feedback-discussion

[quiet iris]

They are streamers (most of the time if not - their streams are automatically stored on the platform for at least a week.

[queen jungle]

Nowadays there is plenty of software around allowing to record the last X seconds/minutes without having to waste space on your drive by recording whole matches.

[cinder cairn]

I'm talking my personal games. I don't care about streamers. The way the game runs as is, I'm not gonna run more software in the background.

[little carbon]

Everyone using an nvidia card can already clip or use replay without having to waste hard drive space since it will only clip temporary, as all footage is deleted unless saved at the end of game. It doesnt even require additional software and can be enabled through the overlay.
and i am sure that other cards have similar options

This doesnt even affect performance significantly, if at all

[queen jungle]

Both Nvidia and AMD offer software that can record in the background without any noticeable impact on overall performance since they use special chips on their cards for that task.

[little carbon]

Exactly, as i had stated for nvidia, i dont use amd graphics so i had no idea what options exist there

[willow burrow]

Half the literature about it will validate that ping abuse is a thing depending on the implementation they read about. The only architecture where it's guaranteed to not be a thing and be completely symmetrical is P2P which hunt isn't 😹

[normal horizon]

that is definitely not true

and Destiny is proof of that

[cinder cairn]

I have a 3090, i9-1200k, 64gbs. I have more than enough resources to do it, but my time shouldn't be wasted on having to clip videos for evidence for policing this game.

[willow burrow]

Which part?

[normal horizon]

p2p being completely symmetrical

[little carbon]

The part that P2P is the only architecture where ping abuse is not a thing

And what nixa is saying

[normal horizon]

Destiny 1 and 2 still use p2p and playerbase wanted connection based matchmaking because people with high ping were terrible to play against

[willow burrow]

I didn't say that and don't put words in my mouth I said that p2p is the only way to guarantee it to not be a thing in a client-server relation it might or might not give u an advantage

[signal mural]

But you guys don't understand... the cheaters have gotten to you too. If the man loses their Hunter than it's because of blatant cheating, wall-hacks, ping abuse, aim-bot, player detecting 3rd party, reshading, nano-machine using foreigners... and P2W Cain skinz.

[little carbon]

I apologize, i didnt see the "guaranteed". I agree that there are architecture variants that are affected by ping abuse. But since you can actually "read up" on Hunts architecture by piecing together all the information given in the different devstreams you can say with high confidence that Hunt follows one that isnt

[cinder cairn]

Ah you said foreigners, you are xenophobia

[willow burrow]

How's it not symmetrical your ping and packet loss is the same on both sides between 2 players unless ur in a lobby where one player is forced to be a server like in old MW2 lobbies

[queen jungle]

Alright, let's not start ganging up on others

Remain civil

[willow burrow]

I don't feel like anyone is ganging up on anyone if this is in reference to the convo we're having 😹

[little carbon]

Even in p2p usually one client is the master client and the others follow in a secondary role. Therefore it not being fully symmetrical. Unless you have a fully deterministic program running in lockstep. Then you have perfect symmetry

[willow burrow]

If you designate one client as a client that serves data to other clients connected it stops being p2p and starts being ad-hoc client-server, as the name suggests. Even if there is one client which serves as coordinator (which is useful eg. for drop-in/drop-out) there will never be a ping advantage/abuse

[unborn vine]

I mean it cannot come as a surprise that hunt showdown has a huge problem with cheaters. Theres already tons of videos on youtube for anyone to see. One person in specific (partner streamer) even has a vac ban on his steam account. I mean Im a customer here. I dont get payed to investigate and report obvious cheaters. Im asking those who do get payed to investigate this.

[little carbon]

You know you can get VAC bans without cheating yourself

family sharing cough

[willow burrow]

Anyway my point was that reading on how client-server works tells u very little whether a specific implementation, like in case of hunt, allows for ping abuse or whatever you want to call it.

[unborn vine]

Oh please.

[devout crag]

Only way for no ping abuse to occur is LAN games. Otherwise ping will always be an issue, even on LAN games things like peekers advantage exists. And High Ping depending on the game makes peeking more beneficial or less depending on angle and other player counter peeking etc. Safe to say no matter what it´ll be an issue

[willow burrow]

Family sharing is disabled in hunt showdown on PC from what I've heard

[little carbon]

Hunt isnt VAC. It was about someone being more likely to cheat in Hunt because their steam account has a vac ban

[queen jungle]

Or most recently Lost Ark banning people for being inactive, thus causing them to have a ban record on their Steam accounts.

[willow burrow]

U cant peek around the corners in hunt cause the moment u stop receiving from the server ur character freezes in the game. Do you mean cheating?

[little carbon]

My idea was that if someone thoroughly reads up on the actual theories of networking, they should have enough knowledge to analyse everything we know about Hunt themselves and come to the same conclusion as the devs: Ping abuse aint a thing in Hunt

[willow burrow]

Ur talking about games that have lag compensation/predicition algorithm/rollback mechanism that allow u to move and see the last tick of data from the server (or info based on it) but that's not all games and hunt isn't one of them.

[devout crag]

With high enough ping you can be in cover but on the otherside the person can still see and shoot you can kill you and you die in cover

[willow burrow]

🤷

[devout crag]

thats the definition of ping abuse, having such high ping other person is still peeking on your side

[little carbon]

Even what you are describing isnt an advantage. Peekers advantage is a symmetrical phenomenon. People also always seem to forget that ping is a 2-way street. Information also takes longer to reach that person

[little carbon]

But you also went out of cover later. You arent crossing for longer, just later

[willow burrow]

Yea but ur shot gets sent to the server, the server verifies it against what's happening on the server, not their client so if their shot is invalid it doesn't get registered

They can't just sit on 2000 ping and make shots based on outdated data and make them count

[little carbon]

Exactly

[willow burrow]

there's some buffer allowed but u can use that buffer as much as they can

[little carbon]

As a sidenote, what can absolutely grant an advantage in Hunt would be a lagswitch, but thats something entirely different than ping abuse even though it also uses ping as a tool

[little carbon]

And you know, there is also the fact that just because someone cheated in the past they dont necessarily cheat in a different game. Innocent until proven guilty.
I am pretty sure i have an idea what streamer you mean and i cant see any objective evidence of cheating within their gameplay

[willow burrow]

Again I don't believe it would work because that would require u to be able to move when you're not receiving data from the server. I don't believe hunt allows this, unless someone can confirm otherwise.

In old games on quake engine or source engine there was a lag prediciton mechanism where it would allow u to move to not make the game jitter and skip around when you lag that way people would disconnect, peek something and reconnect before they time out and on their screen the opponent would get slightly rolled back but they would essentially teleport.

[little carbon]

I am guessing to some extent that you can, cause that is the most likely explanation to how the most common movement desyncs happen.

[willow burrow]

Imma be real I havent seen this happen much in modern games but I have never seen any evidence of it in hunt.

Because in current year an average internet connection is much faster and much more stable which led to game developers not using that mechanism.

[unborn vine]

Once a cheater, always a cheater. Thats just one of the many. Another one claims he can hear people from 200 meters away which is why he can hs trough walls. Its a very silly thing to defend honestly.

ANyway thats why a lot of people aint playing the game. Its up to crytech if they wanna fix this or not. The latter seems like what its going to be. Pump out a bunch of skins, profit and move on to the next game.

[little carbon]

You are making an argument based on your own personal beliefs instead of any logical reasoning. One could make an argument of the same sort that you just believe anyone above your skill level to be cheating. Killing people through walls by sound isnt that uncommon in high ELO. 200m seems unlikely but i doubt that that was the actual distance. Consider that you can accurately wallbang people if you hear them ads if you know the map layout well enough

[unborn vine]

Its impossible to hear someone from that distance dude.

[little carbon]

Again, i doubt that it happened exactly that way

[unborn vine]

The evidence is on youtube. Go there and search cheaters hunt showdown. Go take a look yourself.

One even made an interview with a guy who sell cheats.

Let me know what "my personal beliefs" looks like after watching a few of those videos.

[normal horizon]

we take cheating seriously and we plan to support the game for a long time still. Make sure you report anyone you think might be cheating and it will be looked into 🙂

[signal mural]

My comment was sarcastic and I didn't ping you. Yours wasn't and it was xenophobic.

If you can be bothered to come & complain about on the Discord, stalk player profiles to check their supposed home region, and evaluate their VAC ban status then you could save yourself all that extra effort by turning on NVIDIA Highlights and reviewing the clips when you suspect cheating and reporting suspicious stuff. Otherwise you are venting on a public forum and just putting yourself at risk.

[tight delta]

The hitreg change in 2021 made it so that the server still validates "outdated" data up to some threshold.

[silent tartan]

[tight delta]

Nanomachines???

https://tenor.com/view/armstrong-yeahga-senator-gif-25511057

[signal mural]

LIQUID!?!?!

But yeah, MGS: Guns of the Patriots reference aside, that was there to verify the sarcasm in my posting.

[little carbon]

There is always going to be cheaters, but the question is if they get banned. Our conversation was specifically about you claiming that Crytek doesnt ban cheaters to a point where even the partners are cheating. I dont see any obvious evidence for that on youtube and you havent cared to provide any yourself that could classify as anything other then hearsay and accusations

[unborn vine]

I want to believe you. Love the game. I hope to be back one day 🙂

[willow burrow]

Yes theres 800ms rollback window

[little carbon]

An with a lot more than 2k hours spent in high ELO i rarely see cheaters

But thats also hearsay so i wont base my arguments around it

[silent tartan]

I agree with my 8k hours that hunt doesnt have big cheater problem, but when I made this poll, I got surprised. Even 35% seems a lot

Maybe I should have worded the poll better

[willow burrow]

Average Rachta Z viewer:

[tight delta]

I bet what people think cheating is varies a lot too.

Like they might see "high ping players" as cheaters.

[silent tartan]

But yeah, you would expect most cheaters to be in 5-6 stars, but most people say they meet cheaters in 3-4 star tbh

[silent tartan]

yeah probably

[little carbon]

I mean the poll shows what people believe, that isnt necessarily the truth about the situations. History shows that players are particularly bad at analysing the games that they are playing under a neutral point of view

[silent tartan]

I would say exploiters are bigger issue than cheaters rn

[little carbon]

Exploiting what currently?

[tight delta]

Are people still de-rendering buildings? 😂

[silent tartan]

exploits to get adventage

[willow burrow]

This isn't exclusive to hunt it's the regular mechanic that ppl who dont understand how the game works think they've been cheated

[tight delta]

It's always some really sweaty 6-* who at least used to use the derendering stuff.

[silent tartan]

there are many many exploits that could be as good as cheats

[little carbon]

No, i mean what exploits do you believe still in the game?

They fixed ammo on reload, ladders and derendering, which where the big ones, werent they

[silent tartan]

I dont wanna specify, but biggest issue is the non-rendering walls

and idk if that can be fixed tbh

[willow burrow]

The fabled 'HDD hack'?

[silent tartan]

[valid mango]

u can use pendrive xD

[little jackal]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/842010692906647572/1076272322383728710/image.png?width=1086&height=611

dunno if of the same nature as the ladder exploit

[little carbon]

I dont think the derendering left can be exploited consistently, its probably more people getting incidental value out of it than actual tries to exploit

[silent tartan]

nah thats something else than derendering

ill dm you

[willow burrow]

Famous Crytek Partner Rachta Z spreading word of cheats 🙏

[silent tartan]

Cheater? Exploiter?

[crystal plume]

@mossy crest Just posting a clip is not considered feedback

[flat sandal]

A killcam would be nice there, if it is able to accurately show it that is.

[crystal plume]

Also if you intended to post it as a bug report of hitreg issues(although the clip had none ) then the appropriate channel is #bug-reports-pc

[flat sandal]

I thought there might be hitreg issues cause i didnt know that arm shots were a thing. Meaning you might need three shots sometimes

[teal timber]

@mint phoenix I think they didnt update it yet

[chilly nova]

I only ever have 30 ms because I exclusively play in my own region.

If the trade feels late or like it doesn't belong (on my end), it's due to the other guy.

And yes thanks, I develop multiplayers as I mentioned above. I'm very familiar with how they work.

@little carbon Developing an online multiplayer essentially consists of coming up with a bunch of clever ways to make it feel like there isn't latency and like you're not online.

The way trades happen makes it feel very apparent that there's latency and always feels frustrating for the players involved.

[little carbon]

High ping is a requirement for delay based trades to happen. They are however most of the time in favour of the low ping player, meaning that the low ping player gets a kill they shouldnt have gotten due to latency difference. Which is something you should know, considering you claim to work with network architecture.

[little carbon]

I dont need a lecture on how to develop multiplayer architecture, considering i have long years of experience in it.
Its more about learning to deal with latency in a way that is least disruptive for the product. For some products that might be trying to hide the fact that latency exists altogether, for others, more competitively oriented products come to mind, its about handling latency in a way that it creates an even field and the primary purpose of your program isnt distorted by it.

[chilly nova]

When you say they got a kill they shouldn't have gotten, what you mean is in real world time, they shot later. That doesn't necessarily mean that they shouldn't have gotten the kill.

[little carbon]

If you had any experience in networking you really should know that time is a very relative concept. Real world time isnt exactly the best metric to work by. You usually use some form of client timeline that has a cause-synchronised starting point, for example getting control of your character. At that point you can work with accurate timestamps

[chilly nova]

My message about real world time was in regards to your message, not my own.

I wasn't saying real world was what you should go off of. In fact the opposite. I was saying your message was silly cause it seemed to be referring to real world time.

You can theorize about my level of experience all you want. But that's all just a straw man for the real conversation that the trade "system" feels like shit.

The frequency of trades is far, far too high.

[little carbon]

Then you misunderstand my message. Most delay based trades happen when event causality is flipped. Meaning that a lower ping player kills the high ping player at a later client timestamp, but the information from the low ping player reaches the server first. At that point the server will validate that kill, because it doesnt know yet, that the low ping player is already dead.
When that event reaches the server the server realises that mishap and validates the high ping players kill. But at that point the other kill cannot be undone since that would mean having dead players stand up again, which would be quite disruptive. Of course we could just hold all kills hostage on the server until all clients validate them, which would be the fairest system, but would be majorly disruptive to the gameplay.

Trading as is only feels really bad if you dont know how it works. Because for the high ping players its a lot better than before when they just got invalidated and for the low ping players its still free value. Of course they could say "it felt better before", but fact is it was way unfair before

Also keep in mind that Hunt also favours trade by bullet velocity as a phenomenon by itself and in conjunction also amplifying latency based trades.

