#feedback-discussion

1 messages · Page 181 of 1

unborn smelt
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I#m trying to explain why there has to be a larger margin of error for that specific threshold (the one that allows server history rewrites) than for others

flat sandal
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hmmm, it's interesting when you think about going through a door actually^^

flat sandal
unborn smelt
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because even tho the ping limit might be set at 200 ms for example, network jitter can cause temporary spikes much larger.
And since that treshold doesn#t just affect trades, also regular gameplay, it'd also affect lots of aspects that don't have you interact with other players

flat sandal
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absolutely. but why not have the validation check for shots use a differnt number while keeping the rest the same?

unborn smelt
flat sandal
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not saying it will be better but 800ms is like... 0,8 seconds 😄

unborn smelt
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So in case of a trade you shoot another player, that player also tries to shoot you. Lets assume they have 1500ms ping, meaning the information from their client takes 750ms to reach the server, it would not be invalidated by the 800ms threshold.
However to end in a trade, it'd still need to pass serverside validation. So the server would then run it's validation strategies, which should include checking if the positions of shooter and target on the client and server match, bullet type, trajectory, etc, usually also inluding checking if the shooter is alive serverside.
If the shot fails that validation, the 800ms don't matter at all, it will be invalidated regardless

flat sandal
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yes, I understood that 🙂

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but the client is still kinda king on those matters so there is probably not much to invalidate it for

unborn smelt
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so it all comes down to how exactly the serverside validation works, if that does it's job correctly, the 800ms basically never matter for trades

flat sandal
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compared to another approach

flat sandal
viscid bough
flat sandal
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if it was lower it would invalidate the shot based on that

viscid bough
flat sandal
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and the "trade window" would be hard capped

unborn smelt
viscid bough
flat sandal
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but we know we can get crazy trades. not saying the approach is bad at all. it's a trade-off

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it's good for high ping players though

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which isnt neccessarily bad either

unborn smelt
flat sandal
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what I dont like is that toxic aholes can use it just to be annoying

unborn smelt
flat sandal
unborn smelt
flat sandal
unborn smelt
flat sandal
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like make their ping higher

unborn smelt
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if that doesn't happen the serverside validation for shots needs to be looked at not the 800ms threshold

flat sandal
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okay yeah but, we clearly can get these insane trades so what validation could that possibly be?

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client says, he dead, so he dead

unborn smelt
flat sandal
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not really, if we observe a max of 800ms

unborn smelt
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it could be that they opted for a system that's more lenient to high ping players, it could also just be a network interruption on your end when you get sent back the data of what the server said happened

flat sandal
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yeah I did get that back when he died

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or rather when I got the hit marker

unborn smelt
flat sandal
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but that is what max means

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and since we can observe it means it can happen

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we probably can't observe more then that, cause that's the window where a shot will be invalidated

unborn smelt
flat sandal
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I think we can, I got a hit marker. that is the message from the server

viscid bough
flat sandal
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then the time ticks

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that is assuing really close combat

unborn smelt
flat sandal
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yeah and now I am talking about these crazy trades where the person dies and "I" run behind cover two steps and die by their shot still

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actually never happened to me personally so I'm not mad about it^^

unborn smelt
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Yes if that happens, and is truely an issue with too lenient validation (which just for the record, i won't deny the possibility of) It's for crytek to find out based on the data they gather, and is an issue with serverside validation of shots, not the threshold for serverstate rewrites

flat sandal
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it is though cause the server already thinks the guy is dead

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it told me 😄

unborn smelt
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That's the point i'm trying to make all along. If invalidation of shots due to them being created serverside after death serverside is happening, that's got nothing to do with the 800ms threshold

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that's a result of shot validation not doing a good job

flat sandal
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yes and I am saying we observe this 🙂

viscid bough
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And i hope this info is wrong, but are those backend servers on 33hz/30 Ticks?

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Bec if this is true, we can end the discussion right here

unborn smelt
flat sandal
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there is a lot going on for the server per tick

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but the game is actually feeling really solid if there are no ping issues

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so seems to work

viscid bough
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yes thats what you see, bec there's a prediction system running on your client-side

flat sandal
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no it's what I feel 😄

viscid bough
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but if the servers only register your shots every 33hz then we can also go play minecraft brother

flat sandal
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dont you feel the same?

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that's 30 ms

waxen egret
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Nice fix of the black screen for windows 10 that didnt change anything at all
1 month passed and I still cant even start the game

unborn smelt
viscid bough
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ofc thats needed, but 30 tick rate in 2024?

flat sandal
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not an expert but that is probably why client side validation feels better

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cause you react to what you can see

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but leads to some weird things too

unborn smelt
flat sandal
unborn smelt
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we have clientside hitregistration with serverside validation

flat sandal
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yes sry^^

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I did say I'm not an expert 😄

unborn smelt
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no need to apologize, typos can happen easily

flat sandal
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yeah, it was a typo

viscid bough
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for me it makes sense now, with 30 ticks everythings said.
thank you @unborn smelt for your time and feedback! ❤️

unborn smelt
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but that's just my own understanding nothing have confirmation about from smth like a devlog

flat sandal
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already got package loss as it is sometimes

viscid bough
flat sandal
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someone need to make an experiment on the shooting range

unborn smelt
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Yeah i can understand an issue like that, i myself have frequent issues with hunt. From an unresponsive node my ISP refuses to fix, to a congested internet connection due to old hardware in the house and streets that can feel really bad

flat sandal
crystal plume
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All games do not scale the same tickrate wise, CS is small maps with 10 players with relatively small amount of things to keep track of

unborn smelt
crystal plume
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Hunt is a 1km x 1km map with PVE in addition to the players that need to load the PVE and keep track of them

unborn smelt
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which if both shots are validated in the same tick could mean a trade

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that's however where technical limitations come in

viscid bough
crystal plume
flat sandal
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from my own experience with the game I am willing to believe that the 800ms and the server tick rate are actually good choices for the game

viscid bough
crystal plume
flat sandal
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server meshing in hunt? 😄

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hey soon it will be a thing in the industry boys

unborn smelt
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Tickrate is where my knowlege gets thinner, even tho i think i get the very basics.
I don't know how much of a technical limitation there is to higher tickrates, altho they would be preferable

hoary badger
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Trading is getting way more out of hands and happening every day.how can a dead guy kill me?

viscid bough
# crystal plume This part especially explains why they didn't just increase the tickrate for Ape...

"Put simply, the higher the tick rate, the higher the bandwidth sent to all players. If we were to move from a 20Hz server to a 60Hz server, it would mean multiplying the bandwidth the game uses by three. As of today, Apex Legends roughly consumes 60kB/s at the beginning of a game. A 60Hz server would consume 180kB/s. That may not sound like a lot, but it’s quite a bit, and we are always looking for ways to reduce the required bandwidth. "

flat sandal
hoary badger
viscid bough
flat sandal
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do we actually send our data to the server in packages in that rate as well? asking for a friend

viscid bough
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therefore if you want to increase tickrate you need exponential more power and less bottlenecks ig

flat sandal
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bandwidth would be higher and the server has to calculate quicker

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I think

unborn smelt
flat sandal
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I guess all they can do is optimise stuff but clearly the servers couldnt handle more work rn

unborn smelt
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yeah but how much can they reasonably optimize to potentially improove on the trading situation (assuming it indeed is at least largely influenced by the tickrate the servers run at)

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I simply have no idea about that

flat sandal
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well the contribution of the tick rate to trades should be linear

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ish

viscid bough
flat sandal
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and probably not very high to start with

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it adds maximal 30ms to the calculation, right?

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honestly dont know but the kind of things to optimise is pathfinding and stuff like that

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just making the calculations more efficient

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and I'm guessing bandwidth just depends on all the things that need to be replicated

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super ignorant take probably^^

viscid bough
flat sandal
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whats ROI?

viscid bough
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Return of Investment, you need like a dev team to work on this for months. what do you get as a company in return? Yes maybe 2-5% more players but its maybe just not worth the investment

flat sandal
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for crytek it might be since they have their own engine

viscid bough
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their devs still cost them money.. game industry is paid bad in comparison to other software development companies but im system engineer not software dev so im just talking what has been told to me

flat sandal
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yes but it transfers to all other projects

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also you cant afford to fall behind in the engine scene 😄

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so you kinda always have to improve

viscid bough
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thats true yep

flat sandal
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idk, ppl probably write papers about that stuff and they just have to implement it

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anyways 😄

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nuff talk

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cheers mates, was fun

unborn smelt
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have a great day you two

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👍

viscid bough
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thanks for this discussion!
You 2 🙂 Happy hunting

little fulcrum
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Didn't expect such a juicy ninja patch. Great job, devs. ❤️

flat sandal
idle folio
hot vigil
flat sandal
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how does it account for time zones? I dont know much about that stuff. I would benefit from a clarification^^

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oh really?

hot vigil
flat sandal
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what does it say for you?

idle folio
hot vigil
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(I'm GMT+1 btw)

flat sandal
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iiinteresting

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I take it back then 😄

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also new patch when I get home^^

crystal plume
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@whole summit Have you not used the spyglass recently? It already does that as far as I remember

whole summit
slender geyser
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When i see the latest announcement i wonder if there's an QA department at all ? I keep regretting it more and more to have supported crytek via buying countless DLCs when i see their recent deliveries and apparently how the money was spend (or not spend).

