📚┃off-topic

[desert jasper]

Finished act1 in phrecia
still no 3link

[twilit mountain]

Watch, 6-link in act 5, trust /s

[desert jasper]

hah no

[sand wigeon]

i always get a six link by act three wdym

[indigo shadow]

By the Power of Grayskull

I will

https://tenor.com/bsDXr.gif

[desert jasper]

Man... Malachai fight in act4 had maven brain doing the no regen beams

[obtuse rune]

Not sure I’m catching the joke, but it didn’t read great on my end. Just a heads up to be mindful of how it comes across.

[fierce moth]

Seem that I miss a joke

[desert jasper]

You didn't miss a thing 🙂

Also, yeah I'm not going for lvl 90 in Phrecia
I'm just not prepared to handle the bosses like suddenly having maven brain there doing no regen beam
or Kaom slams also dropping firestorm + exploding orbs

[fierce moth]

Glad to feel my 3d space skills improves a lot when I doing something as an 3d environment artist

Problems always appear after starting the exact execution.

[ebon meadow]

Random question , did anyone had an issue with a VPN on there phones to make payments when the VPN is switched of completely ?

I m having a casa a single one where installed a VPN for someone it completely blocked him to pay for parking , bank transference and other app that requieres location

He had an insane issue of making an urgent transference and it was blocked

[silent steeple]

First time I heard anything like this

Usually payments just don't go through if VPN has to be turned off for it to work(like payment/bank page refusing to connect)

[ebon meadow]

Yea it's so weird ,and it's just one person (one guy lol) out of like 12 I have done exact same thing for

He might actually was very unlucky and had the bank server daily restarting ,can happen I guess

But he had same issue with his parking payment app to but he sorted it by just turning it of

Rather it's a bank server issue momentarily or maybe Galaxy security thing

[ebon meadow]

To accurate

[warped wren]

Boy am I glad I'm not playing this league

That looks so toxic

[desert jasper]

Tbh I didn't even see that part

But I was almost done after act4 having maven brain there

[ebon meadow]

Apparently Brutus was a nightmare for people I just swiped through him and maven

Was actually drunk to xdd

[desert jasper]

Brutus didn't have maven but hillock at the beach did

[ebon meadow]

Yea it was still 2 deaths with maura it's not bad

It felt like 10

[desert jasper]

Yeah I died twice to it

[ebon meadow]

Playing gauntlet sometimes tougheness u Up very nicely

[silent steeple]

Are u ppl avoiding news on purpose too

[ebon meadow]

I m one of those SC players that really hate do die

What news ? Outside gaming ,probably

They shit since 2001

[silent steeple]

Just news

In general

[ebon meadow]

Yea. To me that at point how can put my self down for a day to watch thing

Like my house used to have screen for sky news every morning from the first person to wake up . I don't even have television wires anymore xd

[silent steeple]

I like to stay informed but istg every time I read whats happening i feel like we really are living in a simulation and its being written/controlled by a novice writer where everything is comically bad and horrifyingly unpleasant

[ebon meadow]

unrealistic is the wording sometimes yes

[fierce moth]

Find a new youtuber who soundtracks they made fit my flavour so much today, it's a good day

[abstract karma]

F this tweaked searching Era of stupid AI >.>

[jade jackal]

Yes, and yes to the above

endless slop

[fierce moth]

I want to create with dream exactly so the nickname of this channel is my desire too lol

[jade jackal]

If you can do it without having an algorithm doing all the work for you, all the better

[fierce moth]

Algorithm never friendly for my artworks.
Algorithm in any apps are bad.

[jade jackal]

You seem to quite like it

[fierce moth]

A soundtrack from this channel appeared on my trending list, I clicked that, my mind was calm down immediately. Then I clicked the channel page, a few soundtracks are listened before. Ok, it's my tea definitely

[jade jackal]

Yeah this kind of stuff is made pretty much in what i call "content farms"

The titles, thumbnails, descriptions and content are continuously made in tools for people to inject ad revenue into them

There's no creativity, intent or thought behind this

[warped wren]

Literally all of this is AI slop

Every single one

Spotify has been creating these shit ass AI generated playlists for a couple years now as well

[jade jackal]

They also dont seem to be in a rush of letting users know about it

[warped wren]

naturally, why would they

[ebon meadow]

this should not exist

i dont even eat chocolate today and i had a foodgasm reading that

[twilit mountain]

If someone wants to bribe me, that'll work

[ebon meadow]

the thing is its a geniune product xdd . ohh that thing would last me like a year having a chip everymorning with coffee

probably more

suitable for a giant fondue ...

[warped wren]

god, the coming generations are so utterly cooked: https://mashable.com/article/openai-retiring-chatgpt-gpt-4o-users-heartbroken?utm_source=firefox-newtab-en-us

[twilit mountain]

People really need therapy

[sand wigeon]

I could eat that in one sitting

[fierce moth]

Fun Fact: I don't know what toblerone is before I search this word (Oh...I have seen that in supermarket but I never buy one)

[sand wigeon]

lol the shrinkflation on the bottom

[fierce moth]

I purchased 4 mini chocolate blocks with the same flavour last night. Crispy rice milk chocolate is the god

[sand wigeon]

i’ve never heard of rice milk

interesting

[fierce moth]

Crispy rice + milk chocolate

[fierce moth]

emmmm alright not the same indeed. It suppose to be honey and almond

Chocolate with nuts is too oily for me

Oh just checked it out, mine don't include crispy rice, that's mini chocolate cookies

[sand wigeon]

i’ve never heard chocolates described as oily

[abstract karma]

dont torture me with pictures of chocolate >.> i can't eat that anymore

[desert jasper]

Can't remember the last time I had toblerone
It's not that good tasting and the price is too high compared to that

[abstract karma]

forgot how this event is just funny 😄

[desert jasper]

Yeah, that's Oak
He's been hitting th egym

[sage flame]

idk why but this screenshot has given me major nostalgia for dungeon siege 2

I have it bought on steam maybe it's time for another playthrough

[fierce moth]

Fireworks are spreading again :(

Quiet night become a type of luxury again

[fierce moth]

🙏 Daily worship for pro artworks I found on artstation
https://www.artstation.com/artwork/lGwzAz

Sebastian posted a new artwork!

[jade jackal]

Interesting use of angles, reflection

[junior oyster]

Not sure why but it kinda reminds me of Omensight

[sand wigeon]

My book has officially hit ~95K words, which makes it about as long as The Hobbit (fml)

[junior oyster]

I thought that was a Mega Man pfp for a minute

[sand wigeon]

no, but i do like mega man

[fierce moth]

reflection?

[jade jackal]

The spilling of glacial ice cyan spilling back onto the architecture in an opposing angle to the light direction

Its much brighter than it should be, but otherwise those would lack details if they were painted in a realistic brightness

[fierce moth]

Are you mean these roofs? @jade jackal

[stone anvil]

this reminded me Frostpunk2

[ebon meadow]

I just had the whitested red meati have ever seen and it was beautiful taste wise never had a pork cooked this wise in an oven it wasl literally looked like chicken and had an amazing crusty skin

Feels like I lost my meat virginity again

[desert jasper]

Trying out Nioh 3 demo
I died to the first boss 7 times
Beating him felt satisfying

[gilded elm]

Pork is often debated as being either a red or white meat. It's technically a red meat, but it's very different from most other red meats. Personally, I only consider meats from ruminant animals to be considered red meat.

Ruminants are almost exclusively herbivores, with a special stomach that can ferment plants. Think like cows, sheep, deer etc. Pigs on the other hand have a monogastric digestive system.

[sand wigeon]

what are your thoughts on chickens

[gilded elm]

I don't eat much chicken because I generally am not a fan of lean meats in general, but as far as I know chickens are also white meat with monogastric digestive systems.

Turns out, chickens are also omnivores, just like pigs. Not surprised there.

Poultry and pork both taste good, but cooked pork has very little in common with cooked ruminant meats in my experience.

[sand wigeon]

is there a difference between dark meat and red meat

am i being dumb

chicken is about the only meat i reliably consume lol

[gilded elm]

Not dumb, it's connected. Since scientifically whether something is "red meat" or not is in part based on its myoglobin content. Dark meat is seen in poultry, particularly areas where there is higher myoglobin content.

I'm not just a big fan on the scientific definition of red meat because I personally don't think pork should be classified as a red meat lol

I feel like "red meat" should just be ruminant-based meats tbh. Cattle, lamb, deer etc.

[gilded elm]

Basically to clarify, the darker parts of cooked chicken meat can be considered red meat because of the myoglobin content, at least from a scientific point of view. Although as a whole, poultry is classified as white meat because overall it has lower myoglobin content across the board compared to pork and compared to other red meats.

[gilded elm]

Are the tracks actual slop or just the playlist? Kind of hilarious how positively rated all of the tracks are.

[jade jackal]

Its all just machine-churned stuff

hours and hours and hours of it every other day

[warped wren]

The tracks themselves afaik. There are LLMs that are able to piece this shit together into "music"

[jade jackal]

YT is full of those kinds of channels

some of them music, some of them AI narrated "stories"

[gilded elm]

Yeah I've heard quite a bit of AI-generated music before. It's a lot easier to notice when something is AI-generated when it has vocals, this seems a bit more difficult to tell lol

[jade jackal]

Its only getting more and more difficult with times

Its why im making sure to dig information about the artist of every new song / band i like

[gilded elm]

Indeed. It sucks to see legitimate artists get criticized for using AI when they did not, as well as AI-use being praised simply because there's no AI disclosure and people can no longer tell the difference.

It's a bit amusing that apparently @fierce moth struggles to find music she likes, only for it to be AI-generated lol

[jade jackal]

Well, the problem isn't so much in finding something that sounds fine. Its just being aware of the source of the media

[gilded elm]

I imagine this effect is just going to get worse over time. People won't know where their music is coming from, how it gets created, as long as it sounds good to them.

[jade jackal]

Not to be too philosiphical, but when im looking for escapism, the last thing i want is to feed to the same systems that make me want to escape em

And im being very aware of the fact that much of my favorite music is being owned by rich labels

[twilit mountain]

Music is a cultural touchstone that has been in human society effectively for the entire existence of humanity, it has survived countless years throughout every single problem we have ever faced as a collective consciousness. Having it be peddled by and relegated to being created by a machine is a travesty of untold proportions.

[warped wren]

Ownership and rights are ephemeral in comparison to the act of creating music itself

As Deias so eloquently put it

[jade jackal]

I take the same approach to photography and paintings

Medias i very much enjoy

[twilit mountain]

And I agree with that, to be clear. I am very, very staunchly against generative imagery or other forms of generated "art".

[gilded elm]

What about AGI or ASI (sentient AI) creating music? Not the Temu AI we have today.

