feedback-discussion

[vital fractal]

Oh and they pen

I get that it’s for PvP mainly but like… do we need a PvP mainly explosive?

Especially when BdB exists or DB exists?

Seems balanced enough there

[hardy coral]

They're perfectly balanced against the dynamites if bulwark didn't exist.

Throwables should have strong potential.

[ripe basalt]

Did you delete your previous post that was in Feedback?

[unborn dagger]

Yeah frags are terribly balanced

[hot vigil]

Yes, strong POTENTIAL, not a free kill on anyone who shares the zipcode of the frag.

[unborn smelt]

Not even then they are IMO, they are tied in blast radius and almost in lethality with the big bundle, tied for furthest throwrange with the dynamite stick, then they apply bleed on top of all that

The only thing dynamite has going for it is destroying doors and dealing more dmg to AI, which i'd argue is not what most people want from a one time use consumable

Not saying frags are super OP in the grand scheme of things - they just overshadow other explosives in basically all categories that matter

[hardy coral]

Hardly a free kill.

[hardy coral]

The kill radius isn't that different to bundle without bulwark and the ability to destroy objects and wire is a big bonus to me.

Sometimes there are doors, shutters, etc which make the lair hold too easy and dynamite quickly deals with that and possibly gets a kill too.

Also you can use dynamite with decoy fuses.

[vital fractal]

You keep bringing up without bulwark

But it’s a 2 point perk that is found in 85+% of peoples trait decks

You can’t ignore that

[hardy coral]

Yeah, which makes dynamite shit.

Frags aren't OP, bulwark is.

[vital fractal]

Bulwark isn’t though, a well placed bdb or db will kill effectively

But frags have so many upsides otherwise because even without bulwark- dynamite is still less useful compared to frags

[hardy coral]

Still crap when it cuts so much effective range on them that the balance between frag and dynamite is completely out of whack.

Without bulwark they're both balanced fine against each other, with bulwark dynamite just isn't worth it.

[vital fractal]

Without bulwark I wouldn’t want either in the game lmao, but that’s what I’m saying

[hardy coral]

[vital fractal]

Bulwark tempers explosives as it should

[hardy coral]

it shouldn't

Makes the balance shit.

Why not just have no bulwark and properly balanced explosives?

[vital fractal]

Yeah but we are beyond that point now

[hardy coral]

How?

They can just rework the perk.

[vital fractal]

To do what

They reworked it once already

[hardy coral]

To just reduce friendly fire explosive damage.

[vital fractal]

Ok now that’s just useless

[hardy coral]

As a 1 point trait that'd be fine.

[vital fractal]

That’d be below bolt seer

In terms of use lmao

[hardy coral]

Can push easier with explosives, use them closer up, use cases.

[vital fractal]

Oh wow, I can get within 4 m of a friendly dynamite that I can just be told wait before push to achieve the same thing

Nah

Frags should just be tuned down

[hardy coral]

Disagree

[vital fractal]

Now an explosive that should be buffed, is explosive Ammo 👁👁 (and taken off uppercut)

Seriously, it’s only use currently is funny meme ammo, open window/door, and clear concertina

It’s pathetic as an ammo type and flare ammo is the better meme

[opaque glen]

ofc

[ripe basalt]

Fantastic, thank you

[broken musk]

Explosive ammo is kinda bad atm

Yes

[brisk timber]

Explosive Ammo is kinda shit in general right off the design table

[vital fractal]

It is, and I think it can be tweaked

[brisk timber]

i dont know, its kind of promotes bad aiming and if overtuned its harassment potential is not fun to play against

so it somewhat needs to be weak

but if its weak its somewhat useless aswell

from a balancing standpoint explosive ammo is something of a lose/lose situation

[vital fractal]

I think, that trying to use it as an AOE ammo shouldn’t be encouraged as a main use***

So

I think to rework it, it should keep some current abilities and be tweaked another way

For example

[brisk timber]

would be cool if there were more stuff on the map to use explosive damage with
so it could have atleast utility
the last days the topic here was breaking walls and stuff
this would be nice to have explosive ammo for

[vital fractal]

1. Currently it seems it has a base ballistic damage + explosive damage, I like this idea- keep it as 60% of the base bullet damage + 40% base bullet damage as an explosive damage type, the ballistic portion has falloff, the explosive doesn’t (however bulwark will lower it, the numbers themselves can be changed but mainly ballistic damage + added AoE explosive)

2. Keep the explosive properties currently of opening doors, windows, insta barrel breaking etc etc- but make the AoE as 1m for compact, 1.5 m for medium, 2 m for long, 3 m for Nitro (the AoE will apply the flat explosive damage with no multipliers to any body part and reduces the further away from center of impact to reduce feet spam)

3. Keep the no Penetration obviously

4. Keep the lowered muzzle velocity + maybe even increase muzzle flash?

5. Allow it to do more damage to bosses across the board, more akin to penny shot as it’s loud, more like to be used in slower shooting guns anyways, and is explosive anyways

6. Add it to a compact ammo weapon, something without fanning- perhaps a bornheim

These changes imo will make it still a useful utility but actually something that can be used in a fight in a pinch without causing console feet spam again

And it won’t be a straight upgrade at all either

(Unlike fmj compact 👁👁)

[late quartz]

The biggest problem with explosive ammo right now isn't that it's balanced poorly, it's that it's not usable on anything that would allow it to be useful

There's a ton of potential for explosive ammo to finish tagged enemies who've taken shallow cover, but the only weapons that have access to it have rather long reloads or it's the uppercut and you're spending an insane amount of money on something that overall ends up being weaker than stock ammo.

The fact that it's not available on any other reasonably accessible sidearms means it has no opportunity to be used in the only way that really makes sense

If I need quartermaster to bring it on anything other than an uppercut I sure as shit ain't bringing explosive springfield over a shotgun or Obrez lol

As Rakki says, there is a lot of potential for explosive ammo to be frustrating to play against. To that end the only major points of "imbalance" that I'd change are entirely removing aim punch from players affected by explosive ammo's AOE, and reducing or removing the lingering smoke/particles afterwards.

[vital fractal]

The aim punch and smoke make sense though, and the changes I suggested would allow it to remain a utility focused weapon- and of course expanding the explosive to compact ammo such as the bornheim does allow for combo shots as you mentioned

[rotund obsidian]

of all the compact guns why on earth would it be the bornheim. that shit is like, the fastest gun in the game besides avto isnt it?

[vital fractal]

I get what you’re saying but it’s 74-80 damage

Even 50% of explosive direct AoE is 40 dmg of which would only apply 40 dmg with a direct hit essentially

Besides low ammo capacity and the fact that bornheim is already kinda relegated to combo side arm already means it’ll just add to the use of the gun + the need for bullet grubber may be a neat balance factor too

[late quartz]

It might "make sense" but it's shit gameplay. It's not an interesting mechanic, it just sort of amounts to weird anti-competitive nonsense.
TONS of Hunt's mechanics "don't make sense" but are great for gameplay and are thus acceptable. It doesn't "make sense" that I can't loot an ammo box twice but like... it's not about "making sense".

Explosive ammo is currently being balanced for "utility", but the reality is that... there just isn't that much crap for it to interact with in the game world? It's not a very valuable set of tasks and there aren't that many more that you can expand it to.

PvE damage is not really that relevant due to the fact that in the overwhelming majority of situations making less noise is more valuable than killing mobs faster.

Useful PvE utility ends up looking like the silenced nagant, bomblance, bow, crossbow, not so much pennyshot LOL

[vital fractal]

My view on explosive ammo is-

It’s a loud utility, as such it lacks the benefits that any stealthy utility tool has and as such to garner other benefits to make up in a unique but yet still useful way

An explosive making you flinch is totally fine game play wise, a puff of smoke also slightly obscuring sight? Also fine, it allows for the blocking of vision for a tactical rotate, retreat, or push- which is extremely unique

PvE damage is relevant when it’s used as an ammo type + utility, if someone brings in explosive ammo- it should do massive damage to AI considering it is an explosive round that is very loud and very flashy, I mean just look at the nitro explosive versus the butcher- that’s what it should be like (of course depending on the size of the explosive ammo)

It’s not to be an upgrade over every ammo in every situation of PvE, but a unique ammo that is still viable in PvP whilst retaining PvE utility in a loud fashion

Just like pennyshot which is catered to AI damage for shotguns, but also has use in PvP

Although Pennyshot may use a buff to be honest, especially considering it’s main draw of ammo increase and ammo pick up increase has been rather nerfed by the rework

[late quartz]

it allows for the blocking of vision for a tactical rotate, retreat, or push
The issue is... it doesn't do any of these things LOL
It's not something that's ever used to block line of sight, it just so happens that if you get shot there's an RNG chance that you might have your vision obscured if the particles aren't nice to you.
We have a status effect that is specifically balanced to CC your vision for being shot... it's called poison ammo.

The smoke is not tuned in a way that is consistent, it's not a balancing factor, it's a "look at our fancy graphics" feature that happens to create dogshit gameplay.
Games will often include these sorts of features because they look cool, but later realize they create unhealthy gameplay. This is one of those cases.

It’s a loud utility, as such it lacks the benefits that any stealthy utility tool has and as such to garner other benefits to make up in a unique but yet still useful way

My point here was that there isn't really enough auxilliary utility you can add to explosive ammo (at least none that's been presented or that I can think of myself) that makes it worth using, even in conjunction with higher PvE damage.
Adding extra PvE damage wouldn't make explosive ammo more appealing in its current state, it would simply be a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Flat out power increases that don't improve a tool's appeal should be avoided as they muddy balance and make later changes more difficult.
I'm not opposed better PvE damage... but it is not the solution to making explosive ammo better, it's just a random pointless buff.

[vital fractal]

How is it unhealthy gameplay?

Also, it’s not a pointless buff- being able to use one round to initiate pushs, check traps, and PvE all in one round at the cost of velocity, pen, and special status is unique to explosive ammo

As for the puff of smoke I get it isn’t a smoke bomb but still, it’s smoke from an explosion- it’s up to you on how to use it, no one is out here criticizing the devs on how the smoke from bdbs can be used as cover for Rezs or how fire can be used as cover for a rez too but it’s been purposed for that and I don’t think that’s unhealthy game play

People complain of not having a way to check for death traps, well you’ve been able to with explosive ammo to check corners for enemies hiding if you truly wish and set off any traps in the vicinity of your shot-

And on top of the utility already provided by explosive ammo, you can actually rely on it in a fight relatively with the changes proposed above

Or you don’t have to worry about world melees if you encounter the boss early on like you would if you don’t have a loadout conducive to the boss

It’s not an end all be all but it takes explosive ammo from Nothing but useless to actually viable

[late quartz]

Untuned visual clutter is generally accepted to be unhealthy for competitive shooters. Maybe you disagree, but I think generally any visual CC should be specifically tuned to achieve that end, and this doesn't seem to have been done for explosive ammo given how inconsistent and happenstantial it is.

You really have suggested any major structural changes aside from the PvE damage... which I think is just sort of tacking on unrelated buffs.
When I say it's "pointless" I mean it's a whole separate niche, not deepening its value in its existing niche. Generally I think making explosive do something unique and interesting would be more appropriate than just going "haha, random buff, it's more valuable"

I don't think just making explosive ammo a boss/meathead killer is a pretty generic unfocused way to make an ammo type technically better without actually adding much value. It's not "useless" it's just extremely low value. Better at more things < better at some specific subset of things

[vital fractal]

Explosive being a:

Loud utility ammunition specialized on ranged building breaching/corner clearing and PvE enemy clearing ability seems like a pretty good subset of things-

Currently at its core I do think explosive ammo is good, it has the breaching and clearing portion of its use down well- but it completely lacks combat use AND PvE use (because fire ammo and especially poison ammo are so much better that it doesn’t make sense)

If explosive ammo was good at either PvE or PvP ammo, then I wouldn’t suggest many changes other than introducing it to compact

But as it stands it’s an ammo type that turns a gun from a gun to tool, and that’s too expensive and too much of a change to ask from an ammo type

I’d love to hear your suggestion for explosive ammo or any ideas regarding it, but I guess my point is

If explosive ammo could just be truly viable in PvE or PvP along with its current specialty, then that would be great but as an ammo with no good use in either PvE or PvP then it will forever never be utilized like it should be

It could be an amazing lair breaching side grade in my eyes if it was buffed to be competitive

[unborn smelt]

Last time i tested it, which was after the last killrange nerf IIRC the killrange was nearly the same as the big bundle - even more than the big bundle if you have bulwark.

