game-update

[tender harness]

Too bad tob is plagued with justiciar

[obsidian venture]

But yet people send it

[tender harness]

The fever dream let us combine justiciar and inq already

[obsidian venture]

New content releases near gear or consumables and you take it back to cox/tob pipeline

and to- nvm there's barely any customization there

[tender harness]

You mean toa with all these invos? Where they said they'd add more? And turns out high invo runs have almost no customization?

[obsidian venture]

you can bring a seercull and bd!

wow

https://tenor.com/view/mommy-dance-dancing-grandma-floss-gif-8359016448227801777

[formal sentinel]

Just learned about mining infernal shale without a pickaxe or meeting the level requirement.
It's not something I wanna do for a long time, but had to do for a bit cause it's just too dumb

[obsidian venture]

Toa could have been better if they added invos every 3 months or so

I know that's TALL order but it could have made it more interesting

[tender harness]

Shale the money maker they casually name dropped in a blog and killed

[formal sentinel]

It's still gotta be a few mil/hour

I spent a couple minutes and made 160k

[tender harness]

Its tanked hard

[formal sentinel]

I believe it. RIP

I planned on doing it earlier, but realized I was 5 levels short, so I didn't

Then learned I could just do it anyways, but I learned that too late for the good profits

[knotty herald]

it's about 12 times more valuable than your game will imply it is

[nocturne solstice]

death cofferable?

[hard axle]

Still waiting for Bandos str on justi man

I support the bandosian justiciar idea on Reddit

[meager flame]

it honestly shouldn't stay very valuable for long

you can 3t enough to make a full oathplate item in like an hour

so its going to be one of those things where if people actually start doing it it'll just die as soon as there aren't like

2342342 people killing yama

and god forbid bots get down there

[hasty shard]

i really wish they went for a more accessible 3t angle with shale and not 'skilling NEEDS a moneymaker!!'

[hard axle]

I’m happy it at least requires AKD unlikely nightmare requiring basically nothing

[hasty shard]

like they were so close but the xp is 50k/h and you have to manually click each shale piece

is it tooo much to ask for something thats just like 3t fishing

[meager flame]

yeah the shale in the inventory crushing part was honestly kind of

idk man you click a lot

and then you make the 9 plates and that takes a totally excessive amount of time

and then to top that off

there is a cutscene of you smacking an anvil

[hasty shard]

like you're just forcing the apm on people thats a part of the turnoff imo

[meager flame]

just to waste more time

i swear it took like

20 minutes to make the 9 bars lol

maybe it didn't really but it actually felt like it was taking that much time

lol you combine the shale and the shards into 10 fragments that you then put in water and watch a bar fill up

click it when the bar is full to get the cooled down lump

then you put it on an anvil and click once per tick until the bar is depleted

then the bar regens and you do it again for awhile

and thats 1 bar

thankfully i will never do it again because once was definitely enough

[vernal valve]

late on this but this is genuinely so egregiously absurd that i cannot believe this comparison was being argued genuinely, so I have to break it down

The problem isn't that the contract costs are consumed "up front", or that 1.7m is bigger than 700k

Even ignoring that the 1.7m value was arrived at beyond questionably, using that many supplies in inferno is probably a 2 hour+ learner run, where there's not even death costs on failure

You wouldn't compare 1.7m in supplies in the Inferno to one Contract attempt just because they're both one attempt at a piece of content, that's ridiculous

The comparison would be 2 hours of an Inferno learner run vs 2 hours of doing a contract

If you look at that, it's painfully obvious why Inferno supply costs are irrelevant pennies compared to Orb/Contract complaints.

[nocturne solstice]

Well see the point was about getting to the crux of the complaints. Why do people hate contracts so much? The slogan people chant is that it's using GP to gatekeep content. The 1.7m inferno run comparison was to show that content has always been gatekept by GP so it's not about GP gatekeeping content it's something else about contracts that make them disliked.

I don't think a reactionary response to everything by saying "It's shit, delete it" is healthy. You should investigate why it's shit and try to make it not shit, if you just get rid of things without understanding why people hate it then you'll just make the same mistake again.

Geekaleek and you just now made the argument that it's not the same because of how long the content it. The inferno costs don't feel bad or is "irrelevant" because you spend a long time at the content.

So does that mean people will be happy with contracts if you got to spend more time at Yama before it got consumed?

[vernal valve]

Yeah, they both cost GP, but the quantity of GP isn't in the same league. It just isn't an honest comparison, and that's obvious once you step back and look at it more critically. Pound for pound, minute for minute, contracts and orbs are significantly more expensive to learn than inferno. Inferno really isn't that insanely expensive to do.

Like, Contracts and Orbs being too expensive is a valid criticism. Responding with "well, should NOTHING cost GP?!" is insane. Inferno and Contract GP costs aren't in the same universe. They feel worse and are absurdly higher. It simply is not an honest comparison.

[chrome lantern]

Not related to the game update, but since I've been chatting here a bunch lately, would like to direct attention to #achievements message

[nocturne solstice]

So your argument is strictly that GP/hr, contracts are significantly higher and that we should be comparing gp/hr instead of gp/attempt?

[nocturne solstice]

Oh dang gz on the sigil dude

This isnt a gotcha question btw, I'm just wanting to be sure I understand your point correctly

[vernal valve]

Yes, because the only reason the Inferno number "looks high" compared to Contracts/Orbs is because the Inferno attempt is basically assuming someone is doing a full 2 hour+ learner run, as opposed to a single fight that probably ended in minutes.

[nocturne solstice]

Would contracts be acceptable if they allowed multiple attempts then? or even unlocked the content for say 24hrs?

Just a thought on how to improve them

[vernal valve]

Not to mention that the Orb/Contract fights are also probably draining you 500k death fees a pop every time you fail

[vernal valve]

I mean, allowing multiple attempts is kind of just a different way of making contracts more common, tbh

Instead of dropping 3x as many keys, you make keys give you 3 attempts

The "as many attempts as you want for 24 hours" thing has...negative externalities, I would say, lol.

Basically encouraging anyone getting them to have to set aside a day to doom-send attempts until they win, lest they "waste" their key.

[nocturne solstice]

You're right, so I'm leaning towards the time lock rather than attempt lock. A point the other users brought up earlier was that it sucked dying immediately and losing the contract price.

[nocturne solstice]

to be fair we're playing a subscription game so we're constantly living that

But more seriously if the contracts weren't too expensive then it should be alright?

They wouldnt doom send since they know they can make the cash back after like, an hour of vorkath or something

[vernal valve]

Kind of? Like, if they were like 50k, then they'd functionally be pennies compared to the 500k death fee you're eating every time you fail

But the problem is, at that point

Why do they exist at all?

[nocturne solstice]

true, since the entire point is to transfer wealth

[vernal valve]

Like, the reason they exist is as a way to extract GP from richer players

[chrome lantern]

To screw ironmen

[vernal valve]

Yeah

[vernal valve]

Effectively, yeah. If they're too common, they're just annoying for ironmen while being pennies for mains. If they're too rare, they're insufferable for ironmen and mains still don't really like it.

[nocturne solstice]

500k I feel is a reasonable place right? It's not completely insignificant but not debilitating.

[vernal valve]

If a sweetspot exists, it's really hard to hit.

[nocturne solstice]

Especially if it gives 24hr though that might be much, maybe 12hr or something idk

[vernal valve]

idk it just feels redundant

[chrome lantern]

At that point why not just 2x death fee

[vernal valve]

again, if we go with that example

[nocturne solstice]

For the wealth transfer bit

I wonder if it would be more acceptable if the price was higher but there was no death fee?

[vernal valve]

500k for a day of attempts, the keys themselves are of very minimal value. Most of the money would be in death fees.

[nocturne solstice]

It would also make you feel more comfortable sending attempts with BiS gear

[vernal valve]

In order for something like that to retain a price of 500k gp, it'd have to be obnoxiously rare

[nocturne solstice]

like 1m cost for example, 24hr of attempts, no more death fees.

[vernal valve]

Which means that...it probably wouldn't transfer much wealth, since there wouldn't be too many

[vernal valve]

This could work for wealth transfer, kind of. But at the cost of losing part of the sink that death coffer exists to offer at all.

(and it would probably still end up super annoying for ironmen)

It'd basically be a tradeoff.

[nocturne solstice]

Thats true but thats what the point of the contracts should be anyway right? instead of gp sink its gp transfer.

