#game-update

1 messages · Page 213 of 1

austere mulch
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Slayer isn’t a combat skill

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You use combat skill to train slayer

limber creek
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I do combat in slayer 🤔

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Same arguement

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Yall wild

austere mulch
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Just like you use combat skills to engage in ship combat

slate badger
austere mulch
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The more you remove or reduce the use of combat skills in ship combat, the more sailing becomes a combat skill

grizzled imp
limber creek
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100% combat skill tbh

austere mulch
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Scroll up like two clicks and try reading again

grizzled imp
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that doesn't invalidate what i said
you've admitted that non-combat skills can boost damage at certain encounters
why can't that apply to sailing combat

austere mulch
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Because zalcano isn’t combat

grizzled imp
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oh?

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you're sure about that?

austere mulch
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Yes, it’s a skilling boss

limber creek
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im pretty sure hitting a monster and avoiding its hits counts as combat.

bronze kernel
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Extremist idea. Make cannons deal 0 or a flat amount of damage based on the ammo and your ranged level. If hit lands based on ranged accuracy and gear of course

austere mulch
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If you add a hp bar to the veins at mlm, that doesn’t all the sudden become combat either

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In a similar vein that tempoross isn’t combat

limber creek
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mlm doesnt attack you

austere mulch
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Neither does tempoross

grizzled imp
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alright
then fighting sharks isn't combat either
it's a skilling miniboss that forces me to manage a health bar

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just like zalcano

limber creek
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careful simbab logic has no place here.

austere mulch
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Hence - the comment I linked for you you try and read

bronze kernel
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This is why I was disappointed Sailing won the poll

austere mulch
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If you’d like to give it another go

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Beware, letters make words that you have to read and interpret

grizzled imp
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you keep linking me back to the same post that doesn't disprove my point
sailing "combat" isn't game wide, it's restricted to the oceans

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im sorry if that confuses you bc the ocean covers the entire physical space

austere mulch
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If all mining content was like zalcano, that would be a problem

grizzled imp
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if all sailing content was like ship combat, we'd be shooting cannonballs at shipwrecks

limber creek
grizzled imp
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so i'm not sure how your argument factors in

austere mulch
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You’re not sure because comprehension is not something you seem to have in your toolbelt, but that’s fine

grizzled imp
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no, you're just an idiot and i'm tired of pretending otherwise

austere mulch
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Isolated skilling encounters that have combat-adjacent components (like zalcano and tempoross) work great because they keep the skills from becoming pseudo-combat skills and have a lesser concern on game wide balancing and integration.

By making that a more general placed and widespread event, you run into the issues we currently have with the existing system

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It’s not a difficult thing to wrap your mind around

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Or rather, it shouldn’t be

grizzled imp
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neither is the idea that ship combat is like one of 6 different skilling activities for sailing

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but you have trouble with that

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ship combat isn't all sailing is

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i got to around 86 sailing without really investing in ship combat

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you're just an idiot who conflates it with everything

austere mulch
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Ship combat shouldn’t be a major component of sailing at all, much in the same way combat adjacent features of mining, rc, fishing, aren’t primary components of those skills

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It should instead focus on the core of the skill and features that work well, being exploration, movement, and integrating with wider skills in ways that cause less problems like it does with trawling

ashen yarrow
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Honestly i think the reason crewmates on cannon feel so weak is because they removed the "bugged" sailing level scaling from them, so huge cannonball ranged str increases only gave them couple max hit compared to old hits

austere mulch
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The reason you don’t engage with it isn’t that it isn’t a major component of the skill - it’s because that aspect of the skill is fractured and is a universally disliked experience

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There’s a difference and you seem to lack the intellectual honestly to identifyit

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Or capability

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Perhaps both

grizzled imp
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no, it's because i didn't need anything from ship combat, so I was more focused on other methods

austere mulch
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Again, that does not mean it’s not a core component of the skill

grizzled imp
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i charted everything, i did some fishing trawler for the unique fish, I did salvage for the clogs

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because i cared more

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ok if its a core component how come

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I can ignore it

austere mulch
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Read every blog and communication on sailing up to release and all the “key components and features” that were to be added

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And how combat was a huge aspect of that

ashen yarrow
austere mulch
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Again, intellectual dishonesty or inability to take an objective look at the information provided to you by the developers themselves

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You choose

grizzled imp
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damica hit me with a harder counterargument in one message than you have all day

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bc true, I used a crappy mithril cannon early on to hunt low level rays and got enough barbs for one good net

limber creek
austere mulch
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We’ve been in communication for less than 10 mins

ashen yarrow
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current the reason to do sailing combat is mainly for unique boat upgrades

austere mulch
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“I don’t engage with it so it’s not a core complement” is objectively false

obsidian whale
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Moral of the story is that sailing shouldn’t have been voted in

gaunt minnow
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I will be participating in sailing so I can unlock everything that lets me avoid sailing

gaunt minnow
austere mulch
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Sailing is fine as a skill and it does a lot of things well. It absolutely fails at combat for obvious reasons and should not have come with it at launch

grizzled imp
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me when temporal comprehension is hard

obsidian whale
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Every aspect of sailing could have fit under another skill

gaunt minnow
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‘We don’t want dungeoneeirng because it’s like a minigame’

So let’s vote for sailing

restive storm
gaunt minnow
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Is it too late to go back on sailing?

minor whale
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Sailing isn't bad, and it's nothing like a minigame
It's just got one glaring flaw that they for some reason can't figure out how to make it feel good to do

austere mulch
gaunt minnow
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To me it’s no different to most minigames

grizzled imp
limber creek
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Sailing is just do a couple of barracuda trial minigames post the abyssmal starting ocean uber, then salvage afk to 99.

austere mulch
limber creek
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And im tired of acting like it isn't.

austere mulch
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There’s a lot of day that’s been had

limber creek
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TM do you make all those cherries you pick into pies and sell them for bonds?

grizzled imp
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probably

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probably sells them to Thurgo

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bootleg redberry pies

austere mulch
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Sailing would’ve had a better launch and current state had they gone with deep sea drilling as opposed to trying to make combat work with what little time they had between the beta and release

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As seen in the, close to zero, meaningful chances the combat component saw in that time

gaunt minnow
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Unsure that deep sea drilling would’ve made the skill good

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Would’ve still been trash imo

austere mulch
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Nah, it just wouldn’t have been a bad addition like the state of combat had been

grizzled imp
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even if it wasn't trash, what would have separated it from salvaging?

austere mulch
grizzled imp
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we already have salvaging, deep sea drilling would have been a bad addition

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worse than combat, potentially

gaunt minnow
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I’m not convinced we needed a new skill at all

austere mulch
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Drilling was on the original design list prior to salvaging iirc

grizzled imp
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drilling became salvaging, then

gaunt minnow
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I would’ve liked the existing skills to become more relevant

austere mulch
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As an integration with mining

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It didn’t become salvaging outside of influence maybe, they explicitly said it was only shelved for launch because of time constraints

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Because they put a lot of time into combat, even though it doesn’t feel that way

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Not solely because, but one of the reasons

gaunt minnow
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So we get sailing 😐

grizzled imp
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let's say we did have two redundant sailing training methods (in terms of how they operate) with salvaging and drilling
what would we have even gotten from deep sea drilling

austere mulch
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The concept was similar to trawling where it was for what was expected to be new resources / low xp money making method

vernal valve
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We would have dodged killing random sea trash for ship parts 😭

austere mulch
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Not painting it up as some amazing thing, but it undoubtedly would’ve been better than the existing ship combat system

ember token
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dredging didn’t become salvaging

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it would be the same type of thing as trawling like TM said, it was cut in the first place because they wanted to just focus on one hybrid method

hard axle
gaunt minnow
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Damn who could’ve predicted that
(Literally everyone)

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😐

ember token
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its really not water agility

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because it's actually salvaging

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i bet if you were to look at their internal data, 80%+ of the xp gained would be from salvaging

gaunt minnow
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It’s water agility until you start salvaging tho

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I didn’t hate training sailing but I think it has some big flaws

ember token
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yeah idk i still disagree with calling it water agility considering that it doesnt play at all like agility

