game-update

[quiet plank]

Time between upgrades doesnt matter. What matters is the difficulty of getting the upgrade

[fringe mist]

Hey if you were interested in my suggestions for renaming earlier I made a post here

https://discord.com/channels/324132423636090880/1473283780532768901

comment on it for support and awareness

[minor whale]

Zaryte Vambs give less bonus than this
Necklace does
Venator ring gives less bonus than this necklace does
Both are older slots

[chrome lantern]

It matters how it sits in the game and progression and economy

[cloud iron]

This is also a factor, but time, difficulty, accessibility should all be considered

[minor whale]

You're complaining about something ridiculous

[meager flame]

tbf those items are why this one gives more

[cloud iron]

high end upgrades should be low access, the longer they take to release, the better they should be, the better they are, the harder they should be to obtain

[meager flame]

a lot of people really didn't like the ring for example because a lot of the time it just didn't do anything

[chrome lantern]

What do you mean by low access?

[quiet plank]

From a game design perspective time doesn't matter at all

[chrome lantern]

This boss is slated to be very challenging

[true talon]

After all these years, i finally win

[cloud iron]

low access meaning if they're not untradable they should be expensive or locked behind a lot of reqs

if they are untradable they should be difficult to obtain

[chrome lantern]

You mean like a GM quest and a hard boss?

[quiet plank]

Crazy they just snuck that in there

[austere mulch]

Ring, necklace, armour, gloves, mainhand weapon, spec weapon

That’s 6 “slots” for each of the 3 combat styles

If we were to get 1 major upgrade in 2 of each every year, which is a lot, that’d still be 9 years between major upgrades per equal slot for each combat style

[cloud iron]

either high skill reqs or high cost due to low drop rate from a difficult boss

[chrome lantern]

If you’re the sort of player eyeing up the Inferno or in the middle of your Phosani grind, you’ll feel right at home here.
It's not like, awakened dt2 level

But it's one of the hardest non-raid encounters we'll have

[austere mulch]

Time between upgrades is for sure one of the smaller considerations

And rightfully so

[true talon]

Donwside i lost my method to grind to 99 mining

[cloud iron]

how often do we hear that and it turns out to be totally false. think yama

[meager flame]

i do think thats an interesting difficulty comparison

because thats what they said about yama

[true talon]

as i was doing amyethyst arrows/darts lol

[chrome lantern]

Also it's comical that they talk about "in the middle of your Phosani grind" as if that's something people do

[meager flame]

almost identical

[cloud iron]

lmao exactly

[drifting ginkgo]

they said this about yama too lol

[meager flame]

so its like

do they mean how hard those bosses actually are

or do they mean its way easier but you can opt into something to make it harder

[cloud iron]

Jagex doesn't understand the difficulty of their own bosses much of the time

Yama was a total flop for that reason. high end mid tier at best

[drifting ginkgo]

hope they make it a hellish 10 minute boss fight, time to drop 50hrs

[chrome lantern]

At the same time though what do you want them to write

"No guys, we mean it this time!"

[drifting ginkgo]

pnm my beloved

[meager flame]

honestly maybe they just shouldn't say things like that or i guess for yama

[cloud iron]

write what's true? it's not difficult. if they don't know, don't use definitive language

[meager flame]

they could've said it had optional difficulty for greater rewards or something

[cloud iron]

regardless, this range ammy is another disappointment and it's not even released. if accuracy isn't important as others have said here, why nerf it. it should be something low access, high str, higher accuracy. nothing game breaking but something meta changing until gear for other styles release

they try too hard to pre balance things and it makes them boring

if it should come from a raid to be that powerful, then save it for a raid and give the arrows some more juice

[chrome lantern]

We talked shortly ago about how we weren't really sure why the accuracy were reduced in the first place

Since it was a negligible change

[cloud iron]

comes off as trying to please everyone that's complained about how powerful this new gear might be. to me at least

or +20 is where they were originally and they made it higher to compensate for the inevitable pearl clutching

[lament ridge]

OSRS relies in its entirety on things never really becoming obsolete though, pushing bigger and more impactful rewards means everything else loses value, not saying I agree with the pearl clutching but there's a lot of things they have to balance, and (hopefully) many more years of upgrades to come

[meager flame]

thats why its an upgrade

and honestly they figured out upgrades with masori/avernic treads

[true talon]

Didnt all they change was -2 accuracy on necklace and -3 accuracy on seekers?

[meager flame]

should just stick to the script on that one and they'll be fine

[drifting ginkgo]

Things not being bis anymore is ok tho as long as it still has a place.

[true talon]

i dont feel like they nerfed it much

[cloud iron]

just because it's a complicated issue to deal with doesn't mean the solution needs to be a safe one

[drifting ginkgo]

Like bandos is not bis anywhere but you still see a lot of people using it because torva expensive and not that big of an upgrade

[meager flame]

bandos is also an upgrade for torva

they did kinda have a small breakdown in their logic though

oathplate is probably too good

[drifting ginkgo]

for sure lmao

[meager flame]

they also miss some opportunities sometimes

like burning claws should probably be able to be added to d claws so that d claws would be as good as they say they are in blogs

[lament ridge]

Sure but i dont think the problem is making other things not bis, the "problem" is that making the necklace even better means all content that involves ranged becomes a big step easier

[meager flame]

they pretend d claws are like this

raid level reward amazing dps spec when the reality is

[lament ridge]

Which is fine in isolation, but if every upgrade has to be a big huge cool upgrade then in a couple years you can afk tank zuk (to be super exaggerating with it)

[meager flame]

they're 1 of 4 very similar dps options for spec weapon raw damage

and only one of those four comes from a raid

[cloud iron]

in actual 07 jad was a challenge. now jad is a joke. eventually zuk and inferno will be more of a joke than it already is. we need harder, higher level content eventually

[lament ridge]

I agree, and I think over the last few years it has gotten significantly easier, I'm just saying I can understand them wanting to stall powercreep as much as possible

[drifting ginkgo]

yh i think old content getting slowly easier is fine if we get new, harder content as well

[meager flame]

eh it wasn't really that much of a challenge back then lol

[minor whale]

Wanting new harder content while also asking for every upgrade to be this massive dps increase is silly

[meager flame]

it was exciting but i also killed it in a few tries on dialup so like

[cloud iron]

do you not understand my point

[meager flame]

was it really that hard

[minor whale]

Gotta be incremental or literally all the fun hard content people currently enjoy and say is the best content is gonna be more than trivialized

[gaunt minnow]

They’re regularly adding harder and higher level content I don’t think that’s a concern at all

[cloud iron]

incrementalism is bad design

[minor whale]

It's not

It's the core of RuneScape since its inception

Literally always incremental upgrades

[cloud iron]

at this point it needs to evolve, we're hitting ceilings where any big upgrade shatters older content

they have to get creative

[lament ridge]

Incrementalism is what sets it apart from a game like WoW where every other year the entire game becomes obsolete apart from the latest content

[drifting ginkgo]

except the megarares which are just wild upgrades

[meager flame]

i think most people understand why its the way it is now if they actually played from way back then until now

[drifting ginkgo]

I really wonder what they can do with a raids 4 mega

[meager flame]

its not like its all theory a lot of us played through 07 becoming 11

and then we did it all again in 13

[cloud iron]

We're entering territory where they're going to have to buff hp above max again. This is the equivalent to the time when jumbo brews and absorption were released

obviously people don't want that. I don't

[lament ridge]

Okay but wouldnt wanting bigger upgrades make that even more of an issue? What would you want the necklace to do/be?

[vivid ruin]

Are you fellers saying we need an ososrs soon

[earnest vigil]

Even being trivialized, all content since getting massive upgrades have evolved to be much more fun at the high levels with these upgrades

Like x:0 gwd or the weird inventory setups you bring to cms or tob or inferno

And also the methods it unlocks is generally more enjoyable than 5 years ago

[gaunt minnow]

Isn’t this a problem that they’ve been trying to fix for literally 10+ years and their solution was ‘there is no perfect solution, we’re just going to powercreep’

[lament ridge]

That is the point though, it's fine to have these incremental upgrades. If you had had all these upgrades 5 years ago already then they'd have to drop upgrades like that too commonly and by now you'd be afking your way through inferno

[minor whale]

I'd rather small spread out power creeps over massive non-megarare drops

[drifting ginkgo]

overall gwd becoming solobosses and new group content being released to take that space was cool

Like gwd still has a place it's just not the same

[fading wave]

There's levels to power creep. And what osrs is doing is way less than the older days
Even the wacky event mode exclusive prayer book doesn't have soul split in it for instance

[minor whale]

Saying we're about to need to increase max HP while also saying we need even bigger power creep is just insane to me

[cloud iron]

If it takes ten years for an upgrade to a gear slot, the upgrade needs to be substantial, not incremental. also not game breaking, but meta changing. Would +5 range str and +30 accuracy break the game? I don't think so, considering we're also due for ferocious gloves upgrade. Which would place melee back above range where you'd want it to be bis.

balancing shouldn't just be stat wise, it should be around obtainability also. It's an incredible upgrade, so only incredibly skilled players should be able to get it (if it was made untradable, which imo it should be locked behind a skill challenge) otherwise, it should be rare and expensive, with barriers to farm it

[lament ridge]

But you just said we've been adding so many upgrades that we'd need a max health boost which is a bad thing. But now you want to add bigger upgrades?

Doesn't that contradict

[drifting ginkgo]

i dont understand why we'd need a max hp boost

[cloud iron]

I didn't say that, I'm saying that's where the game is due to incremental power creep without a creative solution

[lament ridge]

But now your solution is to have the same incremental power creep but in bigger steps?

[earnest vigil]

Why do you say this? Even if we doubled power creep, anecdotally we have only seen that power creep leads to new interested and generally fun methods. Even during big power creep spikes like toa release

[fading wave]

Am I mistaken or are you suggesting even more power creep and not a creative solution?