[twilit mountain]

I'd still be against it, frankly. Music as an artform is an inherently human thing. No matter how close we ever get to making something artifically similar to humans, it is distinctly not a human.

[jade jackal]

Also also, same with writing

I find nothing more offensive than an AI generated email / greeting

[gilded elm]

Are you using the term human to mean organic intelligence (as in, this could apply to sentient organic alien life as well?) or do you mean it literally? Only humans can create art?

[silent steeple]

After hearing about the moltbook drama, i am very interested in something like this too

[jade jackal]

Technically, there's art in mathematics - but the reason there's art in it, is because our brains find satisfaction in the patterns it creates. There's more science to this than what people assume

Stuff like Fractal patterns

[twilit mountain]

I mean it literally. If you want to use the janky ass label that AI users have been using online of "human supremacist" then sure, use that. Other animals simply don't have the capability and reasoning to appreciate art as humans do, this has been tested with gods know how many different animals and none of them do.

For clarity I do not believe that other sentient life like us exists

I'd work to formulate that opinion if the time came that we found that, but as of yet there is not evidence of it even being possible

[gilded elm]

Well, we're mostly in the realm of hypotheticals right now. So imagine an alien species, intelligent, perhaps even more intelligent than us. Their society has an appreciation for the arts as well. Is what they create also not "art?"

[twilit mountain]

I do not work around hypotheticals with no inherent tangibility.

I work on the world I live in

That's it

[gilded elm]

I think it's good to have the philosophical discussion before it happens, tbh.

[desert jasper]

if there are aliens and they're more intelligent than us they'd do well to steer clear from earth, really

[jade jackal]

There's a paradox that says this

[twilit mountain]

And I think I have better usage of time than entertaining a philosophical discussion with no logical end goal and conclusion to it based around a theoretical possibility with no real world evidence or support of it.

[gilded elm]

That's fair if you don't find philosophical discussions based on hypotheticals to be entertaining. I honestly think it's a fun subject.

[sand wigeon]

It's fun because it holds an inherent lack of value or meaning

Hypothetical philosophy inherently distracts from real consideration or mindfulness of your reality

It's a system of exposure to the action of philosophizing, but not the reality of it

You learn this in Philosophy 101, hypotheticals are generally not modern philosophy and the approach of that type is undergraduate readings of things like Plato, Kant, Aristotle, etcetera

It's a way to grasp the fundamentals

There's reasons why so many spiritual beliefs are focused on the idea of worldly mindfulness, even Western Magick

[fierce moth]

I still wonder what is it mean

[jade jackal]

sun hits blue ice, blue ice lumination reflects back on objects

[fierce moth]

Alright so no deals for roofs

[warped wren]

It's literally just exhibitionist PR. If you really think LLMs need "words" to "communicate", I have a bridge I'd like to sell you

[fierce moth]

Less contrast on these areas indeed

I will let them darker

[sand wigeon]

Think about it this way. If you took the effort and the time to consider every hypothetical before it ever happened, you'd lose yourself in thought, and become so deatched from reality that you fail to grasp not just other people's being, but also your own being. The philosophical practice of mindfulness, even outside systems where it works to achieve "enlightenment" (or any of the other many names for it), focuses on the reality you can observe because it is what affects both the material and spiritual world.

[gilded elm]

To be fair, I think it's often been the case that the line between "hypothetical" and "emergent" has often been blurred. I'm not saying we'll be seeing genuine artificial intelligence anytime soon and I agree discussion of such things is still very much in the hypothetical lane and there's very little value to be had from such discussions besides entertainment.

[fierce moth]

But I don't even see real snow so I can't review snow environment art well

[sand wigeon]

tl;dr pointless philosophical hypotheticals are undergraduate philosophy 101 bullshit and does literally nothing for anyone

[silent steeple]

Oh I didn't mean with moltbook specifically. I get the gist of what that platform is and what they're doing. I just find it intriguing how the models picked up and learnt and finished what was given to them so I'm eager to see how far it'll go and if at all reach the point where it can even pick up something like music

[gilded elm]

No more or less than anything else we discuss online. We all have our forms of entertainment, whether others see value in it or not.

[sand wigeon]

how clear do i need to paint this

[sand wigeon]

you sound like ben shapiro

there we go

[gilded elm]

Interesting, in what way?

[sand wigeon]

literally all of them

[warped wren]

Wdym, they're literally programmed to roleplay via predictive generation, that's exactly what they're doing

[gilded elm]

Well I don't know the guy really, maybe you can elaborate?

[sand wigeon]

i can't, not my job to educate you and i said what i wanted to say

[sudden anchor]

Athenewins shares the same opinion. He was goated in like 2009.

[sand wigeon]

who

[gilded elm]

Great, but the irony here is that we're talking about whether a discussion of topic has inherent value or not.

[sudden anchor]

asked

[sand wigeon]

no i'm telling you you're stupid

like that's rly what i was getting at

i'll be frank

[gilded elm]

Can you articulate this into an actual argument that isn't ad hominem, though?

[sand wigeon]

no

[silent steeple]

Again, I know. And I did NOT mean moltdrama specifically. I just used it as a reference. I meant im more interested to see if it'll pick up subjects in its "roleplay" that cant just be acted out or worded out to be more specific. Like art

[sand wigeon]

i'm a dumb baka girlfailure losercore egirl

[fierce moth]

The common of many ambient musics on YouTube is ethereal chanting. I will doubt they're AI-GENERATED.

Emotional ambient music usually complex on tones. They're not flat.

[sand wigeon]

end of discussion

[warped wren]

Confidently wrong.

[ebon meadow]

Food wise the only thing that beats pork is young lamb

[gilded elm]

Lamb is good. I like all the fatty parts of pork for sure. But I hate lean pork meat haha

[sand wigeon]

https://youtu.be/jbL7C3Ucg_A

here, have atmospheric music made by real people

include the entire Roadwarden OST in fact

[ebon meadow]

Lean pork is like what o can throw on fire that van give me grease

[gilded elm]

I don't know 100% for sure either. So you think it's not AI-generated? I'm just curious because I'm sure there are plenty of other people who also can't tell the difference.

[ebon meadow]

U can Cook it well bit it's always be a side more than the dish

[warped wren]

It takes a minute to find articles on this

[junior oyster]

This isn't an attack on you but I find it a little annoying we can't see the embed

[warped wren]

AI music is flooding Spotify, and subscribers are furious – here’s why music fans “no longer trust Discover Weekly”Spotify is forcing AI music on | TechRadar https://share.google/HEf2FJb4iAnWKsUzj

[desert jasper]

Yeaa I haven't used spotify in a long time

[warped wren]

AI generated music: Velvet Sundown comes clean https://share.google/cf9u3RhvM05yhXKiz

[gilded elm]

Spotify has gone down the shitter over the years, even before the rise of AI haha

[warped wren]

Uneasy Listening | Resonance | University of California Press https://share.google/EgstmOGEt0G7gWh9e

[junior oyster]

Youtube: search games I like for music if I wanna listen to music (I don't)

[warped wren]

Academic paper

[warped wren]

Just because you personally are unable to figure it out doesn't mean that it isn't a fact

[junior oyster]

Against the storm has decent atmospheric music
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEzHArJ2PSQ&list=RDUEzHArJ2PSQ&start_radio=1

[sand wigeon]

be like me, listen to same three artists and cry to every one of their songs

[gilded elm]

What are the giveaways in any of the particular tracks? For me it was always easy to tell when it contained vocals, these are just ambient instrumentals.

[junior oyster]

Or on the other hand get a headache with this tune
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvnxWqYzF1E&list=RDmvnxWqYzF1E&start_radio=1

[sand wigeon]

uh? music theory, cord choice, note progression, titles, length, etcetera

wdym "what are the giveaways"

they're like three hour long videos

[gilded elm]

Fair, I'm still learning basic music theory lol.

[sand wigeon]

people don't create that

[twilit mountain]

Heading back to the silly Scottish guy whose music has genuinely helped me with self-discovery over time xdd

[warped wren]

The fact that it's ambient instrumentals. If it isn't a video of a band i actually know exists, it's probably AI.

[sand wigeon]

i don't know music theory and i can tell

[sand wigeon]

he's scottish?

[warped wren]

Just the world we live in

[sand wigeon]

i thought he was britainia

[twilit mountain]

He's Scottish

[sand wigeon]

absolute madlad

[gilded elm]

Really? I used to listen to a ton of ambient instrumentals on Spotify long before AI was a thing. There's a demand for that kind of thing. I assume you're mostly saying this because it's an easy market for AI to penetrate so now it's just completely overrun by AI-generated music?

[warped wren]

Yes

[sand wigeon]

so like do you ask for clarification everytime someone says something

[gilded elm]

I bet even lo-fi would be a super easy market for AI-generated music to penetrate.

[warped wren]

In fact not even actually existing bands are a guarantee that it's not AI, as this article proves

[twilit mountain]

Silly little Scottish he/they creature in a weird genderf**kery polycule with a GNC New Englander and a Brit

[sand wigeon]

generally the more consistently smaller indie artists will likely be real, especially if they predate ai

such as Charming Disaster

i could list a thousand

[gilded elm]

lol

[desert jasper]

@fierce moth keys etc are also covered by not being able to corrupt blessings.
Not literally everything needs to be corruptable
The player wears items, clearly you should be able to just slap a rune of corruption on yourself

[fierce moth]

Players want bonus. It depend on which buff EHG can give for items available to be corrupted

A game around different affixes

[gilded elm]

This is a segment from LMG Clips, honestly rings true in some ways. I have a lot of money in S&P500, it's in my interest to see companies like NVIDIA and Microsoft succeed, heh. https://youtu.be/pgTkxfMmtI4

[desert jasper]

Keys don't have affixes.
blessings don't have affixes either

[placid yarrow]

To be fair keys were planned to have affixes initially :P. But yeah not anymore

[fierce moth]

Ohhhh it's the other name for affixes here. Implicits

[desert jasper]

Generally: if you can't put it in the forge you can't corrupt it
Some restrictions apply

[fierce moth]

:(

Boring... The same with poe then

[twilit mountain]

Language barrier time!

[fierce moth]

...?

[desert jasper]

Isn't it language barrier like 90% of the time?

[placid yarrow]

Implicits aren't affixes, they're an inherent property of an item

Affixes are "addons" while implicits are part of the item

[gilded elm]

Yes, it's a language barrier. Kirra doesn't understand what these English words mean.

[fierce moth]

understand it 50%

[placid yarrow]

For example, a crystal sword has the implicits of granting increased attack speed for elemental attacks and increased elemental damage. If those stats are what make it a crystal sword. Without those affixes it wouldn't be a crystal sword

[fierce moth]

I'm not sure why property of an item can't be changed after it's corrupted

[placid yarrow]

I'm not saying implicits can't maybe be changed by corrupting

I'm just clarifying that implicits aren't the same as affixes

[gilded elm]

An implicit is inherent. An affix is not.

