🤔｜theories

[azure bay]

machine+fuel=change the past

it was written on the notes

in this series devs don't have much instruments for exposition

either pantomimes, monologues and notes

the latter 2 are expected to be the most reliable

and, according to you, we can't trust either them

[sage token]

What exactly did the notes say?

[azure bay]

winter 1981

instead of "can I eat Harvey's egg?" we have "Change the past!" and "machine+fuel=change the past"

[sage token]

That doesn't prove that Laura saved herself?

[azure bay]

the notes say that she's changing the past

machine works

[sage token]

The past was changed. She saved Harvey.

But that doesn't mean she also saved herself

[azure bay]

Harvey was saved without the machine

the machine was used to make her human

in spring 15 years before

and then we see the aftermath

winter 1981, she's alive

[sage token]

1891?

[azure bay]

sry

1981*

[sage token]

When is that shown?

[azure bay]

the very ending

[slow ridge]

oh my god I'm so sorry I haven't entered discord in days! Can you repeat me the context of the question???

[azure bay]

there was none

I was just curious

[slow ridge]

oh theories about like, anything?

[azure bay]

yeah

[slow ridge]

mhmhmhmmhmmm

[sage token]

I'm trying to remember and I'm looking at the Wikipedia page, but I can't find anything that indicates that Laura doesn't die

[slow ridge]

talking about laura's death?

[sage token]

The time travel aspect around Laura's death

[sage token]

Okay, thank you

[azure bay]

why italic tho?

[sage token]

But now I'm wondering if time travel is actually used at all or if everything has just been altered memories

[sage token]

Because I've been trying to get a straight answer like this for five minutes

[slow ridge]

what if we talk about the guest's ages seen in the RL official blog? What is it based on?

[azure bay]

the latter still makes the notes a lie

[sage token]

If Seasons is a memory, then nothing is truly reliable

[azure bay]

but it's the dev who speaks to us via the notes

it's him lying to us then

the dev wants us to think that the past is changeble

otherwise there wouldn't be such note

[sage token]

Are we talking about like game notes or something or notes that are written in the game?

[azure bay]

in-game notes which, once again, are one of the few exposition instruments in this series

[sage token]

If it's an altered memory, there might not have even been notes in reality. The notes could have been inserted into the memory so Laura changes things, like Dales grandfather could have been inserted into his birthday memory

[azure bay]

I'm currently thinking above the lore

if there's a note it has some purpose

in this series notes are for exposition

if something is written on a note, it's for the player

the dev tells us that machine+fuel=change the past

at least he wants us to think that Laura changes the past

and I don't see any good reason not to follow this

if Laura doesn't change the past, it means that the dev is lying to us

and he'd better have a good reason for that

[azure bay]

I assume it originally had no purpose.

Their worldbuilding is soft as hell and if TWD:MH&F comes out of nowhere so do likely the Eilanders

however there's always a chance that the devs have done more work for that time and made the ages on purpose

these 2 possibilities lead us to 2 different conclusions

1. the ages were retconned or forgotten
2. the ages imply some info on Eilanders' fate

[slow ridge]

you may be right, but I think Rusty Lake plans things on future a lot

I think it's no coincidence

[azure bay]

What's not?

[sage token]

The White Door: Mary, Hank, and Fred?

[azure bay]

mental health

[late canyon]

And fishing

[sage token]

Ah lol

[floral mauve]

I have a theory, Eilanders respawn in different time period

after the day of sacrifice

it may take longer for one to the next reincarnation life but shorter for others

[bronze prism]

Maybe they reincarnated, and their age is based on how much time that happened

Do we have the year RL hotel happened?

[sage token]

Okay, so maybe then there are supposed to be multiple parallel universes existing side by side. This would make sense as there are multiple versions of Dale appearing in Paradox.

When I said that old timelines collapse in my head cannon, I mostly meant in my overall crossover-of-all-works-of-fiction head cannon.

[bronze prism]

Multiple universe theory makes sense because we see a tv-like Dale

So- yeah

[floral mauve]

I am confused

what are you talking about

[bronze prism]

Oop- it's the other one

Well

Something like: (drawing time)

[floral mauve]

?

[bronze prism]

Here

Idk how to explain so I made this

[floral mauve]

oh

em

based on logic

age is a concept made by human

plus

they are asura

[floral mauve]

so I think under the same circumstance

their age should be counted in objective years

also

Asura has a longer life span than humans

[prisma cosmos]

sooo, the entire background of ce birthday is pitch black

the wallpaper and floor is just black

[bronze prism]

Is this a bug your talking?

[ebon aspen]

could you send a screenshot at #bug-reports-old ?

[prisma cosmos]

yup its a bug

[bronze prism]

You should be in bug reports so they attend you better

The channels is the parrot sent

[prisma cosmos]

alright

[bronze prism]

(:}

[bronze prism]

Yes this ^

[prisma cosmos]

i just realized which channel i put this in, i meanto put it in cube escape help im so sorry

[bronze prism]

Oh it's ok, it happens

[hollow igloo]

What if the guests’ age is that of their human vessels? I mean this: the asuras we know also have a human appearance, that could be significantly different from their original form (Mr. Owl’s human form has nothing to do with Jakob). Since they are “immortal”, it’s plausible that this vessel is always the same, and doesn’t get older with the time passing. So for example, what if the old Granny Margaret got enlightened, obtaining the vessel of a 39 years old woman?

[azure bay]

1. We don't know for sure if the guests have human vessels in the 1st place

2. Owl's human form could pretty much be old Jacob

[hollow igloo]

1. of course is just a speculation. There is also another issue, regarding for example Harvey and the rest of the Hotel’s crew. The fact is: can animals get enlightened? Animals are part of the wheel indeed, so this is still an option. In that case, maybe they would not have a human form at all. But considering that the guests are most likely the members of the Eilander Family, and that they have real jobs interacting with humans (mr. Rabbit and Ms. Pheasant are both performers in their own way, and Mr. Boar is an ambassador), they could have a human form they use to interact with the outer world.

2. true, that may be the case, Jakob reincarnating in an older version of himself is an option

Also considering that Mr. Crow’s human form is similar to Aldous

[late canyon]

So, there's that puppet theater in Ms. Pheasant's room, with two puppets fighting. The first one hits the other with a dough roller thing (dunno what it's called originally) but it's (stereo-) typically a girl weapon. Then the other puppet destroys the first with an axe, but most importantly the first one then BURNS the other with a torch, that's why I think they symbolize Elisabeth and Jacob and from there theorize that the axe incident left her blind

[sage token]

Oh my goodness that makes so much sense

[late canyon]

It's solidly burnt into my headcanon

@hoary lichen

[azure bay]

He could gradually get older. Like Aldous did

[delicate atlas]

Wait what? Are you saying that Jacob is the reason Elizabeth is blind?

To me she's just blind because of genetic reasons or something

Like she was born blind but idk

[late canyon]

Yes, I think he is

[delicate atlas]

That would be weird since she doesn't hold any form of grudge towards him

If my brother made me blind I'd murder him 🗿

[sage token]

...

[delicate atlas]

I honestly think she loves her brother

[sage token]

And yet

She murdered him

[delicate atlas]

And didn't want him to get hurt

[late canyon]

Well... she burns him

[delicate atlas]

Idk it feels to me like she had no other choice

And got pressured by the other family members

She always helped him and guided him through paradise

And sometimes it felt like she was warning him

Idk

[late canyon]

It could be that she remembers and guilt made her suicide as Ms. Pheasant

[delicate atlas]

Yes

That's what I think too

[high talon]

Actually we can see in a childhood picture that Elizabeth had "non blind eyes" at some point could be me overexamining a picture

but i think she became blind

[delicate atlas]

I also think she's obsessed with vanity as Mrs. Pheasant because she never knew what she looked like back when she was Elizabeth

That's why she takes pictures of herself

[delicate atlas]

I guess she got blind out of trauma or something then

Or it just developed with time

[high talon]

couldve been a ritual that went wrong lets be honest Nicholas wasnt father of the year material

[delicate atlas]

True

[sage token]

I hate Daniel with every fiber of my being.
"My blood sugar is very low today."
Feed yourself you lazy creep.
"I hope I'm not the one who dies tonight."
You already know what the 10th plague is you little frog-pantsing-

Not to mention the whole killing Dale's parents thing and popping out of nowhere in Paradox

[delicate atlas]

THANK YOU

[high talon]

he couldve easily used both David/Elizabeth

[delicate atlas]

His name is David tho

[sage token]

*David then

[high talon]

lets be honest they were corrupted at a young age in a cult

[delicate atlas]

True

But he's dumb

[high talon]

i dont think we can blame the victims of a cult they were brainwashed

[delicate atlas]

Like naturally dumb

And it's a cult made up of family members so that makes it harder to escape

[sage token]

He also has a very punchable face

[high talon]

he was only 15 in paradise i dont

[delicate atlas]

Lmao

[delicate atlas]

Wait really?