[lament ridge]

Because that is what +30 acc and +5 str would be

[cloud iron]

Time based, heavily barred big upgrades rather than many small ones

So in the instance that we have a piece of gear that's getting to be in "megarare" power range, it should require a big challenge to obtain, that way it makes sense to sit for a long time before anymore upgrades to that slot. Think infernal cape

[minor whale]

The difference between being angry at incremental dps increases and being happy with power creep is evidently 5 total accuracy across 2 items

[meager flame]

i mean this is the bottom line to it all

[lament ridge]

I'd argue the power creep has led to interesting and generally fun methods because it has been so minimal. If you double power creep it changes from making content slightly easier/giving more methods to making content completely trivial

[meager flame]

but that doesn't mean they have to go crazy and do it all at once

[cloud iron]

Everyone wants to stave off something that pushes the game into needing overmax hp and weird solutions like absorption, right?

[meager flame]

if you look at how they've managed osrs thus far

[minor whale]

Exactly
The incremental powercreep is straight up necessary to make not everything trivialized after 5 years

[meager flame]

they basically could complete the current horizontal progression opportunities which honestly is getting close to happening

[lament ridge]

So if power creep is so big that something like inferno becomes trivial, we'd also need new content that takes its place as "the big hard challenge"

[meager flame]

simply move up 5 to 10 levels

[cloud iron]

everything except the newest content is trivialized currently with the gear we have already

[meager flame]

and do it all again

[minor whale]

Begging for random slots to have megarare power upgrades is just really bad future prospects

[meager flame]

and we'll be here in 2040 talking about this game

they already figured out the realistic solution is that

[gaunt minnow]

Bad take, maybe this is true for the top 0.1% but that’s not who jagex should design everything around

[meager flame]

if they can get 30+ years in likely more without actually hitting a wall they already won

[lament ridge]

Again, even if I agree, your argument so far has been that it should be MORE trivialized?

[gaunt minnow]

This isn’t a highly competitive game like league or csgo, the top 0.1% don’t really matter as much

[earnest vigil]

Inferno is trivialized today, but it’s still getting more enjoyable since the way you do inferno has changed so drastically in a good way even though the power creep is insane

[fading wave]

I don't understand the need for over max hp or absorption unless this is a pvp only problem
But as someone who is on the outside of that world looking in, there's already a ton of things with quirks that work differently there and that seems to be the road these things are addressed by

Not a fan making bosses where you have a hard gear check to have enough hp to survive something or similar

[cloud iron]

bruh you just don't get it lmao. I'm, saying if they're going to release a new bis range ammy after 10 years, it shouldn't be so small of an upgrade that it's considered incremental, from some random boss in a new area, it should be a raid level reward from an endgame level challenge that has a high barrier to entry and obtainability. That way it's done with for the foreseeable future. They're clearly trying to make time for a creative solution, this buys them that time, and is also a sort of solution in itself

[minor whale]

I just simply disagree

[fading wave]

I still don't understand why the time matters

[minor whale]

It's not that I don't get it. I get it. I think you're just wrong.

[meager flame]

They’re not going to throw they already figured it out the game is growing and they kicked the real balancing problem down the road so far that it’s irrelevant

[cloud iron]

It's largely a pvp issue. with current gear and overmax hp, you can 1 hit anyone in 1 tick with the right rng. I know you pvmers don't think that's an issue, but the reality is that it will be something to contend with very soon. Creative solution there is everything releasing over the next few years having completely different rules in pvp than pvm. Which pvmers also don't like

[tender harness]

Pvp in this game has been a losing battle for a decade

[meager flame]

Definitely gonna stick to what they’ve been doing until it stops working

[gaunt minnow]

You’ve been able to 1 tic people for like 10 years now when they added the AGS, what are you talking about

[cloud iron]

do you pvp? are you aware how fast ttk is now across all brackets?

[gaunt minnow]

No faster than when you could 1 hit them with AGS and maul

I can guarantee that

[tender harness]

It will never be what it was, balance in pvp is not and has not been a thing, and sooner people accept pvp in this game is dog shit the better, so they either let it die, or actually fix it

[lament ridge]

Lmao

the 1% chance of one hitting AGS Gmaul means you might as well add items that make it 90% chance of one hitting

[cloud iron]

Yeah I didn't bother to mention pvp because I know the majority of you don't understand it because you're just bad at it. Pvp has a role in this debate but it's not the main issue

[lament ridge]

Its the same time I guess

[gaunt minnow]

That’s not what I said though is it dummy

[lament ridge]

Kinda did!

[tender harness]

No it doesnt. Fuck pvp in its current iteration

[cloud iron]

calm down

[gaunt minnow]

The point was that we shouldnt be balancing around pvp because it’s never been balanced

[minor whale]

Exactly

Pvp just needs separate balance

[fading wave]

I would point out that you brought out the max hp and absorb stuff...

[cloud iron]

This solution would be totally fine if reddit didn't explode because a pvp rule was different than the main game

[lament ridge]

So your point is its never been perfectly balanced so we might as well completely knock it over?

[cloud iron]

reddit timmy dies and loses his voidwaker because he didn't understand x y z

[minor whale]

I mean
It wouldn't be bad if it was different if there was anywhere in game that explained what the differences were

[cloud iron]

wiki is literally built into the game interface

[tender harness]

Balancing pvm drops around pvp is stupid yes.
Pvp needs separate balance but part of that right now is pvp in its current iteration is just a hot mess. No balancing will fix that

[drifting ginkgo]

talk to an npc and it opens a 20 page pdf

[chrome lantern]

You don't even know what you don't know to look up though

[gaunt minnow]

Damn you’re really struggling today huh?

The point is that you have a broken and unbalanced mode (PvP) so that should be looked at and future pvm designs should not consider a broken system

[lament ridge]

Sure but there is no reason to think that if I have a blowpipe, I should look up if it for some reason attacks slower in pvp only

[cloud iron]

Yeah idk why Jagex hasn't compiled a list. but that's a jagex failure and not a problem with pvp. it's a problem with the average player that takes no personal accountability for their safety in the wilderness

[tender harness]

What a deranged take

[cloud iron]

bros been victimized in the wilderness thats for sure 😂

[minor whale]

Personal accountability applies when the information is easily accessible
Not when it's obfuscated to the point the wiki doesn't even have all the differences listed

[lament ridge]

I agree in general though, but outsourcing entirely to the wiki isn't a great solution. There's nothing even indicating that some items will behave differently afaik

[minor whale]

Guys quick I'm losing the argument I gotta call someone a shitter at pvp to regain the lead

[tender harness]

Bros huffing that nostalgia too hard

[cloud iron]

pvp videos are the majority of rs vids out there. odablock is the most popular rs streamer. there is no excuse for total ignorance. And as with all things in the game, there are lessons to learn. You never know it all when trying content for the first time

[fading wave]

As for surge potions... the pvp stuff for those isn't even in the main body of the wiki page last I checked

[lament ridge]

Think there are a LOT of people crying about pvp for no reason. There being no indication of all the pvp specific rules in the game is a valid one though

[cloud iron]

just admit the lms bots run circles around you and sit down noob. Stop derailing the debate because pvp makes u angry

[tender harness]

Ive done enough wildy content i dont need to do more.
Predator prey is bad pvp, stop buffing nostalgia

[cloud iron]

who asked I don't care

getting back to the range ammy

[tender harness]

You're the idiot who keeps bringing pvp up

[gaunt minnow]

I mean he’s right, name one successful PvP game with a preditor prey system

Where people are forced to pvp without wanting to

[lament ridge]

Oh boy we're getting feisty in the Old School Runescape game update discord channel again

[cloud iron]

the nerf today was pointless, it's already barely going to change metas. it should be a little better than the original stats to begin with. if people think it's too powerful, it shouldn't come from this boss. I don't believe jagex's claim about the boss diffculty, which they're using to justify the ammy coming from it.

[meager flame]

extraction shooters exist

jagex just sucks at it

its actually crazy because that's what they desperately want to make the wild

[minor whale]

So much anger over 5 accuracy lost 😭

[meager flame]

and lmao idk if they even realize it

they're like 95% of the way to making an extraction mmo basically

[cloud iron]

they can't waste dev time on ideas that the community will shoot down, and since the community shoots down most things wildy related, they're stuck doing very safe things with pvp, which ends up sucking. community's fault pvp is in the state it's in, not jagex

[lament ridge]

The vast majority of that is player mentality though. People engaging with the extraction pvp part of the game and then complaining that the extraction pvp part has pvp to it

[meager flame]

its because their design sucks

they try to lure in people with rewards that didn't want to play an extraction game in the first place

[drifting ginkgo]

It's also the fact that I cannot defend myself when Im extracting bc i spent my 3 item budget on shit to kill the boss with

[lament ridge]

And the only way to get any wildy update is to make it sound lucrative enough for mains and irons, who then find out that it's lucrative because it has risk, and they dont want risk

[meager flame]

they're just running a massive experiment to see how rewarding something needs to be to make players that don't enjoy it or want to even do it show up and participate anyways

idk if thats super intentional or not

but thats what they've done

its no surprise their players hate them when it comes to that content

[lament ridge]

Because adding those rewards are the only way to make spite voters not instantly spite vote

[minor whale]

It's definitely not just the player's fault
If you make content that most people don't enjoy that's not on players for not enjoying it

And tying a carrot to a shit stick doesn't make the shit stick more appealing

Just the carrot

[meager flame]

truth is its just easier

[lament ridge]

Sure but people decide to engage with the shit stick and then start complaining when they get poo on their hands

[meager flame]

i could make you go click a rock for 100 hours if i were designing the game where you did nothing but stand still and left click it

[tender harness]