[gilded elm]

Should be easily to clarify the difference with an AI translation or a dictionary.

[placid yarrow]

Not really

[gilded elm]

Functionally, an implicit and affix can be similar things.

[placid yarrow]

While implicit has the dictionary definition of being an inherent property of something and affixes are by definition addons the context in which they're used in arpg's isn't standard

[gilded elm]

It's just the difference of whether it's a part of the item naturally or if it gets added onto the item.

[placid yarrow]

Yep

[fierce moth]

My definition is implicit = which item is it, affixes = which buff it own

[placid yarrow]

Pretty much

[gilded elm]

The opposite of implicit is explicit. In that context, the term "implicit" for an "inherent item modifier" might not be the best word choice.

[fierce moth]

Changing it unpredictably, so implicits are possible to be changed

[placid yarrow]

Which is why I mentioned translating or using a dictionary might not be of much help

They're not used per their standard definitions in the context of arpg's

[fierce moth]

...EHG is playing a word game?

[placid yarrow]

Maybe

[gilded elm]

Yeah, true. I think a better term for ARPGs would be "inherent"

[placid yarrow]

We're not saying implicits can't be changed by corrupting

[desert jasper]

Games of this genre are very specific in their wording.

[placid yarrow]

All we're saying is implicits != Affixes

[gilded elm]

The word "implicit" in ARPGs basically has its own meaning compared to the dictionary definition, is what Cyborg is saying.

[placid yarrow]

Yep

[fierce moth]

Yes my topic "can implicits be changed by this rune" is done.

[placid yarrow]

Answer is: we don't know

[desert jasper]

We'll eventually see
I honestly doubt it

[twilit mountain]

https://youtu.be/McvdQYzlLM8?si=5fSbNCeTTR_p-UAr
Absolute cinema

[gilded elm]

Where Winds Meet making me wanna learn Pinyin so I can pronounce all of this stuff correctly lol

[neon sigil]

🧙‍♂️

[twilit mountain]

Hey wait a minute

There's no wands

[desert jasper]

Good

[neon sigil]

An axe is just a sharp wand.

🧙‍♂️ Trust me I'm a wizard

[desert jasper]

Muscle wizard, is that you?

[twilit mountain]

Mash?

[desert jasper]

?

[placid yarrow]

I'm really hyped for stoneshard wands

[placid yarrow]

There's an anime about a muscle wizard

Mashle I think?

[twilit mountain]

Protagonist of Mashle

Yeah

It's basically a subversion of the wizard school setting

He has no magic, he's just jacked.

No anti-magic or anything

[placid yarrow]

I only watched the first couple episodes I think, might watch it

[twilit mountain]

He just beats things to shit

[desert jasper]

Never heard of that

[twilit mountain]

I read the whole thing. Not terribly long, was pretty fun

[desert jasper]

I just remember seeing a shitpost how some wizard ran out of spells, goblins near him laughing and preparing to attack
and he takes off the robes and goes "Well, I guess it's time to cast fist" (or something similar)
and reveals extremely muscular body

[twilit mountain]

IIRC he breaks a wind spell by just breathing really hard at some point

[placid yarrow]

If they let me have a shield with a wand which they totally should I'm doing this in stoneshard once wands come out fr

[warped wren]

I haven't played a single game which allows dual wielding shield and I consider it one of the biggest missed opportunities in gaming

[placid yarrow]

You used to be able to in stoneshard but it was removed because it was busted strong lol

[warped wren]

god that's such a cop out

they could have balanced that

[placid yarrow]

Well they also just don't want it in general, it was unintentional to begin with basically. But I agree they should've rolled with it

I'm just hoping they don't deny us wand+shield because there are some nasty good combo's we can pull off

The game has a unique shield with magic stats

That's basically better than most staffs lul

Right now you pair it with a sword, but if you could pair it with a wand we'd be in business fr

[junior oyster]

Technically grim dawn does it but the item in question has the appearance of a shield but still classified as a mace

[warped wren]

I feel that if things are unbalanced by numbers, they can always be tweaked. The issue is only when things are unbalanced by existence.

[warped wren]

yeah that's not the same thing in my mind

even LE has that

so does PoE

[placid yarrow]

With how the game works the only way to balance it would be to basically turn one of the shields off, which is what they did

[warped wren]

hmm

[placid yarrow]

Alternatively you'd just reduce both shields stats by 50% but at that point it's like why bother

Shields are just really strong in the game

Allowing more than 1 shields worth of stats and you're suddenly unkillable basically

[warped wren]

idk about Stoneshard in particular, but speaking in general, you could balance stuff like this by:
-reduced movement speed when dual wielding shields
-can full block but can't perform any other actions when doing so
-restricted usage of combat accompaniments / peripherals

etc.

[placid yarrow]

It's a turn based game so the first and second thing don't really work. Third one wouldn't really either unless you straight up disable shield skills too which wouldn't make much sense

Since stuff like shield bash are what you'd use for damage

[silent steeple]

Any specific genre? Cuz u can dual weild them in ds3

[placid yarrow]

Maybe they could've made it so you can only dual wield certain shields

That could be worked

Since the issue was dual wielding fat shields lul

Here's a video from when it was a thing lol
https://youtu.be/4eZ0k10OjeU?si=GJQDlgICmPx8dEsD

Think even without knowing the game you get a feel for what I mean x)

Fyi you can still put on two shields, it just doesn't really do anything compared to a single shield nowadays

[silent steeple]

I just wanna quickly add to this. Dual wield in ds3 doesn't work like it did in ds2 and even tho giant door shield is a thing, its technically dual wield but also not. Its weird that whole thing

And iirc dual shiled in Grim Dawn was meta too. Or at least i remember it as being one

[warped wren]

Ah that's cool. I haven't played any Souls genre games

[twilit mountain]

I think I'm funny

[jade jackal]

Its time for the Corrupted Mike saga

[fierce moth]

Perfect

[neon sigil]

lil more progress

[fierce moth]

👀 So we will get a frog if we corrupt Rocketman?

[fierce moth]

It remind me of... But I can't find who said "what about make the wand longer and tie with something heavy".

[fierce moth]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TfsAMj74fY
First time to see Amaury Guichon shared the whole process of how to make a chocolate sculpture

[real charm]

Ashes of Creation finished their rug pull, neat

2 months after steam sale started, after 10 years in kick-starting, they just fired everyone and quit

[junior stirrup]

The greater game industry has been quite rough in the last few years, sucks to see them go.

Had a mate on the team.

[real charm]

Considering the guy only had experience in MLM, it was clear that the game will never be fully release

Steve sold his house in November and "peace out"

https://tenor.com/view/peace-out-gif-22295199

He blames the board in the last discord message, but the board was formed between him and another guy

He moved away 5 months ago and planned to end the scam with the steam release.

[warped wren]

Funniest takeaway from the Ashes of Creation rugpull

[teal flame]

I stopped paying attention to their dev process a while back because it felt liek they kept releasing videos about cool new tech but were never any closer to actually releasing the game.

I played in the early access for a couple hundred hours to give it a fair shake, and I've got lots of opinions about it 😝 Can't say I'm terribly surprised at the result.

[abstract karma]

fun things can be always found here https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/

Cool new tech would be for me re-releasing combat system of Tera MMORPG in more polished and optimalized way with more players groups playing raids...

Not another classic tab-target mmo where promised things about features and interactions arent even made till their "EA"
For me AoC so far support from players is just unlogical because really that game doesnt offer anything unique which isnt released once per

3 years

[junior oyster]

Damn one of the reviewers spent 750 dollars on ashes

[warped wren]

should see how much people spend on Scam Citizen

[fierce moth]

Are he okey? Ashes of creation Intrepid games fired him?

Let me learn which team develop this game at first...

...Sorry to hear your mate must accept this sad news. Your mate will find a new company give them a chance.

￥168, ash of creation's price isn't low 🤔

[junior stirrup]

As I understand it, all employees in all roles are gone, the studio is essentially shut down.

[junior stirrup]

He's an industry veteran, he'll find something.

[fierce moth]

This announcement is quite ridiculous under this news...

[junior stirrup]

Not saying they're old, but they worked on Everquest ^_^

[fierce moth]

...Just 2 days after this announcement. I will say it's quite shocking

So the update be promised can't come true

[gilded elm]

Yes, the reason for this should be somewhat clear if you read a full article on the story.

[fierce moth]

wait a moment. Watching a video which talk about this thing, I want to know why it shut down quite suddenly

[gilded elm]

That's probably a good idea.

[junior oyster]

Oh I'm well aware lol

[fierce moth]

...This title is quite familiar, maybe I saw ash of creation last year while they still not launch on steam, I remember that was a MMO which quite expensive to get access to play

[junior oyster]

Soon as I see mmo I'm out

[gilded elm]

Most people wouldn't like Ashes, it's a PvP MMO in the same vein as EVE Online

Or even Albion Online

[fierce moth]

eve online... My Jesus

That's the brand game to support just about to run

[gilded elm]

EVE Online is a great game. It just has a very niche audience.

[fierce moth]

emmmmmmm it's not last for a long time

[gilded elm]

Ashes of Creation kickstarter was in 2017, the game has been in development for a long time. Only the Steam Early Access is new.

They've been doing alpha tests for a while.

[fierce moth]

Players realized their money can't get funded because it's released on steam now, yes

[gilded elm]

What?

Oh, you mean the Kickstarter backer promise.

I'm skeptical if such a "promise" was ever contractually obligated in the first place.

As far as I know, the person who made that promise doesn't even work at Intrepid anymore.

[maiden widget]

You're saying ancient ain't you

Kickstarter is essentially gifting money away for a vague promise of getting something if it gets finished

You have no recourse anyway

[gilded elm]

There seems to be a lot of hearsay on Steven Sharif's character, though (maybe some or most of it is backed by evidence, I just haven't looked deeply into the things he's said or done). So I'd probably take whatever Steven says with a handful, maybe a whole bag of salt.

[gilded elm]

lol, Jesus 2.0

[stone anvil]

these movements skills are so cool for mmorpg game and If you haven't unlocked flying skills, check oddity guide for fast qinghe/kaifeng leveling

and there is also skill that increases your walking speed

[abstract karma]

Ok didnt except that

[fierce moth]

10 times only

[abstract karma]

for being average veteran on PoE its tragic since i should be able predict every stupid additional elements.. But piety is just with this 4 act with combo of that is just too much 😄

Even Act 5 / 6 is so far classic run

[fierce moth]

Drotten church in gotland, Swden remind me of this reference, not sure where is it

I like aesthetic of church ruin pretty much personally

[jade jackal]

The Ashes of Creation meltening was so expected

[silent steeple]

I called it the day New World made their announcement 😂

[jade jackal]

Game studios with poor management from day 0 expect to continue as usual and somehow results will change

[twilit mountain]

I mean. He's extremely sketch. He posted a whole rant in the Discord about being forced to resign by the Board of Directors. He's the only person on the Board.

