#⭕┃circle-of-fortune

1 messages · Page 37 of 1

livid spruce
#

They were considering not doing it

delicate berry
#

no. that is not needed and should not be done. it should be seperate playstyles. i.e trading or no trading. the question is to make up for not being able to trade and this is what the problem is

azure ice
#

Allow players to play both. If players like the feeling of getting kicked in the shin then let them stay COF

azure ice
#

If it’s truly such a play style thing then let the player decide

hushed crest
#

because people think that makes the game "too easy" without even trying it

winter shadow
hushed crest
#

i have been trying for 3 days to get a pair of 2lp gloves and i still have nothing

#

just... jesus

winter shadow
delicate berry
# azure ice What’s so bad with letting player play both?

look at PoE. trading will come out superior still. there need adjustments to be made on CoF side but not allow for trading. people who dont like to trade would still be punished with no adjustments on CoF and being ultimately forced to trade

winter shadow
#

if majority of players think same as you i cant see any reason why they wont do it

azure ice
delicate berry
#

yes

hushed crest
#

i'm a brand new player and i'm ready to make a new character in MG cause i can't get a f'ing pair of gloves no matter what i do. big sign for me that CoF isn't strong enough

livid spruce
delicate berry
#

for some reason i believe it would have been better EHG went through with their decision to not include an auction house and instead go with the drop stuff alone adjusting rates properly

#

this would have been far more benificial for the game i believe

livid spruce
#

idk, I think the item faction system is pretty cool, it's like two games in one

winter shadow
hushed crest
#

when i saw what Rune Of Ascendance did, i was like awesome, put in a pair of plated gauntlets, get my wing guards, try until i get 2lp. nope, a pair of gloves will spawn ALL glove uniques in the game

winter shadow
#

in the game now i mean, obviously they already coded that

livid spruce
hushed crest
#

maybe if i could dump 500k gold to increase my chances of getting what want in CoF

#

still better than just buying it

#

and i have nothing to do with my gold rn anyway

delicate berry
livid spruce
winter shadow
#

also from how wack 1.0 bazaar was, i also doubt it was much of an important thing that they've planned for long time

livid spruce
#

I melt all my gold into stash tabs though lol

livid spruce
#

because they had shifted toward not doing the bazaar, and that led to a lot of feedback from people who still wanted it

winter shadow
#

very crowd pleasing omegalul whether a good or bad thing you decide

livid spruce
#

Yup, EHG is nothing if not a company that listens to its community and is very flexible

#

for better or worse owobyss

hushed crest
#

a lot of times players don't actually know what they want

delicate berry
livid spruce
hushed crest
#

sometimes its best for a dev house to do exactly what their vision is. when you listen to every player that's too many cooks in the kitchen

winter shadow
#

and sometimes what they actually do contradict with what's they trying to do

delicate berry
#

thats dev life. the goal is to create a middle thing without pushing any of the players to the edge. but as said i still cant relate to some decisions and i believe they will cause more damage in the future than actually fixing problems.

livid spruce
#

overall though I can't complain too much, they've made a great game that I've sunk a ton of time into lol

#

best ARPG on the market for me personally

winter shadow
#

that would be for me to if not for the bugs

delicate berry
#

thing is last epoch had a lot of experience from other ARPG's from the genre they could siphon on by seeing how things are and stuffs so honestly speaking this isnt surprising but can flip fast when comparing to newer stuff like PoE 2 or when blizz finally decides to care for their playerbase

hushed crest
#

it deffo has too many bugs for how long it's been out

#

real obvious ones

cinder marsh
livid spruce
delicate berry
# cinder marsh let me guess, the people they "decide against" are high end COF players?

depends. if we talk about a same level playing field with MG this def is an decision against the players. if "high end" means 3k corruption farming then yes this should not be. but what also should not be is not giving players an actual fun alternative while taking the only proper way to farm high favor away. and no 120k favor per hour is not high neither is 200k when it comes to farming the items you need while crawling through piles of unusable loot

winter shadow
#

there are massive game breaking bugs out there that some ppl wants to keep for themself

hushed crest
#

in my first few hours of playing i ran into a point where i couldn't progress due to a bug. i had to google a solution

#

it was in the main campaign

livid spruce
#

haven't re-run the campaign since, so I haven't verified lol

bleak bridge
#

Quick question: Can prophecies for uniques also yield ones that normally drop off bosses? Or are the unique prophecies restricted to items that could naturally drop from the mob that is the target of the prophecy?

livid spruce
delicate berry
livid spruce
#

Yeah, "random drop" is the technical term - anything you see random drop listed on in LE Tools can be gotten from prophecies or runes of ascendance or from any mob high enough level

delicate berry
#

(we just found out another way of improvement for CoF)

hushed crest
#

just did lightless arbor dungeon for the first time... took 3 expensive mods, got 1 chest with nothing useful in it

#

woooooo...

distant leaf
distant leaf
delicate berry
# distant leaf Did we? What is it?

possibility to drop boss uniques to the drop pool of CoF unique prophecies. i.e giving the player a different way to get the unique aside from killing the boss himself (just like MG already benefits from as boss drop items can be put into bazaar) and to complement the system of increased chance of boss drop in another direction

distant leaf
#

Because increasing drop-rates for MG would absolutely and completely trivialize the game for trade players? And so EHG would nerf drop rates to the current level that MG has so that trade would be somewhat balanced. And then CoF players would have nothing

distant leaf
#

This is not an improvement

delicate berry
#

as that would be fair

distant leaf
#

You are so laser focused on making CoF and MG "fair" and it's to the detriment of the game, imo

#

Yes, being able to buy boss uniques and circumvent the game itself is a weakness of MG. Trade undermines the design of the game

#

But CoF already has a solution to this. CoF players get way more boss uniques per boss kill than MG players get

#

by "weakness", I don't mind "less strong", I mean "less fun"

delicate berry
# distant leaf You are so laser focused on making CoF and MG "fair" and it's to the detriment o...

you yourself said that implementing an auctionhouse i.e trading into the game does make the whole game need to be adjusted towards that i.e everybody who doesnt use trade suffers greatly. CoF is there to prevent that but thats still not a real alternative in current state and this is not just subjective its objective but i repeat myself here.

But CoF already has a solution to this. CoF players get way more boss uniques per boss kill than MG players get

"more" boss uniques doesnt matter when its just quantity. the quality is whats important. even with the nemesis system the pool of possible affixes is incredible great as that you get "lucky" in one of those nemesis rolls with an nonlp unique is incredible small. so you literally have nothing from more quantity when everything you drop with CoF is 0/1 LP while MG players are allowed to trade them freely regardless of LP without the need to kill the boss for it.

so if you say "you should have to kill the boss to get these items" then forbid trading of those items for MG players as that is exactly what they are able to do while you NEED to kill the boss to get any of those items as CoF

rare ivy
#

I really think the solution is to separate the two factions for good, hence two different ladders; so then folks stop comparing the two competitively.

livid spruce
#

Separate ladders would be nice, won't stop people comparing them like above though

rare ivy
#

I mean in MG, you have to learn how the market works, which is another system to learn and requires more knowledge of the game to benefit from greatly.

#

in CoF you just gotta learn the prophecy system, that's it

weary hound
#

Poll result from playerbase doesnt mean EHG follow willy-nilly though. EHG mentioned that they view us as having a seat at the table and take in our feedback as one vote (poll result) for their decision-making process

delicate berry
# rare ivy I really think the solution is to separate the two factions for good, hence two ...

my initial post with the suggestions were not meant because of ladders though but because i believe the system is greatly flawed when comparing and you HAVE to decide so the comparason is not wrong at all and not focused on competitive play alone. what ive heard so far here is that people obviously like to suffer on purpose for what ever reason when they accept current state of CoF without widening their view towards how other games solved this issue or what the alternatives in LE are. if you really want to be hardcore then dont even join a faction then you can get all of your gear the hard way walking uphill both ways through the snow like a real gamer as it was before the implementation of those factions. my believe however is that CoF is for people who want a deterministic way to target their loot while farming and it can seriously use some work to make it better and this not just because of what MG offers or because of any ladder.

wraith hazel
#

Yes, if I was an MG player, I would also complain about ladders 🤭

hushed crest
#

people in here seem to be very against improving CoF, which is a old standing trope with lots of situations. the old guard did it the hard way, so they want new people to suffer like they did. it's not just gaming where this happens

wraith hazel
#

The only suffering in CoF that I personally see, is some missing QoL features like a search among your prophecies and probably small changes that make buying prophs a bit more convenient.

delicate berry
# wraith hazel The only suffering in CoF that I personally see, is some missing QoL features li...

just let me ask you this: will it be acceptable for you after the event ends thats giving you 50% more favor right now so that all your favor is almost cut in half ? from the 150-200k people farm right now after the event it will be ~100k which is just enough for a handful of prophecy. how long do you want to farm favor and do random loot prophecy for a single item you want? days? months? ... years? never? because thats what you are facing when CoF stays as it is.

wraith hazel
#

I'm a bit of a competetive player, and all I can tell you is: I was happy with CoF in general before the event and I will be happy with it after the event.

Please don't get me wrong, the current favor income is awesome. Helps me even more to get a foot into hardcore, which I'm playing for the first time for a whole season. Also I would never speakagainst more loot if someone decides to do so. But all I can say is, that I'm personally quite happy with the possibility that CoF offers me.

But honestly, what is all this about, can you perhaps sum up for me? Lost track in the last 1k posts the last days 😄
If you think MG is so much better, can't you just pick MG and be happy yourself? Don't get me wrong, just want to get the point of this

delicate berry
#

well competetive is completely okay. i myself have a competitive past in other ARPG's (not PoE though). its just that i believe these are pretty bad examples of how doing it wrong when implementing trade. i.e the options for players that dont like to trade should be ramped up by a lot in exchange for the trading players being able to trade literally everything and as the factions exclude each other which is fine you have to choose. when you say "just switch" that isnt possible on the get go as because the loot you dropped by actually using the factions is bound to the faction level so you cant just switch on the get go without loosing a majority of your gear and starting from 0 and this is pretty much intended. so you are locked in your decision once you start using the faction mechanics and need to deal with it but by knowing how much impact trade has in other games i believed that this would be different as EHG decided against trading first most likely because they knew it would only cause trouble but in the end made CoF to somehow alleviate the problems trade causes on players.
so the rest of the TL;DR is that my believe (and im not alone with this) is that there need to be adjustments need to be done to not make it look like the inferior options where you need to grind 24/7 like a hardcore player to get the items (that still aint even rare. T6 isnt rare regardless) you want.

wraith hazel
#

the options for players that dont like to trade should be ramped up by a lot in exchange for the trading players

literally CoF 🤷‍♂️

delicate berry
#

yes. but more blanks means nothing. and thats what the current state is. it forces you to farm more and more and more while crawling through huge piles of blanks you dont need. is that really the way? and this with a faction that is meant to prevent that to some extend in exchange for allowing players to trade for the exact items they search for ?

wraith hazel
#

I still go with it, the factions seem to me really good balanced. Players of both factions complain for different reasons, cause they cannot achieve what they want, while players of both factions claim to be better. Sounds about right for me 🙂

delicate berry
#

let me ask this: how much favor do you usually get per hour?

#

what are you farming favor in?

#

i see so the same as i

#

so you get around 100-120k just like me i guess as i do the same but without beacon stuff

#

i usually dont clear out the mono echoes i just cruise through the objective

wraith hazel
#

But you don't expect 2 or 3 lp Razorfall to be realistic drop?

cinder marsh
#

the most i see about MG is refining the bazaar interface which i mostly agree with

wraith hazel
#

We're in a heaven for LP on uniques? 🤔

cinder marsh
#

plus the general early-cycle "why do i have to play the game to raise my standing with this faction" but thats not faction-specific 😄

cinder marsh
#

at least thats what the Renne guy was saying

wraith hazel
#

I think this debate is less about CoF vs MG, but about power levels and what is realistic to have end season and what not ^^

delicate berry
# cinder marsh at least thats what the Renne guy was saying

my PoV was especially related to everything non unique though. my initial post was about getting T6/7 affixes. it just developed that way towards uniques over the discussion but my initial intent is still that of getting T6/7 affixes. getting chase items i.e desired LP uniques with 3 or even 4 LP should be hard and rare and this also counts for MG players as because of the rarity they are rarely put in bazaar. CoF still offers the opportunity to get a random LP1 unique though which could be refined as LP1 uniques can be build defining but aside from that i agree completely that certain stuff should be rare.

but according to the uniques specificly: in most other ARPG's success isnt gated behind multiple rng checks like this. first you need to drop it. then you need to roll for LP. then you need to find the right exalted. then you need to not botch it at julra. consecutive probability multiplications. and were not talking about some gigachad BiS uberuniques just a regular build enabling 1LP items at most. and in that perspective CoF in its current state also doesnt help at all because as said earlier getting showered with more blanks doesnt make you success.

livid spruce
#

T6/7 is chase just like 1-4 LP
Success in LE is not gated behind LP

hushed crest
#

it is if you want to actually use a unique. a unique without any lp is way worse than a 4 affix 1 sealed affix exalted

livid spruce
#

No it's not, that's silly

hushed crest
#

look at some of the common uniques. like wing guards. the only thing it has going for it is high attack speed. you can gain way more dps from an exalted

delicate berry
# livid spruce T6/7 is chase just like 1-4 LP Success in LE is not gated behind LP

that perspective was mentioned specificly with uniques in mind though as said. and T6/7 is not chase when every build out there existing utilizes them early. chase items are chase items are high value items that you work toward. It helps to have a goal in this game so if your goal is to get X item thats your chase item. with how plenty T6 and T7 items drop even for MG this is rarely the case. a chase item would be getting a LP4 wrongwarp or triple T6/T7 or something like that. that are chase items.

livid spruce
#

Not all uniques are good, wing guards is a great example of a unique that will probably still be junk with 4 LP

hushed crest
#

no one here is trolling, it's a discussion. that's what this channel is for

livid spruce
#

they really are very rare

delicate berry
#

what? literally every guide ive seen on maxroll utilizes the T6/7 items as second stage in the char developement and not as last. chase items are literally exactly that: the last refinement touch. you make it sound as if single T6/7 are that which they are clearly not as then they would be at the last stage of equipment aquisition and not in the second after rares

hushed crest
#

i'm running a mace forge guard and every unique 1 hand mace has much lower dps than my 3 affix exalted

#

2 affixes is all it needs too, the suffix is like 3 health on hit

winter shadow
#

are you sure lol

#

2xt7 or t7+t6 very rare affixes on a high level base is definitely a chase

#

a very hard chase in fact

delicate berry
livid spruce
#

You are vastly underestimating their rarity and I know that because you don't lump them in with the other chase items

