feedback-discussion

[burnt mulch]

dualies is literally balanced around luck. you can't have a weapon that's good for low skill players and zero rng/rewards skill, because that would make it too good for skilled players

[unborn dagger]

I'm not a fan of RNG when it comes to fire fights. It's just cheap really.

[queen jungle]

Then it should be reworked to satisfy the demand of rewarding skill but not hitting the RNG ceiling of being 80%+ luck

[rigid basalt]

no rng is the best way cause skill is way better and anyone could learn it and rng there is nothing u can do to get fully rid of it

[unborn dagger]

So skill is a good thing cause you get rewarded for being a good shot

[rigid basalt]

and also it can be learned and influenced while rng cant be controlled and the argument with bad players beeing at a disatvange is nonsense because thats what reality is if someone learns a skill that someone else doesnt have thats just fair that a learned skill is an advantage

[burnt mulch]

ok.

then use a rifle

[burnt mulch]

look, what exactly is wrong with it being mostly luck over "aim"? the skill expression is in pacing shots, taking slow shots, or double firing, and staying in its effective range.
If I have a 30% chance of hitting with my aim (measured over many shots), and you have a gun that says "this has a 30% chance to hit", what's the real difference?

[daring isle]

The real difference is, if you can land shots with iron sights consistently, there would be absolutely zero reason to take duelies because you wouldn't want to rely on luck.

[burnt mulch]

is that not the case?

[daring isle]

I don't understand, can you rephrase please

[burnt mulch]

if you can consistently land your shots, then you wouldn't take dualies in the first place. if you can't, then you have the option of bringing dualies. so it's filling its purpose of being a good way to get new players in.

what's wrong with dualies?

[daring isle]

Yes agree with that point.

The bit that is wrong as a player is being dropped by RNG not skill.

[burnt mulch]

and like I said, If I have a 30% chance of hitting with my aim (measured over many shots), and you have a gun that says "this has a 30% chance to hit", what's the real difference?

what's the applied difference between RNG and skill?

[daring isle]

Well if you are using iron sights and only hitting 30% then that is why you are using dulies lol

[burnt mulch]

sure.

but what's the problem?

[daring isle]

I just said they problem

The bit that is wrong as a player is being dropped by RNG not skill.

[burnt mulch]

and I'm asking why that's a problem

you just sidestepped my question

what's the applied difference between RNG and skill?

[rigid basalt]

with skill if the gunbarrel is pointet on the enemy its gonna hit with rng when the gunbarrel is pointet at the enemy its random if it will hit or not

[burnt mulch]

so you're saying that you have 100% accuracy with skill?

no

you can miss

therefore you have a chance to hit

which is functionally the same as RNG

[rigid basalt]

if u shoot at a non moving target with a non moving barrel without bulletdrop its a 100% hit with rng there is under same circumstances only a percentual chance to hit

[burnt mulch]

then skill is better than rng

so what's the problem with dualies?

[rigid basalt]

yes but that has then nothing to do with skill but instead where u aimed

[rigid basalt]

they are rng

as all weapons in hunt

[burnt mulch]

skill has nothing to do with where you aimed?

[rigid basalt]

i used the word skill in this case by the meaning of not havign any randomfactor

[rigid basalt]

if u aim next to the enemy u gonna miss if its skillbased only with rng even if u are no on target with aim there is a slight chance to hit the target

[burnt mulch]

ok

so that's a disadvantage of RNG

but that doesn't answer my question

why is RNG bad

there's no difference between a weapon that you have pinpoint accuracy with, but can't hit with all the time, vs a weapon that you roll a dice to hit with.

you're arguing semantics over "what is skill" now.

[rigid basalt]

because it is random and there is nothing u can do to controll it past a certant degree
if there is only skillbase u will hit if u aim right with rng if u aim right there is still a chance of a miss which can not be controlled and this is is why rng is bad

[burnt mulch]

so what you're saying is that RNG performs worse than skill?

because that's not what I was asking.

[rigid basalt]

u asked why rng is bad and my answer is because u have no controll over it

[burnt mulch]

then you're completely misunderstanding my question.

[rigid basalt]

what are u asking then

[burnt mulch]

The bit that is wrong as a player is being dropped by RNG not skill.
I am asking what is wrong about a player being dropped by RNG? What is wrong with having RNG? What is bad about having RNG in a game?

why does the RNG need to be removed?

what is wrong with dualies?

[queen jungle]

@fast wing The devs have rejected weather such as rain in the past since the noise would mess with the sound perception too much

[queen jungle]

Not fun to fight, not fun to play, frustrating all around

[burnt mulch]

that's subjective. I could say the same about long ammo sniping.

[fast wing]

@queen jungle it would just be different. More sloshing. And ambient weather noise

[queen jungle]

I think long ammo sniping is frustrating to fight as well

[burnt mulch]

the point is that I could say the same about anything I dislike, long ammo sniping was just an example.

just because you don't like it personally doesn't necessarily mean that there's something inherently wrong with it.

[frosty garnet]

@iron bloom, your post below has been deleted, as it doesn't follow the required format.
You can find all guidelines pinned in the ideas channel.

Please feel free to re-post your idea using the correct format:
Matched regex in message in #game-ideas (#suggestions-ideas, 524577494863708180):

Allow random third party invite when two of your friends are online. Please!```

[daring isle]

As you get better at the game, you will very much dislike people getting lucky in a RNG way at your expense.

[burnt mulch]

how do you know that the guy that headshot you wasn’t just bad and shot you with a low chance of success?

[daring isle]

Bro, you just destroyed yourself, "with a low chance of success" and killed me. Someone with skill would be putting their iron sight, or scope on my head, possibly leading for velocity and landing a skill shot. big difference

[burnt mulch]

so theyre nerfing themselves by using dualies?

[daring isle]

I know you are trying to provide a clever argument but you are failing.

[burnt mulch]

whats wrong with it?

yknow what nah

believe what you want you’re getting weirdly personal about this

[frozen swift]

if youre mad at the very rare headshot that happens when people use dualies at a distance at that point youre just kinda taking the game too seriously

not only do they have to waste ammo for a random luckshot but it barely ever happens and the one or two times it does you can kinda just shrug off i feel

there's a reason stuff like the bomb lance is in the game - the game is not meant to be sweated over like csgo

[daring isle]

I agree Ashley, it is looking at things from a competitive point of view which is indeed a personal outlook on things.

[burnt mulch]

I mean yeah i agree but that’s kind of beside the point. CSGO has stuff like the shotguns that nobody uses competitively, hunt just gets a little wacky about it.
but dualies are in the same boat as shotties are in cs go. nobody would pick it from a competitive standpoint.

[daring isle]

I bet you play a bit like a potato 😉

[burnt mulch]

see this is what I’m talking about dude. resorting to personal attacks when you run out of things to say.

[daring isle]

Nah, you just can't see any point of view but your own. There is plenty of sayings around arguing with potatoes

[burnt mulch]

you haven’t actually responded to my statements.

the same could be said about yourself.

[daring isle]

I should have known potatoes don't have eyes

[tawny meadow]

I would say that this discussion has become a bit stale.

[burnt mulch]

yeah you know what you’re right.

[daring isle]

Yes because someone doesn't understand lol

[tawny meadow]

Move on.

Thanks

[daring isle]

Why does that player have a 30% chance to hit, a good player should hit well over 50%

[burnt mulch]

i take it back. no point discussing with someone thats just insulting me.

[daring isle]

Don't play the victim, you are just arguing for the sake of arguing, I acknowledged your points on being good for new players

[burnt mulch]

im not playing shit lol

[daring isle]

And here we go around the merry go round lmao

[burnt mulch]

nah I’m not gonna get baited into explaining and defending why i feel like you’re attacking me lmfao

im out

[daring isle]

Cya bud, keep on spamming your way to victory, 30% of the time, every time 🙂

[worthy knoll]

@fast wing weather effect will probably never come since it will most likely break the engine

[fast wing]

Why is the engine so bad @worthy knoll

[charred pine]

A bit shame, but I do agree the sound is very important in Hunt. Maybe short bursts during a lightning storm but constant would be really annoying

[rigid basalt]

cause in a competitive game there is no place for randomnes fustration and stupid logic

[worthy knoll]

Don't know, just what I've heard being said. Look the at the post quote below me

[daring isle]

100%

[soft tendon]

@rigid basalt Hunt isn't a competitive game

So RNG can stay

[charred pine]

Even CSGO has random deviations on its spray "patterns" for weapons and that game actually is competitive with hardcore tournaments

[crystal plume]

Players fighting other players is pretty competitive in general I'd say

[charred pine]

Well yes, but most people mean games like CSGO, Tekken, Hearthstone when talking about competitive

But lets say Hunt is, RNG is still a-okay

Hunt is kinda little like CSGO but bombsites are random

You know thinking about it, unlike CSGO and Siege, I've never felt like I've hit a wall in Hunt, no matter the MMR, I never worry about losing ranks or tilt

[frozen swift]

i only really tilt when its absolutely not my fault, but the game's

like if i rubberband and die or reloadglitch and die

or if i get flashbombed seeing as there is 0 counterplay

otherwise if i just get like headshot on

whatever the guy is having a good day yknow

sucks for me but imagine the joy the satisfying headshot brought that guy

[charred pine]

Whenever I get absolutely outplayed, I can't but feel proud for the guy

[somber harbor]

the issue is that it isn't rng, the spread appears at the centre of the crosshairs

[modest oracle]

Is 4 player team mode still a idea for implementation?

