pvp-discussion

[fringe fjord]

Used for rag wars by clans lol

[scarlet tree]

Personally did think wrathma was a bad idea, wasn’t hella polished for its consumers but not far off either

[fringe fjord]

The 54 teleport area

Or w/e

[thorn tapir]

thats the isssue with jagex and wilderness. instead of going back and polish the idea they basically abondon it completley

[scarlet tree]

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a rag war held there, near yah but not the actual lava/vulcano

[scarlet tree]

Yah, sad :/

[next sequoia]

Yes. When it comes to pvp updates, what we get is what we get. You have a very small window of a week, 2 at the most for them to add any bug fixes or small changes but as soon as they move their focus to other content, it's over. You're stuck with whatever the finished product is.

Look at pvp arena. Lmao

[thorn tapir]

wasnt the whole point of mod manked joining jagex to fix wilderness/pvp? lol

[next sequoia]

If by some miracle a pvp update or a wilderness update passes, you need to do your best to give feedback and have them add changes. Otherwise it's done and you're stuck with whatever u got

[glacial gate]

pvp updates are center by for and around streamers point blank period.
Johnny pvm's reddit posts also shape it infinitely more than any of our posts or thoughts here sadly.

[next sequoia]

No. That was a misconception

If it wasn't for streamers, no question we wouldn't have pvp in osrs. lol

Streamers are the last thing making pvp hang on by a thread

[glacial gate]

funny how its the best content there is.

yet its shown the absolute least love

[fringe fjord]

Pvp isn't fun for most participants in the wilderness

Nothing makes fighting back fun or worth it for average players

[glacial gate]

sure w/e lol

[fringe fjord]

Pvp vs pvper is good content

Fighting pvmers is terrible content

[next sequoia]

Disagree

[thorn tapir]

now singles + being a thing, pvmers have a legit 100000 X easier escaping than before

[fringe fjord]

Yes so how would you convince them to make revs multi again

Not gonna happen

You'd have to convince them to die easier

[next sequoia]

It certainly won't pass with the proposal/layout manked gave. Not throwing any shade or anything, I even dm'd him and gave him an idea on improving it. You can't just poll multi revs with Zero incentives, less escape methods than the original caves, and a different cave layout and expect it to pass

[fringe fjord]

He was smoking some heavy shit with those ideas

[next sequoia]

Nah it wasn't terrible. I'm not going to completely trash talk his idea

It just needs adjustments.

It all comes from good intent and I respect it

[glacial gate]

I liked the concept but not necessarily the execution. Multi revs should have an even higher incentive than singles though by a considderable degree.

And the entire cave needs to be one or the other or people will abuse the single to multi line

[fringe fjord]

Tbh the best incentive to do wilderness content is to threaten to make it worse

[next sequoia]

Thing is, you need to do wilderness pvm updates the right way, especially these days. If you don't consider the survival of the pvmer and giving them a fighting chance at tanking/escaping teams, updates will never pass

[thorn tapir]

I see where you're coming from, but let me explain how RuneScape PvP works. If PvPers only wanted to fight other good PvPers, they would go to the PvP Arena or join Discords where they can match up against each other. There are already ways to arrange fair fights.

RuneScape isn’t primarily a PvP game .PvP is just one part of it. It’s not like games such as League of Legends or Call of Duty where the entire game is built around competitive PvP with rankings and strong rewards.

In RuneScape, PvP works more like a food chain. PvMers go into the Wilderness to do PvM content → weaker PvPers try to kill those PvMers → stronger PvPers hunt those weaker PvPers, and so on.

If there’s no PvM activity in the Wilderness, the weaker PvPers won’t go there, and if they’re not there, the better PvPers won’t show up either.

Do you see what I mean?

[fringe fjord]

Tell pvmers it's gonna be multi next week so they all rush to the cave to do it beforehand

Genius

[glacial gate]

1t'ing the door at bear or spider because you have a scout outside aint great for anyone either.

[next sequoia]

Correct

[fringe fjord]

No i don't see how you're going to convince people to vote against their interest, they don't want to be part of that foodchain lol

[glacial gate]

then they can just not go to the content big dog

[fringe fjord]

I know how it works

[glacial gate]

i doubt that

[thorn tapir]

okay do you actually have the trust that jagex can make osrs pvp like leagues? i think we all can say NO. so other option is to just delete pvp because you dont like it

lolo

[fringe fjord]

Knowing how it works doesn't mean you respect or like it

[next sequoia]

I told manked, it doesn't even need to be monetary incentives (although thats always good), you can provide escaping/survival incentives for the pvmers that u can't get in singles revs. They can make the caves very interesting with some brainstorming of ideas

Like I'll give a small one. They have fluid stepping stone shortcuts at Yama that is somewhat skill-based. Why not add a shortcut like that inside the multi revs caves as an escape method

[thorn tapir]

can someone explain me when it comes to pvp update, lots of people have this feeling they are forced to do wildenress content

i am not a pvper (max iron grandmaster btw)

[next sequoia]

Nobody is forced. If it were up to me I'd remove all wilderness clue scroll steps too.

[glacial gate]

everyone wants to complain about the new things is basically where its at bro. Happens with every update regardless of the content.

Just like ironmen who feel they are forced to get voidwaker. You're really only forced to get a voidwaker if you want to voidwaker things.

[thorn tapir]

i never seen it the otherway? avernic treads from DOOM is bis for pvp too. i never ssee pvpers comp[laining bout doing doom

[thorn tapir]

amen

[glacial gate]

Im a pvper and i think doom is great content.

[fringe fjord]

They don't want to create an incentive to go there and the current one is weak

[thorn tapir]

i know lots of pvpers that dont pvm at all. but they need pvm gear to do ANY pvp activity, i dont see them complaining as much as pvmers do tbh.

i guess its just a mentality thing

[next sequoia]

Unpopular opinion. I think jagex should poll removal of all wilderness clue scroll steps

[thorn tapir]

items like barroww gloves, infernal cape, quiver, void are all locked behind quests/end game pvm and minigames. just imagine for 1 second if some BIS pvm items are locked behind PVP

i really dont understand it bud.

[naive ore]

pvpers mostly are not doing collection log or playing ironman, so they can just buy items from ge. I really dont agree with even ironman feeling like they must do the content in wilderness. Like voidwaker is nice but it is not must have unless you are trying to get collection logs, if you are going for collection logs you are doing way more crazy stuff than dealing with pkers

[thorn tapir]

I get what you're saying, but I think the mentality that every update has to be applicable to you is a bit crazy. Some updates will suit you and you’ll enjoy them, but others might be too difficult for you or simply not something you like and that’s fine. we have to cater to all kind of players

[naive ore]

If their goal is to bring more pvmers to wilderness they do still have to at least somewhat take the pvmers into account when designing content in wilderness

[thorn tapir]

I think the key is giving PvMers a real incentive to do Wilderness content or making the GP/hour worthwhile enough that regular mains actually want to participate.

best wilderness money making is killing venenatis which is 5.6m/hr according to wiki. meanwhile we have cutting marlins (90+ cooking req) is around 7m/hr

why would any regular main, besides collection logger do wildy content

[naive ore]

is it actually that high or is the ge price false

[thorn tapir]

https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Money_making_guide/Cutting_raw_marlin

[fringe fjord]

It's not those rates are very outdated

[thorn tapir]

okay my point still stands 🙂 there are 22 money making methods that are better than the best wilderness money making/hr

[naive ore]

it is like 20% lower but still about same as venenatis, assuming you have the best facility on boat and 99 cooking

[fringe fjord]

Nothing in the wilderness is better than zulrah at it's current rates

[thorn tapir]

ye thats the problem tho. if jagex is always telling us, the wilderness is all about high risk high reward...which high rewards are they talking bout

[naive ore]

82 sailing and 99 cooking requirement to deal with limited supply item, so 5-6m gp/h does sound about right

[thorn tapir]

ye if i was a normal main account who need money, i probably going to cut marlins and watch a movie than enter the wilderness and do multi venenatis haha

[naive ore]

the down downside about cutting marlin is that you need 70m+ starting cash for each hour and have to buy marlins for few days in advance to do multiple hours

[next sequoia]

Crazy how medium wilderness diary completely stopped the rogues chest bots, huh? Wonder how strong a wilderness elite diary requirement would do for deterring bots

[glacial gate]

I do not.

[next sequoia]

Once in a lifetime pk right there. Chances of finding that is crazy

For a clue scroller.

[thorn tapir]

goddamn thats a juicy one

dont tell me it was an ironman

[glacial gate]

nah was a main account lol he was east of 19's and i even splashed the first tb. talked to him and offered some back he said nah thats the game and we parted ways

threw my boy the oathplate helm who showed up and smacked him once. gotta support the homies

[inland marlin]

I have given up on trying to pk in revs, instead i am now farming the revs on my pure

with a gmaul+colo blade for anti

3 trips without any interaction at all...

maybe i should learn a lil spanish ya know

[thorn tapir]

did u find him skulled or did he skull up on you

[glacial gate]

unskulled believe it or not

[thorn tapir]

whatt

[glacial gate]

i couldnt believe it lmao

[winged thorn]

https://tenor.com/view/bonds-airship-assault-workfrank-roblox-gif-14342780775675594056

[astral coral]

f is this

[slate spindle]

whats the best guide to learn pking

[astral coral]

lms is good starting point

[slate spindle]

ive done a few i rlly jusy need to learn very very basics

[glacial gate]

i really dislike lms myself. cant help it. You get hit so much more often than when playing mains lol.

[inner dew]

what u know so far

u could practice switching to staff after every bolt

so that mage is a two way switch with robes, and range is 1 way switch to cbow

setup f keys

switching late to 1 tick attack thru their prayer

make sure robes arent on while not casting spells

food/potion mechanics good to understand

greg2007 and rhys both have guides that cover a few subjects for LMS

on yt

momentum is a important concept to understand

[wide crater]

these are all really good tips and things to practice^ make them habits, even now i still struggle with some basics lol. ill camp robes till i catch a freeze sometimes and get railed

[inner dew]

yea i think a big list of them would help even if its vague just so ppl know what to ask

ive just been mentally noting stuff as i watch top players lol

[next sequoia]

https://gyazo.com/eb6e1188a8697501a622d86c2fd3cf7e

Vet'ion is so dead, I killed this guy for 2.6M, this is 14 solo vetion kills worth of loot.

There are no pkers out here.

It also takes a long time to find any pvmers. Nobody is out here.

