game-update

[forest herald]

I wouldnt have made the damn upgrades if I knew I couldnt use them

[restive storm]

oof

[nocturne solstice]

That was always the case for facilities, the trimming sails thing is new and crewmates not being able to use em either is new.

[forest herald]

Thats what I meant

I cant trim my sails and my crewmates cant helm 🤬

[restive storm]

im ngl they giga trolled u lmao thats kinda hilarious they changed that and it screwed it up for anyone boosting to make sails

now u just gotta putt putt around or rebuild the old sails

[forest herald]

Ive got rosewood/dragon, it’d be insane to downgrade

[nocturne solstice]

Or just level up sailing

Time to afk some salvaging or do some trials

[restive storm]

classic jagex

[forest herald]

I cant do trials if I cant trim my sails 🤦🏻‍♂️

[nocturne solstice]

You can do trials, you just wont make trial time

you still get xp tho

[restive storm]

sry bro they love to try and band-aid fix unintended things and never actually consider how it affects the wider game playing as intended

[nocturne solstice]

same xp even

[hard axle]

just let them all be used boostable lol

otherwise why even allow it

[fresh forge]

They can be used boosted

[restive storm]

the fact that they changed the trimming thing THIS FAR after anyone who cared already did it is insanely funny lol

[nocturne solstice]

Gwenith glide I dont think i did any trimming either since you get so many boosts from the little thingies

[dawn jackal]

holy smokes yall are miserable scroll up it doesn't appear it was intended

things happen you are acting like a dork

[nocturne solstice]

what

[dawn jackal]

squinttz is communicating like a toddler

[restive storm]

relac O im just discussing their track record of not really considering unintended consequences of their bandaid fixes

[nocturne solstice]

Oh, eh people are usually like that so I kinda tune it out sometimes.

[fresh forge]

Nah trim boosting is pretty new

[dawn jackal]

theres a mod comment up north that says they are looking into it

[restive storm]

its literally been out since the first day lol

[fresh forge]

Yes but it only became apparent as a problem after there were enough high lvls to boost off

Most bugs exist for years before they are found

[restive storm]

i guess, idk EVscape made a video on it like the first week lmao

it was definitely not unknown

[fresh forge]

There’s also probably a prioritisation of fixes

[thick beacon]

is voidwaker not the same? i do think bclaws are easier to get but vw overall made dclaws feel pretty whatever to.

[forest herald]

How is it a bug? I boosted construction to build my poh altar. Should I have to boost everytime I want to use it?

[nocturne solstice]

#game-update message

This comment? Cause I was going off the patch notes.

[dawn jackal]

yea, mod yume already responded they are looking into it

[mild saddle]

Dclaws and VW have different enough niches I don’t think as much

Yeah VW for sure made claws less exciting because before claws were the only dps spec weapon

But VW more claimed some territory but left dclaws their own space to excel

Bclaws are right on the heels of VW / dclaws everywhere or just better

Also VW is harder to get than Bclaws, Bclaws are effectively passive prepping for doom / yama

[thick beacon]

ye I agree with alot of what u said

the main arguements ive seen boil down to vw or bclaws and if u get one of them the other does not matter as much

ive gotten flacked for saying bclaws is better for progression then vw ppl dont buy it

and ppl still often value vw more then bclaws just maybe cuz its an og thing

[mild saddle]

Bclaws are more generically better

I think so yeah

VW’s niches are pretty specific and it’s enough worse than Bclaws / dclaws that those items still feel good to get

With Bclaws in pocket, dclaws and VW arent that exciting

This will be a popular change because every midgame iron has bclaws and every new player can pickup a pair for free on the GE but I really don’t think we should be buffing them

[thick beacon]

tbh I do really like claws but I agree. i think in general its similar to oathplate/eye of ayak for me items that were to strong but still good idea

they can still nerf oathplate/ayak/bclaws but I dont think its necessary buff was uncalled for they were already nice for chambers

scartch that I do really want them to nerf eye but im juist biased

[meager flame]

Kind of but not really

Tds are less work and safer

Vw would be decent if they were remotely capable of handling the absolute bot farms on those bosses

[thick beacon]

ye I meant like in the sense that if dclaws were a 10 in difficulty to get vw was like a 3 or 4 and just better for most things at the time

bclaws imo are like a 2 compared to vw

[meager flame]

Yeah they had a kind of okay balance though where they each had good content to use them for

Then bclaws pulled up and are actually free

Tbh I kinda think bclaws should’ve been an attachment to d claws

Would’ve made claws better than vw but like

They should be

D claws are really hard to get compared to the other two

[hard axle]

let both be useable but dclaws should be upgradeable with burning claws

burning dragon claws would go HARD

[thick beacon]

probaly a hottake but I think chambers is way to bloated rn in terms of rewards. I want them to just release new better dclaws from raids 4 or something and just make it surpass claws

[hard axle]

because of two things:

1. burn damage
2. burn damage's application scales off of accuracy

[unique haven]

"Players are unable to purchase an untrimmed version of the Runecrafting or Ranged skillcapes if their only 99 prior to maxing either of those skills was Sailing."
Is this saying you can buy untrimmed capes after 2 99s?

[meager flame]

I just think it’s incredible that they managed to power creep on a raid drop spec weapon with

Early to mid game slayer creatures

[hard axle]

We told them this

[meager flame]

That aren’t even bosses

[hard axle]

repeatedly

that it's too strong

"we'll monitor it"

[restive storm]

"but are you seriously gonna expect irons to do 300 cox to get a claw spec weapon?"

[meager flame]

I believe in them I got 4 getting my tbow

[hard axle]

yes

voidwaker, arkan blade

all exist

"but irons" is such a weak argument since you always have people poking holes with "you chose the game mode/self-restrictions", "you always say you enjoy grinding shit out urself", etc.

[restive storm]

yea im just trollin, irons have destroyed this game in ways that i can hardly even find the words to articulate

[austere mulch]

For 2. Expected burn damage per spec starts to decrease as your base accuracy goes beyond 54%

[restive storm]

i should say casual irons

[austere mulch]

It’s part of why they’re not good at bloat

[restive storm]

important distinction

[obsidian venture]

@restive storm to your point above, I do collection log stuff + pet hunt but I hate that the destroy option is even a thing

Jagex just coddling players at this point

[restive storm]

only gets worse every update sadly

as they try to bring in new players who dont like what the game used to be and continuously want to change it to a "completion" simulator

[obsidian venture]

This game doesn’t respect your time and people shouldn’t expect it to

Which is why at some point if you really care, you push into “eff” gameplay as that’s something you can control

[restive storm]

the thing that gets me is that every time they ask "would you recommend this game to someone?" Like absolutely not, they removed the only content i'd actually consider asking friends to do with me

[soft pawn]

Y u yapping

[restive storm]

bored at work

[true talon]

i agree this should happen. they need to accept upgrade scape is the only way to make items that both power creep an stay relvent.

Max treads are perfect example

[soft pawn]

Everything doesn't need to be upgraded. A few items are fine. But it gets stale

[true talon]

Anytime an armor is stand alone like oathplate/inquis its just garbage the difference being oathplate is insanely strong due to how good slash is.

[true talon]

I dont think it gets stale at all

I like it, because its actual progression

[soft pawn]

It's progression regardless

[true talon]

your working towards increasing your character by doing all the content along the way

not just oh new content came out? guess ill never see that nicely polished old content and just go do yama for 100 hours

[obsidian venture]

It keeps content relevant after years is what I believe Tassili is getting at

Which tbh is fine

[restive storm]

“Progression” and you just skip the other five items cuz the newest one is pretty easy to get and just about as good as the rest

[true talon]

as an ironman this is false

you want to increase your power step by step

[obsidian venture]

Yeah while upgrading is ok, the actual progression is fucked and has been fucked for years

[true talon]

engage with all content in the game

I dont want to go oh yea im this lvl and i can kill this boss, so i can skip everything that came before it.

[obsidian venture]

Midgame slip releasing near bis or items sometimes just better is ?

[soft pawn]

Current iron progression is in the best place it's ever been

[obsidian venture]

Their insight into endgame is also ?

[true talon]

yes it is, because of upgrade scape

[soft pawn]

No, because of moons /titans/TD's

[true talon]

were you turn your zenytes into rancor/conflict
your bandos into torva (sadly oathplate broke this)
arma into masori

[obsidian venture]

Iron progression has more routes now which is fine, but some bis items are too easy to obtain

Wonder what bis raids 4 will have and how accessible to Billybobs it would be

[true talon]

I dont agree with this take as its spoken from a very elitest mindset. "items to easy to obtain" "billybobs can do the raid" ect

[restive storm]

i mean it has to be accessible to every early game iron thats got their moons gear and is ready to roll the dice at mega rares

[meager flame]

Expect raids 4 to be for everyone

[obsidian venture]

Not elitist tbh. Just need a brain req

[meager flame]

Based on what they’ve already said

[soft pawn]

Raids 4 is tob 2

[restive storm]

tob 2 but easier

cuz the little timmys already cant handle tob

[obsidian venture]

Like you’re telling me Yama post demonbane and doom drops are balanced?