[charred pine]

Im not sure what you mean, even if the crosshair is or isnt one to one to the deviation, its still RNG

[somber harbor]

It does not have deviation at all. Only dragons breath has some degree of it which is a single fly away pellet https://youtu.be/4qjbl9vFS7g

[charred pine]

So the crosshair isnt accurate? I was talking about the spread, not crosshairs. But yeah the crosshairs could use some work

[somber harbor]

The crosshair is the main part of the spread argument rn

They don't represent the possibilities of where your shots can go and crytek have stated they can go anywhere within the crosshair, which they don't, they always go towards the centre of it

[whole grotto]

I want a long pax

The 7.5” SAA is a real thing, and the pax is loosely based off of the SAA

[native lodge]

although the video does a good job explaining how it works, I dislike how it says the reticle is lying

as its not

the reticle is a range finder and helps you center shots, in other words it assists aim. and with only a few moments of practice someone could figure that out

[charred pine]

Could the reticle tell you more about the damage drop off range than just spread? Hunt ranges are pretty short for shotgun pellets

[native lodge]

thing is it does

the size of the recital is a good indicator of how much range you have

basically if you land it square on the chest and the hunter doesn't fill up the majority of the reticle, good chance you are out of range

[somber harbor]

yeah that's a point but at the same time, this isn't communicated in the game, all you do is see that shotgun hip fire has a static reticle, leading the player to believe that the shot could go anywhere within that

if that was the intention, which I doubt, it should be communicated in the game itself

it's like how shredder increases the one shot range of the nitro but isn't stated anywhere within the game

that info should be within it

[charred pine]

Yeah that really should be in, I always thought it was the other way around 😅

[somber harbor]

yeah it should decrease the range if anything bc of the bleed lol

[charred pine]

I can forgive Nitro being the snowflake in this case

[native lodge]

thing is I tested shotguns very earlier on when learning to play hunt and figure out this was a thing already. I know other games do it differently but I never assume one thing works the same from game to game. I really don't think a game has to put in words how every detail of a gun works. even more so when thats something is something you can figure out by just practicing with the weapon. as for nitro yeah I agree it should display the damage values at the very least correctly

[whole grotto]

@frozen swift why nay?

[somber harbor]

long pax would be killer

pax needs more love

[whole grotto]

Yep!

[somber harbor]

long pax + carbine

[whole grotto]

If it happens I will sing big iron for every game for the first week it is out

[somber harbor]

it'd straight up become my main

[frozen swift]

well first of all weird to ask me specifically why that gives off a weird vibe dude ngl

but second of all i say nay because i think the pax is fine where it is and would benefit more from a precision variant

especially seeing the scotfield getting a variant with a firerate boost

[nimble spire]

I see people asking for snowy maps, do people not realize the biome that Louisiana is? Just makes me laugh tbh

[frozen swift]

snowy maps would be a nice addition for a sequel but definitely not for 1

[somber harbor]

make it not louisiana

[frozen swift]

in a sequel it could be a little ahead of time and have spread

[somber harbor]

louisiana is nowhere near as hilly as desalle is

[whole grotto]

You are the only nay and the first time I posted mostly similar only had 2 nays

[somber harbor]

but they still added desalle

[normal horizon]

Louie siana

[nimble spire]

Some parts actually are, it's a rare bit of landscape but it's there

[frozen swift]

yea its like how most of the netherlands is flat but not the south-east

[charred pine]

I never remember how to spell it 😭 english is dumb

[nimble spire]

I'm all for a snow map actually, I'd love to see the story break out I to a new area and progress the story more. But something tells me that snow would break the engine rendering it, not to mention snow storms and how it moves and reacts.

[frozen swift]

Yea. A hunt showdown 2'd be required for something like that for sure.

[somber harbor]

yeah but one of the shops in desalle mention being in new orleans

which isn't hilly at all

also just the general area around desalle is straight up mountainous

[nimble spire]

No, it's hill but far from mountains

[normal horizon]

Spelling is hard don't worry about it

It's why we invented auto correct

[nimble spire]

And seeing as Crysis is in the works for development, I thibk it'll be a long while for HSD2.... I have a feeling they are going the Destiny route, core game just add to it, which isn't a bad way to go

[frozen swift]

I'm not even sure if we'll ever get one, sadly.

We should, mind. One that runs better and is built from the ground up in a new engine. But I wouldnt be surprised if hunt showdown stays a one-off.

[nimble spire]

Yee

[somber harbor]

idk man with the state the game is in rn I'd say building it from the ground up would be better

ik it'd be pretty sacrilegious for crytek but maybe on an engine that isn't cryengine

[whole grotto]

@frozen swift agreed

Part of the reason I want long pax

Medium ammo pistol with long ammo levels of BV

[frozen swift]

I think long pax is more of a band-aid on the underlying problem

[whole grotto]

I agree mostly, but I still want the pax to get some love

[frozen swift]

agreed

i want pax claw to get full knife damage

[whole grotto]

Same

[frozen swift]

its insane it doesnt have it yet

[whole grotto]

Asinine

[somber harbor]

what I don't get is why the nagant p has full regular gun melee damage but most other 2 slot gun variants don't

[frozen swift]

@somber harbor if it pistol made 2 slot, it get full

if it rifle made 2 slot, it doesnt

so nagant p, dolch precision, bornheim match, etc

they all get full melee

[charred pine]

That's why i always overdo it so people don't realize I can't spell it, like assasasasassin

[frozen swift]

now assassin is an easy word though

its just ass 2x

[charred pine]

Counter point; not to me 😔

[frozen swift]

it oki

we all have trouble with different things

[whole grotto]

@brittle nova free grand slam

[brittle nova]

true but still boring

if its going to be just us in the server it might as well tell us so we dont waste time

for example avoiding sound traps

[somber harbor]

@short silo removing the avto would provide legal issues because of the legendary skins people bought

[frozen swift]

wrong

no legal issues with removing guns

when buying skins you get a license that can be revoked at any time, essentially

if crytek decided ''fuck you userbase'' they could just delete hunt from everyone's steam accounts with 0 repercussions

such is the nature of digital licenses

you don't actually own any games on steam, you own licenses that belong to the copyright holder and are revokeable for any reason at any time

[subtle elbow]

It would provide legal issues in Germany

They have said as much on stream

[frozen swift]

I mean, possibly if they have a specific law against something like that

though i am unaware of any such law

[somber harbor]

yeah iirc germany put in a bunch of laws regarding microtransactions nd stuff too

[frozen swift]

I'm checking real quick, one second

[unborn smelt]

Germany has many weird rules or restrictions for games

I don't know if we have one regarding that, but i wouldn't be surprised

[frozen swift]

https://www.taylorwessing.com/en/insights-and-events/insights/2022/05/new-consumer-laws-in-germany

Can confirm, you do actually have such a law

this would easily be remedied by refunding the skins but you are correct about this

[subtle elbow]

Yeah, so it becomes far more trouble than it’s worth

[frozen swift]

@soft river I think being able to look away, considering the noise they make, would be far too strong. Instead something like a fuse time increase would be much more realistic, as it would allow for counterplay without making flashbombs useless.

[soft river]

they'd still have a use

you just have to be smarter

instead of just throw and run at them with some shotgun or spam

[frozen swift]

If you hear a flash bomb fuse light, surely you'd simply turn around?

[somber harbor]

ngl I've come to grow more fond of the make avto special ammo argument, not bc of playing against it but bc rachta recommended give it special ammo and an extra avto worth of ammo lol

which is a lot more thought than people going "just make it special ammo"

[soft river]

again another 15 shots is 5 more bursts

thats a lot

and ammo boxes, another 2 bursts and an extra single shot

[frozen swift]

The issue is, limiting avto ammo is a bad solution when you can simply take ammo boxes with you

[unborn smelt]

I dunno flashbombs are good - no question, but there's a lot of counterplay you can do, before you get flashed and while you are flashed

[somber harbor]

while flashed, move wacky

[soft river]

special ammo boxes is 1 more brust and a single shot

[frozen swift]

What counterplay exactly do I do against someone throwing one out in duos when me and my teammate arent directly covering each other at all times

[unborn smelt]

If they had a fuze they'd propably just end up being shitty frags

[somber harbor]

use the compass and your knowledge of the area to counter it, or just continue going towards them with your knife out using that ol echolocation

[frozen swift]

''if flashed run at noises with knife'' is not counterplay, its suicide

[somber harbor]

echolocation my g

[frozen swift]

I think theyre more fine in trios, dont get me wrong - you usually have a better chance of a teammate taking the pressure off and making a push a worse idea for the enemy

but in duos there is no real counterplay except for having half your team watching your back in case a flash happens

[unborn smelt]

Well before the throw it starts with identifying when they push suspiciously agressively to throw the flash, if you failed at that you have a short time to break LOS before the flash hits and avoid being blinded or you can runb straight at them so they have to blind themselves with you effectively nullifying the advantage they'd get.

