🤔｜theories

[azure bay]

By, for example, sending Bob to the PD

[hollow igloo]

I was thinking exactly the same thing

We all know that Owl is a master planner

[digital oriole]

Who are we playing as in Cube Escape: The Lake?

[sage token]

Laura, I believe

[late canyon]

Can confirm ^

[digital oriole]

How does that tie into the whole narrative?

[ebon aspen]

laura dumped bob bc of everything concerning her and went to mh&f to receive treatment

and well, yk what happens on rl

[azure bay]

I'm sure we don't know the whole truth

I don't clearly see a reason on Owl's behalf to organise this trip

At least until we see him doing something to her in a mental institute

Funny enough

We have whole 2 games to fill this gap but the gap between 1964 and 1971 which are so early and detached they effectively don't fill much

Hmm

It's a nice idea to try gather and analyse all the info we have so far

[digital oriole]

this is so confusing 🥴
I always interpreted that Laura committed suicide and her corpse was brought to the lake for memory extraction
but I suppose...that conflicts with other portions of the narrative

[ebon aspen]

If you meant laura's, then ig her being a reborn vanderboom is a big reason itself, and her memories play a big role in the plot after all
I dont remember much of c23 and the mill quotes, but im pretty sure that crow was making big moves, and well, laura was carrying his brother's soul

Aldous seemed to be really interested in spying over his descendants, so it wouldnt be a surprise if he was behind that whole thing

I think i said it here sometime, but the c23 crime looked more like a murder than suicide, or at least someone went to laura's bf dale

[digital oriole]

Isn't he spying over his descendants in order to make sure they consecrate all the necessary sacrifices?

[ebon aspen]

Primarily yeah, but after roots ended he could have continued doing it, even more considering that the sacrifices were made so william could exit the corrupted state (and we play as him, so he was conducting all that stuff in the first place)
So my guess is that aldous still wanted to do smth with his brother's soul
If this smth is good or bad, that i cant say for sure bc its aldous we are talking about XD

And laura died after going to the lake, so crow and/or owl can have some interference in everything that happened afterwards

[azure bay]

yeah, but inviting her to simply stay at the lake for a while seems useless

[azure bay]

since when do they need someone at the lake to spy on?

[ebon aspen]

Better surveilance + the chance to experiment on her

[azure bay]

I mean they can and likely did spy on her, Bob and Dale in their city

[ebon aspen]

Its really unlikely that she went to the lake just for vacations

Crow and owl must have a deeper reason for inviting her

[azure bay]

that's my point

and I can't understand that reason

[ebon aspen]

Well, while on the lake, laura:
Fished a corrupted body
Summoned smth i dont recall what was with that tree
Had a good time with harvey

So as i said bf, my guess is that they were trying to induce trauma so she could do what she did

She was already experiencing shit bf going to the lake, so there prolly was some induction to the trauma induction itself bf too

[azure bay]

ok, this branch of possibilities seems ok for now

in case Laura was the one to commit suicide that is

[ebon aspen]

Theres a possibility that william's remnants were "pushing" laura to meet her fate, but im more fond of the idea of interference from crow or owl

[azure bay]

there are more

but, stopping on William, it'd be stupid of him to ruin his own project that required so much efford

I've proposed a theory of paradox in the reality

the usual question I ask is Why is Paradox called such?

any ideas btw?

[ebon aspen]

Well, the common meaning is smth that no matter what you do, it just contradicts itself, leading to a logical cycle that has no definitive answer

As for the game, i think the name lies more in the endings, since dale apparently plays 2 roles at the same time

[azure bay]

pretty much yeah

and I reckon this paradox might not have been limited to Dale's mind

a corrupted Dale from the future could do the pushing for Laura so present Dale starts his investigation

I find this pov interesting and worthy to further develop

for example, by justifying Laura's trip in different way

[ebon aspen]

Considering the cs ending, it wouldnt happen if dale didnt had smth to do with her death besides investigating her house

Could it be an implanted fake memory or a metaphor? Its a possibility

But just dropping the "dale killed laura" stuff just bc doesnt seem to fit

And yeah, him being somehow involved would imply time travel (that basically would imply that another paradox)

And since time travel always rubs me the wrong way, im out XD

[azure bay]

that's what I mean by paradox in the reality since the Paradox game is in Dale's mind

[azure bay]

remind me plz do you have any explanation for a CS in Rabbit's window?

[ebon aspen]

Its not that i disagree time travel is a thing in the series, its just i get too confused with it

The 2 rabbits prolly were a time travel consequence too

[azure bay]

you know what?

I think I can imagine reasons to connect Laura to the machinery while she's still alive

after all they needed her memories because of William's elixir formula hidden among them

it just has to fail in some way

[ebon aspen]

My memo is foggy and i need to play the games again, but didnt jakob and crow know the formula?

Oops forgot timeline

But the former knew the basics and the latter was together with william

[azure bay]

in The Cave they have to make literally shitty extract from the dog that drank the elixir once

that doesn't look like they have the formula

[ebon aspen]

Nvm the cave, it happened after they messed with laura's memories
But if they really needed to scan her brain, then she could be either dead or alive i think, since the memories are carried by the soul
And tbh i dont see she being alive or not affecting the final result of they making the elixir in the end

[azure bay]

that could be the reason they failed

or alternatively we have TWD

(thx)

[hollow igloo]

I think that it is all a plan to have:
-Laura’s memories that contain the elixir’s original formula (discovered by William);
-get her corrupted, as the elixir needs someone to become a CS;
-make Dale reach the lake through Laura’s death and Case23;
-Get the blue cube from Dale (maybe through his interaction with his memories, like the Birthday one);
-get him enlightened with the thus created full elixir;
-have a new ruler of the lake, with a newfound power.

The “paradox” is that Dale is the one that “kills” Laura even before knowing her. Even though she was already fragile, being attacked by the CS was the thing that broke her the most, leading her to suicide. So metaphorically the CS killed her. That soul was most likely Dale’s, materialised by the Lake in the past. This was necessary to start the chain of events that brought to all that I said above.

[azure bay]

2. CS being required for the elixir is debatable
3. the blue cube is not connected to Dale in the book and in the reality it was taken directly from the lake

[hollow igloo]

Probably I forgot the page of the book, I thought it was linked to Dale

Anyways, remove that part and it could make sense

Even if she wasn’t necessary for her to be corrupted, maybe she needed to be dead

The plan could still work

[azure bay]

well, her death wasn't necessary for the ritual

it could be necessary for something else

originally we've seen the elixir working with 2 living creatures

twice

and only Caroline set the precedent

[sage token]

The elixir worked with the doggo

[hollow igloo]

“One of us will die, the other will be enlightened”
I think that someone had to die either way. Plus, her death is why Dale reached the lake in the first place

[hollow igloo]

Yes, but James died immediately after

[sage token]

I'm not saying he didn't

[hollow igloo]

Maybe in the ritual someone had to die, but not in a specific order and not in the same exact time.

[azure bay]

I'd say that Owl seemed to have recently discovered the right person, according to his letter, but we don't know when exactly it was written

[azure bay]

I repeat that Laura's death wasn't necessary for ritual preparation. There's a difference between 'can' and 'have to'

oh

[azure bay]

Right! he was referring to the cube test which indicates the letter being pretty recent

so killing Laura that took place many months before wasn't likely for luring Dale

unless...

the letter was present in 1971

despite referring to 1972

on the other hand, it being hidden under the photo and being kept on a wall makes no sense

so it could be just an exposition instrument with no physical presence on the sight

[hollow igloo]

I get what you mean, but I think that the elixir needs someone to die. It’s written everywhere in Roots (in that case, it is called “Elixir of life and death”) and every time we see the elixir work someone dies (in order: Caroline, William, James, Laura), so I think this might be a general rule of the elixir. I also think that someone has to become corrupted, mainly because except for James all of the sacrifices get corrupted somehow. But again, James’ elixir is somehow different, maybe it was defective since James created it, and he most likely was not an alchemist, or because it doesn’t work with animals the same way it does with humans.

Regarding the letter, referring to Dale’s test does not mean that the letter is recent. Maybe the test was planned all along many years before

Or maybe Owl was already observing Dale even before he sent the letter

[azure bay]

1. Laura didn't have to die or get corrupted BEFORE drinking. She could stay alive and everything would still work.

2. Owl and Crow both use fruits of James' experiment. It's not that likely to be flawed.

[hollow igloo]

Maybe it was not completely flawed, James still copied their formula. Or maybe it’s just the second option, it doesn’t work with animals the same way.

[azure bay]

Btw

In what exactly way it would be flawed?

