#feedback-discussion

1 messages · Page 90 of 1

hot vigil
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Well, maybe for you, not for me and then that argument doesn't really have that much to it.
Dunno, just let people not have to commit to videos games as a job would be cool in my book.
Like let them actually get what they pay for.

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Good

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I pay money for this product, so I would love to know my purchase was guaranteed.

dull mason
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Your purchase can be guaranteed if you go about it right

hot vigil
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You earn 1k extra event points pr. week.

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Thru weeklies

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Which is the core way to earn event points to begin with.

dull mason
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Do you actually? I wasn't aware

hot vigil
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Yes

dull mason
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Don't remember is saying this anywhere, next time I'm on my PC I'll take a look, fair enough.

hot vigil
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Not getting the battlepass makes you miss out on 8k (8 levels) worth of event points.

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Lemme grab a screenshot

dull mason
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Dw I believe you

hot vigil
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Good bc, I cannot show you with my account as I got the battlepass :b

dull mason
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All the bp is really asking people to do is play enough to get their weekly missions done, which for most I would argue, isn't that much

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If they focus on it

hot vigil
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But yeah, I just want a quest-like system where I can slot in 2-3 battlepasses, I can only have one active ofc.
But it means I can grind something in-between events and hey, Crytek can some of my money!

  • in the case something happens in my life I don't get fucked over.
dull mason
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Ah I understand your point now

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But yeah that's just a tool for player retention so that players don't spam to finish the pass and then get bored or burnt out

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I would agree with you that their questline system is better though

hot vigil
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Yeah, but also, we usually see a drop of players after an event bc people are hunted out.

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Bc they have to grind/keep playing, it is better now tho.

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Some the older events were a real pain

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But yeah, if there were older battlepasses people could return to, it might mean that people wouldn't do a 1-2 month break after events, but maybe a week or two, bc they know they have more content to return to.

dull mason
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I have heard that older events were pretty bad with the grind, especially serpents moon which I wasn't around for. But this event + devils moon hasn't felt like much of a grind at all to me. (Though I could just be playing more hours than I should)

hot vigil
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Yeah the past two events are just right

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In that sense I have no issue with the battlepass.
But I always think games should be pro-consumer and giving them choice and ability to do things at their own pace is always better in that sense.

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Especially when money is getting exchanged.

little jackal
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@versed mason sights are a balancing factor. surprised you didn't mention vetterli's

hardy coral
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Ironsights are still generally personal preference and muscle memory, some however are more comfortable and easier to read up front.

little carbon
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How is it silly. It's a fact that some people invest more into Hunt (or any other game, really) than others. Be it by investing more thought into their playstyle and reflecting about their matches more (meaning skill) or be it time in the case of events.

And people should get rewarded for their investment.
Reasonable people aren't getting hurt about others being able to unlock some skins, but they do want some reasonable payoff for their investment.

So having them return with a reasonable delay and with reasonable investment is a good compromise.
It also keeps up incentive to play and incentive to play events, if getting them is somewhat more difficult outside of them.

hardy coral
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Vetterli is odd and so you can't really transfer familiarity from other guns to it. It's also not worth maining since the gun is mediocre.

little carbon
versed mason
versed mason
hardy coral
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The cycling animation/recoil is more of a balancing factor.

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The drilling sight could be seen as an attempt at balancing though since it doesn't have a direct counterpart in time period, it has an odd bead.

little jackal
hot vigil
# little carbon My method would allow progress at your pace, just with a higher cap during the o...

(I'm responding here, but it for both of your comments)
I can agree with all of that you are saying.
I just don't think battlepasses should be able to "run out".
For me the perfect solutions would be that we divide battlepasses into two states: Current and Legacy.
Current battlepass are alike to the current event we are running, with all the venues of earning event points thru hunters, traits and whatnot.
When an event ends, it will become a legacy battlepass, it is not buyable for now, but if you had brought it during the event you get to keep it.
The legacy battlepass are like a current battlepass except you can only earn points for it in the following ways:

  • Looting Hunters.
  • Banishing Boss.
  • Weekly challenges.
    So no: Totems/Shrines/Snakes, event hunters, event traits or event boost weekends/twitch drops.
    That means if you didn't do it during the event, it will just take longer time to complete.
    More so, the system should be akin to the Quest-system where you can "store" multiple battlepasses, but only progress one at a time, but you are able to switch which one you wanna progress on at any time.
    Battlepasses can have a little grace period after an event where they cannot be brought akin to the early access weapons.
versed mason
# hardy coral Ironsights are still generally personal preference and muscle memory, some howev...

Yes I agree. In the case of the Berthier however the iron sight changed significantly. And there is no arguing that the new version makes aiming harder. I am sure this was not done to balance the weapon because it was already not played very often and did therefore not need balancing. Also this change came with the update in which the guns were prepared for the introduction of the weapon charms. This changed how the hunter would hold the weapon (for some weapons more for some less). If I remember it correctly the position of the front hand on the Sparks was changed a bit, to give an example. This is why I think that the change in the iron sight of the Berthier is not due to balancing but due to a mistake when the grip on the weapon was altered.
This is also indicated by the fact that the position the weapon would shoot at remainded unchanged. (It shot where the old front component of the sight would have been = higher than the new front component indicates) This was later corrected.

Even apart from the Berthier I think (because that is how iron sights work irl) that for all rifles the front and rear components should align.

little jackal
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well, worth bringing their attention to it, who knows

versed mason
# little jackal ... and then misalign it to balance then 😄

I don't think the iron sight were misaligned on purpose to provide balancing, because apart from the berthier's iron sight none have been changed so far to provide active balancing. Also this would be a very inelegant way to balance weapons. More over crytek takes very long to make balancing changes in general. It seems far fetched to me that they would take the time and carefully misalign the different sights beforehand.

little jackal
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mhm

versed mason
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Then again I don't work for crytek so these are all assumptions and I might very well be wrong

little carbon
# hot vigil (I'm responding here, but it for both of your comments) I can agree with all of ...

I agree with pretty much everything you are saying here. I absolutely understand the thought that once you buy a battlepass you should be guaranteed its content at some point in time, as to avoid fomo, it just needs to be implemented in a way that doesnt devalue the effort someone puts in to complete it fast.

I think the system you are describing now is pretty much the same as the one i was describing, with the difference that i would make a battlepass completely not-progressable during the grace period (so even if you bought it during the event you will have to wait out the grace period before you can finish it) and i would reduce the point-gain from the challenge track outside of events a bit. I think this would be the main way of making them a bit slower since the in-match factors just contributed so little anyways.
They could even add in the past pre-battlepass events in form of buyable legacy battlepasses.

hot vigil
# little carbon I agree with pretty much everything you are saying here. I absolutely understand...

I mean, this event was 99% based on weeklies, so reducing the point game further would feel a little too much, even think it shouldn't be as based on weeklies to begin with.
I don't want legacy battlepasses turning into secondary jobs if you want to do them off season.
If we just take weeklies earned, it would mean that your average legacy battlepass would take around 7 weeks to complete.
Also keep in mind, not all unlocks are equal, especially when some of them are just ammo/weapons that everyone have now.

proper magnet
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feedback remove rain or stick it with night , fog etc in a seperate contract again no one wants to play this shit if nur not just camping...

little jackal
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I don't mind rain and fog

dim heron
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Love the Rain effects tbh, when it goes from heavy to light light to heavy ugh

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so good

hot vigil
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Rain is fun fog

brisk timber
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This whole discussion about fomo, rewards, achievement, putting in hours...
Everything about this shit is bogus tbh
People need to touch some grass and stop using the gaming space to wear and show off some kind of elite-batch to patch up their fragile ego.

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Enjoy the freakin game and let others enjoy the full content without any restriction just because you need to feel you earned something.
Go out and do something valuable in rl and "earn" something there. Jesus.

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If you need to prove something go in the Bayou. Thats the space right there to be competitive.
Otherwise gaming as a hobby should be inclusive and it should be about reaching out to each other shaking hands and not exclude people from things you feel entitled to.

little jackal
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nah, the wayfarer is too cute to share her

brisk timber
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damn youre just to cool to argue further HuntHarold

flat sandal
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Everything we discuss here is kinda pointless but it's fun.

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Granted all this skin stuff is a bit next level but many games are just about that with respect to monetisation.

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Hence actually quite interesting to think about. Still think there has to be a better way and thinking about why on earth things always evolve to a pile of shit is interesting to me, no need for grass^^

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Big part of the reason are shareholders i think. They take the passion out of gaming

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Btw, the thing that ppl touch on with the touching grass argument is part of the problem. Dodgy strategies by gaming companies are designed to make ppl act against their interests really. Telling ppl to be reasonable is pointless as there will be part of the population that is susceptible to that stuff. Thats the whole idea and its an issue. Can't articulate this properly rn 😄 just be nice to them they are the victims here

willow burrow
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I mean we're already too far gone the battle pass stuff is already a consumer norm

flat sandal
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Dont think it can last forever. I hope anyway. We need good companies though. In online fos multiplayer anyway

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Put your thinking caps on and get on it

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Honestly, for me personally nothing about unlocking the pass stuff is fun. The new mechanics are

willow burrow
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What thinking caps man its all very late to the party ppl think battle passes are a good thing for nearly a decade

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same with premium currencies

flat sandal
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Yes until someone comes along with something better

willow burrow
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both these mechanisms are in no way shape or form made for the benefit of the consumer

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the only thing that'd 'better' is an even more predatory mechanism where the company can get even more money from you for even more stuff u dont want

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imagine someone came up with an idea that u should work for unlocking the stuff u buy and ppl agreed to it

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thats how far its gone

flat sandal
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Yup

willow burrow
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imagine u go to the restaurant u get a menu and they tell u last 2 pages are only for people who did 2 hours of dishwashing

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like fucking what

flat sandal
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Yes the way out brains function is being abused. Really only the law can probably save us^^

willow burrow
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sure

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but id really this stuff just controlled itself

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like honestly I still play this game but at times I have to take long breaks from it because of its shit factor, lets be real

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no matter how much u like this game its got a lot of dogshit in it in design and technical elements and some days u just ride with but some days its too much

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and I absolutely love the battle pass where they make me play so I can't take a week off cause oops not gonna finish the battle pass hehe

flat sandal
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Apart from the temporary traits and conditions, everything about the events is shit if I'm honest. Who really gives a shit about skins. I go and buy dlcs and stuff if im genuinely hyped for a game cause i feel like supporting it. I wish that could be built on but perhaps not enough ppl are like that, or noone really explored this yet. It's probably associated with a higher up front cost and thus risk.