[high talon]

think we should judge a literal minor

[delicate atlas]

He looks 23 🗿

[covert wyvern]

Gamers

[covert wyvern]

Punching fictional characters is not something to theorise about

[sage token]

W h a t

[covert wyvern]

that is all

[sage token]

Aye

[covert wyvern]

continue.

Him being 15 is asurprise, though.

[delicate atlas]

I guess he stays in the sun for too long to get that wrinkly

[high talon]

but yeah hes a child who was brainwashed thats how cults work i think we should give him some leeway he literally had nobody n Elizabeth was a child too soo they were kids in a shitty situation

[delicate atlas]

True

[high talon]

things wouldve been way better if they all couldve escaped

[delicate atlas]

Oh yeah about this subject of characters reincarnated

Do you think the lady of the lake is Mrs. Pheasant/Elizabeth?

[high talon]

also proof that Elizabeth had working eyes @ some point

[delicate atlas]

She's so mysterious

[sage token]

No the lady of the lake is the mom

[delicate atlas]

I'm so curious about her

[high talon]

so i assume in the 15 years when Jakob was gone smth happened

[sage token]

The lady with the hat. It's the same hat that the lady of the lake has in the painting of her

[high talon]

thats their mother

[delicate atlas]

No no I meant the lady who sings in theater

She's called the lady of the lake too

[sage token]

Yes I said that, Ram

[high talon]

o lmao

[delicate atlas]

The one with black hair and a blue dress

I want more content about her ngl

[high talon]

many people have and can share a title tho

[delicate atlas]

True

I want to know her story and her past lives

[late canyon]

I think the person in Theatre was simply an actress

[delicate atlas]

Idk, Pheasant song plays when she appears

So that's where I got the ideas from

[sage token]

I just meant he has a weasly look about him, very sorry ;-;

[delicate atlas]

Like, it's a subtle hint at her identity

[high talon]

tbh i would punch Nicholas instead

[sage token]

Oh really? I might need to replay it

[delicate atlas]

Wait

It's part of theatre ost

[sage token]

Oh my

[delicate atlas]

Each play on the stage has its own ost

When the lady of the lake appears "pheasant song" plays

Which is a slightly different version of Mrs. Pheasant theme

[late canyon]

Wow, weird. Thanks for pointing that out

[delicate atlas]

You're welcome

[hollow igloo]

I think that Caroline was so important to Mr. Owl that he wanted to commemorate her in some way, thus creating the play of “the lady of the lake”. That is why both Ms. Phesant and the actress in theatre wear the same costume: the are playing the same character.

[delicate atlas]

Oh that's cool

But I don't think Mrs. Pheasant is Coraline reincarnation

Since Coraline is deas

D*

And a cs

[hollow igloo]

Ms. Phesant is most likely Elizabeth

[delicate atlas]

Yes

[late canyon]

We never see Caroline in that dress

[hollow igloo]

True, but the portrait in Case 23 links Caroline with “The lady of the lake”

[delicate atlas]

True

I guess lady of the lake became a singer's stage name rather than an important title

Like it's a folklore kind of thing that changed with time and became modernized in the universe of rusty lake

[sage token]

So The Lady of the Lake in Arthurian legend...
If Rusty Lake does take a page from that, I have two three new theories.

1. There is more than one Lady of the Lake. A new one is chosen every now and then.
2. The lake from Arthurian legend is Rusty Lake, and is actually in Europe somewhere, as opposed to North America even though there is plenty of evidence of that (but yes I know it's often debated), because King Arthur was able to travel to the Lake.
3. Maybe Rusty Lake (and the landmarks around it) isn't stationary? Maybe it moves around to different locations at different times.

[hollow igloo]

I didn’t know this thing of the Arthurian Legend, cool! The first theory is very nice. I’m quite sure that RL is in Europe tough, why do you say it could be in North America?

[sage token]

Right off the top of my head, the kind of machine gun Rabbit uses was popular in America at that time, Prozac was a popular antidepressant in America, the way the police tape and/or cars looked in Case 23 (I can't quite remember) were in the American style. There's more but I'm having trouble remember atm.

[covert wyvern]

a lot of evidence points towards RL being NA, including all of tht^

Canada's a big conteder too bc of the newpaper name multiple lakes in canada being called Rusty Lake and the soldiers uniform we see in roots.

[hollow igloo]

That is very interesting, thank you!

[sage token]

I found the thing I was remembering

https://www.reddit.com/r/rustylake/comments/mq7qfa/since_usauroncreatedjobs_wants_to_ridicule_me/

[covert wyvern]

If you want my personal believes; I'm still set on Rusty Lake simply existing in a pocket dimension with a lot of ins and outs.

I absolutely hate the title of that post.

[sage token]

Aye Canada too, which is why I said North America

[covert wyvern]

But considering who posted it that makes sense.

anyway the post does point out some very good details.

I should point out though that Red-42, the person who posted this to the reddit is banned on this server for good reason

[sage token]

Oh no, I didn't know that

[covert wyvern]

that makes sense, you're not a moderator 🙂

I'm just letting you all know.

I'd prefer it if their name isn't mentioned on the server, that is all

[sage token]

Should I delete the link, then?

[covert wyvern]

I think it's fine, just a heads up.

[sage token]

Okay, got it 👍

[sage token]

That's also a possibility I strongly consider

[covert wyvern]

https://www.reddit.com/r/rustylake/comments/qkyfzc/nwh_theory_review_the_lakes_location/ our inhouse theorist has also written an extensive post on the matter

allow me to share that here aswell

[hollow igloo]

Plenty of theorists indeed

[covert wyvern]

hahah yes!

[sage token]

Oh cool! I can't quite load it, but I'll put it on my list of things to look at when I have Wi-Fi

[hollow igloo]

That post is very well written, there is a lot of useful info

[sage token]

I'm big on certain mythologies and when The Lady of the Lake was introduced in Rusty Lake, King Arthur and Excalibur were the first things I thought of

[hollow igloo]

I never really got in the Arthurian mythology,I knew that Excalibur came out of a lake, but i didn’t know that she was called “lady of the lake”

I studied it a bit some years ago in High School, but not so much unfortunately. That’s the best thing about talking with others

[sage token]

Excalibur was also returned to the lake when Arthur died. I have an idea for a fan art when the Lady of the Lake's arm is reaching out of the water, but holding a black cube instead of the sword.

[hollow igloo]

Ok now I want a sword deep down into RL

[hollow igloo]

That’s a cool image

[delicate atlas]

That's really interesting

I personally think the lake is in the Netherlands because of the family names being in dutch

The nature around it seems very European-esque to me

America doesn't look like that

I've never been to either so I might be wrong

[sage token]

There were a lot of Dutch settlers in Canada

[delicate atlas]

Regarding the stuff that are American that's my hot take about it but since things are only relevant if Americans are interested in them (in a way they're the trend setters) the game developers made all these thing American-esque to attract attention to it from Americans so they'd play it and it will be more popular

Since not being popular in America can make things not popular in other countries which likes to follow american trends

Hope that makes sense

Just like how mulan, a literally chinese legend, only gained traction when disney, an American company, made a movie about it

Now everyone knows about it

So basically if you want fame/popularity appeal to Americans

Or the american market

Since it's huge and all

That's why most media has American stuff in them even though they're not American

Or like how the game is made in the Netherlands but you play it in English and the voice acting is in English

And specifically in an American accent

To make it more "global"

Am I making sense 🗿?