#

The game does not communicate their rarity very well other than by them just being really rare, build planners are just build planners

cinder marsh
#

Renne i have an extremely hard time believing you are farming 1000c and you are not getting any exalted with a usable t6/t7 stat unless that stat you are looking for like +4 to a skill or something

delicate berry
# livid spruce Are you not complaining about how hard it is to find them?

you have a 25% chance for a rare to be an exalted item but what you get is completely RNG so while the affix pool grows the chance for you getting what you want gets smaller. please understand that. getting more of the same stuff isnt getting you anywhere its the quality that matters not the quantity. and T6/7 items aint rare when you have a 25% chance to convert any of those rares into an exalted. the problem is getting the affixes you want and for this CoF offers no choice. i already explained the MG perspective many times i dont want to repeat myself here again and again

winter shadow
#

ok one more dude with the "quantity is not quality"

delicate berry
winter shadow
#

quantity will lead to quantity

livid spruce
winter shadow
#

learn basic statistic dude

delicate berry
#

ah yes

winter shadow
#

👆🏽

delicate berry
#

the chance for a chance for a chance for a chance

#

great concept

winter shadow
#

if you dont understand that simple thing i dont need to say anymore

#

🤷🏽‍♂️

winter shadow
delicate berry
#

i say it again if you really want to be hardcore then dont even join a faction then you can get all of your gear the hard way walking uphill both ways through the snow like a real gamer as it was before the implementation of those factions.

livid spruce
cinder marsh
#

no lol

hushed crest
#

i have no issues getting the exalteds i would want. at 100c. they drop like all the time and the crafting in this game is versatile enough that as long as it has 2 affixes i want, i have a chanc to make it work. it's really just target farming uniques with lp that seems not worth it at all, such a waste of time

delicate berry
livid spruce
delicate berry
#

for traders 👍

hushed crest
#

i'm not posting anything, i want to make my own build and as soon as i post it i'll get inundated with "you should have taken this, this one is better" if i have to look up a build and copy it that's bad

#

that's what drove me away from PoE

#

i never talked about that stuff... you are confusing me with someone else

#

ok

prisma vector
delicate berry
#

@frosty pelican its funny that all of my critics regarding exalted items already is concentrated down by a vast extend in your video here 4 months ago https://youtu.be/kL4meUguZPI?feature=shared&t=576
i.e affix targeting or proper item basis instead of getting showered with the whole stash of trash that you aint looking for at all
i really hope EHG is taking that into account when considering how to buff CoF

#

the item personalization is a really great suggestion aswell

frosty pelican
#

I have a lot of gripes about exalted items, I feel like there is a lot of room for player agency beyond just dropping more items. I don't think global drop rate buffs are actually "fun", players want to feel like their choices influence their character progression. More items in a vacuum wouldn't change how players feel about farming, it just moves the goalpost of what is "realistic gear" to some arbitrary new point

delicate berry
#

im curious. how are you standing with the exp reduction forced down making favor gains much less and so ultimately reducing the amount of prophecy you can do in a certain amount of time ? that video was before the change and you criticize it properly but do you think the current system is better ? ofc lower gear players get better favor gains now but that comes at the cost of the people that farmed 3k corruption before

#

(especially when we take the 50% favor gain into account right now so after that its even lower)

frosty pelican
# delicate berry im curious. how are you standing with the exp reduction forced down making favor...

I've talked about it and the communicated reasoning was that players felt they missed out if they couldn't do 4K+ corruption, but instead of alleviating that (as predicted in my pre 1.1 video on favor changes iirc) the meta shifted to minmaxers focusing on builds that can clear 1K+ as fast as possible. This feels even more exclusive than the 1.0 meta personally and it has also had the side effect of encouraging "setting up a farm" since you sit at a given corruption level instead of continuously pushing. To be fair, the absurd 8K corruption builds were completely unintended in the first place, but even still, with the level of gear some min-maxers had getting much higher corruption than the "300" or so the game is balanced around seems reasonable, just not the 8K+ we saw

#

I also don't think that favor is better for lower corruption / early end game, even with the favor gain boost because of how big the nerf to XP tomes was. In 1.0 early on you got most of your favor from XP tomes, in 1.1 that was reduced by probably 70% or so

#

For more casual players who didn't focus on XP tomes / worrying about playing "optimally" it's probably better, but I doubt these are the people comparing themselves to the minmaxers anyway and worried about missing out, if they were they probably also knew the meta

delicate berry
#

thank you for your words. i really feel that aswell. i would have thought that EHG when not wanting people to farm at high corruption at least make it desireable to farm at lower but instead of adjusting the gains regarding low and high end players they both getting put together and it only comes down to the beacon strategy at 1k corruption. so in the end both sides got punished even through it should look like a buff for the lower end players in 100c+. this becomes even worse when you take into account that the prophecy aint reduced in cost at the same time so stuff have same prices but you get much lower favor gains. and i especially dont think that low end players get that much favor to spend except they are farming for days or weeks before taking their prophecy

frosty pelican
#

I should clarify, I also don't think the game should be balanced around players like me, but I also don't think the favor changes were net beneficial.

delicate berry
#

no def not towards the end game as it is. more like the middle ground but without cutting stuff or forbids instead there should be other methods that are more favorable so that players dont feel focused to do a certain thing for good gains

frosty pelican
#

There will always be a divide between the most fun way to play and the most optimal way to play, and some players will always choose the most optimal even if it's only for a 5% edge, that's fine imo. It feels like the problem is that the optimal unfun strat is so much better that it is causing entirely different outcomes for similarly dedicated and skilled players, leading to FOMO.

For me the end game progression also felt much smoother in 1.0 because the XP tomes gave a lot early, then as you go higher they became less relevant compared to monsters. Now it feels like the first little bit before you can comfortably farm 300c or so is a slower progression

#

It's a steeper curve of progression initially basically, harder to get those first few good items to let you push

delicate berry
#

did you ever compare all those stuffs to what MG offers ? like the other way around ?

#

especially when you take into account that you aint able to use the player based market and are "forced" to find all your stuff yourself be it over prophecy or over passive buffs and normal drops

frosty pelican
#

Being excluded from the market is the whole point of CoF though, you word is as a drawback but it's intended to be more of an alternative, a different way to play the game

delicate berry
frosty pelican
#

I think MG should be better when played optimally by a skilled and knowledgeable player, otherwise no one would play it

#

The question is if the gap between the two is too large

#

I do think CoF is weaker but I don't know if it is so much weaker that it's problematic, probably a bit of improvements for some pain points would put it in a good spot

delicate berry
#

having the choice of selecting affixes or base items would for sure be a step into the right direction from my PoV even through several people seem to see that differently here

#

the "more loot" approach could also be an alternative althrough i dont know how i feel about this. i.e making prophecies cheaper so literally showering you with even more trash that you probably dont need in order to raise the chances that you possibly might get what you need without grind 10 hours every day

#

as more loot still doesnt necessarily translate into more quality

frosty pelican
#

If everyone suddenly has 2x better items, then within a few months people will be making posts that they want 3x better items, hedonic adaptation and whatnot, I think people want more tools to fine-tune their search, even if they are really simple and intuitive tools like "click this to increase amulet drops but reduce everything else" or "click this to spend 2.5x favor but only get T7 affixes from exalt prophecies"

#

The rate of gear progression overall I don't feel is that far off, its more of a player "feel" thing that sometimes misses for people

delicate berry
#

well mathematically you can win the lottery and this by just choosing the right 6 from 49. on an individual basis this will most likely never be the case. ofc there shouldnt be an over compensation for bad drops. but alone D4 already showed that people are not happy with lots of trash drops that make no sense and without any ways of influence. of course theres way more RNG than here yet you still have almost the same limited influence over it in LE as you have in D4 as just choosing some items where you still have no control over the affixes that the item may have making it exactly as bad as in D4 loot system and deterministic crafting which is just another RNG gate doesnt really fix that and as said as affix and item pool grows this becomes worse and worse as the pool of possible affixes gets bigger so the individual choice to get the affix you want on the item you want gets astronomically low regardless of increased drops of loot.

#

and this btw only for an exalted. taking LP unique or julra not into account

proud falcon
#

I'm a filthy casual and stick to CoF, but in my mind the main issue with CoF is that it's not so much a standard rate of progression like MG, it's plateaus with abrupt gains. That's inherent in any RNG based system, but the balance question is how long do we want the average plateau (time without desired item) to be. I don't mind where that is right now, per se, but if anything I think the nemesis system has highlighted one of the flaws with it, which is the 1lp plateau. On balance, getting lots of 1lps is great - but it really affects how progression feels, like Sentinel was saying. Ofc it's RNG, but the average player will get annoyed when they drop lots of 1lp uniques without getting 2/3lp of what they need. MG is more grindy, but the grind is progressive and progression itself is consistent, so you don't get as much of the feeling of being utterly "stuck"

#

tl;dr CoF is rng and that's how it's meant to be but the average player will occasionally run into plateaus that, depending on how you feel about it, may or may not be too long

delicate berry
#

i believe the average player wont farm long enough for even see a more rare 2LP unique regardless of CoF or MG which correlates to how a vast majority of the player base havent even gone past mono 100c. especially with all the other stuff thats needed to craft a legendary thats gated behind even more RNG which you cant influence aswell. for this CoF or MG doesnt offer any choices. but MG at least gives you the chance of getting what you want without too much RNG involved as you can benefit from other players luck and not just one but hundreds of players while for CoF you need to use prophecy or the rank passives to compensate for that lack as you need to drop everything yourself because you cant trade. the thing in question is if CoF compensates enough for that loss and if its a suitable alternative to trading i.e offering enough influence over the drops an MG player would buy from the bazaar and that is a clear no and will only change to CoF favor a little when its possible to select affixes or item base types to some extend.

stark compass
#

Cof is for people who wants to play long term and go for empowered corruption runs. Idk how people can't even hit empowered. It's not that difficult to get decent gear to hit 100c. Either those people are lazy or they just play alt characters

livid mulch
#

Question, in CoF when u take a "1LP" prophecy(more xpensive) can it drop as LP2 or more? Are the odds of getting LP2-3-4 greather than "normal prophecys"? THANKS

delicate berry
#

the odds are the same i guess though

#

to my experience you are better going with 4 of the 12-14k prophecy though

livid mulch
frosty pelican
# delicate berry to my experience you are better going with 4 of the 12-14k prophecy though

It's a fun question.

The odds are "better" but only better by the amount of attempts on average it would take to get the 1LP normally. Eg. for LP level 100 if 1 in 8 items are 1LP, then the 1LP prophecies improves your 2LP, 3P, 4LP chances by 8x because the 1 in 8 roll is skipped. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DLiKBOApPtBBm5prr185HU-iYM9k28ENFgz-voXpB-4/edit?gid=714715694#gid=714715694

The problem is that the 1LP prophecy is 25x more expensive than regular prophecies, so even in best case scenario removing a 1 in 8 is still 3x more favor per item than non LP prophs.

Also now that we have nemesis you could argue that the value of LP prophecies is at least twice as bad as before, since all 0LPs have at least the same chance of getting 1LP or more anyway, so I'd argue LP prophecies are AT LEAST 6x less favor efficient.

delicate berry
#

i never took them for that exact reason. althrough its on the same stage as bad when you get 0LP uniq that are simply rolled bad and so not even worth it to take as nemesis bait making the guaranteed 1LP ones even worse as they can roll bad too but with much more cost and you get less

#

so for uniques its quite the opposite from my experience when talking about quantity. as more usually gives you better rolls with more chances of higher LP than less but with guaranteed 1LP and this even without taking LP into account because the stats are fix and only roll in their value ranges. additionally to that theres only a few uniques that use the same base item. exalteds on the other side have a vast affix pool and several base items so more of the same is pretty bad when individual chances are too low already or the affix or base item pool for them to appear on is too great and even grows for the future when you need something specific.

#

it should be the other way around for this. with exalted prophecy costing 59k but giving you influence on the affix that you can select with increased chance of getting 1 T6/7 on that exact affix. that would be something. prophecy would still be expensive but at least give something of value that you can work with instead of huge piles of trash and very bad chances.

delicate berry
#

@frosty pelican
if we have lets say 15 suffixes and 15 prefixes and we want to aim for say 1 of the 15 suffixes and 2 of the prefixes. this is rounded figure of around 10% chance.

now we have 8 bases and we are targeting 1 of those 8 bases as usually this is the case this would be a ~12.5% rounded up to ~13%
combining both now the chance of both of these occuring naturally is about 1.5% and even if CoF would have a 3x higher rate of drops because of prophecy or passives than normal we would have just ~4.5%.

this means every item you drop over prophecy would have roughly ~4.5% chance to have the right base and 2 prefixes and 1 suffix you want. this math does NOT even include the chance to roll a bad 4th suffix on an item that makes crafting necessary which can fail nor does it take into account affix or base rarity as affixes are not equally weighted in rarity additionally this is also only calculating the chance for this item to HAVE those affixes this does not mean that any of those affixes will be T6/7. so you can literally spend millions of favor and not see any of it to drop or you can get lucky and get it right after the second prophecy and then you can still fail in refining. this system needs so much tuning to make it acceptable without forcing people to grind their asses off for 10 hours each day to farm. this math above becomes even worse if affix pool and base item pool grows so roughly every season and i can really not understand why people even find this acceptable for a single item that might not even be BiS and with all the other RNG that is involved.

livid mulch
#

Nice debate, maybe that LP propechy can be "usefull" when u have ZERO items of that and its a really rare item to have on LP2, but its a very "rare case" and yes, i think they need a bit of love on that matter by devs 😉

frosty pelican
delicate berry
#

should just remove them. everytime i search for prophecy i have to take care not to click on the 59k wrong one and waste my hard earned favor for it

distant leaf
delicate berry
#

i farmed up 700k over the last 3 days with 500k already used yesterday with 2 drops of 1 T7 exalted affix out of all the prophecy it was mostly prophecy with 24 boots drop

wraith hazel
#

There's a famous quote from Rockefeller, when asked "What's enough?" he replied "Just a little bit more".