[meager flame]

One of them was on a podcast talking about how raids aren’t the place to really push end game

Like a couple weeks ago

[true talon]

nothing in this game needs a brain to do, it requires lots of practice and muscle memory. i know ive done majority of everything difficult (outside of awakened due to limited orbs)

[meager flame]

They need more people to play the raid to justify them

That’s not to say there won’t be anything hard but like

[soft pawn]

I've done everything in the game 😎

[meager flame]

It’s not going to be the hardest content in the game

[true talon]

I was actuall watching a video of when TOA came out an people was struggling in toa 150s

took me back lol

or when tob released

[obsidian venture]

It does need a brain to some degree and repetition

[true talon]

people need to understand with time and strategy, everything gets easier. thats the point.

[obsidian venture]

Getting easier over time isn’t the issue

[meager flame]

Idk how me and a guy in my gim group were banging out toa first try getting a fang etc

[true talon]

Perfect example if you look at classic wow and how difficult the raids were preceived, and then 20 years later its face rolled in a matter of hours.

[meager flame]

Within like an hour of release

[obsidian venture]

Jagex releasing stuff that insta gets farmed by folks in moons gear nowadays and drops bis

[meager flame]

I kinda miss gim

[obsidian venture]

Who?

[meager flame]

Rice I think

[obsidian venture]

Tbf I get it to some degree

[true talon]

this can be done at tob/toa/cox so whats your point? you can literally do tob in a whip and void.

[restive storm]

moons gear legit makes me rage when i sit at ferox and every little 1100 ironmeme has fully moons gear at like 80 kc

and like a power ammy

[soft pawn]

Moons gear great for irons

Why cry

[restive storm]

its far TOO good

for how hard it is to get

[obsidian venture]

Notice I didn’t mention void and all three raids are accessible yes this is known

[true talon]

Moons gear isnt for just irons, its highly used gear for pvp

[soft pawn]

Weird take

[meager flame]

I think it’s just that raids are kind of too big of an update to be solely dedicated to pushing end game further

[restive storm]

i also dislike it in pvp, discouraging switching by having multi use gear is kinda lame

and leads too too many hail mary ags mauls etc

[meager flame]

They probably can’t spend that much time on content unless it’s aimed at a wider audience

[obsidian venture]

Maybe so

[meager flame]

That’s kinda fine though like take tob and cox

[true talon]

END game in this game is created by the players, those who choose to push the content to its limits by improving themselves and doing it faster. it will never be a difficulty lever created by the devs.

if it is then its a bug like the doom wave 8 boulder shit

[meager flame]

Basic level they’re not that hard

[obsidian venture]

I’m not expecting an end game raid by any means

[meager flame]

A lot of the difficulty is player created to go faster

[obsidian venture]

Yes

[true talon]

As someone who recently did a 1 def lvl 50 firecape that content can be difficult if you dont know about spawns and solves.

while a maxed firecape i can just afk to jad lol

[obsidian venture]

I think it’d do the devs a huge favor as well as the playerbase to have stuff organized into what is mid/late/end just to get an idea of what they’re tryna push

[hard axle]

i love it. Coming from mmos that just kept replacing gear, it sucks getting back into the game when ur 8 generations behind

like it geniunely feels bad ur endgame gear 5 years ago is doing 1/100 the damage of current bis

and im not exaggerating

doing 6 figure damage when others are doing 8 figure damage 💀

[meager flame]

Most of them just effectively reset the game every 6 months

[hard axle]

and u know what i noticed about each of these resets?

population would decrease about 10% each time

[meager flame]

Ya that’s when expansion happens instead

To restart the cycle

[hard axle]

slight boost on release and then they leave since they're done

[true talon]

it is, just you dont accept it.
TOA 150 is mid, toa 300 is end, toa 500 is end
TOB is end , HM tob is late
Fire cape is mid, inferno is late, GM inferno/speed ect is end
Yama is late game , Contract yama is end
Doom 1-6 is late, doom 8+ is end

[hard axle]

always always sink gear when possible, make both useable on drop, and make gear stronger rather than replacing

[obsidian venture]

Toa 300 is end is laughable

Same with tob

And Yama

[hard axle]

eh, slight disagreement about yama and doom 1-6 (where is 7 lil guy), toa 300

[obsidian venture]

Might be end for you tho unlucky

[meager flame]

Yeah they solved it with masori/treads

[true talon]

by the game defintion TOA 300 which is EXPERT is considered their difficulty of end game raid.

[meager flame]

They should just run that idea back on like

[obsidian venture]

It’s just expert it’s not end

[meager flame]

Anything applicable forever lol

[hard axle]

expert was 300 on release

IF

you did WTP

they fucked up by having WTP in default, but not requiring it

WTP 150 vs no WTP 150 was so different on release

it's not even funny

[true talon]

WTP was broken as fuck lol

[meager flame]

I think the biggest thing they had to learn twice is that they suck at invocations and are way better at a more focused experience

[hard axle]

they've made toa about 100 raid level easier since release, which is when they said 300 RL is expert, so true expert is ~400 RL

AND

they nerfed all the rooms so far

[meager flame]

Like

[hard axle]

baba is so much easier its not even funny

[meager flame]

They can make a hard mode or an easy mode

But they can’t have dozens of options

[hard axle]

1000%

there should be three levels

[true talon]

well baba was already easy as it was 0 damage room if you red-x or did any of the other methods ( i consider this bad design if this is the intention)

[hard axle]

normal, hard, noobtype

[true talon]

They have removed red-x making the boss do no damage on places like nex

[hard axle]

yes, but facetanking baba decreased the requirements further

toa was never really that hard in the first place and then they went and made it even friendlier

[meager flame]

The baba stuff was so weird to me

[obsidian venture]

@final frigate

[meager flame]

They folded so hard with baba

[hard axle]

so saying 300 is expert is not something i agree with after playing during toa release

[meager flame]

Like they just gave up and said they didn’t like the tech I guess

[true talon]

I just go by what the game dictates as its expert mode

[meager flame]

And just let people pull up and whack the monkey lol

[final frigate]

ty content

[true talon]

i know the devs made it easier or whatever over time, but the game said when you reach 300 thats considered expert

[obsidian venture]

Think you have a nice picture of endgame gear doing a 300 yeah?

Green dhide tech

[hard axle]

which, unless you are ignoring everything they've done since the designation, it means it has gotten easier

It's like how fire cape got much much easier over time

[final frigate]

yeah endgame content

<40 timer btw

[hard axle]

all im saying

[true talon]

Everything got way easier over time due to items. that lvl 50 firecape i did was so damn easy with prayer enhances and sunlight hunter crossbow lol.

the new range off hand for pures the antler gaurd

that thing is cracked

[hard axle]

bro, i stg

if they let you skip ma2 cape for next mage cape

do not fold... hold the line...

[final frigate]

need avernic cape

[meager flame]

It’s coming soon

[hard axle]

idc if it's inferno tier, u shouldn't be allowed to bypass ma2

[meager flame]

I was looking at the current typical bis setups

[true talon]

Would love to a BIS mage cape on an inferno type content that uses mostly magic, maybe even throw in some spellbook swap tech

[meager flame]

And that cape and the anguish are getting replaced coming soon

[hard axle]

yeah its coming from a melee based inferno and u'll enjoy it

[true talon]

needing to swap between all the spellbooks to counter the boss

[meager flame]

Everything else is fairly modern

[final frigate]

can't wait to use shadow for 1/5 bosses at the shadow raid

when anguish gets upgrade

[restive storm]

only accessible by running thru mage bank with your setup

[hard axle]

imagine we get a new tier of necklace

[gilded sparrow]

Why no ring of shadow? good for all styles and basicly free

[hard axle]

zenyte 2.0

[final frigate]

too poor

[obsidian venture]

Next mage cape upgrade is tryna bypass Eliop holding you hostage

[true talon]

you already know thats coming for anguish lol

sell your anguish kits now

[meager flame]

I also think they have the high end melee spec slot wide open

[true talon]

We have so many spec weps

[final frigate]

it was just a meme run dw

[true talon]

i think something to replace crystal hally would be sick

[meager flame]

But I already expect to see the khopesh mega or something

[true talon]

kinda crazy its a bis item an its just a 180k

[restive storm]

i despise they keep suggestiong kopesh in more game modes for this reason

[gilded sparrow]

Free from quest, 75k to recollect later

[obsidian venture]

75k pricey!