[sage token]

Aye

[hollow igloo]

Makes sense

[floral mauve]

The lady of the lake can be Caroline or Pheasant/Elizabeth

we just dont know

I prefer to believe it is Caroline

But more evidence point at Pheasant

so

yeah

[frozen pier]

I just finished paradise and I'm ?¿¿?!¿"¿!?

im assuming the guests in hotel are the same people that die in the ending of paradise

but like???

they were humans when they killed me

how and when did they become animals?

[vague imp]

no one knows...

[late canyon]

They became enlightened and changed forms

[frozen pier]

when,,,

i still have to play the white door and paradox btw

if they reveal that in any of those

[late canyon]

So you have played Theatre?

[frozen pier]

yes

i didnt really understand it

[late canyon]

It explains the wheel of Samsara, the forms a soul can take after rebirth

Well, more shows than explanains

[frozen pier]

i

i need to finish the saga

and then replay theatre and roots because i understood nothing from both

[late canyon]

Roots is basically about the rebirth of William. You probably didn't find the, ahem, secret level

[floral mauve]

Samsara is important

[azure bay]

1. I don't think the songstress is a legit lady of the lake.

BUT

Devs recently confirmed that Laura is one

2. Evidence leading to America is mostly connected to Dale and his town which is far away from the lake.

The year on the chapel also contradincts America.

3. RL stays pretty consistent for at least 2 centuries

[azure bay]

There are no mountains in Netherlands

[delicate atlas]

Go to Wikipedia and read about samsāra, after that theatre will make sense.

[delicate atlas]

Wait what's that about Laura being a lady of the lake?

[delicate atlas]

WHAT

[azure bay]

IDK just an inside. We don't really know what being lady of the lake actually means

[covert wyvern]

I am dutch, I can confirm this.

[late canyon]

Devs have just said it in a Q&A

[sage token]

I never said that the singer was an actual Lady of the Lake. I think she's just an actress

[azure bay]

I guess I misunderstood u

[hollow igloo]

Oh, that is nice. I guess this confirms Lynn’s theory of existing more than a single Lady

[delicate atlas]

Where can I find this to read further into it?

[late canyon]

https://mrkanman.tumblr.com/post/660802627379068928/the-rl-q-and-a-panel-with-the-devs-finished-a

[azure bay]

It wasn't officially documented. We have it via fan witnesses

[delicate atlas]

Thank you!

[late canyon]

There... What nowherecaw said

[azure bay]

@covert wyvern remind me plz what answer you've personally seen there

[frozen pier]

I don't want to spoil

[azure bay]

It's an inspiration source

[frozen pier]

I will just play the game

oh

[covert wyvern]

Is this about the indie arena panel?

[delicate atlas]

It doesn't spoil the game, samsara is a religious thing in Hinduism

[frozen pier]

OH

[covert wyvern]

Im going to be real with you I can't say anything for certain nothing really stuck out for me, im sorry.

[frozen pier]

okay I'll go read about samsara

[covert wyvern]

I'm a terrible eyewitness!

[delicate atlas]

Enjoy! It's really interesting.

[azure bay]

I remember you revealing something. I just don't recall it

[covert wyvern]

I think I shouted somethings!

I should've juist recorded the entire thing hahah that'll forever haunt me

[hollow igloo]

This Q&A is gold for speculation btw

[late canyon]

It sure is

[hollow igloo]

Especially for the Harvey stuff

[azure bay]

@covert wyvern I've got it! It was about Harvey being ancient

[covert wyvern]

ahhh yes!

[sage token]

Ohh so I'm not a buffoon after all lol 😁

(No one called me that, I'm calling myself that)

[north wasp]

wait

could rose be

elizabeth

[shy pecan]

They have the same energy

All the red haired women in RL are subversive witches

[north wasp]

woah

[vague imp]

i have a question, what is the human form for harvey?

[hollow igloo]

We never saw it. Considering that Harvey is some sort of ancient creature, maybe he has none. We don’t know for sure. We know pretty much nothing about Harvey’s origin.

[vague imp]

i wandered a bit and i have a sort of response. i think harvey didn't have a human form...i think his "human form" is the parrot form. because we never saw a animal-human transform into a complete animal

[hollow igloo]

You are right, I think that might be the case.

[ebon aspen]

there are some theories on harvey being one of twd employees, since mr owl was in charge of the facility

but yeah, little evidence on how human harv could be

[hollow igloo]

Considering that TWD was already active during the ‘60, Harvey would be one of the latest employees to join TWD. I don’t think he is one of them though

Also, I think that maybe Harvey is not able to transform alone, and he needed Mr. Owl’s power

[vague imp]

harvey is not able to transform because he died in CB birthday easter egg that shows the end of RL hotel,

[ebon aspen]

but one thing is for sure, harvey was already a parrot by the time jakob turned into mr owl

so 2 possibilities

harv was a parrot originally that could become a human, just like the humans can become animals (not confirmed)

or he was the first elixir (or elixir-like substance) drinker

[ebon aspen]

actually he escaped bc mr owl turned him into a normal parrot

[hollow igloo]

Both humans and animals are stages of the wheel, so they are theoretically linked somehow

[ebon aspen]

ye ye, i mean, harv could be an animal that reached asura state somehow

[hollow igloo]

I guess so

[ebon aspen]

but i have my doubts about animals becoming asuras since the vanderbooms' dog doesnt do a shit

(or maybe he could turn into human but doesnt do it, who knows)

[vague imp]

the elixir explaines why havrey lived two centuries, but doesn't explain why he doesn't have a human form

[hollow igloo]

The fact is that according to the Q&A Harvey is probably much older than just 2 centuries

We will probably see more in the future

[ebon aspen]

the thing is, he prolly does have a human form

we just didnt see it yet

[vague imp]

harvey is a very very important character in the universe, is wierd why we didn't saw his human form

[hollow igloo]

Maybe once he was a human, or maybe is something different. Surely is an important character: remember that “we are back we’re it all began: Harvey’s egg”

[ebon aspen]

keeping mysteries is a rl thing after all!

im sure the devs are working on some big reveals

i mean, we need a lot of answers

and harv's true nature is 99% sure to be one of them

[vague imp]

wait, all began with harvey's egg? this could be metaphore, or be...

[hollow igloo]

It sure is a reference to Seasons, mainly Spring 1964

The first “paranormal” thing we see is the black cube coming out of Harvey’s egg, with moths and stuff

[ebon aspen]

foreshadows intensify

[vague imp]

this means, harvey is the creator of the cubes, the corrupted souls and other things

[hollow igloo]

Or maybe Harvey is so important that this refers to something much larger and ancient

[hollow igloo]

I don’t think so, I think that the circle of Samsara is something that exists because life exists, not because someone created it. The thing of memories creating cubes seems to be something natural and intrinsic. So I don’t think that someone created it

Maybe Harvey’s birth is somehow linked to the elixir. I had a theory (more of a fantasy actually) of Harvey being the original ancestor of the Vanderboom family. This because of the link he has with the family and the fact that a black egg is represented on the Vanderboom’s family emblem. So maybe he was the alchemist who first created a form of elixir which made him immortal, but instead of making him a superior being it turned him into an animal, some kind of defective elixir. But Harvey being an ancient creature, born from a black egg contradicts this fantasy. We have too few info to theorise a concrete and coherent answer.

[vague imp]

this is a good theory...this explaines how the vanderbooms know an elixir is possible to create

if wasn't an erlier elixir, they could stay in laboratory and try for months, or maybe years

[hollow igloo]

The Vanderboom family is one of alchemists. There is also a bottle on their insignia, symbolising that they probably were alchemists for generations. Also, remember that Aldous and William had met Mr. Owl, and he probably contacted them to recreate a form of the elixir. Maybe he noticed that his powers were meant to weaken over time, and so he needed to have some spare elixir to restore them

[vague imp]

this explaines why they made it.

