#šŸ“œLore

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spare fox
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Is there any explanation in the japanese guide for why Melbu Frahma looked like that?

Melbu_Frahma.webp
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Maybe like side effects of the Crystal Sphere making him part-Virage?

pallid igloo
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Magic power go brrr

jovial yew
# spare fox Is there any explanation in the japanese guide for why Melbu Frahma looked like ...

Not much, really. The guidebook moreso refers to his role as a Wingly. Personal details mostly focus on how he needed not one, but two restraining devices. One for his innate magical power: it was so strong his body was unstable, so he shaved his head and wore a restraining device on it. The second one is just the container for the 108th Soul's magic power (held within the Crystal sphere).

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That said, there is a compelling theory about the 108th Soul's effects on a Dragoon Spirit. Of all the Dragoon forms, only Shana's form has a different accent color. It's blue-green, whereas Miranda's form is reddish-orange. So, Virage energies are probably seeping into the White Silver Dragoon Spirit and altering it.

In that situation the 108th Soul is not in a Wingly container, just a human vessel, so that may affect how "much" of the magical energy seeps through.

gleaming compass
jovial yew
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@gleaming compass I looked at the Dragon Campaign FMV again, to ensure Miranda and Shirley's Dragoon form have the same stone color and accent color. Seems to be the case!

However, I think there's something else to it that I haven't noticed yet. It seems that Shirley's torso armor is a direct match, aligning with both the concept art and Miranda's armor in-game.

image.png
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There are some differences, but the chest armor is the same asymmetric design.

gleaming compass
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I actually did notice that when I was going through my retextures. I still maintain that shanas colorations and the armor plating is a sign of virage corruption and I can no longer see her armor as being "white" anymore as opposed to browns and yellows. Which only vidicates me because WHY IS THE WHITE SILVER DRAGOON NOT THOSE COLORS!?

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....if you cant tell, I have residual feelings from working on her lol

jovial yew
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I looked into Shirley and Miranda because I didn't trust my memory in the moment, with regard to whether they had a consistent appearance.

spare lichen
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*brain starts sliding back to the old "true owners" theory"

west steeple
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Do we know anything about the Dark Elves? Or are they just part of the "just add some add enemies" list

torn quest
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Its been awhile since I have played but I have a few questions
How was Darts Dad unpetrified?
How come Melbu took so long to take control of him (even though they were merged already at this point?)
When Rose attacked Darts village as a kid how come his Dad never had conflict with her?

jovial yew
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The spell wore off, same with Divine Dragon's seal.

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Melbu took control instantly. The thing is, he was not activated until Zieg used his Dragoon Spirit to enter battle while Neet was under attack. The activation of the DS is what triggered Melbu's awakening. The takeover was instantaneous.

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It is most likely that Zieg transformed before entering the village. As such, Melbu would awaken in Zieg's body to a fiery hellscape in progress. Having only just woken up, he probably wouldn't chance an encounter with 0 knowledge of where he is or what he would be fighting, so retreat makes the most sense.

torn quest
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Makes sense.

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Thank you

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Something about the magic coursing through him probs reawakened melbu

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since winglys are more magical creatures

jovial yew
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It was specifically tied to the activation of the Red-Eye Dragoon Spirit. So yeah, Melbu probably imbued a "Listener" like in programming, and hijacked the proverbial startup sequence.

torn quest
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God I love this game fr

pallid igloo
torn quest
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maybe he tried to activate when he saw black monster

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dropped it

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and left

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lol

pallid igloo
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That's what I think happened, if he transformed outside Neet I don't see why Melbu would've then gone in

jovial yew
pallid igloo
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Neet's pretty small

jovial yew
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If Rose saw Zieg, she would have pursued him. Them not meeting is the only way the story works.

pallid igloo
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That I agree with, I think Melbu made it into the town but either didn't see the black monster or she didn't see him

jovial yew
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I'm not sure what you disagree with.

pallid igloo
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Transforming outside the village

jovial yew
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They couldn't have met, not clearly. At most, ZiegBu was only seen as a shadow or was hit by Rose's AoEs from afar.