Not leaving a CS (which is yet trully unknown about James) is rather a progress

[hollow igloo]

This is an interesting point lmao

But the dog didn’t get enlightened I guess

Let’s say it may be a “different” elixir

[azure bay]

I have a theory on how state of consciousness defines elixir effects

[hollow igloo]

Seems reasonable

[azure bay]

Animals have no consciousness therefore they don't get enlightenment

Humans are so they become asuras

Dale is being set to a higher state during his trip. He overcomes his fears and learns about the universe. I thnk that's why he's destined to become deva

[hollow igloo]

This seems a pretty logical theory

[azure bay]

Or it all could be a coinsidence

[hollow igloo]

It could be, maybe we will never know for sure

But anyways it makes sense

[azure bay]

Another popular theory is Dale just having cooler elixir

[hollow igloo]

Well, it is called “the full elixir” for some reasons I guess

[azure bay]

The thing is

Owl mentions some full elixir while having just an extract of lower concentration

It could mean that any elixir of higher concentration is full

[hollow igloo]

Could be

But this time the elixir is a cube. It’s somehow a “perfect” shape. Maybe it is somehow the culmination of everything Owl studied in a couple of centuries.

Who knows really

[azure bay]

Caroline's formula is also seemingly meant to result into a cube

[hollow igloo]

I’d associate that formula to a sort of “full” elixir too, or maybe something very close to it

[azure bay]

It's literally the fomula Caroline used in the ending

[hollow igloo]

And in fact Owl is more powerful than any other Asura

[hollow igloo]

Yeah I was saying that

[azure bay]

I don't think Owl's powers are due to a better drink he got

We have asuras with some powers

We have with none

[hollow igloo]

We have some humans with powers too

It could just be a coincidence

[sage token]

Rusty Lake knows

[azure bay]

I tend to see the lake as a source of Owl's powers, hense the ruler of the lake

[hollow igloo]

I agree with you on that

It’s the combination of multiple factors probably

[azure bay]

It's mathematically less probable than these factors on their own

[hollow igloo]

What do you mean by that?

I don’t know if I got what you say

[azure bay]

The probability of the event A happening or the one of the event B is always higher than the probability of both at the same time

[hollow igloo]

If they are independent events, yes

[azure bay]

having a better drink and getting powers from the lake seem pretty independent for me

Another thing is, if Dale gets the coolest elixir in the book why does he have to take such a journey while Owl was just chilling at his time?

[hollow igloo]

What I was saying is that maybe the effects of the two things are cumulative in some way. I agree with you that is less probable to get at that point, but assuming that he did, probability calculus is somehow useless. Also, Caroline somehow most likely guided this process in some way.

[hollow igloo]

Probably because consciousness is important as you were saying

Dale is more prepared to become the ruler of the lake than Jakob ever was.

I’m not saying that a better elixir is sufficient, but maybe is necessary to an extent. We don’t know really.

[jaunty junco]

okay i just finished replaying paradise and i saw this

and now im so confused because i know the full timeline and history of everything but i didn't know laura was connected to the elianders

does anyone have a theory or did i miss some parts of the history?

[ebon aspen]

well, unless some plot twist happens in future games, the only connection between laura (and dale) with the eilanders is that everyone plays some role in the lake stuff

[jaunty junco]

ohh

[hollow quartz]

And let’s be fair, that’s more than probable. The game series is called rusty lake.

[azure bay]

I think this isn't about family connection but rather about generational inheritance

This is just a half of the message

The other half goes into Paradox

By using the same mask Dale sees the previous generation of the ruler and a sacrifice that led him to ascension

And Jacob sees the next one

[hollow quartz]

Yh. I don’t think it’s about actual blood relation (bit confusing, considering so much of the interactions are blood-related), it’s more about right time, right place.

[azure bay]

However, there's a set of theories that relate everyone

Vanderbooms to Eilanders and Vandermeers to Vanderbooms

[hollow quartz]

Not really surprising. The lore behind this game is deep, and there are a lot of people trying to figure it out.

[azure bay]

I personally don't want Dale to be special by the birthright

A trope of a random chosen one is more interesting

[hollow quartz]

yh. He’s one of my favourite characters so it would be awesome for home to just be a ‘random’ chance. Lucky me.

[cerulean crypt]

What actualy Mr.Owl need cubes for in Hotel

[delicate atlas]

To feed the lake probably

And I have a feeling he was more after revenge rather than the cubes

[azure bay]

He wanted to see the future

His successor taking a ride to the hotel

For some reason, the guests have provided that future memory

[covert wyvern]

@candid holly one channel at a time is enough, thank you. I'm leaving the one in #🎨｜fan-creations up.

[candid holly]

Can we at least leave here a link to the #🎨｜fan-creations post? I'd really want to start a discussion here

[covert wyvern]

If it's discussion you seek repost it here and remove the fan creations one

You get one. Take your pick

[candid holly]

Hi! Here's a big project we've been working for a while :
https://miro.com/app/board/uXjVOYVVWdg=/?invite_link_id=547590451801
It's a theory mind map. Currently it covers just the original Samsara Room but we're planning to do The Lake next. We'd really appreciate some feedback so it's more clear and user-friendly.

In case you are using a mobile device, an app is required

[covert wyvern]

A quick decision, thank you

[candid holly]

Here are some screenshots so you guys get the idea:

[ebon aspen]

The theory is more about the "place" that samsara room is?

Interesting

[candid holly]

The screenshot is just a little fraction of questions the map intends to answer

[azure bay]

#📯｜rl-announcements message
is it a hidden message or something?

[high talon]

a good idea lmao i examined it closely n the only thing that caught my eye was the moth thingy

[azure bay]

The moth seems to be just Dale's old test

or at least a reference to such

[high talon]

mmm maybe but i feel like we could see the paradox room

[azure bay]

I doubt it, unless we return into Dale's head which is unlikely

[high talon]

who says its only made for Dale tho?

[azure bay]

we could get a similar experience from someone else

[azure bay]

the moth is symbolically connected to Dale as a creature naturally reaching to the light after rebirth

[high talon]

Yeah but we could also "argue" that Albert wants to be reborn too

[azure bay]

in one way or another yes, we're just unsure in which one

I'm more interested if we're getting this 2022 number in the actual game or it's just a stylized reminder

[high talon]

i think thats just a slight hint of "its dropping this year"

but yeah the moth could be symbolism for many people being connected

[hasty marsh]

Mr Crow is ness

[azure bay]

The moth is more about enlightenment. That's currently Dale's thing

[quick marsh]

Idk if this is the place for this but where do you recommend one start to learn the overarching story?

[covert wyvern]

Feel free to ask questions here, there's some bigger threads on the subreddit and also come up with your own! By playing the games you should b able to piece some things together

[manic cedar]

The official timeline clears things up a lot, it’s somewhere on the wiki

[azure bay]

it doesn't do that much, because it lacks more than 1/3 of games

the full one you're probably talking about was made by a certain theorist

[fluid maple]

I've been meaning to ask, does anyone have any good videos or guides on the lore of rusty lake? I really want to know about the lore but I'm not really smart enough to figure it out myself ^^;;;;

[covert wyvern]

uh well guide wise the lake devotees are working on something pretty massive

plus, I once again would refer you to the more extended posts on the reddit

there's alwyas juse the option to browse this channel, look for some keywords w/ the search function and see what convos you can dig up

videowsie I dont really have any advice.

[ebon aspen]

summons mat pat
But seriously, i think i never saw a really good video comprising the rl lore?
I mean, i find discussing the lore and theorizing here (and reddit prolly is a good place too) more productive since it wont present a closed hypothesis

And well, since the series havent finished yet, trying to make a final statement about the games seems kinda meh for me, so personally i avoid looking for stuff that claims to cover everything

[azure bay]

RazzJazz has some good videos doesn't he?

and Mat Pat has a reputation of misrepresenting existing theories

[ebon aspen]

I havent watched his videos that much, but iirc theyre more timeline-wise instead of trying to make a full-series theory

So ig theyre fine in my book XD

My issue is trying to explain everything while we dont have everything

Ik theories are all about this but dunno, some very important details are yet to be seen in the games

[azure bay]

I suppose we'll never have everything

[ebon aspen]

Thats a very high possibility
But i do prefer analyzing things after theyre completed
Even not knowing everything (and thats fair and very nice so the players can take multiple conclusions) im sure the next games will contain very important details

[manic cedar]

Wait, you’re telling me these aren’t official?

[azure bay]

the last 2 aren't

[floral mauve]

the first one is

or first two

[fluid maple]

Wow! That's insane

[vapid portal]

idk if this goes in here but

does this lead to anything

[covert wyvern]

I mean one could assume this is an adress and zip code

the sad part, however, is that paradox likely plays out in Dales mind and I would take anything seen here as just things inside Dales brain.

[floral mauve]

yes

It could be random twisted stuff all together

[ebon aspen]

The only thing i can think of ia that mh&f is located on the old grounds of the vanderboom house

[sage token]

What if Dale is not only reliving his memories, but those of many people whose memories are in the Lake? Every Cube Escape game, if not every Rusty Lake game, could be Dale's journey through memories. It would maybe explain Arles. It doesn't have much connection to the other games, aside from the painting of the bedroom. But if Van Gogh's memory was in the Lake, Dale could be reliving that.