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Idk

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Oh and rotjar is cool too

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Just all the actual things^^

vital drum
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A lot of people do. People like live service games that keep going for years nowadays and battle passes are pretty much the preferred way to fund that. Battlebit released recently with double the peak of Hunt, it's already below in CCU. Because it's the old-school game where you just have gameplay and nothing else. Is that better in some ways and pretty much in all ways for people who prefer that? Sure. But not for most gamers and the consumer has made the choice.

flat sandal
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Only it's not really a free choice

hot vigil
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Yeah you make it sound like there were a vote for it

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lmao

flat sandal
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But that's getting philosophical^^

hot vigil
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Look at BG3, also a runaway hit with no battlepass, seasonpass or whatnot

vital drum
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In a way there is, with your wallet. And battlebit is the example of a game that came out with the old-school philosophy and was a hit at the start. Yet it's already below Hunt is CCU, because there is no live service element. People are making the choice.

dull mason
# brisk timber This whole discussion about fomo, rewards, achievement, putting in hours... Ever...

Anything that has a form of competition will be used to increase egos, especially those that give accolades. The discussion about battlepasses, FOMO, and whether or not they are immoral or unhealthy marketing practices is a very good topic to discuss.

Same with the point below it, every hobby should be used to be inclusive and inviting towards those that aren't invested in it, you're pointing out issues that pretty much everyone is aware of and agrees with but are also not confined to gaming.

flat sandal
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What's ccu?

vital drum
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Not to say Battlebit is failing, far from it, and I like it quite a lot. Multiplayer games and live service are a very good match, that's why they're dominating the market.

vital drum
flat sandal
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A lot if that was hype i think.

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You can also have events without this battle pass bs

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I wonder how much of the events financial success actually depends on it

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Or just plain new stuff that keeps ppl going

vital drum
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Sure, there's always a better way and I'm not saying you shouldn't be discussing the possibilities. But when I read stuff like "who gives a shit about skins" and talks like battlepasses are universally disliked, you're not willing to face the reality that many people do.

flat sandal
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I know that ppl care about skins, i kinda do. I just meant like, really.^^

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If that makes sense

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At the end of the day what matters are the mechanics that stay

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Or rotate

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Or features, idk

opaque glen
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The
Researcher

flat sandal
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Eyyy, my first one

opaque glen
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I love his watch :)

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yk what I'm salty about? I made it to tier 35 by grinding, and decided to buy the BP yesterday, thinking I could finish it by grinding it out. After doing weeklies, and playing for 5 hours, I gained one tier. One.

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Now I basically know that I can't finish the BP, even though there are still 5 days left. You know what game I can finish the BP in? Fortnite. People say that allowing the BP to progress through natural gameplay with decrease player engagement, and yet look at the game that revolutionized it.

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Additionally, why can't you profit BB from the BP? 1000 to get it, only 600 to max it? Even in Fort, you get around 600 PROFIT if you max it.

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But that's just my two cents.

vital drum
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All it takes is being the company that introduced the gaming industry to battlepasses, targeted young audiences and made billions.

opaque glen
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I'm just pointing out how Hunt does the battle pass worse than the game it copies it from

vital drum
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There are always exceptions to every rule, but they are rarely applicable to the whole industry. DRG makes free battlepasses and completely free updates, why doesn't Fortnite do that instead?

opaque glen
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and yet people claim that player retention will decrease if weeklies aren't the only way of progressing

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Fortnite is free to play, DRG is a paid game. They'd have no way of profiting!

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Hunt is $40, with paid Battle Passes on top of countless cosmetic DLC!

flat sandal
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This weeklies stuff and battlepass was nice to try. Turns it it sucks^^

opaque glen
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I wouldn't say that Fortnite is the exception to the rule. They made the rule.

hardy coral
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This event has been one of the worst as far as interactivity goes. The special time of day just randomly shows up (way too often tbh), the shrines are basically pointless to go for, the challenge progression is done via the regular rather boring challenges and the split for earnings is too tilted towards doing those challenges.

vital drum
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Epic can afford to do many things that will be inaccessible to pretty much every developer out there. That comes with being a pioneer in a genre and reaping insane financial rewards. You can afford then to keep your retention through introducing insane amounts of content at insane pace afterwards.

hardy coral
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I haven't really been engaged by it and rotjaw being quite pointless other than the heal (which remedy can do) doesn't help either.

opaque glen
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How do you think they got there?

vital drum
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Combination of developer talent and luck

opaque glen
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The BP has been that way from the start.

hardy coral
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Fortnite was a lot of luck how it blew up and stayed popular.

vital drum
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They didn't get there thanks to the battlepass, let me tell you LUL

crystal plume
hardy coral
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Remember that it was actually called Fortntie Battle Royale first since it was based on a different game (which had financially underpermformed).

hardy coral
vital drum
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Well, battlepass is was a huge right step on their way, but it was in no way a foundation

hardy coral
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It can take longer to find than the other bosses and it's riskier to fight for a pittance of the reward.

opaque glen
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Then why does it seem like Hunt is grabbing onto predatory tactics with both hands, in an attempt to increase engagement levels/profits (at players expense?)

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If it wasn't because of the BP, wouldn't they rather prioritize player satisfaction?

hardy coral
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I'd hardly say the BP is predatory.

opaque glen
hardy coral
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You pay to get more skins and a little extra event point progression.

vital drum
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Well, I wouldn't call what Hunt currently does predatory. But Hunt fights for your attention and time, because it has to. It doesn't have the luxury of doing otherwise.

opaque glen
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It's not predatory entirely, but it employs predatory tactics as a means of keeping players engaged. For example, the only real way of progressing is through weekly challenges, instead of normal gameplay. This makes many players compare it to a second job, writing it off as a pointless grind. Additionally, FOMO is used, as limited time cosmetics do this inherently.

opaque glen
hardy coral
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Grinding is comparable to a second job.

opaque glen
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And yet, DRG, a game that has free battle passes, and doesn't employ these predatory tactics is blooming. Almost seems like they aren't necessary for a successful/popular game.

hardy coral
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You could say the game wanting you to log in for shorter stretches of time over a longer period of time instead of playing in bursts could be seen as a "second job" but I'd just consider that a healthier relationship with what you do for fun.

tulip solstice
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How would i potentially ask a community manager/dev regarding feature/fix for a certain component of this game with them actually answering? I already wrote a detailed issue description some time ago in the #game-ideas

vital drum
hardy coral
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It is also rather unique in what is also a large market without many competitors

opaque glen
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Regardless of how prepared they were, the outcome is the same. They're blossoming, and their game has never been more popular.

hardy coral
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A dedicated co-op shooter, not many of those.

opaque glen
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My point is that these predatory tactics aren't necessary for a games success.

crystal plume
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As much I also love DRG the games are not really comparable 😄 Team sizes are different so the need for profit is different, the amount of work needed for different new additions is different compared to art style and the procedural nature of DRG, and as Cado said it's not using dedicated servers unlike Hunt for hosting all of the matches

vital drum
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They aren't necessary if you've already made it. Hunt didn't make it in early access when there was no monetization at all.

opaque glen
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How much do you think Hunt's profits would drop if Battle Passes weren't time-limited, or if they were able to progress naturally?

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That's all I'm suggesting, not saying they should drop monetization entirely. I've invested a hefty chunk into hunt.

vital drum
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That depends on how well they'd be able to sell the idea of being the "good guys" to people. If that catches on and spreads - that might even be a benefit in the end. If it doesn't, then you might just lose players, because other games have time-limited events that make them more compelled to play over Hunt.

opaque glen
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I love the DLCs and enjoy the battle passes. I just wish I could go back and complete questlines/bps from previous seasons, and not have to go out of my way to do challenges. In an ideal world, I'd progress just by playing.

hardy coral
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In DRG you are forced to play certain biomes and mission types to progress.

opaque glen
vital drum
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The challenge system we currenty have is something I prefer over the previous versions, but I do agree that it should have more options to progress.

flat sandal
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Instead of an event, bring in upgradeable "hideout" and "clans". Boom, there's you reason to be engaged long term

hardy coral
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Events aren't that engaging anyway. I swear with the devstream they said there'd be special challenges during the event to earn points.

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But there wasn't any?

opaque glen
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It's easily the most grind I've seen in a video game, and it frustrates me. I see other games, like Fortnite, do a battle pass better, and wonder how Hunt could have gotten it so wrong, considering they're the people they copied it from. And it's all done in the name of profits/player engagement, and the expense and satisfaction of the player.

flat sandal
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There is no social component in the game atm

vital drum
proper magnet
opaque glen
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Additionally, you can't even profit BB from the battle pass.

hardy coral
vital drum
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Hmm I don't remember that, but I can't be sure

hardy coral
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Would be interesting that after unlocking guns or tools in the pass that you'd get a special challenge to incentivise trying them out.

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Like "Kill enemies with the drilling shotgun". "Land hits with the New Army Swift". "Get kills with consumables looted from the deployable toolbox".

flat sandal
vital drum
opaque glen
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That's not what I'm pushing for.

hardy coral
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I think serpent moon (other than the awful time of day) was one of the better battle passes.

vital drum
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No, but that's "Better than Fortnite"

opaque glen
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Look at how I've compared it, specifically. Fortnite offers natural progression and a profit to premium currency, if you complete the pass.

hardy coral
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The battle pass there is much longer afaicr and probably has a much lower completion rate due to the games demographics.

opaque glen
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I used DRG as an example, to show how successful a game can be at the extreme.

opaque glen
vital drum
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So did those events. There were no challenges, points were awarded for regular gameplay actions and breaking event stuff. There were BBs in those free events given out as well

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There wasn't even a challenge system back then 😄 Dailies and weeklies existed, but only one each.

opaque glen
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I like the challenge system, but I don't think it should be mandatory to progress.

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More like a bonus for those who want to progress faster.

vital drum
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Yeah, I'm just saying that doing something obviously more generous towards players isn't a magic bullet. Hunt has tried that.

opaque glen
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What do you think would happen if these changes were implemented? (Regarding non time-limited BP, and natural progression.)

hardy coral
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Why would the BP not be time limited?

opaque glen
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I've already said why countless times, scroll up ☝️

hardy coral
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I'm sorry but it doesn't make any sense for hunt when event progression is tied to things that only spawn during the event and the events themselves are all themed.

opaque glen
opaque glen
hardy coral
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So they all become the exact same?

hardy coral
opaque glen
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On a great game, through natural gameplay, you can earn only 100.

vital drum
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Natural progression we've already seen and there wasn't anything that made it particularly successful. Good engagement in the beginning, but since battle passes had to accomodate people who didn't play 24/7, those who played 24/7 finished it in 2 days. So player counts droppped quite a bit sooner. Making battlepasses available at all times could be interesting to see though. But only if the current progression system is kept, because otherwise all the battlepasses in history will be 10 days of gameplay for invested players.

opaque glen
opaque glen
hardy coral
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Yeah that's the point of the events.