The way it currently behaves is a good compromise

[chilly nova]

Also, that was the point of me writing that message. Don't lecture me if you don't want me to lecture you.

[chilly nova]

Except I'm here telling you that I know how it works and that it feels bad as a player.

[little carbon]

Point is it will never feel perfect for all players and the current system is the best compromise where both parties only have to suffer minimally instead of one party having to suffer a lot to a degree where the game might become unplayable

[little jackal]

2 network experts have nothing better to do with their time than to argue about kill trades in a magic western game.

[little carbon]

Well, i aint working 24/7

And i do like Hunt, so why not help clear up some misconceptions in feedback discussion while i am watching videos anyways

[chilly nova]

"Misconceptions", Jesus you're condescending.

I completely understand your argument. But in my opinion, it feels bad as a player. Perhaps it's different per MMR, but I know a lot of players that are not happy with it and haven't been since it was introduced.

[little carbon]

The misconceptions werent aimed at you specifically, more a general argument why i am writing in this channel often.

I do actually enjoy this discussion and i get your point of it feeling worse for you then before. But compromises are often about one side giving a bit up for the other side to not be majorly screwed

[runic crypt]

As a high ping player, I appreciate the change myself but yeah it probably will never feel right for the whole player base for this issue because the best we can have is a compromise.

[chilly nova]

I don't enjoy the discussions in this discord around it, but would enjoy a more technical/data driven conversation in person about it.

If only data could move faster. God damn physics.

[runic crypt]

But God made physics

[little carbon]

That would solve pretty much all the issues. But hey they make some good progress with quantum lines. They can send a textfile 100km over a quantum bridge in just a bit over 6 million years

[chilly nova]

Lol

Anyways, I do feel like there's been some other server factors at play recently.

In some odd feeling scenarios (not solely trades), I've checked profiles for location or asked the other player about their ping.

It feels (from my small data set) like I've noticed more issues surfacing even when fighting other low latency players. Whereas before I would check their profile and it'd say Brazil and not Indiana.

It could absolutely be some observational bias, but I do feel like I've had more "disappearing" bullets recently (not referring to a trade scenario).

[flat sandal]

Perhaps cryengine has some issues to sort out still in that area?

Is there actually any other fps cryengine game with projectile velocity?

[mint phoenix]

Exactly my point

[teal timber]

i mean, it is the page for previous drops. they will update the info later

[signal mural]

I wish server performance would be better for EU players in the EU. I have a better time playing on RU servers. On EU servers with a 30ping I get packet loss, rubber banding, disconnects, and trades that feel bad... like melee trades where there's a few seconds between both of us dying (and no not from bleed). On RU servers with 60ping - I have no issues.

[chilly nova]

Ugh, another trade 😦

I'm getting so exhausted just trying to have fun.

[radiant river]

@little jackal how many stars was that guy in #feedback

[little jackal]

by now they're probably 3, but when I encountered them in qp charging across a field with a knife, they were 5

[radiant river]

Maybe they were just having fun :)

[crystal plume]

[little jackal]

I just met them in qp again. Not 3 yet, but low 4. Not sure about low, guess match mmr 3 is the only value you can get at 4.

[chilly nova]

Another trade

[knotty ore]

This is a fact... Any country that still has mass lan cafes will have a ton more cheaters because people are way more likely to experiment with hacks on a PC that isn't theirs. China, India, Korea, Russia... etc.

Finall, if you don't get paid to PR police this channel, you should ask for a raise you definitely deserve it.

I see hackers in about... 5% of my games. Its not super often, but any time it happens its someone yelling in Chinese on a non-Chinese server. Really need to prevent people from playing outside of their region. And lets not even disucss ping abuse becuase Crytek doesn't even believe its a thing when it clearly is lol.

[little jackal]

can't say about the rest, but in Russia lan cafes are non-existent since probably 2000s. And although I too have some stereotypes about how some cultures may incline towards cheating, this is not a healthy discussion imo

[runic crypt]

Before you go into a rant about how most cheaters in Hunt are of one ethnicity, consider the fact that you might face cheaters that are subtle enough that you don't detect them, and they don't speak so you don't know where they are from. Just a scenario to think about.

[knotty ore]

It has nothing to do with culture... lol

[little jackal]

it does, but I'm not going to elaborate

[runic crypt]

Another scenario: Many cheaters happen to also have a compromised moral system, so they may imitate another ethnicity just to spread hate.

[knotty ore]

Or, China is massive and has a lot of players so that just means more cheaters.

[runic crypt]

I am no Crytek developer so I can't speak about stats, but I would bet that the Asian player base of Hunt is smaller than the US or EU player base.

[little carbon]

Yes. More players means more cheaters. But the ratio stays constant

[knotty ore]

The math wizzard is back. Yes, ratio of cheaters to players stay consistent so a bigger population of gamers would mean more cheaters...

[runic crypt]

Unless that bigger population is not really engaging with this specific product, which again I would wager the Asian community in Hunt is smaller than EU and US.

[knotty ore]

There are like 340 million PC players in China.

Yeah, I wouldn't know how many players out of China play Hunt, but from my anecdotal experience most blatant Cheaters have either been yelling in Chinese, or had Chinese steam profiles with something inflammatory in them about Westerners lol

[runic crypt]

Yeah but no offense, that anecdotal experience can also be flawed like I mentioned before, with either people trying to spread hate because of a compromised moral compass and portraying themselves as Chinese or other ethnicities, or you might also encounter cheaters that are subtle enough that you wouldn't detect, and therefore you never check where they are from. There is no way anyone can 100% mitigate these issues in my view.

I have certainly met European cheaters that intentionally try to make people think they are Asian for example, and unless they had told me that and I went with my assumptions on what I see, I also would've believed that.

[knotty ore]

Sure, if they speak really good Chinese, maybe.

[runic crypt]

Soundboards

[flat sandal]

dude also you are speaking of a subset of players from those regions that also play high ping in other regions

I would bet you find more questionable ppl there

[knotty ore]

In either case, the point is that region locking servers would make my experience better undeniably.

[little carbon]

Well, no. It would replace any off region cheater you encounter with a cheater from within your region. The chance that any given person is a cheater doesnt change.

[flat sandal]

but honestly, it is never a good idea to make general statements like that from ones always narrow point of view

based on anecdotal evidence anyway

[knotty ore]

Removing a full region worth of cheaters doesn't increase the amount of cheaters in my area lol I think you just trolling. Good one mate.

[flat sandal]

because the "our" cheaters also have to come back

[knotty ore]

I would need to see the data for this, but I'm pretty the amount of people that play out of NA on other servers is insanely low. Compared to vice-versa.

[flat sandal]

well anyway, there might be differences, also those might surprise you. I have no idea. I'm guessing neither do you, or what data do you mean exactly?

[knotty ore]

I'm sure Crytek can pull it.

[flat sandal]

but you don't know it

what you have there is an hypothesis dude

[knotty ore]

I hypothesis based on never seeing a single person complain about NA people invading other servers to cheat in any game I've ever played for the last 20 years.

[flat sandal]

just saying it because it's good for as many people as possible to realise that. frees the mind really 😄

it might be a good hypothesis idk. it's not a "fact" as you called it

[knotty ore]

Which part did I say was a fact?

[flat sandal]

which immediately rings the bells when I hear that

about the internet cafe to cheater thing

[knotty ore]

Yeah that's pretty well known?

[flat sandal]

got a reference?

would be interesting

I could imagine that there is some effect but some dude said there arent any since 2000s in russia

anyway, I dont really want to be like that so...^^

[knotty ore]

The number of lan cafes around the world have decreased substantially, but there are still 144k of them in China, BUT
It was more of a divert from having to discuss culture. Fine, here we go. The Chinese government literally make online game cheating illegal because of how big of an issue it is over there.

https://www.ign.com/articles/2018/02/16/99-of-pubgs-banned-cheaters-are-from-china

https://gizmodo.com/chinese-police-bust-alleged-76-million-video-game-chea-1846586125

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/china-video-cheating-ring-hackers-arrested/

I can link like a million things about Chinese players cheating. Google, "China online game cheating" and you can have you thousands of sources.

Why wouldn't you want to make sure people who play out of that region can't play on NA servers?

[little carbon]

For any off region cheaters going into your region, there is going to be the same amount of in-region cheaters going to other regions. Region lock would keep both groups within their region, but change nothing in total amount. Or do you seriously think that whatever your region is (i think you said US at some point) is more interesting for cheaters?

[knotty ore]

You are just trolling, I'm not going to engage.

[flat sandal]

oh wow, sry I asked

[runic crypt]

How is his argument trolling? I don't think it's a bad argument, just as off-region cheaters go back to their regions, so will the cheaters of your region. Unless you are assuming that the off-region cheater population is very high, which there is no proof of and by what we can see I think the safer bet is that, again, the US and EU regions are the biggest in the game, or you are assuming that for some reason the US region is more "enticing" for off-region cheaters.

Or are you saying specifically Chinese players have a thing for US players?

[lone granite]

@zinc solstice Go away with your "Solid Victory", you gd troll! (jp, no hate)

[knotty ore]

Because you are assuming that NA cheaters go to another server to cheat and that NA players cheat at the same frequency. Do you have evidence for it?

[lone granite]

@rugged raft re: Something to spend money on.

How about a Hunter Saloon?
#game-ideas message

[little carbon]

As long as you dont have actual statistics for the opposite, one should assume an equal distribution, yes. And so far i havent seen any comparative statistics provided

[knotty ore]

You don't assume an equal distribution. Look at all the evidence of cheating being a huge industry in China

[runic crypt]

Well I assume that because there was no reason given to why cheaters of any region decide to go off-region, so I use that to deduce that there must be a reason why they prefer to go off-region to cheat and that reason is not racially or ethnically motivated, so for the same reason Chinese cheaters go to the US, US cheaters also go to other regions.

[knotty ore]

Cheating is not as prominent in US. So, less people to even go off region. There is plenty of evidence for it.

[runic crypt]

Oh! It isn't!? Oh well, screw my time living in the US and playing CS:GO and other multiplayer games, must've been Chinese cheaters all the time 😛

[little carbon]

Again, this is hearsay until you provide statistics for it

[runic crypt]

Cheating is a problem everywhere, even if some countries/regions have it worse it doesn't mean that it's barely existent elsewhere. North America, just like literally every other region, has cheaters and when we are looking at the relative to the population, it is not that much smaller. Otherwise, games that are region-locked or only available in the US would never have cheating problems, no?

[knotty ore]

I've played against a tooooon of Chinese hackers in CS:GO in the first year, or two of the game coming out, what the fuck do you mean?

[little carbon]

Even if we assume the cheat production industry being larger in China, that holds no real meaning. US players can buy Chinese cheats, no?

[knotty ore]

Only ones that can read Chinese

In general, CHEATING is a much bigger problem in China

[runic crypt]

For fuck sakes man make up your mind. One time your spouting that there is no evidence and it's assumptions, the next you are using your own experience in place of statistical facts...

[knotty ore]

There is EVIDENCE of that everywhere

[little carbon]

Then provide it

[knotty ore]

I already did

[runic crypt]

You've provided statistics for PUBG and the revenue a Chinese group selling cheats made. Chinese cheat developers aren't necessarily cheaters.

Hardly makes an argument that most cheaters in the world are Chinese and they are just infesting multiplayer games that are not region-locked.

[knotty ore]

Its such a huge issue that online game cheating is CRIMINALIZED IN CHINA

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheating_in_online_games

5 years in prison

my guy

5 years

[runic crypt]

Many things are criminalized in China, you could lose your right to own property if you have too many traffic violations, let's not get into China's legal system and how it isn't exactly the best judge...

The United States also has many problems with their legal system, are we gonna judge the people by the US' bad laws?

[little carbon]

Lets look at the first article. It says that most banned cheaters in PUBG are from China. It also states that China is the biggest part of PUBG's playerbase. Lets make a simplified example. Lets say 1000 Chinese players and 100 US players. Then lets say the cheating rate is 1%. Then you have 10 Chinese cheaters and 1 US cheater, so most banned cheaters will be chinese. But the chance that any given player will cheat or that you will encounter a cheater in a game is still the same within each region.

They are skewing the math to make a headline. The sites you quote arent exactly scientific but rather news publishers that arent even too journalistic

[runic crypt]

Like if you seriously are going to argue that China puts in laws that are fair to their people to curb internationally-agreed-upon bad behaviors then MAN you haven't been reading the news...

Should I mention Winnie-the-Pooh?

[knotty ore]

You guys are arguing about something that is entirely too evident for most people who play video games. So, I'm not going to waste my time trying to prove this to you. Keep fighting to make Hunt less enjoyable.

[runic crypt]

I will keep fighting to move the argument past "Ban China from my region because that will immediately reduce the cheaters by 90%+) because I don't think you've presented valid sources or arguments to prove that it will work that way.

[knotty ore]

Its not just China too. I also want EU to not be able to play on NA servers.

[little carbon]

Because EU are all too known for cheating? Or what is your reasoning there?

[knotty ore]

and vice-versa. Tons of hackers in EU according to Vac ban stats.

So yes, lots of EU hackers as well

[little carbon]

So the US are the only country that arent cheater infested? Am i understanding that right?

[knotty ore]

Its definitely not as prominent. So, it would improve my gaming experience.

[runic crypt]

I see... So the world sucks and there should be a region-lock so that the US gets to bask in their own perfection 😛 Region-locks were historically bad and ineffective, and especially now with VPNs and such.

[knotty ore]

You ever play with a VPN before?

[runic crypt]

Yes and my ping literally doesn't change or it gets slightly better.

But then again, I pay for my VPN so it's a really good one.

[knotty ore]

Large kek, connecting to an extra server improves ping.

[little carbon]

It actually can, if it improves the routing

[knotty ore]

I'm done here lol cya

[runic crypt]

Oh I forgot, my experiences are always invalid and literally lies to you but yours are facts...

Man you are such an elitist 😛

[knotty ore]

Keep fighting to make hunt worse.

[runic crypt]

If that's your definition of worse then heck yeah I will 🙂

You can stick your ideals of how superior the US is compared to everything 😄

[knotty ore]

Never said any of that, but you've been making shit up this entire argument.

[runic crypt]

Again, everything I say is "made up" but nothing you say is even when you literally say it's "your own experience" instead of facts...

How is that not elitist?

[little carbon]

Yeah, i'll stick with what i learned about making games to make games better and keep evaluating on scientifically proven theories. I think thats better.