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like I wouldnt call mahogany homes construction agility

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maybe you would idk

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but that's an example of what it sounds like to me when people call it water agility

restive siren
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its a dumb phrase people use to shit on it because they cant be bothered to come up with actual criticism about trials

limber creek
restive siren
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anyways, back to water shooting stars

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gonna hit up some wood mining later

thin nest
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Isn't most of Runescape doing the same task over and over and over though?

kind surge
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why should we use that as an excuse to keep things bad

restive siren
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i dont think trials are bad at all

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many people dont like them, many do

kind surge
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trials are good but would like some variance tbh

restive siren
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think it would just be healthier for discussions if people would formulate actual feedback what would make trials better and not repeat the same buzzword nonsense all the time. In the end trials and trawling are two of the most unique skilling methods that exist in this game, pretending its just agility doesnt help anyone

kind surge
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idk if I'd say variance is a buzzword

restive siren
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...

ember token
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well i dont think they were responding to you

restive storm
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Trials were the most miserable experience I’ve ever had on osrs

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Just god awful stuff

quiet topaz
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Self report

kind surge
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also trials do feel like sepulchre

quiet topaz
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The trials are fun once you learn it

kind surge
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but that's not a bad thing

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sepulchre is good and there should be more of it for agility

restive storm
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Even after learning all the trials was not fun whatsoever lol

quiet topaz
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Its engaging and worth the exp

restive storm
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Absolutely not

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Got my extractor and instantly went back to salvaging

quiet topaz
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How is it not?

kind surge
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so "water agility" is right for barracuda trials, but it's like the better part of agility

restive storm
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Didn’t even bother to get extractor on pure just salvaged thru it

ember token
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ultimately its like most skills, you do it to 99 and thats it for most people

quiet topaz
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It is absolutely engaging content and worth the 215k/hr

restive siren
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i mean its just fine to dislike something, i (and i think almost every player) dislikes like 90% of skilling methods in this game. Skilling is just not very exciting and idk what people expected with a new skill exactly

kind surge
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anyone using that as a dismissive usually just prefer afk (and how we got current rates for salvaging)

restive storm
quiet topaz
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Bro did not get the marlin times and it shows

kind surge
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imo salvaging ruins the skill since almost everyone just defaults to it

restive storm
quiet topaz
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Yeah exactly, like I said

restive storm
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Locking boat upgrades behind them shoulda been illegal

quiet topaz
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Self report and didn't learn it

kind surge
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it only gets good at the higher levels

ember token
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so now the skill is the salvaging skill

quiet topaz
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Its like failing every level of sepulchre getting hit and resetting and saying the content sucks LOL

kind surge
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before lunar isle courier tasks, the xp is legit comparable to salvaging

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how did that go through

restive siren
restive storm
quiet topaz
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I cant with you bro

zealous briar
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Add for us 3 new big bosses in sea who drops pets and are good money. And leave that skill alone scronglypirate

restive storm
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I’m not tryina sweat it out while I’m skilling man I’m tryina lay parallel and watch a show lol

quiet topaz
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"I can't 1tick gmaul ags the first time I tried it, pking sucks!!!"

kind surge
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sep is better because at least there are alternate paths that you randomly get sent to in each floor

quiet topaz
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Just say you like more afk content dude. Its okay

kind surge
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but barracuda trials are always the same route

restive storm
quiet topaz
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No

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You said the content sucks when you haven't even tried it

restive storm
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I have tried it I did all the trials wdym lol

restive siren
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i got pkd once on a clue step so all pvp is bad

tender harness
limber creek
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i did all the trials and think they suck.

restive storm
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Locking boat upgrades behind trials was the dumbest thing they could ever do with sailing release

restive siren
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today we learned skilling is boring

limber creek
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Just move your janky ass boat around this course and dont miss a single one of these water spots or else you get to redo the entire thing.

restive siren
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crazy

tender harness
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the amount of fucking tilt from gwenith glide over crate hit boxes was enough to make me never do them again

limber creek
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Manaless gets it lmao

tender harness
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oop we fixed it
oop crate is missing
oop we broke it

gaunt minnow
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Salvaging is clearly way too good

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But jagex too scared to do anything about it due to backlash

restive storm
quiet topaz
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The crazy amount of self reporting is crazy. You dont say inferno is shit because your dumb ass cant solve the wave do you?

limber creek
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You're awfully agressive.

restive storm
limber creek
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I have infernal and quiver whatsup beast?

quiet topaz
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All of you are saying the same thing lmao

restive storm
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But it isn’t my fault they designed bts to be unfun lol

limber creek
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And you're crying.

tender harness
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Inferno is great the difference is most people dont have the patience nor time to sit for 2 - 3 hours for a sitting to full send inferno

quiet topaz
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"I struggled to do the content so it sucks"

kind surge
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idk if they ever said they struggled with sailing

limber creek
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I beat all that content. What?

restive storm
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No the content sucked so I didn’t continuously do it after I beat it. That’s all I’m saying lol

quiet topaz
tender harness
quiet topaz
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I am not a pker lmao

limber creek
tender harness
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even worse

restive storm
tender harness
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I went to public school and I can still understand whats being said

limber creek
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Maybe hes always hit every crate on every single run cause hes built different.

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Fair play

quiet topaz
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Well yes? Thats how learning the content works

tender harness
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maybe he secretly works at Jagex and knows the hit box changes before they go live

quiet topaz
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I learned to hit all the boxes?

limber creek
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Dang so did everyone else good talk bro.

quiet topaz
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I mean obviously not

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LOL

kind surge
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what the hell is happening now

tender harness
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are you pretending gwenith glide hit boxes were never broken

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jesus

kind surge
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elitism in barracuda trials?

restive storm
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I love the notion that, if I was good at the content, I would enjoy spamming bts. Which is just totally out of pocket and couldn’t be further from the truth. When I just hate the entire style of training 😂

quiet topaz
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No, they were bad before, but they're more than doable now

restive storm
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Maybe if I was good at 3t4g I’d do mining to 200m cuz it’d be so fun

limber creek
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If you didn't suck you would've spent 90 straight hours doing ocean agility. This is not a conversation. I am the king of ocean agility.

quiet topaz
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God forbid you need to be accurate with clicks to get some of the highest exp in the skill?

oblique mesa
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Trials seemed fine as a concept.

Like the rest of sailing it needs more polish. Was weird that the time trial game mode didn't have ghosts / speedometer / hitboxes you can actually see.

tender harness
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I too like hit boxes changing on me every 3rd day

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real quality design

quiet topaz
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And now it hasn't changed in 3 months so? Whats the problem

restive storm
tender harness
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im 99 I dont need to do baracuda trials kekw

limber creek
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I've been 99 brother.

quiet topaz
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Yeah being 99 has nothing to do with whether or not the content is "good" or "bad"

tender harness
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literally Baracuda trials are an enshitified water sepulchre with better rates that plays worse than sepulchre

limber creek
tender harness
restive storm
tender harness
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I did 99 with pre nerf extractor on cuda trials
it fucking blows

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that is an objective fact

quiet topaz
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There's just no reason to train sailing post 99 since all the ways you get exp aren't really processing unless you're going for clogs

limber creek
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Homie is only 91 sailing.

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Bro go do your runs.

true talon
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Only way to 99 sailing is to salvage atleast for Ironman due to cannon needs

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I guess now with the new Kraken not as important

tender harness
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flat armor of 15 🤡 hope you have an ayak or shadow then

quiet topaz
austere mulch
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Sepulcher is what trials wish they could be

limber creek
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try getting rosewood hull at 93 and you'll go faster.