[vernal valve]

This would probably be too good, since in the case of hardmode bosses like awakened/yama, it would probably actually make them cheaper for people to learn than if death fees were just normal, lol

[nocturne solstice]

Hmm i think it could be balanced with the 24 hour bit then, maybe 2hr instead?

Yama is like 8m boss how long are the awakened?

You could send a good amount of attempts with 2 hours

looks like awakened levi is 6 minutes ish? we could round that to 8 as well to be super generous

[vernal valve]

like 4-6 minutes, other than whisp

Vard in particular you can die a lot at, because the fight isn't very long at all

[nocturne solstice]

hmm if we assume 8m to be generous then 2 hours would be 15 attempts. Could reasonably knock that down to 12 or 13 to account for downtime and stuff

[vernal valve]

The main issue with a 2hr key like that is the rarity it'd need to be to maintain a 500k price point

[nocturne solstice]

Definitely

[vernal valve]

Orbs are 800k each rn with people guzzling hundreds of them for a single Awakened Vard KC

For a 2hr attempt key to retain 500k it needs to be comically rare. Which also means not many people are getting it, which means the actual wealth transferred is totally insignificant.

[lament peak]

It's a cosmetic that requires you to be skilled and geared enough to clear it. I don't see why it's not unlockable with 1 contract (maybe with increased rarity from dossiers) and freely repeatable, so long as the drops aren't enhanced.
The other contracts should be massively scaled down in difficulty and be distraction and diversion content for duos. Like oh cool we got a (untradable?) contract let's run it real quick for slightly enhanced loot.

[chrome lantern]

Also the Aether runes are crazy

[vernal valve]

i'd be surprised if they don't change that tbh but it is so funny that it was put in lmao

[obsidian venture]

The other contracts are just as worse as the radiant ones

Which makes even less sense

[nocturne solstice]

I think tweaking the drop rates would be the easiest part. As long as the price isnt too expensive it's fine.

[chrome lantern]

They have tradeable loot though ;)

[nocturne solstice]

500k was just a number picked to make it still be worth existing to transfer wealth

[obsidian venture]

Wow!

[vernal valve]

That's my point, though. Is it possible to design a drop rate where it stays at 500k? Yeah, absolutely. But at that point, what do you think the daily trade volume would look like?

It's not much of a wealth transfer if only like, 100 are traded at 500k, for example.

[obsidian venture]

At the end of the day, they did this system twice and got it wrong both times

[nocturne solstice]

Really hard to tell to be honest. Orbs are going at 32/hr right now and contracts up to 321/hr being bought

depends on the contract, was quoting glyphic just then

[nocturne solstice]

Yeah I agree with that

Im curious how it can be improved though rather than just trashing everything

[obsidian venture]

It can be improved simply by using it once to unlock it. Think of the brittle key for dusk/dawn

[nocturne solstice]

I dont think there's enough accounts being created for it to maintain value and to fulfill its purpose of transfering wealth with that approach

[vernal valve]

I mean, put another way, if we assume, say, 20 Awakened vard attempts an hour, the hypothetical 2 hour entry key is effectively 32m in Orb at current prices (800k), not counting death fees. So, 40 orbs.

[obsidian venture]

They could have made it untradeable and have it come from a dossier, which should have been on a different table

So it wouldn’t gatekeep anyone really

[winged mantle]

if it costed 30-40 contracts of a kind to permentately unlock the kit fight I would grind out contracts for that on an iron

[vernal valve]

I just don't see how the hypothetical time-limited key would transfer significant wealth, tbh. If it lasts any significant amount of time, it drastically reduces the amount of keys needed to learn the content, which also drastically cripples the demand.

[nocturne solstice]

That is an interesting idea... and not something that doesn't exist already in osrs.

[lament peak]

Once to unlock and untradable, probably.
If it's a duplicate you reroll for a random untradable acquisition contract.
Not every little item that drops from a boss needs to be profitable.

[humble fractal]

I mean. Am I the only one here like...I probnably won't even interact with Yama because it's explicitly designed for Duos and I barely complete solo content?

[nocturne solstice]

We do have a few chargescape items that become perm after contributing a large amount

[obsidian venture]

On irons sending this content, it would legitimately take thousands of Yama kc to warrant it

Which is bizarre

[humble fractal]

Like....I get having challenging content for even the most sweaty crazy players but like. Zulrah and regular gauntlet are challenges for me

[obsidian venture]

With current rates and the difficulty

[vernal valve]

regular yama's honestly not that bad, fun fight

contracts are sort of the issue of the day

[nocturne solstice]

The demand will be for the cosmetic and for speedrunners. I think the time limited design would give players a reasonable amount of attempts but still have a reason to buy another one.

I do agree that it'll be tough to balance the drop rate and the access duration though

definitely something to tweak

[humble fractal]

Look I (currently) struggle to clear regular gauntlet without choking near the end of the fight. I went from a 1/10 clear rate to about 55% and it'll probably improve. Zulrah....well I just want that god damn snekling

[obsidian venture]

Speedrunners aren’t going to engage with a poor system

[nocturne solstice]

Nah you can do it solo fairly easily

[humble fractal]

And I'm almost maxed. I guess that's just getting the flow and mechanical aspects down.

[meager flame]

i mean

[humble fractal]

<--- I struggles with "easy" bosses

[meager flame]

its okay to admit the improvement is the removal of it

[nocturne solstice]

I mean you say that but havent there already been awakened speedruns and port khazard being instane doing that 54 orb run?

[obsidian venture]

Majority of them already hate toa speeds and it’s the most unpopular one. These contracts are toa on crack

[meager flame]

not every idea is a good one

[obsidian venture]

That’s not a speedrun

[meager flame]

pretty sure the orbs/contract thing has shown which side of that the idea is on for this game

[obsidian venture]

That’s a self imposed challenge

[nocturne solstice]

Thats true, but it's the lazy approach imo. It's fine to try to improve things and just ditch it as a last resort.

lazy might be the wrong word

easy?

[meager flame]

honestly just orbs proved they really shouldn't

but i guess we had to try it again for science

[obsidian venture]

Awakened “speedruns” aren’t really cared for in the community

[meager flame]

yeah but sometimes easy is also correct like

[nocturne solstice]

They might have the numbers that we dont see to justify their multiple attempts at orbs tbh

[meager flame]

gatekeeping people from challenging themselves might just not be a good idea in general

[nocturne solstice]

Like maybe there's the whole 95% of osrs wealth is held by the top 5% of players or something

[humble fractal]

I mean yeah

[vernal valve]

Feel like the point's being missed here. Here's the fundamental issue:

• People do not like the prohibitive GP costs to learn content that Orbs and Contracts enforce.
• To address the above, your suggestions are effectively different variations of significantly cutting down the gp/hr cost the keys force on the content.
• If the gp/hr cost from the key is significantly reduced, then the wealth transfer is also significantly reduced. Yes, with a hypothetical 2 hour key, they could make the rate like 1/10000 or whatever to get at their desired price per key, but the rarer you make it, the less enter the game. Which means the less players selling it. Which means less wealth transfer.

[small anvil]

making the hard content inaccessible to the majority of players that could enjoy it is stupid

when they barely make content for that community anyway

[humble fractal]

It's a problem alongside merch clans actively manupulating prices

[meager flame]

and tbh

[vernal valve]

Other than the idea of making the keys remove death fees and instead "offloading" that cost into the cost of the key itself, nothing suggested changes those fundamental issues.

[meager flame]

i dont even think the wealth distribution in osrs is actually a huge problem at the moment

i could see it going that way if like

gp/hr stays static and we start actually paying like 10b for real items to use

[vernal valve]

yeah, I think inflation is a bigger issue than wealth distribution, really

[obsidian venture]

Wealth distribution kinda means fuck all tbh

[nocturne solstice]

• I agree with that point, no arguments there.
• Correct, this is to address the first point
• Yes I also agreed and said that tweaking the drop rate and the access duration would be the hard bit.

[vernal valve]

which is best fixed with better/more gold sinks

[small anvil]

orbs at least dropped at a much higher rate than contracts while doing the content

[obsidian venture]

People are rich from doing content

[nocturne solstice]

What point did I miss?