You already have to for diaries

[meager flame]

by just giving it rewards that are insane enough

[lament ridge]

I think uniques shouldnt be entirely unique to the wilderness (unless it's wilderness specific like rev weapons)

[meager flame]

designing fun is much more difficult

[chrome lantern]

Also optional content

[lament ridge]

But having higher gp/hr because of risk is fine, you cant then complain that the higher gp/hr brings risk

[tender harness]

Scorpia is a shit boss made worse by its location as example

[tender harness]

So is mage arena whats your point

[lament ridge]

If you want to catch black chins without the risk and reward of the wilderness, go catch red chins, that's what they are

[meager flame]

its just a fundamental battle that they never should've started

[lament ridge]

There's just so many people that want the reward part of risk vs reward and then complain that there is a risk part to risk vs reward

[meager flame]

they shouldn't be running an experiment to see what they have to give you to see if you'll do something you really hate

and that's just their wilderness design top to bottom

its all they did

[ruby geode]

Delete the wilderness and buff pvp worlds, easy

[drifting ginkgo]

but someones gotta hate their lives for the pkers to have fun

[cloud iron]

the wildernes is very simple. if you want to risk your life, you get better rewards. it makes sense. victim players just don't like that they have to be competitive against other players to have the best rates or the best stuff

all the complaining has left it all with mid tier everything in the wilderness, it's on neither extreme

so it sucks

[meager flame]

and tbh they're screwed now

[tender harness]

Or its like wilderness is a product of a time that's never coming back
Hard to believe I know

[lament ridge]

And no way to improve it because as soon as the word pvp is mentioned half the community starts screeching

[meager flame]

im sure they have a lot of "pvpers" that don't actually pvp and instead just enjoy farming people who dont fight back

who dont risk themselves

and now they're catering to that bs

[drifting ginkgo]

this really is a huge part of the annoyance

like you get jumped by bolters every 10 minutes, dont die, but you waste so much timeeeee

[cloud iron]

exactly. just take a look at manaless, this sad screeching example of a reddit timmy who gets victimized the moment he steps into wilderness

This is the archetype of the person who holds the community back btw

[tender harness]

Living rent free in your head

[lament ridge]

That is the risk part of it though, you can't do wildy bosses and expect to get perfect kills/hr as if its not in the wilderness

[pliant forge]

I vote no to every PvP update to get these types of reactions from people like you btw

[cloud iron]

I don't even know you or have ever thought about you lmao, pvpers are clearly living in your mind though

[pliant forge]

[cloud iron]

And you are why the game is stagnant and the community is garbage

[drifting ginkgo]

that is fine but they have no reward, u get 5x the money elsewhere lol

[cloud iron]

and also why I make sure to drop you noobs on sight no matter how much you beg to keep your spade

[median wing]

what is update for w day

[lament ridge]

Then don't do them! That is the point!!

[pliant forge]

I already got my vw and I cctv’d everything. I know you’re pissed

[median wing]

what is update for tom orrow

[tender harness]

I vote no because people want 2006 pvp with 2026 gearing
It will never happen
And people get hurt because you call that out

[cloud iron]

no surprise you're an iron

[pliant forge]

Like this dude is actually 30+ typing like a child on a discord for a browser game

It’s wild

[drifting ginkgo]

Early after wildyboss rework when they were 8m/hr it was fun tho. And now I just do em bc im missing 2 pets out there

[cloud iron]

Jagex pls look at what you're emboldening through your half measures with the wilderness! Please Manked, drop the hammer and release raids 4 in the wildy

[pliant forge]

Trying to relive 2007

[tender harness]

I would love for pvp to succeed, it just never will in this current iteration.

[cloud iron]

You're the type that's always wanted to pvp but never been good at it. Now you must spitevote to save your ego

[pliant forge]

Buddy’s name is tru khaoz

[lament ridge]

Honestly both you guys are perfect examples of why it doesn't work lmao, just two spiteful sides

[cloud iron]

In my case I want more content for everyone in the game. In his he wants to restrict content

we are not the same

[pliant forge]

🥱

You get content for the 5% of people that still pk in this game

[lament ridge]

You're calling people names for a video game opinion lmao, you're not helping

[pliant forge]

Oh wait you don’t because all your polls fail

Gg go next!

[tender harness]

Wants more content
Cries over 5 accuracy
Tries to flame people who dislike current pvp

[lament ridge]

Again, both spiteful people lmao

[pliant forge]

“Nooo think of the 5 zerks left in the game!!”

[cloud iron]

I'm just happy to know jmods will read this and see the sort of losers they give power to when they decide to capitulate to reddit. Fine with me keep exposing yourself lol

[tender harness]

Nothing to do with spite. Id love pvp to succeed, im just not foolish enough to think how it is in its current form will ever stay

[cloud iron]

You just lack imagination

Notice how the debate was totally derailed when pvp was mentioned as part of an issue related to something completely different though. And the derailing was done by pvp haters. It's always been clear who the problem players in the community have been

[pliant forge]

Jmods could care less about PvP btw it’s just 1 failed pker they gave a dei role to

Thanks for the content tho I’m sure you’re very normal back to lurking for me!

[lament ridge]

Idk man reddit says that Jagex spends most of their time shoehorning in pvp updates and spends all their time on it like it's a grand conspiracy

[meager flame]

i think they feel bad for pvp but cant justify doing anything

so they add in little things here and there lol

[drifting ginkgo]

I do wish we got that big worm in the wildy

[minor whale]

Every Wildy update they propose gets hate from everyone so why would they bother

[lament ridge]

It's a huge part of attention and viewership the game gets, they just can't make meaningful changes because there is so much instant hate, especially from people who will never engage with it regardless of what the update will be

[meager flame]

well yeah on some level they just have accepted that they're a game ran by the players and the pvp players got ran a long time ago

so they dont really get updates these days

[minor whale]

The 80% of the player base who doesn't enjoy pvp isn't going to suddenly enjoy the idea of it and the 20% who do aren't a big enough reason to make big sweeping changes when the minority engages with it.

[meager flame]

they still try to do something once in awhile bc they probably feel like they should

but its kinda cooked

[minor whale]

Yeah this
It's a community driven game and like it or not the pvp community is not able to drive anything lmao

[lament ridge]

I'm not a big pvper either, I just think it's fine to have some updates to the game that aren't for me specifically

[cloud iron]

Yeah funny thing about it is pvp is some of the most popular content from this game. It was the foundation back in the day too. Very important to the game but Jagex is beholden to types like "jerry". It's a shame, but the pendulum swing is inevitable. Pvp will have it's day

[minor whale]

Mmhmm

The pendulum swing of somehow converting half the player base seems a bit high hopes lol

[cloud iron]

No, it will be a strong top down stance in favor of pvp. despite what reddit has to say

[minor whale]

Are we just making headcanons now about Jmods

[meager flame]

i mean that probably is the only way to fix pvp at this point but

jagex has no reason to do that

[cloud iron]

I'm making a prediction. Because it's the only way it could ever go

[gaunt minnow]

No it won’t

[meager flame]

the risk/reward of coming into conflict with almost all of your players doesn't seem worth it logically

[restive siren]

Its really not the only way

[minor whale]

Yeah I doubt it lmao
But good luck!

[gaunt minnow]

PvP is too hard for 90% of the player base, it will never be as close to popular as pvm

[cloud iron]

There simply is no talking sense to pvp haters. So Jagex's only option will be to not listen to them and have confidence in their own design

[cloud iron]

Already is son

[gaunt minnow]

No it won’t kid

[lament ridge]

Idk I think integrity changes to pvp are fine.

Realistically a large part of people voting against pvp-related updates don't have any kind of constructive feedback, and they will never engage with it no matter what. It's fine to not take that into consideration

[dire mango]

I want whatever this guy is smoking

[cloud iron]

LMAO

[minor whale]

Why does everyone who mainly pvps and has these very strong takes all talk like this

[restive siren]

They can just let pvp die and lose a small portion of the playerbase. Thats a lot more likely than them antagonizing the majority

[meager flame]

you've just gotta brush up on your 2006 halo 2 lobby speak

[cloud iron]

We're the ones that actually care about the game and not being perfomative like the rest of the game

[minor whale]

It's like an accent that is noticeable immediately

[meager flame]

well minus a few words that are banned

[cloud iron]

The day pvp truly dies in this game will be the day it goes the way of Brighter Shores

[gaunt minnow]

This guys idea of pvp is bolt ragging at chaos altar ‘BUT MUH PVP’

[restive siren]

Idk what thats supposed to mean

[lament ridge]

Idk the two pvmers in the discussion earlier are just as petty, plenty of pvpers who are perfectly nice and respectful

Purespam might be the nicest streamer in the community and all he does is pvp

[minor whale]

It's just the words and phrases are so noticeable

[lament ridge]

That's fair, they're not doing the pvp side any favours

[minor whale]

If you frequent #pvp-discussion you'll see there's like a single group of people that talks very noticeably like that

[gaunt minnow]

With guys like this you can really see why the majority of the game despises pvpers

[lament ridge]

Although if you accidentally crash someone's pvm spot who "was banking" you'll hear a newly invented slur every time as well

[cloud iron]

Pvpers are genuinely some of the nicest and most generous people in the game. It's the pvm elitists that end up having the personalities they accuse pvpers of having

and I'm a grandmaster. pre toa I only pvped

[minor whale]

Oh yeah I'm not saying PvMers don't crash out it's more the verbiage is very noticeable

[cloud iron]

Done it all, can say confidently where the problems lie

[lament ridge]

Probably also has to do with pvpers getting nothing in updates and getting haha'd by the rest of the community for it, so they get spiteful and mean

