🤔｜theories

[azure bay]

I'm a bit scared as well

I really don't want the story to be about a big single family being reborn as own nieces & nephews

[north pasture]

if Albert lays a FINGER on my boy Dale I’m gonna start throwing hands

[azure bay]

lays finger in what way?

[north pasture]

its an expression! I means like ‘if he hurts Dale at all’

CAUSE IM SCARED THAT ALBERTS GONNA COME BACK

because the trailer with his coffin was SKETCH

[azure bay]

he may come back in a different body

like to actually become Dale

that's what I'm scared of

[north pasture]

YEAH

I hope Dale isnt like. A Reincarnation of Albert

I just don’t see how they would do that and have it make sense (if they DID and it was an interesting plot point then maybe yeah but still)

[azure bay]

that's not that bad as I think about it. It's just the story that becomes more & more like a soap opera

[nocturne yarrow]

I feel like Dale might be revealed not so much as a reincarnation of Albert, but more just "the next in line" for the whole deer role that Jakob's dad and Mr. Deer also posessed. The lifespans seem to match up well enough that if the "deer spirit" passed from one to the other upon death, it would make sense.

An interesting theme I've noticed is that the deer seem to always be in an adversarial role to whoever is the Owl at the time, which indicates some interesting stuff between Dale and Mr. Owl in the future.

[azure bay]

I'm not sure if there is such thing as "deer spirit". There are souls that may change bodies & Albert is the closest deer-associated person that could become Dale

[nocturne yarrow]

I used the term "deer spirit" because it was the most concise way to explain the idea, but it would be more accurate to describe it as a role. Like, it's possible that the same soul passed between every deer-symbolized character through reincarnation- but it's also possible that the whole deer thing is just a role that characters unconciously take on once the last user of the role dies.

same difference honestly, either way it explains similar character traits between different characters that use the same animal symbols

[azure bay]

If there is a secret asura society it'd be strange if there were be only one deer-person on Earth

[covert wyvern]

this^

[nocturne yarrow]

I dunno, we never really see multiple living at the same time

[azure bay]

smth wrong?

[nocturne yarrow]

having one person be the deer would explain the White Door's kidnapping of seemingly random people- they're trying to seek out the vessels of the critical animal roles, as they seem to have a certain mystical power when gathered together.

[covert wyvern]

no no

I agree.

[azure bay]

For now it's too far-fetched

It sounds great

But no evidence

[nocturne yarrow]

eh, i suppose you're right. Just suggesting it as a possibility that would wrap stuff up.

[manic brook]

i always got the vibe that the golden cube has to do with the future, like the blue cubes involve the past

[azure bay]

Once again, in the book it's marked with the elixir insignia. The phrase about future may mean that the golden cube is the object that makes the events proceed

[manic brook]

true. i thought about the future because it is with the gold cube that dale moves into his next phase after cave i think,

[tidal moat]

hi

guys I have a question

I´ve been thinking about it and I noticed that I really don´t know the purpose of rusty lake

Do you know the purpose of rusty lake, the elixir and the corrupted soul?

[frigid loom]

not exactly a theory but both in the mill and the cave mr owl tells you not to extract the bad memories or their soul will be corrupted but we do it anyways bc we(i guess that's mr crow in this case) are forced to in order to finish the game.

and we still don't know what the levers in the cave's last part do and what would have happened if we could give the golden cube to laura instead

I'm not sure what can be interpreted from these but i just found it interesting and wanted to point it out

[frigid loom]

the elixir is for immortality, means they'll still be alive far into the future, or reincarnate so that their conscious or soul or whatever will. maybe that has something to do with the quote relating to future

[azure bay]

The elixir did not grant immortality before. & samsara guarantees soul immortality with no elixir involved

[frigid loom]

doesn't samsara mean cycle or something

i just read a theory about the animal spirit/ roles being passed on above

[azure bay]

Samsara is about a cycle of reincarnations itself

The soul is the thing that changes bodies in that process

It's the very thing that defines the entity being the same no matter what body it possesses at the moment

[frigid loom]

ooh also unrelated but i think this was in seasons, when you faced a certain way the side of your vision at one side was like there was a corrupted soul hiding behind you or you being the corrupted soul but you only turned your head to turn around that your own body is visible in your vision, i mean one side of the screen was slightly thicker like there was a dark blurry thing you see there

[azure bay]

The best game that explains samsara from RL perspective is Theatre.

If you want to learn more about it just play this game while reading the respective Wikipedia article

[frigid loom]

I'm not new and read a lot of stuff and played all the games like at least thrice

it's just been a long time since i did that

i just finished the collection last week

i don't remember stuff

[azure bay]

It's not about playing, it's about understanding

[frigid loom]

yeah i know

[azure bay]

I wish you luck

[astral frost]

I was looking for some interesting theories on Reddit, but I haven't found anything

[azure bay]

what was your search method?

[astral frost]

Scrolling down

The best one definitely

[azure bay]

hmm... As far as I know, Reddit is overwhelmed with a ton of community content starting with fan art & finishing by shitposting. Apparently, theories are not that popular & perhaps it's better to be googling for "Reddit" "Rusty Lake" "theory" keywords

[astral frost]

tried this one

but I always find threads about the correct order of the games hahahaha

[azure bay]

It's hurting me in a way

I'd really appreciate a forum where content would be separated in groups & not that lost under the newer posts

[astral frost]

me too

I'm trying to make notes whenever I can

about everything interesting on this channel

[azure bay]

I try to keep everything in y head, but I assume I forget a lot

would you mind sharing your notes?

[astral frost]

there's just a problem

I wrote them down in italian

😬

[azure bay]

well, I hoped otherwise

[astral frost]

lol

[azure bay]

are your notes somehow organized?

[astral frost]

I've organised them game by game

that's the most useful way to me

[azure bay]

is every single note short or are there some bigger ones?

[astral frost]

I've created something like a big summary of every game (with images and screenshots), adding comments coming from the knowledge we have from all the plot

the most important scenes have a bigger description, while for example a black cube needs only a text line

then I try to create a final speech to sum up everything

[azure bay]

seems to be a plan

does google translate Italian in English well?

[astral frost]

I don't think it would translate whole sentences correctly

it would be better if I'd try to translate them

[azure bay]

it would be but I'm uncomfortable asking

[astral frost]

no problem hahhah I understand

btw my notes are like expansion of my thought that I write here

so you already know many of them, more or less

[azure bay]

may I at least see it?

[astral frost]

yes yes

file too big hahaha

[azure bay]

is it .doc or smth?

[astral frost]

.docx

tried to zip it but still too big

[azure bay]

uploading on google drive could be a way to easily share

[covert wyvern]

you can potentially DM a wetranfser link

or google drive ye

[astral frost]

right

[upper drift]

So I dunno if we've already discussed this theory but I feel like we can draw some parallels between The Mill and Case 23 (I know I'm a bit late fo those of you who figured it out, but I just realised this after playing the CE Collection)

Like Dale starts investigating the case.

He then solves the puzzles in Laura's house, post which, he sees the body getting teleported (?) after Dale contacts RL in Chapter 1, crossword puzzle, whose phone call is something we see in Mill.

Then the body is poofed from the crime scene.
Obviously that happened because CE Mill, Crow decided to extract Laura's body from the crime scene, and eventually her memories.

Then we see Dale locked himself and we solve the puzzles in his office, only to get 2 cubes and the TV acts like a conduit between The Mill and Dale's Office because we also get a view of the 2 cubes that are placed by Dale in the Mill.

Meanwhile there's also the fact that Bob was called by Dale, but we know he isn't the same Bob since in The White Door, his memories are already extracted/corrupted.