[meager flame]

it would just be a problem if you had like

[obsidian venture]

Yes

[small anvil]

the starting point of this discussion seems to be you assuming that wealth redistribution is a necessary thing

[meager flame]

incredibly insane gaps where only doing the new content could get you anything and all old content wasn't worth the time

[small anvil]

instead of questioning whether it has to happen in the first place

[meager flame]

but thats never actually happened

you can make quite a lot of gp by just potting pretty much anything

[humble fractal]

I mean

[nocturne solstice]

Hahah but don't let that hold you back! Not saying you should go straight to yama but try out the bosses like scurry, moons, royal titans, and work your way up!

[vernal valve]

The point is that orbs are already like 5-10% of DT2 boss profits. Again, any suggestion that significantly eats into the cost to use them would mean they are either worth too little to meaningfully redistribute wealth, or they're too low volume to do so.

[humble fractal]

I gotta admit there is a lot of content that isn't worth much GP/hr

[obsidian venture]

It’s very hard nowadays to not make gp doing some piece of pvm content

[vernal valve]

Orbs are very expensive, but they're still not actually redistributing that much wealth.

[meager flame]

yeah but even content thats bad if you do it to greenlog or whatever you have hundreds of mil

in the bank

and thats for stuff that sucks

[vernal valve]

That is the point. Like, you kind of can't really lower them that much without the wealth distribution thing being kind of sunk completely.

[humble fractal]

Like I remember back in the day when my buddies dad was just casually camping steel dragons because the d legs/skirt was good enough gp/hr

[meager flame]

if you do the same thing to a raid for example you're well on your way to having a max bank

[humble fractal]

Like, 99% of players block those tasks now

[nocturne solstice]

I understand that but I see it as "It will be difficult to balance to make it worthwhile" rather than "it's impossible"

[humble fractal]

A big thing that would help is further eradication of skilling bots

[chrome lantern]

Orbs are an extremely tiny portion of gp/hr from DT2 bosses

[obsidian venture]

^

[humble fractal]

Amethyst is only profitable because it's -highly- consumed, and almost requires 50% max exp to mine at all

[meager flame]

yeah its like 10% if we're being generous but realistic

or at least it was when i did the math

idk when that way

was*

[humble fractal]

I don't even have DT2 done. I just got sote done and that was a slog

[small anvil]

like why is jagex incentivizing people to kill black demons

it's not fun

whats the point of rewarding people excessively for doing so

[obsidian venture]

Black demons being more money than some bosses is laughable

[meager flame]

its because they were trying to cater to everyone

[obsidian venture]

And they shouldn’t

[humble fractal]

Sarachnis is effectively no GP/hr

[small anvil]

it's boring and no one wants to do it

[meager flame]

its the same reason they went crazy and tried to create a whole skilling method

[small anvil]

which means its bot fodder

[meager flame]

and the oathplate shard mistake happened

[humble fractal]

It's a fun simple, entry/mid tier boss. Cool pet too

[meager flame]

due to them wanting mining to be included

[small anvil]

sarachnis is ~1.5m / hr after supplies

[nocturne solstice]

I would say because one of the original complaints about orbs was price too high.

Contracts from demons means more contracts (lower price) and people who can't do the content (yama) can also get in on the wealth transfer.

[meager flame]

like realistically

[humble fractal]

I got my leggy pet so ....

[vernal valve]

I mean, it kind of is? Like, the removing death fee thing to make it more palatable to learners and making the higher price tag more approachable kind of works. But I'm not sure that's really an upside, because we're getting rid of a sink in exchange for wealth transfer in a game that desperately needs more sinks of all kinds.

[small anvil]

the wealth transfer thing is just such a useless goal

[meager flame]

they should just come up with fun maybe secret ways of permanently unlocking things like contracts and stop trying to create some kind of wealth transfer admission ticket drop

[humble fractal]

This is mostly petscape to me now. I do activities that have pet chances.

[chrome lantern]

Nah trust me it's great and definitely not bot content, just like Zombie Pirates!

[vernal valve]

(Not even accounting for Ironmen btw, which are a whole different nightmare to balance around)

[obsidian venture]

It was high and didn’t warrant a good reward minus a cosmetic. Effectively 1nd content which is what endgamers dislike

[meager flame]

people would have a lot of fun figuring out how to activate them and then do them

jagex would get their spectacle event on twitch for a few days

and the players actually doing the content would have fun

[nocturne solstice]

I definitely understand your concerns there. To be clear though the normal version would still have death fees so a sink is still there. We could also just use this piece of content as wealth transfer and have other pieces of content be the GP sink. It doesn't have to do everything.

[obsidian venture]

Personally I like sending awakened vard for fun, but only outta pure boredom because it’s simply not worth to do so

[meager flame]

because stuff like that is the real value in doing end game stuff like the inferno

its kind of a community event where people watch and try to figure things out

and it draws a bunch of attention to the game

they really dont need skilling methods or anything

[nocturne solstice]

I think what you said is a whole different point but a valid criticism for future content. I think that's why they added the acquisition contracts to yama so it didnt feel like 1nd content.

Obviously that didnt work out either though since people still hate contracts

[obsidian venture]

Endgame content should simply focus endgame players. It should be content that early/midgame pvmers aspire to do in the future

[small anvil]

Why are the acquisition contracts harder than oath recolor

[obsidian venture]

You don’t need for them to make gp off this

[chrome lantern]

INSANE challenge (it was actually just not tested and bugged)

[meager flame]

honestly testing and lack of interest

[nocturne solstice]

I agree with that, maybe they should just stop making hardmode bosses and instead the content should just be designed to be hard.

[obsidian venture]

By focusing multiple groups, they made a poor update overall

[nocturne solstice]

No easy version and just focus on it being a good experience for HLC

[meager flame]

like

[vernal valve]

Anyway, I think most of this is largely a futile thought experiment either way. I think it's pretty clear that both orbs and especially contracts could have been done better, 100%. It's not like they're the absolute best possible implementation of a ticket system.

But I really just think the system is fundamentally flawed. It just has things pulling it in too many directions at once. Is there a sweetspot where people don't hate it as much as orbs/contracts? Absolutely, there's definitely a much better implementation than both, but I'm not convinced it wouldn't be a better use of dev team to just shelve the idea and pursue different implementations.

[meager flame]

the oathplate acquisition contracts might have some good solution or problem that jagex should address

but we'd never know because almost nobody will send one to begin with

[obsidian venture]

It doesn’t really fit with what they said, the debate for mid/endgame content is in the air, the raidiant cosmetic is disliked by a good amount of endgame pvmers

[vernal valve]

yeah idk what they're gonna do about this

people just do not care to attempt those

which is genuinely depressing

new endgame boss content and people just...don't wanna do it

[obsidian venture]

Even gnome said this is shit content and he won’t make guide or engage with it unless it’s fixed a lot

[meager flame]

jagex just took the awakeners orb concept to its natural conclusion and proved that if the cost is prohibitive

people simply dont play

[chrome lantern]

Don't forget it's a "duo" boss too :p

[meager flame]

thats actually common knowledge as far as mmo design goes

the majority of players do not rise to an excessive challenge

they quit

they just proved it again

[upbeat moss]

cant believe you cant duo yama

[lament peak]

It would have been so simple to force duo Yama, just require 2 sigils to be activated in a short window

[obsidian venture]

It also would have been simple to make all duo contracts

[nocturne solstice]

I don't think it's futile since it's an opportunity for lesson learned. Hopefully this highlights what the core design issues were with contracts and orbs and Jagex avoids those pitfalls in the future.

Not that I'm saying that they should bring Orbs 3.0 but this was a good discussion to highlight player concerns that Jagex might not understand from a developer's perspective.

[meager flame]

tbf

[obsidian venture]

Which they easily could have been

[meager flame]

i hate to say it but the contract yama fights aren't even as advertised

they're not bespoke boss fights that are interesting

[small anvil]

So many mechanics aren't mentioned on the contract

[obsidian venture]

They’re genuinely dull and long

[meager flame]

they're literally what would happen if you could have a 600 invocation yama

its everything that was wrong with high end toa

condensed in a single step

[small anvil]

Just you have to pay for the privilege

[vernal valve]

I mean, I definitely don't think learning from it is pointless, I just mean pursuing this particular type of key system is probably best avoided.

It's a bit moot anyway, as Goblin already said they were planning on avoiding it from here on out regardless. But yeah, I get what you mean.

[meager flame]

which tbh thats super concerning lol

[small anvil]

They keep learning the wrong lessons

Next time they will just not make high end content

[obsidian venture]

They actually took the worst parts of toa, the ones where only high invo folks deal with, and added to this boss and scaled it some more

[nocturne solstice]

I also say that since a lot of the "parts" of orbs already existed in game.