[frozen swift]

If they throw it out of the window of a compound? if there's no cover around? if they're within 5m?

[unborn smelt]

Once you've been hit you can utilize you compass and/or general map knowlege to walk as far away from the enemy as possible, try to move as unpredictable as possible on top.

[unborn smelt]

then you fucked up to beginn with... make sure you got cover nearby when moving - and if they are within 5m they are flashed too

[somber harbor]

flash haters wouldn't last a day in a dead by daylight lobby fr

[frozen swift]

Cover in front does not protect me from a flash bomb, but it does from any other situation

[charred pine]

Imagine flash haters seeing the sun outside (impossible mode)

[somber harbor]

it protects you from the subsequent shots

sinple really

[frozen swift]

Not if they run out in the 7s

[somber harbor]

the biggest issue with the flashes is the obnoxious white flash

[frozen swift]

if the cover is small I am now forced to run away and get shot in the back irregardless

[unborn smelt]

I mean if they need to run out that's 3-4 sec already over

and 3-4 sec you could still do smth

[somber harbor]

that is where moving wacky comes into play

[frozen swift]

Having to move like an insane person is a band-aid solution to the bigger problem of being unable to counterplay being flashed in the first place.

[unborn smelt]

be that manouver as best as your mapknowlege lets you, put in meds, start the fuze on an explosive, etc

[frozen swift]

If it was more than a second of time to react, I would 100% agree with you dav

[unborn smelt]

It is usually

they are thrown with a really slow velocity and they announce the throw with a pretty long animation and very distict loud noise

[frozen swift]

Is it? I usually get flashed in reasonably close quarters

The animation is short, and the noise only starts when the fuse starts, aka when it is already being thrown

[unborn smelt]

The animation isn't overly long - but i'm very sure it gets you ~1 sec min to react

[frozen swift]

Frag bomb? I get 4 seconds from the start of the fuse to find cover or get murdered trying to find cover, theyre a great tool for flushing someone out

[unborn smelt]

which still feels like no time if you're on the receiving end

[frozen swift]

Flash bomb? I get fucked within a second as I can't even move out of its range before it lands, and I'm left hoping they can't throw it behind my cover.

[unborn smelt]

But it for me is enough to avoid almost all flashes unless i stupidly overextend

[unborn smelt]

Frag - you're straight up dead if it hits... flash you still have a lot of options to save you

[frozen swift]

Frag bleeds more often than it kills for me

[unborn smelt]

depending on their weapons, if they run at you with melee for example running away is all you need to do while flashed, teammates can help you, or you can if lucky / really good even kill the guy while fully blinded

[frozen swift]

The last time I was killed by a frag was like 50 games ago

The thing is, it's not melee users that scare me when flashed

it's the people with a pistol, winfield or shotgun who simply need to hit me once or twice

[charred pine]

Last time I was flashed was like 50 games ago

[frozen swift]

What mmr do you play at volkot

[charred pine]

Doesnt tell much about frags or flashes

4-5

[unborn smelt]

I mean both are very popular for obvious reasons

[charred pine]

Unless you record your games, I dont believe your 50 games avtually are 50 games

[unborn smelt]

frags are - well... lethal. They are essentially tied for most lethal throwable and furthest throwrange

[frozen swift]

I genuinely havent been killed by an explosion in ages. Like, seriously. I usually just run away. I have been killed by the threat of explosions, but not the explosion itself

[unborn smelt]

while flashes allow memes and breaking stalemates to push

[frozen swift]

Don't get me wrong - I think flash bombs should definitely be a part of hunt, and I feel they should be a great tool for say, a shotgunner to push out and secure a kill

[unborn smelt]

So propably a playstyle diffrence mostly... For me it's the opposite with frags

[frozen swift]

I do not think there should be almost 0 counterplay, where you are mainly praying for cover behind you or for your teammate to save you.

Or for their aim to suck.

That last one especially DOES NOT work in 6*

[unborn smelt]

i very rarely die to flashes (Usually i die to the bug where my flash shows a hitmarker but fails to actually flash)

[unborn smelt]

There is a lot of counterplay

[frozen swift]

I'm recording a clip to show you what I mean. One second.

[unborn smelt]

I literally gave you a step by step instruction with 3 possibilities for both pre and post flash scenarios

[frozen swift]

I dont think those are at all valid (in duos)

which is why i am recording the video

that wasnt the point of it

[unborn smelt]

I mean flashes are undeniably one of the best consumable

[soft river]

i have basically only killed with frag arrows in terms of explosives

[somber harbor]

Standard procedure when met with a firing squad and no nearby cover. Standard procedure in fps games in general

The more wacky you move the harder you are to hit

[unborn smelt]

the big diffrence to explosives is it's easier to hit, but it doesn't straight up kill

while explosives are harder to hit wit but absolutely devastating if they hit - with frags at the top because in PvP they are tied for both easiest to hit and most lethal when hitting

[frozen swift]

I get that and I am not saying you shouldnt do so

I am saying it isnt a fix for the problem as a whole

[soft river]

though in real life it is harder to hit something in the first place

[unborn smelt]

But in reallive it's also exponentially harder to just bounce around as randomly as possible in an attempt to not get hit

[soft river]

yes

but i was more responding to dav

[frozen swift]

okay so i am currently looking at my clip

[soft river]

assuming he was talking about real life in the first part of that message

[frozen swift]

for a non-point blank distance, from the very millisecond the fuse is triggered to the bomb landing is about 2 seconds

[unborn smelt]

For a throw that only flashes the enemy or also yourself (so more or less than 7m)

[frozen swift]

more

this is the throw

[unborn smelt]

But then again we before were arguing about at least 1 sec reaction time - and that's already 2 sec reaction time

[frozen swift]

yes

hold up

i understand that

[unborn smelt]

• they at least need another 2 propably more like 3-4 sec to move to a position that allows them to shoot you in that cover

[frozen swift]

now what i am saying is - let's say you're a player and you're right over here, right

and the person throwing this flash runs out of cover to come shoot you

[unborn smelt]

yes ?

[frozen swift]

it takes... 3, maybe 4 seconds

[somber harbor]

Nah I was meaning in hunt

[frozen swift]

during which you are still flashed

[unborn smelt]

So from the second i hear the fuze, i have 2 sec to move before the flash hits

[frozen swift]

lets say you are running away with perfect navigation using the compass from the second you hear the fuse

[unborn smelt]

and another 2-3 sec before they will be able to reach me and shoot me

[frozen swift]

you have about 1.8 seconds to react, not 2

keep in mind human reaction time

[unborn smelt]

So what i'd try to do is run to the right of the wooden board stacks and around the corner attampting to break LoS to where i guess the flash will land

[frozen swift]

yes

now the issue is

[unborn smelt]

then either of 2 things happens, i made it and the flash is wasted or i'm in cover but flashed for 7 sec

[frozen swift]

their teammate goes out the window closer to you, where you also had cover from.

what do you do now

except die horribly

a pincer move is not hard to pull off with a flash bomb is what i'm saying

[unborn smelt]

If i get flashed i'd try to meneuver under the walkway they are currently in towards the other side and then weave back into the small tunnel with the supply room in it

this would give me the longest time in cover assuming the guy jusmps out the window to follow up the flash hitmarker

[unborn smelt]

Where's your teammate ?

If we assume teammates with best positioning for the enemy we need to do so for you too

[frozen swift]

in this position, probably a little behind me and watching the windows

[unborn smelt]

so ideally your teammate tags the guy throwing when they throw

[frozen swift]

yea, very possible

this doesnt stop the teammate of the guy throwing shotgunning me to death

[unborn smelt]

and then covers you when the other mate decides to push despite an injured mate

[frozen swift]

good luck hitting enough shots in a 7 second timeframe to save my life when the enemy can also use the wood as cover

[unborn smelt]

you can use cover too tho ?