[cloud hatch]

Depends on time zone. Aus prime time is pretty dead, things feel a lot more busy on na servers during prime time

[inland marlin]

Damn

[brazen fox]

Watch this
Stop watching at 3 minutes or you’ll add too much to your plate
Watch it again
Try some lms
Watch it again
(It basically says what bloodmasked said)

F wrong vid

Sec

Oki got the right vid now LOL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6G3QwBRpMso

Download “attacktimer” plugin and wait til it says 1 before u switch gear and attack

Ez 1ticking

[granite sphinx]

I used to be doing like 30-40 kill trips on my pure back in the 2k worlds when I was grinding for pet it was great

[jade ledge]

Damn resorting to killing bots, rip wildy

[fast cradle]

ooof.

gm

throwback to spider afk spots in singles and south + west lures @granite sphinx

dead as f in 2k worlds

imo... the wilderness bosses and how they've been changed is sad

[inland marlin]

bro bring back black knight castle / west drags NHing from the good old days

everyone out there on their trash gear pures just having a blast

i mahatma i videos blasting in the background

[fast cradle]

west drags pre-eoc in pvp worldss

with my wolper on my pure

goodtimess

go kill frost drags all day with yak+cannon

then go pk

good times

[inland marlin]

yea im reminiscing the early 2000s era, pre summ/dungeoneering

god how bad everyone was back then, i long for simpler times lol

<- old man i guess

[fast cradle]

2007 .. i was a near maxed initiate pure

06 .... 60att pure

[inland marlin]

training combats at the experiments near fenkenstrains castle cus they had more hp than rock crabs

felt so smart at the time lol

[fast cradle]

yep

[jade ledge]

Kinda missing when we had RS in other languages, hopping with your team/clan to real other worlds lol

[fast cradle]

couldn't afk them

[inland marlin]

12 year old me didnt mind sitting there clicking ugly npcs for hours to get that 90 str

[fast cradle]

waterbirth island 3 crab spawn rocking dlong like a boss

afking

caged ogres for 99range

killing blue drags for money in the ogre dungeon south CW

killing zammy mages for dboots back when they were 1.5m ea

when GWD came out

sometimes you'd get 3 boots a trip in 2hour

my idol became my friend @inland marlin

Hiei the pk

[inland marlin]

lol thats sick

[fast cradle]

yep from watching his videos to standing there 98cb in summer of 07 nearly maxed 20def

pretty much pk'd a whip every 3-4 days id say

edge pking on 5,9,18, 21

then wildy removal happened dec 12th IRR.

was hyped to pk over that christmas break and then boom gone rip

oh 10th wasn't far off just looked it up

[granite sphinx]

oh i never did those, i just mean i did multi vetion etc in his lair in 2k worlds cuz they were dead

[fast cradle]

ah

[inland marlin]

dont think theres a lot of pures with 2k total so thats pretty sweet

[fast cradle]

theres plenty tbh @inland marlin I had 2k back in 2018

[inland marlin]

yea im just saying most pures are pvp focused builds, of course theres outliers but i'd wager a huge proportion of 1 defense accounts are purpose built pvp characters

[fast cradle]

suppose yea

[inland marlin]

wild being dead gives me time to focus on grinding my stats i guess. currently training str at the crab for 82k per hour. currently 60/91/1 with 63 pray (titans prayers acquired) and 95 mage/range

might as well max in hopes one day wilderness is saved 😄

[granite sphinx]

now Roq leaving jagex too, its really joever for pvp 🙁

[glacial gate]

https://tenor.com/bbAHQ.gif

[granite sphinx]

the guy who made lms into an actual game not prayer flicking simulator with a starter staff lol

on his lunch break

[cinder lagoon]

Well everyone, after a week of getting rid of my fear of pking

I went in the wilderness and reminded these fools where they were

#69 keys

12m so far

and i died many times with my 300k risk lol i think total profit is around 7m

but i learned alot and now am no longer clueless 😄

[winged thorn]

The pick me up we needed this morning

[fast cradle]

roq leaving tho @winged thorn ripper

[winged thorn]

Hopefully off to design content that will be enjoyed

[halcyon kraken]

And probably had fun while doing it, gz king

[wide crater]

Hell yeah gratz beast

But did you have fun

[cinder lagoon]

yeah it was super fun

gets the adrenaline pumping lol

[minor aspen]

Nice bro keep it up 😎

[inland marlin]

what setup u rockin there brother? hell yea

[cinder lagoon]

Mystic black dhide with ags for spec!

Ancient staff, rcb with dragon stone bolts

Zammy book uhhh that’s top my head haha

[inland marlin]

No TBs? Nice man

[cinder lagoon]

Ah yeah entangle, tb fire wave. I went standard

Ancients they kept getting away lol

I would send screenies but I don’t have permissions

[quasi parcel]

only dying like 20 times isnt even that bad if you are new

[fast frost]

anyone wanna pk at ven ?

[low mesa]

Bofa so nasty in the rev caves but boy if you die I’m sure it hurts

[brazen fox]

pvpcord I come bearing good news

My fixes for attacktimer have been merged

U can now cast spells in PvP and it uses magic attack speed instead of staff bash attack speed

U may once again proceed to 1tick mage the lazy way

[glacial gate]

huh?

[brazen fox]

Attack timer plugin gives u number countdown til u can attack

It’s goated esp when learning

But for longest time when u barraged it just used staff melee speed which sucked

Now it’s fixed

[granite sphinx]

im lost

what are ya talkin about lol

[glacial gate]

a plugin apparentaly

[granite sphinx]

ahh ok lol

i was gonna say im clueless lol

[jade ledge]

Glad they also fixed the animation/small delay difference between casting from spellbook and selecting spell from staff interface

Been a while though

[tropic root]

Yea this is one of the biggest problems with PvP - it requires rapid iteration and changes sometimes to get it right

Imagine if they released raids, or sailing, and just did not change anything about them afterwards, no bugfixes, no feedback based rebalancing, etc

But Jagex has to put everything through polling and a level of quality assurance so they don't run a poll that gets all no voted thus wasting another week, and they surely won't make anything that's not really going to be liked by a majority of the community

And even within pvp itself, a lot of pvpers don't have a 70% concensus on many things.

The lack of jagex actually sticking to polish it is hugely damaging, and the community's inability to agree on anything prevents Jagex from digging in

[tropic root]

I love that idea

I mean, the whole concept of chase/escape gameplay I think needs to be looked at as a whole in the wilderness because the gameplay being "I need to get out of combat for 10 seconds to log out" is goofy

However, in an "encounter" between hunter and escaper, both are participants in the PvP encounter.

So if we vote to change the gameplay away from logging out being the meta, hunters will love that, but runners will hate that, you can't get better than a 50/50 for the 70% polls.

On the other hand if we vote to give runners more survivability in food or defence, the runners will love that but the hunters will hate that, again a 50/50.

Because PvP game balance is inherently one against another, there can be no concensus, so everyone is afraid of change

Normally in PvP multiplayer, the developer has to have the bigger picture that accommodates both sides of the hunter and runner, and normally in pvp games polling isn't a thing, because each side on its own only votes in favor of itself.

I've read some of Manked's posts in the pvp discord and I see that he understands that fairly well.

So the problem is either because the community or the polling system or both.

Developing for Deadman Mode must be nicer because as I understand it, the devs aren't really needing to poll everything about how they develop that game mode, or do they? I don't know.

Arrrg I could ramble about this for hours.

[brazen fox]

It does this

[next sequoia]

Did you have a fun time?

Nvm saw what you said.. Hell yeah man. Wish people would stop over thinking and just jump in and try out pking. They're so worried about dying, when dying is all a part of the process and to be expected. You turned a big profit, so that's awesome

[next sequoia]

I could ramble on it for hours too. The point we are currently at right now is that the community does not want "loot pinata" updates anymore.
In order for something like multi revs to pass a poll, you need to heavily cater to the survivability of "the runner". The hunters are strong enough already, the runners aren't. If you can design an update around giving the runners survivability options (such as escape shortcuts like the yama one I mentioned), that's a good start. Not just that yama shortcut, I came up with another that I shared with manked that I won't get into right at this moment. The runner needs to have a fighting chance at escaping and not just thinking "Welp, I'm going to die..." As they see a team rushing into the caves

[cloud hatch]

The problem is that pvp in runescape has a crazy high skill ceiling and there is no structure in who you are fighting, it's going to be random each time. Investing your time into gearing up and then fighting in a totally random encounter where you can lose all that time isn't what most people want in a pvp game. There is a reason there are only a handful of full loot pvp games that stay around a long time.

[next sequoia]

People need to get over the efficiency brain rot mentality of "my time needs to always be a net positive". You're just not going to get that with the wilderness, it's never been that way.

Just don't do pvp if that's the case

[cloud hatch]

Which is why so few new people do it in osrs

[next sequoia]

That's partly why, amongst many many other factors

Not the only reason why.

[cloud hatch]

I can go pvp in a fps and get in a matchmaking match with similar people in 2 minutes

Same with fighting games

Same with even wow

[next sequoia]

Same can happen in osrs. If jagex developed a system for that

Or added updates to the wilderness worth going to

What you see now is not Osrs's potential. Far from it

It's been neglected for years. No wonder nobody wants to do pvp

Have you seen Pvp Arena. What that's like

[cloud hatch]

Find someone who's never played osrs before to pvp for a week and see how many fights they win]

[inner dew]

full loot is fine, problem usually becomes when gearing is prohibitively expensive to the point that good players just have a straight up advantage over already worse players. the other issue is usually just terrible new player experience which comes down to settings, plugins and a sense of gatekeeping of knowledge because theres no official resources and u have to rely on some veterans word (if they even bother to teach).

[next sequoia]

No duh.... find someone new to osrs and throw them into Jad or the inferno? Its the same thing?...

You need to practice any game to get better at it

[cloud hatch]

jad and inferno is the same thing every time at the same difficulty.

That's the difference

osrs is just totally random on what you run into in the wilderness

[next sequoia]

Your argument doesn't really hold up the way you're thinking it does. Throw a noobie into WoW pvp. Or Counterstrike, whatever

Its the same.

[cloud hatch]

And they get put into matchmaking matches

[inner dew]

content can mitigate that alot, larger scale pvp in mmos is generally irrelevant what ur skll level is. u just need 1 guy who tells u what to do and shotcalls and you listen

in 1v1s for sure its gonna be a skill check

[next sequoia]

Right. that's my point. Osrs could be the same as any other pvp game if Jagex PUT THE TIME into developing something for that

[cloud hatch]

They have lms

[next sequoia]

Does that have a match making system

Closest thing jagex did towards putting a matchmaking elo ranked system was pvp arena. Which was abandoned and hardly worth doing.

[cloud hatch]

Do you want wilderness pvp to be about making money off of other people or about seeing how good you are against other people?

[next sequoia]

Both.

Wilderness is fundamentally risk vs reward.

If it isn't what exactly is the point of the wilderness

[cloud hatch]

It was a cool idea 20 years ago when people didn't meta everything to death

[inner dew]

i think elo systems are a band aid to a game that has a hostile or unfun design. if your game is simply not fun to play because the skill difference is slightly too big, its flawed i think.

i play fps games like team fortress 2 and its alot less serious than tactical shooters like cs, the skill disparity doesnt rlly matter 90% of the time.

despite it being a cartoony game for kids it has a wildly high skill ceiling too.

whereas cs you have 1 life per round and a single bullet kills, ofc it will be extremely punishing and unfun when skill is different.

and in terms of MMOs specifically like osrs, i dont think ELO has much of a place at all. MMOs generally thrive on open world pvp which is fun precisely because its so unpredictable.

[cloud hatch]

The difference is that you lose your stuff in osrs. If tf2 made you go back and re-unlock your weapons after you died no one would play it.

[brazen fox]

Elo kinda boring anyway

[inner dew]

yeah thats the issue with alot of full loot games (even regular mmos too), gear becoms essentially an advantage that veterans have over new players.