Entry fees existed (wildy bosses) and entry items existed (brittle key for gargoyles) so maybe they thought it was a bright idea to combine it all and make it wealth transfer.

[meager flame]

they just need to figure out how to do complicated instead of numerically terrifying

[vernal valve]

It's a bit sad that I don't think we'll ever get commentary on how the Yama development ended up looking like this, since the jmods will get absolutely piledriven by the community if they do.

[small anvil]

Entry fee is per death

And it's anti bot stuff

[vernal valve]

Because I'm genuinely very curious as to how Contracts ended up as they did, tbh

[small anvil]

And not that effective

[meager flame]

they do a lot of this boss is supposed to be hard therefor a single mistake should hit you for at least 75 damage if not an outright death and the boss should be an absolute brickwall of hp that takes forever to die

and they need to stop

like just never do that again

they need to make interesting mechanics that are hard and maybe a bit complex

[small anvil]

It very much reads as contract fights were designed by someone who said ok now I gotta make it hard, let's just throw everything at it

[nocturne solstice]

I hate to burst your bubble but I'm pretty sure someone just took a quote out of context and lied to you about that goblin thing

I'll double check to be sure but iirc the quote was something more like "We'll avoid locking hardmode behind orbs in the future without significant player feedback during its development"

[meager flame]

instead of just going off the rails and adding big numbers to everything

until it makes people struggle

[small anvil]

Hit harder, tankier yeah that's the trick!

[vernal valve]

yeah that's what I'm referring to, it wasn't out of context, I saw the thread itself 😭

[slender vapor]

Toa balance

🤡

[nocturne solstice]

Ah then you know it's not completely off the table 👀

[small anvil]

It's literally regressing to kalphite queen gwd balancing

[chrome lantern]

And then proceeded to literally not even poll contracts?

[meager flame]

i think

its a budget thing

[small anvil]

Jagex is freaking terrified of people saying no

[vernal valve]

I mean, I'm sure we both know that player feedback is so outrageously negative that if player feedback is involved at all, it'll receive immense pushback.

[obsidian venture]

We already know what’s getting a good amount of dev time 🫠

[small anvil]

And having wasted time

[nocturne solstice]

I understand why they did it. But if they did it in the future thats still a win for you guys

[vernal valve]

But hey, we'll see, I suppose

[meager flame]

it feels like someone running out of time that they were given to do something so instead of coming up with something interesting

they're just like

[nocturne solstice]

Vote no

[meager flame]

fuck yeah big numbers try to do it now

because that takes them about 5 minutes

[obsidian venture]

We would have voted no if they put the question forward correctly

[chrome lantern]

I vote no a lot, it doesn't really do anything

[obsidian venture]

Would have been the easiest downvote in osrs history

[nocturne solstice]

Fair tbh

[chrome lantern]

Another tragedy of the state of the polling system, leading questions with insufficient information, and people not reading polls at all

[obsidian venture]

Orbs was universally disliked

[meager flame]

tbh

[nocturne solstice]

Finally something that isn't pvp getting a failed poll

[obsidian venture]

Contracts wouldn’t have seen the light of day

[meager flame]

i would've taken 1 singular contract over the entire set they made

if it meant they spent enough time on it to make it interesting

[chrome lantern]

You know what's interesting

[vernal valve]

pvp polls are some of the funniest things in the game tbh

[obsidian venture]

Big if ye

[nocturne solstice]

I dunno about 1 single contract but I totally agree with there being waaaay to much

[vernal valve]

I'll never forget them polling "should it be easier to get PK'd at larran's chest?"

[chrome lantern]

You literally sign a contract to fight Yama in the first place, why isn't that one gatekept by consumables :^)

[vernal valve]

like how did they think that was gonna turn out LMAO

[nocturne solstice]

worms and aether catalysts definitely didnt need a contract

[obsidian venture]

So now folks are not even looking forward to the Mohka boss

[meager flame]

i mean

i think the boss fight at the basic level will probably be alright

[obsidian venture]

Because endgame, per usual, gets shit updates or none at all

[meager flame]

i am scared of their attempt at yet another system though

i dont want to experience another unique loot system

lmao

[vernal valve]

250 worms

[chrome lantern]

It's ok the levels 1-4 will be balanced for early midgame and level 8 will just be the same but with 5x more hp and chip (please never do this remotely again)

[obsidian venture]

Minus colo…

[nocturne solstice]

yay

[obsidian venture]

1-4 shouldn’t be for midgame at all

[meager flame]

like yama's base fight

[obsidian venture]

Don’t even want them to think about it

[chrome lantern]

Yeah that was sarcastic

[meager flame]

with no context

[chrome lantern]

I agree with you

[obsidian venture]

Bless

[meager flame]

no loot systems or contracts or anything

[nocturne solstice]

Yeah colo was designed specifically for endgame and I think thats best

[meager flame]

i actually think its a pretty good addition overall

[chrome lantern]

Typing sarcasm is hard

But you're right

[meager flame]

but

lol

[chrome lantern]

I shouldn't write that without clearly labeling in case they take it seriously

[obsidian venture]

Rewards are ass (minus quiver and ralos) but yeah

[meager flame]

the loot systems attached and what they did with contracts and how the contracts actually came out

idk it kinda sucks

[obsidian venture]

Much feels

[chrome lantern]

I edited the message ;)

[nocturne solstice]

As it should be, beat it to get the moneys

[lament peak]

I didn't think all contracts would be prohibitively difficult and require bis. Like only the top .01% can even interact with it.

[nocturne solstice]

Truly for end gamers

[obsidian venture]

The .01 don’t even want to do it

Is how shit it is

[meager flame]

i kinda think rewards being ass is okay in some ways

[nocturne solstice]

Mid gamers get chump change (except for that w1 sunfire plinter nonsense)

[slender vapor]

Endgamers are 1nd'ing

[vernal valve]

yeah tbh I find the most frustrating part about yama is that it felt like a really easy slam dunk, but it's surrounded by what felt like easily avoidable mistakes

[meager flame]

like i wasn't pissed at the inferno because all i got was my cape

[slender vapor]

Gnome won't even make a guide on it

[obsidian venture]

1nd logging off yes

[nocturne solstice]

What, 1nding colo?

[slender vapor]

If the people this content is designed for hate it and won't even do it a second time to teach, you know it's fucked

[meager flame]

no the contracts

[nocturne solstice]

oh, yeah understandable

[meager flame]

colo is actually great as far as being repeatable for loot

[obsidian venture]

Midgame is so buffed that you can spend years doing so, and then you can bash your head on a wall for endgame

[meager flame]

maybe a little op honestly but

colo is a successful attempt by jagex

[small anvil]

Colo is op cuz it's gated by skill

[vernal valve]

imagine a world where colo had real uniques

[nocturne solstice]

Nerf w1 rewards though

[small anvil]

Just like oath contracts if anyone could actually learn to do it consistently

[nocturne solstice]

Make it feather and tar or something

[obsidian venture]

Wave 1 farming shouldn’t have been a thing. Yes

[small anvil]

Too bad it would take bils to do it

[vernal valve]

I mean you can send worm contracts to learn it

But nobody wants to do it bc it blows LMAO

[obsidian venture]

Also… who has done the worm contract 🤣

Bis for heron pet!

[small anvil]

I should check worm process

Prices

They've been going up

[nocturne solstice]

Its only been 3 days so maybe people will develop a strat so they're actually farmable... they did look pretty nuts though so who knows when that'll be

[chrome lantern]

It's kinda tragic when they literally design contracts for ironman consumables and nobody even wants to consider touching them tbh

[obsidian venture]

This is one time where guides are literally in the air

As in, doubt they’ll be made

[vernal valve]

I couldn't even find people streaming them, much less many videos beyond basic attempts, tbh. I feel like they just have horrifyingly low engagement.

