📚┃off-topic

[blissful token]

every boss does seem to have way lower hp thorough the campaign

i remember spending a long time at draven last time

and thats early in act 1

[gilded elm]

Yeah, Draven seemed easier too, maybe even Lachlann although Lachlann is mostly just knowing to avoid his main killer slam so that's usually not that hard to begin with.

Jamanra might've been one of the more difficult bosses all around.

Out of the whole campaign

[fierce moth]

who Draven and lachlann is?

[gilded elm]

Draven is early act 1 cemetary boss (together with his Consort, Asinia). Lachlann the old man in the cemetary who transforms after you open the gate.

You beat Lachlann to get his ring, the ring is used to heal the Hooded Man in Clearfell camp

[junior oyster]

Draven was always easy imo

Same with lachnan

[maiden widget]

depends on your patience honestly

[junior oyster]

And build

I was flame wall srs

[maiden widget]

oh yeah makes sense

lots of kiting possible then

[acoustic jungle]

RIP to all who barked for 12+ years, and didn't get to see it. Much like every QoL change, you have like 90% of people barking that it's bad, and then once it's implemented, they...well, they don't reflect on it, but they'll feel better without knowing why. https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3697399/page/1 - the fact that the overwhelming majority of players are against an Auction House is demented, but sadly, expected.

In my opinion, this level of ignorance is highly immoral. Not looking to turn this into a goddamn lecture or some pretentious crap, but man...I cannot ever justify being this ignorant.

Yes, async trade has issues. But it's a baseline better system than whatever the hell that fever dream was. I didn't play A LOT of PoE, but trade was awful.

There's a current schism happening in the WoW community as well. The overwhelming majority of players posting don't want a solo-queue. They think that:

• A solo-queue for dungeons will not have any rules around composition of the team.
• That there will be no checks for people's skill, so you don't get matched with lower people randomly
• That Blizzard will not work at all to iron out details about it.
  It's like living in a parallel universe, and because of that, most of them think 'solo queue' changes nothing. Much better to wait 20 mins in a queue than 20 mins having to look at at least 2 sites to decide if you should invite someone or not. It's not even an argument.

[gilded elm]

I'm skeptical of the assertion that a majority of PoE players are against an AH. I think there's a lot more reasons for a vocal (but significant) minority to voice contrary opinions in PoE culture. In particular, I think it's especially difficult for an established status quo to be challenged when the developers themselves especially are reinforcing it and giving ammunition to the AH opponents.

[fierce moth]

That's wonderful if a loot-based ARPG can have the art level of poe 2 + le's skill and passive tree + boss combat design in poe 2 + regular/rare enemy design in le + immersive storytelling in d4 🤔

(I'm daydreaming)

[acoustic jungle]

I mentioned people who posted.

I agree with you, if you were to apply some quesionnaire psychology, and query ALL the players, like 90% of them would love it.

[gilded elm]

Ah yeah, I didn't attach that context my bad lol

[acoustic jungle]

...but they probably wouldn't know they love it 🙂

^ I meant the 90% of the like 20-30% who play after a week or so.

[fierce moth]

That's quite wonderful if poe 2 can down the crazy level of damage from regular enemies. I like the difficulty of clearing enemies in le so much but I never can do that in poe 2 because it need super expensive gears which I can't afford

[acoustic jungle]

Because it's clear the 90% of the vast majority of people don't care about stupid crusades like the long-term players do, because, as opposed to them, the average person doesn't need to brag about having 10,000 hours on PoE (it's 80% doing slop) (they tell their grannies about it, and it's not cute)

[gilded elm]

Though, I'd wager that opinions do skew more (relative to other games in the same genre) on the extreme side one way or another when it comes to the PoE crowd, which I suspect is a byproduct of the playerbase's long-standing loyalty to the game.

Can be good and bad, the bad being that it often (frequently, IMO) discounts new player sentiment and continues to leave PoE1 in a weird state of player retention where the game fails to capitalize on D4 and to a lesser extent, LE's broader audiences.

Settlers of Kalguur IMO marked the beginning of a potential shift in strategy in PoE where GGG is actually trying to cater to the wider ARPG audience and what we saw was one of their greatest growth moments.

GGG just has this really bad habit of dying on all of the wrong hills. Seems that's slowly changing, though.

[acoustic jungle]

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

#📚┃off-topic message 🤷‍♀️ source: trust me bro

But you're very capable of drawing conclusions yourself, and seeing if the thesis (because that's what it is to an outsider, and I understand) lines up.

[fierce moth]

But I think it's a big honour for EHG which this game company can share the market with GGG. They always 50/50 in my eyes, no winner

[acoustic jungle]

Do you have any reliable information about how much this had to do with Chris' departure?

Such a massive shift doesn't just usually happen. Across multiple sections of the game, no less.

[gilded elm]

I mean, I do of course believe that one's social status in life plays a large role in how they engage with video games and entertainment in general, for sure.

[gilded elm]

I do not. I used to believe Chris was "the Ruthless enjoyer" and maybe he is, but nowadays I'm not so sure. Nowadays I'm less certain about how much Chris "hated" what PoE1 became (whereas now I think Jonathan does actually hate PoE1 lol)

[narrow token]

Those people are moronic. I want a solo queue for M+. Making groups and vetting people is exhausting, getting friends together is a pain, getting declined from groups constantly is demoralizing.

[acoustic jungle]

I see. Not even some rumors/whispers? They can be accurate, if you know how to read between the lines. I probably won't in the case of PoE/GGG, but still.

[twilit mountain]

Just gonna butt in and say that trade being miserable has been one of, if not the, biggest complaint from the community on PoE1 for years now. Trading is an absolutely horrid experience and I don't think the majority would disagree with that, I've seen at least a dozen rather large complaint threads focused around how much trading sucks on every major forum for PoE since I started the game almost 8 years ago.

[gilded elm]

We can infer based on things Chris has said, conversations he's had, videos he's been making recently especially. He's a big fan of the old school D2 gameplay, even before LoD. So his rigidity and supposed preference towards Ruthless-style game design could very well be fact and from that we could infer that he was holding back PoE1 from making all of these recent QoL changes.

[acoustic jungle]

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2025870

Jesus Christ, this looks horrible.

It's 8 years old, yea, but I see what you mean.

[gilded elm]

If I were to go a step further, I might even question why Chris decided to distance himself from game design at all (beyond just being bored of it). Could it possibly be because the game was taking a direction he didn't agree with? (maybe he'd have rather PoE1 stagnated into Ruthless-style gameplay instead of what it's becoming now)

[twilit mountain]

The PoE community has clowned on the trade manifesto post for years, it's a really stupid post

[acoustic jungle]

Suppose our theory is right - Chris was the problem. This should be a lesson of what monopolies do to somebody. Much like Blizzard, because the IP is so strong (and, in both GGG and their case, pretty much have had no competition), they get to do whatever the hell they want, with no consequences. It's not even an adaptation to realizing their position - they're just...just...stupid. Plain 'ol stupid. To not run playerbase-wide tests and check the pulse on these important topics, to take years upon YEAAAAAAAARS to come to the conclusion of basic things.

I used to think, many, many, many years ago that we're missing something. We're not, for the most part. It's just what happens when you don't have competition. Yes, this is just one variable, but arguably one of the most important ones.

[gilded elm]

What I didn't personally expect was that Jonathan was of similar mind as Chris when it comes to to QoL/trading/friction. I wonder if Mark is behind most of the initiative internally for QoL, he's someone who grew up playing the game, competitively even.

[twilit mountain]

Mark is the one who in interviews outright says "yeah that was a mistake" while Jonathan sits there and gets defensive about every little criticism, so I personally think that's pretty telling

[acoustic jungle]

More interestingly - but we're just yapping to yap - it could also be a case of very yolo decision-making, where every voice needs to be heard, and it's done so in a disruptive, unproductive manner, which Blizzard's WoW team (arguably, almost all of them, even those "deployed" to work on upcoming things) is like exactly. Due to this policy, nothing really ever gets done.

"a raid is a major undertaking" - brother. You guys have like a trillion people workikng on it. It shouldn't be.

So, we just can't know, but clearly there was a major shift in PoE's direction.

[gilded elm]

Could be, but I strongly suspect big design decisions at GGG (especially for PoE2) have to be signed off by Jonathan. He seemed very controlling of every design decision that goes on there just based on the strong opinions he's repeatedly expressed when confronted by criticism.

[twilit mountain]

I would much rather have Chris "Feel The Weight" Wilson than Jonathan "Are You Vendoring" Rogers in the end

[acoustic jungle]

Instinctually, I'd read that the same as you.

[gilded elm]

As if they were all of his ideas.

[acoustic jungle]

Better-worded: it's very rare someone like that isn't controlling to a fault.

[gilded elm]

Dunno how I feel about it tbh, but I do kinda think they are basically two different aspects of the same problem, maybe.

Two strongly opinionated people who held all of the control.

And exercised that control, presumably.

[twilit mountain]

Maybe. All I know is that my experience playing a game headed by Chris was more enjoyable than Jonathan and I saw more willingness to compromise under his direction.

[acoustic jungle]

Just to point out: neither style of leadership is inherently bad. But the leaders need to be smart about everything.

Can't just listen to everyone just to listen, can't be rigid just to be rigid.

[gilded elm]

It's a visionary thing, too. Visionaries rarely want to delegate or relinquish even a sliver of control.

They have a vision, they want to stick to it at all costs.

[acoustic jungle]

If we're not talking about someone that's dysfunctional, and just daydreaming, then it's largely because of their positions. Delegation is mandatory if you're in a competitive market and at a certain scale. You just can't do it otherwise. And since neither games had competition, well, again, all the basic "good things to do" suddenly aren't necesarry anymore.

You can't not delegate. Not an option.

[mental talon]

I mean nothing to really infer. I love Chris but the moment Neon got to making mos tof the decision making PoE 1 a lot of the core tenants pretty much disappeared over night. It isn't a mystery as to why. Chris was a big part of the game starting but he's very much in the rigid thinking category and it isn't a secret that certain aspects we get now wouldn't have happened if he was still lead.

[gilded elm]

Yeah, GGG has been in an extremely comfortable position in the market, which has only started to gain some competition. This level of uncompromising conviction would not have worked for them otherwise IMO.

[mental talon]

I think Jonathan takes a burnt of criticism at least but theirs definitely a lot of shit that exists because of him also tbh. Just like any front facing individual it's the good and the bad

[gilded elm]

As soon as "just go play another game" becomes a viable response to their bad takes, that's what people will eventually do. GGG is fortunate that they haven't had strong competitors.

The market is changing, and perhaps that's why we're now seeing the QoL stuff make its way into PoE1/PoE2.

[mental talon]

I like Chris a lot but I remember the early days on the forums/Reddit where it was basically like trying to move a Neutron Star to get certain changes to happen in the game.

[gilded elm]

Yeah, makes me wonder if Chris taking a backseat was really just him accepting that he can't swim against the current. It's only natural to lose your passion and enthusiasm to create something when it's no longer becoming something you want to create.

[acoustic jungle]

It cannot. While true that the game is loved by many, the question we were attacking is "but they'd love it even more, and you'd buy yourself some good will if you weren't Satan-incarnate". And as you said, if you don't, the very second a competitor comes around - cue LE - you're going to be in a verrrrrrrrrry tight spot.

[gilded elm]

And I think I mentioned this the other day too, but it seems possible that PoE2 is starting to head down that road for Jonathan. He's had to compromise a lot on his original vision (largely IMO because they decided to call PoE2 a sequel to PoE1, which established certain expectations), I wonder if PoE2 still resembles the game he initially wanted to create and whether it will continue to become something else and drain his passion/enthusiasm for it.

[acoustic jungle]

Also: which is why I'm so excited about the next 5-10 years. The barrier to entry gets lowered more and more, and once people figure out how to put AI to good use, the sky's the limit - the average person doesn't care that a model doesn't look as great or that an image has many small issues. They just want a half-decent look to their game, and good gameplay. We recently had to look into UE5's tooling and things they give you out of the box, and if we ignore the performance, it's crazy if you compare it to just 5 years ago or so. Still a long ways to go, hence why the 5-10 years timeline.

[twilit mountain]

Oh gods we're back on the AI jerking. I'll come back later.

[acoustic jungle]

My read on the original release of the announcements and their stated goals, and then their decision-making: GGG realizes big zoomzoom around has a limited market. They also found confirmation in the success of soulslikes, but this was a bit of a mistake, because, due to the nature of an ARPG, both by what people came to know it as AND its technical limitations (camera in a certain spot, certain ways of doing skills, etc.), an "soulslike ARPG" just...like...who is that for? Who?