[ebon aspen]

But ye, dale mind could be going brrr

[covert wyvern]

I think that's a really interesting take, actually.

perhaps all CE games are simply ascended dale TM just sorta peaking at the memories of laura

why? could be anything, closure, curiosity, boredom

I like the angle though.

[sage token]

I wasn't thinking that it was ascended Dale, but that's also a possibility 🤔

[real lantern]

This kinda reminds me of TWD, with the nurse asking you where you worked and stuff

[covert wyvern]

ha fiar! sorry for twisting ur view

[sage token]

All good lol

[azure bay]

Many including me tend to think that it's the hotel.

1. Boar were invited specifically there to check out their fishing facilities. Notably, it took place while Vanderbooms were still residing in proximity.
2. In Paradox ch2 Dale gets a flyer of "Mr. Owl's Mental Health & Hotel" further implying Hotel also working as a mental health institute

[azure bay]

to be precise, that would be Dale looking through Laura's memories of her looking through her memories

[covert wyvern]

Lmao sure why not

[azure bay]

Memoryception ~~~~(°ω°)~~~~

[floral mauve]

Then that would be Dale’s memory when the player plays it

The forbidden loop

[slim cove]

I just finished playing The Mill and this is brilliant! Based on what Mr. Owl and Mr. Crow said, it seems like Dale’s skills as a detective might be being put to use and his memories were fed to the lake for the purpose of cleaning it up and putting all of the bad/troubled spirits to rest? Like he’s some sort of lake-specific chosen one?

[covert wyvern]

I mean I do think dale's some sort of chosen one, assumigny ou're playing the games in order atm that'll come up again later.

I won't spoil any surprises

I like your way of thinking, though, using Dale's memories to put the spirits to rest. I'm unsure, however, if his memories ever get harvested.

[azure bay]

They were somewhat extracted when he entered the lake.

In that way he could enter them

But, I reckon, they will return to him as soon as he leaves the water

[covert wyvern]

o ye good point.

[azure bay]

Can you keep us in a current about you completing games? With theories.
The next one is Rusty Lake Hotel, in case you're following just CE Collection

[slim cove]

I am all out of order. I’m currently playing CE collection and thought I was done all of them after The Mill (because I played them outside of the collection just on a whim) but I realize that I haven’t played The Cave. And also that playing them in order makes them make more sense lol. May replay Rusty Lake Hotel then. Thanks!!

[azure bay]

What other games have you played?

[slim cove]

I played them… I think a year ago? So I’m jumping into theorizing way too fast but. Roots, hotel, paradox, paradise, Samsara, TWD, The Past Within (I think but I don’t remember 100%). And then now all the cube escape games minus the Cave

[slim cove]

I started replaying because I was recommended “The Alchemist” which I was trying to fit into the Rusty Lake Canon until I realized it was a separate game entirely haha

[azure bay]

The Past Within isn't out yet.

What about other games, I'm interested not only in new ideas but also in their evolution with every new game beaten

If you have atleast approximate understanding of the main plot and the supporting ones, I'd gladly hear you out before you change your views

[slim cove]

I'm hoping to theorize as I go and that's why I jumped on here! Right now my working assumption is that the lake is some sort of being/entity that feeds on memories, and in exchange it grants its caretakers a form of immortality (and/or wealth & power). My general guess is that the humans involved are more servants of the lake than beneficiaries of the entirety of the lake's power, and are often corrupted/harmed by the lake itself. The concept of it being a mental health retreat I was thinking... it would probably be useful to have victims who either wouldn't be missed/ would be suspected of wandering off/ whose perception of reality is already in question. The thing that gets me currently is that in The Mill they say that bad memories aren't want they want, so that seems to contradict my original assumption. It's possible that the mental health facility is used to try and separate good and bad memories so that they can feed only the good memories to the lake?

I was also under the impression that the animal-headed creatures are just humans and their animal heads are part of the reality distortion and/or are metaphorical? But they may just have animal heads. It is a magic lake, after all.

But yeah, I'm refreshing my memory as I go. I meant to do all of them before peaking at the theories but my curiosity got the better of me and now I think I want to read theories as I work through the games! Just so I'm not missing anything!

[azure bay]

For now I won't correct you on anything but The Mill. I'm sure, the lake requires all the memories including the dark ones. The only problem they cause is soul corruption when uncarefull

[slim cove]

Oh yeah! That makes sense! Cool!

[floral mauve]

In my opinion, and according what Mr.Owl said, the lake wants fresh memories. Therefore, the white cubes are the best since they seem to have no side effects but its more rare than black cubes because happiness in RL universe is significantly less than pain and suffering.
However, the black cube still counts as fresh memories despite of causing corruption, it still satisfies the lake

I often compare them with energy, white cubes are like solar energy with no pollution but its hard to be sustainable, whereas other combustibles are like black cubes, which cause pollution.

[high talon]

more of a headcanon than a theory but idk where else it wouldve fit (sorry in advance) but what if corrupted souls/asuras are forced to relieve their past live and said sins of their past lives over and over again in a loop

[ebon aspen]

diavolo screams
I think the samsara stages take care of it, after all you have to "balance the substances of past lives" in order to enlighten
The idea of a type of purgatory to relive the bad stuff from the past kinda doesnt fit in the samsara concept (at least not in the samsara presented in the games)

[high talon]

who says they are all reborn tho?

some poor soul could be stuck in a endless loop (ie:the ones stuck in the lake)

[ebon aspen]

Ooh, i got it now
Being a corrupted soul means having to remember bad memories all the times huh?
Iirc almost every corrupted soul weve seen had their black cubes removed, so dunno

But it can be an option

[azure bay]

who said they are stuck?

Mr. Deer left the water to attack Dale

Mr. Rabbit also is a strange fellow

[high talon]

yeah but who said they cant be dragged back

[azure bay]

we didn't see it

I think the guests are there rather because they have nowhere to go

[high talon]

ah yeah but just bcs we dont see it odnt mean it didnt happen

[ebon aspen]

Ig ram was refering to they being stuck on that stage instead of being stuck in a certain place

[azure bay]

more often than not it does. The burden of proof is still a thing

[high talon]

fair point lmao but shall i change my view on that bcs of this?No..XD

[azure bay]

I prefer to consider both

[azure bay]

in the mythology, no state is eternal

only hell can be such if you have a veeeeeeeery bad karma

[ebon aspen]

Yeah, they arent eternally stuck, but im ram's theory they relive their bad stuff until karma or whatever is better on their side

Instead of living a miserable phisical life, its all in their heads

[azure bay]

I rather tend to think that they relive them only when they are ready to change them

and redeem themselves

[high talon]

or or listen

[azure bay]

the problem comes to those who lost memories

[high talon]

they relieve them over n over again until they fix em

[azure bay]

You don't need to be corrupted to revisit your memories

you just need cubes

[sage token]

I wonder what cubes taste like

[azure bay]

I reckon the white are like sugar and black ones like coal :p

[high talon]

what about the blue n golden ones?

[azure bay]

no associations for blues but the golden one has to taste like gold. or at least metal

[sage token]

I think they'd taste like clouds :')

[high talon]

what do clouds taste like lmao?

[sage token]

Like cubes

[azure bay]

hate to disappoint you guys, but it's water

[high talon]

water has a taste?

[sage token]

Darn

[azure bay]

does it?

ok

big question

what happens in Seasons?

[sage token]

Time travel

Possibly

Or reliving a memory

[high talon]

mmmm

[sage token]

Or both...

[high talon]

i do have a theory but its kinda long so forgive me if it takes time to type out

[azure bay]

take your time

[high talon]

So!I don't think it has to do with time travel (atleast not in the classical sense of many movies or novels.etc) but more like the machine both Dale and Laura are connected to is taking their original memories (Birthday party for Dale and the events of seasons for Laura) and Mr.Crow messes with the memories upon retrieving them and making both of them "see and live through" a what if scenario (Laura survives/Dale's family lives) like a "what could've happened" so its all really fake, like a false memory for their "comfort" only for him to take that happy memory/happier outcome away from them for his own selfish purposes????if that makes sense, i am bad @ explaining

[azure bay]

I'm sure that the only thing seen by Dale while being connected to a machine was Paradox

his elevator ride was real

the cubes floating around him were real

him entering them was for real

[sage token]

Unless everything was fake

[high talon]

mmm maybe but i feel it could be many things?

[sage token]

Is this server even real?

[high talon]

since birthday was relieved in paradox if you get my point?

[azure bay]

lol. It was all just video games where no one has a free will, just the scenarist

[azure bay]

birthday in Paradox wasn't about random memories nor about fixing the important ones

it was about the past defining the present and the present showing multiple ways into the future

[high talon]

it took me a few reads to understand that wording (lmao)

[azure bay]

CE Birthday was about Dale overcoming his fears and his past

Paradox has a different purpose

and Seasons are closer to Birthday than Paradox

[covert wyvern]

Thanks Crafter

[azure bay]

plz, call be nowhere

[covert wyvern]

My bad!

