rework heat damage and passive dissipation

[full thistle]

it looks very silly that a single heat missile overheats and can melt megaroids

[frank smelt]

I mean... Mining missile people ?

I wouldn't remove it

[full thistle]

the problem is that the damage is proportional and rock has absurd max ho

no other weapon other than mining laser can do so much dos

dps

[lofty quiver]

Wait, does a mining laser apply heat damage now?

[full thistle]

no

unless you mean an overclocked mining laser melting itself

[lofty quiver]

Ah, ok. Inflicting heat would be a cool feature, in my opinion, for an overclocked mining laser since it already looks like it's melting the target.

[frank smelt]

meh ? It's redundant with the new turret

[olive sable]

OC:ed Mining Laser is already really strong too

[lofty quiver]

Good to know; from what I saw looking at its stats it looks like it got weaker, but I guess it also got a small area of effect? I'll have to see what that does when I get enough resources for proper cooling.

[olive sable]

It can essentially go through a layer of armor

Coupled with a 50 increase in range and no passive heat generation; it just eats smaller parts that are clumped together. Mining speed is roughly doubled as well.

[lofty quiver]

Cool!

Or rather, hot.

[hazy cove]

interesting

yeah i dont see this happening too much

missile applies immense heat and asteroid gets increasingly more ticking damage

[full thistle]

a single missile destroys it

[hazy cove]

i do feel like heat damage should have a max damage per tick

modded extreme example (it even has a lot of regen) and look at this

infinitely ramping up damage so sad

megaroids also yeah do that

i'm not sure what can be adjsuted

damage is exponential so maybe just a maxvalue at a good enough value?

[hazy cove]

alternatively (i'm not sure if it can be achieved currently) is limiting the max heat can be applied by canisters or resonance beams, giving some reason and still allowing other things to achieve higher heat

[full thistle]

i think it could also just spread wayyyy faster at high levels

[hazy cove]

eg. higher amplification allows a higher maximum heat applied, instead of infinitely applying more heat

as it stands, having much health just means you last a second or two longer

let me see how it looks if i cap the damage per tick to 2k

MaxValue = 2000

it does'nt seem to be applying, this is odd

[frank smelt]

heat spreading quicker would be nice for the victim and the weapon user.

[pseudo scroll]

agreed

that'd be a good way to have a soft-cap on per-part heat

[hazy cove]

a microwave can only excite matter up to a point so i dont think infinite makes sense for also that reason

wait.... i think its actually the product of DamagePerTileHealth

one sec

yeah that's what's up from what i understand from reading the code

it basically causes percent damage

oh god (that's not particularly good)

i feel like i should make a different post about this

but yeah this seems to stem from heat status straight up causing (base damage * part health/tiles)

i'm currently experimenting changing it to be just (Base damage * tiles)

instead of using DamagePerTileHealth, now using Damage

i just need to find which BaseValue is roughly equivalent to the previous damage delt to armor and try to base it off that

[full thistle]

i like that armor melts faster proportionallu

damage taken

[full thistle]

especially for rocks

[hazy cove]

these look the same

i might have nailed the exact math to convert by accident?

(16k damage)

yeah, other weaker parts get destroyed faster

(it still scales infinitely if constantly firing but its an improvement, damage scales by heat and not by health)

this takes longer to ramp-up but still ramps up

i think a way to avoid this is having the passive heat dissipation ramp up as well

i'll play with it

"every 500 heat the dissipation doubles"
"multiply by -0.005"

oh it doesnt like that

welp since it doesn't seem you can put StatusRemap in it this wouldn't work so i'll try something else

[echo hill]

This is a good idea because the greater the heat difference, the faster the transfer rate

[hazy cove]

that would be dispersion no?

i havent messed with that yet

i think you cant put 2 Type = Constant in ValueModulators{Modulators[]}

[full thistle]

it doesn't already?????

[hazy cove]

its a flat -0.05 heat status

i think

this part is what i cant wrap my head around to mod

anyway air can i hijack your thread's name to change it to "rework heat damage and passive dissipation" soon

[hazy cove]

this kind of works but weapon applying ramps up faster than dissipation at the scales i tested

[full thistle]

sure

rework heat damage and passive dissipation

[hazy cove]

i said soon 👹 i dont have the code and examples yet

[full thistle]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-wiggle-crazy-cat-zoomies-gif-9877358298643393466

[hazy cove]

Damage Demonstration

(yeah vanilla armor has a extra bit of thermal resistance but it didnt affect results too much)

Dissipation demonstration

.rules changes to heat.rules

And now for my explanation

Reworking heat damage:

I suggest a change to how the Heat status effect applies damage, as it stands now it deals a lot of damage to asteroids and especially megaroids. after a bit of investigation and experimenting it seems like heat damage deals damage proportional to the part's health per tile (Coming from DamagePerTileHealth)

this kinda of makes asteroids, parts with a lot of health per tile (such as "jimmy's 100x health super armor mod"), all have similar time to be destroyed, which doesn't make much sense

I messed around with values and changed the scaling damage to only deal damage per tile, instead of dealing what is essentially percentage damage

Replaces DamagePerTileHealth with normal Damage (basevalue of 16k damage seems to yield similar time to kill armor so i think its a good starting point)

[full thistle]

i think % damage is fine, just make it fall off really hard

or proportional damage rather

[hazy cove]

that's paragraph 8 of the essay

Passive Dissipation:

At very high heat levels heat just doesnt seem to.... even go away?