[runic crypt]

You just don't like that the problem might be more complex than "Keep every non-American out of my server"

[little carbon]

I honestly would like to know why you are even bothering coming to feedback discussion if you seem to not be interested in discussing anything? No attack intended, really just curious

[knotty ore]

Ok, please provide evidence of how allowing people to play with high ping on my server improves my experience. Go ahead.

[runic crypt]

Ping does not necessarily equal region... You are arguing region-lock not ping limit...

[little carbon]

Its not about your experience, its about the total experience quality.

[knotty ore]

Ping limit was never aggressive enough. They've tried that to pacify people complaining, but ostensibly it did absolutely nothing.

[little carbon]

Regardless of whether your experience would actually be better or not. Just assuming that something that reduces quality for a region would improve the overall quality, that would be a good thing

[runic crypt]

Then argue to make it more aggressive not region-fucking-lock which, again, always had it's problems

[knotty ore]

How would my experience improve with people from Asian and EU playing on my servers. Please. This is an evidence based discussion. Go ahead.

[little carbon]

Ping limit was never about cheating or ping advantage. They literally explain that in their devstream. It was about improving gameplay quality by reducing issues with the game that happen at extremely high ping thresholds

[little carbon]

Not your experience. The overall experience.

[knotty ore]

Stop. No. I will only respond to sourced, data based arguments. How is my experience improved by allowing people from EU and Asia to play on my servers.

[little carbon]

Again. Your experience doesnt matter Its the overall experience that matters

That includes you. As a part of the whole

[knotty ore]

How is the overall experience improved?

Sourced, data-based, only please.

[little carbon]

Freedom of choice on region. Reduced queue time by the virtue of being able to choose a higher populated region. The ability to play with friends cross region. The ability for people with bad connections to play at all.
How is it reduced. Data please

[knotty ore]

Do you even know why some EU and Asia players come to NA servers? lol Less hackers...

[runic crypt]

No, I don't see a source >:[

[little carbon]

I have seen 3 cases of blatant cheating in my last 2k hours of EU high ELO. Seems to be less of a hacker issue over herer

[knotty ore]

No BUDDY you just said experience as a whole for everyone. Them coming here affects their region........

[little carbon]

I assume you mean negatively. If so, prove it

[runic crypt]

I heckin' know for a fact many US players come to the EU region because the players are better skilled and the region has significantly less cheaters. Fight me! It's a fact I talked to soooo many US players so it must be true!

I am an authority on this!

You literally can't deny my statement without contradicting yours 😛

[knotty ore]

This is such a dumb argument you have zero legs to stand on. Any benefit they provide coming to NA is a net negative for their own region. Any downside of them coming to NA servers is a net negative for the NA players. I'm done here, you are trying to assert there is a benefit for the whole player base with allowing people to cross region. The onus of evidence is on you. You can't provide any. I'm out.

[little carbon]

@queen jungle your suggestion already entails the reason why that would be a bad idea

[runic crypt]

The evidence is in pretty much every multiplayer game that exists today, because, you know, literally most of 'em have cross-region unlocked, and the people complaining about it are minimal and make bad arguments. But you know, close your eyes to the world because 99% of it isn't as smart as you probably :/

[little carbon]

How is the ability for players of a fringe ELO group being able to switch to another region a downside. Quite the opposite. Since MMR brackets are reduced in low pop regions, outlier people switching servers makes the matchmaking better within the low pop region since MMR differences in matchmaking are going to be lower. And the outlier people have a chance at playing with people on their skill level

[knotty ore]

You've literally said earlier that devs shouldn't make decisions based on the highest skilled players in the game. lol. Secondly, them coming to another region would mean their own region is suffering worse at the highest tiers of play. So. Net negative for their own region as I've said before.

The benefit to NA is more people, but there are issues with uneven playing field due to ping. So net negative for NA as well.

All net negatives for the player base as a whole. As I've already said

[little carbon]

You are misquoting. And again, data driven counterarguments please

[knotty ore]

You've not provided evidence for your original claim of it being a net positive. This is not how argumentative logic works.

You've asserted that cross-region play is a net positive as a whole. Evidence please.

[little carbon]

If we really want to go into the details of argumentative logic, you would be the first one needed to provide arguments, since you are challenging the status quo

Show data that a change would increase the overall experience

[runic crypt]

The lesson from this discussion is: Region lock will most likely never happen, because it's bad and games have generally moving away from it.

[knotty ore]

Status quo bias is a logical fallacy...........................

[little carbon]

Also modern game network algorithms no longer suffer from ping abuse.

[runic crypt]

Oh right evidence! Ahem: The past 20 years of the gaming industry.

[knotty ore]

This is also wrong.

[little carbon]

Well, not really in this case. Development time is a limited resource, so it needs to be spent on things that actually benefit the game.

[knotty ore]

Pivot

[flat sandal]

well this is heated but have to say this dicord is up there in quality 😄

[little carbon]

So unless a change to a certain status quo is proven to be a gain, there is no reason to invest into it

[little carbon]

Its usually not this bad

[flat sandal]

no I meant it^^

[little carbon]

Huh. Thats quite rare. A lot of people seem to get fed quickly up if long discussions happen

[knotty ore]

Status quo is irrelevant to arguments. Its a logical fallacy to rely on status quo as evidence. Like, literally a logical fallacy. Literally, not just my opinion.

To be ABSOLUTELY FAIR TO YOU. The reason region lock doesn't work is because its easy to get around unless there is significant implementation serverside which is usually a waste of resources.

But, we are arguing whether its a net positive, or net negative.

In terms of effect.

[runic crypt]

If something works, and someone suggests to change it, the person making the suggestion needs to prove why their suggestion is worth trying, if it is, you know, attempting to change something that is working.

Like the saying "Don't fix what ain't broken"

[knotty ore]

You can't disagree that if EU and Asia players were not allowed to play on NA servers in some shape, or form, that it wouldn't be a net benefit to the entire player base.

[little carbon]

I think its quite easy to disagree to that

[knotty ore]

Disagreeing is easy to anything?

[little carbon]

Yes, you have proven that extensively

[knotty ore]

lol, someone bring the burn cream

[flat sandal]

what I will say is that it's weird that I had to choose two regions at the beginning and ended up on NA servers like 50% of the time until I found out I could change it to one

[runic crypt]

Probably because it was trying to match you to a lobby that is the closest to your skill group. That, or if you are playing at an down-time it was getting you a lobby that wasn't empty or getting you a lobby that is full.

[little carbon]

I am guessing you are EU and play mostly in evenings?

[knotty ore]

I have a gigabit connection and even playing on NA East gives me hit responsiveness issues at 80ping. I've tried EU servers just for fun and 6 stars have an issue even hitting me, which is hilarious. I should record it sometime. Positional data is really whack on Hunt servers.

[flat sandal]

yeah but now I always play EU no issue since I only have one region set. I think many people could have the same thing. It's a tiny button to change it

I have below 20 in EU and hat 100 or so in NA, never have matchmaking issues

timewise

at any time really

[little carbon]

At that point in time both region peaks overlap. Hunts region select seems to be not ranked, so if you have a primary and a secondary region set it will find the first match in any of those regions, instead of trying primary first and then falling onto the secondary. Thats why you experiene a 50/50 split at double peak time

You would experience a 50/50 even outside of double peak, as long as both regions have matches "ever ready"

Because at that point its basically a coin toss what you get

[flat sandal]

yeah no,it's fine to put me in NA. I can choose, I just didn't know I could for a long time

didnt even know I was a pesky off-regioner^^

[little carbon]

Yeah, absolutely, just wanted to give you an idea as to why it behaved the way it did

[unborn dagger]

@drifting nacelle Yeah that's never made sense to me with how the game is supposed to work tbh. The game is all about hearing your enemy but it's literally given away by a chat bubble.

[drifting nacelle]

Maybe it's made that way so you can quickly mute someone for saying non-gamer words. But for a game with sound being such a huge part of the game, it makes no sense to keep it in that state. Maybe there is a better way to implement quick mute feature.

[unborn dagger]

That's true but you can't do it for enemy hunters

[drifting nacelle]

My suggestion could be half-assed because i have no idea why they implemented it the way it is.

There is literally no quick-mute button.

[frosty garnet]

@lavish depot, your post below has been deleted, as it doesn't follow the required format.
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maw battery needs more cover for approaching teams.```

[brisk timber]

All this ingame communication restriction nonsense is just an unecessary artifical hurdle that should be patched out as soon as possible. Every premade team can talk freely but random teams that already have a more complicated synergy cant. Everybody can hear you and even read your damn chat.

I would love to have it like in any other game + if you want to be heard by enemies you could switch on by button quickly.

The roleplay and shittalk aspect is really fun but its hard to appreciate that if you have to give up literal communicating freely with your team.

[unborn sandal]

Because you likely don’t speak another language and the majority of people in this server are NA. I think that (and I’m saying this an an American) gamers from the US just like to complain about everything. I have friends in Europe who think it’s funny when we see a cheater, they don’t go and whine on the hunt discord and try to blame one nation for hunts flaws. I’ve seen 3 cheaters in my 700 hours of hunt in servers from Oceania to Europe and all three of them had English sounding steam names

[unborn sandal]

Look kid. Just because you’re xenophobic and can only associate with true blooded, donut eating, mustang driving, cousin marrying Americans doesn’t mean the rest of the community feels that way. I regularly play with people in Oceania and Europe, much like other members of this server. Not having region lock also has gameplay benefits. Allowing people from other countries enter American servers and vice versa allows them to get into full late night or early morning games that might only have had one other team on their native servers. Your arguments have all been opinion based nonsense while you preach about hard evidence

[tender sphinx]

what about lowering bomb lance unlock to level 50-70 for the prestigers now that it has special ammo to unlock?

[knotty ore]

I speak English, Japanese, Russian, Ukrainian...

[knotty ore]

Stop assuming dumb shit. I have nothing against playing with Chinese people, or people from Europe. Since, I am from fucking Europe. The issue is that the ones who intentionally play on NA servers just happen to be cheating, A FUCKING LOT. Stop accusing people of xenophobia and grow up. Ping is also an issue. Stop the REEE and use your brain for once.

[flat sandal]

this still, honestly I feel for you a bit here but still arguing to know that there are differences in cheating based on culture is just asking for trouble and rightfully so. None of us have any real clue in this extremely messy environment. I never know what to do with this, I just don't see cheating and some people claim to see it everywhere.

[little carbon]

Ignoring that first statement, i can only agree with what you are saying

[little carbon]

Considering that multiple people, some of which are potentially more versed in the are of network design (2 people in that discussion, myself included have claimed to have prior knowledge in that area) and some of which are almost guaranteed to be more versed than you in that area (the developers of the game that actually built the networking algorithm) have stated that high ping doesnt yield you any benefit in this game. You might want to consider that you could be wrong in that regard.

And again. If you assume other nations cheaters like to play off-region, then the same would apply for US cheaters. And considering the active playerbases are relatively similar in size (Factor of magnitude of less than x2) its going to be an equal flow in both directions.

[frosty garnet]

@ocean sigil, your post below has been deleted, as it doesn't follow the required format.
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Matched regex in message in #game-ideas (#suggestions-ideas, 524577494863708180):

Add killstreaks kits to your most used weapons which you can buy and put on ur gun/ knife/ medkit when you want to. Like in TF2, there could be more specific kills descriptions, not only "kills : 56" but something like "headshot kills"```

[signal mural]

Why is this discussion about ping abuse still going strong?

[knotty ore]

Probably because low tickrate servers that Hunt runs on are very susceptible to ping abuse?

[little carbon]

Tickrate has nothing to do with ping abuse. Like 2 completely different things

[knotty ore]

I'm just going to ignore Dart from now on because he just disagrees with me regardless of what I say.

Tickrate is literally how often a server refreshes and it is literally the most relevant server metric when it comes to ping abuse. Slower tickrate means slower positional data updates, but w.e. Dart knows best.

You know how on shitty-ass Apex servers you get merced when you are behind cover? Naw that has nothing to do with shitty tickrate... Naw its something else.

OUR GOD IS ABOUT TO SPEAK

DART. ENLIGHTEN USSSSSSS

[little carbon]

A substantially low tickrate creates issues of the same kind that a ping-abuse prone network architecture create. They are however two entirely separate things and arent correlated directly. You can have systems with an absurdly high tickrate that have massive issues with ping abuse and vice versa.

Funnily enough, if the tickrate gets low enough, ping difference becomes less and less relevant. Take a very excessive example. Lets say the server has a tickrate of 1/s. You would get pretty much the same results on clients with pings from 0ms to 500ms.

And i dont get the personal attacks. Its not like i am saying things that are unreasonable. Its mostly stuff you can read up on yourself in professional literature.

[knotty ore]

Personal attacks because you are misleading people with nonsense. Why do people prefer playing on high tickrate servers? Because they are all stupid and don't know what they are talking about? Or, because the positional data is more accurate and it feels better to play on?

Anyone that has ever been lasered in Apex can confirm this. It feels like shit playing on low tickrate servers.

There is a reason why Hunt can't fix trades. Players are killing each other within the same tick. They can never eliminate shitty trades unless they upgrade their servers. Which they won't.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but it would literally be impossible to trade on 128hz tickrate servers. Unless the projectile has significant travel distance.

[crystal plume]

Tickrate increase is not some silver bullet to fix any issue just like that like you seem to think 😄

High tickrate servers are more common for games like valorant or csgo because it's much easier to run the server at a higher tickrate due to there not being much going on

Games like Hunt and Apex have big maps with AI and such

Running something like that at a higher tickrate means the player clients have to also process the information more often, which might lead to degrading performance rather improving it

[little carbon]

I didnt say that low tickrate was better or that it doesnt cause issues, it absolutely does. But it doesnt cause ping advantage like you were saying. These two things are uncorrelated.
And even on basically infinite tickrate the trades that Hunt is mainly having wouldnt be gone, since these trades account for latency difference. Which doesnt change with tickrate.

[knotty ore]

You aren't wrong, to an extent. Hunt runs 30hz servers. Arguably, we'd see better positional performance and less trades on higher tickrate servers. Wouldn't you agree?

[frosty garnet]

@cloud radish, your post below has been deleted, as it doesn't follow the required format.
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Here is a "Suggestion":```

[signal mural]

@ Yeah, I think we, and a good amount of others on the Discord forums, share the perspective you were able to pretty well articulate.

I just mean it's primarily the same 2-3 users in a debate for the past 24hrs.

@unborn dagger I was thinking about this recently but with Meathead maggots rather than snakes... The assets, animations, tracking AI, are all there already. I think a maggot-jar bomb could be cool.