[hollow igloo]

Also, in Roots the main ingredient of the elixir is a black egg. Just to say

[azure bay]

Harvey's called ancient by the devs thus I expect to see her in 20k BC. 22000yo without elixir

somehow

[vague imp]

i noted. i heard from razz jazz that harvey lived 2 centuries

[floral mauve]

At least

[azure bay]

I'm speaking of 220 centuries

[dry sparrow]

wow

where is this info mentioned

[azure bay]

It's a speculation based on announces and semi-official statements

1. a game 20k BC was teased back in 2019
2. Harvey was called ancient during Q&A of August

[dry sparrow]

oh

[digital oriole]

In Rusty Lake Hotel it seems that Mr.Rabbit escaped? When the supposed Mr.Rabbit (with brown fur) was enclosed in the sword box, right before we inserted the swords, we could see a white rabbit in a black cloak skitter by the window; in the end scene when we clicked on the cubes, every other cube showed a black frizzled corrupted soul and only Mr.Rabbit's cube showed the same white rabbit in a black cloak. It should be feasible since he's a magician, but I have no clue as to where he went!
Also, I read Mr.Rabbit's letter in Cube Escape: Birthday but I still don't understand why he had to slaughter Dale's family. If I remember correctly he said it's the only way he could escape this state/fate (didn't quite get the handwriting,) but what state is he talking about??

[sage token]

We can see the white rabbit even before the brown one dies.

There's a theory that Rabbit is going through his own memory-hopping journey like Dale is

[digital oriole]

really? where

[sage token]

Out the window. Same place you said, but he can show up at any time

[digital oriole]

it's implied (from my pov) that Dale is sent by Mr.Crow and Mr.Owl to help Laura
what is Rabbit doing there tho 0.0

[high talon]

Maybe he broke through/figured out how to do it alone without Mr.Owls/Mr.Crows help

also could be me overthinking but David wears a "white" rabbit mask in Paradise

so maybe the got the wrong Mr.Rabbit, and the real one was that one

[sage token]

hisses at David
I no like him

[digital oriole]

so the brown rabbit was actually a substitute? (R.I.P. poor fellow)

[high talon]

yes

Atleast thats what i think, he was choosen to die to no fault of his own

[digital oriole]

which he, the brown one or the white one? XP

[sage token]

But that is interesting; it never dawned on me before

[high talon]

I think David would be the white one (considering his mask)

and the brown one was someone else

[digital oriole]

the rest of the family all had faults?

[high talon]

Well yeah?

Lmao

[digital oriole]

what about the little sister? (what's the name of the little sister again

[sage token]

Elizabeth

[covert wyvern]

The mask would line up w/ the white.

[high talon]

David was born in 1781, hotel takes place in 1893 so

1893-1781=112

[sage token]

She's not so great either imo

[high talon]

Mr.Rabbit (hotel one) is 39 years old

[covert wyvern]

Ye but asuras have an extended lifespan so loke

Like*

[high talon]

checkmate the rabbit in hotel isnt David

[covert wyvern]

Yes that'd

That's

Interesting.

The hotel guest age lol

[digital oriole]

none of the family members are supposed to be imo

[high talon]

tbh lets be honest Nicholas was the one at fault the most from what we've seen

[digital oriole]

none of the ages for the other guests line up either ?

[high talon]

i dunno we dont have birth years for the rest

except for Jakob/Caroline (but we dont know the rest, unless i missed smth)

[digital oriole]

could deduce them roughly tho

[high talon]

i guess?

[digital oriole]

what i'm confused about is how the ages for the hotel guests are obtained

[high talon]

thats a good question?I think Mr.Owl either got them wrong out spite or he just forgor

i mean getting burned alive by your own (trusted?) family members surely leaves a mark on you

[digital oriole]

ahahahaahahahaa damn

speaking of which, is it indicated how mr.owl survived being burned alive?

[high talon]

ig the lake took his sacrifice but he was "reincarnated" somehow

[digital oriole]

oooof! complicated XP

[hollow igloo]

I think the rabbits are the same, the one with the white and the brown fur. The reason I say it is because of Paradox chapter 2: in that scenario, mr. rabbit is called “Mr. Eilander, the magician”. Given that the only D. Eilander is David, and given that Hotel’s Mr. Rabbit is indeed a magician, this seems to confirm that the three of them are the same character, just in different stages of existence: David is the human, Hotel’s Mr. Rabbit is the Asura, the white rabbit is the corrupted soul. Also, I think that the white rabbit is actually wearing a rabbit mask to cover his true corrupted self: this is because in Paradox Ch. 2 we briefly see a live action version of mr. Rabbit, who is clearly wearing a paper mask, very different from Mr. Crow’s head, also seen in live action. Another thing: if we look closely, in Birthday Mr. Rabbit’s hands are not white, but brown. My guess is that, considering that he is presented as a killer, he is wearing leather gloves. In paradox he has human hands, but this is probably a projection of Dale’s mind.
Regarding the white rabbit appearing in hotel, I would treat it as foreshadowing, or maybe is Mr. Rabbit’s corridors soul who is somehow watching from the future (given that time is a very relative concept in Rusty Lake)

*corrupted soul

[digital oriole]

Thank you very much for the explanation!
When did the game series introduce the concept of the asura btw? Which stage of the wheel (as shown in theatre) in does it correspond to?
I'd personally prefer to regard the passing white rabbit as his corrupted soul watching from the future! makes more sense to me

nice pfp btw, looks like a cutish corrupted soul to me XP

[hollow igloo]

It’s more of a theory than an explanation, I would never dare to say that my speculations are “the truth”, because the only people knowing the true story are the authors. But still thank you!

The concept of Asura, and the concept of Samsara/wheel of life if first introduced in CE Theatre: if you remember the last riddle, the one with the mill, you use photos and the picture of a wheel to correctly order the parts of the mill.

[digital oriole]

yep yep yep

did not quite get the Hindi text tho

[hollow igloo]

That wheel is a representation of the Buddhist Wheel of Life, also known as the circle of Samsara

If you translate the texts, they match perfectly with those of the six stages of the wheel of life

[digital oriole]

an Indian person that I know translated the fish (blue) text as "pilgrim" and that was confusing af...

[hollow igloo]

I found this on the internet, the top and the bottom one are swapped btw

[digital oriole]

icic

[hollow igloo]

I checked Wikipedia, nothing more actually

But the fish should represent there Animal state

[digital oriole]

what about the crow?

[hollow igloo]

The Woman represents the human world

The crow is literally the Asura

The question mark is the Deva, so it is god

[digital oriole]

so mr.crow, mr.owl, and harvey are essentially demigods? 0.0

[hollow igloo]

The forest, which if you think for a sec represents the bottom of the lake, is hell (don’t remember the correct term right now)

[hollow igloo]

Actually, yes!

[digital oriole]

and so were the guests of rusty lake hotel?

[hollow igloo]

I guess so

[digital oriole]

they seem quite mortal though

is there any character that we know of who reached the deva stage?

[hollow igloo]

Not yet

Let me show you one thing

If you look closely, this is a mirror

[digital oriole]

how do i look closely ?

[hollow igloo]

You can see Dale’s reflection

[digital oriole]

oooh that's in Theatre right?

[hollow igloo]

Yes

[covert wyvern]

huh taht's actually

an eat detail

[digital oriole]

an eat detail

[covert wyvern]

ye a typo,

I make em frequently

get used to it.

[digital oriole]

lol I am already used to typos I just can't help remarking at some that turn out to be particularly amusing

[covert wyvern]

fair enough.

[hollow igloo]

So I guess the candidate to become the true Deva is Dale, which in theory should become Mr. Owl’s successor

And this links to another thing

[covert wyvern]

here in case you couldn't tell I tweaked the values a bit to make it more visible

hope this helps.

[digital oriole]

thank you! yes it is clearer when it's brighter

[digital oriole]

the deer head?

[hollow igloo]

More of the Owl actually

Given that this is just a different representation of the same wheel, we can try to make connections

For the Eilander’s cult, the Owl as a great religious value

[covert wyvern]

just adding this final one

[hollow igloo]

Perfection

So, I think that the Deva in Paradise’s wheel is represented by an Owl

[late canyon]

Hddfkhjdfcyvibidg

[hollow igloo]

This means that in the Eilander’s plan, Jakob was meant to become a Deva, not an Asura (the deer). However, even though Mr.Owl is definitely the most powerful being seen in RL, he is not a Deva.