[meager flame]

all you have to do is make people get competitive with each other for any reason and allow them to be anonymous

in any game

and you will hear all of that

[cloud iron]

very true

[meager flame]

i mean sometimes it'll happen in person too if you let them go crazy

i remember a dude standing on top of the station at a h2 event in probably like 2005

screaming at the other team and swinging his shirt around his head

it was peak

lmao

the refs are usually a little better than that these days though

[lament ridge]

Not even competitive honestly

[cloud iron]

exactly though. that shit is peak

games need competition, always

reddit crowd is allergic to it cuz they can't compete anymore

[lament ridge]

I used to work at a huge government affiliated company and we had some sort of company wide presentation, where you could leave comments on the stream with no name attached

And the things you'd see in the chat

From grown ass adults in a rather serious and boring company lmao

[cloud iron]

human nature

[lament ridge]

Not slurs at least but just LOOOL P*NIS LOOOOL

Ironically ^that was censored by the discord lmao

[cloud iron]

people think it's a bad thing to be ultra competitive in a totally sterile non violent way. yeah mean words and all that but is it really that bad

[lament ridge]

Which, fair enough

Company should havbe taken notes

[cloud iron]

they wonder why people explode when at every turn they're forced to comply with the sensibilites of the weakest links in society

[lament ridge]

I don't think mean words help in any way though

[gaunt minnow]

Some games need competition

Osrs is not a competitive game

Whatsoever

[cloud iron]

dog lmao. just don't get it

[cloud iron]

holy yikes

nobody listen to that guy, what a stupid thing to say

[gaunt minnow]

It’s not compared to pretty much any actually competitive game

[drifting ginkgo]

totally competetive tho

[gaunt minnow]

Like any moba, rts, fps

[drifting ginkgo]

Like the only reason getting blorva is satisfying is bc most people cant

[cloud iron]

mid tier player confirmed ty. go back to vorkath pls

[gaunt minnow]

Yes yes mid tier

[lament ridge]

Something like saying sit is fine, has to be in good fun

[cloud iron]

yeah saw that from a mile away

[gaunt minnow]

Says the guy who thinks osrs is competitive

😂😂😂

[lament ridge]

Calling someone a stupid monkey because you baited them into praying melee for the vw spec isn't helping anything though

[gaunt minnow]

So many professional osrs teams right

[meager flame]

did it for the culture

[gaunt minnow]

Funny thing is he has no intention of discussion or explaining his point, he just insults people and thinks he’s right

Average PvP Andy

[cloud iron]

You're not worth the time, you can't even grasp what you're talking about

[lament ridge]

You're... doing the same thing?

[gaunt minnow]

You think osrs is competitive!!!!

And I can’t grasp what I’m talking about???

[lament ridge]

Osrs is competitive?

[cloud iron]

That's correct

lmao

[dire mango]

tbf jagex has no idea how to set up a competitive pvp event.

[cloud iron]

bro thinks he's saying something

[lament ridge]

Maybe not your self-imposed definition, but it absolutely is competitive

[gaunt minnow]

Because it’s not a comp game

[lament ridge]

What makes a competitive game

[drifting ginkgo]

There can be competition without a ranking system and international tournaments

[cloud iron]

You simply have no idea what you're talking about

[gaunt minnow]

Think of all the competitive games:
dota 2, csgo, league, valorant, sc2

[lament ridge]

Sure, what about it makes them competitive

Because people compete against each other in it

[gaunt minnow]

Mate

[lament ridge]

Which you can do in osrs

[meager flame]

you dont have to be playing a huge esport to compete

[gaunt minnow]

🤦

[cloud iron]

pointless to engage he's 80iq

[meager flame]

people compete with each other over anything

[dire mango]

With a large enough "best of X" series the more skilled and consistent player will outperform the lesser one. Yes a BO1 is not competitive because of the huge RNG aspect.

[minor whale]

I think he means professionally competetive and not "people fight each other or go for challenges" competetive

[meager flame]

you can play coop games and people shit talk each other and see who can do the most dps

[minor whale]

With his example games

[gaunt minnow]

Yes professionally competitive

Ofc

That’s what competitive is

[restive siren]

The way most people play osrs is not very competitive but if you want to you can engage very competitively in it, its just semantics at the end of the day

[lament ridge]

Professionally competitive just means people get paid to do it

Plenty of that in osrs too

[cloud iron]

There are entire concepts you'd have to explain to this guy for him to begin to understand the argument, just let him say osrs isn't competitive like a brainlet and move on

[gaunt minnow]

No it doesn’t

Lmfao

[lament ridge]

You cant say something isnt competitive just because Faze isnt in it

[restive siren]

Competitive doesnt equal professional

[gaunt minnow]

I know

[lament ridge]

Then what does?

[gaunt minnow]

All the coping in here is tragic

Osrs is not a competitive game

[lament ridge]

Does it need to have a big organization behind it?

[gaunt minnow]

Stop balancing it like a competitive game

[lament ridge]

Because then cs wasnt competitive 20 years ago either

Even though it was practically the same thing

[meager flame]

nah cs had tournaments 20 years ago

[valid jolt]

beep beep

[meager flame]

sad to say we're that old

[lament ridge]

It would help if you could actually explain your thoughts so we had something to argue against instead of you just saying people are stupid

[cloud iron]

please for the love of God

[valid jolt]

can we go ahead and get this topic steered back in the right direction

[cloud iron]

THANK YOU

[lament ridge]

Yeah but osrs has had tournaments forever, that doesnt make it competitive according to them lmao

[valid jolt]

PUHLEASE ❤️ hehe

[drifting ginkgo]

How about that range ammy, huh

[valid jolt]

the only spice allowed is for stews

[lament ridge]

Right, game update
I dont actually pvp much, would the new weapon be a crazy potential spec weapon?

[minor whale]

It's good
Hope they change the look of it though

[lament ridge]

Guaranteed damage could go crazy no?

[cloud iron]

about the range ammy, needs a buff. as pyro said, maybe a new look. hopefully a cosmetic kit at some point. Should be a bigger upgrade though for sure imo

[drifting ginkgo]

already have that with the vw, think this is more a slammer on low def crush weak targets in pvm

[minor whale]

The new spec is sorta just
Bad

Like in general

It's on par with burning claws against crush-weak monsters

Which is very not good

[austere mulch]

Official high scores and speed boards open the door for competition in RuneScape

Just because it’s not competitive in the context of something like dota doesn’t mean it isn’t competitive

[valid jolt]

oo new range ammy?!

[lament ridge]

Ah fair enough, 56 melee str isnt all that I suppose

[valid jolt]

i live under a rock

[gaunt minnow]

That would be cool if you didn’t need to invest 500 days played to get to the point where you can compete

[drifting ginkgo]

let's not

[cloud iron]

thats funny.

[meager flame]

that actually is a minor problem for a lot of games osrs included

[lament ridge]

Might fire up cs right now and start competing, dont need any experience

[dire mango]

you can always compete at your own level. It's not like you're playing against Faker within your first 100hrs of playing League

[lament ridge]

Anyway, the range ammy

[austere mulch]

How much time would you have to invest to be at the top, skill or played games wise, in some of those other games you mentioned though

[meager flame]

its kinda hard to catch up and be doing the top end stuff when people start adding up decades of experience

cs has that problem

[cloud iron]

The range ammy should be better. lowering the stats to capitulate to the complainers like they alwaya do is disappointing

[gaunt minnow]

Yeah but those other games you can jump in and start learning immediately whereas here we’re looking at hundreds of hours before we can even start practicing

[meager flame]

but its also not as impossible as people think

[minor whale]

It's in a good spot and doesn't need to be even better to be worthwhile

[meager flame]

the hard part is being at the bleeding edge and getting better

[lament ridge]

And yet young people enter cs2 scene every year

[meager flame]

its relatively much easier to learn from them

[minor whale]

Before the pvp thing pretty much everyone was on the same page about incremental power buffs

[cloud iron]

it's only worthwhile because it's better, but it's not as good of an upgrade as it should be

[lament ridge]

Its not like f0rest is still running the streets

[meager flame]

s1mple is though

[minor whale]

It's as strong of an upgrade pure strength wise as quiver which is widely seen as being pretty busted good

[lament ridge]

Realistically, I watched Savix, one of the wow refugee streamers, get addicted to LMS like a week into his osrs career

[minor whale]

It doesn't need to be shelved for later to be stronger

[cloud iron]

it should be +5 range str and +30 accuracy for the ten years it's taken to get a new range ammy gear slot upgrade

[minor whale]

It's in a solid place without breaking anything

That's ludicrous

[cloud iron]

nuh uh

[gaunt minnow]

Yea that been super cool

[lament ridge]

100%

[gaunt minnow]

But I do think they’ve had their learning progression fast tracked due to their chats just guiding them through the game

[minor whale]

There's so many slots you can't just say "it's been 10 years" when that means it's 2 years per slot outside of weapons

We can't do +5 ranged strength to every slot every 2 years

[cloud iron]

what do you mean

[cloud iron]

That doesn't make sense to me

almost 10 years for ferocious gloves, 10 years for anguish upgrade

[minor whale]

Jagex pretty consistently does incremental upgrades to slots in order of the last upgrades

[cloud iron]

how long has occult been out?

[minor whale]

Ranged necklace has been 10 years but before that was quiver, masori, zvambs, treads, venator ring

You can't just isolate 1 slot and say it's been 10 years

[cloud iron]

and before quiver was what, 9 years?

and quiver was fairly big right?