[vernal valve]

really curious to see what their approach is gonna be to the raids 4 drop table that won't result in everything other than the mega dropping to pennies in like 2 years

[meager flame]

It keeps showing up for a reason I’m telling you lmao

[vernal valve]

or if they're just gonna give up on that and have that be perma status quo for raids 😭

[true talon]

I think weapon megas are off the table. we basically hit the peek of tbow, shadow, scythe and now its time to fill out other slots

[meager flame]

That thing is coming to the main game maybe with a new name

[restive storm]

oh i mean you're right, theyre gonna try to force it in at some point to appease the noobs

[hard axle]

tribrid mega

the mega salamander

https://tenor.com/view/salamander-kirby-axolotl-tiger-salamander-gif-5538061917183945938

[meager flame]

It’s also the last type of weapon that doesn’t have a mega rare

A spec weapon

[obsidian venture]

Next upgrade is going to be for the venator ring 😍

[vernal valve]

fuck it, tribrid mega salamander that gets +2 in every stat for every unique raid drop you feed it

sang/justi fixed

🔥

[hard axle]

I want sang combined with ayak

or vice versa

4t sang with higher max hit

[meager flame]

That would be better than shadow immediately idk if they left any room between them lmao

[hard axle]

or 3t ayak with healing

[hard axle]

maybe just 4t sang with higher max hit then

[meager flame]

Which is low key crazy ngl

They had a gap the size of the Grand Canyon

And managed to make ayak almost as good as shadow if you have gauntlets in tons of places

[final frigate]

need to make conflictions work with shadow

[hard axle]

dds and dragon claws had the same thing too

[final frigate]

[meager flame]

Lmao it’s insane

[hard axle]

burning claws are like 90-95% that of dragon claws when u factor in burn

[obsidian venture]

Ye at this point

[hard axle]

exceeding dragon claws in some cases

[vernal valve]

the way ayak turned out feels so weird to me tbh

[final frigate]

let me bring 3 way range to toa please

[hard axle]

give it like 2 more years and that'll be the case

[vernal valve]

esp bc now if they do that shadow overhaul they've been thinking about, and it even slightly involves nerfing shadow's comedically absurd accuracy

like

that accuracy is THE thing it has over ayak 😭

[meager flame]

They will have to redesign shadows niche so it remains a real mega

[vernal valve]

yeah, i agree

[analog crow]

Redesign magic damage as a whole tbqhfam

[meager flame]

Or take the probably smart way out now

And nerf confliction gauntlets

They’re causing way too much weird shit anyways tbh

[vernal valve]

8 man shadow-ayak brain off TOA 500s 🔥

[final frigate]

doomed..

nah i should try one of those

[mild saddle]

The other thing about bclaws that’s imo is lame is that the dps from burn doesn’t feel good

Same as thralls

[meager flame]

Like the gauntlets made a pretty solidly weird assault on nex and the inferno too

[restive storm]

https://tenor.com/view/kanye-kanye-taylor-taylor-swift-imma-let-you-finish-kanye-imma-let-you-gif-19373508

imma let yall finish but we need a wildy update first pls and ty

[mild saddle]

Big red number from VW bops, big xp drop and 4 red hit splats from dclaws rules

[meager flame]

And specifically with the inferno I’d say it’s not very healthy

[vernal valve]

it's cooked bro, put the spec weapon in the bag

[mild saddle]

Most of the dps of Bclaws is hidden behind some passive damage, so you get all this power creep for very little dopamine pop when you click the button

[analog crow]

wildy update
lol
lmao

[restive storm]

just revert all the changes made in the last 3-4 years, and its better than it is today

[vernal valve]

i'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying they won't do it 😭

[restive storm]

im so sad i agree with u

such a free and easy W that they just refuse to take

[analog crow]

They have no clue what to do with wildy istg

[vernal valve]

have we genuinely heard about a single actual wildy update since wrathmaw imploded?

[restive storm]

theyre absolutely lost and refuse to take any sort of suggestion from people who used to actually be out there when it was active

[vernal valve]

genuinely don't remember

[restive storm]

no man and it makes me depressed

[obsidian venture]

Shadow ayak toas are legit so in

Fuck 8 mans tho

[analog crow]

They did the survey, but no sound about the results
Which imo tells a story about the responses they got

That the survey did not give them any justification to spend dev resources on wildy

[gilded sparrow]

they sent out a survey

[analog crow]

So wildy devs got relocated to dmm etc

That's my speculation anyway

[restive storm]

i mean yeah when you kick out the playerbase who used to utilize the area, and then poll the remaining people on what thye want done w/ it, obviously its gonna look awful lol

i just cant believe they dont understand it themselves at this point

[minor whale]

There is no "fixing" the Wildy
Half the playerbase wants it essentially deleted, and the other half wants to shove so much content in there that pvmers have to go there all the time

You can't appease both groups

[analog crow]

No way it's half and half

[minor whale]

Yeah it's way more who want the Wildy killed off almost entirely I'd bet

[gilded sparrow]

This is Old School Iron Scape now. And irons dont pk in the wildy. Let it die.

[analog crow]

Most people are indifferent I think

[restive storm]

100% at this point

[analog crow]

Don't care either way

[restive storm]

since the updates have been so bad its made pkers quit

[analog crow]

But ask if they want a reason to go there and they will say "nah cba"

[vernal valve]

by far the most common feedback i see from the real pker nerds is literally every time without fail "remove pj timer", not "add black chins/wildy altar 2.0" or whatever

like i really don't think a lot of pkers care that much about random skillslop being added to the wildy

[hard axle]

Only thing that I could potentially see work is XP multiplier items, but iron skillers will fucking rage

[minor whale]

Most people just don't engage with the Wildy outside of things they feel obligated to do
PJ timer got removed because people hated the mechanic across the board lol

[restive storm]

its not exactly rocket science when we witnessed the wilderness die overnight so their streamer friends could run around farming noobs in 1b sets never dying

[minor whale]

The only people who liked no PJ timer were multi clans in singles, there's a reason it got removed

[vernal valve]

the avg andrew who didn't like the wilderness hated it, but said andrew still doesn't like going to the wilderness anyway

so what's the point

[analog crow]

Anyway the writing is on the wall imo

The moment jagex makes it a poll question the wildy is going bye bye
So just hope they don't poll it

[vernal valve]

yeah i think this is pretty much where we're at

[restive storm]

it needs legit integrity updates at this point

cuz theyve let it go wayyyyy too far

[minor whale]

They've said they're doing a Wilderness Updates Month this year I think

Or it's planned

[restive storm]

they said they "personally" would be fond of doing something like that

i.e. not gonna happen

[vernal valve]

yeah jmods constantly talk about wanting to improve the wildy

and I believe them

but they seriously do not seem capable of doing it

[restive storm]

also lets not forget the pj timer was done because they "consulted" with people and thought what would bring more activity to the wilderness

and its the reason its so dead now

[meager flame]

I mean sometimes I think they should just accept it’s over

[minor whale]

But you aren't going to fix it with any update without pissing off the actual majority of the playerbase
Make it better for pkers and even less mains go into the Wildy and cry and pkers still cry there's not enough targets

Make it better for pvmers and they cry they're being forced into the Wildy and pkers cry they're at more of a disadvantage

[meager flame]

Like osrs players have been doing their best to stop the wilderness from existing for more than 10 years

And the game is just growing without it

[restive storm]

the "majority" of the playerbase still nonstop whines about it right now as is, when its the safest thew ildy has ever been... how is it a bad thing if we fix it for the people who actually wanna be there lol

[pure gorge]

I vote no on every pvp poll. Been working so far.

[meager flame]

Maybe we’re actually better off without it

Seems to be working so far

Kinda crazy to say though

[pure gorge]

The death is slow, but it is happening 😄

[minor whale]

Most people just don't interact with it, don't want to interact with it, and aren't going to interact with it
People just don't care about pvp and losing stuff when there's so much more "rewarding" content to do with a much lower skill gap

[meager flame]

It seems wrong but the players have been slaying it forever and the game keeps getting better without it

And it’s actually working

[restive storm]

so let the people interact with it who want to, and the people who are whining about it are gonna whine either way... at least let the pkers fight each other lol

[ember token]

i don’t really see average people complain about the wilderness anymore, i hardly see the average person even talk about it and i think the majority just doesn’t really care or engage with it at all

[meager flame]

So it’s sorta hard to argue against it

[minor whale]

Like I think it's fun to go pk with people sometimes but nobody else really cares about the wilderness overall outside of a small subset of the playerbase that have been complaining about the wilderness as much as the people they say complain too much about the wilderness lmao

[vernal valve]

I think there's a world where they could have preserved the wilderness way, waaaaaay better than they have now, without causing issues to the rest of the game.