I think someone said it in recent days. If they would increase the favour gain to for example what we have now with the event, it would not take long and people would ask for more. This has no end 🙂

Personally, I can completely understand you addressing exalts as the last major "problem" in CoF, as it can indeed be the most frustrating part of getting your stuff together. I can understand addressing the "1LP" prophs, and I also think there's a lot of QoL stuff you could do for CoF (faster reroll animation, unique images for everything, search function, and much more).
But if you ask for general buffs across the board, I fear you will not be heard at all.

delicate berry
#

I think someone said it in recent days. If they would increase the favour gain to for example what we have now with the event, it would not take long and people would ask for more. This has no end 🙂
There would always be people like this taking that as an example to not change anything, is bad though. The magic happens when you find the middle ground in the value of time of the players and the gains you can get out. Right now the CoF system forces players to play a massive amount of time for literally nothing more than a chance, and as a result, when nothing drops, frustration hits as all the time you invested is just wasted without any gain. Additionally to that, even if you pass that chance and drop the item you want with the affixes you want, there's other RNG stuff like crafting/refining that can still make all the work you put into it earlier, like farming up favor, going through prophecy, pursuing prophecy, and getting the item to actually drop gone to waste. The RNG is pretty unforgiving, just like in PoE. In D4, for example, the dropchance for the rarest items (the uber uniques) has ~2% chance, and these are usually a considerable upgrade as they have fixed stats and only roll in their value ranges, just like a unique in LE. For T6/7 affixes, this is not the case, as you need to go through several other RNG gates first before it becomes relevant, despite the fact that they make an elemental core part in gear progression in LE and are not just completely optional if you want to refine your char and push it into the higher realms of gear progression. The question is if the time you have to invest is worth the outcome, and especially when we talk about legendarys where you need so much more than just a T7 affix or unique with LP to drop in order to pass all the RNG gates that are thrown at you and that you can't influence, this is clearly not the case.

wraith hazel
#

It would make it much easier to read if you capitalized the beginnings of sentences and occasionally inserted a paragraph. ^^

delicate berry
#

im trapped in chat jargon :I

wraith hazel
#

Yeah it is super hard to read, up to a point where I give up and only fly over the rest you have written. Would like to show you more respect, if you make it a little easier for us to follow

delicate berry
#

btw @wraith hazel what happend to your red ring ;P

wraith hazel
#

Guess which resist I rolled! 😄

wraith hazel
#

But as I said ingame on that topic, even more as I play HC this season (my first whole HC season ever) I planed with naked RR and everything I get on top is a bonus for me.

And up until now, I could always slam a T7 eventually when I tried it. 🙂

delicate berry
#

i only played HC once during my D2 carrier the feeling of getting killed unexpected when put in so much time and love into your char is just not the thing for me xD

wraith hazel
#

Yeah that is why I mention it, I'm of course playing a complete different pace this season 🙂

delicate berry
#

tbh i just hope somehow that after the 20th october when the event ends adjustments are made already as i can not imagine myself farming double the time for less favor just to try in getting something to drop

wraith hazel
#

Even more as HC beginner

prisma vector
#

Yea I feel like if they don't do a mid-season rate boost after the event or introduce something amazing for CoF/crafting/slamming (next season?), I'm not sure many will stick to this game for so long.

#

It's frustrating to have crap internet -> play ssf -> be trapped in this endless cycle of finding not good enough items and no way to "juice" up drops. Meanwhile High Corruption bonuses get nerfed so that allegedly low level players feel they don't need to get there, but in truth obviously high corruption farmers will still get better loot. Can we actually get our due rewards for putting in the time to get to a high level?

delicate berry
#

CoF isnt meant as SSF though

#

the problem is just that even if you get something to drop after getting through all the farming with favor and doing prophecy that you might still end up with trash if crafting fails and this by already having pretty bad rates for something to drop what you need i.e the base item you want with the affix you search for and this with T6 / 7 at best

#

as said i cant imagine myself doing 6 days for favor farming to get the same amount that isnt even enough right now already to be acceptable that i have now

#

and i just refuse to do the "advanced favor farming strategies" like beacon as this feels like somebody is sucking your soul out of your body after a while

prisma vector
prisma vector
delicate berry
#

i know that theres SSF but they are on the same scale as HC players

prisma vector
delicate berry
#

i mean yeah like everyone gets its own quantity sure but i meant more like quality increases

#

like getting increased chances for rarer drops to drop

#

because of the group

prisma vector
#

sorry for not being clear. I mean we can have overlapping filters to give each other loot. So it plays out better than PoE

frosty pelican
# wraith hazel There's a famous quote from Rockefeller, when asked "What's enough?" he replied ...

Pretty sure I said that, but the point I was making was not to comment on whether or not the current rate of drops is good, it was just an observation of how change is always viewed through the lens of recency bias. As a change comes it feels novel and is talked about for a bit, then after a short time all future changes are again measured against this "new normal".

I also feel like a lot of people fall into the "well if drops are fun, obviously more drops would be more fun" or "this RNG thing makes me upset when it doesn't go my way, we should remove RNG" traps, but I don't think that's a productive line of thinking that leads to good game design.

If the net result of a change is that players on average have better items, all else equal, the game has been made easier relative to the current content. Sometimes this is fine, but it's important to consider game balance when having discussions like these.

I feel like if a lot of players had their way we would just continuously have incremental increases in player power relative to content until the game is almost entirely deterministic, trivialized by insane gear / overpowered skills, and ultimately boring.

delicate berry
# frosty pelican Pretty sure I said that, but the point I was making was not to comment on whethe...

how much fun is it though when a game builds with systems based on frustration? i watched your video about the RNG and why it doesnt have to feel bad. how did you feel as your 3LP wrongwarp got bricked? is this really the system you prefer? that RNG gods determine what you deserve and what not? theres a reason ARPG's have unique items implemented with fixed stats. its meant to remove the need to drop certain affixes by going through piles of trash when affix pools are great and this while still making sure the player doesnt feel bad. the only exception to this would be stuff that is completely optional.

D2 has an infamous past with rune drops. PoE has had a long past of player retention for very bad decisions regarding drop rates. either by removing elemental parts of gear progression or nerfing stuff that people enjoyed because it made them feel powerful and in a way to control the fate of their stuff (harvest?) bad game design is when you make the player feel bad on purpose but without giving him ways to counteract against this. isnt this here the case?

you cant influence droprates directly (magic find anyone?) you cant control the actual crafting outcomes because a huge chunk is random (deterministic crafting yes but only for the lower end of gear where it doesnt really hurt as T6 / 7 affixes can not be crafted thus you are forced to drop them perfectly or refine them as they are with taking the risk of destroying the whole item with just one failed craft) , same goes for legendaries.

you said for yourself how psychological bad it feels when you miss a 75% chance something that you should actually never miss at the high end of crafting result yet its in the game and theres no way for you to influence that. is this fun? is this what keeps players playing the game? i say no and the past shows this. i believe players want to be rewarded of the time they invest into the game. everything else is just the PoE experience where trading dictates the players success.

frosty pelican
delicate berry
#

you misunderstood my statement

#

what i mean is that you should actually get something out when you invest 100s of hours into the game

frosty pelican
delicate berry
#

its about the feeling though. how did you feel in that exact moment? all your hours wasted for what ? is this acceptable ?

#

the usual player will most likely never reach that kind of stuff we are discussing about

frosty pelican
#

Having moments where you feel bad is not the end of the world, without those moments, the good ones are meaningless

delicate berry
#

its bad regardless to have this

frosty pelican
#

You say "you should get something out when you invest 100s of hours" you do though

#

look at the gear I have on that character, it's insane

#

I think we agree that the feel of the system could be improved, but it sounds like we disagree on how

#

I don't want my 3LP there to just "poof" succeed every time like magic, I want to make the process a conscious decision that this particular craft is extremely important to me, so I will sink something of value, or accept some sort of drawback so that there is a weight to the decision, to influence the outcome

delicate berry
#

you played for much more than 100s of hours though and you said yesterday? that you dont expect EHG balance the game around your playstyle. dealing with loss is one thing but dealing with losses is another. as said the usual player will probably not reach this kind of stuff or have this kind of experience to deal with it.

he will just go away which is ultimately bad for the whole game and this just because you decide for systems that are not rewarding the player enough but instead force big amounts of frustration as the droprates are so astronomically low that when you finally get one and it fails you invested so much time already that you dont want to try again.

ive done dozen of rune runs in kurast in my past. over 2k runs until i finally got my infinity. but this is only 1 RNG and not several. you knew after just you invest enough time into it you will have it safe -> this is the feeling players want to have.

frosty pelican
#

At what level of gear are you satisfied though?

#

it's a moving target

delicate berry
#

the main goal in ARPG's is getting max rolls on every part of gear with everything BiS. i have almost 300 hours invested into the game yet i have not a single item in my posession that has max stats on every affix. and this by only playing 2 chars. is this valueing my time enough ?

frosty pelican
#

So 4LP everywhere? or no

delicate berry
#

of course this would contribute to everything BiS

frosty pelican
#

So you believe that 4LP everywhere should be achievable with enough grind

delicate berry
#

no i say it should be at least viable to reach without investing like 1k hours into the game because the individual droprate of items is so low that at one point you loose interrest. at some point in your gear progression you reach the state where it becomes harder and harder to upgrade your gear as the items are extremely had to get and its only minimal percentage differences yet are no chase items that define anything or are completely optional.

this point should be much more flatten. infinity wasnt a chase item either back then in D2 it was elemental part of some builds that didnt function without yet it was incredible hard to get as the droprates of runes were as astronomical low as LP4 uniques. most people relayed on trade for the runes to get it which falls completely flat for CoF enjoyers as they cant trade. so there have to be other systems in place. systems that are forgiving.

back then in 2000 the playerbase for ARPG's were mostly consisting of people going to school or college the genre was completely new. nowadays most ARPG's enjoyers have family or work to do. they dont have time to grind 10 hours each day. they have binding commitments. the playerbase is completely different compared to back then. it was acceptable back then to have very hard to get items with abysmal dropchances. nowadays its not and PoE shows this with a completely trading based system.

winter shadow
frosty pelican
#

If you could realistically get perfect 4LPs in all 10+ slots in say 200 hours, then you'll never have the allure of dropping an item that you couldn't otherwise just farm. Part of the loot slot machine in ARPGs is that at any point you could drop an item that you would never expect to have dropped, and this happens on a regular basis, it just isn't the item you expect. Like when I was farming for a 3LP+ Ladle and dropped a 4LP Dragorath randomly, not what I wanted, but really cool and tried some builds with it.

#

Perfect items don't need to be achievable, it's this weird completionist attitude that just doesn't make sense to me

#

I feel like if EHG just removed 3 and 4LP from the game that would make you happier, no?

#

you'd have the chance for perfect items

#

I guess I'll say I don't think that's a flaw with the game, I think it's a flaw with expectations. And that doesn't mean the game doesn't also have flaws, to be clear.

delicate berry
#

farming and grinding are completely different things though. farming means you search for a fixed amount of stuff where you already know beforehand that at some point you have farmed enough that you can stop and get what you want this works best with no RNG influence involved as everything other is just the second which is grinding and defines a way of doing the same dull stuff over and over just for chances to take which might never approach. which of those two is more fun and time valuing?

what else is the reason to play an ARPG when you know beforehand that you will never be able to perfect your character regardless of how much time you invest which is literally the essence of every ARPG ?

frosty pelican
#

If the ability to achieve perfection is your prerequisite for a journey to be enjoyable then I don't think this or many other games will be your cup of tea and that is okay. You can't have a one-size fits all "perfect". If it's achievable for the average person, it will be trivial for people like me who play way too much and optimize hard. If it's only achieable for people like me, it will be extremely unrealistic for the average person. The point of the gearing being the way it is, is that each player will have a different definition of their "aspirational" gear. And each player playing a different build will have different pieces depending on their luck. You and I might play the same build and you could drop a 4LP Wrongwarp, I could only find a 2LP Wrongwarp but instead I find a 3LP Blood of the Exile and a 3LP Prismatic Gaze.

I feel like this is not going anywhere tbh, we fundamentally disagree on that core issue of game balance, bed time for me! Cheers

delicate berry
#

If it's achievable for the average person, it will be trivial for people like me who play way too much and optimize hard. If it's only achieable for people like me, it will be extremely unrealistic for the average person.
take a look at the new D4 addon. blizzard finally got to understand after several failed seasons that people dont want to deal with abysmal droprates and boring grind for levels and stuff and lots of trash gear. people are able to do stuff and farm obulus for example to get parts of the best gear in the whole game over the gambler where you are able to select specific parts of gear. this is not guaranteed but gives people enough to do and the outcome is only related to how much time you invest and isnt reliant on dropchances or the passing of 5 RNG systems. this is a fair system. you decide what you invest your time in and are not reliant on that RNGJesus pity you with a blessed drop that you didnt expect. the magic word here is target farming.

#

If it's only achieable for people like me, it will be extremely unrealistic for the average person. The point of the gearing being the way it is, is that each player will have a different definition of their "aspirational" gear.
this only works as long as different players have different playstyles and builds. sites like maxroll or LETools offer build choices with fixed gear requirements that many players follow and that you cant just skip or work around as then the build as whole doesnt function anymore. in the end you are forced to go with that and deal with the consequences of having to deal with the vision of "different definition of gear" but that doesnt help you to progress or finish your gear requirements to play the build.

delicate berry
#

You and I might play the same build and you could drop a 4LP Wrongwarp, I could only find a 2LP Wrongwarp but instead I find a 3LP Blood of the Exile and a 3LP Prismatic Gaze.
neither of these 3LP+ is guaranteed or even remotely archiveable in a reasonable amount of time by normal means not even statistically and you know that as math guy so i dont know why you pull out that example. at the same point you could also stand there with nothing while i get all of these or the other way around just because one of us is blessed while the other one is not and this while we have the same amount of playtime in the example

wraith hazel
clever stratus
clever stratus
primal cave
#

So what was the point of the debate earlier?

livid spruce
delicate berry
# clever stratus this is only your definition PoE is not about this (it can be if you really want...

what really? have you ever asked the top end gear people what they do when they are craft? when they craft stuff they pay attention to create mirror worthy items or in other words items with perfect or almost perfect stats with either very high or perfect rolls everything below that is usually sold out as trash in the trickle down economy. so saying that thats not the actual goal in any ARPG is false.

delicate berry
clever stratus
#

and when it is like that, it is not very smart to get mad at a game that it does not let you have top roll perfect items

delicate berry
#

you said that goal is false for actual ARPG enjoyers which is clearly not. people who "just want to beat the game and be done with it" are not the target audience for an ARPG as they are usually gone way before they played with any of the systems.

clever stratus
#

have you any evidence to support that or just personal feelings?

#

specifically 'not the target audience' thing

#

because if you look at PoE retension, more casual league mecahnics have the best player retension

#

if you argue that arpgs are for 500 people in the whole world, then I have nothing to say really

#

I'm not trying to say that current last epoch systems are perfect, they are far from that, but everything you said will not make game fun for most people

#

for you, maybe

delicate berry
# clever stratus have you any evidence to support that or just personal feelings?

i already said that earlier: go back to 2000 / 2001 where a high majority of the player base did hundreds of boss runs or rune runs or any other kind of mindless farm. and look at the playerbase. they were mostly teens or early adults going still to school or college. these same people that invested hundreds if not thousands of hours are the target audience for any ARPG now. but times have changed. these people aint the teens or early adults anymore. time went past that and they have family, work, commitments. they dont have time to farm 10 hours each day just to get an item you want. if you ever followed the outrage on D4 when it came out that 98% of the drops are trash and you even have no way to filter that out you would know what i mean.

clever stratus
#

you make no sense

#

have you ever asked top geared people, who are target audience
2 messages later
these people aint the teens or early adults anymore. time went past that and they have family, work, commitments

delicate berry
#

you dont watch streamers do you? its a good example of these people. many of them are older than ~30 or even 40 today but enjoyed D2 in the past. ofc with exceptions but that doesnt mean the statement is wrong.

clever stratus
#

do you understand that streamers spend 10+ hours in a game daily usually?

