thread-archived

[spice imp]

No, its not purely a firmware decision on the device. Once you have a certian amount of "routing" devices new devices, capable of being a router are not always automatically promoted to be a router and just stay being a child. I had this problem when adding the border router in HomeAssistant, since i already had over 16 or sth routers in my thread network, the border router stayed a "child" and therefore did not act as a border router. I could force it to become a routing device though.

[toxic vector]

I somewhat intentionally excluded differences in thread between REED that is and is not routing at that moment (and this also occurs in zigbee and zwave though implementation detail varies)

[spice imp]

Fair enough. I just thought that its important to mention though, that a device might not act as a router even if its capable of it and does so in other circumstances.

[toxic vector]

Thread does try to balance the number of routers at 16, so yeah in a mesh with <= 16 REED's, they'll all be promoted to routers

It should try to maintain BR's as routers

It can drop them, but still tries to keep a BR on the mesh

And it'll typically only allow more than 16 REEDs when mesh topology just simply doesnt allow less, which is errm, non ideal

Dunno, string up a bunch of lamps down a hypothetically super long corridor and it might eventually allow 17+ active routers

It gets even more aggressive north of 23 routers, and has a hard limit of 32 routers

and 511 end devices per router (though connections to other routers also eat into that limit as 1 end device each)

[spice imp]

Will the network actually start to partition after that?

[toxic vector]

Tbh, I do not know the concrete answer to that question. I can only assume probably?

[spice imp]

brb, need to take loan to test that 😄

[toxic vector]

TREL also has impacts to partitioning

[spice imp]

i think the initial intention was to stop partitioning

[toxic vector]

It was one of the considerations

not the only one

but yeah, because the BRs communicating off mesh counts as an encapsulated route between the BRs, its a route for the entire mesh, and so a mesh that would otherwise have been split in 2 can be maintained as 1 partition via that 1 TREL link (or more)

Not likely to get to mess about with that sorta thing in my home, its just too small

the furthest way I can get a thread device in my house from the 1 border router is still in range of the BR

[spice imp]

you must have good neighbors

[toxic vector]

Well, its a house. Theres a fairly thick wall between either neighbour and me

Line of sight to 2 other neighbours from a window

but all in all, thats not really the most wireless congestion

Using one of the scanners on my phone, theres no wifi routers besides my own with signal strength better than -80dB, my own is like -30dB

[cinder pond]

I have a thread border router set up with a SONOFF Zigbee Gateway, ZBDongle-E 3.0 and the Silicon Labs Multiprotocol add-on. Does anybody know if (even) I can turn on NAT64 support here? I am using a Nuki 4th gen and would like to enable remote access capability (without needing to expose my whole hass instance)

Not sure btw if this is more appropriate for #add-ons-archived

[spring bramble]

As far as I know that option only exists for the Thread only (OpenThread Border Router) add-on, the Multiprotocol add-on is not really actively maintained with additional features, development capacity is going to Thread only.

[full canopy]

Ugh! I woke up this morning to see that my devices have now half moved back into the Apple network.
Damn Google #### caused all this.
Anyone know how I can wipe any trace of this Google network from existence?
Does it’s existence in HomeAssistant have any affect if SkyConnect is being used for the credentials? I had previously imported the credentials, but I never removed it once I got all the Google things onto the Apple network.

[twin vine]

Huh right, never had that issue, did you on IOS or android?

[full canopy]

I’m on iOS

[twin vine]

Hmmmn strange as, my google BR’s always stayed on the merged network (Myhomexx) made by Apple

[full canopy]

It was all in MyHome, then I restarted an AppleTV (I guess it was the leader or something) and after that, all the BR’s (including SkyConnect) moved on their own to the NEST-PAN- network

And now this morning, some AppleTV’s have decided that life is better in the MyHome network (but not all of them)

[spring bramble]

You have a battle between Google and Apple going on in your home

[twin vine]

i have never seen that before, is all your gear up to date (aka using thread 1.3). and your google nest gear on fuchisa 16.xx, that sounds like a bug of some sort

[full canopy]

Yup, everything up to date. It’s also not the “temp” NEST network that it made after the factory reset, it’s the one that I had, once upon a time, imported the thread credentials for in HA

I’ve unplugged the Googles now, and slowly everything is going back to Apple

Then I’m going to kill all the other networks in HA

And hopefully… that’s enough, and I’ll turn the Google’s back on

All of my NL devices have already moved back, but there in the app you can “force” choose the network.
Just waiting now for my EVE devices…

[twin vine]

Ah wait, appears that fuchisa 16 has dropped on the production gear

[twin vine]

cant say i have had the same, otherwise i would of reported it to the fuchia guys

i have a fuchsia VM w/ a nordic thread dongle for testing, and even that is stable/staying on correct network

[full canopy]

If SkyConnect is used for credentials, and it knew of this network, could it in theory have provided the details to the devices?

[twin vine]

stefan would know more, but it was introduced with 1.3

https://www.threadgroup.org/Portals/0/documents/support/Thread1.3.0WhitePaper_07192022_3990_1.pdf

its somewhere in here 😅

but assuming everything was on the apple network before you set up the google devices from a factory reset, it should have hooked on and stayed on the merged one

i think its 3.2 of that, but might be wrong

[sick swan]

We don't reconfigure devices actively.

The only way way I can explain what you are seeing is that if Google/Apple Matter fabrics start to reconfigure devices.

Which I think I've seen indications of in other places.

A thread device can know about multiple Thread networks. I am not sure how it decides which one it picks, probably similar logic to how a Laptop would connect to a WiFi network if multiple are in range: rather random but usuually to the one with the stronges signal or something.

@full canopy I assume you have separate Thread networks for Google and Apple correct? And SkyConnect, is it on a separate Thread network as well?

[full canopy]

Originally, yes. Then I did the following (with iPhone):

• Imported Apple credentials
• Made Apple Network Primary
• Moved SkyConnect to Apple and let it manage the credentials
• Borrowed an Android from someone to import the Google credentials (I’m not sure why, other than to see what was possible)
• Factory reset Google Nest devices
• Google devices came back on different NEST network. After some time, they moved on their own to the Apple network.
• Rebooted an AppleTV
• All devices (including Apple and SkyConnect) automatically decided to start using the NEST-PAN network (not the one after the factory reset, but the original one where I imported the credentials)
• Now I have turned off the Google devices, restarted all the Apple, and now devices are slowly moving back to Apple. All of my Nanoleaf have moved, and half of my Eve (or that half never left Apple). But, I have a few Eve plugs which now seem to be hell bent on using this NEST network.
• I have now “deleted” the NEST network and the home-assistant network from the HA thread section.

[spring bramble]

I think the devices indeed have multiple thread networks. If you had reset them to factory defaults first and then commisisoned from an iPhone I bet they would only have the network defined in iOS, unless the nest pan network is also in the apple credentials, in that case.....maybe Apple send all the creds ?!

[full canopy]

I had to factory reset some Eve devices, but now everything is finally back on the network.
I don’t really want to turn those Google devices back on now though 😂 Maybe I should just tell my kids that there was a power surge and all the screens broke, and they should ask for HomePod’s for their birthdays 😁

[sick swan]

The OTBR 2.5.0 is out, it should address this issue. Was this still reproducible for you? Can you check if 2.5.0 indeed fixes the issue?

Does someone know how I can disable the Thread BR functionality of a Nanoleaf Lines device? I remember initially it wasn't a BR, I had to click something in the app. But I was wondering if I can revert it to not being a BR by default.

I must add, I don't see problems with it/Thread, at least not something I'd attribute to that Nanoleaf Lines BR. But for testing our OTBR, I like to have a vanilla setup as much as possible. It also guarantees that the OTBR is the only and primary BR in my network.

[inner torrent]

I think they took that option away

(turning off the NL BR)

[vapid shell]

For my shapes I Hard reset and didn’t press the button to configure it as a BR and that was that

Though it is currently unplugged

Which also works quite well

[night moth]

Ill try the update tomorrow, it has been better since the previous update though

[sick swan]

Yeah I am using this feature as well currently 😅

[bronze fog]

The unplugged state of all NL devices is the best state LOL

[night moth]

Not since the latest beta was released 😛

[final rampart]

Doing a bit of search didn't bring anything up. I'm seeing this message a lot on the thread addon. I can't tell if it's normal or an issue though

Default: DNS Message from 192.168.1.18:48147 to 224.0.0.251:5353 length 4 too short

but it's weird cos based on the router .18 is a phone

[twin vine]

you got NAT64 on?

that seems like a trel issue

[final rampart]

No that was off

I'm such a big idiot though

to run multiprotocol with the SkyConnect do you not only need the multiprotocol addon and then matter addon?

the open thread border addon is if you want to run dedicated thread right?

[vapid shell]

Yes, you can’t run both addons at once.

Dedicated thread is the preferred one atm - for stability and performance

[stuck valley]

Wonder if there's someone that can give me some advice as to how to troubleshoot my HA Thread setup. I've got a ZBDongle-E and flashed it with the MultiPan firmware. Added the Silicon Labs Multiprotocol, which added the Matter Server and integrations etc. I've successfully added a Zigbee device, but it seems that the Eve Power Sockets I have don't want to join the Thread Network. They just sit on Bluetooth. Firmware is up to date according to the Eve app.

do I have to set the thread network to a join mode or something?

[full canopy]

Does the Thread Radio on the new iPhone make it do anything different during commissioning a matter device (for example) etc compared to the older iPhones? Or is it just sitting there doing nothing for now?

[stuck valley]

It does nothing with the QR image. But looking at the Eve device it says it's only using Bluetooth, so not in a Thread network.

[full canopy]

are they old eve devices?

as in, they were updated later to the matter firmware?

Because, I have two that were later updated to the matter firmware. And then of course, the codes on the sides of the plug don't work anymore. I had to take screenshots of the new codes when I upgraded the firmware

I've also not tried the multiprotocol firmware, I use the dedicated OTBR add-on

[stuck valley]

So they have an option to upgrade to Matter, but they won't as they can see a thread network.

wont let me post a picture

[serene prawn]

Please use imgur or other image sharing web sites, and share the link here.

Image posting is blocked in most channels to discourage people from sharing text as images. Sharing text as images assumes that everybody sees the world as you do, which isn't the case. Some people are colour blind, or have visual impairment that means they can't make sense of an image of text.

[toxic vector]

afaict, doing nothing right now

the iphone is not at this time a thread border router, so currently doesnt appear it has any enabled functionality whatsoever and couldnt be used to commission a device on its own

[vapid shell]

Are they homekit or matter?

I’m guessing homekit if you can control them over Bluetooth?

[stuck valley]

Yeah homekit currently

but they need to see or join a thread network before I can update them to Matter

[vapid shell]

So if you have Bluetooth on HA you can pair them directly to Ha over Bluetooth, then migrate them to thread inside Ha.

[full canopy]

Also if you factory reset them? I don't remember having any issues

[vapid shell]

They’ll still be homekit not thread of course

But you’ll need a HomePod (or Apple TV) to migrate them to matter last I heard

You need a home hub, and your dongle is a thread border router, not a home hub.

[stuck valley]

I was wondering if they needed a home hub. The OTBR isn't enough then?

[vapid shell]

That seems to be the case yes

[full canopy]

Time to go Shopping!

Careful with the AppleTV's, I think only the ones with an Ethernet port are thread capable.

[stuck valley]

yeah, I saw that, I have one of the 1st gen 4k ATV's not sure I can be bother to get another one to be honest. 😄

[twin vine]

HomePod mini?

[delicate drum]

I thought the powers are suggesting not to try and run multiprotocol?

My thread right now is all based on an appletv4k and homepod mini, until thread releases the credential sharing and fabric merging eliminates the echo, eero, google, and apple thread meshes.

[inner torrent]

The devs have stated multiprotocol won't receive appreciable development in the near future

[toxic vector]

Yup. Frozen for now as not reliable and tbh, with how it works, I doubt it'll ever be reliable as needed

Closest we're gonna get to one dongle that does both I reckon will be a company releasing a dongle that just has 2 radios in it

[delicate drum]

thank you for the further explanation. 🙂

Im excited though, I finally got almost all my NL matter bulbs in HA now. just need to pair one more A19

[tiny carbon]

Unless SmartThings decides to make their devices able to mesh with other networks like Google and Apple

Speaking of which, my Samsung networks have disappeared and Google networks too

Something has gone really wrong with my thread network

Nanoleaf detects that there is a nest-pan network but not the nest Hub...or any other hub

Homeassistant doesn't see the nest Hub either, only apple and Skyconnect

[tiny carbon]

And biggest size

[young vault]

Do you think there is a security risk involved with using the old nanoleaf thread bulbs?