I do think at large, though, the playerbase always would have trended away from the Wilderness, just due to the game's design moving further and further away from risk/reward. But that's separate from the wilderness being more or less slowly suffocated, tbh

[restive storm]

to act like the two are mutually exclusive is crazy talk tho lol

[minor whale]

Pkers and complaining about the Wildy being dead is as common as mains complaining about the Wildy being forced on them

It's just an area everyone bitches about constantly and nobody is ever happy with it

[meager flame]

I mean I have nostalgia for the wild from way back in the day so it seems fundamentally wrong for it to just not be there

[restive storm]

idk COVID black chins was just such a fun time of the game

[meager flame]

But I think osrs has more than proven that it doesn’t need it

[restive storm]

all hours of the day, different people, sometimes the same people

[ember token]

people have nostalgia for something that hasn’t existed for decades

[restive storm]

no part of the game has ever come close to touching it

not a single streamer had coined the term "hop simulator" yet, it was the best

[meager flame]

I think they just took the wrong path immediately with osrs and the wild

It should’ve been the home of actual PvP but they tried to make it the worlds worst extraction shooter

[restive storm]

idk if i follow

[analog crow]

The funny thing is, most players risk more in death fees doing regular pvm than they do when they go to the wildy
But it feels much worse losing your items than losing some gp, and so it goes.

[ember token]

the wilderness as it is now is a bot quarantine zone that gives people the chance to take some of the loot from bots

[pure gorge]

-Turn off resource drops and pvp in the wild but on a few worlds.

Allows people to hunt uniques at a cost and do clue scrolls that dont want to engage in pvp and narrows the worlds pkers have to hop to find fights between eachother.

[meager flame]

Almost all wilderness content is dudes running out there in rags collecting loot and trying to escape

[restive storm]

thats cuz the bots are too advanced for 1 lone noob to have a good time farming them anymore

and they dont have anyone to help them

[vernal valve]

yeah, like, singles bosses can be done super effectively in genuine rag gear, and you're also genuinely unkillable if you have half of an eye open

[meager flame]

Like they just completely missed on figuring out how to get actual PvP going

[vernal valve]

but the idea of someone "randomly" showing up and killing them "for free" just upsets people too much

[meager flame]

Then moved the pvp they do have out of the wild with minigames, pvp worlds and bh

Idk they just tried so hard to emphasize the part of the wild almost nobody liked

[restive storm]

i been trying to explain it to yall that actual PvP used to happen 🤦‍♂️ but now since any pker can just hit a pvmer, or freeze log without a care, there is no pker v pker interactions

then you jajaja at the guy risking 2b cuz he cant hit u and log out

[analog crow]

Maybe the implementation isn't there yet but I do think pvp worlds, bh etc are the future of osrs pvp.
Wildy is like an appendix at this point.

[restive storm]

those worlds are the least popular style of pvp for a reason

[ember token]

jagex probably isn’t going to significantly change or fix the wilderness because then they’d be unleashing loads of bots into the rest of the game

[vernal valve]

it's genuinely so sad that the only design space the devs feel they have left for the wildy is bot food.

Can't have useful uniques, because people will complain forever about being "forced" there.

Can't balance methods around good exp rates, because people will complain forever about being "forced" there.

Can't have requirements be too high, because it needs to be accessible, because we need to capture as many people as possible for it to hopefully be a hotspot and not a hopfest.

[restive storm]

the bots are everywhere in the rest of the game anyway what are we talkin ab lol

[meager flame]

Tbh removing the wild would be an insane blow to bot farms

[vernal valve]

Low requirement, consistent high gp/hr methods is the only content they're willing to put in the wilderness

[restive storm]

as would removing zulrah, doom, vorkath, rune drags

[meager flame]

That would add an insane ramp for suicide bots to make it through

[vernal valve]

Which fucking sucks

[nocturne solstice]

They're probably talking about wildy content being pretty much bot content since it's all low requirements and easy as heck.

[meager flame]

Since most content outside of the wild actually has requirements

[nocturne solstice]

And also super profitable

[ember token]

yeah i guess my wording wasn’t the best, not saying that there isn’t bots out of the wildy lol

[meager flame]

At least compared to wilderness content you’d bot

[nocturne solstice]

Yeah what Turkey said, outside wildy its like, grind this skill, complete 10 quests, do this as well.

[restive storm]

ehh they just bot the requirements for those too anyway

[analog crow]

And since nothing can be instanced in the wildy, the bots push out real players that would have gone there

[restive storm]

it isnt like they do a great job banning those either

[ember token]

the more reqs, the more chances they get banned along the way

[restive storm]

in an ideal world i agree

sadly we working w/ jagex anti cheat here

[nocturne solstice]

Well every few months I get people in chat complaining "Why BP so expensive??" so they definitely are banning em now and then.

[meager flame]

Yeah but those bots are way harder to maintain than just launching hordes of accounts at revs the second you think the anticheat team is asleep

[analog crow]

revs were certainly one of the updates of all time

[vernal valve]

yeah i get the whole "everything is botted" thing (bc it is), but lower requirements absolutely impacts how much things are botted

[true talon]

they were added by a corrupted jmod and RWT clan ROT. They even added a mechanic that loot is better when skulled (to help rot get +1s by mass smiting players)

[vernal valve]

and the only content jagex seems to be willing to release in the wildy is low requirement, high consistent gp/hr methods

which. 😭

[meager flame]

Tbh I think jagex might have another thought though

[restive storm]

the irony isnt lost on me that the bots/rwt there now since its singles+ is worse than ever before

and they refuse to admit it

[meager flame]

Imagine they do delete the wild so the bot makers feel the pressure right

[vernal valve]

yeah current revs is insane

[meager flame]

What if that’s the push for them to just get even smarter and jagex can’t do shit

And now bots are right there next to you everywhere lol

It’s already happened to them before actually

[true talon]

Bot issue got worst, because the advancement of technology has made it easier than ever to make them

[restive storm]

they already are right next to you everywhere

lol

[meager flame]

Nah not like it was

There was a time pre eoc where regular people you knew were just botting

[true talon]

before to write a script that worked in osrs it took a lot of effort and time. now you can probably get an AI prompt to write you one that somewhat functions.

[restive storm]

this happens rn too btw

[meager flame]

It was so normal they didn’t even ban for it

They asked everyone nicely to stop when they finally figured out how to detect it

[restive storm]

i worked my butt off for my max cape by giga afking for 10 years

and my friend got one in like 6 months by not playing the game 🙁

puts quite the damper on the game

[meager flame]

I mean it’s kinda fixable but it’s scary and probably not cost effective

But they could easily change the game in a way where jagex attacked the reason most farms were botting to begin with

Like when they removed free trade the first time

[nocturne solstice]

#game-news message

They fixed it

[meager flame]

I’m not even convinced them deleting trading like that was the wrong idea as much as it was poor execution

[dawn jackal]

wow crazy was that single hour worth acting like a toddler

[restive storm]

it was def the wrong idea lol

[nocturne solstice]

Squeaky wheel gets the oil and all that

[meager flame]

Idk almost nobody playing actually needs to trade face to face with some obvious outlier situations

[restive storm]

relac O no need for hurling insults

[dawn jackal]

hopefully you can communicate in a better fashion moving forward !

[meager flame]

I think if they had actually addressed those problems from the start it probably would’ve been fine

[dawn jackal]

what's the argument against free trade anyway

[restive storm]

i mean ive been pretty cool calm and collected discussing stuff, you started throwing insults

[meager flame]

Basically the problem with osrs and free trade is that it facilitates botting for irl profit

[dawn jackal]

i vaguely remember trade limits from when i was a youngin

[restive storm]

not waiting 10 years to start banning the buyers of gold woulda been a good start for sure

[meager flame]

It doesn’t solve all botting situations but it’s the underlying mechanic for why someone can sell gp to begin with

[oblique mesa]

OSRS Economy is built off an invisible worker caste that does all the tedious stuff and allows rulebreakers to run a GP blackmarket for real world money

[dawn jackal]

the harm of removing free trade does not outweigh the benefits here

[restive storm]

so u wanna remove free trade?

