feedback-discussion

[radiant river]

True, however I rarely find stalemates happen otherwise as any good player is constantly going for peeks from different angles

Even if they're running back to play range with mosin and aren't overcommitted to any fight they still have lots of opportunities to get shot

[late quartz]

I think probably 1/20 or 5% of my games have a proper boss lair stalemate

It's annoying when it happens but it's not the most omnipresent thing

[unborn smelt]

ngl i think most of that discussion is just confirmation bias in it's best form

🤣

[late quartz]

Well sure but find the stats

Where are they

We don't have them lul

[unborn smelt]

true

the truth is propably somewhere between all 3 of your expectations

[late quartz]

I don't think the game is unplayably slow but I think there's a somewhat bizarre resistance to adding more reward for risk taking

[unborn smelt]

which i'd say is a pretty good thing as that means it's diverse enough to have lots of people having pretty diffrent perceptions of the same situations

[late quartz]

The game is slower than it used to be relative to a certain point in its lifespan, probably between the new matchmaking system and like... Light the Shadows maybe

And it could probably benefit from a similar pace to that era

[radiant river]

Would be cool if there was more util like lanterns and beetles around the world that could help break stalemates for when you don't have nades

[late quartz]

True

Resources should be more renewable

Packmule is one of the games most important traits for this reason

Easily S tier because it allows you to actually make choices in future fights, and spend your resources now without risking being out of options later

Consumables are very strong but very limited. Once they're gone they're gone.

We need more lower power tools that can be used more consistently

[unborn smelt]

i dunno - i find myself being able to replenish consumable pretty easily without it too

now that they added more natural world spawns as well as the ones in towers and the tool boxes

[rotund obsidian]

decoy fuse buff was pretty meaty, i might consider swapping chokes for a beetle in order to fit them

[unborn dagger]

^

[late quartz]

Great example would be reducing the pressure to use beetles as one-time kamikaze bombs and more as reliable Intel gathering tools.

Give us a trait that allows you to serpent back up beetles so you can get them back without driving them all the way back to your player

[rotund obsidian]

barred doors be pissin me off sometimes

[unborn smelt]

but that's likely due to me just checking those areas really often and rationing consumables a bit

[radiant river]

It's not that you can't resupply on average but sometimes when you end up without consumables and no toolboxes nearby it really encourages stalemates

[unborn dagger]

And now they can blow up concertina too(Although a small amount)

[unborn smelt]

but i think making stuff like flaregun, and derringers restock off ammo boxes helped me a toon with that too

[late quartz]

This. You cant just reset a fight to go loot towers lol

[radiant river]

Also choke bombs are crazy for area denial

Like they are only temporary but you basically can't push them

No real counter to that

[rotund obsidian]

decoy fuses resupply one by one, yeah?

[radiant river]

(besides waiting which is boring)

[unborn smelt]

yes but that's why i brought up hunts core design of wanting people to make those risk vs reward vs ressources assessment

[radiant river]

Chokes shouldn't make you keep coughing after you leave them

[late quartz]

Chokes being good area denial is good imo

[unborn dagger]

I think since it is a pack of 3

[unborn smelt]

that only works if you have situations where you have people need to conserve consumables/tools or risk running out

[late quartz]

They should never get a counter, especially a trait to reduce their CC

[rotund obsidian]

decoy fuses work with decoy supply, right? 🤔

[unborn smelt]

Meh - but they're also too much of a do it all for my taste

[radiant river]

I think them alerting you someone is walking through is fine but you keep coughing for like 5 seconds after which is basically just wall hacks for your enemy

[austere stone]

Christmas Menu Music Where?

2 years without it!

[unborn dagger]

Uuhh good question

[unborn smelt]

they clear AOE, they take preassure of burning, they work as AOE themselves they are consumable protection

[radiant river]

Yes

[unborn smelt]

I'm just not a big fan of "must picks" like chokes

[austere stone]

pretty sure they do work, but only if youre actually missing ammo in your gun

[rotund obsidian]

my waxed pickle says otherwise 😈 (for that last part at least)

[unborn dagger]

Ah sweet

[austere stone]

if your guns' ammo is full it wont let you loot the ammo box to get decoys

[late quartz]

Sure but I think pushing through them should be a bad option, it should be something you want to avoid at all cost

Not just an audio alarm

[unborn smelt]

I love waxed dynamite ngl

[late quartz]

imo medkits are more of an issue at this point than chokes

[unborn dagger]

That's including the decoy fuses right?

[late quartz]

Not taking chokes is like a viable thing to do

[austere stone]

go test it, bring decoy supply and go into Training Grounds

[unborn smelt]

i mean yeah medkits are invaluable

[rotund obsidian]

no, you need to actually be missing a bullet. missing decoy fuses won't enable the option to hit a box, it'll still say that you're full on ammo

[radiant river]

I haven't ran chokes in like 6 months

Might have to now with flares burning bodies

[unborn smelt]

but i bet chokes are statistically also overly prominent

[rotund obsidian]

I haven't run dauntless in like 6 months but i wanted to since flares burn bodies, but of course dauntless is the very last bloodline unlock so fuck me for prestiging i guess

[unborn smelt]

but how does dauntless help with that ?

[radiant river]

Does that help

[humble quest]

Unless you catch the flare in the air I don't think that's doing anything

[rotund obsidian]

it lets me burn people and defuse their chokes without worrying about walking into my own fire from a firebomb

[unborn smelt]

if you're in range to dauntless a flare you can also just tap the body - no ?

[unborn smelt]

aah i see

[rotund obsidian]

I used to run hellfires but they kinda fell off

[unborn smelt]

i like hellfires still

[late quartz]

tbh I'd also sooner see throwing axe nerfs.

I just feel like right now chokes are more likely to be dropped from a loadout than any other "required tool"
Hell, even if people bring a talon/claw/bayonet weapon they typically also bring a melee weapon or throwing weapon

[unborn smelt]

good stand in for flashes now that those are garbage

[late quartz]

Chokes are definitely good but idk how you could nerf them in a way that makes any sense

[rotund obsidian]

a bit shorter duration could be fine

[unborn smelt]

I think throwing axes are in a good spot by now

that throwing kniffe buff did even the ground a good bit

[late quartz]

I don't see a single soul using throwing knives lol

[unborn smelt]

i see them every now and again

[late quartz]

They're just universally worse for the thing you'd bring a throwing weapon for

[unborn smelt]

and started using em myself again

[rotund obsidian]

throwing knives are good, if flare gun didn't get resupply buff i'd probably be taking knives like 60% of the time

but now knives are sidelined cause they eat my toolboxes!!!

[unborn smelt]

they are better to deal with hordes of AI or deal with a single meathead quietly

because they have three times the amount with just slightly less dmg

[late quartz]

HOARDS of AI should never ever ever be a problem for you to clear in some other way

Throwing weapons are for clearing special AI

[unborn dagger]

Flashes should not have been nerfed that hard

[unborn smelt]

but they are worse for sneaking around due to not killing armored in a single hit

[late quartz]

If you need a specific thing to kill grunts you're lost

[rotund obsidian]

tbh im fine with flashes being completely irrelevant, i dont think ive been flashed once since the nerf

[unborn smelt]

diffrent playstyles...

[late quartz]

Nah I reject that lol groups of grunts can't cause you problems

[unborn smelt]

i enjoy using throwingknives a lot, and they do kill AI very stealthily

[late quartz]

That's not a playstyle that's a skill issue

[unborn smelt]

from taking out groups of grunts while staying silent

not that grunts are dangerous

but they are loud if you melee them

[rotund obsidian]

throwing knives are also much quieter since you dont scream whenever you throw one like a stab lol

[late quartz]

It's still incredibly easy to kill groups of 4~5 grunts with throwing axes

[rotund obsidian]

silent killer exists but still

[unborn smelt]

and you can nuke a meathead really fast and silent with them too

[late quartz]

Plus being better for everything else

They massively nerfed killing meatheads with throwing weapons cause they wont just sit there and take it

[unborn smelt]

because they deal 6x ~130 dmg + pullout, as opposed to 2x 150

which was great with remedy during the last events

or just to get some traits

[unborn smelt]

yeah but it's not like they're hard to hit, or evade the attacks of to beginn with

[late quartz]

Yeah idk man I think "kills meatheads in 2 cycles rather than 4" isn't gonna be enough reason for most players to pick this tool

[unborn smelt]

but that doesn't silcene a gunts aggro sound

[late quartz]

Axes should just be less good

[unborn smelt]

and that gave away so many teams presences to me

[unborn smelt]

not saying it is

[rotund obsidian]

just nerf axes vs armoreds tbh, its kinda crazy how they just oneshot em

[tiny pivot]

Literally just add this to blade seer

[unborn smelt]

but i bet more people take chokes than axes to get back at the original argument

[rotund obsidian]

but honestly i dont have any real issues with axes vs throwing knives, they seem like good sidegrades for the most part

[late quartz]

It's possible. I doubt it tho

We're both statless

[unborn smelt]

that is true

both just gut feeling

[rotund obsidian]

main downside to knives imo is the fact it's easier to lose one out of six then lose a toolbox charge later

[late quartz]

The main upside of knives is that you have 6 of them

Which doesn't matter because lol resupply

They're just a completely contradictory item

[unborn smelt]

yeah that's the main issue i have with throwing tools alltogether

[late quartz]

Having more shit doesn't matter if spending it hurts all the same

[unborn smelt]

and they're easier to hit due to a lower arc

[late quartz]

If you miss a throwing axe you're LOST lol

They're dead easy to use

This should never factor in

[unborn smelt]

it should

[late quartz]

It's never ever the tools fault that you miss

[rotund obsidian]

yeah but getting an axe back feels better than +1 throwing knife

[unborn smelt]

theoretical power vs what actually happens in game are very important for balance

[late quartz]

Actually in game you should never miss a throwing weapon

[unborn smelt]

well there's rng to them past a certain range so i highly doubt that

[rotund obsidian]

fr they gotta remove the rng from the throws that shit is dumb

[unborn smelt]

unless you think they should only be used in the range where rng doesn't matter

[late quartz]

That range is way way way outside the range they should be used

[unborn smelt]

then i disagree with that

[rotund obsidian]

especially walking inaccuracy on knives bro please

[late quartz]

Because those are ranges where you're crossing massive gaps to go retrieve them, to kill AI you probably didn't even need to kill or aggro

[unborn smelt]

that range is pretty close if you try hitting a specific hitzone

[late quartz]

Which matters on exactly one single type of AI

Concertina armored

[unborn smelt]

yeah and again we're back at diffrent playstyles

[late quartz]

WHICH ONLY MATTERS with throwing axes lul

You can't one shot them with knives anyway

[unborn smelt]

i like to dispatch of potentially loudd AI from afar, and throwing knives to that very well

[late quartz]

If you're crossing that gap to get your knives back, why not do it when you're slightly closer ._.

