🤔｜theories

[frosty wolf]

"I hate my bald head! I like hair." ~Mr. Owl, Jakob Eilander.

[carmine field]

He's bald because it's his fate

[terse niche]

Exactly. Only the true god keeps his hair after changing so Dale may have been chosen.

[frosty wolf]

i really hope we get to see Mr. Owl become a fish and just start squirming around in the lake

[carmine field]

lmao

[terse niche]

Yes. He comments that his time is running out and hints that he could turn into a fish. Where was it?

Paradox?

[frosty wolf]

Paradox ch.2

[carmine field]

Paradox ch2

[frosty wolf]

yay

[terse niche]

Oh yea

[carmine field]

[frosty wolf]

faster

[carmine field]

Still, Mr. Owl would live on for at least another 30 years

[terse niche]

I think he should be able to live forever as long as he continues to take the elixir. Hopefully we'll see the dog again one day.

[carmine field]

what the dog doin

[terse niche]

The dog is busy eating grounded arms and living forever.

[frosty wolf]

when Mr. Crow has to feed the Owl-fish in the lake with doses of elixir

[frosty wolf]

imagine we get dog-lore and backstory like before it was introduced in Roots

[terse niche]

It would be nice! Whereas we only saw him as an animal taking the elixir.

We have the possibility that Harvey was also originally an animal

[frosty wolf]

should be around 115 years old since Cave if we guess he was 3 years old back in 1860

[carmine field]

Actually I want to understand how the blue cube is created
We know that white and black cubes are extracted from people and that the golden cube is possibly a form of the elixir, but what about the blue cube?

[visual coral]

The devs said they'll explain in the future

[carmine field]

oh

[visual coral]

I think the Lake creates blue cubes somehow

[terse niche]

The dog is over 100 years old in the cave

And it is interesting that he is able to produce the elixir

[frosty wolf]

yea no definitely i calculated it 1860-1972

add three if he was three in 1860 u get 115 yo

waiting for baby doggo lore

[terse niche]

The blue cube exactly how it is made we have nothing really clear. We see that Laura uses a blueprint in seasons that maybe is for the blue cube, but hard to tell. What I believe the same blue cube that Laura supposedly creates is the one that Dale uses.

The hand that comes out of the box in Birthday is identical to Laura's hand on the TV in Case 23, but that could just be an artistic choice.

[carmine field]

people here said that the devs confirmed that those hands belongs to people

whatever that means

[terse niche]

Really? This is one of Rusty Lake's craziest mysteries. There are several disembodied hands that appear in games. Most coming out of walls and rocks.

[carmine field]

yep

[terse niche]

We even cut one arm!!

[carmine field]

I don't know if they would be people related to Mr. Owl or something different

[frosty wolf]

imagine that was Mr. Bat's human arm!!!!

[terse niche]

It's so absurd that I really can't imagine how it happens.

[carmine field]

but I think the hand that appeared on the vase in Seasons is Laura's own hand

One thing I want to see in the future is the construction period of the Hotel
Perhaps defining what really happened to the Eilander family and showing the rise of Mr. Owl with Mr. Bat, Mr. Toad, the alchemist brothers and other people

I think something that depicts that time would be enlightening

[terse niche]

Perhaps people advancing the cycle naturally? I believe there is a natural process of changing your place in the cycle. For example, it seems that many corrupted souls naturally turn into plants/narakas and then those plants turn into predominantly aquatic animals that we see a lot in games like fish, shrimp, shells, etc. Perhaps people can naturally switch from the animal to human state.

I believe there may be a natural way for you to change places in the cycle and there are ways to force that change in an "unnatural" way as a human into asura.

[carmine field]

not sure if the cycle works that way or if it's random

I need to search a little more

[terse niche]

@carmine field UHH! Nice theory!! Perhaps achieving enlightenment allows you to become an asura in any way you achieves that , such as using an alchemical or ritualistic elixir.

[visual coral]

According to Samsara "natural way" would be with karma

And idk if it exists in RL

[terse niche]

There is a cycle and to change the cycle you need a trigger. And it has certain more natural triggers (maybe being at the lake is a big factor) and it has less natural triggers. Enlightenment can be a natural trigger and also an unnatural trigger with an elixir.

[carmine field]

it's an interesting theory

[terse niche]

I think karma doesn't exist for the samsara of the Rusty Laske universe. This is never mentioned, but I believe there are other factors as I mentioned, in place of karma.

[visual coral]

Did we ever see CS turn into plants without any rituals?

[carmine field]

well

Mr. Rabbit?

[terse niche]

Mr Rabbit looks like his trigger is unnatural (if you pay attention he gets hit by beams very similar to the ones used by Mr. Owl)

But I think that because at the bottom of the lake there are corrupted souls right? And we see that there is a whole forest under the lake.

Being a tree/plant is confirmed as one of the samsara cycles of the Rusty Lake universe.

[visual coral]

Well... He was shot with "substance of his past life" Idk if it changes anything

[terse niche]

In the Lake we can take an apple from a half-corrupted body (I believe this body is something very early in the game's history and therefore it is something completely different)

[frosty wolf]

wait wait wait wait i know there was talk about this a few days ago or something but i didnt understand is the tree state naraka, neutral area, or nirvana?

[carmine field]

It depends. I think normal plants and trees would fit into the category of animals. The red forest shown to us in the cycle of Samsara is hell

[terse niche]

I think, maybe, Mr. Owl causes Mr. Rabbit trigger for corruption and them he turns into a tree

[frosty wolf]

i dont know how Mr. Owl would have any connection with Birthday other than Dale himself or the changed memory

[terse niche]

Naraka is one os the beings of the cycle

[carmine field]

The trees we see at the end of TPW and in Birthday don't have the same ominous atmosphere as the red forest

so I'm not sure if it's naraka

[frosty wolf]

(ah here we go again i am anticipating a conclusion this is what i was asking for)

[terse niche]

We see a mushroom trigger an illusion of this spooky forest in Seasons as well.

[frosty wolf]

mushrooms grow from the ground..plant moment?

[visual coral]

Owl changed the memory even before Dale stepped inside. The present definitely wasn't there originally

[frosty wolf]

yeah the changed memory i already said

[terse niche]

The Rusty Lake Theater reveals the most about the cycle and those who are part of it.

Considering that the gift is what allows Dale to undo his parents' deaths, it's quite likely that this wasn't the original gift.

[frosty wolf]

yeah why would Dale's parents have that thing

[terse niche]

OR! Dale was originally never able to assemble the gift.

[carmine field]

I believe that is the case

[frosty wolf]

i mean it is odd already that Dale is using his detective skills at the age of 9

[terse niche]

Since Dale is given the final piece by Mr. Owl only in 1966 that's the clock.

Mr. Owl gives to Dale one of the pieces that is the clock. Dales birthdays is in 1939, Mr. Owl moments that he talks and gives the clock is only in 1966

[carmine field]

The intention of that gift is precisely to give Dale a chance to change the past. Unless Mr. Owl knew that Mr. Rabbit would attack, it doesn't make sense that gift was there originally

[visual coral]

The letter from Mr. Owl pretty much confirms that it was from him and is intended to change the memory.

[frosty wolf]

a lot of things in Birthday are hard to talk about because it was pretty much heavily edited by Mr. Owl and possibly Mr. Crow to fit their plans

[carmine field]

@terse niche If Mr. Owl was watching Dale and knew about Mr. Rabbit (and so he would have given the gift), he could have done something to prevent the trauma in the first place

the trauma seems to have been something negative and not planned, as Dale's mind had become useless because of this and other things

[frosty wolf]

ichthyophobia has destroyed his brain Dale will never meet Mr. Owl's future form becuase of his fears

[carmine field]

Old Dale definitely not

But VanderDeer is another story

🦌

[visual coral]

Imagine if when Dale becomes ruler of the Lake he's gonna serve only fish in the Hotel

He's gonna get him eventually

[carmine field]

Btw, what do you think is the relationship between the songtress in Theatre and Mrs. Pheasant?