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and times are then easier.

austere mulch
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I didn’t hate trials tho fwiw. Enjoyed them from time to time but salvaging was too good

restive storm
quiet topaz
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Yeah and spend 30 hours at frost dragons for the supplies :/ but thats a whole other discussion

limber creek
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Trials were frustrating but fun to learn and do a time or two. But grinding that to 99 is like. Brother theres 0 chance i was doing that with hitboxes being changed every login XD

austere mulch
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My cope for trials was that I could do it for 20 mins and walk away for 40 and it was the same xp as salvaging

gaunt minnow
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I just did trials for the 1 off rewards, other than that the skill was salvaging to me

austere mulch
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After you learn the hotboxes for the 4th time and path, it got pretty boring because no variance like sep

restive storm
gaunt minnow
limber creek
quiet topaz
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The sad fact is that salvaging post 83 is just too op. Like why wouldn't I afk for 100k/hr opposed to gigasweat trials for twice that

gaunt minnow
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Yeah it is

restive storm
gaunt minnow
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Compared it to other similar afk activities and it’s obscenely good

quiet topaz
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I think salvaging should be like MAX 70k/hr

austere mulch
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Salvaging is too strong for sure but if you’re reaaaallly afking it, it’s more like 60k/hr

kind surge
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afk activities usually barely hit the 30k xp per hour mark

austere mulch
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Like, actual afk. Not low apm “afk”

kind surge
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but then sailing comes with 70k-100k xp per hour

quiet topaz
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1.5t salvaging maybe if you want to sweat

limber creek
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shit i just got done afking ironwood trees to 98 (2k behind 99)
Any skill i can train at that high of exp afk im going to pickup another game and afk that skill.

quiet topaz
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Full afk for 60k/hr is nuts

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Even ironwoods you gotta click every now and then though lol

limber creek
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afk overlay 2k delay manual set

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easy 99

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click once per like 4 mins or so

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banking 3 clicks

quiet topaz
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Back in my day there was no fancy forestry or ironwoods

tacit pendant
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Got the jank ass foot pedal chinchompa island setup going as we speak

hard axle
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Did people just forget that they changed hitboxes like three times on the gwenith glide HmmPepe

hard axle
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Far more folks standing on the actual salvaging spots than actually doing BTs

tender harness
odd basalt
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lol jagex doesn't get why they are getting downvoted XD

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it's the membership price, not the updates

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typical company blunder

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legit nothing is is going to be majority upvoted until the price thing is atleast addressed

south void
limber creek
sharp cave
thorn holly
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It's definitely just poor timing and classic OSRS bandwagoning and poor reading comprehension combo.

thorn holly
# sharp cave They tried to nerf it and everyone lost their minds

Salvaging did kinda ruin the skill for a lot of people, because the other methods are a lot more fun but salvaging is so unbalanced that they are "forced" to do it.

I haven't really salvaged outside of one level (86 to 87 at work), but that's only cause I'm not a big AFKer. I fully understand it's by far the most broken skilling method in the game.

meager flame
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I honestly don’t really think it ruined the skill

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I think the part where once you have levels there’s nothing to do with it is what really ruins it

ashen yarrow
meager flame
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They also completely failed to listen

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People kept saying cannons should feel more like cannons etc and they turned around and made them sea thralls while you mage

sharp cave
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generally salvaging is ok post balance wave

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i think stuff like the dragon cannon barrel being a 1/20k is absoultly stupid and so is salvors paint being locked to martial

ashen yarrow
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player base was mixed on how sailing damage should work so they couldnt really win either way. they chose to fully go with the player damage route but then started to backtrack

meager flame
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They also keep trying to protect some sailing economy and the wider game balance of sailing which is a joke

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Because there isn’t wider balance

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Sailing is just a side game with almost no integration beyond just absorbing materials from other skills

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None of which is related to things sailing npcs drop off the top of my head

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Unless they’re referring to I guess just cannonballs? Lol idk

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They’re already building the silly fort of it’s like this because we didn’t do anything for too long how can we possibly fix it now

south void
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The only reason for me at the moment to want to do sailing (salvaging) is to get lvl 87 to do frost dragons. Everything else I'm not interested in.

meager flame
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Like realistically

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Let’s say we could just smash sea creatures tomorrow at twice the rate

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Where do we think that would create a huge problem

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We worried someone will get some ray barbs to actually try trawling?

south void
meager flame
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Some of sailing is a little interesting but idk if it’s actually good

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Like with trawling it’s like if when you wanted to try wc you had to kind of farm for and slowly build your axe starting at bronze

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It sort of feels like they maybe overloaded the progression in some places with asking you to do a lot to build really simple things

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And didn’t get back around to adding in the progression for maybe the higher end sailing stuff yet

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Where the rest of the game isn’t really like that you’re probably gonna go to a shop somewhere and grab your early game axe and get into chopping

bronze kernel
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Problem with sea combat is always because it's tied to boat HP too

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That's also a consideration

meager flame
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Also with cannons and player damage at sea they just fail the vibe check and haven’t realized it yet

bronze kernel
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They could have made cannons fire at 3 tick speed

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And not make every single creature like a bird have 1000 HP

meager flame
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Players don’t like to randomly do way less damage than normal and players will also feel weird about cannons not really hitting like cannons

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So

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The actual fix imo obviously is to allow full player damage but also allow cannons to just hit like you would probably imagine the cannons on your ship would

bronze kernel
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If you watch Settled's Sailing Locked account. The fact that even what is supposed to be the lowest level sea creatures causing such a massive struggle

meager flame
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Aka big

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They can make sea creatures have more hp to support your cannons doing cannon things that would be fine

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They’ve just been trying to do the limbo to avoid having them actually hit hard

bronze kernel
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Another issue you can say is how strong keels are

meager flame
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And can’t figure out why people don’t like the feeling of the results

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And it’s because they present it like a restriction or downside to them

bronze kernel
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It's like the damage was scaled on them even for "low level" sailing mobs

meager flame
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Like imagine you did full damage but your cannons just hit big cannon numbers like 100

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We wouldn’t have ever sat there feeling like we can’t do shit because our weapons are hitting 15s

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The other problem is that their time to kill or ttk target for all sea creatures is terrible

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It’s just slow

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Stop making people feel slow and weak

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And they will stop complaining

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Same with crewmates

inner pelican
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yeah it's one thing for the combat to just be sitting there, another entirely to make you sit there and watch your resources bleed long enough to question your life choices

meager flame
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Why are they so terrible they’re just a ship upgrade to us

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You should feel good that you upgraded to a better crewmate

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But instead you’re like great another moron to miss every cannon shot

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Lmao it’s insane

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But yeah if our boat was deadly and the pace was up

bronze kernel
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The problem was always the speed and damage

meager flame
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All those multi combat ship spots to fight almost anything

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They’d make way more sense

ashen yarrow
meager flame
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That’s the best part though with combat

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We are doing it ourselves lol

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We’re navigating and telling everyone what to shoot

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They just tripped and fell on the thematic idea of the npc doing it

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But the real gameplay was it was always you

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I kinda think they fumble that a lot tbf

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They have minor moments where they can’t decide if you’re the player or the boat

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Like in this weeks update where they clearly thought of you separately and your boat became a sea thrall to your shadow

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And people revolted

bronze kernel
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Sailing shouldn't have won the poll

meager flame
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I think they need to just accept that you are the boat when you’re on it as the captain

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Especially for combat

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If you can manage to tell everyone what to do and navigate and also attack with your normal weapon great but it should be about your boat

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The crewmates should do damage etc

bronze kernel
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I feel like we need more combat facilities

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Give us like a magical beam that fires from the mast or something

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And front facing cannons

meager flame
#

I think it’s interesting that we got directional cannons when the only cannon we’d ever had to use before this

#

Was a dwarf cannon that spins 360

bronze kernel
#

Or maybe even let us load up gnomish technology

#

Like gnome torpedoes

meager flame
#

So they could’ve just had us fit dwarf stuff to our boat for convenience

bronze kernel
#

Let me have the most ridiculous fantasy combat battleship

meager flame
#

But yeah basically jagex free the boat

#

Make the boat strong enough that players can do normal damage and it’s still about the boat

bronze kernel
#

I think forward facing cannons where the salvage/net slot are would have also been cool

chrome lantern
meager flame
#

Let combat pacing go faster significantly

#

And people will be chill

chrome lantern
#

Err yesterday

#

Whatever

limber creek
chrome lantern
#

The only uses for sailing are trawling and teleporting to places that you now are forced to go to because of sailing clues

meager flame
#

They just designed ship combat like they were afraid someone might have fun

#

But it doesn’t have to feel like some kind of massive burden lol ships can just do damage, npcs could die at speed and crewmates could be helpful

chrome lantern
#

Oh and I guess the Sailor amulet as a trivial unlock almost as strong as the crafting cape while extremely beyond dirt cheap

meager flame
#

Idk how it even happened it’s like they had the devil on their shoulder at every turning point

