💀┃acolyte

[kind forge]

rip blood is gonna be intresting

[little wigeon]

also the bone curse from CB does not consume the 15mana or so

[kind forge]

no more need to spec into blood splatter for aoe dmg

[little wigeon]

yea i leveled with that and blood spatter aint too bad for campaign

[kind forge]

i couldnt

always dropped it the second i got anything better lel

[little wigeon]

altho im going to go pure melee this time with harvest

i mean warlock - just fissure and done lol

[kind forge]

deaths embrace or the new axe?

[little wigeon]

well leveling until i can get flay, prob wont rely on a unique

traitors tongue would be nice

prob use some early runes of ascendance on daggers

[kind forge]

high lvl req tho sadge

i forget if it was 70 or 80

[little wigeon]

huh its lvl 27?

[kind forge]

OH traitor

nvm

was thinking the axe

[little wigeon]

just the skillups would be op. +8 skills on a dual wield

for both harvest and flay 👀

[kind forge]

OH YE thats +4 to harvest right now per axe

per dagger

sorry

[vivid ruin]

The dagger is also very strong itself

in either slot.

From a leveling perspective

[kind forge]

nah

just offhand

cuz the crit

[little wigeon]

yea i plan to use traitors in offhand in endgame

new 1h axe in main

[kind forge]

the other side is kinda irrelivant ... you would just be using it for the skill lvls

[vivid ruin]

Yea, i'll be axe+traitor unless the prim spear forces elsewhere.

[kind forge]

ye

i might try for that too honestly

[little wigeon]

oh i will def be trying out that spear too if its left unchanged haha

[vivid ruin]

My drop filter is ging to look so absurd with the magics required for dumb spear.

[kind forge]

high chance they jnust remove the exalted condition

so has to actually be blue items

[little wigeon]

yea probably, would be fair. sacrifice defense for alot of offense

it had a high LP chance too according to maxroll

[slim mason]

spear gonna get rebalanced so i wont put that much investment into that

if too oped

[little wigeon]

can easily get 2LP

[vivid ruin]

Is it? As in, devs confirmed?

[slim mason]

look at bastion of honor

they did it dirty

if everyone is using it... its a candidate

[little wigeon]

2x LP7s is the equivalent of 8x T7 weapon affixes xD

[slim mason]

just saying

[plush creek]

does anybody know how multiple different damage taken as effects work? wondering about the amulet for 100 phys as poison and the lich node for 50% dot as poison

[molten bramble]

The primal dagger might be better than traitors off hand.

[stuck abyss]

id agree

[molten bramble]

But it also might be primal crit neck or some other defensive primal and traitors off hand

because traitors is pretty good

[little wigeon]

That crit amulet just looks fun, I hope it's a new crit color

[vivid ruin]

I doubt it. It might beat the axe main hand though.

But primordial is a huge oppourtunity cost

Crit neck is strong. Idol relic is interesting also.

[molten bramble]

I think crit neck is pretty lack luster

[vivid ruin]

It's a 30%more effectively if you haver 300%CM normally.

[molten bramble]

caps at 40% and 300% crit multi is not that much of a gain when you already have 400-500%

[vivid ruin]

Yea, if you have 500 it's much worse.

I dont know if 500%cm is going to be realistic for all specs though.

[molten bramble]

most specs get between 400 and 500

if they are building into crit

[vivid ruin]

Yea, but lich has huge oppourtunity cost build in to everything

I think i'm cold, dex>mana>crit.

So the CM will probably suffer slightly.

Or it wont. We'll know as soon as they update planner 😄

[abstract summit]

i think we have a metric fton of crit multi actually

[molten bramble]

I think there is enough support in skill trees and passives

to hit 400-500 with all the other stacking

[plush creek]

mourningfrost is a solid chunk of flat damage for cold builds

[abstract summit]

and as im putting the skill points into every skill i basically end up needing the plus levels from traitor everywhere

[vivid ruin]

100%

[molten bramble]

Why are you saying it would beat the axe?

[vivid ruin]

traitor is too strong to not use imo

[vivid ruin]

Penetration is very hard to come by.

[plush creek]

axe also gives 10% more in skill tree

[little wigeon]

40% pen is like 3x T7s

[vivid ruin]

All round the dagger is very strong. but 40%pen is insane imo.

[molten bramble]

You realize that the axe is not a primordial right?

[vivid ruin]

Yes

[molten bramble]

Not sure you can beat the chaos bolts

[vivid ruin]

Yea, was about to say that

Forgot the chaos bolt node

axe is must have

[molten bramble]

I think you can get 600-700% chance on chaos

by stacking mana

and then you can take the big bolt node

and it only uses 2 mana per bolt

seems cracked

[abstract summit]

40 pen is strong but I think the other weapons are just that much stronger

it's also 1 LP vs traitor's 3LP realistically

[molten bramble]

Traitors is def going to be atleast a stepping stone to primoridals

[vivid ruin]

I was thinking main hand. Traitor off is always there for me.

axe/traitor seems ost likely. Assuming spear changes.

[molten bramble]

Primordial dagger over traitors for speed farm prob

[vivid ruin]

Anyone quanitified the speed boost?

What's our base speed?

[little wigeon]

Yall still leaning cold?

[unreal hill]

i don't know but I'm using event horizon so my slam started a few minutes ago.

[vivid ruin]

0.1 move speed per 100 dex isnt clear to me 😄

[molten bramble]

I do not see any reason to move off phys

[abstract summit]

need to quantify how much damage the spells do vs the melee hits, but if we are speccing both marrow and CB I will hazard a guess the extra mana counts a LOT

[plush creek]

is the spider mace a possibility?

[vivid ruin]

I wont have marrow

[molten bramble]

bone marrow seems like a waste unless I missed something there is no flat scaling for it

[abstract summit]

you get it from the axe + the flay node

[vivid ruin]

Yea, it's weak. Just another source of burst, which isn;t bad. But i'd rather have death seal.

[little wigeon]

Mourningfrost

[molten bramble]

axe is only cb

[abstract summit]

and/or frost ye

[molten bramble]

mourning frost is probably the only way

[abstract summit]

ALL skills it triggers benefit from more max mana no?

[molten bramble]

yeah that is more dmg but flat on marrow is 0 so more dmg is not really effective

[vivid ruin]

Yes

[molten bramble]

You need to have flat spell

for that to matter

[vivid ruin]

Hence cold. Mourningfrost gives tons

[formal sparrow]

im very very very quickly just checking the acolyte lich since ive never played them before
how reliable is that top path?
like on the bottom you got ward retention ward decay threshold and res and above you you lose hp but gain ward per missing health
cuz i saw lich has the attacks and spells do more dmg the lower ur hp
equal to ur missing health*

[molten bramble]

yeah but I hate those boots

[vivid ruin]

and doesnt your flat melee d get added to spell somehow?

[molten bramble]

fixing res sucks

[formal sparrow]

i ask cuz one is about ward which im guessing you want if ur not gonna be full hp but top has the mechanic of lowering ur hp

[molten bramble]

It does for CB through axe but not morrowshards

[vivid ruin]

Tbh, it's only like 4 affixes. Minor pain.

[fossil vessel]

quick question i want opinions

[abstract summit]

oh ye for sure, if you spec marrow that's a mourningfrost angle

[vivid ruin]

You can have ward now.

[fossil vessel]

what would be the interaction between those 2

[vivid ruin]

I'll be mourningfrost without marrow I think.

[formal sparrow]

i feel like we arent understanding each other lol

[abstract summit]

dunno about that cause if you give marrow some flat its tree is kinda insane lol

[fossil vessel]

like what s the outcome from the passive node and the 240% max health as ward limite

[vivid ruin]

If youre asking about "maximum health", it'still your 100% life, not the new effective max of 50%.

[abstract summit]

like i would say the biggest benefitor of mourning is marrow

[vivid ruin]

I assume that it takes you above the 10k? ward cap?

But not sure.

[vivid ruin]

Can't we proc marrow without specialising it though? Still get the burst.

