do this just fine.

90 / 2 = 45
45 > 40
The side requiring 40 will eventually fill and back up, after which it can take only 40. So then you have a perfect 40/50 split.

[rough drift]

hell yeah

cheers

[solar bolt]

refinery for fuel =
40 fuel/m
3 polyester/m
————————
3 fuel gens hooked to 1 refinery
4^3m of fuel are extra
————————————
have 12 fuel gen at 100% clock speed = 1500 MW of power
————————
have 4 refineries make fuel and 2 refineries make plastic with the polyester by-product
———————————————————————
180 MW used to power 6 refineries
240 MW used to power 6 oil extractors
40~ MW used to power pumps
————————-————————
Resources used:
270 motors
120 encased steel beam
360 cables
60 computers
120 heavy mod frames
600 rubber
600 QUICKWIRE
1 AI-LIMITER
600 copper sheet
//////////////////////////////
and more extras for setting up

This is a note ignore lol

[knotty ginkgo]

Input: 133,75 Output needed: 67,5 + 35 + 31,25

133,75
13,75 + 120
13,75 + 60 + 30 + 30
13,75 + 60 + 30 + 10 + 10 + 10
13,75 + 60 + 30 + 10 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 5
13,75 + 60 + 30 + 10 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 2,5 + 2,5
13,75 + (60 + 5 + 2,5) + (30 + 5) + 10 + 5 + 2, 5
(60 + 5 + 2,5) + (30 + 5) + (13,75 + 10 + 5 + 2, 5)
67,5 + 35 + 31,25

Lets hope all those splitters and machines fit in the blueprint to make those 5 frames/min

[wind spade]

Or just use a single splitter

[frosty owl]

I wouldn't make a blueprint for it unless you plan on using/verifying it later. Belts and balancing seems to work bad atm on EXP

[knotty ginkgo]

If I want to sync the arrival of resources, I would need to know the exact travel time of items. Does anyone know how many meters an item travels each second on a mk1 belt?

And how fast are splitters?

[wind spade]

splitters don't have speed

[frosty owl]

Splitters are instant.
To time belts you can get a rough estimation of their lenght using the dismantle tool and counting the parts needed to build them (eg: 10-plates belt will have longer travel time than a 9-plates belt)
There's imprecision due to how they don't take 1 item per meter, but I think it's worth it still

[cinder silo]

I've actually observed a tiny delay on splitters since U7, objects go in and don't immediately emerge.

[wind spade]

isn't that due to their internal inventory?

[cinder silo]

That is likely, I never noticed the slight delay before now, It's possible I merely missed it but now I've seen it, it kinda comes to the forefront.

[wind spade]

also what's the reason for "need to sync arrival of resources"?

[frosty owl]

Hard to distinguish that from simple visuals. You should check with the dismantle tool wether the item is in the splitter still or on the belt already, just not visible

[cinder silo]

That and it being in my save which is huge 🤦‍♂️

[knotty ginkgo]

I want that the last assembler which builds the frames get it's first screws and plates at the same time. So when it will finish the first production circle it will be empty again

[wind spade]

sounds like needless complication. Just fill both manifolds and then enable the buildings

[frosty owl]

Sounds like needles information

[knotty ginkgo]

Manifolds are easy mode, beat the game with it a few times and it grow old

And with blueprints it's actually possible to scale up a perfect factory

[frosty owl]

*it's actually not too tedious

Still impossible for people with poor specs

[vapid gorge]

You could scale up a 'perfect' factory before.

[frosty owl]

Blueprints make it much, much less tedius, on different levels
Eg: imagine the difference between coming up with a brilliant design and having to repeat it endlessly
And coming up with a brilliant design, building it perfect once and knowing you can repeat that at leisure as long as you blueprint ed well enough (easy to tile and use or whatnot)
There's huge differences in payoff and perceived "wasted effort"

[cinder silo]

I'll be able to try out my slender miner towers with the current project 😄

[prime orchid]

if i want to run nuclear and not coal, what's max TPR/min assuming only underclocking to balance and not to minimize power draw?

[cinder silo]

Umm, not to appear completely dense and owning a nuclear installation with 100 reactors, but what is a TNR?

[prime orchid]

TPR* sry

[cinder silo]

I'm just as clued in now as I was a minute ago 😦

[cinder silo]

Ooh, lol I thought you was on about power in/out of the installation itself.

My rocket production out of my former spaghetti factory was only done by two manufacturers, my grid is so overbuilt it never bumped so I never ran the power numbers.