[obsidian venture]

Or folks will splice up their attempts over a clean orderly way like most guides are done

[vernal valve]

I feel like very few people are even attempting it

[meager flame]

tbh

i dont even really think guides are needed

[nocturne solstice]

But then why do the contracts still cost so much

Surely that means people are still sending attempts

[meager flame]

anyone that could conceivably do them can just watch people trying and like

understand

the bar is actually that high

[nocturne solstice]

just not streamers

[obsidian venture]

No

[small anvil]

Worm contact costs more than the reward rn iirc

[obsidian venture]

I’m in different endgame groups

[small anvil]

Catalyst too

[obsidian venture]

No one gives a fuck to try these

[vernal valve]

I mean, I think a lot of people are just expecting them to be changed/nerfed considerably, straight up

[obsidian venture]

They said ok, back to tob or my random grind

Or a different game

[meager flame]

they're also relatively simplistic

they're just insanely punishing

like you dont need to see a guide to know demon man is shooting fast or that the waves get offset in random directions in p3

[vernal valve]

If we get confirmation "hey, we're definitely never changing these, git gud", I expect the Oathplate/Horn contracts to fall through the floor

[meager flame]

the problem is actually staying alive and not trolling yourself over something small

[obsidian venture]

You actually die due to boredom

No cap

[red scroll]

i literally CANT find videos on the non recolor contracts

[chrome lantern]

I definitely heard people saying that in the short bit of stream I watched (before I got bored)

[meager flame]

yeah you have to lock in like its toa and not do anything wrong

[red scroll]

no one is doing them

[vernal valve]

yeah dying to 1 mistake in the 10 minute fight and losing 70m is a bit of a tall ask

[meager flame]

or you suddenly are dead

over the smallest thing

[lament peak]

I want to put them all in deaths coffer but I can't yet 😦

[obsidian venture]

Because they’re pricey

And people are fed up with the radiant ones

Which are much cheaper

So why would you try something that’s probably going to be another ass fight

[red scroll]

if you can actually complete the oathplate one its +50

so im just suprised no one has tried it

[meager flame]

yeah honestly idk who would even do the oathplate and horn ones

maybe someone could talk oda into it since he has enough gp to like

actually not care

[red scroll]

surely theres a stream who can nuke money

to try

[meager flame]

but most people aren't just gonna throw away 70m in 30 seconds repeatedly for a bit

[obsidian venture]

People with over 10b banks do not care to try them

[vernal valve]

the problem is the fights are so punishing that even if you know them it's very easy to make a single mistake and instantly eat a giant loss

[vernal valve]

to be clear, oathplate contract is the same as worm/aether ones, which are like 600-800k

it's entirely possible to "learn" it on cheap contracts

[obsidian venture]

Keep in mind that folks would rather reset maiden a couple thousand times over doing a contract

[vernal valve]

the problem is that for it to be worth it, you have to approach a very high, consistent success rate. and people just do not want to do it

[meager flame]

idk if you even can do that like

in theory you could but

[red scroll]

seems like a failure of a mechanic as a whole then

[meager flame]

most people are just not going to lock in on some really boring stuff and just

never mess up

[obsidian venture]

It’s been a failure months before release

[red scroll]

well thats not true

we didnt know they wre gonna be ass

[vernal valve]

people were already pretty frustrated to get 1 clear for the Oathplate recolor contracts, sending worm contracts until you get an 80%+ success rate to send oathplate contracts is just 🤢

[meager flame]

well

tbh

[chrome lantern]

Wow I just read the wiki description on the acquisition contracts, that really does look like the worst possible experience to ever expose yourself to

[meager flame]

we kind of did know

[obsidian venture]

Contracts? People already knew it was going to be be orbs 2.0

[meager flame]

we knew what we thought of awakeners orbs

[vernal valve]

I would genuinely not be surprised if not a single oathplate acquisition contract has been completed yet tbh

[red scroll]

we knew it would be orbs

[meager flame]

and jagex knew they were doing that 2.0

[red scroll]

but not that they would be so unfun

[meager flame]

they just gaslit us

[red scroll]

cause at least some people think orbs are fun

[meager flame]

by saying they learned and it was different

[obsidian venture]

Nah we knew lmao

They took an ass system and made it more ass

[red scroll]

you knew they would be less fun than orbs

im glad you are all knowing

[obsidian venture]

The way it was explained? Yes

It was a 1:1 system with worse drop rates

[chrome lantern]

I also find it crazy that duoing the acquisition contracts just makes the duo get literally no normal loot roll

[meager flame]

nono i had the requisite knowledge to know if jagex had properly explained it

they just concealed the facts

they knew it was ass the whole time

they were making it

[vernal valve]

gotta work for that 250 worm split 😭

[red scroll]

if they had explained it correctly

sure

[upbeat moss]

i wonder if this ever gets exhausting

[red scroll]

but they didnt

xd

[obsidian venture]

If they explained it correctly it would have been a massive no vote

[meager flame]

yeah then they leaked it

god bless honestly

and we got a blog that made me pretty sure it was ass but i waited

and then it released

[obsidian venture]

Yeah

[meager flame]

and it was what we all thought

[obsidian venture]

And they swore it wasn’t

But we knew it was

[red scroll]

i can unstand knowing it was ass after the leak

but before then

i had hope

but they were untruthful

;c

[sacred oracle]

i didn't realize that contracts were tradable until that jmod mentioned it

[vernal valve]

anyway at this point I'm really curious what they're gonna do next update

[sacred oracle]

which was a long time after the content had already been voted on

[red scroll]

same

[vernal valve]

I'm expecting some pretty major changes

[sacred oracle]

i thought it would just be invocations

[obsidian venture]

Did we know the fights were going to be ass? No? But folks could tell that it was going to be a challenge to make 5 unique fights

[meager flame]

lmao im scared of what they do

they saw what we thought of orbs and did this

[sacred oracle]

if i'd known it was a tradable contract, i would have probably voted against it

[vernal valve]

I genuinely have no idea LMAO

[meager flame]

if thats learning please stop learning jagex

[red scroll]

i thought it was gonna be a menu like invocations

for a while

tbh

[obsidian venture]

Which we also hate

[red scroll]

invocations less hate than orbs

i feel

[chrome lantern]

Varlamore p3 fletching activity requires fletching contracts from farming baby wyrms in moon dungeon /s

[obsidian venture]

Yes but still disliked

[red scroll]

at least i think the invo system can be done well

orbs are just always bad

[obsidian venture]

To the point where they said no more invocations

[meager flame]

i kinda thought it would be like a menu lobby that opened up

and you selected which fight you wanted

[small anvil]

Feel like invos are hated more because of how they scale

[meager flame]

but instead

[red scroll]

invos COULD be done well

[small anvil]

Than because you can choose

[obsidian venture]

Could

[red scroll]

orbs bad 100%

[meager flame]

it was awakners orbs to start my 600 toa experience

which is

hilarious

[chrome lantern]

I don't think invocs are worth trying to do well is the thing

[vernal valve]

invos are just unbelievably hard to do well, yeah

[obsidian venture]

Who knew that adding hp/def means it’s less fun

[red scroll]

if i knew it was orbs and not invos i would have voted no.

[vernal valve]

they require obnoxious amounts of tuning

[chrome lantern]

In the time you made an invoc system that's thorough and works well at all levels

Just make another boss

[meager flame]

well

[small anvil]

Do one fight well rather than a million versions of the fight

[meager flame]

if they want to do stuff like colo better

they need to play roguelikes and actually study it

they totally miss the basics like

things that help you

[chrome lantern]

Throwback to "Colo will have an endless roguelike mode"

[meager flame]

instead of always making the next thing make it all worse

[vernal valve]

yeah colo's fun but it ain't fun in the roguelike way people hoped for

[sacred oracle]

after all this time i still have no idea what a roguelike is

[obsidian venture]

Endless mode?