[minor whale]

This new necklace is strength wise as strong as quiver

[cloud iron]

compared to assembler I mean

[lament ridge]

That's true. Although I can now say from experience, I'm not a high level pvmer at all, struggling through a handful of cgs is the best I've done

Going into LMS and actually trying to get better has made a world of difference in only a couple hours for 2-3 days. You'd be really surprised by how quick you can get somewhat up to speed. Definitely not everyone's thing though

[minor whale]

Combined with seeker arrows it's actually stronger dps increase than quiver

[chrome lantern]

Even without

[cloud iron]

in it's current state? then that's even more of a reason it should come from aspirational content and not some random (jagex deemed) hard boss

[minor whale]

Bruh

You keep moving the goalposts like crazy

[kind surge]

before quiver was everything pyro mentioned except for avernic

[cloud iron]

EVEN MORE of a reason it should be coming from something less accessible

[meager flame]

thats never going to happen anyways

[minor whale]

First you call quiver fairly big and then say new necklace is not strong enough

[meager flame]

jagex can't just only add end game bosses that are harder and the drop rate gets more unrealistic every single time they add an upgrade

[minor whale]

Then say necklace needs to come from new harder content and be even better

You're just throwing shit at a wall at this point

[meager flame]

they're gonna make hard bosses easy bosses and everything between and keep putting upgrades on all of them

so that players actually go do them

[lament ridge]

Lmao I just dont get why it has to be a bigger upgrade because its too small, but also needs to be from harder content because it's too big?

[minor whale]

If they want to make it come from hard content go ahead but they don't need to make it even stronger

[cloud iron]

this has been what I've been saying the whole time. it should be a bigger upgrade than it is now, and it should be hard to obtain to justify the power. You're saying it's already powerful enough to meet that threshold, so I'm saying ok, it should come from something less accessible then

[kind surge]

ranged got +10 ranged str in 2022 alone

from full masori + zvambs

current amulet looks fine

[minor whale]

It's better than quiver (which he said is big) but also not strong enough (so it needs to come from harder content) so we need to make it better and harder so it's betterer we than quiver and also hard?

This is just begging for bad levels of power creep for the sake of it

Necklace is good

[cloud iron]

imo it's too small, but if it's actually as big or bigger than quiver, then fine, it's big enough to come from something more difficult than some phosani level boss. PNM is not hard content

[minor whale]

Seekers are good

[gaunt minnow]

I’m happy with really minor upgrades, people will want them anyway because it’s bis

And it keeps power creep down

[minor whale]

And they're not gonna add a necklace to a raid and they've already said the encounter will be hard
We either let them cook and hope they're right or we just look at Araxxor which is honestly a fine place for Rancour.

Necklace slot has always been relatively easy to get bis in lol

[chrome lantern]

So it sounds like your only complaint is that you don't think the boss will be hard enough.

Which is a fine complaint

[cloud iron]

10 years of waiting should not get us an incremental upgrade, it should get us something substantial that has a real impression on metas. Currently, it will speed some things up and slightly edge out scythe in dps at tob. But melee is due for an upgrade too (ferocious gloves) so that is temporary.

[kind surge]

not really a fine complaint because the boss isn't out yet

[lament ridge]

It's supposed to be an endgame boss though, the only real bigger option is a raid, and a necklace doesnt sound like a big exciting raid drop

[dire mango]

+1/10 str/acc for non bows/cbows, +2/20 for bows/cbows.
new amulet is +3/5 compared to anguish so overall the upgrade is fine

[chrome lantern]

Yes but it's an understandable concern considering previous statements they've made about difficulty being egregiously wrong

[cloud iron]

dude how many times have we heard them say endgame boss and it's something easy. just look at the chart they put out for the new CA icons, they have stuff like yama as endgame

[cloud iron]

it's a fine INCREMENTAL upgrade, I'm saying it should be more than that

[lament ridge]

That I think is a fair complaint. I guess I'm just gonna take their word that it's endgame and hope they learned from Yama

[cloud iron]

I'd be excited to receive a new bis from a raid if it had raid reward worthy stats

[silk thicket]

Why tho

[chrome lantern]

I don't see why it's incremental when the amulet slot is already the strongest slot in the game for str bonuses aside from weapons/ammo and it's the strongest increase we've had since the masori body

[kind surge]

+3 ranged str is not insignificant at all

[meager flame]

i mean it is incremental but that's how they're gonna do everything

it would be dumb to do anything else

they're gonna try to hit the minimum upgrade to make you feel like you upgraded

so they can do that as many times as they can

[cloud iron]

because it's not like we got a new range ammy upgrade 4 years ago. it's been a DECADE.

Ok imagine this, we get a new strength cape over infernal after 10 years and it's +9 strength. infernal is +8. it's done in the name of balancing. That would be LAME, right? We'd want at least +10, ideally +12 minimum. But something matching the wait time, the power level, the difficulty to obtain

[silk thicket]

Ye that’s how u end up with shadow

[minor whale]

Dude
You can't focus on one slot being 10 years apart when ranged as a whole has been getting consistent upgrades

[lament ridge]

Okay but Inferno is one of THE challenges of the game (at least considered to be), Anguish is just from a high level mob

[minor whale]

If you make every ranged slot upgrade huge and not incremental now we've doubled dps in 10 years from just armor and jewelry

[silk thicket]

Don’t rly think that’s a great point
How many years between DKs and dt2? For +4 str

[minor whale]

It's so stupid to go "it's been 10 years" when the last ranged upgrade was 6 months ago and was also quite strong

[silk thicket]

How many years between jad and zuk

+4 str

[minor whale]

And then before that a year and before that a year and before that a year

[cloud iron]

The only reason this one is huge is because as I said earlier, we're hitting a ceiling where these upgrades are now shattering the difficulty of earlier game content

[silk thicket]

Torture we got after over a decade probs and it’s +2 str

Actually +0 vs str ammy

[cloud iron]

that's why the balancing is so tricky. so it's like, if you're going to go big at all, go BIG and not incremental. it demands a creative solution while also considering how long it's been between these upgrades

[minor whale]

You're just talking in circles
That's exactly why we don't need huge big upgrades

[silk thicket]

Yh that’s why power creep bad so why does adding more power creep not worsen the issue

[minor whale]

Because each upgrade is on the back of other upgrades

[lament ridge]

Yeah I agree with the problem, but your proposed solution just makes the problem bigger

[minor whale]

It's not like "ranged" is getting 1 upgrade in 10 years

[obsidian venture]

Looking at the blog, the adjustment to the seeker arrows and “rupture” is minimal. Still a good upgrade and makes sense following the non-raid power increase.

The crush spec kinda fills that niche which is alright but why is it at 60 atk? This kinda seems oddly placed.

A way to create d arrows is surprisingly hidden in the blog but I guess that satisfies irons. Not opposed to this as it’s better than the odd idea of chiseling bones or even armor for it. I hope it’s not too common or produces too many. Maybe might incentivize penny pinching mains to use this more.

Decent blog overall but would like the color scheme to change for the new rupture (not too opposed), and the name itself. Someone in the comments above had good suggestions.

The new fish sandwich seems very interesting and kind of refreshing for a powerful healing item but with a caveat

[minor whale]

God I hope the Darrow method is slow as shit

[cloud iron]

The ideal solution is any new big upgrade like this comes from aspirational content. That would totally justify the power and also justify the time between the next upgrade, buying jagex time to come up with creative solution to power levels like this

[lament ridge]

60 atk seems fine because of the str requirement, I guess they just go for crush = big strong

[minor whale]

Please be atatl-dart esque crafting method for the new Darrow source

Just super slow

Not worth doing

[austere mulch]

Melee needs more love than range anyways

[minor whale]

Unless you're just absolutely hankering for dragon arrowtips

[cloud iron]

Yeah, we need fero glove upgrade as well

[obsidian venture]

It should be slow yes

[minor whale]

Sartan gonna ask for new Ferocious Gloves to be +8 melee strength over feros

[obsidian venture]

Metas will shift slightly but that’s ok

Need shadow to be uncapped at Toa post rework

[austere mulch]

Melee str scales far worse than range and mage str, and melee is generally less accurate than ranged (mage too with shadow)

Yet since 2019, we’ve gotten 15 melee str added

[obsidian venture]

Tbow is at the heel

[lament ridge]

It IS aspirational content though, it's one of only 2 big content updates this year, wouldn't the only other option then be to only have 1 content update a year?

[austere mulch]

Vs every update giving tbow 2-3 maxes and shadow 4 maxes

And accuracy

[cloud iron]

I want powerful items that are hard to obtain if they're untradable, or expensive AF and have a high barrier to entry if they're tradable.

[leaden anchor]

Hey just to clarify on the teeth thing, I think we came across wrong in the blog, but the intent was basically to say "We might like to drop dragon arrowtips on Vampyrium but (Spoiler) there are no dragons on Vampyrium. We'd like to know how you feel about us using venator teeth as a thematic instead"

They're ultimately still dragon arrowtips just with a different coat of paint, irrespective of how many we choose to drop

[cloud iron]

How is some random "hard" boss aspirational? That's like saying Doom is aspirational content

[chrome lantern]

No dragons

[cloud iron]

Aspirational is colo/inferno/blorva/radiant/GM, items locked behind challenges

[austere mulch]

Vampyric dragon lore when

[leaden anchor]

Dragons but they breathe blood

[chrome lantern]

Dragons made of blood

[obsidian venture]

Why is inferno/colo in the aspirational section? Toa learners get them nowadays 😂

[cloud iron]

is that a real question

oh yeah fang kit, add that to the list

[obsidian venture]

I mean not aspirational by 2026 standards

Other stuff listed is moreso fitted to that

[cloud iron]

well for 95% of the playerbase it's aspirational

come on now lmao

[minor whale]

Also why does the necklace upgrade have to come from aspirational content
It doesn't need to be super strong by itself or be locked behind extremely difficult content
It's a necklace
They've never been a slot that's hard to get good gear in

[obsidian venture]

95% of the playerbase also doesn’t have hands

[cloud iron]

alright let's keep it somewhat serious

[obsidian venture]

I’m always serious

[cloud iron]

true tho

lol

[lament ridge]

Yeah it's an upgrade from an endgame boss, whereas the previous bis is from a higher level mob, seems fine to me

Exactly like Rancour and Confliction really

You can argue what endgame should be I guess, but same concept

[cloud iron]

It's fine but not what it should be imo. All items entering into meta changing, hard to obtain, power creep ceiling tapping territory should come from challenges. Actually now that I think of it

[obsidian venture]

Zenytes come from slayer mobs, so it’s fine the upgrades are coming for bosses outside of raids

Ranc comes from rax

[cloud iron]

pre anguish was what, glory?