[prisma monolith]

In the timeline, both games (or rather, The Mill and the third chapter of Case 23) both take place at the same time (1972)

[upper drift]

(I forgot TWD story so soz)

[upper drift]

Correct. And I used to think they were isolated incidents

Now the question remains as to why did Dale take the Black Cube belonging to Bob and White Cube belonging to Laura-

Bc in Case 23 we got a black cube after Bob got corrupted

And killed the cops, etc

But the white cube we got was from Laura

And it is an already established fact that Cubes are memories

Also there's one more curious aspect

So I'm guessing The Mill isn't entirely a matter of minutes/ hours, it is a matter of months which we got to play in terms of minutes/hours.

Because in Case 23, it was said that Dale spent months locked up in his office trying to crack the cade

Case

On the other hand, everything in The Mill was found to have happened on one fine day

So I'm guessing that isn't the case

(Also how can I prove Mill happened in months and not hours/minutes? Because plants don't grow in minutes, not even in Rusty Lake lol)

[astral frost]

I wouldn't be so sure about that last one hahahaha

[upper drift]

Loll

[astral frost]

Remember that people can turn into giant mosquitos XD

But yes, there's a time problem indeed

And your explanation would simplify things

[astral frost]

Personally I agree with that one

Other people in this channel, for example, think that the involvement of time is more complicated, as if the Mill was someway "suspended" in time

[upper drift]

Oh

Actually that isn't a bad idea either

Dale did say so himself

[astral frost]

Well, he said something like this when he was already in the elevator

The Mill events happen before that

[upper drift]

Just before, actually

[astral frost]

I tend to consider that quote more related to Dale's "memory loss"

His memories are someway extracted, so he " can't feel his body anymore" (he's partially or totally corrupted) and he "sees his memories floating around" (the cubes themselves)

But there isn't any mention about a strange flow of the events in the Mill

[real lantern]

The plant from one of dishes in hotel (mister deer?) Is laugthing frok a corner

But what you said is pretty weird, like, we get to see the other side of the "your place is already taken" call from case 23, and then we see dale getting locked in the chapel thing which is supposed to happen like, months after the call

[azure bay]

I can imagine 3 possibilities

1. A natural one: a seamless time skip has occurred. It's the simplest explanation (except for Laura's body not rotting that requires some strange magic to be present). Plus, as long as the devs have removed almost all the dates from Case 23, a retcon may take place so that kind of time skip could also happen in Dale's office.
   1.a) Alternatively, this retcon could also place both Case 23 & The Mill exclusively in late 1971. In that case this paradox gets completely solved & a time skip is required no more.

2. A temporal anomaly: as mentioned above, the mill could experience a different manner of the time flowing. There are some other examples that could be perceived in this way. The most obvious one was in The Cave. We've seen Dale sleeping in the big white cube under the lake. It was happening during winter 1972. Most likely December if we ignore possibility of that retcon. Therefore, Dale was sitting there for months & for some reason his beard has not regrown yet.

3. Just temporal communication: if we assume that there was no retcon then the later part of Case 23 & The Mill are still taking place in summer 1972 as depicted on the outdated official timeline image. What's more, on that very image The Mill is mildly stated to happen exclusively in 1972. So Mr. Crow could just communicate with Dale through time. Something similar can be seen in Seasons (Laura could be the one to talk to herself both from the future & the past), Birthday (Mr. Owl was talking to Dale from the future of 1966) & Paradox (Dale may call the mill number & Mr. Crow would answer with his strange voice that associates with his mouth being sewed). In this case Laura's corpse once again could be either taken through time or preserved with some magic.

[compact sonnet]

I think Laura's body is preserved, because in Mr Owl's letter in The Mill says that he will send the body to Mr Crow later that month. So he waits until Dale finds the clues to get to the Cubes, then sends Laura's body to the Mill.
I only don't have a explanation to the phone call happening in the same time, I think it's a plot-hole. But I think Mr Crow says that Dale's place is already taken because he uses the word that Laura used to go to the Lake, so his place was already taken by her.

[azure bay]

the body disappeared in 1971 & was used in 1972 to extract memories. The date is certain given that Dale appears in chapel in summer 1972. How was it preserved during a whole year according to you?

[compact sonnet]

I don't know, maybe Mr Owl kept it in one of those tubes he has in the hotel

Or maybe it's just time travel and I am overthinking this haha

[azure bay]

My guess is the clock. It was preserving William's body & keeping Rose alive while she was pregnant

[compact sonnet]

Yeah, could be the clock!

Did Rose get pregnant? I thought Laura was beborn directly from William's corrupted soul

As shown in the cutscene

[azure bay]

Either way Rose was kept in the clock for months & then she stepped out the lake with Laura

[compact sonnet]

How do you know she stayed there for months?

[azure bay]

we've seen her entering there & then we've seen the time fast-forwarding. Seasons passing were depicted with the tree

[compact sonnet]

Oh, right! I didn't remember that

Yeah, I think the clock would be a explanation to the body being preserved

Changing the subject, I have a doubt. I don't know if it was already discussed or solved, but here it goes:

How did Mr Rabbit's corrupted soul appeared in the window of his room in the Hotel before his death?

Do we have 2 Mr Rabbits?

Because the one that appears in the window is the one that gets captured by Mr Owl

[azure bay]

It's either twins or time travel - both have supporters & adversaries

[compact sonnet]

But if Mr Rabbit is David Eilander, who would the other one be?

I think David is the White one, because he is related to a white Rabbit mask in both Paradise and Paradox

So who is the Brown one?

[azure bay]

the white one in BD is confirmed to be David

but the brown one is also David if the others are former Eilanders

otherwise it wouldn't make sense

they all are expected to be connected

[compact sonnet]

But if they are the same person, how does the corrupted soul appears in the window during the level?

[azure bay]

I've heard 2 versions. Both are absurd in my book. It's Either David was experiencing dissociative identity disorder & each of his 2 identities got its own body or it's a "clone" created by Mr. Owl for unknown reason

that's why I tend to think that it's the soul travelling through time

[compact sonnet]

Yeah, I think it's absurd too haha

I think they are two different individuals, but I don't know who the other could be

[azure bay]

which one is not David?

[compact sonnet]

The Brown one

[azure bay]

then the rest of the guests are not Eilanders

[compact sonnet]

Because when David appears in Paradox, he uses a white mask

[azure bay]

It's not proved to be a mask yet

[compact sonnet]

They could be, Mr Owl could've get only David wrong

[azure bay]

very & very unlikely

[compact sonnet]

David was always a joker, maybe he managed to fool Mr Owl

[azure bay]

why would he fool Mr. Owl?

[compact sonnet]

Or maybe, Mr Owl could've killed David already, since his soul is already there in the Hotel

[azure bay]

In RL Hotel all the guests seem to be ignorant of their past, of Owl's past & the past of the island

[azure bay]

then there wouldn't be any reason to invite the rabbit

I want to underline another thing

According to you, why did David kill the Vandermeers?

[compact sonnet]

And if they are all ignorant of everything related to the Lake, why invite them all?

[compact sonnet]

I don't know, I never thought this through

[azure bay]

he needed a prophecy about Dale. Their memories of the future contain him

[compact sonnet]

But didn't he kill them all just to feed the lake?

He says this in the end of the Hotel, doesn't he?

I don't remember haha

[azure bay]

he said that the memories are not only key to the past but also to the future

then he shows a cube featuring both all the CS & Dale in the elevator

[azure bay]

he came for the pistol that was "the substance of his past life" in order "to escape his state". The pistol is the very same that Ms. Pheasant's killed herself with. It could also be connected to Rabbit as long as they both were working at Rusty Lake Theatre

[compact sonnet]

Wasn't he supposed to be a corrupted soul in Birthday?