[frozen swift]

the flashee or the teammate

[unborn smelt]

good luck pushing the flashed guy in cover while needing to avoid all his mates shots

[unborn smelt]

the flashed one

[somber harbor]

If the enemy can use wood as cover so can you

If they're pushing into close range

[frozen swift]

lets say im flashed

where do i run from here when entirely blind

[unborn smelt]

That's the core point to flashes - they check how good and fast decisions you make in CQC

[frozen swift]

below the stairs? oof, shot from the flasher

[burnt mulch]

if you’re flashed there you were poorly positioned.

thats a shit place to be flashed or not

[unborn smelt]

straight forward into the hallway - cover on 3 sides - then try to weave into the small tunnel on the right with the permanent supplypoint

which would break LoS if they try to pursue you

[frozen swift]

small tunnel is far away from there and there are poles on the right that would block you from just hugging the wall

[unborn smelt]

alternatively depending on your mates position, turn 180° and run, turning right after a while hopefully getting under the bridge to the left of your mate

this would mean to shoot you the enemy would need to peek areas your teammate can actively cover

[burnt mulch]

“if im flashed with no cover where do i find cover hmm?” is not the gotcha you think it is..

[frozen swift]

the thing is, it's solid cover from multiple sides

frag? the thrower can't shoot at you

only their 1 teammate can, and theyre unlikely to 1-tap you

[unborn smelt]

I'm not saying it's exceptionally easy to navigate while blind

it's a skillcheck for mapknowlege if you will

[frozen swift]

flash is the only thing that makes it bad cover in any way

and a LOT of other cover spots get fucked in a similar way

[unborn smelt]

if you semi randomly wigggle AD while running forward you'd avoid the beams mostly

and be harder to hit on top

[burnt mulch]

its not solid cover. anyone peeking you has high ground and can retreat from you by literally walking backward.

[unborn smelt]

a frag lobbed there will straight up kill you

[frozen swift]

i have two feet and i can run in the opposite direction while my teammate shoots the teammate trying to shoot me

[burnt mulch]

meanwhile if you get tagged you have nowhere to retreat to either.

[unborn smelt]

because we again assume they have a mate that covers the area preventing or discouraging you from just moving away

[frozen swift]

in trios? shit cover

in duos? shouldnt be

[burnt mulch]

“my teammate can cover me as i run from the frag” so why cant your teammate cover you while you’re flashed?

[frozen swift]

because the flash involves two people shooting me

rather than 1

as the frag thrower can't shoot while cooking and simply throwing it removes any danger of them adjusting their throw for my position

[unborn smelt]

that doesn't mean the teammate can't suppress them

a single player can suppress a duo

[burnt mulch]

and then the frag lands on your head because they listened to your footsteps?..
or are you assuming your teammate shot the frag holder despite you saying that it was only the 1 person shooting that matters?

[frozen swift]

i am saying that a cooked frag can't land on my head because the fuse time is too long and running is a genuine solution

[unborn smelt]

There are fast firing rifles that make it possible, they could use consumables or tools to aid with that too

[frozen swift]

are you suggesting i take fast firing rifles and special tools and consumables simply to counter a flash?

[unborn smelt]

So it is for a flash - and while yes you're far more likely to get hit by the flash you can also still survive it easily

while with a frag on your head that's nearly impossible

[burnt mulch]

how bout imagine this then: I’m on high ground. the enemy throws a flash at me. they still need to climb a ladder or run up stairs to get to me and shoot me, which they can’t in time. meanwhile if they throw a frag I’m either forced out of position or die. wow

[unborn smelt]

No - i'm saying if we start creating very specific scenarios where the thing in question works as intended, we also can create the counter situation where it doesn't

[frozen swift]

how about this practical

not every compound allows for high ground

[burnt mulch]

i can come up with hypotheticals that support flashes being weak the same way you can come up with hypotheticals that flashes are good

[unborn smelt]

A winnie is by far enough to suppress 2 dudes

and can be aided by smth as common as a choke

[frozen swift]

if i'm assaulting hemlock, for example

there is nothing i can do to avoid having the low ground

[burnt mulch]

flashes sacrifice straight damage for a shorter fuse. that’s how they’re balanced. they’re strong for different reasons.

[unborn smelt]

Why can't you ?

[frozen swift]

what am i supposed to do to gain high ground on hemlock except for wait outside the compound for the bounty to move from their position

[burnt mulch]

push in such a way that if the enemy flashes and pushes you they’re forced to expose themself to your teammate or go all in.

[frozen swift]

running the full timer until there's no point in fighting

[unborn smelt]

there's a roof on the bunker, there's the building next to the bunker and there's a large connected roof section to the south

[frozen swift]

none of those are high ground when the other team is in the building and also dangerous for close-range builds

[somber harbor]

So lets say, my quad derringer, is lined perfectly up to your head while you're on top of the roof at raynard's lumber Mill and I shoot and down you. Then your teammate gets you up, and because you don't have resilience you go down again, you'd agree the derringer is op and needs nerfed right?

[unborn smelt]

How are they not high ground...

[frozen swift]

i adjusted my statement

[unborn smelt]

they are the same level as the upper inside floor and high ground over the ground floor

[somber harbor]

I mean if you want actual higj ground there is the roof

[burnt mulch]

if the other team is in the building and you’re on that roof, and they flash you, how do you expect them to be able to push you if you just fall back from the roof lmao

[unborn smelt]

So while you don't get the high ground yourself you can negate their high ground advantage by being up there

[somber harbor]

Just block off the window with a choke

Then they can't push so easily if they flash you

Cause they'll be afflicted with the coof

[frozen swift]

look i get it, you can get to at least even ground and nullify their flash, but if you're running a close-range build - ie a shotgun- these places are entirely useless, and they also dont allow you to push

they only allow you to stay outside of the compound until timer runs out

that's not helpful for anyone as it just gets you a stalemate

[somber harbor]

Plenty of ways to push into hemmy

Several windows and doors

[unborn smelt]

yes they aren't the be all end all for any situation - ofc they arent

[frozen swift]

how do you push hemlock if they have traps set up and can flashbang you out of any real cover

[burnt mulch]

“but then they’ll just perfectly flash you and kill you” is the counterargument lol

[frozen swift]

its not hard to perfect flash

all you need is a location

that's it

[unborn smelt]

the point is to try and interrupt the enemies gameplan as much as necessary to make your own work

[somber harbor]

Jump over the traps

[frozen swift]

that is not consistent dav and you know it

[burnt mulch]

its actually pretty much consistent.

[unborn smelt]

So you can get up there and swap to your pistol if you feel it's better than being in a vulnerable to flashes spot

or you can hug the building and get into shotgun range peek spots

[burnt mulch]

but jump traps, trigger them, deactivate them. bait flashes, push from multiple angles, push with fallback points.

[frozen swift]

i don't want the game to just be me fucking sitting outside on the high ground waiting for the team to exit the compound or risk getting full flashed with no counterplay except running weird

[unborn smelt]

Also don't underestimate the roof, if you can make it to the lairs wall it's a really good shotgun spot assuming you don't get third partied

[somber harbor]

It's very consistent unless they have two traps a decent distance away from each other

[unborn smelt]

because then you can peek the window in shotgun range

[somber harbor]

Just stick a trap down on extract ajd jump over it when the times going down

You can p easily jump wombos too

[frozen swift]

waiting for others to make a move doesnt work in a game where people would rather get a timeout stalemate than leave compound

[unborn smelt]

Well yes - but flashes are the enabler to break such stalemates right now

[somber harbor]

Most people get impatient at the end

I do agree that isn't fun tho

[frozen swift]

like, dont get me wrong

you absolutely can make flashes essentially useless by staying out of range or so close with a shotgun they cant properly hit

the issue is that doing so usually relies on making other take the incentive to move

which is absolutely not always possible and leads to long stalemates where both parties dont want to move

the mid-range, where you are sort of able to do something if you dont have a shotgun or long ammo, simply doesnt exist in a lot of compounds when flash bombs are a factor

[burnt mulch]

or by pushing from multiple angles or falling behind better cover or running away such that it’s difficult to push you or baiting out their flash or having a teammate cover your retreat..

[frozen swift]

if there was a penalty for simply sitting in a compound an entire game or something, absolutely i think flash bombs would be fine

[unborn smelt]

I'd counter and say those happen by themselves just the same - but if you're agressive flashes actually allow you to break the stalemate

by surprising and disabling the "camping" party

[frozen swift]

pushing from multiple angles in duos just gets you killed in mid-range potato

better cover also is definitely not always available mid-range

running away can be a solution sometimes but not always

teammate covering your retreat helps only if they are using an appropriate weapon for that situation

[unborn smelt]

almost all guns work for that

the teammate just needs to know how to do it with the gun they're carrying

[burnt mulch]

are we assuming that the enemy flasher has a shotgun or something?