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To boost and retain players.

vital drum
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Yeah, since now the most effective way is basically to play is once/twice a week for the challenges

hardy coral
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I do think the merging of the queues was a horrible idea for player retention though. People don't like the rain, or the night.

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It's not like the BP and event changes are big brain from crytek, it's experimentation.

flat sandal
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Is it really possible to say that the increased retention is due to the type of progression? It seems plausible but other things changed too.

opaque glen
hardy coral
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You can hash it out via steamcharts in part.

flat sandal
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Its not a nice way though for sure^^

opaque glen
vital drum
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If you stretch that to two months, you'll either have to make it a heck of a grind or "force" players into pacing themselves

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The latter is what Hunt does, basically

opaque glen
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I see. Anyways, nice talking with you, Arricado, but I've got to go. Hope you have a nice day.

hardy coral
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The pacing out of it does need blaanced with the ability to grind.

vital drum
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Yeah, have a good one as well 1HuntHowdy

flat sandal
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So you make more ppl play longer. That looks good number wise but they probs dont pay more and potentially get more annoyed and feel less like buying more shit

vital drum
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Well, if people don't play the game, they definitely aren't buying anything 😄

hardy coral
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And if they're playing over a longer period of time that's more time to do sales and release more DLCs.

flat sandal
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The reason to play matters though i think

hardy coral
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More days to re-roll black market, more days to check the individual sales and bundles, etc.

vital drum
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Of course these methods and battle passes will deter a certain amount of people. That is inevitable. It's just that the majority prefers them and is encouraged to play by them than just content updates.

flat sandal
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I played way too.much for the wrong reasons lately. In hunt that's a bad idea in particular 😄

flat sandal
vital drum
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I didn't buy an officer legendary in a winter event, so now I know I don't have everything and don't feel forced to "complete the collection" 😄

hardy coral
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@opaque glen You can already heal your teammates and give them all the shots.

flat sandal
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Could be an argument to be able to do it later

vital drum
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Giving the ability to go back to past battle passes might be a positive in the end, that I definitely can imagine working

opaque glen
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Babe wake up, new dev interview just dropped
https://youtu.be/9B85eKRbE3Y

YouTube
HomeReel
The Fate of RotJaw and Thundershower (EXCLUSIVE) | Developer Interv...

Use code 'HOME' in the Crytek shop for a discount: https://shop.crytek.com/?ref=33518

An unconventional interview with Crytek's General Manager David Fifield.

00:00 Intro
00:57 Binge Live Action Series
02:22 Does the Player County Record validate the direction Hunt is headed?
04:45 Why do Extraction Shooters struggle to find an audience?
07:...

▶ Play video
hardy coral
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You get close to them and start and finish the animation on them.

opaque glen
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Ok, I... Thanks.

vital drum
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Yeah it's like you heal yourself, just standing close to your partner

flat sandal
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Uhhhhhh

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Right mouse I think

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Then left

vital drum
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The animation will be different to indicate that

flat sandal
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So hold right, then left

opaque glen
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crossbow with healing bolt :D

flat sandal
opaque glen
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or the team colored outline?

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Just select the pvp option from the menu, in the bottom right.

proper magnet
vital drum
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Confirmation bias do be like that

opaque glen
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I love the rain, glad to see it's staying

crystal plume
#

@opaque glen Removed your post in #game-ideas since it's not a suggestion, you can post feedback in #feedback 🙂

flat sandal
#

Does that mean inferno was unpopular?

opaque glen
opaque glen
unborn dagger
#

I just want them to rework it to be like the rain event where it's dynamic

rose leaf
#

If i can get a moderator on this to eventually get the developers to hear this that would be wonderful

#

So

#

The event bonus charms

#

The Ewes Horn

#

looks like a shrimp instead of a horn

#

can it be renamed the Ewes Shrimp instead?

queen jungle
flat sandal
#

Dam i won't be able to get it just short of some points. I would love a shrimp on my weapon.

hard hedge
#

fix the matchmaking already. tired of game after game in lobbies against people at a higher skill level than me. never spending money on a game i cant enjoy on a regular basis

trail oasis
#

Just do like i do. When i netflix and chill i go on quickplay and die over n over untill i wanna play so i stay with the 3stars

#

I never encountered more than 4star players on my low 3star lobbies

vital fractal
karmic ivy
trail oasis
vital fractal
# karmic ivy what does it tell?

The current balancing system is failing to provide players with balanced matchmaking to the point that players have to cheese the incredibly easy and abusable systems in place to reach what is deemed fair

vital fractal
flat sandal
#

Why serpent solo had to be a thing, i don't really understand though.

flat sandal
#

Test

trail oasis
flat sandal
#

Even without finding it first

#

Never tried it tbh

trail oasis
#

Depend on the team inside if they take it right away or not

flat sandal
#

The range is crazy though

trail oasis
#

If not yes its impossible to caugh a 50m far player witb magpie before being extract. No one ever managed to

#

Before being extract

flat sandal
#

True but ofter the bounty isnt taken or drops at some point. I think ill try it one day

trail oasis
#

If someone kill the boss i go trap the extraction next to it with cooncertina and poison trap. If someone fall for it i snipe the bounty from new york and leave like a troll

flat sandal
#

What a man 😉 or should i say dude^^

#

Ill try sounds fun

trail oasis
#

If u get trap between 2 team go on a river and suicide with a dinamite or try to fight since u on the water u cant get burned so self res later is garantee working

#

A solo who play smart is litrally invincible

#

Proof in 2 day i managed to make 105k dollar and max 25 hunter without losing a single one

trail oasis
little carbon
#

@hazy smelt Trials are pretty much fine at the moment. The one you named isn't even one of the ones that got harder.
It's pretty much only the two dual wield trials that got a bit too inconsistent after the (recent) updates. All the other ones are completely fine.

They are still hard to complete on 3* (at least some) but that is fine and honestly also how it should be. But the important bit is that you can be pretty consistent on most of them on 3* if you learn them well enough (spawns, ideal routes) and have decent enough aim.

The dual wield ones could honestly just get a little bit of extra time and they would be fine as well.

late quartz
# vital fractal The current balancing system is failing to provide players with balanced matchma...

It should be noted that perceived fairness is not actual fairness.

We have good scientific evidence that suggests players need to win the majority of the time, upwards of 60~70% iirc, in order for a game to feel "fair".

Our minds weigh losses heavier than victories, and victories in a game like hunt are often quite dramatic. Winning a game of hunt often isn't winning a single 2v2 or 3v3.

If you get into a match, kill one team, then die to the next, this trend in a vacuum suggests a 50% encounter win rate but will still feel like a loss. Even in a scenario where each team has an equal chance to win against each other team in a match you'll leave most lobbies in a body bag rather than with a bounty.

In order for Hunt's PVP to feel fair to most players they'd probably need to be getting 4~6 kills across their team per match, giving them a greater than 50% chance to come out alive and profitable.

vital drum
#

The goal of MMR isn't to give you fair matches, it's to give you more fair matches. It's not trying to find enemies of equal skill. There is absolutely nothing difficult in making tighter brackets and making sure on average players are a lot closer in rating. It's just that developers don't believe the downside of long matchmaking queues of that is worth it.

#

Making the system visible has the unfortunate downside of making the impression that it's actually trying to create an almost classic "ranked" environment. If you expect that, then the system will feel broken. And the problem now is that taking away that transparency could also have a negative impact, because "Crytek is hiding the system because they know it doesn't work" will likely be the reaction of those who already think it's broken.

late quartz
#

I guess my point is that fair matches broadly feel unfair, and in order for players to feel that a match was fair it needs to have been unfair in their favor.

The fact that people feel Hunt's matchmaking is unfair is obviously a result of many separate factors but the two biggest focuses we have right now are K/D and stars, both of which are obviously bad metrics for judging the fairness of a match post hoc after you've lost.
As you say, removing the visibility of these metrics isn't going to fix the problem, and I believe that's largely because most people are actually not capable of perceiving losses as fair

open carbon
#

Eh, what else do I need to know other than "They killed me, so they were PROBABLY better than me." And I won't complain because I won't get better fighting weaker enemies

#

I don't care HOW MUCH better they were

late quartz
#

If people have a negative reaction any time they die to a player who they perceive as better, all that leaves is losses that feel like "bullshit" or undeserved.
If losing to a player who outplayed you is a mark of bad matchmaking, you're never going to be satisfied when you die to a player who you think sucks and shouldn't have killed you

open carbon
#

People should care more about growing themselves than to whine about how they don't want to fight anyone who's better than them

late quartz
#

I mean ultimately, as Arricado says, the goal is hunt isn't to make ultra fair matches.
The reality is this is a casual game played primarily by extremely casual players and its core systems and design don't lend themselves to an experience that satisfies that audience.

Games like CoD are industry defining giants because they allow casual players to have fun without playing competitively or focusing on growth. Hunt is modeled to be a punishing experience, not an empowering one

open carbon
#

Couldn't agree more

#

However.

#

The whole "git gud" thing has poisoned the well a bit, because it's very misunderstood in most cases

#

Poeple throw it around as much as "skill issue" and they're of course not entirely wrong, because it is about skill and the willingness to improve

late quartz
#

I mean yeah "git gud" is gamer brainrot used to dismiss valid criticism without considering it at all

open carbon
#

The people it is said to don't take it as encouragement though, which I believe is what it's orginally meant

late quartz
#

It's almost never actually a good point

open carbon
#

I think toxic gamers like to abuse it to crap on other players

#

In essence though, I'd like if more people saw it like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blSXTZ3Nihs

YouTube
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Solaire the Sun Bro - Git Gud

The best advice can be hard to swallow

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little carbon
late quartz
#

Its systems are internally contradictory

open carbon
#

To me, the "git gud" mindset is meant to tell others that they CAN do it, they just gotta keep at it

late quartz
#

It has a competitive design philosophy without a competitive environment to support them

little carbon
#

How is the environment not competitive?

late quartz
#

It both bolsters personal skill and undermines it at the same time

#

So, easy example

#

Sometimes you just spawn on boss lair

#

That's not an earned advantage

#

Is it a problem? No it's fine, the game isn't meant to be a perfectly fair competitive test of skill

#

Things like AI, random spawns, random boss locations etc all improve Hunt's experience and identity while also undermining it as a competitive game

little carbon
#

You don't need to be deterministic to be competitive.
The randomness doesn't necessarily detract from the competitive aspect, it forces you to think in statistics yes, but the randomness isn't that impactful on your winning chances if you play well.
Banish length being an important factor there for example

vital fractal
#

The point of any skill based match making is to make a game as fair as possible

little carbon
#

A lot of people confuse competitive design with the rigidness that a CSGO like rank system brings

late quartz
#

but the randomness isn't that impactful on your winning chances if you play well.
This is almost necessarily untrue. Two teams both "playing well" leveraging advantages will maximize the benefit of unearned advantages

#

If a shit team gets a good roll, sure, it can be overturned with skill

#

A skilled team with a good roll will leverage it against a skilled team without a good roll

#

Another really obvious example is metaprogression.
Players enter a match with WILDLY different levels of power that are all earned outside of the match.
Even if you wanna argue that metaprogression is earned, which is still debatable I feel, within the match itself entering with a level 50 hunter who has a chad loadout is not setting an even playing field against a brand new hunter

late quartz
open carbon
#

To be completely fair, competition does not per se have to be fair

late quartz
#

In my opinion, when we say a game is "competitive" we're looking for systems that bolster player skill and use that as the primary factor in success.

