🐺┃primalist

[limpid veldt]

ah yeah

so maybe it's worth

then

we can do the same to multismite too right?

[mossy coral]

multismite?

[limpid veldt]

multistrike smite

[mossy coral]

Yeah

If it's void

[limpid veldt]

but that's pretty close for multi strike smite tbh

because we got tons of flat spell dmg there already due to vitality stacking

[dense cove]

Also if you don't need specific pieces for armor and helmet it's possible to insert Gaspar's set in there for 15% more void damage against bosses.

[mossy coral]

Yeah there's even that

[limpid veldt]

hmm

maybe I need to reconsider the multi smite build again

@mossy coral hmm should we switch to sentinel channel?

[near leaf]

As long as you aren't talking about rogue or Acolyte you are fine

[high stratus]

@patent dock have you tried the T8 affix? Seems like it would be almost double damage for your tempest strike build compared to the T7 which is a pretty good rate for a primordial.

[pallid valley]

Are there any solid builds that use Maelstrom heavily? decent leveling preferred, but I just kinda like Maelstrom 😮

[raven sluice]

If someone manage to figure Tsunami out

Maelstrom was OK to lvl my first char this season with. Idk if it can remotely compare to the meta lvling builds, but I think you're less likely to be crit in campaign so you can scale both Maelstrom and Tsunami, just using cold dmg and spell dmg

It's kinda comfy at least

Unless someone has a bonkers trigger for maelstrom stacks that actually works, my bet would be simply focus cast speed and flat mana cost reduction for Tsunami once you get to endgame

[pallid valley]

how stupid is it to aim for full time swarmblade form with the nonsense that has going? I remember that used to kinda work

[raven sluice]

No idea, I only played swarmblade like 5 minutes

[near leaf]

Perma form is pretty easy to achieve

On every form

What's your plan?

[pallid valley]

well I'm looking at it because I wanna do something with maelstrom and it can stack maelstrom as it blitzes about, as well as throwing out some other spells that work well with it

but I haven't played primalist since season 2 so I'm relearning things

it looks like I wanna lean heavily into cold conversion for things

[near leaf]

Rage on Crit inside Swarmblade form (behind 10%'flat crit) + in the druid passive tree

[pallid valley]

looks like that'd be maelstrom, serpent strike, swarmblade, probably gathering storm to upgrade all the lightning strikes/convert to cold

maybe storm crows. too bad there's no way to make tornados cold

does Rending Vortex affect storm bolts, or just the Gathering Storm basic attack?

[raven sluice]

All of GS afaik, so including stormbolts whether from storm stacks or tornado etc. But cold swarmblade is usually focusing on cold dot with a lot of frostbite iirc

So not crit since dots can't crit

Though you could prolly crit cap stormbolts if you had access to rending vortex and warcry anyway. Just doesn't synergise with DoT

[near leaf]

All Storm Bolts from any sources

[raven sluice]

Ah, swarmblade is crit focused. I forgot

So the stormbolts are prolly good for rage then

[pallid valley]

peruses trees so cold converted birds would probably be a good 5th then since they will be able to buff me and add more storm stacks

[raven sluice]

Hmm. I need to probably fix an inheritance of the erased, if there's any good mods that aren't phys, dot, or pen. Then also get a ton of cast speed

[pallid valley]

is there any way to search uniques for things that affect primalist spells?

[raven sluice]

Not that I know of, maybe though

I just realised. With 20 thornshields my summoned bear doesn't actually even deal double dmg per bleed. It's just bleed chance that is like tripled

[high stratus]

maelstrom stormbolts are really not worth the skill points if you're trying to make maelstrom do something useful

They're marginally useful if you're just using maelstrom for haste, frenzy, GS crit etc

it's only 1 bolt/s in single target and 1 bolt/s barely moves the needle

[pallid valley]

branch of hallows looks potentially useful

[high stratus]

only -3 mana cost is tough

maelstrom is expensive to spam

[pallid valley]

hm, instead of storm crows I could spec into tornado for its buffing and also firing storm bolts aspect

[high stratus]

what are you trying to do with this build?

because casting tornado to trigger storm bolts is a whole build by itself

it's quite a good build if you can work out how to afford the mana cost

[pallid valley]

have fun with maelstrom, really.

and obviously, avoid going to sleep

[high stratus]

okay well you really just want to cast as many stacks of maelstrom as you can manage

that's how Tsunami's big scalar works

anything that takes time to do and doesn't cause more maelstroms to happen is probably not worth doing

[raven sluice]

I wonder if maelstrom can dual wield mad ladle and cleaver with bugged set bonus for 78% cast speed legendary affix on ladle

Maybe with foot of the mountain?

But maelstrom doesn't scale with strength unless werebear

I'm thinking I should use ladle to get like 150% cast speed and try to kill uberoth on thornburst bear

[trim folio]

If you have all CDR gear possible, you can easily go up to 30 maelstrom stack as all time with swarmblade.

[trim folio]

With ideal gear, it's possible to fish for 250 added spell damage. Tsunami should have +1800% more damage from 300% damage of 300, widescreen, every second. Sounds pretty nasty

[mossy wave]

hey furry Petgang, has anyone of you experience with Julras Gloves, 20% Health lost/s t7 affix and Raptors with Cornered node? Does this work? do they survive it with ward?

[trim folio]

Iirc, it doesn't work with Julra (doesn't apply at all). Idk if they fixed it

[mossy wave]

ok, sad :/ Thank you!

[high stratus]

minions just can't get a lot of stats including the missing health/ward stuff

even if they could 20% of missing health gained as ward is not enough

[patent dock]

You know what... I totally forgot that was an option

That would for sure bring the build to new levels of silliness

[raven sluice]

Hmm. Even with foot of the mountain + ladle, maelstrom still costs 8 mana

You can bring that down to 5 with efficiency. Nice if you're not forced into apathy LL

But str is an odd stat to get a lot of on shaman. You could prolly sustain 40+ or more, if you survived standing still so much. But it's a weird concept

I guess you cast it through scorpion, then it seems better

[neon steppe]

I did that build, it worked out well with scorpion and the primordial chest

Got up to like 20m crits with maelstrom on target dummy

Mana regen was definitely annoying tho

[raven sluice]

yeah, mana is gonna be a problem on beastmaster, even more than on shaman

[limpid veldt]

hmm

swipe is not sufficient?

for mana

I wonder if tsunami scopion is better than eq scopion

[raven sluice]

every second spent swiping is a second youre not casting several maelstroms with like 200% increased cast speed from a legendary ladle, dual wield bonus, and giga str

[limpid veldt]

wait

so that build is to cast as many maelstrom as possible?

[raven sluice]

yeah, it's the topic I was writing about at least

[limpid veldt]

hmm

then it's difficult

[raven sluice]

You can bring mana cost down to 5. Base of 17 minus ladle to 14, minus foot of the mountain to 8. Then 60% mana efficiency in maelstrom specialisation. But ladle gives giga cast speed, especially if you use bugged weaver ring+ammy (or legends and entwined + either) and get 50% increased effect of legendary affixes on ladle

[limpid veldt]

5 is still many

[raven sluice]

when you cast 4+ per second, definitely

[limpid veldt]

3 is reasonable

[raven sluice]

on a beastmaster

shaman could probably sustain 4 per second, but that sounds like a concept that just wont work

[limpid veldt]

hmm

[raven sluice]

shaman is squishier, frontline, doesnt scale with str

[limpid veldt]

it's better than lightning eq scop right?

since we get a 75% more dmg node

[raven sluice]

So far, I havent seen anyone make tsunami seem to really really work (as in being worth it). It's interesting, and it's playable, but you need to double dip on maelstroms per second to an extent idk if anyone did comfortably and wrote about.

[limpid veldt]

ah ok

[raven sluice]

beastmaster scorpion is kinda sick though: 75% more dmg on passive tree, 85% more dmg on passive tree, scale flat dmg with str, scale cast speed with str (through cleaver and ladle), scale increased dmg with str (cuz scorpion is the dmg), beastmaster has aspect of the lynx, scorp has +9% base crit in tree, 40% more cold dmg in tree

[neon steppe]

I tried the dive swarmblade too, potion for cd to basically 0 and potion health to ward, works really well for clear not so great single target

[raven sluice]

yeah, I saw that, looked really nice in 300c

[neon steppe]

I think werebear is prob best gonna make that next

Str stack x2 palarus

Cdr warcry

Get x2 warcry every 2.5 seconds and swipe in between

[raven sluice]

8 maelstroms per 2.5 seconds sounds decent, especially if youre not locked down

That's like, 32*0.98 maelstroms, so 31-32. Not as much as you can get with cast speed, but probably way better playstyle and werebears tend to make OP casters from what people write here

[mossy coral]

I still think the 2 warcries for 1 tsunami is a little much

[raven sluice]

how did you get omnis again? killed like 15 shades without one

and did a confluence of oblivion

oh, it's exponential based on distance from center

and apparently 300c+

fair enough

oh, 200c+, scaling up from there

so it scales exponentially with distance from center, linearly with corruption above 200, and caps at 15%

[glad hinge]

Afaik its 87% drop rate from confluence and u need one timeline at 400c, distance doesnt matter

[raven sluice]

(distance)^2 * (corruption - 200) * 0.01875% seems to be base drop rate anyway, according to tunklabs

[glad hinge]

Yeah confluence is not affected by distance, a lot of people abusing it this patch

[raven sluice]

I heard from a youtuber yup

binaqc or something

I guess my current build can easily scale some extra corruption over 300c

didnt expect bleed summon bear to be this strong

[limpid veldt]

hmm

better than other bleed?

tried bleed squirrel

[raven sluice]

I dont remember how good saber was

didnt give squirrel a serious try cuz clear was so bad

[limpid veldt]

decent but not sure if it is better than other bleed builds

[limpid veldt]

same

good st but very bad clear

so how can bleed bear clear?