Having several hunters at level 50 not being able to play since they are part of the "disabled" list just sucks.

queen jungle
rotund obsidian
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@unborn sandal #game-ideas message the throwing tools (knife/axes/spear) all have zero damage drop over distance. While they could introduce damage drop, I think i'd be fine if they just reduced the velocity of spear by a tad and made legshots nonlethal. oh and also make it either slower or worse in some way when you're out of stamina

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also if they try to add damage drop over distance im sure they'd somehow completely break it

unborn sandal
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Fair enough

unborn smelt
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throwing should just cost stamina for all throwing weapons i think

rotund obsidian
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it does, but you can still throw them while at 0

unborn sandal
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I feel like leg and arm shots should still be pretty punishing but not one shot. Do like 125 damage and heavy bleed if you don’t have bloodless

unborn smelt
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I mean yeah, i know, i should have worded it better

unborn sandal
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considering you do only get one chance to throw the spear and it’s gone

unborn smelt
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Essentially i think if you try throwing with no stamina it should either be drastically worse (like halved damage and velocity, and double the drop) or you just shouldn't be able to throw

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As for OHK anywhere, i think having one throwable do that is a cool thing, makes it a viable PvP option. Altho i don't think it necessarily should be the one with the highest velocity and lowest drop on top

rotund obsidian
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don't forget it's also the most accurate throwable

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because fuck the throwing knives, i guess

unborn smelt
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the issue with limb hits not killing with throwables makes them basically useless in PvP, considering they have random horizontal deviation and no limb pen

unborn smelt
rotund obsidian
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spear's spread just isn't enough for that to really matter imo, but I do still think arm hits should oneshot yeah

unborn smelt
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the way the spear worked til the recent nerf i aagree (havent spent much time with it since the nerf tho)

unborn sandal
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They didn’t nerf the spread or the throw and all

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All they didn’t was make the light melee a reasonable speed and reduce the melee damage by a bit

rotund obsidian
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yeah the nerf just slightly reduced heavy melee dmg, and the SPEED (not dmg) of the light atk

unborn smelt
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I think a good system would be that you need to have had at least 1 stamina when throwing to do a full powered throw for all of those weapons, and then the throwing axes should OHK anywhere, considering they have the most drop and are tied for lowest velocity. Give it the highest stam cost to boot and it'd be fine.

Then the spear could keep the precision, speed and still a high damage (OHK to torso and maybe arms) but also with high stam requirement

And the knives should be more precise and with low stam cost since they have low dmg and still low velocity

next yarrow
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I just don't think the spear makes sense for a tool slot

unborn smelt
next yarrow
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It's either going to do too much or feel really weird to useHuntCrab

trail carbon
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I mean, currently I feel like the katana and the spear kind of invalidate every other melee option simply by being better

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Spear being a tool is definitely a part of that

unborn smelt
trail carbon
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Yeah, that was weird to me. Why make the katana a 1 slot?

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Bomblance feels very underloved by the way

unborn smelt
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propably because making no melee a medium slot was a systemic change

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and i guess it was because very few people took medium slot melee that we re not new additions, and at least on PC melee as a whole was not common to beginn with

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But that's just my guess

trail carbon
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I see the katana a decent amount

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My main issue with the katana is the crazy range it has with martialist

unborn sandal
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I think the katana was in a good place as a two slot

trail carbon
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Yeah, it felt like an upgrade to the machete

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And sure, it was just better than the axe

unborn smelt
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I think, taking the other melee out of the equation, the katana is still fine as a 1 slot.

trail carbon
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Its just so fast

unborn smelt
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a dedicated melee weapon is very restrictive on the loadout with almost no decent upside over a melee variant of a gun

unborn sandal
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But that’s the problem you have to balance it with the other melees and the katana is drastically superior in pretty much every way to all the melees beside the bomb lance

trail carbon
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But the bomblance is a 3 slot

unborn sandal
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I saw katanas getting used when it was a two slot

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The change to one slot has not really made me see it any more frequently

unborn smelt
trail carbon
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I see it a good bit even in 5 and 6 star land

unborn smelt
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like why would i bring a combat axe, when i can bring a Talon gun which got buffed to do the same damage in melee

trail carbon
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Yeah

unborn smelt
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i do loose out on that light swing, but i get an entire gun in the same slot as an upside

trail carbon
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Yeah, I do think that was a balancing error

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Just removing the downsides of melee attachments kinda made most melee weapons irrelevant

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The only way one becomes relevant is when it's ridiculous like the spear

rotund obsidian
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I do think it was strange that they removed any downside for the melee attachments (besides having blunt stocks, for some)

unborn smelt
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I mean a tiny bit of extra sway and a few buyks more was IMO still not outweighing the downsides of a melee weapon pre-buff

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like even before the buffs it was cheaper and more effective to buy a martini riposte than a sperate martini and a sabre

trail carbon
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Yeah

unborn smelt
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I think the core of the issue is that they couldn't quite make up their mind how big of a role melee should play

trail carbon
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I think the spear was an incorrect response to melee being less useful than most other options

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Because now everyone has one

unborn smelt
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if you plan on melee weapons being their own somewhat worthy category, you can't have tools that are meant for PvE OHK players easily

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nor should a player that brought a full on melee weapon get just clowned on because the other guy bought a gun with a poky end.
If melee issupposed to be a worth while weapon category, it should dominate it's respective range

trail carbon
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Yeah, I definitely agree, I just feel like the current melee implementation is not great. Also, melee trades are really bad

unborn smelt
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yeah trading is another big issue for melee

trail carbon
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I think the fact that a wound up heavy attack releases upon death should go away

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There have been many times where I died, but killed the guy afterwards, and I don't have high ping

unborn smelt
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I'm not sure if that's even the root cause of the issue

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something i feel i've seen happen a lot in the past is that melee swings are not hitscan.

trail carbon
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Yeah, I believe it's an actual hitbox attached to your weapon

unborn smelt
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I found it most noticable with out of stamina axe swings, it feels like more than an entire second passes between me clicking my mouse and the swing actually connecting

next yarrow
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You can even do drags and accels with some of the weapons to hit a wider area or hit faster

unborn smelt
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but that makes balancing them much much more difficult

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because all of a sudden you have wonky swing arcs that need to be "balanced" and accounted for

next yarrow
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The main issue is that most of the original 1-slot melees are far too weak to be worth taking

unborn smelt
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and scenarios like players registering a melee attack on the server that hasn't connected with an enemy yet can happen

trail carbon
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Yeah, machete, bat, and saber. May they rest in peace

next yarrow
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The gun attachments don't help either, and certainly spear needs to be changed

unborn smelt
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that then creates kinda the same scenario we see with gun trade tbh

next yarrow
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You should be able to combo saber or machete with a pistol as a 2-slot similar to dual wielding

trail carbon
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Fuck it, just make the spear a three slot weapon, give it 2 or 3 charges and now you have a bomblance competitor

unborn smelt
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if you invalidate such attacks people feel like they get robbed of fair shots (like how bullets in the past got invalidated mid air)

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on the other hand a guy thinking they should win just trading feel bad too

trail carbon
unborn smelt
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And redoing all the swing animations to be better usable is so much work, for an already kinda unpopular weapon class

trail carbon
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If both players are charging a heavy attack, they'll both die unless one of them misses somehow

unborn smelt
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I just want to say again, because reading what i wrote above it's not really clear, i don#t know for a fact this is what happens

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but from hundreds if not over 1k hours of melee gameplay it felt like that to me

trail carbon
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Yeah

unborn smelt
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so still just my guess

trail carbon
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I can't say for 100% certainty that the "spring arm" is a real thing, but I'm pretty confident

unborn smelt
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@cold ledge Afaik the ability to run and throw stuff is part of a perk afaik, not innate to the spear.

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should be part of one of the event perks

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i think it's part of surefooted ?

next yarrow
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No, spear just does that

cold ledge
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you can still run and throw Spears even without Surefoot @unborn smelt, was also the case before the event
my suggestion has more to do with the following reasoning: while I think it's cool to be able to run and throw Spears, allowing it by default makes Spear the obvious choice over Throwing Axes and Throwing Knives
so I believe it would be better to either:

  • allow for all of them to be thrown while running (aside from the event I mean, in general), but adding that functionality through a perk (Assailant is the closest I can think of before of how Tomahawk trait used to work, which is now nested under Assailant)
  • or alternatively, instead of giving that functionality to the Spear just move it to the Throwing Knives. Throwing Knives have always been a suboptimal choice for combat for several reasons, but compared to throwing Spears and Axes nowadays there's little reason to chose Throwing Knives over those, so I think if throwing knives were the only ones that allowed you to run AND throw them, it would help differentiate them a bit more over their bigger cousins (throwing Spear/Axes), so you can either chose: more mobility but less damage (Throwing Knives) or less mobility but more damage (Throwing Axes or Throwing Spears).
carmine needle
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@forest locust and @oblique trench That skin is one of the disabled ones, check #general-announcements for the full list.

unborn smelt
cold ledge
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currently the Spear will continue to be a better choice than a lot of actual Melee Weapons, and making a change like the one I suggested could help solve that issue as well and make the Spear feel a bit more like a 'tool' rather than a straight up replacement for an actual primary or secondary slot melee weapon

unborn smelt
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With multiple people telling me it's indeed true i am inclined to belive it

unborn smelt
cold ledge
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I do think nerfing the attack speed and the damage of the Spear in the current patch was a step in the right direction, if they could also tweak the ability to 'run and throw' I think the Spear would be in a much healthier place overall and would allow other existint melee weapons (and tools as well) to be more conscious choices with their ups and downs

unborn smelt
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but if it can there's no good reasons others shouldn't be capable of that too - or the opposite, if the others can't the spear shouldn't either

cold ledge
# unborn smelt but if it can there's no good reasons others shouldn't be capable of that too - ...