[azure bay]

I think that he is

he doesn't look like one

but he is

[compact sonnet]

He is in his animal form, similar to Mr Crow

[azure bay]

asuras don't want to escape their state. Corrupted souls do

& you were anticipating him to wear just a mask

[compact sonnet]

I don't know, I think this Mr Rabbit thing is very confusing

[azure bay]

it definitely is

[compact sonnet]

I hope RL explains this to us in some point

[azure bay]

I expect a whole game dedicated to his journey

it seems to be just as interesting as the one of Dale

let me explain

[compact sonnet]

Yes! That would be cool

He is a very complex character

After all, he is David Eilander haha

[azure bay]

the CS seen outside the window looks a little bit different that the one kept in an autoclave in the Hotel ending

it has whiskers

My theory is that this CS has started its journey of redemption

Hotel was one stop on it

BD was another

maybe there were a lot more in between

& along each one this CS was getting more & more alive look

1st the whiskers

then something else

& eventually a whole body with flesh & blood

& a suit of course

there are many weak examples of CS traveling through timeline

Corrupted & alive Laura was seeing each other time to time

William's CS is able to see Roots events in different order

it's also able to save Leonard during the war via his flashbacks

in Samsara Room there's possibility of this very soul visiting its future

In Paradox Dale's CS encounters all versions of Dale in the forest

& even in The Cave Mr. Crow made Dale half-corrupted or so before sending him on his journey through memories

[compact sonnet]

Yeah, time travel is definetly possible, due to the blue cubes

[azure bay]

time-travel adversaries tell that blue cubes are shown to work just in memories

without The Cave their existence outside them would be highly debatable

[manic brook]

OOOO This is some very cool thought

[quaint berry]

Did anyone saw this bulding

Before

In any game?

[azure bay]

It's a reference to Mr. Toad

no more than that at least for now

it would be the only way to brand themed restaurant there

[quaint berry]

Oh,i get it

[azure bay]

never the less I'm able to imagine it being featured elsewhere

like Owl Nest diner

maybe in the game featuring The Golden Cube calling card

[quaint berry]

Maybe it's od that he has an atraction but only apiring in one game

[quaint berry]

If they wanted a dinning place they could just called it OWL NEST

[azure bay]

Mr. Toad is expected to be closer to the hotel & also to be a higher level cook

[quaint berry]

That is true but i don't think that the psrk is real

I think it is a clue

The hole think

[azure bay]

it could be all just an April fools joke

[quaint berry]

It can but i hope not

[azure bay]

there's nothing in the plain sight. Nothing else as suspicious to set a direction. An opinion of an expert would be welcome here tho

[real lantern]

A thing we can all agree on, victor butzelaar is a rocking musician

[covert wyvern]

aye. but that's not relevant for #🤔｜theories

[quick birch]

Hey guys

I want to ask you who is this guy

Who has a knife tattoo on his arm

[azure bay]

no one known

[quick birch]

Hmm

[azure bay]

My guess is most of these arms & hands belong to the lake

[nocturne yarrow]

I always wrote it off as just a weird thing the devs put in for shock value, but it does make me think about the various strange bodies found around the lake, such as the one you fish up in CE: The Lake. Perhaps corpses buried or dumped in the area assume strange properties?

[quick birch]

Yeah

[azure bay]

this one & many others don't look dead

[nocturne yarrow]

many others?

[azure bay]

like the ones that appear in Hotel

[nocturne yarrow]

ohhh, you mean the hands

[azure bay]

or the easter egg in Paradise during Hail

[nocturne yarrow]

yeah, now that I think about it, the hands are probably just a wacky manifestation of the lake

[quick birch]

I guess I have to play Hotel first

[azure bay]

so do I

[azure bay]

good luck out there

[nocturne yarrow]

none of the games will really explain what the reason behind the hands and arms are, they're just a staple in a lot of rusty lake games. even so, hotel is a decent game.

[glacial totem]

I mean, I thought they were like, failed corrupted souls.

What Bob could've become.

[quick birch]

Sadly

[surreal lintel]

Recently played hotel and the white rabbit was passing by in mr.rabbit(brown) room. Do anyone know what it is? And can i only see the rabbit? How about the other guests?

[royal notch]

This is one of the biggest misteries of all the series. If i think of him, i get a headache.

[real lantern]

The double rabbit thing is the biggest mind melt of all time, some say that corrupted souls can travel trhu time, some say that the eilander guy (i realy need a spreadsheet with the eilander family) had a personality disorder, so when he ascended one part of him became a corrupted soul and another became the brown rabbit, some say its two different people.... anyway, no one knows for sure and every theory is full of holes

[vague imp]

David ^

[real lantern]

Thanks

[mossy imp]

I was thinking about the bat in the cave, could it be possible that he changed into an animal after what happend at the hotel, just like Harvey?

[royal notch]

I don't think so, because we can see him in Paradox.

[real lantern]

Yeah, sorry, im kinda stoopid

[rigid fog]

What is the main motive of the game?

Samsara room

[azure bay]

Have you played Roots?

[rigid fog]

Yes i have played it and complete it

[azure bay]

Samsara Room totally correlates with the Roots ending

at least the remake one

[rigid fog]

There was nothing special in the ending

Are you a mod?

[azure bay]

just a theorist

[rigid fog]

So are you a person just like me?

[covert wyvern]

the mods have a shiny yellow colour 😉

[azure bay]

yep

[rigid fog]

So why are you telling me everything

[azure bay]

this channel is about sharing our thoughts on the games

[rigid fog]

Are you from india?

[azure bay]

our interpretations & theories

[azure bay]

nope

[rigid fog]

So

Tell me a thing

Is the creator of rusty lake is indian?

[covert wyvern]

no.

[rigid fog]

So

Why there is written भूत प्रत

In many of the games

[azure bay]

the games were inspired by some aspects of Indian culture

mainly by samsara & bhavacakra

[rigid fog]

Like?

[azure bay]

the Theatre game directly teaches the player & his protagonist how samsara is depicted in RL universe

Mr. Crow (& seemingly everyone else like him) is asura

The corrupted souls are pretas

& the protagonist is expected to become deva

however, these concepts are not directly copied & may differ from the Indian origins

Samsara Room is about a certain preta getting rebirth as a human

[rigid fog]

I want to play hotels and wanna complete it

[azure bay]

if you don't want to know anything else about the lore we'd better move to another channel

[rigid fog]

Lore?

[azure bay]

the story

& its deep secrets

[rigid fog]

Corrupted souls means?

[azure bay]

these black ghosts

[rigid fog]

Like?

Who is protagonist

[azure bay]

are you asking if the protagonist is a ghost?

[rigid fog]

You know i live in the country of this language

What is pret in english?

What is patagonist?i live in india

[azure bay]

it's usually translated as a hungry ghost

[rigid fog]

Black ghosts like?

So late typing

[azure bay]

do you want me to explain the word or show the image?

[rigid fog]

Yee

Yes

[azure bay]

both?

[rigid fog]

No show the image

[rigid fog]

Ohh he is corrupted soul

The is our player

Who plays the game

[azure bay]

the main character of any story is called protagonist

[rigid fog]

Who is the main character

[rigid fog]

This?

[azure bay]

in different games we play as different persons

in Roots we play as a corrupted soul

[rigid fog]

In arles?