[fossil vessel]

no the health AND ward cannot exceed max health 50% and the 240% max health limite

[vivid ruin]

I havent decided on skills yet. Maybe AOD isn;t necessary.

[fossil vessel]

like they both act as limited ward but what takes prio

[abstract summit]

like wtf are these nodes lol

[vivid ruin]

Yea, good Q. I think we'll bneed to test to know. I first thought that passive would cancel ward like death seal used to.

[abstract summit]

and there are still like i dont know how much crit and cirt multi in there on top

[vivid ruin]

Yea, strong damage output potential. Maybe marrow over AOD.

[fossil vessel]

little do we know it s gonna be spagetti code that bring them to a total of 290% imagine XD

[abstract summit]

ye im not feeling AOD for crit flay

could be good for frostbite tho

[molten bramble]

I think it is kinda funny that we are getting Flay procing CB which procs Blood Rip and Harvest and we can add morrow shards are we really specing these 5 abilities and reaper form?

[abstract summit]

nah you only spec those which do most of the damage (you like the animation of)

[little wigeon]

Not rip blood for me. The benefits are direct cast

[abstract summit]

ye, same

[little wigeon]

Harvest tho goes brrr

[abstract summit]

technically prob shouldnt spec harvest either but will see what the math says, and im a s...er for scythes

[slim mason]

dread was cooking with primodial gloves

thinkuing that with flay and kill my gpu with blood splatters

[molten bramble]

Rip blood is going to be a huge ward gen in mapping I think with the aoe changes

[slim mason]

yah free rip bloos

procing from flay

and blood overload

[vivid ruin]

Can marrow shards even proc into a boss from flay?

[abstract summit]

ye

[vivid ruin]

Proc node says targetting another enemy.

[abstract summit]

Mike confirmed

[slim mason]

rather use cb than ms

[vivid ruin]

If no other enemy nearby it has to target same?

[slim mason]

ms dont turther proc right

[abstract summit]

Mike said it will first hit the only enemy nearby, then kinda goes towards "random" direction

[formal sparrow]

learning mage felt a lot easier than understanding aco QQ

[abstract summit]

but i dont care about pierce anyway

[slim mason]

cb can proc bone cursre and rip blood and harvest

[vivid ruin]

You've converted me.

[molten bramble]

marrow seems like you are stretching unless marrow can hit like a truck it is 1 shard per 1 flay cast and we are getting like 6 or 7 cb's per flay?

[abstract summit]

ye but rip procs are capped, and dont benefit from flay extra spell damage

[slim mason]

can tap into warlock curse multipliers though

[molten bramble]

and you need to play cold boots to even scale morrow

[slim mason]

with bone curse being proc

[abstract summit]

you do ye, but it does nto compete with CB. it competes with death seal / bone curse / rip blood spec imo

[molten bramble]

You also need 4 points from the flay tree

which could be alot

[abstract summit]

it's 60 crit multi on its own anyway

[slim mason]

making ms into gd prismatic shards

lol

[abstract summit]

31 points seems to do the trick 😄

[vivid ruin]

Curse/rip seem meh to me tbh.

[slim mason]

but rivers of bloods for the blood god

cool factor owns all

lol

[vivid ruin]

That could be a lot.

0% chance for +6 armor + 4 from dagger 😄

Might be ok skills wise. Will be interesting to see.

[slim mason]

guess im out of the spear meta seeing im gunning for hte glove

[abstract summit]

could I use 4 more points? sure
but mostly got everything i wanted

[vivid ruin]

Yea ima theorycraft no spear until they confirm no changes

[little wigeon]

There ya go for the marrow shard argument. Its in the alt text too

[vivid ruin]

where is this?

planner updated?

[abstract summit]

maxroll

[molten bramble]

spear meta seems busted

but You need carefully crafted gear to get there

[vivid ruin]

ty

[jovial lotus]

Spear was already nerfed to 20%, right?

[molten bramble]

still broken

it gives too much flat

and pen

[jovial lotus]

That's 180% (2.8x) max. For the downsides, doesn't seem that great

[molten bramble]

600 flat and 60% pen is too much offense

almost no builds get to that much flat

most are 300-400 at the top end

and you do not even have to use all 9 slots

you can use 7 or 8 and only the sickest off pieces and still get huge benefit from the raw flat provided by the spear

[formal sparrow]

im cooking some trash im gonna send yall after and then u can call me dumb 💪

[molten bramble]

I am wondering if mourning frost will double dip with axe for flat damage

with axe or spell node

[abstract summit]

no, axe only gives flat from explicits on the weapons

well, explicit and implicits

[plush creek]

how does it work with the frost claw node?

[molten bramble]

Yeah you are right both places only take weapon stats

[jovial lotus]

I'm really not sold, but we'll see

[vivid ruin]

Wait, wouldnt the axe take all the added flat from flay/dex + mourningfrost added flat, then apply them *0.5 to spells?

[molten bramble]

I do not think the spear is going to be a flay thing. I think the CB procs are too much

but I could see it be huge for other builds

[abstract summit]

is mourningfrost a weapon? 😄

[little wigeon]

The axe says on equipped weapons. That's a boot lol

[abstract summit]

plus it doesnt recognize conditional lines anyway

[little wigeon]

But both weapons should contribute right?

[abstract summit]

yep

[vivid ruin]

Then dont we need more flat damage sources for the weapon cos the axe has f-all.

[abstract summit]

implicits and explicits

[molten bramble]

yeah going to be a flat melee dmg angle

on slam

[little wigeon]

Yup

[abstract summit]

oh ye you slam those suckers with flat cold and something else for sure 😄

[little wigeon]

And then prob crit multi

Or I guess mana and mana regen if feeling spicy

[weak inlet]

When does the new season actually drop?

[molten bramble]

I am thinking we slam flat necrotic because of axe passive

[weak inlet]

Just made a new character in the current season like 2 weeks ago

[abstract summit]

flat cold and cold pen probably are given, i feel like we alredy have enough atk speed and % increased so prob crit multi or another flat

[molten bramble]

then just get melee mods elsewhere

and we get 40% all pen from dagger

[plush creek]

yeah I'm planning on Necro damage

[molten bramble]

can still get flat from mourning frost just scale with %melee dmg etc rather than cold

[kind forge]

lol

[abstract summit]

dont think we will have many open prefix slots for %s anyway

[vivid ruin]

If mourningfrost doesnt apply to chaos bolts, why be cold? Can just be int stacked and leave it as necrotic for spell procs.

[abstract summit]

why wouldnt it apply

[molten bramble]

mourning frost applies to EVERYTHING

[vivid ruin]

My bad

it applies

just doesnt get double dipped.

[abstract summit]

ye

[molten bramble]

your chaos bolt will just have 150ish flat cold

and scale with spell and cold modifiers and pen

[vivid ruin]

Yep, yep.

same page

I got my wires crossed.

[abstract summit]

cold is still big good because of throne, and you kinda dont want to penetrate and shred two different things. and marrow doesnt have necro convert

[vivid ruin]

Then tangled then and shat on them

[molten bramble]

I think morrow does close to nothing in the end damage profile

I think you can just ignore it

[vivid ruin]

It'll be ingteresting to see marrow/chaos vs pure chaos bolts.

What skill does dropping marrow give? Bone curse?

[molten bramble]

flay casts 7 CB's vs 1 morrow its not even close

[vivid ruin]

Isn't marrow multiproj?

[formal sparrow]

does armour shred help if ur shit is cold dmg?

[plush creek]

1 proj that pierces, or splits

[molten bramble]

yes but it is more effective for physical dmg

[vivid ruin]

Yea, so marrow shards spec'd should increase ST damage a fair bit.

[molten bramble]

It does nothing for dot dmg though so it wont scale frostbite dmg

[vivid ruin]

That's true. I wasn;t planning on doing dot. That's a different spec.

DOT is its own build imo and bleed/frost both look good.

Bleed looks stronger to me for dot tho.