You're going to get your knives anyway

[rotund obsidian]

i dont want the hive to aggro me :(

[unborn smelt]

as they're more plentiful, easier to hit at longer range and you have more of them than the AI in groups is mostly

[late quartz]

Hive aggro range is still within throwing axe effective range

You don't need to aggro a hive to be within the range where RNG will never fuck you

[unborn smelt]

against hives throwing axes work great, as they do against armoreds

[rotund obsidian]

im talkin bout my knives

[late quartz]

Ah

[unborn smelt]

i found them to be lackluster against dogs, or packs of grunts

not that they can't kill em easily

it's just a bit louder

[late quartz]

My general take is you shouldn't need to do some massive mental gymnastics to justify using sidegrade tools lul

[unborn smelt]

the gunt ones specifically

[late quartz]

It should be pretty easy to justify either one

[unborn smelt]

i mean then you could also just use your melee tool and ditch throwing stuff altogether

[late quartz]

I don't think the benefits of killing... grunts???? Matters very much compared to special AI.
And not just to me, to almost all players

[unborn smelt]

melee tools like the knickly knife deal with everyting very easily

[rotund obsidian]

i think body/toolbox resupply is just weird tbh, and it causes some stuff to be more of a detriment

decoys

[late quartz]

Sure but killing special AI from afar is very strong

And axes will also kill groups of grunts with little to no effort

[unborn smelt]

as is staying silent by not aggroing a horde of grunts

[unborn smelt]

it's not the effort i'm talking about

it's the sound

grunts are often groups of 3+

[late quartz]

Who still aggro once you start killing them ._.

They make the funny alert noise

[unborn smelt]

so with an axe you can kill 2 silently and the last one will likely aggro and scream

with throwing knives you have enough to dispach all of them very silently, because once you run out of knives, there shouldn't be any left to aggro

[late quartz]

It's not silent

The grunts still get pissed if you start sniping their buddies

[unborn smelt]

not nearly as loud as wen they actually aggro a player

[late quartz]

The sound delta between grunt alert and grunt aggro is pretty friggin small vs grunt agrro and player melee

[unborn smelt]

nah

[late quartz]

Absolutely yeah

Player melee is much louder than both

[unborn smelt]

yes ofc it is

but the scream of actually aggroing is far louder than the "alerted" noise

[late quartz]

I guess somebody'll have to whip out the editing software on this one but the audible range is really not that much wider in my experience

If I hear one I tend to hear both

[unborn smelt]

also since throwing knives are more expendable due to the amount they're also better for silencing dogs or chickens

[late quartz]

BUT I have no stats

[unborn smelt]

as a sidenote

[late quartz]

imo neither one is any more expendable

You never wanna be down either

And generally if you need to clear an animal cage it's only one

One axe or one knife is going to be 90% of the utility 90% of the time

[unborn smelt]

ofc you don't want to be down some for the restock, but being down 1/2 or 1/6 is a pretty significant diffrence

at least in my experience

[late quartz]

Numerically yes, in practice probably not

[unborn smelt]

yes - in practice if found it was for me

[late quartz]

Since one axe can still oneshot all the relevant special AI

You're almost never using more than one axe for anything outside of if you fuck up a concertina armored

[unborn smelt]

with 5 throwing knives i still have them do whatever i want them to, one axe left is usually too uncomfortable for my taste

[unborn smelt]

yes i very frequently do - because i like to get rid of groups of AI at a time, not just one after the other

[late quartz]

I'd argue overall, if we're really worried about sound, one shotting an armored pre-aggro is going to be a greater overall reduction in your sound footprint than killing big groups of grunts without the aggro noise

[unborn smelt]

which is likely down to playstyle again

[late quartz]

I mean you can have that playstyle if you want

I don't think it's a playstyle that makes throwing knives a good pick for the playerbase at large

There will always be some guy who swears by some niche offmeta tool

I'm not sure the headlamp guy really speaks to the state of the meta

I'd rather axes get nerfed so that I can look at my throwing knife skins occasionally LUL

[unborn smelt]

if compared 1 to 1 yes - if i start adding that to me, throwing knives to that, kill meatheads better, kill kennels and coops better it starts to be a good sidegrade IMO

[late quartz]

I don't think they kill coops better because the drawback of using them for that is resupply, not how many weapons you have left

[unborn smelt]

it's both

it just depends on which you're more reliant

[late quartz]

Breaking animal cages is also just a horrible idea most of the time because of the noise

It's ususally not the thing you should be doing

And when it is you typically have time to do it for free

[unborn smelt]

it's louder in the compund you're in, but you can moove much faster if you do it

[late quartz]

It's all just incredibly niche stuff, that's what I'm getting at

You shouldn't need to dig for reasons for things to exist

[unborn smelt]

because breaking them means you trade in short low range audio vs a louder high range audio

[late quartz]

It's like people arguing about the new army being good because of it's slightly different range and MV compared to the officer

[unborn smelt]

and a like to moove really fast, so i usually prefer to break a kennel and then moove fast, than sneaking by while loosing time

i reserve the sneaking for when i know there's people nearby

[late quartz]

Axes are way better for the biggest most common things these tools are used for.

Knives might be slightly better at incredibly marginal stuff, but those things are much less common and generally a result of you putting yourself in wacky situations that you could've avoided entirely

Moving fast and killing hoards of grunts with throwing knives are diametrically opposed LOL

[unborn smelt]

i think that's true for throwing weapons as a whole

[late quartz]

I disagree. I think the reason you bring throwing weapons is because special AI have a tendency to take a lot of time to navigate around, create serious barriers and often make a lot of noise

[unborn smelt]

in my experience it's far better to take a knuckle knife, or regular knife, and use the tool slot the axes would take for smth diffrent

like chokes

[late quartz]

So killing specifically special AI quickly and quietly is one of the single best investments for the speed vs sound footprint of your playstyle

[unborn smelt]

maybe a penny shot derringer now for some boss dmg

[unborn smelt]

my experience tells me otherwise

i don't doubt that for you it's diffrent

[late quartz]

Before it was flare gun vs throwing knives, knives being quieter but slower and more risky. Axes are as fast as flare pistols while being as quiet as a knife

[late quartz]

What would you say is a more impactful factor here

Balancing your speed vs your sound is pretty core to hunt, I think everybody agrees with that.
AI is designed to slow you down or force you to make more noise and put you in potentially risky situations.

Special AI is meant to create more challenging or complex situations with greater risk and more investment to clear or navigate around

It seems pretty straightforward that having a tool to quickly and quietly dispatch those barriers would be fairly impactful

[unborn smelt]

yeah ofc the axe is very impactful

[vital fractal]

Axe > throwing knifes

It’s just better in most situations I’ve found myself in

[unborn smelt]

i'm not even arguing that it's likely a bit stronger - but overall i think, back to the starting argument, it's way less important than the choke utility, and that axe vs throwing knives is right now a pretty decent sidegrade

[vital fractal]

Chokes > Throwing Melees for sure, found myself wanting chokes more than throwing weapons more often

[late quartz]

If I had to pick between giving one up forever I'd sooner give up chokes myself, and I think most people would too because people are selfish and shitty LUL

[unborn smelt]

What i love the axe for is PvP memes and the versatility it adds to a loadout that would otherwise be less good at dealing with AI

[late quartz]

But I also don't expect to be able to come back when my teammate dies, generally

[unborn smelt]

the knives i find to be better at dealing more dmg in total, either against bosses, meatheads or spread on AI groups

[late quartz]

Sure but that's just not very relevant in Hunt

It's not an MMO

We're not in a DPS race

[vital fractal]

What’s crazy tho is now with drilling hatchet… is it can be a loadouts melee, boss killer, and pvp weapon all in one

[unborn smelt]

yeah it's really fun

[vital fractal]

Like, that’s insane- so it frees up tools and consumables but like, that’s ridiculous powercreep

[unborn smelt]

meh... I wouldn't say it's powercreep

it's just a new high tier toy

as seen in the price

[vital fractal]

By definition it is though

Even if it costs more

[humble quest]

I love the different conversations here and #hunt-general one place we're seeing it praised as taking multiple roles, one is just trashing it

[unborn smelt]

by what definition

[late quartz]

Powercreep by definition is when new tools makes old tools completely pointless

[unborn smelt]

yeah i don't think it does

[late quartz]

I'm not sure what the drilling replaces

[unborn smelt]

the Drilling is fun, but medium ammo is a pretty hefty downside

[vital fractal]

Increases the players ability to deal with situations via an increase in loadout options without the sacrifice required before hand

The player now has an increased ability- ergo power -to handle more situations as compared before

[unborn smelt]

the sawn-off drilling hatchett is a great allrounder

[vital fractal]

It’s not a replacement, it just continues the trend of increasing player power incrementally

That’s all

[unborn smelt]

yeah we have very diffrent definitions for powercreep

i see it like phyrric

i don't see it replacing old loadouts

[late quartz]

Power creep, in this context, would be about making some other loadout option bad.
Every time you pick anything, you're getting some benefits at the cost of not bringing any other thing. The opportunity cost is the "sacrifice"

[unborn smelt]

not in a significant enough way to out compete weapons at a similar intended level - not that there are that many to beginn with

[late quartz]

It's just a new gun. I don't know what loadout I'd want a drilling hatchet over a romero HC slug tbh

[vital fractal]

Enh, we see powercreep differently then

[unborn smelt]

medium slots are in pretty low demand in general i'd say

[late quartz]

New strong thing =/= powercreep

WE MIGHT SAY THAT IT'S TOO STRONG, but it's not because of powercreep, which is a specific issue

[vital fractal]

But new strong thing allows the player to reduce the sacrifice required to achieve the same outcomes -> powercreep imo

[unborn smelt]

the hatchett drilling makes for a great backup gun, assuming you want to invest in QM

[late quartz]

There's no reduced sacrifice

The opportunity cost is the same

[vital fractal]

I’d argue there is

[late quartz]

It'S BETTER THAN THE ROMERO HATCHET

That's what I'll say

it powercreeps the lowest tier of shotgun lul

And even then, debatable, because you can bring multiple ammo types on the romero HC hatchet so like eehhhhh still not technically powercreep

But that's getting pedantic and fart-sniffyingly technical

Pound for pound you should probably never bring the romero hatchet over the drilling hatchet if you had infinite money. Bringing like starshells to burn bodies or whatever isn't worth having a gun that's less good

[unborn smelt]

It has every range from punching to medium range covered - and with a big skill advantage over the enemy even long range

but a hatchett IMO is better up close, due to the 2 ammo types, for example slug for PvP, penny for AI; and on range i'd rather use an obrez mace, long ammo is just more potent, and the mace is a great melee attachment

[late quartz]