Randomness doesn't fully invalidate skill, even in much more random games you'll obviously have players who are better at navigating the game's system to leverage advantages across a large sample size, but randomness is almost always a foil to competitive design as I've defined it. Navigating randomness is a type of skill of course, but it's a way of coping with anti-competitive design moreso than it is an added level of depth to a game's competitive nature

vital fractal
little carbon
# late quartz > but the randomness isn't that impactful on your winning chances if you play we...

This is where variance comes in. Players aren't playing perfect, and in the case of Hunt the variance of your plays is much more impactful than the variance of your starting position or even hunter level.
Loadouts are, as long as you bring a viable loadout (not meaning Meta, just not something like two machetes), not inherently different in lethality.

The randomness mostly lends itself to a point where you need to figure out what your advantages and disadvantages are and exploit them accordingly.

late quartz
#

Loadouts are, as long as you bring a viable loadout (not meaning Meta, just not something like two machetes), not inherently different in lethality.

Of course they are. All guns shoot bullets that kill people, obviously, but the advantages of different weapons are pretty clearly defined?
A good player with a bad gun can leverage different advantages (or raw mechanical skill) to beat a player with a better gun, but the advantage so of the weapons is still inherent and immutable

#

I'm not saying Hunt is a game where it's so random that skill doesn't matter

#

But that's like... a really really lame bar to set LOL

#

There's nothing wrong with the game being casual, I like hunt as a casual game

little carbon
# late quartz What does "competitive" mean to you

Competitive means success rate has a strong correlation to skill, both mechanical and intellectual.

Meaning if you want to play at the top of the player base you need to be both good at aim and play smart and reflect on your matches

vital fractal
#

And it does here

late quartz
#

Yeah I just completely disagree that any game with a win rate better than tic tac toe is competitive

vital drum
late quartz
#

I think that's an insane bar

open carbon
late quartz
#

By this definition almost every multiplayer pvp video game in existance is competitive

#

Which means the label holds literally no value beyond stating that it's a pvp video game

open carbon
#

And I mean that not just in a literal sense, also as an analogy or example of where competition doesn't correlate to those two things

little carbon
open carbon
#

Another example would be: Whoever arrives at point A the fastest, wins. Depending on where you live, it's unfair, and not up to skill or intelligence at all

#

It's still competitive

late quartz
#

I mean that's an even sillier definition if both intellectual and mechanical skill are both neccessary rather than sufficient ._.

#

If you think like rhythm games aren't competitive you're lost in the goop my man

vital fractal
# vital drum Well yes, except what is possible is defined by game design goals and the player...

See but you can adjust the parameters of which the system operates within-

See, they pushed the goal of low queue times (as yourself said) which inherently lowers the priority of fairness on top of pushing for fuller lobbies.

They did this with the recent change to MMR system functionality. However, they could go back and make it favor more balanced matches or change how fast MMR is changed or other options as well.

Of course if you limit the parameters as they have and set the priorities as they have, it will try to make a fair match from there but it’ll do so under parameters that can be changed.

late quartz
#

Defining "competitive" as any game that isn't PURE GAMBLING or 100% solved seems silly.
Defining "competitive" as to exclude games that are purely mechanical seems silly.
Defining "competitive" as to exclude games that are purely strategy seems silly.

#

This means chess is not a competitive game

#

There is no mechanical skill in chess

vital fractal
late quartz
#

Based

vital drum
open carbon
#

Or rather, throwing the chess board and calling it winning is probably akin to cheating somehow.

#

It ruins the game for the others and you didn't really win by playing within the rules ^^

late quartz
# vital fractal The point of any skill based match making is to make a game as fair as possible

tbqh, I don't know if that's totally correct.

I think the goal of SBMM in the vast majority of games at this point is to make the game as fun as possible, not as fair as possible.
Usually you'll see this explicitly stated in design docs or presentations when designers talk about their systems. There are always multiple factors to account for, and fairness is usually not the goal but instead a proxy for an enjoyable experience

vital fractal
# vital drum Exactly, so your problem isn't that anything is broken or that the system doesn'...

I know when someone utilized that wording of “it’s broken” they typically just mean, it’s not providing results that are desired (which I know is the wrong use of the English language here but sometimes you have to look at context)

But in the case of the MMR system I call it broken or others do because, due to the limitations placed upon it, it skews how much it can balance to a point of which it feels like it fails to balance well- leading to one to wonder why have it at all in certain cases, since the limitations and priorities in place act against fairness

turbid hound
#

Mmr system always was there, in one way or another, i believe. In update where they "introduced" MMR system, they maybe changed something, but most importantly, they made it more transparent with them damn stars.
I think it was somewhat better while i didn't know that i'm a 4 star. And most importantly, my friend did not know that he is 4 star

upd.: typo

late quartz
#

Matchmaking was waaaaaaay less balanced before the star system

#

Like the tweaks they did to the backend did improve match quality imo

#

Before we had stars to whine about it was just K/D, now we just whine about both
But the actual consistency and quality of matches has improved

open carbon
#

Somebody will always complain about it, can't satisfy everyone

turbid hound
little carbon
vital fractal
#

Perhaps, I can’t attest to prior to summer 2022

But I can attest to seeing players with 0.84 k/ds fighting against players with 3.74 k/ds pretty often and I don’t believe that to be fair or enjoyable

open carbon
turbid hound
vital fractal
#

Enh, barrel traps are fair imo

#

Watch where you step, as annoying as it is

#

It’s really annoying, but fair

hot vigil
#

Think I'm more affected by getting killed by a 1,7KDA than a guy who is a star (or sometimes two) above me.
I fight tooth and nails to maintain my 1.23 KDA, so my brain defaults to thinking that if you have a 1.7KDA, you must be a god gamer, which I am not at all.
Ofc there is KDA farming in this game, so it ain't all true and valid, but still.

open carbon
turbid hound
#

if i find myself all over desalle because of a trap barrel that is my damn problem

vital fractal
open carbon
#

Peace of mind

#

Moar fun

vital fractal
#

Not at all

late quartz
# little carbon We are talking about definitions in the scope of multiplayer shooters, if we go ...

Well, again, I don't agree because I don't think "competitive" in this sense just means "two players competing".

We're using the same word for both, but I do think they're different concepts. I split the latter into "pvp", where as "competitive" is antithetical to "casual". I don't love those terms but I think we have to use language as it appears in common parlance to actually communicate ideas.

So, again, something like Quake 2 duels are 100% competitive imo. Even if you discount map knowledge and item spawns, specifically on flat duel maps two guys with lightning guns, this is a competitive game mode.

There are no shooters without mechanical skill because mechanical skill literally defines the genre, so I can't get a correlary example for a purely intellectual game unfortunately.

vital fractal
open carbon
hot vigil
vital fractal
#

You got three buckets

#

1 star, 2-mid 3, 3+

#

Choose

open carbon
hardy coral
#

What are you arguing about?

open carbon
#

Gittin guuuud

#

Anyway, don't need any KDA or Stars to tell me that the one who killed me was probably better than me

turbid hound
open carbon
#

Eh, I think people make it a problem for themselves by asking to be able to see their MMR and KDA in the first place

late quartz
# hot vigil Think I'm more affected by getting killed by a 1,7KDA than a guy who is a star (...

Okay genuine question. I'm not trying to be dismissive or an ass here.

When I die, I basically never check stats. When I die I think about the situation that lead to my death WITHIN THE MATCH. Sometimes somebody is just clearly better, sometime I will peek and somebody just instantly headshots me from range and does the same to my teammates.
At that point I can clearly go "this person was better than me and probably deserved to win". Maybe they shouldn't have been in my match, idk, but this seems like much more valuable information to look at than their stats.

Do you feel when you lose you reflect more on the situation that lead to the loss, or the stats afterwards?

hot vigil
turbid hound
open carbon
open carbon
late quartz
#

Somebody having a higher K/D doesn't really indicate that you don't have a fighting chance against them.

Sure, if somebody just rounds every corner and instantly headshots you there's not a lot to learn about that. I play in high 5 star and this still almost never happens.
Hunt's player population just... isn't really that good compared to most competitive shooters. When we look at players who are genuinely fucking scary to play against it's not like this is just all 6 stars, we're looking at a minority of a minority of a minority

#

Seeing a 6 star is whatever, seeing a 6 star who's actually cracked by normal shooter standard is a different thing LUL

open carbon
#

And then I come along with my 4*, wipe lobbies and peole start complaining about derankers because of me

hot vigil
# late quartz Okay genuine question. I'm not trying to be dismissive or an ass here. When I d...

Well, I check because it is the only perimeter I can go from when losing/winning.
If my deaths were within the scope of my own KDA I wouldn't be bothered as much, like a 1.0 to 1.4, but when ChadMcCock comes in with 3KDA, I feel like I entered the ring as a Green belt and got floored by a Black belt.
Sure in controlled training enviorment that Black belt can teach me a lot, but in the competitive setting where we play to win, there is not a lot teaching transferred.

open carbon
#

The KDA and Stars mean literally NOTHING when it comes to who's better than someone

late quartz
#

Well, as I say, when I lose I don't really give a damn what the person's stats were

#

I care what happened

open carbon
#

Exactly

hardy coral
#

I'll check the KD if I felt the kill was too easy or that I won/lost an aim duel I felt I shouldn't have.

hot vigil
#

Like how I feel equally bad of killing a 0,8 KDA baby hunter.

hardy coral
#

Otherwise winning and losing is in my hands and there's plenty to learn.

open carbon
#

Complaining about SBMM being unfair is trying to push blame on someone else

late quartz
#

If a person just snaps onto my head and instakills me there might be nothing to learn I guess, but often there is.

Really fundamental shit like positioning, perspective, map knowledge etc. will almost always be present.