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Well, it could be the edge of the village. But we also don't know if Rose was at the edge of the village during the moment Zieg arrived. I'm just saying contact would be borderline retcon.

pallid igloo
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Yes I'm not saying they met or even saw eachother

jovial yew
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to avoid contact we have to presume he transformed before getting close. Wherever Rose was within the central or outer village at that moment.

pallid igloo
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Ok here's what happened. Zieg goons outside Neet, Melbu takes over and fucks off. Claire finds the spirit, becomes a dragoon but can't control it: crashing into a burning building, reverts form and dies without Rose even seeing her

jovial yew
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Damn the era's limitations. We just hear the transformation SFX and a generic monster sound as Claire begins running back.

ionic frost
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maybe he didnt goon but was force gooned from the resonations

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aka dspirit resonated with rose and thats all melbu needed

pallid igloo
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Nothing worse than forced gooning

jovial yew
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force gooned? oh dear.

ionic frost
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5 icebergs later
the wingy magic/necklace was all melbu needed
roses 10k years of anguish / murder / chaos / fate blocking was the energy melbu was down for

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if moon child had been in neet
then also curious as to why that didnt trigger melbu
since winglies were using 108th powers to augment their own

jovial yew
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It's an interesting theory, but I think it can't track with what else we know. Firstly, if the spirits resonated, Rose would know. She would at least find the DS on the ground. Secondly, even after Dart picks up the DS, it is still dormant. I doubt a DS can "activate" and then go dormant again immediately. Third, Rose acts like the resonating moment in the forest with Dart and Feyrbrand is the first time she's felt the Red-Eye DS recently.

ionic frost
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rose was in murder rampage mode

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do we know roses mental state during anti goon mode

pallid igloo
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Angy

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Big sad

jovial yew
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Would you like to try discounting the other two points? šŸ™‚

ionic frost
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what does dormant mean

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just cause it resonates doesnt mean its playing cards of fate

pallid igloo
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It's when your roommate in college leaves food everywhere and the ants get in your dorm

jovial yew
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Dungeons N' Dragons long rest.

ionic frost
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third point is more to my point
that rose never detected the red dspirit in neet

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whether red was broadcasting or not

jovial yew
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Also, what do you mean re: moon child activating Melbu? He was tied to the DS. Nothing else would release his spiritual form. Secondly, the Crystal Sphere was destroyed in the final battle of Kadessa. There was no remaining harness on the 108th Fruit save for the Signets.

ionic frost
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Well is the d spirit a complete sealing of Melbu?

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Why would nothing else but activating into dragoon break Melbu free?

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Why can't Melbu wake up internally in the d spirit, then force goon Zieg, then take control

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So by activating Melbu I mean anything that can be felt, detected, or propagate into the d spirit.

Wingly magic seems unlikely. 108th energy can probably do it. Other dragoons or dragons seem plausible.

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What if Zieg couldn't goon because of Melbu being in there šŸ¤”
And Melbu couldn't release due to the d spirit.

And God of destruction rampage mode broke the balance!

jovial yew
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That is what we are told and shown in the game. Zieg could not use his Dragoon form during the Neet tragedy, because Melbu preserved himself in the DS without Zieg realizing it.

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It is not just a theory.

ionic frost
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oh i meant he couldnt goon the entire time he was de-stoned not just in that moment at neet

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darts step mother really had to show up and ruin the new fam

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homewrecker rose

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common law marriage *** counts

jovial yew
# ionic frost Well is the d spirit a complete sealing of Melbu?

Like any magic container a Wingly would create (i.e. DMOs), a Dragoon Spirit must contain a vast amount of rechargeable magical power (with the addition of a Dragon's remnant personality). Melbu must have determined or hoped there was room for him alongside the Dragon, and was successful. However, the devs provided virtually no details about it. šŸ„“

ionic frost
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yea i wished we got more on a few things

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are wingly magic and dmagic...how related are they or not at all

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chaos vs fate
is that fight going on in the dspirit or is it just chaos in there

jovial yew
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Which fight? Normal transform, or regarding Melbu?

ionic frost
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inside of the dspirit

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we are told that dragoons are fueled by chaos or madness