[unborn smelt]

(High alpha dmg needs to get a tag asap - while high RoF it's enough to threaten that HS)

[frozen swift]

shotgun or fast firing weapon

so like a winnie for example

[somber harbor]

This is why we run martini riposte, both close and short distance gun

[burnt mulch]

cuz i would hope that the close range gun and close range utility is strong at close range…

[frozen swift]

maybe their combination however shouldnt be strong enough to make mid-range unviable in a lot of scenarios, preventing close holds and forcing long-distance or ultra-close engagements only

[burnt mulch]

it doesn’t.

[frozen swift]

except it does as all the counters i have been told so far have been to be further away or so close they cant hit the flash properly

or to run if flashed and pray they dont kill you and your teammate kills them

[somber harbor]

If flashed move wacky as fuck mate

[burnt mulch]

there’s no praying if you ran to further cover.

[somber harbor]

Either get cover or move in a way that makes it harder for them to hit you

[unborn smelt]

The "counter" to flashes is A) "situational awareness/positioning" B) "Map knowlege" and C) "fast decision making"

there isn't a good way to surefire counter them, but i think that's what makes them interesting

they are a "skillcheck" if you will that needs to you assess the situation very fast, make a plan and execute said plan with full commitment

[somber harbor]

What is the counter to 3 bushes sparking up frags at once tho

Its my most hated type of AI

[frozen swift]

what are you talking about dav

[burnt mulch]

AI

[unborn smelt]

Now how exactly your plan looks depends on the circumstances (Your loadout, enemy loadout, your position, enemy position, your resources available, etc.)

So i'm not saying stay far back always - or stick really close always

If you got a shotty and are very close, push em hard and get the kill before the flash lands and waste the flashes effect by both you and them being hit.

If you got a sniper, well stay out of range

[frozen swift]

risking a doubleflash is a shit bet when they are being thrown out a window is the thing

[unborn smelt]

if you got a Winnie, see what gun they have, maybe by baiting shots and decide

[frozen swift]

works a treat if you are both not in a compound though

[unborn smelt]

are they shotgunners, go for "range" and cover

[burnt mulch]

if they’re being thrown out a window then they need to jump out of it to push you, no?

[unborn smelt]

If they have a mosin push them up close

[frozen swift]

what is your point?

[unborn smelt]

If you don't know what they have propably best to wait and gather intel

[burnt mulch]

they’re very vulnerable to jump out and finish the kill are they not

[frozen swift]

how does that make a doubleflash more viable?

yes but they do so after getting the flash not while its still in the air

[unborn smelt]

You can while blinded ready a throwable yourself

[burnt mulch]

it doesnt. but countering something isnt always a matter of trying the same thing over and over regardless of situation..

[frozen swift]

you're simply not always going to have a throwable at all times rango

[unborn smelt]

assuming they follow up flash em back, make em stay back with a frag fuze (or even decoy fuze if you are confident)

[frozen swift]

but that's what i was talking about there, not about doubleflashing being entirely useless

[unborn smelt]

you can try and block the way with concertina

[unborn smelt]

why we assume they have tho ?

[frozen swift]

because otherwise the flash aspect wouldnt be coming into play to begin with

[burnt mulch]

im not understanding.

[frozen swift]

yea whatever practical you are misinterpreting me im not continuing that thread

[unborn smelt]

But then lets assume at least one throwable for your team too

[frozen swift]

why?

[unborn smelt]

otherwise, in hunt you're expected to decide to back off if you know you're at a disadvantage

that's the sole reason why you can always leave

[frozen swift]

i feel the idea of a not having throwables should not necessarily put one at such a disadvantage they should entirely disengage because of the sheer possibility of a flash bomb

otherwise it's very apparent flash bombs are a problem

[unborn smelt]

you're supposed to weigh risk vs reward - so if you know you have 0 throwables left, you may wanna restock and try again next match, or go for a caravan

[burnt mulch]

you talked about how going for a double flash isnt always the correct play and gave an example and I said that theres other weaknesses you can exploit instead. I don’t like that you were making counterarguments to specific things in specific situations rather than taking them as a whole.

[unborn smelt]

yes it should

[frozen swift]

then why do other throwables not have this effect

[unborn smelt]

resource management is important for hunt

[frozen swift]

a frag does not have the power to disadvantage my team so much we'd better avoid engaging entirely

[unborn smelt]

if you don't get a meaningful advantage out of em why bring em ?

[unborn smelt]

It very much does

[frozen swift]

meaningful advantages dont have to be so meaningful they decide an encounter ahead of time

[unborn smelt]

There's a reason everyone and their mom bring frags

[burnt mulch]

I dunno if i agree with that specifically but

[frozen swift]

dont get me wrong frags are great and provide a big advantage

but im not so terrified of them i'd avoid pushing entirely

if the team uses it cleverly they can definitely get an advantage on my team but it isnt as deciding as a flash is

[unborn smelt]

Said reason being frags are tied for the most lethal with the big bundle, tíed for farthest range with the dynamite stick, while being the still cheaper than a regular bundle

adding stage 3 bleed and ignoring bulwark

they absolutely have the potential to outright win games and are by far a good enough reason to not engage if you're all out and you know they are still stocked with them

they can be thrown so far you can fully mask the fuze sound if you're good, they can be thrown so far you can't actually outrun them if you're not half the range away once the fuze starts

[frozen swift]

i suppose

but i'd say that moreso indicates a problem with frags than lack of a problem with flashes

consumables should be very important dont get me wrong

[unborn smelt]

Well that depends on ow one looks at it.

if one assumes frags are fine then IMO so are flashes

[frozen swift]

i dont feel they should be unavoidable

I think consumables should play more of a utility role personally

[unborn smelt]

If one assumes the powerlevel of high end throwables is too high then yeah flashes are also a problem in that regard

[frozen swift]

where the explosion is secondary to pushing one out of cover

[unborn smelt]

Well we have those too

that's mostly dynamite sticks and decoy fusees

[frozen swift]

i suppose if you look at frags as such a game-deciding factor that they decide an engagement before you even start it and think that's ok, 100% flashes are balanced

i think its more of a personal want for them to not fill that role and for skill to come on top more than happening to get lucky with a toolbox and getting a frag or flash

[unborn smelt]

I think playing around those is a type of skill too

[frozen swift]

i think that's a fair assessment but that skill translates to

sigh i have no consumables, time to extract

vs what could be a fun and engaging firefight

[unborn smelt]

I'm not a huge fan of the entire X- is skill and Y- is not.
For me Hunt always was about making the best out the cards you're dealt in the beginning. It's about improvising and weighing risk vs reward

[frozen swift]

it makes hunt more of a chore and less of a game

[unborn smelt]

so for me that's the most important skill there is

[frozen swift]

"For me Hunt always was about making the best out the cards you're dealt in the beginning." I think we agree on that point. I think we just disagree on extracting being an answer to that problem.

Where for you that's a perfectly valid solution, I'd like to avoid having to do so as much as possible.

[unborn smelt]

You don't have to leave - you just have to account for that in your plan going forward

I very rarely leave matches early even tho i'm almost always short on resources like HP bars, tools and consumables

[frozen swift]

except if the enemy knows you exist at all they might not go for extract until a fight would stalemate both of you from timeout

[unborn smelt]

But as soon as i realize i miss said options i change how i go about things

[frozen swift]

dont get me wrong i do too its just that i would prefer if there was counterplay to waiting strats

[unborn smelt]

Well usually if that happens (which for me is exceedingly rare) we usually leave the map and they die

[frozen swift]

which means none of you win

you just wasted time waiting on them and they just wasted time waiting on you

[unborn smelt]

you do know that you can extract as long as you are alone in the extract zone once the timer hits 0 ?

[frozen swift]

sure you technically lived and they didnt but like

yes i am aware rango

[unborn smelt]

just making sure, many dont

[charred pine]

Making out alive is still a chance to win later

[unborn smelt]

Yes if neither of the teams got tha balls to make the move - yes

[charred pine]

Dying is not a chance

[unborn smelt]

But the way i see it ** Neither of the teams ** means both teams failed equally at their job.

the ones pushing failed to actually sealed the deal and get the bounty while the ones inside failed at making their way out

[frozen swift]

in my eyes a lose-lose situation should not be a solution, though

its fun for neither party

[unborn smelt]

I'd rather have a loose loose situation that the game holding one sides hand when both are equally loosing and scared

[charred pine]

I'd argue the only losers are the ones that die, if you make it out alive, your hunter grows, you get more money, you dont lose your loadout

Bounty or not

[frozen swift]

i disagree with that sentiment

in my eyes waiting 20m to get another team killed is losing big-time

[unborn smelt]

So IMO solutions to the mexican standoff issue, which is as old as the game itself, need to be at least symetrical

[frozen swift]

i just wasted 20m of my time

so you would vouch for the removal of traps then, surely?

[unborn smelt]

Sure - but in the end you did it

nobody stopped you from trying to push anyway right ?