[brazen fox]

Why would I wanna be forced to fight mid pkers if I wanna be good at some point

Also if am alrdy good why would I want some ego number thing when I know who I beat and who I lose to

The nature of it being open season out there means if I get better then I go from beating 90% to 95% of pkers and I only lose 1/20 encounters now

That’s p big

If I want to fight sweats like matchmaking I’ll go 304

[inner dew]

queueing into ranked would only really work for a solo gamemode anyway. ur not gonna have a proper team fight if theres zero coordination happening and no comms either.

and nobody would fight honorably so all ur left with is 1v1 NHing outlast fights

plus players themselves just setup their own tournaments which means they can set their own rules and so on

[inner dew]

yea rlly all u get out of it is a rank/number to flex

[inner dew]

blighted supplies is on the right track, i presume they will be making blighted versions of sailing foods soon?

and then for gear specifically they should do wilderness weapons or whatever, which degrade or something like this so they arent just a GP sink (like most gear that u get off GE) and instead u have to go out of ur way and get it urself

[brazen fox]

My fav type of fights anyway

But ye I don’t like it in general

And ppl do set up nh tourneys

[inner dew]

they r good but it wouldnt be everyones cup of tea

[brazen fox]

But no one cares ab number and ego

Everyone knows who is in the running to win those

[brazen fox]

Ye ofc ppl should be allowed to play for ko and fight in mismatched gear etc

[inner dew]

yeah u have fame in the game already, besides ppl who double name change and play on diff accs to be sneaky

theres this old talk about some dead mmo, i love how the guy presents the game with one of the 3 core pillars being "players as celebrities"

i forget what the other 2 were off the top of my head tho xD

and that was long before twitch/yt even

[inner dew]

also i like assymetrical modes and team modes like infected/zombies in games too, they really dont have any skill issues because its so dynamic

for example in halo with juggernaut, one player is the juggernaut until someone else kills and takes it

and infected where one player starts as a zombie and has to infect the whole lobby

and minigames like stealing creation where u can contribute to ur team not purely by pvp are good too

[tropic root]

Check that out :)

#1481632106630348904 message

[inner dew]

lol nice one

i have a ton of nostalgia for this old zombies game from like 2010

the zombies would get slowed whenever u hit/shot them so u could kite them around but if u get cornered or run out of ammo ur screwed

[tropic root]

Yea I sounds to me like the pvp arena would be fine if

1. Rewards passed the poll
2. Jagex didn't just give up on it

Like imagine if all raids 4 rewards failed the poll

Would they still release that raid? Lol

[next sequoia]

The reward shop has 2 items in it. You should see how buggy pvp arena is too. Instead of polling or gathering feedback for new rewards, they just left it there.

[tropic root]

Wilderness isn't just risk vs reward

It's that in combination with many other things such as hunt/escape gameplay (albeit done very poorly), it's a big unpredictable explorable landscape where you don't quite know when and where you'll run into someone (albeit dying in activity by the year), it's one of the only places we have a concept of PvM with PvP possibility (albeit also maybe not done as good as it could be).

It's also one of few places for clans pvp huge multi gameplay.

There's so much more than just risk vs reward, you can get that in a pvp world or bh too, but the wildy has a lot that those two don't.

However it's the risk that makes me just not interested in a lot of the wildy stuff.

I'm not saying to get rid of it, but I think it needs to have different options.

[tropic root]

Yea that just baffles me that they just let it sit.

Like idgi

[next sequoia]

I think pvp arena is the only update ever where jagex released and chose to leave it in an incredibly unfinished and buggy state. I can't recall any other update ever that has been left buggy and them not fixing it at some point.

[tropic root]

:(

I had a whole concept for a pvp arena years ago

I'd love to just make it myself!

Jagex hire me :)

[next sequoia]

Be honest. Do you feel there is a GOOD balance between risk and reward? Right now, do you think the risk OutWeighs the reward or the reward outweighs the risk?

And if the answer is "its too risky for the reward" would greater reward to balance that risk, make you enjoy the wilderness more?

Why would someone want to take on a lot of risk and not be rewarded for it. You'd think that if someone is choosing to take on more risk, or be annoyed by taking on risk, they'd want to be at least rewarded for doing so

[tropic root]

The risk absolutely outweighs any reward.

The only place it balances out is player versus player where you can PK their bank, but they can PK yours.

I think everyone is tunnel visioned into one viewpoint that risk vs reward needs to only work one kind of way (the 3-item vs skull system).

The answer I have is NOT greater reward to balance the risk.

Rather, we already have that balance when we have 1 player vs 1 player and they are choosing their fights - that's PvP worlds.

The Wilderness is waaay different.

Risk is too high for any reward there.

In fact most guides on the wiki and YouTube are about how to do wildy content with MINIMUM or zero risk while 3-iteming. They are about negating risk.

My suggestion was always to make a system of medium risk, medium reward.

Risk is also not only a matter of how much GP value we risk.

Risk is:

• Player GP value risked
• Wildy level / depth
• Monster level or danger
• Time risk - staying in longer increases risk of running into a PKer
• Singles, multi risk - multi increases risk to infinity making it completely not worth engaging in for most solo or small teams
• Location hotspot risk
• Risk of being found
• Escapability risk

That's a complicated subject.

My full answer to all this stuff was this:

1. We just need a good PvP minigame
2. Fix the wilderness starting with this:
   https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/ud7x9t/how_to_actually_improve_the_wilderness/

But honestly there iThe risk absolutely outweighs any reward.

The only place it balances out is player versus player where you can PK their bank, but they can PK yours.

I think everyone is tunnel visioned into one viewpoint that risk vs reward needs to only work one kind of way (the 3-item vs skull system).

The answer I have is NOT greater reward to balance the risk.

Rather, we already have that balance when we have 1 player vs 1 player and they are choosing their fights - that's PvP worlds.

The Wilderness is waaay different.

Risk is too high for any reward there.

In fact most guides on the wiki and YouTube are about how to do wildy content with MINIMUM or zero risk while 3-iteming. They are about negating risk.

My suggestion was always to make a system of medium risk, medium reward.

Risk is also not only a matter of how much GP value we risk.

Risk is:

• Player GP value risked
• Wildy level / depth
• Monster level or danger
• Time risk - staying in longer increases risk of running into a PKer
• Singles, multi risk - multi increases risk to infinity making it completely not worth engaging in for most solo or small teams
• Location hotspot risk
• Risk of being found
• Escapability risk

That's a complicated subject.

My full answer to all this stuff was this:

1. We just need a good PvP minigame
2. Fix the wilderness starting with this:
   https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/ud7x9t/how_to_actually_improve_the_wilderness

But honestly there is more to it than even all of this. s more to it than even all of this.

[knotty orbit]

Risk is too high for any reward there.
yeah pretty much

[tropic root]

So yea, here is something I hear over and over from PKers

"More risk needs more reward"

I feel like everyone gets stuck into thinking everything needs to be a design of more of one, more of each, more of the other.

Jagex has to balance with the economy of the entire game in mind, not just the economy of the wilderness.

As we saw jagex cannot just throw tons of alchables into the wilderness. We know that it would revive the wilderness overnight, but it will do so I'm the wrong ways.

As a thought experiment, if they added to the wilderness a "25% chance 1 billion gp treasure chest" but you can only try opening it if you are risking 10m

Even if with that reward extremely above the gp value risk, there's no way I would engage with that content, because 10m is just way too much to start with.

Plus if it were that good, clans will abuse it. Even if I could risk 10m then it won't be worth.

But then if it is worth it, it's overpowered even if it's just doubling my risk instead of just giving me 1b lol.

That's just a thought experiment I gave myself.

The point is even if they skyrocket the reward, that's missing the point.

I don't like risk gameplay or I could only see myself doing it if I were so stinking rich in runescape that losing 1m or 10m or 50m feels like nothing to me.

It's going to take a very long time for me to have that kind of in-game wealth.

My compromise answer fir the wildy is again, medium risk, medium reward.

And also just good, risk free pvp minigames... that don't get neglected and left in a terribly buggy state.

Because not all PvP has to be about risk and that part that is about risk goes to extremes too much.

[inner dew]

"zero to hero" and "ratting" are good ways to do risky content without reqs in games

like snowballing in survival games, or getting loot then depo'ing it asap

[minor aspen]

I think it’s a bit harder to nail down as “high risk high reward” because those are totally dependent on the players choice. You can do rogues chest and agility basically naked for significant reward. And if no other players ever choose to pk there, it’s also no risk.

[tropic root]

Indeed thas what I'm sayin'

There's also another aspect of: if the wilderness became heavily more active and players did frequently PK there, the "mice" population would die out because then the risk would outweigh the reward too much.

Then it would die and it would be dead.

Though there is also people doing mass agility course, again negating the risks. I'm not saying that's inherently good or bad though.

I had this thought when I tried the wilderness altar.

I never experienced rev caves multi, but it sounds like it worked except for the effect on the economy, the clan domination, and the rwt/botting.

[forest kraken]

I think your view is extremely flawed. You’re saying risk vs reward isn’t worth it for most players but I think that’s completely wrong.

For example you can bring literally 100k risk to vettion and make 5m+ per hour.

Same at rogues chest and wildy agility. The reward comes from the activities pumping out gp, and the PKers get to skip doing the activity by killing you for your loot

You don’t necessarily need to bring any risk into the Wildy at all

[winged thorn]

More reward would help imo. As mentioned a lot, larran’s keys are the best money maker in the wildy. That’s pathetic considering how “frequent” (/s) people pk at that boat

[inner dew]

wiki said u get negative money per hour there lol

wiki illuminati trying to keep it secret

[winged thorn]

Omg wiki has been updated & keys are no longer bis money maker l0l

First Wildy method for gp is still #20 on the list. Seems like an issue imo when it’s the only place you die & lose your stuff

[inner dew]

greg07 was doing it for his new acc series

[tropic root]

If it IS worth it for most players, like you're saying, then

1. Why is pvp only 10% or less of the playerbase
2. Are thousands of other players who've been saying they don't like risk and that's why they don't wildy, which they've been saying for 10+ years, are they wrong about their own feelings?
3. Is the PvP community growing or dying?

This argument has gone on between people for 10 years

As I said before, risk is not just a matter of the gp value you risk. Imma repost my list.

Risk is:

• Player GP value risked
• Wildy level / depth
• Monster level or danger
• Time risk - staying in longer increases risk of running into a PKer
• Singles, multi risk - multi increases risk to infinity making it completely not worth engaging in for most solo or small teams
• Location hotspot risk
• Risk of being found
• Escapability risk

The balance of types of risk vs reward is just not in a place that allows the wilderness community to grow instead of decline.

Beyond just risk, a lot of the gameplay around certain activities in the wilderness is just fundamentally not fun or doesn't scale - in other words could be better and needs a redesign.

[tropic root]

Now this yes is true

The question is: is the gameplay fun and something people want to get into

[forest kraken]

I’ll answer your points directly:

1. pvp is generally dying because (imo) the game has transitioned to a pvm focus, and there are much more exiting pvp game options like Fortnite, Csgo, league, dota, valorant, I could go on.
2. That’s anecdotal, I would agree generally that most players don’t like pvp but thats due to this game going in a pve direction for so long that it just doesn’t make sense to engage with pvp for most people.
3. I’m sure it’s dying but I don’t have the numbers

I would generally agree with you but I don’t agree with your opinion on th Wildy not being worth the risk, it’s some of my favourite content and I can go there on a level 60 account and make just as much gp as maxed main which I think is cool for some players

[winged thorn]

Your last point rings true. One of the cool things about doing the wildy bosses are the room mechanics that are designed to help the pvmer. In some cases, for really skilled players, ppl use the room mechanics to their advantage. But vennenatis for example breaks when you get more than 4 ppl in the room. Stuff like that could work if it wasn’t so broken & then left to rot

[forest kraken]

But could there be massive improvements? Of course

[tropic root]

Wildy agility is a great example that the problem isn't solely just the risk too

And that people misunderstand risk, most just break it down to just GP value

You can do Wildy Agility with 0 risk technically, and earn free money, technically.

