feedback-discussion

[hexed whale]

More of this please

[half stag]

shooting range, mentor system, proper tutorial, better server performance

[keen bolt]

Mentor system?

[hexed whale]

Dont even mention the servers to me bruh. Im gonna REEEEE

[keen bolt]

And also Ping abuse

[half stag]

like if vets want, they can sign up to be a "mentor" where in that if a newb wishes, they can request for a vet to queue up with and play with them

[keen bolt]

Oh make it like Sherpa program in tarky

[hexed whale]

But that takes away from my fiverr coach money 😂

[keen bolt]

XDDD

[half stag]

lmao

[keen bolt]

Well Tarkov still have Fiverr coaches 😂

[hexed whale]

Saw that general sam vid? Shit was gold

[keen bolt]

XP

I should go watch it 🤠

[hexed whale]

He used to play hunt too. His white shirt genocide video had me rolling. But then tarkov swept him away. Damn shame

[half stag]

he hops on occasionally

normally when tarkov is late wipe

think one of his videos he was like "hunt is the game that I have the most consistent fun with" "tarkov is like a bell curve, at the start of a wipe its good, and towards the end it hits rock bottom"

[hexed whale]

Wish he was higher elo so I could smack him around a bit lmao. Probably a 3 star. 🐀

I enjoyed the back and forth. Some good points made here. Im gonna pass out now tired af, yall have a good night and happy hunting!

[keen bolt]

Yup night guys

[half stag]

👍

[feral crag]

Any ETA. At ALL. On skill-based matchmaking for Quickplay? It's the only mode that actually needs it and it's the only one that doesn't have it.

[plush ledge]

no way that QP gets it as long as there are barely enough players to fill a lobby

[sick anvil]

The only ETA ever given from Crytek is. Vague at best . plus QP would need not MMR and Skill based MM but not affect BH MMR at all just be a Free for all with no ratings

QP is so RNG that it does not matter

[dense fjord]

[dense fjord]

(Me finding an uppercut and crown in first compound) whatever do you mean

[sick anvil]

I have my doubts that you found an CK5 in a compound

as far i know only shows up on carts

[late wind]

Any weapon can show up anywhere in my experience. It's just the likelihood at carts is higher for stronger weapons.

I'll believe he found a clown & cringe because I've found a nitro in a compound.

[dense fjord]

First wagon right outside of first compound lol

Won a spawn fight at Goddard picked it up right outside, killed a camper at golden and won the game at salters with it.

[opaque reef]

@keen bolt people hated the dolch for the whole package. high damage with a near instant follow up, plus 8 more after that. get caught more than three steps from cover and you get two tapped before you can even turn around. get aimpunched and you're dead before you get a second shot. plus it's a one slot weapon, so you know it isn't even their MAIN weapon. I would be fine with a price reduction, but if i was going to fix the dolch i would keep it's damage where it is, but give it a crazy HS multiplier, like 7-8x so people can't just spam someone down from range, but can make skilled headshots, while having a good gun for close range.

[keen bolt]

Nitro dolch ftw tho

Or the classic Vetterli dolch (well it doesn't stack ammo nowadays)

[opaque reef]

if the dolch only had 2 shots i would maybe be ok with it, but like i said, 8 more to come after you miss the first one or two. yeah the sway does nerf it a bit, but a player with lots of practice will just fight the sway and two tap you like they always used to. right now people don't take the dolch because it's no longer a reliable 2 tap.

[keen bolt]

And that's why I want the thing back (wink wink) @opaque reef XD

In all seriousness they can keep the stats but the price should not be that high

It make sense to have a powerful gun be ... powerful

[half stag]

@warm zephyr used to be like that pre dual wielding, but reserves got nerfed across the board cause crytek "did not want dualies to have so much ammo" (It's not like they can change the multiplier to be 1.5 instead of the 2 times its at rn)

[warm zephyr]

yep i know

but i think at some point medium ammo needs to be more plentiful

duals well… at some point you have to realise that you ARE using 2 slots and are sacrificing the ability to ads so it’s just fine ig

i just don’t agree with people crying about random headshots by dualies. it is an unreasonable whine because there is more of a chance to not headshot.

crytek dug themselves into a hole by implementing the current duals system which is similar to arcade games

it should be alternating between the 2 to have a sizeable increase in fire rate in exchange of worse sway instead

[half stag]

yea . . . and manage to piss off both sides of the community

[warm zephyr]

the current ability to double tap should be locked behind ambi tbh

[half stag]

agreed, cuz in its current form, dualies is just a noob addition for them to use up to mid range to compensate for their lack of game knowledge against vets and are an rng cannon, which is not great

[warm zephyr]

duals should’ve been quickswap in 2 slots

[dense fjord]

Remove dual wield simple fix

[keen bolt]

Or vets who basically use dual and rekt everyone

[warm zephyr]

for the simple minded, yeah its the only fix

[half stag]

yep

don't know why they thought this was a great way to implement dual wielding oh wait

[keen bolt]

Okay then let me draft an idea here and you guys tell me if this is a good rework or no

[half stag]

it'd also fix the fmj spam that's so prevelant in certain pairs cough conversion

[warm zephyr]

i get the charm. but they went the EASY way

[half stag]

tin foil theory is also cuz they wanted to get more new players hooked and they thought that adding an easy to use option was the way to go

its not

[warm zephyr]

they didn’t think it through

[half stag]

I mean, if you go back and read the 1.4.1 patch notes, it sure sounds like they intend dual wielding to be designed for noobs

[dense fjord]

I don’t see any reasonable way to balance dual wielding in this game

[half stag]

fr

[warm zephyr]

we just suggested

you just can’t read

[dense fjord]

I think it should get throwing in trash

Along with your horrible idea

[half stag]

anything constructive besides just calling it "horrible"

[warm zephyr]

ignore the trolls

[dense fjord]

Not trolling

Doesn’t really fit what the game could be in my opinion

Which is better

[dim heron]

Let's not insult each other. If you can't have a discussion without insults then see yourself out of it or I'll see you out of it

[dense fjord]

Honestly your logic for why duals is fine is bad to begin with

[keen bolt]

Everyone chill for a bit

@dense fjord you always suggest good idea

[warm zephyr]

agree to disagree

[keen bolt]

So I know your balancing isn't entirely bad

@warm zephyr and you too

Also have good idea

[half stag]

he could at least say something constructive

[keen bolt]

So eh maybe think of a rework first before insulting eachother

[opaque reef]

im fine with a price reduction to like 250-300. make it competitive with the uppercut. that said, calling something that is broken or incredibly unfun to play against balanced just cause it's expensive is not a good way to balance a game.

[half stag]

bit rude just saying it's "horrible" and could extrapolate more why you think dual wielding doesn't fit

[warm zephyr]

literally discussing a possible rework and someone got upset

[dense fjord]

Think about how crytek has “balanced” dual wield recently

What did they do

[warm zephyr]

crytek isnt perfect

it’s a kneejerk reaction

[dense fjord]

The main issue people have with dual wielding is RNG right

[half stag]

which is a big problem with them

[warm zephyr]

EASY way out

[dense fjord]

Feels bad to get killed by stray bullet spam

[half stag]

and they don't get into the nitty gritty of why something is an issue until its too late or they just kill it in the crib and ignore it

[dense fjord]

Stay with me

[warm zephyr]

yeah lessen the rng and make people aim with duals

[dense fjord]

They made the issue even worse with the dual wield nerf

[dense fjord]

You are with me

[half stag]

yea, that's crytek being dumb

[half stag]

that was the whole point of our discussed rework

[dense fjord]

But I don’t see that happening

[half stag]

cuz they lazy af xd

[dense fjord]

Then people complain about accurate spam

But I think it would be infinitely better

Cause actual aim is required and rewarded

Lessen the RNG parameters to something much smaller

That’s my opinion on trying to balance dual wield

[half stag]

imo, it would be fine if it was a long delay between the two shots switching or Idk, make it so that switching between both pistols while adsing is slower than firing a single one

[half stag]

thank you for the input, better than being rude

[warm zephyr]

this is so much better than saying “remove duals simple fix”

[dense fjord]

I agree better than being rude to someone for no reason over a simple statement

[keen bolt]

Yup we're all on the same page here

Bottom line is that I wanna tag crytek dev on dual wield ads rework

[dense fjord]

Maybe somebody can say something even slightly jokingly but also serious given the current state of things 🙂

[keen bolt]

But that's impossible

[warm zephyr]

make duals a quickswap. solves people complaining about random headshots,spam, and people that complains about quickswapping.

so many birds with one stone

[half stag]

also it'd look cooler cuz we know how much crytek cares about aesthetics, better than the dumb pose hunters strike when using dualies ingame

[warm zephyr]

idt they’d want to put in the work tbh

[dense fjord]

Idk who is in charge of balancing the weapons rn but they need to take a good once over on everything again

[half stag]

Oh I TiGhTen My PiStoLs ToGeThEr aNd NoW I Am MoRe AcCurAte ThAn A SiNglE PisTol

[warm zephyr]

yeah ikr. there’s just no “ready” stance for dw because you don’t aim

[dense fjord]

Probably scared to mess something up

[half stag]

come to think of it, the only "rework" they've ever done was with the avto (and even then all they did was change the burst, and not the core mechanics of something)

[dense fjord]

I hate avto lol

Feel like it doesn’t fit in the game at all

[keen bolt]

It's ww1 weapon even

Doesn't fit the time or anything

Just looks cool I guess

[warm zephyr]

avto should have worse mv and damage and pen

[dense fjord]

I have experience fighting avto boss lair campers

[warm zephyr]

like 90 dmg 400mv and medium pen

[dense fjord]

Sitting still for sound advantage and spraying for wall bangs when you approach

Not very fun to go against lol

[warm zephyr]

err

6 star avtos

oppressive is the only word

too much pen

spray down the boss lair and we’re dead

[dense fjord]

Forreal though I’d be happy to see avto and dual wield just gone

[half stag]

could even cite lore reason as "the gas system being too weak to handle rifle calibers" or something, and be more in line with their ethos of "end of wild west, and beginning of ww1 tech"

[dense fjord]

Not to say dual wield couldn’t be executed better than it is now

[warm zephyr]

i understand your rationale. you want it to stay as a game that rewards aim

[dense fjord]

Yes I think it’s more fun that way

[opaque reef]

the problem with rng is that it isn't fun to play against.