[little jackal]

I wish I could slap somebody with a maggot

[unborn dagger]

Oh my God you're right lol, I'm an idiot

[frosty garnet]

@cunning portal, your post below has been deleted, as it doesn't follow the required format.
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Matched regex in message in #game-ideas (#suggestions-ideas, 524577494863708180):

So i have a few ideas i would like to share: First idea : i think you should add more weather variations. Example: you can do one variation were players load in and the map has snow on the ground already ,so its like the day after a snow storm. Then when they walk around you can see foot prints of other players and yourself. Then you can do one were its actually snowing in and again you can see foot prints but they slowly disappear since its currently snowing.
another one would be a rain variation .the same thing qith foot prints you can see them in the mud.i was also thinking a thunder storm as well and during game play you can do like random lighting strikes and if it hits a tree it cause it to be on fire
try to make the elements of the game as close to real life as possible..
now i was also thinking of a game mode or an open world concept. like instead of players waiting in a boring lobby. you can do something like a saloon. Where player can gamble there hunt dollars or blood bonds playing cards or something while they wait.```

[frosty garnet]

@cunning portal, your post below has been deleted, as it doesn't follow the required format.
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Matched regex in message in #game-ideas (#suggestions-ideas, 524577494863708180):

i was also thinking that you do an open world to something like GTA . you load into a map and your solo or team and you can walk around and interact with things, you can do a raid were players have to go rob a train or something and they have to fight AI and boss.
also i was thinking you add a Monster that hunts down players.so lets say after 15 mins this monster gets released into the map. now the way it hunts i feel should be by what it sees and hears. so that if it does find players its tough to very hard to kill but at the same time players have a chance to run from it
also i was thinking you add a Monster that hunts down players.so lets say after 15 mins this monster gets released into the map. now the way it hunts i feel should be by what it sees and hears. so that if it does find players ,they have a chance to get away. don't make the monster unkillable ,but make it a challenge. dont have the monster be able to always find the players with some auto tracking or something like that. make it so the monster has to track players the same way players track players , by sound and what it sees.
this game has a lot of potential and its the only one around of its kind and it can go far. but alot of players i played with have been getting bored of the game and it needs something new. i tihnk this would help alot as i told ppl of my ideas and alot of ppl like them .i have more ideas to add but its alot to write . plus i can go into better explanation of the things i mentioned before. I hope you guys read this and take it into consideration.```

@cunning portal, your post below has been deleted, as it doesn't follow the required format.
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Matched regex in message in #game-ideas (#suggestions-ideas, 524577494863708180):

[#game-ideas](/guild/350201607788429323/channel/524577494863708180/)  First idea : i think you should add more weather variations. Example: you can do one variation were players load in and the map has snow on the ground already ,so its like the day after a snow storm. Then when they walk around you can see foot prints of other players and yourself. Then you can do one were its actually snowing in and again you can see foot prints but they slowly disappear since its currently snowing.
another one would be a rain variation .the same thing qith foot prints you can see them in the mud.i was also thinking a thunder storm as well and during game play you can do like random lighting strikes and if it hits a tree it cause it to be on fire
try to make the elements of the game as close to real life as possible..```

[frosty garnet]

@cunning portal, your post below has been deleted, as it doesn't follow the required format.
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Matched regex in message in #game-ideas (#suggestions-ideas, 524577494863708180):

[#game-ideas](/guild/350201607788429323/channel/524577494863708180/) i was also thinking that you do an open world to something like GTA . you load into a map and your solo or team and you can walk around and interact with things, you can do a raid were players have to go rob a train or something and they have to fight AI and boss.
also i was thinking you add a Monster that hunts down players.so lets say after 15 mins this monster gets released into the map. now the way it hunts i feel should be by what it sees and hears. so that if it does find players its tough to very hard to kill but at the same time players have a chance to run from it
also i was thinking you add a Monster that hunts down players.so lets say after 15 mins this monster gets released into the map. now the way it hunts i feel should be by what it sees and hears. so that if it does find players ,they have a chance to get away. don't make the monster unkillable ,but make it a challenge. dont have the monster be able to always find the players with some auto tracking or something like that. make it so the monster has to track players the same way players track players , by sound and what it sees.```

[meager birch]

The fuck are you on, the new Bomblance ammo slaps

[unborn dagger]

Yeah I had a team mate who was killing guys left and right with the fire ammo

[frosty garnet]

@vernal plover, your post below has been deleted, as it doesn't follow the required format.
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- Axe - should allow to switch (press x) between Blunt and cut damage
- smoke Grenade
- drop weapon - if we can Pick weapons from dead enemy Hunters then why cant we drop them?
- disarmed traps should get back to inventory just as throw knives and axes get back there (if there is a spare place od course)```

[frosty garnet]

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How about paying extra for better servers rather than making mid skins?```

[iron trench]

@glad steepleI think the biggest problem with this Carbine Revolver 12 Gauge is that it is from the 1900's...

[brisk timber]

@jagged wagon #feedback message
Well to be fair, Stars only tell so much.
Do you think 2975 elo playing against 3025 elo is fair? Sure why not?
Thats 5-Star vs 6-Star

So in your case the other team was maybe close to downrank and you guys close to uprank?

Another reason is (but i cant tell from own experience) could be that 6-Star players have a harder time finding opponents at all. So the system has no real choice as to pool them with 5-Stars.

Hunts player base unfortunately isnt the biggest and then we have different timezones and so on

[outer wedge]

MMR queue is perfectly fine, only problem is lower player base, you have like 5 or 6 regions, 3 queues, brackets, time zones, its normal sometimes a couple of games the MMR is off, its not like you play 10 games in row off your MMR...

[brisk timber]

I try to look at it this way:
Its a challenge and if i kill those guys im in for big MMR gains but if i lose i hardly lose MMR. So why not take this gift 🙂

[frosty garnet]

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Scuba diving hunter aka scuba Steve```

[unborn dagger]

I mean it doesn't really matter. Just as long as it's balanced and fits the style of Hunt of being old fashioned

Hell even avtomat is a 1900 gun

[unborn sandal]

1917 and it definitely doesn’t fit the style of hunt

[jagged wagon]

Nice explination, however I had only just gone back up to 5 star, we still had one as a 4, can't speak for our other 5. Our team Mmr was 4. The other team was 5.5. Doesn't add up... we are just being fed to players we have no business playing against.... happend multiple games in a row, and the fact that we hardly drop mmr doesn't help, it just keeps happening.

[sick anvil]

https://tenor.com/view/palla-deserto-desert-hot-gif-6014273 this sums up the answer

[sick anvil]

when skill based was shit we just played with out skill based most of time it either did give us fair matches or our mmr dropped down where the matches were somewhat fair

[brisk timber]

@delicate robin #game-ideas message
You crazy? You wanna make my solo grind even harder against teams?
But seriously, the loss of a health chunk and the reviving with 100 hp are really vital mechanics to add depth to the game. It starts by considering certain loadouts that can kill a downed hunter again in 1 shot. To the question if you wanna keep on and maybe get a health chunk back from killing a boss.
Its a mechanic that adds punishment, risk and tension

[delicate robin]

tbh the loadout choice basically just boils down to "Do they have long ammo"

I guess I'd also be fine with a long ammo nerf instead.

[flat sandal]

Is long ammo not just good at what it's supposed to be good at, mainly long range? The high damage is often not of much benefit, does lead to some kills that you wouldn't get without in somewhat special scenarios but not outright. Seems like atm it's long range high damage, midrange fire rate, short range one-shot potential. Doesnt seem to bad to me although i dont like shotgun play. If you loose outisde against long ammo with a shotgun in your hands it's kinda on you 😄 vice versa with long ammo rifle inside a conpound

How about a real sort of economy where guns that are being bought a lot get more expensive. That would do some of the balancing for us

Tbh i didn't study damage tables but i dont see/feel the op'ness of long ammo. Must be shotgun players not likeing the outdoors. Good! 😛

[burnt mulch]

the strength of long ammo is in its ability to deal damage from a distance, outside of the effective range of other weapons, the ability to maintain distance (no difference in movement), and the map design which forces players to move across open space where they are vulnerable.

there’s no effective way to punish a long ammo player that’s playing to their strengths (except for another competent long ammo player), any strategy involves relying on them to misplay.

on top of which they maintain closer range pressure. 125+ damage means they can oneshot chest a downedx1 hunter out to at least 40m (Mosin can do 54). They also have some of the best wallbangs.

[tawny meadow]

@wise lake i had to delete your suggestion since more than a suggestion it was a not so well argumented feedback, i guess.

[tribal wyvern]

I think having a way to get your bars back besides boss is an interesting idea. It being a trait is a lame idea.
Psychoghost had some interesting ideas, like you wipe a team but you died, so you can loot points & then to a sacrifice thingie, a ritual or something & get a small bar back.

Because if you had a long fight & died, a boss is banished it's just GG & leave. Especially if you lost a big bar.

[brisk timber]

Its a good thing that stuff evolves around the bosses.
I was debating about adding more monetary value to looting dead hunters and one reeeally important argument against it was: It fosters PvP hide ambushes.
The same case can be made for getting health bars back.
The PvP in Hunt needs to always be less important then the PvE Boss fights and Bounty extraction.
The whole gameplay loop breaks down otherwise.

If people dont have an inherent risk to ambush people out of the blue in the open map because they can get out of the fight bruise free than you have people bush camping everywhere and playing Manhunt mode.

[burnt mulch]

ah yes, you get caught in a long fight, boss gets banished, you leave cuz you cant get your bars back

great pve centrism there

put the restoration at or near the boss compound then or something.

[brisk timber]

What argumentation. ofc you cant avoid random PvP encounters

but you dont want to make them a viable playstyle on their own

I think thats a part of hunt thats actually interesting - do you extract? or do you take the chance even if your down a health bar?

[burnt mulch]

it already is? you can hunt for fights and then leave when you’ve had your fill

[brisk timber]

I dont agree with you. period.

[burnt mulch]

what?

[crystal nacelle]

No the MMR queue ist far from perfekt. First of all the quickplay MMR should bei detached from the bountyhunt MMR. They did that a long time ago with the KD and split it up. I never heard a good argument for not doing that. A big pro argument is to prevent intentional downranking by players without damaging their Bountyhunt KD. Secondly the KD should be at least partially (25% or so) integrated into the ELO Ranking so that long time and short time progress is considered "equally" . The best thing would habe been a ranking with 10* instead of 6* so everything is evaluated more granular and not every rejected 6* ist automatically thrown together with entry Level 5* Teams. If the Playercount is too low you can still match more rougly 8* and 10* for instace.

[brisk timber]

Well the K/D is already integrated into MMR by not counting wins/extractions but killing other hunter.
If you play with a mate and he does all kills on his own you gain nothing in MMR of real value

[tribal wyvern]

I'm not sure that is an argument against my idea.
If you fight a team 3v3 for example. You died once, lost a 25, but you wiped the whole team. You can loot "badges" lets say, you walk to a statue & sacrifice them & get 25 back.

Now you are able to fight that other team that banished the boss more fairly. Even tho you'll be down heals & consumables. But atleast now you won't insta die to a long ammo shot. Because the alternative right now is just to extract & let them have the boss for free.

[brisk timber]

Ok what about people that just setting up ambushes. Then heal themselfes up on shrines?

Why even go Boss before the whole map is wiped?

[tribal wyvern]

What?

[burnt mulch]

.. you can play like that now

[tribal wyvern]

What are u setting up ambushes for, do you join games without full hp?

[brisk timber]

But now if you do that extensively you may lose health chunks and have more risk at Bossfights

[burnt mulch]

what about the shrine thing promotes that gameplay?

[brisk timber]

is that so hard to understand?

https://tenor.com/view/raquita-gif-9201516

[crystal nacelle]

Thats not the point at all and makes no sense in the context. I want to prevent High KD Players to drop too rapidly into (for them) ultraeasy lobbies.

[tribal wyvern]

Im not understanding the scenario you're setting upp @brisk timber .
Your point only works if you died once & the other team ran away without burning you or bothering with your teammates so you got picked up.

My idea is to add ways to continue to fight after you've wiped a team.

[burnt mulch]

no hes crying about the team that sets up an ambush, gets downed, and wins the fight

[brisk timber]

What?
What about 3vs3 where the other team dies and you revive 2 mates of yours?
You go to a shrine, heal back up and fuck up another team with full health.
You can do that all game long till the map is empty and you only Hunt people as a job

You want a Manhunt mode?

[radiant river]

Yeah, doesn't that sound much better than dying to a mosin body shot because you chose to fight and they didn't or just extracting because you're down a bar?

[tribal wyvern]

It would still be a long process to get that bar back. And i said 25, so if you got big ones it doesn't help gettingi t all back.

And if you're fucking groups up left & right, I don't think getting hp back is the issue lol.

I think you're in a to low mmr

[burnt mulch]

of course, collecting 3 clues, killing boss, afking for 5 minutes, and leaving across the map without seeing people cuz they fought without you is much more fun /s

[tribal wyvern]

And ye it sounds alot better, because now you can actually continue to play & take on a bounty team that banished the boss.
Instead of giving it for free because you happened to land in a 3v3 spawn fight.

You're still down consumables & heals.

[burnt mulch]

you know what the risk is in killing people? getting murdered

[tribal wyvern]

The magical scenario you paint that they somehow wipe entire servers because they got a 25hp bar back. Is pretty silly

[brisk timber]

I dont know guys. There already is a way to get a bar back and it is killing as Boss.
If you get caught up in useless fights in the open map - so be it.
Sometimes youre the tree sometimes your the dog.
If you want your bar back go find a boss ASAP.
If youre a damn hero you try to fight the bounty team anyway - because your have the balls.

Its part of the tension.

[burnt mulch]

killing the boss is nowhere near a reliable way to get back bars.

[tribal wyvern]

Theres no tension in "shit im down 50, lets extract & starta new game"

[brisk timber]

what?

[brisk timber]

if your such a coward than yeah

[tribal wyvern]

Lmao

Thats your opinion. Not a fact.

[brisk timber]

thats an opinion aswell

[burnt mulch]

“there already is a way to get bar back and it is killing as Boss” thats not reliable.

[tribal wyvern]

So you're saying there is tension in turnin around & avoiding everyone & exiting the game?

[brisk timber]

No i didnt say that - read again.

[burnt mulch]

the problem is the line between bravery and foolishness

[tribal wyvern]

Then why do you wanna explicitly call it an opinion?
Doesn't sound like agreeing.

