#Lighting advice

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

young trench
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Also, I've understood out of the box HA on a rasperrypi, doesn't support zigbee? I've seen some usb sticks to add that, but couldn't find what they are?
I also saw HA green and yellow, but I think only yellow comes with zigbee?

fiery tusk
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I have some Zigbee lamps on "dumb" light switches, and it is annoying, because if the physical light switch is off, the lamp vanishes from the network, so you cannot control it anymore and any devices that are meshed to it will potentially encounter issues as well. It also makes it impossible to have automations like "if this light turns on, turn on the other three lights as well". So, from that perspective, having a smart light switch may be the better option, but I don't have any experience with those, so I can't help you with any recommendations. I would also consider how the smart switch works - if it controls the power to the lamp directly, you can use a "dumb" lamp with it, but using such a switch with a smart bulb (because you also want smart dimming or whatever), may lead to the same problem I described above, just in an easier-to-work-around manner.

Generally, smart lightbulbs will be cheaper than smart wall switches, if you are willing to deal with the pain I described.

loud portal
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I have some smart switches in my house

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i recommend the klik aan - klik uit
They are easy to use
Only downside when installing smart light switches is that you need to have a blue cable, and most lights run the blue cable to the light itself instead of the switch socket

young trench
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Yea, I'm aware of that downside of just having smart bulbs - If the switch is down, you lose all abilities. So I would like to get away from that and only focus on smart switches or traditional switches with a shelly or zigbee behind those. But I'm really having a hard time trying to figure out what is best.

fiery tusk
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Home Assistant is pure software, while Zigbee needs some RF hardware. So, yes, you will need some hardware to create the zigbee mesh. There are fairly cheap USB sticks for that. For example, the Home Assistant SkyConnect (I think that was the name), but also others by other manufacturers. You can hook these up to a Pi no problem.

Generally, Pi's are a good starting point, but you will reach the hardware limitations at some point, and then you maya have to move to a different platform. Also, SD cards tend to wear out and break at some point, so a different board will be more future proof. In my case, I'm running HA from a VM running on an old laptop in my basement.

young trench
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@loud portal the blue cable, do you mean the neutral?

fiery tusk
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I've been using a cheap Zigbee stick for several years now, and while it's not perfect, it works well enough most of the time. I'd also be interested in recommendations for other Zigbee hardware that is a bit more advanced than the cheap Zigbee sticks.

loud portal
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the -

young trench
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@fiery tusk Yes! I'm also considering using a old laptop, that way I could also setup a NAS server together with HA. Does the usb sticks to provide zigbee mesh are also supported that way?

fiery tusk
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You will have to somehow expose the stick to the VM / Docker container running HA, but yes, it works well

loud portal
cold talon
fiery tusk
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Same for me - proxmox bare-metal on the laptop, with VM inside for HA.

cold talon
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Normal switches + a shelly or a zigbee , or one of those new touch smartswitches that already have zigbee in? What would be the most affordable and lasting solution?
Personally, I'd get Zigbee switch/dimmer modules to fit behind the switch - between the switch and light.

That way you keep your decor while making things smart

loud portal
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  • you can easily switch out your bulbs
cold talon
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Lighting advice

fiery tusk
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I have to occasionally (every few months) disconnect and reconnect the USB stick to get it to keep working - at some point, the pairing of new devices would stop working, and then later, the network would become unreliable. However, this maybe happens every 4-6 Months, and so far, I've been fine with just occasionally replugging the cable.

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(Make sure to put the Zigbee stick on a USB extension cable and not plug it in directly to the device to avoid interference)

cold talon
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Your options will depend on the country you're in, but generally stay away from Sonoff's Zigbee devices

young trench
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Does a zigbee swith/dimmer behind the switch, or still allow to control a normal bulb intensity ?

quaint dust
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I made everything simple in my home by running Tuya enabled wireless IoT devices.

cold talon
loud portal
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you could also use these if you dont have a neutral wire and arent allowed to pull it to the switch

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but it works on battery
I have mine now for 2 years

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still havent changed it tho

young trench
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I've made sure to setup ethernet, neutral and energy points all around the house to keep all my options open!