[warm zephyr]

but i think if those weapons are reworked, it can be fun for everyone

[half stag]

^

plus aesthetically, I think everyone can agree that it 100% fits

[dense fjord]

With or against. Especially as a player that can hit shots it’s unrewarding to use and feels horrible to die to.

[warm zephyr]

the chambers aren’t sealed enough so less energy behind the shots

[dense fjord]

Dual wield nerf made that problem even worse

Even worse to use and die against lol

[half stag]

Crytek's bad habits lmao

[warm zephyr]

yeah

spaghetti way of thinking

[half stag]

"oH We ThInK ThE PrObLem WiTh DuAl WiEldIng Is AmBuSh ScENAriOs, AnD oNly AmBush SceNaRios"

[dense fjord]

I believe it. I love levering on Winfield and fanning on a few guns.

[half stag]

I swear, when I heard that, I physically cringed

[dense fjord]

I didn’t know they came out with that

[warm zephyr]

winnie levering FMJ is super balanced imo. it is very effective at its niche

[half stag]

and then they also went ahead and slapped the same nerf on levering and fanning when they were in a fine state (killing variety in those categories)

[dense fjord]

That’s hilarious

Crouch nerf for levering and fanning doesn’t even bother me

[warm zephyr]

only gripe i have about winnie fmj is the time it takes to unlock it

[dense fjord]

I don’t crouch when doing either lol

[warm zephyr]

i do though. especially with uppercut fanning

[dense fjord]

For sure unlock stuff needs to be looked at again.

[half stag]

lemme go back to the dev stream and time stamp when they said what they thought dual wielding was being labeled as "too good" for

[warm zephyr]

it’s alright i think. we believe you

lmao like centy marksman is “too good”

[half stag]

[warm zephyr]

debateable actually

[dense fjord]

You tap fire mostly I’m guessing?

[half stag]

I heard that and the fact they even went "oh, but you may ask, why no deadeye or marksman? well . . ."

[warm zephyr]

personally, i just love the looks of the centy marksman.

[dense fjord]

When using uppercut fanning

[warm zephyr]

yeah

[warm zephyr]

especially since i was noob baited into winnie c marksman when i first played

[dense fjord]

Now we have Vetterli marksman HV

[warm zephyr]

vetterli shouldn’t have marksman imo

unless it’s with the longer variant

vetterli KARABINER have no business being a marksman variant

[opaque reef]

special ammo was a mistake

in it's entirety

the game was way better before special, and nothing will change my mind. better before dualies too

[dense fjord]

I like special ammo but I also think the weapons and ammo types all need a total rebalance once over lol

[half stag]

agreed, its certain combinations and mechanics that make some ammo types so oppressive

ahem fmj dualies

[opaque reef]

every shotgun shouldn't have slugs.

only the slow firing ones like romero or specter.

[half stag]

whoever was the guy that decided every shotgun should get slugs needs to be strung up

[plush ledge]

Hunt is pretty buggy and broken in many ways but the weapon balancing beside some extra range for medium ammo is good

[half stag]

it was fine when they were careful about which guns got which ammo types

[opaque reef]

i honestly can't believe slate/slugs got past testing.

[half stag]

now its just throw everything at the wall, and see if it sticks

[warm zephyr]

Special ammo is great imo. Different playstyles are always fun

[half stag]

(or just listen to the redditors for balancing decisions but we don't talk about that)

[opaque reef]

it's great in theory.

[plush ledge]

You mean why it didn't get the new army treatment? From ok gun to hot garbage after nerf?

[warm zephyr]

I do agree that ck don't deserve slugs

[opaque reef]

in practice its pretty shit

[opaque reef]

the gun was fine, they just needed to take slugs off it

give it flechette

[warm zephyr]

Hear hear

[half stag]

I personally say it serves its role, just need to reign in what guns get certain ammo types and rework mechanics that downplay the downsides of an ammo type

[plush ledge]

With that rof people would cry even about flechette

[half stag]

people cry about anything

[warm zephyr]

Make flechette good and remove slugs from most shotguns

[dense fjord]

Probably lol

[half stag]

they cried about the new army for it to get nerfed

it got nerfed

and now they want its velocity back XD

[plush ledge]

Problem with test is that those 30 dudes who play it cry op about anything and crytek nerfs it to the ground therefore im happy about any gun that don't get destroyed after test players crying

Remember when bow was op? Beside some memers nobody plays it anymore

[half stag]

doesn't help that youtubers all had an echo chamber of the same thing, even though no one was on test playing nor is it in a live environment where people will play normally

[plush ledge]

When you listen to test players or reddit you're doomed

[half stag]

I swear, crytek sometimes just needs to tell the community to stuff it and ignore them

[plush ledge]

I wish they would

I mean I get that you balance for low elo because most players are in 3 or 4 stars but this leads to things like bow or new army are useless in high. But I don't get who in his right mind thought the new army pre nerf would be op? Beside the fact of course that anything is op at release, then it gets nerfed and then nobody plays it anymore

[warm zephyr]

New army just needs the sway

[half stag]

The new army is such an extreme case of the "anything is op at release" - fucking Rachta Z and all the "sweat" hunt tubers were claiming that it would kill the officer and that an fmj double action would be the end times (least it certaintly felt like it)

[warm zephyr]

Velocity was fine

[half stag]

yep, and yet crytek went above and beyond, and slapped dolch level ads spam sway onto everything including the bornheim for some reason

[plush ledge]

And now it's almost an achievement when you get a kill with it past 20m

[warm zephyr]

Officer and new army are built to be different. Both are perfect for level 1 hunters. New army could be the traitless fmj gun you can use for accurate repeating wall banging ; and the officer for head tapping at range

[half stag]

the thing that ticks me off so bad, is those exact same people are now saying it should get buffs (the exact same stats that were fine on test )

[warm zephyr]

Listening to the community is a tricky thing.

I've learned that from the insurgency community

Too many voices, too much echoing

[half stag]

also slate slightly got affected by the "anything is op at release" syndrome, at least in terms of buckshot ammo (why'd they reduce the reserve ammo, when slugs were, and still are, the main issue?)

[warm zephyr]

I'm of the opinion that terminus should be more accurate but slower compared to the slate

[half stag]

well yea, its in such a weird spot rn

without levering, it just is an awful shotgun

[warm zephyr]

I think flechette should be reworked in a way that encourages aiming down sights

[half stag]

levering, it becomes viable, but its like "why would I bring a terminus, when I can bring a slate that doesn't need traits to be functional?"

[warm zephyr]

Because their rationale at the moment is that no one uses iron devastator

I think

[half stag]

well then, they could've added that colt lightning everyone's been clamoring for

[dense fjord]

Levering on terminus upsets me

[opaque reef]

honestly nerfs shouldn't happen on the test server. it should only exist to ensure functionality.

[half stag]

but that would be too much brain power for Crytek so, let's add the slate instead lol

[dense fjord]

Makes you so immobile

[opaque reef]

theres not enough people playing test to accurately determine if something is balanced. you need real data.

[half stag]

don't get me wrong, I'm happy the slate's ingame, but it wasn't the right moment to add it imo

[dense fjord]

Like if you need to move fast and lever which becomes your only hip fire option you are f’d lol

[warm zephyr]

Please.

[opaque reef]

i wanted it really badly, but then it became all slugs all the time cause it's buckshot is kinda ass

[half stag]

and the buckshot got nerfed cuz Crytek couldn't even spend 5 seconds into seeing what everyone was so upset about

[opaque reef]

like it feels like it can kill at 12 meters, but its REALLY unreliable.

[half stag]

plus, listening to the crybabies who thought it would kill every other shotgun in the game (the same people who forget c&k exists)

[dense fjord]

Slate getting price reduced was pretty weird

[half stag]

it got dropped back down to its test server price

its fine

but slugs arent

they should've gotten a price increase on that ammo type specifically

or hell replace it with something else

[dense fjord]

Slugs could cost more on some guns and would probably stay a very common pick still

[keen bolt]

Title: Dual wielding rework concept

•Interlude
In a game of skill dual wield has no place in many player opinion - it feels unfulfilling to kill people with and even worse when you dies to headshot. It's one thing to know you got killed by skilled shot and another when you know you got killed by random chances.