[brisk timber]

Just yesterday i had a game where we had a massive Showdown at a bounty. I died 2 times but we could fend everyone off. I was down to 100hp.
We knew there was still a team out there or a solo because we saw one in dark vision.
So we had the choice - extract or second bounty?

That was really tense and we could do second boss and kill the other team.
Man that felt way better than anything.

[radiant river]

If you get caught up in a fight you will almost never be the first to the boss

[burnt mulch]

see, the thing is

[tribal wyvern]

Ye the fight was tense

[burnt mulch]

is it brave or foolish to fight at such a disadvantage

[tribal wyvern]

Not the option to leave

[burnt mulch]

balls or stupidity

[brisk timber]

But the fight was more tense because the risk was inherently higher.

[burnt mulch]

yeah, nah lol

[tribal wyvern]

Well not what i was arguing

[burnt mulch]

burn off your own bars if you want to “risk” getting bodyshot by a mosin

[brisk timber]

Well i think all arguments are exchanged 🙂 the rest is subjective

good discussion!

[radiant river]

I find the most tense fights to be longer ones where you get to test your skill, not ones where you die in 1 bodyshot

[burnt mulch]

idk about you but its not fun running across the map to die to a half-hearted flick, when i could instead run across the map to an extract

when all’s said and done, resupplying at a depot or with a ritual ingame isnt much different than extracting and buying your bars back. except one of those keeps people playing and trying for the bounty.

[tribal wyvern]

True. I was up 1v2, all with full hp. That was intense & awesome.
But dieing to a sneeze because you had lost hp is not fun.

I got 2.8k hours & I just extract if i lose hp after a fight, I know how it will turn out 9.9/10 times. Unless theres a boss to banish obviously, but there rarely is.

[brisk timber]

I love the idea of shrines

Gotta camp them for easy kills

:)

[burnt mulch]

wow its almost like we have shrines already they’re called clues

and the boss itself

y’know, objectives

or hey, you could camp extracts

plenty of things to camp if you want to camp

[brisk timber]

But they dont attract weak Hunter like moths to the light

[burnt mulch]

then hunters get to die trying instead of extracting. what exactly is your point?

[brisk timber]

That would actually be lovely places to sit in a bush with a mosin! 😮

[tribal wyvern]

I mean if you wanna KD farm then go for it. As he said, plenty of shit to camp already.
This will hardly make any difference.

And if you gonna sit close enough to do 125dmg with a guaranteed bodyshot, then might aswell aim for the head as you'd do all other times.

[brisk timber]

then people like you come crying "Mosin bush campers kill me in one shot at Health Bar Shrines" 😄

nerf mosin

[tribal wyvern]

Any other shower arguments you wanna bring?
I got 2.8k hours in the game, I think i would have "cried" already a year ago if Mosin was that OP.

[burnt mulch]

I dont give a shit about mosins camping or not. a mosin doesnt have to be camping to one shot me in the boss lair.

[brisk timber]

The amount of bush camping would go up because nobody had something to lose anyway.
Everyone runs in direction of gunshots instead to boss. Because getting health bars back? NP!

[burnt mulch]

people kill the boss and wait in lair, are they camping?

[tribal wyvern]

Pvp in a pvp game, insane idea i know, heretics!

[burnt mulch]

dude people get into fights because people like to fight.

getting bars back is no problem already, just extract and get the bars back

[brisk timber]

Hunt is not Fortnite or PubG

[tribal wyvern]

A guy i watch on youtube, Grummbbles, he extracts if he server wipes without getting the bounty.
Many teams i join here doesn't wanna grab the 2nd bounty if it's far away.

People always gets attracted to pvp

[brisk timber]

Yea because its not a damn battle royale and i for one am glad it isnt!

[tribal wyvern]

Wether it's to 3rd party or to camp a shrine

[brisk timber]

dont make it one pls :S

there are enought of them out there

[burnt mulch]

it doesnt have to be a battle royale for people to mainly play it for pvp.

[tribal wyvern]

So getting bars back by pvping, is making it a battle royale, how?

You could argue it already is one then by that logic, as the boss literally exists to provoke pvp

[burnt mulch]

or are you saying that people play hunt showdown for the deep PvE experience?

[brisk timber]

Because you have suddently people play it wwwway more in favor for a manhunt "last man standing" mode

You make the Boss battles more obsolete

dont you understand that?

[tribal wyvern]

Well besides getting money, the boss is pretty obsolete already

[burnt mulch]

plus if you’re spending all your time hunting people, someone can kill the boss and run.

[brisk timber]

Bad enough right.

[tribal wyvern]

Nah, boss is just a way for me to find players & to get some money back. Tho iam prestiging atm so i rarely care about my money.

[burnt mulch]

the boss restoring bars on kill is like.. the least relevant part of the boss, outside of restoring them mid-combat or for the heal, or if everyone died at bounty 1.

[tribal wyvern]

I mean they have sticky bombs that deal 75% of their hp, u can suicide with big dynamite bundle & oneshot them.

Some guns like nitro & bomblance can 3-4 shot them.

They're just pinatas that gives us a common goal. To bring more pvp

[brisk timber]

Tbh i love Hunt for this fine balance between PvP and PvE.
The PvE enables the setting the PvP evolves around.

[burnt mulch]

.. right, so… the pve is the setting and the pvp is the content

the pvp is the content

[brisk timber]

Thats the only reason we dont have walls that closing in like other open map shooters

Because people tend to be scattered and bush wookie all over the map

We need a reason to go to Bosses

[tribal wyvern]

Ye but the pve is interesting for like the first 100 hours.
After that it's "meh."

[burnt mulch]

the reason to go to bosses is there are people there.

[tribal wyvern]

Same mobs, same bosses, same scenarios, same mechanics.

The players are what makes the game repeatable.

No pve - game is fine. No pvp - dead.

[burnt mulch]

you can earn money there.

the bars is not why you go for a boss.

[brisk timber]

Its both. You also need a bounty every now and than or its gonna be hard if youre not a Winfield or free Hunter only player.

[tribal wyvern]

Pve was more fun tho when u could bring an army of zombies & have them jump on your target

Or hounds

But perhaps not so fun for the victim

[burnt mulch]

kill everyone at the boss and you get bounty as a byproduct.

or you can try to escape with bounty sure

[brisk timber]

Yea i know. But still is good to have the Boss as a hub.
I dont want more of this bush wookie shit.
You want that a downed bush wookie team can go heal up and do more bush wookie stuff.

Annoying.

My brother quit the game because of this 6* k/d farm bush wookies

now you wanna give them healthbars for free 😄

[burnt mulch]

and now we’ve talked about going for the boss. Guess what we haven’t talked about. Bars.

lmao

you dont go to the boss looking for bars. especially not when the boss is already being banished and theres no longer a way to get bars back

those “k/d farm bush wookies” would love for you to waltz up to fight over the boss down bars.

[brisk timber]

Ok and your solution for that is make fights in the open easier for everyone?

[burnt mulch]

you think its easier to fight everyone on the server before going for boss?

[brisk timber]

Gooood. Why is it so hard to understand that you dont want to buff people taking unnecessary fights outside of Boss areas?

[tribal wyvern]

How are they unnecessary?

[burnt mulch]

because if you just wanted people to fight at the boss, just skip all the foreplay and spawn everyone at the same compound

[brisk timber]

Because they are unbalanced by nature. Literally by nature

[burnt mulch]

what?

[tribal wyvern]

Im asking you to elaborate on how a fight outside boss area is unnecessary.

[brisk timber]

Yes because teams crouch walking and sitting in bushes with silenced weapons are toxic and this will only benefit them even more

In Hunt you already have the downside if youre the one making first moves because the way how sound works

Now you wanna buff open world Manhunting

its stupid

[tribal wyvern]

So fights outside boss area are not unnecessary then or you intend to keep avoiding answering it?

[brisk timber]

They are unnecessary in the way that they are often very unbalanced. The Boss area adds a form of predictability that is needed for a good PvP experience

[tribal wyvern]

Them being unbalanced doesn't make them unnecessary.

[brisk timber]

Now youre picking words apart my dude

sheesh

[burnt mulch]

no hes not lol

[tribal wyvern]

I picked a sentence

Not picking any words apart.

[brisk timber]

ok then lets exchange "unnecessary" for "unbalanced" and move on ok?

[burnt mulch]

ok. so you dont like unbalanced fights?

[tribal wyvern]

So fights outside the boss area are unbalanced.
Sure. But so could fights in the boss area be aswell if 1 team has been downed once.

[brisk timber]

i like them if i can choose to take them or can choose to take a exit plan and try another time if i feel like. yes.

i dont fall for this trap

[burnt mulch]

ah thats different

[brisk timber]

[burnt mulch]

you don’t like “fights that you didn’t start”

[radiant river]

??? How

[tribal wyvern]

And i mean fights at the boss lair can be even more unbalanced.

[burnt mulch]

you like fights that you chose

[tribal wyvern]

You push & a team is waiting in the bushes to attack whoever makes a move

Happens alot

especially in 2v2

[radiant river]

Allowing bars to come back rewards people who pvp

[brisk timber]

You start making assumptions and putting mords in my mouth.

[tribal wyvern]

Well not so much as rewarding as just not punishing them

[burnt mulch]

I’m saying what you’re describing.

[brisk timber]

i didnt say that.

[burnt mulch]

i like them if i can choose to take them or can choose to take a exit plan and try another time if i feel like. yes.

“i like them if i can choose to take them”

the part you don’t like is getting ambushed and fighting when you didnt choose to

[brisk timber]

Ok an the context were fights where im at risky already. Not every fight like you make it sound.

Dude dont do that.

[burnt mulch]

ok then

what makes fights outside boss areas unbalanced

[brisk timber]

https://tenor.com/view/its-groundhog-day-again-reporting-news-bill-murray-groundhog-day-gif-10873928

[burnt mulch]

because it seems to me like fighting 50 hp down at the boss area… is unbalanced

[brisk timber]

Yea but you dont come to a boss area and are like "Whoops where are my 50 hp suddently"

[tribal wyvern]

He says that because he thinks every fight outside boss area = camping in bushes. And every fight in boss area is always 1 team vs another.

[burnt mulch]

so its because you chose to fight 50 hp down? alright. what makes fights outside boss arenas different?

[brisk timber]

I dont say that.

[tribal wyvern]

So far those are the only examples you've made

Boss area = predictability. And outside it's unbalanced, because everyone camps

[burnt mulch]

This is our current understanding of your argument

[radiant river]

What does hiding in a bush have to do with this?

[burnt mulch]

if you want to correct us, please do.

[radiant river]

Health bars coming back benefits pvpers who actively take fights

[burnt mulch]

the fact that we all read the same thing from your explanation kinda points to your explanation being the problem, not our misunderstanding.

so explain.

[radiant river]

If you're hiding in a bush you plan to not lose a bar anyways

And as weirdly as people choose to play this game, there's not a bush camping team in every lobby

[brisk timber]

I think i got my point across and i feel like its more of a thing on which side of the subjective discussion youre on. Its neither inherently right or wrong. Its a matter of taste. My taste is that i like PvP fights bound more to the PvE content like Boss Areas.
And tbh its getting a bit tiresome now 😄

[radiant river]

What mmr are you

[burnt mulch]

lmao

[radiant river]

Asking because our gameplay experiences seem very different

In terms of the kind of people you run into

[burnt mulch]

what is the subjective discussion? I don’t even think we agreed on what you’re trying to argue

[brisk timber]

Everything.
One week im 3stars other week im 5stars. It depends what mode and with whom i play.

[burnt mulch]

“i want fights at the boss arena”?

[brisk timber]

Ok

[burnt mulch]

what are you even trying to argue lol

[brisk timber]

Ok

[burnt mulch]

lol

[radiant river]

I won't argue much further, however if all the people asking for this to be implemented claim to like pvp and not bush camping, why do you think it benefits bush campers?

[burnt mulch]

you know you can just stop arguing instead of trying to get the last snarky word in

[brisk timber]

hm is that so? im honest interested, so far if only seen this discussion right now
no sarcasm right now, are there more people that want that?

[brisk timber]

You mean like trying to build a bridge that the topic is subjective only to get rejected by my discussion partner?

[radiant river]

It's something all the people I play hunt with always wish for; some other way to get bars back in match

If we choose to take a fight instead of bush camping, we are punished instead of rewarded. Assuming anyone goes down

[brisk timber]

Well on the other hand i looove to play solo and nobody want me to self revive
Now teams want to get their health bars back and making my solo life even harder

I think people only want whats good for them often

[radiant river]

I think it's good for gameplay. It promotes being active and taking risks

[brisk timber]

Hm.. i could think of a compromise

[radiant river]

Self revive (in it's old form) promotes sitting there waiting for a random time when noone it looking and pressing a button

[tribal wyvern]

How unfortunate you can't one tap players in the bodyshot.
:/

[brisk timber]

maybe put a shrine inside boss lairs

[burnt mulch]

its not a bridge its you giving up on explaining what you’re trying to say and defending your point lol. but believe what you want.

[brisk timber]

That would make it possible to get health bars back without boss kill

[tribal wyvern]

Only by wiping a team. Infact i think that take more skills than killing a boss

[burnt mulch]

and I’m sure “ok” was building a bridge too

[radiant river]

That's rarely useful because if you take a fight you will often not be the first to the boss

[burnt mulch]

@snow hedge a 300ms flash would do fuck-all.

[snow hedge]

not 300 3000ms

[burnt mulch]

and ehhhhh

I don't really agree with blurring instead of blinding either, you can pretty easily still hold an angle with a shotgun

[brisk timber]

a mix of both would be good tbh

Complete flash for like 3 sec

[frosty garnet]

@carmine oar, your post below has been deleted, as it doesn't follow the required format.
You can find all guidelines pinned in the ideas channel.

Please feel free to re-post your idea using the correct format:
Matched regex in message in #game-ideas (#suggestions-ideas, 524577494863708180):

Titel: After Game Reports

Description: Please give us accurate numbers after every match so we can see in detail how many damage we did to other hunters. This would give this game so much more depth and we could learn out of every round. It can be so frustrating to get killed by someone you hit so many times before, and you simply can not understand why the opponent did not die. An detailed after action report would get rid of all the frustration so many players have because you would clearly see how much damage you have done to the other player or even more details. Numbers are always great in games like this.```

[brisk timber]

than a twindling effect for another 3sec

[snow hedge]

@brisk timber total durations of 6 sec? that is more OP than just complete whitescreen for 5 sec.