[frozen swift]

seeing as traps only increase the stalemates

[frozen swift]

nobody has stopped me from throwing myself off a roof yet either but that hasnt made it a good decision to do so

[unborn smelt]

Sure you might die - but that's you making the decision that potential loss is worth more than loosing 20 min time

[frozen swift]

being forced to push suicidally into traps and concertina or wait 20 minutes and stalemate is not a good situation

[unborn smelt]

What's that weird argument supposed to say ?

[frozen swift]

like i can throw myself off the top of prison and kill my hunter

to try and get a kill at the bottom

but that doesnt make it a good idea

[unborn smelt]

Whát i'm saying is if you during gameplay decide loosing 20 min is more desirable than making a bold push - that decision is entirely on you

[frozen swift]

it's the same vibe as running into a trapped up compound with a winnie without levering

[unborn smelt]

So IMO no reason to complain

If i don't feel like wasting time i just leave and go for a new hopefully more exciting game because i can't be bothered with those standoffs wasting up to 45 min of my time

I either push anyway - death or sovngarde, or i run for the nearest exit and have fun while they sit and cower

[unborn smelt]

you're not - you can leave any time

[frozen swift]

i mean i get your point right

[unborn smelt]

you're only forced to if you decided that it's worht more to you to stay than the time you waste

[frozen swift]

but it's from the standpoint that being forced to extract, suicide push or wait 20 minutes is in any way fun

and i wholely disagree with that

[charred pine]

Not winning shouldnt be as such a big deal in a video game IMO, sure it sucks the compound is trapped, sure I "wasted" time playing a video game for fun

[unborn smelt]

That is fine to disagree with

there's a good amount of peeps in all skill brackets that disagree with this

[frozen swift]

i dont mind not winning, volkot, i just want to have the damn fight and not be forced to leave a bunch of camping shotgunners in a building to wait out a timer

its just not fun for me to have to disengage from that

i dont want to give them what they want, which is for neither of us to get the bounty or for them to get it

[unborn smelt]

But what i always say is that i don'*t want to loose that aspect of BH which i very much enjoy as it seperates it from most BR games out there which i find really boring more often than not

[charred pine]

Its part of the game how they play, so the problem you have is too deep to be fixed with balance changes

[unborn smelt]

A possible solutions would be making QP available to teams too - as QP actually solves that issue (Not the way most people wish for, but it very much solves the issue of neither party pushing)

[frozen swift]

dont get me wrong volkot you are entirely right

but it can be reduced

i would enjoy qp duos btw

just uh, with concertina removed

[unborn smelt]

Like In QP the objective is enforced so there is one clear winner and if both sides are equally scared one eventually gets forced to do smth or loose

[frozen swift]

concertina being uncounterable in some scenarios in qp is ass

[unborn smelt]

because you may eventually be forced on the disadvantaged side you don't need to bring your own gear either

[unborn smelt]

they did address that a while back tho, didn't they ?

[frozen swift]

they did?

what did they do

[unborn smelt]

there's so many things that can destroy concertina by now

[frozen swift]

ehhh thats not really a fix though for qp

when you cant find dynamite or something youre left meleeing concertina down, which is slow, inefficient, and leaves you open to getting shot

[unborn smelt]

All rending dmg can destroy concertina, long ammo can shoot concertina and explosives can blow concertina up

[unborn smelt]

depends on what you do it with

[frozen swift]

for a tripwire that's 100% valid but a concertina bomb poops out so much wire there's not much one can do without being shotgun blasted to hell

[unborn smelt]

only 2-3 swings with an axe or talons after the buff

only a single dynamite

[frozen swift]

without relying on having found an explosive

which you cant guarantee in qp

[unborn smelt]

And the way the concertina blocks your bullets it blocks the enemies too so chances you're shot are really low

Again a situation of - find a solution with the cards you're dealt

IMO

Yes you don't always get that A+ efficiency answer to concertina

but you get a lot of diffrent options one of which you may choose to use

[frozen swift]

melee is suicide if the person guarding the concertina is at all watching

so you're left with long ammo and explosives arent you

[unborn smelt]

it's not - you can even use it as bait

i usually mained melee so i've meleed my fair share of concertinas in an active shootout

[frozen swift]

mmm i suppose for duos that's fair

[unborn smelt]

Sure if you're scared and thus indecisive it likely will backfire

[frozen swift]

what of a solo though

[unborn smelt]

but if you're fast and decisive - and use throwables or even wallbangs to your advantage it's very much a good solution

especially because in QP you can see where they hold the angle and watch the concertina from

[frozen swift]

uh im currently thinking of moses poultry in my head

where the person threw concertina midway down the stairs so they can retreat from bombs and concertina blocking the main door

i genuinely cant think of a way for a solo to counter that without getting shot

(if no explosives)

[unborn smelt]

yeah that's a tough one - you were upstairs or downstairs ?

[frozen swift]

they up, me down

[unborn smelt]

that's bad.

At that point i'd see what throwables and melee options i have

you can usually do 1-2 safe swings before the concertian is so thin you're at danger of being shot from the guy hiding behind it

but in that stairway ther'es that nasty overwatch spot on the haybale allowing them to really cover the concertina eaasily

So if possible one would need to deny that area for them with a throwable

[frozen swift]

you do get the idea of how that could be absolute ass in qp if you got unlucky with throwable drops tho

[unborn smelt]

or well take another entrance...

[unborn smelt]

oh yeah i do - that's why i don't like QP

not a fan of having a random loadout

I'd rather have my fav tools and reliable consumables

[frozen swift]

i dont mind random loadout, its nice and scrappy

[unborn smelt]

i don't mind random weapons

[frozen swift]

it just requires a couple picks here and there to be a little adjusted for fairness

[unborn smelt]

i like that a lot

[frozen swift]

you would prefer qp with your tools and consumables being set beforehand

[unborn smelt]

because i get bored af by the umpteenth long ammo + uppercut, or slug + uppercut in 6*

[frozen swift]

that's a fair solution

[unborn smelt]

But as far as tools go - i want my medkit, melee tool, derringer and throwing axes

[frozen swift]

i would agree with that

let's see, anything else for me to bitch about...

uh, long ammo op? lol

though my suggested fix is listed in #game-ideas

[unborn smelt]

I wouldn't even say it's OP

We just have yet to gat high tier medium and compact guns

[frozen swift]

winnie is high tier compact

its just the range that's the issue

[unborn smelt]

nah

[frozen swift]

what would be high tier compact in your eyes

[unborn smelt]

Like yes it gets played at high tier

but as far as balance goes it's not

it's made to be a good early weapon that stays good even until later

But it cannot hold a candle to mosin and the like in therms of actual power

[frozen swift]

and neither should it

[unborn smelt]

Which is why the mosin is unlocked later and magnitudes more expensive

[frozen swift]

but what would be high tier compact in your eyes

[unborn smelt]

But that's what i mean - we don't have any medium or compact ammo weapons that are worth the same late unlocks and prices the long ammo ones are

[frozen swift]

right but imagine you could make one

what would some of the aspects of a high tier compact weapon be

[unborn smelt]

the centennial was an attempt at it i think - but it failed miserably

they needed to reduce the price twice while buffing it twice

[unborn smelt]

TBH - since the ammo type restricts so much of balance propably mostly low dmg high RoF

[charred pine]

A choice of getting "random loadout" for your Hunter would be nice, like it using any weapons you currently have copies of. Maybe it could prefer weapons you have traits for or maybe it could be totally random, I'd like that. Somebody made a website which gives you a totally random one but having it ingame would be neat

[frozen swift]

so you mean a bornheim match?

[unborn smelt]

Which is good-ish, but medium slots are kinda wasted rn

because most other medium options are bad

[frozen swift]

you'd want a bornheim match with higher muzzle velocity or...

[unborn smelt]

but even tho the Broheim match can 2 tap at the blistering speed of over 200 Rpm, it's only just meh to good-ish

because it's expensive af and needs a medium slot with shitty ammo supply

[frozen swift]

personally i think the best way to take long down a peg is simply to increase the range of compact and perhaps medium by a bit so that long ammo no longer absolutely dominates anything over 50m

[unborn smelt]

What i'd want - lemme think

[frozen swift]

sure you dont want to fight a mosin with a winnie at 50m

but you can at least fire back and do enough damage to force someone back into cover

is the idea behind that

[unborn smelt]

i'd love some sort of combination gun - lower end shotgun with 1-2 compact rifle barrels

[frozen swift]

like a drilling rifle

[unborn smelt]

i'd love a weird burstfire weapon (Along the lines of a nock volley cartrige conversion)

[unborn smelt]

yeah - but not the usualy 2 romero and one sparks barrel that gets suggested

more like 2 Winnie shots and a specter HC shell

[frozen swift]

i think the issue with something like you are suggesting is - where are you going to use it

recoil means you want to be sorta in shotgun range anyways

and at that point you'd want a shotgun

( the burstfire idea i mean)

[unborn smelt]

yeah i don't see it be an absolute top tier weapon - as they as a whole bore me

[frozen swift]

vs the rifle you are suggesting where you have a shit springfield of sorts with a bad romero on the end

[unborn smelt]

I'd rather have it be smth that can rival them with a bit of extra skill and most importantly play somewhat unique and not just the umpteenth revolver or basic rifle

I'd love a double barrel medium ammo hunting rifle

[frozen swift]

would you agree that the issue with long rn is that it dominates long-range with its muzzle velocity and drop-off

[unborn smelt]

Yes and No - Long ammo is designed to be superior... that's it

that's why it's unlocked late and it's expensive

it has absolute ovekill dmg, which is important in CQC too because of the healthbar system and limb modifiers

it has the best range and highest max range

it's the easiest to hit with because of the high velocity

back with console release they unified sway so long lost the massive sway it had

[frozen swift]

So if you were to fix the power of long without adding new guns, simply rebalancing old ones, what would you be most likely to pick as a solution?