•Purposed rework

• Make dual wielding actually aim down sight
• reduced rate of fire to 50ish
• alternate between two pistol in the animation
• Sway should be like the quick swap sway when you switch between primary and secondary (ie have it apply when you rotate to the other pistol)
• Make hipfire very inaccurate just like real life. What double action dual hipfire was like make it the accuracy of Single action (dual gets even worse).

•The effects

• lose Rng spam ability (capped at 50ish rpm - and has to ADS)
• actually has to aim (and benefits player who actually ran 2 medium loadout)
• dual wield becomes ranged option instead
• no more short range dominance by duals (it is a shotgun job really)

•Overall - it should performs like quick swap 2 pistol loadout

What do you guys think

[little carbon]

I think a lot of the perceived problem with dual wield is that many people don't respect them enough when playing against them. Think about the following:
You peek into a dual wield at a medium range.
If their first shot kills you, it didn't matter that ist was a dual wield. They could have had the same result with a single pistol, if we assume a low skill player probably even with ADS since their point finding will be almost random.
In fact, you never know if you have been killed by hipfire as the game does not tell you.
Of course, if you stay in your peek, a dual wield will have more opportunities to hit then a single pistol in the same timeframe. But I think it's here people commonly misplay, a lot of people stay in their peek, because they believe "dual wield is gonna miss"

[half stag]

in general, slugs should get the same treatment as they attempted with the c&k, where it nerfs the gun and price only when you run the ammo type, so that buckshot doesnt get indirectly nerfed due to slug problems

[dense fjord]

Or Atleast some guns stats with slugs could get changed too

[keen bolt]

What do you guys think

[dense fjord]

I think the whole thing needs work it’s hard to talk about one part for me lol

[half stag]

actually now that I think about, the sway should be like the quick swap sway when you switch between primary and secondary (ie have it apply when you rotate to the other pistol)

[half stag]

yea . . . slugs will need to be almost a case by case balance thing if they insist on keeping it on every gun

[dense fjord]

I don’t really like sway personally

[keen bolt]

Edited it now

[dense fjord]

Atleast increased sway after shots on some guns feels really weird

Like they did for “high fire rate” stuff like officer and dolch

[half stag]

the increased sway after shots is weird as hell

[dense fjord]

Or it’s like the random sway

[half stag]

sway as a balance mechanic isn't (it actually helped in preventing long ammo from being crazy af as it is now)

[warm zephyr]

50 is too slow. That's winnie rpm

[dense fjord]

I don’t even know what they refer to it as rn

[keen bolt]

That's the point

[half stag]

I'll have to look back for specifically the higher rof stuff

[warm zephyr]

Unless you mean ads

[half stag]

but sway in general has a pattern to it, specific to each weapon

[dense fjord]

It’s like random recoil

[half stag]

quick swap also has a pattern

[warm zephyr]

Then i think it should be at least on par with spitfire

[dense fjord]

On some of the fast fire rate stuff

[keen bolt]

No really 50 is plenty when it comes to 12 shot

@half stag @dense fjord so what do you guys think on dual wield ideas

[dense fjord]

Either way isn’t a huge hang up for me

On the fire rate

But its a good starting point suggestion.

[keen bolt]

Should it be faster or slower

[half stag]

50 is fine for ads, maybe have it be 70ish for hipfire (but that's just me)

[keen bolt]

I think 50 is the good spot

[warm zephyr]

I think the current dual wielding fire rate can be locked behind ambi, upping it to 6 points

[half stag]

that's a good one (tho I dont really want it to be as high as it is rn)

[warm zephyr]

Yeah it's like fanning

Fire rate well... I think it really needs testing

For now nothing we can say is reflective of the results

[ruby magnet]

So I just checked in. And read up about the latest discussion on dualwield. And you all will be happy to know this discussion took 5 whole hours and counting

[dense fjord]

I’d have to take a look at some game mechanics again like the added sway on repeated shots and random recoil or whatever I think it is

[warm zephyr]

I love dual wielding because it's kind of the old west quirky things that can exist in this game

[dense fjord]

I get it I was very excited for dual wielding when it was fresh but as it’s currently balanced it feels very out of place for me.

[keen bolt]

Someone tag crytek so they know we discussed it like civilised gentlemen and not a reddit echo chamber

[warm zephyr]

@keen bolt i think the hipfire should be slightly better than the duals we have now. Considering you can't spam

[keen bolt]

Same ...

[keen bolt]

Maybe but it became ranged option instead

So it would likely be in shotgun/2 medium loaodut

Which should compensate

[ruby magnet]

And the concensus thus far is too high RoF and people calling it out as a mistake that has no place in the game.

I think it does have a place in the game, just not with FMJ (because I got beef with fmj on low caliber weapons if anyone wants to discuss that) and its current RoF.

[half stag]

okay, the 2nd part I think you are getting it a bit misinterpreted

[warm zephyr]

I think winfield fmj is balanced

[half stag]

dual wielding can fit, but not in its current state

[ruby magnet]

What realistically dualwielding did was simply having 2 guns that you could fore before having to reload. It did NOT increase fire rate of individual pistols.... which they currently do

[keen bolt]

Exactly that

And holding 2 gun should not be the reason you can't AIM

[ruby magnet]

True because the rate of fire is high enough to be good but not oppressive.

[half stag]

it goes against the entire design of hunt being, accurate shooting and good game sense, with your only deaths and misses being your aim or misplays, not due to rng

[ruby magnet]

The call out by stag Prince to take 2 pistols out on a range and fire like hunters do at 40 meters is something I think I'll comfortably hit 9 of the 12 shots.

[half stag]

fmj is fine, just not on the current iteration of dualies imo

[ruby magnet]

They can be accurate. Even when held side by side.

Just makes no sense that they fire that quickly

[warm zephyr]

What if the duals can spam fmj, but requires a 6 point trait?

[burnt mulch]

too specific

[warm zephyr]

If they used quartermaster as well, it tallies to 12 just to soam fmj

[keen bolt]

Nice

The dual idea got 3 downvotes already

Sigh

[half stag]

lmao, one's a mod xd

its a joke btw

[keen bolt]

Like

Man I hate the community sometimes

But eh

It is what it is

[half stag]

"Can lead a thirsty horse to water, but can't force it to drink from it"

[keen bolt]

What the!?

[half stag]

also saw you downvote, I do partially agree with your thinking, but imo, the big thing with dualies is just the fact that it's rng

at least with a single pistol

you know they had to line up their sights to that specific point to your head

[ruby magnet]

I remember VERY vividly of someone posting a clip here years ago side by side shooting a single CCP and dualwielded CCP.

You can test this yourself.
Load 3 rounds into a single CCP and empty the gum. Time how long that takes.
Now take dualwield CCP and load 6 rounds (3 in each gun). Now empty both pistols as fast you can. Now time how long it takes for the first pistol to empty all of its rounds.

[half stag]

with dualies, its 50/50 what's going to happen

[ruby magnet]

You'll magically see that dualwielding makes you cock the pistol faster compared to singlehandedly them.

And THAT is bullshit and why the RoF is so damn high

Go test it out. You empty your right handed pistol faster dualwielding it than when you single wield it.

[keen bolt]

Hunt right now: Oh you take buckshot shotgun? Too bad you got sniped by long ammo - now you're somehow not dead and close the gap!? Oh no get spammed by dualies - oh not dead still? GET FUCKED BY SLUG - Now he's dead

[warm zephyr]

Tldr, dw makes you cock the hammer before the the recoil resets

[keen bolt]

That's one a joke btw if you could not tell XD

Now that I think about it - I should just pick up dual fmj. Didn't play with it for a day already

I love pairing it with Vetterli for spamming in compounds

[ruby magnet]

That's a really odd way to apply balancing...

• you gut a special ammo type from a weapon system just because the ammo type is too powerful
• you reallow it through a perk. Why? Feels like a bandaid fix only accepting that FMJ would be OP
• you spend double points on the perk because you have quartermaster. What? Why?

[ruby magnet]

It makes you cock the hammer faster. Period. Has nothing to do with recoil resetting.

If anything dualwielding should make cocking the hammers on your dualwielded pistols slower because of the mental gymnastics you need to do firing those things smoothly and not pull the trigger on an uncocked gun

Keeping track of which pistol you just fired. You try airfiring (like playing air guitar) a set of dual pistols... see if you don't make mistakes with finger and thumb movement

[keen bolt]

This ^

I've dual wield a revolver before...well

A double action atleast

And still fire the wrong side

[ruby magnet]

Cheater

XD

[keen bolt]

Lol

I fired 2 shots off my dominant hand

And that's why I just stopped trying to do that for the cool points

[warm zephyr]

Im actually ambidextrous but don't live in America so i can't test it

Spamming dualies should be locked behind ambidextrous is my opinion

[sick anvil]

you do not need to be ambidextrous to dual wield revolves it just takes allot of training with your off hand

[warm zephyr]

That makes it so that you have to invest

[half stag]

I think they mean that to fully utilize fmj to the effectiveness it is at rn, you need to invest in ambi and quarter, totalling 12 trait points

[keen bolt]

Depending on country in Asia you could get guns 😉

[warm zephyr]

Not mine

Also, it is frowned upon by gun ranges no?