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so are they apart of fate, contain some fate
or are they just chaos and are one of the few things that can oppose fate

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SOA an alien engineer, a death cult that split fate and chaos, or why is his fate everyone elses fate

jovial yew
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Have you read the guidebook lore? It details the process and what happens when the wielder is not successful.

ionic frost
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nope

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dont they just die

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rose mentions that in hoax

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but survive couldve meant not descending into madness

jovial yew
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As for fate, it is unknown. There is the primary fate, whereby the Virage Embryo is born and resets the world unhindered. The right to stop the 108th Fruit is seen as the fight against fate. However, the guidebook says that Soa "may" be testing the other species. It is also possible that the real fate was the stopping of Virage all along.

ionic frost
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indeed

jovial yew
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You should read about Savage Dragoons. :)

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I am out of energy for now, but I can reply to one more of your questions.

jovial yew
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I'd love to say more but that requires being in touch with the architect of this wacky story. I do hope I can interview him some day..

ionic frost
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one day

jovial yew
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It would be close to a miracle. Then again I could say the same for the one we're getting already..

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I better not say too much.

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Anywho, sorry if my replies weren't fully helpful. Just trying to answer as best I can.

ionic frost
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the usual

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one simple question

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explosion on very nerdy deeper discussions that underpin the whole game

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great every time

sudden shellBOT
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Q: Ruff, do you agree?
A: Ruff has no idea, ruff.

jovial yew
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honest Ruff.

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I really need to write a scene exemplifying savage Dragoons for my prequel fanfic.

ionic frost
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yes

torn quest
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Iā€™ve been thinking about doing a prequel DND campaign set in the dragon campaign time

glacial whale
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Something I've wondered about it about the MC stuff. So Rose mentions the various powers of the MC but since Shana grew up not knowing she was one it might explain why she didn't have a cult around her like Rose said would happen. Shana was nerfing herself since she thought she was like everyone around her.

torn quest
glacial whale
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would be massively exploitable but could've been a neat mechanic if you have Shana in the party Virage just won't target her

torn quest
jovial yew
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However, it's still uncharted territory for the most part. The story only works if all the MC incarnations are killed right away, which Rose undoubtedly performed. There could have been a handful of instances where things went a bit awry or she didn't find the MC for a few days, but that'd be about it at most.

glacial whale
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thinking about MC stuff a little on the idea with Durt since there's no more Moon and Shana still possibly in possesion of the soul when she passes on. There's no signifier to warn of another MC

jovial yew
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Mhmm, it's left open-ended.

vivid tree
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Do we know how frahma posing as diaz knew that Shana was the moon child?

pallid igloo
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The gem they use in the opening cutscene

vivid tree
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Well yes, but how did they know to try it on her? Why attack Seles? I assume they werenā€™t testing every 18 year old from mille seseau

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Playing through again and it occured to me we donā€™t know how he knew Rose failed or how he came to suspect Shana

rapid grove
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Hmm, that's a tough one. I can't think of a perfectly tidy explanation, but here's the best I got.

Perhaps he assumed the Moon Child perished by Rose's hand, but then found out the secret that there were twins. Maybe he learned it through Zieg's memories, recalling the two infants passing through Neet, or maybe he had the same ability to read minds like Lloyd uses on Queen Theresa. In any case, assuming one had survived, there was a chance for the Moon Child to still be alive, which would allow him to enact his plan about 90ish years early so worth.

From there, it wouldn't be a large leap to assume the princess was passed off as an orphaned survivor of Neet as a convenient way to hide her identity, or learned as such from mind reading. Next would be to start looking into where the few survivors went. By that logic, Dart alone would have brought scrutiny to Seles. It helps that there were very few survivors, we only see as few as three in game iirc, two of which lived in the same town so there wouldn't be that many places to check.

vivid tree
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That checks out

compact tendon
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Thats what I always assumed, he's lucky Virages don't know human tongue otherwise that may have posed problems.

pallid igloo
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@jovial yew is there any written criteria for a wingly to have gold wings? We see that Faust has them, and the Archangel also has them

compact tendon
west steeple
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Do yall reckon Kongol just lives in Rouge permanently or he was just training there?