[twin vine]

No

Not yet at least that we know of

[twin vine]

What firmware version are they on? Fuchsia 16.xxx?

[tiny carbon]

Yeah

'Old' bulbs? 🤔

The weird thing is that none of them pick up the Samsung hubs either

All on same WiFi network

[inner torrent]

First Gen NL bulbs were homekit/thread only, no matter

[young vault]

Yea there are possible attacks that involve rogue commissioner devices.

surely there's a way to get the TBR to simply refuse new devices.

[tiny carbon]

And is there anything wrong with the 16.x update?

[twin vine]

No, im just making sure you are on the newest FW as that is super odd for the thread radio to almost it seems turn off entirely

do you know if they are broadcasting anything through Mdns?

[full canopy]

I think somehow when I added the Google Nests a while back, the Thread credentials were stored in my keychain or something. Now even with the Google Nest hubs removed from the network, I have some Apple TV's just causlaly hanging out in the Google thread network, while others are still in the Apple network. Even worse, I've given them a couple of reboots etc, but they won't come back to my main network! At one point I even had the Google Nest hubs in a completely different network, they couldn't do anything except access the itnernet. AND STILL devices were hanging around in the stupid NEST-PAN netowrk! 😮 --> https://community.home-assistant.io/t/how-to-configure-preferred-thread-network/542274/88?u=veldkornet

[full canopy]

Also, can someone explain what the "Use Router for Android + iOS Credentials" actually does?

[steady forge]

you'll need to delete Data for Google Play Services to get rid of saved thread credentials on Android

[vapid shell]

Literally no

When you use some Android/iOS APIs for managing thread stuff (credentials, hence the name of the setting) you have to provide a border router id. It has to be a valid one. And you have to provide the same one every time, otherwise they might not work.

But the APIs don’t tell you why it’s needed or what it’s used for, how to change it for a different one, etc

And without knowing this stuff.. (a) It’s quite possible that users changing it to try and debug stuff is harmful for their thread network and (b) we can’t automate it

[sick swan]

Yes, I am not aware of another method 😢

[sick swan]

So I tried that, and it seems at least the current Android App immeaditly makes it a BR again. I then tried deleting all App data and uninstalling the App, but the App just won't forget the Thread credentials, and on adding the Nanoleaf Lines it immeaditly gets to be a Thread border router again 😢

I managed to get it working by deleting my Home in the App. It seems the Thread credentials are associated with the Home (and synced to the cloud, since even after deleting App data + uninstalling the App, the App remembered the credentials again after installing).

Once I had created a new Home, the App tried to read Thread credentails from Android (I got the permission for network access request). With declining that one I have now Nanoleaf Lines which are not a BR 🎉 😅

[sick swan]

Aaaaand now it just joined, without me asking anything 😢 😠

I did add other bulbs, but I am certain I did not confirm/touch anyting Lines related

[spice imp]

at least you can delete homes on android 😅

https://developers.home.google.com/codelabs/thread-sharing-apis#2

idk if that explanaition is still up to date though.

[full canopy]

I would be really grateful if the HA mobile app could manage the thread networks. Like, really grateful.

I somehow managed to get two into my keychain (thanks Google Nest Hubs), and now I have no idea how to delete the one… and my border routers now go on “walk-about” between the two networks 😭

At least my actual thread devices seem to be staying on the one I set them to, but it doesn’t help that the border router setup keeps changing.

[vapid shell]

I think it’s already doing all it can

Vendor api limitations

[young vault]

Yea I forgot that it's homekit over thread and not some hacky rinky dink application layer. Homekit's probably safe as long as we keep updating firmware through the nanoleaf app

[toxic vector]

writes note to self, stick to OTBR's

[tiny carbon]

I don't know if Google was but err, it's back again? And now all my devices work too.

That was weird and never happened before

[visual quail]

Hey team, has anyone encountered problems connecting nanoleaf matter bulbs to home assistant? It's connected to my openthread border router but for some reason not all lights are connecting to home assistant, any suggestion with router settings...etc are appreciated 😀

[slender hornet]

I'd suggest you go to #matter-archived and search for Nanoleaf.

[vapid shell]

I’d also get a cup of tea first. There is a lot to read.

[polar thunder]

i think a stiff drink is more appropriate

[toxic vector]

comfy slippers, warm dressing gown and your favourite armchair also required

anything to lessen your pending discomfort

The fact my one is working seems to be the odd one out, and thats likely because there is only one

[visual quail]

Hey Team, I have an otbr running on the raspberry pi, I've recently connected my nanoleaf lights to the thread network, there are a few things I noticed when trying to connect/after connecting the lights to the thread network:

1. nanoleaf wants to connect to a specific thread network, it's own defined network with the name, channel, etc. I spent hours trying to figure out why it wouldn't connect, at the end I just changed my network to the exact specifications that the bulbs wanted to connect to...and it finally connected

2. After a successful connection, everytime I refresh the topology, the number of lights connected keep changing for some reason, literally everytime I click the refresh button, however when I run the 'router list' command in the ot-ctl, the connections seem to be stable and always shows up.

I'm not sure if this is normal behaviour or not, furthermore are there any specific settings that I should apply on my router to solidify my otbr? I'm running a fairly new router form asus - ax6000. Open to suggestions,

Thanks in advance 🙂

[steady forge]

Solidifying a thread network consisting of Nanoleaf devices is gonna be near impossible

[visual quail]

Hahaha, yeah I realised 😅

Is there a beta program I can sign up to with openthread?

[marble perch]

on the nanoleaf discord, https://discord.com/channels/837773208027529287/1184371187464290344 is the discussion channel for their beta firmwares and has a pin post with instructions for getting the beta. Note that they're still in active development trying to work out some issues; the beta firmware may or may not help your specific case.

it seems like most of the stability issues there are with the bulbs and not OTBR, i don't know if there's any beta stuff for OTBR. If you're sufficiently technical you might be able to build it yourself from a newer code revision :/

[honest pasture]

Thread newbie here. I just received my Skyconnect and followed all the steps to provision it as an OpenThread border router on my (preferred) Apple thread network. Everything appears to be set up correctly, and now I have an Eve smart plug that I have enabled thread on which reports in HA that its thread status is "Router" after briefly saying "child". This feels like a silly question, but how would I know if it's actually communicating via thread, and how can I tell what thread network it's on? Is there somewhere that I should be able to see thread-connected devices listed as such? I was already able to connect to the plug via wifi (added to HA via the Homekit Device integration) before installing and enabling all the thread stuff.

[twin vine]

The OTBR-add on exposes a web gui on port 8080 iirc, it’s not the most stable but you can get some super basic information

[vapid shell]

For HomeKit device, if it’s got a “provision preferred thread network” button it’s connected by Bluetooth. If it’s not, it’s thread.

Or the other clue is if you download a diagnostic json file and can see the magic word “coap”.

[full canopy]

In the Eve App and in HomeAssistant you can see the name of the Thread network that the device is using

[bronze fog]

silly question..how do I get to that? I tried HTTP and HTTPS and it doesn't connect

[twin vine]

at the bottem of the add on it should have the network area

the i just go to http://homeassistant.local:8080/

[bronze fog]

8080 doesn't respond

[twin vine]

what does your OTBR add-on show in network settings?

[bronze fog]

I don't know where to find that info

[twin vine]

configuration settings of you add-on

of the open-thread border router add-on

wait are you running HAOS?

[bronze fog]

HAOS yes of course

[twin vine]

yeah, so just make sure the port is exposed correctly and your fine

you have to type in 8080 in the web port iirc

[bronze fog]

well it's not responding for me

[twin vine]

you are def doing something wrong then 😅

lets see what your conifg looks like of the OTBR add-on

[bronze fog]

no I'm good thx..not going to bother with OTBR tonight

[twin vine]

sure thing dude

[bronze fog]

I'm burnt out on thread/matter breaking daily these days

[twin vine]

fair

[peak ocean]

Is there a yaml guide somewhere if I want to setup an action to say, set a specific matter device's brightness to 80% or something?

Also, I think I know why smort rotating dimmer switches are uh, less popular now :V

[peak ocean]

ah found it:
https://www.home-assistant.io/integrations/light/#service-lightturn_on

[spring bramble]

matter channel for matter related questions please, thanks.

[peak ocean]

Apologies!

[sick swan]

Yeah so what Poshy says, most likely you haven't exposed the port.

The Web interface feature is documented under Settings -> Add-ons -> OpenThread Border Router -> Documentation tab.

To make it accessible you have to expose both, the Web and REST API port Settings -> Add-ons -> OpenThread Border Router -> Configuration tab.

Caveat: If you have another add-on exposing that same port, you'll run into a port conflict. If that is the case, you should see it mentioned at startup in the log tab.

[vague shuttle]

anyone had any luck pairing eve motionblinds via thread?

i have a skyconnect in multiprotocol mode, plus a BLE dongle. When i initially turned on the blinds, they were discovered automatically. however after entering the code, it just took a while and eventually showed an unknown error. i restarted HA, reset the blinds completely a few times, and now they are no longer being discovered. when i manuall add a homekit device, it says that no unpaired devices were found... any idea?

[vapid shell]

Pairing failed but after the blinds thought it had worked

You’ll have to reset them

Likely a range of interference problem

Also some Bluetooth adapters barely work on Linux

[toxic vector]

and multiprotocol barely works

[vapid shell]

The pi Bluetooth has an effective range of about my shoe

[vague shuttle]

i guess this part isn't relevant yet, since i'm just trying to connect via BLE for now — didn't even get to the thread provisioning part yet

[vague shuttle]

did that for sure

[vague shuttle]

hm, i guess let me try to move the dongle a lot closer

[vapid shell]

Then either it didn’t work or it’s now out of range completely

[toxic vector]

moves said shoe about 100m away from the pi, HUZZAH RANGE EXTENSION

[vague shuttle]

with the dongle literally a meter away, still no luck 🙄

though i just saw that this thing should support matter over thread, which means in theory i should be able to connect it without homekit... right?

my girlfriend is coming home later, she has an iphone, so i guess i'll try to just pair it with the eve app, make sure the firmware is up to date, get the matter pairing code, and then try to get it into HA that way

hopefully i won't need an apple border router for even pairing it initially. 😐

[vapid shell]

It absolutely should work with home assistant as is, but speaking the homekit protocol not matter.

And without needing a HomePod or Apple device

It’s likely a problem with your Bluetooth on your pi or it’s not hard reset.

Pi Bluetooth locks up sometimes and needs power removing to fix. Realtek based dongles crash every few minutes.

if you upgrade to matter You will probably need a HomePod or Apple tv to set it up on an iPhone

It’s likely that they will think it’s your girlfriends and for use in the Apple ecosystem, and refuse to let you pair unless you have a home hub (HomePod or Apple tv).

Basically if they let you update it on an iPhone you might as well be bricking it, as it wont work with their ecosystem then. So I assume they stop you.

[vague shuttle]

looking at this: https://motionblinds.com/eve/upgrade-to-matter/

"While upgrading, a Matter Setup Code will be generated. This code will completely replace the HomeKit setup code. It's the only way to add your Eve Motionblinds if you ever reset it, and nobody but you has a copy."