[dawn jackal]

no

sorry if that sentence isn't clear

[restive storm]

thats literally what your statement just said xD

[dawn jackal]

i'm saying any benefits you'd get from removing free trade are not worth the harm to the game to remove it

[nocturne solstice]

Yeah maybe you meant "does outweigh" not does not

[restive storm]

iziz just backwards

[meager flame]

I think they could have addressed the problems though and it would’ve worked much better from the start but most of their fixes came much later

And were often confusing

Like the lending system was really weird and quirky to address players wanting to let their friend use something

[analog crow]

Gp payment for in game services are within tos so I don’t really see a world without free trade

[restive storm]

like removing multi revs in the name of rwt/botting, only to make the botting/rwt 10x worse

i would agree

[meager flame]

And good ways to split drops are also possible but took a long time to implement

Etc

[dawn jackal]

i can't remember everything from that era i remember it was extremely frustrating to do anything with anyone when they removed free trade

[nocturne solstice]

I dont like how they split drops in rs3 though

that stuff is weird

[meager flame]

Agreed they often just

[restive storm]

yea that era sucked, i just quit str8 up

[meager flame]

Had solutions that took a long time and were just too weird

Probably because they yeeted free trade first then tried to slowly fix it after

[fresh forge]

The problem was they sort of didn’t realise how seriously it affected them and then Visa I believe said “we’re gonna block you” and they had to act very quick. So they didn’t have time to properly design good work arounds. Not that a perfect work around would have been great but it would have been less ugly on day 1

[meager flame]

Which is usually always a bad plan

[nocturne solstice]

I wouldnt really look back and judge things with what we know now. The team was different, the resources was different, options were different.

[restive storm]

i mean their "solution" ultimately was just putting the game back to the way it was before no? lol

[nocturne solstice]

I think its better to focus on what can be done now to improve, past lessons have been learned.

[dawn jackal]

i wonder if most people would enjoy a game without bots

[nocturne solstice]

I certainly would

[meager flame]

But yeah idk that’s why I was saying idk if they were really wrong so much as their execution was extremely lacking

[dawn jackal]

it's hard for me to understand the scope of what they impact

[nocturne solstice]

I imagine a lot of ironmen too, which there are many

[restive storm]

definitely made it was more fun as skilling was actually profitable

[fresh forge]

Eh. Bits were less unprofitable. Flax became a lot lot more expensive

[restive storm]

picking it wasnt tho

was an actual thing people did

[fresh forge]

Sure but that’s not skilling

[dawn jackal]

i don't think anyone except maybe jagex with their tools could understand fully what thanos snapping bots would do to this game

[nocturne solstice]

I think a lot of people would appreciate a double snap and have em all gone not 50%

[dawn jackal]

interesting to think about

[nocturne solstice]

People are nostalgic of the time they were kids when they could sell essence for actual profit or coal or clay

[dawn jackal]

yea ideally that's what happened from the start is we just never had bots

[nocturne solstice]

instead of now when its all worth pennies

same for logs

[restive storm]

or when it made sense to mine essence on my iron

[dawn jackal]

but also at the end of the day no one wants to click a coal rock

[meager flame]

Well tbf

[restive storm]

and not have a 2m stack of ess from slayer

[dawn jackal]

like people might think they wanna click a coal rock

but they don't

[fresh forge]

Yeh PvM is now the actual source of items not skills - kinda backward

[meager flame]

The people mining ess were getting hoed the whole time lmao

It was funny I remember what must have been like

[nocturne solstice]

You're right, thats why they buy it from the GE. So the people that do click coal rock make profit.

[restive storm]

ruined ironman for me and thats when i quit

[nocturne solstice]

Also you can get coal from loads of legit sources now like MLM or Kingdom of Miscellania so you wont be clicking rocks and making that coal profit.

[meager flame]

04 buying it for 30 each then immediately selling it for 3x on member worlds

[dawn jackal]

yea coal rock isn't a perfect example

[fresh forge]

I think the reason they’ve made it like that is because people enjoy PvM

[meager flame]

It’s because real humans don’t want to do most of the games skilling content

[dawn jackal]

i'm just not sure the best gaming experience for people is for them to hop into a discord ask how do i make money and the answer is to go pick flax for 11 hours lol

[meager flame]

And jagex knows it

So they add bottled resources to npcs

[nocturne solstice]

I disagree, most dont but skillers exist so people who do want a chill game do exist.

[meager flame]

Real people happy for the drop and bots getting owned because their market just exploded

[dawn jackal]

skillers don't exist for the money though

[vernal valve]

I think a bigger issue is a lot of skilling/non-PVM ways to obtain resources are genuinely just unviable and terrible

[meager flame]

That’s why zulrah produces infinite flax

[restive storm]

Used to be that the drops from pvm would get sold, but supps, fund the skillers, everyone makes money. Now it’s changed that if you need any sort of resource pvm is the way to get them, it’s dumbed down Ironman to a pvm simulator

[fresh forge]

The content still exists tbf - if you want to mine 50K iron for smithing you can

[nocturne solstice]

I imagine people do have skiller alts for profit

[meager flame]

And everything drops p ess

[dawn jackal]

they exist because of tylenol

[vernal valve]

Like there's a lot of hemming and hawwing about magic log drops or whatever, but like

[dawn jackal]

reaaally rare

[vernal valve]

Magic logs just aren't that useful. Even if they didn't drop from things, cutting magic trees would still not be a productive activity.

[dawn jackal]

maybe some people play an amethyst

[nocturne solstice]

Yeah but less profit.

Which was the point of discussion

[meager flame]

Magic logs are almost the same price they were in 2004

[icy relic]

Magic logs are wonderful

[restive storm]

I mean the profit isn’t even really decent, you’re basically trolling or playing an era locked account if you’re doing this these days

[minor whale]

Quite a few skiller alts exist for sure
If you can afk do something for 400k gp/hr with minimal clicking while playing a main you might as well if you feel like doing it

[fresh forge]

Speaking of skillers - Jiblix is back 😅

[meager flame]

Magic longbows are where the value comes from

[nocturne solstice]

I wouldnt say so, there's a lot of youtube videos on how to make a money making alt

[meager flame]

It’s mostly locked in

[nocturne solstice]

Well yeah thats the point, its trolling these days because of bots.

[meager flame]

Because of alch value

[icy relic]

They suck to gather but they drop just enough from other sources that you can do stuff with them while they still maintain their value

[dawn jackal]

yea, i believe anyone alting seriously for money is playing a vyre runey or rs3 alt

[vernal valve]

You could remove every single gold ore drop from the game, and nobody would mine gold ore. They'd still buy it from NPCs.

Remove that, and mining gold would just be demoted to a bot activity to sell to mains.

[restive storm]

tbh i think its more the excessive pvm drops, over the bots but i get ur point

[dawn jackal]

or they are doing services

[vernal valve]

To be clear, I agree with that. That's my point.

[nocturne solstice]

We can agree with both

[dawn jackal]

any other alt is just a waste of time from the perspective of people making the alt's

[vernal valve]

A lot of talk about PvM devaluing skilling drops is sort of missing the point, that a lot of skilling items that are dropped from PvM outright cannot be gathered in reasonable quantities from their original sources anyway.

[meager flame]

That’s also where the value of nature runes resides

Alch value basically keeps the game together

[nocturne solstice]

Why would it be a waste of time as long as they're making a bond plus a bit more? especially if its afk?

[restive storm]

i mean these are in the bin cuz 40k/200k of modern day players are just abyss rcers with like 114 rc

[vernal valve]

Ali Morrisane singlehandedly propping up the value of runes in the entire game 😭

[icy relic]

The game just doesn't burn resources fast enough at the endgame to make skilling super profitable

[vernal valve]

People complain about RC not producing enough runes, but there's just genuinely RC methods that produce 3m+ per hour in raw, pure GP if sold to an npc

[fresh forge]

Shops both ceil and floor item prices

[meager flame]

We’re kinda going in a weird direction with inflation though

Alch value only works as long as the numbers are large enough to be compelling

[restive storm]

anyone complaining about this is nuts tbf

[dawn jackal]

to add to this it's not strictly a waste of time. it's more that the type of person inclined to make and play an alt is going to make a more effective one than any skilling alt in the game currently can offer

[vernal valve]

oh yeah they're hella wrong, but I still see it constantly

[dawn jackal]

like it's just silly to make an amethyst when vyres exist or rs3s exist

[vernal valve]

like do we really think running to an altar for an hour should be 4m+ an hour let's just be fucking fr here 😭

[nocturne solstice]

Yeah but that would defeat the point of an afk alt. An acc that makes money on the side with minimal input from you while you're on your main making more money or whatever.

[icy relic]

Meanwhile crafting necro runes is 50m/hr on rs3

[dawn jackal]

vyres and rs3s are more afk than amethyst alts

that's the point

you can extremely easily play 6 rs3 alts and do sep or whatever for example

[nocturne solstice]

Yeah but what if they dont want to do that. People can do what they want.

[dawn jackal]

agreed, i just think you're arguing for a person who doesn't really exist

[nocturne solstice]

What if they dont want to train up a new acc to unlock vyres or play rs3 and research rs3 money making methods.

[dawn jackal]

once you are gaming hard enough to make a money maker you're willing to spend 45 hours to make a vyre

[nocturne solstice]

I dont think its insane to suggest people make money making alts and dont want to train and do quests to unlock vyres or play rs3 instead to goldswap or whatever.