[azure bay]

In Arles we play as van Gogh that becomes a corrupted soul

but a different one

[rigid fog]

You know there is a very good game named collection which is so good bcs in that you can play every game by a series

Without that i have played in wrong order bcs i dont know the order

Whats the story behing mrcrow

[azure bay]

I'd rather recommend you finding the secret Roots level

his origin is presented there

[rigid fog]

Should i have to play the game again?

[azure bay]

yep

alternatively you may watch it on youtube or something

by the way

the order in CE Collection is not full

it lacks all the games that are not present in that collection

[rigid fog]

Others are paid

What do you think what is my age?

[azure bay]

I prefer not to think about it

[rigid fog]

Ok

But

Can you tell me the right series to play all the games

[azure bay]

Here's the order recommended by the devs:

[rigid fog]

Devs= Developers?

[azure bay]

(yes)

• Seasons;
• The Lake;
• Arles;
• Harvey's Box;
• Case 23;
• The Mill;
• Hotel;
• Birthday;
• Theatre;

[rigid fog]

And the other ones?

[azure bay]

• Roots;
• The Cave;
• Paradise;
• Paradox;
• The White Door;
• Samsara Room

the next game will be The Past Within

[rigid fog]

Which collection we have to play first?

[rigid fog]

This

[rigid fog]

Or this?

[azure bay]

just play in that order

starting with Seasons

finishing with Samsara Room

[rigid fog]

But white door is not of rusty lake

[azure bay]

It is

the devs are the same

[rigid fog]

Ohk

[azure bay]

the publisher has just a different name

[rigid fog]

Which is the longest game in these?

[azure bay]

no idea

I guess Roots or Paradox

[rigid fog]

It should be roots

Bcs paradox is not that long

[azure bay]

it could be more saturated with content

[rigid fog]

But i heard a new game is coming named cube escape: theme park porably

[azure bay]

That was an April fools joke

I have to go

Later

[rigid fog]

But where is that fool written?

[azure bay]

It's just a European tradition to make jokes like that on 1st of April

[rigid fog]

Ok thanks for telling me the series to play

Let me remember it

👋👋

[vivid bridge]

Can we discuss how Seasons makes no sense these days? Like its a good first game, introducing the mood and storyline and all but if you think about the game now, you start to realize a bunch of things. Like how does a 1981 memory exist if Laura died in 1971? When does this game really take place? Like this is Laura revisiting her memories so when is she doing this? Just kinda when she is a corrupted soul wandering the lake? Like there is a difference between when a memory happens and when it is visited (Birthday is a memory of the thirties but the game happens in 1972) so when does Seasons really happen? Stuff like this is never explained

Also did she kill Harvey? The memory says yes but he's in later games (changing the past in a memory doesn't change the real thing so he should still be dead)

[azure bay]

From the very beginning even since Seasons it was established that Laura died in 1971. The depicted memories of that fall & of the winter 1981 both imply that we play as her ghost (or her corrupted soul, as it was named later) then already. The goal of the game was to change her past so she wouldn't die in the 1st place.
Whether the past is changeable via memories or not is very debatable question because people usually interpret this games as they like. However, at least Laura believes that she's changing her past as her notes say so.

IMO Seasons stopped making sense because of the other reason

[vivid bridge]

yeah but that still doesn't explain the 1981 memory

unless thats like a thing introduced in the last game

idk

but as of right now

it doesn't really make sense

[azure bay]

can you explain in details why you think so?

[vivid bridge]

How can a black memory cube exist of a time when Laura wasn't even alive anymore?

If I die now, I don't have any memories of 2031

[azure bay]

exactly this is actually quite easy

it's not directly hers
it belongs to her corrupted soul

[covert wyvern]

but what if the only reason she existed in 1981 is because she survived her treatment at RL and overcame whatever ailed here, creating two storylines, one where Laura dies

and one where she doesn't

[vivid bridge]

So you're saying Seasons is an alternate universe?

[azure bay]

maybe, maybe not

[covert wyvern]

nah just a split branch on the timeline

[vivid bridge]

I don't know about this, there is nothing in the games to support a theory like this

[azure bay]

a possibility of multiple endings in several games kinda does

[vivid bridge]

mmmmhh

[covert wyvern]

Correct but that's not going to stop me from headcanoning it

although, ye,

Crafter is right

[vivid bridge]

yeah

[covert wyvern]

the only lead I have are the multiple ending

[vivid bridge]

The Lake has two endings

[covert wyvern]

endings*

[vivid bridge]

and Lake is directly tied to Seasons

[covert wyvern]

I assume the lakes ending changes how the timeline continues

[vivid bridge]

I don't know, tho. Still doesn't make a lot of sense

[covert wyvern]

either laura survives > she reconciles with her past and lives on, effectively stopping that timeline

or Laura dies, Dale discovers her body

the saga continues.

basically like this

[vivid bridge]

I still don't really get it

I wonder if there even is an explanation or if it was just early game weirdness. Like the devs didn't have all the details ironed out yet

[azure bay]

Returning to the memories of 1981. Technically, they are not Laura's but of her CS. Her CS was pretty alive (if we can say so about their kind) & it's confirmed that CS usually contain/are contained in/are connected to the cubes e.g. memories

[vivid bridge]

Hmmm maybe, I had that thought as well

I guess it kinda depends on how the story ends

Speaking of which, I want the story to end. Like they've been teasing Dale reaching the Hotel since 2015 and it still hasn't happened

It's not even on the horizon, the next game is completely unrelated

Paradox is almost 3 years old

[azure bay]

we don't know yet. It could be connected to the main plot in an unexpected way

I mean directly affect it

[vivid bridge]

I mean, i'm sure it is. All the unrelated games are usually backstory to a character or the plot

Hotel introduces the corrupted soul plot, Roots is the origin of Laura and Mr. Crow, Paradise is the origin of Mr. Crow and White Door gives us insight on Bob

I'm sure Past Within will lead back to the main story

Like it will end with Albert travelling back in time and becoming Mr. Toad or something, idk

I want to know who Mr. Toad is

Rusty Lake, explain!

[azure bay]

I'm afraid of Albert being reborn as Dale

[vivid bridge]

Oh no

[azure bay]

not that Albert doesn't deserve a good ending

[vivid bridge]

He doesn't

he's Albert

He's like

the worst

[azure bay]

he is just a tragic figure

at least for now

but I'm pretty sure TPW will show more of his misery that lead him to being the worst

[vivid bridge]

I don't want to sympathise with Albert, he's the absolute worst

[covert wyvern]

I mean, ye, Albert was by all means an absolutely terrible person

LMAO

[azure bay]

either way he's done some good

[vivid bridge]

Tell me one thing

[azure bay]

he raised Leonard & gave birth to Rose. He just needed someone to love him

[vivid bridge]

We don't know how he treated Leo and Rose

If i'm guessing, probably not the best

Based on how he treated Frank

[sinful prawn]

i mean yeah i agree

[azure bay]

honestly, Mr. Owl seems to do even more evil than Albert ever could but we don't hate him

[vivid bridge]

Mr. Owl and especially Crow are kinda sketchy

[covert wyvern]

hot take; al the people of the lake are arguably terrible people LMAO

[vivid bridge]

yeah

Frank killed Albert and Rose was like "lol" so I don't think he treated her well

[sinful prawn]

Theyre both doing all of this for incredibly selfish reasons (to stay alive forever I guess??)