[high talon]

it looks like this:

[covert wyvern]

brb writing an angst fic of Owl dealing with that failure for multiple centuries

[late canyon]

Lmao

[digital oriole]

good observatioN!

[late canyon]

Poor Jacob

[hollow igloo]

They massacred our boy

Literally

[hollow igloo]

It is! I drew it over the facebook hugging emoji lol

[covert wyvern]

care react got corrupted 😔 (anyway we're drifting a bit off topic here)

[digital oriole]

work of genius

[covert wyvern]

I will be amazed by this for a hot minute to come, though.

[digital oriole]

why Dale though

does he have any origin story other than the fact that his family was slaughtered by Rabbit and that he likes smoking cigars?

[hollow igloo]

He is also someone who is very likely to get corrupted (given traumas, alcohol abuse, ichtiophobia,

But maybe he is kinda able to control is corruption

And accept it to some regards

He is also very intelligent

[high talon]

trauma does that to you lmao

[digital oriole]

not if he has to be controlled by me no he isn't

from where did you conclude that he has a phobia of fish tho?

[hollow igloo]

Paradox ch.2

[covert wyvern]

its in his paradox doc-

yep!

[hollow igloo]

Also in the paradox film when he sees the fish he closes the drawer immediately and looks away

[digital oriole]

how does a fear of fish corrupt you tho

[hollow igloo]

The point is that his mind his very fragile

That is why in paradox he needs “new minds”

[digital oriole]

ahh makes sense

how does it work out if he sacrifices himself to save Laura as in the secret ending of chapter 1 tho?

[covert wyvern]

a branch in thetimeline, probably.

[hollow igloo]

Something like that

I prefer to think that a part of Dale’s mind, the one obsessed with saving Laura, was able to achieve peace by sacrificing, while another part accepted the consequences of his corrupted self and finally found the golden cube, the “true elixir”

In the two chapters of paradox it is if we are playing as two different versions of Dale, and in fact we see many versions of Dale trapped in the Paradox Room

[digital oriole]

ohh wow 0.0

[digital oriole]

what does giving the golden cube to the elevator boy do tho?

[hollow igloo]

We don’t know. As players, it means the we have found all the achievements, so I could mean the Dale is ready to reach enlightenment

Something of a meta-narration

[digital oriole]

That does make sense! Thank you

[hollow igloo]

I’d treat the secret ending of ch.1 as the ending of Seasons, if it makes sense

[hollow igloo]

Always nice to theorize, thank you too!

[digital oriole]

Seasons puzzled me immensely...

when viewed in combination with Case 23, for instance, it's not even the same apartment

or is it?

[hollow igloo]

I think it is the same apartment

Just a different room

[covert wyvern]

Ye different rooms would check out I think ^

[digital oriole]

Off topic: Laura has a lot of wasted space in her home -w-

[hollow igloo]

The strange thing is that in Seasons the room has no door

But in seasons we are visiting the memories of a corrupted Laura, so in all of her depression and despair maybe the absence of a door means that she wasn’t able to see a way out at the time

[covert wyvern]

@digital oriole please don't use spoilertags for this.

[digital oriole]

I like that interpretation!

[sage token]

Well in Case 23, there's a doorway to the room in Seasons, but when you click on it, it disappears

[digital oriole]

Aight! In the other servers I'm in spoiler tags are sometimes used when you say something off topic, but I guess rules work differently T-T

[hollow igloo]

Maybe that is Dale starting to lose sight of reality?

The reason why the door disappears i mean

[sage token]

Or maybe the Seasons room is a pocket dimension?
I'm seeing pocket dimensions everywhere 😅

[digital oriole]

It's also theorized that in Case 23 we're already in Dale's memories

[hollow igloo]

The room we see in Seasons is in Laura’s memory

[bronze prism]

Something weird I've noticed about seasons is that there is no door

So it's probably just distorted memories

[hollow igloo]

Could be given that Dale’s narrator voice speaks using the past tense

[sage token]

Yeah that's what we're talking about.
Again, in Case 23 we see a door to the Seasons room which disappears.

[covert wyvern]

They most definitely do, so be sure to intently study #✅｜rules

[hollow igloo]

But maybe Dale is just getting crazy dealing with Laura’s murder, and this is kinda confirmed in Paradox Ch.2, in the same document we spoke above

[sage token]

Though, Dale's office is also without a door

[hollow igloo]

Exactly! He too wasn’t able to see a way out, but more of a “professional” sense: something like “I would not get out of my office until I solved this case!”

At least i think he got so obsessed with Rusty Lake that his mind, already fragile, suffered a lot more

Just like us theorists

[digital oriole]

Speaking of the office, it's the same place in Robert's memories too in The White Door

[sage token]

I don't think Dale's actually going crazy. :|
Nor do I think Bob was crazy in TWD.
I think Owl and/or the Lake was messing with their heads. Making them see things so outlandish that when they told someone else, that someone thought they were crazy.

[digital oriole]

soo I still think Dale was already in his memories or some dimension created for both him and Robert by the Lake??

[hollow igloo]

Probably the lake has some kind of influence over some people, that is definitely possible

[bronze prism]

Crazy is a deeeep word

I think he was- confused?

[hollow igloo]

The correct term is “losing sight of reality”

As said in Paradox Ch.2

[bronze prism]

Yeahh^^

[sage token]

Like, Bob only had that episode with the weird party and hole-in-head poking after the lady from the White Door visited him and gave him their card.
Coincidence? I think not

[bronze prism]

Whoa

[azure bay]

I think that the door or lack there of indicates nothing. We have doors in some memories we have no doors in places that are seemingly IRL

[bronze prism]

In case 23 the door just vanish right?

Like woosh

[digital oriole]

wdym only?

[sage token]

Did he have an episode before her visit? Not that I remember

[azure bay]

Johnsson

[digital oriole]

He ehh...had Harvey by Day 2？

[sage token]

We click on it and it fades away, like a portal closing

[sage token]

Nothing weird happened there.

[digital oriole]

Harvey?

[hollow igloo]

Remember that in TWD we are visiting Bob’s dreams, so they are very likely to be altered

[azure bay]

TLS is a fever dream Bob sees after shooting himself

[sage token]

TLS?

[azure bay]

I think the only altered dream was the 6th one

[sage token]

Pardon?

[azure bay]

The Lost Soul

[sage token]

Ah

[hollow igloo]

I used the wrong term, i mean altered in a natural way, as that when you dream your brain does strange stuff all the time.

[sage token]

Is that the name of the level? 😅

[digital oriole]

oh I figured Harvey's appearance at Johnsson could qualify as weird lol

[azure bay]

maybe. However there are some real memories Owl is interested in and they have to be more or less precise

[hollow igloo]

Of course, what we see in TWD is happened in some way

[digital oriole]

TWD didn't show a good deal of Robert's memories of Laura, which is why I find it hard to grasp why they are of so much value to Owl

[hollow igloo]

Except probably for TLS club

[azure bay]

good point. They are only mildly related to Laura

at least most of them

more Bob-centered

[hollow igloo]

Maybe he was more interested in Robert as a patient

[azure bay]

unsure here. "Without her his mind is useless"

[hollow igloo]

True, I think I didn’t get Owl’s true intentions then

[azure bay]

no one gets, as far as I know

[hollow igloo]

Anyway Bob is the only one known to get corrupted and get back in his human form spontaneously

(Exclude Dale which is a special case)

And it is the only Level 5 patient in TWD documents

If i were Owl, studying memories at TWD (I think that is the reason behind the creation of TWD), I would be very interested in a case like this

Maybe they want his memories because he is in that state?