[icy relic]

yeh even with a 10:1 exchange rate you can afk 10m/hr at abyss beasts

[dawn jackal]

spiritual warriors are like 1m osrs an hour lmao

[small anvil]

I do know someone with 3 accounts they park at amethyst

[icy relic]

but yeah I don't think I know anyone who rs3 alts

[dawn jackal]

and are more afk than any osrs alt

[small anvil]

It just seems more work than it's worth though

One is a skiller

[dawn jackal]

yea the amethyst alt is silly but whatever

[icy relic]

it could be 10x more money but fundamentally people just hate rs3 lol

[oblique mesa]

Part of that is that PvM has gotten years of decent updates while skilling hasn't had the same level of innovation 🙁

[small anvil]

I asked about how much they made from them at one point and it was barely breaking even on bond cost

[dawn jackal]

it doesn't really make sense for the devs to put a buncha time into skilling

[small anvil]

A bit more but like

They do have 200m mining goal on the skiller though

[dawn jackal]

i bet the numbers on people who salvage from 72-99 vs trial it are egregious

[small anvil]

And they buy 1 year at a time which does give a discount

[vernal valve]

This is absolutely true, skilling progression is completely anemic compared to PvM, but the point stands. I feel like there's a lot of talk about skilling drops coming from PvM being bad, but literally no push to make skilling actually produce resources in quantities that are useful to real people, lol

[icy relic]

It does make sense but you have to incentivize high-level skilling by making the product leave the economy really quickly

[nocturne solstice]

I think it does make sense since skilling is still a big part of the game. We probably have different ideas where they're putting that time though.

[small anvil]

Yeah Skilling that generates consumables is where money comes from

[icy relic]

RS3 has a lot of cases of skilling done extremely well but they also tie skilling very heavily into PvM

[nocturne solstice]

Like, for new minigames, new skill in the game, etc, etc

Somethings are better to focus on than others.

[small anvil]

Invention right?

[dawn jackal]

i'd love for them to put out the number that 95% (or whatever egregious number it is) of post lv 72 xp in skilling comes from salvaging

[icy relic]

Almost every skill is integrated with endgame pvm in some way, shape or form

[dawn jackal]

then they can just flaunt that number in everyone's face when people ask for skilling updates

[small anvil]

Whatever balance it is now will get even more tilted towards salvage as the XP rushers finish 99/200m

Fast07 finished 200m

[nocturne solstice]

surely rushers would be doing trials not salvaging?

[dawn jackal]

all the skillers i know think the glide is pretty good skilling content it's well made

[austere mulch]

Give a stealing creations style content update, which has been popularly requested for years now since it’s a goated mini game, and skillers will be thriving

[small anvil]

That's what I said

[icy relic]

You burn an insane number of runes, you need divine charges to upkeep all your gear, invention is such a crazy item/goldsink that it floats the value of every single piece of pvm content from GWD1 onwards, there's 120 herb, ancient summoning, relic powers from archaeology, incense sticks from firemaking

[small anvil]

The balance moves towards the salvage as the trial people finish

[nocturne solstice]

oh i misunderstood then since you said it would get even more tilted towards salvaging

I thought that mean the rushers would be doing salvaging

[small anvil]

The biggest exit for most items is alchemy

Then there's like some pots that get used and some ammo used

But Ava's makes it slow

And low end ammo is just not consumed at the same rate as generated

[dawn jackal]

yea my point is basically that despite trials being largely acknowledged as good content, with great exp rates (250k / hr post 90) no one does it

so why would jagex spend an ounce more time then they have to on skilling updates

[oblique mesa]

Sailing is a completely different conversation than skilling vs pvm

[small anvil]

That's a bit of them shooting themselves in the foot

Tubu is saying actively Skilling vs afking more

[icy relic]

I exclusively glided to 99

too good to pass up

[small anvil]

Why invest in trying to make a fun Skilling method when people will opt into mining stars

They made like 10 different mining things

[icy relic]

you gotta gate things people want behind skilling

don't need to make it "fun"

[small anvil]

Trawling is like genuinely kinda enjoyable as a relaxed sailing thing

[dawn jackal]

yea people hate that jif

[small anvil]

But awful XP rate

People don't like being forced to do things that are unenjoyable

[icy relic]

too bad, you signed up for it when you chose to play runescape?

[oblique mesa]

Trawling and Port Tasks were fun, it just feels like trolling yourself if you aren't salvaging. The xp for not playing the game is just too good

[icy relic]

people say that shit to irons all the time

[small anvil]

The quest requirements of early are good for the game cuz it gets you to explore more of the game

Port tasks are just so un rewarding

Yay a few coins

[oblique mesa]

Port Tasks also being the "bread and butter" but not giving you anything for doing them is weird

[icy relic]

port tasks not giving dragon nails is insane lol

[dawn jackal]

i agree! i love skilling haha. just overall people view skilling as a chore to get to the good part

so jagex is not very incentivized to make new and engaging skilling content

[icy relic]

I am maxed and I still do random skilling because raids are boring and fucking suck when you've done them thousands of times

[oblique mesa]

Flip side is that people love vale totems so jagex can make good skilling content 😄

[small anvil]

It's like person who loves pvp being shouted down about how pvp could be made better

🙃

Some people just will do anything to avoid x

[dawn jackal]

jagex has been making mostly banger skilling content since like after they released fossil island basically

they are really good at it

[small anvil]

People love mini games

[icy relic]

they've been doing a good job making skilling content a bitter pill to swallow (but swallowable nevertheless)

where they've dropped the ball is giving you a reason to do it because of the fixation on xp rates

[dawn jackal]

the balance is usually dogshit but i'm becoming increasingly convinced that's not totally important

[small anvil]

Like Skilling mini games are really successful generally speaking I think

[dawn jackal]

yea people are craving the 1 handed gameplay experience

[small anvil]

Jagex cares about engagement more than XP rate sanctity

[dawn jackal]

it's a sweet spot for people

[small anvil]

People like semi engaged gameplay

[dawn jackal]

people don't really like to fish sharks and they don't like to drift net

[small anvil]

Not full focus hard

[icy relic]

skilling is truly ezscape in osrs because of how much more fun things are over here, as well as the progression being much smoother and there being fewer dead level brackets

[dawn jackal]

but they love to click bucket at tempoross

[small anvil]

But something you can pay attention to but let your attention drift

[icy relic]

where you are stuck with nothing but dogshit methods

[nocturne solstice]

I thought drift netting was very well regarded?

People say its great xp for hunter and fishing

[small anvil]

Only among skillers

[dawn jackal]

hmmm

it's despised amonsgt skillers

[small anvil]

And that's more that they do it cuz it's the best rate

Not cuz it's enjoyable

[icy relic]

I did drift nets from 92-99 hunt/fish even on my iron

[nocturne solstice]

I dont do it but I sell jute for drift nets

[dawn jackal]

basically it's so strong you have to do it or you're punting

[sacred oracle]

drift net is efficient for mains, i think most people just consider it a fun an unfun game play loop

[icy relic]

it's a ton of clicking but it got two shit skills over with fast

[sacred oracle]

i did a ton of it when i was maxing tho

[dawn jackal]

but it removes 2 very enjoyable skills from the game

(skillers perspective )

[icy relic]

I hate fishing with a passion

it was my last 99 on rs3 as well

well rs2 at the time

[small anvil]

Ehp is a cruel mistress

[dawn jackal]

the actually gameplay of drift net is fine

it's irritating it's reliant on a plugin

but it's just so strong you have to do it

[sacred oracle]

it's just so much clicking and running around for what doesn't feel like actual interaction

[dawn jackal]

is what people hate

[icy relic]

I don't think it's good gameplay but...

[nocturne solstice]

T-there's a plugin?

I didnt even know when i did a bit of it

[sacred oracle]

you just click fish and they kind of seem to generally move in a direction you might want

[nocturne solstice]

it seemed pretty simple? Just give nets to mermaid, net, collect, net, collect

[sacred oracle]

the lack of feeling like you're actually doing stuff while clicking a ton is what made it feel bad to me

[nocturne solstice]

drop everything

[dawn jackal]

it just tells you if you've poked the fish or not

[nocturne solstice]

well, discard

[dawn jackal]

once that plug in came out the method became dead simple

[icy relic]

this isn't good enough

because it doesn't tell you when fish get blocked and you have to re-click them

it's just based on a timer

[dawn jackal]

you can adjust the timer to match

[sacred oracle]

by comparison something like, say, tempoross is a minigame where i felt like my actions had meaning

direct and clear effect

[icy relic]

I wouldn't say your actions don't have meaning

[sacred oracle]

though i guess drift net isn't really a minigame, it's more like a skilling activity

[icy relic]

it's just frustrating when fish randomly swim towards the other net

from the complete other side

[dawn jackal]

they can't do that

they can swim from middle ish across to the other side

they can't swim from one side all the way to the other without you making other errors

the other bad feeling with drift net is at 70/70 you've maxed xp rates

you can get your chiller 95k/125k xp at that point and then it just feels bad to do 70-99

[icy relic]

a mix of scaling and non-scaling activities are good

also I would do tempoross more if crystal harpoon was more accessible

it sucks that you have to get a drop from zalcano vs just crafting it with shards

it's just too rare for irons

[dawn jackal]

but anyway drift net is completely bonkers imbalanced and should be removed so that the skilling community has better reasons to engage with 2 of the best skills please and thanks jagex

[tacit wharf]

aerial fishing....