I agree with them, but the execution just seems impossible to get right. We need more meaty, meaningful combat, but they went the annoying route, where you're animation-locked for fun.

[hot crown]

Well, shit.

“The conclusion of the investigation is that the IP rights for ‘Superfuse’ have no value.” (August 25, 2025)

[acoustic jungle]

This is, perhaps, because GGG thinks that people love those souslike bosses because "every move matters" - brother, no, it just feels clunky, but the fight itself is just that good, the atmosphere, etc.

[gilded elm]

There are opposing forces in being fast-paced and souls-like. I think fundamentally the two things tend to be incompatible, depending on how fast-paced, and how much souls-like. It's hard to reconcile the two things.

[acoustic jungle]

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeehxactly, a good tldr.

[gilded elm]

It's basically an identity crisis. D4 is similarly going through an identity crisis (they can't figure out if they're making a game for casuals or for non-casuals), while PoE2 can't decide whether it wants to be Souls-like or a fast-paced hack and slash.

Whereas PoE1 and LE know exactly who their audience is, for the most part.

[narrow token]

I'm going to agree a little bit here. Geonor is quite the spectacle, atmospheric and tense. Jamanra, comparatively, is a let-down. Every act end boss should be as good as the first one.

[acoustic jungle]

Like...yea, let me just look at my homework and do the dishes while the skill finishes animating, all the while my expectations were set by the zoomzooms. Alright, GGG, that's not what I wanted from meaningful combat. Again, they're at odds - how can you POSSIBLY make the combat feel meaningful when you're getting swarmed? You're getting swarmed, and creating a world where you play with ground mechanics, etc., is super expensive to create, as it takes real effort. If they did it, then yea, I could see it: lure that swarm to certain places, make your skills interact in a certain way, etc.

But for however long they'll want big waves of baddies, this cannot happen, and therefore, the concept is not compatible. Which is why, imho, combat with bosses feels x10 better than random mapping.

[gilded elm]

"Adding more depth" to PoE1 isn't even a "should we or should we not" question. Of course, you add more depth. PoE1 is all about game depth. Do the same thing in D4, then you lose casuals who can't engage with that content because it requires more investment from them. And D4 being too shallow means the non-casuals aren't going to play it as much because it's quick to bore.

[fierce moth]

https://www.reddit.com/r/PathOfExile2/s/LTyBYPBNOP

😂 @desert jasper it's what maybe happen if you sprint

[acoustic jungle]

I used to think that the both can coexist - just fix something up for the casuals, because they don't really care, and go badonkers for the tryhards. But the first issue with that is, we just can't help ourselves from not taking the most optimal route, and when you're a casual, and you know there is so much more, you definitely want to give it a go, and then you find out how overwhelming it is.

Which is why, in my opinion, assuming LE can maintain the same level of complexity as they did until now, it genuinely has the potential to be the "best" ARPG.

[gilded elm]

Yeah I think it's rare that a casual player will look at a game and say "I'll just play this small portion of it and be happy" they want the full experience and range of content.

They just want it to be accessible, and once they learn about the barrier, a psychological switch just flips.

[acoustic jungle]

100%, I remember having a discussion with Eagles about it, and he made a great point that I can't recall, but the conclusion was "yea, it's just how it is, and the game has to be designed that way". People are ALWAYS gonna degen stuff if given the opportunity.

[acoustic jungle]

Precisely.

[desert jasper]

Still haven't been knocked down while sprinting

[narrow token]

I have

It sucks

[acoustic jungle]

...man, the more I keep talking about these topics, the more the idea of switching the model to a MMO-like, Uber-like boss every season fixes so many issues. It works so elegantly, instead of adding a new mechanic every goddamn new league, that makes the game exponentially cosmically and other big words complex. Complexity just for the sake of complexity.

[gilded elm]

Degens are gonna degen, so you make a game for degens.

[acoustic jungle]

I do hope LE will go down this route. 1.4 says new endgame bosses and new skill sigils - a problem to solve (the boss), and new augmentation to look forward to.

[acoustic jungle]

That's a bit of a different point, yes, but the point was that, even in "normal" games, people will ALWAYS jump at the most degen way of doing things, if given the chance. Long-term, they'll burn out and leave the game, but they're not thinking about that in the moment.

[narrow token]

There's no guarantee that season 4 will still have skill sigils

[gilded elm]

Rather than trying to cater to different audiences in the same game, they should focus on converting one audience into another.

[acoustic jungle]

I disagree. That's a massssssssssssssssssssssssssssssive risk and a massssssssssssssssssssssssssssive (🐍 ) undertaking.

If you meant converting zoomzoomers from PoE1 to soulslike enjoyers in PoE2?

[gilded elm]

Nah, I mean easing casual players into deeper gameplay mechanics and establishing that the game is deep, rather than removing the depth to cater to casuals (and then slap on an endgame saying "look we have content for non-casuals too")

[acoustic jungle]

That's exactly how it should be done. But I mean, easy to yap about it. How do to that exactly? 😄

Many reasonable ways we can discuss, I'm sure all of them good, but I'm also sure GGG has probably tried? Or...or...so I'd like to hope. Lol.

...yes? They did, right? RIGHT?

[gilded elm]

Yeah PoE1 struggles with bringing in actually new players. No doubt GGG has tried many times to convert players, and I at least respect they haven't dumbed down the game to achieve that.

Honestly I don't know how to bridge that gap, if I did I'd probably be consulting for AAA game devs hahaha. I just know that trying to make a game that caters to multiple audiences pretty much always ends up being a disappointment for everyone in some big way.

LE does some pretty good stuff though in regards to introducing "complex" systems to new players. Crafting is deceptively simple at a surface level, you feel good engaging with it as a new player just picking up shards from campaign. But you eventually discover that it goes deeper, it unravels in a way that clicks and unlocks your brain lol

If I had to identify some traits that make LE crafting a well-designed vehicle for player knowledge from beginner to expert... maybe the fact that it's consolidated all in one place for the most part and just presentation in general.

I wanna say there's gotta be hundreds of game design theory papers written on this or adjacent subjects, but given the state of games today, I'm also skeptical that's the case lol

[acoustic jungle]

You'd be surprised at the lack of procedure, data collection, processes, etc. around decision-making. You'd think that companies have a decent chunk of people working on behaviour research, but unfortunately, even if it's not the case, it's amateur work. Source: trust me bro

[acoustic jungle]

I agree. Unmatched. My only hope - again - is that it'll retain its positives, without introducing downsides.

[acoustic jungle]

1000000000000% a big part. 1000000000000000000000%. Which is why it's so easy to break it.

[acoustic jungle]

https://tenor.com/view/none-thats-how-many-zero-nada-empty-gif-16256703

[tawny sand]

for me it's just i didn't like the trading, but now they're adding async soon(ish) i hope, maybe next league, so I'll prob start playing again. I don't like LE's bazaar system at all, so i usually end up playing CoF even though i prefer trading

[acoustic jungle]

Oh, PoE will have a bazaar. They just didn't finish it for the release of 0.3?

[gilded elm]

How much of "because I don't like trading" mentality comes from an underlying cause, for example, because you would rather not engage with PoE1's vastly complex crafting system?

[acoustic jungle]

And we were talking about a bazaar/Auction House as a baseline better model. Of course, each can have bad things about them. But they're ALWAYS better than whatever the hell that fever dream in PoE1 was.

[tawny sand]

? No, async trading you search it up, sends you directly to the hideout with the item highlighted. It's a good feature.

[acoustic jungle]

They put the video out a few weeks ago where you just browse without any interaction or teleportation. Not implemented yet, this is the best they could do for 0.3.

[gilded elm]

What I mean to ask is, do you feel the same way about LE? Do you craft your own stuff in LE? But in PoE you would much rather trade because crafting in PoE is overly complex?

[acoustic jungle]

Yes. 100%.

[acoustic jungle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q972GGaOMBM

[twilit mountain]

I craft and trade in both

[gilded elm]

What I'm trying to basically suggest is that in PoE1, the demand for trade is partially a byproduct of the complexity of crafting and how most people can't be bothered to learn it.

[acoustic jungle]

Oh, I see what you mean. Yea, they'll get rid of the teleportation. 100% sure it's just a limitation of the current codebase. I skipped over this aspect because it was clear not deliberate, and it will get changed.

[tawny sand]

Oh no i like crafting in both, i don't find poe's complex. I just didn't like the "friction" of poe's trade. I''m not a smart person admittedly in a social way, so those few interactions where I had to talk to people wasn't fun for me lol

[gilded elm]

Ah, I see. It's good to understand your perspective and challenge my assumptions.

[acoustic jungle]

There's zero interaction in PoE's trade for the most part. Like...zero. You just use the button, and you get sent there. Well, not always, but in most cases.

I'd be more interested in how you found ways to interact. Perhaps for high-value, very rare items?

[twilit mountain]

I treat trade like I'm a bot
Put my item in, put your item in, click accept, leave. No messages, no handshakes, no fraternizing. You get your shit, I get mine, we're set here.

[gilded elm]

My assumption was that for a lot of people who seek to engage with trade in PoE, it's more about not wanting to engage with PoE1's vast crafting systems.

[tawny sand]

That''s just the trade website in game now, i don't know what you mean.

[gilded elm]

The requirement for social interaction, however small, is a totally understandable reason to dislike PoE's trading.

[tawny sand]

Yeah I'm not saying it happened every time, but whenever someone tried to negotiate with me or tried to scam (admittedly this was worse in poe2 .1 even) annoyed me and I didn't like it lol

[gilded elm]

And it also puts trading a little bit outside of your control. You have to wait for a response that may come soon, later, or never.

Even if it's just a small inconvenience, it's still an inconvenience that disrupts how you want to play the game.

[tawny sand]

and LE's bazaar i just find really clunky, but I haven't used it since it was introduced

it could be better idk

[gilded elm]

This was a criticism of pre-async trading, I think.

Trading as it still exists in PoE1

Hopefully not for long, hopefully async trading is coming next PoE1 league

[acoustic jungle]

Wait, sorry, I might be lost. We were talking about how trade in PoE2 is now exponentially better due to the bazaar.

[twilit mountain]

Still very clunky they just made price checking marginally better

[acoustic jungle]

In terms of baseline functionality, LE's bazaar is the same as PoE2's. And they'll 100% remove that need to teleport to someone's hideout.

[gilded elm]

The "friction" is basically referring to having to whisper, wait for a response and teleport yourself, the trading as it still exists in PoE1 is I think what they were referring to.

[acoustic jungle]

Aaaaaaaaah, right. Yea.

I'm like 150% certain this will be coming to PoE1, too.

[gilded elm]

It will, just unclear when. Might not be next league, but I hope it is.

[acoustic jungle]

Actually.

Given PoE1 is on borrowed time - it was clear from the second they announced PoE2 - unless some miracle happens, and PoE1 still maintains the same number of players despite the upcoming and obvious slower schedule of releases, it will happen.

[twilit mountain]

My way of handling this is that if their "negotiation" is within like 20% of the price (assuming it isn't something obnoxiously high in value) then I just click accept. Like, oh no, I lost out on a few divines. Oh well. Scams I just boot from party immediately. No excuses, no nonsense.

[acoustic jungle]

Otherwise, I don't think GGG is too excited about putting too many resources into PoE1.

[twilit mountain]

If they drop PoE1 I'm pretty sure they lose a lot of revenue and PoE2 players

[acoustic jungle]

So...uh...the bazaar probably isn't coming to PoE1 anytime soon...? Unless it's easy to port the code?

[gilded elm]

I'm betting that GGG's recurring revenue still largely comes from MTX driven from PoE1 purchases.

[acoustic jungle]

For sure. This is for the long-term.

They created PoE2 for a reason, after all. We can never know but the default expectation should be that, relatively "short", PoE1 will switch to maintenance mode.

[gilded elm]

PoE1 players and GGG have "an understanding" at this point haha. It's like clockwork. Put out a league, loyalists will buy the support packs every time.

[twilit mountain]

I haven't bought a damn thing for PoE2 specifically. Anything I have in it is tangentially there because I bought it in PoE1

[acoustic jungle]

Not a prediction or anything, but I mean...just how things work. Well, if both games work - great for them, but you shouldn't expect that.

[tawny sand]

i think the only poe2 specific thing i bought was the socketables tab

[twilit mountain]

I have 37 generic premium tabs, I don't need it xdd

[gilded elm]

Right now, PoE2 development is (in?)directly benefiting PoE1 (not as much as if GGG was full throttle on PoE1, but still). Who knows how long that continues, though.