#

at least those who do mirror crafts, as far as I know

#

they dont have time to farm 10 hours each day just to get an item you want
streamers do have that time actually

delicate berry
#

strange. every streamer i knew of that past is using the stream to earn money. so they do this as job and not because they have the time to do it.

clever stratus
#

lmao

#

I don't even know what to say, it's just THAT stupid

delicate berry
#

just ask the streamers that had almost no income when D4 performed bad so they were forced to play alternatives to keep their income. 😉

clever stratus
#

I mean, from what you are saying I can conclude that everyone should have the same items that streamers acquire by playing efficiently for 10+ hours a day for a few weeks, even if said everyone are playing 3 hours a day once or twice a week

#

and if it's not like that, then it's automatically bad

#

and current d4 is a perfect arpg

#

both takes are as schizo as it can get

delicate berry
#

i said from the start that its about the time investment differences. except for streamers who do this as job base to get their income other people who dont do that still have other commitments to do so they will most likely never invest that 10+ hours daily into the game yet still value the ARPG as whole and so expect that the time they invest even if its just 3 hours a day like you said gets something in return.

i also didnt say D4 is a perfect ARPG as this just doesnt exist. i said every systems we know today off are based most likely from D2 where low droprates were acceptable. but as said times have changed since then.

clever stratus
#

if that is what all players want

#

how come when they 'got what they wanted' everyone suddenly left after playing for 2-3 weeks

#

maybe min-maxers are not the main audience of the game and people actually enjoy chasing something?

#

when they can set goals that are not easily achievable, they can enjoy game longer?

delicate berry
# clever stratus how come when they 'got what they wanted' everyone suddenly left after playing f...

thats pretty easily explained. as these are not the core target audience. these are the players which we discussed earlier that want to just "do the campaign and then quit the game" i doubt any of those has played long with the amount of systems of the game. also for PoE you have to take other stuff into account as minimal changes can make people leave. just look at what happened to harvest when GGG decided its a good idea to nerf it. the community outrage and thus many long time players quit made a dent into the reputation of the whole game until today with players that never came back and playing other ARPG now.

clever stratus
#

bro I just can't, you waste so much words to say nothing

frosty pelican
#

also idk what the whole streamer point is, but most of us who main LE don't make anywhere near enough to do this full time from content, just saying. I have a full time job and all that stuff just like most of y'all, gotta pay the bills

clever stratus
#

so as you said before, 4LP in every house for every family member or some shi

delicate berry
#

and somehow the fact that people make money out of playing that much makes them... not play as much?... I'm not sure
the difference you dont understand here is that because of the fact they are earning money with it they will continue to play regardless as thats their job thats how they earn their income. a player that has a limited amount of time because of other chores to do will most likely not reach that amount of time yet still wants value out of his invested time. and even if you want to see this as just my opinion now i do believe when you spend like ~500 hours which is already pretty unrealistic current day into the game you should be at a state where you almost reached everything on at least a single character (this includes rolls on gear) as this would be a playtime of around half a year with 3 hours daily yet you are still far away from that point even after that.

clever stratus
# delicate berry > and somehow the fact that people make money out of playing that much makes the...

But all of that is not achievable with increasing drop rates/increasing favour gain/reducing prophecies cost, for what you are advocating.

If we really want it to be like that, we need some way of targeting stuff, and here we get into 'does it really work' territory.

Target farming works, for example, in PoE, because
A) While most uniques are regular drop, most of build-defining ones are drop-restricted
B) There is no legendary system in place, the only way to get unique better is to divine it for better rolls of what there already is, or to corrupt it and having to get unique again if fails (you can get maximum 2 affixes this way from a small pool, specific for item type, boots and body armour would have different pools)
C) Stuff that you use for crafting is also drop-restricted or has preferred ways of farming (beyond demons for tainted currency, blight for oils, ultimatum for catalysts, etc.)
D) Crafting is not limited per item, you could spend weeks on doing exactly one item if you want to

#

All mentioned above are in the very core of the game, and it is different from LE

#

To have anything you advocate for in LE would not solve anything, since the 'problems' are in the core systems, not just in CoF

delicate berry
#

well yeah thing is all of the above is why PoE is hated so much by people that just want to drop gear even on a target farming perspective as the BiS items are usually not just "target farmed drops" but instead have more to them in order to get them like doing specific stuff at a specific level and such idk what not.

all of these systems force players into the trading section which is not enjoyable at all for most of those players i believe? this is where PoE left the way of giving people proper alternatives in order to just drop something very good and be happy with it and focus onto the hardcore players that invest lots of their time into the game while neglecting everyone who cant do that completely as consequence many players who were okay with early stages of the game because "it looked like D2" already left for good me included. so if you rather want a game focusing heavily on trade because it doesnt offer any real other alternatives PoE is a prime example of doing so.

clever stratus
clever stratus
winter shadow
#

he wants a way to deterministically get the items he wants in X amount of hrs

#

no matter how many words he use it all comes down to that

#

and that X is very low

clever stratus
#

so, target farm or petty system

winter shadow
#

which is impossible unless you get rid of RNG in the game

#

imo LE legendary system itself already provide that in a way

delicate berry
# clever stratus can you please stop wasting words on nothing and make your points more clear? I...

the tl;dr is simple i dont know why you have problems in getting it: if you dont want to have trading make sure that players get their stuff without it thats the whole tl;dr of this discussion. as CoF you cant trade so you relay on drops. now how long do you want to farm or grind for certain stuff when the amount of time youre are able to spend is limited? 2k maybe 3k hours? even more? for a single item? really? going back to D2 times where veterans spend ~20 years and never saw a tyraels might drop ? this is what you crave? games should be all about fun games dont give you money so its not your second job you know?

clever stratus
#

Because ARPGS are no longer JUST about getting off to your character having bigger numbers

delicate berry
clever stratus
#

In a system where most items you get from ground drops?

delicate berry
#

yes

#

as this is all CoF is about right?

clever stratus
#

Around half of the season's lifetime with me playing 4-5 hours daily

#

But it's me as a person

#

I am not relevant in what is ideal and I don't have any data to support my preferred playtime

#

And what is preferred by me is clearly not preferred by you

delicate berry
#

of course dont worry in understand that difference but so around half of a season so uhm ~1.5 months as seasons in LE usually last 3 months right? so ~45 days and around ~200 hours right? and now look at current state of LE again and tell me is that realistically possible?

winter shadow
#

i really like FrozenSentinel's talk about ppl finding the "dream item" - but not for their actual build, those kind of thing will push ppl to make different builds or give their own twist and makes even meta/pop build has character
And that's what i want to see in any ARPG i play - diversity

#

instead of "oh i wanna play this build so i have to get this get that" why not "oh this thing is not for the build im playing but it's so sick i should make a build around it"

delicate berry
clever stratus
#

If we want to make acquiring specific items easier, but keep it balanced, we need ways of trageting stuff, not just increase everything, so prophecies for certain affix tags or item bases for t7 farm

#

What to do with LP? Idk
Should even something be done with chances to get 4lp? Idk, don't have data

#

The thing is, most people NEED chase items to be in the game to continue playing

#

Hence why in 3.24(the league with oversaturated unique market) people quit PoE on 1/5th of the league timeline

delicate berry
# clever stratus If we want to make acquiring specific items easier, but keep it balanced, we nee...

this is literally my core part from way above at the first stages of discussion. and i got called out for that. scroll up and read my statements about this i literally said exactly this that either give people a way to get affixes i.e select them over lets say a second set of lens or something OR just outright buff the favor gains and lower prophecy cost which would shower you with even more trash than already now but raises your "chances" much more. the second option still can waste your time though.

delicate berry
# clever stratus The thing is, most people NEED chase items to be in the game to continue playing

D4 also has chase items. the uber uniques. they have a 2% drop chance from their bosses though so its not astronomically low as certain LP4 uniques here. you are right chase items should be there for the reason you said. the question is how hard it should be to get them for current day. also the items you are talking about i.e the single T7 are not one of those yet they feel like it when trying to get one with the right base

delicate berry
# clever stratus Hence why in 3.24(the league with oversaturated unique market) people quit PoE o...

i dont know how it was as i was long gone since then but according to this the league had way different problems which explains it and neither of them seems to be the "easy way of getting stuff" its rather ranging from being "way too complex and overly complicated" to straight out "unfair and not time valuing at all regarding the investment needed for the rewards you get" when played out right
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLgP6j8vlFk

guess people WANT to be rewarded by the time they invest.

clever stratus
clever stratus
delicate berry
#

well yeah when the porcelain is shattered already theres nothing that can be done. you did a mistake and it didnt work out as you tried to fix it. maybe you should have known beforehand on how to do it right.

clever stratus
#

Or maybe, just maybe, there should be balance of RNG and player agency for it to feel fun

#

Or, hear me out, most people care about there actually being a reward

#

And not about it being something BiS for you

#

Because it's not like first week had bad rewards, it had no rewards at all

#

And then people were given all of rewards at once

delicate berry
#

i mean like when players leave because they dont feel rewarded enough it doesnt matter anymore what you do afterwards when the players have left already. they wont come back regardless of what you do. the only thing you can do is learn from the mistake and make it better next time. but regarding kalandra it seems that GGG didnt learn their lesson from this debacle.

clever stratus
#

I don't argue that after fixes people should've come back

delicate berry
#

why does that matter? peoples trust is shattered already. the bad news are out there regardless of if you shower them with godlike loot.

#

ofc more and more people leave the sinking ship

clever stratus
#

But oh no, people are not rewarded for their time blasting maps with mf gear

#

Maybe, just maybe, actual audience wants there to be
A) actual content
B) SOME reward
C) core systems that interact with eachother in meaningful ways

#

Maybe people value build diversity over the ability to equip bis gear in every slot guaranteed

#

Maybe people want game to feel good not only by amount of items dropped

delicate berry
clever stratus
#

Overall amount of players starting the league is almost historically high with almost best retention right now.
Game is obviously bad, lmao

clever stratus
delicate berry
#

well hyped over the incoming EA release of PoE 2 at the end of this year this isnt unexpected you know? these are most likely not the long time players you once had that will stay in the game after even the league ends.

clever stratus
#

This is even irrelevant to what discussion was about

delicate berry
# clever stratus If some leagues were bad, game is bad, okay

i didnt say that. but players are not stupid. they dont forget bad leagues as its psychological. so next time they will think twice if they really want to give it another try or just stay away from it. this only counts for experienced players though as first time players are clean slate and only know "whats in the news".

clever stratus
#

If it was about something anyway

clever stratus
#

You cannot POSSIBLY give a second chance to something you liked before, nuh-uh

#

And again, it's irrelevant to what we were discussing

#

Although now I can see generalisation 'I am like that, so every other person is like that' much more clear

#

Something about CoF being too weak because it 'does not reward you for your time' or something

delicate berry
# clever stratus You cannot POSSIBLY give a second chance to something you liked before, nuh-uh

The Betrayed - Probably the largest group of those who would be labeled wimping-detractors are those who rightfully feel betrayed and hurt by the immortals. These players have invested very significant periods of time on the mud, and have raised themselves up to a certain level of skills and spells by hard work and initiative. They have gone to great lengths to get the equipment they feel is best, and they have developed a persona and a playing style around the items and rules originally supplied to them by the gods. They operate within the rules and use the equipment and spells to its fullest advantage - as well they should - and then some Imm notices it and BAM. These people have a genuine sense of betrayal. That which they were allowed to earn is stolen from them by the very Immortals that they counted upon to do right by them. They have lost abilities, or had them significantly blunted by those who once said "We made this game for you, and for your fun.". Instead those same immortals are now telling them "If you don't like it start a new character or your own mud... we know what's best". When the immortals take that attitude it simply reinforces the betrayed's feelings and proves him right.
this sums it up properly i guess 😉

clever stratus
#

It's worse, 'I want BiS items to be more achievable and I want them to drop NOW'

#

Sorry, it's unnecessary mocking

#

It's just funny

#

I'm getting tired of this conversation and don't feel rewarded for time spent, so I'm not gonna continue

#

You can delete your paragraph

delicate berry
#

i just wanted to clarify that

gleaming mirage
#

I dunno, with BiS not really being viable, you get to call what's good enough, I like decision points

#

Though for build guide followers, that does muddy the water compared to if perfect items were real

wraith hazel
delicate berry
#

i believe "good enough" falls under the premise of "its good enough to get the build running but far away from optimal"

#

even if the build guide covers this kind of stuff you are usually well advised to not follow it blindly

#

if you want to reach the pinnacle though BiS items are mandatory and almost every build on maxroll for example reflects this

#

(except for level builds maybe)

livid spruce
#

I am pretty sure (or maybe just hoping) that absolutely no maxroll build has true BiS items with all 4 LP and multi-exalted stuff in every slot. They do minimal/early gear and then a few iterations beyond up to one that is aspirational - that is, they definitely don't expect anyone to get all those items slotted in (i.e. NOT mandatory), but it's there so you know what to go for when you do get lucky on the slots you do.