[unborn smelt]

it can stack a lot of ammo with the uppercut or sparps now

[unborn smelt]

I'd try to slowly inch towards more powerfull medium and compact rifles

[frozen swift]

More powerful in what sense?

[unborn smelt]

But most importantly i'd propably get rid of the compact medium long ammo system

[frozen swift]

Higher damage?

I would agree with that except i think its important to keep it for penetration

[unborn smelt]

because lumping those weapons together in 3 types really restricts what values can be used for balancing

[frozen swift]

Youre suggesting pen and such would be a weapon unique thing

This i like

[unborn smelt]

rn it fully blocks pen, range and modifiers as ways to make guns more unique and sort of blocks the dmg stat too

and it creates some issues with ammo stacking

[frozen swift]

True

[unborn smelt]

like double sparps + avto which got really annoying real fast imo

[frozen swift]

Yea agreed its insane

I think were on the same page just thinking of different solutions

[unborn smelt]

but if we try to stay within the system i'd go for a compact ammo nock volley gun, that's cartrige converted

[frozen swift]

What is a nock volley gun

Was that the burst thing you suggested?

[unborn smelt]

Essentially this

[frozen swift]

Holy shit

Hmmmm

[unborn smelt]

and make it so each trigger pull fires X- barrels

[frozen swift]

Could certainly be interesting

[unborn smelt]

maybe start with 3 and see how it balances

give it say 12 barrels and a long ass reaload

[frozen swift]

Dont think people'd like getting one-tapped at like 20m by it tho

[unborn smelt]

compact ammo - and you got a weird west feeling burstfire rifle that's still clunky

[unborn smelt]

yeah i'd do it with bursts

Did you play Remnant from the ashes

[frozen swift]

Nope

[unborn smelt]

by any chance ?

Aw hecc - there is a gun that was essentially a 2 round burst hand x-bow

smth like that in rifle format

the burst was not as fast as one would think

[frozen swift]

It could definitely be fun

[unborn smelt]

more like the shots within a burst were delayed by like a third to half a second

so it doesn't feel like getting onetapped

[frozen swift]

I dont think it solves the problem of long ammo necessarily though

It makes compact stronger close-up but keeps it so weak vs long a body shot wont force someone into cover beyond 50m or whatever

[unborn smelt]

oh no it doesn't by itself

but with guns like those i'd try to inch ever closer to matching the powerlevel and price of long ammo high tier

it wouldn't work initially, but i think it would eventually work

[frozen swift]

I dont think it solves the problem of "buy scope, stay far away"

[unborn smelt]

I think that problem is solved by just leaving for a diffrent exit

[frozen swift]

Not always feasible

The 500m thing they added a while back appears to not be functioning

[unborn smelt]

but i did a suggestion for spitzer waaaay back

which rather than just diffrent long ammo would have made it a low tier competitor for range

but suck at CQC

[frozen swift]

If crytek guaranteed every exit was 500m removed from one another and on a different side it would fix a lot of the scope problems

The 500m thing was implemented a while back but either removed or broken

[unborn smelt]

because rn long ammo is good in CQC by pure dmg, which helps with limbshots and gets as sominant as a nitro with good sights once a guny lost even just 25 hp

but we don't have a gun that can actually rival long ammo at range at all

[frozen swift]

Yea, and it means right now if extracts are bad a sniper team can hold a bounty team hostage between exits

[unborn smelt]

maybe introduce a special sniper ammo which could be for compact or medium ammo

[frozen swift]

I'd like that

At least start with making the winfield marksman a deadeye or higher range lol

[unborn smelt]

But spitzers already out of the equasion...

So maybe call it a hot load

[frozen swift]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[unborn smelt]

What i back then would have love for spitzer to do is actually interact with limbshot multipliers

so a special "smiper ammo" could IMO double HS multiplier, but in return half the arms, legs and lower torso multiplier

[frozen swift]

Imagine real quick a vetterli marksman with Spitzer that makes it do 90dmg over extended range with higher velocity

[unborn smelt]

So you crank that HS range way up

but if you lack the aim to only hit upper torso or head you gonna have a bad time

[frozen swift]

I wouldnt mind headshot machine snipers

One thing i would like a lot is for scoped movement to be decreased as well though

[unborn smelt]

could also come with diffrent downsides

[frozen swift]

I dare you to hit a target 200m away while moving side to side irl

[unborn smelt]

should is propably better

say really high recoil

or very much reduced recentering of the crosshair

like the crown got when slugs were introduced

[frozen swift]

I would like that a lot tbh

Spitzer equivalent for medium with extended range seems like a fantastic idea

[unborn smelt]

for example yes

make it available on the springie and maybe even cent

[frozen swift]

Springfield would be great for it

[unborn smelt]

that would at least give some truely long range sniper options that aren't long ammo based

[frozen swift]

Tbh i think centennial is sorta fine where it is

High rof for a sniper

[unborn smelt]

I think it got a bit too much buffs - but i'm fairly alone with that

😅

[frozen swift]

Ehhh maybe a little for close-range

[unborn smelt]

not at all saying it's op tho

it's far from it

[frozen swift]

But its not like insane yea agrees

Do you think making scoped movement slower would be a good move

At least for sniper and marksman that is

[unborn smelt]

it to me just doesn't feel unique anymore - it just feels like bit slower but more beefy winnie, which is just about as boring as it gets for me

[frozen swift]

Proportional to zoom

[unborn smelt]

mayhaps.

I'd love to see it slower on snipers - but faster on deadeyes

[frozen swift]

Agreed

[unborn smelt]

I'm no fan of it being the same reduction on all 3 scopes

So i'd like for the three to differ in ADS move speed

[frozen swift]

A mosin spitzer sniper shouldnt be able to a-d spam me hard while hitting a shot at 200m lol

Both for realism and balance purposes

Have you ever used a scope irl or in vr, rango?

[unborn smelt]

In VR yes - IRL yes bu rarely

[frozen swift]

Anything beyond 4x is impractical to use while moving

And even 4x id say is impractical

[unborn smelt]

most shooting with live ammo i've done was on an indoor shooting range so scopes were an overkill

[frozen swift]

I havent used a scope irl but i have at least a fair approximation from vr

(with gun stock)

Oh speaking of unrelated topic

Hl2 vr just releases rango

If thats your cup of tea

[unborn smelt]

I sadly don't have a VR setup myself

[frozen swift]

Ah, that's too bad.

[unborn smelt]

I played VR when i visited a friend of mine

[frozen swift]

Can I mention my appreciation for the rational, reasonably calm discussion we've had so far?

[unborn smelt]

I got my experience from scopes with ~5 hours of Pavlov VR and a few times on an actual shooting range

[late wind]

Idk. The steel gong I shoot with my lebel irl at 200 yards is only about 6 inches wide. And I could definitely hit a person at that range.

[frozen swift]

While moving?

[unborn smelt]

Oh absolutely, right back at ya. It's always really cool if people can argue nicely even if no agreement is reached as it happens sometimes

[frozen swift]

Side to side rapidly?

Because damn i am impressed in that case, how do you manage to keep the scope steady?

[late wind]

A person is a whole lot bigger than a 6 inch gong lmao. I'm pretty sure I could.

[late wind]

I'm not a rich enough man to own a sniper lebel. Mine is a standard iron sighted version.

[frozen swift]

If you do manage to hit a target within like 1-2 meter of deviation while moving at the speed of a hunter with ironsights, i applaud you

*consistently, that is

[late wind]

Especially because the lebel projectile moves faster irl by about 100 m/s.

[frozen swift]

I dont even mean a moving one

[late wind]

Oh and the sights are way better.

[frozen swift]

Either way even removing the realism reason, i'd argue the gameplay aspect standa

Stands*

[late wind]

I actually can.