[icy relic]

I would trawl to 99 if it gave any meaningful xp

but god forbid we powercreep shitass 20 year old methods

[dawn jackal]

trawling does give some substantial outputs right?

[tacit wharf]

500 fish/hr

[dawn jackal]

more that the fish have value

[tacit wharf]

takes you longer to cook the fish than it does for you to catch them

[icy relic]

decent xp and valuable fish don't have to be mutually exclusive

[dawn jackal]

i'm not sure that justifies it being like 0 xp/ hr

[icy relic]

jagex was way too conservative considering you need pretty high sailing and need to upgrade your ship

it's a lot more effort to start it up and actually do the fishing compared to the other methods

[sacred oracle]

aerial fishing is probably my least favorite minigame in the whole game

i've been working on getting fish sack for ages (finished all the other items)

definitely would not want jagex to release anything like it ever again

[dawn jackal]

yea i think they are aware that content is not very fun

[icy relic]

they just took the worst parts of barb fishing

and were like bet

in terms of skilling itself sailing really does show the success of their new design philosophy and I'm thankful for that

but the rarity of uniques for building your boat are so unnecessary

[forest herald]

Yay Sail Trim is fixed!!! Thanks 😊

[fathom island]

Another week another nothing update love to see the weekly updates still being a bait

[narrow folio]

Wonder if burning claws are meta at olm hand now

Also removing drift net fishing is certainly a take...when I did it, I wished there were more or better fish. Seems rewarding enough for a high intensity skill.

[true talon]

Do people no longer eldermaul or dwh the hands?

[gritty frigate]

the trimming update is to fix something for Settled right?

[ember token]

the trimming update was to prevent players from being able to go on a high level boat and trim the sails for big xp drops at low levels

people were not happy about the change, jagex hotfixed it so if you're the captain of the boat, there's no level req to trim the sails

[dawn jackal]

these kind of rates just shouldn't be in the game

idc if you nuke fossil island or tweak these rates

[sacred oracle]

they've been off for the holiday; this is the first week the office has been open again

well, the first week of normal operations post-crimbo/new year at least

i'm sure we'll get more next week

i'm looking forward to the winter summit on the 25th myself

[ember token]

for most years, the first update of the year has been quite large

[tacit wharf]

only because there were no big updates right before the x-max break

[narrow folio]

I heard something about claws with oathplate in solos and now burning got buffed even more for no reason there

[true talon]

ya but sailing took a lot

[narrow folio]

Rest of the update i dont care about. But good news crewmate boosting is getting looked into!

[true talon]

Next big update we getting is DMM which looks like it gonna be fun

with the removal of bank keys, incentives to swap, unlockable powers similar to relics in leagues.

[restive storm]

Still curious to see how they’re gonna deal with a lotta the relics, like the auto banking ones don’t make sense anymore with no bank keys etc.

[meager flame]

ngl i hope if they ever do another skill

its nowhere near the scale of what sailing just did

[ember token]

honestly idk what they could even do that would be close to the same scale as sailing

[restive storm]

i just hope they never do another one tbh

that was giga lame for the amount of time iit took

[zenith pike]

Did you vote for shamanism?

[jagged marsh]

idk if i'd want shamanism

isnt it like, upgrades from invention?

it seems very very tricky to balance

[zenith pike]

my brain immediately went
Shamanism == shaman == windfury
And I got frightened

[jagged marsh]

yeah it was basically divination and invention wrapped into one

poo poo skill

the game is not ready for augments

very eoc stuff

[restive storm]

could only ever affect skill equipment

touching combat w/ it would be a disaster

[meager flame]

nah i voted for sailing i just would rather them not take on something the size of sailing again

[jagged marsh]

this was the original proposal image

[meager flame]

mostly because i feel like at the end of the day the skill is just filled with tons of dead space atm

[jagged marsh]

taming would be cool i think

[restive storm]

yea ik it wouldnt work at all

[meager flame]

basically just would rather not see another multi year saga to get a bunch of islands where we do nothing and ships that go nowhere (yet hopefully)

[jagged marsh]

taming would be another crack at summoning and it could work much better

[meager flame]

i'd rather take a faster skill to implement so they can get on with adding reasons i'd actually want it to exist if they do this again

[jagged marsh]

make it skilling focused instead of combat and skilling focused

[restive storm]

im at the point where ive been trying to brainstorm prayer ideas, because i feel like the only room available to expand it since its so OP is longer term usage, at less prayer drain

[jagged marsh]

i really like the metabolize prayer

[restive storm]

like theres so little to prayer, and its 100% the most busted skill lol

[jagged marsh]

it just reduces hard food delay

[oblique mesa]

I think thats part of the problem of trying to think of new stuff for it, its so simple yet so good

[jagged marsh]

trinitas is poo

[meager flame]

i think its actually very easy

[jagged marsh]

they should really add metabolize at some point

[meager flame]

they were just doing gymnastics to avoid admitting that most people would've taken reskinned prayers that already exist but stronger

[restive storm]

thats why i think they need to focus on less prayer point usage, but for whatever we get significant less prayer drain. But it'd have to have an initial like -1 prayer point activating to prevent flicking

[meager flame]

since thats basically all the current prayer book is in the first place

[zenith pike]

Metabolize and old gambit please

[meager flame]

idk why they felt like they had to like

galaxy brain new never before thought of ideas

they could've just dropped piety 2

its cool if they do come up with a good new idea but lol

[restive storm]

piety 2 with current gear we gonna be ags'ing like 95s

[meager flame]

they didnt have to chase a whole new prayer book trying to do that

[zenith pike]

I mean 2nd iteration gambit

[jagged marsh]

overhead that increases accuracy

yeah i like it

[ember token]

im not against taming but it doesn't feel separated enough from existing skills to be its own thing

[restive storm]

ill accept this

[meager flame]

taming im convinced would've been ass

and their explanation for shamanism was also not going to be very fun

it was just herblore secondaries

[jagged marsh]

i really like the god alignments idea if it meant just a single extra prayer per god

[meager flame]

like

shamanism did go directly at what i ultimately want from a skill though

where they managed to miss it entirely with sailing

[zenith pike]

I really disliked them ngl

[meager flame]

shamanism was about to be a very boring and standard gameplay loop

but the whole structure was going to be based on tangible benefits from doing the skill

[restive storm]

mayyyyyne do i got news for u

[jagged marsh]

guthix = metabolize (less food delay)
armadyl = gambit (overhead accuracy)
zamorak = revenge (redemption with damage boost)

[meager flame]

where sailing i think got a pretty "fun" gameplay loop in the act of sailing

but released with negative reasons to actually do the skill

[jagged marsh]

id give the accuracy overhead to armadyl

[oblique mesa]

Please no taming, pets are already enough of a visual clutter.

Will just make entity hider manditory at that point

[restive storm]

id literally rather see summoning w/ no BoB than any of their ideas

[meager flame]

i mean i have a hard time saying i wouldn't have also taken summoning or dg over what i currently experienced with sailing

i think sailing will be better in the future

[restive storm]

(ofc id rather no new skills at all)

[meager flame]

but old jagex typically released new skills with a reason to actually train them the same day

[restive storm]

i mean its kinda hard for it to get any worse

[hard axle]

add ranching

it's like farming, but animals

[meager flame]

instead of making you wait for the supposedly incoming reasons

[hard axle]

dragon arrowtips, blue dragon scales, new herblore secondaries from animal byproducts

[oblique mesa]

just add salad making to cooking, ezpz

[hard axle]

(vegans hate it)

raise birds that shit out bird nests

[ember token]

raising animals feels like a farming thing, using animals to access new areas is just agility shortcuts with extra steps (and they have a whole bunch of existing skills they could put new areas behind if they wanted, cough cough thieving)

[restive storm]

agree, just use existing skills

[meager flame]

i do think its interesting to see how sailing will play out

[oblique mesa]

Raising animals was going to be a hunter thing, remember when Tecu Salamanders were supposed to be raised

[meager flame]

it feels like they released the beta for the game

[restive storm]

sailing added literally nothing we couldn't have done before

[meager flame]

like you can go run around and sail but you're sailing to nothing

[ember token]

consequences of being overly cautious with the skill launch and not tying it in too much with the rest of the game in case everyone hated it

[meager flame]

im kinda surprised they're that worried

[tender harness]

what?
when on earth prior to sailing could we have ever explored the vast majority of the map including the waters.
when did the game ever have a broken AFK method like salvaging?
yeah you're right sure that we have sepulchre at home (which frankly is bad content) but we got better sepulchre with sailing.