[acoustic jungle]

Now you guys are reminding me about how this season's LE MTX is uber trash, and how I wish it were just me, but just can't see how many people would like them (no flashy things for the most part, tldr), and how it's gonna be a very bad look that, the patch they get acquired, ends up being a bad conversion one. Hopefully I'm super wrong 💀

[gilded elm]

Their engine is being updated, PoE1 can receive engine backports and stay up-to-date techwise, lowering the long-term maintenance and development burden as a consequence as well.

[tawny sand]

also speaking of socketables, i'm dying for some phys damage runes. I've only found two so far i think

[acoustic jungle]

That's what they said, yes! I hoppppppppppppppppeeeeee it's true. If true, then my thesis is invalid, and PoE1 will just be kept alive for a very long time.

[gilded elm]

Yeah I don't think PoE1 will die a "tech death" so-to-speak.

[acoustic jungle]

Practically, it dies on GGG's decisions to either support it or not, because, if their cycles are at least one month apart, both games will have players, at least for the foreseeable future.

[twilit mountain]

My friend scammed me into playing PoE2 this patch with a thorns build. I wasn't going to, but thorns is too funny not to.

[gilded elm]

Thought about doing this too. Seems like Titan is like the only class doing it? Am I wrong?

[tawny sand]

lol

[twilit mountain]

Warbringer here

[acoustic jungle]

Long-term, however, given PoE2 looks better, and is the "favorite child" (at least in theory), it's almost certain it'll receive so many more meaningful updates, that PoE1 won't be able to keep up.

Point is, nobody should be surprised if they decide to slow down on PoE in 3-or-so years.

2 greater than 1, the very long version tldr 😄

[gilded elm]

It remains to be seen how wide the game design gap stays between PoE1 and PoE2. If the gap remains as large as it is now, PoE1 players will by and large keep playing PoE1 and continue to generate demand for it to be worth GGG's time.

But we're seeing that slowly, the gap is closing between PoE1 and PoE2. It's still very slow and the two are wildly different games.

I like to imagine it as: the more PoE2 becomes like PoE1, the sadder Jonathan becomes.

[acoustic jungle]

Not sure how I'd feel about that. Clearly, GGG identified real issues. But the solution just isn't fun. Like, I know everyone would have more fun if what you pressed mattered, but - again - just don't think the solution is animation-locking people 24/7.

To be honest, it's not even animation-locking that's a major issue. It can be fun, if done well. It's the swarming.

Not sure what the issue is, but there's a clear disconnect in what you're seeing, what you're expecting to happen, etc. when getting swarmed.

With that in mind, my opinion is that the game must feel way better with a controller.

[gilded elm]

I gotta agree with a lot of sentiment I've seen regarding GGG's obsession with Kiss-Curse design in PoE2. The obsessive use of "downsides" are mind boggling and completely ignore the obvious downside that is the opportunity cost of choosing something else.

[acoustic jungle]

In terms of combat?

[gilded elm]

In general, everything. Passive tree design, skill gem design, etc.

[acoustic jungle]

Ah, sorry. No DEEEEEEEEP insight into everything but combat.

Because, if combat isn't right, nothing is right.

Nobody's ever, EVER going to put up with the game long-term if the combat's ass.

It's not ass, just saying. It just has...well, it's different, but I think in a bad way.

[gilded elm]

Basically GGG has this aggressive need to complement every upside with a severe downside to counter balance the upside, adding weight and consequence to your decision. GGG doesn't seem to consider opportunity cost high enough of a price to pay.

[acoustic jungle]

Yes, that's obvious from like level one, I didn't think it's that prevalent. This is an issue am taking with so, so many developers - that they vastly underestimate the price of the opportunity cost.

Like...bruh, I already paid in blood, why take my leg as well? Let me be.

Again, feels like making crap annoying just to make it annoying, and say it's "hardcore".

[gilded elm]

Yeah, I'd much rather have the upside be "weaker" to offset the need for a crippling downside to be paired with it. Stop playing mind tricks with me.

[mental talon]

Yeah I mean the kiss curse design of PoE2's passive tree is pretty stupid as well as a lot of nodes being bad/uninteresting (which obv will change with time). Despite having in my opinion a far better passive tree in PoE 1 I think one of the main strengths is you don't look at Notables and think "Damn pathing here takes forever and I lose X benefit now" you just start thinking about how to efficiently path and the like.

[gilded elm]

Yeah, it's a total slap in the face. You often are spending a ton of points just to path there and that's a huge opportunity cost you're paying just to get that node, only to be confronted with a ridiculous downside.

[acoustic jungle]

Wait, so it's not just me that felt that. I didn't play super endgame, so, I thought it gets better.

[mental talon]

But yeah there'll always be an audience for PoE 1 it isn't going anywhere anytime unless they literally turn the servers off. PoE 1 is still in my opinion the best ARPG to ever exist and as long as it's supported I'll play it (and PoE 2 if it keeps getting patches and leagues, I genuinely do enjoy this league but I'll be the first to say the balance is ass)

I also personally am not a fan of how restricted so many skills are to weapons (yes some should obviously be specific like a Lightning Arrow etc) as one of my favorite things about PoE 1 is just looking at a skill and thinking of weird ways to make it work

[gilded elm]

Also, psychologically it just feels bad even if you can justify the reasoning for it. Just think you find something really cool that potentially changes your build in cool or interesting ways, then you read the fat downside that comes with it and it's just a vibe killer. Now repeat this for basically everything in the game.

[mental talon]

Yeah some of it is just stupid, some of it is thematic, and some of it does make sense sure. I think the passive tree has way too many travel nodes still, and not enough interesting clusters (their are definitely better ones now but we need more)

[gilded elm]

I would've much rather that node just be weaker without a downside so my brain isn't giving me false hope up to the moment I read about the downside lol

It's like one of those "read the fineprint" things and who truly wants to do that

[mental talon]

Also put Health back on the freaking passive tree this ain't it

[acoustic jungle]

Can I just say that, up until level 40 or so, most of my nodes just felt like maintenance? Regardless of the reason, it shouldn't feel that way. Like, if I put in a point, I should feel like I got more powerful at least half the time.

[mental talon]

I never realized how good I had it with the PoE 1 passive tree until now

[gilded elm]

On the upside, seems like life builds are doing better this league?

[mental talon]

Yeah I mean I think the Bloodmage spec is the current strongest build in the game because of some really stupid interactions

Passive Tree just needs to be way more interesting and weird like PoE 1

[gilded elm]

Yeah, progression often doesn't feel meaningful or... "progressive." Just sidegrades where the most meaningful sense of progression largely comes from getting more gem slots and getting gear upgrades.

[acoustic jungle]

I see. Well, was hoping it gets better.

Like, I KNOOOOOOOOOW PoE is this game where those crazy builds are enabled by those tiny knobs in the tree, I do, but it just doesn't feel great 😭

[gilded elm]

Don't get me wrong, the passive tree, support gems, despite the "downsides" attached to them, there are "good" choices to be made. It just makes the decision-making feel bad, even if you are progressing.

[acoustic jungle]

Yes, in PoE1, I was excited to level up, 'cause I knew that, for the most part, things just become a tiny bit easier/my build becomes smoother, but with PoE2, it's not the case. Of course, this is 100% build-dependent, so, keep that in mind.

But I thought about the build aspect, and looking at most points...uh...I can't see how that's not the case for most builds.

[gilded elm]

Yeah making a build in PoE2 from scratch without a planner already made for it feels bad because your moments of growth feel insignificant outside of major gear upgrades and adding additional slots to skill gems. There's still meaningful progress, it's just doesn't feel that way. Now if you have a planner and a goal you are working towards, that would probably feel different/better.

Organic build making in PoE2 feels bad though, for the most part.

[mental talon]

But tl;dr balance is ass (which isn't surprising), crafting is actually good now, passive tree still weak, I'm having fun and I'll definitely play it between PoE 1 leagues now at this rate.

[gilded elm]

Going back to combat though, the combat feel is top notch. So the actual gameplay is mostly great IMO.

Something about how PoE2 is making combat feel impactful, weighty, really feels good.

[mental talon]

I don't even know if the combat is good because I've just killed everything since level 1 without much resistance lmao

[acoustic jungle]

Thankfully (another idiotic decision by GGG, btw, to not allow you to easily respec), gold is easy to come by, and you can just respec. But I see what you mean. With a build ready, you know what the end-goal is, and you can stomach the level-to-level lack of interesting action.

[gilded elm]

Yeah, your expectations are different, you know what your milestones for power increases are.

[mental talon]

Galvanic Shards brain off and hold W

[acoustic jungle]

We disagree heavily, to the point that there's no resolution between us, then. And that's ok. But getting swarmed is in no way fun. Are you, perhaps, playing "one of the builds"?

'Cause I just can't resolve this issue in my mind where getting swarmed, you being animation-locked, etc. feels anywhere close to great.

[gilded elm]

I don't find that I dislike getting swarmed. I dislike getting swarmed without counterplay, for sure. There is a bug atm where you can get swarmed without good counterplay which should be getting fixed in the next patch.

[acoustic jungle]

If they fix that, then like 80% of the issues I have with combat are gone. Perhaps some builds sidestep that?

But to me, the moment a pack of mobs becomes dangerous, gameplay feels super clunky.

[gilded elm]

Basically what Kirra mentioned yesterday or the day before about not being able to dodge roll out of swarms (this was an issue back in 0.1 that got fixed but somehow came back in 0.3).

[acoustic jungle]

Oh, yea, I remember. HOLYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY 0.1 WAS AWFUL BECAUSE OF IT I DON'T EVEN WANNA REMEMBER.

It made me drop the game right there and then.

[gilded elm]

The scarabs

[acoustic jungle]

And for a new person, one not following a build, it just...like...you just died for fun.

The other side of combat is just how mobs don't really respond to what you're pressing. If they fixed that by reducing the amount of mobs and making spells actually impact them, then combat would feel really great.

Right now, you have this meaty hammer-onto-the-ground animation. Whatever it's called. Right, but when you press it, it feels like the mobs inherently should be pushed back by a lot, EVEN if it's not balanced.

Otherwise, you're just...you're just pressing the button mindlessly.

[gilded elm]

It's hard for me to pinpoint what about PoE2's combat feels more impactful than other ARPGs, I know it's more than just the SFX. PoE2 does have certain pronounced impact animations, such as staggered/stunned enemies, this contributes to the feel as well. Most ARPGs have basic "enemy being hit" visual which is usually just a blink/flash on the enemy model (accompanied by equally basic SFX)

[acoustic jungle]

That's very weird, then. Because in my opinion, that's exactly what's missing - the actual feedback on the enemies.

There is a little bit of it, yea, but not enough.

[gilded elm]

Directional control mid-dodge roll is another one that makes combat feel surprisingly much more interesting to me as well.

Combat in PoE2 feels more "asynchronous" in that you can do multiple things at the same time. Moving while attacking, changing direction while dodging, etc.

[acoustic jungle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgVLefzrtjg&t=1188s - check this out, yea? If the mobs were pushed back, then yea, it'd feel great. The reason this is "problematic" is, when getting swarmed, you're literally just smashing the button, and the build carries you - it feels like you're just pressing the spell to press it.

[acoustic jungle]

If they made it just 20-30% faster, it'd feel perfect, but that's just my opinion.

It's just too often that I feel I'm locked inside an animation, and it ends up being frustrating.

1. Fix getting caught by the swarm.
2. Increase feedback on enemies.
3. Reduce the animation times by like 20-30%.
   3.1 Make combos reduce each other's cast times, etc.

Is my wishlist.

For example, if I'm dodge-rolling, and I press Shield Charge, the game should just pick up on that, and proceed to Shield Charge immediately, making it smooth - no need to wait for the dodge to finish.

For the sprinting animation, I reallllllly like that you start being faster before you get up. Sure, it's not realistic, but if they increased it just a tiny bit, it'd feel so good. If your SPACEBAR is pressed when the animation is at like 50%, just make it to faster, and transition to sprinting faster.

[gilded elm]

Haha, I don't think GGG is a fan of things like animation cancelling in PoE2 because "consequences"

[acoustic jungle]

...man, I hate that you're probably right.

I'm not saying the above is correct to do, just saying it'd maintain their desire for the combat to feel meaty and meaningful, while making it feel smooth.

[gilded elm]

Yeah, "commitment" (to your choices, in this case playing out a potentially bad dodge roll) seems to be a core principle of PoE2 combat design. Part of it being "methodical"

At best (and this may already be the case) I see them just adding the skill invocation to the skill queue.

[acoustic jungle]

But what I side doesn't mess with it? Like, at all? You're still dodging. It just has this nuance and interaction to it. I'm not killing the messenger, I know you're just saying what GGG will most likely do.