[vivid bridge]

Mr. Owl isn't doing that right now, he's searching for someone to replace him

All Mr. Owl is doing right now is trying to do the right thing

[azure bay]

we don't know Rose's reaction

[vivid bridge]

I mean, the next thing she did was dance with Frank

[sinful prawn]

really? oh then oop

Rose has her priorities straight

[azure bay]

it happened years after

[vivid bridge]

We'll probably find out his relationship with Rose in The Past Within but i'm predicting that its not the best

[sinful prawn]

it's probably how your theory is
he doesn't seem like an affectionate person

[vivid bridge]

He's destroyed everything he came into contact with

so yeah

[azure bay]

because before that everything else was destroying him

[vivid bridge]

Ehhh

The bee thing was an accident

him drinking wine is on William

William is the worst person in the series I think

[azure bay]

we cannot be sure on neither of that

[vivid bridge]

Everything that happens in Roots is because of him

[sinful prawn]

thats true

[azure bay]

the bee nest could be dropped on him on purpose as his siblings were laughing at him afterwards

[sinful prawn]

would you say that everything bad that had happened to the whole Vanderboom family was because of his corrupted soul?

[azure bay]

giving alcohol to children was performed time to time back then to make them sleep better

[vivid bridge]

I guess

[sinful prawn]

but like as a newborn???

yeesh

[azure bay]

I'm not a fan of past humans

[sinful prawn]

agreed

[azure bay]

The whole game happened because of William, that's true. However we don't actually know if he was possessing them all the time or was just watching & waiting till they die on their own as all mortals do

[vivid bridge]

I mean, based on the gameplay, he interacted with all of them

Like the gameplay is you (William) doing all the things

[azure bay]

otherwise that gameplay wouldn't happen

[vivid bridge]

yeah

So William helped Albert torture and kill everyone just so he can get reincarnated

[sinful prawn]

mhm so if were to blame someone for Alfred's actions, it's William

[vivid bridge]

Yeah

[azure bay]

not necessarily

[vivid bridge]

Thats what the game is

[azure bay]

that's just a way to interpret it

I can really see William just waiting until everyone dies without him interfering at all

[vivid bridge]

but the game says otherwise

[azure bay]

we don't know. It could be just the player to trigger the events & not the protagonist

we see him acting for sure just in several chapters

but elsewhere it's not established

[vivid bridge]

I don't know, cherry picking events from the game doesn't sound like the good way to think about the games

[azure bay]

I'm not telling that you are wrong. I just know a brighter alternative. Just think about it. Without a player to tap all the characters the game would become just a low budget cartoon

so it's necessary to make the player make them tick

sometimes the player is directly connected to the protagonist

sometimes Vanderbooms seem to be able to do everything on their own without William's help

so I don't see any reason to make him worse than it's necessary

maybe it's me who's wrong

& in TPW William would be a usual guest to set Albert's direction

[vivid bridge]

I just think it would be weird to have William be the player in some levels and not some other levels

especially when its teased in earlier chapters like the one where albert stabs a butterfly

Also you're always a character, there is no game where you're not anyone

[sinful prawn]

agreed, the individuals in the game are being influenced by William's corrupted soul

[azure bay]

Yeah, the player is always connected to the protagonist in most of RL games (Roots included) but they are not equal. Their knowledge & actions may differ.

remember all the other games. Do you believe that Dale or Laura would push the others to make them talk?

or to do weird actions?

like going corrupted on click

or the weird hand crawling out of somewhere even more weird

[sinful prawn]

the weird hands are probably connected to the lake somehow

like I said they could've been influenced by a corrupted soul

but of course William isn't the protagonist of all the other games

[azure bay]

That's not important right now. The thing is that WE click on it so it foes forward.

[azure bay]

I'm telling that there are plenty of games (if not all) where the player causes some events to happen & not the protagonist

because these games are scripted to wait player's taps

[sinful prawn]

thats true

[vivid bridge]

yeah but there is a difference between "tap the player so an animation happens" and "you carve a pumpkin and give it to Albert"

[azure bay]

for now it could be Albert all along. Just animating him to do all of that by himself could require the effort out of budget

the game is huge

the events are shrunk

[vivid bridge]

Yeah but thats stretching it again. Like you can't say that its William some of the times and sometimes he's not it

you can't be so inconsistent with the game

with no proof for it

[sinful prawn]

i mean that's what they're theorizing

[azure bay]

Why can't I?

[vivid bridge]

because I said so

[azure bay]

excuse me, but reality doesn't care

[covert wyvern]

Disccusing theory is fine, becoming hostile, is not. @vivid bridge @azure bay

[vivid bridge]

I'm just joking

[azure bay]

I'm not hostile

[sinful prawn]

pfht

[azure bay]

I'm trying to be objective. It doesn't care about me as well

[sinful prawn]

either way ya'll are just spitting out theories and thats perfectly fine

[azure bay]

I think that the episode with the pumpkin will be featured in TPW

at least it was kinda teased on halloween

[sinful prawn]

that would be fun to see though

hey kid wanna see whats at the bottom of this well

jk jk

[azure bay]

if Albert is the protagonist for that level, we'll probably see him doing it by himself

[vivid bridge]

Maybe, maybe not

[azure bay]

(but still there will be a possibility of him being secretly possessed by William's soul)

[vivid bridge]

William not being there would bother me, though. Like the Butterfly level has foreshadowing that you are a corrupted soul, which would mean that you always play as him throughout the game

[azure bay]

or just watching most of the time as Albert is interesting as a person

you don't expect what he'll do next :з

I've just remembered another soul that could lead him

the birdy one

probably Crow's

but not sure for now

It would be interesting to watch these 2 souls to interract

@covert wyvern

[covert wyvern]

am I relevant to this conversation?

[vivid bridge]

not really

why did you ping them

[azure bay]

if asking about bringing this idea to the devs is 😣

either way, I'm not doing this any time again

[covert wyvern]

I'm unsure what the devs have planned but you're always free to leave suggestions in #💭｜suggestions-and-feedback

[azure bay]

yeah, will do

@vivid bridge I have some more weird thing about Seasons

interested?

[vivid bridge]

sure

what is it

[azure bay]

It all starts with the fall of 1971

according to it, Laura's already dead

The parrot screams, her death is on TV, the funeral card already exists

so we're probably playing as her CS already then

[vivid bridge]

We're always playing as her corrupted soul

[azure bay]

the 1st 2 memories are more likely to belong to her still alive

but either way

[vivid bridge]

Yes, they belong to her being alive but in the game, you are already dead. You are visiting a past memory

When you open the clock, you literally see yourself as a corrupted soul

[azure bay]

you are able to open the clock just after the blue cube makes it go backwards

like in BD

[vivid bridge]

yeah but I don't think that changes who you are

thats what I was talking about earlier

The game is Laura revisiting her memory cubes

She is corrupted from minute one

[azure bay]

yes, she enters her memories as a CS but at first she could see herself as alive as she remembered that back then. Just like Dale is a child in BD & sees the world from below

[vivid bridge]

I mean, yeah, but that doesn't change the fact that she is still, in fact, a corrupted soul

also we never see Dale's face in Birthday so he might be his adult self

[azure bay]

we're approaching my idea

[azure bay]

(at least we see him being short)

either way

we have her memories from just after her death

[vivid bridge]

yeah

[azure bay]

not her past life memories but for now her own

[vivid bridge]

I guess?

So what

[azure bay]

it happens in 1971

but this soul is established to appear in 1972

[vivid bridge]

wait what soul?

[azure bay]

Laura's one

she dies in 1971

[vivid bridge]

She gets corrupted in 1972, yes

[azure bay]

So how is she able to remember 1971 before her appearance?