The songtress plays the corrupted soul of Mrs. Pheasant, but I'm not sure they could be the same person

[visual coral]

Potentially Pheasant was reborn as her

[carmine field]

I don't know, because Mrs. Pheasant is still around in 1971/72

[visual coral]

CS don't care about time paradoxes

Rabbit in Hotel is proof. And Laura in Seasons

They're in the Lake and time doesn't exist there

[frosty wolf]

i think Laura in Seasons is chronologically and physically in her room

[carmine field]

I believe that the corrupted soul can co-exist with the person, even if they're alive

[visual coral]

Me too

[carmine field]

I think that the songtress could be her "human disguise", just like Mr. Owl and Mr. Crow have their own disguises, but she would still be corrupted during that time

[terse niche]

I have a theory that these super traumatic moments were planned to be undone later. Because Dale and Laura have very similar histories at this point. Both are the only ones we see using the blue cube. Both undo extremely traumatic moments in their lifes (Dale the death of his parents and Laura her suicide). Laura appears considerably to have been induced to commit suicide and induced to undo it. Dale is also tricked into undoing his parents' deaths and considering that Dale's parents are killed not by just anyone but Mr. Rabbit, an asura, something directly connected to all this. Among other things like Dale's birth being revealed in Roots to William

[carmine field]

Since she had 4 objects that represent the substance of her past lives, maybe this influences something

[visual coral]

The songstress is a living human in 1971 as we see in Bob's memories. And since Pheasant was long dead at the time, I don't think that's possible. Plus, Pheasant's hat is used as "substance of the past life" which makes me think that she is indeed Pheasant's reincarnation

[carmine field]

I do not disagree that Mr. Owl might have had his eye on Dale, but I still think the tragedy was unforeseen. Why make Dale suffer?

[terse niche]

Both Laura and Dale have 2 very specific cubes used. One white and one black.

And we see that undoing trauma is important for the evolution of the mind

So it wouldn't be absurd to plan the trauma and then undo it.

We see the female singer having her neck slit and transforming from a human representation to a corrupted representation.

[carmine field]

About her being human alive or not, it's just the appearance. Mr. Owl and Mr. Crow look human but doesn't mean they are

The problem is, if the songtress is Mrs Pheasant reborn, why does Mrs Pheasant's soul appear afterwards?

[carmine field]

true

[visual coral]

Mr. Owl and Crow aren't dead tho. Mr Pheasant 100% died in 1893.
As you said, CS and a living person can co-exist, so I don't see a problem with that. Time doesn't exist in the Lake, so we can see CS there even though they might be reborn and living on the surface

[terse niche]

I think maybe Mr. Owl could have some kind of power over them.

[steel imp]

Did this argument start at 2 am?

[carmine field]

Corrupted souls apparently only have memories of the last life. I've never seen any cases where the corrupted soul remembers things from previous lives, except remnants

[carmine field]

welcome back

[steel imp]

.

[carmine field]

well, it was 9:54 PM here

now it's 4 AM for me lol

[steel imp]

I'm not going to theorize until I get a reply from the moderation on how to not get banned

[covert wyvern]

my man you're not getting an answer;

[steel imp]

But I'm serious

[covert wyvern]

you literally said your entire tactic was pushing people away

No you're not

you're being ridiculous.

[visual coral]

Rabbit remembered that the gun was from "one of his past lifes" in BD, and called himself David Eilander in Paradox, so they do remember

[steel imp]

I'm not going to argue further with you then

[covert wyvern]

Sounds like a solid plan.

[steel imp]

Yes, the alternative would be getting bazooked out of here

[steel imp]

Now, I'm not 100% for this, but nowhere sustains that Mr. Pheseant got reincarnated as the lady of the lake

The look is simalr, though

[visual coral]

I know, I got that idea from him too

[steel imp]

I didn't lol. It would render things a lot inconsistant

But you know

[carmine field]

Paradox is not real, and even if the characters remembered the substance of their past lives, I believe they only remember these very specific things

[steel imp]

Are you still arguing about "The Eilanders are the Guests?"

[visual coral]

Sure, but the wording of "one of my past lifes" implies that he at least remember that he had multiple

[carmine field]

No no. I believe the guests are the Eilanders. But in Paradox, that wasn't Mr. Rabbit, David Eilander or their soul, it's just a representation of them in Dale's mind (perhaps with information from the machine?)

[steel imp]

Uhm, more or less

You see

Dale had basically 3 seconds to see a humanoid rabbit with a machine gun

So he couldn't assimilate the details

[carmine field]

Yes, he remembers what he needs to, but I don't think he fully remembers his past lives. The silhouette of the corrupted soul is still the rabbit, not a human.

[steel imp]

So he fabbricated a persona that would fit him with a mask

[steel imp]

Is this the focus fo the argument?

[visual coral]

I mean, I guess. I just think that him remembering details so specific is a bigger leap than him remembering everything

[steel imp]

He had just 3 seconds, man

And I don't remember the exact age but that boy was barely a toddler.

[carmine field]

The focus of the discussion should be whether Ms. Pheasant's soul in The Cave would be the same soul of the songtress
Because, if that's true, I find it strange that they represent her soul as an animal, since she was supposedly reborn

[steel imp]

Ok

Where do you stand?

[carmine field]

I consider this possibility ^

[steel imp]

Then I'll gice you an hint

[steel imp]

The soul has residence in the bottomo of the lake, a timeless place. We never saw Pheseant CS going out of it, so Pheseant CS is of no concern to our reality. Pheaseant can be in another state of the wheel since her CS doesn't exist in time.

Thah being said

Bye

[carmine field]

Just as the white rabbit apparently could be in an advanced stage of the journey and therefore did not have the common appearance of a corrupted soul, this could be the same with Mrs. Pheasant

And then, at some point, something went wrong for both of them. And they reverted to corrupted soul form as we know it

[steel imp]

I'll give you another hint, since you are oriented this way

If you compare Birthday's rabbit and the corrupted soul of it, the only inconsistancy are the whiskers. For the rest, it's identical. That's of no concern to you.

That being said, if Pheseant has a human disguise it's more certianly an Asura. That doesn't sound wrong

[frosty wolf]

WOAH

hi

[visual coral]

da boss is here

[azure bay]

No, has no way to be asura, according to the evidence established. I think his look is as (un)real as the subway

[frosty wolf]

oh no he's reading it all, right? no dont its just a repeat. they're talking about Rabbit and David again

[azure bay]

I think it's the hand she caught in the lake

[carmine field]

It's a possibility. Maybe it traumatized her

[frosty wolf]

(ellesian is here this is the midnight theories shift for me goodbye everyone)

[vivid bridge]

The songstress is just a random person. In Dale's memories, she is used as a stand-in for Ms Pheasant by Mr. Owl but thats only in his altered memories

[azure bay]

depending on pronunciation, it can be either a place or creatures living there

[carmine field]

song stress lmao

[visual coral]

singing is stressful

[azure bay]

I don't think the massacre of Dale's parents was Owl's plan. Accoding to his letter and the date you enter into the snow globe to see him, he found Dale himself pretty late. Rabbit was likely there on his own and it only happened to be beneficial for Owl.

[vivid bridge]

Also Theatre is more proof that the guests aren't the Eilanders because none of the substances reference Elizabeth

[azure bay]

I see though. They normally coexist when a CS comes from a different time(line). But humans normally don't. The songstress is weird in that sense and we don't really know in what way she's Pheasant

[vivid bridge]

Actually, what "past lives" does the whole "balance the substances of your past live" refer to? Presumably there isn't any normal reincarnation as it was a whole process to reincarnate William. So whats going on there

[visual coral]

Aren't Rabbit in Hotel and his CS are from the same timeline? How's it different for humans?

[frosty wolf]

||(ellesian back at it again)||

[vivid bridge]

they hate us cause they ain't us

[azure bay]

She and her look, and her working in Theatre are real. We're getting posters of her in TWD and UB

[carmine field]

In that regard, I believe that William's "substance of past lives" is the sacrifices, as Roots implies

[vivid bridge]

Yes. She is a songstress playing the role of The Lady of the Lake

[azure bay]

and she objectively looks like Pheasant

and uses her music theme

[vivid bridge]

well, she wears the same outfit because they play the same role

[azure bay]

not really, the plays or the characters have different names

[vivid bridge]

The songstress herself can't be Ms. Pheasant cause Ms. Pheasant is currently stuck at the bottom of the lake as a hungry ghost

[azure bay]

unless it's some time travel shit which I can't fully discard due to so many weird precedents

[vivid bridge]

I mean, I guess

[azure bay]

I do consider her just replacing Pheasant possible

[vivid bridge]

but if we add time travel, then anything is possible

[azure bay]

I "kinda" add it

[visual coral]

This is actually such an interesting topic. I used to think that too, but now I incline to belive that William balancing his substance in Samsara Room. Those flying lights could be them

[vivid bridge]

We haven't seen real time travel, only in memories

[azure bay]

and yet we've seen a lot of stuff that could be taken as such

the striking similarities and these precedents make me think it's somewhat plausible.