But that doesn't mean there is "no risk" - you still have the risk of getting PKed and losing what you earned, wasting all that time

And some people do it, but it's not exactly a wilderness activity that is popping off nor is the thing in the wilderness that is growing the pvp community.

And is it even really fun gameplay?

[forest kraken]

Depends how you class fun. I’ve been in multi clans for a long time and it’s some of the most fun content I’ve ever done in this game.

Bare in mind my main is a maxed iron with thousands of hours ehb

And imo multi pking is the most fun thing in this game

[tropic root]

True, it is fun for some people

But not enough that it grows the wilderness

And the problem is that most activities in the wilderness are like that

[winged thorn]

What’s sad is you can’t really approach the community about this “issue”. It’s looked at as a way to “bait” ppl into wild rather than an issue that needs to be dealt with

[tropic root]

My tl:dr view is that the wilderness needs some highly conscientious design that has areas that are good for solo players, areas that are good for small teams, and areas that are good for clans, and some areas that kind of mix them together, but others that let them be apart

[forest kraken]

IMO this is more a problem that jagex have created. There’s demand for multi but the last update we got was removal of revs, multi bosses, rogues castle and wildy agility

And none of that is very inspiring

[inner dew]

its funny ppl do wildy agility masses but it doesnt even help because u cant defend anybody bc of pj timer

[forest kraken]

But when you think of pvm content, there’s constant new bosses being added, literally on a quarterly basis there’s new bis pvm challenges being released, constant new game modes to keep people entertained, etc

[winged thorn]

There has to be something to be said though about the best wildy gp method being #20 on the list & only 5.6m/hr when it’s the only place ppl die & lose their stuff

[forest kraken]

You’re not considering though that pvp can also be the best gp/hr from the very nature of the content though

Like a big team can pk daily Elysians, zcbs, harms, voidwakers pretty easily

But I would agree that there should be more of a lure to the wildy

But that’s on jagex for removing revs and not giving us anything to replace it

We’ve been begging for rebs to be readded for literally years

[winged thorn]

Daily ely’s? I only know of one clan that comes close.
I think revs worked for its times because it was one of the best money makers. Even if they brought it back at the same price point it is rn I think it flops. A lot of it is because of the mindset but also because there’s other activities I can do for more w/ less stress

[forest kraken]

There’s lots of clans that have the numbers and regularly do that but only one that shows it off…

[winged thorn]

Unfortunate, they should broadcast & encourage pvp

[forest kraken]

Agreed

It’s on jagex to facilitate it though. The point I’m trying to make is the demand is there but jagex just need to push it along and encourage it

At the moment 90% of the player base sees multi as something toxic that shouldn’t be in the game and actively discouraged

[winged thorn]

I wish they’d grow some cajones & say “We removed multi revs with an unpolled integrity change & we are bringing it back with an unpolled integrity change”

Or whatever piece of wildy content for that matter.

[next sequoia]

"In fact most guides on the wiki and youtube are about how to do wildy content with minimum or zero risk while 3-iteming. They are about negating risk".

That's because 99% of wilderness content encourages risking the bare minimum because utilizing the bare minimum is not punishing. Most content in the wilderness can be done with zero risk because it doesn't effect the rate at which you can do the content. It's designed that way. 99% of activities in the wilderness does not incentivize risking more for greater reward and that's something I don't like.

I'm not saying content should be designed to force people to risk more. I'd like content to be designed for both types of players.

Here's an example. With the Multi wilderness bosses (Callisto, Venenatis, Vet'ion), imagine if I could change my boss entrance fee from 50k to 1 Million risk. In doing so (risking 1M minimum), killing the boss gives me a 15% chance at 1 boss kill dropping 2 loot roles. This would only work for Solo or Duo players, not masses. A feature like this gives brave players who Opt in to risking more, an incentive for doing so. Anyone who doesn't wish to, can kill the boss like normal. Something like that could be fun and cool imo.
Could even add a little twist to it where let's say I opt in to the 1M fee, 500k of the death fee can go to the pker, the other 500k can be a gold sink and wiped from the game.

Just random incentives for people to opt in to risking more and being rewarded for it could be cool...

You can catch black chins in 2k risk, and do the content just fine.
You can go to wildy altar with 1 inventory of bones and do just fine.
You can kill revenants in a magic shortbow and do just fine.
You can kill vet'ion or calvarion in monk robes and a zammy hasta and do just fine.
Wildy activities hardly incentivize people to risk more.

[cinder lagoon]

i wish it was standard to include anti pking gear in these guides

like a big part of my learning was doing chaos fanatic and just anti pking

thats how i learned how to spec correctly for example

[next sequoia]

The only content that incentivizes risking more in the current wilderness is Revenants with amulet of avarice and Wildy weapon, chaos altar noted bones (which nobody really does), and zombie pirates with avarice and a cannon (also which nobody really does)

I want more content that could encourage risk vs reward.

Because there are players out there who wouldn't mind risking more instead of the bare minimum

We're just not rewarded for doing it.

[naive ore]

anti pking gear just isnt worth it most of the time unless you are already used to pking. you are better off teleporting away before the fight even starts and in multi situation you are not winning against teams. the increased risk for increased loot could make more people think of anti pking but it would basically require singles situation with no easy tele out for most people

[forest kraken]

You are rewarded for risking more though, especially once you consider parchments and rev weapons. Someone risking 2m will be getting many more kills per hour than someone risking 150k at vettion for example.

But generally I would also like more content that encourages risking

Like multi revs the team with more players and in better gear would beat the smaller team

Everything boils down to just add multi revs back

[naive ore]

giving additional risk option for solo/duo in multiboss is really just going to make it a hotspot for clans and teams to hunt those solo/duo players

[forest kraken]

Also true

[cinder lagoon]

thats why chaos fanatic is a good learning spot

two easy spots for a tele out, and you have mage up all teh time already

so its max 2 min 30 teleblock

survive for 2 mins or use one of the two ease tele's out next to you

or try to anti pk

its not multi either

[next sequoia]

Isn't it already a hotspot?...

[forest kraken]

Personally I would always rather bring my 3 items to help me kill the boss faster than to anti pk

Not only am I an iron so I don’t care about the anti pk but I want to maximise my gp:hr

[next sequoia]

I don't really buy the "But the economy could be damaged!" Argument. There are bosses in the wider game that have terrible drop tables for the economy, not just wilderness bosses/monsters.
We have a revenant boss that's been spawning on every single members world 24 hours per day dropping a guaranteed 500k-1M RAW CASH every kill. The game hasn't ended because of that.

[next sequoia]

Again. Because as you said, the content doesn't incentivize risking more.. Nothing really benefits you for going out of your way to doing so

[next sequoia]

That's a good point. I definitely think multi revs wouldn't be as popular as it was back then due to a couple of reasons

1: Way more worlds now than there was back then
2: Single revs would be an option alongside multi revs. (It was ONLY multi revs back then)
3: Better money makers across the wider game now than there was back then.
4: Lack of additional incentives to choose multi revs over singles revs.

Protect clans and every world being "locked down" would not be an issue like a lot of people are freaking out about.

[naive ore]

with it being both multi and singles revs most pvmers shouldnt have much reason to go against it, outside fear of them removing over 80% of revs from singles and putting them in multi

They just have bad experiences or heard to rumors about protection clans from their worst time

[tropic root]

Now that's an idea I quite like

Stuff I came up with has that similar theme of scaled risk vs reward

I think stuff along those lines are the way to go!

[next sequoia]

I can only dream. Lots of things they could do to spice up the wilderness but I doubt it ever happens unfortunately

[tropic root]

I can't tell you how anything will affect the economy

But Jagex developers seem to have their own beliefs and statistics about it

That's the thing

[next sequoia]

If I go kill venenatis and I get a 1.4M onyx bolt tips drop, anyone in their right mind just automatically thinks to bank it. You'd be dumb not to. What if there was a feature where I could choose to stay and risk those bolt tips and be rewarded for doing so?
A risk vs reward feature, maybe a boss kill streak feature.

Things like that.

Nothing incentivizes risk vs reward.

[tropic root]

Player perception is a big factor

Who wants to get into PvP when it's only known for being toxic, dead, high skill floor and skill gap, hard to learn, closed off by skilled veterans, expensive, unfair, clan dominated, etc

And also neglected greatly on case of PvP Arena and Wildy

At this point PvP needs some kind of successful change to help start to turn around player perception

It's all about the message

It's not like Jagex hasn't been trying, but it seems we've missed the mark enough that now it's been abandoned

After things not quite working out year after year, if I were in the decelopers shoes I could understand being demotivated

[forest kraken]

No, jagex hasn’t been trying at all

It’s much easier to work on a pvm update that will be engaged with by 90% of players, always passes votes with flying colours and is marketable compared to fixing the wildy issues which is none of those things

ATP we can’t poll wildy updates anymore or they just won’t happen

[next sequoia]

Pretty much.

[wide crater]

Gm pvp cord. Glad to see some interesting conversation popping off, skimmed it a bit cant wait to catch up after work

[tropic root]

Now that's just disingenuous to say.

They've been trying for 10 years, it's just it hasn't been working.

Though it IS fair to say that for these past few years as it kinda feels they stopped trying after the PvP Arena.

[tropic root]

Now that all is very true tho

But what is the solution?

Just unpolled wildy changes?

[forest kraken]

By definition they have tried

PvP arena having no significant rewards was unacceptable

[tropic root]

agreed brotha

[forest kraken]

I was actually hyped for pvp arena

[tropic root]

I came back recently and heard about that and I'm like whaaaaat

I really want some answers as to why that happened and then was just left in the dust?

[forest kraken]

PvP arena could’ve easily had bounty hunter cosmetic rewards at least

But again it’s just a complete lack of any care from jagex

It’s now just an Ironman place people go to suicide to their alts for imbues

[tropic root]

I'm sure they have more reasoning behind it than "lack of care"

I'd guess it's more of "they can't see any solution to it that will pass a poll so why try"

If that's even the case - I don't know what every developer is working on in the background or what their priorities are

I really hate to just write them off as "don't care"

[forest kraken]

Well there’s multiple issues with how abusable it is for points right so they can’t have any significant rewards because it’s a botters paradise

[naive ore]

the thing about pvp arena polls is that they even had 20 wilderness/pvp worlds* kills requirement to vote, still only 50-70% yes

[tropic root]

exactly

and knowing that, why would they even try to develop it more or poll it more, knowing nobody can agree to change it?

even if they care about it, the community will stop them from fixing it

[forest kraken]

They don’t care just means they don’t care enough compared to other projects or priorities. If raids 4 was released dead on arrival they would look to fix that pretty quickly

[tropic root]

yea true

[forest kraken]

Obviously no one wants any content to arrive DOA

I think pvp arena had great potential personally and I’d love for someone to tel me if they disagree or why they voted no

[naive ore]

Like these polls 2.5k people had the requirement of 20 kills and they always got 70% yes, everyone had access to vote for the wilderness npc part and those are basically 50/50

[forest kraken]

They didn’t add them because of the voting backlash in feedback right?