yup, that's pretty much my train of thought, and when thinking about that I realized it actually wouldn't be the worst idea to allow Throwing Knives to have it instead of Spears, based on what they did with Deadeye scopes
Deadeye scopes have always been like the Sniper and Marksman scopes little brother, but they've always been in that middle gray area where they aren't great for scoping and they also aren't great for when you need to take a closer shot
with the August update they allowed players to keep the same speed while looking through Deadeye scopes, meaning they made them feel/work different to provide more mobility, which honestly I think it's a great change

perhaps the same reasoning could be applied to Throwing Knives, because while I agree that either all throwable tools (spear, axes, knives) should allow for running and throwing or none of them, I think there's a case to be made about Throwing Knives always being a tool that has never been a great choice over Axes or Spears, so allowing them more mobility compared to Axes and Spears could help make them feel/work different for those who prefer more mobility, with how little damage they do it probably should be ok to allow them that

unborn smelt
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I get what you mean, and it'd be an option with a good reason for it. i personally just prefer all of it could or couldn't do it

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because i think throwing weapons would need a more thorough rework to be balanced

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as currently the spear is just the most lethal, has the best ballistics and great melee

cold ledge
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yeah I agree with you, and given the choice I would lean towards giving none of them the ability, would make running with an actual melee weapon make more sense rather than with a tool

unborn smelt
cold ledge
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thanks for the civil discussion btw @unborn smelt I rarely post suggestions anymore because there are too many toxic players, I used to suggest a lot of UI and visual related things in the past but well... big discord communities can be a bit negative sometimes

cold ledge
unborn smelt
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The core issue i see with melee weapons being overshadowed is just that the tools and weapon attachments are equally as lethal

trail carbon
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Which I'm not sure if anyone really likes that change very much

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Because they also made world weapons very uncommon

cold ledge
cold ledge
unborn smelt
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Like if you run with a melee weapon you get a loadout with 1 large gun which is great in it's effective range and has it's own ammo pool, and a melee weapon which is good at killing AI and can OHK players in spitting distance.

If i choose a loadout with two guns, i get two guns both effective in their range, and have more total or diverse ammo. Yet i can still get the upside of dealing with AI very well and OHK players in spitting distance by bringing for example a talon weapon

cold ledge
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yeah, tools should be 'utilitarian' more than a 'no brainer' choice in that example you gave, but currently they are a no brainer tool (well, not all, specifically the Spear atm)

trail carbon
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Literally no downside

unborn smelt
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I mean they reduced almost all downsides from all of them reecently

trail carbon
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Yeah

unborn smelt
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none have sway penalties anymore, and melee variants all const just 10$ more than base

trail carbon
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But at the very least with talons you can't kill immolators quickly

unborn smelt
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and they made the attack values match the melee weapons

unborn smelt
trail carbon
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Yeah there's literally no reason not to take them

unborn smelt
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I mean there's still tiny inherent downsides

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such as you can't use a scoped centennial if you bring a traume one for example

trail carbon
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Yeah

unborn smelt
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but that's a tiny downside, and you can stillbring plenty powerfull tools if you so choose instead of a trauma variant

trail carbon
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But they buffed the centennial sights anyway, so it's not hard to sniper with centennial irons anymore

unborn smelt
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but that all plays together into making the dedicated melee weapons an even poorer choice

cold ledge
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yeah, that's kind of the problem when you start making everything too similar, or feel too much like they are all the same: if you remove most of the sway, or make the price so close to the base variant, or give too many weapons too many custom ammo types... all of a sudden every weapon starts to feel like they are the same, or to put it in a different way, they start to feel like there's little to no difference among weapons of the same type (among rifles, among shotguns, etc)

trail carbon
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Yeah, I don't really like the melding of every weapon that seems to be happening

unborn smelt
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I think from the general perspective the changes were good tho

trail carbon
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I think it's because melee is very weird in hunt

unborn smelt
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Most people aren't interested in running melee, and if we ignore the melee category the changes do make sense

trail carbon
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The melee variants felt kind of useless before

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Melee in hunt is kind of all or nothing because shotguns exist

unborn smelt
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because if we ignore dedicated melee weapons, those changes made them much more exciting to play and much more rewarding to take the risk to go for a melee kill with that talon against another double gun loadout

safe urchin
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I love running around with the katanabeeHappy

unborn smelt
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And my theory is that that scenario is what showed in their data the most, hence they took that direction

trail carbon
unborn smelt
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Melee weapons are incredibly fun IMO.

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but i think that's also where it stopps

trail carbon
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Katana is good because it has ridiculous reach

unborn smelt
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Yes hey do what one expects from a melee weapon, they can win games, and they are fun as hecc

trail carbon
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Melee is very fun, until you melee trade for the 3rd time in a row :)

safe urchin
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Guys what if there was a perk to block bullets, too op or what

cold ledge
unborn smelt
#

but looking at a bigger picture, a talon winne also does what one expects from a melee weapon, and also does what a winnie does

trail carbon
safe urchin
#

I think it literally hits your entire screen and some on both sides

#

Real

trail carbon
cold ledge
#

also, Katana should have stayed at medium slot, by moving it to small slot there's pretty much no reason at all to chose a railroad hammer, or a baseball bat... or a machete even

trail carbon
unborn smelt
trail carbon
unborn smelt
#

the Katana is a great feeling melee weapon

cold ledge
#

oh right, I even forgot about the Cavalry Saber, that's how much moving Katana to small slot was a bad idea, made me actually forget the saber existed x_x

thin remnant
#

@hidden knot the timeframe shown is already automatically made into your local time. It shows what time it is for you with a special discord trick thingy idk how to do it but yeah, no need for timezones because it's already shown in your local time.

unborn smelt
#

It feels plenty powerful in melee range, and martialist adds just a bit extra mechanical depth past just heavy and light attack

safe urchin
#

I'm a katana head and i agree that it prob should've stayed 2 slot

#

Cause it forced me to perk into going it with a large one

trail carbon
unborn smelt
#

As a result i think it'd be great if they bring up other melee weapons to Katana level rather than nerf the katana to be as comparatively weak as the rest

cold ledge
# unborn smelt the Katana is a great feeling melee weapon

I do agree that it does feel good to use (and honestly, it should), I just don't particularly like that the Bomb Lance stopped being like the mother of all melee weapons all of a sudden, it's a large slot melee weapon, it should outperform pretty much all other melee weapons if you are going to commit a large slot to it, but there's a strong case to be made about just running Katana + Martialist (granted, requires a perk, but it's not that big of a deal as it only costs 2)

unborn smelt
#

with the steel balls

trail carbon
unborn smelt
safe urchin
thin remnant
trail carbon
thin remnant
unborn smelt
#

being a three slot it's just a bit more melee focused Romero Talon

cold ledge
#

that's the funny part, I'm not even talking about the 'shooting' aspect of the Bomb Lance haha, melee-wise if we compare a bomb lance to a katana with martialist.... honestly, I would take the katana, and bomb lance IS one of my favorite weapons, so it's a bit odd to see a small slot weapon go head to head with it (even without martialist it's a very strong choice instead of a bomb lance as it frees up your large slot for something else)

trail carbon
unborn smelt
#

yeah the Katana is pretty on par with the Bomblance as far as melee goes

safe urchin
#

Guys what if they let every melee weapon get martialist buff

cold ledge
#

Horskin should be reworked a bit honestly, it's one of those perks I never use and rarely feel would have saved me if I had it

unborn smelt
#

but then agian the shooty part is integral to the bomblance

safe urchin
#

Obviously not the unsheath but different gimmicks

unborn sandal
#

The game is unplayable without Salveskin rn. If you touch my Salveskin people are gonna die

trail carbon
#

But

unborn smelt
thin remnant
trail carbon
#

I was livid those few times

thin remnant
unborn smelt
#

but i think that's a lot of work for little payoff from a company perspective

cold ledge
unborn smelt
trail carbon
unborn smelt
#

It's just on the melee part - the large slot has a shooty part

#

I'd agree if the bombalnce was a 3 slot melee only weapon

thin remnant
#

Lance is only really used with steel ball right

unborn smelt
#

but it has a silent shotgun / weirdly ineffective grenadelaucher attached

thin remnant
#

So it's like a chunky Romero talon

trail carbon
thin remnant
#

And silenced

thin remnant
trail carbon
unborn smelt
#

true, i forgot about db

#

waxed is fun, but not super effective IMO

thin remnant
#

..salve skin. :(

trail carbon
#

DB jusg feels bad because I always feel like I would've killed if I had normal ammo

cold ledge
trail carbon
thin remnant
#

Lance always felt like a meme weapon for me

unborn smelt
#

before special ammo on it was a thing the shooty part was irrelevant

thin remnant
trail carbon
trail carbon
thin remnant
trail carbon
unborn smelt
tribal wyvern
#

Dumdum can wallbang?

image.png
thin remnant
unborn smelt
#

What i was thinking about was more along the lines of the waxed frags were pretty weak when i played them.