[raven sluice]

my bear just stunlocked a 365c riftbeast to death, despite being bleed

[limpid veldt]

how about clear?

[raven sluice]

it has thornburst, earthquake, swipe, it's not the fastest but got coverage

[limpid veldt]

oh

I did not know thornburst exists

I wonder why rogue is the only physical class that does not have any bleed affixes for equipments

at least BM has some bleed duration and aspect of the boar

[raven sluice]

I thought rogue had some bleed, but seems to me rogue has way more than it deserves atm?

[limpid veldt]

but most are just bleed chance

it has no pen with bleed and bleed duration

ti apply on falcon

at least I'm not aware of any rogue good bleed builds

[raven sluice]

I'm at 655 corruption, and it doesnt quite feel hard yet lul

bleed bear is popping off

[tranquil lintel]

which primalist builds have you all had the most fun playing this season? I've got tonnes of gear stashed and im fed up with swipe>aftershocks gameplay at this point

[raven sluice]

I only did selfcast LL tsunami, selfcast LL avalanche, selfcast LL hybrid, none of those really good. Then zoo for campaign on this char. Then bleed bear. Bleed bear is very nice though

Bleed summoned bear that is

But the build is far from finished

[tranquil lintel]

I have a second character that was geared for bleed squirrels that I could try swapping to bear

have you made a planner?

[raven sluice]

Nope, just checking firsthand what I seem to need

[near leaf]

Shatter Totem Werebear

[raven sluice]

https://www.lastepochtools.com/profile/Vinchova/character/VinchThornburst

This, but it needs vessel of strife, made ladle with t7 cast speed, better idols, avalanche boulder on spell cast idol, aspect of the viper, more LP

[near leaf]

I tried a bit tsunami Werebear it has smth

[somber phoenix]

has nayone tried the new rayehs embrace for fire crows?

[limpid veldt]

abyssmal movement speed

[patent dock]

Vinebear and storm totem popper

[sly bobcat]

primal cadence upheaval was fun for a while. bad at bossing though

[limpid veldt]

wait what is popper?

[patent dock]

This, it's a silly build I don't think it's your kind of thing

[near leaf]

That's.... Bright

[tranquil lintel]

are you doing something with tempest strike and boardman plank there?

[patent dock]

Yep

[near leaf]

Shame it's only 120% ade

[patent dock]

Now we on this

[near leaf]

Oo

[tranquil lintel]

hahah this is based

[near leaf]

How many Totem do you want?
Yes

[patent dock]

Yeah, it would be so great if it was higher... we just gotta convince EHG to buff elemental nova so we can catch some stray buffs

[near leaf]

Or give it a new skill

Could be casting 1 storm bolt ....

[high stratus]

20m crits on dummy is what 2.2-2.4m on anything in lvl 100 areas? still seems a bit lacking for such a min-maxed build.

[patent dock]

I would accept that too, but EHG giving primalist buffs, especially shaman?

[high stratus]

bleed falconer has been lurking on the bottom of the non-archived maxroll tierlist builds since at least 1.2

[high stratus]

Spriggan form totems has such smooth gameplay, it's not the most exciting I guess but very comfy

[trim folio]

You know how it goes, it's going to be capped at 2 per second.

[mossy coral]

3 per 2 seconds for primalist

[high stratus]

the fun thing about that storm totem pop nonsense is that it's probably not even as good as just having thunder totem go ham with storm bolts but it does look crazy fun

[limpid veldt]

that's mean is isn't even good

I mean it's even behind upheaval and upheaval is bad according to many people's opinion here

[high stratus]

imagine if you could convert tempest strike so that the lightning tempest was applying some damaging ailment, you'd apply so damn many

with f all scaling ofc because it's tempest strike

[high stratus]

did you have any joy using upheaval on UA?

[limpid veldt]

did not use it

tried shatter totem instead

since I realized I can get way way more spell dmg in bear form

[high stratus]

yeah shatter totem is really nice

you're immune to damage a lot on that build too right

[patent dock]

Yeah, I think for single target just letting thunder totem do its thing is still better DPS than attacking with tempest strike, even after swapping to T8 Boardman

[limpid veldt]

but problem is abyssmal movement speed

[patent dock]

plus it's just hugely nice being able to walk around freely

[high stratus]

and you can't use GS with boardman either can you?

given what you found about enrage applying to all minions I was wondering which minions would be best to abuse that

[patent dock]

Nah, it only procs off TS hits

[hidden frigate]

Is it from corupeted set item ?

[high stratus]

primordial T8 set affix

[limpid veldt]

for dmg it's very nice

[patent dock]

No, you have to craft it with havocs and evolution runes

[limpid veldt]

400% scaling

and tons of flat spell dmg

[high stratus]

it reminds me of apoc zombies but much better qol in exchange for considerably less damage

[limpid veldt]

and I did not even use the bugged weaver set ring

[limpid veldt]

its theme is similar to sacrifice for me

[high stratus]

sacrifice is not build around a cooldown limited setup combo you're just feeding more and more skeletons into the blender

[limpid veldt]

I mean sacrificing a minion to do player-based dmg

well whatever

the thing is

should I use the weaver set ring?

because Idk if it will be fixed

that weaver set ring could give me insane dmg

especially since I'm dual wielding

[high stratus]

it'll get fixed if it gets known and used broadly including widely shared videos of uberroth going down stupidly fast on mediocre gear.

If it's just used by a few people here and there then it'll still be around in 2.0

[limpid veldt]

yeah

totally I don't see any one shot builds with that rings yet

only fire shadow rend and totem shatter use it

do you think it will be like anomaly?

instead of applying aliments faster it pops aliments instantly

which is why time rot builds are so insane now

and it has existed since 1.2

without any fix

[limpid veldt]

also for this

even for 4 lp 7 gear I don't think it will be good

it just lacks bleed duration and bleed pen

[high stratus]

I think rogue does have a few ailment affixes which are weapon type specific iirc

i've seen them on item filters/when doing my own filters

[raven sluice]

Yeah, rogue got some weapon type stuff. And/or sentinel

For ailments

Iirc

[high stratus]

I think sentinel has a decent bleed duration affix

[limpid veldt]

but idk

falcon cannot inherit bleed duration and bleed pen

[high stratus]

probably not, maybe it's an inside joke and just barely good enough not to get archived

[raven sluice]

There should be a unique that made primalist "borrow" falcons

Jk

[high stratus]

conversion storm crows become falcons

[raven sluice]

Ye

[limpid veldt]

I just want the lethal spear to apply on scopions

their bossing dmg is a joke

[raven sluice]

And it allows you to have both specialisation trees

With 7 falcons

[high stratus]

just make primalist's falcons be created as though they had a pretty complete skill tree

[raven sluice]

True, all the nodes go

I actually think I'm gonna get my first uberoth on bleed summon bear

170% cast speed is a lot of thornshields. If you get 30 thornshields (I would expect you can get like 45+), then that is 1800% bleed chance? Then say 4k % inc dmg. On the strongest primalist minion chassis

Except maybe storm totem chassis

[limpid veldt]

huh I don't understand the interaction

why cast speed?

isn't your bear the one doing dmg?

[raven sluice]

Cuz thornshield should scale with cast speed? And you cast it on the bear

I hope it scales with cast speed

[high stratus]

thorn shield gives the bear bleed chance per stack

[raven sluice]

Yup

[limpid veldt]

oh

[raven sluice]

Like 60% bleed chance, 60% phys dmg

[limpid veldt]

that's insane scaling

[raven sluice]

Ye

[raven sluice]

And bear has earthquake and giga version of swipe on like 0.9s CD

[limpid veldt]

I might try that

primalist has good minion bleed affix

[high stratus]

is it actually per stack? that wording is ambiguous

[limpid veldt]

and bear has giga dps

[raven sluice]

I think so, not sure

Dmg definitely seems to multiply if I thornshield and evade properly

[high stratus]

Barbed Thicket 0/4
You now have a chance to also cast Thorn Shield on the nearest Vine when you cast Thorn Shield. Other allies with Thorn Shield deal global increased physical damage and have a chance to cause enemies to bleed.
Chance To Cast Thorn Shield On Nearest Vine: +25% per point
Increased Physical Damage With Shield: 15% per point
Bleed Chance With Shield: +15% per point

[neon steppe]

Yea it’s not good lol, tsunami needs scaling itself and idk what genius thought 5 stacks instead of 4 to trigger was a good idea. Also maelstrom tree layout kinda sucks

[limpid veldt]

ask the dev?