[austere mulch]

Curious what your thoughts on Doom are, considering it sort of fills both buckets of being too accessible but also having an aspirational ceiling that most players don’t care to go for with the turbo deep delves

[austere mulch]

Fury

Aka cosmetic

[restive siren]

With good items only coming from challenge content wed only have like 5 items in this game that makes no sense

[obsidian venture]

I’m for pushing stuff to be somewhat gatekept but Jagex never has that intention

I’d like a challenge to reward something other than just a cosmetic

[restive siren]

And for the Vast majority of the playerbase something like pnm is a challenge anyways

[minor whale]

How about cow boss (the hard mode has nothing unique polled)

[cloud iron]

I just wish there was a "reach x delve level, obtain x aspirational item" from doom. That's what's missing from that boss. Even if it was just cosmetic

[obsidian venture]

Doom imo is a fine addition for the playerbase as it pushes them to switch prayers moreso, and deals with movement pretty nicely. However the drops were disappointing for when it was accessible and its very boring slop till deep delves. If they repolled the delve skip, with current knowledge, I would be for it

[meager flame]

i think they said that was a cosmetic somewhere didn't they

[cloud iron]

easy way to add multiple difficulty partitions to a single boss, doom was ripe for that sort of design.

[minor whale]

Hard content being cosmetic is boring I totally agree but that doesn't mean this upgrade needs to be from something that it was never intended to be, or made even stronger to fit a difficulty I made up in my head

[obsidian venture]

Doom also could have been something that introduced a new mechanic every x delves

But instead it’s just copy paste till you resign or die

[meager flame]

tbh i think hard content being cosmetic is the only realistic thing that can happen past a certain point

like

[lament ridge]

Idk shit like Blorva only gets done by 1% of the players, I think the current approach of BiS being hard (for most players) but the biggest challenges only giving flex cosmetics is fine

[cloud iron]

things that are both cosmetic and better don't have to have damage and accuracy necessarily

[meager flame]

depending on just how much you're challenging players at some point you wont be able to justify making exclusive content that the game is balanced around for like

almost nobody

[cloud iron]

could just be prayer, or maybe an effect that works with different items

the set effects thing is super underutilized, what if some aspirational items unlocked set effects and were otherwise totally cosmetic?

It's just a matter of being imaginative

[austere mulch]

I’d love if the devs (primarily Kieran, rice, nox please) could just go all in on a new pvm challenge that rewards a new untradeable BIS and also sets the bar for what existing pvm challenge can be

[lament ridge]

We just had a discussion about how wildy should get no content because only 5% of players go there, but now we're going to add absolute BiS to content only 1% of players can do 😂

[cloud iron]

YES

[austere mulch]

That’s what inferno did at the time it was released and it was and has been wildly successful

[cloud iron]

yesyesyesyesyesyesyesyes

I totally agree

[lament ridge]

Sure, but I'd argue it's only successful because it's 1 item

[meager flame]

i dont think its because its 1 item

[lament ridge]

If half the bis gear slots only came from the highest level pvm challenge it would get very controversial

[meager flame]

i think its because ultimately while it was hard

it was also practical

[cloud iron]

This is different. Runescape is a game where fashion and status are literally half the allure. I absolutely want there to be things that set me apart from other players, where people see my character and freak out at what I had to accomplish to get there

That's the magic of the game and what makes it really fun

[chrome lantern]

I couldn't care less about fashion or status

[meager flame]

like doing the inferno on release was hard and it still is hard relative to the rest of the game

[cloud iron]

That's a you problem and you just don't get what RS is about

[meager flame]

but it wasn't like "idk if people can actually do this" difficult

[cloud iron]

Were you there at the time?

Lmao

[meager flame]

yes

[lament ridge]

Sure, but that comes from Zuk helm and Blorva, not by having people be much weaker just because they cant do the highest level content

[cloud iron]

You've got an interesting memory then because seeing people with inferno on release was like damn

[lament ridge]

Needs to be in moderation

[cloud iron]

As I said, there are creative ways to make things beneficial without giving them straight up stats

[meager flame]

seeing anyone with it near release proves what im saying

you can push players way harder than that

[restive siren]

there is functionally no difference between a buff through stats or an effect

[meager flame]

i've played games where the best players in the world take two weeks to get the first kill

[cloud iron]

it depends on the effect

[meager flame]

rather than woox in 2 days with the inferno

[cloud iron]

of course there's a difference

[meager flame]

i think it was 2 days anyways

[restive siren]

what effects that would be cool wouldnt powercreep

[cloud iron]

maybe the benefit is that all cows die when you enter the cow field in lumby

[lament ridge]

You cant push players to click entangle on another player, what makes you think you can push Barrows Barry into doing things much harder than inferno

[meager flame]

the problem though is that if you keep scaling up eventually you will simply depart from anything most of your players will engage with in any form

[austere mulch]

Pretty sure in one of Kieran’s conversations around it he mentioned getting to a point wondering if it would even be realistically doable and came to the conclusion that “it should be possible, so the players will figure it out”

[meager flame]

and the inferno just wasn't on that level of difficulty

[austere mulch]

Granted, that’s a lot harder to do when the general skill level of the player base has increased substantially since then

[cloud iron]

could be many things. maybe something adds an effect to justi that when worn when fighting sara you have massively reduced prayer drain. it's power but not powercreep in the sense that everyone thinks of

[austere mulch]

So you do eventually hit a wall unless you can get rather creative

[meager flame]

like the level of content we have today where its just so crazy that nobody realistically ever does that outside of a few people

would be like the doom 6 hour recs

there are some people that try

but realistically jagex was never designing anything for you to get to upgrade your account

[restive siren]

sounds neither cool nor particularly useful tbh

[meager flame]

because you killed doom 200 times in 6 hours

its just nonsense they know they wouldn't be hitting enough players

[restive siren]

could have just said that you dont have a good idea either

[lament ridge]

I think people being goated at the game already gives enough benefits without locking BiS sets behind it

Cosmetic flexes are a nice middle ground

[austere mulch]

This is the real issue tbh. At the end of the day, they have to abide by a profitable business model to the best of their abilities

And it’s probably hard to convince the suits that “this content that maybe only a handful of players can do early on, but players will eventually develop and aspire to complete it - creating longevity and long term sustained activity is worth the investment”

[meager flame]

i think they'll generally always float around a difficulty where they want the dedicated/good player to have to try but go in with the assumption that 100% of them that do try will succeed eventually

[cloud iron]

They're acceptable for sure, something at least to show status and set players apart from others

[restive siren]

ping me if you have a point and are not just saying nonsense or insults ty

always the pvpers

[cloud iron]

You can't grasp the concept to begin with

Notice again, anti pvper derailing the convo

These people are a problem. back to reddit please

[lament ridge]

You're derailing the convo by namecalling though lmao

[minor whale]

You just say random shit then call people brainlets

You aren't contributing anything

You're just derailing then crying about derailment when you insult people and they get annoyed

[lament ridge]

Yeah agreed, and think that is fine too. Probably not good to have too many things that the majority of the players think of as truly inaccessible

[cloud iron]

I've driven most of the debate for the past hour. had I not jumped in it would have been "heh yeah they lowered accuracy" "yeh it's fine, heh"

[restive siren]

driving a debate by yapping nonsense for an hour isnt the achievment you think it is

[minor whale]

The debate where uh
Everyone said incremental is better than huge upgrades

Very good debate there

[austere mulch]

They could legit go with the easy route and have the untradeable reward be a player unlock of a second (or utility) ring slot

Obviously that would need to be looked at deeper from a reward space perspective, but I’d say wholeheartedly that just about everyone would be banging their heads on a wall to get that if the content called for it and feel proud of the accomplishment (assuming it were actually difficult) and happy with the reward, like infernal

[cloud iron]

What ideas do you have? None, just ankle biting

[austere mulch]

I think effects get into a sticky area where it can get really annoying to work with

Burn for example is really frustrating to try to maximize

[lament ridge]

Respectfully, your ideas have been constantly contradicting yourself and then insulting people who point it out lmao, I don't think you're the gracious presence you think you are

[cloud iron]

Jmods want to know our thoughts, I believe incrementalism at this point is bad. I've given it thought, you think it's fine because it works up to this point. That's the debate. it doesn't matter if 99% of people disagree

[restive siren]

i think the amulet is in a perfectly fine position to drop from this boss and at that powerlevel so i dont need to reinvent the wheel to change something one random person thinks needs changing

nobody here is agreeing with you

[cloud iron]

I don't need people to agree with me

[restive siren]

if you dont why do you keep arguing and insulting people

seems like you are a bit invested

[minor whale]

I mean at some point you've said all there is to say and everyone says "I disagree" we don't need to keep the convo going in circles

[meager flame]

jagex just hasn't mastered the art of making content that always stresses out the best players in the world yet

and i hope they never do tbh because the trick to it is toxic

like really toxic

[sharp cave]

Do they have to though?

[meager flame]

you just make it impossible and then use them as free QA

to tune it around their attempts

until you decide enough is enough and you allow it to be killable

[minor whale]

Like contracts on release lmaooo

[restive siren]

tuning something around the best players in the world seems uh

not like a good idea

[minor whale]

Remember when they made one of the Yama contracts literally impossible on release and then woopsie fix it

[meager flame]

if you ever wondered how most wow raid tiers seem to go on for a similar length of time and the players are always saying its the hardest ever

thats the secret

[obsidian venture]

It’s negligible so yes it’s fine lol

[sharp cave]

Thats better than making them too easy though

[valid jolt]

Can we not throw out insults to other members please?