[vivid bridge]

I don't know. That was my point from earlier, she has memories from times that she couldn't remember

[azure bay]

I thought you were referring exclusively to the winter of 1981 that's more believable from this pov

[vivid bridge]

I mean, I didn't think about post-death 1971 also being the same thing

but yeah

Makes no sense

[azure bay]

I have some theories to solve this paradox

1. the soul was always a part of Laura (like Bob's one) & was somehow able to have it's manifestation before her body was investigated by Dale

[vivid bridge]

mmmhhh I don't know

still wouldn't explain the 1981 thing

[azure bay]

the 1981 thing could just happen long after

in the very end of the main story

the CS was remembering its attempts to fix the past

& changing them in a way that they were actually successful (?)

it's not as paradoxical as fall 1971

[vivid bridge]

The thing really depends on when the game takes place. I wish they would specify it

[azure bay]

pure logic would say that remembering winter 1981 should take place after winter 1981

[vivid bridge]

yeah

My theory is that its the last game in the timeline and its about Laura's soul finally finding peace. Like in 1981, Laura's soul returns to her old home and in her mind, she uses that new memory to turn her black cubes into white cubes like Dale did in an attempt to heal herself and finally rest

Again, it really depends on how the finale of the dale/laura story ends

[azure bay]

so it's all an illusion?

[vivid bridge]

No its just Laura going into her own memories to turn her memories white like Dale did in Birthday

and since she is a corrupted soul, it has the effect that she can finally rest

[azure bay]

the ending implied that she felt alive not only in 1964 but also in 1981

[vivid bridge]

I don't think its a coincidence that both Birthday and Seasons use the blue cube to change the past and end with the image of a blossoming tree

I don't know about feeling alive, the ending just implies she got rid of the corruption

But again, its all speculation, there is no real proof for it.

None of this solves the Harvey issue. How is he alive when she killed him?

[azure bay]

do you think that the changes took place purely in her head but affected her body or soul?

[vivid bridge]

If i'm going by my theory it affected her soul

meaning it freed her off her corruption and like, let her go to heaven or whatever

or maybe she's alive again, idk

[azure bay]

(it could be finally reborn as something else)

[vivid bridge]

Yeah

We don't know if a corrupted soul can become alive again

[azure bay]

without help you mean

[vivid bridge]

In general

I think it should be possible

[azure bay]

William's soul was reborn

[vivid bridge]

true

and Mr. Rabbit was searching for a way to "escape his state"

but again, we don't know if that means to live again or just to rest in peace

[azure bay]

in Hindu & Buddhism pretas are ghosts that can't be reborn for a time

at least in some interpretations

[vivid bridge]

yeah

[royal notch]

If i can inserti myself, i would Say my idea.

[vivid bridge]

sure

[royal notch]

I think that when someone die (in the Rusty Lake universe), he become: a normale Ghost, and a corrupted soul.

2 things

We can see a classic ghost in Paradox and seasons

[vivid bridge]

do we?

wait

what

when?

I don't think we've seen a normal ghost ever

[azure bay]

(Jacob burnt to death before being saved by Caroline)

[royal notch]

Seasons: spring, sometime outsider.

[sinful prawn]

thats true

[royal notch]

Paradox: chapter 1 e 2

[vivid bridge]

thats just an image of laura's corrupted soul

[sinful prawn]

when you look outside the window, you could see Laura as herself

and a corrupted soul if you're quick enough

[royal notch]

Exactly.

[vivid bridge]

Yeah but the corrupted soul is also Laura

because you are Laura

[royal notch]

Yes, yes.

[sinful prawn]

thats what Ciao is saying, that there is two

[azure bay]

the one that kills Laura may be a different one

[vivid bridge]

I don't think there's multiple. I think the intent is that she committed suicide and her corrupted soul doing it is a metaphor

[royal notch]

I'm saying, theyre both Laura, but 2 differenti forms of her.

[vivid bridge]

I guess

[azure bay]

but Dale killing her in Paradox could be NOT a metaphor

for me both suspects are good enough

[vivid bridge]

I think thats also a metaphor. It means that they can't coexist, if one lives, the other has to die. So him living is metaphorically killing her

[royal notch]

Paradox had never really happen

[glacial totem]

Hm.

[azure bay]

it doesn't mean it wouldn't depict some real events

their projection

at least

[glacial totem]

Could dale have maybe killed a woman similar to laura to 'solve the case' ?

[azure bay]

I doubt that

[vivid bridge]

The whole point of Mr. Crow/Owl putting Dale in Paradox is that Dale learns that they can't coexist and until he learned that, he's stuck in the loop. Him learning that is what frees him in the secret ending

[glacial totem]

I see that point, but I had the idea.

But, maybe look at it as how Dale wanted to solve it? He wanted to end the cycle by killing laura maybe...

[azure bay]

@vivid bridge everything may & at the same time may not be perceived as a metaphor. I think this duality makes the story alive & learning every way of it is more interesting that sticking just to one. At least it's my opinion

[glacial totem]

Hm, so we do not take it at face value mostly.?

[vivid bridge]

games like paradox are hard to pinpoint because they are not a real place, its a simulation in his head

[glacial totem]

Yeah, exactly

My grandmother has a book on dreams, should I look for what a crow means?

[vivid bridge]

uh sure though I don't think whatever the result is is intentional

[azure bay]

this simulation has some real objects & refers to some real events. I think marking it completely unreal is unfair

[glacial totem]

Yeah.

[vivid bridge]

Not really, the only "real thing" is the birthday scene and that also just serves the purpose of Dale confronting himself

[azure bay]

Bob's book is real

[vivid bridge]

True

[azure bay]

Case 23 evidence is

the globe depicts Laura's & Dale's life paths

[vivid bridge]

when did Bob even write that. Doesn't Case 23 and thus him being imprisoned happen after the white door?

[azure bay]

Case 23 was before TWD

[vivid bridge]

wait

[glacial totem]

a crow means grief, and if you hear one cawing, that means disposal of something

no, TWD was during 23?

Because laura was alive, right?

[azure bay]

definitely no

[glacial totem]

so, the intro cutscene was a memory.

[azure bay]

the main events seem to take place not long after Bob's escaped the PD

[glacial totem]

hm

While I have the book, is there anything I should look into?

[azure bay]

what book?

[glacial totem]

Dreams,

[azure bay]

ah

[glacial totem]

anything I should look up related to RL?

[azure bay]

IDK. I'm not sure if RL were reading it

[glacial totem]

yeah

its kinda old I think

[azure bay]

The book appears in Sarah's ending

[vivid bridge]

yeah I know BUT

I'm pretty sure Case 23 takes place AFTER The White Door because

So he couldn't have written a book about being falsly accused during White Door

[azure bay]

very unlikely

[vivid bridge]

No let me explain

Bob meets Dale in the Theatre in 1971, shortly after Laura's death. During that, he shoots himself and trips, having the weird club dream. Right after that, he awakens on the street and goes to the white door, so white door starts in 1971. The office chapter in Case 23 is in Summer of 1972 so it must happen after The White Door. So the only explanation is that the "False Accusations" book isn't about him being questioned at the police station but about Dale meeting him in the Theatre and based on that, man, Bobby, you're a real drama queen

[azure bay]

TWD clearly starts on August the 14th 1972

[vivid bridge]

Yeah I know but he goes there in 1971! I don't know what to tell you

Unless he tripped for 8 months

[azure bay]

there are 2 way to fulfill them

[vivid bridge]

the theatre takes place in 1971 and right after the theatre scene, he goes to the white door. An 8 month gap makes no sense

[azure bay]

It actually makes in 2 cases but before I name them I'd like to mention that he has signed TWD papers on August 13, as it mentioned on the documents. Even the one from the ARG