[prime orchid]

i want to do a max tpr build but i also don't want to make a million coal generators. i want run entirely nuclear which uses bauxite and nitric and i'm not quite sure how much to shoot for before fine tuning

[cinder silo]

Nuclear won't have any issues staying ahead, a 50 reactor build gets you 125,000Mw without clocks, there is no way you're going to overrun that focusing on max rockets, you'll short it materials wise and system stability wise first.

The manufacturers themselves only use 55Mw

[prime orchid]

ya the materials is what i'm focused on but i also don't want to run out of power. i'm working on a 36 reactor build right now and i know it won't be enough power. just having fun building it for now since it's my first.

[cinder silo]

It'd be worth building a mass of power stores in case something does overrun, ideally the same output from the stores as your grid, when you get the warning the stores are draining you can turn some stuff off and go back to building power.

Those little copper tops are brilliant at preventing outright grid crashes.

For 36 nukes for example, having a farm with like 900 stores should be , well **overkill **in fact but you won't take crashes.

[prime orchid]

thing is, i want to steal as minimal resources from tpr build as possible to cover the nuclear power needed to run everything. i have no clue how much of each to shoot for. i'm thinking it's probably somewhere around 100GW and and something like 90 tpr/min?

[cinder silo]

Like I said though I never run the numbers, https://u6.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=MeS0JZrp9fKzoREb7YbY this is my plan for rebuilding for the sake of it, a minimal chain of space elevator parts, tools itself should give you the power numbers when you plug in your requirements, @wind spade has done a fantastic job with this.

[prime orchid]

i have run into a problem with that calculator though

[wind spade]

what kind of problem?

[prime orchid]

i can't add any nuclear stuff to it

[cinder silo]

You might be looking at it backwards, say you want those 90 rockets, you'll get power requirements off it, then you can scale your power accordingly. one sec got a crash report to pour over.

[prime orchid]

it would make it so much easier if i could just play around with the numbers to find a balance but i can't get it to calculate anything for nuclear

[frosty owl]

First run a maximized TPR plan. See how many GW it needs.
Nuclear produces up to ~1.2TW of power using 50.4 UFRs/min and maximized PFRs from the Waste. If your plan needs less power than that, tell the planner to make x UFRs/min, add an appropriate number of PFRs and then maximize TPR production with the remaining resources

[frosty owl]

You need to add an appropriate Waste/min input, which is dependent on how many UFRs/min you're consuming for power

[prime orchid]

huhhhhhhhhh?

[frosty owl]

Uranium Waste needs to be added as an Input for the planner to be able to give you a production plan for Plutonium Fuel Rodsù

How much Uranium Waste/min you make is dependent on how many Uranium Fuel Rods/min you consume for power

[prime orchid]

nuclear waste is an item like anything else. why wouldn't it just give me the layout for the whole thing? it knows how much waste it will require and thus how much to make and it knows how to make it soooo i'm confused why it doesn't work

it's not on the list

[frosty owl]

The planner doesn't account for power generation (and Waste is a byproduct of that)

[prime orchid]

it doesn't need to

it just needs to calculate it as a crafted item like everything else. i will look at the power and balance the numbers

(even though i'm sure it could do that automatically as well no?)

[oblique hollow]

because greeny automated it all and nuclear waste has no normal recipe

and he didnt want to make one special exception case for waste

[frosty owl]

Eg: there is no function like "how many fuel gens I need to produce X MW and how would the related fuel production look"
You need to decide a MW amount, check on wiki how many generators that takes and request the planner how to make the amount of fuel those generators would consume

[prime orchid]

waste does have recipes just like everything else?

[bronze barn]

And if it's waste input the waste byproduct as an input in the input mode

Waste doesn't have recipes

[oblique hollow]

i mean the nuclear reactor has no waste recipe

[bronze barn]

There are recipes to get rid of waste

[oblique hollow]

it is not a normal recipe like everything else

[prime orchid]

how is it not lol

[oblique hollow]

because you can mod the game and look at the files and see that there is no waste recipe

[prime orchid]

but we know the recipe

[frosty owl]

The planner doesn't account for power generation
It DOES NOT have any recipe related to power.
No Coal + Water -> MW, no Fuel -> MW, no UFR -> MW, no MW -> Uranium Waste; all these steps must be done by you.

[oblique hollow]

yes, but greeny didnt type everything in by hand

he just uploads a game file and extracts from there

and he doesnt want to make a special exception

@wind spade care to explain the nuclear waste situation in Satis Tools calc again?

[bronze barn]

Did you want 100 plants?

plot in to create 20

And input the waste per min x 100 in the input for uranium waste

[prime orchid]

oh well it would be AMAZING if it could just get manually put into the calculator

[bronze barn]

you can

[cinder silo]

For my plutonium chain I had to put 1050 waste as an input.