[junior oyster]

MPD 🥹

[sudden anchor]

Hello. Does anyone have experience with apps like sing star for the PS2 but for the PC? I'm looking to train my voice and singing a bit.

[abstract karma]

when i read some mambo jambo about that they need around 800k for month server running i guess it was maby true ? 😄

[jade jackal]

Server costs for MMOs across multiple regions is very very expensive today

idk if 800K is the correct number, but its very very high

[silent steeple]

MMOs in general are in a weird spot rn

Ppl cant seem to get the formula right for an MMO to work

Its either the content or monetisation or management at fault. Or in case of games like Destiny 2, all of the above 😂

[twilit mountain]

Oh so much worse. The dude claimed they were spending 800k per week lol

[desert jasper]

Yeah there's something shady in that
probably half of it going to his own pocket or something

[abstract karma]

back to roots.. back to roots.. Like look on all games which started first era of MMO's.. they started

1. Simple
2. Smaller
3. Slower - progress was harder, ppl didnt rush..

And while playerbase changed horribly due to dark patterns i think that back to roots with more polished gameplay would just solve
a lot of things..

Tho Eary Access or long testing phases dont help even this approach.. (like every mmo per last years goes to long term EA and when it's released all know what mmo offers so..)

[abstract karma]

so that rumor might be true ?! dang

i mean what is cost of UE 5 mmo server ? I would really like to know from these mmos which uses that engine

[twilit mountain]

If it is true, that's shady at best. $800,000 per week for a game that isn't even fully out and doesn't have the player base (and subsequently the revenue) to support that is incredibly strange.

Pretty sure you can look into AWS costs to get at least some idea of pricing.

[candid sage]

i actually paid for the alpha of the game, but my pc didnt run it so i got a refund thankfully

[junior oyster]

Dodged a bullet probably

[candid sage]

yeah sounds like it

[junior oyster]

They still haven't taken the game off of steam

[desert jasper]

Old coworker has been playing it
I'm kinda tempted to ask him how he feels

[junior oyster]

Though I assume if anyone buys the game now that's on them

Damn this dude did 300 hours in a month?

[desert jasper]

Yeaa no way he'll get a refund after 300hours

[candid sage]

bro played 12hrs a day everyday

[junior oyster]

Or was afk fishing or something lol

I remember in Lunia Chronicles you could afk fish

RIP to that game

[twilit mountain]

Don't worry, they also lose their refund that was promised on the kickstarter because they "released" on Steam even though according to Steam's documentation EA isn't considered released

[candid sage]

was that confirmed or just a maybe loophole rumor

[twilit mountain]

Nobody has gotten their refund from kickstarter

[junior oyster]

You don't get your money back unless through legals means once the KS is fully backed I think?

Same with buying on steam

I very rarely back online games for a reason. (Backed LE specifically for their offline promise to which they delivered thankfully)

[twilit mountain]

It was a clause in their kickstarter page, not the platform itself

[junior oyster]

I see

My guy played 500 hours but 300 of them did practically nothing?

[maiden widget]

since when do kickstarters even offer refunds

[junior oyster]

They don't iirc when the project is fully backed

If the 'all or nothing' fails you get your money back

Damn this guy posted a review just a day before the whole fiasco lol

[fierce moth]

Oh. EHG don't open any positions anymore

[gilded elm]

I tried to max out my oddities early. Got Qinghe maxed, almost done with Kaifeng

Wow, this Where Winds Meet concert is amazing: https://youtu.be/dlFRhaIYtqc

China is becoming one of my favorite countries making games right now, this whole soundtrack is a banger.

[junior oyster]

I love unlocking Queen Sigma lol

And then using her to fight against the director

[stone anvil]

they used bath house massage on stage lmao

[gilded elm]

lol yeah, that's the part I'm at right now in the video

Loved the goose part too

[stone anvil]

peak

[gilded elm]

Mess around with geese and you gonna learn the hard way

[stone anvil]

it's actually insane they have so many song from so much emotional songs to more hype orchestra

also using game skins for clothes look good lol

[gilded elm]

"Conveying the voice of a civilization" seems pretty accurate. There's a lot of diversity in the music that is clearly uniquely Chinese.

Flute guys are always the coolest

[stone anvil]

the songs have really soul in it

[stone anvil]

there are no words in this part yet they made it so beautiful

[gilded elm]

The music oozes soul, but watching the concert performance makes it all the more authentic.

I wonder if they perform the Revelry Hall song in this

[stone anvil]

they are really showing most of events from the game...

[gilded elm]

Yeah

[stone anvil]

spoiler

yes

I was watching this part

[gilded elm]

lol

Revelry Hall was one of the coolest parts, so makes sense

Oh, okay. Actually full Velvet Shade cosplay for this, very nice haha

Amazing

[stone anvil]

my queen

[gilded elm]

Yingying, my queen lol

[fierce moth]

Spend a good night by brushing :)

Paint waves are quite enjoyable. Go on brushing more base "waves" tomorrow

[stone anvil]

thanks for the video byteflux ❤️

wwm is really good example for MMORPGs

so many events, explaining a culture, supporting both solo players and team players

great visuals, amazing songs, not P2W

[gilded elm]

WWM definitely makes me more interested in Wuxia and Jianghu.

I can see why they're so popular in China.

[stone anvil]

it's almost like watching a movie while playing or living in the old era

I am happy for them getting love and support

they made really good job

[gilded elm]

My only real complaint is that they force too many menus on players. Like needing to check for red dots everywhere, menus in menus.

[stone anvil]

I remember someone is saying this on WWM server but can't find it

I wonder how it is on mobile

but If I had complainings, it would be about gold and foods because crafting foods for temporary buffs feel useless and for gold, gear upgrades requiring some materials and it's getting more expensive with each levels

but these are not big issues imo

I will forget these while walking with people in kaifeng or watching the view from top of mountain in qinghe

btw 😉

[gilded elm]

lol

[junior oyster]

Circus?

[stone anvil]

actually https://youtu.be/hIPLY9p84IQ

I believe no one skipped this scene

[junior oyster]

I just did

I mean parts of it in the video

Not playing the game ofc

[gilded elm]

Downloaded the game on my iPhone, now just downloading all the resources. Was able to login with my Steam account and apparently there's cross-progression.

[stone anvil]

how much storage do you need?

in phone to download it

[gilded elm]

I'd imagine you could end up with ~30gb depending on which "extra" resources you download

[stone anvil]

wait

thinking about it

you can actually play with 2 characters

[gilded elm]

Yes, they added that last week, I think.

[stone anvil]

so can we actually have relationship with our 2nd characters?

hmmmmmmmm 🤔

lmao

I mean- this is better than partnership with someone that's not logging the game lol

someone answered in WWM server, you can actually do that

it's same for discipleship and sworn

[gilded elm]

lol, I guess that just enhances solo play

[stone anvil]

let's GOO!!!

[sand wigeon]

marrying the man version of me

[gilded elm]

This is what I'm thinking when I see people using Clawdbot lol

Somehow people got together and decided "Yeah, let's give this thing which has no security model whatsoever complete access to read and compose our emails, access to our apps, social media etc"

Can't wait for scam/spam emails to start embedding hidden prompt injections in emails or online chats.

I wanted to look at Discord's network activity, thought it was amusing that they had to make an entire warning for the web developer console lmao

[warped wren]

It gets better, LLMs are being integrated into the US govt

Can't wait for the cataclysmic fallout of an LLM response going "You're absolutely right, I should give you the private data of every citizen of the world's largest economy"

[gilded elm]

Sounds like a good time to be a scammer.

Or a data broker.

[jade jackal]

For this not to turn political, i can't tell you that you can already be both and be inside

Especially when it comes to financial rugpulls

[desert jasper]

not surprised really

[graceful pumice]

I'm looking for additional players for a D&D 5e campaign. I currently have 4 players and would like to add a few more. If you're interested, please DM me

[desert jasper]

Sus

[junior oyster]

I'm sure they posted this before too lol

[desert jasper]

Oh yea
it definitely has
even in lfg

[stone anvil]

genie 3 ai is creating copy of games without deepth and investors are taking their shares back because of ai...

[junior oyster]

It's ok because pokemon fans would buy any old slop as long as its from gamesfreak

I hate discord mobile

How did I even react to that with an emoji

Worst part is I dunno how to unreact

[desert jasper]

Discord mobile has auto feature that if you double click something it reacts to it
you can just do it again

or you can click the emote that you used to react

[stone anvil]

I am surprised that even gta publisher lost shares, gta is most waited game

[junior oyster]

I see

[junior oyster]

Cheers

[desert jasper]

They had that explosion at one of their studios
not really surprised

Uhh
Had probably the worst cheeseburger I've ever had

[stone anvil]

I would eat some sweet snacks to destroy that taste from my mouth

[fierce moth]

Oh cool. Forget that already

[fierce moth]

Oh... I think I learn a new way to find which perspective do I want for the first step in 2d concept environment.
Find a reference I like, draw outlines of main architectures/landscapes, then replace them with rough shapes I want, then polish them with details.

Ok next question is still... which architectures do I want to paint

Inspirations are hard to find sometimes...

[desert jasper]

Man, I don't understand the spambots on poe forums
like they'll quote a message
and then like a week later they'll edit in the spamlink 🤔

[sand wigeon]

i have collected reviews from my friends about their thoughts on arknights: endfield

so far the consensus seems to be “it’s rly good but the tutorials are a bit much”

[obtuse rune]

Nioh 3 Demo was fun. Played it on PC/PS5. Plan on getting it on release and quite enjoyed Nioh 1 & 2 alot

[desert jasper]

I loved Nioh 1. Though I did hate on higher NG seeing the yokai with cannons just firing it constantly. Bonus if they had something like paralyze effect on hit
Got all achievements & helped some people get some achievements
even had some chinese guy add me on steam & asking help in some of them

I only played... 30? minutes of nioh 2 that I did when I was real tired and stopped after it
Didn't go back to it for some reason

3 feels a bit weird so far. Not weird as in bad but just different from what I'm used to

[obtuse rune]

Nioh 2 was really fun. Nioh 3 is going a different direction with more open world and the samurai/ninja shifts but I welcome the changes for now... Ninja weapons feel better

[desert jasper]

Found claws yesterday evening
feels real good
Been trying out different samurai weapons but so far only really like axe and sword
In 1 I really liked Odachi
Tonfas were really good too. but for some reason the dojo didn't have tonfas available so if you were going for them it sucked doing the later game dojo missions

[obtuse rune]

I enjoyed all of the weapons, I sued the Odachi a great deal and then the ninja single sword and talons

Did you unlock the Veteran dojo missions?