[prisma verge]

Spoil Roots
||The baby, at the end of Roots, is-it Laura ?||

[sage token]

Yes

[prisma verge]

Oh !

OH

Can I ask you something in mp ?

[sage token]

Well I'm not super familiar with the lore, I just know the gist of things
And also I don't know what mp means 😅

[prisma verge]

Oh sorry

In private

In.. Idk "mp" it's French 😭, sorry

[sage token]

It's okay! If your worried about spoilers, there's no need for that. This channel #🤔｜theories is pretty much one big spoiler.

[prisma verge]

Oh, Okay, thanks !

[sage token]

No problem

[prisma verge]

But it's not a theorie it's a question

About the triplets in roots

And idk where I can ask

[ebon aspen]

i think it can be here, since its lore-wise

or #🩸｜general-chat

[sage token]

Aye ☝️

[prisma verge]

So I can ask here ?

[sage token]

Yes 😁

[prisma verge]

Okay, so;

Oh ! Wait.. I just realised that I was dumb

I have my answer, I'm just an idiot

[sage token]

No worries, it happens to the best of us :)

[prisma verge]

;-;

You're nice, it's good to see nice people :3

[sage token]

Aww thanks 😊

[sage token]

Oh I just remembered that I kinda developed this Cube Escape theory more.
If Rusty Lake is sentient, as I suspect, it could be willing that Dale experiences these memories in the order of the games. It could be alternating the memories to create challenges, trials that Dale must overcome to prove that he is worthy of...ascension, I suppose.

[delicate atlas]

Oh that actually makes sense

So basically the CE games are in Dale's pov

And we experience it as him

While he experiences it as the people who own the memories

Wild

[azure bay]

There's one problem

The lake seemingly prefers Laura

"You can't save her unless you sacrifice yourself. The lake will be greatful"

I rather see the order necessary for keeping a mystery

Some questions are answered too early into chronology

Some messages rely on previous games

[delicate atlas]

I just hope they don't pull a junji itou on us (as in never reveal the mysterious)

[sage token]

I don't think it would be wise for them to reveal everything (A magician never reveals their secrets), but I would love to learn more, even if a couple loose ends are left untied

[hollow igloo]

Started replaying Roots now, and I have a question. It’s obvious but I never thought about that too much, since it is not so important to the plot.
Is James mr. Crow’s son?

[ebon aspen]

or its this or aldous and william had another sibling we dont know about

but considering the final family tree, very likely that mr crow was a papa

[hollow igloo]

In the portrait of the Vanderboom bros there are just Aldous and William. So there was probably no one else.

[sage token]

Does that mean the old lady from the mill is James's mom? 🤔

[hollow igloo]

I was thinking exactly about that

But that would mean that she is immortal too

I don’t think so honestly

[ebon aspen]

she doesnt need to be immortal

she can be a regular woman that had a relationship with aldous

[hollow igloo]

Yes, exactly

That’s the most reasonable idea to me

[coral vale]

Hi I have a question,so in the white room Robert seems to be able (I think) to go back to his original form after becomeing curupted..soo did that also happen with Laura Vanderboom?

[hollow igloo]

I personally don’t think so. We don’t know exactly what happened after the events in the Cave, especially after Laura and Dale were attached to that machine. Bob’s case is surely different though: for example, Laura became corrupted after she was already dead, while Bob was still alive. So personally I don’t think that Laura came back to her human form, but who knows really

[coral vale]

Ohh ok I get it! Thank you

Although maybe after the cave stuff happend and aldous became Mr crow does that mean that mr crow is Dale's grandfather?

[sage token]

He's not, but it's possible that Crow was inserted into Dale's memory of Birthday as his grandfather in order to change what happened

[hollow igloo]

In the past presented in Paradox chapter 2 the grandfather was not even present. So it is possible that the grandfather was not there in the first place

In the “IRL” incident I mean

[vague imp]

it's a fun theory, considering mr crow and mr owl partnership in the cubes business and the... multiple mr rabbit's deaths

it makes sense they would take turns

[hollow igloo]

Also, another thing I would ask of you all, regarding roots. The characters are more like “dolls”, they surely have ideas and goals to reach, but they act in the grand scheme of things like puppets most of the time. Also, they all seem kinda aware of the presence of William’s CS (he is on Emma’s painting, he tooks the wedding photo and so on), though in some kind of a “passive” way: the only exception is Rose, who speaks directly to us. My question is: do you think it is just a stylistic choice or there is something more deep lorewise, something like CS being able to influence those nearby in some way or maybe some strange influence of the lake?

If so, what do you think about it?

Also, who is this guy?

[sage token]

I don't know but now I shall call him Garret

[sage token]

My first thought is that it's just a style choice, but it could have a deeper meaning. 🤷‍♀️

[delicate atlas]

Reminds me of the pigeon chick that was being tortured in hotel but idk

[delicate atlas]

I personally think he manipulated them some how and observed from a distance to make sure they fulfill his wish

That's why he ended up contacting Rose

So she would make sure his plan is gonna succeed

And help him find the timepieces

[azure bay]

That could be nothing more than Aldous and William sharing space on a portrait.

But seriously, the house was likely built for the alchemy sake. It's harder to incorporate a secret lab into a finished house than building them simultaneously

[azure bay]

She's very unlikely to be as immortal as Aldous

[azure bay]

Thinking that everything the player does is done by the protagonist is quite a stretch.

Only the ones with powers could see William alongside the ones who was close to death

[azure bay]

Everyone says it's Mr. Crow. I tend to agree but see no rational reason for that.

I reckon it's his future form

[hollow igloo]

Another possibility: maybe James comes from a different branch of the family, in a way that William is something like the old uncle that no one remembered and you only acknowledge him because he is dead and you are on his will. I hope I was clear enough with what I’m saying. This may be reasonable considering that James is an outsider, he doesn’t seem to know RL or the Vanderboom’s mansion. If he were Aldous’ son, maybe he would have already seen the mansion before. The possibilities for speculation are endless

[azure bay]

William and Aldous don't have to live near the lake originally

[hollow igloo]

That is true

[azure bay]

Honestly, the question of James' father is a nasty one

You either overcomplicate his relations with Aldous or introduce a noname dead on arrival sibling

[hollow igloo]

I never really thought about that too much because it is not so relevant, but it sure is interesting. But I agree with you, it is complicated and we have to few info to theorize on

[azure bay]

I couldn't agree more about its relevancy

[sage token]

Aye, I was thinking about that yesterday but didn't say anything

[azure bay]

Well, that's the only way she could be James' mother considering chronology.

She couldn't even be Dale's grandma in case he's Crow's grandson

She's too young

[sage token]

Aye

[finite lake]

sus

[covert wyvern]

Verg

Very*

[mystic magnet]

Man, Paradox was the most confusing game in lore

Is really possible change the past or even go to the future? Time travel is canon?

[finite lake]

I mean, Birthday is literally time traveling

[mystic magnet]

Can you prevent Laura's death with Dale's sacrifice in the real world?

[finite lake]

You wanna kill Dale? 😭

[mystic magnet]

As far as I understand the franchise, he probably changed this event only in his memories

[mystic magnet]

Nooo. I'm believe in Dale supremacy ✊

[covert wyvern]

If dale ascends laura dies

That's the way the elixir works, I suppose.

[finite lake]

Yesss

[mystic magnet]

Also, Dale didn't kill Laura, did he?

It was a suicide, right?

Paradox is really confusing

[finite lake]

I mean, in Paradox it was him

[floral mauve]

well it has multiple possibilities

I currently believe its more Laura entity killed Laura entity

since the definition of suicide is not quite stricted

I personally like the idea of Laura CS entity killed Laura

[hollow igloo]

He did not kill her. But he did. That’s the Paradox.

On a more serious note, remember the corrupted soul attacking Laura in CE: the lake? I guess it was Dale, and that attack caused her mind to break at last, leading her to suicide. So Laura killed herself, but Dale somehow caused it. Regarding time travel, I personally think that is something more like an alteration of memories, in a way that for example, in CE:Birthday Dale prevents his family’s slaughter, but in reality they are dead and remain dead. It is just the memory that is altered, not reality. Either way, time is most likely distorted in the lake, so a form of “time travel” is present in a way, either influencing reality or just the memories.

[mystic magnet]

Interesting

I agree 100%

But

How the body in the lake is Dale?

Also

[floral mauve]

thats the main flaw I see here

Dale doesnt even know the lake until Laura die

[mystic magnet]

Is there some theory about how D. Eilander is alive in CE: Birthday?

[floral mauve]

a lot

have you played Paradise and Hotel?

[mystic magnet]

The only way I can imagine is reborn, but I think it just happened with William and nobody else.

[floral mauve]

reborn (Here I meant the sacrifice ritual)

and potential memory losses

in addition to being killed again

by Mr Owl

then become CS Rabbit

[mystic magnet]

So Harvey kill him, and then he reborn and kill Dale's family?