It reads to me as if after resetting the shade, it can be paired with matter over thread just as if it were a normal matter device (as in not homekit over thread)

[vague shuttle]

really just cannot get it to work, idk. i've completely power cycled the host a few times now, it's definitely in range, and the bluetooth integration works (it auto discovers my iBeacon)

[vapid shell]

If you do the update procedure it becomes a matter device not a homekit device

[vague shuttle]

yes, that's good right?

after that i should be able to pair it via matter, no homekit / ble needed

[vapid shell]

sorry i've not been very clear

so you need iOS to do the firmware upgrade, right?

thats why you have to wait for gf?

so you'll /probably/ need her to have a homepod or appletv and be near it to finish the upgrade

[vague shuttle]

yep, exactly

[vague shuttle]

ugh probably... yeah

don't have one unfortunately

[vapid shell]

basically a home hub is a requirement for Apple's matter ecosystem. So its likely they'll test for one before commencing the upgrade, as otherwise they'd have to deal with people effectively bricking their devices (installing a firmware that wouldn't work for them)

[vague shuttle]

only being able to install the firmware update that enables matter support if you first pair it via homekit is pretty dumb. 🙄 lol

sigh i guess i'm gonna go pick up an apple tv then, been kinda wanting one anyway

[vapid shell]

it'll need to be signed in to her account (and iirc, they are kind of annoying if you don't have an iphone or ipad)

its worth trying anyway without fwiw, but if it doesn't work this is probably why.

iBeacon only requires bluetooth to be functional enough to receive BLE broadcasts

It's the BLE GATT protocol that linux sucks at

but given everything you've done i wonder if its the blind thats got stuck

will need GF to see if it still pairs with iOS

[vague shuttle]

i wonder this too, whether they're "in connection mode" is pretty hard to tell unfortauntely... followed the full reset instructions a few times but not 100% sure

will see if the eve app even finds them

she should be here in a few min

[vapid shell]

i said in #bluetooth-archived but just wondering if you have a non HAOS install and your bluetooth is set to passive scanning?

[vague shuttle]

@vapid shell back here now 🙂 so, interesting... after resetting the blinds a few times, it still kept failing to add them via the eve app with error "device is already part of another home". then, i unplugged the bluetooth dongle from my HA green, and tried again - and it worked now, i was able to pair the blinds via bluetooth to the app. It almost feels as if the device is still remembered by HA somehow after that one failed setup attempt and this was blocking the pairing somehow...? 🤔

upgrading the firmware now and seeing if i can reset & pair via HA right after.

it got discovered! but after entering the code, i now get an error "invalid flow specified"...

... aaaaand after closing out of the setup flow, the discovered device disappeared again. fml

[serene prawn]

@vague shuttle I converted your message into a file since it's above 15 lines :+1:

[vague shuttle]

  File "/usr/local/lib/python3.12/site-packages/aiocoap/util/asyncio/recvmsg.py", line 126, in sendmsg
    self.__sock.sendmsg((data,), ancdata, flags, address)
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'sendmsg'```

[vapid shell]

lol

so the aiocoap library spaffs errors when things go wrong

but the gist of it is that ipv6 address of the device isn't reachable

but if its trying coap at all, then it means it saw your device on thread at some point

the problem is zeroconf/mdns discoveries don't time out

is it still showing as pairable on the iphone at this point?

[vague shuttle]

no idea wth is going on now, right now i have the blinds discovered 3 times, twice as "Eve MotionBlinds 643B (Window Covering)", and once as "Eve (Window Covering)". Clicking "configure" on any results in a long spinner and eventually error "An unhandled error occurred while attempting to pair with this device. This may be a temporary failure or your device may not be supported currently: Eve MotionBlinds 643B (EA:CE:4E:AC:7C:B1) - EA:CE:4E:AC:7C:B1: Failed to connect after 10 attempt(s): No backend with an available connection slot that can reach address EA:CE:4E:AC:7C:B1 was found: The proxy/adapter is out of connection slots or the device is no longer reachable; Add additional proxies (https://esphome.github.io/bluetooth-proxies/) near this device"

[vague shuttle]

yes

[vapid shell]

ugh

so its getting discovered by thread and bluetooth

normally it'd be one or the other

thread should have priority

but you are seeing bluetooth errors in the UI

did it let you try the matter upgrade?

[vague shuttle]

nope. it let me upgrade the firmware, but as you suspected it won't let me start the matter migration unless there's an apple border router on the network

so i just unpaired the blinds again from the app, and right after they got discovered in HA but i got that "invalid flow" error

[vapid shell]

so when a device is discovered it creates a flow

and invalid flow means something was discovered, but by the time you clicked on it, it was gone

[vague shuttle]

i see

could it be related to the crappy BL radio then?

[vapid shell]

not 100% atm

to your knowledge, have you ever managed to pair it and click the "provision thread credentials" button?

trying to work out why you see thread errors

as well as bluetooth errors

[vague shuttle]

right now i can consistently get them to be discovered after performing the reset procedure. they always show up twice, as "Eve MotionBlinds 643B (Window Covering)", but i get this error after clicking on configure

[vague shuttle]

nope

this is also the first homekit over thread device i'm trying to pair

i have a few matter over thread devices that work fine

[vapid shell]

so it getting discovered twice shouldn't be possible as the device has an ID that looks like a MAC address that is used to deduplicate discoveries, even between different protocol variants.

taht device ID should change every reset

so im wondering if HA see's the old device ID become pairable again, then the device ID rolls over and thats where the 2nd one comes from

[vague shuttle]

in that case, one of them should work, right?

[vapid shell]

yep.

if both were invalid, then i don't know how that could happen

if you reboot HA after resetting the blind, does it find anything?

the other thing is #thread-archived message means that it got paired and put on thread by something

HomeKit (in HA) would only do that if you pressed a button, so you would know you'd done it

Apple would try to do it automatically, but only for an Apple TV or HomePod

[vague shuttle]

qq probably unrelated but the pair prompt in HA says "Enter your eight digit HomeKit pairing code (in the format XXX-XX-XXX) to use this accessory." but the code next to the HomeKit QR code on the device has 8 digits split into two lines

so i've just been entering it as 8 digits without dividers

[vapid shell]

thats fine

[vague shuttle]

aight

[vapid shell]

fun fact

its actually formatted XXX-XX-XXX in the encryption

so even with the new style labels, we have to insert the - in the right place

i wonder if resetting it is not clearing the thread network, and boots in bluetooth mode, then switches over to thread, turns bluetooth off

that could account for 2 non functional bluetooth discoveries

can you get an mdns browser for your phone (or your gfs)

and look for ._hap._udp.local

[vague shuttle]

hold on i think i'm getting somewhere

ooh

it just worked. somehow!

just randomly clicked configure on one of the discovered devices, and it prompted me for the code, and created the homekit device!

[vapid shell]

ok - look at the device page

whats the "Thread Status"?

Child?

Disabled?

[vague shuttle]

Disabled

[vapid shell]

ok

and you have a "Provision Thread Credentials" button?

[vague shuttle]

yep

should i click it

[vapid shell]

ok

[vague shuttle]

alright i clicked it

lol

[vapid shell]

lol

[vague shuttle]

it's back now and says thread status child

[vapid shell]

ok good

it'll now only connect by thread

if you are on 2023.3, the button you pressed should have vanished?

[vague shuttle]

yes

it's gone

[vapid shell]

good

[vague shuttle]

& everything seems to be working fine!

no idea what changed

tysm!

[vapid shell]

i think you hit some version of what i was describing but with an added race

that time you managed to get the right device before hitting a timeout

[vague shuttle]

hey @vapid shell me again^^ unfortunately after charging the blinds (which apparently disconnects them? i guess), they haven't reconnected. on HA, the HomeKit device just says "Failed setup, will retry", with no further information in the logs as far as I can tell... not sure what's going on there now

already restarted HA of course.

[vapid shell]

Can’t help right now but don’t do anything

Otherwise you’ll be back to square one

[vague shuttle]

👍

just one more piece of info, the blinds are somehow again being discovered as a new device

i'm pretty close to just buying an apple tv and migrating this goddamn thing to matter tbh 😄

[vapid shell]

Yeah I’ve never seen one self unpair

Battery powered eve stuff kinda sucks at unpairing if anything

(It normally looks like it’s worked but actually hasn’t and needs resetting)

[vague shuttle]

are you a contributor on any of these integrations and would it help you debug if I try to get this to work or anything? Because otherwise I'd just go and pick up an apple TV so I can migrate to matter right now

[vapid shell]

I’m the homekit maintainer

I also have a toddler that’s seen a spider

[vague shuttle]

i see, makes sense that you're so infinitely knowledgeable about this then 😄

[vapid shell]

Honestly if the homekit firmware is EOL then the most sensible thing is to get it onto matter

[vague shuttle]

yeah

i guess so

[vapid shell]

But make sure you aren’t going to be stuck with an Apple TV that only works when gf is over

[vague shuttle]

lolll guess i'm gonna have to buy an ipad too

thanks apple

[toxic vector]

I do wish they'd just sell all their devices with updated firmware already

[vague shuttle]

yeah totally, this situation is ridiculous. compatible with everything, but only after you upgrade it which you can only do with an apple thread network

by the way, i just clicked configure on the discovered blinds, and it successfully added them again. also successfully provisioned thread creds.

🤷‍♂️

will keep it like this for now and see if they drop out again

[vapid shell]

Very weird

[vague shuttle]

yeah what i don't understand is how they ended up disconnected & unpaired

i literally just plugged in & out the usb c to charge

didn't reset or anything

[vapid shell]

Was it still showing as unavailable in HA? And then another blind was discovered?

[vague shuttle]

yeah, exactly

set up the new blind, deleted the old broken one

[vapid shell]

So yeah definitely on the devices end that it broke

[vague shuttle]

right, if it got discovered again it means new device id, right?

[vapid shell]

Yep

[vague shuttle]

so weird

[vague shuttle]

After a few hours, same thing, unavailable again. 🤷 Migrating to matter tomorrow.

[vague shuttle]

just fyi, migrated the eve motionblinds to matter earlier, after getting an apple border router on the network. As part of the process, it generated a matter pairing code, and then performed a firmware upgrade. After that, it asked to re-add the blinds back to HomeKit via Matter. I simply dropped out here and was able to use the generated matter code to pair them to homeassistant directly. So far they've been 100% stable.

it made me wonder whether you could somehow trick the eve app to think that there's an apple thread border router around. because as far as I can tell that check is completely pointless if you're not trying to get the blinds back into the eve app after the migration.

also reached out to eve to ask them if they couldn't have SOME way to trigger this firmware upgrade that works without apple hardware... seems like a total no brainer

[royal grove]

They mentioned a few years ago an Android app that they would launch which would theoretically allow firmware upgrades without an apple TBR but there hasn't been a word about it since.

[keen mango]

Is it possible to connect HomeKit Thread devices to Home Assistant through HomeKit Device integration? As in the SkyConnect is the only TBR, no HomeKit.

[vapid shell]

Yes, for at least as long as the matter integration has existed.

Though in the case above the device kept forgetting the thread network credentials, so it’s got its own challenges.

[vapid shell]

Depends on whether they are checking for a home hub or just for a an Apple border router

If it needs to be a home hub probably not easily

If it’s just doing an mdns query then probably

[royal grove]

I was able to connect my nanoleaf home kit essential bulbs (pre matter) through Bluetooth and provision thread credentials in the device screen, but looking now I don't see that button anymore so idk if it was removed

[vapid shell]

It (provisioning to thread) only works over Bluetooth, so if it’s connected over thread it gets removed.

You can’t change thread networks without resetting and going via Bluetooth again so showing it was inviting a bug report

It very much still works

[royal grove]

Ah, I didn't know that

[twin vine]

you are able to change the thread network of the matter/thread bulbs if there is multiple thread networks, tho i dont think its intended on nanoleaf's behalf (if you are close to it AKA in ble range)

atleast you are in the latest testflight beta

[crude willow]

Yes you don't need a apple homepod for updating for eve motionblinds

But you need to ask me for a file 🙈

But I have to ask eve if I can still share it

They have made the check for a thread network to make sure that people don't upgrade without having a thread network

But I have shared a file with customers that have a Google border router or Samsung or what so ever. And then you can update.

[twin vine]

might be worth just having a public repo w/ the files

obv would need eve's approval

[crude willow]

We were thinking of having it behind a form that would allow you to download it.

But we first wanted to see how many people are asking for this

Until now I have seen just a few

Like max 5 that I know of

[twin vine]

Makes sense, have like a S/N check and then bamn the files

[crude willow]

Ooh no I don't even need to know that

But just checks like

Are you sure that you have a border router

Really?

Ok are you sure to do this.

Here you go

Don't come to us if it does not work anymore.

[twin vine]

i mean, most people with eve w/ thread would have an apple, so its every much the odd exception of people who somehow dont? or pick up an older gen product

[crude willow]

Quite a few people bought eve motionblinds without apple devices

[twin vine]

could just have a support link on the website somewhere, so when you google the issue, SEO does its magic and you get directed to that article

[crude willow]

Because it would have matter in the future(now)

Yeah for sure.