If my teammate swapped off a drilling hatchet to bring a romero hatchet for pennyshot I would lose my mind LOL

I might actually perish

[unborn smelt]

As a very PvP focused player, yeah i would too

but i just gave it as an option

[late quartz]

The big question is what would you no longer take because the drilling hatchet exists. PERSONALLY I can't think of anything I play that I now go "nah why bother"

It certainly ain't replacing the rival HC slug

[unborn smelt]

I can think of one thing actually

[late quartz]

I will never prefer a hatchet over a second slug

[unborn smelt]

Uppermat

[late quartz]

Mmmmm the only reason the uppermat has ever had any reason to exist is because it gives you more long ammo

[vital fractal]

The reason I view it as a powercreep weapon is

Before, let’s say I wanted both a shotgun and a medium ammo rifle with decent performance without quartermaster

I’d have to go for something like a Obrez and Caldwell rival or Centy shorty + specter shorty-

And I would have to have a separate melee entirely (though having a blunt option available via knuckle X is super useful)

With the Drilling Hatchet, I have an effective weapon within compounds that can deal with most AI including bosses (really just not immolations), can deal with most player engagements effectively, and can ohk if equipped with slugs whilst also providing a consistent ohk melee

If I’m worried about even further ranges I can then equip a mosin Obrez, I can specialize into bows or dualies, or have a great ammo slave for a medium or shotgun option to improve up close performance

It simply allows more flexibility than before

[late quartz]

I think the uppermat using long ammo is sort of what it lives and dies off of, and so it can't really be replaced by the drilling (not that I'd ever have used it before)

[vital fractal]

Hence powercreep

[radiant river]

does drilling 1 tap 125hp hunters

[vital fractal]

Not without dum dum

[unborn smelt]

you could pair an obrez mace with a short shotty

[vital fractal]

I did say that didn’t i?

[unborn smelt]

you get better long range than a medium ammo rifle and you'd have the melee on the obrez just like the hatchett

[vital fractal]

The mace melee is not reliable as a ohk

[unborn smelt]

with another short shotty you also get a better CCQC option potentially

I found it super reliable

and it can dewal with immo's too

[vital fractal]

Damn, must be a pc thing lmao

[unborn smelt]

could very well be

maybe hornskin use differs on console vs PC too

on PC it's basically extinct from my experience

[late quartz]

The thing I think you're massively overlooking is the fact that the drilling makes major sacrifices since it only has two shots

The makes sacrifices compared to both a dedicated shotgun and a dedicated rifle (although it has benefits over a typical rifle from its insane RoF)

[vital fractal]

Enh not by much I would think, but then again bat ptsd has forced me to rethink hornskin at times

[vital fractal]

Well, at that point it’s down to skill of the player

And of course, that melee can really make up for it- as it also does on the Romero hatchet

[late quartz]

I mean... You can't outskill needing to reload

[unborn smelt]

another issue i see is that i can get a good balanced loadout without a medium slot weapon too

[late quartz]

Melee attachments on your gun are pretty niche

They're useful but like

Not in most gun fights lol

Not more than having more bullets

[vital fractal]

Sure, having multiple follow up shots is great and in general a better thing, but from what you’re getting- you cannot deny how much flexibility the hatchet drilling provides which wasn’t available as easily before

[late quartz]

I don't disagree that the drilling hatchet is strong, it is, I just don't think it's problematic.

[vital fractal]

This is where I disagree, I have had multiple fights on console saved or lost due to melee availability

[late quartz]

Sure I've had fights won and lost based on knowing when to take out my knuckle knife

[unborn smelt]

melee is far more prominent on console

[vital fractal]

I don’t think it’s problematic on its own, it’s just attributing to the overall powercreep I see in the game as a theme

[unborn smelt]

so that can very much be a big thing to consider

[late quartz]

The drilling itself is a more problematic addition than the drilling HC

[unborn smelt]

also the reason the bomblance was kinda trash on PC for ages but didnt get buffs

[late quartz]

Because of its rate of fire

The games power curve is shifting right for sure, the power level of players is going up

No doubt

But this particular niche being better filled... meh???

[vital fractal]

That is my whole point, with new items being added they increase the overall player power and honestly- I’m not sure I enjoy that aspect

At least, not while the rest of the game is not tweaked to reflect that

[late quartz]

High ROF guns make the game worse every time

[unborn smelt]

I personally wouldn't even say that - i'd just say they expand top tier guns selection

[vital fractal]

If everyone is super, no one is

[late quartz]

All the low and mid-tier guns are getting major buffs too from special ammo

[radiant river]

it feels more like ease of use is going up

[late quartz]

Traits are getting buffed, events run all the time and massively increase power

[radiant river]

mosin is still strong

[unborn smelt]

yeah that's true

i meant more in a new gun powercreeps old gun sense

[late quartz]

I don't think this is powercreep

It's just a general increase in player power

Powercreep is a specific thing

[unborn smelt]

in general i think you're right

[late quartz]

I don't mind players getting stronger, I don't hate change necessarily

[unborn smelt]

the new hunter recruitment, and special ammo expansion for many guns do that

[late quartz]

I just think a lot of the ways players have been made more powerful in particular are bad

Again, mostly stuff like high rate of fire or universal access to dumdum ammo LUL

[vital fractal]

Universal dum dum is so bad

[unborn smelt]

i personally like the addition of more high ROF guns

[vital fractal]

Just, most of the custom ammo choices so far are just bad

[unborn smelt]

there was a long period where i was just sick and tired of 5-6 stars being basically any flavor of long ammo bolty and uppercut

[vital fractal]

Like why add HV to the centennial right after adding it to the springfield, knowing damn well the centennial also has a custom ammo to allow one tap downed hunters as well when the centennials niche wasn’t damage but rather mv, accuracy, and mag size

[unborn smelt]

not a fan of stuff like the vertterly Cyclone tho

but the drilling i don't mind much because the low "mag" keeps the high RoF in check

[vital fractal]

The cyclone is a cool gun in a vacuum but I cannot defend it being in hunt from a gameplay perspective

[late quartz]

The drilling is so outrageously strong in the hands of skilled players

[unborn smelt]

Oh i get the idea

[late quartz]

It's like a dream come true it lets me completely shut off my brain and just click on people

Definitely problematic lul

idk if the cyclone having 2 more shots outweighs the drilling getting a one shot kill to the chest

Especially since the drilling has DUMDUM lul

[unborn smelt]

from what it looks like it's supposed to be a gun that plays diffrently than the umpteenth long ammo bolty. With medium ammo it has lower range, and with the higher RoF it's great in CQC

[late quartz]

For sure

It's just sort of irritating that the only way to break out of the long ammo dominance is to make cheese guns

[unborn smelt]

i don't think it's a "cheese gun"

i think it should have been diffrent

personally i feel like a semi auto should have been compact ammo at max

if ever considered that is

[late quartz]

It just feels so outrageously strong

I've never used it and gone "man this is good but it's not long ammo"

I use it and people just get deleted

It's not gonna be the best at everything but any sort of heads-up gunfight or duel it's like

Probably the best primary in the game

IF YOU'RE A GOOD SHOT if you're not confident I guess it has issues but

[unborn smelt]

i don't think that either tbh

i still think the best guns are long ammo snipers

[late quartz]

For a heads-up fight or duel?

[unborn smelt]

there's just nothing that can really compete if you keep your range

and once you got your first pickoff you can compete even up close very well

but the cyclone is definetly a really strong gun

[late quartz]

I'm not afraid of a sniper if it doesn't have control over the fight

[unborn smelt]

and if we consider a straight up fight, smth like "in the same compound" the avto is deadly af

[late quartz]

And a massive part of Hunt is not letting other players control the encounter

Players who want to force you to fight them who will take control by force

Yeah, having something like a drilling is probably the most scary thing next to a dolch

Because they have so much flexibility and power to just delete me before i can get a second shot off

[unborn smelt]

honestly the dolch never was that scary

[late quartz]

The dolch is terrifying

[unborn smelt]

one of the few things we got stats on

[late quartz]

They cherrypicked stats to excuse not balancing their game lul

[unborn smelt]

and it only was "terrifying" in the MMR area between high 5 stars and low 6 stars

[late quartz]

They just gave us pickrate stats

Which is not really how you should look at gun balance

[unborn smelt]

in higher 6 stars it wasn't noticably more deadly than many others

and below it was too expensive for people to ever consider

[late quartz]

Yeah the BEST PLAYERS IN THE WORLD who can consistently hit headshots with slower firing weapons would definitely equalize the difference between high and low RPM

This is such an obvious case of misinterpreting data on cryteks part

Stats are good, cherrypicked stats are often a tool of misinformation

[unborn smelt]

not just, they specifically said - in top ELO it wasn't overly deadly

[late quartz]

^

The best players can instakill you right off the bat

Of course it would be less powerful in that environment

Give everybody free dolches and come back to tell me it's not a deadly gun lol

Data requires interpretation

[unborn smelt]

the thing that's often disregarded is that hunt consists of quite the amount of OHK scenarios

[late quartz]

it's a set of facts not an explaination for those facts

[unborn smelt]

due to the way long ammo dmg with the health bar system works

[late quartz]

I think that particular element of hunt is often massively overstated

MOST individual encounters will not happen with a player below 125

[unborn smelt]

and stat wise the dolch at large was no issue

the uppercut however, at the same time was

[late quartz]

So, again, the stats we were given were massively misinterpreted

And obviously so

They were an excuse

Because Dennis loves the dolch and doesn't wanna nerf it lol

[unborn smelt]

yeah that's smth i'd have to disagree with

[late quartz]

Why do you feel my interpretation is wrong?

[unborn smelt]

we're talking about the devs giving out info with all the other backgground info and stats and their interpretation

[late quartz]

Do you think if the dolch were say, 200 hunt bux and low level players used it all the time

It wouldn't be overly powerful?

[unborn smelt]

vs people very biased opinions

(mine included)

[late quartz]

with all the other backgground info and stats and their interpretation
????

No

There was no backgroudn info

It was a few very limited pieces of information

[unborn smelt]

ofc they have the background info

[late quartz]

They have it, they didn't give it

[unborn smelt]

we just didn't get more info to compare it to thers

[late quartz]

And given their explaination there was no indication that they used any of it to make a good decision

[unborn smelt]

exactly that's what i'm saying

the devs have it and came to that conclusin

[late quartz]

Right so... they might have the information but if we aren't presented with it there's no reason why we should just trust the notion that more data exists

Their interpretation of the data, as they stated it, was deeply and inherently flawed

And ignores obvious confounding real-world variables

[unborn smelt]

yeah but if you don't have that info either you can't really make a better informed judgement, tho ?