#

What if we had crewmates to help but they sucked and wasted your cannonballs

#

Etc lol

#

Omg what if we had cannons but we couldn’t afford to fire them

#

Let’s put a bunch of sea creatures in multi but players can’t do any damage

ashen yarrow
#

Lets revert the cannon changes and add 15 flat armor to all sea creatures KuradalEvilGrin

meager flame
#

lool it’s actually funny

chrome lantern
#

Honestly not sure why any of the krakens we currently have are multi tbh

#

90% of them will never see a ship because people will never fight more than one at a time

meager flame
#

Idk why they’re multi when my ship is either immune or getting ass blasted to the point I’m not sure I can take one of them and be making a good choice

ashen yarrow
#

multi is nice when your boat is upgraded enough to sit inside 10 mobs, but if you are getting hit constant 6-10 damage it wont work

chrome lantern
#

Yeah what I really mean is like

meager flame
#

That loops back to what I was saying though

chrome lantern
#

Why do we have like 30 krakens in a field instead of like a few of them spread out enough that you can actually fight one at a time

#

And not just hop worlds for the one safespot

meager flame
#

If our ship was actually deadly and the combat pacing was way up in terms of time to kill

#

Multi makes way more sense

#

Because you’d just fly in and they would be doing damage but so would you

chrome lantern
#

I’m not sure why Jagex feels a need to keep kph the same either

#

When the entire issue was that sailing combat was slow and unrewarding

ashen yarrow
#

the original intented drop rates would have been balanced for over 5x faster kill speeds

meager flame
#

I honestly think that it was supposed to be fast but someone infiltrated at the last moment and ruined it all

#

Everything is setup for it to be fast and then someone just said no

ashen yarrow
#

i think they wanted slow kill speeds since it made normal loot table easier to balance and looting sea creatures with current system would be pain

chrome lantern
meager flame
#

The sea creature looting thing is like

#

A shame

chrome lantern
#

Like if 8x more common ray barbs was fine, then why is it fine to leave the other drops super rare

meager flame
#

They’re putting us through bad gameplay for thematics

#

Hate to see it

chrome lantern
#

The craziest part is how they keep looping back to the fact that this is only initial release and we’ll get stronger stuff later but then pretending like the insane drop rates somehow make more sense with that basis

meager flame
#

The best part is that players should just let them know updates should be good and fun on release

chrome lantern
#

That would directly be an argument for why the initial rates are way too rare

meager flame
#

Not 4 years from now once they make more updates

#

There’s really no good excuse for it to be bad at any point

chrome lantern
#

They wanted a system that felt like clicking cows or goblins in lumbridge, but then forgot to make the cows and goblins and made that the same system you use to punch corp

austere mulch
#

And behind it all, with full intent to release stronger cannons, they put a 92 sailing req on dragon cannon and locked it behind a terrible, completely unjustifiable grind 💀

#

With how popular salvaging is as a training method, the barrels being above 200k is a testament to how unreasonably rare they made them

meager flame
#

if i had to pick out one thing that's causing them problems its probably perception on multiple levels

#

on the dev end they're clearly too attached to trying to be like

hard axle
meager flame
#

grounded in the old old old feeling back in the day where dragon was the best armor and weapons and they were basically rdt stuff

austere mulch
#

I’d be surprised if the devs that made sailing engage in sailing combat with the sheer disconnect they seem to have with it

meager flame
#

where everything was very brain dead slow and simple

#

they tried to put that into sailing and its pretty much the poison pill that caused everything that people bitch about now

austere mulch
#

Like… if they’d just log in and participate in it for more than 16 seconds, they’d be like “yeah this sucks”

meager flame
#

and for the player side the way they percieve the combat they're in

#

jagex really did their best to present it in a way that feels like

#

now that im on a boat my character sucks at everything and the game got way slower and more costly

#

they took a very negative angle on everything basically

austere mulch
#

Just wait until 2032, trust me bro. It’ll be so good then

#

We have plans

meager flame
#

im just concerned that they actually got caught up in a loop like that

#

like when i was laughing earlier its like they had the devil on their shoulder for every decision

#

they really did that with just about every part of sailing

#

its just scary because like

#

why do they think good game design is making everything suck

#

do we really need a downside or some significant burden to accompany everything

hard axle
#

downside is fine

austere mulch
#

I’m positive they had a moment where they were so proud they even got sailing to work at all, in the first place, that they were excited to push it out asap

Not realizing that that sense of accomplishment for making such a challenging system function does not translate to player enjoyment

meager flame
#

i think the downsides are like

#

useful tools when used at the correct moments

hard axle
#

tradeoff is the right word yeah

#

they fuck it up constantly now because they're too afraid of actual balance pissing off players HmmPepe

meager flame
#

i dont think you need a cost/benefit analysis for every single step of every single thing you do

hard axle
#

like ancient essence + vbow

austere mulch
#

It’s like they got step 1 [make it function without breaking things done] and pushed it out before step 2 [make sure it’s tun]

#

Not to say that there aren’t redeemable qualities of the skill, because there are

meager flame
#

for example in a vacuum lets say we want sailing creatures to die in 1 minute on average

#

they devised a set of circumstances that basically has the player making choices on several things all at once

#

lets make the player character much weaker

#

lets make their ammo cost a lot so they probably use a lower tier of ammo

#

lets make sure they waste tons of it because their crewmates hit for lower damage and miss a lot

#

etc

#

so you can tell they're coming up with restrictions and ways to tell you that you can't really do what you want or expect and you're gonna have to wait

#

they really didn't have to do all of that they could have just made cannons hit hard

#

npcs have a lot of hp

#

and your character could've done normal damage and the npc died at the same time they wanted without giving you this huge sort of

#

list of negative things holding you down and making it feel like you're not able to do what you'd really want to do

#

its really interesting to me that they immediately opt into doing stuff like that because it changes how people feel about it

#

even though the real practical difference isn't very large

#

and then honestly beyond that

#

they got feedback that its really just too slow

#

and they kind of seemed to try to ignore that

#

but they got roasted so they'll probably change it now

austere mulch
#

The amazing part of it all is they were given essentially the exact same feedback in the beta that they’ve been getting since launch and still missed so dramatically

#

If you have tens of thousands of people delivering the same message of “hey man. This sucks for these reasons” and the result of what is “well, maybe they just need more time with it. We’ll leave it as is”

That’s just crazy

#

You can have a vision as a dev/team and execute on that vision but if everyone except yourselves are telling you the vision sucks, at some point you have to set that pride to the side and make some big boy changes

meager flame
#

maybe it just looks different for jagex but as a player when i log in and see something and can determine that it would be best to simply not participate until they make tons of changes

#

that means that its very obviously bad or at least unfinished to the point that i already know whats going to happen to them and the scale of change they'll eventually have to implement

#

it would probably be easier for them to just accept it and get to it lol

#

rather than reassuring themselves by saying maybe they just need to try it for longer

chrome lantern
#

Also I just noticed and laughed at the fact that the veiled krakens have 15 armor while the armored krakens have 0

hasty shard
#

sobbing

tacit pendant
#

They didnt even need to go the high health route

icy relic
#

Another content cycle wasted on sailing, there's no saving this shit

tacit pendant
#

Slayer asks the player to essentially dynasty warrior 12 foot tall demons and shit. And the player, without the help of a huge boat, mows through 100s in 30 mins or whatev

austere mulch
#

literally nobody sees it the same way

south void
#

I remember when sailing was just an April fools joke, oh how the years go by.

winged mantle
#

The joys of being told "the rates are fine"