[floral mauve]

which apparently seeks to escape its current CS status

[floral mauve]

whats your definition of reborn though.

If its about going back to human form

[mystic magnet]

Ok, but if he reborn, why his corrupted soul is still in the lake?

[floral mauve]

then Rabbit is probably trying to achieve that by killing Dale's family

to get the pistol

balance the substances of his past life

[floral mauve]

I never said he did

However,

[hollow igloo]

I think that body is just a corpse, not necessarily the same CS of the end of the game

[floral mauve]

Rabbit is different

It is rational and seem to be out the cage before others did

yep

indeed

I double checked

Rabbit wasnt there

[mystic magnet]

I'm a little lost on this part. It's the first time I've seen other interpretations in the Rusty Lake community and I'm not sure what the slopes are.

[floral mauve]

what slope

I can slow down

tell me which part you dont get

[mystic magnet]

Ok, another thing I'm very confused is

What is "Balance the substances of your past lifes?"

[floral mauve]

good question

tbh there is no certain answer to this

even I aint sure if my interpretation is logical

I believe it is about collecting memories and end suffering

[mystic magnet]

The golden cube is the elixir and a key for the future?

[floral mauve]

what do you think

there is no only answer

[mystic magnet]

I think that's one of the things Mr. Owl wants.

[floral mauve]

you mean Mr Owl wants the golden cube?

[hollow igloo]

In my opinion the elixir is more of a concept rather that a specific object. Specifically, it may be linked to its effect, making someone ascend to a higher state of consciousness.

[floral mauve]

What does Mr Owl want?

funny question isnt it

[mystic magnet]

And a representation of future's memory or something like that

[floral mauve]

indeed

but

[mystic magnet]

All the memories showed only the past, maybe the golden one can show the future.

[hollow igloo]

The true mastermind of the lake

[floral mauve]

not higher consciousness I believe

since you dont need to go through the elevator journey if you simply drink the elixir

if you want to reach deva

[mystic magnet]

Yes

[floral mauve]

well, yeah, a higher consciousness is necessary

[floral mauve]

But he said his time is limited

[mystic magnet]

Also, everyone here believe that Paradox takes place before CE Birthday and Theatre?

[floral mauve]

maybe he wants to pass the lake to Dale

and creating a god

[mystic magnet]

Makes sense.

[floral mauve]

most people do

but dont let conventions restrict you

[hollow igloo]

Correct. I was using that phrasing to refer to an higher stage of the wheel, enlightenment is a better choice of words

[floral mauve]

you can always have creative theories

[mystic magnet]

If Dale and Laura cannot exist at the same time, so Mr. Owl and Mr. Crow have their own particular goals that conflict with each other

[floral mauve]

Enlightenment is also a tricky one

I tend to see it as a word only for Asura stage

from human to asura

the process is called enlightenment

but to deva

I dunno

and its unknown

[mystic magnet]

Jacob wants Dale to be alive to pass on the legacy, while Aldous wants Laura to live for obvious reasons. I think this difference in ideals has been made clear since The Mill

[floral mauve]

deva might be asura with golden cube and nothing else changed

[hollow igloo]

I think it could be called enlightenment even in that case

[floral mauve]

not only alive I believe lol

He wants Dale to be better than anyone else in terms of power

at least mentally prepared and physically eventually

[floral mauve]

then yes

[hollow igloo]

I tend to use “enlightenment” to refer to an ascension to a higher state of the wheel. So in that case even the transition for CS to human (Samsara room) is a form of enlightenment

[floral mauve]

Also, I never understand whether Aldous wants Laura to live just because she has the soul of his brother

[floral mauve]

so for animal to human, cs to human can also be considered as enlightenment?

oh

I didnt read the entire sentence

lol

[mystic magnet]

The CS in CE: The Lake is Jacob's grandma, right? I think Harvey's Box confirm it.

[covert wyvern]

Now that's an interesting theory I sure haven't heard before

[floral mauve]

what

why

give me some reasoning

OH

now I see where you come from

[mystic magnet]

Because a dove appears in the box, and the CS that tries to attack Harvey is not Laura, but the one with the dove, as she has wings.

[floral mauve]

I know

I actually never thought about this before

[hollow igloo]

As someone in this community made me notice, in CE: the cave we discover that the original recipe of the elixir (William’s one) is present deep in Laura’s memory, so that maybe one of the reasons Laura is necessary to the process

[floral mauve]

I wish nowhere is here

[floral mauve]

thats the problem I dont get, we dont see wings in The lake do we

however, we can still blame its due to early development but its kinda lame

[floral mauve]

yes

[hollow igloo]

The one with wings is most likely ms. Pigeon. The one on The lake does not have wings though, at least it is not shown

[floral mauve]

its an evidence that William sorta still exists in Laura

[hollow igloo]

Yes, exactly

[floral mauve]

Nevertheless, we arent sure about if William is able to awake as William anymore

since a soul

shouldnt split

and cannot split

I personally believe William's personality is gone

like its no way to be back

[hollow igloo]

I agree with you on that

[floral mauve]

unless Laura's memory got erased completely

Therefore, what I thought is that, the current recipe of Elixir might be incomplete

and possibly William and Aldous have to work together for it (With Caroline and Jakob's help as well)

therefore, Aldous only may not be able to recreate the Elixir

[hollow igloo]

Maybe they also wanted to create a better version of the elixir to make Dale’s enlightenment to Deva easier, given that any form of the elixir is not sufficient on its own, but maybe a better elixir could help. Who knows

[floral mauve]

I am not sure about that though, because after he made his decision and had his elevator journey

hopefully that he already reached the stage of deva

since in twd

we see deer headed Dale

which means that Deva might be asura with a golden cube

*unlocks more power

[azure bay]

I'd say yes, some would say no. Who is right?

[azure bay]

In case Laura's sacrifice took place during her supposed suicide, I guess, yes. It could probably be changed retroactively

[azure bay]

Not sure here. Notes in Seasons say that you actually can change the past via memories

[azure bay]

Dale and Laura are my primary suspects 😉

I like my "global paradox theory".
Paradox was basically Dale seeing another Dale killing Laura. That took place in Dale's mind but could also reflect the reality as other elements do. That reality would be Dale investigating Laura's death committed by corrupted Dale from the future/another timeline/etc.

[azure bay]

But it also could be a suicide. Laura was confirmed to weld the knife after all whether she was influenced by some CS or not

[azure bay]

According to the source material mythology, every single moment someone dies and someone gets reborn. It's mostly CS who have problems with that.

[azure bay]

Long story short, David Eilander was reborn as Mr. Rabbit, killed by Harvey and became corrupted. Whether he was reborn once more or not, he seeks to be reborn again and for that he needed grandpa's pistol

[azure bay]

I assume it's about manipulating your past life objects and changing memories or maybe even the very events.

Balancing substance was an important step in RL:MH&F program. Dale seem to stick to it and changing B-day would be that balancing

[azure bay]

I'm not sure if those reasons are that obvious. William's dead and Laura is not William anymore. Laura dying and being eventually reborn as someone else wouldn't take Crow further from his brother than he already is.

[azure bay]

How was it made clear?

[azure bay]

funny enough, it could be. William is looking for enlightenment in SR. The owl also tells him to reach it. So it's fair to expect him to get one at some point and the best time would be the ending of that game

[azure bay]

just. ping. me

please

[azure bay]

I tend to disagree with Laura's lake trip defining her suicidal tendencies.

1. We know too little about it
2. In Paradox Laura said that it all started with Hervey's egg

[floral mauve]

My bad, before I always thought that in SR William is still seeking for entering Asura since he failed last time, that made me thought that oh enlightenment must be achieving this goal of entering asura

[floral mauve]

This is me in early 2021

But now I get it

William in SR cares more about going back to human stage

I guess

[mystic magnet]

Who is Harvey?

He was originally a human or bird?

[delicate atlas]

There's no way to know for sure

Imo he's an ancient bird

He used to help Jacob's mother then he helped Jacob and he helped the Vanderboom family

He's a guide to everyone

[mystic magnet]

Makes sense

[delicate atlas]

His first appearance in paradise is as bird

Only time as anthropomorphic is in hotel

So I assume he's a bird originally

[floral mauve]

depends though, generally speaking, it can be anything as long as the soul is the same

tbh, I never understand how a soul originally formed

[azure bay]

That's what the devs said

[floral mauve]

Did they say ancient bird

[delicate atlas]

Oh yeah true

[floral mauve]

or ancient

[azure bay]

For this we have no evidence

I mean, the Caroline part

[floral mauve]

exactly

[azure bay]

Would it be Harvey if it wasn't a bird?

[floral mauve]

we dont even have evidence to show that Harvey have human logic in bird form

[floral mauve]

if deliver letter counts

[floral mauve]

god dammmittt philosophy again

I think it still it

since Harvey the parrot and Harvey the employee

both exists

I guess Harvey is on his document

[azure bay]

Another thing

Isn't everyone ancient?