[wind spade]

nucelar waste can't be "produced" by any recipe, so the tools don't know how to get it (when you need it). It needs to be inputted manually in "input" fields

[bronze barn]

Just put in the waste there instead of my rubber

[frosty owl]

(Try re-reading my prior messages about how to make a production plan based on your needs, please)

[bronze barn]

And you can get the recipes that require them

You cannot enter it as a production target, cause it has no recipe. But you can use the fuel rods from the step INTO plants

[wind spade]

power production is not a recipe

[bronze barn]

And since you know how many plants you want, you can enter how many you need

[prime orchid]

i'm not trying to select power in the production list lol. maybe it's not treated like a normal recipe in the game files but it can easily be treated like one in a calculator

[oblique hollow]

except greeny pulls recipes automatically

and there is no waste recipe

[wind spade]

it can't. It would show everywhere as a recipe (codex, recipe selection), etc.

[prime orchid]

why is that bad?

[bronze barn]

It would be wrong

[prime orchid]

how

[bronze barn]

Cause it's not a recipe

[wind spade]

it doesn't have the properties of recipes (crafting time, etc.), machine (nuclear plant) doesn't have properties of machines (crafting speed, power used), I'd have to have exceptions everywhere in the code

overclocking works completely differently

[prime orchid]

not in u7 right?

[oblique hollow]

Power consumption follows a power function

even in U7

[wind spade]

even in u7

see my reply on github

First, the data is processed automatically from game files, so any manual additions would either have to be hardcoded (which I'm not a big fan of) or re-added every time I run the script to process the data. Also, nuclear power plant doesn't have the parameters required to be able to calculate recipe production (e.g. "craftingSpeed"). It also doesn't use any power to run, which would break the building/overview displays. It would also display as a recipe in codex and recipe picker (which is technically incorrect). Not to mention that the formula for calculating overclock is different than the formula for production buildings.

All of that would have to be taken into account in code, which would result in multiple days of work. That's just not worth. Adding power properly is a much better option in this case, however as I said, it's not a big priority right now due to other things that I'm working on right now. It will come eventually though.

https://github.com/greeny/SatisfactoryTools/issues/100#issuecomment-1027687525

[frosty owl]

Imagine a moment: you request a plan to make 20 Iron Plates/min. The planner would tell you to make a Miner (20 MW), a Smelter (4 MW) a Constructor (5 MW) to produce the output... but including power into this (making the planner consider the parts in parenthesis) would mean the planner now has to choose a power source, plan it so it produces more power than it requires and the demand of the 20 Plates/min and then add the resource usage for that power production too.
The resulting production plan, even in such an extremely simple example (no underclocking at all!) would be very confusing

[wind spade]

simplest answer to "why is that bad" is "I don't want to show wrong information"

[prime orchid]

okay hang on guys there's so much to respond to lol

[frosty owl]

Greeny's answer is the most important one anyway.
I'm just trying to make an example to help visualizing how it could look like in the planner if power were to be included

[wind spade]

(and btw it's not "I don't want to implement power/waste", it's "I want to implement it properly". I do plan to implement power [it's partially on beta already], but it's a lot of work and I'm also currently in a complete rewrite phase 🙂 )

[oblique notch]

Wait. (catching up) it doesnt?

[oblique hollow]

it does not, its directly a property of the reactor

[wind spade]

only way to "produce" waste is to burn fuel rods in reactor. It's not a "recipe", it's power generation method with byproduct

[frosty owl]

Proper coding: 100

[oblique notch]

Sorry greeny, McGalleon, i was asking from the modding mindset - guess it surprised me that it doesnt have a Desc_[RecipeName] its part of Build_GeneratorNuclear

[wind spade]

it doesn't. The GeneratorNuclear has fuels param which specifies possible fuel + water + byproduct (if any)

(or something similar, not 100% sure regarding game blueprints, I just read what is in docs.json, which is basically exported blueprint data)

[oblique hollow]

its a direct property of the Build_GeneratorNuclear, just like water consumption factor

[wind spade]

typing intensifies

[oblique notch]

mmm i see. AND its split also onto Desc_NuclearFuelRod as that has the property of Energy Value to determine how long it can burn

[wind spade]

indeed, there's no burn time technically

(and this was even more important back in the day when gens didn't run at full power if they didn't have to)

[oblique notch]

just a calculated result based on Power Production from the Generator and Energy Value from the fuel. Which makes sense, that lets you have a fuel work in multiple entities at different rates

[prime orchid]

i guess i just don't understand why if the calculator has a list of recipes and all the requirements for said recipe, why you can't just paste a recipe/requirements for waste. it has the same principle. input <amount> of <items> into <machine> and output <item> after <time>

[oblique notch]

that too

[oblique notch]

First, the data is processed automatically from game files,

[oblique hollow]

it would need a modified data processing stream

for this one funny exception

[oblique notch]

thats the reason - because he automatically generates the data, what youre asking for has to be hardcoded and is prone to being forgotten. We as developers always strive to avoid hardcoding whenever we can because its alway sprone to be forgotten

[wind spade]

• because the recipes are automatically generated from game files
• even if I added it manually to the processing script, it would still break in several cases (as stated above) since it's not a recipe and doesn't have properties that recipe needs

[cinder silo]

Working out the waste is no biggie in your case 10x36 from your planned reactor house.