#

As people eat their sailing slop and undercooked sailing progression

chrome lantern
#

Here’s a forward of a previous message I sent about his specific comments

#

@austere mulch

winged mantle
#

Idk how you can play and iron and think that's a healthy perspective or way to go about balancing. To husky

chrome lantern
#

That sounds like something you would say

#

xd

winged mantle
#

Ya

chrome lantern
#

That was the message you sent immediately after I forwarded it last time

winged mantle
#

😂

#

At least I'm consistent

austere mulch
#

dragon tier boats also arent intended to just be a cosmetic flex

tidal cove
#

Seeing a few posts trashing Sailing with no helpful solutions so here to say thank you Jagex for trying to get the skill into a good place, don't get too caught up on balancing focus on gameplay.

austere mulch
#

they are intended to be a valuable upgrade

#

so equating the two just starts off with a dishonest comparison at best

chrome lantern
#

They have a contradictory stance where they say, “you don’t need a dragon boat because you can do everything without it” but also say “dragon boats won’t be the top tier”

#

It honestly reminds me of PNM where they called the orbs flex items instead of recognizing they were just problematically rare

#

(and still are)

meager flame
#

i mean i see where they're going i just look at them crazy for it

vernal valve
#

idk why he has this stance but he's consistent if nothing else

meager flame
#

you know how getting a barrows weapon is way easier than getting a dragon spear

winged mantle
#

Having to do sailing because they added sailing clue steps - when people would say "just don't interact with sailing if you don't like it"

austere mulch
#

the extreme of that is like saying you dont need high combat stats for inferno because it was completed at level 50 or whatever the current lowest is

meager flame
#

they want to recreate that

#

in the future

#

and i think they're nuts

austere mulch
#

you dont need high combat stats for jad because it was completed at level 3

meager flame
#

but they're basically setting up to rehash the entire progression from way back a million years ago

#

when dragon was bis

winged mantle
vernal valve
#

which is genuinely insane to me

#

but they've spoken out about their intentions on stuff quite a bit

meager flame
#

i mean i'd get it if a lot of people didn't immediately recognize it because like

winged mantle
#

I've done horrendous grinds in the game. Sailing itself the clogs, the sheets etc are out of the realm of reasonable

meager flame
#

most osrs players probably haven't played since back when all of that actually happened to know

#

but i have no idea why they want to roll it all out the same way again

#

the reason a lot of that stuff happened is because they made mistakes and learned from them

chrome lantern
#

Here is the Q&A that section I transcribed/forwarded was from btw

limber creek
#

sailing just feels like the groundwork for olderschool runescape tbh.

vernal valve
#

boaterschool runeship

chrome lantern
#

Same one where they also said Trawling was designed to be horrendously awful xp

winged mantle
#

Like not current day osrs?

meager flame
#

like sure you could reenact d chains from dust devils being some insane number and kq being the more reasonable attempt to get it

limber creek
#

nah just being a doomer nvm

chrome lantern
# winged mantle Wym

I think he means to say that people will get fed up enough that they ask for older versions of osrs without stuff like Sailing xd

meager flame
#

and then release your sailing barrows items where you realize that drop rates should probably just be more accessible on some level

#

but like

winged mantle
#

It just felt like intentional artificially inflated time gating

meager flame
#

we already did that why do it again

winged mantle
#

They needed to make sailing a smash hit but they just shot and missed so so so far away from the wide hoop

#

Over ambitious and underdelivered

vernal valve
meager flame
#

i think they think they're doing it the right way to make it feel "old school"

#

by just repeating things that were done then corrected

winged mantle
#

I would have preferred sailing release with good boat movement and progression - add combat later when it feels good

vernal valve
#

they wanted Sailing on release to have 'endgame' boat parts to 'flex', and long grinds for people to go for, but very obviously DO NOT WANT to commit to anything on release being the top end of the skill bc that'd strangle future design space

#

but these goals are very blatantly contradictory

chrome lantern
#

I think there’s just a gross misconception of what “old school” does or should mean

meager flame
#

i mean its very on the nose

#

its literally dragon

chrome lantern
#

They took it to mean that it should be undeveloped and slow with no mechanics

meager flame
#

again

#

in both situations lol

#

it seems mega intentional

limber creek
#

let me just pop my turbo on my boat real quick so i can pick up these crates who god knows how their hitbox works while i swing the front of this thing into a crazy looping fit

winged mantle
#

Sailing should have been front and foremost "is this fun"?

chrome lantern
#

But then gave you infinite xp from salvaging and trials so you could safely ignore playing the game and still max

winged mantle
#

The skill isn't fun

meager flame
#

i mean its like the sailing combat stuff i was saying earlier

limber creek
#

the exploration of sailing was cool. like finding all the stuff for the bonus exp lol

winged mantle
#

It has aspects

chrome lantern
#

Charting was neat other than the mermaids but was too single-time

meager flame
#

it could be faster with better pacing more damage and hp higher kph etc exciting even

winged mantle
#

They could have made sailing clues obtained from sailing activities that you solve at sea

meager flame
#

but they decided they needed to create a million trade offs and drawbacks

chrome lantern
#

The fact you needed to unlock 5 tiers of new activities didn’t make charting any more exciting

meager flame
#

and failed the vibe check

winged mantle
#

Make combat movement - prayers - unique cannon attacks

meager flame
#

people need to feel like they're doing something and not like their boat is a huge anchor tied around their neck

#

while they try to figure out how to get something done

chrome lantern
#

It just meant you have to go back 3 times when you learn how to tell what wind is or how to dive (that you already learned from a quest)

vernal valve
chrome lantern
tidal cove
#

There's no mega thread with those solutions and algo pushed posts that just complains, Jmods reads the posts but should only acknowledge the ones they take from, might help if Jmods just react to a post to show they saw it.

chrome lantern
#

Anchor

meager flame
#

its just the setup for the joke

#

you dont need the anchor facility

#

because the anchor was the skill all along

#

its even on the icon

winged mantle
#

We don't get any feedback when a post or feedback is seen and acknowledged

meager flame
#

tbf they got a lot of feedback

#

they even know it

limber creek
#

even if they read everything the fact remains of the fix they implemented.

winged mantle
#

They knew

limber creek
#

exactly lol

meager flame
#

if you read the blog they mention how they allow players to do full damage because players told them sailing combat was slow

#

so they know people think that

#

now they immediately then tell you they buffed hp to make it hopefully the same speed because they dont care what we think

#

but

#

the important thing is that they showed us they know what we think

chrome lantern
#

Yeah it’s insane that they took, “combat feel slow” to mean “make numbers bigger but still just as slow”

winged mantle
#

Like i got the sailing lvls i needed and stopped doing the content because it was unfun and the grinds would be too long

vernal valve
austere mulch
vernal valve
#

the blog is just sort of blatantly wrong in a lot of ways

#

i really have no idea what they've been cooking

limber creek
vernal valve
#

they're not actually correct about the impact of their own changes

meager flame
winged mantle
meager flame
#

i dont even blame them because i also didnt know this until yesterday but

#

flat armor doesn't stop magic damage

chrome lantern
#

I don’t even know what changed about cannon/cannonball stats because there’s no comparison in the post and the wiki is already updated

meager flame
#

and i bet anything that they also

#

had no idea

limber creek
#

100% i only got 99 for boat pvp that was mentioned. and i realize now. that i couldve waited a few years perhaps LOL

winged mantle
#

Got my new enforced emote clue items and sailing lvl reqs and noped out

vernal valve
meager flame
#

because if you actually look at the stats on that stuff

vernal valve
#

this is not relevant to the increased kph for the old mobs

meager flame
#

they set it up like you were supposed to use this heavy range weakness etc

chrome lantern
meager flame
#

and then they were like you know what

winged mantle
#

I rushed shellbane gryphon for pet whilst others trained the skill

meager flame
#

what if we just dropped a nuke on that with flat armor and magic was 3 times better

winged mantle
meager flame
#

it makes no sense lmao

limber creek
#

i gotta get a task for shellbane ca's lol

vernal valve
#

even the Armoured Kraken doesn't have armour

#

like they didn't go back and add armor to older sailing mobs afaik

winged mantle
#

Made a list of "come back to these when it's fixed"