I'm not sure-sure

but I'm suspicious

[azure bay]

The primary Pheasant is corrupted. It was the opposite for Rabbit.

I can accept souls travelling. Humans not so much.

[carmine field]

I don't think she's stuck. Mr. Deer was not at the bottom of the Lake in Case 23

[vivid bridge]

yeah but you get what I mean

[carmine field]

I think they can leave whenever they need to with some effort

[azure bay]

I think it's a bit beyond the point. The message is, we expect Pheasant to stay corrupted until Dale does something about that

[carmine field]

oh

[azure bay]

and I admit, that conflicts very much with those "striking similarities"

[carmine field]

so I think that if the songstress is Mrs. Pheasant, she has to be a corrupted soul

[azure bay]

but she clearly isn't because she has to wear a cheap costume to pretend one

[carmine field]

.

[carmine field]

.

[azure bay]

Corrupted souls pretending to be humans is something unheard of

[vivid bridge]

the only time we see the songstress resemble Ms Pheasant is during Mr. Owl's stage play. We shouldn't take that as proof

[azure bay]

we should because it's not only the looks

the devs deliberately used her music theme

[vivid bridge]

yes because in Theatre, she is a representation of Ms Pheasant

but in real life, she is just some opera singer who portrays the lady of the lake

she doesn't have the song in TWD

[azure bay]

Pheasant never portrayed The Lady

her play was different and so were the characters

it's not "the same dress for the role sake" situation

[vivid bridge]

it really is, though

[azure bay]

there's nothing to support that

it's a different role in a different play

[carmine field]

A very specific example is when we have William absorb the sacrifices, where he slightly reverts back to his human form. Still, he remains a corrupted soul.

But you're right, we haven't seen this before, unless we're considering characters that oscillate between the human and corrupted state.

[azure bay]

I don't think Bob's case is applicable to Pheasant

besides, she and the others are meant to be a problem

[carmine field]

why would they be a problem?

[azure bay]

that's what Owl implies them to be

they terrorize the lake and only Dale can stop them

[carmine field]

I know it. It's just that I didn't understand what you meant about Bob's case not being applicable to Pheasant

and other souls

[azure bay]

Despite being periodically corrupted, he's not much of a problem

he always reverts back under control

probably because he never died

(or maybe he did?)

[carmine field]

metaphorically, I think he died

[azure bay]

I mean, there's a possibility of him dying literally and going back to normal only because corruption saved him

from bleeding, for example

[carmine field]

true. He basically healed himself (or was ressurected)

[azure bay]

we don't really know what healed him or even if the shot was real in the 1st place, but that's one of the options. Still, we have a bunch of equally possible alternatives

[vivid bridge]

I think the shot was real, since it appears in Dale's memories as well

[azure bay]

I mean. It could be some kind of magical shot or smth. Basically more easy to revert. Or maybe a collective illusion

since I don't see any hint of Crow messing Owl's plans, I presume the shot was a part of the scheme

and still Bob seems too important to be killed off

so the whole thing has to be controled

I'm just guessing how it could be

[carmine field]

Bob, the character who changed his state five times in the series without having any idea 💀

[azure bay]

could be 7, if we consider Theatre being more real due to its parallels with The Lost Soul

[carmine field]

Perhaps Lost Soul is real to some extent as it appears on the TV channel

[carmine field]

I was already considering Theatre XD

[azure bay]

we saw him being corrupted 3 times in total

[carmine field]

yep

[azure bay]

Theatre-TLS, the police station, TWD facility

so it's actually 6 times, as I think about it

we're a bunch of failed mathematicians, as it turns out

[carmine field]

human->CS
CS->human
human->CS
CS->human
human->CS
CS->human

By the way, why did he become a corrupted soul?

Is it because of the black cubes?

[azure bay]

depends on the case

if Theatre is real, it has to be the cubes

[carmine field]

He was already forgetting things in Theatre, wasn't he?

[azure bay]

after the shot was done

and in Theatre Owl used that to extract the memories

but later on it has to be due to mental issues

[carmine field]

it makes sense. It seems that extracting the black cube triggered this series of corruptions

Van Gogh's black cube could have been extracted too, right?

Btw, what do you think about the relationship between corrupted souls and black cubes?

In The Cave, Mr. Owl touches the cubes in order to prevent the corrupted souls from attacking Dale

it's pretty interesting

[azure bay]

I wouldn't be so sure, they'd trigger corruptions long after the memories were extracted

They were likely due to poor mental condition like it arguably was for van Gogh

[carmine field]

Laura was already dead when she had her memory extracted. I don't know if that affects anything.

[azure bay]

BKM says it doesn't

at least in some apparent way

extraction lead to corruption no matter if you are dead or alive

maybe dead people are in a bigger or a smaller risk but we have no way to know it

[steel imp]

Harvey war flashbacks

[steel imp]

Dead people aren't dead

[azure bay]

people are never dead they aren't even people?

[steel imp]

It took me some seconda to understand this joke

But yes

You always have potentisl to live once again

So dead people are in coma

[azure bay]

the problem is, normally you live again as a different person

[steel imp]

You conserve your state as a CS though

The "matter" is the same

You see

Every time you go to sleep

You die

[azure bay]

ehhmmm

what an unexpected satement

[steel imp]

See it this way

You could get cloned every night, kileld and then replaced by a clone

The clone would never know

And it would be you at all the effects

Besides matter

So if you consider the clone someone different

It's purely because you are basing yourself on matter

[steel imp]

However in RL

[azure bay]

Don't take me wrong, corrupted souls are still souls unable to be reborn and they somewhat preserve their old identity but they are still usually dead. And when they are dead it's more natural to move forward rather than reverse back

[steel imp]

But their matter is transfered to a new body

I won't get in CS physics

But everything is matter. Now that it follows our natural rules is irrelevant

[azure bay]

I don't see how clone analogy is applicable

[steel imp]

Yes, it is

Let' hypotize that someone gets corrupted overnight

And they wake up corrupted

They would never know besides somewhat pain

Or using a mirror

[azure bay]

I think you are going into some unnecessary philosophical overthinking

[steel imp]

Death is phylosphy

So I've to get there

Death is, shockingly, subjective

Now, I'll avoid making crude examples

[azure bay]

ok, here the thing we witness different parts of a person in RL

[steel imp]

So these two will have to suffice

[azure bay]

their physical body, their "soul" and their identity

The soul is the center

and it may or may not lose the rest

like Owl has lost his body but preserved identity

and Laura preserved her dead body but lost her identity with memories

the loss of any of these can be considered death

[steel imp]

I have a different view

There's the body and there's the mind

Actually

There's just the body

Now the body can be divided in three subcategories

The brain, making up for the mind

The soul, making up for your capability of being reborn

And everything else, to function biologically

But all of this is physical

[azure bay]

it doesn't accurately describe the observed reality

which is Owl's body brain included was destroyed

but not his identity

which survived rebirth

[steel imp]

My kidney could get destroyed

By your logic I would be dead because a part of my body is gone

[azure bay]

how did you leap there?

[steel imp]

I mean

I claim that 3 of those are physicals

So they are just organs

If one of thos eget destroyed doesn't mean I die

I took the kidney as an example because people have usually two of them

Unfortunately I have one

So probably not the best example releated to me

[azure bay]

souls aren't usually considered physical

[steel imp]

*in reality

But in rusty lake

You bet they are

They are holding knifes

[azure bay]

so do ghosts in fiction

[steel imp]

Indeed

Ghosts are physical in fiction

Whatever interacts with the material world has a material manifestation itself

[azure bay]

except when they go through walls and other physical objects

[steel imp]

I said that they've a physical manifestation

That they can change that status is irrelevant for the sake of this argument

[azure bay]

so are corrupted souls

they can disappear or teleport, they can go through walls and they can get beyond the physical world into some kind of purgatory

where they are reformed before being sent back

with or without memories of the past

[steel imp]

And?