trail carbon
thin remnant
unborn smelt
#

it's obvious you will charge if you hit, and the charge used to be on a 2 sec fuze IIRC

thin remnant
#

I haven't played hunt in a few weeks or a month or smth

trail carbon
unborn smelt
#

and the reaload takes so long an enemy can heal by the time you load a second charge

trail carbon
#

You'll never kill with them though

unborn smelt
#

on the other hand i liked to play frag arrows a lot on the bow, which only have a 0.5 sec fuze and can be shot much faster for relatively easy kills

trail carbon
#

I get so pissed whenever I hear a frag arrow land next to me

unborn smelt
#

On the bomblance i usually ran steel balls to contest shotguns, and the regular harpoons to blow up AI

unborn smelt
trail carbon
#

Like with the bornheim

unborn smelt
#

still they can be really bad to play against

trail carbon
unborn smelt
#

altho how good they are is really positioning dependant

trail carbon
unborn smelt
#

if you hide in a small room they're very deadly, but the moment you can run to a safe area before bandaging they're not nearly as dangerous anymore

#

from my experience what makes or breaks them is if the second arrow kills or not

trail carbon
#

The way I used/use them is hitting them with a rifle then shot putting one where they run towards

unborn smelt
#

if it doesn't it's an okay harassment tool, but not much more

#

but if the second arrow can enforce a kill it's really damn oppressive

trail carbon
#

You can kill with one arrow if you have hundred hands and hit upper chest full charge

unborn smelt
trail carbon
#

But I guess the normal arrow will too

unborn smelt
#

so i basically never played bow + rifle

#

it was usually bow + axe or hammer

trail carbon
#

Fun fact, I play mostly pistol

unborn smelt
#

so for the most part the bow was my long range

trail carbon
#

So, I know I'm odd for this, but I'm better at range with a pistol than a rifle, so I actually often use pistols at range, so I kind of get having the bow for long range

unborn smelt
#

nothing wrong with that, i enjoyed playing pistols a lot too

trail carbon
#

My best weapon is the LeMat

unborn smelt
#

something i always wished melee weapons would do is increase the amount of ammo your other weapon carries

trail carbon
#

That little pinprick sight on the top is really nice

unborn smelt
#

i really enjoyed playing sabre + pax, or smth similar

trail carbon
trail carbon
unborn smelt
#

but having a melee and then a pistol with just 12 spare was just pain with all enemies running long ammo rifles or shotgun + uppercut

trail carbon
chrome oyster
#

@clear dome try changing your VRAM target to 70% if you haven't already. Nvidia did various folks dirty with their VRAM stinginess

unborn smelt
#

if having a sabre equipped would have given the single pax 6-12 more spare for would have made the loadout much more fun

trail carbon
unborn smelt
#

and since ammo stacking with secondaries was a thing anyways it wouldn't have been OP either i think

#

even if applied to a primary weapon.

trail carbon
#

I still think pistol ammo should be separated from rifle ammo

unborn smelt
#

the worst that could have happened would have been something like extra ammo on a long ammo rifle, but then they could have just made it scale with ammo type

trail carbon
unborn smelt
trail carbon
#

I just hate long ammo

#

Unapologetically

unborn smelt
#

that uppercut damage nerf has made the Meta much more bearable for me

trail carbon
#

People are spamming the dolch again in my games and it's really annoying

unborn smelt
#

i never had huge issues with the Dolch personally so i don't mind it, but i get it if people are annoyed by that

trail carbon
#

It just fires so fast

unborn smelt
#

i mean yeah, but so does the officer or the new army

trail carbon
#

You get headshot by the fourth shot before you can take a second shot

unborn smelt
#

and the Dolch is just so damn expensive for not that much more power over a new army or officer

trail carbon
#

The issue is it's medium ammo, so it jas much more range, and two taps really easily

unborn smelt
#

it two taps more easily, but pistol medium ammo still isn't good as far as range goes

#

just a bit better than compact

trail carbon
#

I dunno, it just feels really opressive

#

Like, the officer and new army aren't clean in my eyes either

#

But good lord the dolch annoys me so much

#

Especially with dumdum rounds

#

Dumdum dolch is ridiculous

unborn smelt
#

I personally am not a fan of how many weapons have dum dum and incendiary ammo

median zephyr
#

youre forgetting that dolch has fmj, and fires nearly 2x as fast as officer, and price doesnt matter for way too many players

#

you die in 0.3 seconds, even if you take cover which is hard, to even body shots

unborn smelt
#

like dolch or not, i don't enjoy those two ammo types a lot

hot vigil
trail carbon
hot vigil
#

Without FMJ it is 43m

unborn smelt
#

and an officer

trail carbon
#

And with dumdum, you die at a similar range because of the bleed

unborn smelt
#

i don't know off the top of my head

trail carbon
#

Officer is alright I think

#

Both under 40m for sure though

unborn smelt
median zephyr
hot vigil
unborn smelt
#

both are compact pistol ammo and the new army has more dmg

#

new army has the same 97 dmg the dolch has

trail carbon
#

Ah right it's the muzzle velocity on that weapon that sucks, not the damage

median zephyr
trail carbon
#

Had them mixed up

unborn smelt
hot vigil
#

New Army is in a better spot with the new damage retention for sure.

unborn smelt
#

compared to the ~100 of the other two

median zephyr
#

if youre putting fmj anyway it doesnt matter, and yes its overpriced, but price doesnt mean its "balanced" or fun to fight

trail carbon
median zephyr
#

way too many people can afford mosin dolch every match, which is crazy

hot vigil
median zephyr
#

it should be final factor, like lebel being cheaper then mosin, not "this is busted make it 1k"

unborn smelt
trail carbon
hot vigil
#

Like if we made a gun that dealt 250 damage to upper-chest, but costed 5000 HD it still wouldn't feel great to die to said weapon.

unborn smelt
median zephyr
unborn smelt
#

i'm saying people tend to mix up something being OP and frustrating to go up against

median zephyr
hot vigil
unborn smelt
trail carbon
median zephyr
unborn smelt
#

the games balance has to be done for the amority of players, but in the past crytek has said again and again, the majority of players do care about the cost and are detered by costs

median zephyr
unborn smelt
#

Now i'm not saying that they shouldn't touch the Dolch because of that - but they propably shouldn't just nerf it, they propably need to rethink it as a whole

trail carbon
unborn smelt
#

bring it closer to the powerlevel of the high tier pistols, but also drop the price accordingly

trail carbon
#

I have too much money to think about it

trail carbon
#

Me and the homies spit on the uppercut's grave

unborn smelt
median zephyr
#

which id be much more ok with

trail carbon
unborn smelt
#

it just resurfaces now since the uppercut has been dethroned after years

trail carbon
hot vigil
unborn smelt
#

So what they could think about is reducing the magazine size. Real one had 10 rounds, but this iss in lore a prototype, give it just 7 or 8

median zephyr
#

its never been dead, people just went "this one shots to body, 2 taps arms, and stacks my long ammo, and is way cheaper" its was prefereed, but the dolch wasnt bad by any measure

trail carbon
unborn smelt
#

remove that goofy looking clip reload

#

when they lsowed it down it just started looking like the dudes hesitating loading the gun with the forced delay

median zephyr
unborn smelt
#

The recoil is already through the roof compared to the rest

#

maybe add more downside to the special ammo, or take away the special ammo

trail carbon
median zephyr
#

even though its fast firing, the reciol isnt much at all, it goes down fast enough to utilize its full ROF

unborn smelt
#

simply because we're in an aera where weapons just shot slow

median zephyr
#

the problem is it shoots so fast, fmj only makes this issue way way worse, but even no fmj its still not fun

hot vigil
#

This is a good example of why Dolch is broken, this 2v1 is purely won by the sheer amount of bullets I send down lane against my opponents.

trail carbon
unborn smelt
median zephyr
#

you def got dolch value there thats all ill say, if you hit your shots theyd have both been dead in 0.33-0.66 seconds

unborn smelt
#

for a fraction of the cost

median zephyr
#

not consistantly no

unborn smelt
#

no not quite as consistently, but consistent enough

median zephyr
#

this is fully accurate, and fully in your control, which is why its significantly better

trail carbon
unborn smelt
#

were in basically barrel stuffing distance and thats a 2 slot dolch

median zephyr
#

this fight 100% would have been lost with officer, fired too many bullets

#

but again, you did have time to kill with officer to body shots if you hit them

unborn smelt
#

No two 2 slot dolches even

hot vigil
median zephyr
#

i mean last guy just missed, you both did a lot of missing

#

but the dolch helped pick up the slack from the misses

unborn smelt
median zephyr
#

its not that absolutely nothing comes close to the dolch, its just that it can make bad players much better, and good players disgusting more then any other weapon basically

unborn smelt
#

dude paid about what 800$ per dolch

median zephyr
unborn smelt
#

And with that i just disagree

#

i think that would have been a perfectly doable fight with just a bunch of 100$ pistols at nearly the same power

median zephyr
#

but officer or new army? 0%

unborn smelt
#

getting overall a decent bit better guns at a 600% markup is perfevtly fine powerlevel wise