[late quartz]

I can make a judgement of their interpretation of the data as they choose to present it

"It's not used that much and in the top 1% of matches it's not that much stronger than other things" is a horrifically bad way to assess this particular issue

[unborn smelt]

that's not everything to it tho ?

[late quartz]

Because we know that in top level play the impact of body shots is lower, and the difference between player skill will broadly also be lower by comparison to other brackets

[unborn smelt]

that's just nitpicking one specific part and leaving out the rest

[late quartz]

That's all they gave us

It was a horrifically bad excuse

it was a short aside in a dev stream

they didn't show us graphs and relative usage stats or performance of other guns

[unborn smelt]

from the devs point of view the Dolch should be balanced as best as possible across the broad spectrum of players and with the games economy in mind.

and there we have the small amount of top people, where the stats showed it wasn't much more deadly than other weapons, then we had the situation that the vast majority of people could never afford the Dolch at all, so it wasn't a good gun for them either because even tho powerful, it wasn't sustainable enough to make an impact on th data

only that 5-6 star intermediate bracket was where it consistently overperformed

[late quartz]

The pickrate of an item in a game that has metagame economy elements to limit and curtail pickrate is not necessarily indicative of that item's power.

Again, if the dolch were cheap and easy to buy for players of all level, do you think it would be mid in terms of performance? Probably not.

"The problem doesn't come up that often" doesn't make it any less unfair in the minority of matches where the problem is present.

Using top level players as the primary sample size for its performance is editorializing the statistics, this is a chose of interpretation, and it necessarily baises the scope of the data by looking at a play environment where other tools are also going to be used at a much higher level of proficiency. In a game that has one shot headshots, equalizing relative power differences among guns is much more common due to higher player skill

[unborn smelt]

but balance is not supposed to be based on just the raw power

[late quartz]

That's the complaint about the dolch

[unborn smelt]

ofc it would be broken if the price wasn't so high

but guess what

most top tier guns in hunt would

that's by design

[late quartz]

It's too strong when people use it in the vast majority of matches, not just high level matches, even if that happens infrequently

that's why people dislike it

The data was cherrypicked around that complaint

[unborn smelt]

and that's smth that's simply not supported

that's anyones guess but the devs

[late quartz]

Because we didn't get data on that Rangorok :P

They purposefully didn't give us that data

Which is why it's cherrypicked

[unborn smelt]

but that doesn't make your statement automatically right ?

[late quartz]

They gave us ancillary data around that complaint to avoid addressing it

[unborn smelt]

is it potentially - yes

[late quartz]

You're right, I don't have stats on it, but you made the claim that we know that it was never a problem because of the Dev's press release on it

[unborn smelt]

or they gave the data that is relevant to how balance should be done, as deemed by actual game designers

[late quartz]

And my point is that the information given by the devs is inherently flawed, misleading and editorialized data

[unborn smelt]

not by very biased users, again me included

[late quartz]

NOT an objective release of performance and pickrate stats

[late quartz]

The devs are biased too, everybody's biased

[unborn smelt]

ofc they are biased to a degree - but they are the ones that can act on cold hard facts as they have pretty much all the stats they need

[late quartz]

They showed their bias by releasing editorialized data, and I'm criticizing the way they used data in a non-objective and biased way to support a conclusion

Data is a reflection of facts, how people choose to organize and omit facts reflects bias

"Using data" doesn't make you more objective because data can be used to whatever end you want

[unborn smelt]

yes it does make you more objective - or at least can

because you forgo the step where people percieve something with a bias

[late quartz]

It doesn't. Instead of releasing data to be interpreted by the playerbase they gave us a very small narrow set of facts to support a conclusion

There are obvious flaws in the way those facts relate to their conclusion

[unborn smelt]

yes because players usually have no idea abot balance

because they lack the big picture

[flat sandal]

just curious, what did they release in the way of data`?

[unborn smelt]

that's been a really long time ago

[late quartz]

It was years ago and I don't know if i could find the devstream

[unborn smelt]

what we're talking about

[flat sandal]

kk^^

[unborn smelt]

were soma data regarding the Dolch96 nerfs

which are what 2 years or more back by now

[late quartz]

But essentially the Dolch was a big point of debate, and they finally addressed it by saying something along the lines of "It only has a very low pick rate (1~3% or something), and is mostly picked in high MMR matches. In high MMR matches it's not majorly dominant compared to other guns"

[unborn smelt]

Also conpared to the 50% pickrate of the Uppercut in the same high ELO range

[late quartz]

Which is not a particularly good justification for not nerfing it imo considering A) even if the pickrate is low, when it does show up it may still be too strong and B) high level players are better at creating advantageous situations, disabling enemy players with coordinated pushes and pressure, and are overall more likely to land instand kill headshots even with slow firing weapons

[unborn smelt]

while people complained the Dolch was OP and needed nerfs while the uppercuit didn't

[unborn smelt]

oh they still did nerf it.

[late quartz]

They did

They just dragged their heels about it LUL

[unborn smelt]

they just put the stats out to kinda show people how skewed the perception of the playerbase is

they nerfed it anyway because fighting it felt so bad for the people involved

which is still a valid reason for a nerf

and i'm not saying they shouldn#t have done so either

[late quartz]

Yeah. See this is a situation where data requires interpretation.

The uppercut doesn't feel unfair, even though its pickrate was very very high fighting it didn't feel frustrating or negative.
The Dolch has elements to it that create a feeling of hopelessness and imbalance that may not be reflected in something as simple as pick rate, and using data to uncover that frustration or imbalance would require a desire and effort

[unborn smelt]

which might also have been because quite literally every second person ran an uppercut

so a significant amount of times it was uppercut vs uppercut

[late quartz]

Right the issue is they didn't "put the stats out". Putting the stats out would be releasing a comprehensive dataset of a wide range of weapons' performance and pickrate at various levels of play

Dribbling random facts isn't transparency it's weaponizing information

[unborn smelt]

Nah

[late quartz]

Yeah absolutely! If everybody had M4 machine guns the dolch wouldn't feel very unfair to fight lol

It's about relative power to some degree

[unborn smelt]

I've made too many experiences with people denying facts even tho they're granted extensive information

[late quartz]

Sure, most people can't interpret data

Crytek in this instance has demonstrated a poor aptitude for interpeting data as well :P

[unborn smelt]

then confusing them with data they can't, or possibly worse missinterpret, is not a good idea

[late quartz]

Oh I completely agree, I am a firm believer that players often misuse data

I've run massive data collection efforts in other games and then just sat on it because i knew releasing it would create harmful misinformation

Hundreds of hours on projects that I just sat on because I knew it would be more harm than good put in the hands of people who lacked greater context or understanding

[unborn smelt]

and - to put perspective on common missconceptions of the time you don#t need extensive data

[late quartz]

You don't necessarily need to but in this instance the data given by Crytek was woefully insufficient to support their claim and riddled with obvious errors and bias in selection

Just because they "had data" doesn't mean their conclusion was supported by the data

And if more data was given it would've been even more obvious how foolish this way of interpreting these particular datapoints was

[unborn smelt]

people not only complained about the dolchs power, but there were a few very prominent claims.

those were very pecifically disprooven by the data.

one was that the dolch had an absurdly high pickrate, which it didn't, the other was that it dominated top elo, which it somewhat did, it dominated the lower end of top elo but not actual top elo

and well complaints regarding how bad the dolch feels to play against were acted upon by nerfing it

[late quartz]

Why didn't they show us the dolch's performance in low skill lobbies? Do you think the Dolch underperforms or overperforms in low skill lobbies?

I'd bet it overperforms, but we weren't told one way or the other

That part of the data was completely ignored

Just saying "It's not that good amongst the absolute best players in the world" isn't inherently more relevant than the fact that it probably overperforms among low skill players. Both show only a slice of the truth, and both can be wildly misused to push a narrative

[unborn smelt]

propably overperformed there - but then again it was not used often enough there to be a real problem

[late quartz]

The broad complaint was that the dolch was overpowered. Whether or not it had a wild pickrate was a much weaker and rarer claim .

[unborn smelt]

but "overpowered" needs context

[late quartz]

"real problem" is a matter of subjectivity.
The issue is and always has been that if you are playing a match and somebody else is using the dolch it feels very unfair

[unborn smelt]

and most people ignored money as a context

[late quartz]

Well of course. If you get into a match where somebody bought a dolch it doens't matter if they spent a lot on it or if the last 20 matches didn't have a dolch

THIS MATCH feels unfair

[unborn smelt]

because balancing also takes money into account, so a super expensive guns should overperform, aka be OP to a degree

[late quartz]

Guns that cost more should be more powerful probably, or better at specific things, but everybody agrees that this isn't some perfectly linear relationship or that infinite money justifies infinte power

Paying 20k for a nuke wouldn't be good for the game

Even though it's really expensive

Making really unfair feeling guns and then putting a high price tag on them doesn't make them feel less bad in-game

[unborn smelt]

absolutely, altho when we add the info that the dolch wasn't overly deadly at top elo, aka where infinite money is, we know that this was never the case

[late quartz]

Again, ultra-high skill lobbies have confounding variables that temper its power ._.

[unborn smelt]

it was only OP, in the small niche where money was plentiful enough to afford it at a semi regular basis, yet skill not good enough to make due with worse guns

[late quartz]

If i can headshot you instantly with a slow firing gun, your ROF doesn't matter

Looking at top skill players gives you an incredibly specific and narrow view of how the game works

And it doesn't reflect the experience of 99% of the playerbase

[unborn smelt]

but neither I am, nor were the devs looking at just that.

the devs saw, in the low end basically 1-mid 5 stars, it was barely an issue because it was too expensive.

and at the top it's power was not a big issue anymore either

[late quartz]

the devs saw, in the low end basically 1-mid 5 stars, it was barely an issue because it was too expensive.

The question should never include pick rate, the question of the Dolch's power should only look at lobbies that contain a Dolch if you wanna see how strong it is at various levels of play

Obviously nobody is mad about the dolch being too strong in a match where nobody has the dolch

[unborn smelt]

that's what i'm saying when the devs look at a bigger picture, while players often just are limited to their specific POV

[late quartz]

This isn't bigger picture, this is bad analysis lol

[late quartz]

If the complaint is that the gun is too strong to play against including matches where it's not being played against makes no sense

It's a way to avoid and obfuscate

We're selecting a convenient set of stats to ignore the complaint

"If the dolch is in the match, how well should it perform?" is the question

[unborn smelt]

but that wasn't "the complaint"

the complaints were manifold and some well formulated other not

that's the core issue

the complaint that it felt bad to play against was absolutely valid

[late quartz]

The complain was that the dolch was "overpowered", which reasonably translates to "it felt unfair to play against"

[unborn smelt]

the complaint that it was OP is highly debatable, because for the price it absolutely wasn't for the majority of players

[late quartz]

If the complaint was just 'too many people play the dolch' I agree that you could just throw a pickrate stat at it and call it a day

But notbody would be mad if everybody was running the dolch and it sucked

It's sort of obvious that some people complaining that it's too common stemmed out of a core belief that it's not fun when it's played

[unborn smelt]

We just define OP very diffrently

[late quartz]

yeah I mean, again, "OP" is a feeling to most people

[unborn smelt]

In my eyes OP is not synonymus with "feels bad to play against"

feeling bad to play against can be a result of smth being OP however

[late quartz]

And guns don't feel more or less powerful if they cost more or less.