[half stag]

depends

[keen bolt]

Yup it is frowned upon by most gun ranges

[little carbon]

My first point was about how you can get the same random hipfire headshot effect on single pistols if you use them with hipfire. On their first shot in a peek both have the same chance to kill.
If you take consecutive shots then dual wield will get more attempts to hit, but again you shouldn't stay in a peek against dual wields, especially with a rifle.
Shoot, cycle your weapon in cover then repeek, ideally from a different angle.
Dual wields kinda work as a threat through potential weapon in higher medium range. Which punishes overextending and greedyness.
As a sidenote, we are talking about PC balance here, right?

When playing against dual wield you always need to take their variance in account and you should always play around the best possible rng for your opponent to play safe.
In lack of a better example, let's say you were doing a challenge run on an old pokemon game where you try to go deathless, you will always play around a potential critical hit of your opponent. The same mindset applies here

[keen bolt]

But if you're the regular usually they are ok with it (for a video or stuff)

[half stag]

hmmmm

[keen bolt]

Yes what you say here is also true - but it's RNG with lot less skill involved

That's the main problem

Next problem is that they are too dominant as what they do

[sick anvil]

i still think the only way to fix DW is completly rework it

[keen bolt]

They basically own medium range - now lack of pen might be ok so can fight around cover but fmj also nullify it

[sick anvil]

ADS would actually aim down sights on guns and and hip fire would be same % as some loot box legendary drop

[keen bolt]

I already suggested a rework

Which apparently pisses off even a moderator lol (no problem he's probably dual wield fmj too - jk I also do)

Exactly I use it so I know it's bad as in no skill

I tried everything before calling it op

I have no say for avto because I never tried it so no comment on said topic that's my principle

[half stag]

I agree with your points and yes, we are talking about PC. Your points even line up with what the devs intended for dual wielding, being a short-mid range option for suppression and ai clearing. As Vetterli Lover 71 has said however, they are too good at their job, eeking out any chance of fighting back if caught out (placed in uncomfortable terrain with no option to switch to a different angle) or even turning the tide for you even if the initiating team opens fire first, with a down, depending on terrain. The goal of a potential rework is to keep that ability, but not making it as RNG reliant or overbearing when adsing

[ruby magnet]

This... is basically how I imagine it being used at the time.
You dont fire faster, you just have 2 guns ready to use... instead of reloading halfway through.

[sick anvil]

Nah DW rework that was less limiting was suggest in the past year multiple times and Said mod was always first on the trigger to downvote .

[keen bolt]

I once spammed an Avto to death by literally shooting at sound - that poor fuck didn't even stand a chance

[half stag]

kinda sad ngl

[sullen zephyr]

@keen bolt why allways hate akimbos, akimbos like every other weapon class has its own strenght and weaknesses its like a mosin spammer would blame a shotgun spammer just because it counters the mosin in close engagment same for the other site, imo the weapons are as balanced as never before yet

[lunar kettle]

Just saying: That's the strenght of the weapon. Thats what you use it for. You can do even better with it, but that needs a lot of practise.

[ruby magnet]

I'd be totally fine with DW in it's current implementation if they fixed the inconsistency of being able to cock the hammer faster when holding 2 pistols... compared to holding only 1 pistol.

[sick anvil]

ROFL ,

[warm zephyr]

It's a little too strong for the little investment

[half stag]

that's . . . not even what we said

[sullen zephyr]

the deringer is 40 bucks you can wipe the whole server with it if you have the skill

[ruby magnet]

what... that.... came out of left field.

[half stag]

huh? same energy as "git gud" or "just headshot them LMAO"

[lunar kettle]

That's the last thing that bothers me about dualis but tbh:
It's even okay without that. They are good up to ~30m. After that it's just luck and if luck hits, then there is nothing you can do against that.

[sick anvil]

Evidence

[keen bolt]

And dual wield use skill?

It's pure rng

In its finest form

[sullen zephyr]

isnt hipfire in generall rng ?

[keen bolt]

And they are 100+ rpm?

[sullen zephyr]

levering winfield swift...

[keen bolt]

And that's 3 slot investment + 3 point trait investment?

[lunar kettle]

It's not pure rng. Ofc it's a lot of rng but not just rng. You still have to aim center or head to increase the chance to hit what you want to hit.

Still rng but not full rng

[sullen zephyr]

dualies are so easy to counter imo just stay at range and youre good, random headshots are a thing of the game, even myself i had a shit ton of lucky headshots where i thought shit that looked sketchy ashell

[ruby magnet]

people complain about geting nailed in the head over 50 meters by DW.. however someone levering his gun at you doing the exact same thing has for some reason less levels of outrage than when dualwielding does it.

[keen bolt]

There's a ratio of corpse to water that human will swim in - this is the same principle

[keen bolt]

Yes I am rifle main I do that all the time

[half stag]

imo, its prob due to the fact that levering requires trait investment and the ads doesn't play hard af into the hipfire

[lunar kettle]

Just because you see more DW instead of levering action. Thats normal.

[sick anvil]

becasue people count levering headshot beyond 50m on one hand while DW headshot beyond 50m you need a rolodex

[ruby magnet]

Lol honestly... I can't IMAGINE that being the reasoning.. I'm sorry, nothing against you, but that is seeking for an explanation that's not a common reason at all.

[sullen zephyr]

see, ofc dualies have a lot of rng, but cmon you cant shit on a gun just because the people playing it uses theyre strenght,i mean who would not try to close the gap when you got close range weapons

[sick anvil]

Its not even a gun , its literally two guns and completly change the whole logic of the game

[half stag]

I mean, you can argue the same point you are making with fanning, no?

[sullen zephyr]

it doesnt.

[ruby magnet]

If aim reticles are the same at 50 meters, than yes

[half stag]

.

we'll agree to disagree then

[keen bolt]

The main problem isn't the counter of it - bur the fact that you literally put no traits and almost no skill into it and it dominate other gun that use more skill to master and also had the same range that it's supposed to work

Like Winfield vandal / Precision pistols and hell even full size Winfield

[ruby magnet]

I mean you do agree with me that if the hipfire reticles aren't the same size between different guns you get different %changes of hitting that head with your spray no?

[sick anvil]

let me rephrase .
Dual wielding is not a gun . its a mechanic that goes against the core of the game play .
While any other mechanic requires some effort to hit the target .
Dualwielding relies solely on having the body of the enemy to some sort inside of the recticle and send bullets as fast as possible at the target and pray RNG god will give you 2 or 3 hits

[ruby magnet]

If Fanning has the same size as levering and DW 50 meters out then yes. You can argue the point holds true for fanning as well.

[ruby magnet]

This was another hilarious suggestion I didn't like in the suggestions channel. Increasing ammo capacity for precision weapons because teh vandal does have more ammo.. comparing pistol characteristics with stock to a rifle characteristic without stock... and suddenly that means you have more ammo on your person when using the pistol.

[half stag]

yea, I do. but I don't agree with how you think levering can equate to the same scenario as dw, when it has way more chances to hit and requires less investment into accessing that ability. (Also levering has actual bounce/recoil when full autoing so you can't use it to equate to dw imo)

[keen bolt]

Yes that's my suggestion actually about the precision

It's just poor balancing choice by crytek nothing much really

Just pointing that one discrepancy

[ruby magnet]

Oh. my bad then. Let me rephrase. I dont think it's... neccesary? I mean if you wanted more ammo then pick the rifle over the pistol?

and if you want the pistol then that's your drawback for picking the pistol?

[keen bolt]

Yup but it's just kinda Weird tbh 😅

[ruby magnet]

I just dont believe we should compare pistol conversions to rifle conversions.

[keen bolt]

I just suggest it if it ever get noticed (low priority)

[ruby magnet]

Ok. fine. Maybe levering is the bad example, but then take a winfield without levering and hipfire it. You just wont know it was hipfired unless you have eagle eyes seeing he shot from a hipfired position.

[keen bolt]

High priority ones should be
Addressing

• Server (but no fast fix on that)
• Slugs
• DW

[ruby magnet]

People in general are underestimating how accurate hipfire is in this game.

[half stag]

fair play

hipfire is underutilized

[keen bolt]

Yup hip firing Cent is what I use

[half stag]

winnie hipfire is scary af

[keen bolt]

No levering tho seriously it sucks

Hipfire kills for me is ...not rewarding

[ruby magnet]

people rage at dualwielding hipfiring them to death is because that's basically what the pistol only can do.

[half stag]

I only really believe in hipfire sub 20 meters

other than that, I'm adsing

[ruby magnet]

you can't precision aim. You got hipfired to death and you know you did because you cant ADS over the barrel.

with a winfield you just dont know

[half stag]

though it is quite sad when people still ads when they get melee rushed and proceed to get shanked

[ruby magnet]

I'm guilty of that fault though... until i'm consciously aware of it and then I hipfire someone to death with a vetterli.

in pure reflex I ads..

[keen bolt]

That is the way

Vetti ads is superior ngl

[ember fulcrum]

Dude that made post in #game-ideas about duals do not understand anything in games. IMO.

[keen bolt]

0.0

Wha

[ruby magnet]

But to come to the point of shotgun buckshot hate I've also read about in the past 6 hours of posts in this channel... I honestly dont understand the issue.