If cold dot, surely mourningfrost gets replaced by frostbite boots too.

[abstract summit]

and they are still not competing with each other

[vivid ruin]

It's also not 7x chaos bolts. It's 7 single bolts. So similar number of projs as shards

For non dot builds, shards seems strong.

[plush creek]

just go for big bolts

[little wigeon]

Marrow has so many multipliers tho. A couple nodes at 75% that's huge

[abstract summit]

it has disgusting multipliers, flay mana stackin applies, it is free, and you still gonna crank out like 5 a sec

[vivid ruin]

I agree.

[little wigeon]

Yea unlucky that chains doesn't work otherwise that would be a huge 400% multi for CB

[abstract summit]

but again, im doing the math in the meantime to actually see 😄

[molten bramble]

I mean you are casting flay 1 to 1 for morrow shards. Morrow shards get no melee flat scaling. Just seems like it takes up too much space for not that much gain. If you can fit it cool but I think I would rather spec harvest rip, blood, maybe aura of decay or deathseal

[little wigeon]

What does rip blood do. The spell dmg and mana is direct cast

[formal sparrow]

can flay cast chaos bolt and chaos bolt then cast rip blood lol

[molten bramble]

rip blood is for ward gen

[formal sparrow]

like a spell loop ala poe

[abstract summit]

capped

[vivid ruin]

Why harvest or rip blood? Both seem meh.

[little wigeon]

Ah ward gen hmm

[formal sparrow]

since theres nodes for flay to cast cb then cb has a node to cast rip

[molten bramble]

Harvest would be spec'd if you want go for the greater harvests with axe

not sure the math on that

but seems like it might be good

[abstract summit]

harvest at least gets flat from dex, indirect rip blood gets kinda nothing from flay (and the procs are capped)

[molten bramble]

rip blood is not for dmg

[abstract summit]

then

[molten bramble]

I am telling you now they screwed up by making rip blood aoe and allowing all those orbs to come back

[plush creek]

harvest also gets a decent more multi from flay

[abstract summit]

ye i mean im operating under the assumption that between blood eruptions and harvests and piercing marrows (if iwant it to pierce) and CBs i wont need more AOE lol

[molten bramble]

I think spec'ing rip blood will be 10k ward mapping

[little wigeon]

👀

[molten bramble]

they made it aoe

[little wigeon]

Surely can't be lol but hey will see

[weak inlet]

Yall think I can finally replace dread shade with abom? ESP since I saw that you can get an upgrade to prevent it from constantly munching the rest of the army

And it even has something to buff them?

[abstract summit]

from 2 procs a second?

[plush creek]

it'll be a lot of ward

[molten bramble]

each proc is worth 5-10 depending upon density

unless they accounted for that it think rip blood makes us way to tanky

[plush creek]

and the procs from the boots

[abstract summit]

ye if you are running the boots that's a different story

i agree you oly spec marrow if you are mourning

[molten bramble]

You probably run mourning anyways

those boots are broken

I just hate having to solve res

[plush creek]

boots are like 70 flat, rip blood procs, and kinda enable pale ox

[abstract summit]

ye same lol. and then you probably not gonna null portent with them either, so go for the new primordial unique chest

[molten bramble]

wall of nothing might be a contender

[abstract summit]

i kinda feel like imma need a lot of ward gen cause i dont have anything else besides ward and dodge 😄

[vivid ruin]

Easy to get some endurance, armor and leech with death seal to be an absolute tank.

espec now seal doesnt kill ward.

[plush creek]

will the node that makes dots bypass ward and unspecced aod prevent leech from capping?

[molten bramble]

Core of the mountain is also a good choice

with all those flat stats

[abstract summit]

if it comes to that sure, but i wanna see if giving up leech for hollow lich with delayed damage and a fton of ward is tenable

cause if it is, that's a lotta damage

[vivid ruin]

Do they beat exalter amror? How good is 4 more flay?

[plush creek]

seal only has like 30% uptime now doesn't it?

[abstract summit]

ye kinda

who needs defensives when you one tap the screen 👀

[weak inlet]

When are these updates actually gonna be here? With the season I assumev

[little wigeon]

That's why I'm against it. I'd rather just have it on my bar and use it unspecced for emergency

[plush creek]

oh, that's actually super busted isn't it

[little wigeon]

Yea it retains all the def and delayed dmg lol

Last 3sec instead of 4 but oh well

[molten bramble]

You can slam +4 flay on all the uniques I listed

[plush creek]

well I guess it doesn't stop one shots, and the inability to heal is pretty awkward

but if you're playing a lowlife build it's literally just like 50% less damage taken for 3 seconds isn't it

[little wigeon]

I was leaning toward null portent for the hp line, phys res line (mourningfrost), and the DR is a bonus if I want it

[old hull]

No

[formal sparrow]

does wings of argentus work with flay? if i turn it into cold i dont see it saying it changes the skills tag to cold

also im first time acolyte so struggling, are armors like exsanguinous bait for acolyte since its already easy to get to low hp

cuz rn im edging towards core of the mountain instead or a good exalted

[little wigeon]

If you turn it cold yes

[plush creek]

exsang is good if you go fully into the low life nodes, you're also going to want to look at the boots "last steps of the living" and the experimental affix on gloves

[formal sparrow]

are you sure ? it doesnt show on the planner

look

doesnt talk about changing the tag

chaos bolt does in comparison

[little wigeon]

It should still change the tag. Guess won't know till we are in game to see. Doesn't sound right

[formal sparrow]

i have the node to equip 2 1h weps

and it doesnt let me equip that shit

[old hull]

None of the planners are fully functional yet

[formal sparrow]

just giving me catalysts etc option

[old hull]

the tool creators didn't get anything to work with until today, so they don't have a polished product immediately after patch notes like usual

[formal sparrow]

hmkay

also is it possible to dual wield 2 of the same unique daggers

traitors tongue would end up being +8 to flay from just the item

[little wigeon]

Yes

[formal sparrow]

dayum

the only thing for me is that the harbinger axe with cold pen would be potentially better than more skill levels but idk

i fail to understand how you handle mana cost of skills etc when using the butchers crown

[harsh warren]

need a zero cost generator

or a life cost skill like marrow shards

[little wigeon]

Inserts harvest lol

It could still work with flay if you get enough mana regen to offset the cost

Pair it with the lightning res chest for mana regen idk

[formal sparrow]

the build im trying to make is almost finished but boy ive never felt this non confident lmao

this class so complicated

[harsh warren]

I'm so stoked to go whole hog into bleed AoD

[formal sparrow]

also julras ring tech with flay

sounds interesting

3x the stats for 4s after using movement but flay is a movement skill

so 3x for 33% of the time is more or less just like a 33% increase of modifiers on it

[autumn bough]

what do u not understand?

[formal sparrow]

if i plan on being low life (aka 35% and under) which of the two shoudl i go for? death seal or that 2 pointer

[autumn bough]

you stack enough regen to gain mana on hit to cover

[formal sparrow]

so u can just use other sources of mana regen that arent just natural mana regen

hmkay

[autumn bough]

the helmet gives you that

[dark inlet]

there might be some weird and funny Mana Guide proc built with it actually (for Mage ofc), since with the Null nodes you can get enormous % Increased Mana Regen

otherwise what other people have said, life cost skills, mana-positive skills, that sort of thing

[autumn bough]

1 mana on hit per 12% regen

[formal sparrow]

ah its per 12% makes more sense

i was considering using it

but i thought it was weak

makes more sense now

its kinda between that helm and the debuff immune helm for my build so far, hopefully they arent impossibly hard to get

[formal sparrow]

and this??

[little wigeon]

I'm going for the passive. Death seal has a cooldown

[formal sparrow]

thats fair

[coarse dew]

anyone know whether skeleton rogues scales from int or dex or both?
how about the shurikens cast by rogues?