[azure bay]

I recall seeing others

[hollow igloo]

Let me check quickly

Ok, there is another one

Leonie Poisson, suicidal thinking

And also Yuliana Kazantseva, Alzheimer

[digital oriole]

her last name means Fish which idk is a prank or a clue XP

ah, nvm

[hollow igloo]

Fish as a symbol of death? 🤔

[delicate atlas]

I think because he has some links to Laura. There are hypothesis that they were neighbors because of the tree when Harvey was at the end of birthday being the same one beside Laura's house. And some other connections I can't remember

[hollow igloo]

Dale says he had never met her before, so I doubt they were neighbors

Anyway thank you @azure bay for the correction

[delicate atlas]

Maybe he wants his memories because they're corrupted/depressing? I mean twd is a mental institution after all. And mental illness seems like an important element of making corrupted souls and black cubes. Like Van Gogh and Laura.

[azure bay]

I expect it being related to Laura and her place in Owl's plan

[delicate atlas]

I think the "without her, his mind is useless line" means without Laura's death, which made Bob depressed in the first place, his soul won't be corrupted and his memories won't be extracted as black cubes

[azure bay]

the problem is, TWD doesn't look like extraction

it looks like the opposite

restoring them

[delicate atlas]

Oh I never noticed that, you're right

Maybe owl is just experimenting

[digital oriole]

good point concerning van gogh!

[digital oriole]

it does, but why were they lost in the first place?

[delicate atlas]

And seeing what can he do to memories other than extracting them

Maybe he's trying to cure mental illness?

Or like, stop black cubes from existing?

Idk

[digital oriole]

locking them up doesn't seem like the best way to do so tho lmao

[delicate atlas]

The only thing I'm sure he wants to do is create a new elixir

[azure bay]

They were lost after he shot himself. In Theatre the reason was Dale extracting them through a hole. In TWD could be just brain damage

[delicate atlas]

Crazy science I guess

[hollow igloo]

Because Bob lost his memories already when he shot himself, damaging his brain, which later made him corrupted. So to get his memories they first had to restore them out of his unconscious, thus the need of dreams

[azure bay]

ah, another thing. Between Theatre and TWD was Case 23

Bob gave his memories to Dale

[hollow igloo]

Maybe it was his last memory

He lost it by getting corrupted

[azure bay]

IDK what memory it was and what happened after he shot himself

[delicate atlas]

They were all memories of Laura

[azure bay]

Bob's story is still very mysterious and confusing

[delicate atlas]

Her house, her pictures, her clothes etc.

[hollow igloo]

As we know, extracting bad memories can cause the corruption of the body

[delicate atlas]

Yes

[hollow igloo]

We cannot know for sure

Maybe the last thing keeping him human

[delicate atlas]

In theatre I mean

[hollow igloo]

You are right

[azure bay]

It's not the lack of memories that renders people corrupted. It's their very extraction

and not every time

[delicate atlas]

Oh, maybe it's because when a memory (especially a bad one) is extracted, you technically take a part of them and who they are and the experience they went through?

So it's like you're violating their minds

Which angers them

[azure bay]

that's my theory

[delicate atlas]

And turns them into cs

[hollow igloo]

Really like this interpretation, and I agree with that

It’s like you are taking away the true essence of a human being

[azure bay]

I see negative experience as the core reason for every corruption. It could be depression, it could be a painful death and it could be uncareful extraction of bad memories

[hollow igloo]

I think is very much linked to memories, but it is true that this is specific of the dark memories. Maybe because dark experiences are those that really shape a person in becoming who they are. So Dark memories could be the true essence of the human state.

Also I think that since CS are parts of the wheel, you can become corrupted even through rituals (the elixir)

[azure bay]

Bob's corruptions in Case 23 and TWD were not connected to memories. So wasn't the one of van Gogh

[hollow igloo]

Of course people don’t turn corrupted as they are, they have to be in a certain mental state. So maybe Van Gogh was someone who could get corrupted, and in fact he saw his corrupted soul in his alcoholic delirium in Arles. This doesn’t mean he really transformed.
Bob suffered from a severe amnesia, plus the trauma. So it may be linked is some way to his lack of memories.

But still, you are right saying negative experiences are the key for a spontaneous corruption

Also, if the extraction of memories causes a soul to become corrupted, maybe that is how the elixir works: the sacrifice dies, losing his memories which are then given to the other one to become enlightened. So the elixir is just a way of extracting memories and transfer their essence to someone else.

[azure bay]

William did not lose any memories

plus, memory extraction doesn't guarantee corruption, according to Owl

[hollow igloo]

How can you say that? At the beginning of roots, you don’t know who you are playing as. Corrupted souls are moved by instinct. Maybe you understand your Identity only after, the confirmation arrives when you meet Rose. Maybe in the 60 years passed you slowly understood your identity and purpose.

[azure bay]

because in The Cave William's memories were explicitly shown staying in Laura's head

maybe they are deep so Laura doesn't remember them but they are there

[hollow igloo]

True, but maybe the elixir, when performed correctly, makes this processcertain

[hollow igloo]

William still lives in Laura according to the Q&A, so this makes sense

[azure bay]

so no memory loss

[azure bay]

BTW it was also said that Laura was built on William which corresponds buddhism

there is no separate William entity inside Laura

[hollow igloo]

They are one and the same, that is right

[azure bay]

glad we agree here

[hollow igloo]

One thing though, I probably missed this: when is it show in cave that William’a memories live in Laura?

[delicate atlas]

I think it's because both shot themselves in the head, which is where memories reside. But this might be a stretch on my part

[delicate atlas]

I always believed that Laura actually remembered her past life as William so that was a huge contribution to her depression. She felt guilt for being born through all that trauma and suffering the Venderbooms had to go through. So she unlived herself. But that's just my speculation.

[azure bay]

the mural

William makes the elixir

and later a cube comes out Laura's CS containing its formula

[delicate atlas]

The drawings on the wall

[azure bay]

we still need evidence of Laura remembering William. If that's the case we'll know about it in the upcoming Laura game

[delicate atlas]

It would be great to have more games about her

[azure bay]

but usually you don't recall your past life

[delicate atlas]

I really like her character

Speaking of her

What was that tree thingy in the cabin that could defeat cs?

Why can it do that?

What defeats a cs?

[azure bay]

no idea

[delicate atlas]

There's also an alternative solution that makes the star shape a pentagram instead

[azure bay]

I'd say pentagon IS the alternative solution

[delicate atlas]

No wait that was another shape I forgot its name

[hollow igloo]

Ok, I got it now, thanks. So Laura’s memories could be important because they contain a trace of the elixir’s formula

[delicate atlas]

Yeah this one

[azure bay]

Laura's but not Bob's

[delicate atlas]

Yes, this is what I was thinking

[hollow igloo]

Not Bob’s of course

[azure bay]

they create elixir from her memories. The golden cube is one of its forms I believe

[hollow igloo]

True

[delicate atlas]

Yes

[azure bay]

so the question of Bob's purpose is still open

[delicate atlas]

Maybe he's the plan b

In case something happens to Laura's memories

[hollow igloo]

I think it is something like a very interesting research subject

[delicate atlas]

Like how she repelled in the mill

[hollow igloo]

That may be possible

[delicate atlas]

Unexpectedly

Now I want more Bob games

He's an interesting character as well

[azure bay]

)))))))))

What would you expect to see there?

[delicate atlas]

Idk honestly

Maybe something that makes twd makes sense

[azure bay]

As I think about it, such game doesn't require Bob

Just Owl and TWD

[delicate atlas]

Good point

But they made a game about Albert that idk the purpose of

It's not that far fetched to create a game about Bob in more depth or something

[hollow igloo]

I think of TWD as a research institute more than anything else. We know that Mr. Owl is sort of a Scholar, he used the guests not only to kill them, but also because he was interested in their researches. So after the guests died he had to find another way, thus creating TWD to study memories and stuff like that.

[delicate atlas]

After he killed them himself lol

[hollow igloo]

He probably needed fresh memories for the lake

[delicate atlas]

Yeah that might be it

[hollow igloo]

Like in Paradise

[delicate atlas]

Thanks for this entertaining conversation guys! I always wanted to discuss RL theories with someone. Glad I found this channel ❤

[hollow igloo]

I think I have another theory on how the Elixir works, more abstract but still more coherent. This time, more than a transfer of memories from one individual to another (contradicted by what @azure bay and @delicate atlas said, and also by the fact that Caroline’s corrupted soul still keeps his self-consciousness), is based on the concept of balance. Balance seems an important concept in RL: “balance the substance of your past lives” is the most immediate reference. But still, we said that a situation of mental instability could lead to corruption. Mental instability = absence of balance. So speaking of the elixir, what if, in order to get someone to reach a higher state of consciousness (enlightenment) there must be someone to get into a lower state (corruption) in order to balance the two things? What do you think?