#

And if by "pinnacle" you mean Aberroth, the gear you need for that depends on your build, and unless it's a very weak build the gear you need for that comes nowhere close to BiS.

delicate berry
# livid spruce I am pretty sure (or maybe just hoping) that absolutely no maxroll build has tru...

hey do though. almost all maxroll builds work around with maxranged affixes of T5/6/7 from the get go something that you would most likely never get even with crafting as the roll ranges can most likely never be maxed all and FP is limited. you can even see it in all build calculators and how the build is made as complete. all of them builds are clearly taken with max rolls of affixes into account regardless of tier including uniques as they stand there which you can especially see at how resistances are provided when many of them barely make it to 75 even with all the max rolls on gear or limited the amount of lower to reach cap by only slightly overcapping

#

the only exception to this is certain uniques that have 4LP because they have such a abysmal droprate that you will never get them anyways regardless of how much you farm

#

multi exalted stuff isnt featured no at least not in the early stages the later ones do feature multiple max roll affixes even as T6 / T7 and this aswell with everything else even if its just T5 on max rolled values

delicate berry
#

when i say "reaching the pinnacle with your char" i mean of course the gear and skill level. with for the gear is owning several at the very least good not perfect BiS non unique item so let me define it for you: perfect base type with max rolled implicit, 4 affixes that you need for your build with at least 2(better 3) of them T7 (this is where its not perfect BiS as this would be all 4 affixes in T7 with all of them maxranged), sealed affix at least T2(better t3 but same thing as before a really perfect BiS would have a T4 here with maxranged)
a good but not perfect unique would need the same as above yet with 4LP at least 2 of them T7 (truly BiS would be all 4 affixes in T7 with all of them maxranged so the same as above) and max rolled base stats on the item and implicit

i believe neither of these is in any way archiveable yet at least not in a reasonable amount of time (<1k hours and this for a single item btw). and neither of this are truly BiS as this would need all affixes T7 and T4 on sealed.

livid spruce
delicate berry
#

??? i dont get that

#

you said maxroll builds dont work with maxed affixes i say they do and just taking a look at a single build on maxroll you can see that in the build planner all affixes are rolled to the max not a single affix is badly rolled including T6 / 7 so i say all of the builds there are taken with maximum rolls or better said best rolls in mind even if it comes to T6 / 7

#

if for example they would take availability into account they would not do that and instead provide actual imported characters with gear samples

#

to get an idea

#

instead of simply setting every affix to max over the build planner

livid spruce
#

I didn't comment on roll ranges, you said "if you want to reach the pinnacle though BiS items are mandatory and almost every build on maxroll for example reflects this" and that is definitely not true.
I don't know of anyone that really cares much about roll ranges in planners.

delicate berry
livid spruce
#

So we're back to where I was before where you agree that they don't put BiS items in their planners

#

and they definitely don't reflect them being mandatory

delicate berry
#

i didnt agree lol i said they work with maximum values

#

and this is the actual case

#

what do you not understand in that sentence xD

livid spruce
#

To put it like you said, "these are not truly BiS items"

delicate berry
livid spruce
#

Does it matter? Take 2-3% more damage or you don't follow the guide 100% exactly because that's just a planner build

frosty pelican
#

This isn't PoE if you are missing 5% res you don't take that much more damage, it doesn't matter

delicate berry
#

alright lol

#

rofl

#

in order to make the best char possible you cant just say "oh yes that 3% who cares" you know

frosty pelican
#

Max rolls are honestly more realistic, people will prioritize the affixes that matter to them and usually have them maxed

#

3% literally is "who cares"

#

I min max harder than most and I often don't have maxed res, even when playing in HC

livid spruce
delicate berry
#

imagine being forced to take additional risk because the game cant provide you with the tools you need so that you can loose a char that you can not recover

livid spruce
#

and I also don't assume that they will all be perfect even at that

#

it's the difference between plans and execution

livid spruce
delicate berry
#

when you use a build planner the goal is to come as close to the outcome of the build planner as possible though and this for example is also the literal goal of every ARPG to get the best items possible in order to make the best char possible

delicate berry
# livid spruce Do you play HC?

i did during my D2 time which is very long ago yet i would have been never like that to take the risk of uncapped resistance and loose my lv100 toon to a stupid mistake

livid spruce
livid spruce
delicate berry
#

you are successfull already

#

why keep playing

livid spruce
#

I make new characters

delicate berry
#

yeah you see this is the elemental difference between us

#

i dislike twinking or doing several chars. i like to concentrate on one or maybe 2 and try to make them as perfect as possible.

livid spruce
#

Right, that's why I say success means something different to everyone, because I already know you have very different goals from the typical player (as do I)

#

I personally really enjoy certain things being unfeasible to farm, means I don't feel obligated to farm them and that sometimes I can get lucky with a wild 4 LP drop and then I can build around that

delicate berry
#

at some point you will reach the "actual possible" because of the drop restrictions what are you doing then

#

just making new char?

livid spruce
#

I probably make a new char long before that tbh

delicate berry
#

isnt that like really boring to start a new over and over and loosing all your invested time

#

it literally feels like a HC death

livid spruce
#

No, the opposite, it's boring staying on the same thing grinding for minor improvements on a build that can already crush the game

delicate berry
#

it just feels like wasted time for me to start all new because every investment you did is just gone when you do that which is also why i will never understand why ARPG players like season mechanic

#

i at least believed CoF would provide me with all of that what i mentioned above

livid spruce
#

I do honestly think you might enjoy a different genre more than ARPGs, since they do all tend to gear towards that, like you said. I'm just not sure if there's a genre that fits for what I think you're looking for.

delicate berry
#

im playing ARPG's for almost ~25 years now though i believe its wrong to say i dont like them lol

#

guess i just dont like what became of them

#

but that is not my fault

livid spruce
delicate berry
#

in the early stages of PoE it wasnt like today until GGG decided to nerf and force players to comply with their decisions ultimately leading to trading only

livid spruce
#

For me it was more, they stifled my ability to make meme builds function 😂

delicate berry
#

you should have seen how GGG wimped when players criticized their map system when game was in beta and early past release because it was totally unrewarding. it took 2 full years for them to understand that players want a sustainable high level mappool and not repeating the same low level stuff again and again to have a chance for a higher map to drop

livid spruce
#

Heck, when they got rid of the whole repeating the campaign a bunch of times, the game became fairly enjoyable lol

frosty pelican
#

The character I speed farm 700 corruption with, and got rank 1 HC arena with, did not have maxed res, not BiS gear

#

but it continued to get incremental improvements

#

by your system it would have been finished a long time ago, then why keep playing

delicate berry
# frosty pelican It's entirely possible for a min-maxed HC viable character to have less than 75%...

no its not. by accepting something that hurts your surviveability and not capping max resist at any time is such a case you put your char at risk on purpose and already gave up on the thought of never dying with it because then you would have taken enough precautions like actually capping the resists instead of running into the unknown of getting hit in the wrong moment and loosing the toon completely. true hardcore players that value their character and time invested into it would never accept that.

frosty pelican
#

Did you get rank 1 HC arena in LE?

#

I did

#

I'm not saying that as a flex, it meant nothing, competition was low

#

but you are dead wrong

delicate berry
#

try it again on 1k corruption or above because thats where the action goes and it becomes hard where just 1 mistake can cost you your life

frosty pelican
#

1K means nothing, it's an arbitrary line in the sand you are drawing based on nothing

delicate berry
#

alright

frosty pelican
#

I could do it then you say okay do it 1.5k

#

either way you are completely wrong, here is an example

delicate berry
frosty pelican
#

My character had something like 46% poison res

#

capping it would literally make me LESS tanky, because I am sacrificing something else

#

except my FC character has permanent cleanse

delicate berry
#

what i mean is try it again with actual risk of loosing your char when you just do one mistake and this by knowing that you aint capping your full surviveability so any hit in that direction becomes incredibly dangerous

#

this is what the true hardcore feeling is about

frosty pelican
#

giving up something else to cap a res that isn't that important is not worth it

#

part of optimizing is understanding what matters

#

and making choices

delicate berry
#

making choices in cutting surviveability when your goal as playing HC is not to die really? lol

#

you rather cut dps for surviveability but not the other way around because that would be just stupid for any HC char

delicate berry
#

this is the exact problem

frosty pelican
#

Okay, let's say you know the largest fire damage hit in the game is 7000 and the largest necrotic is 3000, you obviously cap fire, but even if your necrotic is at 50% the fire is still more deadly

#

So instead of capping necrotic, in that case

#

getting say DR, or armor, would likely be more beneficial

#

In my case, instead of capping poison, which isn't much of a thread due to my build, I get more armor, more ward

#

which gives more EHP against stuff that matters

delicate berry
#

you talk under the premise of NEEDING to cut one surviveability mechanic for another which is completely wrong when you play hardcore. instead you cut DPS in favor to reach higher surviveability and cap everything for it because dps doesnt do anything for you when you are dead. you exchange DPS not res vs res. you take the whole cake in surviveability and fill the dessert with dps

frosty pelican
#

If I cut DPS the stuff I can kill before it gets an attack off will now hit me

#

When I killed abberoth with veteran boots the hardest part was losing DPS

delicate berry
frosty pelican
#

We do know the actual numbers what?

#

plus even if we don't

#

I know what almost hits hard in 300 corruption so when I push to 400, 500, 600, etc it's still the same threat

#

You have been arguing with everyone you get the opportunity to in this channel for the last few days, and haven't presented anything to indicate what you say has any credibility. I tried to discuss in good faith here but I am convinced you must be trolling at this point. Going to block now, cheers

delicate berry
#

what do you do when after one patch a number changes and becomes incorrect so that you die from poison damage because you didnt cap it and it wasnt documented change? will you then write the support that they restore your char because you didnt know that change or say they didnt put that in patch notes properly? what then? this really is so negligent

#

alright rofl guess i should just leave this server when people i thought being great already coming and talk about putting the fate of their HC toon into the hands of dev dmg numbers literally trusting them blindly because they seem to lack the experience that these are subject of change even without telling and thus loosing it at some point when doing a false assumption they thought they are prepared for clearly unbelieveable but i am the wrong one and troll. now i clearly understand why so many people argue with me just accepting everything as it is because they want devs to decide for them. clearly sad.

#

you shouldnt play hardcore

gleaming mirage
#

Look, if your HC toon was so close to dying that a "single minimum undocumented change" would outright kill them, that is a good time to cut DPS for survivability, yeah

#

But also those changes are generally documented, and stuff like that having a chance to occasionally happen is kinda what you sign up for with HC

#

But most importantly, unless you're playing HC as a piece of paper, you'll notice something is off way before you get in a situation where a minor numeric change gets you

#

And that's all if they happen to make a mob stronger, happen to forget to document it, and it happens to be of an otherwise non-threat element, all while the devs know that people play HC and know that HC community understands the asymmetry between resistances and how to play around it

clever stratus
obsidian magnet
#

Guys, what is this channel for exactly? The MG can be to discuss about price, but what is this one purpose?

livid spruce
obsidian magnet
cobalt wigeon
#

When a prophecy reads "Fulfilled 0/2", does that mean I can fulfill it twice for the same reward twice?

livid spruce
primal cave
feral relic
#

All I have to say is people dont kill Ubers on PoE on HC by having capp'd resistances across the board. They have the nastiest glass cannons that exist. The point of that statement, Renne if you are still around, is that FrozenSentinel is not incorrect. There are areas of the game where X resistance doesn't matter, because that damage isn't dealt anyways. You CAN swap gear to flip flop Res for DR/Armor/Etc to have mediocre resists in favor of a stat that will keep you alive. Lastly, if people want to "put the fate of their HC toon into the hands of dev dmg numbers trusting them blindly blah blah blah" you do it each time you log in, hardcore or not. You're not going to walk out of one area and into a one shot unless you weren't prepared anyways, this is with minimal LE experience and Maximum PoE experience (~9,000 hours) and the same still holds true so far in what I've played. I've died plenty. I also learned the area, the mob, the reason in almost every case and walked more carefully, or adjusted before I got there, with less than 300 hours on LE and I'm hitting 80's-90's on HC with not a ton of difficulty so far. While you aren't entirely wrong you should consider the advice given in that, you do not necessarily have to be capped across the board for some fights etc.

Re-ignites the fire 🙂

delicate berry
# feral relic All I have to say is people dont kill Ubers on PoE on HC by having capp'd resist...

You are true with that. The difference here is though that the statement was made of artificially not capping resistances because you trust dev damage numbers and thus believe you dont need them which ultimately results in you laying the fate of your HC toon into the correctness of the devs that they dont do a mistake with dmg numbers when coding which happends a lot btw as this is how bugs work. If you play hardcore you have to get a certain mentality and this includes that you do everything needed so that you dont die. This is your utmost job. And factoring in that devs do their work properly when past in any ARPG showed that they dont this is on your fault and you have literally no right to call other people out for that when they say you are doing it wrong.

Secondly: Even if you can kill stuff before it can hit you you have still no guarantee that it 100% works so just a single misalignment on your side can cost you your HC char which is why you always try the best solution as is being prepared for any circumstance at all times to make sure you dont die and never trust values you have no control of. Ive seen a lot people die in D3 HC because they misjudged the possibility of devs doing mistakes with coding monsters when juggling numbers and then they write blizzard support to get their chars back or even threathen and insult them. I doubt people that take HC serious want to be like this. And as math guy i would have expected from frozensentinel to know this but yeah i was disappointed and getting flamed instead not my problem. The fun fact is when you have a HC die already and need a video to analyze how it died by finding out that all monsters ingame have damage variance. A mechanic thats known since D2 and is nothing new but then coming here and tell players that play ARPG for over 20 years including several years of HC experience in D2 and D3 that they are wrong lol. I dont want to argue further about this he blocked me anyways so w/e.

feral relic
#

I cant even finish your first sentence because its false. No one artificially didnt cap, they literally didnt cap. It also isnt because of trusting dev numbers, its because incoming damage can be felt and when you have resistance and take that damage you can "feel" the damage by watching the health bar. That the first sentence. You're trying to live in some imaginary world where someone is never going to die in HC. It's going to happen, it's part of it. Understand the damage you are receiving is part of understanding the game you are playing with all arps.

pulsar tundra
feral relic
#

Precisely

#

Or that the damage numbers scale so greatle that 75% damage of something larger than your health pool, means you will be one shot--and that will also happen.