That admittedly was quite some time back, but i don't think they touched the lethality of frags or dynamites since

[vital fractal]

With bulwark I was surviving small sticks at 4m, bundle at 6m, and big bundles at 7-8m

Someone should do a comprehensive test and post the distances

[unborn smelt]

I did that a long while back

But only comparative distances between the consumables

Because they had friendly fire dmg reduction, the actual killrange is bigger

But how they compare to each other should still be right

[vital fractal]

Does the friendly fire still apply to self explosives however?

Since the shooting range is how I conduct, and I assume others, conduct most tests for pvp values now

Or, well… pvp mode lol

[empty oasis]

No, friendly fire reduction is no longer for explosions. It does full dmg to you and friends

[late quartz]

It doesn't clear corners well because it leaves you extremely exposed to have that weapon out once a fight starts. It gives you intel which is certainly useful, and is more renewable than a flash or explosive, but its lack of combat potential (which we seem to agree on) means it does a pretty terrible job of filling this niche. It's not even a very good zoning tool for the same reason.
Corner clearing is only really a valid niche if it allows you to follow up effectively on information.

Again, killing PvE is just generally quite low value if tied to a loud sound. All you're really left with is breaking doors, props and wire... which it already does fine but none are valuable enough to carry it.

This is why I think focusing on splash damage does sort of make sense, it's a clear niche, one that has obvious applications, and one that can be tuned aggressively to reduce its broad potential for frustrations.
That's why I suggested changes to reduce its more unbalanced irritating PvP attributes, because it allows you to more aggressively tune it towards dealing splash damage to punish players who play around shallow cover.

Visual clutter and aim punch are both mechanics that are widely considered "anti-skill" or "shutdown mechanics" in shooters because they inhibit another player's ability to fight back. This can make sense for something dedicated to this task, but for explosive ammo it feels like a mistake or a side effect rather than the goal of the tool's balance.
Constraining the damage, limiting it to something like 30~ max on primary weapons and 15~25 on smaller weapons means you reduce the risk of people harassing or chipping away at resources while maintaining its ability to finish players with poor cover.

Reduce explosive damage, increase ballistic damage, further reduce max ammo to discourage spam and harassment.
More ballistic damage and putting explosive on a wider range of small and medium slot weapons means it actually works as a corner clearing tool

[unborn smelt]

Sry am at work... i dunno actually

[brisk timber]

#game-questions #troubleshooting
this channel is to discuss feedback and suggestions

[timid canyon]

Thx, didn’t recognize it till that day, but in the meanwhile I had rainy games. And can confirm. Thanks to your feedback and Crytek to got this happen.

[vital fractal]

They should add more Mace Variant/Trauma Variant weapons into the game

And maybe have the melee variants of some weapons have a small penalty of some sort

As someone who loves the talon variant of both the lebel and romero, I do think it’s strange there isn’t a minor penalty vs the base versions

[little jackal]

a trauma shotgun definitely is long overdue

[royal horizon]

trauma rival when ?

[cunning dew]

@royal horizon trauma mosin sniper with a suppressor when 🧐🤔😂

[hallow pasture]

Avtodolch when.

[queen jungle]

https://tenor.com/view/back-to-the-future-taking-notes-notes-michael-j-fox-im-writing-this-down-gif-16242461

[unborn dagger]

@cunning dew How is increasing its damage to 10 going to help?

[cunning dew]

There's no way to make the choke beetle a better choice than the regular, but it could make it slightly more useful when you get it. The chances are 50/50 when collecting one at a cocoon so at least you could kill someone with it if they were just hit by you & or your teammate using a sparks or Martini. I think that would be a decent deal having it do 10 damage but it still wouldn't be a better pick. Still no one's going to buy it.@unborn dagger

[hallow pasture]

Never ever ever ever did I expect to end up on 50k flat, I expected to go over it last round.. but this is just weird. good stuff. xD

[hallow pasture]

I know huh.

[cunning dew]

@hallow pasture the avtodolch is coming next update!😂

[hallow pasture]

Perhaps Bornheim-Avto (comes with extended mag)

😛

[cunning dew]

@hallow pasture it should come with a variable zoom scope on it as well. Preferably 1-6x wouldn't be too op 😂

[hallow pasture]

Atleast that'd be a long ass reload, dolch got clips.

[hallow pasture]

https://tenor.com/view/satania-gabriel-dropout-gun-anime-gif-8328299

[cunning dew]

@hallow pasture homie knows what's up!

[hallow pasture]

But no really, it's not even a bad idea

Just don't give it clip reloads

Or dualwield

xD

Needs 2 hands to handle

[cunning dew]

Practically a machine pistol... Would deff be crazy 🔫

[hallow pasture]

Not that the bornheim isn't really a semi machine pistol already

It can shoot pretty fast

[unborn dagger]

I mean it's still a remote controlled choke so you have that going for it if your team mate is inside a building that you cant get into or on the otherside of it burning

That and its a pretty good sound trap compared to the first one

[cunning dew]

@unborn dagger I suppose but do you think it shouldn't at least be buffed to be able to kill someone with 10 health? I think it should

@hallow pasture and yeah boss you got a good point

[unborn dagger]

Not really just because 10 health barely takes out a half a small chunk. If it was 25 then sure because at least it would be a more of a threat

[hardy coral]

The choke beetle should have a larger initial cloud.

[rotund obsidian]

i mean stalker beetle used to deal 5 damage lol

[unborn dagger]

Ya but you have bleed and poison on the explosion which is pretty strong

Idk how strong the bleed is, is it light?

[rotund obsidian]

think its medium bleed

[cunning dew]

@unborn dagger so you would say no to 10 but yes to 25 😂 in not asking for it to be good I'm asking for it to be usable

[rotund obsidian]

Does it deal 1 damage right now, or is it 0?

[cunning dew]

It doesn't even come close to the regular beetle but it shouldn't imo that's why I said just 10 damage. At least be able to kill someone who was just hit by a sparks

[unborn dagger]

Because 10 health wouldn't change anything?

[cunning dew]

@unborn dagger how so it could kill people who were just hit by a sparks and Martini

Therefore it would be slightly more useful@unborn dagger which is what my post was about

[rotund obsidian]

I feel like it shouldn't deal any damage, or at least not more than 1. If you want an offensive tool, use the stalker beetle.

Admittedly, the poison sparks + choke combo is funny, and the choke bolt recently got buffed to deal 1 damage so i don't see why the beetle can't. I don't know if it already does or not, though.

[cunning dew]

@rotund obsidian I get that but it's 50% of the spawn rates in cocoon so it's not as simple as just bringing the regular. Most ppl don't bring either but when I get a choke beetle it's practically useless. But yeah I get what your saying

[rotund obsidian]

i felt that way at first but tbh ive probably gotten more use out of the choke beetles

with stalkers i just use them to scout then kamikaze someone to maybe force them to waste heals, but choke i can actually like, put a cloud somewhere that will affect the fight

[cunning dew]

@rotund obsidian that's fair and like I said I'm not trying to make it good just slightly more useful

[analog willow]

@broken saffron LOVE it #game-ideas message

[unborn dagger]

Problem with that is it is just not that practical. You're asking to get a kill with a choke beetle after shooting a player with a sparks or a martini. By the time you slowly throw it and try to travel to that player they have plenty of time to heal. Especially with vitality shots. It would literally just be best to take your sidearm out and shoot him which is immensely faster

[cunning dew]

@unborn dagger bro there's a lot that goes into the scenarios but i'm just saying it should do a a little bit of damage. The premise of the suggestion was to make the choke beetle slightly better and In simplistic terms "buff it" I don't think it's too much to ask for considering it's pretty useless. I see what your saying and that's fine dog. Thumbs down on the post and we good but I think most people agree it should at least be improved in some way 💯 best of luck to ya In the bayou have a blessed one

[unborn dagger]

Right back at ya mang, have a blessed one

[cunning dew]

@unborn dagger 👍

[analog willow]

@prime ibex I actually bring ammo box to 90% of my matches. It's Very useful when running special ammo, and it gives you more ammunition than a crate would

[empty oasis]

I think theyre saying that free hunters shouldnt have them since its not a tier 1 consumable

[analog willow]

Oh, I didn’t know there were different tiers of consumables

[hot vigil]

@prime ibex Yo, free hunters can now get ammoboxes bc ammoboxes got moved down to be a bloodline level 1 unlock :)

[prime ibex]

Still think the ammobox is a T3 Consumable, but w/e. Up to the devs to wave the meta around.

[unborn smelt]

By which metric is it a T3 consumable?

[mental flicker]

@random ice #game-ideas

[analog willow]

Lotta thinkers today 😋 #game-ideas message

[sour kayak]

I posted 4 ideas i made 2 months ago and had alot of positive reactions. Since there are many new players, lets see what they think about. BTW the one i did for hand crossbow they made it with the fire bolt, maybe they had it in mind already but feels good to know how they listen to the community.

[carmine needle]

I'll be interested to see if we do get a Wendigo boss- technically, it belongs to the Native Americans of the Great Lakes and Plains- not those who were found in Louisiana, and while I agree it would fit in thematically, I have my reservations about if it SHOULD be brought in, unlike a WW boss, who could be built off the local cryptid Rougarou, the Wendigo stems from an actual peoples, and I'm not sure it should be appropriated for Hunt. That being said, I'd love to see something somewhat similar to the concept, and I do love the idea of there being a Hunter for the Hunters 🙂

[brisk timber]

If i might add to the wendigo boss:

Collect 3 tokens of the wendigo to get cursed

https://evil.fandom.com/wiki/Twanas

[prime ibex]

@unborn smelt ...what kind of question is that??? Devs got Tiered Hunters, equipment, and consumables. They're trying to reduce the indication of existing Tiered Items, but it's literally set in both code and factor in Hunt.

[ripe basalt]

T3 consumable as in, consumables that come with t3 hunters?

I'm thinking that's what Rango was asking

I don't buy tiered hunters so I don't even know what tier of hunters ammo boxes come on

[prime ibex]

No then. T1-3 consumables are seperate, same with tools and guns.

[unborn smelt]

they have tiered hunters - yes. But "consumable tier" was afaik always determined by bloodline unlock

and well as BigOwOMcCree told you - they mooved the toolbox ammo box to BL lvl 1

[ripe basalt]

I'm confused on why the tier matters to meta?

What is the unlock requirement to the ammo box?

[ripe basalt]

Pfft the potential of a level 1 Toolbox is pretty good

[brisk timber]

i think the basic thought about this complaint is having a $70 consumable on a free hunter
which in return can give a team 2/4 (packmule) items
and increases consumable spam

i think?

but i dont know whats so dramatic about that

[ripe basalt]

But he said... ammobox?

Not toolbox

[brisk timber]

oh ammobox

then i dont even understand less what the fuss is abbout xD

[ripe basalt]

See I was with you Rakki when I first read it

then I reread it

like wait a second, toolbox can give you bundles for example

[unborn smelt]

"can" being the keyword here imo

[ripe basalt]

I'm not saying it's broken or w.e

[unborn smelt]

like sure the potential of a toolbox is high - but it can also give you some kinda useless or low tier stuff

ammo box too tho - I see no reason it should be a T3 only thing

[prime ibex]

I don't really feel like dropping a fat 3 paragraphs just to explain it all. There's Tiers for everything in Hunt. It seems lately the devs are trying to elude the factor that they still exist within the system.

[unborn smelt]

IMO the more support stuff is low in the BL the better

[unborn smelt]

there really isn't, other than the BL unlocks and Hunter skins

and well they kinda mooved the item in question from a T3 unlock to a T0 unlock

[ripe basalt]

I'm simply curious, why does it matter exactly? Do you prefer things to be tiered out for hunters?

[prime ibex]

It's literally how the devs made it. It's an absolute bizarre that a freebie ends up with an ammobox in the recruitment roster, but w/e.

[normal horizon]

with the ammo economy changes it just makes sense really imo

you give up a consumable slot for some guaranteed ammo which should just be a level 1 thing

[brisk timber]

tbh getting rid of the "tiers" in general is a good thing
The game moves more in the direction of equipment to have it dis-/advantages by usecase
making stuff viable in a broad spectrum instead of saying this gun is an upgrade over that other gun

[ripe basalt]

The "tiers" as a learning curve makes sense. But to my understanding of the game and how it's played, it's not really important outside of that.