[worn plinth]

i'd very much like to update my eve products (specifically, the motion sensor to get the lux sensor working). i don't have any apple border routers and it seems like they will basically never make an android app. have a mac, so i can run the app, but can't do the update due to that check

[daring flare]

Hi there, I want to migrate smoothly from Zigbee to Matter/Thread. So I buy a Skyconnect USB key, and I struggle to make it work in multiprotocol. Then many people in many discussion says : don't do that.
So now the plan, is to have 2 USB key in the RPI 4 : one for Thread and one for Zigbee. Maybe a SONOFF ZBDongle-E for thread/matter, and I keep the Zigbee network on the Skyconnect (and Z2M to integrate this into HA).

Does someone experiment such a configuration ? Is it recommanded ?

[marble perch]

that would work fine, but there's no reason that your thread border router and home assistant have to be the same device. if you have any e.g. google, apple, amazon devices with builtin thread border routers, home assistant can use thread devices via those.

[daring flare]

Huuum ok. That is interesting. I have an old Apple HomePOD. Maybe it can act as Border Router. If I understand, a Thread device can pair to a Border Router and not only to a Coordinator (Zigbee vocabulary)

[toxic vector]

So in ZigBee, the coordinator is both in charge of the network management and also the point of communication with outside world

Thread splits that into 2 roles. The leader is in charge of the network, and is elected automatically (you don't ever have to worry about it)

A border router bridges thread networks with rest of your lan as thread is IPv6 based

[vapid shell]

It needs to be a HomePod mini or a HomePod 2. The original HomePod doesn’t have a thread radio sadly.

[toxic vector]

You can have multiple thread border routers in 1 mesh

I only have 1 myself on a small mesh right now. But if I had a second pi shoved somewhere with a second sonoff dongle shoved on it, I could add it as a border router to my existing mesh which could improve the networks reliability

But part of the flexibility of thread, as leaders are elected automatically, if your BR was the leader and went down, nah, another device will become the leader instead, and everything can use a 2nd or 3rd BR. Bit more powerful than ZigBee in this regard

[daring flare]

I have an old HomePod sadly

[toxic vector]

I've unfortunately had 3 crashes of the HA OTBR integration in as many days, so need to both look into that and may possibly slap another border router into the network soon

[daring flare]

I have also an IPad and it think to be possible to use it as Border Router

Will have a deeper look into that

[toxic vector]

iPad has no thread radio

So far 1 iPhone variant has a thread radio, but it isn't actually used yet

[daring flare]

"The iPad Pro, iPad Air, ATV4K and HomePod mini all support the eve Thread mesh, and the eve smart plugs work just fine when any of these devices are in the Connected hub position."

IPad pro seems to do the trick.

But I guess IPad is not the best concentrator because it can be moved, turned off, ...

[daring flare]

Ok so I don't have any Border router already in my house. I guess having a dual USB key in the best solution. I will not buy a Google or Apple TV or whatever if a USB key at 30 $ will do the same.

[marble perch]

I'm a really crazy person, so I bought the Espressif thread border router devkit and built my own firmware for it ;)

(well, built their sample code, i haven't modified it... yet)

[daring flare]

This ? https://openthread.io/guides/border-router/espressif-esp32

[marble perch]

yeah.

(with the optional ethernet add-on card)

[daring flare]

I have got a silly question: can a Sonoff ZBDongle-E USB card act as a border router but not connected to the RPI in which HA is running ? If a flash the firmware with thread support and put it into a USB power socket, will it work as a border router ? Sorry if it is a dumb question

The idea is to have a separate border router near the equipement and not having to use one USB port of my RPI (which already have an SSD and the Skyconnect key)

[toxic vector]

No

[inner torrent]

I'd endorse the espressif board that @marble perch mentioned. It's, cheap and easy to setup. Just put it in a hobby box after the initial setup and put it where you need it

[marble perch]

i wouldn't say it's that easy to set up, you will have to build the firmware yourself. and atm if you want to use it with wifi rather than ethernet, and come back up after losing power, you need to hardcode wifi credentials into the firmware :/

(it does at least persist the settings for the thread network once they're set up via otbr apis or the cli)

it would be an interesting target for a prebuilt firmware targeted at HA users which adds some wifi network provisioning setup (via BLE?) and maybe an HA addon which provides OTA firmware updates :)

[inner torrent]

I mean it's a step by step process. It requires some marginal programming ability but the dev kit is pretty easy to configure -- the docs lay it out pretty well

The wifi thing didn't bother me much cause I have an IoT vlan but yeah

There's some work going on regarding thread in esphome but I don't think it's with the s3-h2

[marble perch]

yeah, iirc the esphome work is mostly about being able to build standalone devices that function as sensors or controls or whatever and communicate over thread instead of wifi/ble

[toxic vector]

at moment not quite even that

you can use the H2 for offline only

[marble perch]

well, the h2 doesn't have a wifi radio at all :) do they not do ble?

[toxic vector]

some point it'd be nice to see it doing esphome over thread though

Dunno if ble in esphome is working on H2's but the capabilities of esphome and ble while not to be snuffed at, arent quite there for making an entire smart device pairable with HA

[marble perch]

esphome protocol does actually look like a pretty good fit for using directly over thread from what i've read of it.

[toxic vector]

someone did a demo already with a forked esphome on nrf52840 using thread

[marble perch]

replace the mDNS stuff with SRP so the border router takes care of advertising and responding, and everything else should "just work"

[inner torrent]

https://github.com/esphome/feature-requests/issues/1397

If you want to follow

[sick swan]

I actually ordered one of these as well, but it did not arrive so far 😢

lool, seems the AliExprss store failed to ship 🙈 I got a 2$ coupon 🎉

Ok, second try 🤞

Running ESPHome on ESP's is something I was thinking about since quite a while 😅 I think IPv6 support should be generally be there now, that was initially the problem. Now, besides the specific board support, it is probably really Thread configuration/initialization which is missing. And yeah, SRP/mDNS if we go that far. It all sounds very doable, probably just a few lines of code... 🤔

[inner torrent]

probably just a few lines of code

Famous last words 🙈

[spring bramble]

Thread support for ESPHome (as alternate transport to wifi or ethernet) would be really amazing.
You could potentially even have the ESPHome protobuf-based API on top of thread.

ESPHome based/like Matter devices would be even cooler ;-).

[fair drum]

I'm (finally) starting to mess with Thread in Home Assistant, and I'm running into something interesting. I notice the note from the documentation (https://www.home-assistant.io/integrations/thread/#case-1-making-home-assistant-your-first-thread-network) that says that "The preferred network function isn’t completely implemented yet. In particular, when adding Matter devices through the companion apps, the preferred network of the mobile device is being used" Is there any way to tst if the Open Thread Border Router provided by multi-pan with the Yellow is actually working? How do we make a mobile device prefer that network?

[marble perch]

i think the add-on provides a way to make the OTBR's web api publicly accessible? If you do that, you can fetch /topology from its webserver and it'll dump a list of everything it sees connected to the thread network it's on.

[fair drum]

Ok I can try that. But I suppose there's no way to force a device to use the Yellow's network? When I add a Matter over Thread device to HA with my mobile device, it always uses a different network

[marble perch]

not at the moment. ha is currently relying on the matter stack on your phone to provision the thread credentials.

fwiw, the only thread network i have is an openthread border router, and in that case android will use it via credentials provided from the HA app

but it sounds like android will always prefer to use a thread network running off google hardware if there is one

it is possible to connect multiple border routers to the same thread network.

[fair drum]

Yeah, my android is using my Nest network. I wonder if there's a way to disable that - I'll have to look into it. I don't actually care which thread network is used, but for testing purposes I need to know that the OTBR actually works

[twin vine]

Why not merge the networks?

I mean, you are on multi-pan which is not recommended. So hard to know if your future issues are going to be related to that, or a actual thread issue

[fair drum]

How do we do that?

[fair drum]

Yeah I plan to have a dedicated thread radio in the future

[twin vine]

What border routers you got? Just the HA yellow and a few google nest devices?

And you have the android companion app, or IOS?

[fair drum]

Yellow, Nest, Smarttings and HomePod mini. I have both apps, but mainly use Android

[marble perch]

huh, so you have at least 3 thread networks then :/

[twin vine]

rigihtio, so i have no idea about smartthings, does it support thread 1.3?

the others is pretty simple

[marble perch]

also, do you want to use the ha yellow's built-in radio for zigbee, or are you only doing thread?

[twin vine]

multipan allows you to use both, but its buggy as

[marble perch]

(if you do want zigbee, i'd recommend switching to the zigbee-only firmware; you have other border routers to handle thread)

[twin vine]

yeah, i would use multipan to sync it to a single network, and then just run zigbee only

assuming your devices run thread 1.3, they will just auto-join the thread network

[marble perch]

apparently the trick for getting apple and google devices to join the same thread network is to set up the apple device first, then set up the google device using the ios app, so it can grab the thread credentials from apple?

[fair drum]

Yeah and what's word is that I can only import credentials did the Nest network

[twin vine]

yep. thats fine

so what you wanna do for google devices

[fair drum]

No really sure

[twin vine]

factory reset the nest devices, unplug all but one, set it up via ios and it should stick to the myhome netwrok

[fair drum]

Yellow is my test machine, so in future I will have dedicated radio

[twin vine]

oh wait its a wifi point

[marble perch]

hmm, factory resetting your network router sounds like it would be a painful way to merge thread networks :(

[twin vine]

yeah, i thought it was a nest display device until i read what it was.... hmmm

i dont think those wifi points run fuchsia (or even thread 1.3), so not sure if the merging would work

[fair drum]

Any way to merge my OTBR with Nest? Just the two?

[twin vine]

i think you gotta make it the perfered network

[fair drum]

Also totally fine with ditching my Nest Wi-Fi haha

So make Nest preferred, then merge them?

[twin vine]

assuming your OTBR fimrware is running and you can see it in that thread panel, iirc you have to make the nest preferred and then join it. you will have to do it from the android app?

i know a few people here have done it, just cant exactly remember how its done

im pretty sure you have to do it from the android app tho

[fair drum]

I'll try that!

[fair drum]

Got it. Just had to change the Yellow's zigbee/thread channel from 11 to 22 match the Nest thread network

Thanks @twin vine and @marble perch for your insights!

[twin vine]

Ah nice work! Knew it was something simple just couldn’t remember it 🤣

[worn plinth]

But you need to ask me for a file 🙈

[sick swan]

Just a heads up: Most folks started to see issues (crashes) of the firmware as soon as both sides of the Multiprotocol got active. YMMV. Dedicated radios for Zigbee/Thread is the safer approach.

[keen mango]

I just ordered a Conbee III to go alongside my SkyConnect. I'll use one for Thread and the other for Zigbee. Will also take the opportunity to move from ZHA to Z2M. Hopefully this will make things more stable.

I will say Multiprotocol has been mostly fine other than the January firmware (this has since been fixed). I had other issues but I don't think those were related to Multiprotocol.

[verbal gale]

After a couple days of intermittent connection with my Nanoleaf Essentials, I have discovered that by some accident the Shapes that I own were turned into Border Routers. Sigh, time to factory reset 😦

[keen mango]

The Shapes are supposed to be TBR and it shouldn't cause any problems.

[verbal gale]

That has not been my experience. Like I said, the reason I knew to check was because my fleet of bulbs suddenly started having issues

[verbal gale]

I have 4 HomePod Minis and a hardwired ATV 4K, so the thread coverage is more than adequite on just Apple devices, which (by all accounts) have the optimal Thread code

100% anecdotal, though. So I could be wrong.

[serene prawn]

@daring flare I converted your message into a file since it's above 15 lines :+1:

[daring flare]

Sorry, I have installed the wrong firmware. 😓

[digital salmon]

What do you mean by ‘the optimal Thread code‘?

[digital salmon]

@sick swan tried its best to disable the TBR function of his Nanoleaf Lines:

#thread-archived message

But it joined the Thread network again, without doing anything:

#thread-archived message

Maybe he found a solution. I do not own Nanoleaf TBRs.

[verbal gale]

Maybe things have changed since I last checked, but @vapid shell can speak with more authority on the more robust solutions that Apple TBRs have in navigating disconnections.