People weren’t happy with the restricted voting

Or was that when polls were 75% to pass

[naive ore]

its 75% threshhold to pass

[forest kraken]

Ok

[tropic root]

yea

[naive ore]

later changed to 70% but at that poll it was still 75%

[tropic root]

That plays out to exactly what I said before how the cat will always vote for what works for the cat, and the mouse will always vote for what works for the mouse

So it will always be a 50/50 if you let both vote, and the cat will always vote in favor of itself

And neither situation is ideal

[forest kraken]

Having polls on this content is just deeply flawed

Unless the content is a win for both the cat and the mouse

[tropic root]

If you let only PKers vote on wilderness stuff, they will vote in favor of themselves mainly, so much that the mouse gameplay is neglected and that population dies out, then the PKers will die out too

But if you let both vote, nothing changes, and it all dies out anyway.

Multiplayer PvP requires rapid iteration and response to balancing problems that have to be enforced by developers who are looking at the bigger picture

Indeed - polling does not work for this structure

[tropic root]

On the other hand, it has forced me to come up with very unique solutions that try to do that

Like I have come up with something that can turn wilderness content into something that is a win for both the cat and mouse even if the mouse gets PKed

it is long and complicated to explain in detail but simple in execution

[glacial gate]

not always brother. Not always. I always fight even if at a numbers disadvantage with my small team. Because we got real shooters vs bolt raggers lol.

[forest kraken]

Oh for sure big respect for that too. Small organised team not clumping and barraging the correct piles is so much stronger than a big disorganised team

But that’s part of why multi is so good

It’s a shame a lot of people will never experience that

[verbal ore]

been actively trying to get back into it, with the caveat of not joining a group that has rwt/services in their discord. been weeks and i still havent found a group lol.

[winged thorn]

Good luck finding such individuals in an already divisive space

Probably looking for a smaller team of friends rather than a clan

[winged thorn]

Almost like a running wealth accumulator. Would be very easily taken advantage of, but it’s an idea

That no matter what happens to me in wild, I still have x loot waiting

[verbal ore]

its funny because its literally like 100%

shameless

[glacial gate]

im like 100% sure my clan doesnt have advertisers or maybe the channels hidden from me because i flame them /shrug/
But also you're not getting into an established clan as noone with no references.

[forest kraken]

Ye pretty much ^

I mute and hide all those channels immediately

And I flame them so hard if I get a ping or god forbid they pm me

Last time I joined the server flamed the admin for a bit then got insta banned

[glacial gate]

As is tradition

[verbal ore]

its not a matter of admission, i haven't been denied once. just literally all of them so far have had it

[glacial gate]

oh you must be tryna join those open cc clans lol

Gl with that!

[verbal ore]

no

[glacial gate]

a lot of places do have that stuff though. Just ignore the channel block the person posting in it.

Works wonders.

[verbal ore]

but why would i want to associate with folks that need that kind of help

[glacial gate]

its in a lotta the pvm discords too brother idk what you're getting at.

[verbal ore]

like joining a counterstrike team with cheats in their dis, like they arent even good

[winged thorn]

Every clan advertises

[tropic root]

running wealth accumulator? wdym

[glacial gate]

like stack up rewards on a boss or somethin i think

[winged thorn]

Time spent in wild = reward
Time spent doing activity = reward

Regardless of if pk’d

[tropic root]

oh yeee

[verbal ore]

lmao what happened

i come back from a break with a long history of being in clans without ts and now every clan has it

[glacial gate]

its been this way for like 10 years bro

[verbal ore]

sad

[glacial gate]

ik the pvm clan i play with have def turned down some mad offers for it.

they pay very lucratively to my knowledge.

[forest kraken]

It’s just the clan owners getting that bag

Just don’t engage with it it’s not really that deep

They pay about 300m per month

For literally just having their own channel and spamming in it

It’s freee money

[verbal ore]

there is no other option

i want 0 teammates that need that kind of support

[forest kraken]

Why do you see it like that though?

Genuinely

You think that everyone in that clan, because a services discord advertises in jt, uses those services?

You can’t genuinely believe that right?

[verbal ore]

not literally

but again, its like applying to join a counter strike team and they have cheats in their dis

i would just immediately think they are dogshit

[forest kraken]

I can kinda see that logic but advocating for cheats is a bit different to having a services discord advertising

Services discords aren’t always against the rules

But cheating on CSGO is straight up illegal

Also, again, if I joined astralis discord just because they have 420 aim bot channel being advertised doesn’t mean I’ll think any less of astralis main team

It’s just the discord admins collecting free money

[tropic root]

You're not gonna believe this, I had a similar thought about my whole Blessed Status thing

Like, I had a eureka moment about it a week ago

For those who haven't seen it: Blessed Status is basically like PvM death coffer in Wildy, cost 100k to activate, prevents skulling because it's a different overhead, but there is no 500k maximum fee on expensive items, so the cost of expensive gear still scales a lot.

The death fee goes to whoever kills you. There's a lot of other rules to make it fair around Skulling/3iteming plz don't judge too hard haha

Using it a player would find themselves wanting to participate in content where they can break even against their death fee of 100k +- 1%-5% fee.

There's a part of this system where I realized it could work out great for both the "cat" and "mouse" of the equation.

One of the premises I started with for Blessed Status is that your death fee (5% the GE cost of your items) is only paid on items you bring into the wilderness.

If you gain items in the wilderness however, such as an Amulet of Eternal Glory (worth ~40m), at first I thought to say those items would be 100% dropped to any player who kills you, excluded from your death coffer.

But I thought about it further: What if gained items also get the death fee?

Then the player who got the 40m glory would get to keep it, but they would incur a 2m death fee which the PKer would earn.

In this situation, technically, both the cat and mouse come out positively. The mouse still gained a 40m item (minus 2m), and the PK got a kill worth 2m - still pretty good.

Thinking further - I realized I could just raise the death fee for gained-in-the-wilderness items, and it would still be a positive for the mouse even if they died to a cat.

So I would settle on a 25% death fee for gained items. In this example, the mouse comes out with a 40m glory minus 10m, and the PKer comes out with a 10m split.

Both players still come out positive.

This scales to everything you could do in the Wilderness.

If you get a Voidwaker blade drop (1.7m) but get PKed during your escape from the Wildy, you're still up 1.2m and the PKer gets 425k on top of the rest of your death fee.

Essentially, a PKer is killing you for a "split" of what you are earning in the Wilderness. It's not everything you have on you, but it is still substantial.

Even at a 50% fee or split this still works out.

This kind of balancing is not possible with skulling or 3iteming, because you just lose all your items outside of what is protected. There is no middle-ground with those systems, it's very all-or-nothing. Great for people who like it, but not for people who don't.

---

And also tiered blessed status had a premise of rewarding players for staying in the wildy longer haha but the whole blessed system is what would enable someone to do that without feeling like they could just die near the point they wanna "extract" and lose and waste all of that time.

damn that message got longer than I wanted it to be

[glacial gate]

so i dont get the items on them? yeah no thanks

[tropic root]

Kill someone who's skulled or 3iteming if you want that

[glacial gate]

it only empowers ragging

[tropic root]

I haven't explained the full system but that is addressed

Blessed players can only freely attack other blessed players. Against skulled/3item, they can only retaliate. So they cannot rag those players. As blessed are not allowed to attack in scenarios where they would gain a skull - except against other blessed players.

Plus 100k minimum risk means they can still be killed for something.

As opposed to real ragging where you risk literally 0 and protect item.

[glacial gate]

100k is akin to 0 but i cant destroy the key so it actively rags me more tbh.

[tropic root]

100k is 0 to you, but a good bit to me. and also won't necessarily be just 100k.

The target audience of this idea is not seasoned PKers who treat 10m deaths like nothing lol. It's for people who might be on the fence about getting into wilderness activities and are put off by how the current mechanics of skulling work. It's intended to grow new blood into the activity.

Also I didn't even mention the key mechanics, there wouldn't necessarily be an indestructable key. But blessed gets its own Blessed Key separate from the Loot Key.

I actually don't know why Loot Keys were made indestructable. I just know there's like a 30k or 1m limit about it. Anyone know lol?

Since Blessed Keys will probably primarily be GP keys I was thinking they could just merge into 1. I had a thought that if the KOed player wants to, they could give up some items at death's office, then the PKer would get it. Dunno why they would want to though lol.

[verbal ore]

astralis doesnt have a monetary incentive for you to lose items

it is in their best interest for you to die and lose your stuff if you are putting money in their pocket to get it back

[glacial gate]

how would you factor untradeables into the blessed status.

Or is full void just going to be free to anti pk in

[tropic root]

I think trouver parchments need some kinda different tuning

[glacial gate]

They have for years lol

[tropic root]

haha

Well

[forest kraken]

This is the biggest stretch but whatever dude, do what you like haha

[verbal ore]

crazy delusion

its the entire business model

[forest kraken]

You’re not forced to engage with it though

[verbal ore]

name 1 clan without it and i will happily shut up and apply

[forest kraken]

You’re saying that as if you have to go and buy services if they’re advertised

[glacial gate]

My clan.

[verbal ore]

pure clan?

[tropic root]

The way I remember it in 2010 was that untradeables dropped a certain GP value on wilderness death, and broke.

I think every untradeable needs to be given a unique price based on how good/bad it is, and they should just break on death regardless of wilderness level.

Like early on, untradeables were OP in the wildy because you got them back for free. Then I recall they made them completely disappear beyond 30 wildy which was unfair, and I believe got broken in lower level wildy. And then they added trouver parchments to keep them beyond 30 wildy, but then it costs 1m+ no matter what level that is and is an insanely negative sum game for PKer vs PKer.

So simplifying it to just breaking and it drops a GP value for the other player is simple.

This is regardless of blessed/skulled/3iteming.

But I was thinking Blessed could bypass the whole "breaking" equipment thing, and let you just buy it back for its value through the death coffer, and that value just goes to the PKer. It is functionally the same as how I'd want it to work without Blessed Status.

---

There is one alternative to dropping the GP value though.

Say I die with my void knight stuff in the wilderness. The equipment gets broken on my side and I have to pay the repairguy 500k to fix it or something. The PKer also earned 500k GP. from your drop.

I was brainstorming an idea where I have my broken void knight stuff, and the PKer is dropped a void knight equipment shard instead of 500k GP, and this shard is tradeable on the GE.

And the repair guy says, well, to repair this you're going to need 100k and a void knight equipment shard.

And so you'd want to buy this shard on the GE or something. And if you can't get one that way, you'll have to buy it for some set price from a Void Knight NPC of maybe like 500k.

Why do this? - Because Jagex might have some kind of concern about the economy.

I haven't really thought about that idea too deeply though, it's just a jumping off point for brainstorming.

I saw a post by KempQ in the PvP discord about items beyond 30 wilderness getting "mangled" but costing 5x to repair, basically an alternative to the trouver system or so.