[raven sluice]

I'll ask uberoth

[high stratus]

can you cast thorn shield on another player in multiplayer?

[raven sluice]

Either way, I get like 300 bleeds on occasion. I think it probably stacks

[high stratus]

because 60% global inc phys per stack could almost make vortex pennant good lol

[limpid veldt]

wait

[raven sluice]

Summon bear with 300 bleeds is a scary prospect

[limpid veldt]

no "this effect can stack" here

[patent dock]

Yes

[raven sluice]

Kudos to either @patent dock or @near leaf for recommending this last season btw. I just got sidetracked cuz ADD+OCD personality

[high stratus]

that's true but you know how the precise wording and spaghetti code can be misleading

[limpid veldt]

hmm

[high stratus]

I'm wondering about using that thornshield tech for shaman avalanche scorpion

[patent dock]

Barbed thicket is what makes bleed bear pop off so early on, all you need is to unlock bear and spriggan form and you're set to empowered basically

[near leaf]

What did I recommand ?

[limpid veldt]

minion cooldown is prefix right?

[high stratus]

does a lot of hits, decent generic dot scaling. Could easily have avalanche, upheaval and EQ as phys.

Ah u need to be BM to give scorp aspect of the boar nvm

[raven sluice]

Bleed bear?

[limpid veldt]

and boar effect is suffix

[patent dock]

I might have rec'd that, that was my starter last season

[raven sluice]

It seems very very good anyway

[patent dock]

Yeah, and the idol buffs make it even better now

[raven sluice]

Boar is insane yeah

I think I need a reverberating ornate, for some reason that mod isnt on omen idols

[limpid veldt]

right now I wonder

should I go for nest relic

60% increased idol effect

that basically makes you immortal

with boar

[high stratus]

sounds like a good plan to me

[raven sluice]

I like legends entwined, let's you use weaver set on ring alone. Can reforge a t7 then have like 40% armour vs DoT. Add cleaver and vessel of strife and mad ladle and you got giga cast speed, and thorn shield costs no mana

Plus giga ward

But might be better on vessel nest* still

Can still do that

[limpid veldt]

hmm I would go for boar

[raven sluice]

Just reforge ammy

[limpid veldt]

and set gloves

[high stratus]

I don't like bear much though, what's the second best minion for spriggan form bleed companion? Sabercat?

[limpid veldt]

yeah

dont do solo raptor

no clearing capacity

[limpid veldt]

for sustain I think boar+regen set gloves is sufficient

[raven sluice]

Saber is really nice with EB + frenzy totem + companion ability. But it might be better with spriggan form still. I honestly have no idea

[raven sluice]

Reliquary nest is big, so it could definitely be better

Boar effect is so many nice things

[high stratus]

hah I've just been reminded of that bug where you could spec and then unspec the ailment chance on summon bear and it would keep stacking

[patent dock]

Yeah, I think so - it can get decent clear nowadays with upheaval procs, too

scorp still not terrible, its boulder has generic 100% more even if you don't spec it

[raven sluice]

Damn

[limpid veldt]

to think upheaval is trash on player but good on sabertooth

[patent dock]

Wings should get you more boar effect total iirc

[limpid veldt]

wings?

[patent dock]

of discord

[raven sluice]

If saber dmg is comparable to bear, it is probably better just cuz sabertooth caffeine intake + chain reaction to wipe the screen

Idr, doesn't saber have 100% more movement speed out of the box?

Bear has 25% less or something

In that case, saber is 266.7% times as fast

Just at running though. But it also has more multipliers in its tree

It also doesn't need your rage for like 30% of its DPS (bleed bear is prolly like 35% swipe, 30% EQ, 25% thornburst, 10% basic attack, or something similar)

[high stratus]

Saber base attack speed is really slow compared to bear iirc

It needs the procs and multipliers

[raven sluice]

It prolly has more speed in skill tree though. This build is very passive starved and bear makes that worse by having so low base movement speed and not a lot of attack speed in the skill tree

Saber might be more skill points hungry but less passive point hungry, since it has so many direct multipliers. Bear has only 50% more dmg, and then a bunch of nodes buffing thornburst, earthquake, swipe, but separately. So it is very inefficient to get it all

I have it atm, but that might be misplay

On saber it would more likely be mandatory

[raven sluice]

Edited this to clarify. Saber prolly saves like 8 points not clicking beastmaster passives for 32% minion movement/cast/attack speed

Cuz it has that on skill tree or chassis

[patent dock]

Bear double-hits on all its attacks, too

and gotta account for bear's hidden 75% more multi

[high stratus]

because of thorn burst?

okay so sabertooth has a base attack speed of just under 1/s but 30% more attack speed globally.

Bear has 1.467 per second attack speed but 22% less attack speed globally and 75% more damage

[patent dock]

Yeah

[candid topaz]

It didn't even try

started with the t7 minion tele

got the attun and was like "hell yeah lets see what the next one will be and maybe just stop"

well I stopped

[near leaf]

Oof

[candid topaz]

I think I was about to cook something good

just think if it got dex and str on it

I would drop my red ring so fast lol

[patent dock]

ouch

[high stratus]

[trim folio]

I regret having slam cdr and not level in summon spriggan for my current helmet

missed out +80% minion increased and summon sprig angle

[raven sluice]

Worth noting, bear probably spends the majority of the time not autoattacking if you max out both swipe and earthquake, which do not have the same attack time as bear auto. Also, I know EQ thornbursts on hit, but does swipe?

Earthquake has a 6s CD and is still like a third of the dmg or something, swipe gives aspect that gives more dmg, and also phys shred and cull and leech and slow, so I would definitely want some in all of them. But I don't know if they thornburst by default?

[near leaf]

I dont think so

[raven sluice]

Rip

It's still prolly worth having swipe, even if the base dmg from multis isn't a big upgrade and getting full investment is high cost/benefit, just cuz swipe tree has so many nice things. But maybe you just focus swipe tree on aspect duration, cull, 2-3 aspect stacks. Then let it stay on 2s CD without extra dmg

And phys shred even though boar gives giga pen

Or you go full ham, like I do atm. But it's a lot of points

Also, is 36% chance to thornburst on EQ hits with tripled against rares surpassing or capped at 100%? I got the impression almost everything in LE is surpassing by default, but this one is hard to tell

[near leaf]

Idk

[raven sluice]

Earthquake is very strong at least. Even on a 6s CD

60% less hurts a lot, but EQ is strong enough to still be kinda giga

But on full investment except global minion CDR, I think swipe is a bigger portion of bears total dmg than any other skill. It's even the highest dmg/cooldown vs EQ with Seismic Tide. But then bear will also be stuck in the swipe animation so much it will barely do anything else

And it's not far ahead of autos with thornburst

[high stratus]

minion CDR competes with boar effect on idol suffixes

[raven sluice]

Rip

[calm lake]

anyone pushed using tornado werebear this league? whats a typical corruption range it peaks at?

[raven sluice]

• saber has 182% of base movement speed
• saber has roughly 1.3 base APS (0.3% less than that so just messes up numbers for no real impact, can readd it last **) (130% base dmg per second)
• 150% more damage over time from tree (325% base dmg per second)
• 24% chance to trigger flurry swipes on autoattacks, flurry swipes hits 3 times and has nodes for 50% more dmg, that is equivalent to 4.5 hits so 24% * 4.5 = 108% more
• 20% chance to trigger upheaval on at minimum autoattacks, it adds 20% * 100% * 140% * 160% dmg = 44.8% more
• sabers extras summed are 152.8% more (325%, 152.8% more, 0.3% less **: -> 819.1352%)
• effectively 43% chance to trigger upheaval, it adds 43% * 100% * 140% * 160% dmg = 96.32% more
• sabers extras summed are 204.32% more (325%, 204.32% more, 0.3% less **: -> 986.07288%)

bear is much much messier

[high stratus]

swipes is an on direct basic attack trigger but upheaval is on melee hit I think

so in practice it triggers a lot more

[raven sluice]

ah, neat

so flurry can trigger upheaval

[high stratus]

yes

[raven sluice]

and has 3 chances to do so

[high stratus]

and upheaval can trigger upheaval

[raven sluice]

damn

[high stratus]

I think something like that is why Saber can suddenly clear the screen at times (or so I've heard, never tried saber personally)

[raven sluice]

So trigger on trigger sorta makes it so that while there's a 20% chance to trigger, there's then 20% * 20% chance to trigger twice, you get a number series that converges on 25%, which is the same as saying that since upheaval has a 20% chance to trigger itself it only has a 80% chance to consume itself on use instead of not going again. If it only costs 80% of itself, that means 20% trigger rate divided by 0.8 -> 25%, same as the number series.

idk if it matters that infinitely rarely, it triggers like 8 times on itself

could just cull that, but 24% is relevant and so close to 25% it's kinda easier number anyway

But total non upheaval attacks being autos 100%, flurrys 72%, and upheaval being 25% of 172% kinda works

It's in theory correct, but random and unpredictable

lul, bearquake deals almost the same as entire saber dmg unless I did some big error

[mossy wave]

Hello furries, i have a question regarding sabretooth and upheaval totem. If he creates a totem, does that mean sabretooths tree nodes affect totem?