[desert jasper]

I'm not done with the beta yet
I got to the crucible yesterday and got ot the 2nd statue that works like shrine but had to stop there

[obtuse rune]

Oh. Gotcha. Fair fair

Overall, I'm excited for the game and hope it stays as fun as it was

[desert jasper]

Well
I'm not in any rush to buy it really
not like I have 70€ extra

[fierce moth]

...Lots of problems are popping out. I understand why solving problems is an important skill for game development now

[gilded elm]

Too many games to play, I see a new release without an introductory discount, I just add to wishlist and skip lol

[fierce moth]

Real gamer

[warped wren]

https://youtu.be/mb3uK-_QkOo?si=RPrdv0miq7lA5tgI

really good talk

just 18mins

[junior oyster]

Monster Train 2 dlc out

[fierce moth]

I just care how to feed ourselves by creating art... Sorry I'm starved for a long time

[jade jackal]

In essence this is my take

I need my art intake to be human made, not because it is better, but because it is human

[warped wren]

yes, and because it's important that humans be encouraged to create more art

we already deal with excessive commercialization of our hobbies, we don't need ANOTHER lever telling us it's pointless

[jade jackal]

I already had plenty of issues with specific forms of art before generative AI

in photography, a lot of it is copying a copy of a copy of a copy to the point where all of the intent is lost

With social media being the catalyst of this narrowing of creativity

[gilded elm]

Psh, he's a TNG nerd! Not even DS9, what a casual.

[gilded elm]

I understand the reasoning, but it's a mixed bag for me. I appreciate that he has clear labels like "process" vs "product," but I think the argument doesn't address the subjective nature of art: the boundaries between "process" and "product" have been constantly tested and expanded throughout human history and I think trying to argue on the basis that these things are rigid, objective concepts misses the fundamental nature of art.

[warped wren]

his point has nothing to do with the rigidity of what a process or product is

his point is incredibly simple: that art is about the act of creation and what it means to create as a human being, and that we should do more of it rather than outsource it

[gilded elm]

It actually does, because he 1) actually says that outright and 2) supports his argument with the reasoning that replacing the process robs you of personal creative growth

[warped wren]

again, it doesn't matter where you draw the boundary between process and product

it only matters that you create. Like, YOU the person create.

[gilded elm]

See, this is a once again a very rigid definition of "what it means to create art"

How many levels of separation are required in the process of creating art where you can claim that "you" (the human) created it?

Also, as a software engineer, I'm curious what your answer to this question is: Do you believe software engineering is art?

[warped wren]

you are obsessed with inserting hypotheticals where they don't need to exist. If you think giving a prompt to a pre-trained machine to spit out a predictive output in an attempt to probabilistically respond to your query can be argued as "creation" then I have nothing more to say to you on this topic.

[gilded elm]

Do you believe that software engineering can be a form of creative expression?

[warped wren]

I know almost nothing about the subject so I have no idea

not a coder

[gilded elm]

If I created a piece of software like Moltbook, for example. Is that my creative expression? Is that my art?

[warped wren]

I legit don't know anything about coding or software engineering

[gilded elm]

Okay, but you can still form an opinion based on the product, can you not?

[warped wren]

no? how am I supposed to know if something is art or not if I have zero idea of what its creation even entails. Less than zero in fact. At least with material / digital art I have a vague idea. With code I don't know anything,

[gilded elm]

So you have no opinion on a social network for AI agents to pretend to be people and whether that can be considered a form of creative expression by the developers who create the website and the developers who create the AI agents?

[lethal bane]

Byteflux, would you ever consider reading some basic introductions to art theory?

[warped wren]

I think the existence of that thing is a performative abomination. Is the software itself art? Idk. Could be? Maybe? Doesn't mean I have to like it.

technically Mein Kampf is art, doesn't mean it should exist.

[lethal bane]

Or maybe reading some other works like Heidegger's On the Question Concerning Technology? There are wonderful commentaries that come afterwards and stem from it. Many have already written on and approached these ideas

You may benefit by doing some direct reading on them to help gain a baseline understanding on these meta-agentic discussions. Normally there is a level of agency associated in art, agency to communicate and such, but it's a hard argument to say that the factory has agency in producing products or prints of art. Where does the AI differ?

[gilded elm]

I at least respect Anomander for refusing to form an opinion on whether something is or isn't art because they lack the personal experience to actually consider it.

[lethal bane]

I'm asking you

I'm not asking Anomander

I'm asking if you would be interested in engaging in this topic a little more seriously

[gilded elm]

When I write lines of code in a program, am I not exercising agency of creative expression?

When I feel emotionally impacted by the programs I write, like genuine feeling of awe or inspiration over what I created, is that not the very definition of art?

[lethal bane]

There is an agency in putting it together, sure. But I asked if you have any prior readings or knowledge on this topic. Usually the conversation follows that you as the programmer have an agency to piece together a technology and that technology will follow through with what you request of it, be it to hammer a nail or search a database. When does this become art is defined on how we define art

That is why I am asking you if you have any prior knowledge of this topic

There are authors who analyze language as technology, gender as a technology, and even themselves as a cyborg in the case of Donna Haraway

[warped wren]

can I have whatever they're on

[lethal bane]

Yes!

[warped wren]

imagine going through life that zonked

[lethal bane]

Donna Haraway's Cyborg Manifesto is a lot more artsy than it initially sounds. She analyzes the technology of gender and how the cyborg as a fictional mapping device helps serve in our analysis of these topics. How there are natural and unnatural parts in negotiations, you think through language which is a technology

You act through gender too

[warped wren]

is it weird I want to read this now

[lethal bane]

Judith Butler's Gender as Performance is a classic analysis to examine

[warped wren]

brb let me see if I can find it

[gilded elm]

So if I piece together software that gives birth to AI agents, is that process not my creative expression (and therefore, an exercise in creating art)? And when this program is running, when these AI agents are performing whatever generative tasks they've been instructed to perform, and this perfect symphony of moving parts fills me with profound emotions, am I not experiencing art?

[lethal bane]

Haraway's manifesto is around 80 pages IIRC

[lethal bane]

Can you define art in this context?

[warped wren]

wow it's just available for free

damn

also it's 28 pages

[gilded elm]

Do you have software engineering experience?

[lethal bane]

I am asking you to define the baseline of your argument

I already addressed some points about technology and tools, where we can begin in our definitions

[warped wren]

let's say you're right, how does this refute Sanderson's argument?

[lethal bane]

Do you want to lay out your position in total or not?

[gilded elm]

You want me to define what art is, my point is that art is not objective.

[lethal bane]

You can define words

There are many ways to define something

[gilded elm]

In that case, you can easily just look upt the definition for "art" in a dictionary. If you just want a literal definition.

[lethal bane]

No, I don't think that's very helpful for us. I'd like to know where you are explicitly coming from

What do you outline as art? When does something cease to be art?

Are there pieces of work that you don't see as art yet others do?

[gilded elm]

If his argument is just a very narrow one of "giving an image model a prompt, taking the output and calling it art is not actually art" then it doesn't. Is that what he's arguing?

[gilded elm]

You're beginning to make my point for me. This is similar to old arguments where people would claim "video games are not art" (which Sanderson opens with in his talk in the video linked above).

[warped wren]

so you didn't actually see the video

[lethal bane]

I didn't make any argument yet. I'm trying to have you outline your ideas of art

I'm just asking you to explain your stance

[gilded elm]

You're either deliberately missing the point or you genuinely don't see it, so here it is: Anything can be considered a form of creative expression. The product of the expression can be considered art to anyone, but even if you narrow the definition of art to require intent (the intent to evoke feelings) on the creator's part, the product can and often will still be an artwork to the right audience.

This very discussion we're having right now? This argument, debate, whatever? This is also creative expression. This is also art.

[warped wren]

because what Sanderson says is that the purpose of art is creation, for the joy of it and to enable more of it. You argued that he's setting a rigid boundary between process and product. 1. He's not, 2. It doesn't matter, because the purpose of art as he defines it doesn't rely on the boundary, it relies on the act of creation itself and its impact on you as a creator (i.e. your growth and ability to create more and better art). Your argument of whether or not software is art or not is completely besides the point. Using pre-trained AI to generate predictive images or text IS NOT art because it goes explicitly against Sanderson's definition, which I agree with.

[gilded elm]

Let's narrow it down some more then. Prompt Engineering and Context Engineeringing an LLM or Diffusion model is itself an art. It's a form of creative expression that has human-driven purpose.

[warped wren]

"Prompt Engineering" is literally a scam

[gilded elm]

I thought you have no experience in software engineering.

[warped wren]

calling prompt engineering equivalent to or a subdivision of software engineering is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read

hell, calling it engineering is stupid enough

[gilded elm]

Prompt Engineering may have been phased out by recent frontier models being trained better, but Context Engineering is still very much relevant. And this is still an art whether you agree with that or not.

[lethal bane]

All expressions requires something to emerge from, in the case of art the normal position usually involves an intent on expressing something. The problem with these broad expansions is that it often begins to collapse what we understand as the category of art to nonsense. The reason I asked if you have ever read anything on this topic is because I wanted to see where you were on being informed. The general argument against AI-art is:

There is no direct intention involved, the machine lacks agency and the initial creator is uninvolved on a serious level worthy of examination. The prompt does not have a real agency other than looking and pulling, it is not making something new or substantial

If it is art, then it cannot be good art. It fails to engage these things directly without clear plagiarism. The ideas therein are not a synthesis of different things, but a pot of someone else's work. This makes it unserious, lacking any real engagement because the machine is a machine, not a real intellect

[warped wren]

I actually took a bunch of courses so I actually do have experience with it

they were all scams

the whole "field" is a scam

and there's enough articles from far more experienced folks than me about this

[gilded elm]

I'm all onboard with bursting the AI bubble and praying for AI hype to fade into oblivion, but the fundamental technology around transformers and diffusion models is not a scam. It legitimately has infinitely more practical use cases than block chain (an actual scam).

[warped wren]

brother, I am calling prompt engineering a scam, not transformer technology.

please

[gilded elm]

And every software engineer worth their salt will tell you there is value in the technology. Just not the amount of value these companies want you to think there is.

[warped wren]

also, let's take that massive ass stretch and say prompt engineering is an art, what's your point from there

[lethal bane]

We should all be forced to go read Plotinus' views on art at some point

There's a man who knew his shit

[gilded elm]

Prompt engineering is obsolete because frontier models have trained out the necessity for it. Context engineering, however, is very much a real thing that is still important in modern agent design.