#

in my opinion

median zephyr
#

yes, more expensive guns should be better, but having it be SIGNIFICANTLY better, but overpriced, is not good balance

unborn smelt
hot vigil
median zephyr
#

it fires nearly 2x as quick, holds tons of ammo in it, has fmj to pen everything, you cant peak this monster unless you abuse ping, hit headhhots, or theyre bad

unborn smelt
#

IMO yes, that is still good balance, it's just not very fun to go up against

hot vigil
unborn smelt
median zephyr
#

those are gross clips

hot vigil
median zephyr
bitter frost
#

The biggest thing right now i feel is that they need to remove fmj and bleed rounds from Dolch. Lets at least start there

median zephyr
#

dolch should be better then officer yes, but its too much better, still not "worth" the price increase, but people ignore prices anyway

median zephyr
unborn smelt
#

seeing as it's very expensive it has comparatively little tradeoffs tho

bitter frost
median zephyr
unborn smelt
#

those are two very diffrent things.

median zephyr
#

now obv this is not super far away, but it dominates close range besides one shots, but is damn near close to it

median zephyr
unborn smelt
#

What the dolch needs IMOP is not a Nerf, it's a "redesign" to bring it in line with other high end weapons

hot vigil
unborn smelt
#

that includes a nerf to core characteristics, but also not costing an arm and a leg

median zephyr
#

thatd just be a nerf, but i agree

#

if its a better officer, but not too much better, shooting in about 0.5 seconds, no fmj, but being medium ammo, that wouldnt be so bad

unborn smelt
#

IMO just a nerf would be keep the 700$ price tag and reduce stats

#

That#d be a nerf because it just makes it worse for the same investment

median zephyr
#

they really dont like changing prices, uppercut is still 400, but i agree things should go down, esp thing that are overpriced just bc theyre not balanced

#

i dont think anyone would be mad if the dolch was balanced and it got a fair price, still would be a nerf though no matter its price, bc price is the least important factor

unborn smelt
#

on the other hand reducing the price to around 400, but taking away a third or nearly half the magazine, and maybe even custom ammo, would indeed make it worse, but also drastically reduce the investment

median zephyr
#

i dont think thatd be enough, but i wouldnt mind it going down once its balanced

#

like uppercut rn should go down, its still great, but is not worth the price

unborn smelt
#

Like if the Dolch just had 7 rounds, to match the officer it'd be much less forgiving on missed shots, but more impotantly not much more than it#s closest competitors

#

that'd be a big step in the right direction

#

not sure about the damage breakpoints anymore, but maybe put it below the new army and above the officer if that actually does anything to the dmg breakpoints

median zephyr
#

i think youre targeting the wrong thing, the reason the dolch is so good is not bc it has 10 shots loaded, its its fast rof and pen/dmg with fmj, it need to be much closer to officer though

unborn smelt
#

The Rof is not that much faster than the other two.
Officer and New Army have a 0.5s cycle time and the Dolch 0.4.

median zephyr
#

the dolch is not 0.4 store stat isnt correct

#

its 0.33, thats significantly faster

unborn smelt
#

It is faster, but even at just 400$ it'd still be 300% more expensive then the other two

median zephyr
#

yes, but thatd be increadibly worth it, since people are already buying the crazy overpriced version

unborn smelt
median zephyr
unborn smelt
median zephyr
#

i mean cycle time, but both are wrong

unborn smelt
#

if that's true, they should propably go and get that fixed so they take the right values for balancing

median zephyr
#

ive always been for correct store stats, i was one of the people who was asking for accurate shotgun crosshairs for years (which we finally have)

#

but we already know the balancing, itd just help players who dont test themselves/ watch in depth testing to understand guns more

unborn smelt
#

They have corrected them in the past

#

so i'm a bit hesitant to believe they are wrong without proof

median zephyr
#

they have yes, but it baffles me how even through the new launch, the stats are still wrong

unborn smelt
#

i don't want to rule it out either tho

median zephyr
#

i mean you just gotta video editing test it, look up videos of people testing it, i didnt keep it myself

#

i have the cycle time of most guns in the game on a sheet, that i tested myself and cross referenced with other peoples videos, its good to know the actual cycle time then the often confusing how they even got store page one

unborn smelt
median zephyr
#

obv id watch it, and try to shoot it in game and see if its noticable, but off the top of my head i dont remember a dolch cycle nerf, dont quote me on that though

unborn smelt
#

i couldn't even find an old one tbh, altho i did not further look into vid that said 3 years old

median zephyr
#

this always sucks, i wish i posted mine the community needs more resources

#

youd think SOMEONE whouldve went "all guns in game cycle time" even if its old dolch was in since the start

unborn smelt
#

I the past lots of people did that until they corrected the stats

#

since they included reload time in RoF which is useless for gameplay

#

and since some perks affect Rof

median zephyr
#

for sure, im glad we have the cycle time stat, i just cant believe they get it wrong

#

like, they have the code, i simply dont get why we ever have incorrect store stats, it drives me up a wall

#

bc then you get players who trust the store stats, and i get why they do, but theyre operating under false assumptions

unborn smelt
#

That's exactly why i'm so hesitant to believe they are wrong

median zephyr
#

i mean youve seen they have precidence of needing to fix the store stats, i think that shows this isnt outlandish

unborn smelt
#

obviously since they had them wrong in the past i don't rule it out, but they did have lots of negative feedback regarding it and changed it once so them doing it again seems off to me

median zephyr
#

the thing is its not again, they never fixed it to begin with

#

they fixed some, but left others

#

i wish they just did a pass and went, we are 100% sure this is the cycle time, we have seperated stats to show (normal ads, iron eye, hipfire) etc, and its all 100% correct

#

but some cycle times, like i believe the lebel, isnt correct for its ADS or iron eye cycle time, which confuses me

unborn smelt
#

we only have one cycle time stat, and iron eye makes the gun shoot faster

median zephyr
#

yes 100% im not saying this is wrong, but being wrong on both accounts is one gets me

unborn smelt
#

Ah i see what you mean

median zephyr
#

like if all guns were its highest rof, say all iron eye applicable, thatd be ok

#

id still like to see non iron eye but its at least accurate in some reguard

#

this is not me saying every single cycle time stat is fully wrong, im just saying since some are wrong, you cant trust any of them bc you never know if yours is correct or not

unborn smelt
#

well i very much agree that a definitive stat would be good.
That however doesn't change my original point regarding the dolch.

Axe the ammo count a good bit, maybe reduce the dmg, potentially take away the special ammo, but also drop the price to a more bearable level and it'd be less frustrating to play against and more in line with other high end gear

#

however one thing they can't really change is the hatred people have developed to the Dolch over time, so there will always be irrationally much hate towards it.

median zephyr
#

youd be right that it needs a nerf and price reduction, i agree with the custom ammo change, but id honesly leave dmg where it is, and nerf cycle time to be officery, this would solidify it as a higher pen, more dmg officer, and would easily be better, while being more expensive

fading dirge
#

"will not default to favorites selected" broke defaulting to favorite on the only screen it worked on before, for traits lol

median zephyr
#

for sure, but people hate things they dont understand all the time, people on here think something like dualies are op, which is just funny to me

#

bc people often conflate "op" with "unfun"

unborn smelt
#

maybe taking ammo alone is enough

median zephyr
unborn smelt
#

What's important for feeling fair and fun, is to reduce the perceived delta in powerlevel to other options

unborn smelt
#

so a bit of spammability should stay, it just doesn't need to be around 50% more mag size than the other options

#

and the closest competitors have a 6/7 round drum respectively

#

the broheim is much less lethal but has a very quick 5 round internal clip reload

median zephyr
tawny prawn
median zephyr
unborn smelt
#

yeah rn it's too significant to be fun to go up against

median zephyr
#

and obv a price decrease

unborn smelt
#

i 100% agree

median zephyr
#

i feel like we agree, we just say it differently

unborn smelt
#

i personally just grew a bit tired of people calling for just nerfs to something that needs a rework instead of a nerf

#

that potentially leads to kneejerk reactions that nerf stuff into oblivion where it gets forgotten

#

kinda like the flashbomb, or poison handcrossbow

median zephyr
#

i understand this, but i wasnt calling for just a number nerf, i dont want it to be irrelevant, just a high tier rof pistol, not way way way above the rest

#

a lot of the problem childs of hunt need a rework, like the avto, its never fun to die to, even if its not op or meta

tawny prawn
#

bornheim is pretty broken too compared to dolch

#

its too easy to just fire off headshot spam and end up killing someone with the same ease of running dolch and two tapping to body

unborn smelt
median zephyr
#

fair enough, a lot of people on here dont argue with knowlege or good faith, i get it

unborn smelt
tawny prawn
#

the problem is that its less fishing so much as youre just clicking as fast as possible and it results into a headshot kill

median zephyr
#

for sure, but any weapon with a fast rof can feel low skill, idk how youd fix this tbh

tawny prawn
#

bornheims just waaay too competitive in spam compared to dolch. dolch might better with fmj wallbangs and overall two tap distance but its almost as good while cheap as hell

unborn smelt
#

I mean that's fishing for headshots, isn't it

tawny prawn
#

fishing is slow and calculated

#

youre just going ham on your LMB

median zephyr
#

i dont think fishing is slow, its just that when people are shot at they go "they arent even aiming" but often people are

unborn smelt
#

just firing off quick shots, you know won't do much if they don't hit the head, but hoping to land that important HS

tawny prawn
#

it works on bodyshotting too, might need more shots but its just as easy

unborn smelt
#

that was a big isse in the past when hunt first had infinite HS ranges

tawny prawn
#

these guys literally cant react in time to bornheim, levering is almost as good as what bornie can do there at those ranges

unborn smelt
#

altho bullet drop has kept it from getting as bad as it used to be

tawny prawn
#

no skill, no effort, slightly better speed than if i was using dolch

tawny prawn
median zephyr
#

well yea, but thats not low skill, they aimed and hit all their shots

tawny prawn
#

theyre getting hs by guns like my bornie

median zephyr
tawny prawn
median zephyr
tawny prawn
#

let me rephrase, long ammo struggles against faster shooting guns at 100m

median zephyr
#

and 2 taps to the body, it does just fine at 100

unborn smelt
tawny prawn
#

it feels good tapping out long ammo with just some spam

unborn smelt
#

i was thinking back to early access, Winnie + machete meta

median zephyr
unborn smelt
tawny prawn
#

bornheim used to have almost zero recoil when spamming it, which means it was a free headshot if you just shot fast, good times