Let alone touching the meta. Tiers are ignored entirely with Legendary hunters

[brazen shoal]

it aint that deep, nobody cares where it originated. it's a cool cryptid, that's all that matters.

[little jackal]

I wish we could bring an extra consumable for each free weapon slot

so up to 4 extra

I very much enjoy doing single revolver only runs for style points, and losing due to no ammo is so bleh

[hot vigil]

@slender crane interesting suggestion, mostly bc Hunt is usually praised for some of the best weapon animations.
Also ragdolls would actually affect gameplay, downed Hunters always face the direction the got shot from (their legs/feet will always point towards the shooter).

[slender crane]

dont get me wrong, love the game and the weapons, just imagining how hunt would feel if they took a different approach to the game.

[hot vigil]

You need to expand on how they should do that and why it would improve the feel?

Like "animation closer to HLL", in what way?

[soft tusk]

remove rain ty

[analog willow]

@visual anchor I agree, I'd love to have the bow sooner. However, looking at the weapons that are available at level one, Bow would be the best available option for a long while. In fact, if it was unlocked at rank one, a case could be made that it's the best option until level 52 when the Lebel is unlocked

[visual anchor]

I don't have a good reason for it to be earlier other than I really like the bow and waiting that long sucks

[analog willow]

Maybe they could split bow in two? Short bow and long bow? With different stats. That way the lesser option of the two could made available even earlier?

Because I definitely agree, bow "fits" the early game aesthetic, and I'd love to use it much sooner

Bow, Short Bow, Long Bow? Reduce regular bow stats slightly so it can be made available earlier? Short bow has a faster draw time, but less range. Long bow has increased range, but increased draw time?

Long bow special ammo: flame arrows
Short bow special ammo: Barbed (causes bleeding)

^That's all going in suggestions😋

[empty oasis]

Short bow needs different ammo then. Arrows already cause bleed

[analog willow]

These variants were kind of predicated upon changes to regular bow overall, to make it slightly weaker and available earlier in the bloodline

Eliminating bleed could definitely be part of that

[empty oasis]

#game-ideas message

You can already choose your health layout and its free. Why would you reintroduce an option to pay that we just got rid of?

[empty oasis]

No, making the bow weaker is not a good idea. There are only a handful of situations where its strong now as it is

[analog willow]

Feels pretty strong to me

[analog willow]

You can only choose health chunks you've lost. This would allow you to pay trait points to change your health at any time in the lobby

[empty oasis]

Velocity is a 150m/s crawl, You are slow as hell once you draw, ranged with it is useless due to drop and the velocity unless your opponent is an idiot. It's really only strong in close restrictive areas where they cant dodge your arrows as effectively

[empty oasis]

You can go to respec and refund health chunks which gives you back the trait points to buy them with. Meaning you can shuffle the chunks on even a free hunter however you want.

[analog willow]

Oh, interesting! Thanks!

[analog willow]

It's silent, has a very large OHK range (with the trait), and infinite ammo

[empty oasis]

And outside of an ambush, those first two dont matter. Most people wont give you the time to full draw in a fight
The ammo is potentially unlimited but so is the xbow and hand xbow

The bow just isnt all that strong. It's not weak but it's def not strong enough to nerf it much

[glass shuttle]

Please stop suggesting semi auto weapons

[analog willow]

I wasn't recommending killing bow. Maybe get rid of bleed and reduce it's OHK range

[empty oasis]

Those two sentences are contradictions

[analog willow]

Okay 😋

[glass shuttle]

And reverse the nagant carbine buff
Don't understand why they keep making guns easier to use they all should be difficult to use
ADD MORE RECOIL

[analog willow]

Not here to fight

[empty oasis]

This version of the carbine is still nerfed compared to the original

[glass shuttle]

stop catering the game to 40 percenters

I pick one up the other day to test it and it's fucked you can spam put 3 headshots with ease

Out*

[empty oasis]

yeah and then you have limited ammo and a long reload

[glass shuttle]

You can kill a whole team with one go

Who needs to reload

[vital fractal]

I kinda agree, I feel instead of buffing there should be more emphasis on nerfs but with a live service game like this the only thing people like is when “their” equipment gets buffed

The ammo change to long was an amazing departure from that typical buff everything, but still

Things like giving compact rifles more headshot range was absolutely unnecessary, buffing the nagant o’carbine was unnecessary and I think only was done because of the HV exploit that existed

[glass shuttle]

We know for a fact that crytec wants it easier for new players to get kills

[vital fractal]

I do feel like certain aspects should be buffed into viability but overall most items should be reworked and typically nerfed

[glass shuttle]

What was that stat? Something like 40% of players don't get the kill your first hunter achievement lol

[vital fractal]

Lmao

[glass shuttle]

And that's the players they balance weapons around it's a joke they don't even stick around to play the game

[broken musk]

@sour kayak I really like the wendigo idea. Great suggestion. Especially having a wendigo themed hunter, and the wendigo being another potential wild target boss

[unborn smelt]

It's silent - the OHK is okay, but since the nerf the trait barely does anything (10% dmg increase, at the cost of a trait slot and needing to draw longer), and the OHK is kinda unreliable because the Bow has no limb pen, so hitting the arm, for example because they are aiming at you, will fail to OHK entirely.
And the "infinite ammo" requires you to run after each shot and potentially search for it making your moovement slow and inefficient.

Not to say the bow is bad, but it has some pretty significant downsides

[analog willow]

Wasn't trying to say it was top tier. Just trying to find a way to fit into a lower bloodline rank, and maybe add some variants for variety

[vital fractal]

The Bow is very strong when a skilled player uses it,

It’s a high skill floor but extremely powerful weapon

I think it’s fine at rank 56, it seems to be a specialty weapon and as such warrants the mid prestige position it is in

But they should increase the price of the crossbow… been running into that one way too often…

[unborn smelt]

I'd highly doubt the "extremely powerful" part...

Its not bad, but too niche to compete with the actually very powerfull stuff.

Its the only weapon that forces you to slow down before shooting, for a significant amount of time, it really suffers from the lack of limb pen - because the arms blocking large parts of the front and sides of the upper torso is kind of a big deal for it's "high skill ceiling" OHK to body.

A shotbolt is just so much more dangerous because it neither has the speed penalty, nor does it have dmg drop off and it has the limb pen required for reliability

And the hand crossbow can do the silent AI killing really well too, and double as a silent up close OHK really well too, without being forced to slow walk.

And its only a smol slot

[turbid hound]

@opaque glen because it's carbine, and not a full length rifle

[empty oasis]

#game-ideas message

The Martini in game is short. Its the cavalry carbine version

[empty oasis]

https://tenor.com/view/spider-man-we-one-gif-18212100

[turbid hound]

https://tenor.com/view/spider-man-we-one-gif-18212100

[empty oasis]

Top: Mosin and martini henry rifle
Bottom: Martini Cavalry carbine and martini rifle

[steel comet]

Wish we had the non carbine in the game.

[dusky tapir]

the martini henry has brass shot shells apparently

💀

[empty oasis]

They could bring it in with the .303 British cartridge version. That'd be pretty cool

[empty oasis]

Yes and no. It was a Martini action but the barrel was a lot bigger so the ammunition wasnt interchangeable

[dusky tapir]

isn't that the one we have ingame?

[empty oasis]

No, we have the martini-henry ic1 in .577-450
The .303 were called Martini–Metfords

Well, the first rebarreled martini-henrys were. The later rebarreled and new production ones were Martini-Enfields

[knotty ore]

Lol bow is extremely powerful as described. Do you know why? Because it counters shotguns. You can hold tighter angles with a bow. You let everyone push you so that slowing down while drawing isn't an issue. You can fire your arrow very close to the wall and generally you will out trade shotguns. Keep it hush, let people think that bow is niche.

[empty oasis]

You just described niche to a T.....

[mystic ridge]

Bow is actually insane*

*As long as someone is pushing you in a small space where you can hold an angle and already have it drawn

And then even then you could potentially trade *

[hardy coral]

[unborn smelt]

Sure the bow can do that - but a hand X-bow can do that in a small slot too, without being restricted by the slow.

Not even just that, bit of practice and melee can do that quite nicely too, when the requirement is "i let them push me" - and then you only need a bayonet or even tool slot

So yeah - the Bow has its niche. But thats all, it has a small niche where its good (holding close angles, stalthy AI takedowns), but it gets nowhere near as universally good as actual very good weapons at ones disposal

[brisk timber]

its so funny reading all that as a bow main player

"Bow is extremely strong"
...continues to point out one very strong niche case

Hundred Hands sounds good on paper but honestly is most of the time useless
The way it works it just adds extra drawtime for +10% damage cap

The limb damage is also very significant to the point that sometimes it even puts you into a bad situation
Hitting arm is not enough damage to make the mid bleed a strong enough pressure point
While the drawtime + walking speed leaves you extremely vulnerable to someone pushing while you had to get semi close in the first place and now try to get a second shot out.

Aswell as you will always be in disadvantage when it comes to active play
Pushing with bow vs pushing with crossbow/shotgun will always leave you a sec behind
Thats really significant the higher you go in MMR - flickshots and the like are just no thing with a Bow

Then we come to the non existing penetration
More times then not did i even try to shoot through some cracks and got my arrow stuck on some invisible hitbox
Having no pen at all makes you need 100% sightline

The ammo can be retrieved yes
But it also gets stuck more times than i can count or just get lost in the environment in pvp a fight
While some of the special ammos are really few and even irretrievable

[cunning dew]

@visual anchor hey I think your idea should be something the bow can do without need anything special. I would change my aspect to not add a melee to the bow. But to take away dew claw as a perk. Make it a standard function instead of making us spend upgrade points to allow us to melee.

[brisk timber]

Infact i would even argue the bow could use buffs.

[visual anchor]

My idea was making the quick melee a bit better. Maybe adding a bit of bleed or something like that to just give it a bit more versatility up close in panicked situations

[cunning dew]

@visual anchor makes sense man. I'm still on the fence of just taking dew claw away and that being the only melee but I don't hate your idea!

[brisk timber]

Personally i would love to see a hundred hands rework that instead of giving you the damage and +drawtime
it would reduce the draw

[cunning dew]

@brisk timber wouldn't mind that either. Or to at least see how it works!

[unborn dagger]

Yeah that would easily be better. I don't really like traits that basically increase the damage of the weapon just because they're boring.

[cunning dew]

@unborn dagger I agree

[unborn smelt]

i think on the bow it is kinda important because it allows more reliability with limb oneshots

but that's due to the nature of no pen on the bow

[analog willow]

This debate got a little off topic.

The debate with bow was how to make it available earlier in the bloodline.

In it’s current state, if bow was unlocked at level one, Bow with trait would be the best weapon pick until the lebel is unlocked at level 52 (without the trait, it’s not worth running bow at all) This would mean far too many bows in the Bayou. If bow is moved to lower bloodline rank, it will likely need a little rework to make it weaker.

Yes, shotbolt exists, and it should be nerfed so it’s not a OHK when landing anywhere but the head, and maybe the chest.

[vital fractal]

I mean

Shotbolt doesn’t one tap limbs 100%

I’ve ran into too many times that it does like 140 damage or even like 130 damage

That’s on me, and on enemies- and I say those numbers based on looking at my health bad after being hit with no cover

[unborn smelt]

I highly doubt that...

yes the bow is good - but it's not so good it makes everything below a Lebvel obsolete

[vital fractal]

Shotbolt should be a one tap according to the ridiculous shotgun stat of 455 damage but… it isn’t

[unborn smelt]

it is tho

[vital fractal]

Then why doesn’t it one tap on limbs consistently?

I’ve survived it, my enemies have survived it, my friends have survived it

[unborn smelt]

because i think the 450 dmg on shotguns is wrong

[vital fractal]

I had a whole write up on how I think shotguns work, but no one has definitive proof

[unborn smelt]

shotbolt deals 200 flat IIRC

[vital fractal]

Based on?