chrome lantern
#

Don’t give them ideas

vernal valve
#

it's literally just the Veiled one with a random 15 to the dome for 0 reason

meager flame
#

ya i think they potentially just didn't actually test anything

#

which sounds crazy

winged mantle
#

Bottled storm was on the list

meager flame
#

but you know

#

if you actually try sailing combat seems reasonable

#

i wouldn't have released it if it was my work

winged mantle
#

They tested but not as players

meager flame
#

assuming i tried it

vernal valve
#

part of the issue is that their list of changes are fundamentally incompatible, like, on a logical level, with their goals

winged mantle
#

Not as people that have to interact with the raw skill

meager flame
#

yeah but on some level its crazy right like

vernal valve
#

they said KPH should be untouched at the top end and slightly buffed on the low/medium end, but also, they've made gear scaling matter significantly more for sailing combata

chrome lantern
#

Bottled storm is like the only useful thing from sailing other than trawling and it’s only useful because they keep making clues suck more with no added value/loot to rewards

meager flame
#

even if you play it super out of context

vernal valve
#

these are things that cannot all be true at once

meager flame
#

if im sitting here and im just hitting a kraken for like a minute

#

and neither me or the kraken are doing anything

#

im like wtf this is boring what is happening lol

chrome lantern
#

Ok I go sleep bye

winged mantle
#

Why aren't there big ass sea creatures you have to dodge with your ship, hit their weak spot and then exploit for a time

#

Much better than what we have had and currently have

winged mantle
tidal cove
#

might have those later, the basics has to be right first

vernal valve
winged mantle
#

They failed the basics

vernal valve
meager flame
#

i've come to the conclusion that they just need jesus honestly im not sure what else could save them at this point

winged mantle
#

Redo

tidal cove
#

flat armour should get skipped if you harpoon or heavy range

limber creek
#

Hopefully next time a skill gets proposed more of you vote no.
Ik it may be hard given its not a wilderness update.

winged mantle
#

Sailing combat should have the fundamentals of land combat - movement - prayers - dps - healing

meager flame
#

like if everyone tells them its too slow and they say yeah but we don't think so

#

im not sure what else can be done

winged mantle
limber creek
#

I as well voted for shamanism. I figured itd be a summoning clone they could just play off of.

#

but id vote no atp

winged mantle
#

They should have started small

#

But what can ya do

meager flame
#

i still think sailing was the right choice in terms of like

#

what they could do

#

but they need to start meeting that potential

winged mantle
#

The soups flavour is out of whack. They added too much salt

meager flame
#

they actually did a great job with ship movement

vernal valve
meager flame
#

but they just didn't really do anything else that i'd say is really really great

#

trials are a great demonstration of the movement too

winged mantle
#

I just think sailing was too big for a first new skill

#

It's like many skills in one

meager flame
#

i just wish that they were brave enough to have seen that ship movement is the best thing they did

tidal cove
#

capital ship when? Carrier/flag ship for clan armada please

meager flame
#

and then made movement core to combat

#

instead of it just being whatever this shit is

winged mantle
#

Yeah

vernal valve
#

it's strange, because sailing as a skill is extremely ambitious, but almost all of their design choices were very conservative

limber creek
#

i just could care less about the ocean in most games

#

i teleport to places or talk to an npc and teleport there in most cases

tidal cove
#

once we can sail near Draken castle imagine if the vyres send out their fleet if you cross them

#

make areas threat level more dynamic

meager flame
#

i dont even really know how they decided this is the combat like

#

moving your boat is fun why aren't we dodging stuff or running away/chasing the npcs

winged mantle
#

I think they ran out of time

#

With a lot of sailing things

meager flame
#

like lol why is it about standing still and counting the cannonballs your crewmates waste

austere mulch
#

all sailing ended up being for me is new teleport locations lol

winged mantle
#

Had to release

limber creek
austere mulch
#

people point at firemaking and other skills, but I at least still use firemaking for clue steps

#

its also the best pure elite clues method in game

meager flame
#

thats why the clue steps for sailing are there you gotta sail to teleport to your clue

#

integration complete enjoy your 3 years of dev time

austere mulch
#

the sailing clue steps are just teleport to mooring point or via fairy ring/spirit tree

winged mantle
#

Some more transparency would have been helpful to swallow the sailing is a work in progress pill

austere mulch
#

its like how teleporting to the farming guild for the master step isnt actually using farming

winged mantle
#

Released to us in a beta form

meager flame
#

i think almost everyone typing already agrees with this

#

but they should've kept sailing combat hidden lmao

winged mantle
#

Yeah

meager flame
#

and just released it later when it wasn't ass

winged mantle
#

Bring things out when they are ready

#

Not buggy multiple patches doom and yama style

#

I love this game, i appreciate the jmods but god dam sometimes it feels like so much gets missed

hard axle
#

Sailing will never be used as high unlock reqs tbh

tidal cove
#

port tasks could use some expansion, each port master had some flavor tasks when assigning em but it's just fetch

meager flame
#

tbh it should be just because

#

its like one of the most accessible skills to level up

winged mantle
#

Port tasks if gave rewards like hunter rumours would have been amazing

hard axle
#

Not only is the skill much faster than Agility, but even Agility they're too hesitant to lock content outright behind Agility shortcuts.

austere mulch
#

of all things to delay for more dev time, sailing combat is like... the most in your face obvious choice

hard axle
#

So good luck to Sailing being relevant

meager flame
#

i think it being so easy is a reason they could lock stuff behind it

#

not many skills let you just turn on your pc and leave the house for 30 minutes for exp lol

winged mantle
#

Hear me out - teleport your boat if you are close enough to the water

#

Don't need a dock

austere mulch
#

💀

tidal cove
#

what if instead of 8k gp/exp you help em long enough they give you a lead/key piece to a stash that held meaningful ship upgrades?

meager flame
#

you thought the pnm run back was bad

#

just wait until you see the hidden island whirlpool boss

austere mulch
tacit pendant
#

Agility has entered the chat lol

tidal cove
#

if you manage to finish the trail you'd get bottle storm/metal sheets enough for redhull

hard axle
#

about ironwood

#

and various islands

meager flame
#

tbf a couple of those islands were created to be as annoying as possible

#

like the rosewood one

austere mulch
#

agility at least gives shortcuts that are generally helpful to have unlocked and the returns on time invested into the skill is paid back many times over with the passive benefit of energy reduction/regen

meager flame
#

i just wish they had done boat teleports in a cool way

#

like i wish i could just drop a beacon or build it in the ocean and have a dock in my house i just sail through my own portals for

#

to get to them

#

it would just look cool

#

but instead i sadly

#

talk to an npc and give them some gold

south void
#

What annoyed me the most was sailing to those two islands with the mooring points, then not realizing I had to physically click the mooring points for the necklace to update the teleport option to get back there, I teleported away and realized I had to recover my boat and sail all the way back and click the mooring point 🙄

meager flame
#

or use a regular teleport if the boat is already where i need it

tidal cove
#

make teleporting your capital ship extremely expensive in upkeep, also guards would patrol their region to destroy your buoy of infiltration

#

imagine if you tried that on Castle Draken and they put price on your head

#

since you wanted to shell them

meager flame
#

im surprised if i dont click the screen every 10 minutes that my crewmates don't mutiny and make me pvp them like a wizard trio clue battle just because everything else about my boat has some restriction to make things annoying

tidal cove
#

also crew shouldn't work for free, I need to feed them Herb roasted Marlin and rainbow crab with the best rum

meager flame
#

tbh that might be too exciting for sailing though

tidal cove
#

it'll insta sink all the fish we trawled, feed them Krill slop and you'd be thrown overboard your ship don't come back

meager flame
#

im tempted to make that a game suggestion

#

let us kill our crewmates

tidal cove
#

you should, so now you can either farm them have have them help you farm

meager flame
#

its kind of the natural progression after seeing what they do to your cannonballs

white narwhal
#

The idea for a droppable beacon buoy is kinda cool ngl

meager flame
#

ya that one is like a real suggestion i think it would've been cool

tidal cove
#

drop anywhere at your own risk, I'd just raft and drop wouldn't risk sloop or more expensive future ships

white narwhal
#

Even if we can’t have it in the open world maybe some sense of it later could be integrated into something with sailing. Interesting idea to play with if anything