[floral mauve]

exactly

but no

the memories reset though

its like recycling paper

[azure bay]

It seems to me that staying in the same body for millennia is more plausible than preserving memories for numerous reincarnations

[floral mauve]

I never said Harvey goes though normal reincarnation thing

he might be associated with the lake

and its power

[floral mauve]

this is the normal reincarnation process

So it is possible that Harvey just

inmortal

to some extent

at least eternal life span

[delicate atlas]

I remember an achievement or a scene or a flashback that implies that but maybe I'm mistaken

[high talon]

oh actually didnt they say smth about that in the QnA last year?

[delicate atlas]

Yeah

The discussion now is did Harvey help Coraline or not

[azure bay]

You remember correctly. There was Harvey but nothing was evidently suggesting that it was connected to Caroline

[floral mauve]

yep

Harvey passed by Paradise

with flower

[delicate atlas]

Yeah

[floral mauve]

However, the flower might be the resemblence of Caroline

[delicate atlas]

Oh yeah

Because of the cave

And vessels

[floral mauve]

Caroline

with flower

[delicate atlas]

The type of flowers in was the same as the one harvey had

[floral mauve]

I guess

[azure bay]

Honestly, I can imagine Harvey heloing Caroline. That wouldn't be unexpected

[delicate atlas]

Yup

[azure bay]

We just need to wait for confirmation

[floral mauve]

I guess we just made some progress?

Harvey was with Caroline

while she was studying stuff

[azure bay]

So was Laura, a fish and some CS

[floral mauve]

yes

CS looks like Owl though

[delicate atlas]

This

I don't think it's a coincidence

It probably has a meaning

But I'm not sure what

[azure bay]

I mean it could imply something. But yeah, what would it be?

[floral mauve]

yeah

[floral mauve]

Harvey is paying respect to Caroline

[azure bay]

F

[mystic magnet]

Dale's family died when he was 11 years old?

Wtf

[sage token]

I thought he was 8

Definitely single digit 🤔

[azure bay]

9

[delicate atlas]

Wasn't it his 9th birthday?

[sage token]

I was close

[azure bay]

🤨

@mystic magnet Does your Paradox game depict 11?

[mystic magnet]

I saw it in a gameplay

[azure bay]

It was an outdated version

[mystic magnet]

The offical gameplay from the RL channel

[floral mauve]

yeah

there was a bug or error in the plot

I think they fixed it

[azure bay]

It's not a bug, rather a mistake

[floral mauve]

thats why I said error

[hollow igloo]

Double-checked with paradox ch.2, the error is now corrected, Dale was nine

[floral mauve]

Yes

[hollow igloo]

The first photo is the walkthrough, the other is a game I played now

Just to be sure

[azure bay]

@hollow igloo great you are here. I wanted to ask you something

[hollow igloo]

Tell me

[azure bay]

you seem to have some understanding of the plot

maybe you have some unique theories?

[hollow igloo]

Thank you, I think I do lol

I have a theory about how the lake got his powers, somehow related to the Eilander’s family and their cult. Not many proofs, just a great fantasy, but it could make sense.

It is a bit long though

[azure bay]

Take your time, I have all day

[hollow igloo]

Nice

So, let’s start from my “evidence”: what do we know about the Eilander’s cult?

We know that they somehow worship the lake, they have some knowledge about the Samsara cycle (or at least Caroline does, since the wheel is present in her book), and so they most likely have some knowledge about the “enlightenment” thing.

This does not mean they have a complete knowledge about the truth of the RL universe, such as memories/cubes, corrupted souls and so on

My guess is that, except for Caroline who probably had a deeper knowledge (she was able to craft her version of the elixir and she became a self-conscious corrupted souls, probably on purpose, who knows), and Nicolas, who knows that cubes are essential to reach enlightenment (though he is not able to “unlock” it), they are all pretty ignorant on the matter.

We know for sure though that in their cult, sacrifices must be made. Human sacrifices in particular. We don’t know how often this is necessary, but this is more likely to feed memories to the lake. In fact, when Caroline dies her black cubes spread across the island, not in the lake, and that is probably why plagues develop: since the lake has not been fed, it manifests his power (and its “wrath”, if we assume that the lake has consciousness, which is not sure) in order to punish its “sons and daughters”, like an ancient god of sort.

Also, in my opinion it is safe to say that this cult is not something exclusive to the Eilander family we see: it seems to be a much more ancient tradition. Thinking of the painting in the ninth place, or even the painting that represents the ten plagues, there is a large crowd of people worshipping a cube on paradise island.

So the cube still has some religious relevance: think about caroline’s lab in the well. Above the animal’s statues, there is a cube with an eye on it, and the eye is usually associated with god.

[azure bay]

nice observation

[hollow igloo]

But again, i don’t think they knew what cubes really were, they probably though of them as godly items or relics, or they associated it with the lake

Starting from this, my theory is the following.

The Eilanders are what remains of an ancient cult, derived from an ancient community that grew around the lake, probably in a prehistoric time. As all ancient religions in history, this community started worshipping natural elements, and since they were near the lake, they started to worship it.

Now, it is impossible to know if the lake had already its powers, being to every extent some sort of “deity”, or if it had not.

Now, i think about Twin Peaks, especially about the entity known as BOB.

In TP S3 we discover that BOB, essentially the incarnation of evil, was created after the first nuclear bomb, as some incarnation of the evil within mankind, or something like that

My guess is that the lake power have a similar origin. An that is how it goes

This community worships the lake. They offer him goods, and they start making human sacrifices.

Probably burning them, who knows

But these sacrifices start to accumulate over the ages. And so, the souls of these sacrifices, and their memories.

This large accumulation starts to react in some sort of supernatural way. The lake starts to obtain a sort of consciousness, or to be more correct, something like a soul. Remember that the lake is one of the stages of the wheel, I dunno honestly if Nakara is just like the Christian hell for example, so a place where souls are gathered, or it has a soul on its own, but still it is related to the concept of souls.

The story goes on, and this community still worships the lake. But civilization goes on and many leave these barbaric practices. But the lake, whose powers are born from these sacrifices, needs cubes, and so he manifests his powers through the plague a first time, making this cult even more radical. Also, worshipping a god, they started to think of wanting something back, and so they started to believe that giving sacrifices to the lake could grant them enlightenment, maybe influenced by other cultures in some way.

But then, another “power” of the lake is its ability to manipulate time, not in a voluntary way. In my opinion, this is still a consequence of the presence of memories used to fed the lake. Since memories are the representation of something happened in the past by definition, maybe the presence of a large quantity of memories in the lake made it possible to create an environment in which past and present “merge”, in a sense that there is a strong distortion of time, making it possible e to materialize memories. To a greater extent, this flux of distorted time could have accumulated in some spots, creating an interesting an super rare object: the blue cubes, which could be though as past condensed: they are not memories, they don’t contain memories (the cave), just time, and that is why they can be used ( at least in the memories, maybe we will know more in The Past Within) to travel back in time.

Time passes and still, the cult of the lake is smaller and smaller. In the time of the game, my guess is that the Eilander family is what remains of this cult. That still worship, guard and take care of the lake. This at least until, thanks to Caroline’s studies and Jakob’s last sacrifice, he is able to reach an higher state giving birth to Mr. Owl.

This fantasy does not take into consideration Harvey, which is most likely an ancient being, so this is far to be a perfect theory. Also is pretty much 90% invented and not based on concrete evidence.

Well it is based on some evidence, which I explained before, but we know nothing about the events of RL before paradise, so that is all invented by me of course. I want to be clear about that.

I really hope that the past of RL will be explored in a future game (you said that something similar could be a possibility, right @azure bay ?)

[azure bay]

There was a mammoth teaser back in 2018-2019

no info since

[hollow igloo]

Ok, good to know still

I remembered you saying something similar, but I didn’t know why you said that. Interesting

[azure bay]

What can you tell about Dale's journey?

[hollow igloo]

In a general sense or about something specific?

[azure bay]

let's start with the general

[hollow igloo]

Ok

I think it is a preparation to make him a deva and the proper, and maybe final ruler of the lake.

[azure bay]

how do you know about the deva part?

[hollow igloo]

I think that mr. Owl was meant to become a deva in the first place, since in Paradise’s representation of Samsara the spot of the deva is most likely covered by the Owl, which again has a very important meaning in the cult of the lake. Other than that though, Owl was not able to become a Deva, simply because when we see the Samsara wheel in Theatre and Cave the spot of the deva is filled with a question mark: this means that there was no living Deva at that point, meaning that Owl was not a Deva, but an Asura, even if he is the most powerful entity of the RL universe (my guess is that in his first days he was so strong that he was able to manipulate other being’s state in the wheel, making them able to enlighten, as he where some kind of “human elixir”). Since a deva does not exist, then mr Owl wants his successor to become one, and sees Dale as a possible candidate. So he tries to make him as conscious as possible of the truth, combining that with the full elixir (a somehow “pure” and maybe perfected formula), in order to make him able to finally ascend to the highest state possible. We don’t know what a deva is in RL, but if Owl is so powerful, we could only imagine how powerful a deva could be.