[dark inlet]

the 2-pointer seems more consistent, esp. with Death Seal getting a longer cooldown, but I haven't had a chance to really play with them ofc since patch hasn't launched, so in practice it could feel different

[coarse dew]

should be int right

[little wigeon]

Since I'm dex/int stacking, going bone barbute and the necrotic res should fill my ward to 50% of my hp np

[coarse dew]

gonna be my first time playing minion so I'm hella confused how inherited abilities deal with scaling

[formal sparrow]

how do yall see being able to mana stack for the flay nodes btw? it seems hard to mix and match everything

[coarse dew]

the parent skill is scaled by int,
the summoned minion is scaled by none,
the inherited skill is scaled by dex

???

[molten bramble]

Anyone know if primal glove skill levels apply to slammed affixes?

And how do they interact with +1 skill levels

[dark inlet]

haven't given it huge thought yet, waiting for planner update to really theorycraft personally. does seem like there will have to be some tradeoffs, which is good

[formal sparrow]

i kinda wanted to use it but now im realizing maybe im just baiting myself

[abstract summit]

Ye Im oscillating between barbute and seed

[molten bramble]

max roll already has planner update

[formal sparrow]

tho this can potentially offset the lack of dexs flat damage if you scale mana

[vivid ruin]

Do we know how architects of astral blood works? If used with the node that locks our ward to 50% of health, does the armor triple the amount of ward we can have?

[abstract summit]

I would assume whichever is lower, i.e. corrupted form

[formal sparrow]

what relic are yall wanting to go for

[vivid ruin]

Why wouldnt architects increase the limit set by corrupted form?

[abstract summit]

Why would it

[vivid ruin]

That makes sense from a flavour perspective. Otherwise what is the ward limit extension lines point on the armor?

What builds hit the ward cap?

[formal sparrow]

maybe the solution is scaling dex int and mana (like sealed affixes on exalted rings or something)

[abstract summit]

You have two limits, one lower, one higher . You just never reach the higher number

[vivid ruin]

The term "ward limit" doesnt seem to have a clear definition.

If limit refers to what corrupted form does, the astral armor should interact with it shouldnt it?

[abstract summit]

ye but both explicitly says "of maximum health", so dont think they interact with each other

[formal sparrow]

also this means every time i hit something with flay it will shoot 1-10000 chaos bolts per 100 mana? with no cd or care for current mana?

[abstract summit]

apart from corrupted form increaseing your max hp

[vivid ruin]

Yea, right. Maybe architects line is a draw back line.

I was reading it differently.

as "added ward limit". As opposed to a drawback to its own effect.

[abstract summit]

wording is def not uniform ye 🙂 guessing at some point they will align it

[vivid ruin]

Yep, confused the fook out of me.

[abstract summit]

i would assume they didnt introduce two different variations of the same effect immediately, but maybe lol

[vivid ruin]

A lot of the new stuff this season has more ambiguous wording then usual.

Honestly, I thought the armor was made to interact with the passive.

Sad tho.

[coarse dew]

what other new uniques are there? I've only seen this one for non primos

[formal sparrow]

i think only the new primos

wtf does the line mean legendary affixes????

is it saying your +4 is gonna be a +6

is that pmuch it

[coarse dew]

yep, but only on slammed stats

or ww

[formal sparrow]

slammed stats? ww?

[coarse dew]

the red text in legendary items

[molten bramble]

I think it works on affixes too

like nihils

etc

[coarse dew]

rounding need to ask devs tho

[molten bramble]

traitors turns into +6

[coarse dew]

it's hard to think what build would benefit from this

[formal sparrow]

ah so if you turn an exsanguineous into idk +4 holy symbol

itd be +6

hmkay

[formal sparrow]

i can imagine rogues to use that shit more

[dark inlet]

oh, it does? nice. I usually use LETools so I didn't bother checking maxroll

[molten bramble]

If you look at all the multipliers on flay you can maybe juice a bunch of dmg from points

[formal sparrow]

idk if its really wortth a whole ass primordial unique on the glove slot for 2 more levels on it tho lol

[molten bramble]

but alot of the damage of flay comes from CB which has its own tree

[formal sparrow]

tho didnt they talk about having primordial affixes on primordial uniques or some shit

like t8

[molten bramble]

It is not just 2 level (correct me if I am wrong) but it applies to all lengendary affixes meaning not just slammed + skills

[dark inlet]

definitely not lol

[formal sparrow]

hard to decide ngl

[dark inlet]

primordial is going to be such a competitive "slot"

[molten bramble]

nhilus would give +1 traitors +2 chest +2 I think gloves could be an extra 5 levels

[formal sparrow]

could be an equal level up for flay but one gives crit other gives flat dex

[unreal hill]

aura of decay, blood font, cleaver solution armor stacker.
This feels jank but I like jank.

[strange kiln]

I have to say, I'm very disappointed that all we are basically getting is a rework of the already best necro minion.

[formal sparrow]

also use the new belt if ur doign that 100%

[molten bramble]

I will say looking at a planner without traitors crit cap is hard

[formal sparrow]

@unreal hill

jank away to high heavens

[molten bramble]

why would they have something that makes you take MORE dmg

[unreal hill]

That would work, thoughts on blossom instead for tankiness? Cause you can get 20% less phys damage taken with aura of decay.

[formal sparrow]

oh i was just saying

strenght stack

idk if something is better just an option if ur getting 200 strenght or something lol

[unreal hill]

You're good lol, I'm exploring thoughts if that makes sense.

[formal sparrow]

100 strenght belt gives 40% aspd

+the rest

[formal sparrow]

just dodge xd

[unreal hill]

👀 this is gonna be spicy with cleaver solution and some other source of bleed.

[formal sparrow]

i thgink its crazy even with 50 int ngl

[harsh warren]

yea, the convert there to phys reduction will be much more spicy than reducing poison res

[unreal hill]

can enemy res drop into the negatives with it tho, it's not penetration

[formal sparrow]

im turning it to cold for my build but yea

would make sense to me rocket

[obtuse quest]

Follow by what the summon minion skill says, Eg: Summon skeleton says it scales by int, so int.

[odd spire]

Yes, different mechanics that stack. Confirmed it a season or two ago with my poison minion build

[unreal hill]

this heals you right, and is boosted by increased healing effectiveness?

[unreal hill]

awesome, thanks for the confirmation!

[obtuse quest]

Yes, since you can do that to yourself as well, and resistance rules work the same for everyone.

[obtuse quest]

Yes.

[unreal hill]

thanks

[obtuse quest]

This also means with enough heal effectiveness that thing could heal you to full automatically.

(Wait that node didn't get changed? It's like the best node in old AoD)

[odd spire]

It does heal you, it messed with my ward/ low life build. I don't know about the healing effectiveness

[obtuse quest]

Can't do that, T8 affixes are always sealed.

[formal sparrow]

hm ok

i think i actually managed to cook chat 👀

either that or its complete garbo

sucks i cant put the 2 weapons in the planner tho

does this work with the flay auto casts? or is it onloy manual casts

[abstract summit]

ye im jsut waitig for the LE tools guy so at least summarizing the basic stats doesnt need to be done manually lol

would err on the side of "no" cause you are not casting Chaos Bolts technically

[obtuse quest]

Generally it's no. It didn't work with fissure's CB procs.

[unreal hill]

With decaying form and blossom which takes priority?
Does the passive tree half of DoT taken as poison occur first? Then blossom converts the poison to phys?

[formal sparrow]

does this turn into cold res shred?

[vivid ruin]

Which primord you scalliwags thinking?

[obtuse quest]

No double converts, most likely decay takes piority.

[harsh warren]

Bleed gloves

[unreal hill]

thanks!

[obtuse quest]

It might? But the text doesn't specify so no one knows for sure.

[formal sparrow]

dang

[obtuse quest]

That's more of a "Test to find out" thing

[formal sparrow]

i think ive managed to make something nice AND harvest is doing 6900 dmg

[harsh warren]

Converts don’t \usually\ also convert all the related ailments or skill nodes as well

[formal sparrow]

😉 😉 xdddd

anyone wanna flame me ? https://maxroll.gg/last-epoch/planner/986em0qn

[obtuse quest]

That's why they generally state it in the convert node if they do-

[harsh warren]

Gonna be trying one of the AoD converts? I remember you previously lamenting the skill’s damage ability

[obtuse quest]

It went from "Shite" to "mid", so it at least fits a role now.