[half stag]

lmao, that one suggestion is absolute meme material

[sick anvil]

ROFL

[keen bolt]

Make a point.

[sick anvil]

there is no point man does not like losing and uses the only thing they can comprehend gun go brrr

cant aford avto

[ember fulcrum]

why should make a point

when you dont

[ruby magnet]

I admit... not gonna lie... I did the same thing... I'm sorry for that.

[dense fjord]

You like dual wield as it is?

[ruby magnet]

He did make a point. it's in the first line of interlude of the suggestion he posted.

[keen bolt]

It allows player to rng their way into Victory that's the point

And that's kinda cheap

[ember fulcrum]

"no more short range dominance by duals (it is a shotgun job really)"
one simple question - why?

shotgun simp?

[half stag]

Why does dual wielding always somehow make people devolve into spewing vitriol and insults, without acting mature, christ, it's like their mothers were insulted or something.

[keen bolt]

Sir you came inside here and in 3 times you've decided to speak you insult me each time - maybe you're not into being adult sir?

[ember fulcrum]

look who speaking

[dense fjord]

That’s unnecessary fat in his suggestion but attacking it is equally as pointless.

[sick anvil]

I wish I had popcorn

[ruby magnet]

probably because we're not in a political courthouse... though that's not saying much nowadays.

[half stag]

Lmao

[keen bolt]

Well I lose braincells just now...

By a sad case

[ruby magnet]

one of us, one of us, one of us XD

[ember fulcrum]

my point is easy - why close range should be for shoguns only?

just why

[sick anvil]

I thought it was unga bunga unga bunga

[dense fjord]

It’s not

You have no point

He could remove that from his suggestion and it would be the same

@ember fulcrum

[keen bolt]

It's for a lot of things. Crossbow / Bow / shotguns / pistols / hipfire in general

[dense fjord]

Fanning and levering

[ember fulcrum]

"no more short range dominance by duals (it is a shotgun job really)"

[half stag]

You're making it seem like he actually read the full thing and actually wants to talk about dualies

[dense fjord]

Which is a whole separate topic but not as big of a problem as dual wield is clearly

[keen bolt]

The bad part of dual wield is the fact that it requires less skill to have same/greater effect as gun that requires actual time and traits investment @ember fulcrum

That's the only bad part of it

And cannot be fixed without rework

[ember fulcrum]

shotgun require much more skill?

[dense fjord]

This is funny to me too

[ember fulcrum]

slugs much bigger problem then duals

[opaque reef]

yes

[keen bolt]

Actually read my name and tell me am I a Shotgun or a Rifle main and you probably could get my take on it

Shotgun requires no fking skill I'm saying this controversial take

[dense fjord]

You somehow become more adept at operating a gun when operating two of them at the same time

[opaque reef]

shotguns only kill at 15 meters or less.

[ember fulcrum]

slugs

[dense fjord]

Not really

[opaque reef]

so yeah, you have to have the skills to actually get into shotgun range, which is a skill in itself

[opaque reef]

15m body, 25 head, but yeah, they need to be nerfed.

[keen bolt]

That's a movement skill which I can respect - being spammed by fmj or bleeding from 20-30m isn not

That is my take on duals

[ember fulcrum]

someone never heard about chain pistol with fanning

[half stag]

and mainly due to the fact that it kills the other shotgun ammo types and a bit one note within a 20m distance, not whatever you're dreaming of

[keen bolt]

Trait investment

[dense fjord]

Huge trait investment and mostly horrible pick lol

[keen bolt]

With duals you put the damn thing together and bam

[opaque reef]

im fine with really close RNG like buckshot or fanning cause it's risk vs reward. but dually spam is just unfun to play against, cause it's ALL luck

[ember fulcrum]

yep because you can control spray, with duals rng is bigger so its free

[dense fjord]

That’s a whole separate thing to balance and shouldn’t keep dual wield from being improved though

[half stag]

Is he ever actually going to say anything about dw, or is he just going to keep talking about random stuff lmao

[opaque reef]

slugs should have less OHK for sure, but maybe a bit more HS range.

like 3-5m OHK and like 60-80HS

just make shotguns bad rifles.

[half stag]

This

[dense fjord]

I disagree

[ember fulcrum]

all i heard dual should this duals should that but i see no point behind it

[half stag]

Ever going to actually explain why? Or do you see no point in that either?

[dense fjord]

You have to hard aim slugs if you want to do well with them reliably. So you’ve already made them weaker than buckshot in it’s applicable range. I would hate for the OHK to chest on slugs to be neutered to sub buckshot range.

[opaque reef]

people are discussing why dual wielding is bad

[half stag]

Point taken

[keen bolt]

Then it means you already have a solidify opinion and no amount of debate - save for your own experience could change your mind.

[opaque reef]

nah, man. i use slugs and can confidently say you can hipfire them at point blank and suceed.

[dense fjord]

I’ve seen otherwise

[opaque reef]

they are a direct upgrade to buckshot.

[dense fjord]

I can pull up a clip on YouTube rn lol

[opaque reef]

there's a reason they're meta

yeah, misses happen, but buckshot lets you down too sometimes.

[dense fjord]

They mostly should be for the price bump they are

[opaque reef]

thats the problem tho

they shouldn't be a direct upgrade

[dense fjord]

You won’t catch me shooting slugs hip fire unless I’m in kissing range

[opaque reef]

what gun?

[dense fjord]

I’d rather have security aiming than RNG single projectile slug going wide

[opaque reef]

cause rival/termi/crown yeah

but specter/romero/slate can hipfire slugs 3-5m and get hits all day

[keen bolt]

I'd say only give slug to shotgun slower than 45 rpm and it would have been fine

[ember fulcrum]

and btw rng would be a point if shotguns were not same

[opaque reef]

anything further and you have time to aim

[dense fjord]

Kissing range

Lemat buckshot kills to 5m

[dense fjord]

They feel pretty different from each other to me

[opaque reef]

unless you are constantly rounding corners without knowing someone is there, buckshot has almost no advantage.

[opaque reef]

shotguns all have pretty different stats my dude.

[ember fulcrum]

wow no shit

really?

[keen bolt]

Shotgun are shotgun - they are rng weapon by design and there's nothing to do to change it.

It's basically Floor is made out of Floor meme

[dense fjord]

CEO of adding nothing to the conversation

[half stag]

This is the guy that thinks shotguns take no skill so . . .

[dense fjord]

Oh lol

[dense fjord]

Slugs

Hard aim reward

[keen bolt]

Yes ... That's seperate issue we're Talking about XD

[ember fulcrum]

i don't having guilty with such words when someone saying obvious things

[dense fjord]

Fair

[keen bolt]

Slugs turns shotgun into skill cannon

Which is ...viable in high 4 - 6 stars

[opaque reef]

you literally said that all shotguns were the same

[ember fulcrum]

where?

[opaque reef]

it's really not that hard to hit with slugs.

[dense fjord]

Buckshot could be more consistent

[opaque reef]

"and btw rng would be a point if shotguns were not same"

[ember fulcrum]

and?

[dense fjord]

Less RNG value range would be better on a lot of things in my opinion

[keen bolt]

True ...when you're that close.

But Slug are one thing I'm more neutral to as of late

[opaque reef]

i just really wish that all shotguns didn't get them

[lunar kettle]

As long as the c&k and rival has slugs it doesn't matter.

[opaque reef]

if they don't want to change them, then at least limit which guns can use them. slow ROF only.

[keen bolt]

I held the same opinion in that regard but many people love the rival slug - (psst I like them actually)

[opaque reef]

romero and specter.

[opaque reef]

you mean the $300 nitro with usable sights?

[keen bolt]

That's exactly why I like it xd

[ember fulcrum]

C&K should not have slugs imo

[keen bolt]

Not saying it's balanced or anything but it's good

I admit it

[opaque reef]

correct, but it's less of a problem than the slate.

[dense fjord]

Make them cost differently on different guns and maybe also change stats on each like Romero slug is a bit more effective damage or range wise than rival slug for example

[keen bolt]

CnK is still expensive late unlock gun but slate getting slug is what sparks the controversy right now

[warped kayak]

For some reason I have a neutral opinion on slugs and I rarely run shotguns, I don't share the same hatred like most others 😂

[keen bolt]

THIS

[opaque reef]

just different stats for each gun would be nice

like when they first came out

[dense fjord]

I feel like slugs are mostly fine but couldn’t hurt to tune them some probably

[warped kayak]

They're annoying to die too, but fighting them in the open you almost feel pity

[dense fjord]

Low velocity at-least

[lunar kettle]

Just decrease the OTK to chest for slugs to 12m
Increase headshot-range to ~45m
decrease double tap to chest to 25m

Only the romero should OHK to chest up to 15m

[dense fjord]

And mostly low ammo if your someone who fights/shoots a lot

[lunar kettle]

That would be a fine nerf in my book

[opaque reef]

i wish the slate buckshot wasn't so bad.

[keen bolt]

Well if ain't the complainers and streamers

[dense fjord]

Idk how to feel about 25m two tap

[ember fulcrum]

btw are servers on technical works? or is down again?

[dense fjord]

My initial reaction is that’s low

[lunar kettle]

Right now you can OHK a guy to chest with 125hp up to 25m.