[digital salmon]

Apple TBRs use TREL, what Nanoleaf doesn’t do at the moment. Shouldn’t be a problem, but who knows.

[digital salmon]

I did not understand what you meant by optimal Thread code… I stell so not understand it. 😉

[daring flare]

Hrello, I cannot pair any Thread / Matter to my new Thread network. I use the Sonoff zdongle-e flashed with this firmware: https://github.com/darkxst/silabs-firmware-builder/blob/main/firmware_builds/zbdonglee/ot-rcp-v2.4.1.0-zbdonglee-460800.gbl.
OTBR is also installed and seems to be working (logs are fined).
Configuration is the following:

device: >-
  /dev/serial/by-id/usb-ITEAD_SONOFF_Zigbee_3.0_USB_Dongle_Plus_V2_20240123080250-if00
baudrate: "460800"
flow_control: false
autoflash_firmware: false
otbr_log_level: notice
firewall: false
nat64: false

I tried with Nanoleaf Essentials Bulb and the new Niki V4 PRO. The pairing window appears each time I start one device. I flash the QRCode and the result is always the same: "No border router found. You need a Border Router".

Any help ?

[serene prawn]

@daring flare I converted your message into a file since it's above 15 lines :+1:

[viscid sandal]

Guys just got back into HA, saw that the sky connect chip could do Thread and zigbee , but now it seems they suggest keeping separate chips now. Anyway should I just stick with zigbee or is there a use case for thread at this point?

[twin vine]

There is use for thread, but it seems you don’t need it, otherwise you would know 😛

[viscid sandal]

Tbh I’m not sure we need any of this. But we like it. What are the appeals of it vs zigbee?

[marble perch]

it's a newer protocol, expected to be used for more devices going forward, particularly devices using matter (but also apple homekit and other proprietary protocols)

has some neat features, like being able to have a single thread mesh connect to your network at multiple points for redundancy, instead of having only a single coordinator like zigbee - and has the ability for multiple vendor devices using different protocols to operate as a single mesh network instead of separate ones.

[daring flare]

Does someone have a functional Thread / Matter network with SONOFF zdongle-e + RCP ot-rcp firmware and Open Thread Border Router addon ?

[daring flare]

Ok. That is working fine with MultiPAN RCP - Zigbee + Thread for Silabs Multiprotocol Addon. I guess there is something weird with the thread only ot-rcp firmware.

[twin vine]

What was happening to it?

Within the logs?

[daring flare]

You have the log just above if you want:

otbr-agent[167]: 00:00:00.067 [W] Platform------: Failed to update ipsets: Failed
otbr-agent[167]: 00:00:00.073 [N] Mle-----------: Role disabled -> detached
otbr-agent[167]: 00:00:00.123 [N] Platform------: [netif] Changing interface state to up.
otbr-agent[167]: 00:00:00.156 [W] Platform------: [netif] Failed to process request#2: No such process
otbr-agent[167]: 00:00:00.157 [W] Platform------: [netif] ADD [U] fe80:0:0:0:f89d:d8c5:ae4d:566d failed (InvalidArgs)
otbr-agent[167]: 00:00:00.157 [W] Platform------: [netif] Failed to process event, error:InvalidArgs
otbr-agent[167]: 00:00:00.158 [W] Platform------: [netif] ADD [U] fda6:d78c:e856:ac0:dc6f:30cb:1060:a388 failed (InvalidArgs)
otbr-agent[167]: 00:00:00.159 [W] Platform------: [netif] Failed to process event, error:InvalidArgs
otbr-agent[167]: 00:00:00.159 [W] Platform------: [netif] ADD [U] fda6:d78c:e856:ac0:0:ff:fe00:b800 failed (InvalidArgs)
otbr-agent[167]: 00:00:00.159 [W] Platform------: [netif] Failed to process event, error:InvalidArgs
otbr-agent[167]: 00:00:00.160 [W] Platform------: [netif] Failed to process request#6: No such process

Seems similar to https://github.com/home-assistant/addons/issues/3447
or this one: https://github.com/home-assistant/addons/issues/3402

[daring flare]

With MultiPAN RCP and Silbas Multiprotocol Add on it have work 1 hour (the time to pair 3 Nanoleaf bulb). Then all is now unavailable. I have many errors in the Silabs logs:

otbr-agent[304]: 00:05:57.072 [N] MeshForwarder-: Dropping rx frag frame, error:Drop, len:88, src:0x9801, dst:0x1c00, tag:6999, offset:904, dglen:1084, sec:yes
otbr-agent[304]: 00:05:57.097 [N] MeshForwarder-: Dropping rx frag frame, error:Drop, len:92, src:0x9801, dst:0x1c00, tag:6999, offset:992, dglen:1084, sec:yes
otbr-agent[304]: 00:05:59.609 [N] MeshForwarder-: Dropping (reassembly queue) IPv6 UDP msg, len:1084, chksum:6cf8, ecn:no, sec:yes, error:ReassemblyTimeout, prio:normal, rss:-68.125
otbr-agent[304]: 00:05:59.609 [N] MeshForwarder-:     src:[fddd:1a4c:1fa6:1:4c28:d94a:e240:2e6]:5540
otbr-agent[304]: 00:05:59.609 [N] MeshForwarder-:     dst:[fddd:1a4c:1fa6:1:4341:c6a:f082:cf34]:56630
otbr-agent[304]: 00:05:59.610 [N] MeshForwarder-: Dropping IPv6 UDP msg, len:214, chksum:4991, ecn:no, sec:yes, error:AddressQuery, prio:low
...

A hard reboot doesn't solve anything. I'm very disappointed about thread / matter in HA. There seems to get no solution

[inner torrent]

Have you read the documentation and performed any basic troubleshooting before blaming HA for your issues? Are you aware that NL bulbs are notoriously unstable?

[daring flare]

Sorry, if I could have hurt, it really wasn't my intention and I understand that my message could have hurt. I've been trying to get Thread / matter to work on HA first with Skyconnect and Multiprotocol for 3 weeks. Then I bought a SONOFF zdongle-e to separate the channels. And I can't get through it. I had to go to all the forums on the subject. I can see that I am not the only one suffering. No, I didn't know Nanoleafs were unstable. Sorry again.

[inner torrent]

Theres some pinned posts in #matter-archived that might help you triage your setup. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

You'll need to check that you have the right devices, flat VLAN, etc. after that check with a mDNS browser (specific tool varies by platform) to see if your BR is giving off a mDNS entry for meshcop

[patent nymph]

@rbroker

[daring flare]

Theres some pinned posts in ⁠matter that might help you triage your setup
Very good pined articles. Thank you for this. I could save me days if I read it before - especially multiprotocol with Skyconnect. I've got something working now, with SONOFF zdongle, multiprotocol, some Nanoleaf devices and a Nuki V4. My network is too weak so I loose the connectivity, but Border router seems working now.
When I put it into debug log, it began to works, curriously. I will try to put it into Notice log level.

[twin vine]

My network is too weak so I loose the connectivity

is this verified through the OTBR web gui? or just educated assumptions? just curious if it is that, or nanoleaf being nanoleaf

[ionic plaza]

Is that a strict thing for Thread 1.3? I just took a look at my new SmartThings Station, its TBR is on v1.3, so it should automatically join the existing one? Tuya also has one on v1.3, but it never merges with others (Skyconnect plus HomePod)

[twin vine]

i had to factory reset

[digital salmon]

@daring flare Are you using the latest Nanoleaf beta or the currently general available firmware? By the way… if you want to talk about Nanoleaf, we have a thread for this:

#1204570119091789855 message

[ionic plaza]

I am also curious about the experience with NL's tbrs like shapes/elements. I plan to get some. I heard tbr feature is enabled overseas

[twin vine]

im in australia and mine is a BR

is it not in every country?

[ionic plaza]

everywhere except chinese mainland I think

its home market lol

[twin vine]

huh right, the more you know

[ionic plaza]

do they join your HA thread network? you have shapes right?

[twin vine]

yeah, i got it to join the apple thread network

well, it does by default iirc

[ionic plaza]

Oh I see, will try this when I got some, thx

[twin vine]

If you set it up on iOS, and though the Nanoleaf app it should just join

[ionic plaza]

just like essentials and other HK-over-thread devices I assume

[twin vine]

Yep

[daring flare]

It is an assumption for now. The Nanoleaf near the USB key is always up. Those which are 5 meters away disconnect regularly. I certainly don't have an optimal spatial installation. I will add some routers to see if it is better.
I would love to have an OTBR Web web gui. I will check how to install that. I remember a scary warning about this.

[twin vine]

You run the OTBR add-on on HA?

[ionic plaza]

I heard a theory from my friend -- HK-over-thread (extender) devices could have malfunction behavior, refusing to forward information from end devices. And the end devices then can not find a new router path, becoming unavailable. Old eve/Wemo may have such issue.

[vapid shell]

A theory I heard is that homekit over thread predates DNS-SD. So it does its own mdns and generates a lot of udp broadcasts.

But it also makes sense that it would have problems. Not everyone is shipping homekit firmware updates as quick as they are matter.

In some cases they are user older and less capable SOCs as well.

[tired juniper]

Anyone using the eve motionblind motor via thread?

[tough prairie]

Something strange is going on here. All of my devices are connected to my Apple thread network. After lots of fiddling around I also managed to add the HA OTBR to the same thread network and then after a reset even the Google nest hub joined the happy thread family. The thread panel showed that all 3 BR belong to the same "MyHome42" Apple network.
Now I upgraded to 2024.3.1 and all of a sudden the thread panel tells me that all 3 BRs belong to the "NEST-PAN" thingy from Google. And my preferred MyHome42 is empty.

I have my doubts that all devices all of sudden joined a different thread network?

Looking at the debug information in the matter devices, I see a mixture of the Apple and Google networks

[crude willow]

What do you want to know ?

I develop them

[tired juniper]

Just wanted to know how reliable they are and do they report battery level and position back to the controller when moved via the manual on blind controls?

Thanks

I got a nest hub max so have a border router but these will be my first matter thread devices

[spice imp]

Mine are working great, battery level reporting is also good. Accuracy of position is also working good for me.

And they also report back the position if i change the position via the cord attatched to them, if that is what you mean.

[tired juniper]

Yes that's what I was after!

How fast do they respond and is there a way to group them via matter like zigbee groups or just a cover group in HA?

[crude willow]

@tired juniper this is the best answer what @spice imp says. Ofcourse I would say it is reliable. But it ofcourse also depends on your thread network

motor will report the position back by any change

[tired juniper]

Currently no thread network only zigbee

[crude willow]

Depending on range you might need some routers

[tired juniper]

First device be about 15m from thread router

[crude willow]

I just wanted to check up here what people recommend here regarding range.

[tired juniper]

Zigbee managed to go from one side of house to other without any devices between when I started rolling it out in new hpuse so hoping thread will be OK if not will get a few thread smart sockets and hide around

[crude willow]

Because I get this question quite often. But the range is hard to say. I think 15m could be difficult depending on building structure.

[tired juniper]

If I had 2 google hubs that have thread will they work together or form 2 different networks?

[tired juniper]

I've been pretty surprised by zigbee was showing a guy at my old work place it to help him set up device was in a factory with loads of metal everywhere worked fine for 35m for a smart button to bulb

[vapid shell]

If they are both connected to the same google account they should form a single network.

They don’t have TREL yet so they would need to be in thread range of each other

[tired juniper]

OK that's my back up plan then a gen 2 hub in bedroom for blind if the existing one downstairs doesn't reach

[tired juniper]

Oh ok what's trel

[vapid shell]

It’s something that let’s border routers treat Ethernet and WiFi as part of the thread mesh

It can help stop partitioning when your network is weak

[tired juniper]

Ah k is that on Google to implement or HA?

[vapid shell]

Google

[tired juniper]

If google I think we could be waiting for ever

[vapid shell]

We have seen some devices sporadically turning it on and off

So it’s supported but not rolled out

In the mean time it will work you just might need more routing devices to keep things stable

[tired juniper]

It's not too far so hopefully it won't be an issue

[vapid shell]

Just to check - you have an android phone?

[tired juniper]

So if I had 2 google devices and say a thread smart plug between all 3 will mesh? So could go google hub to plug to google hub?