[patent dock]

I think it's the opposite, stuff is capped at 100% chance unless it specifically says otherwise, which is mostly just ailments

[high stratus]

#🐺┃primalist message it's a bit strange, not entirely sure what's going on with it all

[mossy wave]

the line "If Upheaval creates Totems, thsoe totems still count as created by you, using your minion stats" is pretty vague too

when i test with dummy the cats totem does way more dmg, so i guess there is some interaction from its tree

[patent dock]

The "using your minion stats" is to specify that it's not using your sabertooth's minion stats

It's 100% intended to not use anything sabertooth related when it's upheaval totem

but there is that bug mentioned above

[mossy wave]

hm right not my manually cast totem does 6k and sabretooths one does 12k dmg to dummy

so iam happy with that^^

[raven sluice]

fair, I'll edit the spreadsheet but not make a new screenshot cuz I just dont think saber has a chance for pure dmg

unless those 15 points you dont have to put in shaman or the increased attack speed on saber tree are huge

plus easier crafting a helm and just slamming a vessel, for my build specifically

and saber doesnt eat your mana/rage

[tranquil lintel]

sabertooth freezes my game against the 3x omen echo with the amount of upheaval's that proc

[raven sluice]

xD

[tranquil lintel]

thats something

[raven sluice]

saber does have perks

easier to gear, easier to build, nice amount of inc attack speed on tree

needing 5 points in druid and 15 in shaman is not great on summon bear

and then you cant use inheritance of the erased unless you get spriggan belt and several enchanted idols

cuz you need rage totems or vines

[mellow kestrel]

I was today years old when I learned sabertooth can make totems

Sounds funny

[mellow kestrel]

Who’s that first Druid 👀

[near leaf]

The lord of cheese if you ask me

Play shatter Totem
But turns out they also a have lvl 100 falconer... How strange

They probably got to 7kc with the falconer

Made the shatter druid (it's only lvl 80)

And killed a confluence of oblivion to get the 1st place

Corruption ladder is such a good thing in the game

[mellow kestrel]

I do play totem shat lol thats why I asked . Thought that might be you

[raven sluice]

so with a medium amount of messing up, bleed bear killed abberoth in like 40s

gonna try bleed spriggan form saber next

just need to lvl saber and upheaval

[high stratus]

goodnight primalists (derogatory)

[mossy coral]

[high stratus]

if primalist isn't a slur then explain tempest strike

checkmate

(admittedly boardman storm totem pop is very funny)

[pallid valley]

it looks like I may be specing Warcry for my cold build, I'm kinda torn on if I actually want to veer up to Jormun's Wrath though, but if I don't I might need to spec apprehend

[wise leaf]

Basically yes knockback on warcry sucks

[pallid valley]

its the whole 'I mean I like the stun but I don't want the knockback'

do maelstrom or aspect of the crow actually have a stack cap, or just a practical how fast it can stack before falloff cap?

[mossy coral]

They got no cap

[pastel pumice]

So should I wait to enter altar of oblivion until I have finishe dthe main group of Mono's?

Or doe sit really matter?

Why does Tempest strike get a bad wrap anyhow?

[raven sluice]

damn, saber kill was like 30s

less messy, but I didnt expect it to be so good

what surprised me the most was that bear killed both harbingers before abberoth before either got any big attacks off, while saber had to kill them one by one, but that is very much luck based

with 45% cast speed, I get 17-27 thorn shields, so ladle adding like 155% should be nice

avaveraging 40+

though it takes time to get like max, cuz chance to recast takes time to reach a steady state

[patent dock]

You cannot enter until you've killed the harbinger of each timeline

[patent dock]

It just deals basically no damage

[sly bobcat]

it has horrible multipliers on the tree and bad ADE

it's fine in the campaign but very quickly gets outscaled

[limpid veldt]

no. minion cdr is prefix for primalist

[patent dock]

They generally don't roll on the same idols, only just became possible on large omen idols

and since it's just on one shape which is also an omen idol, it means you can't use wings and it's a pain to get a decent altar

assuming you can even get any of the idols themselves

[limpid veldt]

tbh wing is hard to optimize

[patent dock]

Not really, just pick up ocular or pyramidal altar and go for it

[limpid veldt]

you can have at most one idol of each type to have the maximal effect

[patent dock]

Boar leans into wings really well because it rolls on basically all shapes

[limpid veldt]

now my only problem with bleed bear

you cannot use taste of blood

at least for the cast speed setup

that taste of blood make bleed trigger faster

[patent dock]

You technically can by proccing melee hits, but it's not really a great item anyway

[limpid veldt]

yeah but you transform to spriggan to spam thorn shield

no melee here

[patent dock]

That's why you have to proc melee hits

because you can't directly use them

[limpid veldt]

problem is

if I want to have as many thorn shield as possible

then ladle+cleaver is required

[patent dock]

but I mean if you really want to use taste of blood for some reason, you can just detransform once you are ready to go in for the finisher

[limpid veldt]

yeah

but I can't even equip the weapon due to the reason above

[patent dock]

You can quick swap to it lol, but really taste of blood is just not worth it unless for some reason you have an insane amount of bleed duration somehow like stacking symbol of demise

[limpid veldt]

nah I wouldn't swap in fight

that's bad qol for me

[royal moss]

Laup's path upheaval with flight of quetzeri and frogs seems pretty good. I just stick leap on my right click and spam jump to get to the objective, and the map is clear by the time I get there. 300ish corruption is pretty tame with most of my gear still waiting for slams. I know I could do more damage if I went all in on frogs, but a super spammy leap and having move speed in every slot results in a lot of zoom.

[limpid veldt]

so in the end, saber is more consistent and better average kill time?

[pallid valley]

well my build is functional, but I've got absolutely no idea what I wanna be looking into for actual gear, it seems that's where most of my defenses are gonna be coming from...I also don't even know what my 5th skill is going to be at this point @_@. It's actually working fairly well, really took off once I got Warcry specialized, but I'm starting to feel the junky gear. Anyone got suggestions for what kind of stats I should be aiming for? Also, if I should be trying to focus on criting or stacking frostbite harder (or if the middle of the road thing works).
https://www.lastepochtools.com/profile/Uratoh/character/Voilbaer

The birds are there for support, I don't expect them to cause serious damage

[raven sluice]

Idk, I just did one kill on each. Saber should be less consistent cuz it's all RNG to trigger stuff while bear has cooldowns though

[raven sluice]

For wings, I was kinda thinking Pyramidal with:

• 1 1x1 Weaver (up top)
• 1 Wide (Grand?) Omen (second row from top)
• 1 Tall (Large?) Omen (to the left)
• 1 Adorned (middle)
• 1 The Land Before (right)
• 1 Ornate (bottom right)

For solo companion

Otherwise replace Land Before with 1 Humble or Proud and 2 1x1

Land Before is a lot of res though

And in that setup, you only need 2 omen idols, and get 100% effect even on the non-unique adorned

Unless bugged which I guess isn't unlikely

Could also use Throne of Ambition, you'll activate it with the same stuff you use to activate Aspect of the Viper if using Saber, but the armor is hardly needed in Spriggan Form

[high stratus]

It should work, says it ignores unique idols as well as not affecting them

[raven sluice]

Yeah, 90% chance it isn't bugged and works

xD

Can't get the CDR, but spriggan has only evade for that anyway, assuming you get enough rage sustain. And the pyramidal layout is so OP it should buff every idol except unique (cuz no mod types applicable) and the 1x1 weaver

Every idol in a refracted slot except 1x1, just doesn't work on uniques

And you get 2 weaver enchants with giga effect, haste on evade available if you don't fix that with maelstrom on thornshield, and then dropping boulders on casting thorn shield and gathering storm from maelstroms, for aspect of the viper

[high stratus]

I think you can buff corrupted affixes on unique idols maybe?

[raven sluice]

Ah, maybe

[high stratus]

Not with wings but with idol altar affixes?