If 3 guys in a trio all coordinate and push me while covering crossfires and using consumables, sure maybe I have nothing to learn out of that... but they outplayed the shit out of me LOL

#

There's often a lot less to learn when you die to a bad player who just like wow got lucky and killed me with fanning

#

What do you take from that? Never be in close range? Wow okay pog I'll go hide in a bush 400 meters away with a mosin sniper for the next 200 hours I guess?

open carbon
#

Prepare against enemies with fanning, I'd say. Improve your movement so they hit you less. Bring fanning yourself. Bring shotguns, bring sabers, flashbangs... "Never get in close range" is just the path of least resistance and opting for that is an admittance of defeat and one's own weakness :P

#

Arguing that staying out of range is the only real option is bad faith

#

Just shows that someone isn't really willing to improve

late quartz
#

I think this is a topic where people like to monday morning quarterback and pretend the actual game doesn't exist

#

There are a lot of situations in hunt where you basically have to choose to either take a fight at disadvantage or just walk away

#

And "just don't play the game" feels bad for most people

open carbon
#

Of course

late quartz
#

But this is a topic that will never ever go anywhere and I find very uninteresting LOL

#

Sometimes you will be forced to play in a situation where somebody else gets to use the strengths of their loadout

open carbon
#

But winning a fight at a disadvantage because you were smart or fast or had awesome aim feels so much better

late quartz
#

And in those situations the actual mistake you made was wanting to have a gun fight instead of just fucking off

hot vigil
open carbon
#

This

#

Don't let the enemy dictate the conditions of a fight

late quartz
#

Most people are smart enough to play their own game

hot vigil
#

But most importantly, we removed the fight from us trying to peak from windows into the wilderness, to them having to push us.

late quartz
#

And will just dig their heels in and play to their advantage or not play at all

#

And so you have to either play to your advantage or not play at all

#

Stalemate or fuck off

hardy coral
#

Part of that "smart enough" is pure stubbornness imo.

open carbon
#

That's just stubborn idiocy at that point

hardy coral
#

In either which loadout they select or how they choose to play it.

hot vigil
#

Doesn't have to be 100% in your favour, just reset the upperhand the enemy had.

late quartz
#

Yeah as I say idk this is not an interesting topic

#

The reality is yes people are stubborn and optimize the fun out of the game

#

That's Hunt baby

hardy coral
#

The game has gotten better in allowing you to fight outside of your strengths and also to build more rounded loadouts but lots of people still stick to what can get them kills in rather narrow scenarios.

late quartz
#

^

hardy coral
#

I'm not even saying it's all optimisation. A lot of it is just stubbornness. I see people run Long Bolty+Uppercut when that's just a bad loadout.

open carbon
#

Yeah

hardy coral
#

You sacrifice your small slot to a 400 dollar paperweight.

late quartz
#

All this "just do XYZ" assumes that the other players want to have a good time too

#

And generally that's just not the case LUL

#

My way or the highway

open carbon
#

I got a few mates that refuse to change their main gun, they even refuse to prestige because they'd have to unlock their variant again

late quartz
#

Denying that reality doesn't create a useful model for understanding the game it just sounds pretty on paper

open carbon
#

There is just that kind of mental inflexibility for a lot of people, they can't stop and think about how to turn situations around and such

#

"Mit dem Kopf durch die Wand wollen" is a saying we have here

#

"Trying to get your head through the wall"

late quartz
#

The reality is that a lot of times in hunt the right thing to do is just not fight

open carbon
#

Dunno if there's an English equivalent. However, that's the kind of people who complain about there being "only one way to win a fight" or sth

late quartz
#

But that's not very fun

open carbon
#

One's just not aware of all the options then

late quartz
#

Well that's the point

#

Most of the time, included in "all the options" is not take this fight

#

And hope the nature of the fight changes

open carbon
#

That's just the worst of all options and I honestly wonder why people say it's the go-to choice

hardy coral
#

People should try re-positioning more. It's safe and the enemy still generally wants to fight a bit so you can edge yourself and them towards a location where you're relatively equal.

open carbon
#

Actively changing the nature of the fight is the way to go

#

And people not seeing ways to do that because they're blinded by everyone saying "not taking the fight and waiting for some obscure opportunity" is the go-to option

late quartz
#

Usually when people list off a set of counters to a particular strategy it's something that you actually cannot do within a situation. You CANNOT build a loadout that accounts for all fights, so sometimes you need to choose not to take a fight that isn't in your favor.

Prepare against enemies with fanning, I'd say. Improve your movement so they hit you less. Bring fanning yourself. Bring shotguns, bring sabers, flashbangs...

Aside from "improve your movement" which is frankly not very specific, none of this is a solution where I'm in a match where I've already not made these choices.
If I'm on a new hunter with a rifle and a pistol, I can't pivot to my shotgun fanning loadout rq to take the fight. If I don't have a flash I don't have a flash. If I didn't pick saber I don't have a saber.

This is why I call this "monday morning quarterbacking". There are always things you could've done with perfect retrospect and foresight, but the reality of hunt is that in any given situation you will have a finite number of solution based on previous choices or uncontrollable circumstances.

open carbon
#

It's a shitty example and shouldn't even be brought up, it just validates everyone who's unwilling to actually think

#

The pre-match prep isn't even really what I'm trying to get at

#

Just the in the heat of the moment decisions

late quartz
#

Right. In the heat of the moment where you're in the actual compound you're in, the players are positioned where they're actually positioned, where your loadouts are all chosen already

#

You will not always have a magical solution to leverage an advantage

open carbon
#

If you think you're at a disadvantage, disengage, reassess, then go in with a new strategy

late quartz
#

Sometimes you gotta just go "this is a bad fight" and walk away.
"playing passively" is not taking the fight. Hoping that through your own inaction the other team will take action that reduces their advantage.

#

You're choosing not to fight, and hoping that the other players are either impatient, confident, or stupid enough to give up their advantage

open carbon
#

Yeah and I'm saying playing passively in such a disadvantage is the problem.. The "walk away" mindset is the problem

#

Why default to that thinking from the start, without trying something else first?

late quartz
#

If you have an advantage to leverage do it, I think most players will

open carbon
#

That's like giving up

late quartz
#

The issue is that hunt's systems create stalemates and often times the right thing to do is not fight

#

Not ALWAYS, not BY DEFAULT, but often

open carbon
#

Most players just don't see their options to take an advantage or turn the tables

#

Instead they go for your "walk away" option and then proceed to complain about stuff

late quartz
#

I think relatively few players walk away

#

I think people tend to just sit in stalemates then complain

open carbon
late quartz
#

We have the whole boss lair camping meme and the magical panacea solution that all the gigabrain players come up with is "lol get out of DSB range so they leave"

open carbon
#

My point is, assuming it's a stalemate is also bad

hardy coral
#

It's compound by compound and based on team loadouts.

late quartz
#

I'm not assuming, I'm saying it happens often and recognizing stalemates is part of not being terrible at hunt

hardy coral
#

Salters Pork is one of the worst, if not the worst, compound in the game.

late quartz
#

Assuming it's not a stalemate is unrealistic

#

I'm not assuming either way, I'm saying sometimes it is and you gotta cope with that

hot vigil
open carbon
hardy coral
#

That one isn't too bad since there's many ways up and places to fight.

#

Salters pork you have to completely exit the lair to fight and the enemy has basically no way to break in.

late quartz
#

You are right now refusing to concede on the point that sometimes stalemates happen :P

hardy coral
#

And if they do, up or down, you can just wait since there's two deathtrap staircases.

late quartz
#

Which is assuming it's not a stalemate

#

Sometime it do be how it do be

#

ya feel?

hot vigil
#

Out in the river area

late quartz
#

Going back to the original example, in a situation where you don't have fanning, levering, a shotgun, or a flash bomb, if somebody has fanning and wants to force a close range fight... what do you do?

If you ALREADY don't have a loadout that lets you counter this strategy, and they refuse to stop playing their game... what do you do?

open carbon
late quartz
#

Sure you could've had a loadout that let you fight it, but you don't, and that's not like a MISPLAY really, there are viable loadouts in Hunt that don't have fanning counters.

#

I'm not saying it's OVERPOWERED or unbalanced or unbeatable... but if you are in a match where you don't have a tool specifically built to counter it what's the magical "just do XYZ" solution we're left with that doesn't involve time travel and changing past choices

open carbon
late quartz
#

So your fanning counter is to knife them? :P

open carbon
#

Yeah?

#

Or make them empty their mag and force reloads

late quartz
#

How do you MAKE them empty their mag

#

In a way that doesn't involve you being shot

open carbon
#

Or just go in guns blazing and die with glory like a true Klingon

late quartz
#

So just lose

open carbon
#

Trade

#

At least

#

:P

#

I also run into people cooking explosives

unborn dagger
#

You could just bait them into wasting it. Unless they have chained pistols

late quartz
#

Literally kill yourself is your solution LOL

open carbon
#

Either they die with me or they die without me

crystal plume
#

@sacred barn The hunters don't even use the ejection rod in the first place while reloading

#

So who cares really, I ain't gonna let a piece of string stop me from enjoying a skin

late quartz
#

You'd rather just throw the match and grief than walk away from a fight that you can't win

#

And you think that's a better solution

open carbon
#

How do you think I would grief after such an end?

#

What kind of mentality is that

#

Get help xD

late quartz
#

Generally speaking, if you'd rather lose a match and take somebody down with you than try to win, people will consider that griefing

open carbon
#

I'm playing the game to have fun, first and foremost

open carbon
#

I'm just forcing the enemy into a corner

late quartz
#

By exploding yourself :P

#

I mean as I said, this is never a productive topic but I think you're a smarter more reasonable person than this.

I think you've dug your heels in (ironically) into a position where you're not willing to accept that sometimes if you want to win in Hunt Showdown your best chance is to not take every single fight that presents itself.

I think you probably do actually agree with this deep down, and you'd probably flip given time to cool off

open carbon
#

I just take advantage of the fact they got their hands full

#

And they'll have to either waste their throwable or risk dying with me

sacred barn
open carbon
#

If that's griefing, eh. I also catch bullets for my mates so they got more time to peek

#

your best chance is to not take every single fight that presents itself.
The best choice is always subjective. And if there's a choice other than "walk away" I will find and take it

#

That's just fighting spirit at that point

late quartz
# late quartz Usually when people list off a set of counters to a particular strategy it's som...

This still, more or less.

I think it sounds pretty on paper to say "I just throw consumables and win" but the reality is that if consumables were guaranteed wins Hunt would look very different.