loud portal
young trench
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I don't dislike the "new" modern switches - this is just an example of the look of it:
https://www.google.com/search?q=smart+switch+wall&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwiC6p3rkaWCAxUCRqQEHRSyCc4Q2-cCegQIABAA&oq=smart+switch+wall&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQA1AAWABgR2gAcAB4AIABAIgBAJIBAJgBAKABAaoBC2d3cy13aXotaW1nwAEB&sclient=img&ei=Q35DZcK8NoKMkdUPlOSm8Aw#imgrc=3HeJXVH6QBNFwM
My main question is:
What is cheaper and long lasting - These kind of smart switches with zigbee already on it, or a normal switch with a zigbee behind it.
From what I've read, zigbee doesn't over"charge" your wifi network, and they also create a mesh ensuring better connection between them. So I'm taking shelly's out of the picture - or am I wrong?

cold talon
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Zigbee is completely separate to WiFi

loud portal
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zigbee connects to each other and dont use wifi

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the more zibee devices the better your zigbee network

young trench
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yes, its from frequency

cold talon
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Personally I prefer modules to switches purely because you can use whatever switch suits your decor/needs

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Want to change the switches when you redcorate?, zero impact to your setup

young trench
loud portal
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i would go for module behind your default switch

cold talon
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Want to upgrade the smarts, you can do that without changing the look and feel

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There are some exceptions, but I'm a huge POLA fan

young trench
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Haven't thought of that that way, very interesting points!

fast oarBOT
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The Principle Of Least Astonishment means that things should work in an obvious way - don't expect that you can teach people to do things differently to how they've always done it

loud portal
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buy something else

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this way you still keep your smart

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def would recommend dont buy a whole smart switch

young trench
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How about costs - for example, my electrician would sell me the normal switches I want for around 6€. From what I've seen, a zigbee module is around 15-20€. So the total price would be around 23,5€. Whereas the smart swtiches that already have zigbee on, are around 20-25€. Seem I can go either way

loud portal
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just buy the module

young trench
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Additional question. With HA either on rasperrypi or on a old laptop + the zigbee usb, would I still require a zigbee gateway?

cold talon
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No, the USB is the gateway

fiery tusk
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The USB Stick would serve as the coordinator in that case, and replace the gateway. If the switches are compatible with Zigbee2MQTT or whatever integration you want to use, you should be fine with skipping the gateway

loud portal
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aint there a usb that does all in 1 ?

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Zwave zigbee

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etc

cold talon
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Yes, and it's old, crappy, and only for North America

young trench
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Since you touched that point, what should I got for - zwave or zigbee? I've understand they can't work together. zwave seems to fit less devices, but has more range. zigbee allows more devices but has lesser range? The house is around 350m2

cold talon
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Actual range is similar in the real world

young trench
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The more I research, the more options I find, this is so confusing. Thanks for bearing with me guys!

cold talon
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Z-Wave costs more, but you know it'll all work

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Zigbee is cheaper, but requires a bit more research before buying

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I started with Z-Wave, and moved entirely to Zigbee

loud portal
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how do you mean it doesnt work togheter cant you just buy 2 USBs connect them

young trench
loud portal
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and then just get a zigbee device and a zwave

cold talon
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Devices that don't work well with others, or just don't work well

fiery tusk
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However, I'm running a network with TuYa, IKEA and some other manufacturers mixed, and so far, I haven't had any serious issues.

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So, mileage may vary.

cold talon
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Xiaomi are generally fine these days, Tuya however is an absolute clusterfuck, as are Sonoff

young trench
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I though we could connect any kind of device (as long as supported) to HA, and they HA can integrate them all. So for example if I have a tuya device that doens't like any other device. I would just add them both to HA and they could integrate?

cold talon
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Tuya WiFi != Tuya Zigbee

wanton mural
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I'd agree with that @cold talon

fiery tusk
wanton mural
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I use a bunch of Xiaomi zigbee buttons, switches, PIRs and door sensors

fiery tusk
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My impression is that it's mostly the mesh networking that may have issues because of this

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But I'm not an expert here.

cold talon
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My mesh is mostly Innr and Xiaomi, with some Hue, Gledopto, Develco, Linkind, and even one Tuya (Moes) device

fiery tusk
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And it works without hiccups for you?

cold talon
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Yes

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The other Tuya devices got binned for being shite

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As did the Osram (fucked over the mesh)

wanton mural
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Tuya wifi ones? always shite.

cold talon
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Oh, and some Ikea Tradfri bulbs, they all work fine - not as good as Hue, but cheaper

young trench
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With all your inputs, I'm lean to go with traditional switches and zigbee modules! Any recommendation for the zigbee modules? Available in Europe.
Are the zigbee modules like shellys? You can have several types for different purposes, or are they simpler?

wanton mural
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I have one left.. the GF purchased a "Sunset Lamp" that is Tuya wifi.. she got home and was super proud she bought a light that "might work with the house"... So it's still on the network LOL

cold talon
wanton mural
# young trench With all your inputs, I'm lean to go with traditional switches and zigbee module...