Mod Manked replied asking if people could abuse that by dying with dragon defenders or something. Here's his quote:

"E.g. Dragon defender is 240k normally, deep wildy it would be 1.2m... This would mean getting dragon defenders and dying to your friend could generate ~3m per hour? Other items will potentially have similar issues, but the dragon defender is the most obvious one to me."

So combine with my idea and perhaps at 30+ wildy, your item would get mangled, and the PKer gets a "mangled void knight equipment shard".

This mangled shard can either be bought on the GE, or from a Void Knight, and it costs 5x the normal shard. It prevents GP from being generated from the system, leaving GP to only be sunk by the repairguy, the Void Knight, or the GE, but in a more controlled and fine-tuned way per item than trouver parchments.

The price of getting the mangled shard or normal shard controls the price it sells for on the GE, giving an untradeable item a tradable value.

Perhaps that solves it? Haha.

---

Extra note:

Personally, I don't know/understand why items would need to be more expensive beyond 30 wilderness though, or why they can't just be a set price all across upon being broken.

Like if we really don't wanna see people use voids in deep wildy but it's more fair in edge/pvp worlds I suppose? Since that de-incentivizes using it any deeper.

But the answer to that goes up to people who really understand the specific balance of items in certain parts of the wilderness.

[glacial gate]

main clan. i hate pures lol

[tropic root]

@fervent crystal @fading tiger hope you two don't mind some pings but here is some feedback I have on a very old idea I read about in the PvP discord lol

[latent relic]

I won't allow anyone to advertise services in our server. They still ask all the time and the answer is always no.

Clans don't have to do it just because "every clan advertises". It's your reputation if you advertise it people will rightfully assume you support and use it.

[verbal ore]

the cooler daniel

[forest kraken]

Only thing that matters regarding reputation is who wins the war. Sit on your high horse all you like about not having them advertise but if you back down when the big dogs are warring and you’re too scared to show up then that says it all

[verbal ore]

lmao but u guys buy money

wallet battle

[forest kraken]

I’m not even in a clan lol?

[tropic root]

Meanwhile me who isn't in a clan:

[forest kraken]

But I know who’s winning

[tropic root]

Neither side has any reputation with me!

And neither do I :D

[forest kraken]

And I’m an iron lmfao

[tropic root]

heh

[forest kraken]

This guy is funny man

Apparently irons can buy gp

[verbal ore]

ur being disingenuous, every iron has an alt

and you defend the practice, you are "them"

[tropic root]

thats cool can I have shadow + gauntlets

pl0x

:D

[forest kraken]

You don’t understand how the world works and that’s okay

I’m a realist

And I know the clans at the top

All do it

[winged thorn]

Respectable. I don’t lead clans anymore so it’s not for me to worry about imo

[forest kraken]

I havnt stepped foot in a clan in 5+ years and this guy thinks I’m in a clan buying gold

Goodness me

[tropic root]

I don't recall anyone saying that

[forest kraken]

?

[tropic root]

oh well psh

[verbal ore]

do you deny that you said this in defense of the practice or not??

you are them bro

[forest kraken]

I’m not defending the practice I’m saying who cares

[winged thorn]

What he said isn’t wrong though. It’s just a matter of fact statement

[tropic root]

I think mods don't want you guys to have your argument about whatever here lol

[winged thorn]

What matters to ppl who clan is who wins

[forest kraken]

I think it’s scummy but if you’re actively not joining clans because of it you’re the only one losing out

[winged thorn]

On top of community etc

So he’s not really wrong in what he’s saying that “ppl don’t care”

Becuase it’s the truth

Some do, obviously. Most engaging in clans, don’t

[forest kraken]

^

People wanna be at the top of the food chain

There are clans who are there and those clans all do it

[glacial gate]

having a few more sets isnt going to change if y our clans good or bad lol

[forest kraken]

Exactly

Its all in the callers and the leadership

[winged thorn]

If you’ve multi clanned long enough you’ve also seen clans cheat & how it ends up biting them in the ass anyways lol

[forest kraken]

Yep the clans who cheat end up getting everyone teaming on them because no one likes a cheater

[verbal ore]

very blurry line in the sand when it comes to that label

[winged thorn]

Interesting to think that the normal player looking at clans from the outside inward don’t really understand the politics of it

Someone tried saying that every multi clan lures their new members

Like logically, how would that clan survive…?

You don’t think there’s a social aspect to that..?

[tropic root]

Hi I'm that normal player outside of clans!

It sounds to me like clans have a bunch of nothing highschool drama, as is common for online communities especially sharing a similar space.

[forest kraken]

If you think advertising servicing discords is a step too far, seeing some of the things these top level multi clans do will really turn you off from the scene as a whole

[granite sphinx]

These are always my favorite takes lol

[tropic root]

I feel like you're quoting me haha

I think you got the wrong idea when you got that conclusion from the thing I wrote!

Now - other people saying that, screw those guys!

[winged thorn]

Nope, was another individual who normally just rage baits.

[verbal ore]

it did, i was involved when AHK became a big problem and left for a long time. now its much worse

[tropic root]

So as the outside-of-clans-normal guy here

It sounds like you guys are arguing about clans advertising for people to join their clan?

What is wrong with that lmao

[forest kraken]

The doxing is what turned me away for a long time

[glacial gate]

theres actually n ot that many ahkers anymore. its toned donw a lot

[forest kraken]

Finding peoples family members and employment places over a game

Is so cringe

[verbal ore]

they advertise gold sellers and people who do fire capes and whatnot

[glacial gate]

just dont join those spaces. Noone likes those nerds anyways.

[tropic root]

oh well fuck that lol

[winged thorn]

They’re arguing about rwt services & bots / macros being advertised by bigger clans

[tropic root]

ahhh

well those clans need to be banned lmao

[verbal ore]

no shit, and its like literally all of them

[tropic root]

lmao

hahahahaha

god damnit

I'm trying to keep an open mind about clans

[winged thorn]

I think clans create their own drama between themselves because of the lack of content especially these days.
When multi revs were around drama was created organically

[tropic root]

hahahaha

[winged thorn]

But “organic drama” in the multi revs era would be like 2 clans that pull 40 each going out of the same time of the day

[tropic root]

I think people tend to get bored when things are getting "too peaceful"

Now if only the solution were to just do fun events or something instead of get angry at each other over nothing!

[verbal ore]

castle wars with a clan was fun before ahk

just as an event type thing

[forest kraken]

These are peopl e who have been obsessed with power in a point and click medieval simulator for 10+ years, you think they’re rational lik that?

[winged thorn]

Ahk in multi is a myth 😭

Ahk in a minigame 😭 😭

[tropic root]

Oh I know those kinds of people. There is no fixing them.

[winged thorn]

l00”

[latent relic]

Clans not promoting things that go against jagex terms of service and game integrity should be the norm. It isn't but that doesn't mean we have to just accept it.

[glacial gate]

high end content albeit pvp or pvm always has these bad actor nerds.
I think people should really REALLY take the time to level up and not be shit at things before they comment on the state of communities lol

[tropic root]

What does their level have to do with the integrity of the community?

[forest kraken]

I mean I agree and tbh my point reads too aggressive in support of it - that’s why I actively troll these advertisers if I ever come into contact with them

But good on you for not engaging with it

[glacial gate]

a low level or bad player will generally not have access into higher level communities. Hope this helps!

[forest kraken]

That’s refreshing

[tropic root]

And how does that change whether or not it's wrong for clans to advertise things that are against Jagex's ToS?

[latent relic]

I agree we have manufactured our own drama.

[verbal ore]

a lot of people benefit by people being accepting of the ads

and will resist criticism of it as its in their interest monetarily

[glacial gate]

Because we're equating it to a pvp problem. Thats where my issue is.
I was the first person to say i troll the boosters etc lol im totally against it, but it is the norm.

[tropic root]

ye true

[winged thorn]

I don’t really care personally ngl

People are gonna cheat regardless

[tropic root]

also true lol

[latent relic]

Yeah I mean players cheating is jagex problem lol

[winged thorn]

Like an adult nuanced approach should be taken rather than “ban every clan that advertises lol”

That’s literally the entire pvp scene like gl I guess ?

(Minus WG)

[tropic root]

Only Jagex can drop the hammer!

But I have seen there are players who dedicate to the vigilantism of getting evidence on cheaters and stuff.

[latent relic]

Yeah that's too far imo

Let jagex worry about it

[forest kraken]

If jagex supported clanning and regularly added more content then there would be more positive multi clans but I feel because it’s been ignored for so long it’s let the bad seeds grow

[tropic root]

It's too far for a player to submit evidence of their own accord and interest to do so?

[latent relic]

No that's what the report function is for

[tropic root]

That's what I think

[tropic root]

I suppose, but if a person can get video or otherwise it helps doesn't it

[latent relic]

Depends on if you trust randos to get things right

[glacial gate]

you're going to video someone servicing?

im sorry what

if we're talking just ahk theres a report function in game for pvp cheating

utilize it

[latent relic]

I'd rather jagex investigate behind the scenes than base things on videos submitted by random vigilantes

[tropic root]

true

[forest kraken]

You can show jagex the discords but ultimately there’s nothing jagex can do, they don’t control discord and they’re not going to manually ban every clan member because someone in their discord is breaking the rules

[latent relic]

Report them ingame and let jagex handle the rest

[latent relic]

Nor should they, people shouldn't be guilty by association in a video game

[tropic root]

we need some of that "A player you reported has been banned!" system

[glacial gate]

just bully any ahk'ers or cape buyers you see

they end up quitting the clan before long

[verbal ore]

well said

[glacial gate]

i do my part

not even ashamed either lol

[winged thorn]

We gotta get deal with this myth that Ahk runs rampant in multi & minigames though 😭

[forest kraken]

If jagex added regular multi content, worked with clans to figure out what they want and encouraged clanning as a core activity of the game I bet tonnes more clans would pop up with a higher level of integrity

Again it boils down to 0 support from jagex

[latent relic]

Why do people assume there's ahk in multi? How would that even work for overheads. Your getting hit with mage, range, melee

[winged thorn]

I don’t get it either really. Ahk is supposed to be an advantage. What kind of advantage do I have in multi when there’s 16 ppl hitting me?

[latent relic]

Like maybe you could argue they use it for eating I guess

[glacial gate]

yeah its laughable. Like theres ahk bots in lms sure. But theres also dogshit whip you only bots. lol.
There is no reason whatsoever to ahk in multi, yet some people do it for food/freezes im sure. But like there's ahkers/bots doing toa too nonstop 24 hours a day, and chambers and yama you know every bit of content in the game lol.

[tropic root]

Unfortunately now that it has been a thing, that is going to become part of the player perception of what PvP is like.

[tropic root]

It's assumed because it's what everyone was saying everyone is cheating everyone is cheating for months

[winged thorn]

I understand but like the perception of the ppl that play this game has never been very good… logically, why would someone cheat in a minigame?