[little jackal]

To not jump right away from op to underp I've been thinking about replacing full #000 white with a snapshot of the scene. This would lower skill ceiling a little bit, but 6 stars can navigate blindly just by memory and thus flashes don't mean inevitable death for them. With a snapshot less skilled people would have a similar chance.

also beneficial for eyes of everyone

[frosty garnet]

@carmine oar, your post below has been deleted, as it doesn't follow the required format.
You can find all guidelines pinned in the ideas channel.

Please feel free to re-post your idea using the correct format:
Matched regex in message in #game-ideas (#suggestions-ideas, 524577494863708180):

Titel: After Game Reports
Description: Please give us accurate numbers after every match so we can see in detail how many damage we did to other hunters. This would give this game so much more depth and we could learn out of every round. It can be so frustrating to get killed by someone you hit so many times before, and you simply can not understand why the opponent did not die. An detailed after action report would get rid of all the frustration so many players have because you would clearly see how much damage you have done to the other player or even more details. Numbers are always great in games like this.```

[crystal plume]

@queen bane Just posting a clip is not considered feedback

[queen bane]

I didn't know there was a 30 min cool down 🙂

so couldn't write the second message

couldn't find a report channel so posted on feedback

looked like a cheat

[burnt mulch]

!report

[marsh garden]

If you would like to report a player, you can do so on the Team Details tab on your Match Summary screen. It is also accessible in the Last Match tab at any time. If you have additional proof you would like to provide, you can find out how to reach out to official support here: #customer-support

[crystal plume]

You had packet loss

You can see the packet loss warning icon when you die in the clip

[little jackal]

Athough I get why QP doesn't have SBMM, sometimes I wish it did. At least two brackets, for those with balls and those without, and players would have to choose where they belonged. The only things that are not quick in quickplay for me are waiting for potato PC enjoyers taking hours to load in, and people in the bushes around the wellspring scared shitless to do anything.

[frosty garnet]

@deep star, your post below has been deleted, as it doesn't follow the required format.
You can find all guidelines pinned in the ideas channel.

Please feel free to re-post your idea using the correct format:
Matched regex in message in #game-ideas (#suggestions-ideas, 524577494863708180):

When are we gonna get a new monster?```

[tiny cobalt]

@knotty ore You should probably be more specific on how to add anti-camping mechanics. After all, the devs made concertina bombs and stalker beetles, two of the strongest camping tools, for the purpose of anti-canping.

[unborn dagger]

^

[knotty ore]

They are pretty useless in general which is why you never see them. Throwing out an idea on this discord is pointless because all the 3 stars come out of the woodwork to defend the current state of the game.

Er, the bug that is, Tina is good, but its hardly an anti-camping mechanic.

Flash is kind of the only good anti corner holding mechanic, but that only works if you know where they are, or you smell them using your ESP

Right now, the crouch button increases your chance to win by like 25%

As long as you don't use WASD

[inland ravine]

getting really fucking annoyed that the only options in this game is empty duo lobbies or full 6 star trios

SKMM and MMR in this game is so shit

[knotty ore]

I think people only play really during events because the stale meta changes a little bit. People play varied loadouts and actually try to do shit instead of sitting for most of the game.

[inland ravine]

yeah dead game tbh

[unborn dagger]

10k to 20k player base ain't exactly what I would call a "dead" game

[little jackal]

would be cool if you could carry a beetle in your hands similar to lamps and used traps

in its current state it just doesn't have a place in a lot of builds

[knotty ore]

The beetle should also have much better visibility without having to set your graphics settings a certain way to see more.

[little jackal]

idk I'm fine with how it is right now

thing is I don't encounter that many absolute stealth mode campers, curious where you all find them

beetle for me is just a fun mechanic to fool around with

[unborn sandal]

There are two groups of compound campers: the scared newbies in 3 star that are too afraid to move, and the 5-6 star k/d farmers that won’t dare risk their precious number dropping by having fun

[brisk timber]

Well what would you do if you use dark sight and suddently multiple orange shemes pop up in all directions around the compount?

Let the guys outside fight it out first. But if no one moves outside then dont blame the inside guys.

Its also very beneficial to sometimes stop camping the bounty team and give them a bit of room to leave (move outside their vision range).
Stalling a showdown is often the fault of both sides

[unborn sandal]

If I’m in a situation where no one is making a move I’ll just run out on the easiest target and try to make a play. I play hunt to have fun not to save my hunter

[brisk timber]

Yea ok thats cool and all. But i think playing with a tactic in mind isnt wrong either. People who wait inside a compound while outside wait two handful of mosins and lebels are not to blame for anything

You know. People can try to move inside aswell.

The only people i despise are bounty team that fear to leave like at all and wait for the time to run out

[unborn sandal]

If I don’t have the guns for the situation and I know it’s impossible I’ll just leave. I don’t like giving people the satisfaction of killing me if I’m trapped like a fish in a barrel

[knotty ore]

Everywhere. People don't ever make aggressive plays because there is no point. Nothing is encouraging them to do it. They just crouch in a bush mid combat and just wait. Or, they hold a corner and just wait.

[unborn sandal]

Fun. That’s the encouragement

That’s what games are about

[knotty ore]

Doesn't seem like it. People don't give a shit about fun. The game mechanics need to reinforce people making plays. Right now the mechanics reinforce camping. They need to patch shit, or no one is going to want to play outside of events.

[unborn sandal]

That’s your opinion. I’m perfectly capable of avoiding players I’m not capable of dealing with and capitalizing on good situations. If you want to play sniper or shotgun and sit there for 20 minutes good for you. I’ll either find another way or just leave

If my teammates act like that I’ll just rush in, do what I can, and if the inevitable happens and I die I’ll just throw on a YouTube video to tune out the complaints

[knotty ore]

The counterplay to people playing slow is to play slower. Just wait them out. The game is reinforcing this and its awful game design.

[mortal ice]

mmr seems to mean nothing and theres no level based matchmaking. i cant play against sweaty people who are rank 91 prestige 11 when im only level 33 prestige 0.

[wary hinge]

prestige and level tend to mean very little after 20+ hours of play since most people tend to stop prestiging when they realize it isnt really worth the rewards

you can have prestige 1 people who have played the game for 3k hours and are 6 stars and prestige 10 people who have played the game for 40 hours and are 3 stars

the real mmr is the star system but that is bad not due to prestige matchmaking or whatever but since people can very push themselves down to 2-3 stars by suiciding a bunch to other players

[mortal ice]

still they have 20+ hours and ive not gotten the handle on it or leveled enough to get more guns, levels, skills, etc

im just raniting about dying repeatedly to higher level people that seem like they should either be in higher mmr or different matches

[wary hinge]

Citation needed but i also think prestige 0's or at least people still in that grace period cannot encounter people above a certain prestige

[mortal ice]

i got some where i can extract almost every time for like 5-6 times but then get absolutely humbled by some random guy and a nagant from like 75m away

[unborn sandal]

People before bloodline 11 are locked to 1 mmr so they’re really against the worst of the worst if they play solo

There’s no realistic way to get down to 1 mmr other than being really REALLY bad

[wary hinge]

well hes bloodline 33 so he is out of that 11 lvl grace period

prolly just encountering some upper 3 stars as a 2 star or smth

[unborn sandal]

Nah he’s encountering 5 stars that abuse quick play

[wary hinge]

Not nessecarily

[mortal ice]

there any way to check accurate mmr on yourself?

[wary hinge]

could be anyone humbling someone that new

[unborn sandal]

Right before the event ended I felt like trying to get down to 3 star and from high 5 star it only took 2 games of abusing solo necro

[mortal ice]

nah they had some legendary with no scope from 75 or 76 m away

[wary hinge]

if you click your username you can see all your info
its not always the best but is better than simply some stars

[unborn sandal]

If their kd is higher than 1.25 then they are mmr abusing

[remote ore]

kd and mmr are totally unrelated.

[oak plaza]

wait im MMR abusing POG

[remote ore]

also not sure where you pulled that 1.25 value from

[oak plaza]

idk but after a certian amount of play time your kd wont change much eitherway so KD and MMR arnt related tbh mayyybe in 1* and 2*

[remote ore]

indeed, MMR moves fast and doesn't depend on your previous games

while KDA tends to move slower and slower the more kills/deaths you have

technically, you can have a KDA of 0.5 and have a hard time to move it up, and still reach 6* MMR if you get good after some time

or the other way around, you could be killed by several 3* after a few bad matches, and quickly lose your stars, while keeping a good KDA ratio

[oak plaza]

^ this. I have met a lot of cracked players in 6 star which have worse KDA then me but are just better in everyway.

ya I agree would be nice if the MMR moved a tad slower legit dropped from 5* mmr match making to 3.5 one day just because i wasnt feeling it

it didnt even take 5 matches for me to drop that low 😛

[remote ore]

I'm part of those people who think MMR should be completely removed, and players should be matched randomly against each other

probably not a popular opinion, but I'm happy to share it 😁

[oak plaza]

I mean woudnt be the worst but then again you have to remeber that there is a huge skill gap between 3 Stars and 4 Star players and a 6 star player. Also new players would probs get there poop pushed in and would likley not want to learn the game, only reason why I enjoy MMR match making in games

[remote ore]

the thing is that between a system that doesn't work for the purpose it was designed for, and the absence of a system, I'd pick the latter

MMR should work differently in order to be useful

[oak plaza]

Yes the MMR system needs a overhaul for sure. There is enough people abusing the fact you can de rank super fast just to play in a lower MMR but tbh I woudnt even know how to fix it. Only way I think you can is make it slower to increase or decrease in mmr

[remote ore]

Yes I'm sure it's a complex topic to design properly

maybe the ability to extract a bounty should play a role in your MMR

not sure though. I'll leave that to the designers :)

maybe they think the MMR works good enough for now

[oak plaza]

For the time being its good because as you said its complex topic. Personally woudnt be a fan if bounty counted to your mmr because there is enough people that just take the bounty and run out if not contested even though yes you could blame the players for that

[remote ore]

one of the problems is that you have many different playstyles too

let's say you play sniper for a while, then you get a better MMR for that because you don't die often compared to players who fight closer

but then you switch your playstyle and favor shotguns instead for example

if MMR moves too slowly, you have the risk of being stuck with people who will anihilate you at close range because you don't have the required experience in that game style yet

maybe the range you fight or the damage you take should also be used to compute your overall MMR

[oak plaza]

That would be interesting 🤔 so you mmr is based of how other people preform with said weapon type or well it gets calculated in. Considering Crytech probs has a lot of data on this it would be possible

[little carbon]

But saying just because the system isnt working perfectly, that no system would be better doesnt really make sense. MMR is working quite well most of the time. Probably the only issues i'd see with the current MMR is the fact that it is generally moving a bit too fast, which isnt too big of an issue and of course the fact that you can derank yourself.
I cant say anything on how problematic that is cause i dont play in an ELO people derank into. But even then, this is fixable, and generally doesnt influence whether the system itself is good or not.

[remote ore]

Some people would argue that the system doesn't work at all. It depends on your point of view I guess. Personally I'm not a fan of matchmaking in general. I grew up with games that didn't have such systems and it encouraged me to improve my skills. This is also why my personal preference will always go toward a MMR-less system. I understand this is not the preference of the majority of the players and that's fine. Just voicing my opinion that's all :)

[frosty garnet]

@somber folio, your post below has been deleted, as it doesn't follow the required format.
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Matched regex in message in #game-ideas (#suggestions-ideas, 524577494863708180):

I think to make the gun oil more "exciting" to find, they should allow it to remove the contraband status on weapons. What do you all think?```

[hot vigil]

Not sure how old you are when you say you grew up without matchmaking. But from my experience the time before matchmaking had dedicated servers and communties where you would find a server matching your playstyle/skill level or just flat out have friends to hang and goof with.
If you got your ass kicked too much on one server, you just skipped to another one.

[radiant river]

Also no matchmaking is more common in games like battlefield where it doesn't matter because teams are so big and you get into so many fights

In hunt where it's just 3 of you and it's slow paced, getting outmatched can feel oppressive

[unborn sandal]

He was talking about in 3 star

He’s a fresh player getting steamrolled by 5 and 6 stars that are using quick play to drop mmr if you’d read the messages I replied to

[frosty garnet]

@rustic rain, your post below has been deleted, as it doesn't follow the required format.
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Matched regex in message in #game-ideas (#suggestions-ideas, 524577494863708180):

New skin idea: Steampunk robo hunter. That is all.```

[little carbon]

There can be legit 3 star players with loads of hours and a KDA of above 1.25 tho, that isn't necessarily someone deranking.

[unborn sandal]

You would have to constantly kill 1 and 2 stars and only get killed by 5 and 6 stars to have a high kd while staying at 3 stars. There’s probably one case of a player that is naturally at 3mmr with the skill set that H4nkH1ll described

[little carbon]

Not necessarily. First of all, pure KD is going to be a distribution over the whole bracket, with people at the lower end of the bracket gravitating to a lower KD (most likely sub 1) and people at the top end of the bracket gravitating towards a higher KD (most likely above 1). These could realistically already be ranges from 0.5 to 1.5 depending on ELO calculations and bracket sizes.
Important to remember here is that stars arent equal to brackets.
Then there is also the fact that we have a KDA and not a KD. With that there is going to be drift of all these values upward.
For people that play mostly in the same premades this effect can also be strengthened, since with sufficient teamplay and strategy one could get assists relatively reliable. Consider that for a KDA of as high 2 you would only need a neutral KD of 1 and an assist for every kill you get.

[chilly nova]

Frag grenade took me down to like 10hp in a situation where it had to penetrate multiple wood walls. That's a bit overkill. I can see maybe apply bleed and like half health through all that.

[chilly nova]

Even if it could be a 3 star, we all know that there are a lot of people deranking like this.

[little carbon]

Of course, not arguing that it was likely not a real 3 star in the situation the very first poster wrote. My argument was to counter the point Basil made about being able to surely tell if its a deranker if their KDA is above 1.25. Which just isnt the case

[chilly nova]

Definitely. Just saying, it's an issue that needs to get addressed. They cannot have the MMR shared anymore.

[little carbon]

Absolutely agreed.

[chilly nova]

Looking at the patch notes and the bugfixes seem very low priority compared to some that I and others have reported over the last year or so and still aren't fixed.

[worthy knoll]

@fair rover does the Drops Event give a Questline again this time? Did Not Hear about this

[sharp veldt]

No it does not

[unborn dagger]

Yay a miracle

[ripe basalt]

Please ensure your #game-ideas posts are not low effort to prevent them from being deleted.

[worthy knoll]

Thanks for answering.