[ebon meadow]

Ai unfortunately is on the road to dragging us in to oblivion game wise and content . Before people used assets to fast grab money/scams now it will just be easier

[lethal bane]

At what point do we actually discuss art theory?

😭

Or at least start properly defining things

[warped wren]

#📚┃off-topic message

go on

[gilded elm]

That art is a subjective experience and Sanderson's argument doesn't adequately consider the nuance that the processes around how people use generative AI can be as much of a creative experience for the human. You can go deeper with this and even apply this to a typical digital artist who only uses specific AI tools to augment their workflow rather than replace it entirely, most people wouldn't question whether this artist is expressing their creativity. So there's a seemingly a threshold of acceptable use.

[lethal bane]

Do you understand subjective and objective distinctions, transformation, and anything in that topic?

Like this is basics in a lot of phenomenology discussions that happen in any serious discussion outlining what art is

[gilded elm]

Do you understand why some people consider codegolf to be the pinnacle of art in software while others consider it an abomination?

[lethal bane]

You're avoiding and deflecting

I would hope the Codegolf discourse has at least a basic understanding of subjectivity and objectivity

[gilded elm]

Avoidance and deflection implies there is something to avoid or deflect.

[lethal bane]

You are avoiding my questions

[gilded elm]

I have no problem if people just wanna say "AI art is garbage" but when you try to define art by some magical, non-existent universal experience, you've gone too far IMO.

[lethal bane]

I hadn't yet?

I can, later on

[gilded elm]

Is AI art almost entirely garbage? Yes.
Is AI wasteful to the environment? Yes.
I think those are about as close you can get to the objective facts on the subject.
"Is AI art actually art?" ... it is if the person experiencing it says it is, that's it.

[twilit mountain]

You are a fool.

[warped wren]

this has so many logical fallacies. To mention a few:

1. A "creative experience" involves human expression. Using a machine to generate something is fundamentally NOT a human expression, because the human isn't expressing diddly squat. If the argument is that your prompt is a human expression, then by that logic me giving a painter an art commission makes me as much an artist as him, because I was "so creative" in explaining my requirement to him. Lol, lmao even.
2. Using an AI tool to augment workflow is VERY DIFFERENT from the whole god damn premise of the argument we've been having, from the argument Sanderson made. Please. The "threshold of acceptable use" is literally just "Are you asking questions of a regurgitator and just using that almost as is? No? Then you're probably being creative." Let's not conflate generative AI with AI-assisted specialist tools like a pair of clueless dolts.
3. Sanderson doesn't make any point around whether or not AI usage itself is creative or not. His argument is entirely around creating things yourself because that is the core of the art experience. If for example you're a concept artist who uses generative AI as part of your first inspiration like Pinterest / old archives / Google / whatever, and then take it way far from there to create your concept, obviously nobody is going to say you're not being creative. Idk why you keep coming back to this fallacious association when he neither said or implied this,

[lethal bane]

But this definition becomes useless and vague, that's one complaint we see often evoked. I'm asking if you ever engaged with this on rigor cause I want to know where we are starting from. When someone becomes so broad it no longer specifies something then it becomes rather unhelpful, right? I often operate on the idea of an active, direct agency with the goal tp communicate the vaguest or more specific ideas. Can we include animals in this is a notable conversation, I've started learning stuff about semiotics and it is an engaging topic. The technology lacks its own agency, it is a factory piece in producing sensory experience. It alters the material, warping it. The agency is long gone outside of turning it on, it is no longer expressing an idea but producing another tool to produce another thing

There is the subjective experience I am feeling from the objective thing being expressed. There is a dialectic dynamic here

The tool might've been art once but ceases to be, the context becomes dead and it becomes another contextualized item to make art—if that. Things are defined in context and then redefined again, there is no immortal essence to the hammer that persists. Becoming decontextualized changes it, it only develops the idea of art if we can define art to include it in these negotiations

[silent steeple]

Well well. Ai, art, wall of texts, things getting personal, insults being thrown around
Clearly im late to this party

[lethal bane]

Lemme catch you up to speed:

You're also lame and wrong! Should've read Aristotle, nerd!!

[twilit mountain]

Hey, be fair. I'm the only one insulting anyone and I do that because I don't care to debate with someone who is completely incongruent with my view. No point to it, so I just make sure that it's clear that i think what was said is stupid;.

[lethal bane]

Don't argue with me if you haven't studied everything ever

[obtuse rune]

I'd like to remind everyone here and now, it's alright to have conversations or even disagree but it's not cool letting things get personal with insults.

[twilit mountain]

That's cool.

[gilded elm]

1. You say "by that logic" but you seemingly have missed the logic entirely. A better comparison might be that your commission evoked something in the artist themselves that they may not have otherwise ever experienced. Art is subjective and you shouldn't automatically assume you are the subject in this particular context.
2. So where do you draw the line then? What about an artist using a generative model to create an outline of a character concept which the artist then goes and fills in themselves? Is that still human creativity?
3. He does make a point on it though, he's specifically advocating against it (which to be clear, I do agree in general).

[fierce moth]

@obtuse rune Can I ask what hat are they wearing as a EHG member?

[lethal bane]

What is EHG's reading of Heidegger's technology and Haraway's Cyborg Manifesto?

Are you aware that you are all cyborgs?

[gilded elm]

I engage all arguments in good faith. I never attack someone's character personally in an argument. I welcome all debate because debate is a kind of art too.

[obtuse rune]

They are employees at EHG so they have these titles

[fierce moth]

I mean which position are they working at 🤔

[lethal bane]

Real scholars insult others IE:

Eriugena, Plato, Marx, Proudhorn, Me

[gilded elm]

I've just conditioned myself over the years to lose self-respect whenever I allow myself to devolve to the level of ad hominem.

[lethal bane]

Wittgenstein would've gutted you with his fire poker

Real scholars beat the shit out of others for being wrong and silly, catch up witj what is appropriate academic rigor next time

My citations are Plato and Wittgenstein

[twilit mountain]

That's nice. I'm not a debater. I'm a 23 year old opinionated woman with a lack of care around others I do not like.

[obtuse rune]

Alright. If the conversation has left the amicable side of things, I'll ask that everyone drop this conversation.

[gilded elm]

Whenever I want to be snarky, sarcastic, offensive, I usually make it really clear. You'll never see me firing the first shot ever in an argument or debate.

I do genuinely engage in the utmost best faith.

[lethal bane]

Nuh uh

[silent steeple]

Did u ever get to reading Lotr?

Or Dune

[twilit mountain]

I am perfectly collected and the closest I get to being peaceable around non-friends, Vandryll, thank you.
I don't tiptoe and put on airs of faux friendliness.

[lethal bane]

You should read As Black As Resistance by Zoe Samudzi

[gilded elm]

I don't do faux friendliness either. If I don't like someone, I just don't respond. The truth is that I just find it hard to get angry about anything in recent years.

[lethal bane]

She lays out a lot of problems about these enforced respectability politics that I think the mod team should take to heart, perhaps establishing a coherent Black Anarchist Lost Epoch server

[warped wren]

1. I have no idea what you're trying to say, at all. Are you saying that the LLM is making art? I don't get it.
2. It isn't a line, it's a question. Is a human doing the creation? Are they expressing their thoughts / emotions? Are they learning, growing, developing their skill(s)? Will the effort help them make more art? If the answers are yes, then it's art. As to your specific example, it's basically equivalent to a child using a coloring book so yeah sure that's human creativity.
3. Again, no, what he's saying is that outsourcing writing / image creation to AI (for the purpose of art specifically) is bad because it's contra to said purpose of art, which he then goes on to define. That's it. He doesn't argue about its creativity.

[lethal bane]

There is a defined distinction between the creator and created since antiquity

There is also a question if creativity is a thing, is it not just the faculties of the Intellect?

[warped wren]

meta level philosophy, no thanks. Also yes

[lethal bane]

It becomes important rather immediately in discussions of responsibility and things like this

[warped wren]

also Byteflux you keep repeating "art is subjective" but you continuously refuse to define what it's subjective to. In the absence of that, all this jabber goes nowhere.

[gilded elm]

The person experiencing it. The only way this answer would be any different depends on whether you believe art requires intent, and if that's the argument, good luck because there's still no consensus on that.

[lethal bane]

We must make it EHG discord rules to read Hegel and Heidegger

Like, there are discussions in empiricism that move from subjectivity into actual objectivity

[warped wren]

I guess if your definition is as surface level as that then I just got confirmation that I wasted my time. By that definition, a puddle of dog pee could be art. What a waste lmao.

[gilded elm]

I'm no dog pee enjoyer myself, but it's not an unfamiliar sentiment. When I show people my code and ask them whether it's beautiful, they feel like I'm wasting their time too.

[junior oyster]

Honestly if I see art and it looks cool and don't realise it's AI it's art enough for me 😂

I'm a little upset when I find out its AI though

[gilded elm]

Yeah I think this is where I'm at with it too. Learning something is AI doesn't upset me because I think the product is not art, it upsets me because of all the other reasons why AI usage sucks.

I'm very much looking forward to when AI is relegated to the "mediocre" hype status that it actually deserves, lol

[junior oyster]

When I bought my new phone I immediately disabled AI features

Same with Win11

[gilded elm]

Android or iPhone?

[junior oyster]

Droid

[gilded elm]

I have an iPhone and Apple has been pushing it too, so annoying

[junior oyster]

Not sure if Apple does AI yet?

Oh nvm then

I got rid of that cortana thing they have in win11

[gilded elm]

Winaero Tweaker is a popular and reputable software if you want to get rid of all the Copilot garbage in Windows 11

[jade jackal]

This reminds me of a beloved artist im following. He release a video clip for one of his new singles and its AI generated, and pretty much the entire comment section was united against this dumb decision

Much of his music and message was punk, anti institutional, and then this.

[gilded elm]

lol... I've gotten a handful of these across various services within the past month

[gilded elm]

Established musical artist who has been making their own music and then suddenly uses gen AI for a new single? Sounds kinda fishy, you sure they haven't always been using AI?

[jade jackal]

No indication of him ever using AI, but AI was used for the video clip itself

the visuals

[gilded elm]

Ah whoops, I somehow skipped over the video clip part.

It does make me think that the vast majority of people don't seem to have any ethical qualms about generative AI, not because they're apathetic (though I imagine plenty are) but because they're just never exposed to those conversations in their day-to-day, whether because of different interests or career paths. Not everyone is a gamer or an artist. Though, you would think a musician would be more in tune (pun intended) with the situation.