#

now theres slight recoil which takes a bit more effort

unborn smelt
#

Long ammo is the most consistent with bodytaps at that range

median zephyr
#

bornheim was at game start in 1.0 just checked

tawny prawn
#

wonder how they found out it was broken, hope i didnt help that somehow, barely anyone used it properly

unborn smelt
#

and the majority of the community, even with high ROF weapons, is not precise enough to just click heads at that range

#

this can very much be an issue specific to a certain MMR range, propably on the higher end

tawny prawn
#

balancing based on the avg skill level feels rough though

median zephyr
#

nobody is, because the bullet speed and drop make it a bit rougher, its not hitscan

tawny prawn
#

in the higher end, its fine, most of the vets there rarely use high rof guns that efficiently

median zephyr
#

good players can be scary, but most people prefer simple long ammo, bc its faster and can do body taps

tawny prawn
#

but to anyone who actually uses it, bornheim spam at 100m is cracked out of its mind

tawny prawn
#

but all of a sudden, you got some crackhead that knows how to use high rof, and they get rolled without a chance

#

just because most people cant or dont use it doesnt mean it aint broken to some degree

median zephyr
#

not as easy as body shots with long ammo though, easier to hit body then head

tawny prawn
#

same for levering, you dont see good levering videos out there even in the new update but its better than people can show it off

tawny prawn
median zephyr
#

because its rng, good players would rather a dolch/ high rof gun thats accurate

unborn smelt
tawny prawn
unborn smelt
#

Doesn't mean levering is bad, nor that it can't give people insanely lucky shots that feel super broken on the receiving end

median zephyr
#

levering is good, but 100% accurate shots with good players are better

tawny prawn
#

nah its straight up broken because its so effective in close range, not because people spam it outside effective range

unborn smelt
tawny prawn
#

the high rof and guaranteed hit is jsut huge pressure

tawny prawn
#

couldve been 25m, i dont remember

unborn smelt
#

and even then the RNG can make you hit unfavorable hitzones, like arms or legs for poor damage

tawny prawn
#

maybe itd be that bad with old levering since it had actual recoil so people struggled in waiting, but its way too easy now

median zephyr
#

yea esp winnie, which cant do arm 2 taps

#

like in this scenario, 20m, youre better off with dolch

unborn smelt
#

yes it's a good option to fall back to, but but aiming gets more reliable at some point

tawny prawn
#

are you? levering is a 3 point perk on a gun thats way cheaper

median zephyr
#

now yes winnie is way easier

tawny prawn
#

aimings more reliable at distance, so you aim at distance

#

in most compound fights? levering fmj is a monster

median zephyr
#

cheapness doesnt affect in game preformance

unborn smelt
median zephyr
#

you use your main gun for distance

unborn smelt
#

or an officer since we're speaking sub 20m

median zephyr
#

if you want high rof, drilling, cyclone, maybe officer carbine too

unborn smelt
#

same thing

median zephyr
#

sure maybe winnie does range AND close, but you can use multiple weapon slots and be a monster in both

unborn smelt
#

it's not quite as fast as levering, but assuming your aim is good, you can ensure a 2 tap

tawny prawn
#

all fast guns got a two tap, its just levering that gives you insane consistency for barely any investment on an already strong gun for aiming though

unborn smelt
#

so the tradeoff is do you trust your aim to ensure a quick 2 tap, or do you want to trust RNG to maybe 2 tap even faster, or potentially need 3+ shots

tawny prawn
#

you got a sidearm you can run with anything now, sure you can bring those semi autos to perform well in the same situation but its less efficient than something like all purpose winnie

median zephyr
#

efficient in what way? yes money, but winnie is not a high tier gun in any range

tawny prawn
#

main difference would probably be longer distances with the two tap on other guns

tawny prawn
median zephyr
#

its fine at everything with levering

unborn smelt
tawny prawn
#

winnies always been top tier

median zephyr
#

im just gonna agree to disagree, its never been top tier out of beta

#

or 1.0*

unborn smelt
#

so really you're comparing winnie + levering and free secondary slot, vs fast Rof pistol + free long weapon slot

tawny prawn
#

oh jeez, i was also thinking about infinite hs range here

#

i dont factor in long ammo bodyshots anymore, my b

unborn smelt
#

for example i'd rather take a Krag + an officer, over Winnie levering + any other pistol.

#

neither are wrong loadouts, just a diffrent focus

median zephyr
#

now winnie loadout is way cheaper, nice budget

tawny prawn
#

much more consistent in longer distances

#

im mostly factoring in headshots at distance so i just forgot long ammo existed

unborn smelt
#

A winnie headclicker loadout is also very powerful, no denying that

#

especially with the new headshots

median zephyr
#

depends how far, at 100 long doesnt drop much, but if youre 180+ sniping winnie can do some work

unborn smelt
#

Winnie is great on almost all ranges

#

but only with the headshots

median zephyr
#

just bc it doesnt drop much, but its velocity never reaches the high end

#

or very high end

tawny prawn
#

yeah, the skillcap makes it less worthwhile if you just want to be consistent

unborn smelt
#

and ofc when someone argues only headshots matter they have a point for that specific scenario.

#

but for the vast majority of players, "headshots only" doesn't work

#

the games past has shown that time and time again

median zephyr
#

even with headshots, velocity helps with having longer "instant" hit ranges, but winnie def isnt bad at it

tawny prawn
#

i getcha

#

but hear me out, skill level also means they can barely use dolch p properly

#

so an easier gun to spam with, like the bornheim, technically performs better on average

unborn smelt
#

people argues headshots are the only thing that matters so spitzer must be the new Meta, they said the cent will dethrone long ammo, etc.

#

but that never really happened

median zephyr
#

obv in game preformance not moeny

unborn smelt
tawny prawn
unborn smelt
#

that's what the devs emphasized when they showed stats for the Dolch nerf

tawny prawn
#

the issue with bornheim is that they use it like an officer, they click and aim click and aim

#

thats not the most efficient way to use the gun, where you just spam as fast as possible and its suddenly extremely effective without much thinking

median zephyr
unborn smelt
#

The devs actually showed that the Dolch was barely used up to 4 stars MMR, and wasn't overly deadly in the very top of 6 star MMR (where people hit heads most reliably)

median zephyr
#

just bc people were using uppercut and low stars cant afford it

tawny prawn
#

in the nicest way possible, dolch in 6 star has been a lot of misses and theyre relying on you to get pressured and die in their last 4 shots

#

lol

median zephyr
#

stats cant really show the whole picture

unborn smelt
#

at that point in time statistically, the dolch was only a Problem, in the 5+ low 5* brackets of MMR

tawny prawn
#

its less guys being better at other guns but with people not being able to use dolch even in 6 star, its just a spam and hope they die at the end of your mag for them

#

at least, thats the case right after the dolch nerf to about now where all the long ammo dolch guys suddenly started failing

#

i dont remember when they showed the dolch stats there

unborn smelt
#

They spoke about them in the Devstream for update 1.6 IIRc

#

which is when the "big" Dolch nerfs happened

tawny prawn
#

ah this was when they nerfed the op bornheim

#

man, i wish i got more practice in before they gave it that slight recoil, lol

unborn smelt
#

they specifically talked about some stats to show people that their own experiences are not necessarily indicative of the actual statistics.

#

because at that time people claimed outlandish high playrates for the Dolch, but it turned out it only had a playrate of 4% across the board, while the Uppercut reached up to over 50% playrate in the high 5 lower 6* brackets where the Doclh was an actuall issue in the statistics

tawny prawn
#

probably just more caught up in bad dolch deaths, poor guys

unborn smelt
#

one can't really fault the players tbh

#

a player will always have a very limited view heavily influenced by his own likes and dislikes

#

that heavily skews perception of things, which i entirely natural

tawny prawn
#

my bias is that 6 star has very few dolch players ever managing to use it effectively

unborn smelt
#

Same happens when most content creators talk about balance

tawny prawn
#

but levering has definitely gotten some nasty kills on me out in 6 star, since its an easier panic button

unborn smelt
#

if you play the game for a living you're kinda limited to the stuff you see happen in the top MMR

unborn smelt
#

and the Winnie makes for a great loadout even at top tier play

#

but i still think control is preferable over RNG so levering is a great tool, but not broken or OP

tawny prawn
#

it feels like massive control up close though, just by virtue of spam

#

rng feels more like a range limiter, so it fails at 30m where a dolch is suddenly better if you can aim

#

wait, you already made this point, im p sure

unborn smelt
#

I think bot fanning and levering are amazing, beause neither technically removes the option to aim (like dualies does) so they're always a nice panic button, either for when you panic or to induce panic in an enemy

tawny prawn
#

i dont even know what we're discussing right now

#

uhhh, with the ease of use of other spam options, dolch doesnt feel that bad when considering skill level?

unborn smelt
#

it started when we were arguing about levering being kinda broken

#

i disagrees, i think it's good, but a spammable weapon you can aim while spamming (like an officer) is more reliable

#

while levering has potentially better TTK, but also potentially worse TTK, entirely dependant on the RNG

tawny prawn
#

mm, well im still biased here, the dolch should have objectively better stats but people struggle in running it more than the other spam guns so im kinda looking down on it

#

theoretically its got the 40m two tap, but people are spamming it in ranges much closer than that where officer, bornheim, and levering all perform about equal if not better

#

if youre fishing for headshots with it at distance, its only really good with the ammo count, i guess?