[azure bay]

with or without identity

[steel imp]

Those are their physicsl proprieties

[azure bay]

body is just a vessel for all that

you can create a new one from scratch with enough materials

[steel imp]

Identiry is irrelevant. I don't think you die and rebirth when you go through amnesia. We as a society don't think that.

[azure bay]

amnesia can be considered death in philosophical way

[steel imp]

Yes

But the death of your identity

[azure bay]

and usually it follows the death of the body

or rather

[steel imp]

The body as a whole

[azure bay]

it follows the creation of a new one

[steel imp]

Includes the identity

[azure bay]

It doesn't in Owl's case

the soul is primary here

[steel imp]

You are confusing the body and the irgans beisdes the brain and the soul

[azure bay]

listen

the identity is connected to a soul, and the body is just a vessel for them

Owl's body was destroyed

but Caroline took a narrow window of time when the identity was still intact

and that's why Owl has a new body but is still his old-self

And, Laura, at the same time, isn't William

his soul and his identity existed without the body for long

and the identity was buried as soon as a new body was occupied

and even if Laura remembers her past as William, her new identity will still strongly affect it

because primarily she rememebers herself as Laura

[steel imp]

I'm including the soul and the identity in a bigger system that I'm refering to as the body

The reason I'm doing that is because both of this things are physical

[azure bay]

in reality there's no soul and identity is physically encrypted into the brain but that's not the case in RL and you'd better change your terminology

from samsara pov a human and a corrupted soul occupy different realms

there's a distinct moment when a person stops being the former and becomes the latter with all its perks

[steel imp]

About terminology, you're right

The hunan and the corrupted siul are two different things because the latter has an unhelathy balance between the body and the soul

But that doesn't mean the soul is still matterless

[azure bay]

it technically acts like it is

Albert was literally going through walls

[steel imp]

It's true

But it just alters its physical propreties

[azure bay]

for it seems they are on another level

defy the laws of physics

[steel imp]

I could argue that he just able to expand it's particle to a state they can ignore matter releationships and coming off as uninjred

[azure bay]

that would be definitely overthinking

[steel imp]

You don't know RL physics

[steel imp]

Whatever they're doing, supernatural isn't a thing besides Albert magic

Probably passing through walls was Albert magic, too, now that I think about it

[azure bay]

they defy the known laws of physics. I agree that everything is natural if exists but we are observing the games from a point of view of a normal person.

[steel imp]

.

[azure bay]

no, that seems a common corrupted soul behavior. They always do something like that. It's hard to keep them against their will

[steel imp]

Could you mention another ohysics breaking example that isn't albert?

[azure bay]

teleportation

probably time travel

[steel imp]

Everyone does that

The law is the norm

[azure bay]

except we don't normally see 2 Dales in 1 room

but we do see 2 Lauras and 2 Rabbits

while one of them is corrupted

also Corrupted souls may change ambience

break glass just by touching it

make blood appear

or blue fire

voltage spikes

darkness in general

all that stuff from ghost stories

[steel imp]

I have no more ground to fight one

I give up

[royal notch]

How many plans of reality are there in Rusty Lake? Why in Paradox we experience so many different realities?

[vivid bridge]

Paradox is a simulation inside Dale's mind, so its not reality

[azure bay]

As for now, we have 5 versions of the events

• Dale is the ruler
• Dale sacrificed himself to save Laura
• Laura never died
• Dale's parents were never killed
• Rose didn't finish Roots

[royal notch]

No, you didn't get what I meant.

I'm not talking about timelines.

Rather about actual multiverse.

[azure bay]

The lake, the cubes, probably cubes inside cubes

[royal notch]

In Paradox, Dale shows various connection with a "more real" or "less real" world. These are the game and the movie.

Is Dale actually travelling different plans of reality?

[azure bay]

and at the same time Dale experiences the movie right after ch2, according to the ending

[royal notch]

Where he sees the "minor reality", let's say, in the TV.

The contrary happens in the game.

[azure bay]

yeah

so?

does it contradict Dale becoming "more real" after ch2?

[royal notch]

No, it just doesn't explain it. Admit it, it's hard to believe that a dude can travel through different plans of reality like that, without a single advise in any other games.

[azure bay]

that's what we see

Dale enters the cube

and suddenly he awakes in a more real environment

this concept of "more/less real" is exclusive to Paradox crossover

Even TPW doesn't play that much with 3D/2D feeling differently

3D suddenly turns 2D and Rose doesn't acknowledge it

[royal notch]

I agree, and that's what has waked me up after all these years. I didn't make a big deal at first, seeing a human Dale in the game and a cartoonish one in the movie; but after replaying it after TPW I realized how many times Dale actually REMEMBERS about the "plus reality", while the precedent version of himself, the human one, REMEMBERS about the "minus reality" (in the tape). So there are connection about different plans of reality, and that raises the question: how many can there be?

[azure bay]

ehhh

4 at most

for each media

[royal notch]

At least.

[azure bay]

It can be a game, a movie, a comicbook and a book

I've never seen plays based on such franchises

[royal notch]

Oh, the books tell different versions too?

[azure bay]

A movie can show more than a game without need for gameplay. A book can tell more than a movie without screen time restrictions

[royal notch]

But why the real ending must be in the "minus reality"? Can't Dale find the golden cube in the 2° chapter in the "plus reality"?

[azure bay]

I think you are overthinking

[royal notch]

What's the point to experience different plans of reality if in the end you just stays in your own?

[azure bay]

or rather I have a reasonable answer

because they didn't have an elevator to reuse nor the budget to created it from scratch

[royal notch]

I'm sure i am, but dude, not even 5 months ago i was the peak of the opinion that there are not different timelines in Rusty Lake. The description of UB definitely destroyed me, soooo... i don't know anymore what to believe.

[azure bay]

because they are not much more than mere different media

[royal notch]

This is breaking the 4° wall.

[azure bay]

not quite, these are objective limitations imposed onto their storytelling

being able to see a different media version of yourself is already meta enough

[royal notch]

But Dale doesn't just see, he actually becomes so.

I would get what you mean if the game and the movie weren't so much connected.

[azure bay]

and eventually goes back to status-quo just like after evey other crossover

[royal notch]

I repeat, the connection are so much that it's hard, at least for me, to deny as an actual piece of lore.

[azure bay]

it still can be

[royal notch]

Actually, we can't even get the real ending without confronting with the movie; it's the only way to get the achievements.

[azure bay]

and so? what's the conclusion?

[royal notch]

Storytelling, it could mean that Dale has to REMEMBER precise details from the loops in the "plus reality".

[azure bay]

still means he's back

in the game world

[royal notch]

Yes, i know.

But it's weird.

The same result could have been obtained using only "minus realities".

[azure bay]

there's a big part of gameplay but we're unsure how much

I recall another think

Dale calls himself less real even before he discovers a more-real-self

[royal notch]

That's exactly what i'm talking about.

[azure bay]

What I mean, he considers a "more real" as a norm

I have a quick theory

Normally it's us who see it all as games

[royal notch]

But within them...

[azure bay]

The characters probably see themselves as their movie versions

and only in Paradox Dale started to see a game

[royal notch]

I thought as much, the question is why? It's a thing that traumatizes, actually.

[azure bay]

maybe among other thigs Paradox is a quest for reality

[royal notch]

Failed, it seems.

[azure bay]

Don't think so

because maybe after that Dale starts consistently see himself as real

and only we see the game again

[royal notch]

It still doesn't explain everything. Like the notes "D." leaves for himself. When would he write those and how could those end in the next room?

[azure bay]

maybe that's his mind

or OWl

[royal notch]

I'm also doubting Paradox is a linear loop. If Dale in the ends finds a memory, doesn't it mean that he's actually going backwards? Not in the next room, but in the previous?

[azure bay]

I think he enters an alternative room

a copy of the 1st one

[royal notch]

Argh, i don't even know if he actually enters the cubes anymore.

[azure bay]

I think he does

but just like real cubes they are timelines

[royal notch]

Different timelines in different realities. It all start from here for me, i was just looking for an escape room game.