[frozen swift]

Most games nerf snipers into the ground with scope glint

Cod snipers move slower than hunt's when zoomed in in most scenarios

[unborn smelt]

TBH i like what could be done with glint

[frozen swift]

I'm very mixed on glint

[unborn smelt]

i just don't like how it's usually tied to being in ADS and then is just a very bright light

[frozen swift]

On the one hand an ambush shouldnt be ruined by the glint, on the other hand bushcamping a sniper shouldnt be as feasible

[unborn smelt]

Something i would love in Hunt is if looking at light category items with a scope creates glint

Say you're expecting a sniper

[frozen swift]

So like you turn on an electric lamp

If you are looking at a sniper, glint if theyre looking back

I would very much like that

[unborn smelt]

shoot a flare or yeet a fusee in the direction you think and see it a gling shows up

[frozen swift]

Flare gun needs a buff

We can all agree on this im sure

[unborn smelt]

yeah stuff like that i think could be cool

would also make them more viable on day maps...

even if not really realistic

[frozen swift]

45$ for shit fusees is the flare gun in a nutshell

[unborn smelt]

but in that case i'd apply rule of cool for balance over realism

[frozen swift]

Agree

I really really like that idea

Should suggest it if you hadnt already

[unborn smelt]

maybe i'll put it i the channel when i get to it

[frozen swift]

Speaking of light gadgets

How do we make the flare gun not shit

[unborn smelt]

I think it's quite okay...

maybe make it get back ammo from the special crates tho

[frozen swift]

Its loud fusees that dont blind as much for a little range

[unborn smelt]

Issue is with the adding of gamma settings, existence of filters and low chance for night maps there really is no good use for light anymore

so it's just for setting hives on fire right now

[frozen swift]

I think visibility in the dark is an inherent problem with different hardware

When we get the ability to beam images directly into ones head we can play around with it more

As much as that saddens me because i love the concept

[unborn smelt]

ya know - i just want diffrent color flares mostly

[frozen swift]

Lol

[unborn smelt]

other stuff weould be cool too

[frozen swift]

Give me my pink flares

[unborn smelt]

but gimme diffrent colors

[frozen swift]

What do you think about the literal pay to win night terrors skin

[unborn smelt]

I'd love a green one, blue, red, orange, pink, purple

[unborn smelt]

wait what ?

You mean the Winnie talon ?

[frozen swift]

Its a winnie talon without the sight block

Aka gives more visibility if you pay for the skin

[unborn smelt]

It was the first Winnie talon skin

so it doesn't have the blocking thing because that back then was not a thing jet iirc

TBH i personally think none of the talons should have that

[frozen swift]

Imo they should just remove it from all talons

Yea

[unborn smelt]

including the base talon

[frozen swift]

Serves no purpose

[craggy pike]

yea i think that blocker is silly

[unborn smelt]

it's literally a scope mount and it has no scope

[unborn smelt]

IIRC the devs said it's purpose is to remind the user that they are using a talon not a normal one

so you don't melee an immo on accident for example

[craggy pike]

there must be a better way lol

[unborn smelt]

But i really don't like that argument

it's no issue on the Romero or Lebel either

[frozen swift]

Right

That's what i was thinking

Are you team slugs are balanced or team slugs are op

[unborn smelt]

I don't like slugs

but i don't think they are OP either

[frozen swift]

I honestly think they're bad

I'd rather have more shots and not have to worry about hitting an arm or something than have a slightly longer range

[unborn smelt]

What i specifically don't like about them is that increasing the OHK and making them really expensive is just a really cheap and uninteresting way to go about it

I personally would have preferred them to be focused on Headshots, and penetration

[frozen swift]

Yea... Slugs could have turned shotguns into interesting rifles

[unborn smelt]

Essentially if you think about the Nitro it has a long HS range, long Body onehit kill range and amazing pen and creature dmg

Slugs took the most boring part of this - the body OHK

[frozen swift]

Don't forget about the bad ammo count and being special

[unborn smelt]

And i'd love to have slugs that ditch the body OHK but get the rest - okay headshot range, amazing pen and good dmg against AI

I personally wouldn't even mind if we get 2 diffrent types of slugs

like hecc keep the ones we have and add the other ones because they'd be cool to play too

one could be called foster type slugs and the other brenneke

[craggy pike]

could change slugs into these, long distance, high penetration, worse for 1-taps. call them Dartshot

[unborn smelt]

or one could be real slugs and the other improvised slugs (Shot held together by way or a cut shell)

[unborn smelt]

I mean AP twenty might be a bit modern for the setting

[craggy pike]

well sure, just age it up and say it's experimental new ammo

[unborn smelt]

but some historical options were foster vs brenneke type slugs

or when slugs were not available - people improvised by bunbdling shot via molten wax or by cutting the shell to use shot like slugs for hunting

especially the latter would make a lot of sense

[craggy pike]

it would be neat though to effectively have a spike launcher instead of slugs

[frozen swift]

Flechette is that isnt it

[unborn smelt]

because the slugs we got really just behave like bukshot with no spread - so renaming them to wax slugs would make perfect sense

[frozen swift]

Just small spikes

[craggy pike]

that's a lot of thin spikes

[unborn smelt]

and would even explain why they don't have really good pen or HS range

[somber harbor]

personally think we should just remove slugs and make flechette the shotgun king

[unborn smelt]

because after penetrating the wax disintegrates and it behaves like regular buckshot again

bonus points if in hunt they would signify that by making it essentially spread and pen like a shotbolt after the first pen

[frozen swift]

Would be fun

I would like that

[unborn smelt]

while the normal slugs could be the HS and Pen focused variant

[frozen swift]

I like the idea of a cheap full slug ammo that turns the shotgun concept on its head

A romero that can serve as a shit sparks or a shotgun up close would be neat

[unborn smelt]

I fear they don#t want that tho

as in the devstream they did specifically say they wanted slugs to OHK and feel like a shotty not a rifle

right after which they implemented DB, Flechette and even st arshells that all also couldn#t OHK on introduction and starshell also doesn't feel like playing a shotty

[frozen swift]

I like the idea of a like 50m range low muzzle velocity 124ish damage capped shotgun shot

[unborn smelt]

But a man can dream - right

me too, me too

i'd love that

[frozen swift]

Run that on a rival

You have a shit sparks with good two tap capability

[unborn smelt]

I don't like rival

but slap it in a romero and we talking

exceptionally clunky rifle shotty hyprid

[frozen swift]

Fun thing is we can restrict ammo to certain guns

[unborn smelt]

I don't mind it being on a rival

i just wouldn't play it

[frozen swift]

Speaking of where is my medium high velocity pistol

So i can double up for vetterli

[unborn smelt]

Laughs in pre nerfs Dolch

[craggy pike]

Pax HV would be neat, and give people a reason to use the thing

[frozen swift]

Pax is already better than scotfield

[unborn smelt]

I don't think pax HV would be that popular

[half stag]

only happening if we get a semi-auto medium ammo secondary (very unlikely to happen), or a howdah

[frozen swift]

Problem is its not better than the spitfire

[unborn smelt]

Pax is just too close to conversion performance and too far from Uppercut

[frozen swift]

But nagant hv tho prowlore

[unborn smelt]

it's barely a middleground

[craggy pike]

that's more of a medium ammo issue though

[half stag]

its cause of the gas seal the nagant has

[craggy pike]

i medium was actually in the middle

[unborn smelt]

OOooooe a single shot medium ammo pistol

[half stag]

its mentioned in the book of weapons as well

[half stag]

oh yea thats true as well

[craggy pike]

i still want springfield compact to be a one-slot pistol

[unborn smelt]

gimme a rolling block pistol for medium single shot

[frozen swift]

Agreed tbh fango

[unborn smelt]

or a Howdah double barrel medium ammo

[frozen swift]

I would also like free hunters to come with less medium slot guns

[unborn smelt]

I just want medium slots to not suck as much

[craggy pike]

we'll get something like a 1911 before we get that lol

[hearty rivet]

@broken moat No offence but not having a single daytime map in 20 rounds sounds insanely unlikely >_> If that's true you should buy a lottery ticket.

[frozen swift]

Why tf they have to nerf winfield c damage

Muzzle velocity i get

Damage makes sense in universe

But like it just makes it so bad

[unborn smelt]

Crytek: lets nerf the already weak medim slot rifles with lower dmg and lower velocity for nothing but consistency
also Crytek: lets add a sparps pistol that dealy full 149 dmg despite essentially no barrel

[craggy pike]

yea balance has been smoking something

[unborn smelt]

just change the damn sway on the medium slots

[frozen swift]

Does anyone understand the logic of nagant obrez drum existing but not a full drum

[unborn smelt]

no reason the Hunter gets heccin parkinsons the monent they touch one

[craggy pike]

i wish weapon sway was influenced by more factors

[unborn smelt]

They don't even need to remove the sway entirely - just make it not pe permanently there