#

Maybe an upgrade to the anchor

tidal cove
#

was fun, back to angler paint logging, please also update trawling instead of 2t add more gameplay on facility/crew upkeep and higher level decision making

#

but appreciate everyone keeping things constructive

white narwhal
#

Goodluck

languid ravine
#

why does magic bypass flat armor?

normal temple
jagged marsh
#

That's just odd

normal temple
#

maybe so that barraging wouldn't be massively nerfed by flat armour

jagged marsh
#

Idek why they would choose magic in particular

normal temple
#

like armoured zombies that have 1 or 2 armour and elite black knights that have 7 armour

normal temple
#

or maybe they just wanted one combat style to have a niche as an armour-penetration style

bright anchor
#

So I'm wondering, is there any particular reason why a crewmate assigned to fixing the boat, un-assigns itself after the boat is fixed up, and doesnt idle at the job? Yet Any other position on the boat thats not the case?

noble crow
#

Yeah that'd be on my list of feedback as well

bright anchor
#

I mean, whats the point of having a crewmate fix the boat when hp gets low, but you still have to tell em to do it constantly?

#

the 1-2 hp extra from each kit isnt it.

noble crow
#

As someone who starting doing ship combat since the update:

  • What Unify said
  • Bounty tasks need to be way longer
  • Telegrab delay needs to go away so it's consistent with the rest of the game
  • There needs to be a non multi combat way of fighting
bright anchor
#

The non combat 100%

noble crow
#

Besides that. Pretty good i think. There could be an argument about the drop rates. But it is what it is i suppose

bright anchor
#

I'm gettin absolutely shafted at vampyre krakens w/o the safespot.

#

And thats with a completely maxed out boat

noble crow
#

I don't even think drop rates are that bad. But knowing i also have to do 20K Frost dragons for a single boat after hurts

bright anchor
#

Droprates for baracuda paint definitly have to be revisited.

still sundial
#

I would say their biggest mistake is adding very relevant upgrades behind ship combat when it's still in such basic and infantile state. people would accept sea combat being barebones if it wasn't so necessary already.

#

especially mixed with the terrible drop rates

gaunt minnow
#

What is going on man

#

Someone help me please

bright anchor
#

I've done 260 marlin runs on tempor tantrum. And a bunch of em on other courses. So i've passed droprate for baracuda paint. And its just friggin painfull

still sundial
#

barracude paints isn't even the longest to obtain I am pretty sure

gaunt minnow
#

It’s a cosmetic

#

Who cares about the drop rate

still sundial
#

but yeah the drop rates on those can be wild

bright anchor
still sundial
#

since its not necessary

noble crow
#

For me main issue is the dragon sheets/ nails

gaunt minnow
bright anchor
#

I got to 99 sailing before I even started salvaging for cannonbarrel

noble crow
#

I just wish we got like a message answering these concerns in a future blog post. I am constantly here like "should i wait? Should i not? Should i skip the maxed boat entirely?"

bright anchor
#

I cant speak from an iron perspective.

noble crow
#

If it's not happening i'd also like to know haha

bright anchor
#

But I recon drops should be increased a tad from what I see for now. And maybe nerfed slightyly when the next itteration of sailing content is releaseD?

gaunt minnow
#

There’s not really any value to it yet

still sundial
#

well cannon barrels have another source now (although the source may need some adjustements)

ashen yarrow
#

dragon sheets and nails are issue for irons if you do not want to kill frost dragons or want all boats maxed

gaunt minnow
#

If you’re wondering should I skip the boat you probably have bigger priorities on the account that a pretty much cosmetic (at this point) boat

ashen yarrow
#

for nonmaxed ironman frost dragons give good prayer xp

noble crow
#

Tbh i think it's an issue for mains as well. I play 2 accounts and i simply thought a maxed boat is far too expensive for the minor upgrades.

gaunt minnow
still sundial
#

I like that maxed boat is a flex on iron tbh

gaunt minnow
#

It’s only a flex because it’s useless

bright anchor
noble crow
#

Paints should be the flex, not core boat upgrades hahaha

gaunt minnow
#

You can do everything on a non maxed boat

bright anchor
#

The combat boat may as well been a paper boat. As without safespotting ,you get shafted regardles.

ashen yarrow
#

you can do everything in main game without maxed gear too ancestralhmm

bright anchor
#

I'm talking about vampyre kraken

gaunt minnow
#

Which you don’t need to do anyway once you’ve maxed your boat

ashen yarrow
#

if you 1v1 the kraken you take 60-70 damage to boat per kill with full rune tier ship (not using shadow or ayak since those make it even faster kill)

bright anchor
#

Maybe boat combat could be closer to how trawling works. You have to move your boat every now n then, and good movement could improve dodging attacks chance

ashen yarrow
gaunt minnow
#

Yeah I still need to get tbow and scythe so I’d rather do that than speed up my boat by 5% which I literally never use

#

But play how you like

ashen yarrow
#

like if you get twisted bow after already doing everything does that make twisted bow useless because you already did everything

gaunt minnow
#

No because I’ll still do PvM once I’ve got tbow

#

But I will never sail if I don’t absolutely have to

ashen yarrow
#

you can still do sailing after dragon tier boat too

gaunt minnow
#

Nty

#

Sailing avoiders on top

bright anchor
#

I recon the design thought that went into the "fix" for boat combat may have been the wrong approach. Instead of looking at JUST the attacks/defensive/numbers aspect. Possibly a mechanical aspect would make it actually more interesting.

ashen yarrow
#

the issue with "fixing" sailing combat this early on is that they need to balance everything without the future mechanics. Honestly just changing the player damage from rng lottery to flat 30% damage and adding the cannonball changes without nerfing crewmates with sailing level scaling removal would have had it in decent spot

gaunt minnow
#

The damage cap was weird

#

Doesn’t make logical sense that your weapons don’t damage sailing creatures

ashen yarrow
#

with 100% player damage and nerfed crewmates everything in sea has to be balanced with player gear in mind + 2 leagues buffed thralls on side

gaunt minnow
#

Well yeah that’s better than what it was before

#

That’s literally what we asked for

gentle badge
#

I think nerfed player damage is honestly fine, but cannons need to be the de facto best source of DPS and cannonball economy issues need addressed

ashen yarrow
#

it goes back to the argument that nothing in sailing matters when you just use max pvm gear to skip sailing

gaunt minnow
#

Max PvM gear should be good for killing monsters

#

That’s logical

#

Cannons being good is a seperate issue

meager flame
#

the problem that i have with them nerfing player damage is that basically

#

they're just baiting out the bad feeling for people that they're nerfed for no real reason

#

they could easily just make cannons do more damage and npcs have more hp so cannons are still better but you dont have some weirdly arbitrary damage nerf

#

and that would also fit the thematic of the fact that you're firing cannons

#

since they would/should do more damage than you anyways

gaunt minnow
#

I do agree dragon cannon should be close to or better than max gear

#

I don’t like nerfing gear though just to make cannons good

ashen yarrow
#

yes but those arguments are going against each other. Players cannot be majority of dps while cannon is also very good. they can keep player damage 100% but then cannons needs to be buffed to 500% damage and sea creatures have thousand hp and it goes back to same point as it was before

gentle badge
#

they also need to reduce multi zones massively

meager flame
#

i think beyond doing that so cannons feel like they're doing the most damage

#

they can then look at just having npcs die faster

#

because sailing is just too slow and boring atm

#

idk half of their problem is presentation

#

besides

#

if your boat actually killed npcs

#

multi makes sense

tacit pendant
#

Albatross do not need 1000 hp even if cannon dps was tripled

still sundial
#

I think they should also maybe consider treating NPCs separately. instead of raising all sailing NPCs HP by %, do it just for Krakens and Sharks, where it's imaginable that they'd have a lot of HP, and make cannons really good on those because of big hits. I think it'll be really strange if the result is that some seagulls have 300 HP in order to make cannons be good, perhaps those should be killed by regular weapons

meager flame
#

ya i do think theres no reason for them to defend the honor of random birds on the ocean