[vivid bridge]

the "leaving notes from the previous loop" is a classic trope of the medium

Yeah it doesn't really make sense but it doesn't have to

[azure bay]

I'd rationalize that by subconsciousness

[vivid bridge]

yeah

you could do that

its the same thing with the other dale's in the forest

[azure bay]

no, that was exclusive for CDale

who's travelling between iterations

[stone bramble]

im gonna put this in here also

the eilanders got enlightened after paradise. they became animal people. but mr owl' note to mr boar sugguests that theyve been long time friends and im assuming the hotel guets dont have memories from their past life. so is there like a society of people with animal heads lol

[azure bay]

1. it's been almost 100 years since Paradise
2. yes, there's likely a society... AND WE NEED IT HIGHLIGHTED!!!!!!!111!!!

[stone bramble]

yee im saying like the letters suggests like oh they probably met somewhere other than paradise

but yesss animal soceity I wish to see them

[azure bay]

Ithink Pheasant's and Rabbit's poster are more strong evidence

[queen steeple]

don't they just have

lost memories

it's the eilanders but without their past memories

[azure bay]

honestly, we don't really know

[queen steeple]

and the reason for killing is revenge or memory harvesting

we should focus on harvey

[azure bay]

either that or it's a poorly retconned origin story

[azure bay]

it's getting the prophecy

[queen steeple]

?

getting the prophecy

wdym

[azure bay]

the ending

[queen steeple]

dont remember the hotel ending, isn't it just the corrupted souls?

[azure bay]

"the memories are not only the key to the past but also to the future" "have a look, I found my future successor"

[queen steeple]

oh aaaaaaaah

paradox

alr

got it

[azure bay]

Actually it was rather Bday/Theatre

[azure bay]

It's easier to say that asuras are like Rowling's mages hiding among normal people by looking at Boar's letter. But the posters mean that these 2 have to perform for other asuras and there sould be enough of them to stay in showbiz

[stone bramble]

yee truu

I would love to see this explored more

[carmine field]

I forgot to ask you about it

for Mr. Owl had seen the future, was it really necessary for the guests to be killed? Or could it be other asuras, humans or any other being?

Could this be related to the statues we see in Paradise?

[terse niche]

The future is the golden cube

I think

Is in it

Rose creates a golden cube containing the future (with the old herself) in The Past Within in the past.

We don't know what future Dale and Laura create

Perhaps containing a new elixir

[azure bay]

I have no idea

[azure bay]

The 1st key to the future we saw was white. There, it was literal.

Then we've got Paradise where Caroline's memories were the key to Jakob's future. Only that time it was only a metaphor. They were used to create elixir that made the fate happen.

And in TPW it's literal again.

Speaking of The Cave, it's unclear. Yes, it's a golden cube too, but it's made differently. It's not "the energy from the future" but elixir like in Paradise. Dale's case is a lot like Jakob's in general, so it could be just a metaphor too. Just elixir making Dale's fate happen.

[covert wyvern]

@serene gust dont advertise

.mute @serene gust 24h you should know better by now, too, read the server #✅｜rules

[sweet zephyr]

lamuda#6160 was muted.

[carmine field]

This is something that leaves me in doubt. The idea that Mr. Owl simply wanted to get revenge on the family doesn't make much sense to me

[queen steeple]

paradise being metaphorical might also just been a mistake on caroline's part?

it was meant literal but taken metaphorically

perhaps?

[azure bay]

nah

[queen steeple]

or an uncomplete/fake-ish golden cube

[azure bay]

Caroline was always the smartest gal on the island

[queen steeple]

well ofc

[azure bay]

what's more

[queen steeple]

mr owl's mind is most likely caroline right?

I mean jakob was never that smart or knowledgeable about the lake unless he learned

[azure bay]

no, it's just Monika Jakob

[queen steeple]

wheres caroline tho

[azure bay]

and no knowledge on how to make elixir himself

[queen steeple]

yeah, just from caroline's books

[azure bay]

maybe reborn as something else by that time

[carmine field]

the rise period of Mr. Owl is still pretty foggy, but I think he had an extensive learning journey to learn all sorts of things

[queen steeple]

yeah that makes sense

so what's the deal with harvey though

how did harvey attain enlightment

since harvey's the first one ig

[carmine field]

Harvey is something I dare not comment on until UB is released

We don't know how Harvey was enlightened, and we have no idea

[azure bay]

Harvey is something I will not dare to comment probably even after UB is released

For some reason, I don't really expect much insight on Harvey himself in UB

maybe it will confirm him as some kind of time travelling demigod

but his enlightenment...

the wrong time period

[carmine field]

Btw, what do you think of the subway lines? There are two mentioned so far, probably one being the main subway line and the other to the Distribution Center

[azure bay]

Don't really reacall them naming 2 lines specifically

I mean

the amount to be 2

[carmine field]

C-line and L-line

[azure bay]

doesn't ring a bell

the C-line I mean

[carmine field]

C-line is mentioned in the newspaper, probably not a coincidence

[azure bay]

I only remember L-line being under construction

[queen steeple]

Ub doesn't look like it will have anything on harvey yeah

[carmine field]

I imagine these metro lines may have been modified in some way, being machines for traveling between cubes, but not sure lol

[azure bay]

I'm almost sure it's just an artistic choice

with next to no lore implications

[azure bay]

nope, L-line only

[vivid bridge]

i'm sure there is gonna be an in-universe explanation of the subway

[carmine field]

I meant the ARG newspaper

[azure bay]

ah, ok

not sure it's that UB related but will be cool

[azure bay]

wishful thinking?

[carmine field]

if it was just an artistic choice, why did the devs decide to mention the subway in the newspaper articles? It's like they're emphasizing that there's something

[azure bay]

In the demo the article is just as much of a construct as the stations themselves. L-line being closed probably means the game being still in development

[vivid bridge]

none of the other games have a framing device this obvious and then not have it be part of the actual game

the entire series is built on the premise that the reason we're seeing these memories is because we're LITERALLY going inside these memory cubes

[azure bay]

And still, we're most certainly getting the events that are confirmed not to happen in a subway. Plus, of all the characters why would Harvey need something as redundant as a train to travel through cubes?

I don't like it being just a big metaphor either. But that's the only reasonable way to see all this with the evidence established

[vivid bridge]

Idk, we'll have to wait til the game comes out

[vivid bridge]

its just so unlike rusty lake, though

[azure bay]

making a movie used to be unlike

[vivid bridge]

yeah but even the movie is part of the game's story

[azure bay]

making a narrative game like TWD

making 3D

making coop

it seems, it's the age of experiments

[vivid bridge]

yeah but those are innovating. Just not explaining the framing device seems like a downgrade to me

[azure bay]

it may seem so

and showing Laura's death for the 5th time may seem old

[carmine field]

before leaving to go to bed...

Unless it's a coincidence, I think the C-line would be the subway line to the Distribution Center. If so, it's curious to think that the two metro lines are supposed to not be running, but Harvey could use them for some reason

[azure bay]

I'm not so sure if the Distr Center is ported to the full game anymore

We've got images of Rose's old lab

[carmine field]

I'm not sure either

[azure bay]

with assets well-done

and some extra assets that don't have to be there

as if these are teasers

I'd assume that could be the secret lvl of UB

but in that case Disrt Center becomes kinda redundant

the thing that's incomparably difficult to get teases just a secret ending lvl

however, I have reasons to believe that we're getting back to Disrt Center again later this year

if it's true, it's more likely to happen in the full game

because it makes the demo inaccessible by normal means

[carmine field]

One other thing that complements this thinking is that both trains seem to have a connection with Mr. Owl

I don't remember any time when Mr. Crow did a job that wasn't for Mr. Owl (but his presence could just be something in Harvey's head). Meanwhile, the other line belongs to BKM, which in turn is also related to Mr. Owl

[frosty wolf]

hey go to bed i am too and read all three hundred messages tomorrow

[azure bay]

I'd rather bet on the second line leading to a secret ending rather than ARG

[carmine field]

thanks for remembering me lol

[azure bay]

could be both

[carmine field]

It's also possible

yea

[azure bay]

but by default it's the secret ending

[carmine field]

I guess we'll have to wait and see

well

good night (unless it's already morning there)

[frosty wolf]

going to crawl into my box now

[queen steeple]

the vanderboom house is built on top of the cave where caroline does research?