That's insane for just a shotgun with slugs.

[opaque reef]

slugs should do good damage reasonably far out

that's the whole point of them

[dense fjord]

Vetterli FMJ can do it at 44m lol

I like slugs having range

[opaque reef]

balance changes should never take place on the test server. ever.

[lunar kettle]

Yes, but you can tap tap way faster with the rival slug. It's basicly a mosin up to 50m.

[dense fjord]

You can push people at greater distances more reliably

[lunar kettle]

Just 2 body taps and someone is dead.

[dense fjord]

Gives some incentive to be aggressive in situations you might otherwise be on defense in/back away from

[opaque reef]

which is why the fast shooting shotguns shouldn't get slugs.

[sick anvil]

why are we at slugs all the sudden

back to dw

[dense fjord]

Mosin has 5 and reloads them all way faster and way more velocity and damage retention over range

They’re not comparable at all

[sick anvil]

did you guys really get tricked to redirect the convo away from DW ?

[dense fjord]

More ammo and slugs are special

[keen bolt]

It just goes I think

[lunar kettle]

They are. Not sure how you use that slug but I don't mind taking these shots. Just a QS between sidearm and rival is enough to kill someone.

[dense fjord]

2 slug shots isn’t exactly oppressive out of rival either even though it is good.

[keen bolt]

What we should discuss have been said

[lunar kettle]

And 10 bullets for the rival is more then enough

[dense fjord]

You play rival slug like mosin okay lol

[sick anvil]

that guy the whole time of the convo wanted to move the focus away from dw being the problem pointing towards other guns and see what sticks

[lunar kettle]

After 15m like a mosin. Under 15m like better shotgun.

[dense fjord]

Lol this is true

[keen bolt]

Now the hard part is getting the message to Crytek (like even the mods are downvoting it)

To be fair that guy was total crap at debate

He didn't bring insight nor info in

And also insults

[dense fjord]

Doesn’t track with me at all.

[keen bolt]

That one is a no-go in any civilised debate

[sick anvil]

in general the best way is for it to get traction behind it and get as many people converted towards a rework

cain rework got downvoted all the time

[lunar kettle]

https://streamable.com/q89p1d

I just could have used the upper but for what reason? It's much easier with slugs.

Just like a 'better' mosin at that range. Even 425 m/s is totaly fine.

[sick anvil]

Nerfing is not an answer to dw because no matter how you look at it it will remain rng only load out with more bullets than any other . quad ccp are 96 bullets

cccp is 30 bullets before reload

[dense fjord]

You two tapped a guy who was slow walking sideways

Slugs should be able to do that

[lunar kettle]

It isn't realy a big deal while running. You do it with a upper all the time and the upper has even less m/s then slugs and it's not even that fast between two shots.

[tawny meadow]

@deep kernel deleted your suggestion as it was just trolling.

[dense fjord]

Mosin would have been a easier gun to headshot that guy with anyway

[ember fulcrum]

my point is duals shoud be close range becuase its adds variability for that range and i cannot imagine they not being rng since its how they are in real life

[dense fjord]

Better handling, sharp sights, higher velocity

[lunar kettle]

As it should be.

But hitting chest two times is easier then just headshot a guy.

[dense fjord]

Upper is a 1 slot weapon

[sick anvil]

Dual wielding is not in real life omfg not a single person who ever used a gun to defend their life with one would have picked two guns and shoot them and pray

[ember fulcrum]

hitting chest is easier in general then headshot

[keen bolt]

Nice now a point I can work with

• yes it's rng and that is the reason of people displeasure

[sick anvil]

Akimbo as it is a Movie trope and game trope glorified by actors that hire others to protect their life

[keen bolt]

For how it works it could be tweaked as shooting dual wield in ads (aim one gun - shoot and swap to another side)

Would still be badass cowboy

[ember fulcrum]

i dont think this would work out

[keen bolt]

Why not?

[sick anvil]

because its bot John rambo stile

[ember fulcrum]

because of such animation would take much more time to shoot second bullet

[dense fjord]

Idk arms can get in the way of chest sometimes, you had a really easy clear shot in your example. Even though aiming for center of mass and getting a hit somewhere is easier than always hitting head.

[keen bolt]

It could of clocked in around 50 rpm

[sick anvil]

you figured it out the point is nerfing the damn ROF

[keen bolt]

Which is ...not terrible

50 rpm + ads + 12 bullets seems fair as a rework

And by changing it to ads it means less used pairs could shine - something like Pax pair

[dense fjord]

@keen bolt took me a bit to fully wrap my brain around your suggestion but I love it man.

The whole taking turns ads to shoot faster than 1 pistol thing

[ember fulcrum]

i dont know man, i like how fast they shooting now much slower would be less fun and no different then shooting two times with PAX for example dont even talk about nagant officer

[sick anvil]

you know why guns have sights so you can hit the god damn thing trying to kill you .

[dense fjord]

You have much higher capacity without reloading and much higher reserve ammo

[ember fulcrum]

yeah but down side is medium slot and rng

[keen bolt]

So you admitted you like the rate of fire it brings - tbh It's hard to argue because high rof weapon is fun 😥

[dense fjord]

It could be good if implemented correctly

[sick anvil]

not sure if you ever held a gun but i can tell you even with modern guns at 10 meters you hit one lucky shot with out using the sights

[keen bolt]

I could hit center mass with double action point fire - but eh it's kinda hard for the untrained still

[dense fjord]

Way less RNG cause you actually ads, only RNG would be sway but that’s a separate thing.

[sick anvil]

size of target and distance ?

and position of gun

[keen bolt]

Competition target - 25m - Smith and Wesson model 10 - ofc the classic 2 handed

[ember fulcrum]

im gettin really hard time imagining such change with duals and they still being valuable

[sick anvil]

from the hip 6 shots center mass

[keen bolt]

Nope! Ofc I whiffed 2 of them

Like ... I got to score 1 point on 1 of them and the other flies to god knows where

[sick anvil]

and you fired the gun from the hip thus when the barrel cleares the holster 90 turn up shoot

or was it from low ready

[keen bolt]

Low ready

[dense fjord]

I’d actually try them and probably use them with the suggestion he made if it was implemented well

[keen bolt]

Just standard practicing

[sick anvil]

well from low ready that is not hipfire

[keen bolt]

XD yeah point fire

[ember fulcrum]

but would it be implemented well thats a question

[sick anvil]

that is different

[dense fjord]

It has to be better than what we got currently lol

[keen bolt]

It's not the same thing as hipfire but kinda similar as a reference

As I miss 2 out of 6

[dense fjord]

That’s my opinion atleast

[ember fulcrum]

im fine with how they are now

playing against or with them

[dense fjord]

I feel that they’re horribly unbalanced especially after crytek nerfed them

[sick anvil]

Well not really i tried draw hip fire shooting and 25 m target us just to far away pointing gun shooting is different

[keen bolt]

Everyone has their own opinion and that's okay but if you might wish to see the change consider the thinking option 🤔

I love that you discuss it with actual point this time around

[sick anvil]

while your gun is pointing at the target your eyes anker on gun parts to align with the target

[ember fulcrum]

since im fine with them now i do not wish changes

[sick anvil]

while from hip you are looking at the target but the gun is on your side even inhaling trows you of target

[keen bolt]

I know what hipfire is yes ...

Most of the times in game tho what we call "hipfire" is actually point firing

[sick anvil]

True

i wish 1.4.4 would never have happened

[keen bolt]

I'll be off now guys

Cya

[sick anvil]

see ya

[warped kayak]

Can you explain what this patch is, I'm relatively new to the game

[sick anvil]

That patch was the dooms day when they introduced dual weilding

[crystal plume]

Damn, I wish my view of the game state was as drama filled and exciting as yours

[sick anvil]

Rofl

was wondering when you show up

[crystal plume]

I've been reading the convo on and off

Just finding it funny how dual wield was one of the most hyped features to come since it was shown in the earliest trailers already, and when it's finally out it's apparently the doomsday

I don't disagree that there could be some changes to it, but nothing as extreme as you people are suggesting

[sick anvil]

I just use poetic language

[crystal plume]

I'd just start off with making the rof actually match double the fire rate of a single pistol instead of being slightly higher as it currently is

[sick anvil]

in general what i was hoping for at the time was actually exactly hip fire bad ads gun cycling

[crystal plume]

Not drastic changes like ADS and stuff like that

[ember fulcrum]

even more rof? nah not will be anything good

[crystal plume]

No?

[sick anvil]

I think the words he used match the ROf of DW to what a single gun has not double

[crystal plume]

The current rof is higher than double of a single pistol

I'm saying to reduce it to be consistent

[ember fulcrum]

oh i get it wrong

sorry

[sick anvil]

Id say DW should no where near be 200% rof of single gun

[ember fulcrum]

reduce rof? idk maybe but not dramatic

[queen jungle]

Being able to ADS dual guns individually was ruled out by the devs from the very beginning, stating that it would be far too powerful.