They did it with sprinting - if you get stopped by terrain, you can just dodge-roll to get out of it.

[gilded elm]

Yeah but you're not actually cancelling an animation in that case as far as I'm aware.

[acoustic jungle]

I understand the distinction, yes, I just hope they did this because it felt good, not because of the need to respect an "absolute" rule.

Combat doesn't need to be fully realistic for it to feel good is the crux of my proposal, and I'd love to see a version with those changes baked in.

[gilded elm]

This maybe relates back to the whole trying to reconcile methodical, Souls-like combat philosophy with typical ARPG gameplay.

[acoustic jungle]

There's also something else I'd love to see, but probably will never happen. You see how Leap is used to close the gap, even if it's super short. If you have Leap slotted in, the game could see that, and it should make your Melee-based attacks lunges if you keep them pressed. It just feels really bad to jump 10 meters ahead just because it's the optimal thing to do.

[acoustic jungle]

It does. In my opinion, at least theoretically, the ideas from above close the gap further, or at least should massively help.

[gilded elm]

Closing the gap? I can already imagine Jonathan clenching his fists. No, none of that. You will be methodical with every action you take.

Does Path of Building support Deflection yet?

Ah okay, I see there's a note on Deflection-related nodes which answers my question lol

[junior stirrup]

Red text always meant unsupported, they universally gained the textual explanation recently to help exiles who could read to understand.

This talks about the mod in particular, it doesn't necessarily exclude deflection as a concept.

[gilded elm]

Yeah, I just did a dumb dumb and asked here before checking the passive tree myself hah

[jade jackal]

man, this enemy's arrow effect is a little overboard

[tawny sand]

@gilded elm have you tried ricochet on poisonburst? it bouncing off the terrain is pretty nice.

[gilded elm]

Sorta, not fully. I think I tried a passive node, but not the support gems

[tawny sand]

ah gotcha, i put on ricochet 2 and it seems alright so far

ricochet 3 seems cool too possibly, but i don't have any extra projectile modifiers

[acoustic jungle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Nxh-Clbdds - this was recently replicated in one game called "Fellowship", and this specific issue, paired with the other things we talked about, is what makes WoW's combat so good. There's actually a ~1s global cooldown in which you are locked from doing anything else, but I swear you don't feel it because of these, and not everything is on that global cooldown. To contrast to the "Evil Jonathan" theory, Blizzard understood that not everything should lock you, not everything should be a tradeoff, and that some things...uh...just feel good, and did any of these actions lose meaning? Nope.

[gilded elm]

This is similar to why I basically dislike WASD in ARPGs in general. For any build that would require more than just the binds available on a mouse, WASD feels bad.

I mean that's one reason, the other is that WASD doesn't feel "normal" to me in an isometric perspective.

[sand wigeon]

This is entirely personal preference, I do just want to put that out there

[gilded elm]

But yeah I take the point that PoE2 could feel more asynchronous/higher APM with some design changes. There is some unnecessary downtime in the combat flow.

[sand wigeon]

Your comfortable-level with MnK is also heavily reliant on what games you play regularly

I played Destiny 2 for many years, and that involves using WASD, control, shift and often E or Q all at once constantly

So having binds on other buttons in a WASD ARPG is no issue for me, since I’m used to it, whereas moving with a mouse is what feels weird

[gilded elm]

Q and E are decent binds for a WASD first person game, but you do gotta admit they leave you vulnerable to the inability to strafe left/right.

[acoustic jungle]

I'm not good at imagination, but I think the changes above can only be benefits.

[sand wigeon]

They don’t

They’re the default ability buttons in D2, so it’s a button press, not a hold

If you use hold or something like lean in R6 Siege they do

[gilded elm]

If you finger on A moves to Q, then it's no longer on A and thus there is a cost to move your finger back to A in order to strafe left, in concept at least.

[sand wigeon]

Yeah, it’s just that you can execute it fast enough if it’s a one button thing that it’s no real problem, thankfully

[acoustic jungle]

Which is why mfs who can bend their hand to a 45 degree angle and their keyboards at varying degrees in all directions have a huge advantage. Suddenly, they have double the buttons LMAO

[sand wigeon]

But in Tarkov for example, I either put lean on toggle or on my mouse because of the loss of strafe

[gilded elm]

Even a button press still has a cost (albeit a small one) to reposition back from Q to A and re-enable your ability to strafe (left in this case)

[sand wigeon]

There are some hold abilities for the grenades (Q) but the abilities are designed to never be used in combat, face to face, so the devs did well there too

[sand wigeon]

I mean I can just press them both with one finger

So

[acoustic jungle]

"wait how were you able to tell I don't use WASD?"
Bro's hands while asking me that question with a straight face:

[gilded elm]

I mean Q and E are still very ideal binds for a WASD first or third person over the shoulder game, but there is a cost to it even if small.

[sand wigeon]

It also depends on your keyboard

The nicer your keyboard, the harder it’ll be to press both

Since they’re usually larger

Whereas I’ve been using the same tiny $20 keyboard for ten years

[acoustic jungle]

On GOD, once I figured out some better setups for my keybinds for WoW, my hand stopped hurting. Wooting's software also made it very easy because you can select each button's attenuation point (basically how hard you need to press for it to register).

[sand wigeon]

WoW…

[acoustic jungle]

The problem with QE and is that you need to lift your fingers up. But they are very good binds.

[gilded elm]

Yeah attenuation is another factor that could reduce the disadvantage that moving your finger between keys normally poses

[sand wigeon]

I think the only action game I’ve preferred mouse movement with is Runescape, because the tile system means using WASD is just worse

[acoustic jungle]

Yes, and Wooting has so many more settings so that you can customize your experience. Downright illegal in competitive games, Valve ruled so.

[sand wigeon]

Again, some people don’t need to lift their fingers up, I can hit A and Q and D and E at the same time

I know you have me blocked but still

[gilded elm]

Yeah certain keyboards are banned in competitive events

Because of things like attenuation adjustment capability specifically

The sensitivity at which the keypress registers

Because even for such a short distance between Q and A (or E and D), it's still an enormous competitive advantage in the right hands.

[acoustic jungle]

Yes, I meant to say that, in practice, QE being so close makes it barely unnoticeable, but the movement is still weird. However, QE is not a thing for those games, except Valorant, where I think Wooting's stuff is allowed, because it's not that big an impact. But in CS? Crazy. Valve specifically banned this "continuous, but actually responsive press" tech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYPv99L6rTs

[gilded elm]

We're talking competitive players who can perceive frame rates far above even the most degen gamers.

[acoustic jungle]

For WASD only games, where movement is critical (so, like every shooter), this is crazy.

[sand wigeon]

This is not how humans work lol

[twilit mountain]

Everyone sees the same shit framerate-wise, it's just training to react to things faster.

[acoustic jungle]

This was a shock to me, btw. I watched a streamer, and he didn't notice a micro-stutter. Most people in their chat didn't either, and they were like "bro u good?", and I clipped it, slowed it down, and there was micro-stutter that, to my eyes, were so obvious, that it was jarring. Turns out, virtually nobody perceives those micro things, but some people do.

(I'm not special, I just have a neurological thing, one of its expressions is this)

I then found out a lot of people naturally perceive these things.

[tawny sand]

oh sick. i just found this.

[sand wigeon]

It’s also possible they just ignored it or selectively filtered it out

I’ve played games that have poor optimization and micro stutter occasionally, and I’ve grown used to ignoring them or selectively filtering it out

[gilded elm]

Perceiving higher frame rates means faster recognition, it's separate from acting (reaction) on that information, but paired with good reaction it compounds into competitive advantage. Having a keyboard that even goes further (e.g. snap tap) it all adds up.

Imagine your frame rate perception is lower than another person. You see less of the "in between" frames. This absolutely makes a difference.

[acoustic jungle]

Not knowledgeable enough to know what those things mean or how they interact, sorry. I was told that except a few people, virtually nobody perceives those events.

And then I discovered it, and - as you say - those things in the hands of those people...I mean, how do you compete?

[sand wigeon]

You can compete just fine

[acoustic jungle]

I imagine that this is trainable, because most of these people aren't "natural talent".

[gilded elm]

The keyboard is what really makes the difference, for sure. The other stuff is more minute and usually insignificant, but the difference exists.

[acoustic jungle]

And then I also wonder how much is it an issue of consciously registering it vs. processing it. I'm sure everyone processes it (or not sure what the word is, but the image goes through your brain, you just don't do anything with it).

[sand wigeon]

Some of the best player’s I’ve ever met for extremely high level games have been people playing on awful hardware and with low FPS

The more and more modern competitive games are designed around strategy and team play the more these differences disappear

[gilded elm]

It's not like the game is "slow motion" just because someone perceives less frame-by-frame transitions. Everyone's still seeing the game play out at the same speed. Some people are simply seeing fewer frames.

[sand wigeon]

I am talking to a brick wall nevermind

[acoustic jungle]

Exactly how the situation was explained to me. I...think?

[gilded elm]

Imagine a fast moving object on a screen, played out at different frame rates. A lot of people will not perceive the difference even when it's drastic. To most of us, we can clearly see when something fast moving has been rendered at say, 60 frames per second. It's obvious because we can tell there are clearly "missing frames" between each frame transition, depending on how fast this object is moving.

[sand wigeon]

Most people can tell the difference between 30, 60, 120 and 240 frames when played side by side

Some old people may not be able to

What you seem to be getting mixed up is that people adjust to the framerate they play at

I have played competitive shooters at 30 FPS and performed really well because I had grown used to it and it stopped mattering as much

But we’re in an age in technology and game design where tons of people can be on tons of different frame rates

And the actual issue comes from when someone else is playing at a much higher frame rate than you

And this contributes to an issue in general of casual players, the core audience of any game, slowly dying out

[gilded elm]

Most people will adjust, and 60 is easy to adjust from and it becomes clear afterward. It becomes less and less clear the higher you go. I personally cannot tell the difference between 120 and 165 played side by side. That's a whole 45 frames worth of motion data I don't get to perceive and act on (if I was at all any good).

[sand wigeon]

Because how are you supposed to have fun playing something when you’re losing just because some person decided they should spend thousands to play this game

[sand wigeon]

That’s an age thing, sweetheart.

Younger people can inherently perceive more frames because their brains have degraded less. I’m sure in ten year’s time I won’t be able to, and in another ten after that it likely won’t matter to me at all.

There’s more reasons than just familiarity that most competitive players in video games are young/practically children.

[gilded elm]

Gee, thanks lol

[acoustic jungle]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flicker_fusion_threshold AYO THIS IS TOO COMPLEX I'M BAILING

[sand wigeon]

I mean, it’s true?

[gilded elm]

Although I would say that when I say "seeing fewer frames" that's probably not correct. I mean to say "processing fewer frames" that is not being able to tell the difference between one frame and the next. Your eyes see it, your brain just can't discern the tiny differences between two near identical frames.

[sand wigeon]

Like quite a few competitive players have spoken on how, despite them growing more familiar and skilled in a game, over the years they have simply degraded thanks to age

It’s why competitive games should always prioritize proactive gameplay and not reactive gameplay

[gilded elm]

I mean yeah, age has certainly gotta be a big factor in all this. If we argue on the basis of a level playing field with regards to competitive fitness like age, health etc, then sure. But I don't think it should be so readily dismissed as being a non-existent advantage.

[sand wigeon]

I disagree

[acoustic jungle]

You mean to say age is not that big an advantage as people make it out to be?

And, therefore, old farts like us shouldn't be so easily dismissed?

[sand wigeon]

If you unblocked me maybe you wouldn’t have to guess at the context lol

[gilded elm]

Haha, nah age is definitely an advantage when it comes to anything reaction-based IMO. But I think there are factors beyond age that can exist among a competitive demographic where this could be an advantage and therefore not so easily dismissed as non-existent. I mean I take ADHD stimulant medication, granted I'm "old" but certainly it affects my brain chemistry in very interesting ways.

[sand wigeon]

And I smoke a cigarette and drink whiskey before playing my ranked Valorant match. We’re not so different, you and I.

[acoustic jungle]

Sorry, I'm clearly missing context here. Just thought the discussion was about how just age on its own (and, therefore, "degradation") is a big thing, and I was gonna say that, although I can't provide any empirically verifiable data (but it might exist), we supported the technical implementation and actual analysis for a campaign on practically an entire country for this very issue, but perhaps, due to its specifics, it's not applicable. Anyways, the conclusion was that age, unless we're talking about ~45+ really doesn't degrade your reaction times that much. We saw a greater degradation on the coordination side, but not catastrophically.