[harsh warren]

Eyyyyy

[obtuse quest]

(The loss of poison bolts hurts my soul a bit though, that's like the 2nd best part of it )

Anyway now that death seal doesn't eat ward, hybrid lich is realistic, might go vessel+shattered this time

The problem is that I'm forced to use the primal ring-

[harsh warren]

Toss seed hat for triple health pool shenanigans

[obtuse quest]

But my mana-
Wait if I int stack I can use lightning meteor's helm...

Wait no it's mage locked

L

[molten bramble]

Is this Wraithbound affix new? +60 melee necrotic +40 Spell Necrotic?

[obtuse quest]

Seems new? Where do you find it

[molten bramble]

Its on the max roll build planner

seems bis slam for CB flay

[obtuse quest]

Oh it's a new dagger affix

[formal sparrow]

anyone gave a look maybe?

[molten bramble]

It also works with axe

[obtuse quest]

I wish maxroll's planner is easier to use jesus

Looks like BiS for hybrid setups, but not as good for those wanting to focus on one or the other. (All melee or all spell)

[formal sparrow]

was that at me?

[obtuse quest]

No I was talking about the wraithbound affix

[coarse dew]

keep in mind the explode is delayed, so there will not be chains like in poe1/2

I don't even think enemies killed by explode can explode

[molten bramble]

Anyone know what the "exposed flesh" debuff reduces cold and armor by?

[abstract summit]

hoollly dealing with mourningfrost is a pita lol

[coarse dew]

might do flay with this for my second build

[obtuse quest]

Unless maxroll has it, no.

[coarse dew]

and the blood explosion is a hit, so there is 2 chain at least

[obtuse quest]

Nvm, tunklabs has it.

Wait it has no armour written lmao

EHG pls fix

[coarse dew]

classic LE

[unreal hill]

guys I'm starting to think cleaver solution armor stacker lich might be viable. Or at least tanky.

[coarse dew]

yep, defensive layers? yes.

gonna just continue hc legacy

[unreal hill]

what's the shield you're using?

[obtuse quest]

Looks like face of mountain

[coarse dew]

face

[unreal hill]

thanks

[obtuse quest]

Also lmao t8 leech is DOUBLE of t7

I see why hollow lich got slapped a bit

[coarse dew]

@unreal hill https://maxroll.gg/last-epoch/planner/f66fr0qb if you want to see my theorycraft. 100% starting this

[unreal hill]

I'm starting to get really hyped for s3.

[unreal hill]

thanks!

[coarse dew]

ping me back if you see room for obvious improvement

I'm expecting face tanking uber levels of tank, and not taking forever to kill it. depends on strength of trex

on hc

[unreal hill]

maybe not improvement, but I was thinking of going aura of decay into phys with this instead of tyrants skull.
Then stacking armor and endurance w/ anchor. And leaning more into Dot/bleed over the dino minion.

[abstract summit]

wait what got slapped

[molten bramble]

I am thinking of just going with flay boots instead and using the new Hybrid necrotic flat rolls on weapons

[obtuse quest]

Hollow lich was : Disable leech, convert it into 10% generic inc damage per 1% leech you have..
It's now 3% generic inc damage for each 1% instead, up to 2 points.

[vivid ruin]

Mana stacking seems very strong w flay

[abstract summit]

ah the rework thought they already nerfed the new one lol

[coarse dew]

is aura of decay viable tho

[vivid ruin]

Like.. mana > pen in most slots.

[obtuse quest]

Now actually usable as a support skill, instead of mostly self-sabotaging.

[abstract summit]

so ye it's 6% per but we also got a LOT of leech rate for free kinda

[coarse dew]

letools take my energy

[obtuse quest]

Wait

[coarse dew]

maxroll planner is so shit

[obtuse quest]

Scornful now keeps "while leeching" instead of hollow lich disabling it altogether

LMAO

[abstract summit]

ye that would be kinda the alternative but i want to run the math for the mourning setup first to see how much damage it actually would be

[obtuse quest]

huge buff

[unreal hill]

I was planning on using aura of decay for increased tankiness.
you can convert this node to phys for ex.

[coarse dew]

also I would assume the node that makes leeches "drain" health from nearby enemy still heals you?

[abstract summit]

i dont think you are running mourningfrost anyway before double red rings and perfect idols lol

[obtuse quest]

Most likey by the wording, but we aren't sure.

[molten bramble]

You def run it early for damage

[unreal hill]

no, iirc, because the node before removes lifeleech

[molten bramble]

it is a great transition piece of gear to juice damage before you get T7 slams and such

[obtuse quest]

The issue is that the wording says "drains"

So no one knows for sure if the drain would still 'heal' you.

[molten bramble]

I shouldn't because it says instead

[unreal hill]

I mean sure, but I would think the "Instead of healing" would be the key word here.
But Ig it can be interpreted that way.

[molten bramble]

I think it was designed to play a 1 hp ward build

[unreal hill]

i could be wrong for sure

[molten bramble]

but 1 hp ward kinda sucks on lich as you miss out on reaper form

[abstract summit]

guilty

but ye that was my impression as well

[obtuse quest]

Rip blood technically still heals you since that's not leech-

If you're going that route

[abstract summit]

i mean sure but if you pick hollow lich you are also picking literally every drain life nodes under the sun lol

[obtuse quest]

It's the same old tech that's been done since hollow lich existed.

[coarse dew]

i didn't play coal last season, do you know whether it's toned down?

[obtuse quest]

Warlock can still run hybrid relatively well with hollow lich

[unreal hill]

asking in the ask the devs channel to confirm since we'd all benefit from knowing

[coarse dew]

with the lich changes

[obtuse quest]

They fixed the drain life area moving bug

Single cast setups in shambles.

(otherwise probably still works well, just need a playstyle tweak)

[left whale]

Close enough, welcome back attribute stacker

[unreal hill]

also I think aura of decay is necessary for bleed builds cause you can convert this to phys as well.

[obtuse quest]

If it converts this, then absolutely useful as a support skill

[molten bramble]

Anyone else thinking that rip blood being aoe is going to be broken ward gen?

[left whale]

Does it work with conversion?

[obtuse quest]

It's been kinda that way for a while if you were willing to mass cast it.

[unreal hill]

we'd have to ask the devs or wait for release to be sure, but the conversion does say all instances of poison are changed to phys.
etc.

[obtuse quest]

Generally in other skill's converts, not all " shred X res" nodes got converted, so asking is better.

(Although my bet's on yes)

[molten bramble]

It was crazy ward gen on 1 target now its 5x or more in density.

[abstract summit]

okay so i got to kinda 150ish dex and 600ish mana with mourning while also not being complete grief in the other departments

[molten bramble]

yeah but your flat dmg profile is like half necrotic and half cold

[obtuse quest]

Isn't wacsa doing cold convert anyway

So it will be mostly cold

[abstract summit]

ye everything is cold which can be cold

only necro is on CB basically

[molten bramble]

necrotic hybird slams are still probably better

[coarse dew]

you're doing cold flay?

[molten bramble]

rather than flat melee cold

[obtuse quest]

I'm probably trying cold flay as well

[odd spire]

If it does convert, which i think it will given the wording of the convert you will have the same problem that i did last season, easy 80+ int but you will need to stay close to uber aberoth to keep him in the AoE.