[raven sluice]

Don't actually know

But good roll good corrupt land before shouldn't be hard at least. There's not many unique idols and apparently prophecies are even weighted now?

Wings Throne should be even easier cuz boss drop with no rolls

Throne of Ambition*

And harbingers needle replace the 1x1 weaver when needed

[raven sluice]

I think saber with wings of discord might be it anyway. Lower potential boar effect than reliquary nest, but you can use vessel with cleaver and ladle

Giga armor vs DoT, dodge, more passives so maybe you can even get dodge in BM tree, 5 nodes for 10str+10dex which is 80% saber dmg, etc

[limpid veldt]

hmm

right now

before trying bleed companion

I wonder if I should try EQ beastmaster

[tranquil lintel]

aftershocks or actually casting eq?

[limpid veldt]

aftershock. Maybe cast EQ when bossing

you know the meme rampancy+brutality combo right?

I wonder if aftershock has the brutality bonus

I decide to try BM because no way druid can have the same bonus

aspect of the shark

frenzy totem

[tranquil lintel]

I just assumed aftershocks wouldnt benefit from brutality so I never tried it

[limpid veldt]

hmm

maybe only trying after shock

[near leaf]

I think if you procc the Aftershock from idols they won't but if you get them from EQ they would

[tranquil lintel]

thats how it works

[near leaf]

You tried it?

[tranquil lintel]

yeah had the exulis already

an idol aftershock with no buffs does 68k on boss dummy

one procced from eq is doing 141k

ill do some more tests to be sure

[raven sluice]

Divining totem angle

[high stratus]

I think in 1.2 someone was playing self-cast melee phys EQ BM and sustaining mana somehow, they were talking about the build in this channel

idk if their setup would still work

[raven sluice]

Though that's very wonky to play. But should be buffed now with brutality, although you prolly get hella squishy?

We were a couple of people really enjoying earthquake. One guy was LL with wordlsplitter, another went shaman with lightning spell, I did a combo of idols with mana from swipe and divining totem nuke for bosses

[high stratus]

You'd think 0cd self EQ would be as difficult to sustain as avalanche

[raven sluice]

Also the guy who took it furthest, forgot him. He might have killed Uberoth with it on MG?

Using upheaval to buff it and nuking with seismic tide

Vessel of Strife + Uberoth glove and stuff

[high stratus]

Seems doable

Horrendous builder spender dynamic though

[tranquil lintel]

ok im not 100% sure but it deftinely seems like bruality doesnt effect idol aftershocks

[raven sluice]

But a lot of dmg. Maybe in a dream upheaval could handle the clear

Just leap/run/evade around clearing normal monsters with upheaval. Whenever something doesn't get so low from upheaval another upheaval would for sure kill it, nuke it with an earthquake

[limpid veldt]

@raven sluice btw, for normal aberroth kill

does your bleed sabertooth build have optimal items?

since I expect a faster kill if good items are used if you aim to kill uberroth in sub 3 min

[tranquil lintel]

I just got a 4lp firestarter drop and I rembered you saying this. Fire tornado is calling to me

[high stratus]

I hope that works better than I expect it to 🙂

[tranquil lintel]

I think it will be awful but I want to try

[wise leaf]

this would make sense to me as i feel like aftershocks would inherit cost modifiers based on the initial EQ gaining the modifier on use

[raven sluice]

I have real set rather than reforged t7 weaver ring, LP1 pale ox, LP1 cleaver, LP1 naals that should be at least LP1 mad ladle (maybe would double dps, or triple, idk), some random +2 skills ammy, didn't drop a vessel, questionable idols (several 1-mod), LP1 legends entwined I didn't dare corrupt, some random reforged glove that unfortunately has only t5 bear, random freeze multiplier, idr if useful sealed mod, lack +4 to bear on helm.

Gear is.... bad xD

But it's fine for 655c

I got a double t7 legacy of the quiet forest. It's better than the rest of my gear combined lul

Even though it's only 16 rage per 3s

And lvl 93 iirc

Also my idol altar is kinda bad

[high stratus]

good idol altars are tough to find

[raven sluice]

If ladle alone is triple dmg, the rest should be at least 50% more on top

[raven sluice]

True

At least drops are better in 655c than 100c. With some gearing I hope farming 1000c isn't too hard

[tranquil lintel]

i found most of my best altars farming 3x omen echo at around corruption 300 honestly

damn storm orb sucks

[raven sluice]

Boar is at 175% effect, that's 52.5% DR. I want that to be like 60%+. Then I have 1k ward cuz no vessel. Should be like 3-4k. Inheritance of the Erased for decent dmg upgrade. Ladle for triple single target cuz naals barely does anything for saber. Idk about primordial item, wings or legends. With wings I'd have go get a reforged amulet but could fit a red ring? Or 2 reforged weavers rings lmao. Drop experimented eternal gauntlet and use julra

[high stratus]

what's ladle doing for you sorry?

[raven sluice]

Full armor vs dot for 500 all attri, and you'd be aiming for 180 str/int, some dex and vitality and attunement

[high stratus]

cast speed per int with cleaver?

[raven sluice]

Yup

[high stratus]

weird using ladle on a minion build

[raven sluice]

Yeah

[high stratus]

I can see why but still weird

[raven sluice]

Worth prolly

I do like me some 168% cast speed wand

With 180 int and t7 cast speed plus weaver set

Then phys pen. Don't think there's a useful third affix. Blind on hit maybe since you need stormbolts and avalanche boulders for aspect of the viper anyway

But imo that should just be for your minions sake

[tranquil lintel]

embryo you seem like you've thought about tornado alot, is the best thing you can do with casting a ridiculous number of tornados just to have them cast storm bolts for you?

[high stratus]

afaik that's it

Maybe you could make ignite work, ignite has pretty good item support though none in primalist passives

[near leaf]

This unfortunately the only way to use it as main dmg dealer

[high stratus]

the multipliers aren't great

each tornado is going to apply (4+[800% ignite chance])*1.6 ignites plus whatever storm orbs do and with only 100% more damage I think

[near leaf]

Also it's a Spell DoT, so EHG doesn't allow it to do dmg

[high stratus]

so even with very good gear the ignites probably won't be amazing

[raven sluice]

Iirc, storm orbs would do dmg, if they weren't stuck on a tornado. Stormbolt has imo like the most OP targeting mechanic in the game

[high stratus]

you'd get fire shred from the gloves, more damage from firestarter's torch, lots of ignite chance from calamity & soulfire relic

[raven sluice]

Spoken as someone who only really played primalist 😅

[limpid veldt]

So the overall combo should be ladle+cleaver righr?

[raven sluice]

How would you like to autotarget an area around a monster anywhere relatively close to the screen? Say, 14 times per tornado?

[raven sluice]

I think so, but I haven't tried it yet

[limpid veldt]

Hmm

Hopefully at least as good as frog

[raven sluice]

Frog is meta though. It's not often you find Shangri-la in the jungle

[limpid veldt]

But they have been nerfed hard

[high stratus]

frog got nerfed by 1/3 and still S tier

[limpid veldt]

For me right now crow is the best

[high stratus]

maybe not S tier for UA but S tier for general content clearing

[limpid veldt]

U sure?

[high stratus]

nope, but that's what I hear

[limpid veldt]

Because I tried crow and bear

And I dont believe any other primalist companion build can come close to these two in single target

And in this patch I used dual wield for crow and their dmg is on par with bear now

[raven sluice]

Probably not on primalist (derogatory)

[limpid veldt]

Crow also has nice clear

[limpid veldt]

Yeah, fixed that

Crit HS death knight is still the best

I just failed to one shot uberroth with it

At least it can if 7 bolts are merged to the single one so that uberroth will no able to lock his health when some of the bolts has reduced his health low enough

[raven sluice]

I'm just inspired by Embryo Selections observation that primalist should be considered a slur when discussing build power

So like, earthquakes mana cost is quite primalist. Same as avalanches mana cost

Stormbolts dmg is quite primalist, but tornado has bladedancer amounts so it's viable

[limpid veldt]

But minion BM builds are exceptions

[raven sluice]

Paying 30 storm stacks to cast earthquake and still paying for half is cool but unfortunately seems kinda primalist

[limpid veldt]

:)))

[raven sluice]

xD

[limpid veldt]

Yeah most of primalist non minion build sucks

[high stratus]

it's getting 30 stacks and being able to use upheaval without clunk that's primalist

[limpid veldt]

At least shatter totem is good

[vapid canopy]

@limpid veldt

[high stratus]

I think the damage of avalanche triggering stormbolts, upheaval and EQ is probably quite acolyte but the hoops you have to jump through to make it all work are pure primalist

[raven sluice]

Ah, you first get 30 stacks, and then "drumroll" use a super slow attack that costs mana to trigger another slow attack that has a discount?

[vapid canopy]

will try this with throne of ambitionb

should be super strong already

[limpid veldt]

You should have done so already

[high stratus]

fire aftershocks?