Not sure how those percentages would translate to pro gameplay. But I am curious to see how the current generation of top-performing players who are nearing 30 are gonna do down the line.

Which is why I'm very curious about Faker specifically, because he's nearing 30, and is still arguably one of the best players around. Sure, League is not CS.

[sand wigeon]

Thankfully, both League and CS suck.

[acoustic jungle]

Remember, just because those guys aren't the literal World Champions, it doesn't mean they're no longer pros. Too many variables play into being the literal #1.

[gilded elm]

I think you might have someone blocked and that's why you're missing context lol.

But yeah for aging competitive players, I wouldn't expect a sharp degradation in performance because such people keep their honed instincts sharp day to day, as opposed to an aged player freshly entering the scene.

As far as factors outside of age and why I think a player's honed ability to perceive over another shouldn't be dismissed as a potential advantage is because drugs like stimulants are common place in esports scenes.

[acoustic jungle]

Ah, that's a great point. Absolutely right, of course. It's crazy that there's no concept of "doping" in esports, but I suppose it's just because the field isn't mature enough.

[gilded elm]

I don't think whether such things are prescribed or not is the real issue either, just the fact that they exist in both forms (both legal and illegal) is enough to give weight to the consideration IMO.

[sand wigeon]

There is absolutely that concept. Some guy died in 1943 while doping during a chess tournament. He snorted two pounds of coke.

[gilded elm]

For Chess at least, Adderall is apparently classified as a PED (Performance Enhancing Drug) by Anti-Doping orgs. Esports is just a much newer scene.

If you search "esports stimulants" on Google, I think the unregulated prevalence of it within various esports scenes should become self-evident. We're also talking about people who take it legitimately as medication, not just abusers.

[sand wigeon]

Yeah, it’s an issue of the scene being new and trying not to be exclusionary.

[real kayak]

I'm competitive at chain smoking and cleaning when I snort Adderall.

[acoustic jungle]

Fredo Bang pilled. If you know, you know 😭

[sand wigeon]

LMAO

[gilded elm]

Haha, I don't know about the snorting or chain smoking thing, but my medication for my ADHD brain specifically just makes my brain feel more normal, rather than giving me superpowers or anything like that. Of course, I had to find the right dose. (Also in my case, I take Vyvanse, not Adderall)

[sand wigeon]

I was supposedly diagnosed with ADHD but I am 99% sure I do not have it.

[gilded elm]

Off meds = I would rather die than wash the dishes, do laundry, etc
On meds = Fine, maybe I'll wash the dishes, do laundry, etc depending on how I feel

[sand wigeon]

@twilit mountain You wanna say anything here

[gilded elm]

People have a hard time understanding when I tell them I just can't do something no matter how much I know I should. They often confuse it with laziness.

[sand wigeon]

That’s called executive dysfunction

[gilded elm]

Btw if you have ADHD friends, please don't call them lazy. Please.

[sand wigeon]

I’m a bad person and even I’d never do that lol

Some people are really, truly awful

[twilit mountain]

Thanks, parents, for berating me for my "laziness" my entire life, it helped me sooooo much

[gilded elm]

Right? We already have childhood trauma from our parents constantly calling us lazy heh

[sand wigeon]

Should’ve just been born to better parents /s

[twilit mountain]

Truuuue

[sand wigeon]

I can’t say mine are the best about my own disorders, though they aren’t ADHD

[twilit mountain]

Your mom at least tries her best

[gilded elm]

Yeah, I think a willingness to understand is the most you can hope out of anyone who's never experienced what you experience. I'm sure I've offended people in my ignorance before, unintentionally of course.

[sand wigeon]

That’s true

My father does not

Or, if he does, his best is not good enough

[twilit mountain]

I have no ignorance, my brain is full of immeasurable amounts of knowledge, trust

[sand wigeon]

It’s really the possible personality disorders my mother’s side of the family has problems with

[sand wigeon]

I am perfect in every way and any improvement in myself would be a flat plane

[twilit mountain]

I'm like the One Piece version of Einstein I don't remember his name rn

[sand wigeon]

It was probably Einstein T. Luffy or something

[twilit mountain]

Vegapunk, that's it

[gilded elm]

nice tongue

lol that background

thanks Google images

I hate to admit it, but every once in a while I restart One Piece from episode 1, hoping "this time, I will watch the whole thing" and give up a couple hundred episodes in lmao

[sand wigeon]

Thank you jpg

[gilded elm]

Why do I not just resume where I left off? Shut up

[sand wigeon]

Hoping? You should be dreading

[twilit mountain]

He has an endlessly expanding brain (which he surgically transplanted into a like, laboratory? Somehow?)

[sand wigeon]

You could spend that time watching much better shows

Like the Girl from the Other Side

Or Dungeon Meshi

[sand wigeon]

Or just reading the manga

[twilit mountain]

The solution to One Piece is you just...don't watch it. The manga is already hard to catch up to and it is a lot quicker on average to read a chapter of it than it is to watch an episode

[gilded elm]

Oh Dungeon Meshi is "Delicious in Dungeon" (Eng title) and yeah I just kinda forgot about it after I watched a few episodes on Netflix

[twilit mountain]

Dungeon Meshi goes hard

Idk why it got translated to that, I'm pretty sure it's literally "Dungeon Meals"

[sand wigeon]

DUNGEON MEEESHI

DUNGEON MESHI

AH… DUNGEON MESHI

^ same vibes as kosm

[gilded elm]

Maybe it's the formula, or the build up was too slow. I mean eating monsters is cool, but I just needed more lol

Maybe I just didn't give it a good solid chance

[sand wigeon]

Do you prefer action

Because Dungeon Meshi isn’t really action

It’s closer to mystery / slice of life

[gilded elm]

Nah that's the thing, I can totally watch slice of life type stuff, or less actiony stuff like Classroom of the Elite no problem lol

[sand wigeon]

Isn’t that literally an action series

[gilded elm]

I wouldn't call it action tbh

[twilit mountain]

Aye that's fair. Eventually they do fight a dragon, and have really weird encounters with some other things, but it is mostly built around exploring the world and creatures.

[sand wigeon]

Oh

No I’m dumb

[twilit mountain]

Were you thinking Assassination Classroom?

[sand wigeon]

Yeah idk why

Tired

[gilded elm]

More like a 4D chess "haha got you" kinda like Code Geass but without the action.

[sand wigeon]

Well Code Geass sucks so

[twilit mountain]

Even that's only action like... half the time? A third?

[gilded elm]

[twilit mountain]

Nah, it's a good series, it does have some flaws though, every series does.

[sand wigeon]

I would think of some anime to actually recommend, but I don’t watch much anime

I prefer reading for action-y kind of stuff and watching shows for comedy

[twilit mountain]

It's not really my style, but I do appreciate the writing of it

[sand wigeon]

So I’m not familiar enough

[sand wigeon]

I was being sardonic

Dw

[gilded elm]

I don't like Code Geass' art style, but I dig the writing yeah

[sand wigeon]

I really love The Girl from the Other Side (I prefer the manga, since the anime has substantial differences in style) but IDK

And when I say differences in style I mean that the manga has dialogue and the anime doesn’t basically

[gilded elm]

Another manga unfaithfully adapted to anime? 😭

[twilit mountain]

-looks at Blue Exorcist-

[gilded elm]

Anime is my preferred medium, so I always hate hearing how the manga was poorly adapted

I prefer to go into something knowing it was faithful to the source because the source material is considered the best version usually.

[sand wigeon]

No, it’s very faithful and very well done

The Girl from the Other Side is just a really interesting project

[twilit mountain]

Trigun's adaptation, the 90s one, hurts me to my core with how much it fumbled.

[sand wigeon]

The anime style still really suits it and it’s still really faithful

https://tenor.com/view/the-girl-from-the-other-side-shiva-sensei-gif-8532975521754972155

Oh right

No embeds

[twilit mountain]

L

[sand wigeon]

I’ll cry

[twilit mountain]

Steam's drunk, it's redownloading the PoE2 patch that I just downloaded

[sand wigeon]

Meanwhile Stampede being the best 3D animation I’ve ever seen

[gilded elm]

Oh, so it wasn't adapted differently out of corporate necessity, then. Well that's good at least

[sand wigeon]

Yeah

It was just a different art choice

They’re both good, I just prefer the gothic/eldritch horror of the manga

[gilded elm]

I can respect visionary changes in adaptations because it better suits the target medium.

[sand wigeon]

For sure

I think adding voice acting for the main character’s would have been far worse

[sand wigeon]

Thank you Stampede for amazing art

[gilded elm]

Ain't no way you're buying hard copy mangas, are you? Assuming not, is there a popular service or something through which you manga enjoyers are consuming volumes?

[sand wigeon]

The Girl from the Other Side is freely available online on the creator’s website

[twilit mountain]

I buy hard copies of things I really like. I have three of the new special edition releases of Trigun Maximum

[sand wigeon]

https://thegirlfromtheotherside.com/

[gilded elm]

Ah wow. So it's just literal scans of the hard copy pages or something?

[sand wigeon]

I’m pretty sure it was digitally drawn

[gilded elm]

Oh well if it's the creator, then probably it's all from the source I guess. Not printed and scanned after the fact

[sand wigeon]

But I would absolutely buy the hard cover collection of the Girl from the Other Side if I could afford it

They have a set of four hardcover deluxe editions

They’re really pretty

[gilded elm]

Damn I'm dumb. Of course this stuff is probably all digitally drawn nowadays huh. There's probably manga drawing software and all that.

[sand wigeon]

Probably

I should draw a manga /s

(I do not have the artistic skills for that, just the writing skills)

[gilded elm]

You can apparently use this to model everything in 3D basically (seems simple enough) and have it all rendered looking like it was drawn, for some people this might be easier than actually learning to draw manga lol https://store.steampowered.com/app/2234500/MangaKa/

[sand wigeon]

Interesting

That looks like it could really lend itself toward specific styles

[gilded elm]

Yeah, seems like it can animate too. Kinda neat, might grab this one on sale.

I do enjoy messing around in Blender now and then.

[sand wigeon]

Aye

[gilded elm]

Oh damn, Poison is pre-mitigation so phys-based poison won't benefit from Armour Break. TIL

Hm, so the total poison damage to apply is known on hit, before the damage is actually taken, before the effective damage is calculated.

[fierce moth]

wow, message explosion here

[desert jasper]

Just a few messages

[tawny sand]

ah yeah, it's pre-mitigation

that's why i was thinking of taking despair or wither, but idk if that'd work either

[fierce moth]

250+ messages for me so...

[gilded elm]

Nah don't think they'd work. The poison stack damage is calculated before the enemy even takes any damage at all.

Well, actually when I read the "Damage over Time" page on PoE2 Wiki, it does say that Resistance does in fact mitigate DoT damage of the corresponding damage type. Presumably this also implies that Despair would amplify Chaos DoT because it lowers Chaos Resistance (as opposed to Penetration)

[desert jasper]

Well
I hope it would
if it didn't it would mean Despair would be pretty useless

[gilded elm]

Yeah, sounds like lowering resistance should work to amplify DoT damage, but penetration won't work.

PoB is showing a poison DPS increase with Despair, so I trust that lol

[desert jasper]

Yeah, penetration didn't work in poe1 either for dot dmg

[gilded elm]

Hm, PoB doesn't seem to be showing any Poison DPS increase with Admixture support even though enemy is set to bleeding in config

[desert jasper]

So it would be strange if they randomly changed that lowering enemy res didn't work
but then again I wouldn't be surprised if they decided to pull that off

[gilded elm]

Where's zao?! Haaaaalp lol

[desert jasper]

I imagine that it should work in game
but it's just PoB not calculating it for some reason

[gilded elm]

You telling me I gotta multiply the DPS by 1.2x ... myself? gasp

[desert jasper]

I know, sucks
doesn't it

[gilded elm]

Damn, it's not even close. Pathfinder is seemingly the superior poison ranger build. I mean it makes sense given the double stack limit passive, but still. Guess I respec my ascendency class or change build lol

[fierce moth]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oM4-ZAAVIOU
Do he just want to say "we need more positive constructive feedback for poe 2 becuase many reasons which it can become the most popular ARPG must here, we must be patient and this game is going better and better through lots of issues still here"?

[desert jasper]

I'm not even gonna bother watching that

[gilded elm]

If he did, then it's a bad take. The people being harsh about PoE2 do it because they want the game to be good.

It's not the consumer's job to "give GGG a break"

[fierce moth]

I just know he is unsatisfied about the vibe that poe streamers are always give negative comments for poe 2 even they play that 8h+ per day for months and made lots of money from that

[gilded elm]

It's GGG's job to deliver a good game and if someone has a bad experience, they should express it, even if it's harsh.