[unborn smelt]

Oh interesting - they changed the stat

I'mm hop into test real quick and see what the dummy says

[vital fractal]

Yeah that’s what I’m saying, and I’ve already explained how I think it works in like 2 paragraphs…

But that was a while ago

The test dummies say it one taps

[unborn smelt]

otherwise it could just be that it has insane limb dropoff due to some weird reason

[analog willow]

Nothing would be obsolete. It would make the bow a much more popular pick, and for those that are “meta chasers” an argument could be made that that would be their “go-to” weapon until level 52 when lebel is unlocked. The bloodline unlocks are designed so that players unlock better and better weapons as they rank up, and I feel bow wouldn’t fit that trend if it was introduced earlier, in it’s current state

[vital fractal]

Well, that’d be like

[vital fractal]

A 0.25 multiplier on hands lmao

[unborn smelt]

For me it shows 2 hit on the dummy to legs

one only dealing 125 the other the remaining 25

[vital fractal]

What, I hit legs and it did 1 tap…

I’ll have to go back

Busy atm but I need to go back and see this

Besides, it should pen limbs

[unborn smelt]

it does 1 tap - but shows two dmg numbers

[vital fractal]

What the f…

That’s like explosive ammo

[unborn smelt]

so my guess is it incorrectly applies both the initial hit and then the extra dmg later

[vital fractal]

What in the world are they doing with shotbolt

[unborn smelt]

because the shotbolt creates projectiles afgter impact

[vital fractal]

So there’s an impact damage

Then the damage of the projectiles

I wonder if the impact has fall off?

[unborn smelt]

Well the shotbolt is meant to hit smth and deal point blank shotgun dmg to this initial target, if possible

where the bolt impacts it then creates projectiles like a shotgun shot would

to allow it to penetrate surfaces and even players

my guess is that wrongfully both effects hit the initial target on that dummy

[vital fractal]

I know that, but that means- again as in last discussion of this- the reason it doesn’t one tap isn’t because of multipliers but just maybe it spawns the projectiles out of the mesh hit boxes

[unborn smelt]

which afaik would be the correct thing

it's not meant to hit the initial hunter twice

[vital fractal]

Shotbolt is one of the most bugged ammos in the game and no one knows how to code or count for it

[unborn smelt]

that i'm not gonna disagree with at all

[unborn smelt]

and for those that are “meta chasers” an argument could be made that that would be their “go-to” weapon until level 52 when lebel is unlocked.
This is smth i severely doubt...

the only time the Bow was "somewhat" Meta, was during the Light the shadows event

which literally forced people to play it to earn more points in the grind

[onyx edge]

Bow def isn't meta. There's a reason longammo is everywhere, it's because that's the meta.

[unborn smelt]

based on what has been Meta for a very long time - the Meta picks would likely still remain the Sparks, the Uppercut, the semi auto pistols like the Model 92

Also in gameplay the shotbolt to my knowlege should only OHK to chest and head

the reason it is so good at OHK's is because unlike the regular X-bow bolts or Arrows it has limb pen, so an arm stretched up front woun't save the enemy

and less important but still cool - it theoretically has no dmg dropoff, because the dmg is supposed to happen from the shotgunblast triggered on impact, so as long as you hit directly it'll always be like a point blank shotgun shot, no matter how far the bolt itself actually flew beforehand

[onyx edge]

I personally feel the meta is mostly bolt longammo/uppercut

is what i run into most

[unborn smelt]

to be fair the meta loosened a bit - but it was that for years

and a simple BL reduction of the Bow would likely not make it go from only good in 1-2 smol niches to Meta, in my opinion

[dull mason]

Meta is definitely still long ammo but slightly less since the ammo changes

No way in hell bow would become anything close to a meta pick no matter when it was unlocked, idk where that is coming tbh

[analog willow]

In this debate, I am discussing only weapons unlocked before level 52.

Again, this is a debate on how to fit bow into a lower bloodline rank in comparison to the other weapons at those levels

[dull mason]

I get that it has good one tap potential close/mid range, but hitting anything at an even moderate distance requires a lot of skill

Crossbow is so much easier to get hits with, doesn't have to wind up, and more often gets a ohk from my experience

Although obviously it's also a large slot, not a medium slot

[steel comet]

I don't think they should Nerf something that does the same thing as a hand crossbow does.

[unborn smelt]

yes - there's a whole bunch of better guns in there..

The Basic Winnie is quite good early on, especially once you unlock some of the special ammo, The Vetterli is the same. The Sparks is great since ever, the Martini is unlocked really early and does fine until the sparks is available, Romero and Specter are great in shotgun loadouts

[analog willow]

Let’s agree to disagree then 😋

[steel comet]

I don't think bloodrank level unlock is a way to balance a weapon either.
Theres basically 3 player groups, one that prestige, new players trying to reach level 100 and the non prestigers.
Calling something op for making it available early for some people meanwhile another group of people always have access to it, I just find that weird.

[analog willow]

I want to use bow sooner than level 54. That's all this debate was about 😋 (Also, some varients would be cool!)

[hardy coral]

It doesn't need them since any variant would just be too similar to the bow or be edging into the role of the hand crossbow or full crossbow.

[analog willow]

To each their own. I think there's a way to make it work. I'd use the variants, myself. Longbow with flame arrows sounds fun!

[craggy pike]

Maybe a recurve bow that doesn't slow the user when aiming but drops the effective range

I'd use that

Really these weapons need a velocity increase, don't really care how unrealistic it is to make them faster

[unborn smelt]

i mean - but why wouldn't a recurve slow one down

[steel comet]

That's what I wanted too while I was prestiging. But I'm aware that it's a lackluster weapon, it's still fun to play even though it has major drawbacks.

I don't think it needs a Nerf to make it early level.

[unborn smelt]

Bow is fun AF ngl

[craggy pike]

It is for sure, I wish it was decent and fun

[steel comet]

Bow headshots are super satisfying.

[unborn smelt]

i'd say it is decent already

[steel comet]

Not that I can do them consistently

[unborn smelt]

to me the biggest issue is how lackluster the other medium slots are

[steel comet]

Id just give it more drawing speed, and nothing else.

[unborn smelt]

I'd love a special ammo with limb pen...

[craggy pike]

Needle arrows

[steel comet]

The pro is supposed to be that you can take follow up shots. But because of drawing speed that's usually not a case since your first shot is delayed unless holding angle, most people play repeating guns that straight up shoot you faster.

[unborn smelt]

Needle bodkins or smth like that

[craggy pike]

I'd give the bow and xbow like 50m/v more

[steel comet]

Sparks pistol small slot and Springfield compact. This is weird to me.
A pistol that has more damage retention than a rifle.

And that's without fmj

Then again, uppercut did that already.

[craggy pike]

Totally, I've been asking for Springfield compact to be a single slot for forever

Make it coincide with a pirate hunter

[unborn smelt]

no fan of the springfield compact

it's a single shot guns that drops to needing 4 chest shots rather early

because medium ammo

[steel comet]

Well, even as a Springfield as a whole is comparable in my text

[analog willow]

I think it would become the "go-to" choice by a lot of players if it was unlocked at level one (where I'd really like it to be) and thinking from the dev's side of things, they probably wouldn't want that many bows in the bayou (if as many people take it, as I think they would) so they may end up reducing it's effectiveness slightly (reducing OHK range, and making bleed into special ammo) to make other weapon picks more appealing in comparison, and balance out the number of each weapon entering the bayou

[vital fractal]

The crossbow is an incredibly cheap and versatile option,

It’s annoying how used it is

[unborn smelt]

and if i take a sparks pistol a large slot is likely just a far better choice than a bow

hence i'd likely take an X-bow instead

if i really wanna use the bow with another medium slot i usually run combat axe with it

it's not exactly good but it's fun

[analog willow]

LOVE combat axe

[vital fractal]

A sparks pistol is great for primaries that are short-med ranged focused

Shotguns like the slate, or crown

Or levering options like the Winnie don’t have the ranged oomph they need but the sparks pistol gives a nice buff to range

[craggy pike]

It's hard for me to decide what to pair with a bow, do I take a shotgun or consider the bow my close range, or take something like an obrez that is good enough that I have little reason to bring a bow in the first place

[unborn smelt]

Now if i could combine a sabre with a pistol in a medium slot that'd be a diffrent story

i'd play sparks pistol + melee and Bow in a heartbeat

[vital fractal]

Obrez or lefat

Or sluggy shottie

I like the lefat

[craggy pike]

Yeah, but those weapons are good enough by themselves that it almost invalidates the bow

[vital fractal]

Gives you a back up OHK + med range spam

Nah

[craggy pike]

Besides being loud

[steel comet]

I think xbow is greatly balanced.
It clearly show how lackluster the bow is in comparison.
If they would nerf the xbow then all "primitive" weapons would just be a downplay instead of playing firearms.

[vital fractal]

Bow for stealth + special ammo

[vital fractal]

Enh, honestly- stock the xbow is fine but with reload perk it’s a bit strong

[craggy pike]

I want to avoid using the bow as a grenade launcher

[steel comet]

I think the reload perk is fine, it's still single shot.

[vital fractal]

Limiting yourself here mate lmao

[vital fractal]

Yeah but it one taps consistently

[steel comet]

Making it slower will just make people more likely to swap to sidearm

[vital fractal]

And has no ammo issues

[vital fractal]

Which is fine

[craggy pike]

I'm not playing bow and arrow if I'm just throwing grenades and concertina around

[vital fractal]

Fair, it also allows the start of a strong ambush if you don’t miss

[steel comet]

It didn't have ammo issues before they buffed the ammo for xbow, it was a weird buff.

[craggy pike]

I'd give the bow a higher velocity then other primitive weapons, maybe something like 300. That could set it apart from the xbow enough

[vital fractal]

That sounds ridiculously fast for an arrow lmao

That’s faster than bullets in game such as silenced fmj lmao

[craggy pike]

Don't care about realism, hunters are already superhuman

[steel comet]

I don't think the velocity is what brings it down

[vital fractal]

I don’t either lmao

[craggy pike]

150 is painful

[steel comet]

It even has good drop on arrows

[vital fractal]

Bow has great hipfire too

Xbow not but bow yes

[steel comet]

High velocity arrows

It just works

[vital fractal]

spitzer arrow

It’s just pointier

[steel comet]

Let's go, finally limb pen

[craggy pike]

There's plenty of different ways the bow could be improved, I think speeding up the reload would be nice, and not slowing the player down as much when ADSing would be great QoL changes for a start

Also automatically having an arrow ready when switching would be nice

Bow should never feel clunky, but it does for me

[steel comet]

The problem is the movement. While people can run, snap shot and immediately keep running.
That's not something you can do with the bow.
In drawing mode you have the walk speed of a normal hunter, you can't make use of sprint before and after you shoot.

It's so awkward to push with the bow, instead of going in quick you're just non sprinting in, static hitbox

[sharp arrow]

@opaque glen The Martini Henry in hunt showdown is the Carbine variant

[steel comet]

The clunky part is how ready the next arrow is delayed and inconsistent

[craggy pike]

Absolutely

[steel comet]

After shooting once, the next arrow takes forever to ready up

Before you can even draw

[craggy pike]

I have to mash reload when switching and pray

If you fire an arrow, switch off and then switch back to the bow the hunter should automatically ready another arrow, even if that's unique behavior the bow deserves it

[unborn dagger]

Yes but why not just have it as a buff at that point to the bow if that is needed? Things like reducing drawtime or even giving the bow penetration through thin walls would be better imo and give more fun gameplay.

[unborn smelt]

all it would need for the reliability is limb pen - wallpen is not really important

if the reliability ios done via allowing penetration, or via higher dmg really mnakes no diffrence IMO

[little jackal]

bow spitzer

[unborn smelt]

IMO the biggest issue the Bow has is not even the speed penalty - even tho that's quite restrictive in of itself...

The biggest issue is the missing limb pen. Yes the bow has a nice theoretical OHK range of 25m to upper torso

but we shouldn't forget that upper torso is obscured greatly by the arms holding the gun.

so you really only have the back part of the upper torso as a "good" hitzone, the sides and front are in large parts obsured by the arms, where an arrow deals only 140 dmg even in point blank range

[steel comet]

I don't see why it shouldn't have heavy bleed.
Even the hand crossbow got medium bleed.