[sick anvil]

Also devs green lighted Cain and that was a mistake too

[dense fjord]

That’s funny

[sick anvil]

Also thing that was more an excuse because no game ever did it and it was way to complicated to pull of and actually keep it with in reasonable balance

every game ever using DW always uses Hip fire and Boobie squeeze

cause for some magical reason if you squeeze your boobies together your shooting gets more accurate

[keen bolt]

I'm back from work now btw

[keen bolt]

It might be true - but hunt dev despite being good dev tends to underbalance things : 92 NA, Terminus, Centennial

All perform at sub-standard when it was dropped

Due to Dev afriad of something being too op

[queen jungle]

Balancing in any competitive game is a constantly ongoing effort. It never ends and whenever new guns are added, things may need to be shifted.

[keen bolt]

Yup this

Dual wield need to change somehow

While still being viable

One way or another

[keen bolt]

This works but could kill their popularity entirely

On some pairs atleast

[queen jungle]

Honestly I think it's fine except for some minor changes. Like the rate of fire Diiba mentioned.

Beyond 10-20m. dual wielding is so inaccurate whether you hit or not is down to pure luck

[keen bolt]

I think low rof would be the end of it. (As in terms of usability)

[queen jungle]

But of course people remember the one random headshot and not the twenty missed shots before that

[keen bolt]

I like the concept of dualies but not how most game do it tbh

When under 20m dualies totally dominate other stuff there's also that - and fmj through walls without trait investment

I get it's supposed to be strong there actually

As a person who dual wield I just like most aspects except how cheap it is in terms of skill used

[dense fjord]

That’s part of the problem

[queen jungle]

How? Dual pistols is a short-range loadout so it being random as hell beyond that range is what makes it balanced.

[keen bolt]

As in a person could train himself over and over with shotgun/crossbow till they dominate said range but dualies being rng weapon it's just aim and pray

This is probably the part most people didn't like it I assume

[dense fjord]

It’s just a worse interaction all around for people using it and having it used against them

Those headshots or even hits feel less deserved by the recipient and less earned by the shooter

If anything I would think the better balance attempt would be to minimize the RNG value range so that more accurate aim is required and rewarded.

[queen jungle]

I disagree, having RNG aspects is perfectly fine. What would you want Crytek to do, have dual wielding bullets despawn past 20m?

[sick anvil]

RNG is not fine . if i want to play against RNG i go to a casino

[keen bolt]

Could make them ADS with lower rof...

That would eliminate rng element

And focus more on user's precision

[queen jungle]

In that case, duals would be useless for close-range, which is what they were designed for.

[keen bolt]

(that's the whole idea behind mine atleast)

[keen bolt]

Yes that's what I was going for

Sadly

[dense fjord]

That has nothing to do with what I said?

That’s a weird deflection

[burnt mulch]

whats the practical difference between someone using dualies RNG to hit vs someone that’s just bad at aiming and fires in a general direction?

[keen bolt]

Basically it was to make dualies medium range option - and close range only in a pinch

Dualies are the most weird in terms of guns Crytek ever added in - as in core design of it

[keen bolt]

Not really

Except one gets better at aiming said rifle

While the other relies on a coin flip

[burnt mulch]

right, sure. but in the moment and in terms of gameplay there’s no difference.

[keen bolt]

I'm not a new player who just joined so I went through the pain of spamming Vetterli Hoping to get a hit before and it's not a fun experience

[opaque reef]

reduce the ROF to what it should be, and reduce the spread to make up for it.

[keen bolt]

Another one being the rof

[dense fjord]

That doesn’t excuse poor dual wield balancing in any way.

[keen bolt]

But yes I agree that it has no difference

[burnt mulch]

well rof is just another way of saying higher chance to hit, which can be compared to someone with better aim.

[dense fjord]

[burnt mulch]

and rof doesnt matter in a peeking war which, you should be getting into with a dualies user anyway

[keen bolt]

Yup that's the exact concept but the concept itself is flawed that's what I'm saying

[burnt mulch]

how is the concept itself flawed?

[queen jungle]

Shooting dual pistols past 20m is not a viable tactic. It depends on pure luck and is usually a measure of desperation.
It's not something someone would plan on using to kill another player.

[keen bolt]

Allowing faster firing gun for less skilled player to compete with higher skill player without trait investment

And also fmj wall spam

Sometimes they don't have to initiate peeking war

They just headshot you through wall

Or metal you're hiding behind

[burnt mulch]

putting aside fmj, which i think breaks the concept of dualies for several reasons, what is exactly the problem with letting a lesser skilled layer beat a more skilled player?
that already happens with stuff like lucky headshots, no?

and the concept of a low skill ceiling, low barrier to entry option is not a novel one

[keen bolt]

It works till 30-40m if we're counting in fmj suppressing fire

But that's the part I like

[burnt mulch]

something like Garen in League of Legends is intentionally designed to be simple and straightforward, easy to get decent value out of but binary and can be outplayed.

[keen bolt]

Uh I don't play league so I'd skip on that debate

[burnt mulch]

eh I’m using it as an example. Something like idk.. ganondorf in smash?

the point is, its not exactly a novel concept.

[dense fjord]

It could be reliable and more balanced in my opinion if the range of RNG(not bullets maybe this confused you earlier) was reduced/tightened to something fairly accurate which would require good centering of the crosshair over what you would like to hit.

[keen bolt]

There's a case of dualies domination within 20m still (and rapid wallbangs without trait investment).

And we're going in circles

For the first time... We have hit D. Johnson's ass

(Hit Rock bottom)

[burnt mulch]

? you were talking about dualies as a concept was flawed.
and like I said, fmj is a separate thing. Dualies conveniently sidestep any downsides of FMJ by design which is problematic.
i don’t know if I’d call dualies domination in 20m but sure.

[dense fjord]

They do have rof, ammo, and hit punch going for them

[keen bolt]

Yup even as a concept it was weird as in - it allows player who, without skill investment to do what player with it (fan/lever) do

• which is quite bad
  (just as the Dolch used to be hated due to the same reason)

But when combined it with special ammo (which is a fine concept) it got massively f.

[burnt mulch]

the dolch was hated because it was too strong lol. bad players were made good with it, and good players were made great with it.

dualies make bad players good and good players.. still good.
fmj is again a separate issue that I do agree is a problem.

[keen bolt]

And yes bad players becomes good

And good player ...equips the fmj

[burnt mulch]

dude I already said fmj is a problem

[keen bolt]

I love the fmj don't touch it

XD

Yes I'm guarding the FMJ because it's my 2nd dolch

[burnt mulch]

well then we’re done here cuz i cant have an objective discussion with someone that just wants to defend something they like to use.

[keen bolt]

Really tho

Fmj is a skill ammo

That's another point I would make

[burnt mulch]

not with dualies it isnt.

[opaque reef]

not in duallies

[keen bolt]

Because dualies is a BAD concept

It mix good shit with bad shit what's gonna happen

[burnt mulch]

you’re blaming dualies for a problem that both dualies and fmj contribute to equally..

[keen bolt]

If fmj contribute so greatly then why it ain't a problem on Vetterli/centennial and any other myriads of weapons

But when it mix with dualies and ONLY dualies it's a problem

Makes you think which one is a problem

[tribal wyvern]

Same reason why Slugs is better on C&K than romero 😛

[burnt mulch]

actual dogshit take lol.

[keen bolt]

Yes and I want it removed

[dense fjord]

lol yours maybe

[burnt mulch]

if fmj did not exist, dualies would not be a problem.
the core concept of dualies is not an issue.
it’s the combination of the two that’s a problem

[keen bolt]

Well ok I rethink about it there's a point in that.

But like

If they would fix one of them

Why would it be fmj and not dualies

[dense fjord]

If you don’t recognize an issue with dual wield that’s a skill issue

[keen bolt]

Fmj used to be bullshit till it was buffed to what it is

[dense fjord]

Is that really your opinion?

[tribal wyvern]

This confuses me a bit when ppl say "dualies requires no skill." & "dualies is all rng."

[dense fjord]

We are being trolled rn

[burnt mulch]

I explained the concept of dualies already. a low-skillcap, low barrier of entry option.

[dense fjord]

Well yes that’s exactly my point

Maybe it was lost in my writing

[burnt mulch]

if anything i think if you really believe dualies are a problem its cuz you cant beat them, ergo you have the skill issue?

[dense fjord]

Don’t project your issues on to me buddy

I see what is going on here

[sacred sparrow]

Don't listen to people here too much 😉 this discord is full of people that prefer talking about a game over playing it

[burnt mulch]

im not the one that has a problem with dualies lol

[dense fjord]

The fact that you cannot, tells me all I need to know

[burnt mulch]

tf am i not telling you

[keen bolt]

and I would say it's a bad concept - because no skill gun should not be a thing! Like this is Hunt showdown not Call of duty single player

Even Winfield 'spam' has to hit the head

Low skill gun? I'm fine with it - the pre nerf dolch that is

But duals is literally pure rng

[burnt mulch]

we’re talking about prenerf dolch again when it wasnt low skill it was just OP.

[keen bolt]

It was low skill - aka op

[burnt mulch]

no its separate things.

[keen bolt]

When a gun requires less skill to use than other

[burnt mulch]

the difference is the benefit at different levels of play

[sacred sparrow]

exactly. no matter how fast a gun fires, if you aim using ironsight, sure you still need to do the work. any hipfire "bullets end up somewhere in the crosshair" high rate of fire mechanics should never have been in the game. but then again: if you bought this game the last year, you don't know how the game used to be and how crytek completely threw the gunplay concept out the door in order to cater to newbie players.