That'll be the waste per minute.

[wind spade]

to be exactly clear, I'll be missing this info:

Nuclear Power Plant

• power consumption
• power consumption exponent
• manufacturing speed

[prime orchid]

obviously, but that's not what the calculator is used for. it's used for generating layouts and selecting optimal alt recipes etc. if i manually input waste then nothing that goes into producin the waste is considered in the layout or max resource limit etc

[wind spade]

the point is still the same. I can add it easily. It would just break most of the website (by break I mean either completely not working or displaying wrong data depending on which page you're on - neither of which I want to do).

[cinder silo]

Hmm, trivial calculation on waste output at our end or demanding that Greeny change tools to have a recipe for waste production which is one of several exceptions, just do the math and add the waste manually.

[prime orchid]

maybe i will learn to code and manually do it myself hehehehe

[wind spade]

and I could fix all the issues caused by the addition of the recipe, but that would be very long process and basically take several days of work to get it right

[cinder silo]

Nobody is stopping you, Greeny has the code on github so knock yourself out.

[prime orchid]

yeah i saw that's cool

[wind spade]

(maybe the reason why nobody did this yet is because it's just not viable as we're telling you 😛 )

[oblique notch]

can use my code as a base if you want. But if youve never worked in advanced binary tree creation in python it might be all dead summarian to you: https://github.com/lynkfox/FicsitEfficiency

it also not a Production Planner like greenies, and it does hardcode recipes in the form of JSON files, but that means I have to be constantly keeping them up to date as things change (im to lazy to do a game file scan blah no i just wanted it fast and dirty and someone else already did the work)

[wind spade]

you could just use to generate it from game files 😛

[oblique notch]

loool

[wind spade]

(or use 's data file directly)

[oblique notch]

and mine also doesn't do all the other things greenies does like take into account inputs, find the best recipes for you, ect. Mine was more for a curiosities sake of being able to directly compare multiple production chains on several factors that I wanted to take into account... something that greenies obviosuly does automatically internally to provide the "best" recipes for you

[prime orchid]

what i love about satisfactorytools unlike other calculators is the automatic recipe selection. it also doesn't freak out about production loops such as the recycled plastic <--> recycled rubber

[oblique notch]

and let me tell you, from building a tool that can build practically every production chain from top to bottom, that loop is a PAIN in the ass to deal with

[prime orchid]

yeah i bet

[wind spade]

actually it wasn't really any harder than rest of the tool

[prime orchid]

do tell

[wind spade]

but I guess that's because I have different approach to how the "tree" is produced

I don't really do standard trees, I just use linear optimiser to find the best solution and build the tree after the solution is created

[oblique notch]

Yeah, now im curious. The weighted graph that I used wanted to choke hard on that, until I eventually (since mine doesnt have to be as robust as yours) just said 'if the recipe you are about to use is already in in your path back to root, skip it"

[prime orchid]

interesting

[wind spade]

don't get me wrong, it was a pain to implement it correctly, but once I did it, I got loops and everything like that basically for free

though if you're interested in this more, we should probably move it into a thread

[prime orchid]

what is the weighted graph used for if not recipe optimization?

[oblique hollow]

if you want you can pick apart my mod (which is public since last month or so) and pick apart all the funny loops inside that one

[oblique notch]

oh, right, your tree though is only the single path for each item.

[wind spade]

wdym by that?

[oblique notch]

:p Your initial recipes you gave me a while back already helped with that

[oblique hollow]

those werent even the most complex

i have triple loops

[oblique notch]

your final tree is just the final set of production paths for each item needed, right? Basically what you are about to display on the screen for the user?

[oblique hollow]

Lynx basically gives you all routes

[wind spade]

ah I see

[oblique hollow]

oops wrong reply, classic discord moment

[wind spade]

given that technically there's infinite routes, I'm quite curious how you do it lol

[oblique notch]

Yeah, my initial tree is the entire produciton tree, with the first layer of children nodes being every single alternate recipe to get that item, then each node under that has paired children nodes for each item required, which turns back to each recipe for those items... ect