[unborn smelt]

the lower torso that's not obscured only has a OHK range of ~15m, which is still good for a 2 slot, don't get me wrong, but not nearly as good as the Bow sounds on paper

because that puts you into shotgun danger range

Hundred hands with the 10% dmg increase does improove the situation, allowing the bow to kill to arms at up to 7m in one hit (with the first bleed tick), and increases the lower torso OHK to around 20m (with the first bleed tick), but it's not a "flat dmg buff" either, it requires you to draw the bow for longer which means reduced RoF, larger delay before you can shoot and longer periods of slow walking if you want the benefit of hundred hands

[cunning dew]

@shadow breach i like you second idea about the trait with flies above the bodies. However I think it would make it weird if it was a trait. I think maybe they could add flies on bodies after they haven't been revived for like 5 mins. Then you could add a perk for maybe 1-2 points that you don't have flies above your body if you are downed. I think this would be a Great way to add a system for finding bodies and give people a way to combat it if they do choose.

[shadow breach]

I'll admit I snuck it in as a secondary idea, I'd considered it in the past as just a conditional effect but due to my original post being about the special mob darksight traits I had considered making it a trait to balance it, perhaps if the conditional effect were to be after 5 minutes has elapsed, but a 1-3 cost trait would reduce it down to 30/60/90 seconds or instantly as it shouldn't really pose any significant benefit to pvp play

[cunning dew]

@shadow breach yeah I get what your saying, all in all good idea with a few tweaks imo! See ya around 🤠

[analog willow]

I think that warrants it's own post. I'd love to see the flies buzzing around bodies after an extended period of time, with no trait needed

[pliant wren]

Recurve bows due to their design are usually made of much less and lighter materials than long bows. A long bow is usually between half as tall to 3/4ths as tall as the person shooting it. A recurve bow of half the size can exceed the power of most long bows. Because of their smaller size, it's a shorter distance to pull back for full draw, however, that also makes it easier for your aim to go off as you're firing. So it would make sense for you to be able to move faster while aiming, but your sway would also be way worse.

[empty oasis]

I would say that the movement debuff comes from maintaining a draw against whatever draw weight in game bow is

If you wanted a recurve with the same damage then it'd have the same draw weight and require the same effort to hold back leading to the same debuff

[queen jungle]

@autumn stump What exactly are you referring to by suggesting to bring back casual queue?

[pliant wren]

But the fatigue of carrying a using a bow is 2 fold. It's the draw, and the weight. When you pull back on the arrow and the string goes tight, the weight of the bow rests on both your arms, because the bottom string of the bow is actually lifting the bow to a certain extent. So while the draw is still the same, the weight of the bow is lessened because it is so much smaller, meaning it would be easier to shoot even at the same poundage.

And a second reason the long bow slows you down is cause if you're walking, there's a good chance your legs will hit the bottom of the bow and send your aim off. For a 70lb draw bow, they're usually around 5 feet 8 inches long. Even if you're 6 feet tall, the bottom of that bow when you're drawing it is still around knee height. You don't have that issue with recurve bows.

[empty oasis]

Sure, but these aren't long bows(english warbow). You can tell because of the size as compared to the Hunter and that you can use them while crouched.

That puts them at smaller hunting bows(american indian) and as such they'd be roughly the same size as a smaller recurve.

The slow would be from the strain of holding the full draw not the weight of the bow itself

[autumn stump]

if i recall bounty hunt used to be separated between 2 modes much like old random contract and choose-your-contract. one would affect your kd and other stats and the other wouldnt i think it was before or around the time of up and down arrows to display mmr. it was such a good system; i was able to play the game while bringing stupid loadouts and mess around without having to fuss over stats. I would switch over to the stat affecting mode when i wanted to be competitive and bring stuff like mosins

[empty oasis]

There did used to be the random contract and specific contract bounties but both affected your stats. There was also mmr matchmaking and free for all matchmaking where a trio of 6* could go up against 2* since it was just based on filling a lobby

Before that, Quickplay (now sole survivor) didnt affect your main stats and since there was no mmr it didnt affect that either
During this time there was no mmr at all so you'd have high skill players wiping the lobby almost every time and the lowest kd could match against the highest

[pliant wren]

"That puts them at hunting bows and as such they'd be roughly the same size as a recurve." That just means the bows our Hunters are using are underpowered compared to any actual long bow or recurve. A basic hunting bow that is the same size as a recurve cannot be as powerful as a recurve, due to their design. That means that our hunters are probably using bows with a draw weight of under 40 lbs. (Which is probably why they don't kill in a single hit.) A Recurve of the same length could hit 40 lbs of draw weight in a significantly shorter draw distance, meaning that recurve bow's rate of fire would either be significantly faster, or with the same draw animation it's shots would be much more powerful.

That's also not factoring that many countries used recurve bows barely longer than 3 feet tall from top to bottom for horse archery. So, if they wanted to put in a bow that didn't hamper movement speed while aiming, a recurve design could easily do that.

[empty oasis]

The weight of the bow is negligable either way. The strain from drawing and holding is where the debuff would come from and if the draw weights were the same the debuff would be the same

[autumn stump]

i know what youre talking about thanks for reminding me, I might be mistaken but im almost positive that free for all didnt affect stats including mmr like you said. ive been playing since june 2018 so i might be remembering wrong theres a lot thats been added and changed over the years

[pliant wren]

At 40lbs or less, it really shouldn't be much of a strain for most of these hunters, definitely not the jacked ones like Carcass Gun Runner. Children's training bows are 25 lb draw weight. So the movement debuff isn't there for 'realism,' it's there for game balance.

[steel comet]

There was MMR back then. The stars update only gave us transparency on what MMR you are, your team and your opponents.

[empty oasis]

Im talking before even the up/down arrows

[steel comet]

https://www.huntshowdown.com/news/hunt-s-new-skill-based-matchmaking-system-explained

2018

Same year as the early access hit steam.

[empty oasis]

yeah, during the beta iirc. but there wasnt an elo system in place originally

[steel comet]

Before November 2018 yes

It's basically a whole new game in comparison to back then.

[steel comet]

You're not slowed down while drawing the bow.
It's a gameplay mechanic where you're locked in an animation that prevents you from sprinting.

So you don't have the same movement luxury as almost every weapon in the game. Where you can sprint - shoot - sprint.

On top of my head these two situations gives you slower walking speed.
Terminus levering slows you down from the moment you hold down the fire button

[unborn smelt]

I know what a recurve does. But you still need to be drawing that bow, and with those recurves a clean release is far more important because the recurves tend to twist and reduce accuracy a lot if they do

Because of that i don't think that you coule moove faster with those

(Also remember in horseback archery the archer can concentrate on clean technique, because the horse is doing the mooving fast part)

And we also shouldn't forget that the bow in hunt id loosely based on the smaller native american type bows (regular "primitive" bows or D-shaped composite bows, like backed with sinew for example), not longbows - so the main determining factor for how mobile the bow is, is size, where the diffrence is not all that big, if noticable at all.

Now what is true is that a recurve of the same poundage/way for acceleration/same weight of the arrow, would shoot faster arrows in a less pronounced arc, but it wouldn't necessarily be more mobile...

[pliant wren]

Yeah, I feel like the best niche for it would be a bow that has faster draw, flatter trajectory, but more sway. A more short range bow.

[native kiln]

Will Crytek share at some point what/if there is something being done for improving the anti cheat? The RU servers became a sanctuary of cheaters

[hot vigil]

Also what I've read and researched it doesn't seem like the Native Americans had bows for war and bows for hunting, it was all the same.

[unborn smelt]

I mean why would they - not like they need to shoot through metal armor, and ~50 pounds is plenty for killing animals and humans

[hot vigil]

Exactly, just to drive in the point that the bow(s) of Hunt are inspired by native bows, so it wouldn't make sense to have "small bow" and "large bow".
As the natives only had bow :b

Ofc you can take an european bow, but not really something that was used in 1890's Europe.

[oak plaza]

The anti cheat is EAC but yes they could do some improvements on their side aswell.

[brisk timber]

The concept of "long bow" is romanticised by many anyway
The longbow was a weapon of the common people in britain in middleages because it was required to learn to shoot with a bow
Those bows had to be sturdy, simple, mass produced and effective
Its so to say a blunt solution in the term of archery

The longbow was a bow for war - for a soldier within an regiment

so
The Bow in hunt is fine and the only thing it could use is hundred hands reduce drawtime to make it more effective in pushing scenarios
We dont need any more variants or the like

[hot vigil]

@formal ether damn, Stam shot is already S-tier and a stable pick of many people's loadout, no need to damn buff that thing further :v

And while we are at it, I think stamshots and traits like conduit is a mistake for the pace of Hunt.

[formal ether]

Really?

I always think it's lame when an enemy team is on the opposite side of the map and all you can do is sit and spin.

[hot vigil]

Yeah, well, that ain't the fault of the stamina system.
Just an inherent factor of an extraction shooter.

not stamshots can really make up for that.

[formal ether]

I still think it'd be neat to have a proper catch up mechanic for people to far away.
I see your point though.

[hot vigil]

Well, no matter what you can reach any point of the map as soon as a banish start.

And still get to it before it is done banishing

Soo

[formal ether]

That's fair.
I was thinking more like when you are chasing down an extract team or lthe like.

[unborn smelt]

I wouldn't make a blanket statement as broad as "the natives (of which there are many diffrent tribes) only had bow (where i'm rather certain there were significant diffrences between tribes too)"

[hot vigil]

Well, you have greyhound for that.
Also buffing stamshots doesn't help on that, just makes it even more mandetory, bc everyone needs stamshots to outrun each other.

[unborn smelt]

I'm not well versed with native bows, i admit, but with the inventions across europe and asia i know off i'm not convinced the native americans just stuck to one thing

[formal ether]

Yeah that'd get icky I suppose.

[hot vigil]

Very true, but as I said, as far I've researched and looked into.

[hot vigil]

That said a healthy change to Stamina would be to divide the two stamina systems a littler further.
Right now we have the running/jumping/mobility stamina bar, which is hidden, but when depleted your Hunter will sprint slower and you'll get the little lung icon.
And then we have the melee stamina that gets drained by melee attacks, which is visible.
My main issue with these stamina system is that the melee stamina regen is stopped if you jump/sprint/vault.
Think it would be a little better if it worked like this:
When you start regen melee stamina, if you do a "mobility" action, instead of completely stopping the melee regen, it just slows down (and ofc speeds back up as soon you stop doing the mobility action).

That would still mean you need to take a slight "break" to make it start regen, but it doesn't lock you out from vaulting or sprinting.

[brisk timber]

We dont need an overall 10-20% running speed boost across the board AND then tied to a stam shot

that would make stam shots such an mandatory thing to have it would be annoying

on top it would just straight up boost any close combat loadout

some days ago i made a suggestion for dividing the sprinting we have now in a jog + a real sprint
#game-ideas message

So while im also for increase short term sprints to enable a more cover based traversal instead of boring shift+w

this comes atleast with some downside and is not a straight up buff

BUT you will have a very hard time to sell any fast mechanic to the folks here enjoying hunt like its their retirement geriatric home 😄 😄

[tough pumice]

Can someone tell me why there is rain/fog all the time?

[empty oasis]

Because someone thought is was a good idea to have a high chance of rain (higher than everything else but still lower chance than daytime™️) after having 24/7 rain toward the end of event

[tough pumice]

Nobody like this anymore

They forced people to play rain because the spend to create it

[empty oasis]

Nobody is too strong. Lots of people like it but with it were way less common, some are fine now, and some want it constantly

[tough pumice]

Yeah, shotgun and bushwookie loves it

[unborn dagger]

Because it's rng?

[tough pumice]

And all weathers have the same % of occuring, right? :>

[crystal plume]

No, low visibility ToDs have a lower chance

The exact current %s aren't public

[turbid oxide]

I saw this online and it reminded me of a recent dev talk about weapons on game

Production started in 1875, would you guys be okay with something similar in hunt? They are very similar to the derringer in game, but with a revolver cylinder

Edits because I was able to find the gun I was talking abouf

Also, 1 slot quad derringers is a really fun idea to me

1 slot dual quad derringers**

[analog willow]

^That one's more of a #game-ideas post. There's a formatting requirement there, so be careful, otherwise the bot will remove the post

Great idea though!

[turbid oxide]

Thank you again, I just realized I forgot to add my idea of adding the option to dual wield derringers/ the "bicycle gun" asweel

[turbid oxide]

Does a bot automatically react to new posts in #game-ideas ? I hit post and immediately got 3 reactions.

[analog willow]

Yep!

[analog willow]

@grim wolf Great analysis! #media message

Throwing another thought out there: I'm not sure of the actual numbers of reshade users, but many were using it because they don't like how dark the night maps display, and the ban may have actually pushed a larger percentage away from the game due to the frequency of dark maps at the time of the ban (a bit of a rough entry back into normal visuals)

[vital fractal]

I would adore darker nights than current

Make lighting equipment actually usable outside of some lairs currently

[analog willow]

That would be fun!