[slender vapor]

Good thing osrs hasn't had a lower defense through special attacks meta, good thing they know we all hate high def and won't intentionally do it again /s

[sacred oracle]

does the term still really have meaning

[meager flame]

yeah its a genre of games

[vernal valve]

it's extremely broad as a genre but it definitely still means something

[sacred oracle]

i feel i see so many games described as roguelike, but they have nothing in common that i can understand

[obsidian venture]

Even touhou phase in yama would have been better

[meager flame]

typically what they're referring to is the basic idea of upgrading a skill tree or gaining abilities as you progress into the usually short play through

and the next time you play through you might get totally different options

so it keeps being a little bit new or different

jagex's take is that every time you get a choice you decide how you'd like to fuck yourself which

technically fits but

[chrome lantern]

This is from this blog btw https://secure.runescape.com/m=news/a=97/fortis-colosseum---first-look--rewards?oldschool=1

[meager flame]

usually those games have player buffs too

[slender vapor]

Ngl, it felt like awakened Yama should've been phase 3 from the start, with extra mechanics on top instead of what we got

[obsidian venture]

Legit

Keep it 1 phase and make them interesting

[red scroll]

sad the contracts are ass cause i actually like the base fight

[vernal valve]

most ppl like the base fight tbh

[chrome lantern]

I like the base fight but it doesn't feel like super endgame fight it was hyped to be

[vernal valve]

I honestly didn't expect the fights themselves to go as bad as they did

[meager flame]

like you could create a wave based minigame in osrs and lean into the roguelike thing where instead of choosing how your enemies get stronger

[slender vapor]

Like, Yama starting off p3, and adding more mechanics is such a smarter idea than cranking up hp and defense. And adding 1 shot mechanics

[vernal valve]

I thought the fights were gonna be fine, just marred by the contracts

That, uh, didn't happen

[obsidian venture]

I personally find the base fight, minus p3, sorta dull. The pet is cool and I like the agility/meteor attack

[meager flame]

they just have a set of challenges that get increasingly more difficult and you choose how to make yourself stronger

to overcome it

[red scroll]

its way easier than i was expecting at a base level yeh

[meager flame]

for some reason jagex really doesn't seem to look towards buffing the player though

like ever

idk why

they have a weird mentality

[chrome lantern]

Would go hard for sure

[obsidian venture]

And bis is accessible to all

Which is interesting

[vernal valve]

traumatized at the idea of people smuggling buffs out ig 😭

[obsidian venture]

Generally don’t mind that but for contracts you can’t even use them

[red scroll]

while guthix sleeps moment

[obsidian venture]

So like wwd

[chrome lantern]

New video, "I pked this guy by hitting a 125 AGS into 60 gmaul"

[meager flame]

hmmm idk if thats an issue

maybe we discuss

lmao

spec pots should've been disabled like an hour after they were on live worlds

[obsidian venture]

Also the point that people genuinely don’t understand what bis means

[meager flame]

really shouldn't have been in pvp to begin with but yeah

[obsidian venture]

When oath top/bottom is bis for over 85% of melee content, maybe more?

And not a simple sidegrade

And low hours to obtain

[vernal valve]

genuinely wonder if jagex is gonna nerf oathplate rates again tbh

[obsidian venture]

Ruins progression

[vernal valve]

i feel like the community would absolutely lose their minds

[meager flame]

i would feel bad if they do

[obsidian venture]

Moons already put bandos in the bin

[meager flame]

i made my whole set already but like

[obsidian venture]

Now bandos is 6 feet under

[analog crow]

«Come fight me in a pvp world, I’m in the ancient guthixian temple»

[meager flame]

idk what they can even do really

i would've never made the shards tradable

[vernal valve]

yeah if oathplate stays untouched melee gear prices/prog is a bit in the bin

[meager flame]

maybe they can still undo that

[obsidian venture]

The horn is useless

[vernal valve]

yeah there's no option that doesn't feel bad/get immense blowback at this point

i don't envy them tbh

[chrome lantern]

They can fundamentally rework gear stats from the ground up tbh and make bigger differences in str bonuses across the board, aside from weapons, amulets, and gloves

[obsidian venture]

Gg on using at yama? Maybe cox? I guess toa but def is capped so its easy to consistently 0 def already

[chrome lantern]

Maybe a Project Rebalance or something

Oh wait, they barely made any changes

[meager flame]

i feel like their project rebalance stuff honestly sucks

they set aside not enough time to do it right and then just make a collection of somewhat impactful but random changes

[obsidian venture]

Well we have 1-2 months to see another rework

[chrome lantern]

It's ok mage now has a 2% book just behind the 3% ward (unf), can't make any of them any higher though!

[sacred oracle]

I assumed soulflame horn was really useful, just at stuff I don't know anything about since I never do team content

[obsidian venture]

This one for the shadow and slayer iirc?

[meager flame]

like

[vernal valve]

horn's just undertuned unfortunately, yeah. Feel like it's inevitable they double back on the claw thing, and even after that, idk if that's enough

[meager flame]

if they had hit us with one giga project rework where they just actually fixed whatever they went at

it would be great

but they half assed the magic one bad

[obsidian venture]

Instead of a game jam, just fix content mate

Or use that time to do so

[slender vapor]

Waiting for the 4 tick trio to get buffed properly

[meager flame]

also did they lol even say anything about zanaris on friday

[analog crow]

Well it is different since you can kill a couple black demons to get it in like 5 mins. 🙂

[meager flame]

i missed it if they did

or did they actually leak that its shutdown and go silent

[slender vapor]

Yep

[red scroll]

yes

[slender vapor]

Zanaris threads are melting down

[obsidian venture]

That took some good dev time too

[chrome lantern]

A few quick significant issues for rebalancing:
-Not enough room to add significant gear progression, especially on str bonuses (all styles)
-Magic spellbook spells are extremely limited by not scaling in any way, shape, or form
-Imbued heart (saturated basically a free upgrade) is the only meaningful way to boost magic in 99% of situations, and forgotten brews draining melees makes them even more useless than they already were

[vernal valve]

I believe goblin said something about having no knowledge about whatever's going on with the Project Zanaris thing, since it's separate from the OSRS team? But other than that, nothing

[meager flame]

yeah thats crazy

they yeeted the team so fast they couldn't even let us know they were gone

lmao

[chrome lantern]

The first issue I wrote above shows with torso/bcp/blood moon top all being the same, and is highlighted with the oath vs. torva relationship

[meager flame]

although tbf to goblin

[analog crow]

Pz was leaked through the html source or something
We’ll have to assume an announcement is coming at some point

[meager flame]

even if he did know that is not the kind of thing you just tell people

[chrome lantern]

Goblin is a good goblin

[slender vapor]

Yeah, that's not shit you leak

He's already kinda recovering from the Yama leak

[analog crow]

Yama leak?

[chrome lantern]

Contracts I assume

[vernal valve]

yeah here it is
#game-update message

regarding the zanaris thing, not the Yama leak, lol

[analog crow]

I mean

Contracts were a shitshow because the team was trying to be both transparent and overly sensitive and turned on a dime whenever there was community outcry during development

So of course there were like bugged contracts when they came out

They had probably been changed since the last playtest or whatever

[chrome lantern]

Contracts were hidden from the public until they couldn’t anymore and nothing could stop them coming in half-baked

[analog crow]

And even when they were bugged on release jmods worked until 2am local time on Friday to fix them

[chrome lantern]

A valiant effort to support the 100 people who ever attempted those contracts

[analog crow]

Despite being made for the 100 people who can realistically complete them yeah

[slender vapor]

100 is being generous

[meager flame]

I just wonder how they feel about it

[slender vapor]

According to goblin. "Deflating"

[analog crow]

We will see in a week where the GE volumes balance out to get an idea of how many people are doing contracts

[meager flame]

Like i know if I could just fight Yama and get killed trying to do the contract fights

[hasty shard]

im not sure why people complain about the aether runes honestly, if you're able to get radiant you can do 15 catalyst contracts 😭

[meager flame]

I totally would have

[hasty shard]

like that is not terrible to grind out
ideally it shouldn't make you but like

[meager flame]

But I am not engaging with that contract system the way it was

[hasty shard]

its not forcing you to do 500 solos bad

ignoring that it is forcing you to do 500 solos to get the catalyst contract

[slender vapor]

I do wonder what the contracts used actually is

I have a feeling watching the race for first put a lot of people off

[red scroll]

i bet under 20 oathplate contracts have been completed

[analog crow]

Watching streamers crash out and flame the system is of course bad pr

[hasty shard]

i want to tag on forgotten brews not having a divine variant is a bit of salt in the wound

like if that was a non-factor, people would not be using divines lol

[slender vapor]

The mage pots are trash

They suck

And why are the nex pot upgraded by muspah

That's backwards

[hasty shard]

the most i get out of them is the extra +22 prayer from whisp supply drop

[analog crow]

muspah also drops ancient brews fwiw

[hasty shard]

summer sweepup cant come sooner man 😭

you can also pull ancient brews from mixology

but eh

[slender vapor]

Gross

[meager flame]

i think what jagex does next and by next i mean for stuff we haven't already heard about

will hopefully be just going back to basics for everything lol

[analog crow]

But forgotten brews are fine for ranged/mage hybrid fights innit

[meager flame]

they're kinda playing themselves with always trying to make a new system

because its not working out a lot more than it is working out

[analog crow]

I mean coming up is delve, vp3 and vampyre finale

I'm sure they will cook

[meager flame]

they've got a lot of examples of what does work

so maybe instead of reinventing the wheel and experimenting with everything

they just do what works

[analog crow]

They probably don't want to just put another Levi in the game when Levi already exists

[meager flame]

tbh im kinda sad that their bad luck protection got destroyed by trying to prop up a mining activity though

they might think bad luck protection doesn't work instead of realizing they made it not work lol

[analog crow]

you mean how oathplate shards are tradable?