[tired juniper]

Yep android FTW

[vapid shell]

And it’s actual google spy version and not the freedom version?

The freedoooom builds are missing google play framework files needed for provisioning stuff to the thread network

[tired juniper]

Google is samsung

I've set up thread and matter if I go to add a device brings me to the scan qr code bit

[vapid shell]

Ok thats probably ok

[tired juniper]

Think I'm only gonna find out if range is OK by buying a thread device and trying it

[vapid shell]

If this is your first thread device the other thing to say is to read the pinned posts in #matter-archived

[tired juniper]

I do need a second google hub but if tje range isn't good enough to reach the bedroom it isn't gonna solve it without trel then

[vapid shell]

Make sure you have no VLANs or you are aware of the problems of VLANs and how to mitigate them

[tired juniper]

Yea no vlans

[vapid shell]

Make sure you are running HAOS or you have a need for a new hobby debugging ipv6

[tired juniper]

Yea haos

Any thread uk smart plugs that support energy monitoring? I could replace one of my zigbee ones to help the network then

[vapid shell]

Eve Energy

Make sure you get Matter and not HomeKit

Both work with HA but upgrading homekit to matter without iOS is .. impossible without help from eve support

[tired juniper]

Jesus that things big

Won't fit on my power strip :/

Onvis Matter Smart Plug, Thread Smart Socket Works with Apple HomeKit, Alexa, Google Home, SmartThings, Control & Automate Appliances, Schedule & Timer, Fast Responsive, 13A/250V (2) https://amzn.eu/d/fTz5OSc

Maybe dot these 2 around in areas I won't see

Bit of a pain starting a new mesh lol only just finished my z wave mesh

[tired juniper]

Will I need to pair them close to the hub as they use Bluetooth for set up?

Then install the blind where it will go?

Will the eve app still work via bluetooth for changing settings like the end position?

Sorry for question they are just expensive so want to be 100% sure

[crude willow]

No Bluetooth. Only for setting up the blind with your thread network.

But you can set end limits on the blind. I've made sure you can do everything without the eve app. So you can change speeds. Set end limits. Only adaptive shading isnt possible

And the eve app is only available for apple. So you won't be able to use it @tired juniper

[tired juniper]

K I only automate using HA anyway I just need to be able to control and set up only

Need to measure the window when I get home from work and order one to test. but these sound like they are exactly what I'm after if only they were zigbee or zwave 😅

[tired juniper]

What about firmware updates?

[crude willow]

Through the platforms

[tired juniper]

OK cheers for help!

Any plans to group blinds and have them act as one for stuff like bay windows that require 3 blinds for one window?

[toxic vector]

Matter integration certainly doesn't do grouping yet but it's on the roadmap

Will be good when it does arrive as with the way matter groups work and thread works, it should be far less chatty/more reliable

[polar thunder]

i have an eve motion sensor that went unavailable in the middle of the night and hasn't shown up since. it's connected by a homepod. both home assistant and homekit are matter controllers and the eve motion still reports back to homekit.

i can still see the homepod thread network in my home assistant settings, not really sure what to do from here

[polar thunder]

ok nvm unplugging the homepod got it going again

[still quiver]

Hi, do eve matter thread plugs show energy consumption in HA?

[twin vine]

Yes

They are the only ones currently (custom cluster)

[tired juniper]

Thought matter was meant to stop the custom cluster nonsense.

[crude willow]

energy consumption is not implemented yet in matter. but they have used the standard that will be used for energy.

So once it is in matter it will be there immediately

and custom stuff is also still possible

[tired juniper]

Found an issue with my eve motionblind roll out some of my bay blinds are only 54cm wide so too small 😦

[crude willow]

Just wait a few months 🙂

We might have a new motor that will fit

[daring flare]

Hi there, does anyone know if it is normal to have two thread network with same PAN Id and channel but different Hardware address ? In the OTBR WEb UI, I see this:
No. Network Name Extended PAN ID PAN ID channel Hardware Address Action
0 0x5D9B 15 66947xxxxx09 JOIN
1 0x5D9B 15 CAE8xxxxx64 JOIN

When I look in Thread integration, I only see that :
ha-thread-5d9b
Network name: ha-thread-5d9b
Channel: 15
Dataset id: 01HSxxxxxx3J2
Pan id: 5d9b
Extended Pan id: d87xxxxb3b

So there is another PAN Id in the running Thread network.

[tired juniper]

You keep making my day

[tired juniper]

Will only be an issue in my living room will fit everywhere else so will begin roll out first in bedroom whilst I wait for new motor.

Can I ask any info on new motor? Thread?

[sick swan]

Afaik, that is just multiple devices which are on that network, annoucing that network. I see 4 with the same PAN ID

[tired juniper]

Got a quick question about thread networks, currently I'm going to use my Google hubs for the border router but add devices via HA if in future I replaced those hubs with dedicated stick direct to HA would the network migrate or id have to repair everything?

[twin vine]

if they are the same channel, it will auto merge

but it can be a bit flaky at the moment

[tired juniper]

OK thanks

Anyone know of any thread curtain motors and tracks that work on battery?

[crude willow]

motionblinds 🙂

[tired juniper]

Can't find them in uk

Is it this one with thread?

https://www.curtainsandblinds4homes.co.uk/electric-curtains/eve-motionblinds-80mm-wave-curtain-track-battery-powered

[crude willow]

https://www.smartblinds.co.uk/ they might be able to deliver

[crude willow]

Yes it should. but they also show pictures of the bluetooth app. So make sure it's Eve motionblinds

But I can tell you the motor is not on stock right now

Almost, we are doing some final changes on firmware

after that it can be sold to our customers

[tired juniper]

EVE, controls Thread and Matter, future proof your smart home.

✓ Extra durable and strong, our curtain tracks will take up to 40kg weight.

✓ Built-in Timer, your curtain track will continue to work while you are away from your home.

✓ Large 2800aMh battery, Recharge in situ.

Yea says may 2024

How long is battery expected to last between charges?

How does the curtain attack to it looks like a weird system compared to aqara track

[crude willow]

Aqara track is quite ugly in my opinion. I think we have one of the best looking curtain tracks. It's super small and doesn't stand out like most chinese tracks.

Depends on size of your curtains

And how often you use them

but typically 1/2 per year you need to recharge them

[tired juniper]

how does the curtain attach to the ends? i see you have some kind of attachment to hide the motor behind the curtain etc but in the pictures ive seen this is a thin material shown not a curtain

[crude willow]

https://coulisse.com/emea/en/blogs/smart-curtains-webinar

you can see everything in this video

[tired juniper]

cheers

[twin vine]

and you will get extra support in this channel if it isnt working 😉

which i doubt, what ive seen of them they are rock stable

[crude willow]

Ofcourse we sometimes see issue's but most time it is thread network issue's

[tired juniper]

thanks guys

[still quiver]

Thanks so just to confirm you can get a power usage value in home assistant except it's not in the form of an entity but rather it's in hidden in one of the advanced settings of the device?

[toxic vector]

Its under the diagnostics category in HA

so doesnt show on a dashboard by default

But can be added to the energy dashboard

I have one

[still quiver]

oh that is great news, thanks!

[crude willow]

Same here. Under diagnostic

• current
• energy
• power
• voltage
  @still quiver

[bronze fog]

@crude willow I'd consider Eve blinds, but I have a hard requirement for solar power. Smartwings is my current go-to for that.

[twin vine]

they have a solar panel on them?

huh wow they do, like a little solar panel that sticks looking out on the window, wow

[crude willow]

@bronze fog at this moment we don't offer a solar panel and the motors aren't completely suitable for it right now. We are working on a new firmware that allows user to use a solar panel on the motors. However for most of our roller motors you have around 300 cycles. With some going up to 500. So for that you probably don't really need a solar panel. But as I said we will come with firmware and hopefully a nice solar panel.

[spice imp]

what do you mean with 300 cycles? Moving up and down?

[crude willow]

Ja

[toxic vector]

Just need eve to start selling their devices with matter firmware on them from factory rather than relying on in field updates 😦

[twin vine]

They do?

Have for a while

[toxic vector]

Not all of them

[twin vine]

Then it’s old stock

Here in Australia, older eve thread devices were removed from shelves ones the matter ones hit

[toxic vector]

here in UK, only the socket, motion sensor and temp sensors are available with matter

Everything else has the homekit firmware on it

[twin vine]

That’s all of them….

[toxic vector]

Thats not all of eves devices

[twin vine]

Energy, motion door and window and thermo are the only ones that have matter firmware

The rest don’t

At all

[toxic vector]

Door and window isnt matter here. The thermo isnt matter here

The blinds do have a matter update, not available preinstalled here

[twin vine]

Thermostat has a matter update on the way (beta) and you must old stock of the sensors

[toxic vector]

Like its so drastic, they even maintain their own separate store page direct from vendor for which things do have matter from factory

and my bad, the temp sensor isnt on it, door sensor is

the thermo isnt on it

blinds arent, despite blinds and matter being well discussed here

and Eve dont provide any way to install firmware updates without using apple equipment, so even if this is a stock issue (which their store pages indicate arent) you'd be SooL if you got old stock

I literally only know 1 single person in this country with apple home and its a bit of a trek to get to them

[crude willow]

@toxic vector I have mentioned your issue that you have with Eve. But they have been in the market for homekit devices since a long time.

And because of matter they now have the ability to transfer to other platforms. But you would be crazy to throw away your current stock.

But the problem is not with Eve, it is mostly with Apple homekit, this QR code can't be scanned with other devices than Apple devices. Regarding the fact they want people to have an apple ecosystem is also because of the following.

[twin vine]

Yep, we are in a odd period of time where both specs are viable and stable (eve matter devices are rock solid)

[crude willow]

If you just think, he lets upgrade to matter without having a border router your device will be useless. Previous devices worked on bluetooth. Where matter devices only use it for commissioning. Meaning people will be on the phone complaining it does not work anymore.

[toxic vector]

I do have the eve smart socket and the motion sensor, with the matter firmwares on them, not really had any problems with them

[crude willow]

So they implemented a safety feature that checks if there is a thread network available. Unfortunately they can not see networks from google, samsung, alexa, home assistant etc.

[toxic vector]

Though the motion sensor shipped with dead batteries

Which certainly made it look a bit DoA

[crude willow]

Understandable.

But I really believe that Eve is willing to create a special file that allows people to upgrade to matter without a border router.

but enough people need to ask for it

I will once again ask them to make a webpage/support page where people can sign up for this file

And filling in what device they have etc.

[toxic vector]

I have no apple devices at all. iPhones, home pods etc. Just an android phone and a mix of windows/linux computers

[crude willow]

Yeah that's not an issue for matter devices

but for homekit it is

[toxic vector]

yeah thats just kinda the point, the firmwares are there, but for me as a person that can use matter and not homekit, theres not a way to bring the homekit based device forwards onto matter. CHicken and egg type situation

If eve have a tool available and can provide access to it, then yeah, more useful

My only other issue with eve is price, but sometimes you get what you paid for.
My eve socket in particular I am quite happy with. The motion sensor, its only issues are those of matter and not of eve and I have it working perfectly for what I need in HA

[twin vine]

Which is a good thing honestly, I don’t think with how new the whole thread/matter thing is. End users shouldn’t be tweaking with anything that could nuke a whole network

You can use mDNS discovery tools, that isn’t enough for the end user

[toxic vector]

Matter doesnt strictly do motion, it does occupancy. But of course the eve motion sensor is a motion sensor not an occupancy sensor. Dont know whether its eve or HA, but cant adjust the timeout for the occupancy field in HA. But thats trivial to workaround in HA.