#

actually thats probably one of the main skill issues in hunt, people dont properly distance

#

they usually get too close or they rat at a certain range and get fucked if someones smart enough to push or back up

unborn smelt
#

the Dolch is a noticable improovement over the officer or new army in nearly all aspects

#

i personally just don't think the improovement is worth costing seven times the money

#

but i also think it's important to acknowlege people don't enjoy fighting a Dolch so reducing it's power and also the price to not have it be that much better than other high end weapons and hopefully thus not as frustrating to fight is propably good for the game in the long run

tawny prawn
#

kinda nasty spot to be in

#

less recoil means its way too easy spam, less mag and its a joke

unborn smelt
#

i personally think less mag is the way to go, means people need to be more precise

tawny prawn
#

all i see are people missing so thatd be a good way to punish them, just feels weird to not have 10 rounds in a mauser

unborn smelt
#

It does feel weird, but to be fair the lore states this is a prototype

#

so that could easily explain it

tawny prawn
#

there was a type that had a 6 round internal

unborn smelt
#

another thing worth a try could be removing the clip reload but keeping the 10 rounds

#

also weird for a Mauser, but would mean lots of downtime between them being able to spam 10 rounds

tawny prawn
#

im mostly worried about ease of use again if they touch the recoil

unborn smelt
#

same, i wouldn't touch that

tawny prawn
#

lowered ammo, fine, but if they decide to buff the recoil, itd become too easy to use even with

#

no stripper would work too, punish the ones that run out of spam, i think thatd be the easiest soft option

unborn smelt
#

there's many ways they could take it, and now that they've dethroned the uppercut it's propably worth taking a look at the dolch again

#

I don't want to get the uppercut back on the throne tbh, but the Dolch is a bit out of line now that the uppercut isn't as powerful anymore

tawny prawn
#

shit, id be fine with dolch staying how it is since its basically a free kill around 6 star

#

wish i knew how it felt outside there

flat sandal
#

#feedback message is that anyone else's experience? Just had the first two bayou maps and it looks freaking awesome imo and for me at least it plays really well

#

both, night and day

#

it looks way different, right?

flat sandal
#

@agile fractal I was also confused. the favorites are shown first now. For traits it's not really good but for equipment and hunters it is

umbral quail
errant bronze
#

Impresses me that Crytek did'nt tested this upgrade in any range of pc hardware at all before launch. My Rx6600 was able to run it on ultra 75 fps before and now i cant play even on medium without random massive fps drops and ilumination flicks.

umbral quail
#

Also the burning speed is garbage.

mossy torrent
#

How is it possible to fuck up every update, I've got nothing but Mammon's Gulch all evening! It's a nice map, but I'm sick of it after a month with nothing else.

errant bronze
#

Total disaster, and too much time between updates.

#

C'mon, one fkcng month after the "big release" and only the game breaking bugs are "partialy fixed"

#

but the performance and visual glitches still ongoing just like it's day 1

inner tulip
mint star
#

Weren't we supposed to get the ui update for the loadout menu? So we can do it all on one screen?

errant bronze
inner tulip
vast birch
#

i havent even been able t play some error code shows

median zephyr
#

id look up what it is, and at minimum reverify your game/ check your firewall to make sure it didnt block hunt

vast birch
#

thanks

#

apperently servers are too full is reason why

median zephyr
#

ah, thatll do it!

manic burrow
#

#feedback message While I choose not to use charms because they’re distracting, you’re wrong that no one asked for this. I’ve seen several people ask for this change on discord since Mammon’s was released

manic burrow
empty oasis
#

@arctic flame Your post "Title : Fix bug before you release patch" has been removed as it was feedback. If you'd like to leave game feedback please do so in the #feedback channel

#

@lofty quarry Your post "Title: FIX THE SYNCHRONIZATION:" has been removed as it was feedback. If you'd like to leave game feedback please do so in the #feedback channel

inner quiver
#

@unborn dew look at the bottom left part of your screenshot. Would be nice to have it be consistent though

flat sandal
#

to me the bayou feels completely changed and being back you also really see the impact the upgrade has had. It's like having a new pair of eyes. Things seem clearer, less grey and less weird artefacts.

#

the foliage is way different, there are now bits and bobs everywhere and quite a lot of map changes

#

the water looks insane as well

#

I mean, I don't mean to be positive here 😄 the ui is horrendous and all but you have to give credit where credit is due. Hands down the best maps anywhere imo. It's actually crazy how good they are

calm sinew
#

can these options not go back to default when we log back in the game? is there a reason for that?

image.png
flat sandal
#

nope

#

everything is just stuck somewhere between PC and console UI and nothing is finished

#

btw, check out the corn fields^^ when you are about to bend one plant, it doesn't change position slightly anymore 🥹

tribal wyvern
#

@pearl summit Exact reason why it was changed. People had easy games farming over and over, and aslong as they died every now and then, they never went up in rank. As dying to lower mmr & killing lower mmr, kept you there forever.

The quantity was not enough to compensate for the skill difference.

#

Now you face your own skill, makes hell of alot more sense.

pearl summit
unborn dagger
#

What is it with devs just not letting the filters that we choose stay? Regardless if we quit out of the game or not?

tribal wyvern
#

Solo is & was always meant to be much more difficult than 2v2 or 3v3.
You decide to go in without teammates

#

Why should you face easier opponents??
You're already getting higher reward

#

Solo should be in a disadvantage, thats the whole point of getting more rewards

tardy stream
#

so i dont know but i had that more often than i would like it too get jumped outside from a spider that despawns after jumping on you is scary af

signal mural
#

@weary fox The new burn speed definitely helps end stalemates quicker. It has however almost entirely made chokes irrelevant unless your downed teammates took Salveskin. I think there needs to be a middle ground or grades of fire/burn rate.

pearl radish
#

why on earth are favourites listed first in traits when sorting by price? seroiusly clueless

pearl radish
tribal wyvern
#

With such fast burning & so many ways to burn.
What if burning couldn't remove bars. If you got revived, you only lose the bar you lost when you died.
But if you burn up entirely, it works as normal.

So it's either perm death or losing nothing. Buys you a little more time, makes it feel alot less shit when you get revivied with only 75hp rather than 125.
And theres still pressure for the guy to act fast.

weary fox
# signal mural <@535036767091556352> The new burn speed definitely helps end stalemates quicker...

imo it helps and doesnt help with the whole stalement situation. It promotes people to play slower just by existing because people know, if they die and burn, its game over until a bounty comes around. It'll probably make some hunters think that, if they dont want to burn, they need to prevent dying. If they want to prevent dying, they will play EVEN more slower and carefully. Ive seen more and more hunters just camp outside or inside certain buildings, refusing to move because if they do and go down, tits just an instant burn.

weary fox
carmine needle
tribal wyvern
#

Right now theres like 0 effort to burn, 0 skill or sacrifice needed.
Needing to babysit the body is the least it should require you to.

#

Besides you babysit it for barely a minute.

weary fox
viscid ice
#

when will crytek fix the region lock? its kinda annoying to have 3-4 teams almost every game that is asian players.

manic burrow
#

Honestly i kind of miss looking for lanterns to burn people. It did make burning someone feel more intentional and earned

signal mural
#

I put up a suggest for burn meta balancing. Check it out and let me know your ideas/opinions.

manic burrow
#

#game-ideas message I’d be down with this. I’m unsure how I feel about the intense effect as you suggested, but I’m not outright against it. The other effect of your burn rate acceleration is that it gives more reason to mix in some big health bars too (in absence of salve skin). Bigs would stay at the lower burn rates for a longer time, and couldn’t accelerate as many times

signal mural
# manic burrow https://discord.com/channels/350201607788429323/524577494863708180/1286299112068...

Exactly. But most players take a small bar at the beginning of the bar which they means would have a small secondary bar and the burn would quickly intensify but as most players burn with flares/fuses it's not so punishing. Overall my suggestion calls for the burn rate to be decreased by 25%.