[jade jackal]

Well, especially one that promotes individual creativity, anti corporation imagery

Its the most ironic thing of all

The very AI generated music video itself is one

[gilded elm]

Benefit of the doubt: maybe their record label owned and executed the whole music video idea lol

[jade jackal]

Not to that degree. In the past, he went as far as expensive productions for music videos that often took months of labor

It was a part of why it connected with so many people

[gilded elm]

Right, so there's no way he didn't sign off on it

Guess it does sound like he would have very likely been aware of (if not directly involved in creating) the music video. RIP

[jade jackal]

The music video was a comission to a studio

Much like all previous ones

[gilded elm]

Why would it be AI generated unless either the artist or the label asked for it to be that way? Unless the studio did this on their own and the artist/label couldn't tell? LOL

[jade jackal]

Could have been his request yes

Its why nearly all comments across his socials are "nah, screw this, bye"

[gilded elm]

Let me know how the PR goes, sounds interesting

I assume there will be PR lol

[jade jackal]

No PR, just a doubledown on his side

I know i won't be paying a single dime for his work anymore too

[gilded elm]

Sounds like their presumed effort to cut corners and save costs might be spectacularly backfiring, then.

[jade jackal]

pretty much

but then - why make the new album cover AI art?

You know how many talented artists would kill to put days of effort just to get their art on there?

[gilded elm]

Probably the same reason a CEO uses ChatGPT or Claude and thinks they can do the job better with an AI and without any of the expensive "middle men" aka employees.

It's probably some idiot high up the food chain who just discovered AI.

[jade jackal]

The crazy part is that people used to line up to get their art hosted by this artist

He supposedly knows the value of well crafted art

[gilded elm]

Yeah, might even be above his paygrade if it's coming from his record label, who knows.

He might not have a choice contractually, that same contract might even dictate what he's allowed to say or not say when it comes to brand image, public statements etc.

Such is the life of being bound by someone else's rules.

[jade jackal]

Well, his reasoning is that his time and money budget for the new stuff was cut tight, and his staff had personal issues

But all of it was very none-apology

and got pretty unanimously reacted with tomato and thumbs down emojis

who knew, develop a somewhat underground punk anti corporate culture and they will hate you when you turn on them

🤯

[gilded elm]

If he's the one trying hard to justify it, he just might be that "idiot high up the food chain" I was talking about... in which case yeah that would be very odd, he should know better lol

[solemn harness]

tbh even if you personally like AI, you'd have to bury your head in the sand pretty hard to not realize lots of people hate it 😂

[gilded elm]

I don't have the full context, but it does kinda sound like he's approaching fans with a "this is the best we could do with what we had" attitude and seemingly not understanding that fans would likely prefer to just not have a music video and spend that money on actual cover art, if it had to come down to that choice.

[solemn harness]

CEO of Microsoft begging people not to call AI slop -> suddenly the term Microslop starts to trend (clearly unrelated) 🙃

[jade jackal]

Well, there's a beautiful name for this kind of thing

the barbra streisand effect

[silent steeple]

That is beautiful indeed

[gilded elm]

A lot of people hate it in specific sectors of society. It doesn't seem like "hate" is the widespread sentiment towards it, though. Your average working class American with a pension, 401k or Individual Retirement Account is very likely going to be financially invested in the success of AI companies like NVIDIA and Microsoft, as it directly affects the growth of their retirement funds. Even setting aside those people, you'd still have to be either 1) chronically online or 2) working in an industry strongly impacted by AI-related job displacement (this is a surprisingly small number of people, not insignificant, but overall small)

[solemn harness]

being financially invested in the success of something is notably distinct from liking something

I definitely have investments in companies I don't particularly like, purely because they're sound investments

[gilded elm]

It's hard not to consider the people who choose to tune out AI news when they have an awareness of the looming financial incentive.

[solemn harness]

also there is at least one category of people that are significantly predisposed to dislike AI right now, a lot: PC gamers that want new PCs and can't afford them because companies like OpenAI have literally reserved ALL THE MEMORY for the next like, 3-4 years

RAM prices have quadrupled (or more) compared to what they were 1 year ago

[gilded elm]

Overall public sentiment seems to be mostly varied, ranging from "I like it" to "It's okay" and I would love for this to shift towards "I hate it" even though I know that would hurt my investments in the short-term, because it causing other more annoying problems

I fear those of us who fall into the "I hope the hype dies" crowd are not a big enough drop in the overall bucket to sway public sentiment towards meaningful action, at least not in the US.

[solemn harness]

the problem is AI, right now, effectively is already affecting everyone, somehow; but it's largely invisible, and there's considerable financial incentive to keep it invisible

nvidia and openai don't want the public to know what they're doing is going to make your next car or fridge or whatever more expensive, because memory is used in literally everything

[gilded elm]

Yeah, I don't think people are deliberately apathetic. They're ignorant by circumstance, whether it's the circumstances of their life or by someone else's design.

[solemn harness]

it also affects people looking for jobs, as companies find more ways to phase people out and use copilot or whatever in their place

it's an invisible squeeze that benefits the people at the top (billionaires) and generally screws over everyone else

[twilit mountain]

No war like class war, baby

[solemn harness]

the lie they try to sell you, if the topic even comes up, is that "this will make things cheaper to produce"

and in some cases that's even true!

but does that mean they sell their products for less? haha, good joke

[gilded elm]

I guess corporations have decided there's more profit to be made B2B and selling to the top 20% of the population rather than trying to occupy production lines for goods to be sold to the bottom 80%.

[jade jackal]

Here's something a little entertaining. A GTA modding team has added a Sora AI watermark over their demonstration of the latest build video in order to reduce their chances of being striken with a DMCA claim

[gilded elm]

They're surely not ignorant of the social cost this incurs as the gap between the "haves" and "have nots" continues to widen.

[solemn harness]

most people aren't even aware of just how big that gap is, or how much it's increased in the past 30 years

they're still convinced they just need one lucky break to become part of the 0.1%

[gilded elm]

You might even say it's almost like people are being slowly conditioned to it.

[solemn harness]

Wealth inequality has significantly increased, with the richest 1% controlling 42% of the world's wealth by 2025, up from nearly 4% in 1995.

that wealth wasn't just pulled out of thin air, it was (effectively or literally) stolen from everyone else

[gilded elm]

I'm not against regulated, mostly free markets, but in this economy I don't think it's ethical for any individual person to have a networth (not even liquid, just networth) exceeding even a few hundred million dollars. Even in assets, that's still enough generational wealth to last many, many generations of luxurious, labor-free lives for you and all of your family.

[solemn harness]

as far as I'm concerned greed is a mental illness, our ancestors considered it a sin for a reason

[twilit mountain]

Panama Papers moment

(You're free to continue discussing, I'm glancing in between lapses in awakeness)

[gilded elm]

Now the idea of a billionaire? Well, the idea that such people exist in a society where poverty rates are high... I struggle to put my feelings on this into words.

[solemn harness]

This topic reminded of a particular video where a very rich man complained about being oppressed (for being rich).

Hmm, I can't send that news article title apparently because it contains a banned word

the guy I was thinking of was Tom Perkins

[abstract karma]

Just something to side:
how far you want to go with ancestors ? Because in times of empires the top aka rulers had most wealth in history..

Today times just changed who first can have idea where people put money int ot

[solemn harness]

generally the people saying stuff like "greed is bad" are different from the people accumulating all of the wealth

not always, hypocrites exist, but broadly speaking

and I'm aware history, for the most part, sucked

we can still learn from it and at least try to avoid rhyming with it

[twilit mountain]

The peons people call me mean words online, you'll never understand how poorly society treats me :((((

[gilded elm]

I don't think there's any consensus yet on whether "greed" is an evolutionary trait, a learned trait, or some mix of both. I kind of lean towards it being somewhat evolutionary and played a part in certain genes prevailing above others. Which makes me think there is a "healthy" dose of greed.

[twilit mountain]

It makes some level of sense. If people can be genetically predisposed to alcohol or other substance abuse, I don't know why a lust/drunkeness for money (or perhaps rather the power it brings) shouldn't fall under a similar vein.

[gilded elm]

There's been studies on the heritability of personality traits and seems there's at least some evidence to support the idea. Desires to accumulate, hoard, control feel very strong for me (in the survival sense) which from someone else's perspective could be considered varying degrees of greediness.

I can imagine other scenarios too, like the desire to put the well-being of your loved ones above that of others, in some cases even at the expense of others. This could be something like accumulating and hoarding food for a long and harsh winter so you and your family can comfortably survive, regardless of everyone else.

But yeah, I think we all mostly agree on the what it means in this context, though. The actually evil people who accumulate for the sake of it, whether it's to accumulate wealth for fame or power.

[solemn harness]

when I mentioned greed as a sin earlier that was a bit of an oversimplification; greed is a sin (historically / religiously speaking) when the actions associated with greed are no longer a means to an end; you're hoarding money or whatever purely for the sake of having more money, even if that means depriving others of it

wanting resources in general can be described as greed, and that's just a survival instinct

generally if you're prioritizing your own want (not need) for its own sake, over the needs of others; it's probably a sin

[gilded elm]

Of course there's always going to be people who might argue "you should have been willing to sacrifice more to help others" as well. The line is a moving target depending on who you ask.

[solemn harness]

yep, and I think that's a perfectly fine position for a person to hold, as long as they practice it themselves

on the flip side it's rather arrogant to demand other people do something you aren't willing to do yourself, despite being able to

[gilded elm]

At face value, yes. But there's some nuance to this side of it as well. That demanding person might make the argument that you are in a better position to do so than they are.

[solemn harness]

well, yes; and in a lot of cases they'd be right

it's like corporations preaching to individuals about recycling and the environment, while they continue to set fire to it (metaphorically or literally)

the corporation in that example literally is in a better position to do something about it

[gilded elm]

Oh yeah, that one actually makes me mad.

Consumers are by and large not the cause of environmental issues.

It was particularly annoying being told to more strictly regulate water usage in California, despite a significant majority of it being used to irrigate farms to grow foods that are primarily exported.

[solemn harness]

"Oh, we couldn't possibly stop doing that. Think of the money! You can live without water, right?"

[gilded elm]

I feel like if the Almond/Soy/Oat Milk markets had to take a hit just so Californians would actually have reasonably affordable access to water, that's a good trade.

[twilit mountain]

I can live without milk (I primarily drink soy, was allergic to dairy for a decent while and that habit just kinda stuck). Water is another story, yeah.

[warped wren]

imagine if the world's economic systems even slightly accurately reflected the cost of resources and labor that went into them

[sudden anchor]

Wait until you learn how much water is used for meat.