[sharp cave]

Otherwise people will throw a shit storm when they make it harder

[hard axle]

We flaming? Let’s gooo

[minor whale]

I'd rather they not add something literally impossible that also costs money to try

[valid jolt]

You should be able to chat civily here without resulting to insults / name calling

[valid jolt]

NO

[obsidian venture]

I’m so back

[meager flame]

well their whole contract/orb idea was just a bad one

[obsidian venture]

Release me from my chains chat mods

[valid jolt]

NO x2!!!

[minor whale]

That's just not a good design method and pisses people off waaaay more knowing they wasted their money on something that wasn't doable

Or their time

[meager flame]

that is a symptom of jagex trying to do too many things at once

[minor whale]

Making things hard is good

But impossible no

[valid jolt]

https://tenor.com/view/rolling-eyes-gif-22773102

[meager flame]

like

[minor whale]

If they have to patch something to make it feasible then they fucked up

[obsidian venture]

I swear you’ll enjoy it

And then you can time me out for days

[valid jolt]

LMAO

[meager flame]

should jagex make super super super hard content that you complete just to say you did it and then mix that in with the economy of mid game players?

probably not

[cloud iron]

No surprise this is your take lmao

[sacred oracle]

[cloud iron]

bis items should be low access and hard to obtain

[meager flame]

that's how you create a system that ends up punishing the people who want to try the challenge and actually go experience the content you made

[hard axle]

Okay so, about the anguish 2.0 and seeker arrows. Those really aren’t super broken.

I personally think high end achievements shouldn’t be just cosmetics, but rather good tangible rewards worth learning and upskilling yourself.

[minor whale]

Not all bis items need to be aspirational content releases

[cloud iron]

This

[sacred oracle]

I saw the tiny nerf to the arrows and the necklace today. I wonder how they decided on taking away +3 and +2 respectively.

[hard axle]

And if you can only get powercreep from being good, that’s fine

[meager flame]

i just think theres a certain point where they kind of get forced into the cosmetic flex type of stuff

[cloud iron]

Another sensible player

[meager flame]

because it makes no sense otherwise

[hard axle]

I’ve been saying how if Infernal Cape was released in 2020, it would’ve been a cosmetic lmao

[restive siren]

thats an entirely different thing to tuning around the best in the world. best players in the world can do content miles more difficult than yama contracts and stuff, designing an entire piece of content for like 50 people doesnt make sense from a game developing perspective

[hard axle]

they’re too scared to make shit good

[meager flame]

i mean it wouldn't have been

they made colo after that

[cloud iron]

You just don't get it

[hard axle]

“Tuning around best in world” is questionable statement.

Colo was not tuned around the best and it was fine.

[minor whale]

This is fine and nobody was arguing against that

Sartan's argument was "it's been 10 years so this necklace needs to be a bigger upgrade and also come from bigger content like a raid to make it more worth getting"

[median wing]

what is tomorrow update

[meager flame]

they'll give you an upgrade for hard content they just aren't going to add bis and game balance around content that is more than just end game hard content

[restive siren]

maybe i would if you had more arguments and less insults

[restive siren]

yup

[minor whale]

He thought the necklace was too weak but also needed to be buffed and also come from harder content

[sacred oracle]

I don't think Jagex are afraid to make things good, I just think they're trying to cater to a wide variety of players. There have always been players who are much better at the game than most other people, and they deserve content ... but there's simply a limit to how much stat boosting and special items can be added.

[lament ridge]

Don't think it's a good decision for the game to make a significant amount of content that is inaccessible for 95% of the playerbase

[minor whale]

We can't just make every item crazy strong every release

[sacred oracle]

I think cosmetics are a smart way to reward the best players without power creeping the game.

[lament ridge]

Some sure, not a lot

[cloud iron]

If the objection is that the content isn't suitable for the power, then yes it should come from something like a raid or endgame equivalent

[hard axle]

I do agree that raids should be a bigger jump, but it’s fine for anguish to get a smaller buff for now.

Jagex just needs to not be a puss when it comes time for Raids 4.

[meager flame]

basically they're going to have reality creep in eventually at the high end if you go far enough with it

they aren't going to lose reward space for example so 20 people can enjoy the challenge

[hard axle]

I’m looking forward to Ranged Rancour personally

[minor whale]

Except you think it's too weak but also want it buffed and to come from harder content

It isn't intended to do that

It's a slot that is based on incremental increases and the slot has never been something hard to get

[cloud iron]

Nobody has said that. The difference for this item is that a) it's been 10 years
b) it's touching the ceiling that shatters older content

[minor whale]

You don't need every slot to be mega bis 3x stronger every 2 years

[lament ridge]

Again, touching the ceiling that shatters old content, so it has to be stronger

[hard axle]

I have expressed similar sentiment about Rancour being too weak

[lament ridge]

Somehow

[meager flame]

tbh that's probably how they judge they did a good job

[cloud iron]

and I disagree with incremental increases in this case due to time between upgrades and where the power level is at currently. I think either go big or go home, or just don't do it til a more suitable time in the future

[meager flame]

they want to hit you with the absolute minimum upgrade to make it feel like you got a worthwhile upgrade

[hard axle]

But that’s also because melee is substantially weaker than other styles in the big 2026

[meager flame]

so they're maximizing reward space

that's totally how they look at it a lot of the time

[cloud iron]

ferocious gloves are due for an upgrade too, so the range meta shift will be temporary

[sacred oracle]

I think Jagex devs are approaching upgrades at this point like doctors approach medicine: start with least intrusive treatment and set the smallest effective dose

[minor whale]

Ok and before treads, pegs were pretty shit so "treads should be +10 ranged strength it's been 10 years since last upgrade" and Zvambs hadn't had an upgrade since 2006 so we gotta make those +15 ranged strength it's been 15 years

It just doesn't make any sense to isolate slots like that lmao

[meager flame]

the only thing to really play with at that point is exactly how much of an upgrade does something have to be so that you feel like you got an upgrade

[sacred oracle]

Because they are super aware that reward space is dwindling at the top end

[cloud iron]

It's too safe

[meager flame]

which is something they're definitely fine tuning even still

[cloud iron]

We need new aspirational challenges with big rewards. Yama should have been what held us over but that was a total flop and botched release

[sacred oracle]

They aren't just looking at what will happen in game for one year or two years: they're planning for the next decade

[minor whale]

Exactly

[cloud iron]

Not at all what a duo endgame challenge should have been

[meager flame]

like they probably realized a lot of the time +1 range str wasn't hitting or only mage accuracy rings etc

[minor whale]

You can't just have each upgrade be monumental

[meager flame]

so now this range necklace gets +3

[cloud iron]

I'm not asking for each upgrade to be monumental

[minor whale]

You'll kill the game and everyone crying for new hard content will be pissed that what they used to enjoy is now afk

[meager flame]

which probably does fit the outline of feeling like an upgrade but not too much of one

[cloud iron]

If it's going to be another 10 years between range ammy upgrades, this one should be big

not incremental

[minor whale]

Except you literally are
"Necklace is 10 years old so make it bigger"

Guess what

The other slots

Have had similar timeframes

[sacred oracle]

And honestly, +3 strength seems pretty big to me

[minor whale]

So do those all also need to be bigger?

[cloud iron]

what other range slot is due for an upgrade even within the next few years

[hard axle]

Maximize my left nut

Blessing melee slot when

[cloud iron]

they've all been hit, we're not going to get anything else for range for a while

[median wing]

zaryte vambs plz

[lament ridge]

Dragon arrows are from 2007, does that mean Seeker arrows should be +50 str?

[median wing]

void should not be used

[meager flame]

i actually think this is soon

[median wing]

it's welfare gear and should be reserved for cosplaying as a nun

[sacred oracle]

I'm still waiting for second ring slot

[cloud iron]

not a piece of constant gear, different thing

[sacred oracle]

I've got eight fingers, ten if you count thumbs

[hard axle]

It’s effectively a +8 ranged str increase (at the very minimum), just fyi.

[minor whale]

Toxic blowpipe is 11 years old we need to double how good it is I mean it's soooo old it needs to be monumental

[meager flame]

blessing slot upgrades look like free real estate in a world where they're basically slowly but noticably running out of reward space at the current tier they seem to be trying to keep the game working within

[cloud iron]

weapon, not a piece of constant gear

[meager flame]

so i imagine we're getting those soonish in the sense of the next few years

[cloud iron]

So funny. try again please

[restive siren]

https://tenor.com/view/moving-goalposts-goalposts-changing-requirements-gif-25214446

[sacred oracle]

I'm not super excited by the blood moon rewards, but they seem sensible and mostly fine

[minor whale]

Basing gear upgrade strength off of time between upgrades is just not good game design lol

[median wing]

what blood moon rewards

[hard axle]

Yup, I’d agree with this

[cloud iron]

They are for sure. But they could be better in the range ammy's case

[sacred oracle]

I need someone to do math for me so I can know if crimson tetherball is something I should be itching to get

[chrome lantern]

Wasn't the really bad doom thrall proposal supposed to be ammo slot

[hard axle]

It’s like if Torva was +10 for body over bcp instead of whatever it was

[lament ridge]

They're using the same idea for this though, an amulet is a small bonus item, not a mainline peace of gear like armour or weapons, so it gets relatively small number upgrades

[meager flame]

the really interesting stuff is what comes after the blessing slots get worked on

[lament ridge]

You could just as well argue that the ammo you use should be a much bigger impact than a necklace you wear

[meager flame]

because i bet that will basically be the herald of the end for this era

[minor whale]

Occult for mage is up next, it needs to be +15% since it's just so old!