[vivid bridge]

so I guess he tripped for 8 months

[azure bay]

Maybe not

He could spend 8 month in hospital

This kind of shots is not that lethal

The only thing against the hospital theory I know is a lack of bullet scar

[vivid bridge]

yeah but why does he wake up on the middle of the street after it

[azure bay]

Because after hospital he was taken in as a suspect

Then he escaped the PD as a CS

& woke up on the street

[vivid bridge]

yoooooo

you figured it out

[azure bay]

There's another way

He could could be contained for 8 month by Mr. Owl. The shot could be an illusion or be just magically healed. Then Bob was sent to Dale exclusively in order to bring him the black cube Mr. Owl referred to in his letter in The Mill

[vivid bridge]

yeah

I just wanna say characters not doing anything for multiple months is nothing new, Dale spent like 4 months in an elevator

[azure bay]

Or in the chair

[vivid bridge]

When he goes down the elevator in the cabin, its summer. When arrives at the bottom, its winter

[azure bay]

the mural could still depict summer

[vivid bridge]

then he sat on the chair for 4 months, doesn't change the fact that he's been there for a long time

[azure bay]

true

what's more

the beard is still gone

[vivid bridge]

Paradox can't be that long since when he exists it, its still 1972

[azure bay]

it would regrow

[vivid bridge]

I know, I don't think this is a real plotpoint, I think its just the timeline not lining up 100%

[azure bay]

it could. The dreams are going faster then the reality

[vivid bridge]

yeah probably

I'm just saying that in real time, he's only been there for a couple of seconds

the time we see in the cave

I had that thought recently, btw. The next time we see Dale, he's gonna be in his Paradox redesign but he's not gonna have his beard. Credit to thelakesuite on tumblr for the picture

I hate it

[azure bay]

We actually see him with no beard

[real lantern]

The case 23 dream sequences are estabilished to be just memories, so laura is dead, and just shows up in dale's dreams

[vivid bridge]

what dream sequence?

in case 23?

[azure bay]

TWD I guess

[real lantern]

Oh, sorry

yes, TWD

[vivid bridge]

Ooohhhh

wait i'm still confused, what case 23 dream sequence in twd?

the one where he meets Dale?

[azure bay]

a secret scene about the PD

[vivid bridge]

ohhhhh yeah

[real lantern]

A few messages up someone said "but wouldnt laura be dead by then"

[real lantern]

.

[vivid bridge]

oh yeah that was long ago

I totally forgot about that cutscene btw

[azure bay]

@vivid bridge The same weirdness you've mentioned about The Cave is also in The Mill

[vivid bridge]

yeah

there is a timejump between chapter 1 and 2 but in the mill, its not there

Mr. Crow took the time between Chapter 1 and 2 and placed it between Case 23 and The Cave lol

[azure bay]

even earlier

between ch2 & ch3

[vivid bridge]

there is no timejump there, though

ch3 takes place immediately after ch2

[azure bay]

so

I have a theory

It's crazy as hell

[vivid bridge]

okay

[real lantern]

Hit us with it

[azure bay]

but it explains Seasons, The Mill & The Cave

Some locations near the lake exist a bit out a time

that explains The Mill & The Cave not being really affected by it

then we have Laura

she died in 1971 & was taken from then to The Mill

I think as Laura got corrupted she's escaped back to her continuity

so we can see her in 1971

[vivid bridge]

wait you lost me

[azure bay]

if The Mill takes place in 1972 than Laura shouldn't be able to be conscious in fall 1971. Neither alive or corrupted

[real lantern]

I dont know man, it just feels like a deus ex machina, and those are never realy fun to think about

[azure bay]

I just want to finish

[real lantern]

Ok, sorry, go ahead

[azure bay]

but if The Mill exists outside the time she could probably be able to easily return back to the place (or time) she was taken from

are you familiar with grandfather paradox of time travel?

[vivid bridge]

yea

[azure bay]

It's solved by implementing the parallel timelines

When you go back & make changes, they don't affect YOUR future

They just create an alternative one

so you may exist & yada-yada

I'd like to use it here but I'll explain my reasons later

so Laura returns & creates a new timeline where she kills Harvey

let's call it Harvey's dead timeline

then she continues her existance

this is NOT the main timeline of CE games

but it could still have its own Dale with his own journey

just without Harvey

(if Mr. Owl doesn't resurrect her again)

so she proceeds

eventually she gets her memories back (remember, they were taken by Mr. Crow) & creates the machine of winter 1981

[vivid bridge]

I mean sure

but uhhhhh

uhhhhhhhhhhh

do you have any evidence?

[azure bay]

not strong enough

here I'm just filling the gaps

I told you it would be crazy

evidence will be in the later parts

[vivid bridge]

o-okay

[azure bay]

so... as long as winter 1981 is also a memory, I assume that machine didn't work & she needed to go back & start fixing it

another timeline Fixing the machine

she's already got the blue cube

I thing it would really help her travel through time

& even necessary because we need limitations cause otherwise we get some plot holes in Mr. Owl's story

so she uses the cube to freely go back

she goes back to 1964

saves Harvey & plants the cactus

so she creates one more timeline

BUT

this time it's the main one

cause it features both Harvey & the cactus Dale's seen in Case 23

then the makes some other changes during her journey

but this is less likely to be the main timeline

& eventually she manually creates & enters the one that lets her not die in fall 1971

& lives happily ever after

[vivid bridge]

:I

okay

[azure bay]

I prefer to separate it from the main one because of 2 reasons:

1. The notes in Seasons ask to CHANGE the past. Not create an illusion & make her comfortable but actually change it.
2. If there was just the butterfly effect, it would mean that she would directly cancel all Dale's achievements so I decide to separate them into different timelines

I'd like some critique

but in details, if you will

[real lantern]

I dont realy know, with the lack of evidence, just some game weirdness its just feeling like a deus ex machina type theory, im not saying its wrong, its just that it would make everything... just kind of boring

[vivid bridge]

Yeah

"Changing the past" just refers to the memories. Dale also changes the past in Birthday but it really doesn't matter because he only changed the memory cube

[azure bay]

what exactly dym by deus ex machina?

[azure bay]

I think that changing the real past just via memories is a pretty neat concept & quite fresh as well

[vague imp]

a person or thing that appears or is introduced into a situation suddenly and unexpectedly and provides an artificial or contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty if you want the meaning

[real lantern]

Yep

[azure bay]

Thx, I know the general meaning. I want to know what it is in my text

[vague imp]

oh okay sorry lmao

[real lantern]

Like... just the whole idea of "zones where time and space dont match real time" just feels kind of cheap

[azure bay]

no, you are welcome indeed

[azure bay]

exactly this thing is quite separated from Laura's journey. It exists to explain some possible plot holes of The Cave & The Mill

[real lantern]

Again, not saying its wrong, just saying it feels kind of unfounded and unsatisactory

[azure bay]

I think it's not as strong as you could misunderstand it. I'm telling that the time flows there a bit differently. A bit faster, I guess, but that's not all-powerful. Just enough to explain Dale being unconscious for months & not regrowing his beard, plus to be helpful for Crow & Owl whose time is limited by the climax of the story

[real lantern]

How do we know dale has been knocked out for months?

From my point of view he was knocked out and transported somehow instantly, the thing that doesnt add up is how he shows up moments after the "your place is already taken" call happens

[azure bay]

he gets into the elevator in the cabin in summer, reaches the bottom, walks to the big cube & then we see him being still there in winter

[real lantern]

Thats in the 4th chapter of case 23 correct?