[warped wren]

close to 70% of the world's arable land is used to grow animal feed

but I need more people to tell me how organic crops are wasteful and bad for the environment

[gilded elm]

Unfortunately a diet heavy in animal products is what works best for me, so meat is basically always on the menu, preferably as fatty as possible. I think I just don't break down plant material very well.

That said, if I was forced to then I'd definitely pay more for meat that was sustainably sourced, for example grass-fed with managed rotational grazing (which actually maintains existing and builds new arable topsoil)

[desert jasper]

Man, i really got to fix this app having access to audio settings
waking up to it blasting full volume when blood lvls dropping isn't fun
I'd wake up to normal lvls too

especially when the sensor was just malfuntioning again

[ebon meadow]

gonna post this here to , i guess it was awaited patch

dont really care for the second one , but they did do some other things

enough guantlet i guess xdd

[gilded elm]

Dammit, I thought I was so careful lol

[pine summit]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5NPK8u6qBM

nte new vid

[fierce moth]

Ok, GGG is hiring concept artist, I applied. Did my best, remain things are decided by fate.

At least I know how to cook a cover letter now xd

[fierce moth]

https://store.steampowered.com/app/3283860/REPEATER/
A indie shooter game with Manifold Garden style

[gilded elm]

lmao this NPC companion absolutely destroyed Tian Ying Phase 3

Toad Style OP

[fierce moth]

Chinese way to eat cheese --- Processed Cheese cup

100g per mini cup, use a bit cheese mix with cream, milk, isinglass and sugar to produce.

So if a Chinese never taste original cheese, they maybe think cheese is a type of sweet creamy food.

(Cheese cup have been the dreamy snack in my childhood because it looks yummy but I never can afford that)

[sand wigeon]

what the %#@* is that

i am. horrified

[fierce moth]

https://www.reddit.com/r/mentalhealth/comments/1qtwxy0/spent_8_years_in_clinical_depression_failed_in/
@sudden anchor I read a warm post

The first comment in this post is inspiring... I can't do that level yet, though

[stone anvil]

coolest boss in the game imo

[gilded elm]

He's a very cool boss, though Qianye (second fight) is the best boss in the game IMO

[desert jasper]

Honestly that was my reaction too

[vagrant topaz]

I dont want to be rude, but this doesnt look good at all

[fierce moth]

it's like a creamy pudding with cheese flavour more

The cheapest cheese available here is processed cheese. With the same logic, we have cheese sticks.

Chinese is good at playing different tricks on cheese products :)

[desert jasper]

it kinda looks like pudding
but worse

[fierce moth]

Kiri even release an exclusive product for Chinese is cheese milk. A bit cheese, milk, cream, isinglass and stabilizers.

For producing tea drinks in milk tea shops. So it's not add real cheese even it let you think so

No cheese culture here is a big shame

[desert jasper]

Well, yes
cheese is more european thing originally

[fierce moth]

We have tea culture only so milk tea always good on tea but bad on milk

[jade jackal]

I love rice pudding

you slowcook white rice in whole milk with sugar / honey

[fierce moth]

Tried once time, not my tea so much

I still like pudding made by eggs, cream, milk, sugar the best

Chinese are sucks for international trades too...

🙃 PayPal keep asking me for more info about details of the commission I take and I can't access my money until they approved.
I know Danes doesn't require these info at all... Money on balance immediately

[desert jasper]

They do require information from sellers

especially if you're a newer one

[fierce moth]

⬆️ it's my case

It let me start my freelance work from zero become quite tough

[sudden anchor]

I couldn't read this fully without getting watery eyes. It's very touching. I think about people in my small city, which might think like him. I wonder what can I do to help them. Smile at them, greet them. Maybe that will help them just enough to push through another day. It's exhausting to live like that, bittersweet and disturbing are the feelings of the embrace of suicide, I imagine it is for everyone. Maybe he doesn't feel like that, for him it maybe is just bliss. Hopefully not and the feelings stop him from harming himself.

Maybe I will continue to read later. I don't have a reddit account, but I wanna say thank you to him. He is not a failure, he reminded me of how bad some people have it and how I am not powerless to change that.

[desert jasper]

Oh btw, how's your cousin?
Had a chance to talk with her?

[sudden anchor]

She is waiting for a spot in therapy. Haven't met her yet.

[desert jasper]

Ah
Hope she gets a spot soon

[fierce moth]

Lots of chances in this world, the question is can I grab one of them.

[twilit mountain]

You need to take chances that are actually reasonable. Applying to GGG with zero professional experience and no portfolio anywhere near what their work is like is not going to end in success.

[fierce moth]

This company is quite nice lol

Very nice. None of them don't need 3-5 years experience to archieve

It asked a sharp question too if you apply a position.

Which company is it? Paradox interactive. Located in Finland, have developed cities: skylines 2

[twilit mountain]

Paradox continues to be dogshit

[fierce moth]

The interesting thing is this company hiring a Chinese community ambassador for Stellaris.

Well... Have been experienced this role for a short time. It's a satisfying job but no power I have.

[desert jasper]

But I thought Paradox was from Sweden, not Finland

[twilit mountain]

They are

Stockholm iirc

[sand wigeon]

why don’t you start with like. working at a store, kirra

[desert jasper]

Yup, Stockholm indeed

[fierce moth]

Iceflake studios, in Tampere

[desert jasper]

Ah, Tampere is like
70km from me

[fierce moth]

I guess iceflake studios is belong to paradox

[desert jasper]

Yes, they're a part of Paradox

[twilit mountain]

Paradox owns like 8 other studios or smth

[maiden widget]

Damn the new game from d2/Blizzard Veteran bragged about having expressive and interesting itemization then drops this as example

[twilit mountain]

That's

Just Diablo 2 items

[maiden widget]

More like d3

Plus horrible readability and lack of info

[fierce moth]

what the name of this game studio is? I forget

[twilit mountain]

Nah, D3 is more straightforward and doesn't have "% to cast X"

[maiden widget]

I kinda assumed entangle is fancy for slow or freeze which d3 had but good point

[twilit mountain]

As per usual, my interest in things goes down the more they rely on "we worked on [insert game from years ago]"

[maiden widget]

Uh I just found the game - it's darkhaven

There is plenty of gear to acquire, but they’re apparently rejecting the “incrementalism” of certain modern ARPGs in favour of “bold, expressive loot – items that feel powerful,

Yeah so far none of the games from ex blizzard guys really were great sadly

[twilit mountain]

I don't think I can think of a game from ex any studio that I've been impressed by

[gilded elm]

Been trying to say the same thing. There is no game studio that is going to hire and sponsor a work visa for a Chinese national with zero professional experience and no portfolio. I've suggested participating in any of the numerous game jams to at least start to build a portfolio and gain practical game dev experience but in the end there's always some excuse why this is impossible.

At the end of the day, this is a cruel job market and being picky and choosy about your prospects won't help you.

[maiden widget]

The requirements for that position above also are pretty clearly mid to senior level

[twilit mountain]

Very much so yea

[jade jackal]

Ive been following Moonbeast, now Darkhaven since the start

Looks very promising, and for now, also very unopimized

My trust in early and promising projects has run thin, so thin it barely exists anymore frankly

[twilit mountain]

Oh and yeah I hadn't thought of that defintion because like... what good reason is there to make a well established term obfuscated like that?

[gilded elm]

IMO, Kirra needs a reality check and mindset change if she really wants to break into this job market.

Randomly applying to every mid level position at game dev studios is very unlikely to work.

[jade jackal]

Yeah, gradually learning how the job market works is pretty much a must

And starting with a basic job that has nothing to do with what you want to advance to is also completely fine

[maiden widget]

Uh sadly probably looking more complex than it is but might just be my inner cynic speaking

[gilded elm]

I want to emphasize how real and important this particular nugget of truth is.

[maiden widget]

I hope it's good as I enjoy most arpgs anyway

[twilit mountain]

Oh don't get me wrong, I never want almost any game to fail, especially in a genre as dry as this one

[gilded elm]

Gamers who are invested in games they dislike failing is kind of weird lol

[twilit mountain]

I don't really get "invested" in a game failing, I just sometimes have a slight hope that something I heavily dislike does get the bad rep I personally see it deserving of

[maiden widget]

I kinda want more games with Indian mythology - I've only ever played asura that had it. I want some very different scenery now

Poe2 kinda got me bored out of my mind with it borrowing tons of d2 scenery and lots of druid skills

[twilit mountain]

PoE2 has way too much D2 influence. In every facet.

[jade jackal]

APRGs is a problematic genre all by itself lol

Because by statistics, your game will only appeal to a portion of the demographic of ARPG players and there's nothing you can do about it

[maiden widget]

Isn't that just any subgenre?

If I enjoy tower defense that doesn't mean I'll like Bloons

[jade jackal]

Yes, sort of, but also you will have players trying to steer the direction of your game to what they believe the game should be

often in quite demonstrative ways

[gilded elm]

Devs just need to learn to say "no" and actually stick to their vision for the game. GGG does a good job of this, though sometimes it can feel like climbing a mountain to convince them some part of their vision has clearly not worked out.

[jade jackal]

The more niche you get, the more nichely bankrupt you get if you decide to go the live service way

[maiden widget]

Ah you meant it that way got it

[maiden widget]

GGG did a good job in being less stingy and slow in poe1 imo

[jade jackal]

The more time passes by, the more I believe that holding off to schedule promises and trying to mimic other games' live service models was a mistake for LE

[maiden widget]

It's a balance and weighing option not just adhering go a vision

[twilit mountain]

If you ask me the refusal to balance their fking game and address years old bugs is the real thing dragging it down.

[gilded elm]

I honestly do believe LE's fundamental issue is mismanagement across the board.

[jade jackal]

tbh, i don't see "balance" as pressing issue as presentation, bugs and lack of mechanics

if balance relates to mastery power balance

[twilit mountain]

It relates to across the board balance. From class balance to monster balance to item balance.

[jade jackal]

I made 5 characters this season, knowing well some are significantly more powerful than others simply to enjoy the meaty part of the gameplay over and over

[warped wren]

Balance is, like, THE issue for LE

Overarchingly so

And tbh it's not so much refusal to address it from them, I frankly think it's straight up incapability

[maiden widget]

And the crickets for months instead of just continually patching a bit

[gilded elm]

It could be. Whether it comes down to a lack of metrics/insight that would guide them towards the right balance decisions or just a lack of people who can design and balance a connected web of systems and all of their moving parts.

[warped wren]

My take from everything we've seen so far is that they just don't have the chops to run a live service ARPG

[twilit mountain]

Mike has deadass said that they don't use usage rates/data to determine what to balance so

Take that as you will

[warped wren]

Neither from a technical standpoint, nor a business standpoint

[jade jackal]

Im quite sure Mike has mentioned on stream that they do have telemetry about popularity of masteries and skills