[keen bolt]

That could account for that I don't doubt that point

[keen bolt]

This

Crytek threw the core gunplay of hunt away

[sacred sparrow]

indeed. but again: if people joined the last year or so, they don't know "any better"

so i can understand they don't see the issue

cause they jumped into a game where this was already a thing

[keen bolt]

Okay maybe I'm just being elitist gate keeper or something but I don't really think it should exist in its current form

[sacred sparrow]

i agree with you, i think it's bullcrap

[keen bolt]

And because I too want to be badass cowboy who dual wield it I don't want it removed

[sacred sparrow]

just putting it into perspective

[burnt mulch]

dualies are literally not even that strong. all I’m hearing is “noobs shouldnt have any viable options except get meat grinded until they git gud”

[keen bolt]

Yes?

Learn the game?

[burnt mulch]

they are?

[sacred sparrow]

well, that's the kind of game crytek put on the market. and it attracted fans of no-hand-holding kind of games, that require you to put work in.

[keen bolt]

By using their aim? Or some Rng?

[burnt mulch]

or if they dont, they reach a cap to how good they can be

[keen bolt]

Okay this one makes sense

[sacred sparrow]

and you're a bit of a naive person if you don't think dualies are strong 😄 come on now. we can discuss all you want, but you have to stay a bit serious to be taken serious too

we all know those spammy mechanics (dual wielding being one of those) were added to give new players an easier time because they were crying on reddit that they were getting hammered by veterans

same with the QS nerf, that was done to make it harder on veterans

[sick anvil]

If you are given an option of no skill just spam as your first thing you can do you will never pick up anything else as a new player while it gives new players a viable way to play they will never become any better

[sacred sparrow]

didn't help in the end, same players still get smacked by experienced players

all they did is take a lot of the enjoyment and skill-based gunplay out

[burnt mulch]

dualies are not a problem unless they have fmj on them. and dualies with fmj sidestep the downsides which is a problem in emergent design

[opaque reef]

i rarely see duallies in 5-6 star

[sacred sparrow]

you said that. i don't agree, it makes no sense, but if you believe that, sure. we can disagree that's fine

[keen bolt]

Maybe don't let dualies have special ammo?

[opaque reef]

most good players don't want that much rng

[burnt mulch]

what about it doesnt make sense?

[burnt mulch]

this is fine.

[sacred sparrow]

i didn't say there were, never even mentioned the stars

[keen bolt]

Could keep it as noob gun

But doesn't let the vet abuse it

This actually could work

[opaque reef]

i can see how they would be dominant in lower elo and on console.

[keen bolt]

I'll post it as seperate idea

[burnt mulch]

i mean imo fmj should have different levels of pen for different sizes of ammo

[sacred sparrow]

that would make sense

[burnt mulch]

but that’s kinda a separate point

[dense fjord]

Before nerf you’d see good players with dual conversion FMJ with mosin or something like it even in 6 star. Now even more good players have moved even farther away from dual wield and it’s firmly cemented as a no skill slot machine

[keen bolt]

So how you guys think of 2nd udea

Idea

[split wasp]

I like first idea more.

[keen bolt]

And yeah ofc I didn't expect anything less than dislike piles for both

[burnt mulch]

i think it slightly misrepresents dualies, since being a low skill floor/cap gun is a side effect of its one-dimensional nature, but it solves the issue of fmj with dualies.

you’re going to get a lot of disagreement from people who think dualies are just bad game design

but yeah you knew that

[split wasp]

Honestly, I feel like OG days amounts of sway on them would make it much better.

Like, back before release

Sway now is so toned down in comparison.

[keen bolt]

Ofc This is the issue of being the moderate

[split wasp]

It would slow your rate of fire down naturally rather than hard capping it too.

At least at further distance.

[burnt mulch]

i think if you framed it as “fmj with dualies is a problem, fix that” instead of “this is how to fix dualies” you’d have gotten more agreement.

[keen bolt]

Yeah fixed up a bit

[little carbon]

I wouldnt say that. Their main effectiveness in terms of being able to compensate against someone (a bit) better is in medium skill matches.
For low skill players it mostly makes no difference, because aiming in itself will be almost random, and in high skill they simply are not reliable enough, when people can just reliably headshot and dont need to rely on the rng
Generally comparing the skill curve (weapon efficiency in dependence of player skill) of dualies with something like the mosin one would propably find that dualies rise steeper but plateu on a lower efficiency level. Whereas a mosin requires more skill input for the same effect, but can get a higher efficiency.

[opaque reef]

i would argue that the lower the skill level the more work dualies do.

[keen bolt]

That's what he say tho

At the last part

@rigid basalt that's a good trait

[rigid basalt]

thanks

[keen bolt]

If anything give it variable reload time depending on guns

[rigid basalt]

yeah that was my thought too

[keen bolt]

Man ...8-9 hours of Dual wield debate is wild XD

[burnt mulch]

meh if you just keep checking back on it someones always gonna have something to say.

[rigid basalt]

and also it would have to be a something like 40% relaodspeedboost all in all was my thought i dont write numbers in suggestions though causr that would only cause massive amoutns of dislikes

[keen bolt]

40% on something like slug Shotgun is gonna be wild yes XD

I'd gladly take Speedy reload on my Vetterli and Specter compact tho

[rigid basalt]

my idea is like 40% faster but it would be like a 4 point-trait

i am also planing to risk my head and i ll suggest a slamfire perk later on today but holy f the diskussion about duallys today is wild

[keen bolt]

You're there?

[dense fjord]

Maybe I didn’t communicate my point effectively. Dual wielding is worse for all involved both on giving and receiving end. I don’t even care to mention the difference as they are now between lower and higher elo but I feel like they have no place as they are implemented currently.

[unborn smelt]

@keen bolt 50 Rpm, high sway and medium slot with faster inaccrute hipfire is a vandal winnie

[dense fjord]

All I meant to say in my last post about good players using them is that it’s even farther removed from something someone with good aim would want to use but is reinforced in its role as a low elo/ low skill/low effort/low investment RNG reward mechanic. @little carbon

[unborn smelt]

And that thing sucks pretty bad

[keen bolt]

With 12 shots - comes in all configuration from uppercut to puny nagant

Atleast 12 ...

[unborn smelt]

Yeah still gonna suck with most pistols

[keen bolt]

With no trait investment

[unborn smelt]

Vandals downfall is not the 7 round mag

[keen bolt]

It will have 70 rpm hipfire tho

So yeah could be used in a pinch

[unborn smelt]

Still sucks

Because you remove the "reliable" hipfire

[keen bolt]

And so you're saying that if it reliably hipfire it will be great?

If so I could buff it

[unborn smelt]

And replace it with a bad and slow hipfire

[sick anvil]

Well to be exact DW CCP should be 44rpm

[unborn smelt]

It either needs a better Rof or no added sway imo to work

[keen bolt]

Great input

Yup better sway it is

Now I'm gonna finish the sandwich first xd

[dense fjord]

I remember pre nerf vandal

Loved it

[unborn smelt]

You mean the bugged for no extrasway vandal?

[dense fjord]

That’s the one

[unborn smelt]

Because the last nerfs, while undeserved didnt really change much

[dense fjord]

Yes

They were minor adjustments

[keen bolt]

@unborn smelt adjusted yes

I just adjusted the post

so yeah

[unborn smelt]

Yeah then i fully agree tbh

[keen bolt]

basically a ranged option still but could self defense - but quite unreliably

I swear dual wield is 2nd most controversial thing other than slug lol

or is it about a Nitro/Avto?

[dense fjord]

@rigid basalt point cost on that trait?

I hate avto lol

As much as dual wield

Nitro I am on the fence about

I’d have to think about it more and I can’t spare the brain power rn

[slim blade]

@timid flameTitle : New Tool

Des : Make a new tool which is OIL .

That's "permanent fire at all entrances to the boss lair + the boss killing itself in flames I lit in the middle of its lair". As of now, you can lure lantern grunts to the entrance you want to set on fire (having sliced the grunt's legs with a knife to make them walk slower and become more manageable) and that's already a lot.

[drifting quartz]

@proud helm I don't think it would make sense to have it swapping how it melees. I also think the biggest issue is that people would hate it for using chokes, so maybe if they made the coughing less intense that could work. "Weak" to explosives may be a bad idea, but if sticky bombs wouldn't work on it then I can see the reasoning. Beyond all that, really good idea, I bet the dev team could work the rest of the kinks out.

[north onyx]

@proud helm high velocity caldwell conversion

[proud helm]

The conversion pistol doesn't get high velocity, it gets FMJ and Dumdum, so it was probably FMJ and that makes sense.

[proud helm]

Thanks for the feedback! Weak to explosives is probably unnecessary

[north onyx]

The fmj should make it do more damage through a layer of wood, not just magically penetrate all the layers

[drifting quartz]

@north onyx "improved penetration power over regular ammo"

A bullet can go through multiple layers of wood with ease, FMJ make that wood like sheet paper

[north onyx]

@drifting quartz I get what it says, I'm just saying it's wrong

[drifting quartz]

Why is it wrong? Like you don't it or it should do something else?

[north onyx]

it's small ammo from a handgun, it's basically 3 wooden walls and a slanted wood roof, it would not just cut through it like paper.