[vivid bridge]

No

Caroline's cave is underneath the island where the hotel stands

[queen steeple]

ah so hotel is on the paradise island?

[vivid bridge]

Yes

[queen steeple]

ok makes sense

[vivid bridge]

The vanderboom house is on the mainland

[queen steeple]

alr I see

also there's a 3rd vanderboom brother along with aldous and william

yk the unnamed one

[vivid bridge]

Presumably

[azure bay]

Some think Aldous was James' father

[queen steeple]

ah ok got it, it's not said if james is the nephew of aldous but only william

so yeah thats possible

caroline's book contains aldous

what

might be modified tho nvm

[queen steeple]

how does rose know about harvey?

[azure bay]

Probably Frank

[queen steeple]

I guess it would make sense

but harvey's asura form?

[vivid bridge]

Rusty Lake characters just know whatever the plot needs them to know

[azure bay]

that contradicts the evidence on hand

[queen steeple]

yeah

hoping to what UB will reveal

[azure bay]

I think it's just gameplay

[atomic shale]

Makes sense.

[maiden pebble]

I got a question

[azure bay]

uy?

[maiden pebble]

Why everyone have N written on their hands. And why don't Ida have it . Game is rusty lake roots

[azure bay]

just tendons

[terse niche]

One thing I just remembered. In the secret Birthday's cutscene you can see the guests escape from the Rusty Lake Hotel. Harvey still crow, even in his asura form.

https://youtu.be/TdyFd72wG2c?t=3124

Yes it is my own video. I delete it if it goes against the rules, but it serves to show what I'm saying.

This may help confirm that Harvey does not have a human form

[sudden dust]

yeah, you’re allowed to post your videos here (unless ofc it’s not rl related then it goes in #🛖｜the-cabin )

[sudden dust]

i always thought that Harvey is an enlightened animal, that’s why we never see him fully human, always asura or animal.
like Mr Crow is an enlightened human, so we only see him as an asura or human, never an actual animal crow
it’s debatable though, because in underground blossom ||we see that harvey has a parrot head but also has human hands (though maybe all asuras can change to human hands)||

[terse niche]

These are my exact thoughts!

[floral mauve]

the hands part are hard to tell, they can use human tools perfectly

so I assume it doesnt make much a difference

[sudden dust]

some asuras have hooves/animal paws (boar, deer) while others have simply feathered/furry human hands (pheasant,rabbit) but all of them can use and hold things perfectly fine so i don’t think that part matters

did harvey have human hands in hotel?

no not really just kinda feathery human hands

[floral mauve]

thats the problem, they seem function the same

no matter which kind

plus the birds creatures

often wear gloves

[sudden dust]

yeah

[floral mauve]

thus, no need to differentiate

[sudden dust]

was he wearing gloves in ub?

[floral mauve]

I think so

yep

the hand looks quite similar to Mr rabbit hand

which was a possibility before easter egg got discovered

[sudden dust]

yeah i did it bc i think harvey is a parrot/asura rather than human/asura like mr crow

seems like they can all have human hands though

[terse niche]

Asuras are anthropomorphic animals so both animal and human traits mixed are to be expected.

[visual coral]

The devs said that Harvey came from a black egg, so, yeah, parrot is his original form

[maiden pebble]

I can be incorrect but you are using wrong term. Asura means demon not enlightened. The correct term should be enlightened. Asura are corrupted soul and mr. Crow as shown in rusty lake roots

And I have a question. In rusty lake roots: there is a painting of rose holding Laura in front of the tree when rose was not even born

That means mr. crow know the future

[vivid bridge]

We've seen multiple characters be able to look into the future

[carmine field]

• In the RL universe, enlightenment apparently means moving to a higher state, perhaps not following the natural flow of the cycle but still staying within the cycle. William's rebirth and people transforming to asura are examples of 'enlightenment' within RL universe

• No, asura are not the corrupted souls. Corrupted souls are 'preta', another stage of the cycle

[maiden pebble]

I am confused at that because of this picture in rusty lake roots, sorry for bad quality

[carmine field]

about the painting thing, we discussed about this sometime ago, let me find it

found it

[carmine field]

The writings in the timepieces do not represent the paintings. On the contrary, they seem to be not related

For example, the golden timepiece, 'deva'

In the third painting, there is no deva

The only deva we've met so far is Dale

[carmine field]

Even if they were related, 'asura' could very well be referring to the crow, which is in fact an asura

[sacred cliff]

we werent wearing gloves tho

[sudden dust]

would that be gloves

[carmine field]

No nails

[sudden dust]

oh true

[carmine field]

It has to be gloves

[sudden dust]

yeah it makes sense now

[carmine field]

@sacred cliff (just pinging)

[sacred cliff]

OHHHH

alr im dumb

[carmine field]

no you arent

[floral mauve]

[strange raft]

go study

[carmine field]

?

[strange raft]

The guy above me

[carmine field]

To avoid confusion, I want to clarify that when I say 'Rusty Lake', I'm specifically referring to the in-game organization.

I bring a subject: how much influence Mr. Owl have?

I believe the common sense is that, for Mr. Owl being the Ruler of the Lake and the owner of the Hotel, he has power over several institutes (Hotel, Theatre, MHaF/TWD, BKM...) and is known in asura society. However, possible clues could indicate that he is much more influential than that:

• 1: 'Rusty Lake Pilsener' coasters and 'Rusty Lake Cigars' box, bearing the same branding ('Rusty Lake' and the three-cube design) and the same year (1889). As we see in Hotel, the Cigars really belong to Rusty Lake, being the secret recipe of the game Rusty Lake Hotel, so presumably the same goes for the Pilsener.

• 2: The statue of Mr. Owl in Child Lane of Underground Blossom. It's curious because the statue specifically represents his asura form, and humans don't question that. Unless subway stations are, in fact, a metaphysical reality where the scenery doesn't matter, it's weird.

• 3: Mr. Owl has his own design on the money, called 'Rusty Money', specifically on the 10 bank note. This is probably the weakest clue, because it could very well be nothing.

• 4: Within the asura society, Mr. Owl meets scientists, a magician, an actress and... an ambassador. We don't know where Mr. Boar is from, and who is his and Mr. Owl's 'mutual friend'. Still, it could be a clue.

[sacred cliff]

what if the owl in sasmara room is younger mr owl 🤨

[carmine field]

I just finished the corrections of the text I wrote, that's why I didn't send everything it yet btw

Continuing...

Thanks to clues 2 and 3, we can think that Mr. Owl is publicly known in his asura form, and that perhaps his human guise is just to avoid recognition or for convenience. If people really know about the existence of the asura society, it makes sense that Dale wouldn't even question Mr. Crow when the two first met in Case 23.
Clues 3 and 4 complement each other, as perhaps Mr. Owl might be so powerful in the region as to invite an ambassador from elsewhere into his place.
Clue 1 indicates that Mr. Owl is involved in businesses that are not necessarily related to the Lake.

What do you think of it? I'm not sure of anything, I'm just opening a discussion.

[azure bay]

Clues 2 and 3 are both very weak. I think the statue is just as unreal and metaphorical as the subway itself

Rusty Money are unlikely to be real either because otherwise Dale would be very suspicious about them during Case 23

[carmine field]

I think I agree with ya

[azure bay]

no younger than in Hotel

if that is Mr. Owl

[carmine field]

On the second point, it's not like there's a clear connection between Mr. Owl and the investigation files. Not even the Hotel is mentioned.

[azure bay]

Not even speaking of Mr. Owl

I'm speaking of RUSTY money

"for months, I could not think about anything else than [...] Rusty Lake"

[carmine field]

true

But it could also be that Dale had Rusty Money in mind, he just didn't include it in the investigation. The same with the Hotel

He could be considering only the archive Laura had in her safe

[visual coral]

Rusty Money appears in Bob's memory, so if anyone had to have Owl in his head it's him. And he did. Quite literally. So money is for sure not real.