[abstract summit]

depends. i just want to get a feel for the relative DPS coming from the melee skills vs the spells, so then we can see which is worth optimizing more

but also, por que no los dos lol

[coarse dew]

flay already gains +2 flat per dex isn't it? seems like another +1 from mourning isn't good enough to justify the buildaround

[molten bramble]

I think most of the damage is going to come from CB

[abstract summit]

that's just partially why we are building that, it's also 150 flat for CB and marrowshard procs

[molten bramble]

so Mourning frost will juice cb more

[coarse dew]

anyway, I changed my mind and not gonna start with flay. gonna yoink the most interesting build week 1 or 2

[abstract summit]

aight now comes the hard part, DPS calc for 4 skills with no working planner kek

see you in 3 days

[coarse dew]

letools update soon tm

it's still 5 days

[coarse dew]

random bullshit wardloop vibes

[abstract summit]

i have the formulas at least from last year's XD

[obtuse quest]

Wait

Flay's bleed spread can be converted

oh my lord

[dark inlet]

Got curious, did math. The Butcher's Crown beats passive mana regen at Increased Mana Regen = (1200/13)% or ~92.31%, assuming you reliably hit at least twice per second, which shouldn't be an issue with auto-frenzy and 60% to 112% increased Frenzy effect.

[abstract summit]

ye tbh i will prob start frostbite flay and lowkey expecting to never switch over to hit 😄

[coarse dew]

cold flicker

[obtuse quest]

Now, the funny question would be:
If flay is converted to only cast eruption, does the recast nodes let it recast eruption?

[coarse dew]

from a coding perspective, why wouldn't it. but LE is LE

[obtuse quest]

#👨┃ask-the-devs-not-support-no-bugs message

[odd spire]

are you allowed to have multiple T8's on a build or only 1?

[molten bramble]

1

[obtuse quest]

Leech plans in shambles.

[odd spire]

and is it 1 primordial unique or 1 t8? or can you have one of both?

[obtuse quest]

One or ther other, only one primordial item.

[odd spire]

ooof, one of each would be amazing

[obtuse quest]

Would be way too immensely broken lmao

[odd spire]

and???? 😄

[obtuse quest]

They probably don't want a repeat of last season lmao

[coarse dew]

or the last

or the last one before that

or the last one before that

[obtuse quest]

I think S2 did way more damage than the others tbh

Exalted printing lmao

[molten bramble]

I am assuming Flay used with CB Maxed Projectiles still costs 2 mana?

[obtuse quest]

Since flay casts a single CB projectile per proc instead of casting CB straight up, most likely.

[molten bramble]

What about with chains of the betrayer?

[obtuse quest]

I got no clue tbh, although it will most likely still counts as one projectile and not get any bonuses.

[abstract summit]

Mike said it's one projectile, so nothing to combine BUT if you get a repeat those two could combine

[twilit flume]

https://maxroll.gg/last-epoch/planner/f46az0gz physical ghostflame going to be very a nice

[abstract summit]

im assuming 1 projectile still gets 50% more damage from chains but who knows

[molten bramble]

So with 1200 mana I combine 12?

[obtuse quest]

#👨┃ask-the-devs-not-support-no-bugs message
Alright new plan. I smell cooking

[forest mica]

👀 Nice to meet Kzb again after 1.0 and ask you questions about necromancer

[abstract summit]

no, you get 12 individual bolts

[obtuse quest]

👋

[abstract summit]

but if you spec repeat in CB your best case scenario is 12x2 combined bolts

[molten bramble]

but do they combine with chains of the betrayer

[abstract summit]

i dont know how else to say no lol

[obtuse quest]

Probably no.

This is a dev question or testing question for sure

[abstract summit]

english aint my native language so prob better off to search for chains in the ask the devs channel and read what Mike said, but tldr is no, they dont combine

[obtuse quest]

#👨┃ask-the-devs-not-support-no-bugs message

#👨┃ask-the-devs-not-support-no-bugs message

TLDR:No

It effectively ignores chains of the betrayer.

[abstract summit]

go further, Mike had an addendum (about the repeats)

but it's a nothingburger anyway

[molten bramble]

I wish we had more skill specs flay just procs too much but I think the best combo is going to be flay, CB, reaper form, then blood rip (if OP ward gen) and probably bone curse

looking at harvest but bone curse just seems better we already have a crap ton of hits

[dreamy elm]

I want lich next season is flay wroth building around?

[obtuse quest]

Expected to be broken as hell.

[dreamy elm]

I havent played lich so i figured the rework is a good opportunity to do so

[abstract summit]

base numbers look kinda good before skills apply lol

[unreal hill]

I'm ready to be shamed.
I did it again.

[obtuse quest]

Why are you doing this

Could have just went str+ health

[grim rune]

So for chaos bolt mana spam it’s better to go one big chaos bolt in tree

If u wanna flay

[obtuse quest]

Wouldn't do anything, Flay CB procs effectively ignore the big bolt node.

[grim rune]

I thought they only ignore small ones

If chaos bolt from flay scales sity chaos bolt tree but doesn’t duplicate small bolts

It would mean the big bolt would work tho

[obtuse quest]

Flay procs CB on a single projectile basis, not a cast of CB.
So it will summon a single CB projectile no matter what.

Since Big bolt takes any casts and converts it to a big bolt with buffs tied to it's projectile count, and Flay would cast a single cb with 1 projectile count.

Which means the node gives 0 buffs.

[grim rune]

Then it’s totally meh

[obtuse quest]

Well, Flay can proc MULTIPLE CB projetiles per cast, but big bolt still doesn't merge it since it's not a cast of CB.

[grim rune]

Well u still get more “casts” if u manually cast cb

I see it opens door for something but sad it doesn’t scale with big bolt 🙁

[abstract summit]

how do you calculate base attack rate of DW ing? average of the two weapons?

[obtuse quest]

Average, then add att speed.

[vivid ruin]

How much mana can we burn through with flay while mana stacking you reckon? I wonder if strand of souls might be a vibe.

[abstract summit]

me thinks 500-700 is realisticish if you dont want to neglect your other stats either

it can be max mana worth more than crit multi in which case this could be a lot higher, but kinda doubt

[vivid ruin]

Oh getting mana is fine, yea, cos idol slots are weak.

I'm wondering how much mana we could spend per second.

[abstract summit]

you are basically only spending with flay

[vivid ruin]

chaos bolt costs mana too yea?

[molten bramble]

You are also going to get 50% more mana in combat from axe

[vivid ruin]

though I guess 10 bolts is just 20 mana

[abstract summit]

im about to calc it's attack rate so whatever I get times 10 😄

i mean if you want to spend mana on it sure, but otherwise you spec the 2 mana return. I guess that still spends it tho, so you are right

[vivid ruin]

That was mty thoughts, mana return, stack mana with strand of souls for ward gen.

Rip blood might be good for ward while clearing, but useless vs a boss.

Struggling to find space for cold pen but I think mana idols might just do more damage than pen idols.

Need to toss em into a spreadsheet though.

[molten bramble]

You are probably better off dropping cold pen and just running necrotic pen

[vivid ruin]

? As in dropping cold entirely? Lose out on boots though.

[abstract summit]

im about 25% done 😄

[molten bramble]

you can still run boots for flat cold

[vivid ruin]

Yea, but necrotic pen is low yield.

[molten bramble]

but with the new affix its alot of necro dmg and you have 160% increase on axe

[vivid ruin]

I guess one option would be to imprint T7 necrotic melle D on weps and pen yea

[molten bramble]

Theres a new affix gives 60 necrotic melee flat and 40 necrotic spell flat for 1 T7

[abstract summit]

what's flay's base flat?

[vivid ruin]

2 per dex.

[abstract summit]

i mean that's the scaling but doesnt it have some baseline like most skills?

[coarse dew]

Wait letools

Wasca, you have the numbers, but how do you know how much is enough?

[vivid ruin]

8

[molten bramble]

probably like 5-20

most are usually in that range

[vivid ruin]

Base is 8.

Well, 8dps on new char in planner

[abstract summit]

does your new char have 1 dex?

[vivid ruin]

I missed this. Cold less good then.Better off going necrotic conversion and not using the boots for sure.

[obtuse quest]

Harvest has 7 dps with a 1.467 use speed and 2 flat.

[vivid ruin]

Indeed. 6.

[obtuse quest]

It might just be like 4 base or something.