[azure bay]

fairly speaking, the question mark could mean that deva's identity is just secret

that's why some consider Owl a deva

[hollow igloo]

That could be an option too

[azure bay]

on the other hand, assuming that Caroline's wheel indicates Owl to occupy the deva realm is a bit faulty

the wheel is scrambled and we don't know in what exactly way

[hollow igloo]

There are two possible options for deva and Asura: the Owl and the Deer

[floral mauve]

or possibly no one knows what deva is like

[hollow igloo]

I think that since the owl seems to be more important for the cult, that could be the “better” stage of the two

[azure bay]

here we speak of why that question mark may not explicitly disproof Owl being Deva

neither I say that it explicitly proves that

[azure bay]

pretty much yes, and Paradox that also features exactly that wheel speaks in deva deer favor

there's a 3d option

nothing could be scrambled. The owl is just a naraka dweller and the forest is where asuras live (at some uncertain point in time that is)

[hollow igloo]

That is another possibility too

The Deer as Deva could also make sense considering that Dale is often represented as a deer, but also Nicholas is (could make sense since he is the cult leader), but also Albert.

I tend to associate the Deer with a metaphor of murder, since all of them are killers.

But again, the Past Within will be a thing soon, and I can’t wait to see what will be next about our favorite psychopath

[azure bay]

Dale is the reason I consider Paradox as a possible indicator. However no one else. Nicolas is rather an asura and Albert is just a sorcerer

[hollow igloo]

Maybe Albert will become a Deva in some way?

[hollow igloo]

Yeah, i think that too

[azure bay]

only if he becomes Dale somehow

[hollow igloo]

Ore maybe multiple Devas could exist at the same time

[azure bay]

oh, they certainly could but it's very unlikely to become one

for Albert included

[hollow igloo]

That could lead to interesting scenarios, with two Devas, Dale and Albert, that could represent good and evil in some way, conflicting with each other

But i agree with you, it is very unlikely

We have to wait some more months to have more info

[azure bay]

yeah

it's a strange feeling

I want and at the same time don't want Albert to be reborn as Dale

It's totally cool to predict that but I don't like Dale being related to Vanderbooms in any way

despite Albert somewhat deserving a good ending in my eyes

[hollow igloo]

Dale is born in 1930, Albert died in 1926, so yearwise this is not something to exclude

That would be strange, I agree with you

[sage token]

Oh gosh no

[hollow igloo]

But again, reincarnation in the RL universe is something pretty obscure right now, we have only one example performed with a decades long ritual

[azure bay]

strange isn't much a concern of mine. It's rather about Dale not being a complete stranger

[hollow igloo]

Yeah, I mean in that sense

[azure bay]

I like him to be a random person that happened to be chosen by fate

not some kind of Eilander or Vanderboom direct heir

[hollow igloo]

I agree with you too

Fortunately, we know that Dale has parents. Considering Laura this is not something to underestimate

[azure bay]

what do you mean by that?

[hollow igloo]

Well, Laura is born thanks to ritual. She is Rose’s daughter, but not in a natural way

Dale having both parents, and they don’t seem to be related to the Vanderboom in any way, could mean that he is not born thanks to a ritual

[azure bay]

the opinion of the grandpa being Crow is strong

[hollow igloo]

I don’t think that is the case honestly

Maybe it is just mr. Crow trying to help Dale fix his trauma, like Owl and Harvey did. It is still an altered memory, and Grandpa is too conscious of what is happening, while for example the parents are not.

Also, in the past presented in Paradox the grandpa is not present in any way. So it is possible that he was never present at the party in the first place.

[azure bay]

funny enough I know a way to explain grandpa's absence

[hollow igloo]

Tell us, I’m curious

[azure bay]

the only problem, they are out the lore

he either wasn't important for Paradox or there was just no seat for him in Dale's mind

alternatively, in case he really was Dale's grandpa, Dale doesn't seem to remember him since he doesn't recognize the old crow

[hollow igloo]

That was another thing I was thinking about

[azure bay]

that could be explained by memory suppression

[hollow igloo]

But still, why he remembers him in one occasion and not in another one?

[azure bay]

you mean the B-day cube?

[hollow igloo]

Yes

Maybe it is some kind of unconscious memory?

[azure bay]

many disagree but I personally tend to think that the cubes contain an accurate copy of the events. How the brain reads them may differ

[hollow igloo]

I never thought about it this way. Could make sense

So different people could read the same cube in different ways, if they can read it.

[azure bay]

this part is hard to tell

I just believe that the cubes may create the reality while amnesia and false memories are objectively a thing

[hollow igloo]

Not a bad idea. Seems logical

[floral mauve]

it is true that memories arent always accurate

brain is easy to trick

[mystic magnet]

I think Dale's grandpa isn't the crow

Like Harvey and Mr. Owl's letter and the time machine, they are additions to Dale's memory as they were not present in the actual event.

Remember one of Bob's dreams?

We see elements of every corner of the canon in Bob's dream, like the reporter, Dale with deer mask and the DJ

So Dale's grandpa is just a simple man with crow appearance in birthday cube.

[floral mauve]

have you considered the possibility that Grandpa wasnt even there the whole time?

Crow had a disguise and twisted the memory

since in Paradox, which normally, comes before Birthday

we dont see grandpa

in Dale's mind

@mystic magnet

[mystic magnet]

no

I'm believe the grandpa was there

but he is not the crow

[floral mauve]

but sometimes you gotta have more evidence or reasoning to support it

I used paradox

[floral mauve]

why cant Grandpa be a part of it

[sage token]

Plus the Grandpa has the same void eyes as Crow.

And also the bar tender iirc

[azure bay]

I wouldn't compare that much Bob's fever dream to Dale's altered memory but you have a point

[azure bay]

Only 2 confirmed manifestations of Mr. Crow had these "void" eyes against 3 that didn't and bartender is not one of the formers

[azure bay]

Where would they put grandpa in Paradox?

[delicate atlas]

But in theatre when the "intermezzo by mr. Crow" happens the bartender disappears

And he's on stage wearing a crow mask on his head but you still can see part of his face

[azure bay]

That's not what I meant

[delicate atlas]

Oh sorry

[azure bay]

I meant that barman had no void eyes

Both in Theatre and TWD

[delicate atlas]

Oh ok, I get it now

I read "formers" as "forms" lol

[azure bay]

I also want you to notice that grandpa has also some subtle changes

His skin tone is brighter than the one Aldous ever had

He has more hair than Aldous ever had

Glasses could be to hide those void eyes of yours

And grandpa behaves not like we'd expect an elder creature to behave

It doesn't mean grandpa isn't Crow

These are reasons to doubt

[floral mauve]

in mind puzzle

at least

[azure bay]

Let's suppose, the puzzle was made to fit ch2. Where would you put him at most?

[floral mauve]

under the red curtain

[azure bay]

That place was already taken

As a future hiding spot for Rabbit

[floral mauve]

dang I forgot

Maybe in the phone book?

because the existence of grandpa is only in birthday

[distant relic]

was frank born right after emma did the flower thing? did she have to wait nine months? less months?

idk where i was supposed to post this question

[azure bay]

it's the right place

[azure bay]

but how would we know that?

[distant relic]

touché

thank you anyway ^^

[azure bay]

ok, I've got some ideas

[distant relic]

yeah?

[azure bay]

but no, the devs told us nothing so far about Emma and Frank

I personally never supposed he was born right away

for me it's already magical enough for further oddities

[distant relic]

i can imagine

[azure bay]

there's also a theory that Frank wasn't even conceived with a flower.

According to it, some unknown father just "deflowered" Emma before leaving her for good

But I personally don't like this way of interpretation

[distant relic]

she already looked pregnant pretty immediately but not quite nine months yet.

yeah, i've thought of that too. but you're right. frank doesn't need a baby daddy!!!

[sage token]

That kinda does make more sense than flower baby though

[azure bay]

hell it does, but there is another ton of weird things with no explanation

[sage token]

True lol

[distant relic]

the "etc." in that list wouldn't be out of a lack of ideas, it'd be out of having too many ideas

but yeah. thank you :)

[vague imp]

well... as you said she was very visibly pregnant immediately after the flower bit, if I remember well. She went from 0 to 7 in a heartbeat. So, if we want to take all this at face value, I'd say she had a pregnancy speedrun with the classical Vanderboom's "birth potion" cheat at the end

[high talon]

vsdklnbknbfdf

speedrunning life?No
Speedrunning birth

[azure bay]

Another thing is, we shouldn't literally take everything we see

[vague imp]

nono, I absolutely agree - I also immediately thought about it being a metaphor of some sort

but

it's... funnier to take it literally

(my first reaction at the flower bit was "I don't know what they're hinting at but... magical baby is the most chill interpretation, I'll go with that")

[distant relic]

yeah lol emma don't need no man

she's a strong independent woman

[azure bay]

(If you interested here's a good example of what I'm saying : "The Search" chapter makes A LOT more sense if we assume it spans 6 years)

[vague imp]

I'm not sure I'm getting the reference

(but yeah, I am interested)

[distant relic]

like she never gave up looking for him?