[carmine field]

The one in the text, isn't it? I theorized some time ago that this could have been a scene between Mr. Owl and william

[carmine field]

Bob has never seen Mr. Owl's asura form. And all the memories before the shooting were pretty literal

Except for TV on the 3rd dream

[visual coral]

Crow did. And if he was the one to extract Bob's memories it could explain him being present there.
Plus, we can't even know for sure if what we see in TWD are actually Bob's memories. Or if they were in Owl's possession they could've been changed.
But still, Dale would've questioned the money if it was real.

[vivid bridge]

I really dislike the idea that Mr. Owl is really famous in the human world. Takes a lot from the mystery element and makes Dale's investigation kinda stupid

[azure bay]

I see no reasons to alter most of them

[carmine field]

The interaction between Mr. Crow and Bob shown in a Paradox secret is canon?

[visual coral]

I think in some alternative timeline it could've happed but I'm leaning towards it just being an easter egg and a teaser for TWD

[carmine field]

I think it might even be canon, but it wasn't shown. It would probably take place between Dream 6 and Day 1

Or maybe it's the same thing that happened to Dale.
Dale had an appointment with Mr. Crow, but it doesn't seem to have happened in reality, only in the Paradox Room

Perhaps something similar had happened to Bob?

[bronze prism]

Hello, I know everyone's into the new games recently, but has anyone ever watched Twin Peaks or any other David Lynch related work?

[bronze prism]

Maybe Blue Velvet?

[vivid bridge]

I watched some of Twin Peaks

[stone bramble]

ive watched twin peaks and erarserhead

[steel imp]

Mr. Owl is currently the top reppresentative of The Lake. He has control on most realities, including ours, since he is in possession if a golden cube.

About your clues

No. 1: asuras don't have the only goal to get a deva, they also have a personal life to some extent. Mr. Owl could have just the hobby of merchandising

2: We don't know what Underground Blossom is (as much as I tend to consider everything tangible)

3: Yeah, I doubt that Rusty Money are a thing

4: Usually Asuras have a human form, human hobbies but also human jobs. Mr. Boar could be USA's ambassador, to make an example.

[carmine field]

[azure bay]

Technically he isn't. It's given to Dale to use. Where it ends up is a mystery

and even if Owl had it

we don't know what's inside but it likely wouldn't affect the reality that matters for Owl

[carmine field]

About the continuity of The White Door flashbacks.

The scene in Theatre took place around the end of 1971, while the scene in the police station was in the summer of 1972.

Does this mean that Bob has gone half a year without memories? Perhaps he was existing as a corrupted soul, until he was found and arrested?

[sudden dust]

the flashbacks are dreams and the game’s way to show bobbert’s important events in his life i think

maybe nothing really significant during that time

[carmine field]

Well, we know that Bob lost his memory after the scene in Theatre, to the point where he couldn't even remember his own name (according to Day 1 and Dream 5)

And the time difference between these events is considerable

What could have happened to him?

[visual coral]

He could've been in the hospital where some genius medics somehow saved his life and didn't leave a scar (if the shot was real)

Also Owl could've something to do with it. He could've been behind Bob's arrest cause he wanted Dale to find the cubes and needed Bob after.

[carmine field]

I think that the shot could have killed him, even if only metaphorically, and that this plus the memory extraction could have caused Bob's corruption.

And then, the change from corrupted soul to human restored him somehow.

not sure how

[carmine field]

It's a possibility

[visual coral]

I also think that extraction of the memories caused Bob's corruption in Theater. But that begs the question what memories does he even have in the police station? I mean, he left a cube there so he gotta still have some.

[azure bay]

Technically, you always have some recent memories

Could be that

Could be more

I don't think it matters much

I'm not sure the devs know

[visual coral]

That's a good point. But does he remember Laura?

[azure bay]

Does he need to?

[visual coral]

Owl wants his memories about Laura. If he in the police station already doesn't have any then what Owl said in TWD doesn't make any sense

[azure bay]

"Owl just needs Laura's memories" never really made sense in TWD

what he's doing is giving them back to Bob

so he either needs memories AND Bob

or returns Bob to more or less initial state before setting him free

[visual coral]

The way Owl talks about Bob's mind becoming useless without Laura's memories suggests that he really needs them

[azure bay]

not sure

[visual coral]

We don't know if that's the only thing he needs

But he goes as far as to say that Bob's is his most important patient

I'm willing to bet that memories is what he wants

[azure bay]

either way he can always be a good test subject no matter what Owl needed

[visual coral]

Sure

[slow ridge]

Do anyone realize Roots is the only game which no cubes are shown?

[vivid bridge]

Technically the alchemy minigame has cubes

[steel imp]

It's hinted that he is the Ruler of the Lake and that he is in possesion of a golden cube. These are the maxium status symbols in RL

[azure bay]

The golden cube is mostly just a form of elixir, I'm sure of it. And "the ruler of the lake" is just a factual title. Owl is one because he took it over. And Dale will become one because Owl will make him.

[steel imp]

The golden cube is the key to the future. It shown in The Cave and in TPW

The future being the reality

[azure bay]

So were Caroline's memories in Paradise and they contained no future in any literal way. At the same time in TPW the golden cube was created explicitly using the future energy, unlike the one in The Cave where it's created with elixir memories and marked with elixir insignia

so far there's nothing that lets us say what future would be inside Dale's gc

and chances are, there's none in particular

[steel imp]

Are you saying there are two golden cubes?

[azure bay]

we've seen 2 different cubes across the series

[steel imp]

Redesign

[azure bay]

I mean

[steel imp]

Albert got redesifned

Too

[azure bay]

dude, I'm not speaking of designs

I'm speaking of creation and usage. Probably there is some general rule that would explain the difference but until then there's next to nothing to indicate that the cubes are 100% similar

[steel imp]

Could yoh remember me that Occam knife thing?

[azure bay]

here's where I'm coming from

1. you don't need the gc to contain the future

[steel imp]

Oops, Occam Razor

[azure bay]

2. The Cave implies the cube to be a. Elixir and b. a key to the future

3. It's created using William's memories of elixir

4. In Paradise Caroline's formula is meant to create a cube too

5. Her memories are a key to the future too

6. She ends up creating elixir using these memories

7. The gc of TPW was created using energy from a specific point in time

what I'm saying

TPW seems to be the weird here

it breaks the pattern established in previous games

maybe Dale's cube contains the future too

but we have no way to say what future

and why that future

and for what reason do they need that future

but what we do know, Dale needs elixir

and we even know why

this situation makes me think of Corrupted souls

there's so many differrent cases

some involve elixir, some involve death, some involve cubes, some involve human bodies

and all are called corrupted souls and act more or less the same

they are special cases for some general rule we're trying to unravel

and so are golden cubes, I think

and possibly cubes in general

[steel imp]

Yes but the biggest leap you are taking is to call out two types of golden cubes

Kinda of reminds me your main point against Elianders ≠ Guests

[azure bay]

I meant, they are not the same object

And still they are created differently and may act somewhat differetly

there's really next to nothing to indicate that Dale's cube contains a future

just like white cube can contain a future, so Dale's golden cube could contain a past

or conceptual elixir

[steel imp]

.

[azure bay]

not quite

[steel imp]

There's the book. The Cave js before TPW

[azure bay]

yes and in the bokk it's said to be elixir

just like in Paradise

[steel imp]

At that point it was already implied that the golden cube is the key to the future

Actually

It wasn't implied

It was written there

[azure bay]

just like cubes in Paradise

just like the white cube in Hotel

[azure bay]

I imply that there are 2 subtypes of golden cubes

[steel imp]

Irrelevant, I say. A catchphrase used all over the franchise, however, the cave actually gave a meaning to that catchphrase: the goldenc ube

[azure bay]

no, Hotel was the 1st

what we have

1. a case where the future key doesn't have to be a golden cube
2. a case where the future key doesn't have to be literal

3. a case repeating 2) in many ways that happens to feature a golden cube

4. a weird golden cube created in a weird and very specific way that contains the future literally

they don't fit altogether

[steel imp]

The white cube isn't said to be the key to the future

Memories are

What memories though

The golden cube, indeed

[azure bay]

"memories are a key to the future, now look into the white cube and see the future"

[steel imp]

Nope

Before you look into the white cube

You have to re-examine all the black cubes

Memories, indeed

Not the white cube

[azure bay]

the future phrase is said after you've looked into the tanks

[steel imp]

You have to look again

Before unveiling the white cube

[azure bay]

1. Owl thanks us for the memories
2. We see the souls
3. Owl continues and speaks of the future revealing the white cube and inviting us to look

technically you can look into the tanks again

but Owl wants you to look into the white cube

[steel imp]

By this hypotesis, The Lake will be grateful would be ascociated to the black cubes (?)