[azure bay]

Yeah, then a mural from The Cave, then its ending

[real lantern]

Ok, now im realy confused

[azure bay]

Everyone is :c

[real lantern]

So what you're saying is, how did he stay in the elevator since the time he got in on the 4th chapter of case 23, until we see him again in the submarine in the ending of the cave without dying of starvation or growing a beard yes?

[azure bay]

yep

and there are 2 versions where Dale could spend these months

either in the elevator

or in the cube

[silver hemlock]

Are we able to suggest that time moves differently when using the cubes?

[azure bay]

he wasn't using cubes back then

it was before he started his journey via memories

as The Cave is before his return to BD & Theatre

[real lantern]

The cubes voyage like in birthday and theatre is in the hotel elevator

[azure bay]

exactly

[real lantern]

Probably in the missing -2 button

[azure bay]

I think, that big white cube is that -1st floor

[silver hemlock]

Wait are the memories in his head or is he rly there

Like physically there

[azure bay]

"I see my memories captured in little cubes floating around the lake"

[real lantern]

Anyway, going back to the problem at hand, i honestly dont think we've been given enought info to be sure of hiw that happened

Honestly, anything that i can think about just feels too cheap a shot lmao

[azure bay]

We've seen Dale walking from the elevator towards that big cube where we see him later

[real lantern]

Ok?

[azure bay]

I mean I have no idea how we would fill the gap

with the info given

[real lantern]

Yeah, i hope future games give us some insight on either how the lake works or how that thing happened

[azure bay]

I have another theory. It's quite recent

[real lantern]

Well, hit us with ut

It

Jesus i cant spell today

[azure bay]

I call it The Theory of Retcon 23

it relies on the dates of Case 23 being almost completely retconned

in CE Collection all the dates of summer 1972 are missing

so the whole game could take place now in 1971

& winter 1972 of The Cave could now be not December, as previously anticipated, but January

& all the time Dale's slept over in that cube could be limited to a single New Year party

this theory has its problems tho

it doesn't work well with TWD

[real lantern]

Yeah, and retcons are always sticky topics

[azure bay]

Bob is expected to wake up & enter the institute right after his escape from the PD while being corrupted

it's not the case if he's escaped in 1971

cause TWD starts in ol' good summer 1972

[real lantern]

Yeah, retcons are just realy weird topics, because if you retcon something that relates to other games you have to retcon EVERYTHING and thats just very uncool

[silver hemlock]

Ok so technically anything that happened in the lake and his memories (birthday, theatre) did happen in 1971 because he made them occur in 1971 when he went back and changed what happened especially in birthday. If he was physically in the memory of birthday then it did occur in 1971 because he was in 1971 when he watched it. And then if time moves differently in the lake then cave could take place in January instead of December but idk and I might be missing the whole concept of that theory. I seem to do that pretty often

It’s a difficult topic

[azure bay]

Dale started his journey strictly in 1972

[silver hemlock]

Yeah sorry I meant 1972

Replace 1971 with 1972

[azure bay]

And BD & Theatre take place after The Cave

In The Cave Dale starts his journey upwards

& both BD & Theatre are about Dale still going in that direction

There are more evidence on that

But this was enough for me back I when realised it

[royal notch]

I have a theory for explain the Mill time problem. Do you remember the "tale" in Dale's office? "And when he reached the mill, the time stopped". I think this is a point for saying (Just a theory) that in the mill the time flows in a different way, and that's why we can see on the tv things happened months before, meanwhile outside the time flows normally.

I think we could also extend this "ability" also on the macro cube under the Lake, that could explain why Dale don't die of hunger, for example, but in reality passes months.

[azure bay]

That's a good point

Didn't think about it in that way

Thx

Even the numbers do actually appear in The Mill

[astral frost]

I'd rather say that the memory set in 1971 is Laura's last one before her death, before the end of her life

Since that moment, she won't remember anything else (cause she is dead)

But still, that memory was about "the murder scene", the exact moment of her death, comprehending the last things she saw as a Human

[azure bay]

Nope, the memory features the aftermath. The parrot wouldn't scream before the moment, the newsflash wouldn't be shown before the moment, the funeral card wouldn't be present before the moment

[quick birch]

Who are you fisherman?

Who is this guy?

[royal notch]

I think this is not important, Just a fisherman.

@azure bay i didn't understand the seasons problem.

[azure bay]

We have Laura died in 1971

We have her soul corrupted in 1972

but we also have this corrupted soul acting in 1971

it shouldn't be there

[royal notch]

Ah, yes, now i remember.

Yesterday i say a theory: for me, when someone die, his corrupted soul Is separed from the dead body.

Everyone has his own corrupted soul.

But if all the memories are removed from the dead body, the corrupted soul get the control of It.

This is the particolarity of the Laura's corrupted soul.

But in spring Laura's corrupted soul, having a body, can travel trhough the memories.

[azure bay]

samsara implies that the soul is always single for every creature. We see Jacob's actual soul after his death in Paradise right before his mother saved it & helped to be reborn as Mr. Owl. A corrupted soul is the very same soul but it's suffering for some reason. Technically it's a ghost that doesn't get reborn for the time being. It may take control over the body in some cases but every time we see that happening the body is still alive.

[royal notch]

In the mill no.

Laura's dead.

[azure bay]

in the mill we have another case of the corruption

that's connected to the memory extraction

without memories being extracted from the dead body the CS should not manifestate

unless there were some other reasons

let me remember all the ways to get corrupted

[royal notch]

youre right, let me explain.

We're saying the Sand things.

Same

A corrupted soul can get the control of the body only if the body doesn't have ant memories. But if the body Is also dead, the thing Is more Easy, obviousoly, since the corrupted soul doesn't have to fight with the real cosciousness of the person.

This is the case of Laura.

But se know also Dale and Bob without any memories, but they don't get corrupted immediatly!

Dale and Bob can fight their corrupted souls since theyre still alive.

[azure bay]

the corrupted soul is not a parasite living in your body. It's you when you embrace a ton of negativity. The soul can not split in 2. It's a single being according to samsara

As we agree, there are 3 ways of corruption:

1. You may or may not be corrupted when your memories are extracted. Usually they don't if you "use the machine wisely".
2. You may or may not be corrupted when you experience a horrible death. Jacob was burnt alive but his souls did not corrupt.
3. You may or may not be corrupted when you feel a great grief.
   All of them are not certain to have that result. What's more, they all can be seen just as strong negative experience.

What's more, one can become corrupted only once until they are back to normal what's believed to be difficult if your body is dead (William had to perform a great sacrifice & the very same Laura had to "time travel"). So either way the corrupted Laura needed to go back to normal before being corrupted again by Mr. Crow in 1972 but that's very & very unlikely

[royal notch]

I'm not saying that the corrupted soul Is a parasite, i think it's your "dark side" that Is free when you die.

[azure bay]

It's not always the case

the souls are usually being reborn

only the ones that are unable to do so get corrupted

[royal notch]

The only One corrupted soul Reborn Is William's One.

And only because of many and many sacrifices in a lot of time.

Then William's corrupted soul get in Samsara room.

It's the only case in Rusty Lake, for now.

[azure bay]

please listen, samsara is definitely a thing. It states that most of the souls are NOT CORRUPTED & get their rebirth. Except for corrupted ones who take the ghost form

otherwise Theatre would not make any sense

Theatre explains samsara the best in RL

[royal notch]

Where?

[azure bay]

the six plays are about samsara

samsara is your past, your present & your future

no matter what form you get you still belong to samsara

[royal notch]

Yes, i know.

[azure bay]

when you "die" you just get another life

[royal notch]

I don't think always.

[azure bay]

yes. As an exception, you may become corrupted