[desert jasper]

Also even Ziz said that the clips that make it seem like he hates the league are taken out of context
and he's having the most fun he has had with poe2 and it's his favorite league

[fierce moth]

Not sure where the controversial point is

[desert jasper]

but yeah, it's on GGG's job to make a good game and deliver

[gilded elm]

I like watching Rue rage at GGG, partly because I like watching Rue rage in general (lol) but also because he's still expressing an opinion which is shared by a large portion of the playerbase, even if he's doing it in a way that may seem harsh to GGG.

People who say "give GGG more time, be understanding" are completely missing the point. These are perhaps the same people who might tell you to "go play something else if you don't like the game" as if that solves any problems lol

[gilded elm]

Yeah, saw that comment. I like the league too, but I totally get why some people are very frustrated at the current state of the game and it's entirely GGG's fault they released it in that state. The early access label shouldn't shield them from harsh criticisms of the game's ongoing development. I feel for GGG's struggle as a human, but GGG is not my friend. They are trying to get me to invest my time and money into a product.

[desert jasper]

A friend actually also started warrior in the league
met his first abyss
instantly dies to it
everything else? no problem really
more abyss? instant death
wrote quite a lot of feedback in our group's discord about it.. which i don't feel like translating to english
but the gist of it is that "it feels like shit as melee, getting swarmed like that. all the aoe, shotgunning projectiles, enemies teleporting on you etc when you're just not equipped to deal with it"

[desert jasper]

Too many people seem to think that company is their friend

[gilded elm]

"Your Favorite Content Creators Are KILLING POE 2"
A more correct title: GGG is "KILLING" POE 2
It's not content creators' faults that they are not having fun haha

[desert jasper]

Also even Mathil said that abyssal maps are borderline unplayable

[gilded elm]

For what it's worth, I think GGG is moving PoE2 in the right direction now, though.

[desert jasper]

And mathil basically never complains about poe stuff like that

[gilded elm]

Yeah if you got Mathil complaining about something, you know you messed up lol

Like actually complaining and not just meming

[desert jasper]

Anyway, I'm looking forward to getting to act 4
and the interluddite acts
Just got to get past Jamanra first and then go through act 3

[gilded elm]

Oh man, I think you'll like it. It's something new, but it's also actually well made from environmental design to story IMO

[desert jasper]

Just glad that they didn't put TOTA as one of the ascendancy things... yet
i hope they will not make it one

[gilded elm]

I assume you'll always have the choice of Sanctum or Ultimatum if you don't want to ToTA even when it's released.

I hope so.

[desert jasper]

anyway, got to get some fresh air before I actually start the day

And yeah, see I don't really like sanctum or ultimatum either

[gilded elm]

Surely Lab is the 4th trial /copium

[fierce moth]

I don't think his feedback is wrong because that's the fact. It depends on the player.

Many people select to give up because that's so bad/so hard to deal with this case, it's not the experience they're want from a loot-based ARPG.

Many people select to go on because they know abyssal enemies are scary, they must put more attentions on them, it's a bad experience without doubt, but they want to know more about this game.

Many people select to close the game and complain the bad experience they had because they want GGG know them, so GGG can do more on improving the experience.

🤔 We're paid and we're spent time to play this game, so none of them is wrong I think.

[gilded elm]

Yes, time is valuable. Never let someone tell you something stupid like "be patient or the game will die because of all the negative attention" lol

That's not players' fault for speaking. It's the game dev's fault

The best, most eloquent response to this video IMO.

[desert jasper]

I didn't pay a single € to play PoE2
Also I'd hardly call it "loot based arpg" when there's barely any loot dropping

[gilded elm]

Love that Ziz is rightly pointing out that 98% of his feedback has been about how great the league is, but this video takes the 2% and tries to paint him as a negative nancy lol

[desert jasper]

Essentially a clickbait

[gilded elm]

I'm gonna probably remember this guy like I remember RageGaming lmao

[desert jasper]

No idea who

[gilded elm]

Infamous channel for misinformation-riddled build videos.

Just clickbait, basically

[fierce moth]

Oh make sense, good gears in poe 2 are come from crafting (gambling) or trade (exchanging), not dropping

[desert jasper]

Wonderful
got to love those
reminds me of build guides for monster hunter
some channels pumping out "the best build" videos every day
and they're full of crap

[gilded elm]

Hey, that might actually be RageGaming

[desert jasper]

Probably yeah

I don't really watch youtube that much
Really only watch camping videos or cooking videos
sometimes put some music playing
but guides for games? nah

Also saw someone in global chat say how he started abyss map with essence drain + contagion (or whatever it was in poe2)
and the game dropped him to like 1fps for a minute or so
and then suddenly got a lvl & half from it

[gilded elm]

Yeah abyssal performance is nuts, needs to be high priority (I'm sure it is)

The whole mechanic is barely playable

[fierce moth]

lol the first lucky drop. 131 max life

[desert jasper]

juicy

[junior stirrup]

Cat ate their face.

[desert jasper]

Can't be healthy for the cat

[gilded elm]

Nice, at least the cat is eating well

[desert jasper]

Man
the 2nd phase of jamanra fight is just a clusterfug
so much things

Also I feel like it should be more clear when a boss can't take dmg because let's say it decides to change phase and there's the small thing it does

[fierce moth]

GGG give me a surpise in an unexpected time. ||Go upstairs and overlook the map on a tower|| is a cool concept which I want to do all the time (top view is helpful to view more details in this map)

But sorry to say not much worth to look here

[desert jasper]

yeah no i'm not gonna play this poison shit
it's like
i just can't kill jamanra
the dps is too low
so it just drags on

And then there's too much going on on the screen with tornadoes, stuff falling from sky, him blasting spears at you and the thing that cuts a part of the arena

Just not fun.

[gilded elm]

It does need quite a bit. Toxic Growth is a big damage burst along with Plague Bearer, and you need as many poison stacks as you can get (so Pathfinder, pretty much)

And tons of magnitude of course

[desert jasper]

Well so far I only got 3 stacks of poison

[gilded elm]

It's definitely kinda annoying to stay on top of it all

[narrow token]

Has anyone gotten past that mermaid boss? I really hate this encounter.

[gilded elm]

Oh yeah, you won't be hitting that 4 point Pathfinder passive yet at this point then

I mostly carried my damage with solid bow upgrades with +proj skills lol

[desert jasper]

Yeah well I haven't had anything good drop for me

And this is always an issue with attack based builds
not lucky with weapon drops?
Weell have fun suffering

[gilded elm]

What level are you any way at Jamanra? Like 30?

[desert jasper]

I don't remember, I'm already logged off and kinda thinking of just uninstalling and maybe coming back in 0.4 or later

because this isn't fun and thus not worth playing

[gilded elm]

Fair. I was looking through my stash, I don't think I threw away any of the stuff I leveled with

It's only +1, but I remember using this one for a while. Got no use for it now (if ya want it), there's also better or similar ones with +2 proj on trade too.

Also used this quiver for a while which I don't need anymore

[desert jasper]

That's like over double the dmg of my bow...

[gilded elm]

Well you're welcome to it, or both, for free lol

[desert jasper]

You know what
I'll think about it
Just a bit too frustrated at this moment

[gilded elm]

No worries, they aren't going anywhere. Also might have some jewelry or armour to cover resistance gaps, at the very least some runes too.

For Jamanra, I think it's Lightning Res you need to focus on stacking

[fierce moth]

I agree with you now. Holy. Very holy. Too holy. Holy god.

||Golden shabby chic sanctum||. Holy.

Their skills on lighting and shadow is fantastic.

||Gold & black||, classic colour combo, which appeared in sun temple of poe too but this version improve 100 times.

👏 👏 👏 👏 👏 👏
I want to clap.

It copied the floor pattern and wall assets from act 2 but GGG adjusted the lighting and the palette which let it looks 10x more amazing than buried shrines.

That's what I dream in a golden sanctum, holy.

[sand wigeon]

This is the least eloquent drivel ever

"I will not, however, fault someone for, in the moment," dear lord

Ineloquent and they sound like Jordan Peterson

[fierce moth]

lol ask for a loot? It's an interesting branch interaction in a map 👍

[sand wigeon]

Also unnecessary usage of complicated words for no real effect

The average reader does not know the word incumbent or aggrandizing

Use different words

General overusage of big words when the same thing could be said in far less

It just seems like they're trying to sound smart while saying something that could be said in about two sentences

"idk i don't think it's the customers job to provide criticism you like. yeah, criticism should ideally be respectful, but there are people who kinda have to play these games for work (such as streamers) and expecting them to just remove themselves feels kinda disrespectful"

that's what they said (now written by a human and not a brain in a jar)

[fierce moth]

Ohhhhh interesting. hhhhh so I can pick 2 in 3 in total

[gilded elm]

It may be an age thing that I consider it eloquent, but the words chosen perfectly articulate what you rephrased. That the average user has a more limited vocabulary doesn't take away from the articulate eloquence of the statements written there.

[sand wigeon]

If someone presented this style of writing in a college essay they would get a negative grade my guy

This isn't an age thing

This is literally my job

That's extremely ineloquent and poorly written lol

[gilded elm]

I'll respectfully disagree, as one human being to another who also possesses a respectable command of the English language.

[sand wigeon]

Sure, hun.

Eloquence is a combination of concise and understandable. It's the ability or state of getting words across impactfully, in as few as possible while fully illustrating your point. The average person is more eloquent in casual conversation than that comment because it's filled with unnecessary clarification, statement and unnecessary words.

[gilded elm]

That's where you're wrong. Concision has more in common with terseness than it does eloquence. By definition, no less.

I stand by my assertion, it was eloquent and well articulated.

[sand wigeon]

Then I'm wrong

Thumbs up

[fierce moth]

Ok both of poe 2 and le impressed me by new immersive gorgeous creative beautiful amazing environment art.

It's my pleasure to enjoy them. 2025 is the best year for loot-based ARPG players.

[hot crown]

Might want to check out Wuthering Waves in that regard as well.

[fierce moth]

Oh 鸣潮... Ok I see which game you mean

I'll doubt these streamers are sponsored if they just say how good a game is and spoiler nothing about their drama moments. These drama moments let their clips more funny to watch, let the distance between streamers and audiences shorter, and reveal the room to improve so I enjoy this vibe. Praise a game is fine, but a game can't grow without criticism.

[hot crown]

Tell me about it.

Criticism, especially valid one, can definitely help, but that's only if the devs are willing to actually commit to taking said criticism to heart.

If the devs keep pushing their own agenda (especially when it comes to monetization) while disregarding players' input altogether, then the game will stagnate and fizzle out long-term.

Yes, it can be a cash cow for some while, but that won't last long if this keeps up.

[gilded elm]

Yeah, ultimately they want PoE2 to be a better game. Their criticisms are valid, even if it's said with anger or frustration.

And of course, it's funny as heck to watch lol

I love watching Rue rage

[fierce moth]

🤔 Hollow knight: silksong will be released today

[sand wigeon]

I want PoE2 to be a dead game

[sand wigeon]

Indeed! Sadly I think I have to work tomorrow, since nobody has taken my shift for that day, but I’m excited to play it anyway

[desert jasper]

No interest in silksong tbh
partially because don't have extra 20 to throw at it
partially because recently tried to replay hollow knight and it turns out my controller doesn't work for it normally
i'd have to unplug it and then plug it back in after reaching main menu
And i'm not going to do that every time I want to play a game

[fierce moth]

https://youtu.be/F8-HsbBP_H8?si=oXr-xiYlbO_j5q3V

😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂
I love this animation.

Can we ask more animations about Poe 2 simulator?

[jolly wadi]

Whenever I play Path of Exile II, this is what it feels like lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8-HsbBP_H8 (So I Tried Path of Exile 2, by CarbotAnimations)

[jolly wadi]

That to me looks like you have Sharpness set way too sharp

[blissful token]

Busy day

[desert jasper]

Truly

[blissful token]

Just got to catch up like 5% of the 500+ messages here lmao and i think i wont read further

nub leaving the league or still on the fence?

Silksong release?

Probably gonna wait a few months before i play it

[tawny sand]

i'll probably buy silksong today but won't play it till i'm done with poe2

[blissful token]

Define done

[tawny sand]

good point, probably just when i'm bored lol

[blissful token]

I see Act 4 have pretty good and fun content based on what you guys said

I am hitting act 4 later when i get home

[tawny sand]

nice nice, some tricky bosses but otherwise a fun act

i think once i feel like i'm reaching a stopping point with my ranger i'll play another class, kind of want to try the warrior hammer throw thing

or maybe hollow palm monk

[blissful token]

I am doing that now but i think i am lacking

Take very long to kill doryani yesterday

[tawny sand]

hmm, maybe bad rng on weapon drops?