[limpid veldt]

Literally no reason for physical EQ

[vapid canopy]

yeah seems like it

[high stratus]

armor shred works better and you save a couple of skill points

[vapid canopy]

the only downside i see is less armor shred effectivenss

[high stratus]

phys may be worse overall but those are real reasons

[vapid canopy]

and yeah 1 sp

[high stratus]

dot aftershocks may be better idk

in which case the question of armor shred doesn't matter

[vapid canopy]

im playing with seismic tide

[raven sluice]

Also, primalist (not in the derogatory sense) has more scaling for phys/cold/lightning, than fire

[vapid canopy]

and just 1 shot 500 corr harbinger with 1 cast

and yeah with 20 throne stacks

thats some dmg

[high stratus]

top 3 primalists that actually seem to be played on the SC ladder are a storm bolt/tornado/werebear druid, a bearquake BM and a spriggan form totems shaman

[raven sluice]

But throne is good. Misha used that so I believe in it

[high stratus]

there's a shatterquake build up there too, but it's <lvl100 and seems to just be someone using confluence to leapfrog their corruption up high rather than pushing

[raven sluice]

Ah

How much is high corruption?

[high stratus]

the lowest of those 3 I mentioned was the totem shaman at 4.5k

primalist is the only class with two masteries below 1% share of the playerbase on the SC ladder from what I can see.

these are the unpopular masteries

druid and shaman clearly both have good builds but outside of those builds it's incredibly primalist.

[raven sluice]

Shaman tree is incredibly primalist. Druid tree is acolyte and BM tree is rogue

[high stratus]

more than 70% of players on the SC ladder are playing Bladedancer (37.8% lol), VK, Paladin or Runemaster.

[lofty rover]

Does tempest strike divide its flat damage between 3 types phys,cold,lightning? For melee purposes

[raven sluice]

It picks one

Iirc

[high stratus]

it uses 3 attacks in sequence which are different elements

I think

[lofty rover]

Well thats a problem

[high stratus]

they have different speeds too

[raven sluice]

If it casts a specific tempest by base functionality, that's the melee element. If you remove the tempest it still does that element just without a tempest, afaik

[high stratus]

yeah it's kind of like Rive's 1-2-3

[lofty rover]

Cause if I could just force one for melee purposes the skill it self would get damage to be viable

[limpid veldt]

I wonder how many people will play bladedancer next season

[lofty rover]

Bladedancer was already damm strong in 1.3

[high stratus]

I wonder how many will play VK next season, it's got durable popularity at this point

[limpid veldt]

At least ỉt has many builds that not one shotting uber

[lofty rover]

They day vk its unplayable Sentinel playe base will get gutted by 60%🫡

[limpid veldt]

Hmm

[high stratus]

even with warpath being bugged in an annoying way most of the season it's got loyal players

[raven sluice]

Shattered Lance angle? With Julra Vessel and Legends Entwined?

Vessel, not julra

[limpid veldt]

For bladedancer

It still has shuriken build

[lofty rover]

No ramapncy brutality combo with frenzy belt it has 20 mana cost and we can stack more damage a ton easy

[limpid veldt]

So I guess it's still good in next season

[high stratus]

if you could remove the other strikes along with the tempests the cold strike is the one with 1.833 speed

[lofty rover]

Cascade also

[high stratus]

that alone wouldn't make it amazing but it would be good for the shattered lance approach

[limpid veldt]

Ah yes so its position will be more than 1.3 a bit

Since that and shuriken

[lofty rover]

Cascade gor buffed so yeah pretty good

Blade dancer was best acid flask but noe that is dead

[limpid veldt]

I thought it's falconer

[high stratus]

shaman tree is very bleh but the druid one has so many nodes that are so narrow I don't much care for it

[vapid canopy]

fire is not much better tbh

[limpid veldt]

You also have your falcon throw additional flasks

[lofty rover]

Nope blade dancer scaled better for corruption purposes too

[limpid veldt]

Ah ok

So which bladedancer skill will be used for acid flask?

[lofty rover]

Acid flask is dead unless its tree gets updated bad

[limpid veldt]

Sad

So only good fire rogue build is throwing shadow rend?

[lofty rover]

Explosive trap allowed stuff to be played ,like they kill detonating arrow,then at least explosive trap allowed toy to play it,they kill it there too,now also they kill acid flask interaction like idk what ehg doing

[raven sluice]

Shaman is like, on several tiers there arent any options that are good enough, especially if you don't go totem. Druid I would say your points are probably required at least, not just "click a turd to progress". BM you wanna click like 90 points probably, at least if you're a summoner

[limpid veldt]

That's why I doubt EHG's nerf and balance ability

[mossy coral]

They want you to use the skill itself which is worse and plays worse

[limpid veldt]

And I dont know the fate of umbral blades recall next season

But good news is bladedancer still has shuriken and original cascade

[mossy coral]

Nerfs they did in the past was good, they seem to straight up kill interactions and kill builds in the latest seasons. Before official release things was changed but not dead on arrival

[limpid veldt]

@lofty rover tbh I hope shadow rend might still be good next season

The thing need to be fixed is umbral blades recall

The recall is what one shots uberroth

If we use shadow rend with pure cascade then things are fine

[mossy coral]

Also sorry minh I never got the chance to look at the things you posted about smite and stuff but I haven't really played multi smite, only played that skill before the sentinel rework

[lofty rover]

Meh it will be still needs to get nerfed all of it, rogues one shooting content from 1.0 and onwards is not fair and bad take by ehg,kill serpent strike though that aint allowed

[limpid veldt]

Void multi smite is good

[mossy coral]

Afaik the changes they did to runemaster after its release also killed builds, I think there was a lot of bugged skills but still, a lot was unplayable after

[limpid veldt]

At least it's not insane enough to be nerfed next season

[mossy coral]

I don't like when a bug makes a skill insane, then a bugfix and/or a nerf and you can't even play that skill anymore, its exactly what happened to serpent strike

Even when bugged serpent strike wasn't even a good skill, it was awful unless you killed bosses

[limpid veldt]

The rogue case now is even tougher. It can one shot bosses while farming well

I dont know how EHG will work with it

[mossy coral]

Yeah so many skills have a problem, when I saw bladestorm can have shurikens spinning combined with it can hit target multiple times now I went

[lofty rover]

They have to nerf/kill many skills

Cause how Mike points out every dev has a class they have an easier time giving suggestions for and for him is rogue vs like acolyte,and many of then probably feel this way

[tranquil lintel]

this game has a problem of some skills being incredible and many being borderline unplayable for anything post 300c

theres so much great potential with builds and ideas then you test it out and the skill does close to zero damage, or its bugged

[lofty rover]

Blade storm is fine ,but shadow rend mega bonkers,umbral bs all those 8%? Idols are gonna be next league 2%🤣

[mossy coral]

A lot of skills used to be 1 skill proc another, which is like 2 for 1. With bladestorm for example you throw out 3, spins/hits 24/7, seek out targets, have shurikens or whatever spin as well/hits AND it lingers if you cast the skill again.
Excuse me but 1 press of a button and you're hitting 500 times, how can that compete with a melee attack that hits once, which also is MELEE.

[wise leaf]

it's okay guys

[lofty rover]

At least with blade storm you can die with shadow rend its unlikely

[mossy coral]

Shadowrend and stuff got the new treatment of skills, it does an absurd amount of damage

[high stratus]

umbral blades recall has been great in one form or another forever hasn't it?

[wise leaf]

we get 600% ade every 5 maelstrom stacks

[lofty rover]

Recall already was doing 100 to 200 million in 1.3

[near leaf]

It's only been 2 seasons (now 3) of it oneshotting Uber

[limpid veldt]

But back then has it been used with other skills for mapping?

[high stratus]

I know mana flay is still amazing but every other kind of flay doesn't have that new skill feel to it afaict

[limpid veldt]

In this season we have cold flay :)))

[high stratus]

reasonable

[high stratus]

harvest/flay?

[limpid veldt]

Pure flay

Harvest to gain mana

[high stratus]

with brutality & rampancy?

[limpid veldt]

Yeah :)))

[high stratus]

makes sense I guess, why cold?

[limpid veldt]

At least that's what noobzor did

[mossy coral]

For context, 1 bladestorm = 6 things that are hitting constantly without your attack/cast/throw speed, I tried for fun to make those things shoot out the shurikens instead of spinning and the DPS dropped by a lot because that's way less hits/second.
EHG is designing skills so unbalanced

[limpid veldt]

Aod+throne of ambition?

Btw

[high stratus]

I always forget about throne

[mossy coral]

Yeah that's the problem too, a skill can be okay or pretty bad but as soon as you have a big scaling factor like mana then its really strong

[limpid veldt]

Is bastilla and explosive bastilla the only good falconer this season?