Even assuming you have a full set of 4 throwables to use in any given fight... even if you assume that instead of a kill you can zone a player out of a power position with an explosive or something... that's not necessarily (and often wont) actually even the playing fields very much if they're competent and playing to their strengths

#

The best choice is always subjective. And if there's a choice other than "walk away" I will find and take it
Sure, this is stubbornness, not the most effective strategy

open carbon
#

Yeah I wouldn't throw consumables most of the time myself, I'm so bad with them xD

late quartz
#

"Best choice" meaning the choice that maximizes your chances to win a match based on the information you have available to you at that time

open carbon
open carbon
#

Also, again saying this, "winning" is not synonymous with "fun" for me

little carbon
#

If someone is so holed up that they refuse to peek than you can always time it in a way that you can extract and they die to timer

late quartz
#

Well sure and if you'd like to go down in a blaze of glory that's fine, that's a choice you're able to make, but most people seem to find running in and dying to be as frustrating if not more frustrating than just sitting in a stalemate for 15 minutes

open carbon
#

A match can be incredibly fun without having to win or even make a kill

late quartz
#

Sure I agree

#

but generally it's not the case when somebody's playing ultra conservative trying to bait you into their perfect killbox

open carbon
late quartz
open carbon
#

But forcing people out of their perfect killbox.. Man

#

That's the stuff

late quartz
#

Again the "right thing to do" is not take the fight, insofar as what gives you the best chance of winning. If you don't care about winning and want to have fun RIGHT NOW, yeah pushing in is probably a better coin toss for you, but "fun" is obviously way more subjective than "winning" and most people don't find losing fun almost ever

late quartz
#

I'd say maaaaybe like 3~5% of fights will be genuinely unfixable stalemates

open carbon
#

Yeah that would kind of fit with my experiences

#

Though those unfixable stalemates usually get fixed one way or the other, either by walking away, or by being me and sacrificing a chunk for your mates to get the advantage

hardy coral
#

Fix egregious compounds, make it so supply points are better spread out and add world consumables like weaker versions of dynamite.

open carbon
#

Fire crackers?

late quartz
#

Weaker consumables on CD

#

:)

#

It fixes everything

hardy coral
#

Small explosive radius, carried like you would a lantern, standard throw range, longer fuse.

open carbon
late quartz
#

Cooldown

hardy coral
#

I feel trash consumables should be removed from tool boxes but stuff like dynamite bundles, frags and flashes shouldn't show up.

late quartz
#

Consumables speed up the game, break stalemates, make gameplay more dynamic

#

But they're very finite

open carbon
#

Hmm elaborate pls

#

Like, cooldown how?

#

Can't take more than one heal per minute or stuff like that?

late quartz
#

No like

hot vigil
#

Like a hero shooter

late quartz
#

Basically yes

open carbon
#

No idea

hot vigil
#

Which to that I say no thank you

open carbon
#

Haven't played hero shooters before I think

late quartz
#

You get to pick a weaker analogue of existing consumables, firebomb, flash, hive etc. that has a cooldown so it's less risky to use, but the reward will also be proportionally lessened

open carbon
#

That's Overwatch etc right?

hot vigil
open carbon
#

Yeah wouldn't touch those with a ten foot pole

open carbon
late quartz
#

For example, every 2~3 minutes you get to throw something similar to a hand crossbow fire bolt

open carbon
#

Right?

hardy coral
#

I feel the tools need some reworking too. Decoys and blankfire decoys should be the same tool. Flare guns and fusees should resupply all ammo at once. Chaos bomb should be a tool.

late quartz
#

Yeah I mean the whole tool resupply system has always been bad.

The fact that they reworked ammo resupply and not tool resupply is sort of derranged to me LOL

#

Hopefully that gets a rework

open carbon
#

Yeah less antidote shots pls

hardy coral
#

I like how packmule sometimes doesn't work and you only loot 1 item.

late quartz
#

Don't use your throwing knives because now you can't get heals back after a fight LUL

hot vigil
open carbon
#

I'm extracting from 30 minute matches with 25 minutes antidote left.. xD

hardy coral
#

Looting should by default loot 1 tool and 1 consumable and packmule should add a random chance (or if one is full) to get one more consumable or tool.

open carbon
late quartz
#

I think one tool one consume would probably be too strong for default, but I'd like to take the randomness out of tool resupply specifically

#

it's fine that consumes are gained randomly but

#

"don't shoot your flare pistol if you want medkits back" is a silly silly way to design the system

open carbon
late quartz
#

Tools have so much potential to change strategies and playstyles but they're hard to justify using because medkits exist and are objectively the best tool in the game LOL

hot vigil
#

Yeah, think the loot table should priortize refilling medkits, then chokebombs and then the rest can be random.

late quartz
#

Honestly just make the medkit not a tool? Make it a unique item that has its own loadout slot.

There's no real reason why you'd ever not take a medkit outside of extreme meme builds or grinding unlocks early in prestige. It doesn't even make sense that it's a tool tbqh

hardy coral
#

So if you keep 4 tools what key is the last slot? I suppose - _ but that is odd.

late quartz
#

No I mean I'd just drop your tools down to 3

hardy coral
#

Suppose.

open carbon
#

I've got all slots mapped to my mouse anyway

late quartz
#

because in like 99.99999% of loadouts you will have a medkit

open carbon
#

Except quickswap

hardy coral
#

Thing is 3 slots are already shoe-ins argubably all 4.

#

You're basically always taking a melee tool (likely knuckle knife because it's the best), choke bombs and then throwing axes.

late quartz
#

Well, sort of but to a lesser degree surely

#

Medkits have no alternative

hot vigil
#

Would love to see med-kit sidegrades.
Like Bandage, that heals 25hp, but then an additional 30hp at the rate of a regenshot.

hardy coral
#

Yeah. It's just that in my case there's no free tool slots so the rest languish. But medkit is 100% an include instead of the rest being 70-90%.

late quartz
#

Melee tools have legitimate replacements, melee variant weapons or dedicated melee weapons like the bomblance.

Then obviously you have the throwing knives and axes which are neither replacements for nor exclusive with melee tools

hardy coral
#

And paying for it over and over is silly too.

late quartz
#

Chokes are like... obviously meta but not to the degree that if you don't bring them you're THROWING

hot vigil
#

Chokes is also mandatory in trios in my experience

late quartz
#

And obviously you have replacements like choke beetles and choke arrows now

hardy coral
#

In duos you could go without since a 2v1 push is way easier than 3v2.

hot vigil
#

Especially now firebombs burns for longer

late quartz
#

The medkit is somewhat unique in just how irreplaceable it is. Even if you have 2 big shots and a regen shot for some insane reason

#

You're taking a medkit LOL

hot vigil
#

I always have medkit (ofc), then a big vit and a big regen.

late quartz
#

If you separate medkits into a unique category then let players choose to loot for tools/consumes or for a guaranteed medkit I think it would solve a lot of weird issues with incentives

#

And then you can also adjust packmule in some interesting ways, say you can never get 2 medkits and packmule will loot either 2 consumes/tools or one medkit + one consume/tool

hardy coral
#

How would you design the menu to do that?

#

Based on how long you're looting?

late quartz
#

Hold ADS vs not hold ADS? Take out your medkit to get a medkit?

hardy coral
#

Tools from a toolbox you just tap, consumables you hold down for the same time it takes to use a ground medkit then for a medkit you hold down for the period of a body loot then just apply that to hunter looting too.

hot vigil
#

Already struggling to loot a hunter and not hitting the "pick up weapon" hitbox

late quartz
#

Certainly the UX is a consideration but it's not a factor that makes it impossible

hot vigil
#

Think it needlessly overcomplicates and overdesign.

late quartz
#

lol

#

For sure, just make it RNG so it's simple 💀

#

Loadouts? Overcomplicated and overdesigned

#

Just make it random 4head

hardy coral
late quartz
#

Why have all these menus and unlock trees and options when you could just queue into soul survivor

hardy coral
#

A medkit is the most valuable and so should be the riskiest/longest to pick up. Tools are pretty low value so can be gotten by just tapping. Consumables are in the middle.

late quartz
#

You could probably justify making looting a medkit take longer since you're introducing more into the economy

#

Personally, I wouldn't use different loot timers because I think it would be easy to misinput and would dramatically affect the pace of hectic fights

hot vigil
late quartz
#

But I can see it working, just wouldn't be my personal preferred appraoch to solving the problem

#

Well, you're saying that giving players a choice of what to loot is bad because it's "overcomplicated"

hot vigil
late quartz
#

This isn't bad faith it's hyperbole to express why I think this is a bad counterargument

hardy coral
late quartz
#

It would, for sure, everything has its drawbacks

#

I wouldn't do any menus because that seems to be something the design team is explicitly against using, for fair reasons too

hardy coral
#

Also anything that can't do damage should be removed from the standard consumable pickup pool.

#

Stam shots and antidote shots in there can be okay sometimes but hurt to get during a fight, chaos bombs can kinda do something but they need a further rework too.

hot vigil
late quartz
#

We have a lot of situations in Hunt where single buttons do multiple things, we have two massively different control layouts (hunter vs gunslinger), we have stuff like disambiguated binds (jump + vault vs jump and vault split up).

Not to say that any amount of added complexity is good, but doing something like holding ADS + looting gives you medkits would be very much within Hunt's existing UX design

hardy coral
#

Basing it on how long you hold it down isn't as bad as it overlapping.

late quartz
late quartz
hardy coral
#

Could say it's part of the risk.

#

But that is the major issue.

late quartz
#

Sure, you could. As I say it's a workable solution I just think the balancing concerns around it are a bigger departure from the current system

#

It's not BROKEN or objectively bad, it's just a lot more of a change with a lot more balancing considerations

#

The ideal solution imo is one that lets players pick if they want a medkit or anything else, is easy to do with little risk of mistakes, and changes balance in as few other ways as possible

hardy coral
#

Weapon looting could be fixed by literally gluing them both together at the ends.

#

So if the mosin rolls away the officer pistol is basically attached by the stock so they don't ever go under or over each other.

hot vigil
# hardy coral Player choice is a good thing, even if I'm out of medkits I might want a consuma...

Well, player choice is not automatically all good.
And while I can see a player choice of "offensive tools vs healing" can make for interesting plays, there can also be interesting plays around limiting choice for players, forcing them into situations where they have to think on their feet.
Think the reason why the current loot system leaves something to desire is not because we lack choice, but because the way it is set up, certain choices made before the loot can worsen our loot pool.
Decoys always taking priority for looting is a prime example.
Think if we could make a system that guaranteed at least SOMETHING useful when you loot, people would be less worried about if they can look a medkit or a throwable.

late quartz
#

The biggest issue is the relative value of items you loot is almost impossible to equalize

#

Medkits are something you always want full, anything that reduces your chances of getting medkits needs to be equally as appealing to players as a medkit

#

So either you have to power creep the shit out of everything else, nerf medkits (lol), or buff resupplies so you always get a medkit + other stuff which generally leads to a rightward shift on the player's power curve throughout a match

hot vigil
#

Again, just make medkit always top priority if you a missing a charge.

#

And maybe do away with meme pick ups like chaos bombs and shots

hardy coral
#

I think a staged looting system is best, could even make it take quite long for a medkit so you can basically only do it when out or after a fight.

late quartz
#

That leads to a reduction in the presence of consumables and tools throughout a match which really isn't ideal imo.