#

I want to be clear, 7,500 (minimum) of those PoE hours, were hardcore only.

delicate berry
# feral relic I cant even finish your first sentence because its false. No one artificially di...

i had a D2 HC char that i played for over 3 years without death on online ladder several times back then in 2006 what are you trying to say? if you believe that you cant stop yourself from getting killed then you should not play HC as to stop that exactly from happening is your job. back then i died because i myself did a stupid mistake that i would have never done in the earlier stages of my HC game.

feral relic
#

I think you take HC gaming a bit too seriously.

delicate berry
#

loool

feral relic
#

No one said "you cant stop yourself from dying"

delicate berry
#

imagine playing HC and not taking it seriously

#

what

feral relic
#

The comments were, specifically, you dont have to have a capped res for something you arent receving that damage type.

delicate berry
#

idk

feral relic
#

You know like...lots of fire damage received in the icy tundra's. You might take A LITTLE but mostly...gonna need that cold.

delicate berry
pulsar tundra
#

at the end of the day, hardcore is a self imposed challenge and there is only so much you can control. If you died due to bug, you signed up for this. Just report the bug and go back to the keepers camp on a new character. or dont.

feral relic
#

I think you're reading "46% resistance" as "0% resistance, with no armor, and naked in the grass ticklin the jinglies--with no dodge, crit avoidance, evades left, movement skills, health potions, a minion to possibly take the aggro first, physically moving your character out of harms way"

#

There...i fixed it.

delicate berry
#

in the end you cant play perfectly at all times and there WILL be mistakes on your side as you are just a human so in the end you NEED to be prepared for every possible outcome to compensate for your own stupid mistakes that you will probably make but not doing this and saying "ahh i dont need it because im so perfect and i know the damage numbers exactly" is playing lottery with your HC char until that final moment where you do a mistake and cant prevent the inevitable outcome anymore

#

i call something like this negligent

livid spruce
feral relic
#

Bro that's like saying "you need to be born with 5 masters degrees so you are prepared for adulthood when you get there and if not, you're gonna die a slug"

#

Sorry Toast 😛

#

Ok I'm out peace! 🙂

livid spruce
#

I skipped a few messages in there, but imo if someone can't handle dying to a bug, it's probably better for them to not play HC

feral relic
#

Exactly. IF you are SOOOOOOO worried about dying in HC that you are literally shortening your actual life by constant elevated blood pressure, you should seek SC and just enjoy the fun options you may not be able to on HC, because yes...you will die.

delicate berry
#

i mean if you decide to play HC and take it lighthanded you will probably die early thats a given. dying to a bug is never great but dying to a bug you could have ignored when preparing properly as the difference would have mattered with capped resistances for that particular stuff is a big difference in my eyes

feral relic
#

It's a big diference to have Zdps and 1000,000% tanky and Decent/solid DPS & still super tanky...and farm specific places/monos/etc with higher DPS gear, trading some unnecessary resistances in said zone, for more DPS.

livid spruce
#

The thing FS gets by being a math enjoyer is that optimization does not mean "pick the highest in all categories" - everything you pick has an opportunity cost, and while capping resistances might be optimal in some cases, it is not guaranteed to be optimal based on what you need to give up for it.

feral relic
#

Do not forget, you are not always trading the Resistance for damage, you're trading it for a different type of defense that serves a better purpose for your character, than a specific capp'd resistance, because that damage type is more or less non-existant in that area

#

so 75 all res except poison for example because you're in the icy monolith, you're not fighting a ton of poison insects/snakes/spiders etc, you're fighting cold damage mobs.

delicate berry
feral relic
#

so you trade 1 item that has 20-30 Poison in favor of a crit avoidance, , dodge, armor, etc....

#

I played PoE the day it launched dude. And Diablo 1. And D2. & D3. And D4. And Grim Dawn.

#

Dont assume things.

delicate berry
#

if you did that how can you come here and state these things you should have become more knowing at what can happen if you go into stuff unprepared for every circumstance

feral relic
#

How many times you drive down a 1 way road, and ALL the cars are going the wrong direction?

delicate berry
#

lol

feral relic
#

This is what you are doing, right now. Everyone else is telling you that its possible and you are wrong.

#

You aren't 100% wrong, your strategy does work...in some cases slowly

#

But for you to blindly write off needing 75% in ALL resistance, is false if you KNOW you are not receiving a damage type because that boss you're farming, or area you're farming, doesnt HAVE that damage type...then it doesnt need maxed, trade that for something useful. That's the entire point youve missed, over, and over, and over.

#

Having 75% across the board, works, sure. NEEDING it for target farming, means its smarter to not waste those stats on unnecessary things.

delicate berry
feral relic
#

Renne, that is EXACTLY what FrozenSentinel said above. About knowing what you dont need, because of how his character is built

#

Scroll up and re-read it.

delicate berry
#

he said he knows the exact damage values and thus doesnt need to adjust resistances towards it

#

that is what he said

feral relic
#

That is PART of what he said.

#

I think the whole argument is rather silly overall anyways because to me....its really not that hard to get capp'd res. One minute they're "solid" and the next, you're rather overcapp'd.

livid spruce
delicate berry
#

so you want to tell me frozensentinel does all the monos echoes only when he knows beforehand that the mobs he knows would kill him because he skipped resistances for it in these echoes doesnt exist in the echo he does ? and i just understood it wrong really ?

feral relic
#

No I'm saying he said that because of his build he doesnt need capp'd Poison res and he trade that res off from items/part of his build for other items, regardless of location.

delicate berry
#

but he said that because he trusts the damage numbers 🤣

livid spruce
#

Normally you would only change your build to fit a timeline when you're leveling or have an otherwise weak character, but yeah you can do that too I guess

delicate berry
#

w/e really. im blocked anyways so why argue

feral relic
#

Just like he could have...68% of one.....73% of another....152% of another. Changing gear, as you play, sometimes has the tendency to leave a blank spot and at that point you can focus on not that damage type for zone farming/nob or boss farming. Makes sense, surely.

livid spruce
winter shadow
#

cmon guys i think it's pretty obvious at this point that this will lead to nothing

#

save yourself sometime and jsut block

obsidian magnet
ember flume
#

whast the best way to rank up to 12 ? random monoliths till ure good ?

livid spruce
prisma vector
livid spruce
#

Pretty sure the current farm strategy is the same as 1.0, get to the corruption you want, find a beacon echo on the right map, then set up double 40% xp modifiers and grind the beacon on repeat without ever completing it

#

but just speed farming echoes at a decent corruption has always felt good enough for me, much less hassle

frosty pelican
frosty pelican
livid spruce
delicate berry
#

Tbh if it was someone like LizardIRL with way more HC experience than me in this channel being like
ah yes. relaying on opinions from people with "fame". great idea. i still remember kripparrian falling down when it came out that the gear he cleared his world first diablo 3 HC diablo kill with was just burrowed gear from stream viewers for the most part and he even insulted the guy that burrowed him the gear afterwards. a great idea to only trust idols for opinion because they of course are never wrong. 😆 but w/e

livid spruce
obsidian magnet
distant leaf
#

That person is 100% best blocked. Adds nothing but negativity and absurd opinions to the community

obsidian magnet
#

He block people that do not agree with him.

gleaming mirage
distant leaf
#

Well that's some value

young otter
#

hey when can i Joiun this thing? when i finish the campaign?

livid spruce
obsidian magnet
rustic grotto
#

Reduced the cost of Legendary Potential prophecies by around 50% in total.
So this change made me wonder, at what point are these prophecies worth it. They are +1 lp right?

From some quick spreadsheet action, it looks like in the old situation the next LP level needed to be 25 times rarer then the one you had before. In the new situation it needs to be 18 times rarer. This puts us at 2lp with lpl ~65+ or 3lp at lpl ~45+.

Anyone else looked into this?

livid spruce
gleaming mirage
#

Do we know how exactly that works? Because there are two very distinct ways this could work:

  • items are effectively given 1LP if they roll 0LP; >1LP chances are the same
  • items are effectively rerolled if they roll 0LP, or the 0LP weight is set to 0; All LP chances are scaled up proportionally to fill the 100%
#

Well I don't think I'd use either even at 50% reduced prices

livid spruce
hazy elm
#

Except for rings iirc

livid spruce
rustic grotto
#

1lp ring prophecies are 10.5x the price of normal 14 ring prophecies. 1lp red ring is 1 in ~8 for Cof, or 1 in ~4 if nemesis has the same LP chances and all 0lp red rings are thrown in.

gleaming mirage
#

Well, even something like the red ring has 6.12%, that becomes 6.73% at only 300 corruption, which in turn becomes 13.46%, the min 1LP prophecies would have to cost less than 7.42x per ring than regular unique ring prophecies, even less if you push corruption further

#

Oh yeah, forgot about Nemesis giving straight LP rather than just modifiers

rustic grotto
#

If rings have the best cost, and red ring is worst case, then everything else is even worse. So, unless it is indeed +1, they are useless.

gleaming mirage
#

Yeah, one 1+ LP ring would need to be like half the price of 14 rings just to be marginally worth it for an incredibly specific use case, while ignoring that it'd be worse for all the other drops you'll get while chasing the red ring, ignoring nemesis granting raw LP, and ignoring other nemesis outcomes possibly being good

#

The one thing it does well is reward players being knowledgeable enough to not use it

weary hound
#

Would anyone purchase rare item prophecies for rank 6 and 11 COF?

livid spruce
weary hound
#

subtype? 👀

#

rare prophecies can have specific base items?

weary hound
#

oh my 16 bone amulet x fulfill 4 times for only 1750 favor heavybreathing

#

it is kinda illegal unless you dont need bone amulets' implicit

#

sadly i wanna get jade amulet instead and there seem to only have bone amulet subtype

livid spruce
flat shell
#

Are lenses not working? I equipped the '+80% cost, double uses of prophecies' one, yet I'm still getting mostly prophecies that expire after one completion.

weary hound
#

Usually they start working after 1 reroll. I have never seen them not working. A bug?

cobalt wigeon
#

If I have 2 prophecies, one that requires me to kill T1 Julra and one that requires me to kill T2 Julra and I run a T2, does it complete both prophecies?

livid spruce
cobalt wigeon
strong tide
#

Anyone wanna farm 1k corr? I’m also farming 2lp flames of midnight #RoyaleBlue

broken spade
livid spruce
broken spade
graceful thunder
#

does anyone have any extra vigorous large shadow idol of insulation? been farming 3 days no luck (legacy)

distant leaf
#

I'm confused. Why are you asking if we have extra? It's not like we can give them to you

graceful thunder
#

you can when you play together you get mats that let you trade items with you playing with.

wraith hazel
#

<@&1161418687471956101>

#

Also in MG at least

unique inlet
#

the prices of some propechies are bit wierd... here 7k for 2x16ww chests and then 10k for 2x8ww chests :S

livid spruce
#

maybe has a different number of times you can fulfil it

steep trellis
#

The new cost is really appreciated after the XP nerfs,now you can do maybe 3 full prophecies tabs instead of 2 before

halcyon coral
#

So if your doing a build even slightly off meta MG is worthless. The community was already halved by Separating CoF and MG. then due to the cost of favor in selling items nobody bothers posting anything but whats in the meta

distant leaf
#

Usually the reverse is true, where you can get 3LP off meta for 100k, but 3LP meta for 100M

winter shadow
#

keyword is always "population"

#

nobody with a clear mind plays off-meta build in MG at this point of a season

random path
#

any one have high currption?

hushed crest
#

is there a prophecy for gaining glyphs of envy in the idol telescope?

livid spruce
cobalt wigeon
#

Is there a prophecy that rewards weaver's will items for accessories like Rings/Relics?

livid spruce
molten cove
#

I need a cof starter pack advice.. all of my chars are in MG. what should I do

feral relic
distant leaf
hushed crest
#

if i get a prophecy to kill Majasa, does that mean that uniques that drop from her from the prophecy will have low legendary potential since it's based largely on area level?

distant leaf
#

No

#

The only effect that matters is corruption, and that's a pretty meager effect on LP

#

I think its a 10% bonus to have any particular LP level at like...500 corruption

#

There's no area level effect

spare granite
#

I think someone did an extensive test and uniques from prophecies isn't affected by corruption with LP, on uniques from drops and rewards are

#

I saw a video a while ago and someone did a test with thousands of unique to do some statistics

distant leaf
#

I'd definitely ask for a link before I believed that, as the devs have directly said that is not true

livid spruce
#

It would have to be very extensive. Tbf the devs have also said area level affects prophecies in some way, but we have no idea how

urban turtle
spare granite
#

yep, that's the data sheet in the vid

spare granite
distant leaf
#

Hey folks, I just want to clarify this video does not, and is not intended to, definitively prove that LP is not affected by corruption, the sample size needed to have sufficient confidence would be massive and as an individual I am not able to do that. This is just my own sample that is large enough to give an idea of expectations, and shows that even with a fairly large sample, small differences will be hard to notice by individuals

#

That is a direct quote from Frozen on this

#

This is Frozen saying "don't worry about this", not saying "This does not matter"

distant leaf
livid spruce
#

There is a very high chance he is wrong on this one though.

#

(As opposed to his statement that corruption affects prophecy LP, where Mike made sure to validate that it does with someone who knows the system well)

spare granite
#

Tbf at least on frozen's sample size the effect of corruption on prophecy seems so minimal that it does not really matter. Sure there might be codes in the game that determine prophecy to be affected by corruption but from the results we see in the vid the effect is either non existent or the % is so minimal that you can just simply ignore it when you're farming prophecy

#

Iirc in POE some people actually did a community event to test some of the in game farm strat so they'll have a bigger sample size for statistic. Couldn't remember if it' TFT or some other channel. It was kinda cool but either way I don't think LE has the population to do that anyway

livid spruce
#

Yeah, what we do know of the LP chance boost for corruption is that it's very small. Not worth a ton of rerolls over, but mono peophs are generally good also just because you can fulfill them while you farm normally

distant leaf
cobalt wigeon
#

What lens combo do y’all run for efficiency? I tend to do 2 lenses for what I’m targeting (for example 2H axe + exalt) and then use the 3rd slot for the “90% more expensive but double rewards” one.

wraith hazel
#

Double rewards, double uses and what ever helps targeting

cobalt wigeon
#

Yeah that's probably the move

#

Thanks!

misty vigil
#

Is there a difference between completing the prophecy Diamond Matrons in the Upper Temple and in the monolith 1000c?

#

I mean the LP and WW point roll

#

Hummm, and Exalts

livid spruce
misty vigil
livid spruce
misty vigil
#

Does lens cost more not work with unique one-hand axes, bro?

misty vigil
#

How do I turn off system notifications when rolling prophecies?

livid spruce
misty vigil
#

When you roll prophecies, the system notifications appear in the chat box, notifying you of accepted and rerolled prophecies, which pushes all my chat content away

livid spruce
#

Oh, don't think that's an option

whole hornet
#

anyone had bug when you not get full props reward on completion ?

urban turtle
whole hornet
#

just going to log in again. had problem like every reward with bows uniques rewards

urban turtle
whole hornet
#

can i pm primate ?

urban turtle
whole hornet
#

oh i failed totaly on modmail chat but yea first need report ingame ... my bad

#

but now record i get 5 uniques of 8 unique prophecy 😄

misty vigil
wraith hazel
deft lintel
#

The effect that has the 45% chance to preserve a Rune of Ascendency if an item has a requirement of at least rank one. Have tried it at least 20 times, and it's never worked. If I was tossing a coin with that level I would be writing a Tom Stoppard play.
Is it broken, or did it just never work?

#

Also, why do Prophecies only offer stuff that requires Corruption 160-290 when I haven't even finished the normal echoes? (and am really not planning to) What's the point of only offering Prophecies that can not be completed? I am not really even bothering going to check them any more, because I had barely finished The Black Sun the first time and it was asking for 160 corruption stuff.

wraith hazel
#

If you use a lens, that blocks "high corruption" you can do all monolith prophecies in lvl 100 areas, most even in normal timelines.

At the Rune issue, it defenitely worked a few weeks ago and I don't think we had a patch. You are looking for items, that have the little CoF symbol in the lower right corner, right?

deft lintel
# wraith hazel If you use a lens, that blocks "high corruption" you can do all monolith prophec...

Yeah, I have set a filter to look for items and I have been confirming that the icon is there.
Have checked my recordings, and there has not been a single one I have done that didn't consume the Rune.
At the start I didn't realize the CoF rank requirement, so that was on me, and that was when I set the filter for items that were faction locked; and since then it's still made no difference.
Still consumes 1-2 runes.

wraith hazel
#

Did you check the actual rune count? Cause if I remember correct, there was a visual bug in the display of the used rune.
Also if iirc it sometimes displays to use 2, but never actually does.