#

what would make sense is you drive past and they die instantly

#

not that they're somehow more powerful than a black demon

tacit pendant
#

We literally hit black bears for 3x their max hp on on land without cannons

gentle badge
#

idk turkey, I saw some seagulls fighting a turf war with crows the other day, and them shits are tough

meager flame
#

lmao

ashen yarrow
#

separate weaknesses would make sailing creatures unique and feel more interactive but players would just argue they dont want to bring 8 way switches and hop on cannon themselves depending on creature scronglydespair

meager flame
#

tbh i dont even really think players should ever be asked to get on a cannon

#

it seems weird like

#

you're the captain of the ship they have these crewmates why do they suck lol

gentle badge
#

I'm with you on that Turkey, I think we need to establish the boat as a natural extension of the player for combat purposes

meager flame
#

its fine if you've got a weird boat setup and like one cannon to let the player use it if they want

still sundial
#

another thought regarding cannons was that perhaps they should not be in competition with max gear but rather work more akin to special attacks. be able to shoot them with a long cooldown for heavy damage, and perhaps in between shots you should be using bows or mage

meager flame
#

but its strange that you get this huge debuff the second you decide a crewmate is on the cannon

gentle badge
#

captain gets the mounted harpoon gun/ballista

ashen yarrow
meager flame
#

i kind of think they made an error but i cant remember the game that did this to make the example

#

the basic concept though is that you can't ever get strong enough to make it feel like you're progressing

#

in the game im remembering the game would just level up with you so it didn't matter what you did

#

in sailing everything just has enough hp from the start of anything you'd actually attack that it just feels like

#

you're never going anywhere

gentle badge
meager flame
#

tbh i almost agree with gnomonkey about this stuff though

ashen yarrow
#

with the range str change based on old max hits crewmates at 90+ sailing would be hitting 34-35 instead of 26 with rune cannonballs

meager flame
#

when he said this is too big of a problem for something that just doesn't matter enough compared to updates

#

that they could make instead

#

which sucks to say but lol

#

sailing combat is cooked

gaunt minnow
#

Sailing is cooked

#

Can we go back on it

gentle badge
#

depends entirely how their labor is divided between different active projects tho

gaunt minnow
#

All this time and effort put into sailing when they could’ve just released multi revs

#

Smh

meager flame
#

i feel like they should fix it because they're just in too deep like

ashen yarrow
#

crewmates on rune cannonballs when from 22 max hit to 26 max hit while attack speed got 40% slower

meager flame
#

if they spent 3 years on sailing and this is how it ended its a massive failure

#

so they're sorta obligated to get in there

#

we already lost tons of updates for this

gaunt minnow
gentle badge
#

They should put together a few solid plans and let us test each of them in a PTR

gaunt minnow
#

So it’s a win for jagex

#

‘Wow osrs has a new skill and it’s SAILING!?’ gasp

meager flame
#

i dont really think its very marketable like it sounds cool but

#

the skill doesn't really let you play if you aren't already on an osrs account and progressed

gaunt minnow
#

That’s not true at all

#

It has very little requirements and the ship upgrades cost almost nothing up to dragon, maybe rune too for super low levels

meager flame
#

you should look at the level requirements for the parts

gaunt minnow
#

For irons, yeah

meager flame
#

so basically make a new account and buy your way through sailing with all of the zero gp you own while knowing nothing about the game

#

not sure thats gonna work out

gaunt minnow
#

That’s not what I said but sure

still sundial
#

Turkey is talking about marketing to completely new players which I think makes sense

meager flame
#

ya sailing is appealing to someone that already plays or at least has played the game

ashen yarrow
#

you could say same about anything in osrs, you just buy everything from ge and maybe complete couple quests

gaunt minnow
#

You think sailing isn’t accessible for new players?

#

Is that what we’re saying here

meager flame
#

yeah thats why nothing really sells the game to brand new people as like a feature

gaunt minnow
#

🤦

still sundial
#

I would say it's more accessible to completely new players than most updates tbh

#

except like cow boss

meager flame
#

you have to become a longer term player to really get in the game

#

the one big one i'd say that is for them

#

are the leagues

#

tons of people that don't even play the game play leagues

still sundial
#

you can at the very least do some charting on your level 1 raft if you care

gaunt minnow
#

On the contrary I think leagues is very overwhelming for new players and aimed more at the end game players who are getting bored of those super long grinds

meager flame
#

i only know that leagues go crazy for people because i see it happen more or less

#

tons of people i raid with on wow or play with in other games actually play osrs leagues

#

and have never played the real game

#

or if they did they got bored of it

#

and tbh i hate it bc i wish i could say they dont care so i could get more main game updates but

#

lol

#

its great at attracing traditionally non rs playing people

gentle badge
#

sadly true lol

gaunt minnow
#

That’s cool, I don’t actually know anyone like that

gentle badge
#

because it's the one version of osrs that respects your time

limber creek
#

Oh boy time for another limited time game mode

gaunt minnow
#

What attracts new players to leagues though?

#

Surely they couldn’t care less for the cosmetic rewards

#

Those players can’t be playing longer than a few hours

still sundial
#

I wouldn't really say it's new players, but there's an audiene of "seasonal" players who only sub for the limited time gamemodes because they're so fast and they get to feel OP. plus it also appeals to a big portion of active playerbase as well

gaunt minnow
#

Yeah I can see that for sure

meager flame
#

usually the people it grabs are the people who play every start of the season in poe

gaunt minnow
#

That’s not new players though

gentle badge
#

it's the easiest time to convince someone to try the game

gaunt minnow
#

I’ve thought about playing rs3 leagues for example but I have no idea how to do any pvm there, no interest in the cosmetics and can’t see myself playing for longer than a few hours

meager flame
#

theres like a crowd of people that almost surf seasonal modes in games like diablo poe osrs leagues etc

#

and they just rotate through stuff like that

tacit void
#

Have they announced anything regarding a DT3 quest in the future?

meager flame
#

sort of i guess?

gentle badge
#

questline isn't finished, so sorta

meager flame
#

it wouldn't be called dt3 most likely but they confirmed we're getting our version of ritual of the mahjarrat

tacit void
#

Surely that cant stop the questline at DT2

meager flame
#

it actually didn't stop at dt2 as is

tacit void
#

Yeah its a big cliffhanger

meager flame
#

the new raid will have a related story and wgs is another storyline happening concurrently and they'll all meet

#

in the final quest

south void
meager flame
#

ya you essentially have to either get a lot of gp somehow or suck it up and level several other skills

tacit void
#

Too bad the new raid is giga end game, but i will enjoy it on leagues in 2028

meager flame
#

im pretty sure theres also another quest between the last one and right now

#

im totally guessing but that's all probably 2027 content

#

since they've been consistently moving that story forward

tacit void
#

Cool, the future is looking bright 🙂

meager flame
#

i just cant imagine what the rewards are going to look like

#

they definitely set a big expectation if you look at all of the bigger quests leading up to that finale lol

gentle badge
#

ancienter magic and ring of even more shadows

limber creek
ashen yarrow
gentle badge
bright anchor
#

I've thrown a smal post about my thoughts in #game-questions regarding the state of ship combat if anyone cares to have a peak.

meager flame
#

you get all kinds of stuff from dt2 bosses to tds to muspah a spell book from dt1 and so on

#

like honestly if they weren't releasing a raid this year i wouldn't have even been surprised if it had unlocked a raid or something

#

lmao and even saying that this next raid is related to the questline

gentle badge
#

yea I wouldn't be surprised either

#

let us boss rush all the mahjarrats

#

cept hazeel, cause he's my homie

meager flame
#

im kinda surprised they never added more ancient magic spells

gentle badge
#

I think there's a high likelihood we get some new ones at the end of the questline

#

but thinking of new useful spells is hard so idk

meager flame
#

i also suspect they might be saving the prayer book for then too

gentle badge
#

yea definitely