[azure bay]

the lake will be gratefull for whatever is coming next

it's Owl's business

Harvey's part is done

[steel imp]

How Owl speech is following the theory:

• catchphrase that hints to a significant thing
• take a look
• unveiling of a significant thjng

[azure bay]

it literally contains the future

without being gold

[steel imp]

How Owl unveils black cubes

• the lake will be grateful
• take a look
• unveiling of black cubes

[steel imp]

Wat

It literally shows the forest

Which is in the lake, which is timeless

[azure bay]

and it literally shows Dale

[steel imp]

How can you identify future into something without time?

[steel imp]

And? He is still submerged into a timeless envorinement. Your claims of future are irrelevant no matter the components of it.

[azure bay]

you are overthinking. Owl says that the cubes show future, tells you to look and see the future. That's it. Fair and simple

[steel imp]

.

[steel imp]

.

This doesn't make sense

[azure bay]

sorry, that's rubbish

[steel imp]

Explain yourself

[azure bay]

these are not "just catch phrases"

Owl speaks of the future in the context of the white cube

which technically shows the future

[steel imp]

They originated as such, their meaning is assigned in future establishkent, such as the cave

[azure bay]

Dale doesn't arrive to Hotel at that point in time

Dale arrives to hotel in 1972

[steel imp]

Dale never arrives to Hotel

[azure bay]

Dale eventually arrives to Hotel and that will be his great finale

and it will take place in 1972

and Dale's elevator trip is said to take place in 1972

[steel imp]

Are you refering to the snow globe?

[azure bay]

both times we directly witness it

[azure bay]

the white cube shows Dale arriving to the hotel via elevator

it depicts his journey that will happen almost a century later

it is the future

and it is white

and it can't be retconned to be golden

[steel imp]

Ofc

I rephrase

Dale didn't arrive to Hotel in 1972

[azure bay]

he will

his journey is already marked as 1972

the beginning

and every point in between

[steel imp]

He won't

And I have a theory to make it work

So leaving apart Hotel, Dale starts his journey from Paradox, then procedes to Birthday and then to Theatre

The following stop should be Hotel

But what if I told you we already saw Dale there?

We saw him in the snowglobe

Mr. Owl gives a tangible item to Dale

However... that it's not the future

That is, technically, the past

We see in the white cube (a form of past), Dale gettinf to the elevator to the Hotel. Dale is not travelling to the future, he's travelling to the past

Dale's journey is actually Paradox, Birthday, Hotel, Theatre

[azure bay]

dude

[steel imp]

Yes?

[azure bay]

the snow globe isn't the part of Dale's journey. It's part of Birthday and Birthday only.

Everything says that Dale is going to the hotel. 1st of all, the white cube. An elevator journey from the bottom to the top. Then the elevator itself. The same Harvey used to get to the guests with the same -1 button missing (the big white cube from The Cave). Then we have Paradox where the globe depicts Dales story starting from the massacre, continuing with the case 23 and ending at the hotel. Also the elevator in Paradox is driven by Mr. Bat.

[steel imp]

Here's the thing:

-1: cave big cube
0: paradox
1: birthday
2: theatre

Where's 3 for Hotel?

[azure bay]

no, everything between -1 and 0 is the lake

and Pradox takes place during The Cave itself

then 0 is the lobby and rest are the floors

[steel imp]

I give up. This conversation has been going for too long

[carmine field]

0, 1 and 2 are the floors of the Hotel

And it kind of doesn't make sense for them to be Birthday or Theatre, as those two are accessed by cubes floating in Lake

[carmine field]

About that, I noticed a pattern between Laura's and Bob's memory extraction.

Laura had her memory extracted and taken to the Lake, where the memories belonged, before the cubes were captured by Mr. Crow in order to make the golden cube.
Wouldn't it have been simpler to have just picked up the cubes and taken them to the white room at the right time instead of feeding the Lake?

Bob apparently had his memory extracted in Theatre, and Mr. Owl said that Bob's memories belonged to the Lake as well.
The same question: wouldn't it have been easier just to store the memories to use them later instead of feeding the Lake?

It's as if feeding the Lake before using the memories was necessary. What do you think?

[royal notch]

For The Mill, i use to think that Mr Crow couldn't keep the memories because otherwise Laura's corrupted soul would have definitely killed him or Harvey (or at least attacked).

[carmine field]

Well, the guests' cubes are in the Lake, but that doesn't stop them from attacking

[idle lark]

I’m currently playing all the games and taking notes to understand the lore, I’m so excited to talk w ppl so I can understand this stuff

[royal notch]

The guest and Laura don't have to act similarly just because of being corrupted souls. In The Mill Mr Crow actively tries to convince Laura on giving up on her memories ("Leave them all behind. Your memories belong to the Lake now. Please, leave.".).

The guest could be on a frenzy rage for having been treacherously killed.

Laura's corrupted soul had also killed the old woman in a strike of rage. But after the realization that her memories are gone, she leaves, without having to spread more blood.

[carmine field]

Maybe she went after her memories?

[azure bay]

I think it's not only feeding but also preserving

[carmine field]

ohhh

[azure bay]

At least the devs said that "the lake needs memories and memories need the lake to be preserved"

Also taking Laura's memories for elixir makes me think that it's somewhat ok?

As if they can take them once in a while as long as they provide enough supply?

However not sure

Technically, Laura's cubes stayed in the lake

The big white cube belongs to it

[vivid bridge]

I think its just poor story planning. They hadn't thought of the golden cube when they made The Mill

[azure bay]

Poor or not, that's our reality. Even though the devs add new concepts retroactively, they build them upon the existing games without decanonizing them.

Their answers about elixir in Seasons or cubes being preserved by the lake (presumably in The Cave) made it clear for me

[terse niche]

I think Laura leaves for the promise to undo her death or state of corruption or her memory of it. Mr. Crow says exactly the same in Seasons about everything she touches she changes

I think it's still entirely possible certain details of the story have changed over the years.

Initially the focus was on cubes and the lake until it turned to Laura, Dale, mind development, etc.

Initially Laura didn't even have a name

In the first games we started to receive little information about Rusty Lake, but later no more clues were given about it

[visual coral]

The voice in Seasons is most likely Laura's CS from winter 81. It says "Find me in the past" and she finds herself. Also winter is the only season the phone is silent.

[terse niche]

The voice sounds more like Mr. crow.

[carmine field]

That voice belongs to corrupted souls, not just Mr. Crow

[carmine field]

"Find me in the past" could be referring to the phone, as the beam comes out of it

[visual coral]

That would be the case if the phone was talking about himself. But since we know that it's Laura's CS trying to undo her death that line is pretty literal

[terse niche]

On the phone it can only be Mr. Crow we see him talking with that voice 2x in the mill, one talking to Dale on the phone and the other to Laura for her to release Harvey

[visual coral]

The reverse voice is not exclusive to Crow. CS also speak that way. In seasons in has to be Laura.
The very first phrase is "What do I remember" and it says that from the beginning we play as Laura's CS. And Seasons is her story about changing the past.
If it was Crow then after "Find me in the past" we would've seen him, but we see Laura, who once again says "It's me" while looking in the mirror

[steel imp]

I have reasons to belive that the voice we hear in the Mill is not Mr. Crow voice

And my source is Paradox: in Paradox we hear Mr. Crow actual voice, and the first time is through a telephone, nontheless. However, theres an easter egg in Paradox. If you call the number of Case 23, Chapter 1, "Rusty Lake" replies (just as in Case 23). The creepy reverse voice is the lake's voice. Corrupted souls appartain to the lake, and their mark is that voice.

[terse niche]

I find it very unlikely that anyone else is speaking at The Mill other than Mr. Crow and he uses multiple voices. We see him with a hoarse and old, young and deep and distorted voice.

[visual coral]

It's literally impossible to be anyone but Crow in the Mill. We play as him, we pick up that phone and talk to Dale