When somebody else shoots you with the gun, the price they paid doesn't change how the gameplay feels

"When the gun shoots me does it feel fair or not" wont be affected by price

[unborn smelt]

OP is, in regards to hunt, in my eyes, is if something offers too much power, for the investment.

[late quartz]

yeah I mean, that's not what people complain about with the Dolch

So choosing to interpert the complains in that framing is going to give you funky results

[unborn smelt]

yes that's absolutely what people complained about

not only that, but many complained about that

some because they meant it, and some because they didn't properly voice the diffrence

[late quartz]

The overwhelming majority of Dolch complaints in the history of forever have been that it's too strong when people shoot you with it :P

I can't cope if you don't agree with that

Some people may have other complaints but the main one is that it shoots bullets too good

The solution is typically "nerf dolch" and not "make dolch cost more"

And that's not a mistake

[unborn smelt]

i won't try to put a quantity on who claimed what because that is a long time back

and i can't in good fait say most people said X

[late quartz]

I think it's explicitly bad faith to not make a claim here but you do you lol

[unborn smelt]

however i am not inclined to believe that most people said that either

[late quartz]

"Nerf Dolch" is like the most universal hunt meme lul

[unborn smelt]

it absolutely is - but that depicts the issue very well i think

[late quartz]

The idea that players... don't think the dolch feels too strong to play against... and just wanted it to cost more????

Seems outlandish

[unborn smelt]

the issue is not that the dolch didn't need nerfs or at least changes

but i still stand by my words that IMO many people made "wrong" complaints by either overly shortening it (Dolch OP isn't the same as dolch feels garbage to fight against, for example), it being lost in translation, or them actually not understanding what's the core issue

[late quartz]

No disagreements there

Most people give dogshit feedback

[unborn smelt]

wrong in quotations because i want to emphasize that complaints are not unwanted or bad

[late quartz]

Well, some feedback is definitely bad LUL

[unborn smelt]

but if they're done in low effort it takes the people that have to work with it a long time to find the correct screws to tweak the thing in question

[late quartz]

Like I wont disagree with you that most feedback around the dolch (and most things) was either vague, misguided, or narrow in its perspective

But the common thread about it being unpleasant to play against seems pretty clear, and choosing to ignore or skirt around it by lookin at pick rate rather than performance, and exclusively looking at performance among a tiny part of the playerbase seems inherently dishonest to me

I was SCREAMING when I watched that livestream with my friends

Because of how outrageously dishonest it was lul

[unborn smelt]

io just really want to emphasize that i don't mean it in a demeaning way at all - in an international community there can be a multitude of ways for precise feedback to get watered down without bad intentions or negligence

such as lost in translation

[late quartz]

For sure

[unborn smelt]

lost in abreviation (ie Dolch OP as opposed to dolch feels bad to fight)

and just for you, i clarify that because some others may read and i want people that may read it later to also know that

[late quartz]

A lot of feedback is just "This game is turning to shit the free hunter change sucks I'm uninstalling"

Which is obviously not useful

Best thing you can do when you complain is be specific

TOO MANY CHEATERS NO I DON'T REPORT REPORTING DOESN'T DO ANYTHING

[reef violet]

People like that make me laugh

[green moat]

I love the free hunter change

[unborn smelt]

being specific and not overly insulting /confrontational go a really long way

makes feedback far more easy to compute for the relevant people

the free hunters are going back to the old ways

[plush pond]

“TOO MANY CHEATERS” -man crouch walking towards the enemy

[unborn smelt]

at least slightly, in the reagard that you only get them if you're broke

[dim heron]

This is not true at all, reporting does do something.

[reef violet]

They were being sacastic

[late quartz]

I know bud I agree I was joking

[dim heron]

ah

[late quartz]

But it warms my heart that you think I was serious cause it speaks to my point lul

How many times have you seen somebody say something like that and 100% mean it

[dim heron]

I didn't read the context

just opened the channel to that

lol

a lot

that's why I answered

lmao

[late quartz]

Typical first thing to see tbh

[unborn smelt]

🤣

[reef violet]

True, idk how it is on the European servers… seen alota post about that. But I for one havnt seen many issue with cheaters in NAE. There have been a few sure but nothing that ruins the game experience

[unborn smelt]

personally i've encountered very few cheaters in hunt as a whole

[reef violet]

I’m 3-4start btw so maybe that changes the data too

[unborn smelt]

ofc there have been some

but really not many

[late quartz]

EUS I've seen maaaybe 10 cheaters total?

THAT I KNOW OF

[unborn smelt]

the days where you'd die to a 600m dualie headshot at the match start are over

🤣

[late quartz]

People just wallbanging through solid surfaces etc. repeatedly wiping out my entire team has happened

[reef violet]

Yea same

[late quartz]

But like if there are a lot of cheaters, they're not cheating in a way that I can distinguish from just normal gameplay

[unborn smelt]

i think especially in low population regions the high skill diffrences can be missiinterpreted as cheating

like i've had people base hackusations against me on the simply fact it was a wallbang, through a crack one could clearly see through, even on the killview

in case you know the map well enough, Sweetbell flour, north side of the building the boarded windows over the "underpass" that oversee the courtyard towards the wheat field towards lawson station

Also smth to keep in mind - sometimes there's bugs that are unintentionally abused. i Once looked through a crack on a house and tagged the hunter inside like 5 times, just to later find out you can't see through it on the inside of the building

that area has since been fixed, but that must have looked like cheating to the dude too

[unborn dagger]

@arctic flame Im genuinely in agreement because with free hunters just getting guaranteed fanning all it is doing is encouraging spam which really sucks for Hunt.

[thorny spindle]

Hackusations on hunt are fucking WILD

people have accused me of the most bizarre “cheats”

My favorite two so far are “hovering over traps cheat” and “infinite Avto ammo cheat”

[ancient hemlock]

I get accused of 'ping abusing' because I play in another region...somehow the assumption is the lag I'm experiencing improves my gameplay and gives me an edge??

[radiant river]

@humble quartz what is that screenshot showing

[humble quartz]

4 star mmr vs 5,5 star mmr

As always

[radiant river]

yeah you have two 5 stars

the difference between a 5 and 6 star can be literally one kill/death

[humble quartz]

5 star doesnt mean 5 star. There is a rating from low 5 and high 5

We ae both low 5, nearly 4

That why there is a squad mmr

And ours is 1,5 lower as the others

[crystal plume]

Stars don't mean brackets, and people severely underestimate just how many players are needed for even few brackets per region

As a thought experiment you can just do this:

Current playercount - people already in a match or just sitting in the menu doing other things than matchmaking / regions / bounty hunt and soul survivor / duo and trio queue for standard contract and trio queue for wildcard / x amount of brackets

You can test for yourself what value in place of X means that there's a reasonable amount of people queueing at the same time

And you'll quickly see that even for high pop regions they can't have more than maybe max 5 brackets if even that

[reef violet]

I think people are thinking of the stars as ranks. Which they are not. The differences between them are not very much and the system has been volition in the past (they are working in it) I have people in this discord say they are x-y-z star spanning three whole ranks. That means either they are extremely inconsistent, or the mmr is isnt consistent enough to gauge the skill of some players. I think an MMR overhaul could work, but is probably not needed.

[ancient hemlock]

Crytek have said multiple times, there isn't enough concurrent population for a SBMM system that would stop you from running into players above and below your star rating/MMR..empty lobbies aren't fun, no-one plays this game for just PVE

[reef violet]

I think the player division and small player count that @crystal plume is talking about is the driving force behind how they are handling wild card contracts.

[crystal plume]

If you mean why there is only trio queue for it, precisely why

They would love to add more queues for every need, but sadly they can't with the current amount of players

[reef violet]

That and locking it to weekends (bad). Now rolling it into standard (much better)

[humble quartz]

Bro i am 1.3 kda and my friend 0,89 we are getting 5-6 stars the whole time since hours all with 1.8 to 2.5 kda

Don tell me they are same as we i am not stupid

The mmr is more broken now than ever before

[crystal plume]

KDA is not used for MMR

[humble quartz]

I know, but just for telling that we are low 5 low 4, they are high 5 and 6 star

Thats because we are 4 and they 5,5

Its not about we are 5 star and they too

There is a whole fucking 1,5 star difference in the squad mmr

[reef violet]

Does this happen to you often?

[crystal plume]

If we assume that the bracket sizes are linear, then 1.5 difference is not unreasonable

Technically that would indicate 4 brackets

Which based on what I wrote earlier with how many divisions there is in the playercount, is reasonable

[humble quartz]

Only since the update

Before yes it was there, but not at a level that it got me and my friends so frustrating that we want to leave the game after hundreds of hours

Like it is now

It happened now for 6 games in a ros

Row

[reef violet]

I’m sorry you feel that way. Crytek obviously doesn’t want you to stop playing their game. I wonder if you are having low pop issue in your region?

[crystal plume]

1.5 star difference is not outrageous even on EU

Statistically speaking

Obviously in an ideal world it would be different

[reef violet]

I can’t speak to other players experience. I just know that never I have felt so outclasses over and over that it has made me feel like the MMR is unreasonable. Also I’m a pretty steady upper 3 low 4*.

[opaque glen]

great, now there's a small chance of playing when it's not the weekend. that barely makes a difference, and on top of that, the wildcard contract features three modes, which further decreases the chance of playing further.

[reef violet]

Do you know what the weight of each map is?

[opaque glen]

no

[unborn dagger]

I said at least, I didnt say it was a good thing

[opaque glen]

fair enough

[reef violet]

Agreed better than locking it away completely

[opaque glen]

true, but it could always be better, this is something the community has protested almost every season. feels like the devs feel differently for some reason

[reef violet]

But again it probably has to do with queue splitting

Like Diiba and I were discussing earlier

[opaque glen]

that could be it

I just feel like it discourages people from playing their new wildcard, which would only be active for the duration of the event anyways

[reef violet]

I totally get it

[unborn dagger]

If only they didnt exclude night maps from regular rotation.