Honestly a shame that I don't know this for certain, I should 😄 But I'm quite sure 🙂

deft lintel
#

I have been checking the rune count.
I did notice that sometimes my rune count seemed to be inconsistent, but it has never not consumed a rune. It's possible that the consumption of two, which is happening, is then having the rune come back.
If you are curious I have a link of this happening on video.

rustic grotto
#

If you put an item in the forge, then go to runes and check your rune count for rune of ascendance, say 871 in my case. Then select it, open the rune panel again, it lists it as 1 lower, or 870 in my case. The "mising" rune is currently "active" in the forge panel. Clearing the rune selection then lists the proper number again, 871 in my case.

deft lintel
#

Weird, I will check this out.
It seems to show the rune count under the run in the forge, and it goes down by two (sometimes, sometimes only one) when I forge the item, and doesn't go back up by one (or two) when I close the force; but I haven't tried clearing the rune.
Either way, this is confusing and it really doesn't look like the CoF bonus has ever worked, but with this display bug it could be but basically invisible.

Looking at my recording, it shows the number of affix shards when I am doing normal crafting, and they just go down by 1 each time I use one, but the RoA will go down by 1 or 2 each time. It seems like the CoF bonus just bugs out the display.

coral arch
#

Can you still get runes of creations from prophecies?

livid spruce
coral arch
#

Thanks, i guess i am just unlucky then.

livid spruce
#

it's fairly rare

vast void
#

What makes CoF so good for min/max is it the prophecy or the rank bonus?

wraith hazel
#

Well actually, both!

Prophecies are the best way to target any global uniques and some of the rank bonus are insane too.

rustic grotto
#

There is a third, if the gear you want does not exist on MG. Farming for it yourself takes much longer without CoF's bonusses.

blissful tendon
#

Is there a better way to farm/earn gold as CoF? I have a chronic loot goblin hoarding problem and want more tabs but it seems to take quite some time to earn that gold.

steady urchin
fringe compass
lavish rune
lavish rune
wraith hazel
fringe compass
#

Ehh, the 1 extra minute picking up the jewelry is well worth it imo

wraith hazel
#

We can agree to disagree on this one 🙂

Imo you get enough gold for a very smooth stash tab progression and if not you may keep too much

#

I personally love LE for dropping vendor "gameplay" entirely

fringe compass
#

Yeah, that's totally fair! I personally also haven't really ran into gold issues without it but started doing it recently just to safe up some gold :)

idle galleon
mighty halo
#

did they ever change prophecies so if the Harbinger was enabled they would trigger after killing the Harbinger?

stable hamlet
coral arch
#

My Abberath seems to be locked, the area didnt reset. Killed him 3 times, with loot from the previous kills still on the ground, since thats annoying i left the game and entered again. Now it says: "Your Allies are facing Abberoth ..."

Is that a common problem?

#

Fixed it by restarting the game, still weird.

stone raft
#

Hello guys, what do you do with the unique items without LP are they worth keeping in stash? or just sell them all

wraith hazel
stone raft
wraith hazel
#

There's a few you can play, but mostly green is useless, yes.

Usually you know if there is an interesting set for your build

stone raft
wraith hazel
stone raft
#

yes, I just set a message on the Mage classes chat here. thank you really appreciate it

stable hamlet
#

But that would be considered having a use for it I suppose.

rough adder
#

new to CoF, am I right that the loop is simply : farm faction points, find what I want, reroll if there's none I want, collect prophecies, do said prophecies, repeat?

wraith hazel
rough adder
#

ooh cool

umbral saffron
#

Another one to the loot explosion club Gregory

misty pawn
#

Hi, when targeting certain items, do I just grab all prophecies on the item type I can find, or grab only the activities I like doing? For example right now I’m doing a bit of rerolling and only getting prophecies on killing rares and bosses in monos because I enjoy doing monos. I rerolled dungeons and arena prophecies. I’m not sure if this is good.

umbral saffron
#

I run double rewards and double usage on all 4 with blocked campaign, could maybe repalce that one tho 🤔 dungeons are easy and fast to do if its just to kill rares, if its a boss it just depends if you can kill it or not 😄 I'd personally reroll arenas and try getting monolith prophs, even tho I need better rings from arena's crimson champ

idle galleon
# misty pawn Hi, when targeting certain items, do I just grab all prophecies on the item type...

i do wealth, rhyme and the item type i'm looking for, then i roll over activities i don't want to do, like amber elementals in lightless arbor or fire lich in soulfire bastion. i'm starting to roll over exiled mages too cause they are just too infrequent to keep up with my prophecy completion rate. i also skip orobyss cause the corruption i'm farming at (1k), he's annoying to kill when i just want to relax farm.

for monolith rares, just be careful about some of the specific mob types like void horrors especially. even in the timelines that have them, they are rare, though i think one of the quest echos has guaranteed spawns, but who wants to do those. the others are less rare, but if your timeline doesn't spawn the creature it will sit in your prophecies until you change locations. i like to farm echos in spirits of fire timeline so i can do everything but diamond matrons and void horrors. this timeline has no boss prophecy so i am free to do whatever i want with it. i leave the other timelines at a comfortable corruption and farm the bosses when i get their prophecies.

i don't mind arena runs since it breaks up the monotony a bit, the only ones i skip there are the specific bosses if it's a 6 uses prophecy. if it's a 2 use specific i'll go for it since it's likely i'll run into 2 of that boss in the handful of runs i'll do to complete any arena prophecy i pick up. dungeons rare prophecies are some of the fastest prophecies to complete, actually, and you are constantly slamming legendaries, so temporal sanctum is a good place to do those and julra kill prophecies. i skip Majasa cause she doesn't have a close waypoint and you have to go though the cutscene once, but Liath has a close waypoint so I do her prophecies.

being less picky about your content will keep things fresher and you'll waste less favor on rerolls so you'll improve your favor efficiency, and maybe burn out less quickly in the process.

gleaming mirage
#

I tend to pick up even activities I'm not super pumped about, let multiple prophecies of the activity build up for a while, then complete them in parallel

jolly trail
#

How is cof vs launch?

wraith hazel
jolly trail
wraith hazel
#

Yeah, cof got buffs in 1.1 and is better in targeting boss uniques now.

umbral saffron
#

Idk about some number changes, but I think we also got 2 new ranks (used to be 10, right?) and some ranks got swapped around

wraith hazel
#

I'm thinking about it but can't remember what the second added rank was 🤔
150% Boss uniques is obvoius, but what was the second?

rustic grotto
#

double experimental items from mages

#

which is super confusing why they didnt apply that to nemesis base types as well, and hopefully they actually add a bonus to what ever new thing we get in 1.2 this time around.

rain socket
#

If you grab a prophecy, for example, boots (1 Legendary potential), is that at least 1, or is it just 1?

umbral saffron
#

I think Vlad said you can get more than 1lp, but the chances are most likely not very high, prophecy itself is for very few uniques (like 1 or 2? idk) and the price is also usually super high

rain socket
#

8k usually, yeah

#

so if you want some higher lp, probably just best to not waste on that prophecy

#

makes sense

#

I don't think I pick up any 1lp anymore anyways

#

either nothing, or 3+

livid spruce
rain socket
blazing birch
#

was this confirmed

#

i guess it could be replacing all 0 with 1 actually that would keep the odds identical

#

but yea good discussion, always wondered about that too

livid spruce
limpid karma
sinful pawn
#

Ok so its a bait then? Those prophecies are so expensive

livid spruce
blazing birch
#

they gotta delete these immortal eye propechies man

#

they do not exist

idle galleon
blazing birch
#

yeah, havent found any yet

#

been trying bloodworks in bfdeath

undone swan
#

some how over like 400 unique rings dropped over last couple days and stll no phantom grips

wraith hazel
undone swan
#

just a 2 self crit with 1-2LP lol

wraith hazel
#

no PG in 400 rings is straight up not possible ^^ You misscounted, or have overlooked a few ^^

undone swan
#

i coulda missed some for sure

#

but it still feels low

#

im sure ill get them soon enough

#

surely i can get my int PG's soon haah

umbral saffron
undone swan
#

i hope so

#

ive seen so many liath rings its crazy

wraith hazel
undone swan
#

cheers 🙂

urban turtle
# undone swan cheers 🙂

Here - ✨ Loot Drop Boost ✨ (single use, can be used for 1 (one) item or weapon or armour/gear, results not guaranteed) - use it wisely!

umbral saffron
#

What are some general thoughts on having 4th lenses slot? Would it be way too much or some really nice QoL?

gilded lark
#

a band aid on a corpse, the prophecies have problems that will not be fixed by adding more of the same - they should just rework how the lens work completely

#

perhaps making each lens a more expensive and nuanced item that is more challenging to craft, but that would allow you to narrow down the prophecy targets a lot more, i.e. only rolling exalted prophecies for a specific base type

#

or at least a selection of a few base types that you'd be able to choose, for example by fusing a number of said base items with the lens

umbral saffron
#

Hmmmm, my smooth brain doesnt really understand what do you mean...

#

but I guess most of the lenses are kinda bad? I use Rhyme and Wealth lense and block Campaign, but maybe I could change that one...

livid spruce
#

The reason they are in a weird spot right now is you essentially have 1 lens slot, since 2 slots are taken up by "mandatory" lenses

gilded lark
umbral saffron
idle galleon
# gilded lark the three good lens are the two that increase rewards and cost per prophecy and ...

arena is not that bad, i can complete t4 arena in about 8-10 minutes, and the objective is always kill the arena champion, either any of them or named ones, so you can stack a bunch of them and do them all at the same time. i tend to avoid the named ones with many uses, preferring the low use named ones and generic champion ones. this way i can still use the item type lens to try to focus my rewards better (this is the most efficient according to frozen's sheet).

serene shuttle
#

Hi! I am new to COF. need help do we have like a guide as to where to complete the prophecy? Example death of void horror where to kill it? or deaht of immortal eye? where is the monolith or timeline to complete it? Thank you

umbral saffron
serene shuttle
#

Perfect! Thank you!

#

I see that it is in monolith. Does that mean any mono or area I can complete this? @umbral saffron

umbral saffron
quartz mauve
#

im on a late start playing a warlock, going to do the torment build I think. Do you think I can self find everything I need easily enough with CoF or should I be heading for trade? Not sure how active trade is late in the cycle like this

umbral saffron
#

6 weeks until new cycle, Id just stick to CoF and have fun tbh

wraith hazel
#

You'll more likely find the CoF fanboys here 😄 But from what I read some people indeed say that the market is currently a bit...thin

In the end it is a question of how much you like to play. I usually need around 2 weeks to get my CoF to rank 12 - and then it is just a big loot party 🙂

#

But I'm a tryhard with a lot playtime. Can imagine that you will finish a char in neither faction, if you don't put in enough playtime. So hard to say, if you will achieve your goals.
But as Olvrin said, CoF is fun, go with CoF 😄

umbral saffron
#

Idk what gear you need for torment warlock, but surely 6 weeks is enough time to find a decent gear for nice corruption before cycle 2 😄

quartz mauve
#

ill give CoF a go, it seems more fun, hopefully I can target farm the uniques I need

idle galleon
#

that's exactly what it's built for, so you can get what you need, many many times for slams... that usually miss. 😄

runic dirge
# quartz mauve ill give CoF a go, it seems more fun, hopefully I can target farm the uniques I ...

started about 4/5 days ago, also torment warlock, managed to find myself a barbute + marina's wand fairly easily, in fact I've found about 3 of each now, there are some specific maps you can farm to improve your chances, some build stuff drops from bosses with decent drop rate too, CoF has been kind to me, focusing on just learning the game and trying out some builds/getting to grips with mechanics, plenty of time to become proficient before new cycle 😎

lofty nebula
#

Cof has been friendly to me as a new player the game already is generous in terms of loot but cof lets you swim in what you need

serene shuttle
#

Is there a way we can target farm this? Alfrig Wolfmaw I want to get the omen of thunder belt 🙂

livid spruce
serene shuttle
serene shuttle
#

If i pick prophecies for unique relic can I get a stormcarved from there or it is solely a boss drop?

livid spruce
serene shuttle
#

Thanks! 🙂

livid spruce
charred quarry
#

guys i need some suggestions on how to proceed from now.
My idea starting this game was to try playing multiple masteries so i've selected 3-4 builds for almost all masteries , i've excluded only three.
I've have prepared a combined loot filter with all the useful T6+ exalt affixes but i'm still getting too much stuff that just ends up taking dust and i'm at 75 stash tabs, even with greed blessing it's becoming prohibitive to buy further tabs. I've noticed that i play 10 hours and then i have to spend 3h trying to evaluate what is usable and not. I've also realized that a lot of stuff to be crafted decently needs to have 40+ forge potential, the rest is LP1-2 slam material.
So stash management process is becoming frustrating and feels like time consuming chore.
From one side i'm terrified of losing very good equipment that could be build enabling, to use in case a build i'm playing is stagnating. But from the other side i feel i'm wasting too much time on stash maintenance.
What you do to normally do to maximize play time? do you prepare a filter only for the build you are playing and maybe keep Lp2+ uniques?

idle galleon
charred quarry
idle galleon
wraith hazel
# charred quarry guys i need some suggestions on how to proceed from now. My idea starting this g...

One filter to rule them all, for me it is 🙂 But I also started to play only one class at a time, to make it easier to organize stashing.

I have at least one, usually 2-3, rules per slot. While an affix may be welcome in one slot, it may be not as interesting in another one, that is why I personally like to have rules on per slot basis.
Try to find out, if there is things that you stash too often, that you rarely use anyway.