That philosophy is really bad and would kill the game so I'm very glad Jagex isn't doing it lol

[meager flame]

and after that they'll start just having to creep and rebuild it all at a higher tier

[lament ridge]

You're just using your own interpretations as fact

[sacred oracle]

I still see a surprising amount of resistance for the occult rebalance

It made sense to me

[chrome lantern]

45% shadow holyyyyy

[meager flame]

generally its easy to guess with some level of accuracy what the next few upgrades could be

[minor whale]

Making up a headcanon about how Jagex should design things when they've never once signalled they're even close to open to the idea of that is just silly

[tender harness]

what if;
we could break down torva with oathplate
and make crush torva

[meager flame]

you can just look at the dates on how long things have been bis

[sacred oracle]

I didn't love that magic damage percentage was redistributed to shoes, but then it was fixed by avernic treads

[meager flame]

like the ma2 capes are not long for this world

[cloud iron]

I hope so

[minor whale]

Yeah blue inferno when

[sacred oracle]

Yeah, mage inferno is coming sometime within next couple of years, right?

[median wing]

i hope blue inferno isn't hard

[cloud iron]

Too many things need new upgrades

[sacred oracle]

I actually thought it would be this year, but there's nothing on roadmap

[obsidian venture]

Endgame:

1. Imo they haven’t made proper endgame content in so long and which doesn’t have scuffed rewards. Colosseum for example has very weird rewards. Yama and Doom at a base are mid game.

2. Radiant grind and how it was structured was a repeat and a worse experience compared to orbs. Wouldn’t want to see another system like this again.

3. Jagex is scared of making proper progression content and or aspirational content farmable. This kinda makes sense as from a business viewpoint, they need to cater to the majority. However, I do hope Jagex one day locks something good behind a skill wall to promote gameplay. I doubt it’d be from raids 4, but they could make maggot king that boss

[median wing]

how is doom mid game

[minor whale]

At base

[meager flame]

well

[cloud iron]

void can do it

[median wing]

oh, like wave 2?

[meager flame]

doom is mid game in the sense that you can just opt out of the truly hard parts of it

and still get the rewards

[minor whale]

The low levels at which you can get all trade able rewards is delve 4

[meager flame]

kind of like yama

[minor whale]

Which is really nothing special at all

[median wing]

oh i see

[meager flame]

yama can be very hard or very easy depending on how you choose to do it

[tender harness]

by the power of 💳 anything is possible

[sacred oracle]

Endgame and midgame are notoriously subjective definitions, but in my mind, Doom is firmly endgame

Yama is a bit iffy

[meager flame]

i kind of think they'll lean into the optional difficulty stuff more

[sacred oracle]

Yama contracts are endgame, no question, but nothing in the noncontract fight is endgame to me

[cloud iron]

Yama is classed as endgame but is for sure mid game

[meager flame]

because it lets them create hard content without running into the realities of it being a business

its a good way for them to appease a wider range of players basically

[cloud iron]

accessibility is a huge problem

destroys the endgame

[sacred oracle]

I think it's probably easier to describe it as an endgame boss since it has an endgame version, but it does feel a bit odd to be fighting regular Yama and considering it an endgame boss.

[median wing]

what is it about tob that makes it endgame

[lament ridge]

Just cause people can do cox with rune sword and an msb doesn't mean it's early game content

[median wing]

imo it's the purple tornadoes wiping the noobs

[meager flame]

optional difficulty

base tob is not very hard

doing tob very efficiently though is hard

[median wing]

yeah but tob has a cult following

you arent allowed to farm tob like a noob

it's like those wines that u have to swirl around 4 times

[hard axle]

Please

Anything to revive Torva

[median wing]

cuz otheriwise they say ur not doing it right

[obsidian venture]

Imo it’s not endgame. Endgame in this case isn’t the default. It’s legit jad for 3 waves, then slowly scales

“Endgame” is something that a lot of people at doom skip

It can scale to endgame but it’s not endgame from the start

[hard axle]

Except max Yama gear against base Yama doesn’t change the fact it’s still very med level in terms of mechanics

[meager flame]

i think optional difficulty is actually super good for osrs every time it happens even though im not sure how often people put it into that context

[hard axle]

It’s like saying cox is endgame because you use subpar gear

[lament ridge]

Yama I think is med level sure, they pretty clearly missed the mark on that

[hard axle]

I can do a 1 hour f2p gear coz clear no issue

[meager flame]

like for example the inferno and colo make heavy use of it as well as tob and things like yama

[hard axle]

but base COX endgame? Nah

[median wing]

cox can be cheesed quite a lot

[obsidian venture]

It is fine yes but the rewards from where it’s accessible doesn’t make sense

It’s very sloppy

[meager flame]

a lot of the time it comes down to just going faster being harder but more rewarding just because of the speed

[median wing]

tob is a bit harder to cheese

the cheesability of content is a very important and interesting topic

[meager flame]

basically it always seems to work out when theres kind of a slow or almost nooby standard way to do something

but they allow you enough tools and breathing room to figure something else out

thats probably a lot better

[austere mulch]

For the love of all things good, I hope we don’t start getting blessing switches unless they first fix quiver to work as it was blogged

[obsidian venture]

You’re not asara mate

[meager flame]

im sure thats like 100000 times harder to design though than something like toa

where they just drop scaling on your head and toggles

[median wing]

verzik would be so much easier without the purple nado

[meager flame]

they probably will honestly

when it comes down to it them making blessing switches or just blessing that matter

[obsidian venture]

It’s funny how swept up under the rug this is

[meager flame]

it will force their hand a little bit when it just feels bad when it interacts with another existing item

[median wing]

a lot of the tob teams with 4 whips in 416 get stuck with verzik floating around 10% hp

[chrome lantern]

I put nothing past Jagex when it comes to the user experience being garbage on release

[meager flame]

oh yeah it will suck on release almost 100% lol

but that happening will be what forces the change

[chrome lantern]

Nah they'd make it a megarare from hard clues or something

[austere mulch]

It’s because there should be a slot between them

Early mid late end

[chrome lantern]

To upgrade your quiver

[meager flame]

i hope they dont have brain damage like that

but they might put that in a blog

[obsidian venture]

To what was proposed?

[meager flame]

probably get yelled at immediately though

[chrome lantern]

Yeah

[oblique mesa]

Do you think the secret cow boss hard mode will actually be hard

[meager flame]

like the boat bottles for facilities

i think the cow hard mode might just be complicated or really fast click wise

and thats why nobody killed it at the time when players tested it

[lament ridge]

They said the content creators couldnt do it though right? But wonder if that means it's just that hard or they just didnt have enough time to figure out mechanics

[median wing]

maybe it's also because they werent playing on their own setups

[meager flame]

but i do expect those people to kill it given actual time

[chrome lantern]

If players got close to killing a boss they had 0 inkling of the mechanics on that's supposed to be challenging with 0 time to prepare that would be extremely disappointing

[meager flame]

they probably did get kind of close

i dont think this is supposed to be like the hardest boss of all time or anything

[chrome lantern]

I mean they compared it to awakened levi didn't they

[meager flame]

but it probably is hard enough to kill you when jagex gives you an hour or two and no context

[lament ridge]

I mean, just depends on how much time they got I suppose

[median wing]

awakaned levi is such an annoying boss

[chrome lantern]

I know, I'm attempting it right now. Taking a break to eat some food

Enrage really do be something

[meager flame]

i almost think the awakened levi comparison might not be a good sign

[median wing]

i don't like having to pray against something every tick

[chrome lantern]

Well if you take it alongside their previous comparisons that means it's probably the level of normal levi right

[meager flame]

where its kind of just overloading people with seeing if they can actually click that fast or not

like they know what they need to do

but they struggle to actually do it

[austere mulch]

Quiver fix is backlogged behind unlimited waves. Truly unfort

[chrome lantern]

Oh yeah, "endless mode" colo lmao

[obsidian venture]

HAHA

[sturdy zephyr]

The range strength gain with the new arrows + amulet is absurd... we dont need this level of powercreep from a single boss. Especially with raids 4 on the horizon as well

[chrome lantern]

The limit on endless mode was that they couldn't try to actually make it a roguelike so you'd run out of invocations in 2 runs

[median wing]

yeah I don't know why it's so important to have content that requires so much attention and fast inputs

[obsidian venture]

They reworked endless mode for doom!

[obsidian venture]

It’s fine

[meager flame]

i mean i think fast clicks are okay to a point but

[sturdy zephyr]

Its not "fine"

[obsidian venture]

It also helps out irons!

[lament ridge]

Again we just dont know enough about it. "comparable to Awakened Leviathan" could mean same kind of mechanics, or it could just mean they expect about as many people to be able to do it

[obsidian venture]

Idk man

Basing stuff of content creators is interesting

[meager flame]

personally i'd rather something be difficult in the sense that i didn't know what to do thus i died and not just have an awkward like

[median wing]

i guess they don't want to lean into team strategies

[meager flame]

i knew exactly what to do but man i had to click my prayers and move repeatedly and i was just slow

[chrome lantern]

I think awakened leviathan as a standalone unique encounter is very good but shouldn't be a standard

[obsidian venture]

Awakened Levi is zzz till the end

[chrome lantern]

Yeah

[obsidian venture]

Shoutout to awakened vard

Best design

[lament ridge]

On the other hand, then you just end up with something that is hard to learn but completely trivial when you figure it out (or just follow a guide)

[chrome lantern]

Awakened vard is awesome

[meager flame]

ya i think most people are talking about the end when they talk about clicking a lot and it being overwhelming

[chrome lantern]

I did it yesterday for my first time

[lament ridge]

Thats how we ended up with Yama didnt we?

[median wing]

awakaned vard is also just about fast clicking