[opaque glen]

so true ;-;

honestly I stopped playing the game a few months ago after playing it exclusively for 400 hours of gameplay

I only really come back for the events now since I was burned out

it just bums me out that they lock what makes the events unique to weekends

but I love the game, and this event looks really fun

[reef violet]

Idk I feel like night mode is different enough from the other conditions to warrant a separate queue only because it’s the only time certain tools and stuff are usable so I would want a dedicated load out for night (though I suppose the new. Flare gun and flare changes help alleviate that a little)

[humble quartz]

Yeah i feel so sad, it feels like the game is playing against us right now also with the new controller sensitivity settings on ps5 😦

[opaque glen]

I agree, but I feel like during events there should be a wildcard that's exclusive to new weather conditions

and aside from events I agree

that's just my opinion though

[humble quartz]

Hunt was my al time favourite and most played game, but right now i and my friends team are not able to enjoy it anymore

[opaque glen]

why is that?

[humble quartz]

We get faced to squads 3 times better than us. after 700 hours of developing muscle memory with the new controller sensitivity setting they put all this in trash

We feel like babys playing now

700hours

[opaque glen]

ahh, the poor matchmaking

yeah that's always been a problem with the game

and I don't use a controller so I don't know how that feels, but sorry to hear that man

@short silo with the current amount of cheaters, and terrible anticheat that would be catastrophic

[humble quest]

@green moat I just want to clarify one of the points you made - weapon progression is still based on using the same family of weapon. The change has been to how much exp is needed per upgrade and that is determined by compact(450)/medium(600)/long(900). Not all compacts upgraded by using a compact.

[tiny pivot]

Leecher XP: Another awesome feature for "quiet" hunts, where I just want to run around and grind points for that next progression. @green moat Can you explain what you mean, not sure if this is a new feature I missed or something

[reef violet]

Maybe they meant lesser?

[humble quest]

That wouldn't be right. Exp for basically all kinds of kills was increased

[left ivy]

get rid of teleporting. is this a cod game?

[vocal fern]

event points on the battlepass feels incredibly scummy to me, i have bought quite a few of the hunt battlepasses when i finish them, because I want to actually get something from my purchase, this feels like taking advantage of fomo, and also makes buying the battle pass no longer just cosmetic, as you'll get the weapons faster. this is the sort of behaviour i expect from most of the games industry, and am just disappointed to see it from the hunt team, who for the most part seems to truly care about the game and playerbase

[crystal plume]

We have essentially superpowers in the form of darksight that already lets us connect to beetles, see things humans normally can't, the whole "infection" is caused by a being from another dimension and in the event the "land of the dead" is seeping into the bayou

But being able to teleport is too much apparently

Comparing it to cod is also such backwards logic when it would be less likely for teleport to exist in cod unless it was in a futuristic setting or such, Hunt DOES have actual fantasy and supernatural elements

Voodoo, rituals, all that jazz have been part of the game since the beginning

[rotund obsidian]

cod literally had a teleport in the BR when they did the crossover with the boys

at least, i think. i know they had a superjump and laser eyes and shit

[tiny pivot]

The thing is I think the complaint of the shadow leap and stuff is more of a balance thing than a lore thing

[vital fractal]

It is because it’s such a drastic change in gameplay that was absolutely not warranted

I don’t get why people keep confusing Lore and Gameplay elements for each other

Seriously “oh but lore reason it’s fine” like no this is still a game first and foremost

[crystal plume]

I've seen both people complaining about the principle of it existing and not fitting in Hunt and people who were saying that it's OP gameplay wise before the event was even live

The latter magically being rarer now after the event has been on for a bit and people were able to actually use it and see how much of a gimmick it ends up being

[tiny pivot]

I do think that like

It is a drastic jump but for an event I think it is fine

I am however in the boat of people that thinks that if Hunt wants to experiment, I think they should do it during shorter events akin/during Questlines instead of these 2-3 month behemoth "Events" we get now

BUT. that's just me. I don't mind shadow leap too much so far and I think it's a funny gimmick

Mostly because if you tp into hives or immolators you get punished LOL

[unborn dagger]

Yeah it really gets annoying when people keep mixing those two things up. Like no shit Hunt clearly has fantasy elements

[crystal plume]

I've been loving the amount of opportunities for content shadow leap has opened up

Not talking specifically for content creators

But fun moments in general

Like this is funny as hell to me https://www.reddit.com/r/HuntShowdown/comments/18hssym/insane_reverse_shadow_leap_kill_what_are_the/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

[tiny pivot]

Bomb lance shadow leap is fucking redonkulous

[true bobcat]

Does anyone else see this as a problem?

[icy surge]

i really want them to revert the not sharing weapon xp across the party

[humble quest]

They lowered the thresholds for how much exp is needed for all unlocks, increased the exp you get from basically everything.. why is it so bad?

Especially with the event going right now, you take berserker on any rifle and can melee kill all ai except Meatheads easy for exp

[rotund obsidian]

yeah it's WAY easier to get unlocks now, you just won't unlock shit for guns you aren't even using anymore

[tiny pivot]

#game-ideas message

Tbh this is a great idea, keeps the same "second chance" and "underdog" feelings that Necro has and minimizes the annoyances of it in terms of the team POV

The only thing is, I would almost make it a separate trait at that point. And also crank up the cost a fair bit, especially given the new balancing and commodity of good hunter traits

[tiny pivot]

Random thought, but in terms of medium weapons, I would've much rather them give Drilling, a focus of the event, HV, rather than Centennial, which already got Dumdum last event and is incredibly strong, and HV is even more strong. HV Drilling would give it a better option to use it as a longer range weapon, where as right now it's not super great because even in the most ideal circumstance with no custom ammo, it's only like 500 ish MV, meanwhile Dumdum/FMJ reduce that to like 375. I honestly think adding HV and leaving it at like 650, 700, maybe even more, would make for a fun additio nto a fun gun. Especially if you could turn it into a meme cannon with the new hatchet/handcannon variants

[pulsar trout]

having the wildcard only on the weekends means there is no event for people who have jobs and work weekends. why would you even restrict the wildcard in the first place.

[queen jungle]

@alpine gust Please do not post the same suggestions multiple times. Also, please report technical issues to the bug report or troubleshooting channels.

@frigid folio Please report technical issues to the appropriate channels and keep #game-ideas for new feature suggestions only

[alpine gust]

but are you guys fixing it? because it is now a daily struggle. can't even join now for 30 minutes of triyng to get a match. I also don't like to be act like a system monitoring tool.

[vast geyser]

@crude mortar fastest way to level up is completing the challenges

[mint briar]

100% agree with you on this one, me and my friends really enjoy the wildcard and would like the play it most of the time during the event, it makes no sense that they deactivate it at all if is a integral part of the event. like if it is to counter to much money money gain then just lower the money you get from a bounty to regular standard contract amount during the week, but let people still play the wildcard if they want to.

[vestal iron]

Is there any discussion about making event skins purchasable after the fact? There are a small handful of skins I didn’t get due to life circumstances and what not and I really would like to one day finish the collection of all legendaries but currently I don’t see a way to get them and it’s mildly disheartening 😦

[dreamy delta]

On the one hand improving regular hunter recruiting reduces the oversaturation of legendary hunter (personal preference though) On the other hand: I think they overdid. Especially the free hunter come way to good equipped. But also the higher tier hunter almost feel like you get a level 20ish Hunter from the get go. This reduces the feeling of risking losing a hunter, which kills the thrill of hunt in the end

[subtle lichen]

I mean, gear fear means I often got a bit dejected after several losses in a row and took a break. Having the option of recruiting a free or cheap hunter and going again means I'm more likely to keep playing. I think the only balancing issue is possibly how many traits the higher tier hunters get, especially compared to the roulette with legendaries.

I am fully on board with the aim of making the welfare hunters feel less shit though. That was something which absolutely needed addressing.

[unborn dagger]

Unfortunately no because Crytek is greedy

[vestal iron]

They’d make more money selling them again once a year though

[queen jungle]

So how is Crytek not selling skins that would make them a bunch of money a sign of greediness?

[unborn dagger]

Almost like theyre using fomo tactics

[jagged wagon]

Fear of missing out.

[queen jungle]

But those people have already missed out.

[jagged wagon]

Except when they bring the headsman back a year later for a limited time once again at 2000bb and double dip on him.

[jagged wagon]

Chances are they will come around again at some point if they are popular enough. There are only a handful that have not come back, Lulu for example, but she might still show up again at another twitch drops event.

[willow burrow]

Because in marketing strategies creating urgency is more effective than maximizing loyalty gains? 🤨

If you have loyal customers (people who purchase, not fans), odds are really low they will be missing out on the content and if they are missing out it's often due to financial circumstances so they're a low value customer. Would you rather maximize gains from low value customers or start acquisition by appealing to people who had little interest in your product (low conversion rate) by creating urgency to purchase?

I get that u might not be allowed to talk bad about Crytek but come on

[late quartz]

It's very possible one of the hops between you and the servers has changed resulting in a slower connection. When issues like this aren't widespread it tends to be something along these lines

Your personal internet speed isn't the only factor involved, since you're always piggybacking off other routers along the way to get where you're going

[fair mango]

so what can i do in this situation? i had thought about the possibility that they may have changed the server location resulting in this issue

[teal parcel]

Maybe try VPN, thats what I do when european server decides to lose packets

[late quartz]

tbqh I don't know, I'm not a network person unfortunately. I've run into similar issues in the past though where my closest servers had ridiculously high ping, and moving 15 minutes away fixed it entirely (same ISP same network hardware etc.)

All this just to say, if it's not widespread among other people in your region it's unlikely that it's Cryteks fault

IT COULD BE CRYTEKS FAULT THO IDK

[fair mango]

what do u mean moving 15 minuts away

[late quartz]

Like I literally changed where I live and it fixed it in the process LOL

I'm not suggesting you move I'm just saying I feel your pain

[fair mango]

well im moving in about 3months too so maybe that'd help , idk, its further out west than in central though so it could be even worse

[late quartz]

One thing you can try is running a traceroute to crytek's servers (if you can figure out what their IP is, again I'm not a network person) and see if there are any bottlenecks along the way

Essentially it'll just show you your ping between each hop between you and them

That's how I figured out that my issue was somebody in the middle and not me or the game server I was having issues with

[fair mango]

somebody in the middle?

[late quartz]

Any time you connect to somebody else far away you're sending your information through a chain of routers, that's the tl;dr of what the internet is lul

So, it's not supposed to happen, but there can be situations where one of those other routers along the way will create a bottleneck and create latency between you and where you're connecting to

I really wanna stress I don't know that much about this, but often times people simplify it to "My internet is fast so it must be the game server's fault" which isn't always true

Because there's a bunch of middlemen between you and them that could (shouldn't, but could) create problems for you

So you can ask your computer to ping the server and tell you how long it takes for each individual hop along the way, and it could illuminate a problem

(again it could totally be crytek's fault, but if other people in your region aren't experiencing the same problems it's less likely)

[fair mango]

uhhh man im lazy to find out the servers IP

[fair mango]

i mean i get what ur saying but i dont have this issue with other games, so that must mean...