I messed with the values again and also added a constant valuemodulator to divide by 1.005
this ramps up the dissipation to be a quicker time to eventually fade out, and you can more reasonably wait for your partially overheated ship to cool down even if at the edge of the damage threshold.

Things i didn't mess with/could'nt but i think are important additions:

Either adding ValueClampRange = [0, (&MAX_HEAT)] Or adding a MaxValue to the Damage TickingEffects in order to have a maximum heat capacity or damage dealt by heat status.

for damage, something like 4k (armor health) or double/quadruple that makes sense for what you could really achieve

alternatively making damage stop climbing exponentially at some point, would also work

these would be to both reduce damage on asteroids/megaroids and high health/tile parts.

I also couldn't figure out how to make the Passive dissipation scale stronger at higher levels, letting in (a hypothetical scenario where health is not a concern) a resonance beam constantly hitting to eventually leave the target at a constant heat status level
also, something that generates very low amounts of heat could also have a stable amount of heat
i think this wouldn't really happen in vanilla based on what i just described though...

Another thing, is increasing heat spreading at very high heat status levels

[hazy cove]

Benefits of these changes:

its much more possible to temporarily enable overclocking in a pinch and still have a usable ship, instead of having those weapons be covered in heat for minutes

Megaroids, Asteroids don't get (as terribly) demolished by heat anymore, (but can be improved from just these .rules edits i proposed)

Soft insides would break a bit faster than armor,
less of a need to mess with DamageResistances for thermal damage too much

Heat status feels less permanent

-# Modded higher health armor and the like can more reasonably sustain damage against heat

Cons(?) i know of these changes

• temporary overclock is a bit more viable
• Heat damage is no longer percentage based and now more damage per area-based
• heat fades faster when unattended

[hazy cove]

Another little idea about this:

Heat to damage threshold could have a different value for asteroid typecategory (or just ship class).
That, along the passive exponential dissipation could turn asteroids with strong heat resistance and being able to survive in the sun's damage zone (if the status to asteroids is low enough)

but not being immune to heat damage per-say, so you could still hit it with resonance beams or missiles and it would, if you have enough power, still melt away asteroids

ok i think that's everything
-# hope that's a convincing argument 🥺

[dusk niche]

Why wouldn't it make sense for a 10,000 degree block of steel and 10,000 degree metal frame to vaporise in the same amount of time? Heat doesn't care about how mechanically tough something is

Give it heat damage resistance if it needs to be more resistant

I haven't properly read all your messages yet, but I will later

[dusk niche]

Also fwiw, this is only true because microwaves are primarily absorbed by water, which boils off at 100 degrees Celsius. The resonance beam is not explicitly a microwave beam, either

[hazy cove]

was trying to bring up a similar analogy but yeah

[full thistle]

i think the main change that just needs to be made is either a) faster dissapation as heat increases b) faster spread as heat increases (it's really not noticable at all currently for me) or maybe even both

[dusk niche]

Yeah might need a non-linear diffusion curve. It used to be much faster, but things would cool down before they really felt the effects of the heat they generated

[full thistle]

i'd like it if super super hot things exploded as well, since all that dot stack just dissappearing is a bit sad

[hazy cove]

to vaporize at once, i mean, yeah that would make sense
how heat works with its ticking damage it feels more like its only surface vaporizing and not the whole at once,

while it does make sense physically in that way, noticing it's doing damage like that way feels odd as a game mechanic and i'm not sure how to put into words now

having to do specific heat resistances per stronger blocks seems very cumbersome, even if in some cases it would be somewhat easy to apply at a larger scale (base_part on asteroids)

DamageResistances = [Thermal, 99.5%]

[full thistle]

i think a single thermal missile making the megaroid glow so intensely is silly even without the ludicrous dot it recieves

so i don't think the damage resist is the issue - it's that they take 10k 7k heat and instantly heat like a ship part

[hazy cove]

yeah i dont know how that could be changed to cater to that specifically
per part status capacity/effects multiplier?

feels odd

[manic jewel]

Giving OC weapons more shots before reaching deleterious heat levels and more passive heat dissipation opens the door for alpha-centric loadouts that kill now, dissipate later, circumventing a lot of otherwise important thermal investment.