[azure bay]

it's dated as 1891. Emma writes her goodbye letter to lost Frank... And waits for another 5 years before committing suicide

with a temporal anomaly happening outside the window

(I mean the events in the hotel of 1894)

[distant relic]

i was gonna say, cuz like what was harvey doing there? XD

[vague imp]

uh, I never noticed there was this much of a pause between the letter and Emma's suicide. I'm bad with dates, the moment I stop looking at them I forget everything

[distant relic]

i'm good with dates, but i didn't really think much about that time gap. this conversation's got me thinking :)

[azure bay]

if we assume that The Search takes longer than a few minutes we took to solve all the puzzles, Emma witnessing the light beam that resurrected Harvey in 1894 as well as writing that letter where she foreshadowed her suicide of 1896 both fall into place

[vague imp]

which makes sense, honestly. So you're saying we should took this "enlarged timeframe" (sorry, english not my first language, I'm missing some key words) with Emma's pregnancy too. We saw her going from 0 to 7 in a second but in reality it took much longer

[azure bay]

it's ok. actual native speakers are not as frequent here as you think

[distant relic]

yeah, basically. i think they gave her the baby bump at the end just to indicate to us that she was pregnant.

[vague imp]

makes perfect sense, there weren't many other visual ways to convey this concept

[distant relic]

yep! honestly this enlarged timeframe thing is a good one! applicable to other events too.

[vague imp]

there's one where it really doesn't work: Leonard's timeframe

I still don't get why his parents seem to die when he's a kid

yet they're in the newspaper when he's old enough to go to war

[distant relic]

i didn't think it applied to every event, but some definitely.

i assumed with the paper that maybe they were slow on getting news? but that's slow for even the oldest of standards...

[vague imp]

the best I can think of... is the investigation was on going and they were having doubts about it being murder when Leonard was of age?

[azure bay]

the newspaper is rather an exposition instrument than a reliable lore-friendly source

[vague imp]

yeah, I guess so

still, finding plausible reasons for exposition-only stuff is a funny hobby

[azure bay]

they seem to evoke events we could miss by following 1 tree branch at a time

[vague imp]

and that's very welcome, since getting the "right" order can be... tricky

I don't dislike my half-assed theory of the ongoing investigation leading to murder doubts years after the facts, honestly. A sort of parallel with Laura's death investigation

stupid, ok, but neat

[distant relic]

it is neat :)
history repeating itself and all that

[azure bay]

I wonder, what alibi would Albert have so he wouldn't inevitably taken in, in case of real investigation :з

[distant relic]

did rusty lake even have police? :0

[vague imp]

he didn't touch them! (true?) and he was too busy stabbing butterflies

[azure bay]

Maybe some regional forces

it seems to be deep in nowhere

[vague imp]

DALE'S REAL GRANPA. He's "from the lake", after all

(but yeah, nowherecaw is right, I don't think they have a police force for 1 mill, 1 hotel and 1 house in the middle of nowhere)

[azure bay]

I rather think it's foreshadowing Dale's future role

[distant relic]

yeah. the hotel would've been closed tf down.

[distant relic]

yeah.

[azure bay]

By what authority? No humans died there

none that we know of at least

[vague imp]

mr toad was sloppy with hygien

[distant relic]

if there were police... nah even then mr owl could probably pull something.

the hotel would not be shut down.

[mystic magnet]

Uh... Samsara Room. Man, this game is very confusing wtf

ok, it is about William's reincarnation

[azure bay]

if you ask some certain question you are likely to get a certain answer

[mystic magnet]

but what the fish, shrimp and lizard mean? Other failed incarnations before Laura?

[azure bay]

unlikely

technically, they are a gimmick that came from an old uncanon game

it could be nothing more than that

but I assume it could be literally William's past lives that he literally balances

[mystic magnet]

The window is a """portal""" to a incarnation, it is confirmed when you put a baby in the window and turned Laura

So maybe William tried to living another lives?

[azure bay]

not before you reach the bird room where the soul starts feeling "free"

[mystic magnet]

Or are the fish, shrimp and lizard literally substance of his past lives?

[azure bay]

only if during some other time period. because he had not much time before being reborn as Laura

[azure bay]

In some way, I guess

[mystic magnet]

I think every sentence of his in the mirror is a reference to the respective animal. This phrase is just a reference to the fact that he feels like a bird, because he has become one.

[azure bay]

he didn't feel like a bird but felt rather free

the bird room is a very different one

I'd say it's a whole new act

[mystic magnet]

if he had the possibility of being reborn like any other animal, he was not reborn that way because he intended to reincarnate as literally William Vanderboom again, and for him he leaves these lives like these animals to seek a new life that satisfies him in Samsara Room, and so he decided to wait and make sure to take all ten sacrifices to be reborn?

Obviously in that case we would have to assume the possibility that his being reborn in Laura was a result gone wrong. Also, Laura likes things he doesn't like, like shrimp.

[azure bay]

I'm a bit confused about your conclusions

[mystic magnet]

Okay, I'll summarize what I think

William Vanderboom wanted to live again, and we see in Samsara that he could be reincarnated in several lifetimes. In gameplay we always aim to go to the next level (reincarnation) until we get to the last one, where the game ends (in this case, Laura's birth.)

William wanted to be born again as William Vanderboom, so we played Rusty Lake Roots to take the ten sacrifices and do the rebirth. However, instead of literally being reborn, Laura comes to life. I think William is quite unhappy in this life and that's why he killed her. The contrast of the two like Laura liking shrimp and William not liking shrimp, might be a purposeful hint as to how the two seem opposites.

[azure bay]

1st of all I saw no intention to be reborn as William. The soul wanted to "live"

"Don't worry, brother. We're always here in our past and future lives," says Crow

[mystic magnet]

Hey

did laura killed harvey?

[azure bay]

it's a highly debatable topic

[mystic magnet]

I think Laura was revisited her memories in The Mill

[azure bay]

Samsara Room for a long time wasn't about achieving the next level but rather about expanding and traveling between them a lot

only The Bird Room seems a big step forward

[mystic magnet]

My theory is:

I think the seasons gameplay (when Laura revisits her memories) takes place while she's holding Harvey in The Mill, and Mr. Crow's phone messages are his words in The Mill when we try to communicate with her to release Harvey. Perhaps the choice to go back in time and not kill Harvey is the effect of Mr. Crow causing his corrupted soul to let go of him.

[azure bay]

wasn't Laura already dead in fall 1971?

[mystic magnet]

I meant that Laura's corrupt soul at the end of The Mill is revisiting the memories and her traumas and that's the gameplay of Seasons.

[azure bay]

I get you

please understand and answer my question

[mystic magnet]

Yes, she died in fall 1971

[azure bay]

then who do we play as in Fall 1971?

[mystic magnet]

Maybe Laura's corrupted soul?

[azure bay]

that's what I think too

but we saw Laura going corrupted in 1972

[mystic magnet]

We play as corrupted soul in every season

the mirror confirm it

[mystic magnet]

makes sense

[azure bay]

disagree, we get to see the mirror only after acquiring the blue cube

that made the time literally go back

[mystic magnet]

So if her body was corrupted in 1972, the corrupted soul killing her in 1971 was William?

[azure bay]

believe me, there is no reason for William to kill Laura. He wanted to live

futhermore, he has no reason to exist

he transformed into Laura

[mystic magnet]

But we see a CS killing her in the moon

[azure bay]

and what exactly indicates it being William?

[mystic magnet]

This indicates that she was killed by a corrupted soul.

[azure bay]

it could be Dale, it could be her own inner demons that came after William

by the way

in The Cave we see Laura using the knife herself

[mystic magnet]

Or it is just a metaphor

[azure bay]

a metaphor implies inner demons

[mystic magnet]

I think the corrupted soul can be a metaphor for depression as well. I think Cube Escape Arles tried to make this kind of parallel

[azure bay]

depression, madness and other stuff are what I call inner demons

BTW, Arles could be a bit more literal

van Gogh killed himself while trying to get rid of a boogey man in the mirror

that could also be true for Laura

the problem is, van Gogh seemed liberated after that

she was like still hiding inside her old body

[floral mauve]

indeed

I never sure whether Laura is really dead

a floating corpse, moving CS

our definition of death

maybe the entity or personality "Laura" did die

[floral mauve]

the one that interacted with Bob

I dont get why cant Laura CS liberate from the corpse

she is gone (Laura entity)

why this sounds sad

[delicate atlas]

Sorry but I laughed at this