I rent so I didn't have a choice with the physical switches; so I had went with zigbee buttons in much better and more obvious locations than the light switches were (you had to walk half way across the kitchen to turn it on for instance!) .. but in order to keep things sensible they all work the same; one tap is nearest light, double tap is the most obvious next light; long press turns anything that's on nearby to white/full bright or if nothing on everything nearby to full/white

fiery tusk
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When I had my shade modules installed (also a "behind a regular switch" variety), it turned out that they were a bit too thick to fit inside the standard installation space behind the regular switch. Led to a lot of cursing from the electrician, and some impromptu drill hammer work. Are these Xiaomi modules small enough to avoid such problems? 😅

young trench
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Does 1 zigbee module only work with 1 single switch? For example, if I have a switch to control more than one light, is there any module for that?

loud portal
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no

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1 for all

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1 usb works with all your zigbee stuff

young trench
young trench
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Or for example if I have 2 traditional light switches together, if there is a zigbee module that can control both

cold talon
fast oarBOT
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There are three Zigbee options with Home Assistant (regardless of how you install it). These are:

zha is actively developed as part of Home Assistant Core, using the zigpy stack, the UI also being part of Home Assistant. The EmberZNet based sticks are recommended (though the HUSBZB-1 uses an older chipset), but there are other options including the CC2652 based sticks. There is no list of supported devices, as any standards compliant device should work. Devices that require extra support are listed, and adding unsupported devices is documented.

Zigbee2MQTT is very actively developed and can run in an add-on, in a Docker container, and natively. As of 1.15 has a native UI, and it also uses MQTT for control and configuration. It supports mostly TI based sticks, with the recommended option being the [CC2652 based sticks](#zigbee-archived message). If you want to use an EmberZNet stick see this issue. The known working devices are well documented (which usually includes how to pair them so you don't have to find the manual), and adding unsupported devices is also documented.

deCONZ is relatively stable and mature with its own UI (and Discord server). It can run in an add-on, in a Docker container, or natively. Only the ConBee range of sticks and RaspBee GPIO boards are supported. Known working devices are documented, and how to request support for a new device is documented too (you can't add unsupported devices yourself).

cold talon
young trench
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Thinking on the future, how can I know a security camera or a alarm are compatible with HA? My goal (way to much in the future) is to have a wall mount where I can have everything displayed, from lights, to doorbell to cameras

cold talon
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Easy, make sure it supports RTSP and ideally ONVIF

young trench
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Ok cool! Will investigate what those are. Thank you all, this helped a lot!

cold talon
young trench
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Another thing that just crossed my mind. I won't have HA ready until the house is finished and the network provider installs everything. I would like that the electrician is working now, to already install the zigbee modules. Can I pair the zigbee modules into the mobile app now, and then when HA is ready, move them to it? Or will I have to open the socket, and click on the pairing button for every module?

fiery tusk
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There is no standalone mobile app, you will need an on-site installation of Home Assistant with Zigbee to get everything set up. I'm not 100% sure, but my impression is that part of the network logic also lives on the Zigbee stick configuration, so you should ideally already use the final device you will use to host your Zigbee network. Home Assistant works without internet, so as long as you have power, you should be able to get everything set up, I think.

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Pairing devices after they have been installed depends on the device itself, try to find the manual. For my shade controllers, I can get them into pairing mode by turning the power off and on (using the fuses). not a great solution, but it could work in a pinch if your chosen devices support it.

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Whatever you do, keep in mind that changes to the basic properties of the network (used radio channel, network encryption keys, etc.) will require re-pairing all of your devices. So figure out which zigbee channel you want to use to avoid WiFi interference, and ensure you don't accidentally use a default network key (there used to be a static default key in Zigbee2mqtt, I don't know if they got rid of it yet). You can find information in one of the pinned messages in #zigbee-archived