[blissful token]

Yea, its still magic with just phy% and tiny bit of atk spd lmao

[tawny sand]

dang lol

[blissful token]

And i was relying on fissures

You guys all get the momentum cluster?

I think i am spreading my passives too thin to reach there on my warrior

Especially when i am playing titan, those travel node dont help much

[tawny sand]

is it the "ignore all movement penalties on armour" node?

[blissful token]

Yes

[tawny sand]

nah i haven't taken it, but i'm not in that part of the tree

[blissful token]

Owh righy

Thats between warrior and merc

You guys are more at the far right, yea?

[tawny sand]

i'm ranger yeah

doing pathfinder

[desert jasper]

I'm still mad
somehow they managed to make attack based characters experience even worse in poe2
Like I remember in 0.1 going 20 lvls with same weapon because literally nothing dropped and npcs had nothing better to sell
and now it's the same shit again

[abstract karma]

32 lvl but medicore bow hp defences ..

I literally had to forsake resistences a push another flat dmg to be able to kill it

[blissful token]

I am still using a lv 20+ mace and its magic 🥲

[abstract karma]

If rest of multiplayers are good, no wonder... Thats what poe2 unbalances are unfair within skill and classes

You dont need best weapon but best set up

[fierce moth]

https://www.reddit.com/r/PathOfExile2/s/q4ftt5JMiF
Marked, it suppose to be very helpful for my future runs in trial of sekhemas 🤔

[lofty wren]

that's an excellent guide, rip melee players tho. no matter what they'll always be dumped on by ggg.

[warped wren]

Saying this as Warriors absolutely shit on the game this patch is comical ngl

[desert jasper]

Not in early game

[warped wren]

Lmao. Maces are the 2nd best starting archetpe after bows.

Slightly edging out EDC

They really should rebalance A1 for all archetypes

Bloody brutal as is

Playing crossbows or staves from lv 1 is straight up asking for a horrible time

Till you unlock actual skills

[lofty wren]

Lol. Warrior isn't dead like people said but I still don't find it very comfy to play

It does have some crazy power though

The early gameplay for a lot things needs to be improved really, there's so many builds that just don't come online until like end of act 2 / early act 3

[warped wren]

Warrior will only feel comfy the day they fix armor formula

Right now avoidance is absurdly superior

[lofty wren]

I league started stormweaver and man it was rough. Spells are so reliant on +level to spells to do meaningful damage

[warped wren]

Or ES with busted low recharge delay

It's just foolish IMO. Their whole meaningful combat spiel completely falls apart by the time you hit yellow maps

Then you're just blasting screens same as PoE1 again, albeit moving slower

Off the top of my head, Fissure Warrior, SWT Fissure Warbringer, Falling Thunder Monk, Hollow Palm Monk, 5 flavors of Deadeye, Gas Grenade PF, Mortar Merc, Fireball Bloodmage, EDC Lich, summoner Lich, Arc Sorc, are all absolutely dunking on maps rn

Yet GGG wants to make the acts a cuck fest

[lofty wren]

Tbh it falls apart before then. Game is just a slog for the first 2 acts. I'm usually blasting through act 3.

[warped wren]

Yeah i mean you really feel it in maps

I use 2 buttons and delete whole screens

If i wanna perma stun a target i use 1 extra button

Reached Xesht last night and I had him perma pinned or electrocuted so he did like 3 moves total

[lofty wren]

I had a good laugh at ruetoo's latest build. Looks just like poe1 with how fast he's mowing down screens.

[warped wren]

Yeah I mean that's just the state of balance rn

"Let's make combat meaningful by adding deterministic crafting and relatively buffing the crap out of Deadeye" - GGG probably

[lofty wren]

Eventually they'll give up on the meaningful combat nonsense because it only exists for like half of the campaign

[ebon meadow]

Over quarter of builds in SC is deadeye

I m.happy with my ed I haven't even ascended yet level 52 lmao

31% is deadeye last time I checked Poe ninja

[lofty wren]

We went from lightning spear to lightning arrow. Very interesting meta GGG.

[ebon meadow]

I stay away from light arrow it's been like 5 leagues in a row plus events in poe1

[lofty wren]

Pretty sure deadeye is higher

Closer to 40%

[ebon meadow]

Yea it was very close to being half of build overall , like 42% or something

Can't really tell because not all players sync account with Poe ninja or Poe racing

[lofty wren]

The balance is the main thing making the game feel bad to play early on

Hopefully we see some improvements in 0.4

[ebon meadow]

Warrior that bad ? I had most fun with it last few patches

[lofty wren]

People get the impression that x build sucks when it's just bad in the first acts

Warrior is good, has a lot of power

Melee doesn't feel comfy right now imo but it feels strong

[ebon meadow]

TBF mele will always suck in Arpgs u competing against ranged builds beeing almost facetanking packs and Bose's

Not much u can do

Or mele was always things like sunder ranged slams tldr

[lofty wren]

Ya I mean the only time I've liked "melee" is when it's screen wide coverage or has projectiles attached lol

[ebon meadow]

Yep

[lofty wren]

volcanic fissure of snaking and lightning strike

Stuff like that

[sudden anchor]

Flicker strike!

[junior oyster]

The curse of melee in arpgs and terraria

Although it's not too bad in grim dawn

And I guess d2

[ebon meadow]

I already have bad eyes sight lol don't need a cisure

VFoS should not beeing a thing to start with it's just so dumb cozy

It's a cool skill but the interaction scaling is why do I play anything else

[lofty wren]

Yeah that was one of my easiest starts... enemy seeking fissures is dumb

off screen stuff and keep running

[ebon meadow]

Add dot on top of that and a heavy damage double hander and it's gg

[lofty wren]

I didn't like the build enough to scale super hard but it's very cozy for sure

[ebon meadow]

I still don't know if I want to go bloodmage or litch lol

Also not having issues going unascended for now at all

And not even invested in to es recharge speed for now

Might as well just keep going as ed with this one and roll something else later ,no BPL untill like 21 ISH so not much to play

[fierce moth]

I played lightning damage by Stormweaver in 0.1 too much and I tried lightning arrow deadeye already, but I still want to figure out how to play caster, plus lich is what I want to try in 0.2, so no struggle for me

[blissful token]

hmm did 1 island in act 4

feels alright

[fierce moth]

Are you experienced explosions around? Oh. Wait, it's a trash question because explosion is everywhere.

emmmm... I mean explosion near sea.

[blissful token]

i.... dont need to be at sea for explosion

i am a warrior

i explode

i can feel my cpu shaking

[candid sage]

did silksong break the internet already? XD

[desert jasper]

Maybe

[candid sage]

steam, nintendo, playstation, xbox...all having issues. lol

[blissful token]

yea

[blissful token]

hmm.. birds

[desert jasper]

Time to cook them

[fierce moth]

The best shield I found so far

👀 wowwwwww environment art moment. I travel to india immediately and deep blue palette is amazing!

[desert jasper]

@gilded elm Aight, I've been thinking
sure, I'll take you up on that offer of bow + quiver

[blissful token]

wow the fight with || mermaid || is such a waste of time

[tawny sand]

yeah that's my least liked boss for sure

just takes forever

i bet it sucks on melee

[blissful token]

i can stun it every time it || comes out of the water || but it takes 3 cycles... gosh

[fierce moth]

The way to open endgame is quite confusing... I almost be lost

[blissful token]

also i almost forgot to interact with the clam after || clearing the ambush|| lol

ooo i like the shoreline hideout

but

done 5 islands

gonna stop here

liking act 4 so far but i think it is just becuz its new and fresh

also || magma twins || rekt me hard

will start with prison tmr

[fierce moth]

Double graveflay and one of them is the rare enemy for completing this map... I'm tired, sorry.

👏 👏 👏 I don't give any juice for this waystone, just a white one.

[blissful token]

i fought a double gravefly in abyssal depth just now and both of them have the slow bubble

[fierce moth]

lol another 2. I killed 2 just now. Fine, quit game :)

[blissful token]

Oof tiring

[junior oyster]

Apparently GoG is fine but I'm not interested in HK anyway xD

[blissful token]

Oo

[tawny sand]

i'm gonna wait for steam to fix cause i like using steam input, idk if the gog version will have native ps4 controller support

[blissful token]

I like how kirra have more hp and ES than me

[fierce moth]

0.4.0 will release in the end of December? But that's Christmas month for them

I hope I can play act 5/6 in that version

[blissful token]

Will they give us sword and axe?

[desert jasper]

haha no

[vagrant topaz]

I want drood

[fierce moth]

😆

Sorry, I burst into laughing. poe 2 need to wear a sunglass to play hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI1iAvvJzqg
Drama entrance ⬆️

[blissful token]

Darood sandstorm?

[fierce moth]

Ziz is offline now. hhhh alright

I want to see how he play poe 2 with sunglass xd

[blissful token]

You can watch his twitch vod

Or your site is blocked?

[fierce moth]

I found he held a podcast a day ago

[junior oyster]

Near perfect

[twilit mountain]

I want traps and I want them to be good dammit >:(

[desert jasper]

I'm gonna show you traps
just let me download the poe1 patch super slowly

[warped wren]

I am playing this build and I can confirm it is exactly this bad lol

[twilit mountain]

I just let things explode by hitting me xdd (thank you Sar)

(Not 100% true, I do poke things with a stick as well but the damage scales from them hitting me)

[fierce moth]

GGG is quite good at making dramas hhhhhhhhh

[twilit mountain]

I said good :(

No, Soulrend traps don't count

I know zHP trappers exist for bossing, I don't consider that good

[desert jasper]

never seen soulrend traps

[fierce moth]

That's quite perfect hhhhh

lv 67, just reach the endgame and complete a map, decide to quit game when met abyssal again in the 2nd map.

[twilit mountain]

Omega DPS and alright clear but needs hyper-specific gearing (and a Nimis lmao)

[desert jasper]

Ah, Nimis
well rip that

[abstract karma]

time to stop and create new char with only 50 deaths

[maiden widget]

gg

[junior oyster]

ty

[gilded elm]

Sure, just tell me who to add when you're around

[ebon meadow]

Over 30 death is a reroll YEP through campaign

I don't want to do mine but probably close to 20

It's rather the build or how comfortable u are with it for example having 8 buttons to push is a no go for me

2-3 skills to clear 5 skills to boss that's a perfect build for me

[fierce moth]

What? That's too crazy, man.

[desert jasper]

Well I'm currently playing on RipuliJousi named character
I think I did actually outgrow your bow
but the quiver should be an upgrade still

[gilded elm]

oh nice

[desert jasper]

(name means diarrheabow)

[twilit mountain]

I want the drop disabled unique bow

[desert jasper]

what's that one?

[twilit mountain]

This thing
https://www.poe2wiki.net/wiki/Fairgraves'_Curse

[gilded elm]

I forgot to ask, did you need gems/support gems? I might have some for your level. If not now, then later or whenever, just ask

Uncut gems, I mean

[twilit mountain]

It's funny but also it got turned off because Spectral Fire crashes the game every time you pop ignite with it

[desert jasper]

I got surprisingly many tbh
and then i'm gated by stats on stuff like despair

[gilded elm]

Ah

[twilit mountain]

I missed a word in that sentence

[fierce moth]

https://www.reddit.com/r/PathOfExile2/s/qf8NiMb4gB

That's true.

[desert jasper]

Need one of these @twilit mountain ?

[twilit mountain]

Nah, I actually scale my damage via flat thorns damage that I get to use as manual hits

It's interesting tech

[desert jasper]

Fair

[fierce moth]

Yes, that's my opinions too

Who knows the pain of blink need 60 spirit but you have 50 free spirit only

I'm surprised they just talk about how good maps in act 4 is but no one mention interlude acts lol

That's quite unexpecting of I prefer 2 different types of buried shrines in interlude maps than any new maps in act 4. They reused old art assets quite well.

[desert jasper]

just dropped The Devouring Diadem

I guess most people don't really mind about the interlude acts because they're temporary.

Also, reusing old art assets is just good planning, really

You don't need to make new stuff for every single thing oyu see

[gilded elm]

Yeah interludes are okay, but they're temporary and mostly just re-used tilesets and boss models so I didn't really have a strong opinion of them. Act 4 is entirely new, more to discuss.