[lofty rover]

Yeah but the flay one is for bossing not mapping

Problem is when they just get to do everything for free

Idc blackhole one shooting uber cause either go mg or suffer with idols , plus itd not good at mapping kinda sucks so thats ok

[limpid veldt]

Yeah

[near leaf]

@patent dock
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/904447219338444861/1495749558636904638/image.png?ex=69e760d4&is=69e60f54&hm=b979f521400c3494fa637d1e99f0297845e10b634e44e2a4a080f0b999bc5368&

Not mine, from a friend

Your favourite weapon

[patent dock]

and it rolled 4% crit

That is a spicy rune dagger

[trim folio]

Quite impressive

[high stratus]

8% all res vendor that trash

finding something worth slamming on that is gonna be tough

[wise leaf]

man

why the hell are all the heal minion effects

one minion

[mossy coral]

Too OP otherwise clearly

[patent dock]

They aren't literally all single minion, tbf

[wise leaf]

i just think all the "single minion" bonuses are so crap

because it starts bingo locking you out of other options

wanna use inheritance? well now you gotta have a single minion or it's mid as hell

[patent dock]

Yeah, I like that there's different gearing/skills/etc. for solo vs. pack, but always seems like solo has a lot more support

[wise leaf]

for passives yes, for items hell naw

[mossy coral]

Not for wolf/raptor

wolves seems to be same dmg as pack or solo, just better clear as pack

[raven sluice]

How can wolves clear better when fewer?

Fair

[mossy coral]

Yeah mb, misstyped

[raven sluice]

Point of solo wolf is unlocking helm slot mostly, imo

Otherwise you're using artors, or exalted helm

Or frog helm

[mossy coral]

Or west wind

[raven sluice]

Unless squirrel but squirrel should do more solo

[raven sluice]

That's what you unlock helm slot for xD

[mossy coral]

xD

[raven sluice]

Hmm. Primalist 2, BM 3, BM direct node 4, BM X pt bonus 5, free wolf 6

8% more dmg with solo nodes

Hardly relevant tbh

[mossy coral]

Well there's 2 wolves not 1

[raven sluice]

Yeah, that's why 1.85×1.75×2

[mossy coral]

Ah great

[raven sluice]

Hmm. Raptor would be 1.85×1.75/ (6×0.58)

I wonder if they graphed this or something

[patent dock]

Probably, most of the time they do math things out like this

[raven sluice]

Makes sense

Sometimes, math guy seems to be on vacation. But yeah

[patent dock]

it's just the other random things they don't, like total multi from skill nodes

[mossy coral]

Yeah melee GS is really good

In 2020

[raven sluice]

Was the game released in 2020?

If not then it makes sense

[patent dock]

Melee GS was never good 🥲

[raven sluice]

Like it's a cool idea. So definitely better before they made the game, in case a developer already had the idea

[mossy coral]

It would if the skill we have now was in 2020 😛

[trim folio]

:p

[near leaf]

Or crit multi per umbral blade

[lavish star]

anyway to stop thhorn totem from despawning if I use storm?

Using laupas path and its annoying lol

[mossy coral]

Don't take the node that eats thorn totem

[lavish star]

is it worth it or?

I find storm totem a bit slow

[mossy coral]

You can get minion TP on boots or ring, then you just need to warcry, storm totem and then use leap to TP your storm totem with you

[lavish star]

is that achievable early on

[mossy coral]

Yeah, some champion will drop a ring with that modifier

[raven sluice]

I did some guesstimating on what could be comfortable to farm on spriggan form companion bleed, and I think tankyness might actually be overkill for 1000c, but that's prolly the ceiling for good dmg without casting thorn shield vs packs

Overkill armour + prolly 100% armour vs dot, plus a couple 100 ward gen, 350%+ retention, plus like 66.7% DR from aspect of the boar. I have a fraction of that, but 655c doesn't feel too bad. Didn't die yet in an echo on 655c at least. But if dmg while clearing can only like double, it might be a problem

[high stratus]

that node is absolutely giga for storm totem

[patent dock]

tbh I don't think it would have been good ever

I mean, swipe has basically always been around as junk and GS is worse than that

[patent dock]

or <insert rogue mechanic here>

[open ravine]

did anyone make a storm bolt build at all with the new idol? or is stack generation too meh

[high stratus]

I've tested offline and it does work as a shaman with chavalanche but you need a couple of slower storm stack expenditure idols and the mana cost is still substantial

I haven't tried a melee setup where you mix in upheavals to trigger EQ

I don't think non-channeled avalanche is affordable, I could be mistaken but it just doesn't seem to be

I think you could maybe make an AS idols trigger boulders & large boulders trigger upheaval approach work but the triggered EQs would be weak

[open ravine]

if only there was a more passive stack generation smh

and maybe the idol itself isn't even worth you can get the stack expend on EQ too

I need to check if the scorp expending your stacks counts as it's damage or yours

[high stratus]

it saves mana relative to the proc in avalanche tree and saves skill points

[open ravine]

cause maybe it's just actually a scorp build lmao

[high stratus]

well scorp can't use the idol

minions can't proc the trigger

scorp doesn't do enough boulders to generate stacks either

but scorp doesn't pay for EQ procs via avalanche tree anyway so

just seems like the builds don't quite come together

I think the 0.5 second cooldown is basically irrelevant because you can't generate 20 storm stacks per 0.5 seconds anyway

[open ravine]

yeah I mean from the uh EQ node not the idol

cause it procs your storm stacks I just don't know who owns the bolt.

[high stratus]

if you spec avalanche to give storm stacks then you get the stacks from scorpion

but it never really goes above 2 stacks from what I could see

[open ravine]

yeah I know

and nah you can get a lot

thats how I got shock nova to work

[high stratus]

really?

[open ravine]

yeah

[high stratus]

I'd think shock nova would be better as BM even if you can get the scorpion to generate the storm stacks for you

friends of the tempest with lightning scorpion should do a decent job of keeping the stacks rolling right?

[open ravine]

you get like perma 30-40 stacks on single target and it self feeds the stacks if you take the minion stack gen node in GS

I had used it with some other minion procs like claw totems

oh wait I was using GS manually too for that setup. I can't find the video where I just had the minion generating stacks

[high stratus]

I could see it as qol for getting that first stack for friends of the tempest to take over but in general I'd still expect BM to be better if clunkier

but this is #🐺┃primalist, embrace the clunk

[patent dock]

It's your bolt since it's your stacks

[open ravine]

I figured but idk I've seen some funky stuff, so wanted to make sure 😛

[open ravine]

it's actually so sad how much you have to press and keep track of to maximize damage on primalist 🙁

[high stratus]

did anyone get to the bottom of what's happening with sabertooth summoning upheaval totems? There was something about them getting scaling from ancestral sabertooth stuff

and that you could have 6 upheaval totems out at once somehow? 3 of yours and 3 of the cat's

#suggestions message upboat

[open ravine]

idk but sounds about right. since it sounds like the same as Bear and Claw Totems

[high stratus]

what happens with bear and claw totems?

[open ravine]

bear has it's own proc rate, like yours isn't shared, so you can get more claw totems out

I want to try the build but won't be that great lmao

[mossy coral]

gave you an upboat

[high stratus]

everything's coming up milhouse

[mossy coral]

But tbh they should rework the whole GS

[high stratus]

it could do with more multipliers for the bolts so that you don't need to find a way to trigger eleventy billion of them to have a good build

[mossy coral]

Like stacks spreads to enemies, or shoot out chains per 5 stack you have or something

Double down on spell or just melee doing melee damage

[high stratus]

instead of expending a storm stack triggering a storm bolt have it trigger an indirect usage of the GS melee attack

a very localised very angry storm

[raven sluice]

I want a node that makes you teleport to the stormbolt with a 0.08 second cooldown

And strike with GS as you arrive

Nah, but on a more serious note. I agree it should be heavily improved, or possibly completely reworked, though that would be a bit sad cuz I like the idea

[high stratus]

so you're just riding the lightning until you run out of enemies or stacks? no brakes on the train

I like the idea too, but storm stacks are just far far too scarce for the concept to work

[raven sluice]

[high stratus]

tornado and storm totem just output so many more bolts than stacks can as things stand

[raven sluice]

Yeah. Ngl, I think storm stacks probably need to shoot several stormbolts on consumption

Idk how many. 2-3?