In the end, 75 tabs aren't too much if you had a long season. My personal record is somewhere around 150 🙂

wraith hazel
charred quarry
# wraith hazel One filter to rule them all, for me it is 🙂 But I also started to play only one...

well they are 75 but i started to play since the start of December 🤣 .
my current filter is also one per slot (with x5 rules for helm, body and relic) but i also have lots of rules taken because i have 27 rules for idols, one for each type of class idols + 2 for the 1x1, 2x1,1x2 idols.

wish there was a way to specify smart rules where you require 3 affix matches, but will consider a open slot as match, and also specify which affixes between the three should have >=T6. Or even subordinate rules

#

I had another idea that perhaps could be compromise. Could make sense for the generic filter putting only "Rare" and "very rare" affixes (specified bu lastepochtools) for each slot? Ignore all the rest since for each build can be easily matched with a specific filter by playing?

idle galleon
#

27 idol rules is pretty crazy. i have only 1 with all the critical affixes turned on for all my builds and 1 rule for double health stout idols, and even with that i don't have to look at too many idols that drop.

wraith hazel
#

What is the difference between "Bow" and "Ranged Weapon" prophecies?

charred quarry
umbral saffron
livid spruce
serene shuttle
#

Hi what is this death of diamond matron? and death of seige golem?

charred quarry
# serene shuttle Hi what is this death of diamond matron? and death of seige golem?

they are rare mobs. You will find them eventually in monoliths, sometimes even in patrolling objectives
Diamond Matrons: big snake ladies that call a beam of light from the sky that follows you.
Siege Golems: big animated armors that attack you from offscreen, when you have a big orange circle under you dodge and search for them (they are not spires)

serene shuttle
lament shale
serene shuttle
#

Thank you!

charred quarry
#

holy pistachio, the patch can't come soom enough.
Every time I enter in COF observatory I want to burn it all down

#

every time i aim for something it keeps coming out as overpriced guaranteed LP1

#

or i need armor pieces and always one slot is occupied by accessory

twin wolf
#

yea wtb 4th hell 5th lens slot for proper player agency over what we farm

stable hamlet
#

People will never be happy with the amount of agency they have

charred quarry
urban turtle
#

Those might be useful soon gregory

dusk sleet
#

been a while since i played, found it really hard to chase idols i needed, have there been any changes to that specifically?

twin wolf
#

idols are still a pain, arbor mirror printer is the way I guess, minmax dem runs per hr then pray u get it before ure out of gold

#

getting that new set thing going but with idols is the middle ground I guess :p

charred quarry
# dusk sleet been a while since i played, found it really hard to chase idols i needed, have ...

Idol blessing could be of help.
i so hope they rework the pool with more useful affixes, or cut a lot of stuff. I have made a research on affixes usable on a build and 50% of them could be trashed without looking back. If we also add the fact that a lot of good affixes have a gigantic roll interval, and sometimes you need the right affix combo and you better be ready to to play on a build that can work without idols, while you hope to get the right idols, Fortunately for a lot of them they are just nice to have.
At least it's doable to have decent 1x1, 2x1,1x2 res idols in reasonable times, but the bigger ones need a BRUTAL trimming.
Also a filter with roll ranges for idols at least could be an IMMENSE QoL

idle galleon
#

Idol prophecies are pretty good and fairly cheap for the quantity you get. Just need to spam them to spawn hundreds of idols to find the ones you want through brute force.

outer nacelle
#

have the devs addressed beacon farming at all? did a quick search, couldn't find anything

twin wolf
#

shhh density gonna go up with this patch so will the favor :D I just hope my little egg-farming thing doesn't get patched out

outer nacelle
#

i dont think they will do anything about beacon, pretty niche and probably used by 0.1% of the player base

#

what's your egg thing?

frosty pelican
#

Honestly just replace the beacon with some boss fight guarding the beacon that you must kill

twin wolf
#

same as beacon I guess :D pick a short map, see if theres nemesis, if yes pop it and walk out, rinse and repeat

frosty pelican
#

beacon is annoying

#

I think lakeside trail was decent? I forget but I think Nemesis uses the same spawn points as mage

outer nacelle
#

yeah i had a few maps that were better than others for hunting nems, can't remember which ones though coz it was so long ago

frosty pelican
#

I think Solarum was decent, but they removed it iirc?

outer nacelle
#

yeah that one

#

rip

twin wolf
#

we'll see I guess, those 40s runs were smooth and compelling :D

frosty pelican
#

I enjoyed Willow marsh, I think it was?

#

very linear

#

you see the wholemap in a run

outer nacelle
#

willow marsh is good overall

#

you can even beacon on there with more nem spots

frosty pelican
#

I wonder if you can reset farm Weaver content in the same way

#

surely not

#

yeah I did some beacon willow, got a lot more mages and nem it seemed

#

tired of waiting forever for proph to proc

twin wolf
#

we need to move it into DMs D: Mox wokeged we're gonna get caught

frosty pelican
#

I think they all know the beacon shenanigans

outer nacelle
#

if they were even to address it, surely they would compensate. like what they are doing with volatile reversal. it hasn't reached that scale yet though, so probably goes under the radar

twin wolf
#

aye as a fellow redditor I plead ye EHG not to nerf the fun out of the game, amen

outer nacelle
#

do you enjoy doing it though, or do you enjoy the results from doing it? i would much rather play normally if the favor gain was marginally worse, like 90%

twin wolf
#

eh kinda hard to say, both at first then more of a latter than former by the end of it I guess, I can stomach a week or two of grind, then I need a break

#

after that last rank is done its just an endless hamster wheel, getting marginal upgrades beyond 3LP'd leggies doesn't hit that significant satisfaction threshold, unless you luck into 4LP ofc

frosty pelican
#

an "optimal" strat will always emerge but I think if it's that obviously unintended it probably shouldn't be in the game

#

it has trade offs though

#

But also, it's so absurdly strong and not even close to the next best option, it also ruins the integrity of any sort of racing;
https://www.youtube.com/live/sF4cfEr0mAY
^ I made this HC SSF character with basically no previous HC experience, found the beacon on a good map and ended up doing the entire 99 to 100 grind in ~2 hours. Literally multiple times faster than any other run.

On league start this would have been #1 HC ladder by far just because of the stupid beacon, but it's really RNG heavy because you might not see beacon on a good map in days

outer nacelle
#

the minigame of finding a beacon. then spending days playing said minigame. then accidentally completing the beacon after 30 mins. then the minigame of trying to find the reset node.

frosty pelican
#

I still remember when Curse accidentally completed my beacon when we partied up lmao

#

gotta keep those reset web nodes handy in case of incidents

urban turtle
twin wolf
fringe saddle
#

Lets be honest, i don't think EHG doesn't know of the beacon farming method. Heck, when I search it in YT for some "last epoch favor farming"

#

top recommended is someone we know so well here

#

🥶 Sentinel_Base

urban turtle
gleaming mirage
frosty pelican
frosty pelican
fringe saddle
#

And I thank you for that.

You even updated your spreadsheet with probability tp get the target affixes with Rune of Redemption too. Gregory

urban turtle
#

Would it help to have that pinned in this channel? I have it bookmarked in chrome to share when I notice someone asking, though I'm not always online

fringe saddle
#

OH? I'm surprise you don't know about that yet Ave.

i'm not FrozenSentinel but i think that would help recognize his channel more.

urban turtle
#

I do know about it! I use it all the time haha, I'm just asking - considering how useful FS's G-sheet is to CoF players - would it be useful to pin it? Though I'll wait for them to reply!

I can copy/paste the other list of useful sites and add it on before pinning. Then go ask in the MG channel if they have anything similar they'd like pinned 😊

fringe saddle
#

for MG peeps they want a price check spreadsheet or something xD

livid spruce
urban turtle
frosty pelican
rain lion
#

But tbh, once I had warcamp set up, i didn’t mind the farm (except for the risk of bricking it)
The biggest problem was I “couldn’t” move to higher corruption as my char got stronger.
Even if I could go from 400 to 600 corruption due to char strength, the time it would take me to set it up again I would loose so much favor it would take soooo much time of farming on the new corruption to just break even

#

I desperately want to play the game and push chars to the limit, but this game loop is killing all motivation.

frosty pelican
frosty pelican
exotic grail
#

cof fellers i need help, when i go to prophecies my only rare amulet prophecies are for bone amulets only

rain lion
wraith hazel
rain lion
wraith hazel
#

Most/all rare prophecies do so I thought

rain lion
#

Ok, my bad. I never buy rare prophecy’s. Only unique and exalted

tidal isle
frosty pelican
frosty pelican
granite light
#

Were there any notable cof changes next season? It’s still the obvious choice for ssf I feel

winter shadow
#

you dont say 😂

livid spruce
winter shadow
#

the new runes alone are already huge buff for COF i'd say

#

well it's a big buff for everyone but you get better access to rare runes in COF than MG

#

so

livid spruce
#

True statement. I believe they've mentioned that they are changing something about lenses and possibly also the process of getting prophs, but what idk

winter shadow
#

i highly believe that with how strong the new runes are, even MG players would need an COF alt to farm for them

#

no matter how rare they are, it will affect the meta

#

if they are not rare -> actual drops will become less and less relevant

#

if they are very rare -> COF alt is neccessary

livid spruce
#

I think "necessary" would only happen if somehow CF got some insaneo bonuses to the new runes. It all depends on much faster you can grind the runes, it could easily be more efficient to still grind them on your main, since you'll be losing out on being able to sell anything you find while farming on CF.

winter shadow
#

yeah it depends entirely on how rare they are

#

example if they are as rare as creation, COF alt would def be the play

#

since i'm very sure the demand for new runes would be much higher tha creation

#

but we already got a confirm thay they're not as rare as creation

rustic grotto
#

Ever since Lizards, rune acquisition has been a total non issue. Even creation. But maybe that is just me.

They did say that lizard quantity will go down, but quality up. Guess we will see if rune prophecies will make sense again.

winter shadow
#

hmm i kinda stopped playing since the addition of lizard so can't say much about that

frosty pelican
winter shadow
frosty pelican
#

Also considering the rune can eat 20 fp, and its rare, and the outcome is still RNG, you could get completely screwed and need 20+ of them to make 1 item, or you could finish on the first

winter shadow
#

key meta is kinda whatever - since once you reach high enough corruption, the raw gold drop alone outscale the gold you get from key anw

frosty pelican
#

The FP thing kinda kills me on such a rare rune that already has RNG bassd results

winter shadow
frosty pelican
#

Imagine how annoyed you would be if Rune of Creation had a 50% chance of success

winter shadow
#

tho the part about actual drop not matter might not be true - since you'd still need a good base or you'll simply wont have enough FP to just roll everything

rustic grotto
#

CoF has prophecies that gives a large quantity of loot. You can get what you want by "brute forcing", you keep doing prophecies untill you get it.
Everything you find that you don't want has no value or use.

MG on the other hand, you have no control over what you find, but everything can be sold to progress towards what you do want.
Once you have enough gold, you just search, click, done.

Maybe over simplified, but I think CoF will use the new runes way more than MG, Because there is a large pool of otherwise useless items it can be used on.

frosty pelican
# rustic grotto CoF has prophecies that gives a large quantity of loot. You can get what you wan...

Yes, with MG any item you find can potentially be useful for anyone, CoF gets many times more loot but only really cares about items they can use.

The difference is that the more specific the thing you want is, the less likely you are to just brute force it.

Whereas with MG someone has probably found this thing. Basically the CoF loot multiplier for some items is far less than the player multiplier for MG

Eg. you want eternal gauntlets with some specific T7 affix

rustic grotto
#

Yep, realistic goals or you will burn out with CoF

frosty pelican
#

yea I am more saying that what is realistic just feels like a balance issue for certain things more than anything.

rustic grotto
#

Outside of a mechanic that just straight up allows you to say, take this specific item, make it more likely to drop, or make exalted items more likely to have these exact affixes, I don't think we can get away from brute forcing.

#

(Small bit of hope that is exactly what those weaver tree boxes are for)

winter shadow
#

and we shouldn't

frosty pelican
#

To some degree yea, that's what CoF is, but like the exalted item example, if you just want slam bases for Legendaries you don't need to care about "1 / chance to find affix * 1 / chance for good base * 1 / chance to not run out of FP while finishing item" etc

rustic grotto
#

We should, because the more affixes/unqiues they introduce, the harder brute force becomes.

frosty pelican
#

Getting good exalts for CoF is really hard relative to good legendaries

#

because of favor costs of exalts

rustic grotto
#

yeah, les than 500k favor to get 4lp relic, over 2M to get the exalt for it.

My rule of thump, however much it cost you to get the unique, at least double it for the exalt.

frosty pelican
rustic grotto
#

Getting a good exalted scepter for spell. holy, I still don't have it.

#

Let alone a scorn sceptre with t7 spell crit

#

That is just not possible

frosty pelican
#

I have a couple T7 int eternal gauntlets that are all pretty bad

#

and gloves donteven have that many affixes in the pool

#

like the class specific items

#

with all your rare class affixes

#

to be fair for some slots certain bases are just way too dominant

#

and you still find a lot of bad ones in end game

rustic grotto
#

Yep

#

If your build can use low level uniques, then CoF is great. If you need very specific exalted items, oof.

frosty pelican
#

Havoc helps with this, like you can force a T7 experimental on an eternal base now, but then the rune is rare and you eat your FP one time, then you reroll 6 times and miss the next, eating 6 rare runes with no progress

rustic grotto
#

Yeah, I mostly think of triple exalts from nemesis on that one. They usually have high FP and are near maxed on affixes anyway. Might luck into something.

frosty pelican
#

It's true, but they aren't brute forceable

#

CoF gets as many of these as MG

rustic grotto
#

Yeah, I still don't understand how nemesis went live without a CoF rank

#

I just hope champions don't repeat the nemesis issue

frosty pelican
#

The biggest concern with CoF is that each new source of items needs to be scaled in some way by CoF, otherwise the advantage just becomes dilute

#

(I mean the loot advantage necessary to compete with MG trade at all)

rustic grotto
#

I think they should remove the mage rank, and instead make sure every "league" appears on woven echo's. Then just buff woven echo drop rate with a CoF rank.

peak pulsar
#

"Exiled Mages drop twice as many experimental items" should just be "Exiled Mages, Nemesis Monsters, and Champions drop twice as many items" -- just add any new "infrequent" loot sources introduced later to that same rank

frosty pelican
#

yea thats basically it, you can't really have a rank for each system

#

doesn't scale well

#

unless you give CoF a skill tree type thing like weaver

#

so you can choose which system to giga boost

#

based on what you want

rustic grotto
#

Hence my woven echo idea

#

chose what you want that way

#

doesnt require hundred lines to cover every mechanic either

peak pulsar
#

and having some way to target specific exalts or affix drops would help a lot, like CoF loot blessings

#

"100% increased chance for exalted gloves to be Eternal Gauntlets"

frosty pelican
#

I think they said some change to prophecies? but yeah I agree

#

if the solution is to just "add more prophecies" without changing anything else you just end up spending all your time and favor clicking reroll

#

needs a better solution

rustic grotto
#

When you spend 15m rolling prohecies only to clear it in 15min with envy boss kills. ZZzzz

frosty pelican
#

I don't even select boss kills unless it's a boss I would kill anyway

#

There was one timeline that has the most prophecies activatable in normal echos

rustic grotto
#

I do it to force some variation xD

frosty pelican
#

I think it was Reign of Dragons

livid spruce
gilded lark
gilded lark
frosty pelican
hazy elm
#

time to watch 6 hours of frozen COF vids

#

🪦

gilded lark
frosty pelican
#

I'll probably have a lot of these runes and a lot of exakts to use them on, but more normal players won't

gilded lark
frosty pelican
#

Sure but they appear to be reconsidering for the eternal cache

#

So it seems they kind of have at least some sort of change of opinion