[tropic root]

Like that's all I've been hearing lol

[latent relic]

Ahk their food and still get KOed through their pneck

[verbal ore]

i mentioned it in reference to what it was like in 2016 2017ish

[tropic root]

Same reason people aimbot in FPS games that don't matter XD

[verbal ore]

if you are referring to my comment

[glacial gate]

bruh thats 10 years ago

We gotta catch you up

[latent relic]

I assume the people they think are clienting are just LMS bots farming points for gp

[glacial gate]

some of them lms bots whoop ass im ngl

get you sweatin lol

[latent relic]

Terminator bots make you sweat for sure

Doing the rackson on you and everything

[winged thorn]

Ahhh I see

[winged thorn]

Maybe yeah, my brain went to Ahk in castle wars l0”

Like no way in hell that’s real

[latent relic]

Some of the newer LMS bots type messages to you as well

[verbal ore]

it was, doesnt seem like it is now though

[forest kraken]

Wth?

That’s crazy

[verbal ore]

i think people tested in there or something back then

[forest kraken]

I havnt been to Lms in a while but that’s not surprising tbh

[latent relic]

Yeah same messages at different parts of the fight

Just part of the script to stop you from reporting them

[winged thorn]

Are we defining afk the same way? Used for auto clicking your switches right. Not a client that recognizes gear & prays for you?

I’m not disagreeing just wanna make sure we are same page

[latent relic]

Yeah ahk and client is a bit different

[verbal ore]

they were like prototype terminator bots

full NH brid and pray swapping

but beatable

[latent relic]

Yeah those are bots

[tropic root]

:(

[winged thorn]

You need in game playing time or a skill total lvl before doing LMS. Sounds like they were stuffing their bots in minigames for the in game time

Those aren’t players & you shouldn’t look poorly on PvP clans because of clients like that. That’s a bot farm, not a clan advertising

[latent relic]

Most pkers who client will do auto eats at certain hp levels, auto switches for spec and mage back into tank, overheads. So you can kind of tell that in a certain area they are incredibly fast but overall a bad pker.

[forest kraken]

Surely those players get banned quickly though?

Can’t be hard to detect, surely?

[latent relic]

I've had a lot that I've reported get banned

At least I got the message from jagex

[forest kraken]

Makes no sense why you’d risk a high level account like that for what?

[latent relic]

On pures

[forest kraken]

When you can just learn and practice yourself

[glacial gate]

the high level ones are just bought generally

[verbal ore]

YEAH

[forest kraken]

Yeah makes sense

[latent relic]

I don't really singles pk on my main anymore so haven't seen what it's like these days for mains.

[forest kraken]

Surely if people are going out their way to buy high level accounts to client on then their ip should be easily tracked by jagex and if they’re a repeat offender ip banned. Those people are no good to the game

[tropic root]

I can do wildy altar now because it's so dead, I rarely run into anyone

Plus there's the 1 inventory method

But before I used to never consider it because I would just go there and die.

Can't win with that content lol.

[latent relic]

It's a lot of work and the anti cheat teams been understaffed for years. Jagex has prioritized game breaking bots instead. Like the toa ones etc

[forest kraken]

Yeah that makes sense. Lots of cheaters coming at jagex from every angle

[glacial gate]

v p n

[fervent hornet]

yo anyone got a pure here?

[latent relic]

The best fix is to integrate runelite plugins into the official client and disable any client access outside of the official.

[forest kraken]

Yeah

How you know smashville?

👀

[fervent hornet]

im a clanner haha

[fervent hornet]

bro i been saying this for years

theres so many clients

and ots obv that they wont fix it "too much money"

[forest kraken]

That would be the end goal yeah, I thought that’s where the jagex launcher was going

[glacial gate]

no way you're friends with Ace

[latent relic]

Yeah it's probably their eventual goal

[fervent hornet]

im friends with everyone

OG clanner

[fervent hornet]

na there goal is to keep messing up the wild

i was at lavas yday

6 hours

no one even tried me

i was even afk on my ironman while looking for fights there

killing lavas

[fervent hornet]

ace u mean zerker2012?

i also wish they passed the chiv prayer for pures

but poll got ruined by kids who are scared of pkers

[glacial gate]

thats the homie lol. great guy.

[fervent hornet]

yeah bro ive known him for years

where has he been havent talked to him before he was in the militaryy

[glacial gate]

military yeah. Last i heard he lost track of a tank and aint heard from him since LOL

[fervent hornet]

he lost a tank ?!?!

wtf

bro it would be him to lose a fucking tank lmfao

i remember him as a youngin

funny ass dude

[glacial gate]

absolutely chalked

[fervent hornet]

buddies prob stuck in the brig

whats that tag

deathrow?

[glacial gate]

deathrow yes

[fervent hornet]

ahh i was in dr for abit

i was actually in sinister

then left for dr

but pure scene got me held up

and i run outlaws now

[glacial gate]

a lot of people are into it. hey whatever has content far as i''m concerned.

[fervent hornet]

fr

i am just on the pure these days and ironman since a bunch of the homies been on them

[glacial gate]

maybe we get multi revs and ill see you back in the main scene haha

[fervent hornet]

bro im waiting need it back asap

[winged thorn]

Unpolled integrity changes for wild omg

[fervent hornet]

uhh ohh

its teal

🤝

[winged thorn]

Hi

[fervent hornet]

hello

hows rot treating you big guy

[winged thorn]

Very well, should’ve joined sooner

Now just trying to convince you stinky pures to train def

[fervent hornet]

i should've joined once bark won dmm with them

i still have my main

but i cant leave the homies

[winged thorn]

Pures are ass imo. Pm a1v1 if you ever change your mind

[fervent hornet]

even though alot of the boys are there in rot

[granite sphinx]

https://tenor.com/view/grr-grrr-grrrr-grrrrr-grrrrrr-gif-11468024821216396093

[forest kraken]

Pures on top !!

[latent relic]

Multi revs should be unpolled integrity update

[forest kraken]

FACTS

Multi revs on my chest

[fervent hornet]

fr

[fervent hornet]

for real because everyone will vote no who is a pvm

what is sad to say because i play both sides

i think the none pking scene should be more considerate

instead of killing part of the game

[forest kraken]

Yep agreed but when jagex provide no support, no new content and treat it like they don’t care then you can’t expect the players to be any different

When was the last time we got a good piece of thought out multi content

[fervent hornet]

nothing

since like

the 10s

we almost at 2030 lmfao

it would be cool since they forced sailing

to put a sailing boss in pvp

on an island

[jade ledge]

hi @fervent hornet

😄

[fervent hornet]

hello my friend

[glacial gate]

you think people cry about death mechanics now. wait until we have new ones for boat death mechanics

raggers on rafts

raftgers

[fervent hornet]

bro that would be insane

i am ready

[verbal ore]

i miss when your stuff just immediately hit the ground and people could take it right away tbh

leading noobs to the dark wizards was profit

[wide crater]

Lololol we gonna get pirate cosplay clans

[glacial gate]

gear up in crystal bowts

[glacial gate]

bruh i got tricked into venoming myself on karamja and lost my rune platebody

it was tragic

[fervent hornet]

imagine just seeing the pk vids on boats lmfaooo

[verbal ore]

canon event

i lost a set of mith to karamja spider poison

[jade ledge]

you're halfway there (20 - 30 def "super pures")

[fervent hornet]

hahahaha

[jade ledge]

Yeah I get mixed feelings when I see a cb 100'ish with 20+ def but 99 atk and 99 prayer

[fervent hornet]

1 def on top

if your a pure stay 1 def

[jade ledge]

correction 20+ def*

[verbal ore]

50def is the meta rn no? for bloodmoon or w.e

[jade ledge]

idk, clanner @fervent hornet could tell more

[verbal ore]

i miss when zerkers were the it thing

they looked cool

[jade ledge]

https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/1eykcpv/imagine_losing_control_of_your_ship_because/

[fervent hornet]

na zerk scene dead also

[tropic root]

LOL

That's when we're going to learn the new spell "Ice Burg"

Just freeze up some water in front of their ship and make them the titanic if they can't maneuver around it

[latent relic]

50 def gets bullied by 60 att meds or range tanks

[winged thorn]

Maybe not for clanning, but for BH yeah

Clanning & BH accs will always be widely different

For example my 25 def pure is in the perfect cb zone to be railed by these 50 def zerks at BH

But in wildy in multi, it doesn’t matter

[tropic root]

Bro where was this guy in the PvP discord lol

https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/wnnk66/reimagining_the_wilderness_experience_a_holistic/

I love a lot of this guy's ideas

He had the same idea as me with Wildy Teams lol

[winged thorn]

Can definitely tell it’s 3 yrs old

Imagine if they had implemented the altar changes. One of the last few active multi spots would be dead l0l

[inner dew]

this is just double speak

goes on to say the game should cater towards ironmen, bleh

not going to come up with good pvp ideas if ur premise is the game should revolve around non-pvp accounts

[winged thorn]

I noticed that too

[inner dew]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1126857544523063367/1482761930853711943/19ed9e30.png?ex=69bac428&is=69b972a8&hm=7094639b91eacb803778cb00c1b93969146684f985f03a18eb78621b83aeaa6c&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=1089&height=1098

[tropic root]

Is it active? I've been using it lately because it's so dead

Not that I particularly agree with the Altar part of his proposals

I didn't see a problem with the etherium stuff or the forinthry gate stuff though

[inner dew]

bumped this thread with some ideas how anti freeze might fit without being super overpowered https://discord.com/channels/324132423636090880/1262789432407232523

[tropic root]

People have summized based on certain poll data, apparently, that ironmen are around 30% of the playerbase.

This is no longer a small number in 200k online.

I agree they shouldn't be handheld for updates, but I don't think they should be completely ignored either

Especially when Jagex is concerned with pvp being able to pass polls

Although I missed in that guy's post where he said ironmen need to be catered to

[inner dew]

they dont usually say it directly but its fairly obvious when they mention unlocks like dragon pickaxe

voidwaker etc

[tropic root]

Oh yea that post is probably before dpick was made available outside the wildy

I see that less as an ironman thing and more as the sentiment of wanting certain things to feel more like they come from the part of the game they're more meant for

I'm kind of in the middle of agreeing/disagreeing with that kinda stance

[inner dew]

i think ideally ironman would just be a separate world so it can have a proper ruleset like deadman/leagues etc

it sounds like actual nightmare fuel for devs to have to juggle multiple things in the main game

[tropic root]

I don't like the idea of too many separate rules and exceptions on separate worlds, prefer if a global rule is made that works

[inner dew]

it just creates more and more work for devs to have to make a "fits all" solution for every piece of content

and limits their creativity for both the main accs and restricted accs gameplay

[halcyon kraken]

got absolutely smashed at spindel time to make a reddit post about removing pvp

[tropic root]

Yea it certainly feels that way with the need to fit everyone's wishes. I really blame the polls for that.

You see that manifests in everytime they try to make a new weapon or armor and it needs to fit the niche in-between not devaluing but also not powercreeping anything else in existence

[tropic root]

Now I kinda agree there is still a place in the Wildy for people who aren't truly interested in PvP, with the hunt/chase gameplay

But does that really discredit the actual value behind his concepts?

I'm curious on thoughts about the Forinthry gates for example - that addresses a problem I've even been seeing some PKers bring up about how the wilderness revolves around just logging out and hopping all the time.

I liked the whole Blighted Impling thing too, plus the decoy bead thing gives an interesting option to a "PvMer" trying to escape

That post is old and afaik the necklace of greed thing actually became a thing as the amulet of avarice didn't it? Would more uses for etherium really be that bad?

---

Or rather, I can't understand how that's double speak.