[tranquil lintel]

Id like more options to generate them too

[raven sluice]

Same

[high stratus]

you can sort of get this already with conflux, LST and the dual wielding node but it's all unpredictable

[mossy coral]

Picasso.
Why can't GS shot bolts and chain + lightning bolt on the enemy as well and this can be either spell or melee with different effects

[raven sluice]

This was just an idea. Could be 1 option, maybe even a unique instead of in skill tree. But I thought it seemed cool #suggestions message

Idk if even with storm breaker and extra stack from exalted affix and 25% chance per enemy hit to gain 3 extra stacks for 18 mana and 240% base melee AoE it would be good at 140% attack time with no attack speed scaling? Assuming 100% to gain +1 from exalted affixes, and storm breaker, you'd start at 12 per hit. 25% per enemy hit to gain 12 more

[mossy coral]

shameless plug

[sly bobcat]

the staff bolt node should get something more than a direct cast of storm bolt

it should at least count as spending a storm stack for everything on the tree that cares about that

[mossy coral]

Yeah, and it's not even good

-6 mana to cast it and it's worse, what a great node

Dunno why they even bothered to add it

[sly bobcat]

honestly I don't think the mana cost is that big of a deal

[mossy coral]

(And I remember it was bugged on release)

[sly bobcat]

so that you can play as a spell caster entirely. it makes sense from a flavor perspective

it's just bad

[mossy coral]

Yes it is, you want it to take mana/bolt, -16 mana compared to -10(per cast kind of) and you don't get the mana back per cast is really weird

The only dmg node that really matters in that tree is the dmg/mana

[sly bobcat]

that's another design flaw

like a lot of other skills it just doesn't have many multipliers on it

[mossy coral]

But it's so bad, the caster thing is cool but the execution is rough

[sly bobcat]

tempest strike, acid flask, upheaval

gathering storm also has the identity problem where a lot of the nodes don't affect the storm bolts themselves

[tranquil lintel]

Like the melee damage per strength node not doing anything for spell damage

[raven sluice]

What about a node in GS that just said:

• +1 storm stack per attack per point, 5pts

[high stratus]

that staff node could be just gain X storm stacks on cast instead of direct cast one bolt

[sly bobcat]

I like that it directly casts a bolt

it just needs more

[high stratus]

I like the idea of feeding the storm

[mossy coral]

500 flat on a 100% ADE skill that hits slower than a snail with 76% more and 40% pen SIGN ME UP
(Melee)

[raven sluice]

I'm not convinced that 6 storm stacks per skill use without needing to hit anything and not spending mana would actually beat tornado

[sly bobcat]

sure but that's not much different from just using the melee attack. it should cast the bolt and still make stacks. it's dumb that it removes all stack generation from it

[mossy coral]

tornado is casting bolts as fast as you and you create 2 of them lul

[raven sluice]

Yeah

[sly bobcat]

you can create far more than 2 of them lol

[raven sluice]

Tornado is 14 bolts per cast

[high stratus]

tornado has a much much higher cast rate than GS as a spell lol

underrated thing about Tornado is that it's 1.8 casts/s ish

[mossy coral]

Yeah but per cast xD

[sly bobcat]

playing with wind tempest gave me a new respect for tornado as a skill

individual tornadoes don't do much damage but you put a metric ton of them out there. it does volume-of-fire correctly imo

meanwhile wind tempest exists

😡

[raven sluice]

I think storm orb tornado could be interesting with tornados that follow you

Since you can cast more, they just don't doublecast. At least someone said so

[high stratus]

as an ailment applicator maybe

[raven sluice]

Frostbite yup

[mossy coral]

Well another problem with tornado actually dealing damage is the fact they do the damage on the enemy for 2 seconds they then flies off into the terrain and off the screen, or just hangs out beside you dancing

[high stratus]

not that tornado has particularly good multis for ailments

[sly bobcat]

orbs have like 100 ADE. they're pretty bad for direct damage

[raven sluice]

But they hit quite fast, and last 7s

[high stratus]

you get like 10 of them if you spec for it right?

[raven sluice]

Or something

[high stratus]

so 1000-ish ADE per tornado

[sly bobcat]

tru, but you're losing most of the multipliers that would affect it

[raven sluice]

Tornado has more dmg in storm orb than stormbolt afaict, and tornado stormbolt has been shamans and druids strongest build since serpent strike afaik

It's just that storm orbs way of hitting is incomparably worse

[sly bobcat]

storm bolt gets flat damage based on your attunement and still benefits from maelstrom crit

[raven sluice]

True

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[sly bobcat]

AND still benefit from the mana node

definitely do way more than orbs

[mossy coral]

30 maelstroms doing 1500 ADE POG

[raven sluice]

At the very least, orbs should be better for ailments. But they're not really functional for anything imo

[sly bobcat]

they've been used for extra ailments in the past but never really for damage themselves

[tranquil lintel]

I tried earlier and storm orbs don't seem to convert to fire if you you convert tornado

[raven sluice]

You need to anchor the tornado to yourself to make orbs useful probably, but then you also halve your stormbolts

Unless you trigger tornado in swarmblade?

[sly bobcat]

dread had a stationary tornado frostbite build a while ago

[raven sluice]

Since trigger iirc doesn't doublecast

[mossy coral]

He's also saying "frostbite freaking sucks"

[raven sluice]

Stationary seems better than moving, but I wouldn't wanna use that either

[sly bobcat]

it does, but the build still exists lol

[raven sluice]

If I'm using storm orb, I probably wanna melee, and probably do it in swarmblade

[mossy coral]

Yeah

[raven sluice]

For frostbite

[sly bobcat]

my frostbite acid flask build will be good one day

surely

[raven sluice]

xD

[high stratus]

Frostbite's item support feels like it's all very much a version 0.X design

[mossy coral]

But you have frostbite pen in GS!!! huuuuuge

[sly bobcat]

i actually think snowdrift is a fantastic design. Turning a support stat into a damage stat is interesting

[raven sluice]

Pen isn't huge on frostbite cuz boots. You don't get % dmg but apparently that doesn't matter cuz ele dot. Frostbite is giga weird

Just pretend there are no attributes for stormbolt frostbite

[warm tide]

is whetstone gavel good for any specific build or am i gonna hve to try to brew on my own

[raven sluice]

Howl of the west wind wolves

Prolly other things too, but I don't know about them

[sly bobcat]

i can't think of anything that wants gavel directly. I've wanted to play with it a bit

it gives +2 to tempest strike

[raven sluice]

3 t7 mods of flat melee lightning is nice when you do that. Idk if maces can roll flat cold dmg, if so maybe shattered lance

Basically, do you need 3xt7 melee weapon mod that is available on mace and something you can dual wield

Plus are you a fan of armor

[warm tide]

I wonder if primalist would even be the best class for gavel

Ive spent sm time js looking at skill tree to try and see some line with it

[raven sluice]

I wanna make shattered lance tbh. Just need to hit the craft on a double t7 1h sword

Get like 220 flat from off hand, 65 from main hand

[tranquil lintel]

Crystal sword? Or katana?

[raven sluice]

Fastest possible or one of those prolly

Scymitar?

[sly bobcat]

crystal sword should be the fastest for an eleattack build

[raven sluice]

It's got increased rather than highest base though

But it has very good mods

Implicits*

Katana is also nice. Crit multi

[trim folio]

Scimitar is best for pure ailments but pure ailments are rarely a thing nowadays

[raven sluice]

Imo the point is probably to play some non-cold melee attack cold to use the shaman str stack melee node, iirc

[near leaf]

They are pretty rare in Primalist indeed

[raven sluice]

Like aftershocks or TS

Upheaval maybe too, then the flat on the base is relevant and you get berserk

[tranquil lintel]

If you're running brutality do you think you take some armor rolls on gear to compensate. Feels like it takes alot of investment to get decent armor without strength scaling it

[trim folio]

Armor is pointless to scale without str imo

[raven sluice]

Would need to find a graph for armour, and consider your base, that's what I would do anyway

Idr what matters more, the difference between 2k vs 4k, or 4k vs 8k

[tranquil lintel]

I'll have a look when I'm home. Gonna to try something with my brutality rampancy exulis and fangs of the berserker + EQ

[raven sluice]

Cold aftershock dots can use ele dmg over time lul

And pretend there wasn't a design flaw in 25% of primalist called mage

It's a shame mage has melee attacks. So primalist can't have fire melee attacks. Otherwise that could have worked. At least they made rayeh armor tho

Cuz mage is banned from minions

[near leaf]

I would love for all the fire stuff to get the f out of primalist

So we can get cold eq and Tornado

[raven sluice]

Agree

It's like rule of cool can break class boundaries, as long as it sucks

Which is very frustrating from a player perspective. Speaking as a player considering the dev perspective, it's like ...indulgent?

Bad analogy (edited it out)

But they should think it through and know better since they actually made those class boundaries to begin with

[winged swallow]

Does the "Skull crusher" node in bear form make stuff that converts fury leap to also convert maul?

[raven sluice]

Yrun's?

idr, I saw people discuss that long ago

[patent dock]

Yes

[winged swallow]

Nice. That's awesome

[sly bobcat]

i like the idea of keeping all the weird conversions on items

fire eq and nado can stay on their items

[patent dock]

Yeah, I like fire shaman as a random one-off thing, like void mage

It's not super valuable at the moment, but someday maybe

primalist just has bigger issues it needs addressed

[raven sluice]

I think a lot of issues would kinda solve themselves if all fire was moved to items and replaced with cold, and you could convert boar to frostbite or something