[dry seal]

Is the audio trash since the end of the fire event ?
I stopped playing the game for a month, went on PUBG. Then came back and all my mates and me feel like the audio is awful to say the least.
I feel like playing in a "sphere" with distorded sounds

[willow burrow]

"Fixed an issue that caused a bright light to show incorrectly in the basement of the Chapel of Madonna Noire." Idk if this is fixed, but Church basement lighting when facing west def isn't.

[normal horizon]

Do you have a screen shot perhaps?

[zinc solstice]

@queen jungle im afraid prestige is meant to take ages

shortening the time to prestige would be against the whole point

[queen jungle]

Well that's sad, anyway if community wanted it names and whole points can change, but yeah nothing to do if community doesn't want that specific change.

[zinc solstice]

few people actually care about prestige, so i dont see that movement coming any time soon

[quiet iris]

@queen jungle don’t think prestige in any game is a “respect” thing. With all honesty - to me it just signals that the person has had a lot of time to play the game (which doesn’t really signal of how good the person in question is). In hunt, prestige was a more a way to keep people grinding, like “I unlocked everything!.. time to do it again for a bigger number! Huzzah!”. It was the same way (and still is in some) in other games at the time.

[crystal plume]

Also you can do 100 prestiges under 1k hours, especially if you did it during the last event

Just depends on how well you can keep your lvl 50 hunters alive

And seeing P100 players was more impressive in the early days of increasing the prestige cap to 100, there's quite a few of them these days so it's not really a "wow" factor anymore

[frosty garnet]

@lyric ibex, your post below has been deleted, as it doesn't follow the required format.
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Matched regex in message in #game-ideas (#suggestions-ideas, 524577494863708180):

1.) Title : Team Death Match / 5v5  [Basic Gamemode]
-------------------------------------------
I would love to have a Team Death Match Feature.
Either Remove Traits or have a standard traits that everyone has on default. 

Spawning in with a Single Pistol and a selected melee weapons [ Machete/axe/Knuckle Knife]
Weapons are spread around the map like Halo [  Random Primary Weapon Box ]  or [ Random Secondary ] 
Either win by Kill Points or Rounds would be fine.```

[hot vigil]

Issue with prestige ain't it "takes ages to do" issue is that prestiging have become more and more tedious with the amount of content bloat the game have gotten over the years.
The custom ammo update was where we got hit hardest, now certain weapons have 8+ unlocks and to unlock the big vitality shot you have to use like 15 small vitality shots to unlock it.
More so, after you hit prestige 10, the legendary weapon prestige rewards becomes so sparse that you have to play more to gain less.
The whole system just need a overhaul to lessen the pain of actually prestiging, doesn't matter how quickly you can do it if its tedious to begin with.

[queen jungle]

Agreed, but anyway if it was like this for forever then to me it doesn't seem like community really wants a change so yeah I'm just not gonna prestige until devs add their changes to prestige and then I'll see if prestige becomes more worth to do as well.

[worthy knoll]

The Community is crying for ages for a Prestige overhaul, since the General opinion is that it Just does Not make Sense to Prestige at all.

[hot vigil]

Prestige can be fixed in two ways:
"Easy": More prestige skins dotted out thru the progress, sure still painful, but rn, I am prestige 25 and I get my next skin in... 25 more levels at 50.
Hard: Actually overhaul the whole system so prestiging doesn't put you back to the stone age every time.
Best "easy solution" IMO would be a flat 1% weapon exp boost for everytime you prestige, so I would have 25% weapon exp boost rn and would unlock my variants faster and it just gets faster and faster as you keep investing into prestiging.

[remote ore]

you have already a nice icon when you reach prestige 100, why would you want anything else

[worthy knoll]

Tbh i would Like all three combined, Sounds mich more Well rounded.
Most likely I still would Not Prestige but thats a Personal thing

[abstract burrow]

If they say something got patched and removed from the game I would think they actually patched it but no the light in the basement of church is still there so we had a 1.8gb update for nothing

and if they would actually fix things they would have a great great game with a large player base but no

[soft river]

@queen jungle Thats the price you pay to prestige

If its too much for you, be based and don’t prestige

Its literally grind for nothing

[queen jungle]

Now that I think, if every prestige level had a prestige skin reward, what would be the point if prestige still takes so much time? What's the point of creating a skin where only people who played more than 1600 hours can get it?

The reason prestige shouldn't be this long is that players should be able to enjoy these content without needing to spend 1600 hours.

Also I think this is why prestige 100 skin in this game isn't the best skin in this game, cuz players want these skins and players needing to spend more than 1600 hours to get a skin wouldn't create a happy thing imo.

[crystal plume]

You can do 100 prestiges in way less time than 1600 hours, entirely depends on how well you perform 😄

[queen jungle]

I mean when I looked on reddit I saw lots of player saying they got prestige 100 with 1600 hours, also 1 prestige 100 player in game said they got prestige 100 with 2000-3000 hours if I remember correctly, and yeah it's easy for high skilled players, I'm not really a high skilled player in this game so it probably would take more than 1600 hours for me, so yeah I'll stay on prestige 6

[crystal plume]

And that's fine, it's not meant for everyone

[flat sandal]

Random though, isn't maxing out hunter slots with upgrade points from chary in effect much worse then death cheat?

[worthy knoll]

What do you mean?

[flat sandal]

What's the max amount of slots?

Well if its 50 you get 100 upgrade points being able to get all the traits you need with fresh hunters. Hunter level doesnt matter at all really, just upgrade points if the problem with death cheat is that ppl run with too many. It then also favours veteran players instead of everyone.

[little jackal]

no need for death cheat then huh

convenient

[flat sandal]

100 each time you get two from chary that is so you accumulate them in a full roster probably faster then you go through all 50

There isnt though if you have them all unlocked, right?

It's a massive advantage really

[crystal plume]

I don't see how it's similar or a problem

100 upgrade points divided between 50 hunters

So as the reward says, 2 trait points per recruited hunter

[flat sandal]

No it clearly is though

[crystal plume]

You need to get that reward 5 times before you can even get doctor

[queen jungle]

I think he's trying to say this, some people keep 50 hunters, and they only play 1 of them so charry gives all of these hunters trait points, so at one point every hunter gonna have 50 trait points

I mean I don't think this is common

[crystal plume]

Yeah I have around 20 hunters with over 100 trait points that I haven't used and that's from a long time of accumulating the points

[flat sandal]

I can sometimes get a couple of traits and i have only 7 or so

Yeah see, so you can run a fresh hunter with plenty traits

[crystal plume]

The difference is that death cheat enabled basically everyone to have all good traits at all times, with what you're describing the average or below average players would still lose those hunters until they would have to get lucky with the trait point reward multiple times again to build up their stock 😄

So it's nowhere near as forgiving

[queen jungle]

I mean that's still not equal to cheat death tho, like first it requires hunter slots, then it requires you to have many hunters it's free if you get free hunters and not free if you get legendary hunters

[flat sandal]

Yup, so it favours some but not all

So it is equal or at least a similar problem just not for everyone

[queen jungle]

And yeah if a player got 50 hunters with many trait points, that means that person gonna be able to play 50 hunters full trait

[flat sandal]

Yes

You can always accumulate while you go through them. I mean it's 100 points a pop, thats the bottom line

[queen jungle]

It is interesting to think about

[little jackal]

okay, idk why, but I threw together an algo that calculates the resulting state of your roster from the number of hunter losses per day and the chance of getting +2 trait points

with 4 losses per day and 25% chance on the distance of 100,000 days you can always expect to play a hunter with 26 points on average

chain fanning chads rejoice

although the chance is probably lower, and the chain fanning chad lose rate is higher

[flat sandal]

Nice, 25% per chary drop or day?

Feels like 50%per day but no idea

[little jackal]

for each drop, 4 tries per day

[flat sandal]

Yeah probs less the 25%

[little jackal]

my point is even with conditions this favorable you will not have full trait hunters as it was with death cheat

[flat sandal]

You get everything you need though. It is, for sure, the single biggest advantage you can have in hunt. Hands down.

Cain is a joke compared to this 😄

It also scales with success and success scales with it

Would remove. Change my mind^^

[little jackal]

I'd remove it too

[past barn]

"The Bounty Bash will start at 4pm CET" at least Crytek could add a "sorry, delayed" screen
now waiting 30 minutes like an idiot - as we got unlimited time ...
disrespectful

[worthy knoll]

Its the best reward since its almost Always useful. Even of it was nerfed by rasing some trait prices needlesly.

Lets ne honest, who rejoices for 3 free Chaos bombs? Those are Sold immediatly.

[chrome oyster]

@chilly pond the major issue with going full free to play is cheaters can get the game for free (so bans don't really mean anything). At least with it costing a few bucks, there's a deterrent.

[remote night]

Are there any streamer-assets for the drops as the last times?? And if yes: Where do i find them?

[unborn sandal]

@random quartz if you bide your time and know what you’re doing campers are very predictable and can be beaten

[little carbon]

@elfin rapids there arent any more voices because that would make the soundscape less clear.

[polar vigil]

May I ask why is this a bad idea or can i get people's thoughts on it https://discordapp.com/channels/350201607788429323/524577494863708180/1077700673325518888

[elfin rapids]

nah itd make it even more clear if you knew which hunters had which voices

[little carbon]

Not really. Currently you can differentiate quite well between death / hurt and melee sounds even with heavy sound pollution at range. Too many different voices would create too much similarity.

Thats why they actually removed variation from Hunter voices a while back

[rose drum]

did they cancel their plans to change the bloodbond cost for respecing?

[late wind]

@delicate sandabcat#5270 that martini cut down idea is cool. But literally nobody would run that as the sparks pistol and uppercut would outclass it by a mile as they are now.

[burnt mulch]

I mean, there doesnt seem to be much of a point. you can already just stab someone in the back.

feels like a waste of dev time for something that will realistically happen very rarely

[frosty garnet]

@fleet gull, your post below has been deleted, as it doesn't follow the required format.
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[reef linden]

this is not cod

I think its enough of an argument

but if you want even more: anything will one tap at the head if u are that close to your target, just punch him in the head and thats it

and having an animation to kill someone is dumb, if someone catch you during that time well, good luck on your next cod match after you go back to it

btw

#game-ideas message

I kinda love and hate this at the same time

I just think it needs to be less good

maybe doing 74 damage and using a tool slot

and make it better for AI

[burnt mulch]

that sounds like a pain to develop

[unborn dagger]

@late wind I honestly don't know why people are against you on this one. It doesn't make sense for something like an explosive have a guided throwing arc compared to something like a bow of all things

[burnt mulch]

because a bow doesn't need a throwing arc to actually use effectively in most of its range.

a throwing explosive, at almost every range that it would be used in, necessitates the use of an arc, because it actually follows an arc.

[dense sapphire]

@deep bramble Self Revive
You think most people want it to return? I’m sure some do but I know many who don’t, me included. I personally vehemently oppose self revive as a mechanic, and I would benefit from it as a common solo player.

[hot vigil]

I can see two reasons why I want the indicator to remain:
1: A lot of throwables have different throwing ranges and arcs + pitcher expands that.
2: Hunt can be VERY picky with what holes and cracks you can throw your throwables thru and how precise it needs to be.

[unborn dagger]

That's a fair point then

[unborn sandal]

I think self revive was a fine mechanic. Unless you’re sniping behind cover it’s so easy for the enemy to kill you when you res and then camp/burn for eternity. I tried it about 15 times during the event and there was only one occasion that I survive for more that two seconds after reviving. The only situation I could understand solo res being infuriating is when you’re the last member of your team alive or a solo and can’t have someone stop watching body to get a lantern

Solo res has basically the same effectiveness as necro if they make it 10 or 15 seconds. A body can get up at any time in a chaotic fight and if you aren’t paying attention you’ll get screwed

[dense sapphire]

My issue with self revive is primarily based on game design rather than balance. A core aspect of hunt is that death is really punishing. You are out of the match until you’re revived, and even then you lose health permanently. If you do die die, you lose your loadout and hunter completely. Calling it permadeath isn’t entirely accurate but it’s the closest I got. Compare this to other FPS games. BR games have death that puts you out of the match, but you don’t lose anything extra, and when you’re revived the penalty is minimal. Part of what differentiates Hunt, part of its core design is that element of harsh punishment for death. And then self-revive comes along and gives you a buy back in. If you had necro and grounded while a solo, you can literally revive yourself at not extra cost. Bam, completely circumvent that whole concept that makes Hunt unique. A solo revive probably wouldn’t impact the gameplay that significantly, but it would mark the death of part of what makes Hunt, Hunt.

You feel?

[unborn sandal]

Except that duos and trio have the capability. Why exclude a portion of the community from the feature. It would also require them to have a perk, and duos/trios don’t need a perk to revive a teammate, as well as it being much faster if you’re doing a non necro res

[dense sapphire]

You don’t feel, I see

[unborn dagger]

I mean I can see the point in not wanting it and especially when that self revive would be a must have trait that you would be stupid not to buy it. There'd need to be some heavy consequences that come with it

[burnt mulch]

I mean he has a point. duos and trios can revive, why not solos

[unborn sandal]

As I said earlier I never had much success with it. The only two situations in which it can reliably be pulled off are from extreme range and in large and fast paced fights where the person that killed you might immediately die

[burnt mulch]

it doesn't have to return in exactly the same way, but it's probably fine to come back in some form.

[unborn dagger]

Of course not but it needs to have some pretty big negatives to it and a timer of course

[burnt mulch]

eh. having it cost necromancer is fine. you don't have teammates that can clear your body for you.

the issue I have with it is mainly that you can revive once when you're fully burnt out, and with resilience that basically means you never lose your hunter if you just go make a sandwich.

and the second case of if you're a sniper you're pretty much immortal.

[unborn sandal]

If you’re playing duos your teammate can set up a smokescreen with a dynamite and go for a res, or if you’re in trios one can necro while the other provides cover fire. If you’re solo you’re completely unprotected unless they get third partied. I feel like that and a 15 second timer are negative enough

[unborn dagger]

Yes but there's a balancing issue where something has to be bought otherwise you're just screwing yourself over for no reason

It either needs to be on the hunter or have negatives to it when buying it imo

[burnt mulch]

I don't think it's as strong as you're making it out to be

you're already solo, that's a pretty big negative

the way I see it, self-necro allows for trades to actually benefit a solo, when in nearly every case, a trade is better for the team.

which I think is fine.