Sailing in the grand scheme did more good for the game than bad. the world expansion by far is the biggest positive.
the skill in of it self is what ever. but its not a fundamentally bad skill, when things like slayer exist

[meager flame]

tbf we never had a problem getting to islands before we had boats

[tender harness]

every single island was scripted on what you could get to with the charter system outside of the couple quest islands

[nocturne solstice]

We did, we had to build boats (Lithreken and Fossil island)

[meager flame]

and also while we can get onto the water now

[round lintel]

To be honest the major flaws are: skill is not integrated to the rest of the game so is like playing in a bubble, the esailing and exploration part is minimal because most of the incentives are not sailing type aka frost dragons, salvaging, etc.

[meager flame]

its not like theres actually anything interesting currently on said water

so its kinda incomplete currently

they built the method and the areas to put the cool stuff in

[nocturne solstice]

I found the island that are on the water interesting. Charting was fun as well with some neat flavor, I also enjoyed the random castaways when I first saw em.

[meager flame]

but they didnt actually make the cool stuff yet

so we'll just have to see i guess

[round lintel]

Combat for some reason sucks, and i dont know why they decided it was good enought to put it out there

[tender harness]

people already know they rushed the skill early. that is obvious. they got it out before year end so people had time with it. to figure out the intricacies, bugs and what ever.
asking for integration into the rest of the ecosystem? give it time. theres already small pieces but a lot of it if I had to guess was put to the back side in order to make their deadline to get people the skill

[nocturne solstice]

I agree with ya but I wouldn't call it major. It does feel like a whole separate game but it integrates the world into sailing rather than the other way round. Skills and locations are all tied to sailing but we don't really engage with the mainland.

This is also kinda like, expected.

[meager flame]

and tbh yeah i am somewhat shocked at ship combat releasing as is

[restive storm]

we couldve had literally all the world expansion without sailing itself lol heck we could even have driven the boat the same way its just weird being a skill

[ember token]

they never wouldve done either of those things without it being a skill

[meager flame]

im even more surprised at their slow reaction to ship combat though

i think they were somehow actually surprised by the reaction to it

but i cant figure out how

[restive storm]

woulda saved a ton of dev time and probably woulda had a lot cooler stuff if we just did it that way 🙁

[nocturne solstice]

I doubt that heavily

[tender harness]

we could have had slayer integrated as part of combat skills and not at all be a skill.
Runecraft could be a subset of magic and removed from a skill.
firemaking and fletching could all be intertwined with wood cutting and just one skill
the same logic can be applied to everything.
end of the day its a new skill. was rushed people who tell you its not are lying they know it was
give it time and reserve judgement for the actual meat and potatoes coming this year imo

[restive storm]

theres no shot they knew from beta that it was a disaster

[meager flame]

driving the boat is basically the entire dev cycle

[nocturne solstice]

You're just asking for sailing as is and removing the little box called "sailing" at the skills tab

[meager flame]

so we wouldn't have had that if they didnt include gaining exp for the skill

[nocturne solstice]

That's kinda silly

[meager flame]

that part was probably very easy for them lol

[restive storm]

im not really asking for that either, driving the boat around the water i hate honestly

thats why i asked to make shipwrecks not move initially and every1 thought i was crazy, then they made all double spots so we didnt have to drive around

[round lintel]

I meant major on the scheme of the skill not like is major issues overall in the gameplay itself

[restive storm]

low and behold, cuz it sucks to do

[meager flame]

tbh i think most parts of sailing are like an 8 out of 10

[nocturne solstice]

You just said they could've had literally all the world expansion and the boat sailing without it being a skill. How is that not asking for sailing to be sailing but just not a skill?

[meager flame]

they just get a 0 for reward space and combat

which is crazy bc like

[restive storm]

i bbeen asking that they dont do it at all

[meager flame]

from my pov those are two of the most important parts lol

[restive storm]

and just let us charter to the ~3 islands with anything worth doing

[nocturne solstice]

Yeah, for it not to be a skill.

[round lintel]

Like i got 99 on my main but what i didnt like was i had to do salvaging for 60% of the xp for logs and i still didnt complete them

[tacit wharf]

🍿 see yall try to argue with squint (sailer hater from day 1)

[nocturne solstice]

Which is what I said, you just dont want it to be a skill since you think it could all have been implemented without being a skill.

[restive storm]

🙏 i been holding it down for ages since the OG sailing disc

[nocturne solstice]

"had to do" is a strong sentence there since you coulda done trials or port tasks.

[tender harness]

I just wish they had thought better about 72 - 99 sailing
literally full sending gwenith or salvaging is just miserable.
port tasks are pet content

[nocturne solstice]

Trials are objectively better but salvaging is objectively still really damn good and super afk

[round lintel]

I said for logs

I had to do it

[nocturne solstice]

Gotta do trials for boats paint logs dont ya?

[ember token]

17.3m sailing xp here and i still havent finished salvaging logs

[meager flame]

im telling you its the 0 out of 10 reward space

[dawn jackal]

gwenith is pretty good content

[meager flame]

seeping through the cracks

[tender harness]

Gwenith is awful content after 100 laps

[nocturne solstice]

i see what you mean tho taco

[zenith pike]

Hate with purpose and reason isn’t bad

[restive storm]

i agree, i did a lotta port tasks on main, but it was laughable the effort that got put into the reward space there lmao

[dawn jackal]

what do you want them to do lol

it's an osrs skill

[meager flame]

like port tasks just give you placeholder looking gp rewards

[round lintel]

yeah thats what I am saying i didnt like that I had to do it for 60-70

%

[hard axle]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1396271820054728754/1458426785367855197/IMG_8246.png?ex=695f9949&is=695e47c9&hm=baa0381be7be69fab6953ce6b203600805b126921418ad2cd642ab308efaeb03&

NAH

[meager flame]

and im sitting there like

[hard axle]

NAH

[meager flame]

really tho

[dawn jackal]

you take a gameplay loop and repeat it to infinity to get 99

[hard axle]

you guys are vile for this

[dawn jackal]

and the glide is a pretty good gameplay loop

[hard axle]

cant have SHIT in this game

[dawn jackal]

not perfect but pretty good

[tender harness]

it felt like there was meant to be a bridge from like 90 to 99 that isnt gwenith glide

[meager flame]

idk how they could

[nocturne solstice]

Iunno, imo clogging kinda sets you up for stuff you dont really want to do.

[dawn jackal]

they are indeed releasing another trial

[hard axle]

[meager flame]

you're already blasting exp at glide

if there was another one around 90 lmao

[hard axle]

[nocturne solstice]

i understand not liking it, but you could not do it? personally id have to go to lower level salvages if i wanted to clog and i aint doing that

[restive storm]

cant wait to also not do that one

[dawn jackal]

yes glide is getting to be almost 270k / hr

[tender harness]

doing glide 72 - 99 is just miserable content. especially with pre nerf extractor

[meager flame]

i mean i actually do agree with that

i think if you at any point design something where you get like

less than 2m exp in and then you hit the method you're going to sit with for the next 11-12m exp

thats never going to feel good

it happens a lot in osrs too

and i dont think it ever went well

[tender harness]

combat tasks could have been fun but combat is a t hing right now

[restive storm]

the MOST repeatable content, with some form of variety being port tasks, literally got thrown 1gp/xp and 1/100 shark paint from lvl 1 to lvl 99 cuz they couldnt be bothered adding rewards

[dawn jackal]

mfers who hit the lode for 275 hours complaining about 40 hours of gliding

[restive storm]

that was just such a crazy flop lol

[dawn jackal]

crazy comms

[restive storm]

lode is like 50x more afk than glide what are we talkin ab here

[narrow folio]

Those two things arent even compwrable

[restive storm]

those two arent even remotely comparable lol

[tender harness]

crazy statement when you're comparing an apple to a sack of potatoes.

[dawn jackal]

this was in response to doing the same activity for 10m xp

[meager flame]

idk i have two maxed accounts and im pretty confident that sitting at any single piece of content for the vast majority of your exp just isn't good

[tender harness]

its not the same comparison

you cannot state that and make such a blanketly wrong comparison of two different intensity methods for skilling

[meager flame]

its monotonous basically

[restive storm]

ill at least credit it, that it gave me a laugh

[dawn jackal]

i was directly responding to this portion of the conversation

[meager flame]

like to put it into perspective

[dawn jackal]

thank you all for jumping to conclusions

[tender harness]

thank you for making such a comedic and blatantly wrong statement

[restive storm]

that doesnt make ur comparison any better