[vital fractal]

I get that some people would complain they aren’t equipped for it but like… you’re not always equipped for every situation anyways

[analog willow]

Maybe that specific condition would auto add some lighting equipment as an exclusive feature of that variant? That way everyone could bring any build they want

[vital fractal]

Mmm, idk

[vital fractal]

Either way, need to make night actually spooky again

And I’d love an AI update so that they are actually a major hassle instead of the minor sound traps they currently are

Dogs are the scariest AI currently, everything else is more of an inconvenience at the moment

[unborn dagger]

@broken musk a blood moon would be badass

[vital fractal]

As a console player I enjoy the lack of reshade so

That’s a Crytek issue

[brisk timber]

this probably sounds better on paper than actually ingame
Nights will always tried to be circumvented by gamma settings and the like
people who dont use this are even more at disadvantage then
Thats why nights were brightened up in the first place

AI was harder before aswell and they were made easier
Its extremely frustrating to get shredded by AI while pvp
or even worse while cleaning it getting hs'ed by some silencer or sniper whos aim is only to ruin your day

overall the more you slow down the game the more rat-play benefits from it

[vital fractal]

Tbf the videos I’ve seen over reshade, it definitely was a problem

[brisk timber]

i wouldnt mind if this would be some extra queue like some form of Nightmare/Hardcore mode

[vital fractal]

Thing is AI are pushovers in this game bar very rare circumstances and Dogs

Yeah, I would enjoy it if you didn’t deal with AI during a fight- you got punished for it

[brisk timber]

I mean AI still is punishing if you dont handle them
They can disrupt your pvp and divide your focus
On their own they are just little hurdles but no real danger

But i think thats exactly what is healthy to not make the game frustrating

There would be much more people who would just go manhunt and try to push over people handling AI otherwise

[vital fractal]

People manhunt anyways, seriously it’s ridiculous how people ignore bounty just to pvp some more lmao

[brisk timber]

Yea i agree

[vital fractal]

Also given how hyped up the enemies are in the lore, it’s a bit of a let down in game

Seriously, the AI have been essentially earmarked as “make noise this route or no”

[brisk timber]

Well like i said, they were tougher before

But just imagine you just fight out some mini boss fight with some armored
and then you suddently get HSed from some bush because you were stuck on this shit AI

its an utterly frustrating experience

[vital fractal]

Well, getting headshot from a bush is always frustrating but

At the end of the day, it would be your fault for being a target

[brisk timber]

sure, i mean. we can all go sneaking in the bushes
if thats what you like

i dont

[vital fractal]

Don’t have to, all I’m saying is- if you get shot, it’s usually because you messed up somewhere

Which video, lmao I didn’t say a specific one

[brisk timber]

Arent we talking about stronger AI?

i mean

stronger AI would mean i would have to focus more on it

more time, more firepower, more exposing myselfe

whatever

[vital fractal]

Yeah, you dealt with the AI but in the process did it in a manner that was suboptimal- hence you allowed yourself to be shot

But that’s fine, considering how easy it is to ignore AI in this game

They need more spice

They need to be more dangerous

[brisk timber]

Im not playing this game for AI at the end of the day
Any AI you will find its weakspot in one day or two
Making them too strong will just result in avoiding it alltogether or making it more dangerous
So you either would increase people way more sneaking around and looking for easy targets
than actually player advancing the gamestate

[vital fractal]

I feel that’s too black and white, and I disagree

[brisk timber]

Bushwookies and Snipers would thrive again

[vital fractal]

Perspectives are different here so, I don’t know what to say going forward other than stating my opinion in this discussion

[brisk timber]

Too black and white?
I dont think so
Im not really into dealing with some super power Immolator who decided to especially fuck my day up vs the dude standing 5m next to me
AI needs somewhat to be of quick work to not make it a 1vs2

[vital fractal]

AI shouldn’t be so boring though either

[brisk timber]

it shouldnt be a deciding factor in pvp aswell tho

thats extremely anti climatic

[vital fractal]

To you

Having to fight off a horde and deal with a team- now that sounds interesting

[brisk timber]

Maybe you should play some MMO or Soulslike i guess 😄

plenty of strong AI there

[analog willow]

I'd love a horde after all bounties have left the match

[vital fractal]

Or I can stay with a game I genuinely adore and voice my opinions in the discussion chat- we all know 90% of the purpose of this place is to let players blow off steam and shit post anyways

[brisk timber]

That sounds interesting tho

[vital fractal]

I think when it’s being banished sounds about right, sculptor would be pissed one of his works is dead

[unborn dagger]

Agreed that it shouldn't be boring, I would love if ai were as strong as before. Would make them much more terrifying

[brisk timber]

The only AI that i would agree with to be stronger ...or well lets put it
to be mechanically more engaging would be Bosses

i wouldnt mind if there would be some rare stronger versions of some AI tho

[ripe basalt]

Rakki wants quick-time events in his boss battles

[brisk timber]

hell at this point i would even take that tbh

i mean scrapbeak and assassin are somewhat good enough

but the butcher is an offense to anyones skill 😄

[ripe basalt]

I think it's how the butcher just lumbers around as you fight it

[vital fractal]

So you’re saying reshade bans essentially did nothing?

Reshade didn’t do, anything at all?

[unborn dagger]

One of the fun times I've had in COD's Dmz mode is that AI were fun to fight against. Ik both games are trying to go for something different but it was still a good time while also dealing actual players

[ripe basalt]

Reshade was a problem and had exploits.

[vital fractal]

Choke, sticky, slap- dead

Butcher really was the tutorial boss lmao

[ripe basalt]

Addressing reshade didn't require dev time to fix. There are a handful of other exploits that Crytek are aware of that do require Crytek to fix, not EAC to add to a list.

[vital fractal]

That was my understanding as a console player but apparently Eddie here disagrees so- who am I to say, as a console player

[brisk timber]

The Reshade ban at this point wasnt about reshade anymore i guess
More about taking a stance

[ripe basalt]

Everyone is going to disagree with whatever changes are provided anyways. The issue is stating "I disagree because it did nothing" which would be entirely incorrect.

[ripe basalt]

Both. A stance on third party and the exploits it provided as a very popular program.

[brisk timber]

Yea it was definitely needed for the sole reason to give players that message that we dont want that kind of mindset here

If some people are still determined to find their little exploits and stuff so be it
its a cat and mouse game at the end of the day
but the reshade thing was too open and too casual to let it go further

[ripe basalt]

This wouldn't have as "big" of an issue with a stance was taken much sooner

So it wasn't as popular

"all" is a no.

And this is the common blanket statement from the defence on behalf of thirdparty programs

[vital fractal]

[ripe basalt]

Thirdparty programs, string of issues connected to it

And that's your opinion, but your opinion is not based from Cryteks point of view.

[brisk timber]

Only "cosmetic" in a game where half the trouble is spotting your enemy as quickly as possible

[ripe basalt]

Internally, there was issues with reshade. Whether that be program wise, application, or community feedback.

All were taken into consideration.

ALL exploits are not useable.

Covering all your bases with "well hackers are going to hack"

"Exploiters will exploit in other ways"

So therefore, if any of these things are tackled by Crytek it's a political move because they will find work-arounds?

That just doesn't make any sense.

If that's the case, nothing should be done period.

You make statements about the exploits that REQUIRE EAC work-arounds. Those are workarounds already. There were exploits that didn't require any work arounds related to Reshade.

The work arounds still exist, sure. That's up to EAC to fix

Adding Reshade to list was a request from Crytek to EAC

Not all of them, no

You keep saying ALL

Also, there are exploits within reshade that was being used by other programs. No different Nvidia filters

Filters got the same opt-out well before Reshade

If it's applied to one, might as well apply it to the other

The accessability to filters was opt-in originally

Yeah, those exploits are Crytek's problem

I do not disagree with you there

Hopefully some of the functionality will return with the Engine upgrade

To provide better tools that Reshade once filled

Correct

End of the day, Them request EAC to block reshade for hunt was easier to address than the exploits in-game

Regardless of who we are, that's simply true

I don't agree with it, but it's what happened

[brisk timber]

We lost a lot?
ah so you were a reshade user
i see

We basically lost nothing

Changing colors and stuff like that in a competitiv shooter where you have to spot people is an inherit advantage
People stand way more out agaisnt green trees than a grey coat against grey trees

if you dont see that "only cosmetics" isnt only costmetics you missig a big point already

Every half serious fps has progs like reshade banned

[crystal plume]

And Hunt doesn't NEED it either 😄

You dislike how the game looks

Doesn't mean it's objectively bad

I much prefer the look of Hunt over many of the other modern triple A games

Since I prefer atmosphere over raw graphical power

And Hunt nails that a lot better than a lot of other games

[brisk timber]

oh lord this so much
nowadays every second game looks like fortnite or overwatch

[crystal plume]

I bet you have

Either way, I think it's time to stop pushing your own opinions as the objective truth

People have preferences, and that's fine

Forcing your preferences down others throats, not so much

If anything it makes your points seem less worthy of even listening to

[brisk timber]

https://tenor.com/view/linus-sebastian-ltt-twch-tips-gif-20475951

[vital fractal]

Using Linus as a way to express emotions rn isn’t the best choice, especially when it comes to etiquette of how to act but I do agree lmao

[unborn dagger]

People's idea to making a game look good is make it vibrant as possible

[brisk timber]

Well half the convo is missing and my reference point for that gif aswell

Hahaha that convo now reads like diiba is scolding me

[broken musk]

For sure

[daring isle]

If you want your game to resemble something that requires some skill, the game devs need to have a closer look at fanning/levering/duelies spam. Nobody enjoys moving around and walking into someone sitting in the corner, basically playing with one hand and dieing to them. I understand brining new players in and traits being a way to upgrade your hunter but nothing fun about how a lot of the player base uses them.

[brisk timber]

Nothing about it is unskilled.
Fanning/Levering/Dualies can be played pretty accurately depending on the gun used with and managing the range used at.
This whole argument also getting even more absurd when shotguns exist and you dont even mention them.

A shotgun can make quick work in one shot with all those and nobody bats an eye

The only case i somewhat agree with is chainpistol fanning which is somewhat of a noob trap anyway

[daring isle]

Shotgun they miss, and they have a time before they can shoot again. It is basically a pocket semi auto.

Special Officer describes you well, my friend.

[analog willow]

Let's not get personal😋 Just discussing game mechanics

[brisk timber]

Nothing to get personal over.
You come here to discuss. You get counter arguments. Nothing to get pity about.

[daring isle]

I didn't say you were Special, you did, in your name. Lcking the intelectual capacity to see the differences between shotguns and fanning, levering, duelies which is RNG is, well, special.

[brisk timber]

Oh now im lacking intelectual capacity because i doubt your take...okay

Maybe post in #feedback

Nobody talks back there

[daring isle]

Facts are facts, have a good day my super special legendary legend

[brisk timber]

oh definitely

Playing some winfield with levering always lightens my mood

Should try that aswell @daring isle

I feel like this chan could use some opt in role with code of conduct attached. Not the first time people get angry about stuff here

[daring isle]

Stop being so soft, you observations were poor and as you said, you get counter arguments. I called you what your name implies. Nothing wrong with that.

[analog willow]

That's enough.

Best not to respond Rakki❤️

[brisk timber]

You still getting personal. What has my name to do with anything about this. Cant have a proper discussion?

[daring isle]

Yeah Rakki

lol

That's Special Officer Rakki to you @analog willow

Show some respect and use his title

[analog willow]

[Gives you a hug] 🙂

[daring isle]

❤️

Right back at you friend 🙂

[brisk timber]

Ok well lets leave it at that

👍

[daring isle]

One for you too bro [Gives you a hug] @brisk timber

[brisk timber]

Get lost 😂

[daring isle]

Oh, so offensive, where is the mod around here 😦

Mr Mod, he didn't hug me back!

Now my feelings are hurt

[brisk timber]

Tbh

Your take was stupid
Probably you got wrecked and needed to vent

L2p git gut

[analog willow]

This channel is for Feedback relating to Hunt

[brisk timber]

And @analog willow stop injecting yourselfe into every second convo like some mediator. You do this every damn time

[daring isle]

Neanderthals wouldn't understand 😉

[brisk timber]

Doesnt help anyone except yourselfe

[late quartz]

A big difference between fanning/levering and shotguns is that you retain your ability to fight accurately (without RNG) at all ranges.