Part of the issue we have is that using a throwing knife or a flare or a trap is discouraged, you don't wanna bloat up your loot pool

#

Making it so you can't get those tools back consistently either also discourages using them just in a different way

hot vigil
#

Dunno, if you've only used your throwing knives and you start looting, you well know what to expect to get.
And sure not getting my flare pistol back until last might change little on how I use it, but at the end of the day that flare pistol is so optional that most people don't run it anyways.

late quartz
#

Randomness feels bad and leads to players optimizing luck
Prioritizing any one thing reduces the presence of the other things, which can be optimized for general scenarios but wont always be ideal for players

#

I feel like fundamentally letting players pick what they loot is the most interesting solution that suits the needs of most players most of the time

#

They reworked the ammo system to eliminate metagaming resource management, I think that was valid but it's waaaaay worse for resupplies than it ever was for ammo IMO

hot vigil
hardy coral
#

Single loot tools: Choke bombs, Decoy Fuses, all traps.

Full loot tools: Decoys+Blankfires (roll them into one bag, switchable with the ammo switch key), flare gun, fusees (maybe reduce both to 2 uses so they can't make night maps horrible with toolboxes).

Tools that now loot from special ammo boxes: Throwing knives (loots 3), Throwing axes (loots 1), Quad Derringer (loots 4 rounds).

hot vigil
#

All traps oh boi

late quartz
hot vigil
late quartz
#

"Pick what they loot" in terms of the category

hardy coral
#

Frags and flashbombs should be removed from basic looting.

late quartz
#

As I say I don't want a menu that lets you go to the store on every random Hunter's body

hardy coral
#

idk why you should get either out of a toolbox.

hot vigil
#

I don't think all traps should be fillable in a single loot

#

that would be

#

whew

hardy coral
hot vigil
#

Read it the otherway around lmao

hardy coral
#

Put them all together even, you can only get a max of 1 trap regardless of how many you carry from a toolbox at once.

hot vigil
#

Traps is one of those things, I really don't like, but also don't want removed from hunt

#

Think it is mostly traps stacking poison/concertina that is an issue for most I guess

hardy coral
#

They need limited and insta-traps need some toning down in a way.

hot vigil
#

Think barrel traps are fine

hardy coral
#

It is a big investment tool-slot wise ofc but that makes it feel worse, because the person you died to gave up team utility for random cheap kills.

late quartz
#

Barrel traps are fine largely because they rely on randomness and are much more readable

#

If you could put barrels anywhere you wanted it would be less cool

hot vigil
#

Literally one big red sign post

hardy coral
#

You should try and avoid running right next to red barrels anyway because incendiary ammo (especially with compact) is generally more viable.

#

Same with how you don't just run in a complete straight line or stop in the open.

#

Every single door and window (and even dark spots) can be insta kills with concertina+poison traps.

hot vigil
hardy coral
#

Feel like the poison trap should just deal a flat amount of damage in a slightly larger area instead of leaving what is basically a hand crossbow sized cloud.

#

So the insta-trap gets left dealing about 120-140 damage maximum. Depending on if you want to balance it to kill wounded or downed enemies or just make them extremely easy kills.

late quartz
# hardy coral Every single door and window (and even dark spots) can be insta kills with conce...

A problem too is the fact that BECAUSE they're expensive, because you give up 2 tool slots, they're not common enough that you can reasonably play around them all the time.

You can't play hunt paralyzed with fear of every possibility, otherwise you'd never leave spawn because every bush could have a dude in it.

You have to shave away some possible risks, you have to take some chances or the game goes nowhere.

If instakill traps were so common that they were something you could expect on every door and window it would be one thing, but they're costly enough that players need to tune their expectations in a way that makes them more of a surprise when they do turn up.

hardy coral
#

Poison traps are also pretty trash by themselves.

late quartz
#

Yep. They're not worth bringing on their own so the prevalence of traps is reduced unless somebody goes full hog and commits to both

hot vigil
#

Honestly I think a lot could be fixed by disallowing stacking traps on top of each other.

hardy coral
#

Wouldn't fix the poison trap.

hot vigil
#

Tho ofc, then the question is "how close can you place them"

#

Issue ain't poison traps, but concertina.
It deals damage, slows and bleeds.

#

You cannot add any other traps because of that

#

Flashbomb trap?

#

Well stack it with concertina trap and now you are fucked.

hardy coral
#

Well it is meant to stop you and stacking traps should increase their effectiveness.

late quartz
#

Concertina traps would probably just work better as a frag bomb trap.

Non explosive, initial burst damage and bleeding but no lasting zoning/area denial

#

Keep poison as the area denial

hot vigil
late quartz
#

Force players to bring concertina bombs instead

hot vigil
#

Or having traps as a delayed trigger.
So you spring them and then after a 1-3 seconds they go off.

#

Still means you have to either commit pushing or falling back.

hoary mortar
#

really weird seeing people thinking death trap combos are an issue when all buildings have more than 2-3 entry points, the traps require commitment of half of your tool slots and are counterable by a 50-dollar consumable that lasts 20 minutes (so shorter than most compound fights) or just (save for a few nasty spots) by a bit of extra attention

hardy coral
#

idk how they're not an issue when they can just randomly be in any of the entrances. The antidote shot is BS otherwise but I don't remember it stopping the damage from the poison trap.

open carbon
#

It does stop that damage

dull mason
#

Death traps are anti fun and anti gameplay, I think it's ridiculous that you can vault a window and die from a placed tool without any interaction on your end other than the vault

#

Also a bit weird to bring up antidote shots considering how useful every tool and consumable slot is they are never worth taking unless your loadout is based on poison clouds

open carbon
#

I don't ever use any poison stuff, but always bring an antidote. Also, you can get yourself vigilant for 1 trait point to see traps in dark sight. Not checking is not the fault of the trap combo

dull mason
#

Not checking isn't the fault of the traps, needing to check is. I'm not against traps but I am against uninteresting and unintersctive gameplay

#

It's simply the one shot aspect of doubling concertina and poison traps that I think is ridiculously unfun and should not be a feature

#

It's also not hard to trap every entrance to a compound if you dedicate yourself to it. Frontiersman, packmule, and tool boxes will get you 6 instant death traps while still having two consumable slots, 4 medkits, and a knuckle knife.

#

Sure that's 11 perk points worth of points, but that's not that difficult to do if one extract once or even get lucky with some perks on random hunters.

unborn dagger
vital fractal
#

Death traps are fine, just watch where you enter

#

Seriously, watch where you enter and step- throw a consumable use chokes, something

#

They can be countered easy

dull mason
#

You're not bringing into account that limiting so many of the entrances to a compound (especially the vaulting locations which cannot be jumped over or disarmed) allows the trio inside to focus all of their energy onto a much smaller era of the compound

rotund obsidian
#

i mean u can always just bring some toolboxes and trap everything you want

dull mason
#

The baseline for healthy game mechanics shouldn't be "how easy is this to deal with when you have the counter to it"

rotund obsidian
#

i think dynamite should just destroy concertina traps (or at least, most of the concertina) in one go, not just trigger them

#

also yeah poison traps are lame as hell, they do almost nothing on their own but they elevate the most powerful trap (conc) to godhood

dull mason
#

Definitely, imo they should to buff poison traps to be useful on their own and not allow for stacking traps

#

Hard to buff poison traps to be on par with concertina traps because there is no antidote shot for spiky metal wires

#

So concertina traps will always be more consistent

unborn smelt
#

I dunno - it sure feels bad to run ino a ohk trap, But then again they are easily disarmed once found

#

bringing vigilant makes finding them real easy, and with a bit looking out for them you can avoid most of em too

#

once found it just takes a well aimed shot or a lantern or other throwable to trigger the traps

dull mason
#

These are all positive aspects of traps which should stay in the game, but no all traps can be disarmed or jumped over, and triggering the traps only shows the other team that you're aware of the traps (unless you wait out the poison cloud which adds to the lack of interactive gameplay)

#

My point is that yes, there are tools to deal with traps, but these tools (i.e., vigilance and antidotes) are very niche, some traps are not able to be dealt with, and failure to watch for traps is a 2v3

open carbon
#

not all traps can be disarmed or jumped over
and neither should they

dull mason
#

They shouldn't kill me either

#

They should enable the other team to kill me

#

But not do it on their own

unborn smelt
open carbon
#

Do you say the same about barrel traps every time you run into one?

unborn smelt
#

the traps don't do anything good for the use then either but block 2/4 of their toolslots

dull mason
dull mason
unborn smelt
#

But if traps are just really bad because you need to babysit them to make them work just a bit they are also just bad or it's really boring gameplay

dull mason
unborn smelt
#

because then people will need to camp their traps for them to be really useful

open carbon
unborn smelt
#

IMO if you st ack em, it's fine if they do

open carbon
#

Or come prepared

unborn smelt
#

afterall you can also bring an antidote and they won't kill you

#

or bring vigilant to see em beforehand

open carbon
#

Yeah and refusing to do that is refusing to interact.

#

And then complain about how uninteractive the game is lol

unborn smelt
#

I mean i can understand it in part

open carbon
#

Of course, it's annoying to die to death traps

dull mason
#

You are bringing up points that I have already talked about

unborn smelt
#

If you run into a OHK trap it feels really garbage and uninteractive - as if the other one didn't do anything

open carbon
#

But in 99% of the cases it's one's own fault for not paying attention

dull mason
#

It should not be balanced based on it's counters

open carbon
unborn smelt
dull mason
#

*purely based on it's counters

unborn smelt
#

if you have it be easily countered without anything and then have the counters on top it just ends up in garbage tier

dull mason
#

Okay, people complain about shotgun camping, take flashes, people complain about fog, don't take scoped weapons, people complain about snpiers in the distance, don

#

't leave the compound

unborn smelt
#

even without traits that counter the traps, there's still the option of just watching ones step

dull mason
#

You don't understand what I'm saying

open carbon
#

Oh I think I do

#

You're saying you refuse to prepare and pay attention

#

And plan ahead

#

And be able to improvise

dull mason
#

I'm not saying that it should be useless, I am saying that the ways in which you play around ohk traps lack creativity and enjoyable gameplay

open carbon
#

No

#

You lack the creativity

#

Not everyone

dull mason
#

You say that traps that don't ohk make it so that they need to be camped to be useful, but that is untrue, they slow down attackers, they deal damage, they alert you to location

open carbon
#

That goes for everyone complaining about play styles

dull mason
#

And besides that, traps primarily enable camping

#

imo

round smelt
#

remove revive soloplayer, is tumor of the game.

unborn smelt
dull mason
#

How do we know this 'fact'?