[meager flame]

yeah

they might learn the wrong lesson from that

[hasty shard]

they couldve just slapped on dupe protection and called it a day i feel

[analog crow]

That was to avoid players feeling "locked into" Yama once they drop once iirc

But yeah the moons dry protection is perfect imo, just do that

[meager flame]

im pretty sure thats just the gymnast in them saying that

they were just trying to make shale mining a reality

[slender vapor]

Dt2 bosses

[hasty shard]

dt2 yeah

[slender vapor]

[hasty shard]

[slender vapor]

Shale could've made money

Untradeable shards still means people buy shale

[analog crow]

[meager flame]

yeah but

the demand for shale would be incredibly small

because it would only be people who actually sat there long enough to get 450 shards

and they honestly

might not even buy shale

[lament peak]

You need to do like 1k+ duo yamas to craft 1 piece lmao

[meager flame]

it takes like an hour to get enough

i think i crafted my helm on my iron at like 750 kc

duos and solos were involved

[analog crow]

Shale on release was a 4m/hr mining moneymaker, it's still like 2m/hr if you 3t it, which is not bad at all

[hasty shard]

i think shards being untradeable is fine if infernal plate/nuggets are

cause then you have way more people trying to buy shale to offload their gp

[meager flame]

yeah but it'll just keep collapsing

the fact is we can mine shale way too fast

[lament peak]

😭

[meager flame]

so as soon as there aren't about a billion people farming yama

there wont be oathplate shards to keep shale afloat

[analog crow]

since May 22 it's been stable. We will see

[hasty shard]

i should probably go back to yama i think contracts burnt me

[meager flame]

especially once people really learn

[hasty shard]

just currently i dont see why a main would literally ever interact with shards except for dumping them on the ge

[meager flame]

like i dont think people are clued in to the fact that enough shale for an oathplate piece is actually like 1 hour of gameplay

the only thing protecting it is the lack of people mining

[hasty shard]

i think if i wanted gp from mining i would just go do like amethyst or rune because its not a pita

or well

[analog crow]

Because base yama was a skill floor low enough that midgame players can get kc, I don't think it will die immediately

[hasty shard]

zalcano

zalcano is so fucking good now 😭

i'll rant about the chiselling again because i want to but mann is doing that just complete ass to anyone else?

like every time we need to convert an inventory of something i swear it always has to be 'oh but you can spam click it to go faster!'

its the main thing that turns me off of doing stuff like ehp duke prep / zeah rc / aerial fishing

[slender vapor]

Muh skill expression

[hasty shard]

cause the skill expression is just coal miner hands rsi

and tends to be thrown onto shit that can otherwise be way more chill in reality

or if its something like aerial fishing isnt even useful when you can spam drop items instead

[slender vapor]

Don't forget everyone's favorite almost tick manip skilling method, mixology

[hasty shard]

also schizo tangent why does fast skilling have to mean you don't actually gather supplies

[slender vapor]

Where you do more clicking than most pvm

[hasty shard]

oh right having to spam click the fucking paste maker 😭

whyyyy

[winged mantle]

Wait did this channel get purged?

[hasty shard]

uhh if you cant scroll after a bit thats a discord bug

discord moment

[winged mantle]

Ah

[hasty shard]

happened a while ago so i assume it happened again just now

[fossil epoch]

It feels weird, im 60 yama kills in after the update, and ive had 0 oathplate shards.
Surely just unlucky going a bit over 3x rate, its just fun it happened after the update

[winged mantle]

I do kinda wish you could breakdown dupe oathplate into 150 shards

[slender vapor]

Dupe helmets

[winged mantle]

Irons will just sell the dupes adding more into the game

Dupe oathplate armour pieces

[lament peak]

In 60 kills I had two shard drops earlier today. I wouldn't be surprised if rates were nerfed again

[analog crow]

Oathplate is trending up again now
Do with that info what you will

[lament peak]

My duo is nearly 300 kills dry a piece or horn now

[winged mantle]

Gnomonkey said it should be nerfed so I wouldn't be surprised if it is further

Just for how good the set is

Nex 2.0 + awakeners orbs 2.0

How good

Everyones favourites

[hasty shard]

you get 50 now and you'll like it!!1

[winged mantle]

Na I'll most likely sell the dupe for split money

[hasty shard]

i do hope you know you can break down into 50 rn though unless you mean you think it should be more

which it should tbh

[winged mantle]

It should be increased from 50 > 150

[hasty shard]

[sacred oracle]

i wonder if anyone has completed an oathplate contract yet, i can't find any videos

i'm curious if they work how i assume

[hasty shard]

who tf wants to risk the 70m

when some contracts were already impossible

[analog crow]

Dunno if people have figured out p3 for those yet

But I understand you can practice with the worms contract?

[hasty shard]

im pretty sure catalyst contract is cheaper rn is the thing

too much literal brainworming has made worms more expensive lol

[sacred oracle]

oh, it's the exact fight as worms?

are all the acquisition contracts the same? that would be weird

[analog crow]

catalyst (harmony?) was 6m last I checked

[hasty shard]

yeah, the unique ones force solo iirc

harmony is radiant

https://prices.runescape.wiki/osrs/item/30831 https://prices.runescape.wiki/osrs/item/30834

[sacred oracle]

okay, i looked at the wiki description for both side-by-side, and all the modifiers look exactly the same

[hasty shard]

considering it says 4 orb spawns though i think its forced duoing

which considering the other person doesnt actually get the item

😭

[slender vapor]

How to make everyone miserable

[fossil epoch]

Thats atleast quite nice to know!

[slender vapor]

[sacred oracle]

i don't understand why the contract for 250 worms and the contract for an oathplate piece would be the same fight

(except one you can duo)

[hasty shard]

the pet one is different

idk why oathplate/shard acquisition arent the pet one

[hard axle]

we take torva, we break it down into torva metal, then we combine torva metal with oathplate so it doesn't look so ugly + have 7 more str bonus

now oathplate can be as common as it wants

and torva won't be such an issue because its just a upgrade material + u fix the torva dupe problem for irons

this is the shit that should be the default for armors/weapons in 2025.

[slender vapor]

Upgradescape

Can't wait to break down my tbow and 6k blowpipes to make the next range mega

[wispy current]

Why did oathplate shoot up

[slender vapor]

People stopped power farming Yama

The first 2 weeks it was grinded to hell and back, now people are taking a break

[winged mantle]

The problem is how drops work for nex

1/43 x players in the room. You can go 1500 trios easy with only getting 1 torva piece on an iron

[slender vapor]

Torva shards

[winged mantle]

I would love for nihil horn + torva drops to be able to be broken down. Heck even if nihil shards could be used to craft torva plate components

[hasty shard]

ok i think torva shards is stupid because its just a guys name

let me collect david shards

david shards to make john crossbow

[sacred oracle]

i prefer not being able to break down items

[hasty shard]

that too

[sacred oracle]

it makes them not feel special; they're just interchangeable pieces now

[hasty shard]

i think somethings gone wrong if we have to dismantle raid items to make something new

[sacred oracle]

like, breaking them down for upgrades is fine, though i think we go a little far with that

[hasty shard]

masori is eh, it very fucking obviously doesnt work for eli ward

if we are having to dismantle ancestral ??????