[late quartz]

Yeah, and I get that that makes it seem obvious that it's Crytek's fault

Totally possible, but it's also totally possible it's not at all

If it were cryteks fault it wouldn't only affect you

[fair mango]

thing is i havent met anyone from my area who are playing this game so i cant confirm

or fellow players from neighbour countries

ill ask around the asia channel

[teal parcel]

Can't play my favourite game on a weekend.

First it was Russian server you can't get in now its European too

Probably because people from other servers which do not work try their luck on a European server

Great event 10/10 thanks crytek

[queen jungle]

Hunt just had 37k players and the number went down to 29k in less than 20 minutes because there aren't enough servers for everyone.

This game is never going to get more popular because of bs like this.

[edgy sparrow]

is it working again?

[queen jungle]

Idk, I'm playing on NA because EU and RU are packed

[toxic jay]

i would also imagine that this number is not accurate, im also in the game, but just doing stuff like preparing loadouts. i wonder how many people in relaity are playing or can play right now.

[broken night]

Hunt its work or no ?

[scenic walrus]

Does anyone know why crytek decided to put the event weather conditions on wildcard for the last two events? I dont play against trios n feels like it excludes me from the vibe of the event. Like the inferno event was awesome

[green moat]

The leecher now gives you the equivalent points of killing a hunter, which was previosuly kind of light on XP.
So now if you are having a bad luck day, you can run around on a map quietly and make enough points just by killing leechers.
For example if I'm a solo, I might get a lance and silent nagants poison, do a sweep of the map for the boss, then exit.
Banishing a boss gives you a lot of points, you don't even need the token.
It's a pretty mundane strategy, but sometimes it's fun to just run around and kill AI for points.
Leechers are the most profitable now.

[rotund obsidian]

by leechers, you mean meatheads, the guys that spawn leeches?

those give 300 now, although a hunter is 450

[humble quest]

The ash is being folded into standard contract starting Monday

As per #general-announcements message

As to why they do what they choose to do, I don't think anyone here has a clear answer

[scenic walrus]

Ahhh thats awesome! Thanks! Totally missed that post

Yeah to me it was a weird decision the last event was a bit of a non event for me

[green moat]

meh, close enough, 3 leechers equal to two hunters is pretty rad and easy to get quietly.
the yt video I watched misinformed me, I though YT was all facts.

[karmic ivy]

This is not a good thing to assume because it is not that simple. Games are different. You should not expect the same things to happen.
To start, servers are not all in the same place. and your data goes through a different route to get there.

[fleet pier]

i mean i think its great, cuz i hate being forced into trios to experience the event as a solo,so now i can actually enjoy ashbloom.

[humble quest]

No, yeah adding it into standard is cool. I meant more like, why inferno never did but rain and now ash were.

Nobody got those answers

[tiny pivot]

#game-ideas message Don't understand, silenced guns don't have apetures anyway?

[humble quest]

They're not an aperture like some of the others but they're the stilted ladder sights

[teal parcel]

Sights on silenced vetterly are actually better than on regular vettery

[winter plover]

@green moat
So why should we discourage their behavior and not yours?
You sat there as well, just like them. Why should they be the ones having to make a move instead of you?

[hallow grove]

Why did they change it so IF YOU DOUBLE CLICK SOMETHING YOU ALREADY OWN A COPY OF, IT BUYS A NEW ONE ANYWAY TO EQUIP

I always double click to equip to a slot, so now it just buys a new copy even if I already own one

[little jackal]

okay hear me out

what if they were not physically able to fix the doubleclick purchase bug and just had no other choice than to inflate the recruitment economy

https://tenor.com/view/pepe-iasip-charlie-conspiracy-gif-11562330

[humble quest]

If it wasn't already clear, I am pretty sure this is a bug not a change

[green moat]

The hold was one sided, I can either wait or die. There was no alternative.
The way these individuals played was, they would shoot from afar, rotate, then wait forever, then shoot on sight, then rotate, then wait forever.
If we tried to get closer, they went back and kept doing the same thing.
When you have three players doing this, the game is miserable.
Zero risk should not exist for a whole team.
We didn't "get ourselves" into a situation. The team weapon composition enabled this.

[little jackal]

The objective is to extract with the bounty. I assume you had the bounty, but decided to not play the objective. Who's holding the match hostage 🤔

[weary fox]

Is Decoy Supply underrated? I've been running it after the buff to Decoy Fuses and D supply would save me a consumable or more useful tool due to always having the decoy fuses full. (and yes I do use the fuses often)

[glad stratus]

I still love the game very much. However, one thing is increasingly annoying me. Why aren't assists counted in MMR? Wouldn't it be fair that the player who caused the most damage gets credit for the kill?

Title: Assists & MMR
Details: I still love the game very much. However, one thing is increasingly annoying me. Why aren't assists counted in MMR? Wouldn't it be fair that the player who caused the most damage gets credit for the kill?

[hot vigil]

Wronge chat buddy :v

[turbid hound]

Sounds like a you problem anyway. You let yourselves get pinned and fear to act. It's not like you can't do virtually anything against a sniper team.
You can make yourself some room to escape if you dire enough.

Also, every single person that suggest some kind "anti-loitering system" don't get that they'll be the first ones to cry about it being implemented and that they now can't do shit when they got to a advantageous position against someone.

also

it's virtual money, don't be afraid to lose it

[late quartz]

It's so outrageously easy to just say "skill issue" and make up some hypothetical solution to an in-game situation, but the reality is whatever hypothetical solution you're creating lacks... ANY of the actual in-match context that would limit your options

The actual feasibility of "just push" or "just walk away from boss lair" or "just make space" is almost always going to be much more limited than people make it out to be. These are the most obvious suggestions imaginable, and everybody knows they're options, but they're often not good options

Granted, I totally agree that whoever has bounty takes on the burden of making stuff happen, and if the game adds any "anti-loitering mechanics" they should pressure players who choose to take the objective since that will always be a choice

[radiant river]

just click on their head

[late quartz]

True

Just win

[weary fox]

To be fair, if you're playing with friends, just use them as bait and get the fuck outta there. The ends are always justified when you get out with the bounty anyways, at least the dead guy gets something out of the match as opposed to everyone dying.

[late quartz]

Throwing one of your guys to die probably isn't going to help you lol

[weary fox]

I'd do it if it's what is most convenient to warrant an escape for me and my other guy

[late quartz]

In these sorts of situations you often cant create any sort of meaningful lead on the other team, leaving your position means you will be forced into a fight at a positional disadvantage

So just saying "okay John go die" means uhhhh

you still get into a fight but now it's a 2v3

[weary fox]

If the guy can draw the sniper's team attention for long enough for me and the other guy to slip away without dying. Well, John here's the plan alright? You go distract em, make a scene or something while me and Bob escape

[late quartz]

Yeah but "drawing fire for long enough to escape" is like... assuming so many things

You die instantly in Hunt

You're hoping the other team has no awareness of the situation and will just let you walk away

[weary fox]

It's still better than doing what our friend here did

[late quartz]

Probably not, actually

It probably doesn't create a more meaningful advantage than just doing nothing

Hunt has a perpetual problem where the best way to leverage an advantage is to do nothing and hope the other team gives up their position

Sacrificing your friend is almost never going to create any meaningful advantage in this type of gridlock situation

[weary fox]

Sadly, teams are usually patient enough to sit there and wait for anyone to peak their heads out so they can take a potshot, and chances are it would end up with someone dead on the floor. Sacrificing can potentially buy some much needed time, of course this is assuming the guy puts up a good fight against a trio

[late quartz]

If you think your teammate can put up a good fight 1v3 you would probably just be better off doing a full team fight ._.

The reason there's a gridlock is because there's a strong positional advantage that means taking direct fights is a bad idea

[weary fox]

Look man, desperate times call for desperate measures and I ain't risking my neck so my teammate can escape with one bounty. I should escape with the bounty >:)

[late quartz]

I mean hey if this works for you, by all means

I think it's horendously bad advice :P

[weary fox]

Same but, at desperate times, any last resort option you have might as well be thrown at the wall and see which one sticks for the longest

[late quartz]

All I mean to say is that "just do XYZ" is almost always dogshit advice and it's almost never going to be as simple as people wanna frame it when we're talking about an actual match

It's a way to dismiss legitimate issues with the game by shoveling it off as a "skill issue" without actually thinking about or engaging with the criticism

[weary fox]

Agreed

[late quartz]

Again I stress, if OP had bounty I do think it was "on them" to make the first move, if you choose to pick up bounty you assume the risk associated with it, and "anti-loitering mechanics" should break up gridlocks by pressuring the team who chose to take on additional risk for additional reward

But it was still probably a bad move to "just make space from the team with a better position and better ranged loadout"

[weary fox]

If it's a sniper team, your best bet is probably to play the 'lets see where they rotate to' by guessing and hoping you're taking the right way out. I don't know how you'd deal with snipers without snipers yourself.

[late quartz]

I mean yeah generally speaking if you don't have good ranged weapons the game doesn't give you a lot of good options

Which is annoying but also something you gotta cope with if you take bounty LUL

You get to choose which you prefer: chasing a team with snipers or being pinned by a team with snipers

They don't really get to choose, if you're in a position to take bounty you're the one with the choice

[weary fox]

I mean I got a pretty horrible idea. Send 2 guys out to be meatshields while you high tail to the extract (assuming you know where the snipers are)

I don't even think a team with the classic long ammo rifles can match a team with long ranged scopes. Do correct me if I am wrong though.

[late quartz]

I mean if your teammates are fine with losing the game and getting no reward I guess? Lol

[weary fox]

Just keep convincing them there's no other way to get out. They'll buy it soon enough

[late quartz]

Lol personally I'd rather die fighting than bend my buddies over a barrel for 400 hunt dollars

[weary fox]

Anything for money and exp, my friend. (Plus if we all died, we won't get anything out of the match)

[unborn dagger]

Pretty much my mindset

Unless they disconnect then I just leave

[unborn dagger]

@stiff mirage I honestly want them to work on it until they replace last gen versions just because I want the fog to be something like Silent Hill or the Mist where you actually see it rolling in instead of being just static

[grim moon]

what is the point of working as a team if 2 to 3 guys can start search and enter the same game as solos with necro to pick them self's up and work together

[stiff mirage]

@unborn dagger exactly thatd be awesome I also wish high points on the map could get above the fog or like I said the fog was localized to certain areas around water or low land there is lots that can be done with it and I don't want to see it just removed it's just way to much rn 😅

[weary fox]

Because if you're doing this pre game and coordinated, you can get banned lmfao.

Also for the record, solo Necro is overrated. If anyone in a team of 3 has 1 fire bomb, there goes your bars.