[abstract summit]

i know how much dam I did last season on ES, so if number less im unhappy 😄

ye that's the follow up, what's flay's speed lol

[obtuse quest]

Rip blood has 34 per second with a known base of 15 per 1.467 use speed.

[molten bramble]

I think top end you still use cold boots. Just necro conversion.

[abstract summit]

aight lets work with harvest for now i guess

[vivid ruin]

Maybe. Mountain boots are also healthy if they get our endurance near 50% hp.

[molten bramble]

I think you can give up some dmg by not using mourning frost and get alot more defense for not that much top end dmg

dealing with the resists is a pain

[pallid plume]

Okay so from quick check of patch notes. Boom mages might be solid

All the extra DR means mass minions seems more assesible. And some passives got changed like instead of 10% to gain ward on minion deaths it's now 10% chance per passive

[obtuse quest]

Pretty much: Army minion setups are better, but still can't beat solo big minions.

[molten bramble]

Or you could use no shred but rely on the 40% pen from primordial dagger

[vivid ruin]

Can't. I think the primordial relic will be best w mana stacking.

mana/life idols

[twilit flume]

https://maxroll.gg/last-epoch/planner/f46az0gz

[abstract summit]

aight, one skill done
end game mourning setup entirely not focused on the melee portion, this is just the melee hit no procs or blood eruption, obviously super not optimized, ballpark numbers, yadda yadda you get the gist

feel like 255k DPS vs lvl100 just from melee flay when we are focusing on the spells is kinda not bad

but also it kinda shows what you could tell by simply looking at the damage effectiveness, it's not a main melee pumper skill on its own

[vivid ruin]

Great work.

That was my thought with flay. Raw numbers are high but it doesnt hit enough to have good enough ST DPS on its own so the reliance needs to be on multihitting spells.

[abstract summit]

ye i think we will end up in the millions at the end based on this but lets continue lol

found some more dam XD
also procced specced harvest DPS is basically the same as flay

unfortunate we are capped at 3 per sec

[molten bramble]

That seems strange. Are there that many modifiers in harvest to outscale the difference in added dmg effectiveness between the two skills? Flay is at 200% and harvest is 70%

harvest does get double dmg on cursed though

[abstract summit]

oh wait ye wrong effectiveness

but ye harvest has taht node, and a giga crit multi

[obtuse quest]

Harvest should have 100% eff now, doubled if cursed.

[abstract summit]

i did assume cursed

cause CB will bone curse for us

where do you ge the effectiveness doubling tho

it's just 52% more damage no?

[molten bramble]

It says it on the skill?

deals double dmg to cursed?

[abstract summit]

lol nm

[obtuse quest]

Yeah it has TWO cursed multipliers basically

[abstract summit]

then ye the DPS is as above, flay ballpark numbers when everything is said and done

[magic jacinth]

Does anyone know if the new Flay chaos bolt node use Chaos Bolts from the Chaos Bolts tree meaning Flay triggers Chaos Bolts which triggers Harvest is a possibility?

[obtuse quest]

Notice it doesn't say cast.

[molten bramble]

yes it should trigger harvest

and rip blood

[obtuse quest]

Burt it does trigger harvest and rip blood

[molten bramble]

and bone curse horray its basically cthonic fissure but melee

[magic jacinth]

I know it won't cast chaos bolts, but does it trigger the effects bolts get from the skill tree?

[obtuse quest]

Yes.

[magic jacinth]

please be true

[magic jacinth]

awesome thank you!

[molten bramble]

I just need to know what is more dmg. Harvest or bone curse to spec.

[magic jacinth]

I'm building a "Righteous fire Bleed flicker Flay cursebot"

[abstract summit]

i mean i can run the numbers later on my exact same setup for curse

but i need all other hits calcd first

[molten bramble]

yeah issue it hard to just calc since bone curse does provide armor shred

[abstract summit]

im almost certain tho bone curse is more dam before end game mourning frost full dex stacking lol

i assume like an average amount of shred in my calcs, but we can tack on like an extra 10-15% moreish to simulate more stacks

[vivid ruin]

Dex stacking might not even best highest D end game. It competes with mana stacking to some degree. I started on cold dex stacking and i've moved off now. I'm focusing on end game ST damage with decent survivability layers.

I'm looking at pure mana stacking now and it might be better tbh. Not needing T7 dex anywhere is nice.

Although mountain boots hurt when dex is lost.

[obtuse quest]

We're assuming a spell setup right?

Cause the mana stack only boosts spells.

[vivid ruin]

I'm looking at mana stacking for spells now yea.

[molten bramble]

I think we are going to realize that 90% of the dmg is in these juiced CB's

[vivid ruin]

Dex stacking only benfits damage on the melee strike, which doesnt multihit single targets.

[vivid ruin]

Exactly.

[molten bramble]

and we either stack dex to scale through mourning frost

[vivid ruin]

So i'm thinking it might be encrotic mana stakcing.

[molten bramble]

or start stacking more int

and mana

[vivid ruin]

I started as dex. Didnt love it. Trying pure mana now.

It takes lots of t7 affixes to get dex near 100. Outside of perfect gear.

[molten bramble]

The new weap affixes are fire for spell dmg conversion though

[vivid ruin]

Yea, it's insane.

enough to make me consider dual wielding them and dropping the dagger

[molten bramble]

attack speed also might be an insane scaler

[vivid ruin]

Have to solve the crit elsewhere but losing +4 skills is surprisingly painless.

[vivid ruin]

I have attack speed in every slot I can find it except the weapon imprints. I'm even considering the dumb flay boots for the speed.

[slim mason]

melee atk speed is king for flay

more flay moar blooed for the blood god

[molten bramble]

do we know if the axe 50% melee dmg to spell stacks if you use 2?

[vivid ruin]

No idea. But everything else in tihs game appears to stack on dual wielding so why not?

Also. Double bubble on mana.

[abstract summit]

i mean we dont know that until I ran numbers on a dex stacking setup tho and see how the melee portions stack up against chaos bolt and mourningfrosted marrow

[abstract summit]

no

[vivid ruin]

I agree.

[vivid ruin]

Is that no we dont know or we know the answer is no?

And does the mana buff workx2 with dual wielding?

[abstract summit]

latter according to the designer of the unique

basically only the crit chance stacks if i remember correctly

[vivid ruin]

Sadge. Fair enough. Well, I didnt want to drop the dagger anyway, for sentimental reasons.

Dagger can stay

[abstract summit]

yeeeee

I guess to the surprise of nobody you want to focus on CB 😄

~3x of my flay DPS with no attack speed rolls on gear and at 620 mana

[molten bramble]

not to mention it scales really well with mana because you get more casts and a growing more% multi

[fallen rose]

Here’s the full image which shows the dual wield info on the axe

Idk how to link a message without replying to it. Sorry heavy 🙁

[coarse dew]

How much was your es? Also no way I'm calculating 4 kinds of minions scaling differently

[abstract summit]

with this planner https://maxroll.gg/last-epoch/planner/9i6k40q1

which is again very much not focusing on atk speed and only moderately on mana

[molten bramble]

You probably cannot use that chest with reaper form

[abstract summit]

hmm

[molten bramble]

you are going to decay and get knocked out if you have even a little down time

[abstract summit]

fair

i was mostly focusing on figuring out offenses tbh lol

[molten bramble]

I think it might be correct to move off mourning frost and stack attack speed and mana

I know it is alot of flat but you make up for it with extra casts

[abstract summit]

im thinking both as the ultimate goal, but ye deffo not day1 or week1 even

[molten bramble]

for sure day one I am using mourning frosts

they add so much dmg early on

[abstract summit]

attribute and mana rolls dont compete too much

but ye it messes with your idols for sure

what im going to absolutely hate in this build is that we are going to have breakpoints

[vivid ruin]

Planners missing various passive pts btw

reapers malice dex gets missed for example.