[sacred oracle]

but breaking them down into pieces that you can use to assemble other stuff of the same kind, i don't like that

[winged mantle]

Like... You're telling me this is a good system for bis melee gear

[sacred oracle]

yes

for mains

[hasty shard]

the solution is to duo clearly

[sacred oracle]

for irons, it's just part of the challenge of having to get all the stuff yourself

i'm not in favor of changing the way the drops work for everyone to suit a single game mode, especially when the point of it is to circumvent the entire reason the game mode exists

[winged mantle]

If you could actually play around nexes mechanics it would be fine

Aka why does she mage you when you are in melee distance

As a team

[analog crow]

Nex should get a drop system patch

Give it the dupe protection at least

Nightmare/pnm too

[compact flicker]

Only drop system that needs patching is imbued heart

But there are pots, so meh but I cant be bothered making those

[hard axle]

that’s the way the cookie crumbles

Get to slavery

[hasty shard]

But there are pots that are so meh that I cant be bothered making those

they need to use mod rice's game jam for better heart rates imo

add it as a secondary to the new slayer mobs

are you telling me these mfs shouldnt have imbued heart as a secondary drop

[shadow wave]

Bloodmoon looking at people trying to lynch Oathplate armour for devaluing Bandos gear:

[slender vapor]

If anything torva was grossly overvalued in the first place and artificially holding up bandos by being linked to it

[fossil epoch]

Torvas value come from how horrible a boss it is, so only bots and a few players wants to grind it

also BIS gets a price stick on it, but it was waaay to expensive a set for the upgrade it was to bandos

[shadow wave]

I've gotta be honest, if Jagex are never gonna go back and revise how long grinds take then they should continue to release content that invalidates older grinds

[meager flame]

I think if I were jagex

[shadow wave]

HLC constantly complain about people never wanting to get into the space but as soon as anything touches the 1000s of hour wall it takes to get the gear then suddenly it's the death of OSRS

[meager flame]

I would probably go change torva and nightmare rates

Like this summer

[plush gull]

why would anyone use oathplate instead of void+sara sword

also why did people make up a new fake acronym?

[meager flame]

I don't really think the overall speed of completing oathplate is a problem

[fossil epoch]

Yeh not sure they want more people in there

[meager flame]

Over 70 hours is like 3 complete games in normal scenarios

[shadow wave]

I mean if more people can get into HLC because they have sufficent gear then Jagex will make more HLC content

[meager flame]

The real problem is that it's being compared to bs rates like nex

[hasty shard]

orb rates are a fucking meme at nightmare but tbh armour rate isnt too bad for a main i want to say

[plush gull]

what are you talking about??

[hasty shard]

getting pet before an orb most of the time lol

[plush gull]

what do you think HLC means

[fossil epoch]

High level community

[shadow wave]

But yes, I think Nex is the problem, not Oathplate

[fossil epoch]

its a very old acronym at this point

[meager flame]

Idk I think jagex in general needs to come to Jesus over drop rates

[slender vapor]

Hateful livid Cantankerous

[meager flame]

They let it go far enough but they can't keep pushing those numbers

Too far most likely already

Like

[slender vapor]

Cox rates and item list were a mistake

[meager flame]

Its a very modern osrs problem to be like yeah this is gonna take me hundreds of hours

[fossil epoch]

I agree with a lot of stuff in the gnomonkey video, but when he said that a lot of people like nex, even he had to backtrack a little lol

[meager flame]

Thats not how actual rs worked usually almost ever

[fossil epoch]

And it seems like he wanted nightmare like rates for oathplate, thats uhm no thanks

[plush gull]

just release harder content without entry costs

like colo/inferno, even 2 hour old hcim can have fun with those bosses

[meager flame]

They didn't start that shit with rates until corp

Before that it was like

Bandos or kq rates

[hasty shard]

what kq rates the boss drops fuck all

[slender vapor]

I kinda agree with saebae on this. Where they eventually gotta knock a few hundred hours off the older grinds if they ever expect people to keep going

[meager flame]

It used to drop bis

[shadow wave]

Also Bandos is like 20 hours to complete these days, not "almost the same as Yama"

[slender vapor]

At some point osrs will just have a 10k hours of pvm grind, and we'll still be expecting people to do thousands on just t bow alone

[meager flame]

They just have to get real and realize they maxed out rates

And now since they can't go beyond that they have to fix it

[hasty shard]

you can only fill in niches with the current power level of gear for so long

[meager flame]

Otherwise this happens

[hasty shard]

like how did we unironically get to the point of 'crush tank demonbane'

[meager flame]

Where oathplate v torva rates happens

[shadow wave]

Like, even as a main, I'd prefer to get gear by making some small money whilst chasing big drops from bosses that drop the gear I want

rather than doing 1000 hours at Nex cos that's the best GP/HR before I have any fun

[meager flame]

I get why its attractive to them

[shadow wave]

I want to get Oathplate whilst killing Yama, not do 50 hours of Nex get Oathplate, then settle into the 200 hour or whatever Yama grind

[meager flame]

If you can get a bunch of idiots to sit there and do one thing for 400 hours straight

That gives you so much more time to make your next update

[shadow wave]

That's not a better system

[meager flame]

And they pay for longer

They're extending play time on purpose

But they went as far as they can take it

[hasty shard]

i wish nightmare was more appealing

im kinda w/e on changes to phosanis but MAN change the base fight holy fuck

a) fucking sucks
b) chip
c) bot content

[meager flame]

Nightmare is a prime example of content extension

Both versions have filler to make the fight take longer than it should

And horrible rates on top

[hasty shard]

like personal list of base nightmare changes

• Add guaranteed maxes to husks/parasite like phosanis
• Lock it behind SOTF
• Remove chip

[plush gull]

whats the useless new powered staff called? eye of ayak?

[shadow wave]

Like I want to get Nally, and because Araxxor is actually a decently fun boss with a reasonable drop rate I'm just gonna get it via task rather than dropping Araxxor, doing like Vork for 10 hours, then coming back to Araxxor

It's slower for sure but Araxxor's reasonable drop rates don't make it unreasonable

[hasty shard]

im not against nightmare kill time as it keeps me actually fighting the boss for longer but its not like i'd vote against removing a phase

[slender vapor]

Or just have reasonable rates on shit

[meager flame]

Generally fighting for longer doesn't really improve anything

[slender vapor]

And make the armor actually good somewhere other than nightmare

[hasty shard]

ok honestly you want nally to grind araxxor with cause it makes araxytes so much easier

[meager flame]

They just have you doing filler phases

And lol hilariously enough

Usually when something takes longer to kill the rates are improved so time to completion is reasonable

[shadow wave]

Eh, probably gonna lose like an hour to the 1 tick or so lost on average over the course of the grind

[hasty shard]

im not even talking about the ticks lol

its just so much nicer to not need the range switch

[plush gull]

oh i was right

83 magic??? bruh why are they making requirements so high

[shadow wave]

I mean I just do two way SHC/Anguish + Rigour

[hasty shard]

do eet

[shadow wave]

But either way, once I get Nally I'm not going back to Araxxor until like pet grind (got lucky getting Rancour like 100kc in), and my PvE skill has improved in my time spent doing araxxor - so the grind itself has been worth more to me than the absolute GP value, and that's only because drop rates feel so fair

If Nally was like Saeldor time to get I'd never be doing Araxxor, never learning the skills I learn from it, and instead be putting off doing some other content because it seems "too hard". That's the value of a reasonable drop rate with gear that invalidates older gear imo

[meager flame]

Better idea would be to just have reasonable rates to begin with

Then you dont have to delete older content in the process of making something faster and easier to fill the gap your game design was lacking

Because the rates were ass

[slender vapor]

Cox rates are something saebae throws under the bus any opportunity he gets.

At some point something is gonna have to compete with tbow for range mega rare territory. It'll be oathplate v torva again but worse

Unless the new weapon is a 1k hour grind, people are going to lose their fucking mind

And now we have 2 1k hour mega rare range weapons

And what about new mage gear too?

Will the mage armor to eventually surpass ancestral require green logging something as long as cox too?

[shadow wave]

I mean we see it with Virtus

[slender vapor]

The grind creep on gear has become outrageous

[shadow wave]

Virtus would have competed in a decent number of places so it has to have absolutely dogshit drop rates

[slender vapor]

Virtus has such dog shit drop rates you either spoon it going for ultor or it's a post raids grind on irons

[hasty shard]

it'll be some stupid ballista megarare that gets backpedalled into an unnerfed bp item

[slender vapor]

[hasty shard]

guaranteed

[slender vapor]

Virtus is so unreasonable to grind you're better off sinking the time into cox instead

God forbid we ever see crush armor that can be done faster than inquistor too

[hasty shard]

mfw

[left atlas]

Least it ain't 5 helms no bottoms

[winged mantle]

Virtus mask - "am I a joke to you"

[hasty shard]

well yeah but

😭

https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/1kv06yt/in_p3_acquisition_contracts_yama_gives_you_10/

lol

250 worms

[winged mantle]

What were they thinking

Like mad props to all the great things they smashed about yama