[full thistle]

that is true

could just decrease the amount of heat to start taking damage then

[hazy cove]

it more of lowers the cooldown period as opposed to giving more shots so i dont think that changes how much alpha at once, only how often you can

[full thistle]

i am hoping that would not be an issue anyways because i find it's a lot harder to disengage with the speed changes

[manic jewel]

I find it much easier to disengage. Higher speed + worse acceleration makes for more natural openings

[full thistle]

interesting

we are having opposite opinions on almost every aspect of this update

perhaps we will see another meta divergence due to timezones like in some periods of classic

[manic jewel]

Watch some of our matches on the Tidepool. The council has had more time to get used to things. The best equalizer is diversity + time

or play with us 😀

[hazy cove]

the values can be adjusted, i mostly gave a semi random value in order for very-high heat to fade out at a more reasonable pace
it could go a bit lower to more original times, or do some curves that i could'nt manage to mess with myself

(this graph has no basis on the actual values its just for illustration)

[full thistle]

you play when it is 2 am for me despair

[manic jewel]

I’m not really a fan of making armor harder to get through since TRBs are already struggling to keep up as main weapons. Also, any big heat changes mean having to rebalance heat weapons again 😅

[hazy cove]

i'm pretty sure those values should do a similar (if not equal but didn't test super extensively other than a similar time countdown) damage to armor
if anything its a buff to hitting corridors and the like

for heat spreading though, not sure about that

[hazy cove]

(i forgot to mention this on the benefits, but yeah, in ship to ship combat, in vanilla the damage and dynamics doesn't really change in the grand terms)

[dusk niche]

I have considered making parts spread like 75% of their heat on death

[full thistle]

it's both good and bad that it it's lost on death since i really like using my deck cannons as emergency overclock on really old ships

[hazy cove]

i thought it spread some on death? based on some behaivour i was seeing

[dusk niche]

The 'proper' solution is considering material (part) heat capacities, but I've never put much thought into implementing it

[hazy cove]

atleast its not a system using defined material percentages like
40% tungsten
20% steel
1.2% carbon

[hazy cove]

-# i feel like dying on this hill
-# sorry if this ends up looking pushy

i do hope something like a max status cap/damage can be applied at least if nothing else,
vanilla doesn't have much of a extreme health per tile differences for it to be too influential (apart from asteroids)

having higher thermal damage resistance only delays the death of the part under constant fire (eg. TRB) by a small amount because of the exponentially increasing damage

-# and as a modded example: any regeneration would eventually fail to increasing heat damage (but could just passively remove its own heat to avoid that issue, possibly)

[hollow walrus]

Off the top of my head, the energy released by black body radiation scales with temperature to the 4th power.

(Though I’ve been out of town and haven’t had a chance to play with meltdown yet, so I don’t know the specific mechanics)

[hazy cove]

reviving this for some ideas before it becomes official update:

at minimum, adding statusresistances equivalent to a multiplier of the asteroid's health/health per 1x1 tile for asteroids and megaroids is already great

something that would also help is cap heat damage to a maximum per tick, because of the exponential increase it would just keep getting stronger and the time for a part to break wouldn't be linear per how much status and damage resistance and etc you apply to the block

i dont think damage caps really work with DamagePerTileHealth so that's that unfortunately

BUT i think instead that could be handled with a cap on the value it remaps to
like limit the maximum value from the ticking damage RemapFrom = [700, 4600] to not surpass a limit

alternatively, just capping how much cosmoteer.heat can be applied per tile
changing from ValueClampRange = [0, Infinity] to something like ValueClampRange = [0, 5000] or whatever value would make sense for a extreme damage, i think a value that would be equivalent to "when completly covered, 1-tick destroy any part with 0% damage resistance" would be perfect (adjust the value slightly so that vanilla armor is also considered since it has some resistance)

actually i'm gonna try making (another) mod that does these changes i'm curious what they can do and would'nt really impact vanilla

[hazy cove]

some testing seems to suggest 5000 heat is a good cap for maximum heat value (i cant seem to get anything higher before parts explode)
(exept on asteroids)
maximum heat cap might be unecessary though

[hazy cove]

Mod with changes (main point being the asteroid changes)
this is almost what i'd say i would want to see as the changes

theres just this extra change that is broken about megaroids that would need some way to fix but that is more technical, its about status grid affecting it properly instead of being 4x as big because of the grid size #1397759364852355266 message

[dusk niche]

I mentioned it elsewhere, but I have been considering adding some kind of 'capacity factor' to the status system - ie. Heat Capacity

Specifically for asteroids

Probably too complicated for stable release, but maybe afterwards

[hazy cove]

yeah!!!!
that would be a much better system for the future

and i rambled about a while ago i think

[hazy cove]

for now these are probably good enough to be a temporary solution

[dusk niche]

I think heat resistance for asteroids works close enough to Heat Capacity considering they don't have any heat management parts, yeah