[twin vine]

You have to do that in the eve app

[toxic vector]

Yeah which isnt available

[twin vine]

Because HA speaks over strictly the matter spec

[toxic vector]

Matter config fields are a thing, but I dont think HA supports them yet

[twin vine]

It’s a shame, not much you could do until they release a android app

[twin vine]

Also requires eve to support them, which they don’t

Not last I saw at least

[toxic vector]

And even if HA supported them, some matter devices dont have them, so could be chicken and egg there too anyway

[twin vine]

Yep, unfortunately it’s going to be like that for a few years

Bunch of vendors with a bunch of custom clusters trying to achieve things not in the matter spec

[toxic vector]

Ultimately this specific motion vs occupancy issue, its also kinda just an artifact of emulating an occupancy sensor with a motion sensor, and thats not really Eves fault when matter doesnt do occupancy

[twin vine]

Yeah, it’s more the matter spec/CSA’s fault

But oh well

[toxic vector]

And tbf, the only thing I had an issue with was hey, my kitchen light would sometimes turn off while I was loading the oven. I just altered the timeout for the HA automation, tada, fixed

Kitchen light now basically stays on for 1 minute after the "occupancy" sensor reports clear, and does mean hey the light stays on a tad longer sometimes, who cares. That'd be all I could config with motion anyway

[twin vine]

Yeah that’s what I do, a 3-4 min buffer

It’s pretty reliable now

[toxic vector]

Since adding that 1 min buffer I've not had a single instance of premature light shutoff

and its only ya know, a minute extra that its on, if I really wanted to shave that down I'd have to get one of those radar based sensors

I am quite content with how it works now, thats an expensive option that'd never pay for itself

[twin vine]

Hahah yep, eve is not the cheapest by any means

[toxic vector]

the smart plug does take its sweet time repairing to matter if it gets power cycled, despite joining the thread mesh quite quickly. But once its up, its up

[twin vine]

Eve use Nordic chips in all of their products iirc, it as bloody stable library and SoC they got, that’s for sure

[spice imp]

Eve has played a very big role in defining the matter spec.

So it is EVE's fault

[twin vine]

i mean, wasnt eves motion sensors always just a occupancy sensor?

[spice imp]

The spec even includes a "OccupancySensorType" where PIR is one of them

[toxic vector]

Dunno what homekit supported

[spice imp]

and you can change in the eve app for how long after the last motion it reports occupancy

[toxic vector]

mentioned

Eve app only exists for iOS users

[spice imp]

that is googles fault

[toxic vector]

No its not

[spice imp]

yes it is

[toxic vector]

Google dont make the app

eve do

how on earth is that googles fault

[spice imp]

eve needs to use an API

that does not exist

on android

so it is googles fault

[toxic vector]

Eve updates arent done over homekit

so no

Theyre done over BLE which does exist

Android also has thread APIs

[spice imp]

Matter is not working over BLE

[toxic vector]

Eve config is also done over thread

[spice imp]

Then you have nanoleaf devices

[spice imp]

eve config is done over Matter

using custom clusters

[toxic vector]

Right and now we';ve confirmed you dont know whats going on

Matter is just IPv6

Matter over thread specifically in this instance, which again, google has support for

Android is even one of the reference implementations for

[spice imp]

you cant control a device commissioned to google home directly

you need do add another fabric

in your app

[toxic vector]

Nope

[spice imp]

and basically a new fabric for every phone that has the eve app then

yes you do

[toxic vector]

CHIPTool proves otherwise

[spice imp]

Im sorry, but you dont know what you are talking about.

I have worked with this exact problem

[toxic vector]

Fact is, I have my android phone communicating just fine on a matter fabric that is not google run

There is no limitation here

[spice imp]

I dont mean to offend you. But in apples ecosystem you are directly able to control fx the on off attribute of a device connected to your apple home. In google you are not able to access any matter attributes from other apps. To be able to do that you either make your app a matter controller, which means you need to commission your device to your app, after commissioning it to google home. When someone else uses the eve app on another android phone, they need to repeat the process.

[toxic vector]

CHIP provide reference implementations of android matter controllers and commissioners

[spice imp]

Your device is comissioned to only your app on android.

If you add it to google home you wont be able to control it with the reference implementation

Without also comissioning it there

[toxic vector]

Again I dont use google home

[spice imp]

But thats what 99% of android users do

And eve is not releasing an app that just works for 1% of all useres. The same as updating from homekit to matter. It would mean that they have to implement homekit in their android app, for 30 people?

Nanoleaf has a "workaround" for not having access to the google frabric on android. How is that working for them?

[crude willow]

it is indeed googles fault

I even spoke to google engineers about it

[toxic vector]

Nanoleafs app works perfectly for me, lets me set the config settings on the bulb just fine

[crude willow]

and they even mentioned it

[toxic vector]

and didnt require new fabrics

[crude willow]

Because nanoleaf is not homekit only

Eve was homekit only

[toxic vector]

neither are the 2 eve devices I own

Theyre on matter

[crude willow]

It was built around homekit

[toxic vector]

and I still cant config it

Fact is, NL has a solution working on android, Eve doesnt.

NL proves its possible

[crude willow]

NL works over bluetooth

For updates

and Eve is working on an android app. But they indeed need documentation from Google.

[toxic vector]

NL app shows it as doing so via thread and works with my phones BLE off

So honestly. Do not believe you

[crude willow]

You don't have to believe me. But NL has border routers

[toxic vector]

I do not have NL border routers

only 2 NL bulbs

They are matter over thread devices using BLE for commissioning

[crude willow]

And what BR are you using ?

[toxic vector]

Now theyre on my matter fabric I can config them in the nanoleaf app on android, without bluetooth

using HA OTBR

this setup is working fine in the NL app, which to me demolishes the idea that its impossible for eve to do the same

[crude willow]

I'm not saying it is impossible. It is possible, but there are some limitations. Because google has to expose to the Eve app

for android. And that part is not there

[toxic vector]

Then why can NL do it when I have no NL BR. Just my 1 OTBR and the 1 matter fabric managed by HA

And with BLE off on my phone

NL app even shows me the bulb is on the HA-thread-08 network and is communicating via thread

[crude willow]

Don't know. But I am not questioning 1 of the main developers from Google for matter and the people from Eve that have been doing this for years. And they really want to have an android app.

[toxic vector]

my phone is android. I do not own an apple smart speaker, I do not own a google speaker, I do not own an amazon speaker. The only thread devices in my home full stop are 2 nanoleaf bulbs, my dongle for the OTBR, 2 eve devices and 1 Silabs dev board

[crude willow]

I mean why wouldn't they want an android app

[toxic vector]

Ultimately the real solution here is that if eve are using the correct matter configuration clusters, this specific issue would go away when HA eventually supports them

[spice imp]

You are 0.01% of costumers. Noone cares about your.

[toxic vector]

My point isn't whether I'm niche. My point is NL proves it's doable

Now it would be nice if NL would do an eve and make their firmware reliable

Likewise HA is chicken and egg with some elements of it's own matter support

But there's a reason the matter integration in HA is labelled beta

Config, binding and groups are all at least on the HA roadmap

[spice imp]

they have implemented their own protocol and their matter devices are having a lot of problems

[toxic vector]

Once again willingly ignoring what I've said already

[spice imp]

well if their firmware is not reliable, have they proven that it's doable?

[toxic vector]

Yes

[spice imp]

Also they basically have a backdoor around all the security requirements imposed by matter

[toxic vector]

Doesn't take much programming experience to know their matter bugs are not necessarily related to their ability to configure and OTA their lights. Especially with the supposed claims some of their instability may be upstream in silabs sdk

So again. I repeat they've at least proven it's possible. It'd be nice if they were reliable, though my two have never once failed on stable firmware

Which again, they've never failed for known and established reasons

They only tend to fall over when routing traffic. My network is small and all in range of the one BR. The eve motion does bounce around whether it's connected direct to the BR or off of 2 different neighbours fairly haphazardly though this isn't inherently a problem especially as it works reliably consistently through that.

The other devices are all connected directly to the BR

The only outages I've ever had have all been the OTBR add-on crashing in HA

Which funnily enough the dongle is silabs based and seems to be crashing firmware side rather than HA side leaving me inclined to believe the problem is upstream of NL

[crude willow]

We will see a eve app in near future. So just wait a while 🙂

Based on what I have seen and have heard Eve is doing a decent job in thread matter world

[toxic vector]

I do like the devices I have. I do.

They are working and reliable

Albeit, even the NL's are reliable in my setup, so probably just not big enough network to really test the eves

[crude willow]

and just for your info. They ofcourse would like to have an android app sooner than later. I mean their energy plug is quite expensive compared to others. But on most platforms it's a dumb energy plug right now

Because energy measurements isn't implemented everywhere. Same goes for your motion sensor you can't adjust

[toxic vector]

Its just again, annoying that the only way to do config requires owning a smart home ecosystem I dont have and literally only know 1 person in this country using. I know more HA + OTBR + android users than I do homekit users (3 for the prior, 1 for the latter)

[crude willow]

Yeah but that is because they used to be homekit only

[toxic vector]

The energy plug, I dont know if it has any config settings, dont care, it works for me already. It does exactly what I need out of the box

[crude willow]

Yes because you use HA

but that same plug on google only has on/off

for now

[toxic vector]

Its also doing a better job than the frients at tracking small loads

It does disagree on voltage with my shelly 3em, however, I have not compared either devices measurements against calibrated instruments (I do have access to them though, and the eve is close, and there would be some drop across the home wiring but I'd have imagined less than I am measuring)

[digital salmon]

Whenever the near future arrives. 😉

As an Apple and HA User I do not have these problems with EVE. My 37 EVE devices (32 Matter over Thread, 5 HomeKit over Thread) are absolutely reliable. But some weeks ago I had one EVE Energy that destroyed my Thread experience. Thanks to the new HA server logs including the node id, I was able to find the respective device. Thanks again to Marcel and Stefan. I tested a lot of things, like repositioning the device or rebooting my Apple TBRs and HAOS, but nothing helped. The solution was to reset and readd the device. Since then my Thread network is reliable again. I have 9 EVE Thermos with beta firmware running, since some weeks and I didn't have a single issue with them. In my opinion this Matter firmware is production ready with the first release. IMO you get what you pay for.

I also have 16 Nanoleaf Matter over Thread devices paired to AH and HA. I have the latest Nanoleaf beta release candidate firmware 3.6.173 installed and it seems to be a good one. My HA Matter log is quiet and all devices are available since more than 24hours.

All my Matter over Thread devices are paired to AH and HA. So Multi-admin now seems to work, too.

[toxic vector]

Yeah this is the other potential factor in my NL reliability. Not only is my network small and mostly direct to BR. No multi admin to cause any additional matter protocol issues or extra chattiness

my NL's are on latest stable, not opted into beta

I do want to get to the bottom of what is happening with OTBR though

[digital salmon]

Yeah, we already discussed that, the more bulbs you add with their currently general available firmware, the more unreliable your Thread network gets. We had consensus here in the HA community that it's round about 10 bulbs.

[toxic vector]

Yeah, there seems to be a few factors going on

They've got their large single rig with more bulbs than that working reliably in a non realistic setup

[digital salmon]

Yeah, I saw that picture in their discord. 😄

[toxic vector]

They're at least aware of the issues and trying to get it solved

But that rig, wouldn't be surprised if there's barely any device to device routing going on

And it seems to be routing that's killing them

I have no routing. Multi admin would increase traffic. Larger network in a larger home would increase routing between devices.

I reckon if they strategically stuck some foil into that rig to simulate different rooms and the need to route along different paths, that rig would suddenly exhibit all the issues end users have seen

My OTBR issues, I might just setup an ESP32 border router and see if thats any more reliable

and hey, no reason I cant just use 2 BR's at that point

[sick swan]

Sorry, might have looked into it already once, but forgot: What was your OTBR issue exactly?

[toxic vector]

Oh its crashing near daily at the moment

seems to be the dongle giving up the ghost rather than HA side though

[sick swan]

Do you have logs?

[toxic vector]

Not to hand, not at home

if its crashed when I am home I'll grab

(also is there a better way of getting logs than the log tab on the addon, because then I can probably grab you some logs when I get in regardless)

Just preliminary:
I used this https://darkxst.github.io/silabs-firmware-builder/ to flash a ZBDongle-E with the Openthread RCP firmware, I am not using MultiPAN.

[toxic vector]

@sick swan just got home to not being able to turn my light on because otbr down

https://pastebin.com/JSvA4iw1

[toxic vector]

Pretty much a variation on this each time, some seemingly uninteresting logs, then boom, rcp stops responding

[bronze fog]

A number of of my windows need a ladder to access. Battery only is not an option.