Shotguns are very powerful in close quarters, but they make a lot of sacrifice for that

[brisk timber]

Sure mate. Skillissues on your side

[late quartz]

Most people don't like the C&K, not because it's got the best range or the best chance to one shot, but because a missed shot isn't really punishing for the player using it.

That's a pretty valid reason why one might find fanning/levering more oppressive

[daring isle]

@brisk timber Need to have a read of this comment, slowdown, read it again a few times and try to understand 😉

[late quartz]

Also, game's got aim punch, which means being shot in the arm or something by a "spamming" opponent makes you feel even less able to fight back

[brisk timber]

I agree but nontheless arent those things completely rng based. I can aim and hit consistently pretty darn good with a winny levering or conversion fanning in their optimal range
They still need atleast a HS or 2tap to kill tho
They are not unskilled whatsoever

[brisk timber]

Youre boring troll.

[late quartz]

Skillfulness is relative. The issue with these traits is that they allow you to be very sloppy, don't require good accuracy, and don't punish you for mistakes

You can play fanning/levering more or less skillfully, but overall it is a comparatively low skill floor tool in this game

[daring isle]

They are unskilled because of the magazine size and that your fire rate is semi auto. That is the imbalance. So you can fight any range and if they get close, sit in a corner and then click as fast as you can when they appear. i don't understand how you can't understand Special Officer.

[brisk timber]

Id rather get 2tapped by a winny levering
Than OHK in 0.1sec by a shotty

[daring isle]

Have you got a carer we can contact to explain this to you?

[late quartz]

Skill floor is the important part here. Having a very low skill floor with a reasonable/average skill ceiling means you could potentially express skillful play, but you don't need to

Jesus christ y'all gotta chill

Rakki is perfectly capable of having a reasonable conversation

Y'all do not seem to be LOL

[brisk timber]

Whats the problem with that when you can get one shot with other loadouts. Most shotguns make quick work of those corner sitters anyway

[daring isle]

Rakki thinks he is good so he is argumentative and doesn't care about being logical 😉

[daring isle]

They would be fighting with an uppercut or something hard to use for mid to long fights.

That is the difference, friend

[brisk timber]

Yea you always trade one strength for another.
Fanning or Levering a subpar closecombat options that only shines if the real closecombat loadouts miss
So the miss of your enemy is what enables you to use those effectively in the first place

It boils down again to you having skill issues

[late quartz]

Most of Hunt's arsenal has, historically at least, had a pretty consistent pace and rhythm to it.

The slow rate of fire most of its guns is one of the things that makes Hunt really unique from other games, a missed shot can mean several seconds before your next one.

Because of this, the way players peek and use cover is very different from other tactical shooters. It's safer to be out in the open for longer because much of your time spent looking at an opponent will be time they can't actually kill you.

High RPM guns, fanning/levering included but also things like the officer or Dolch, break that rhythm and lead to situations where one player is CONSTANTLY under pressure without being able to reciprocate. There isn't the same dance as a typical gun fight, you're put on a very strict clock where you need to play much more carefully than the other player who can afford to spam without any real risk if they miss several times in a row

That's a big part of why these tools feel unpleasant to play against, the asymmetrical pressure that you can apply over time

The reality is, these aren't subpar close combat options. They're incredibly effective. They're not the absolute most min/maxed into the niche, but they're extremely far to the right of the power curve. Saying "well shotguns are better" doesn't really speak to the specific unique balance concerns of these tools in a greater context

[brisk timber]

fair
But thats your personal taste. Which is fine.
But the starting point was they are low skill and rng. Which is just not true. Atleast not completely.

I see so many people just utterly fail with levering or fanning

[daring isle]

It isn't true and you just contradicted yourself lmao

Not true and the at least not completely

Back to school

[brisk timber]

🥱

Welp always fun arguing with you @late quartz
And @daring isle could take notice of how this goes in a chill manor

Allrite head to bed. Gn8

[daring isle]

Sleep helps move things from your short term memory to your long term memory, best of luck Special Officer.

[queen jungle]

@dense scaffold You should only ever use Shift+W when you don't care about making noise and others setting up an ambush to kill you. Sprinting in Hunt is essentially announcing yourself and your location to the whole map and meant to be punishing compared to moving around carefully.

[leaden nacelle]

I am thinking about "delete the game" just because rain, fog, etc... these should be wild contracts. it is not fair to try to play this game without sound clues, visual clues.... if i want to play wildcart so i can, but you cant push people to play with high freq. rain conditions... i got 4000 hours.... this is my feedback. whenever you make a good thing, you sk.... it with these pushs....

by the way game is losing players.... think about "WHY"

[queen jungle]

It's not, Hunt had a new all-time peak with the last event.

[unborn dagger]

^

Loud minority strikes again

[willow burrow]

You fail to mention that it's currently sitting at the lowest player count since June 2021

Just like coping that pax is a 'good gun' and 'doesn't need anything' doesn't help its case, pretending like we're not at the lowest point in over 2 years doesn't make the game magically super alive and popular

[queen jungle]

Whch is far, far more likely the result of a long and grindy event rather than an overall flaw - people are simply exhausted after having to play so much Hunt. Also let's not forget September has lots of anticipated games or game extensions releasing, such as Starfield.

There is no indication of a lasting downward trend considering the history of Hunt

[little jackal]

was it grindy tho

[unborn smelt]

depending on the type of player one was - yes

[queen jungle]

Honestly, I just bought all the event levels and had tons of fun. But if you're an average player, the event was quite grindy judging by #feedback

[unborn smelt]

with the new focus on finishing weeklies nearly every week to finish the event it can be kinda grindy to people that before would brush through an event to then focus on other stuff

[willow burrow]

so far this is not only the biggest decline but also the longest if you look at the charts so this would only be valid if starfield had huge overlap with hunt playerbase, bigger than any other game released in last 5 years which I imagine is far from true

[unborn smelt]

if you are just a player that keeps returning and finishing the quests anyway - then no it was not

[willow burrow]

You can't just look at highs and act like ur best is all you and your worst is all third party, random factors

[unborn smelt]

this would only be valid if starfield had huge overlap with hunt playerbase,
i beg to differ on that one...

[willow burrow]

Hunt did something good including new guns, new boss, new weather and the shooting range

[unborn smelt]

other big releases undoubtedly take away players to other games

[willow burrow]

yea they take away

you misunderstand what I said

[unborn smelt]

BG3 being another big one, next to starfield

[willow burrow]

I'm not saying ppl playing hunt will be playing hunt while playing starfield

I'm saying that using this as an argument for the lowest dip in hunts history would only be valid if no games of Starfield's caliber were released during hunts lifetime

[unborn smelt]

so i'd be carefully judging overly fast - afterall Hunt is a game that's half a decade old that just finished an event, and Starfield and BG 3 are massive new releases that people are very interested in

[willow burrow]

yea but we're not comparing hunt to starfield, we're comparing hunt today to hunt few years ago

[unborn smelt]

And all i'm saying is both of us likely miss important factors both right now and throughout hunts history to make a quick judgement on the numbers

[willow burrow]

yea it's multivaried absolutely

[unborn smelt]

Because of that i'd not be that worried yet.

[willow burrow]

this is exactly why u can't say 'game isn't dying, look we had 43k, and please do not look at that 17k we dropped too, cause uhhh, starfield?'

[queen jungle]

Even if Hunt were to start losing players continually, it wouldn't really be surprising. It's an old game at over five and a half years.

[willow burrow]

but rather maybe u should consider voices of people who for 1000000th time say they dont like the rain

[queen jungle]

See, this is the fallacy in your argument. Projecting your own opinion onto larger developments, thus coming to the conclusion that what you dislike must be the cause of said larger development.

[willow burrow]

it isn't my opinion you just gotcha'd yourself

[queen jungle]

It if your opinion. "I don't like rain" is an opinion.

[willow burrow]

I don't necessarily agree with the guy assessment but I don't discard it and pretend like his a 'loud minority'

it isnt my opinion

[unborn smelt]

I'm not saying disregard that - but both are kinda important. The new player peak shows the game still generates interests half a decade post launch trumping any peaks it had before, and yes the numbers droopped big time (which is always expected post event...) what's important now is to see if the dropping numbers stick or get back up again like they did so often

[willow burrow]

you keep saying it's my opinion but just because I consider someone's position as potentially valid and overall negative influence on the game doesn't mean it affects the experience for me in the same way

I couldn't care less about the rain, but if I was a developer/designer I would cause it might cause more harm than good

[willow burrow]

yea that's why I said they did something good but they clearly also did something wrong, that's why u shouldn't discard feedback from a guy whos so frustrated he wants to quit the game

im not saying u should wash his feet or something but maybe he's not wrong in the big picture

[unborn smelt]

but they clearly also did something wrong
And this is where i can't yet agree

[willow burrow]

Sure we can wait

[unborn smelt]

it's enhtirely possible that the timing of: event ending (exhausted players) > BG3 release > Starfield release

is responsible for the player drop

[little jackal]

wondering if it's possible that the community just have finally gotten along with the content drop schedule and because the game is old they have less and less interest to stay for long after experiencing all the new stuff. The curve is crazy close to my own interest, with even a steeper drop before some new content releases

[willow burrow]

its possible and that's also a mistake for a live service game that tries to sell microstransactions

[unborn smelt]

if that's true, we can expect the playernumbers to rise/stabilize again once the Starfield hype died down, which still should take some time

[willow burrow]

all im saying is if its 10000th time you hear about the rain maybe consider it one of the factors

[unborn smelt]

if that's wrong, which is also very much possible, the playernumbers should decline/stabilize at a lower number, even after the Starfield hype died down

[unborn smelt]

well but then again we also hear people wanting rain 10000 times until they finally got it...

[willow burrow]

and maybe now they're the people who are complaining cause it isn't good

[unborn smelt]

the vocal people on discord are just a very small amount of the playerbase afterall

[willow burrow]

you can't focus on what peoples past preference

[unborn smelt]

that however goes both ways

[unborn smelt]

well you must to a degree...

[willow burrow]

yea history is there so you dont repeat the same mistakes

[unborn smelt]

because if you got what you wanted you won't be pursuing it nearly as much anymore after receiving it

while the new people that didn't like it will now start to become louder

[willow burrow]

but you can't assume that if I wanted an apple, now that you've given me a rotten apple I'm pleased with it

[unborn smelt]

because of that both the past requests and new feedback is important to be looked at together

[unborn smelt]

yes but i also can't expect you to keep voicing how great that apple was/ is with the same energy that you showed before you got it

[willow burrow]

on a side note since starfield had such a destructive impact on video gameing industry I looked up a bunch of other popular games that are in steams top 100 that have been suffering from a minor stable playerbase decline in past few years

[unborn smelt]

people just tend to get quiet when they got what they wanted

[willow burrow]

and they have not suffered playerbase drop around bg3 and starfield release

so I really don't know why are we attached so strongly to this argument

[unborn smelt]

I dunno if i look at steam DB BG3 has far more players...

[willow burrow]

https://steamcharts.com/app/548430

fair comparison?

roughly same time out there, similar development roadmap

[unborn smelt]

current is 230k, 24h peak 320k, all time peak, 875k for BG3

[willow burrow]

similar playerbase size, in fact on steam stats they're neighbours

why didnt deep rock galactic suffer such a hit

[unborn smelt]

Current is 150k, 24h peak 200k and all time 330k for starfield

[willow burrow]

https://steamcharts.com/app/1446780

in recent history a very slight increase

(this game gets no more content and had its final update few months ago)

so again: does specifically hunt showdown have a huge overlap with starfield/bg3 playerbase?

that these other popular games aren't affected to the same degree?

ps. I didn't cherry pick these games I just picked games that everyone can relate to (like not mahjong) and have similar playerbase and aren't new/super old games that have diehard playerbases

[unborn smelt]

I dunno DRG seems to have a drop Aug and Sep 23...

Aug being BG3 release and Sep Starfield release

also considering how many more people are still playing BG3 currently over Starfield it's not unreasonable to assume that some of the players dipping in Sep are not just starfield, but also still due to BG3

[willow burrow]

did they lose half the playerbase

[unborn smelt]

no they did not...

but neither did hunt

DRG lost -20% the last two months respectively

Hunt lost -30% in Aug, then -20 in Sep

[queen jungle]

Better not use SteamCharts, their numbers are notoriously off

[unborn smelt]

what to use then instead...

that's the link i was send

[willow burrow]

if u lose 34% and 21% it means u've retained ~52% playerbase

[unborn smelt]

then yes DRG lost 40%...