[unborn sandal]

The only time someone ever got the drop on me with solo revive was the first time I experienced it. I wasn’t expecting it, just “oh some idiot solo is dead now” and then 30 second later “oh shit is that that solo again”. I dropped him with one martini shot to the body and then burned him. After that if I saw that someone was solo I’d throw a lantern on them while teammate covered body and if they got up blam

You don’t have teammates, you’ve probably got no cover, and you’re down at least 25 health in a long ammo meta. Reviving is death for solos 95% of the time. So throw them a bone and let them have it

[hot vigil]

Ah yes Schrodinger's Solo Necro:
The skill that people will argument is not good or worth it, despite wanting it in the game really badly.

That said, while I don't want solo necro as it was during the event, I think there space for it to exist if it gets revised.

[unborn sandal]

I don’t like using it. I don’t think it’s as strong as people make it out to be. I wouldn’t even use it if they added it back. That doesn’t change the fact that I think it was a good addition to give solos a little something

[hot vigil]

Think the biggest issue is that we have solos to begin with, you can't balance a game for lobbies that needs both accommodate solo and teams.

[unborn sandal]

Just because something isn’t busted and abuseable doesn’t mean that I can’t be a proponent of it

[unborn sandal]

I don’t think solos are an issue. They add variety and keep you on your toes. Find 8 dead bodies on a trios server? Could still be a solo out there. Watching. Waiting. You aren’t safe until that timer reaches zero on the extract

[hot vigil]

Ofc not, just amsuing that usually people who do argues for solo necro always say things like "it ain't busted, you can easily counter it" or "it rarely works" and other stuff like that.

[hot vigil]

Well it is more what can you do to accommodate the solo to have a more "fair" experience, which ends up being that you need to power up the solo. Which in turn means that the solo is playing a different game than the rest of the server.
What solo adds of chaos is different aspect which I personally dislike, but understand if people likes it.

[unborn sandal]

People think it’s super op and busted as if the solo will come back with 200 health and a fucking air strike ready to be called in. They need to take it for what it is. A scared little hunter with no one to cover their back and no more than 125 health after reviving

[hot vigil]

Yeah, agreed, again biggest gripe I have is the time you need to babysit the solo

If you wanna burn them

It is non-gameplay

[unborn sandal]

So is camping a necro and burning

It’s the same exact thing

Takes the same amount of time

[hot vigil]

Nope, there is active play of trying to cover the body without getting domed, you lure out the team mates that have to choke and apply pressure to make them engage.

[unborn sandal]

And if you want gameplay just walk away and give the solo another chance. Maybe they’ll just limp to an extract, battered and weapons looted, or maybe they’ll come back with a vengeance, one bar missing but twice as angry. The mechanic is so versatile but people can only see it in two ways: an annoying waste of time or op as all hell and with barely any in between

[hot vigil]

Well, I know this might be me who is unfun, but I don't see "leaving the enemy to getting the jump on you later" as a good strategy. I will always make sure that my enemies are dead to secure my odds of winning, especially when the game is as punishing as it is for losing.

Again, I don't mind solo necro as a second wind chance.

Just don't want to end in weird waiting games, hunt already have enough of those.

[unborn sandal]

But you’re playing the grass is always greener game. “If I burn them and camp that’s boring”. “If I let them get up I’m giving someone a chance they don’t deserve”

You can’t play both sides of an argument

Or discussion I guess is a better word

[hot vigil]

What?
I am just saying: I don't mind solo necro as solo sometimes can just die to random headshots or trades, so having a second wind mechanic too lessen those pains is fine. But I don't like that comes at the cost for me as a non-solo player who want to win have to sometimes cook solos for minutes. There is balance to be struck, fun is a two way street in multiplayer games.

Solo necro can exist in a way that doesn't warps the meta around it, which I would argue it does when people says "just bring traps bro" or that optimal play against it is to do very specific game actions.

[unborn sandal]

Without infernal pact it will never be more than a minute and probably less because they will revive and get 25-50 off instantly

[burnt mulch]

I'm still not quite seeing the difference between cooking a solo and cooking a duo.

"luring out the teammates that have to choke and pressure" has the same time limit of pressuring the solo to revive.

[hot vigil]

Difference is that it is active gameplay aka fighting another player vs. inactive gameplay, just pointing your gun at body.

[unborn sandal]

I think that so much is stacked in your favor when playing against a solo that you don’t have to change the way you play
1.They have no one to cover their revive
2.Their sense of how much you’re paying attention to the body is only based on some garbled sound
3.They only have about a minute or two to act before you inevitably burn them
4.If the do get a revive off they are one shot to 75% of guns the playerbase currently mains
I could go on but it would be pointless

[granite crystal]

The only annoying thing about solo revive is that you never know if they are still there or not. If it's a duo or trio, you expect them to be still there, and once you kill their mates, you can move on. Against solos, you've got to find a trap, a lantern, etc, it's annoying.

[unborn sandal]

Unless you find a lantern for trios they can sit there indefinitely. There’s nothing forcing them to act except fear of their teammate burning out, same exact thing as with a solo

[burnt mulch]

I mean you have to find a lantern vs a team if you haven't killed their mates.

[granite crystal]

If you have a bounty you can tell, against solos you can't

[hot vigil]

I agree, it ain't that the solo is in a strong position, but actually as *** just pointed up. You just HAVE to wait to burn them up, bc they can get up if you leave.
Again, dunno, I just like to play my games instead of doing nothing in them.
Giving solo a window (it could be of 15-30secs) to self revive would levitate a lot of my gripes I have about it.

[burnt mulch]

you can tell what? that a teammate exists?

a thought experiment. I enter a game as a duo and we play like 2 solos. If a team kills my mate and doesnt burn+camp them, I can go run up to them and pick them up.

why is this not problematic but solo revive is?

[unborn sandal]

Unless the solo killed both your teammates one of you can cover the guy that has a three second animation where he’s literally helpless and teammate find a burn

[granite crystal]

If they are within 150 meters or not, against a solo that can potentially revive, you can't. I mean, I'm not against solo revive at all, all I'm saying is that I also understand why it could be somehow annoying. Like let's say there are three teams fighting in a compound, if there is a solo who can revive, there is zero commitment from him. No one needs to come close to him, no dark sight you could hear, etc.

But again, I'm in favour of solo revive

But we should stop acting like every situation is in favour of duos or trios, because there are some situations where I'd rather be solo

[hot vigil]

That is an edgecase and not the common play pattern of most players.
Moreso, IF solo revive exist that would become the norm to burn them too.

[burnt mulch]

so it's not a problem because it's not common?

[hot vigil]

Yes, but as I've said MANY times now, it ain't FUN gameplay looking at a body. EVEN if they try to get up 3 times in a row and I get free kills, it still ain't FUN for me to play.

[unborn sandal]

The situations where it’s better to be solo are so niche and all overarched by the fact that you’ve got no teammates and you’re down a bar

[unborn sandal]

Then explain why burning a duo or trios teammate is so ducking fun

[hot vigil]

Basically yes, if it becomes common it might be a problem, that is how many games are balanced around, if a meta strategy becomes to prevalent and effective.

[hot vigil]

Because it makes the other team mates acts and then we can shoot back and forth and play the game! And when the team mate dies I know NONE of them wont come back so I can just move on.

[granite crystal]

Yeah of course, I agree with you. But as someone who mostly plays trios, when solo revive was there it was a bit boring to always find a lantern or something. I even stopped carrying at some point, if they want to revive, go ahead, I'm going to the boss

[burnt mulch]

a meta strategy is meta because it's strong, and it's common because it's strong. if reviving in this way was strong, wouldn't people be doing it more often?

[hot vigil]

This, I've even lost a couple of bounties bc I had to play babysitter instead of going after it.

[burnt mulch]

like, the commonality of a meta strategy is a consequence of it being strong

not the cause

well look, again, you don't have to play babysitter

but now we're going in circles

[hot vigil]

Agreed, but there is also the possibility that the meta just haven't been discovered yet or just ain't fun for most people to try out and it remains undiscovered.

[burnt mulch]

uh

[unborn sandal]

Yeah I like your point here but the mentality that you need to burn solos if they have necro is so strongly engrained into people that they refuse to do anything but waste however many minutes it takes to find a burn

[burnt mulch]

I think we're working with different definitions of meta but I guess it doesn't matter much

[hot vigil]

yes, but it would be a disadvantage NOT to do it. It would be a risk.
And dunno, this game is punishing enough that being risk adverse is valid.

[hot vigil]

I guess so :)

[granite crystal]

Oh yeah, that is very true. But why do you think they do that tho? Having a guy flanking behind you isn't the greatest feeling either haha, but yeah, there should be a middle ground between giving a free res and waiting 10 minutes

[unborn sandal]

I think the solo debate boils down to the problem that too many players in this game are focused on winning and not having fun

[burnt mulch]

You're taking a second risk by waiting. Wasting time.

[hot vigil]

How?

[burnt mulch]

You said it yourself. Bounty team ran away. They used the time that you spent waiting to escape.

Time is a resource

[hot vigil]

Exactly, as I said, just give solo a limited window to activate the revive, then I know, if the solo doesn't get up after 15 secs, he wasted his window and I can move on.

[hot vigil]

Yes, but dying is worse lose condition than not getting the bounty.
That is also why people don't just throw themselves at the lair or bounty team.

And choosing to let a solo be increases the risk of me getting shot again.

[burnt mulch]

Okay... so you voluntarily chose the option that gave you less of a chance of dying but also less of a chance of getting the bounty. The problem being?...

isn't that risk vs reward?

[unborn sandal]

But now you’re forcing solos to evolve to your style of gameplay. Earlier you said that you didn’t want to be forced to counter their gameplay. The only way this would work is sniping. Why are you more deserving than the solos?

[hot vigil]

Sure, but not all risk vs. rewards mechanics are created equal and dunno, being third partied is usually not that great of an experience.

[granite crystal]

What if they don't take solo revive back, but solos can keep their Hunter for one more game?

[unborn sandal]

No

We don’t need death cheat 2 electric boogaloo

It was fun and the traits were interesting but it’s not in the spirit of hunt

[burnt mulch]

death cheat hard limited to 1 per hunter would work, but I'm not sure if I see the point.

like, what's the point of doing so

[hot vigil]

Because I would argue that Hunt primarily a team game, with SO many system balanced around team play.
Which returns to one of my earliest points of "balancing a game around solo and team play is an impossible task".

[granite crystal]

I'm scared the pace of the game would be even more slow, or too many solos per game

[burnt mulch]

wait you're scared of people playing too slowly with death cheat, or with self-rez? I'm confused.

[worthy knoll]

Are you so Sure? Because I dont do that, but my teammates usually want to Go for the Bounty and PvP No Matter what.
Which I think is stupid when we e.g. are down to 50 HP

[granite crystal]

With self revive, that trios would be even slower than what they are now because they would camp bodies

[unborn sandal]

Going back to my earlier point why is the only metric of fun for 90% of the the playerbase surviving. Why can’t you enjoy fighting or interacting with other players

[granite crystal]

To be honest, solo isn't even in the spirit of Hunt either, it's there because it has to, but we can see all the problems that come with it for solo players

[hot vigil]

That is fair point that -some- people don't, but it wouldn't say that is the norm of most players.
I too sometimes play aggressive matches.

[burnt mulch]

what?

how tf is solo not "in the spirit of Hunt"?

[granite crystal]

IDK, two bounties per boss, as a solo you must let one bounty behind you. That's next level game design

[hot vigil]

I can, that is why I don't like when solo revive is in a state that minimize my time to interact with other players and just stare at a body.
And sure you can say "walk away" again, but I will still point out again that is too big of risk to do so.

[burnt mulch]

..and you get the equivalent of like 3 bounties when you do extract. I mean you could just say "haha a solo gets to pick up 2 bounties" but what's the point of doing so?

just for denying the second bounty token to another team?

[unborn sandal]

As I said earlier solo adds positive things to both the teams they’re against and themselves
They aren’t forced to play with randoms they don’t want to deal with
It allows for a more challenging hardcore experience without a completely different game mode
It lets the matchmaking system to fill games with mixes of duos and trios fully
It keeps players on edge until they find every body accounted for in the match

[worthy knoll]

Tbh, IT might Just be the people i know but all of them usually have to be convinced by me.
And If they agree its usually grundigly. They even try to Rez when I Tell Them to Just leave and Safe theor Hunter, citing "honour"...
And from my experience what chatters in streams say etc. Most people tend to never Cut their losses even If it is the intended gameplay of Hunt.

[granite crystal]

The game was designed to be played as a team, trio works because it's 2+1, but solo introduced lots of incoherence for solo players.
As a trio you get both bounties, you deny them. As a solo if you run away, someone can pick the other bounty, it makes no sense

[burnt mulch]

how tf does trio work because it's 2+1

[granite crystal]

It works because you get everything that was designed as a duo, you just have one more player. As a solo you can't get the full reward so to speak

[hot vigil]

Yeah, I currently play in group where they really don't like cutting their losses and I have to plea them to extract bc I've lost a big health pip and now die to about anything in 1 tap :b

[burnt mulch]

.. you do though, because there's a solo bonus.

the only thing you don't do is deny the other bounty.

[unborn sandal]

Solo players basically create free money and xp

[burnt mulch]

if they reduced/removed the solo bonus and allowed the other bounty to be picked up, does that really make solos "more in the spirit" of hunt?

[granite crystal]

I'm not saying that I have a solution, but it is clear that solo makes no sense based on how the game was designed.

Even trio barely makes sense

[burnt mulch]

as far as I understand by your logic, neither of them make sense

[hot vigil]

I think my dream solution would just make a "Only full teams" lobbies option.
Then people who wanna play with solos can and people who don't want to can be in peace too.

[burnt mulch]

yeaaah that would just create full solo lobbies

[hot vigil]

Well, is that an issue?

[little carbon]

Solos already have enough. They get matched against vastly worse opponents. And the reward bonus for a solo is massive enough that extracting with 1 small bounty as a solo is worth more than extracting with the gauntlet as a team.

[hot vigil]

If solo is fine, then it shouldn't

[burnt mulch]

well it was, when they introduced solo only lobbies, because the game got too slow.

[granite crystal]

Well, duo does because everything in the game was designed to be played as a duo. People prefer trio, I'm one of them, but the game has barely evolved and everything meant to be duos vs duos

[unborn sandal]

But the host of problems that not allowing solo players to exist in this game would create far outweigh your discomfort

[burnt mulch]

too many teams on the map created a dynamic where third partying or waiting until you're the last team was by far the optimal play

[hot vigil]

Well, almost like the game inherently just ain't balanced and designed around solo play :b