open carbon
unborn smelt
#

that's the reason poison tripmines are only used in OHK traps

dull mason
#

That's an issue with poison tripmines not traps

unborn smelt
#

that's the reason alert tripmines were only used in OHK barrel traps

open carbon
#

And still are mostly

unborn smelt
#

that's the reason basically noone bothers using beartraps outside of actually camping near them

dull mason
#

"alert tripmine" not "instantaneously kill an unsuspecting hunter tripmines"

open carbon
#

That's just semantics lol

dull mason
open carbon
#

Crying about a two-slot trap combo being OHK is like complaining about a two slot throwable combo that OHKs

dull mason
#

No it is not

unborn smelt
open carbon
#

True, it's worse

dull mason
#

Throwables are "throwable" and thus have much more skill involved

unborn smelt
#

that's why you basically only seem em used to trap entrances in a building you're actively inside

dull mason
#

Plus you hear throwables when they are lit

unborn smelt
#

like a boss lair

open carbon
unborn smelt
dull mason
unborn smelt
#

a throwable in this way is super easy - you get an aim helper to hit small gaps reliably and really only try to get said aimhelper close to a target and hope they can't run off

open carbon
unborn smelt
#

to trap successfully you need to actually guess well where people will likely moove around, but not put em in so obvious spaces that people always seem em

dull mason
open carbon
#

Same with traps

dull mason
#

A trap is just setting it down on an unavoidable space and walking away

#

which is FINE

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but it shouldn't ohk

open carbon
open carbon
unborn smelt
dull mason
#

They can do more against it, and they have to put more thought into what they are doing against it (imo)

unborn smelt
#

no you don't need that experience

#

the aimhelper tells you when the explosive explodes and the timers are already known

open carbon
#

The line gets shorter

unborn smelt
#

4 sec for allmost all, and 8 on sticky

dull mason
#

You cannot react fast enough for the aim helper to be used ideally (sure it is helpful, but internal clock knowing the timing is MUCh better).

open carbon
#

YOU can't react fast enough

unborn smelt
#

and löastly - for traps you also need to accurately predict where people will likely go in compounds

open carbon
#

How can you assume that for everyone?

dull mason
#

You seem to be playing against people that don't move when they hear a grenade being cooked, or are in places that you can easily view.

unborn smelt
dull mason
#

Which is not when you will get ideal use out of grenade

unborn smelt
#

you already know beforehand when you need to react roughly because you can know the fuse is 4 sec

dull mason
#

That's part of what I am saying, yes

#

through experience you have an understanding of the fuse timer

#

you can either go based off of that or, if the situation allows for it, also use the indicator

open carbon
#

You can literally look at your antidote/stam/regen counter and count the seconds

unborn smelt
#

or just count the seconds as every child learns (or at least did in my generation)

open carbon
#

Anyway, complaining about a two-slot OHK combo is just... weak

#

Baseless

dull mason
#

Again, the ideal counter for a mechanic should not be the baseline for what a healthy mechanic is

unborn smelt
open carbon
dull mason
#

Yeah fuck people that want to talk about things they dont like :)

unborn smelt
#

it's just us saying - hey there's two really easy ways to deal with it

#

baseline for balance is "watch your step"

dull mason
#

Yet one of the arguments that keep being told to me are "But you have vigiliant, and antidote shots" Which are the ideal counters for it (specifically antidote shots)

unborn smelt
open carbon
dull mason
#

ohk traps allow you to entirely block vault locations from being used to breach your compound. This to me is boring, uninteractive gameplay

unborn smelt
dull mason
#

Not through vault locations

unborn smelt
#

so they don't entirely block em

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just make the attacker choose

#

deal with it loudly or try another approach

unborn smelt
#

toss a lantern

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and they go off

open carbon
#

Traps are meant to create choke points too

unborn smelt
#

toss a dynamite

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shoot through the wooden plank if possible

dull mason
#

Okay so the interactive way to play against these traps are to trigger them and then wait out the 10(?) minutes of poison and throw a dynamite?

open carbon
#

Or just go in another way

dull mason
#

To get rid of the concertina and poison cloud

unborn smelt
rotund obsidian
#

i dunno about yall but when i bring alerts i usually just triplestack them to instaburn off a bar if someone steps on em

dull mason
unborn smelt
#

but you can choke em away if you want to get through imediately

dull mason
open carbon
#

They're about 30secs or less

dull mason
#

Choking them doesn't help much because pushing through a choke is still a massive downside, and the timer is also something like 5 minutes

unborn smelt
#

think it was extended to 2 min a while ago

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IIC

rotund obsidian
#

i think poison trips are only like 30 seconds

unborn smelt
#

poison bomb is the 10 min one

dull mason
#

ah gotcha

rotund obsidian
#

poison bomb isnt 10 minutes is it wtf

unborn smelt
#

it should be

dull mason
#

2 min is much better, but still pushes my point of uninteractive gameplay

unborn smelt
#

you can choke away poison clouds

open carbon
#

Anyway, again, I don't see the point. Refusing to interact, adapt and improvise is boring, of course. You're kind of arguing against yourself here

dull mason
#

"Here is trap, if it doesn't kill you, use some resources and wait two minutes and then you can play"

rotund obsidian
#

if only there was some choke option that didn't linger for very long

unborn smelt
open carbon
#

Choke bolts

unborn smelt
#

yes

open carbon
#

Last shorter I think

rotund obsidian
unborn smelt
#

the point of them using ressources in traps is to reduce your options in one way or another

dull mason
#

Your interactions are to go somewhere else or wait 2 minutes

unborn smelt
#

if traps are so easily avoided that the attacker isn't effected, they are too weak

open carbon
dull mason
#

Which is literally doing nothing but limiting what you can do

#

by limiting the areas you can enter

unborn smelt
#

you right

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it's 5 min

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they must have shortened the duration a while ago

rotund obsidian
#

yeah that sounds about right, that's what i figured it was

unborn smelt
#

they used to be longer, that's why you can choke away poison now

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and you were right on the traps too

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my bad

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it's not even 2 min - it's just 30 sec

rotund obsidian
#

poison bomb still mid as hell when antidote exists

dull mason
#

Fair enough, didn't realize that trap timers were that short

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for poison

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They're not as bad as I thought they were but I stand by them having a negative impact on gameplay through allowing ohk stacking

unborn smelt
#

maybe it was the poison bolt at 2 min...

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but can't check that

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doesn't have that stat

rotund obsidian
#

poison bolt is like 2 and a half isnt it? 🤔 or maybe im thinking of chokes

unborn smelt
#

chokes is 2 min

rotund obsidian
#

i know something is 150 seconds

open carbon
unborn smelt
#

chokes is 120 sec

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so maybe that's actually poison bolt

vital fractal
#

The dragons bolt needs some fixing, I hit something that’s one pixel below the hunter I’m aiming at and it doesn’t hit them

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Like I’ve seen hunters literally right in front of the flame particles and nothing damages them

rotund obsidian
unborn smelt
#

If you happen to have a clip be sure to make a bugrepot in #bug-reports-pc or your plattform of choice

rotund obsidian
#

I think the main issue for me is that conc traps alone are too strong, poison traps are too weak, and the instakill combo can be obnoxious mainly because even if you notice it, you still gotta deal with the concertina afterwards.

vital fractal
#

They really aren’t though

#

Rotate enough times and you can get rid of them

dull mason
vital fractal
#

Shoot them, hit them, explosive

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For red barrels, watch where you step

dull mason
#

Barrels are not problematic.

unborn smelt
#

To me personally the ohk traps are not a big issue because they are very "hit or miss" on the user. Just because they are annoying when you run into them doesn't mean they are always that effective. Many, if not most traps lay somewhere un-triggered yet still cost a player half their tool slots

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but that's just the natre of traps themselves

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the OHK traps are part of the tools that have the perception issue of "devastating when it works - but useless most of the time" IMO

rotund obsidian
#

hmm, maybe make poison damage concertina slowly over time, so that if you wanna instakill combo your traps, the concertina is eventually removed on its own, whether detonated by an explosive or from shooting or walking into it or whatever.

dull mason
unborn smelt
#

bringing them down to the point the one being hit perceives them as "fair and fun" makes them far too bad for people to actually waste loadoutspace on them

#

IMO basically the entire fire ammo category had the same-ish issue in the past for example

dull mason
#

I believe that disallowing traps to be stacked would make it so they could be more evenly dispersed and have more consistency

#

I keep saying the same points but I think that traps should slow down pushes and enable easy kills

unborn smelt
#

people always felt like their fire like incendiary or DB did nothing because they died - but they never got to see or capitalize on the one that was hit being a OHK to everyone else now

dull mason
#

I mean there's a reason that being on the offensive is the more difficult side of nearly every competitive fps

rotund obsidian
#

I think even if poison traps were removed from the game completely, conc traps would still see fairly regular use.

dull mason
#

Traps further that issue imo

unborn smelt
#

to block lair entrances

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but i doubt they'd see much use as actual traps

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and if then only in the way i mentioned before, trapping an area you're waiting at

rotund obsidian
#

Eh, I dunno, getting caught in a concertina trap is still usually a death sentence if the other guy has long or fmj or like a shotgun or something

unborn smelt
#

likie a lair

unborn smelt
#

but only if the other guy is actually nearby - at which point they either go unused or people complain about lair campers with concertina

#

that's the issue i see - because i've read so many "concertina lair camper" complaints until now

open carbon
unborn smelt
#

hard to say

rotund obsidian
#

yeah i feel like most of my gripes with traps end up being concertina-related

unborn smelt
#

i can absolutely understand why people have issues with a OHK trap

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and i wouldn't entirely brush off those concerns either

dull mason
#

Complaining about campers and 150m snipers are equally valid complaints to me

unborn smelt
#

especially with the way healthbars work in hunt

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but i also think it's fair to expect people to deal with traps one way or another

rotund obsidian
#

I'd be more ok with the OHK trap if it didn't also leave a big ole ball of concertina

unborn smelt
#

afterall the user blocks some loadout space to use em so they should bring some use, and even if that's not a kill, delaying a moovebecause they had to be triggered manually is at least some use

rotund obsidian
#

especially when blown up or shot or whatever, because disarming a trap is often an easy way to get blasted in the face

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disarming TWO traps is especially hard if the other team hasn't straight up fallen asleep :L

unborn smelt
#

I think a good start would be that dealing explosive dmg to a trap destroys the concertina

unborn smelt
#

yeet an uncooked throwable or decoy fuse, and get to disarming

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usually people will run until after the expected explosion (of fizzle of the fuse)

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Also shooting a poisonbomb with a chokebolt makes it not trigger poison clouds

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just tested in the shooting range

dull mason
#

I would honestly rather they remove trap stacking and add a grenade trap that one shots on triggering

rotund obsidian
#

barrel trap in a can