compact tendon
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Think he moved there, if hes among the last giants I'd for sure go somewhere I can belong.

west steeple
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Yeah I got the same vibe

gleaming compass
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I can see him wandering once hes done training too

west steeple
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If I were him I think Iā€™d wander too. Mainly to see if by some miracle, there were more Giganto no one knew about

glacial whale
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just been wondering about Lloyd's magical abilities was he born exceptional or was he constantly training and strenghtening his magic. Which brings up something is Wingly magic declining due to time or they just aren't using magic as much and that's why it's atrophying. It feels like the decline in power might be also attributed to their stagnation as a people.

jovial yew
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Lloyd's nature isn't covered by the story - in-game or in extra materials. He simply appears more powerful than some Winglies.

As for waning magic power, that's also a mystery. It could be several things. For example:

  • Soa could have set a timer on the world. In case something went wrong with the 108th Fruit, the other species would not have the magical power to leave the planet.
  • Faust may not be out of his mind. It's possible his confidence was based in reality, using Flanvel as a means to slowly siphon magic from the world. It would explain his phenomenal power in combat.

I doubt Winglies' loss of magical power would be due to "not using it" as you suggest. The waning magic is purportedly affecting the entire world. All species.

rapid grove
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I feel like an important question to figure out why magic declines is where does it come from in the first place. On this front I only recall 2 concrete mentions in LoD's lore. First the soul of the God of Destruction (from when Charle says Melbu drew magical power from the soul trapped in the crystal sphere,) and second the Dragoon Spirits (Lloyd literally refers to the Divine Dragon DS as "the soul of the Divine Dragon." That all said, it's doubtful that souls are the only source of magic, otherwise what are the crafting processes for making magical items like the clinic's healing light, the various attack items, or recovery potions? I doubt souls are involved in all of those things, so the source of magic itself likely has multiple answers.

The Crystal Palace's original function was to only allow babies with powerful magic to be born. At first I thought this meant physically, like their genetics determined their magical power, but it might actually refer to rejecting souls whose magical power is weak. If so, the magical decline of the world would be due to the souls no longer being filtered based on magical strength. Although I guess this does kinda open the question of "where do souls come from?" and "why do souls have varying magical power?" This also spawns the thought: if humans aren't supposed to have magical power, then why are there ghosts on the phantom ship? Are those not the souls of humans, persisting after death? If that's not magic, I don't know what is.

west steeple
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If they can control where souls go, maybe itā€™s hand picked reincarnation to a certain extent?

jovial yew
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I feel like an important question to figure out why magic declines is where does it come from in the first place.

@rapid grove You are absolutely correct about that. The problem is there's literally no information on, like, the ecology of the world. Parent-level details like that are so, so rare in LoD. Is magic universally the same concept for all species? If so, why chuck in Ki? It feels like it's just there as a real-world reference. It makes a mess for us. šŸ„“

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(to make it worse: most magic we see is combat-side, and combat/lore were not kept aligned. So just because any two species can use Spear Frost, that could just be gamedev convenience to fill out the ability kits. As seen with Greham/Doel/Lenus)

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sorry, had to make edits because brain is going 108 mph right now.

rapid grove
# west steeple If they can control where souls go, maybe itā€™s hand picked reincarnation to a ce...

No clue, the closest we get to even mentioning reincarnation is Rose talking about a legend in east, and that doesn't even fully suggest that souls come back to Endiness, just that they may find a place with light after the darkness. At best, all we know concretely is that souls come in, and souls go out, which really isn't much to go on lol. Everything else is too vague (definitely not helped by the translation being a bit jank) to really say much for certain.

vivid tree
jovial yew
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From the game script:

Diaz
The world ... where inertia
is considered to be peace, and the
easy path leads to devolution.
The overture to the destruction
has already begun.
Lloyd
"Devolution"....
You are saying that is the reason
why our magic power is
deteriorating?
Diaz
It is not only for you,
Winglies.
Diaz
It is the danger all
species are facing.

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Melbu could be spinning a fable just to convince Lloyd to work for him. However, it could also be a literal truth, or a veiled truth.