[delicate atlas]

OMG THAT MAKES SO MUCH SENSE

I was gonna mention the ending of the cave

Laura's cs gets kinda "transplanted" into Dale

For him to reach enlightenment and for her as well

As if they were competing on who will get it in paradox

And Dale won eventually and got enlightened and got the golden cube

And Laura was sacrificed for that

This also aligns with what happened in paradise (Jacob and Coraline being sacrificed for the rest of their family to be enlightened) and the same with William and Aldous

And there's always this parallel between an owl and a deer

Owls gets sacrificed and deers are the one sacrificing

Jacob is the owl and his dad was the deer

Dale will become a deer if Mr. Owl's time is up

And the two animals are on the opposite side of the wheel in Paradise

So it's safe to say sacrifices are necessary for enlightenment

[hollow igloo]

That is sure

Also, remember that in the “original” elixir, the Caroline-Jakob one, the actually merge together into a single being. This does not happen in the William-Aldous elixir, but in Cave something similar happens: Dale is in a sort of intermediate state, flickering between human and corrupted, so in a way he has all the natures inside him.

[delicate atlas]

Oh yeah and there's a secret level where you get him Jacob's owl mask to wear

[hollow igloo]

I associate the deer more as a symbol of killing more than anything. All the characters associated with a deer are killers: Dale, Nicholas and also…

[delicate atlas]

The bitch TM

But in the case of albert it's a deer skull

I wonder why

Maybe because it puts more emphasis on death this way

Also there was that one cs in the cabin who had deer antlers

And in paradox there was a real deer who gets decapitated later

Though I think the animals shown in RL are more for their symbolism, so for example deer symbolizes guidance and protection

Owls are obviously wisdom lol

There was something about fish and freedom or something like that but I'm not sure

And Crows for jinx ofcourse

[hollow igloo]

Mr. Deer?

He is stil around the lake

[delicate atlas]

Oh yeah that must be him

Why is he and Mr. Rabbit the only free ones

While the rest sort of disappeared

[hollow igloo]

I see how Albert protected his family lmao

[delicate atlas]

Technically, he was protecting himself 🗿

[hollow igloo]

You are kinda right

In a very sadistic way

But you are right

[delicate atlas]

Wait I'll google deer skull symbolism

Might find something interesting

[hollow igloo]

Maybe they have some kind of altered symbolism

[delicate atlas]

Just what I thought

[hollow igloo]

Legit

[delicate atlas]

He wears a skull because he represents death

I mean he was literally called the devil in the tarrot games so...

[hollow igloo]

Devil-> Demon ->Asura

[delicate atlas]

OH

Maybe the past within is about that?

[hollow igloo]

Dunno, maybe

Don’t mind it too much

I tend to take long journeys with my mind

[delicate atlas]

Lol same

I love overreading into things

Even Jojo's bizarre adventures didn't survive my overanalysis

[hollow igloo]

You got me curious, but it’s not the right place

[delicate atlas]

We can dm if you're interested

[hollow igloo]

No prob for me

[delicate atlas]

Cool

[azure bay]

It speaks about past lives and not about mental state of the individual or the collective one

[hollow igloo]

Yeah I know, just to say that the concept of balance is present in the series

And it is somehow relevant

[azure bay]

We need more to say that this concept goes further

More evidence

[cloud cradle]

Hey where can I learn about Christmas event?

[covert wyvern]

@cloud cradle check the document pinned in #🩸｜general-chat

[cloud cradle]

Thx

[hollow igloo]

Yeah I know, just theories and fantasies. But still it’s fun.

[azure bay]

It contradicts samsara. Souls don't merge, Owl has no traces of Caroline.

I think she dissolved in him and stopped existing

[delicate atlas]

I think she only gave him her powers over the lake

And her memories of the elixir

[azure bay]

What powers?

[azure bay]

Then he'd be able to make it but in The Cave it's apparently not the case

[delicate atlas]

She seems to have some sort of control over the lake anger and memories

[hollow igloo]

That might be one hypothesis. But maybe the elixir doesn’t always work exactly in the same way. The Samsara experience is somehow unique, as William’s is the only true “reincarnation” we see in the RL universe. So maybe they merged in that case. But I agree with you if you say that Owl is Jakob, and not Caroline.

[azure bay]

I'm speaking of the original samsara. Everything changes there. Only souls are constant

[delicate atlas]

And that's what Nicolas wanted her for

[azure bay]

Did he?

[delicate atlas]

There's that one scene with a cube in his hand that he's trying to access and see but he can't

Only Jacob can

So I think Coraline can do that, too

That's why they sacrificed her

[azure bay]

He could. He couldn't find what he needed

[delicate atlas]

And the painting in case 23 "The Lady of The Lake" has her in it

And the one in the chapel

[azure bay]

We don't know what being the lady means

[delicate atlas]

Good point

What if it means growing up there?

Or living there?

[azure bay]

Or caring about the lake

[delicate atlas]

Laura, Coraline, and Elizabeth all grew up there

[delicate atlas]

That's a good point too

[azure bay]

I reckon the teased game about Laura will give some answer

[delicate atlas]

There's a game about Laura?

I mean a new one

[azure bay]

"The story continues" achievement

[delicate atlas]

Oh right

A game about her childhood would be pretty cool

[azure bay]

I assume there could be more

Her stay at MH&F is still pretty vague

I have no idea why Owl would need her there

And then let her go

[delicate atlas]

I always thought that was the cabin

I remember someone saying the cs in the cabin is the one who killed Laura

It followed her from the cabin to her house and attacked her

Or that it simply traumatized her so she kept seeing it everywhere though it's not really there

[azure bay]

The cabin has seemingly nothing to do with Owl's plan of the search of a successor

[delicate atlas]

Good point

And thats weird tree is still mysterious

Maybe it will all connect in future games

Just like how the premium games connected and explained so much

[azure bay]

Returning to Owl, I agree that he inherited her role but I don't think it was due to something supernatural. Why can't you just do things you think are beneficial?

After Laura was confirmed to be another lady, I don't think that it's about ruling the lake since Owl still does that job

[delicate atlas]

I hope they'll explain that in future games

[azure bay]

Well their explanations aren't usually clear

[delicate atlas]

It's ok, we can always speculate

At least we'd have some context

[hollow igloo]

I tend non to take the original Samsara in al literal way, more of an inspiration. Like that explaining the nature of the being in the RL universe, but not following the Samsara rules in a strict way

[hollow igloo]

That was to answer to this comment

[azure bay]

But we see no Caroline in Owl

His past is Jacob

He doesn't make any new elixir

[hollow igloo]

I agree with you on that

It was to say that what happens is different than what happens with William

Both visually and lorewise

[azure bay]

What do u mean?

What happens to one and what happens to the other?