No matter what change you make to the wilderness, isn't it going to relate to non-PvP accounts somehow? Because either you are basing it on PvP accounts (thereby excluding non-PvP accounts which is basing it around them), or you are basing it on non-PvP stuff like PvM (thus basing it on non-PvP accounts) or you are basing on both (therefore also basing on non-PvP accounts).

Feels kinda like words are being twisted.

[inner dew]

my issue is with ppl who step into the wilderness, unprepared to fight anybody, and then blaming the wilderness instead of themselves

[tropic root]

The guy who made that post does not sound like someone who is unprepared to fight anybody

Rather his ideas are geared towards encouraging and enabling more fights and anti-PKing and stuff

What's wrong with that?

[inner dew]

because its a terrible mindset to have, pic related, to try and split the playerbase as if 'non-pvpers' are somehow incapable of pvp and should not even try to interact with it.

but maybe its just poor wording, idk the OP.

[karmic meteor]

Thoughts?

[inner dew]

ragging as a rule doesnt really make any sense but jagex has a history of not rlly having sensible rules

yes something is annoying but if its not actually a bug or exploit or cheat i dont see how it could be ban worthy

its like when they thought they could enforce muling in DMM by bans. and also boxing. rather than have mechanics in place, which would be a proper solution

[jade ledge]

You wrote this at 04:20 is what makes this extra funny

[tropic root]

I can agree there, I am more looking at which of his ideas which are great for either pvm or pvper, and the gameplay in general

I mean, half of his ideas are still skilling things and so technically would still make sense for non-pvpers as a money maker and skilling method lol

Just maybe not as much for the non pvp ironman when it comes to just mining etherium

I actually want to contact that guy and maybe convince him the non-pvper has a place too

[tropic root]

I thought it already actually became a bannable offense

I don't remember where I heard that

[inner dew]

theres some good ideas, some items prob imbalanced. the gates to worldhop would just annoy ppl, since you would still need to worldhop unless they also reduce world numbers.

[inner dew]

not sure how its enforced, might just be streamer privilege thing that they can report ppl lol

[tropic root]

I was thinking that about the worldhop too

Though that solution fits very well with my idea of wilderness activity listing

Which is another idea that is theoretically ruined by clans existing

[inner dew]

activity per world?

[tropic root]

#pvp-discussion message

Ye

I don't really think clans would ruin it but that was a concern some of the others here brought up

I'd rather try and see! It's all theory after all.

[inner dew]

yeah heat maps are super effective, its in a pvp mmo i used to play

but still need wider changes for it to matter

[tropic root]

Exactly

Good talk, cya later g2g

[inner dew]

venoming lmao

would make a sick montage with eminem venom soundtrack

[brazen fox]

[inner dew]

😭

[tropic root]

Which one?

[brazen fox]

This one

I mean honestly I don’t rly get the whole forced into the wilderness thing

The biggest thing is chaos altar I think

Clues very very briefly

But apart from that u can def play without entering the wildy

[karmic meteor]

Oh no, i don’t think that the role fits my type of game play

[brazen fox]

Esp as iron, vw is good but its not amazing, and u prob want rev weapons to do it, so hella not worth the hours spent if u dont enjoy

Chaos altar a diff story tho

Half the amount of bones collected and half the amount of gp spent on prayer

And tbf chaos altar does feel really bad

[tropic root]

It's strong and risk free

[brazen fox]

It’s not like revs where u just lose 1-2 slots but can anti pk ez

[tropic root]

As the guy benefitting from Wildy Altar I felt it was great... for me

And probably really pointless for the guy trying to pk me before I used my inventory of bones

But also there's hardly any pkers there

When I saw it's half the cost plus risk free death method

I was like, how could I not do this

[brazen fox]

Ye exactly, it’s the only case ur legit forced bcos it’s insane not to

[tropic root]

It even beats ectofuntus on gp efficiency

[brazen fox]

And u can almost always use all ur bones before u die

[tropic root]

Ecto is 4x, Wildy Altar is theoretical 7x

[brazen fox]

But it does put u in that “helpless vs pkers” mindset which ig is my criticism

[tropic root]

I had that same thought when I tried it

[brazen fox]

Bcos ur not gna fight back and it feels almost petty cuz ur dying for 0-4000 gp

[tropic root]

Like if I wanted to anti pk doing that, what... would I do with an inventory full of bones lol

Plus I have to focus on spam clicking to use it the best way

[brazen fox]

Ye it’s prob not a great 1st exposure bcos it doesn’t get u thinking about hitting back but there’s no real risk to it

Idk what the guy means by revs changes to make them actually optional

They’re the most optional thing in the game

[plucky flint]

The whole wildy is optional people are just to greedy with what the wildy offers and want the extra reward risk free

[brazen fox]

Ye I was hella avoiding the wildy on all my accs for the longest time

Didn’t really feel I was missing anything

[forest kraken]

Depends on how you see optional

All 3 rev weapons have uses in and out the wildy

Especially webweaver

Maybe if you’re just starting you’re not going to prioritise it over CG or slayer

But it’s definitely a good side grind later into an account

[forest kraken]

I wouldn’t say it’s super worth for a normal account

Irons sure, but for a normie you can train prayer in down time and spend the active time you have making way better gp than you’d be saving using your active time to go to chaos altar

I could max prayer in 0 hours at work whereas sending Toa or tob in making 10m+ per hour

[tropic root]

I'm a normal account, I did it because it's super worth lol, only 2m on bones compared to 5m, I'm not progressed enough in-game to do raids yet

[forest kraken]

Again though, probably better off spending your active time progressing your account to do high level content rather than using it up doing something that should be fully afk

But ofc it’s up to you how you play

[tropic root]

I do progress my account lol

[forest kraken]

That just makes the most sense to me

For irons it’s a bit different because we have to manually farm all our bones, which is time time consuming part, so it makes no sense to double that time when we could go to chaos altar

[tropic root]

do PoH altars let you do the tick-spamming bone offering like the Wildy one does?

I forget

[forest kraken]

Yeah you can do that

[grizzled lion]

how do i get into pvp or how do i prepare myself for pvp? im new to this game so i dont really know what im doing still :]

i'm combat level 61

[thick rover]

Lms is one way

If you're new to the game itself honestly you might want to pvm to get used to the basics

A lot of pvm skills are transferrable to pvp

[grizzled lion]

understood!!

should i try and get fighter torso asap also?

[thick rover]

Torso's a good item sure but not really something you need to rush

[granite sphinx]

not necessarily, one of the most important steps is to mentally prepare yourself. PVP in the game is extremely complex and will take time to learn. LMS definitely your best bet for getting your feet wet once you have some idea of basicaly game mechanics from pvm

[grizzled lion]

🙂‍↕️

[winged thorn]

Make goals for an acc build you’d like to create. Having a viable pk acc may take a long time. Don’t get discouraged if you decide to pk before optimizing your acc

[thick rover]

Over time you'll want to familiarise yourself with concepts such as movement/tiles, ticks, gear and prayer switches, healing, etc etc

Lots of stuff but they'll come to you as you play

[brazen fox]

Some good advice so far
I’d also say try not to get discouraged, it’s very difficult content but incredibly rewarding. Don’t be afraid to reach out to others for help as well

[grizzled lion]

is there a certain point where pk becomes very prevalent or pointless? my account isnt really planned to be a pvp one (like a pure build or sumn) so i dont know if i need to do x or y

[tropic root]

I'd say PvP is entirely up to you to do for fun!

There is nothing in the game that explicitly requires you to kill other players regularly, though there are some where you will traverse the Wilderness (the biggest PvP area)

[grizzled lion]

that makes sense. should i always be overprepared for wilderness adventures? or is it better to just not bring anything i dont want to lose?

[tropic root]

Probably better not to bring stuff you don't want to lose, unless you're confident you can hold yourself in a real fight

You can also do muuuuch more casual PvP at minigames like Castle Wars and Soul Wars where you can try out whatever equipment you have and see how strong or weak you are

There's no pressure on those minigames because you have no risk of losing your items

LMS isn't something I'd say is good for a very fresh beginner haha, people are using the highest skill techniques there all the time. When you're ready to level up more though, check it out.

[grizzled lion]

noted!!!! i was thinking of trying out castle wars soon too so :]

[wide crater]

Tbh theres a lot of videos that cover some basic mechanics, but im also sure if you have any friends that always pvp they can go to white portal and actually show you how to do some of the stuff, thats how i learned how to dd correctly, seeding, etc

[thick rover]

yeah definitely helps a lot if you have someone to friendly 1v1 for a bit and try all the stuff out

[fast cradle]

also depends if people wanna 1v1 edge style or hybrid

[fast cradle]

watching video's analysing what they're doing, odablok would be a good example because he perfects it 1v1 or hybrid

also practice

teaches you to 1tick switches and prayer

LMS would be a good start for sure

over time you'll only get better by fighting better people though

they'll make you think differently as they have unique styles

for example I used to hybrid fight people in pvp, some people wanted to be on top of you melee heavy hidden by fake switches

others liked to hug

others liked to fake switch into bolting you

[fringe fjord]

pvp is pointless on a main account until you're like 110 combat.

you will have a disavantage against pretty much everyone until that point

you can do lms however.

anything that doesn't use your actual stts

[tropic root]

nah you don't gotta be that high combat to do something casual like Castle Wars or Soul Wars

but yea lower the level more the disadvantage

[winged thorn]

Don’t feed the trolls

[brazen fox]

My boy nan beat him on track nh staking :p

Wildy he a diff beast tho

[wide crater]

Cb level doesnr matter as long ad the stats are allocated in the right place. I can pretty consistently beat 126s on my 107 med. granted theyre shitters, the ones that are really good youll still have disadvantages anyway even when youre maxed

[fast frost]

Been looking for people who wanna pk at ven, vet, callisto add me and we can go together

[minor aspen]

What type of account? Main or pure? I’d go sometime but im addicted to ‘slay the spire 2’ rn

[astral coral]

107 life best life

[wide crater]

Idk i def like the fights but my max main is my fav lmao

[open grove]

imo lower is always better

especially if you have interest in stuff like bh so ur not getting thrust against max cmb monsters

[wide crater]

Idk, i see points from both sides. Pures can use same weapons and with 1 def you cant afford the same mistakes you can with 99. But you can also camp low level wildy for closer levels and ez teles

[fringe fjord]

he's already playing his account as if it's a main

chances are he's already trained defence

that basically means any build below 42 is already not possible anymore

chances are he's trained attack

[fast frost]

im on a main, i like slay the spire 2 as well

anyone wanna do a from scratch pk run start at like zombie pirates then altar then ven

[whole grove]

Do we have a real 1def or 13def MAX pure mains in here that can share some words of wisdom with me?

I know 13def isn’t good for PVP, but just how exactly bad is it

[open grove]

i think up to 70-75 is fine

[minor aspen]

If i look up your stats and i see 13 defense i will look at you with a look of superiority, as 1 def 😎 it’s that bad

Also you won’t be able to get the 1 def badge when jagex comes out with it

[wide crater]

Hahaha i have a 1 def AND 13 def for exactly that reason

[whole grove]

is this a real thing

[whole grove]

tell me how it is, is the difference real and felt?

do you also have a main?

[wide crater]

Not really imo, until you start fighting outside your bracket. All the damage they do you also do. But yes I use my main