[hot vigil]

@vale roost what gun do you use?

[willow burrow]

we go 43 peak to 22 peak

[unborn smelt]

If we assume the -10% hunt has on top are just the people being exhausted of the event that's absolutely in line

[willow burrow]

[unborn smelt]

yes we wen't from "New event beginning now", to "many people don't want to grind event anymore "

dropping numbers significantly is absolutely in line with hunt event sin the past

it's important to see if the numbers stick this low

[willow burrow]

if u think this is proper

what else can we do

[hot vigil]

There are literally thousand of games, and hundreds of those have the same bright idea of trying to make people play "forever games".
Keeping player count up by just pushing out event after event doesn't improve the quality of the game, just the FOMO notion and it burns out people.

[willow burrow]

I posted this with roughly the same numbers before starfield released its not like the numbers got that bad in last week

[willow burrow]

pushing events to keep players is another problem yes

but I didn't wanna switch the topic to that cause that's moving goalposts

but it's an issue in itself

[hot vigil]

My point is more

[willow burrow]

I personally absolutely hate the event meta

[hot vigil]

People play games and people want not only to play ONE game.

They will come and go

[willow burrow]

yea its true it's gotten ridiculous

[hot vigil]

Hunt is niche game and will not be runaway smash hit.

[unborn smelt]

That's a core issue of the "games as a service" modell

[hot vigil]

Do I want as many people to enjoy and play hunt so matchmaking gets better and Crytek can sustain? Sure.

[willow burrow]

I used to play like 20 games on different days of the week now I play like 4 cause I have to do dailies and battle passes in all of them

[vale roost]

i use a lebel after a few headshots and res i have not enough ammo xD

[unborn smelt]

it sure sounds cool to be able to always go back to a game you loved - but for the devs it's hard to justify paying for a games upkeep if there's no income

[willow burrow]

At the beginning of hunt showdown event I am like 'nice new shit haha', by the 2nd week I hate the game more than I did before the event dropped

[hot vigil]

Well, I mean, there are plenty of guns with better ammo economy.
Long ammo is the best ammo with downside of intentionally having low ammo :b

[willow burrow]

thats why we all collectivelly must stand against cattle passes as consumers

[unborn smelt]

that depends on what one's goal is really

because the alternative will sure as hecc not be companies continuing support for released games out of the goodness of their souls

while i love me many old games and still hold them dearly (Deus ex, Gothic, WC [the actual old one not that remastered dumpsterfire], ...) it's also obvious that those games either use other monetisation models, or don't offer the same multiplayer options many modern games do that people like so much

[willow burrow]

dont think battle pass is the only possible solution to the problem

the inventor of battle pass has already backed out of the idea actually

to chase different monetization venues

[unborn smelt]

at the core i don't mind the "games as a service" model where actual balance relevant content is free, and income is generated through cosmetics.
And while i'd sure love for Fomo to not be widely accepted - Fomo is sadly cemented into not just gaming but basically everywhere

[willow burrow]

I don't mind games as a service at all

as long as they don't make it so I'm forced to involuntarily play the game for 2 weeks 2 hours daily or else I miss out

[empty oasis]

So you want the reward with no effort? Buy the levels

[unborn smelt]

But what else is the alternative to generate enough income to keep supporting a game as a service

you can lock content behind the paywall directly - which then leads to people paying for that new gun

which is very likely slightly too OP post launch - surely just a conincident tho cough, cough

[willow burrow]

yea I'd prefer that

[unborn smelt]

another option is using more of the malicious psychological tricks we already see in other games - like the lootboxes that get forbidden in some countries already

[unborn smelt]

because of how close it is to P2W - i personally don't. But both are fair assessments

[willow burrow]

hows it p2w in context of hunt?

[empty oasis]

The new guns would be locked behind a pay wall and would be a little too strong

It's been that way in every single game it's been implemented in to get ppl to buy it

[unborn smelt]

It has the potential to be... Just looking at CoD for example where that new gun is always kinda OP and then get dialed back one or two updates later

[willow burrow]

how about not lock the variants behind the paywall and put just the skins behind it

[empty oasis]

That's called dlc and is already a thing.

[unborn smelt]

I personally prefer the actual balance relevant stuff, like weapons, tools, etc or stuff like maps which potentially means spli queues for matchmaking thus worse matchmaking, staying free

[willow burrow]

you cant buy dlc variants

[unborn smelt]

yeah that's what crytek do...

[willow burrow]

its behind unpaid labour

[unborn smelt]

DLC's are one part of that monetisation model - Battlepasses another

[empty oasis]

So pay for it and avoid the grind. It's already an option

[willow burrow]

if you're paying for it we go a full circle for it being p2w

you're still paying with either labour or money so how does that defeat the p2w argument

[vale roost]

sure, but i mean, if there is trait that helps against fire or poison, there could be a trait that helps against low ammo, why not

[unborn smelt]

no... ?

[empty oasis]

No, youre wanting the current battlepass rewards to just be behind a pay wall and not a grind from what I'm understanding

You can already buy all the levels and avoid the grind completely

[unborn smelt]

because you only pay for the cosmetics

[willow burrow]

ok but im talking about variants

[unborn smelt]

not for the guns, etc as those are free to beginn with

[willow burrow]

ok hold up let me explain

if I am at grid 0 and I dont have the variants unlocked and I must ''''''level up''''''' to unlock said variants

this is still related to how much I am willing to play to unlock them vs how much other people are willing to play

since this diminishes my capacity to do anything else during that time it is how much labour you're doing

so its labour vs money but you're really paying in both cases

[empty oasis]

What variants are you talking about? Like the Winnie Swift is a variant of the Winnie?

[willow burrow]

yea

if argument is them being locked behind a potential paywall could make them p2w

[empty oasis]

So you don't want a leveling unlock system at all and just want to use any gun?

[willow burrow]

they shouldnt be locked at all

no I want them to not be an unlock during events

[empty oasis]

You're combining different points

[leaden nacelle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_BOi1LUBPo

[willow burrow]

no im still talking about the battle pass

what are you talking about

you wouldn't be disagreeing with my point without assessing what my point is right

[unborn smelt]

To a degree you're right.

[empty oasis]

Almost all the weapons that have been in the battlepass have been new and not variants

[unborn smelt]

But i still massively prefer the, play to earn the gun without paying, to "you never get the gun if you don't pay"

but yes it's not perfect

[empty oasis]

It's not even play to earn the gun. It's play to get it early since they're available to all after the event

[unborn smelt]

but paying to skip a grind can very much be considered P2W

i ofc would never put it on the same level as the more severe P2W methods, but by principle it can definelty be considered P2W

But that specific case to me is very minimal, because the skippable grind is usually not that much and after the even ends you can earn em like any other weapon variant

so it's also timed

[hot vigil]

Again, ammo types are balanced around their limitation vs. power.
There is a reason why we just had a major ammo rework and it nerfed the amount of ammo you get, ESPECIALLY for long ammo.
Ammo boxes are good crutch if you struggle with ammo too.
But as you get better with your shots, you'll see it ain't too much of an issue.

Also trait vs poison and fire are SOMETIMES a help IF the opponent rolls those bullets.
But a trait that just flat-out increases your ammo economy is ALWAYS just a straight upgrade.
Not to say there ain't a lot of perks that upgrades certain aspects of your Hunter, but most of them a gated to niche, be it scopes or tool usage or certain weapon types, so they are mostly loadout dependent.
A ammo boosting trait would be good no matter what loadout you run.

[rotund obsidian]

yeah ammo boosting trait would be too meta. ammo pools would either be too small without it, or too large with it, and pretty much every gun would need a rebalance. if you need more bullets for long, just take ammo boxes or a sparks pistol or something. More bullets should come at a sacrifice, whether it's a secondary or consumable slots.

[brisk timber]

#game-ideas message
@opaque glen
Tbh missing to many infos
Is this queuen up for only those conditions?
Fracturing the queue is unfortunately a real thing
Playerbase is not that big

The Opt in model (having one queue for everyone but chances at specific conditions you choose when enough players with same preferences opt in aswell) is probably the best solution for Hunt

[opaque glen]

Yeah, it is. Hence the boxes you can check/uncheck. And you're right about that. Maybe the available conditions to choose could be decreased, this is just a rough sketch. (e.g. only being able to choose between clear weather, fire, rain, and night. Or even further, only 3 conditions: Night, Clear Weather, and Weather. (Weather being fog, rain, wildfires.)

[turbid oxide]

@opaque glen I have a bump from my knuckle where you circled that guy's thumb

I may be misunderstanding what your talking about , but if that is what you were trying to point out I have that

[opaque glen]

it's not sharp?

this is only on some legendary hunters and tiered hunters too. it's especially noticeable with the lonely howl

[unborn dagger]

Can you explain how it is notoriously off? I've never heard that before

[queen jungle]

SteamChart's numbers are always off from the real ones. Take Hunt right now for example:
Steam, SteamDB, and Steamcharts

[unborn dagger]

Ahh

[brisk timber]

i wouldnt call that a dramatic difference tho

[queen jungle]

It scales up

SteamDB's numbers match the ones Steam itself shows. SteamChart's numbers are always off.

[brisk timber]

In total numbers ofc
But percentage wise its not really a big margin of error

[unborn dagger]

I mean true but I'll be sure to check DB next time for more accurate numbers

[hollow raft]

I see the topic of player retention

I really strongly believe that development needs to give a hard look and try at polishing the brand new and no friends who play the game experience

First impressions are important with everything in life, even if we try to quote "don't judge a book by its cover"

and every game that has been holding strong for years currently has plenty smooth of an intro to the game, plus a smooth gameplay experience for those who don't use Discord for team comms
And in a game where losing is punishing (as in losing your Hunter), you don't want to have little to none team comms

[hot vigil]

Issue is that Hunt, at is core is a hardcore team game.
Not brush away the concerns, you are right, but it is really hard to onboard people into that.

[hollow raft]

Just straight up, give randoms team-only global chat

[hot vigil]

Think the best solution is to have team chat too in-game.

[hollow raft]

text and voice

[hot vigil]

Yeah

Agree

Think it would also be good to stress that you should play with team-mate and IF you wanna play solo, play in duos.

[hollow raft]

The whole local public proximity voip concept is too boomer and will dishearten/frustrate any player

it's walking in the shoes of a new player who was not referred to the game by friends who they can play with once starting, but found it via content media like YT or Twitch or stumbles on it on Steam

and those kinds of players NEED to be accomodated

[hot vigil]

It is very much a "cool on paper", but reality even if discord (or other 3rd party apps) are banned, a lot of people who play with friends also do it as a social activity.
So being forced to be quite bc of VOIP will get you killed.

[vale roost]

AND what do you think of a trait that gives you a bullet back of your weapon if that bullet killed someone ? could be funny

[hot vigil]

People who play together and talk sure do communicate tactics, but they also chit-chat

[hot vigil]

Could be fun, but kinda just buff the weapons that are supposed to not have a lot of ammo.

And are more valuable for those

[hollow raft]

If you don't know what your teammates are doing, then you're more likely going to be like "bro why is this random necro farming me into a trap? does he not know it's on me?" or "does he not know where the enemy was that just killed me?"

[brisk timber]

Well the ammo rework has its reasons so im not really a fan of circumventing that now with other stuff
that would make the rework absurd
but i gotta admit this sounds interesting

[hollow raft]

It's a major fix they need to do

or else the game is literally "referral invite by friend" only to build the community

[brisk timber]

I agrre with Kiruko
There is so many stuff in the QoL department that could use some love instead of pushing out another dlc, event, battlepass
I know this makes no bank in the shortterm but would help keep the longlivety of the game up

but this is something i hope for maybe comes with the next gen update

hopefully

[hollow raft]

At least in games like Apex/Fortnite/PUBG/CODWZ/R6/etc any game holding a community still is because you can solo queue, be matchmade into a team, and have proper in-game comms with the team

[brisk timber]

Teamchat, Teamvoice, Better UI, better Servers,

I feel like so many people here hold on to the hardcore aspects like a forced queue that they shotthemselfes in the leg forgetting about casual friendliness