@hollow igloo

[hollow igloo]

Sorry, I was driving

What I am saying is that in one case, Caroline’s soul disappears, and we now nothing about her. In another case, William’s corrupted soul is still there, doing his stuff

After Aldous got enlightened I mean

[azure bay]

I think that's because William was a human and Caroline was a CS

However there's an alternative

[hollow igloo]

I think that she becoming a CS is part of the ritual

[azure bay]

Talking about my alternative

I think it's not becoming a CS but dying

The moment of elixir sacrifice could probably take place long before the ritual itself

Dale's case is a lot similar here

We have Laura who is already dead but also says "one of us will die"

And we have Dale that "can't save her unless he sacrifices humself"

I assume the sacrifice could be done and redone retroactively

[hollow igloo]

That is a concrete option

[azure bay]

Caroline and Laura die in the timeline where Jacob and Dale get enlightenment

[hollow igloo]

And you say that there are alternative timelines where for example Laura is saved and Dale dies

[azure bay]

But if it's not them to benefit from the elixir (whether it's luck or choice) the timeline rebuilts so Laura or Caroline are the ones to ascned now and Dale or Javob to die in the past

[delicate atlas]

Yes, in paradox there is an indication of alternative timelines

And in birthday and seasons I think

When you "change the past" using the blue cube

It changes in an au

Rather than the current one you're in

So it doesn't affect the future you're in

[hollow igloo]

I have an idea about how time works around the lake, but it is too complicated to reason upon now. Let’s say that I agree with the timeline idea in some way, so all that you say makes sense to me

[floral mauve]

The ritual is about sacrificing someone, that person should be dead. In Caroline's case, her memories were separated into 10 black cubes after she got burned on fire (which is quite mysterious), and from the hotel, we can see that CS can grow or based on it? somehow, but I dont think she becomes the CS like Bob or Dale, not even like Laura (whose corpse is)

[hollow igloo]

The CS in Paradise is Caroline, this is certain. She says that the memories are hers, she guides her son in every way possible. She still retains part of her consciousness and exists independently from her bones, and she is the first CS that we see speaking. So she is particular for sure, but for example William’s CS came out of his corpse, and the guest’s CSs exist without the body even existing anymore, since they got eaten by the others. So CSs are not necessarily linked to someone’s body. Also, Laura is dead well before she gets corrupted. Bob and Dale (and Van Gogh in some way) are the only people we see getting corrupted without being dead.

Of course for the ritual someone has to die. We see this in another case of the elixir: James and the dog. The dog got immortal, and James died. Still, James did not get corrupted, and the dog, even becoming immortal, didn’t reach another stage of the wheel. So maybe this is because the elixir doesn’t work properly on animals, or maybe James, not being an alchemist like his uncle, messed up something creating a partial elixir. Whatever the case, James still dies, so that is definitely an effect of the elixir.

What do you mean what you say that CSs can grow? I don’t think I get it

[digital oriole]

How did Bob survive shooting himself in the head tho? Never quite could figure that out

[hollow igloo]

There are some cases of people that survived an headshot. They suffered brain damage (for Bob is amnesia), but they survived nonetheless. Also, maybe he was rescued and taken to an hospital as soon as possible ( given that for example Dale was at the theatre), or if he really turned into a Corrupted Soul at that moment (that only happened in Theatre, so maybe it was a projection of Dale’s mind given that Bob got corrupted in the police station) maybe that had some kind of regenerative effect.

[azure bay]

Some see it as an act of betrayal on Crow's behalf. Like he kills a guy Owl is interested in. However, since we don't have many evidence of Crow working against Owl and none of what we do have are substantial I tend to think that the shot was a part of Owl's plan and it's him who didn't let Bob die

[hollow igloo]

I don’t think it’s a betrayal. In the grand scheme of things the shot was necessary to have Bob get to TWD at the first place, so what you say makes sense to me.

[azure bay]

Well

After the shot and before TWD was Case 23

Which also corresponds time period

Tgeatre tajes place in 1971

TWD in 1972

[hollow igloo]

Yes, exactly

[azure bay]

It took almost a year for Bob to get into the institute

[hollow igloo]

Something like 8-9 months probably

[azure bay]

So the shot isn't exactly what lead Bob to TWD

[hollow igloo]

But the “formal” reason why Bob gets to TWD is his amnesia

That would not be possible without he shooting himself

[azure bay]

Not sure here

The shot itself isn't that clear

And in Case 23 Bob gives away his memory

We don't really know what part of it

It could be leftovers

It could be the whole

On the other hand in Theatre the bullet hole was used to take memories

And in TLS memories were "drifting by"

Like being extracted

But

Theatre is an altered memory of Dale

Who normally wouldn't touch Bob's cubes

And TLS could mean anything as well

[hollow igloo]

I agree on that completely

[azure bay]

As I think about it, it could be not Dale to extract cubes

Even in Theatre

The player and the protagonist don't always share their actions

[hollow igloo]

What role do you think the player has?

[floral mauve]

In theatre

Did Dale extract memories with bare hands or did Bob give away his memories

[hollow igloo]

He seems to have extracted them

But Theatre is a very altered memory

[azure bay]

seems is usually a key-word

[floral mauve]

Dale the walking mill

[floral mauve]

If we see TWD

[hollow igloo]

In TWD we don’t see anything after Bob shot himself

So who knows

[floral mauve]

But he didn’t remember anything

After

Memory losses

[hollow igloo]

That is true

[azure bay]

we see him getting deep into his mind and eventually corrupting

looks a lot like him in Theatre but could be a coincidence

[hollow igloo]

But again, between the Theatre event and the police station there is something like 8 months of which we know nothing about

[azure bay]

what conclusions do you make here?

[floral mauve]

A wasted cs

[hollow igloo]

In my opinion there are 2 options:

1. bob lost his memory after he shot himself, and this somehow triggered a first episode of corruption. After that, he disappeared. Dale saw the corrupted Bob and started investigating more and more on case 23. When they found him in human form, they wanted to interrogate him, and for some reason he became corrupted again. When leaving the police station, Bob left his memory behind, and Dale took it.

2. Bob shot himself but did not get corrupted. Instead, someone between Dale, Mr. Crow and maybe someone else rescued him and took him to the Hospital. There, he was saved and lived in a sort of catatonic state (living his memories drifting by). When he got well, he was taken by the police to be interrogated, but since the amnesia still remained, and his overhaul sense of loss, he became corrupted. The events at the police station follow as before.

Dale seeing a corrupted Bob in theatre could be because he saw him get corrupted in the police station

[azure bay]

you mean other memories coming by?

[hollow igloo]

Yes, like he was dreaming in some way

In the club there are many characters, most of them already seen by Bob (for example Dale or the tv broadcaster), that is clearly his mind re-elaborating his memories in some way

[azure bay]

I used to think so but it always came in conjuction with my assumption of Bob stealing a gun from the police officer and killing himself in the PD

TWD proved me wrong and I threw both assumptions away

[hollow igloo]

But as always, what we see are Bob’s dreams, so who knows really what is happening

[azure bay]

Speaking of this, I never thought Dale would see Bob getting corrupted and that being a reason for Dale's interest

This is a new idea

[hollow igloo]

I agree with you on that, i prefer the second theory

But Dale was there, so he most likely saw something

[azure bay]

That's why I like the 1st more

But I feel a need to share my other observations concerning Dale and Bob

[hollow igloo]

Please do

[azure bay]

Dale wasn't really interested in Bob. He "couldn't think about anything else" but the lake

I think if Bob was arrested it wasn't Dale

[hollow igloo]

I think so too

But you agree that Bob is the perfect candidate to be Laura’s murder

[azure bay]

For Dale's supervisers ofc

[hollow igloo]

Dale interest started when he started working at Case 23, remember that Laura’s body disappeared misteriously

He didn’t even know who Bob is

[azure bay]

He could easily get info on him.

[hollow igloo]

But if he saw a corrupted soul, then I guess Dale would be shocked

[hollow igloo]

Of course

[azure bay]

There was a secret scene in TWD

[hollow igloo]

Which one?

[azure bay]

About Dale promising Bob to find Laura

[hollow igloo]

Got it

I think this is an effect of Bob’s dream

[sage token]

Dang it I knew I should've stayed out of theories today

[azure bay]

In case of it having nothing to do with time or memory travel it could pretty much mean that Dale already knew Bob

[hollow igloo]

Maybe Dale refers specifically to Laura’s body more than anything else

[azure bay]

I think so

[hollow igloo]

In that case, it would make sense

[azure bay]

Alternatively it could be Dale the traveller who has just got out the elevator to get his samsara lesson

[hollow igloo]

There is also the other scene when Dale asks bob to give him his memory

This should mean that he already knew what cubes/memories were?

[azure bay]

Well

He was gathering info on the lake

I guess he could learn about the cubes

[hollow igloo]

Maybe some kind of ancient legend or stuff like that

[azure bay]

Here I take an opportunity to share another assumption

Wether Bob got into a hospital or not Owl was already interested in him and could take an anvantage of him just right then

Since the cubes in ch2 of Case 23 were a test for Dale, as Mr. Owl mentions, he could set it up