[fierce moth]

I hope Sel khari sanctuary can be saved, really. Don't eliminate that :(

New maps in act 4 for me is 6-7 only. But sel khari sanctuary... I can give 9

[gilded elm]

Cool, just got one of them Lineage gems from Abyssal Depths

[gilded elm]

Oh, not bad. 200% increased for long boss fights sounds pretty dope

[desert jasper]

just dropped that from abyssal hoard thingy

[gilded elm]

I'm glad I plugged my character into PoB and messed around with gems lol. I had all of the wrong support gems for my Poisonburst Arrow lol

[desert jasper]

oof

[gilded elm]

Didn't even realize this was a thing, but it's effectively 40% multi

[desert jasper]

juicy

Also holy ... this killed the magma boss in act 3 way faster than my melee with overgeared stuff ever did

[gilded elm]

lol, I haven't seen a single streamer playing melee with mace.

I think melee is okay right now, just mace really really sucks

[desert jasper]

There was someone here earlier that was saying that warrior is the strongest start

[gilded elm]

Dunno about strongest league starter, but I bet you could get a solid melee warrior going if you ditch the mace

[desert jasper]

this one
well, not warrior but maces

[gilded elm]

Can't speak to the truth of that since I don't have knowledge enough to say, though I'm kinda skeptical

Mace just feels too clunky

[desert jasper]

clunky
also slams being super slow and leaving oyu vulnerable to attacks doesn't help at all
Sure, they have dmg and a lot of them have extra stun buildup
but then early game it's like
earthquake? 4second time until it deals dmg
rolling slam? about 2seconds and I think only the 2nd hit has extra stunbuild?

And then the non slam skills either have charge time
or just have weird conditions

Like boneshatter only really working against targets that are ready for heavy stun

[gilded elm]

Yeah the wind-ups just feel bad, even if they are strong. Also I'm assuming "maces are good" only applies to a narrow set of skills, I would imagine.

[desert jasper]

Yeah, most likely
And then you've got stuff like Perfect Strike
wind-up and also misses enemy that's too close to you
And also if enemy moves a little it misses

[gilded elm]

Every time you miss a Perfect Strike, Jonathan sheds a tear of joy.

[warped wren]

it is not, re-read the wording

only increases and reductions apply

more does nothing

GGG is very specific about this stuff

[gilded elm]

That's what I thought too, but PoB calc'd it. I'll check again though.

[warped wren]

also can you imagine them giving a free 40% more multi support gem without any downside or clunk in PoE2

[gilded elm]

That said, PoB has been a bit weird for me this league.

[warped wren]

PoB2 is still very much in development

it's missing or bugged on a lot of stuff

kinda why everyone uses planners for now

[gilded elm]

Yeah the missing stuff is not a big deal for me, but the bugged stuff is unfortunate.

Although...

Why is the in-game DPS changing on the skill with and without the support gem

It's definitely NOT 40% "more" though

Oh

[warped wren]

guess you have proj speed elsewhere

[gilded elm]

Maybe I have increase nodes somewhere in my tree

[desert jasper]

Anyway, I guess I should get ready for sleeping 🤔
It's honestly pretty ridiculous how much changing to a different bow can boost the dmg
pretty much doubled the poison dps by equipping Slivertongue

[gilded elm]

Yeah, looks like I have around 42% total increased from tree. Looking more closely at the MH Total Increased in calcs, I can see them being applied there, so it's around an effective 20% DPS multi at current investment, which ain't bad either. Maybe I should actually invest more into proj speed in general.

So PoB actually isn't broken in this particular case, I'm just actually dumb.

[gilded elm]

Yep, I think I got luckier than you just because I went through every nook and cranny of the campaign this league start

[desert jasper]

So did I

[gilded elm]

Ouch wtf lol

[desert jasper]

Basicaly no bow drops
and if I did get something they were like "here, some cold dmg" or "+1% crit"
shit like that

[gilded elm]

I ran the campaign with just the "Regular" NeverSink filter too, so maybe I just filtered out less potential bows. A few magics which I aug/regal/exalted into upgrades.

And some lucky finds from vendors too

Otherwise, I think GGG needs to consider "smart loot" like Diablo (one of the better Diablo features lol)

I also think they need to boost Lesser Rune drop chances in campaign. The drop rates on those are abysmally low right now.

[desert jasper]

I had the same bow for like 10-15 levels
i checked npcs every lvl
I finally decided eh i'll just gamble one from npc
got one that boosted the hit dmg by 100
which I then used for another... 7 lvls until I got the slivertongue

[gilded elm]

Yeah the gap between weapon upgrades is harsh based on what I've read from Reddit. A lot of people with the same experience as you. I think I just got really lucky.

[desert jasper]

I don't think they should really do smart look ala diablo
but they could surely boost stuff like that, especially during campaign

[gilded elm]

Smart loot would be difficult to do in PoE because classes aren't locked to weapons like they are in Diablo, but I feel like they could at least make a "best effort smart loot" thing that drops more of what you're already using (if using Evasion armours, then more Evasion drops etc)

[desert jasper]

Yeah, they could make it have a look at your character
and make it drop let's say
7/10 of the gear suited towards that
or maybe 6/10
so you could still realistically change your build towards another
or farm for another build

[gilded elm]

Maybe designate like 20%-30% of all equipment drops to be "smart drops" based on what you're already using or something like that.

[desert jasper]

Yeah, probably start at lower % and then pump it up if it seems like it's necessary
because you know, if they start at higher % and then lower it
oh the rage people have

[gilded elm]

And if you ever need to change to different kinds of gear, just use a trash version, go back to a lower level area and maybe farm for a better version now that the smart drops will cater to what you have equipped.

I wouldn't mind that approach

[desert jasper]

anyway, it's almost 11pm so I really need to drop off
Thanks again for the stuff

[gilded elm]

All good, feel free to ask if you need anything. I might have it! Good night :)

[gilded elm]

Adding to this, I'd also say if this kind of system existed, obviously it should only apply to white/magic/rare drops, not uniques (for very obvious reasons)

[tawny sand]

did this work? I couldn't tell based on what you were saying about pob2

[gilded elm]

No I misunderstood what PoB was showing me, which @warped wren correctly pointed out. I was being a dumb dumb and conflating where the damage increase was coming from (turns out I have a few Increased Proj Speed passive nodes and one affix on an item too)

I initially thought the more proj speed was actually applying to the damage, it was just from my proj speed nodes and affixes which I didn't realize I had.

[tawny sand]

ah okay

[gilded elm]

It's still a great support gem if you do stack proj speed and don't already have the notable which does the same thing

[tawny sand]

i wonder what i can do now that i've taken all the magnitude nodes, i guess crit to make the initial hit stronger and thus the poison stronger?

or does that work, idk

maybe i should be focusing some on defenses though now, i am kind of squishy

[fierce moth]

How Byte's deadeye build the defense?

[gilded elm]

Based on what I'm reading... looks like crits for damaging ailments are not based on whether the hit crits? I think this is because ailment damage is calculated before the enemy even takes the hit?

[gilded elm]

Evasion and Deflection right now, I'm very squishy and need to change something

[tawny sand]

i think i read that too yeah, my poe friend has been helping me with building some and i believe he mentioned that maybe

sounds familiar though, like i already knew it and forgot lol

[gilded elm]

PoE2 wiki info is very bare right now, having to rely a lot on PoE1 wiki and hope it's still accurate for a lot of things lol

The poison page on PoE2 wiki is... well it's a page, but not much of one.

[tawny sand]

yeah

and i think poison works differently in poe2 doesn't it? I'm not sure tho

[gilded elm]

It does in terms of magnitude, for sure

[tawny sand]

and the passive tree lacks chaos damage over time nodes and stuff too so

yeah it's magnitude in poe2

[gilded elm]

Magnitude replaces the Chaos Damage Over Time stuff, I believe

The base poison damage in PoE1 and base poison magnitude in PoE2 are very similar if not the same

PoE1:

PoE2:

Oh interesting, in PoE1, poison is based on flat damage.

[gilded elm]

Just found this on YT, gonna give it a watch soon so can't speak to how informative it is, but I'm trusting the algorithm right now lol https://youtu.be/7DX-gc4xfAA

[tawny sand]

oh nice i'll watch that too

[twilit mountain]

Yeah I do not like PoE2 ailments

[junior oyster]

Nearly there

[gilded elm]

I'm conflicted. I think magnitude and thresholds add a layer of depth, that is I do think ailments should have more depth to them than they do in PoE1, but I don't know if PoE2's approach is the right way.

[junior oyster]

Possessed golems shouldn't have such a crazy range imo

Anyway dinged and also first time doing over 300c (1000+ atm)

[gilded elm]

Damn, you're gaming lol

[tawny sand]

pro-tier gamer

[twilit mountain]

Magnitude as a system is fine, I think that them just being "hit damage but long" is extremely lame though.

[junior oyster]

https://www.lastepochtools.com/planner/QWkmm6dQ

[candid crypt]

Beastmaster, Level 100

:white_check_mark: This character build is verified

Game Cycle / Version:

Beneath Ancient Skies / 1.3.1

Class:

Primalist (25) / Beastmaster (76) / Druid (12)

General:

▸ Health: 3,338, Regen: 1,028.43/s
▸ Mana: 255.51, Regen: 10.96/s
▸ Ward Retention: 292%, Regen: 291/s
▸ Attributes: 119 Str / 40 Dex / 119 Int / 37 Att / 30 Vit
▸ Resistances: 111% / 196% / 102% / 118% / 148% / 105% / 94%

Defenses:

▸ Endurance: 52%, Threshold: 985
▸ Dodge Chance: 9% (283)
▸ Armor Mitigation: 67% (5,641)

Used skills:

Summon Frenzy Totem / Swipe / Summon Storm Crows / Summon Wolf / Warcry

[junior oyster]

My build btw

[gilded elm]

To clarify, you mean poison magnitude doesn't feel significant as a damage scaler for poison stacks?

[junior oyster]

I'm probably going to stop play BM and change to something a bit different

[junior oyster]

I played poe2 for about an hour and was like should I really waste my time?

[twilit mountain]

Basically, I hate that the main scalar for ailments right now is "hit them harder" instead of scaling the actual ailment itself.

[gilded elm]

The upside here is that magnitude is at least multiplicative with the base poison damage derived from the hit, at least. So scaling magnitude should feel significant.

I think the Deadly Poison support gems play exactly on this idea in particular. Less hit damage for More magnitude.

[twilit mountain]

Poison is in a poorer state than the others imo because they made the "base" of it weaker in exchange for stackin

[gilded elm]

Yeah that's something I don't like. I don't like that Pathfinder seems to be the only "poison class"

[twilit mountain]

Have played a poison build into 8 mod T16s last patch, that gem is bait

[gilded elm]

Because it has the insane "double poison stack limit"

[gilded elm]

There's higher tiers now (not sure if they existed in 0.2) like Deadly Poison T1 T2 T3

Or maybe up to T2 only? Deadly Poison II is "30% Less Hit, 100% More Magnitude"

So it would come down to how much magnitude you already have, I guess?

[twilit mountain]

Maybe T2 would be usable IF you aren't already working with a lot of magnitude. The issue there is poison can get like 20-30% mag for one jewel socket

Or more

[tawny sand]

it's only up to t2 i think yeah

[gilded elm]

I think it's the other way around? The support gem would shine if you are already stacking a lot of "Increased Magnitude" and the support gem then gives you multiplicative "2x More Magnitude"

Right now with my setup, it's only a 7% Combined DPS increase, for like 70% less effective hit DPS and 30% more effective poison DPS

According to PoB, any way

Keeping in mind that Magnitude itself is also multiplicative with the base poison damage. So increased magnitude, then more magnitude, then take that magnitude and multiply it against the base poison. I can see how that might scale.

What I really don't like is that Pathfinder has this node

It seemingly makes poison exclusive to Pathfinder, maybe I'm wrong.

Going back to Magnitude though, you can see how "100% More" can be huge if you stack a lot of "Increased"

[twilit mountain]

I played poison Zon xdd

[gilded elm]

Bruh, I'm playing a poison deadeye and I'm ready to just respec my ascendency to pathfinder at this point lul

I really don't want to, but GGG is forcing my hand

[twilit mountain]

Just equip the poison spear tbqh

It's stupid

[gilded elm]

I hate playstyles being locked behind classes themselves.

That's not what an ascendency should be about IMO

It goes against the spirit of what PoE class design is/was IMO

At least in PoE1, sure you could play a less efficient ascendency for a given playstyle, but at least it was almost always viable

In PoE2, the viability is not there

[twilit mountain]

You can make poison Monk a thing too (not Chayula, that thing is still dogshit)

It's.... weird, because poison on other classes works via crit which just feels WRONG