[glad stratus]

Where do i have to put it?

[wanton imp]

suggestions-idea's @glad stratus

[glad stratus]

Thanks! Have a nice day.

[unborn dagger]

That'd be an interesting thing to add in as well! Give more interesting tactics to weather events

[pearl wedge]

Wanted to jump, accidentally vaulted and got shot. Extremely frustrating. Should be different button.

[unborn smelt]

IIRC you can bind them seperately

[pearl wedge]

And you are right!

[grave ocean]

The new controller settings are very bad. I hope the old system comes back quickly. Playing with a controller no longer makes sense. The stick sensitivity is so broken.

[green moat]

Let ourselves GET pinned?
We killed 2 teams in a lair and the team was waiting for us at extract.
Then continued to chase us between compounds, extracts and eventually landing at docks.
They never reveled themselves, eventually waiting out the clock.
It's not an "us" problem, me and the guys in the game literally couldn't figure out if these people were AI.
They never pushed, just sat there and waited.
If you want realism buy a simulator, it's not a ME problem,
I've been playing this game for 4k hours and this type of play
is called a forced stalemate.
If a game is too stale, and people are forced to sit, there needs
to be something to help the pinned team at least force a reaction.
These guys didn't even communicate.
It was creepy dude.
Let me ask you this. Do you play in this manner?

[turbid hound]

If they were passive enough to not engage you in at least medium distance combat, then why did you felt threatened to just extract. More so you say that they was extract camping, that means that you was not even camped per say, and had the freedom of maneuver.
I can understand if this encounter was with cheaters, but that is a whole another story.

No I don't, but I sure as hell hope devs won't listen to selfish whiners that want everyone to play as they want.

[green moat]

Don't get personal, it's a valid complaint. A no win hostage hold isn't in any way fun or interesting, it's too realistic. Realism isn't fun.

[slim pollen]

If I'm reading this right, you ran into some people at an extraction, ran away from them, and are now upset with them for having been at an extraction?

[green moat]

It's more like, they neither finished the fight or left it, it was a stalemate caused by them. If we pushed they ran, if we waited, they waited. It was like bots or something.

[slim pollen]

Did they have anything you needed, or is it that you were too pinned down to leave them?

[green moat]

We had 4 tokens, they never got close enough to get them, they just waited.

[slim pollen]

So what was the problem? It sounds like you were never at a real disadvantage when it came to this situation. You didn't need to push them and they weren't close enough to chase you?

Is there something I'm missing?

[green moat]

Imagine you are playing chess and the other guy just waits, that's what the game was.
Or in a chess game, if someone moves a piece back and forth without making any advance - that game actually has a rule that you HAVE to do something.

[slim pollen]

If we're using chess as an analog, it sounds more like you had them in check and they were just avoiding getting check-mated.

[hot vigil]

Well, then the clock runs out and you win.
There are 3 extracts, they can't hold them all, if you get up to one extract and see them camp, turn around and get to another extract and get free bounty.

[turbid hound]

Automotive blocked my message, because of the last sentence I guess, so here are the picture of it, without last sentence

And yes, time limit is for everyone

[hot vigil]

In my experience, a lot of "anti-camp" people, simply just understand the game and how awful that tactic is truly.
Sure it is annoying when it works, but if people actually understood how to play around it, it ain't very good.

[green moat]

I would love to have brokent it, we tried for 20 mins. But being outranged by 3 cloaked snipers isn't something you can just do. Three people in discord rotating and never pushing or retreating is pretty hopeless. Most games take 20 mins? This game was like going from hunt showdown, to a real sniper simulator, it was super lame. You will experience this eventually and hopefully you at least try to relate. There are conditions in this game which are exploits.

PS. it was 3v2, the third player disconnected at spawn time.

[slim pollen]

Friend, you could have broken the stalemate at any time by going in the opposite direction, there's a number of extractions to go to. Your goal is to get the bounty and get out.

[green moat]

Which direction shuld I pick? The one that has the snipers or the one with?

[slim pollen]

Question

Is this bait?

[turbid hound]

Oh I've had my share of even 60 mins pixel hunting sessions. And I mostly play duo vs trios anyway so I know what are you talking about. But I also understand that it's my problem that I don't what to lose to some "oh camper, camper" in the bushes of Pitchfork.
But in your situation you plunged from relatively easy extract to pinned down sniper circus. If I read your message correctly.
And if I did, then it really is a you problem

[green moat]

Are you part of the problem or are you here to help?

[slim pollen]

You don't really seem to want help, any help that's offered to you gets labeled as wrong.

[turbid hound]

Map are usually riddled with covers so bum rushing one of them would be the problem solver in this case.

[green moat]

When you hold a token you are visible on the map and in dark sight.

[slim pollen]

And?

[green moat]

The range of a sniper scope lets you react 20-30s in advance.

[turbid hound]

You don't say.

You are visible in their scopes anyway, so the solution here is to kill/move one of them to make a breathable room for escape

That worked most of the times I tried it

[slim pollen]

I wasn't aware sniping gave you foresight, clearly science has taken us to a new era.

[green moat]

Yea the foresight is:

• They're moving towards us, move away
• They're moving out of the compound, cut them off

They can see your lighting bolt in dark sight and on the map.
With that much range it's an easy easy easy thing to handle.

[turbid hound]

Again, if they are far enough to not engage with you any way other than scope, you are not really pinned

[slim pollen]

You're acting like you'd be running across an open field from one extract to another.

[green moat]

When you're surrounded by three scopes and they can anticipate your direction, it's an unbreakable pin.
There is a lot of tolerance in that strategy to the advantage of the team.

[turbid hound]

And you just so afraid of a wild chance of getting shot in the head so you just sit and complain

That is how I see this situation

[slim pollen]

If they're surrounding you how were you able to force them to retreat as a group as you've implied previously?

[green moat]

As soon as we moved up a building to return fire, they just stopped shooting and moved backwards.
They stopped firing and repositioned, never to resume firing until we moved again.

[turbid hound]

And three snipers not nearly enough to cover any of the compounds that present in the game

[green moat]

It was the corner compount top left of the map.

[turbid hound]

Smart move on your part

[green moat]

Which part, choosing where the boss is?

[slim pollen]

So keep chasing the one guy towards any extract and force the others to follow you. Eventually the guy ahead is going to get pinned and you can shoot at the other two from cover of trees or buildings.

[turbid hound]

I still don't get it. You said they were extract camping

[green moat]

Extracts were on the opposite ends.

[radiant river]

snipers are uncounterable if played optimally. your best choice is often to extract. its really lame but thankfully not many people run them anymore.

[turbid hound]

That means that either extraction point was up the boss lair, or you made the smart move of pinning yourself in the corner

[radiant river]

they will never fix it because such a small % of the population abuses them properly

[turbid hound]

Former is literally can't be camped the way you describe here, and the latter...

[radiant river]

you can still try and fight them but you're barely playing the game and its not really any fun

[green moat]

Exactly, the game is just like being stuck in the game.

[slim pollen]

I've never struggled because of a sniper in hunt, bullet velocity is important enough that at long enough distances they're too far out to hit me unless I stand still. And any closer I still have easy cover up until I'm close enough to return fire.

[radiant river]

800m/s is quite high

[turbid hound]

Still not enough to reliably hit at distances over 150m

[slim pollen]

And not high enough to accurately hit a moving target at high range.

[turbid hound]

And there is not that much players that can do so

[slim pollen]

Move randomly and you're golden.

[turbid hound]

Most of my interactions with sniper were either, they down me/teammate and scram away, or it's a dance baby

And latter is actually quite fun

[green moat]

I would not complain if it was a normal game with some snipers sniping, I totally don't care about 3rd party of being headshot from 150m, but at least they shoot and do things Like someone said, people can just not participate and sit there, which really really sucks.

We should complain about these things, even if they don't get solved. That type of gamestyle is very toxic and unnerving.

[turbid hound]

Alright, I guess.
If they we're to implement such a system, what should it look like?

And mind you, it should not interfere with normal ambushes that is a viable strategy and literally everyone uses them.

Like make that if you sit in one place for too long, you get punished?
You either make bushwacking not viable at all, or make virtually no difference because in your case it would not matter if they sit in one place or not one.

And that play style may be somewhat toxic, but is viable and works. And it's not like it's hunt specific problem.
It's like saying that ganking is toxic and we have to do something with that

[green moat]

It's a tough call because the game is really good in its current state.
Most games have a dark zone, and I can't say I love that idea.
Dark sight already gives you position, but snipers can outrange that.
Part of me thinks that weapon composition allows this.
But I don't think it would be fair to punish players for something that's currently just a normal feature of the game.
The teleporting might solve that, or like someone mentioned, a spawn point that moves along the edge of the map, like a train or cart. That would force everyone to move.

[turbid hound]

It's not like you're forced to one extraction either.
And if you think that it is not fair to punish people for the legal ways of playing the game, then what was the point of this discussion?

[green moat]

Craftic I am answering your question in a rational manner point to point.

Here's an idea:

The last 10 mins of the game, a cart appears at the bottom left corner of the map.
Depending which side of the map we're on, the cart will advance along the edge roads and make its way to the opposite corner.
If you are really pinned down by snipers you have an opportunity to use "moving cover" to at least force a reaction.
The snipers can still shoot you and kill you, but they can't force you to wait.
That would not impede any part of the game that preceeds it, but it ads an element which
disrupts the stalemate.
If the team passes the opportunity, so be it. But at least the opportunity is there,
and it's not a one sided hold.

Punishing would be like... adding powers that only one team has (ie dark sight).
Or impeding another team's ability to play.

In this solution we add an outside element that gives the option to change
how the game progresses, and both parties have to make a choice that
occurs specifically at minute 35.

[turbid hound]

Moving cover is actually an interesting idea, but IMO it would be just a gimmick that not that useful and won't be used at all most of the time.
And as we collectively told you, even a team of snipers is not enough to pin anyone dead on point. If you let that to happen, take an L. Or try to do something about that, how to do so was discussed earlier.
Snipers are annoying, but not nearly as bad as everyone perceives them.

Crafik btw.

[radiant river]

this would literally never be useful

[green moat]

There is no we here, I am only replying to you.
The idea was something you asked for, so I gave it to you.

[turbid hound]

I replied to you idea as an individual I was referred to. I just pointed out that idea might not be the best solution, and referenced to the discussion that happened earlier to argument.

And that the problem is not that of a problem

[slim pollen]

Respectfully, it feels like you may have been trying to find some form of vindication due to a problem you could have easily avoided and are now attempting build reasoning for why what happened was a game issue and not a skill issue despite almost all evidence to the contrary.

We all slip up occasionally and make poor decisions in matches (gods know I have) but this really seems like a situation where you should be trying to improve your skills.

Not one where you should be trying to blame the game for your failures.