[marble perch]

fwiw, and to clarify things a bit: current Nanoleaf Matter/Thread devices include a proprietary (non-matter) interface accessible over thread which the app can use to configure/operate the bulbs. The app can alternately talk to the bulbs directly over BLE. Their app supports connecting the device to Thread without doing any Matter provisioning. They currently do firmware updates only over BLE (you need to have your phone nearby to the devices so it can talk to them over BLE to update firmware)

[sick swan]

otbr-agent[167]: 1d.20:44:08.404 [C] Platform------: HandleRcpTimeout() at radio_spinel.cpp:2092: RadioSpinelNoResponse

I don't remember having seen that tbh. It really seems the RPC died.

That is not SkyConnect right?

The message commes from here:
https://github.com/openthread/openthread/blob/main/src/lib/spinel/radio_spinel.cpp#L2092

[toxic vector]

No, its basically the same firmware/hardware, but yeah not a skyconnect

[toxic vector]

Here

[sick swan]

I probably could set OPENTHREAD_SPINEL_CONFIG_RCP_RESTORATION_MAX_COUNT on OTBR side, which would retry. But not sure if that would help in reality.

What do you do to recover? Just restart OTBR add-on? Or unplug/replug radio?

[toxic vector]

I sometimes have to restart twice

but yeah

[twin marlin]

I installed openthread on two esp32-h2 (ot_cli) from espressif. I managed to get both esp32s working on thread network (ping works). As state I have a leader and a child. Can someone tell me the difference from border router and leader? Or should I falsh different fw on h2? 🙏

[toxic vector]

You can have multiple border routers in a thread network, theyre just a bridge for mesh and non mesh traffic

Ethernet or wifi traffic can enter the mesh at the border router and vice versa

The leader, thats just the 1 node thats in charge of managing routing on the mesh, dynamically selected, you'll usually find its one of your border routers but not always

like if the leader goes offline, another one will be automatically selected

Could find one of your bulbs has become the mesh leader, doesnt matter

[twin marlin]

Thank you very much! So, to get this thing going, I need BR fw on h2 more than two nodes (leader+child)?

[toxic vector]

No, you only need one BR. You are allowed to have multiple though.
And one seemingly random device in your network will be the leader.

Which device is leader really doesn't matter and may change

[twin marlin]

Aha, ok, now the logic is more clear to me. What about SkyConnect - is this neccessary? I mean, I have it, not yet in multiprotocol mode, but want to make a thread network (just to try out), is it feasible just with h2 and another h2 or c6 as node and connect it with HA?

[marble perch]

you can't built a border router on only an h2 (without external hardware) since the h2 doesn't have a wifi radio. espressif sells a "thread border router" devkit which includes a c3 and an h2, plus an optional ethernet adapter. In that, the h2 runs RCP firmware (only does thread radio) and the c3 runs the border router and talks over wifi or ethernet.

another thing you could try is you can put RCP firmware on an h2 devkit and connect it to a linux device using the uart usb port. Then you can run the openthread border router (ot-br-posix) on the linux device. I think you might even be able to use the ha openthread border router addon for this.

(it's possible in theory to make a single-device border router on an esp32-c6, since that has both wifi and thread support, but sharing a single radio for both means that the performance will suffer since it can only talk to one network at a time)

[twin marlin]

Thanks @marble perch . Someone managed to get Skyconnect working on zigbee and thread? Now I use skyconnect for zigbee network and I want to try out thread network. Based on info here it would be probably easier to create thread with rpi3 + h2 ...

[marble perch]

using homeassistant as a thread border router with a single skyconnect for both zigbee and thread requires a "multiprotocol" firmware which lets a single radio be shared between zigbee and thread. This works... but it requires that both networks be running on the same channel, meaning the two networks will conflict.

[toxic vector]

and also isnt supported anymore

but they mentioned being able to ping so I had assumed there was more than just an H2 at play, this may be an incorrect assumption

[marble perch]

if you have two h2 devkits both on thread, you can use the serial console commands to have them ping each-other without a thread border router present.

[toxic vector]

I personally intend to strap an H2 onto an esp32 poe board at some point and try that out as a BR with how often my silabs dongle is crashing

[twin marlin]

yes I used two h2...following this YT video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5Ih-g1_Ltw&t=120s

[toxic vector]

Yeah then neither device there was a BR

[marble perch]

I'm currently running the esp thread border router devkit (c3 + h2), and it's... mostly ok. I'm running into some issues where service registration is failing sometimes on it.

[toxic vector]

My silabs dongle crashes near daily

[marble perch]

suspicion from some other folks i've talked to is that there might be an issue with the mdns stack running on the c3

[twin marlin]

You helped me understand some things around thread and br's, so I'll try with RPi3 tomorrow 🙂

[toxic vector]

Leading me into believing folk that say hey the nanoleaf problems are actually in the silabs sdk

Because frankly my BR is doing the same thing as the NLs XD

[marble perch]

from my experience... that seems kinda likely tbh. my thread border router has been surprisingly stable aside from the SRP issues.

[twin marlin]

I was looking for this device, but can't find it anywhere (aliexp..., mouser...)

[toxic vector]

its on espressifs own ali page

[marble perch]

it's in the Development Boards > ESP32-H2 section

[toxic vector]

its also on mouser

356-ESPTHRDBRZIGBEGW on mouser

[marble perch]

make sure to actually pick the "main board" on their aliexpress page; it defaults to having the sub-board only (ethernet add-on) selected :)

[toxic vector]

https://docs.espressif.com/projects/esp-thread-br/en/latest/hardware_platforms.html

(and its an S3 rather than C3, little practical diff tho)

[marble perch]

oh, right. confusing product names :)

you can of course "build it yourself" if you have an H2 devkit and some other ESP32 board with wifi, just need to use some jumper cables to connect the UART or SPI pins together.

[toxic vector]

yeah, or for me, I'mma looking to do via RMII \o/

looks like their config can do that just fine

[marble perch]

one thing it doesn't look like their RCP firmware supports is building it so the RCP spinel interface is available on the USB-ACM debug port on the H2. That would be neat to support since it would allow really simple USB dongles for thread that don't need a separate UART/USB chip.

[toxic vector]

nordic do allow that

[marble perch]

(iirc it would be more cpu intensive; the UART has DMA support, but the debug usb needs to cpu to push/pull bytes)

maybe i'll open an issue on their github repo asking about it :)

[spice imp]

i have been using an brd4187c as rcp and moved back to a nordic 52840 because it was crashing a lot.

Also had some wireless explorer kits that where running a matter example that was crashing a lot

[marble perch]

hmm. i'd like to have a thread border router that supports dhcp6-pd; would help sort out routing with multiple vlans.

oh, interesting; the max number of services that the esp thread br can register is set in the config when building the firmware: https://github.com/espressif/esp-thread-br/issues/52#issuecomment-1867229322 i probably left that at the default, and it's just not enough for more than a couple devices, especially with matter multi-admin and nanoleaf registering an extra service for their own protocol.

(and apparently they also just merged a fix for a memory leak when under high mdns query load)

[marble perch]

yeah, the default is only 10. so you'd probably start seeing issues as soon as you hit around 4-5 matter devices, depending on the number of fabrics; and fewer on nanoleaf devices since they publish an extra service for the proprietary protocol.

[autumn merlin]

Hi All, should I be able to add something like a nanoleaf lightstrip to my SkyConnect via a Gen2 Shelly as a BT proxy?

[twin vine]

HA currently uses your phone’s Bluetooth for commissioning

If you have an android, and sync credentials. It should work

[autumn merlin]

I have iOS, and when i try and connect the light strip, i get the following message, either via the web interface or via the HA app:

An unhandled error occurred while attempting to pair with this device. This may be a temporary failure or your device may not be supported currently: Nanoleaf Strip 9W59 (D3:36:22:9F:D1:80) - D3:36:22:9F:D1:80: Failed to connect after 9 attempt(s): No backend with an available connection slot that can reach address D3:36:22:9F:D1:80 was found: The proxy/adapter is out of connection slots or the device is no longer reachable; Add additional proxies (https://esphome.github.io/bluetooth-proxies/) near this device

[marble perch]

the essentials light strip is a matter device, not sure what you're doing? it shouldn't be trying to do any bt from the HA side at all.

[twin vine]

Yeah…. Unplug your BLE adapter then try it, is your strip connected to any other ecosystem?

[autumn merlin]

Its not matter. Its the homekit thread one before matter one.

[autumn merlin]

I guess I was asking if it can work via BLE proxy rather than a BLE adapter

[marble perch]

ah, so you're trying this flow? https://www.home-assistant.io/integrations/homekit_controller/#adding-a-homekit-device-through-bluetooth help page says it should work with a proxy.

[twin vine]

Oh right

Wait sorry, i thought it was the matter one

[autumn merlin]

Yep - I have shelly gen 2s and BT proxy is loaded. I know these are working with HA as I have my iPhone setup as a private BLE device and it works. There are 2 gen 2 shellys within 3-4 metres of the lightstrip.

[marble perch]

so, you have the strip in pairing mode, it shows up as a discovered device in the web ui, and you get that error when you try to configure it?

[autumn merlin]

Yep - hold down the power and minus button for 5 seconds, it flashes then turns off and on. This is reset in pairing mode. Interesting it does not come up as a new device any more.

[vapid shell]

Shelly Bluetooth proxy isn’t a full proxy

It can receive advertisements (which is how it works for private ble device) but not control things

You need esphome proxies

[autumn merlin]

Oh, thanks for the understading here. Ill see if i can find that atom echo ive got an plug that in 🙂

OK that worked a treat! Thank you.

[toxic vector]

Ah, that's an interesting observation then, if I do go down that path of experimentation I'll have to remember to tweak that

[toxic vector]

Yeah I'm on the sonoff ZBDongle-E running openthread rcp, not multipan. It is silabs based. Crashes almost daily

My NL bulbs, perfectly stable, my BR, flops

And I think what's going on is that my mesh is very very small. 5 devices total excluding the BR, but it's also all directly in range of the BR. So the NL bulbs don't ever perform any routing. I have one SED that sometimes routes via the eve plug, sometimes goes via the NL bulb downstairs and sometimes direct to BR, but that's not exactly a big deal for the bulb to route.

But I think. Its effectively silabs handling multiple packets at once, be it for border routing or on mesh routing. Seems that's likely what's crashing the bulbs in folks NL setups and what's crashing my BR

Though now there's an NL update out that's helping a lot of folk. Does make me wonder if theres an upstream sdk fix or something and if so, maybe a newer RCP firmware on my BR might help.
I am interested in the standalone esp32 route.
I do have plenty of Nordic stuff kicking around.
So by no means gonna be end of the line for thread in my home

[civic basin]

Hi everyone, I'm still at a loss regarding pairing matter over thread devices directly to HA. (I've asked about this in #matter-archived a few days ago)
I have a fully working matter setup (flat unifi network, 1x apple tv 4k, iphone to commission devices, 9 nanoleaf bulbs). Sharing of devices from apple home to HA also works.
By copying the credentials from the nanoleaf app I was able to make the apple thread network my preferred network in HA.

However, when trying to add a new matter device (using the iOS companion app) I end up on a dialog stating "Thread border router required". Nothing in the matter container logs.
Maybe I've messed up the credential importing? I tried to do it using the companion app, but that failed "no preferred network found"; maybe the underlying problem is the same? Or did I miss something obvious?

[serene prawn]

@broken anchor I converted your message into a file since it's above 15 lines :+1:

[sick swan]

Transferring the Thread credentials from HA to iPhone is not yet supported.

[civic basin]

I don't think that's what I'm trying to do; I want to use the apple thread network as my only network. The iOS app should have the credentials to it already. My thread network overview only shows the apple network as well.

[twin vine]

Yeah, you are not really meant to import creds straight into HA (like you have) could break a few things

Do you have any other border routers? Like a skyconnect

not sure why you would have any of the thread stuff installed, istg you needed a dongle for it to be any value

[civic basin]

I have a skyconnect. But the situation is the same no matter what I do (skyconnect as an additional tbr in the apple network, skyconnect disabled, I've even tried it with the thread integration deactivated).

If I understand correctly, then the iOS companion app should not care about that anyway and instead use the apple tbr directly?

edit: just for fun, I let the skyconnect form a second thread network. I've had no problems pairing two devices with that network (using an Android phone). Obviously that's not what I want though; I would like to have a single network.

[sick swan]

Hm I see. I thought that was previously possible 🤔 I think some changes around Thread network managment were recently implemented.

@old niche can it be that using the Apple Thread network is no longer possible?