I think a lot of the burn rate stuff started because of Solo Necromancer's previous iteration. Now that that's fixed and Necromancer grants a full restoration for Solos the entire subject of burn rate is damn near irrelevant for them - they barely even need to take Salveskin anymore and Resilience is unnecessary for them too. Solo got two trait slot freed up.

rotund obsidian
#

I understand the reasoning behind a lot of your proposed changes but why on earth should hellfires be the strongest body burning tool? They're already a reasonably strong throwable, and they already dwarf firebombs in terms of utility and offensive capability. They're meant to cause a big fiery explosion, not sustained burning over time. Also instaburning a bar on a downed hunter would be busted, imagine your teammate going down and immediately getting pelted with like five hellfires and they're redskulled in like five seconds

#

If anything, hellfires should burn weaker than regular firebombs since the fire they spawn on the ground only persists for around ten seconds.

hot vigil
#

One thing I don't understand is why people wanna insist on having this many burn options?
Even pre-flare/fuse/dragonsbreath the "insta-burn" talk was already a thing.
Why give so many tools to enable that?

signal mural
#

Well, I don't think hitting a downed enemy multiple times should stack the effects - regardless of the method. IE: If they are lit on fire with a flare and someone else hits them with a hellfire the rate doesn't increase nor do they lose an health chunk. It might sound illogical but that just opens the door to abusing the system. If you're going to use a Hellfire to burn an enemy (rather than sweep a room with intense fire) then it should have an impact that differs from the regular Molotovs. The mollies have a AoE and audio-hindering effect so they are already very strong that Hellfire's 1x burst feels otherwise a big underpowered.

hot vigil
signal mural
hot vigil
knotty bear
#

my new short win silencer skin has old iron sight 😦

image.png
knotty bear
flat sandal
#

@wispy lion sure, why not? 😄

#

but for real, with all electric lights on on stillwater...

wispy lion
sand kiln
#

@flint dirge Your post has been deleted due to "trolling". Please follow the guidelines pinned in #game-ideas when using the channel.

crystal plume
#

@wild spire Is this a bit or have you actually been here since 2021 and not seen the rotjaw once?

wild spire
#

Rotjaw?

crystal plume
wild spire
#

Wow that was fast, I just posted that

#

I lovbe this game

flint dirge
sand kiln
#

Please keep the suggestions channel serious by following the guidelines.

rotund obsidian
loud hamlet
rotund obsidian
#

yeah they added it with the start of the current event

#

it even shows the distance to your teammate's pings while you're zoomed in on the spyglass, for some reason

maiden bone
#

Any news on missing DLC hunters?

median zephyr
median zephyr
rotund obsidian
#

I dunno, maybe for the first few seconds but I think being coated in a flaming accelerant that burns for longer than 10 seconds would probably be worse.

median zephyr
#

i mean realistically fire is fire yes, but in game, the hellfire is SPECIAL fire, somehow hotter or whatever, hard to tell realism when one is kinda weird

#

like obv a normal fire would grow, but so would a hellfire

#

but either way, gameplay wise its dumb, so i dont really care whatever would be more realistic

rotund obsidian
#

I mean, hotter by virtue of burning through all of its fuel instantly in a giant explosion, sure, but in terms of actually destroying remains, probably significantly less effective than just dousing it in fuel

#

which is how it functions ingame as well, big fiery explosion, worse to get hit by it but it doesn't last nearly as long.

median zephyr
#

maybe, depends on what, bc if a hellfire was on wood or smth, itd be just fine with fuel, frankly the whole burning thing is unrealistic, youd get resd without eyes and stuff, is just a gameified thing

#

which is good

rotund obsidian
#

but yeah idk its weird. hellfires are already like, an A-tier consumable while firebombs are like D tier

#

the only real use for a firebomb is for punishing a necro slightly more when you don't plan on babysitting

median zephyr
#

100%, and i mean area denial ala poison bomb but fire, but its a bad throwable

#

which idk, should it burn bodies faster? maybe, but i think its ok to have some lower tier stuff, however hellfire ABSOLUTELY needs 0 buffs like this

#

or buffs at all

ionic cloak
#

Bring back randomized shuffle for free hunters. I get tired of seeing the same three hunters for the free ones. It takes away from the game.

#

correction four hunters

ionic cloak
#

Whats with the diablo 2 necromancer character, yall just added

#

im thinking thats copyright infringment

sand kiln
#

Huh

#

It's a Hunter with tuberculosis

ionic cloak
#

looks like a copy paste with western attire

#

https://store.steampowered.com/app/3037030/Hunt_Showdown_1896__Bones_and_Bounties/

Steam
Hunt: Showdown 1896 - Bones and Bounties

This DLC contains one Hunter, two Weapons skins, and one Tool skin: - Silver Spur (Hunter) - Yawning Grave (Mako 1895 Carbine) - Dry Bones (Caldwell Conversion Uppercut Precision) - Grave Robber (Weak Vitality Shot) Silver Spur A walking dead man they call Silver Spur, Ezekiel Stringfellow has hunted his fellow man all his life. Cursed by ...

Release Date

Coming soon

#

huh, they look the same

#

much like the prodigal son character yall have, he looks like Vega from street fighter

#

if you want a character that has TB you should have made him look like Doc Holladay

#

i think Western fans would appreciate historical like characters more so than other video game characters.

#

which would help you avoid lawsuits

#

i reckon

sand kiln
ionic cloak
wanton finch
#

Man hunt just doesnt run too good does it

arctic flame
manic roost
#

Title: Legendary Concertina Bombs
Description: Halloween Concertina Bomb
Buy as DLC or Battle Pass

remote quest
#

I need to mald about this UI

WHY DO I GET SENT BACK TO THE HUNTER SCREEN EVERY TIME I EQUIP SOMETHING
I click a bomb go back to the screen then have to reopen the inventory to click another fucking bomb then it brings me back

God forbid im able to equip multiple of the same items without swaping between two screens like 8 times

#

and the fucking sort by rank for traits

#

why is that the default

#

why does it revert

#

how about i get this shit so i can have it always sort by cost or name or some shit without clicking an extra fourty times per fucking action

river zephyr
stuck blaze
tribal wyvern
signal mural
#

He looks cool but I think he will end up like the Revenant, no one plays him because of his nearly glowing white skin. Where's his head? THERE!

unborn gyro
#

Thank you @queen jungle. I very much appreciate your post in feedback.

#feedback message

queen jungle
#

You're welcome. I care about the game deeply and it pains me to see it at its worst since it got out of early access or even earlier.

unborn gyro
#

I mentioned a similar thing " GET BACK TO WHAT MADE THIS GAME SPECIAL. There are a million shooters out there but only ONE HUNT. " This game isn't what it was and I very much want it to be what I got hooked on.

#

You said it much better than I did.

queen jungle
#

I think I saw your post and I agree with it. All they had to do was simply stick to what made the game great (and I think we all can even pinpoint the exact time right here on steamcharts when the game was at its best: https://steamcharts.com/app/594650 July 2023, that's when the number of monthly average players was at an all time high). That's not to say that the game didn't have its issues back then, but all they had to do was use that as the baseline and improve the game from there. Unfortunately, things only got worse.

Hunt: Showdown 1896 - Steam Charts
unborn gyro
#

I think things went weird around the inferno event. It's around the time I think the game lost its way. Loud, blarrgh, in your face .. and to compensate for our previous inability to resolve and/or actually fix a problem.... here is solo self revive.

#

I am very jaded these days but I hold out. I really do enjoy the game but the new baubles (maps/visuals) will only keep me vested for so long. They need to invest the infrastructure so that the vision of the design, lore and art team can be fully realized.

#

Until they actually invest in better architecture I'm done spending money on this game.

queen jungle
#

Good. I think we all need to make that pretty clear to the devs.

#

It's probably the only way to save the game.

latent geyser
#

In general people hate slow games tho. Stalemate has been a very common issue and they've made many changes to make it less occuring. That said the game is still far from fast.
Also they probably have planend dates for dlcs, and just as usual, the people working on the UI are not the ones working on the dlcs or on the marketing. The release of a dlc doesn't impact the behind-the-scene rework of the UI.

viscid ice
ionic cloak
#

@river zephyr @stuck blaze Kinda, but you get my point right even if he looks like Geralt from the witcher it is still copyright infringment.

signal mural
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But it's not because he's not Geralt. Geralt doesn't wear western apparel or a hat. Honestly he just fits the stereotype of the cursed gunslinger. Don't get me wrong my first thought was Geralt of Rivia but it's no where close to copyright infringement.

Van Helsing is already in the game... the BB Legend the male witch hunter guy...

carmine needle
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You can't copyright dude with white hair lol

ionic cloak
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Van Helsing's image has many different looks

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copyright is bound to that similar image though, tall skinny white haired necromancer/witcher

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its not copyrighted to Geralt of Rivia because the character doesnt have yellow eyes

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but he is a copy paste of the necromance from diablo 2

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instead of copying existing characters maybe have more of a imagination and create more unique ones

hot vigil
ionic cloak
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even the guys weapons scream necromancer

carmine needle
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I mean, I think the whole lineup is pretty unique

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Weve got over 100 pretty different hunters

ionic cloak
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its like you arent even trying to hide it

stuck blaze
ionic cloak
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thats what people say before they get sued lol

signal mural
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At this day & age if everything had to tip-toe around getting inspiration from anywhere in fear of a copyright infringement then art might as well give up and die.

hot vigil
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@ionic cloak "sickly looking white haired man" ain't new, it ain't original it is done a thousand times in thousand different medias.
You just "boss babying" hard about it :v

ionic cloak
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As a artist myself i understand artistic copyrights and this is literally sueable

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intellectual property/copyright infringement

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hey its your funeral

hot vigil
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lol, lmao even

stuck blaze
ionic cloak
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but the game is based in the USA

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which they do care lol

vague oyster
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Inspect Equipment on lobby screen is very good.