[abstract summit]

ye that's why im tallying everything manually

big fun

marrow shard also same ballpark as flay and harvest
tbh it's all kinda balanced except the chaos bolt procs lol

[molten bramble]

I think they do compete helm glove chest are all spots where good mana rolls are and you need to choose between T7 mana or T7 Stat

[vivid ruin]

How many marrow shard projectiles are there?

I'd have thought for ST they'd fall outscale harvest

[abstract summit]

i only count single target, that's one hit no?

[vivid ruin]

Doesn't marrow shards shoot like 5 projectiles per cast?

[abstract summit]

ehrm

with the initial cast?

[vivid ruin]

Been awhile since I cast the motherfucker but I thought it was multiple projectiles per cast/proc

[abstract summit]

tbh i never played with the skill first thing i take off my bar lol

[vivid ruin]

haha same

lemme open epoch

[obtuse quest]

Primary cast is a single piercing projectile

[vivid ruin]

how many projs though?

[vivid ruin]

Cos removing pierce they all hit the same target

Oh.

[obtuse quest]

Can be made to shatter on hit but lose piercing, the shatter is a general cone/circle AoE.

[vivid ruin]

1. Why isn't it called marrow shard then?

So 1 shard, multiple proj off the splinters only?

[obtuse quest]

The visuals is like 6 bone shards lmao

[vivid ruin]

that sux

[obtuse quest]

Splinters isn't even counted as a projectile, just an AoE.

[abstract summit]

so ye it has giga, and i mean giga multis but all the flat is from mourning. harvest gets a ton from dex scaling on top, so it kinda equals out at the end

[vivid ruin]

So marrow shards

I'm dropping dex scaling atm.

Mediocre bang for buck it seems.

Gonna stack some mana and int and see wsup

but yea, 1 shard is not exciting.

[fallen rose]

Is low life reaper form viable? Never played lich before. I don’t have a sense of how hard it is to sustain reaper form

[vivid ruin]

You have giga leech, ward generation and potentially death seal.

[obtuse quest]

No leech = reaper form drops.
Having health=no low life bonuses.

[vivid ruin]

With good endurance and armor, it's pretty tanky.

[abstract summit]

okay so today we learned that CB proc is by far the best thing to focus on lol
if you wanna run alternative scenarios agaisnt my planner drop me a PM and i can check them tomorrow

[obtuse quest]

You need to find that balance.

[molten bramble]

Theres a talent that gives you low life

passive

[obtuse quest]

The new node that makes you always low life helps, but caps your ward max.

[molten bramble]

it caps you hp max not ward

[vivid ruin]

I'll shoot you a link to a basic gear mana stacked setup.

[coarse dew]

what other ll bonues are there besides the 3x effect from that increased damage node?

[vivid ruin]

Doesn;t it also cap your ward?

[molten bramble]

oh also ward

[fallen rose]

I assume reaper form health drain passes through ward?

[vivid ruin]

Yea, HUGE negative.

[obtuse quest]

Yup, it ignores ward, just drains your health.

[obtuse quest]

That's the easiest one, and Death Seal's buff.

Lich has some nodes that scale with missing health or missing health drain.

[abstract summit]

i might just drop reaper at the end for bone curse, but i kinda feel like you need all the ward gen you can get
or you go the traditional way and spec death seal and keep your leech

[fallen rose]

Seems like corrupted form pushes you into stacking max life and then running a trade current health for ward set up but I can’t tell if that just kills reaper form

[vivid ruin]

Death seal is only 40% up time withour cdr

[vivid ruin]

You will outleech it for sure. I've played poison lich with self damaging aura and reaper with deathseal capping at 33% and reaper form never drops off.

[fallen rose]

Awesome thanks

[vivid ruin]

Main diff being that build couldnt use ward cos of seal.

The real Q is, is putting items for life-> ward worth it when you get some for free?

[obtuse quest]

If you accidentally mess up your leech it drops instantly.

At the end it's about finding the balance.

[vivid ruin]

Don't sleep on endurance. It's critical for managing the low life spots with high reaper drain.

[obtuse quest]

The only issue with that is the endurance doesn't protect ward damage, only health damage.

[fallen rose]

Does endurance affect the RF drain or just mitigates other damage?

[vivid ruin]

Just incoming damage

[abstract summit]

but i mean at that point what do you get from reaper instead of just stacking insane amounts of health drain / ward gen stuff and going hollow lich

[vivid ruin]

This I actually did not know. This is sad tbh.

[abstract summit]

because ye exactly endurance will still do nothing for you

[vivid ruin]

Reaper form does tons of armor, speed, some res's. Pretty good skill imo.

[vivid ruin]

Yea, last time I played reaper ward was not allowed so I didnt know it doesnt nerf the damage to ward.

[fallen rose]

Flay is def skill overloaded but there’s so many steroids in RF

[obtuse quest]

Reaper never stopped ward, Death Seal did

[vivid ruin]

Correct.

[coarse dew]

wow

[obtuse quest]

It just kinda was a weird option, since you'll give up Seal

[coarse dew]

ok bye pearls of the swine

[vivid ruin]

Angry oinks.

[abstract summit]

ye you can have ward now with reaper but it's gonna be baby ward cause as you pointed out earlier the skill is not compatible with the health drain generation methods

i think i will just cosplay a bony mage then lol

[vivid ruin]

Small ward beats no ward. Still a slight benefit.

Very slight

[abstract summit]

i think what bothers me more is the damage tradeoff i need to consider on top of still needing to micro the skill. it's like I either get the 180% increased from reaper or the ~150% increased from hollow lich. but i want both lol

[fallen rose]

Without RF you need a new mobility tool so I’m not convinced it saves you a skill to drop it

[vivid ruin]

Greedy boy. I'm just gonna take my leech to synergise with endurance and seal and lose a bit of damage,

[abstract summit]

ye prob that's where i start as well lol
i dunno, you just see those cool nodes on the passive tree and the tradeoffs are not immediately eminent. or they might be downright traps in the majority of the cases

[obtuse quest]

Sounds like Lich's passive tree alright

[molten bramble]

Is that what the primordial chest does will that increase max cap by 200% of max hp

even with cap from talent

[obtuse quest]

That's... a good question actually.

[abstract summit]

im thinking no cause both explicitly say they are basing their limits on max HP (only?)

but you know, LE

[obtuse quest]

If it takes only the higher one, the chest still makes it have a higher limit.

But it might just ignore it all together.

[abstract summit]

i think that's a very optimistc look 😄

[obtuse quest]

We won't know unless we ask the devs or test it

[abstract summit]

ye

i would expect you just never reach the higher limit cause the lower one caps you sooner

[molten bramble]

I am really tempted to just play 1 hp and throw out reaper form

but the crit the crit multi the dmg inc

[abstract summit]

with that chest, fo sho

[molten bramble]

Thinking of not using the chest

[abstract summit]

i think we are crit capped regardless with DW, you get back almost the same inc damage from hollow lich, it's really the utility and the crit multi

[molten bramble]

just use like exang

I think the relic is pretty good for mana stacking

[abstract summit]

exsang will still drain you

[molten bramble]

I want to drain me to 1 and have no leech

and not use reaper form

[abstract summit]

ye im just saying might as well get bigger rewards for it 😄

[molten bramble]

I think exsang is bigger rewards since you are not capped by 2x hp

and we have aoe rip blood to get me to 20k ward

[abstract summit]

i dont think we gonna have the retention for 10k stable wards anyway

instantly snapping back sounds better to me

how tf do you spreadsheet bone curse damage btw

[molten bramble]

you have to calc all the hits you do

rip bloods harvests cb's etc

it procs off every hit

[abstract summit]

but what's the base damage of it. same as the hit, or has its own flat

[molten bramble]

4 base phys

[abstract summit]

uh

[molten bramble]

I am trying to find added dmg scaling

[vivid ruin]

extra rip blood w flay boots

muddies water

Mana stacking flay boots vs transient rest is a legit question.

But the speed from flay boots has gotta be good.

Easy LP too

[molten bramble]

I think it is 20% added dmg effectiveness

for bone curse