If the truth is literal, it suggests that magic gets stronger in the world when there's more conflict. More peace, less magic.

If the truth is veiled, then what determines magical potency in the world is unknown.

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There's also the aspect of the literal population. Dragons used to be in large number, and now only a handful remain. Same with Winglies. Life, in general, nearly went extinct by the end of the Dragon Campaign. Vanishingly few humans and Winglies survived, and many other species were wiped out. However, this note about devolution seems positioned as a new danger, not something that happened nearly 12,000 years ago.

ionic frost
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All apart of Soa's Plan

torn quest
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could be like a concentration thing as well. That as life is reduced the concentration per being is raised. That with the current world being abundant in life has spread mana a bit thin. Hence why during times of war things got more concentrated because they were essentially robbing any "lesser beings" of mana.

Purely speculation though. No lore for that I dont think

jovial yew
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That wouldn't account for Winglies being at the height of their power while many other creatures and species were still alive.

torn quest
jovial yew
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Unfortunately I'd have to doubt it. Life was abundant before Winglies subjugated many species, and they still had peak power. Conversely, once the Dragon Campaign was concluded, why didn't the few remaining beings receive a major boost to magic since there were so few people to distribute it between?

torn quest
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Theories a bust

jovial yew
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I don't like to tell people "no" but there's just no evidence to support the theory. Cool as it could be in a vacuum.

torn quest
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Could be that Soas plan has be thwarted too long

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and life was never meant to last this long

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so its degrading or something

jovial yew
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Yeah, that's the timer aspect I mentioned as well.

torn quest
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Heat death of universe kinda thing but for magic

jovial yew
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.. Not that it would necessarily be a concept with integrity, as Winglies could already do dimensional shit and levitate massive organic objects in the sky 11,682 years ago. However, if magic has a timer, then it could prevent Winglies or other species from going off-world. Outside the "experiment" if you will.

torn quest
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Soa really just fucking around.

jovial yew
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but I am not fond of my own theory for that reason. Soa's org spans spacetime. Tens of millions of places. If Winglies can hop dimensions, that kinda suggests they might find the other experiments, or learn about the org itself. They could end up wanting that power, that control. Those spaces to rule over, either moderately or abusively.

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Maybe it was a "doesn't matter" thing and Soa could just snap his fingers to disable their magic power, a-la Q from Star Trek. But that's a whole what-if rabbit hole.

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Which means I have to fall back to my other theory: Faust was siphoning it.

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he's on the board, he has "plans," and it's taking forever.. he's full of magic power in combat.

torn quest
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True could be Faust for sure

jovial yew
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need more theories, Alex.

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like a whole Jeopardy board of them.

west steeple
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What if the embryo was developing and the seals were made to siphon the worlds magic if needed in order to continue containment

torn quest
gleaming compass
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As much I like the faust theory, I also just have to wonder if magic as a whole just has a lifespan, or if its a secondary effect of Soas plans. Like the more the moon child was killed, the further from Soas divine influence the world became, the less magic aligned with the world itself.

west steeple
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What if the divine tree was the source of magic? (It has 7 main branches right?) maybe it is getting weaker since itā€™s way older than Intended

compact tendon
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Eh I always thought it was Faust's machine that fumbled it up plus a generational decline in pure winglies for their decline in magic capabilities

gleaming compass
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After thinkin about it some more, I think it does have to come back to Faust. If magic had a lifespan, it would mean that if it were declining then it would apply to all wielders of it, weakening even faust, melbu, lloyd, etc. Same would apply for the divine tree.

So either Faust is siphoning it off, OR, after 11,000 years of no dragoons / wingly near decimation, life itself just evolved in a way where it lost affinity for using it.

jovial yew
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it would mean that if it were declining then it would apply to all wielders of it, weakening even faust, melbu, lloyd, etc. Same would apply for the divine tree.

Well, to me, this is still quite possible. The "rate" is probably very slow, hence it's been almost 12,000 years. Lloyd wouldn't perceive a loss in his short life of 53 human years. However, Blano being 600+ might have some perception of it. Even moreso, the immortal Ularans. Not that they ever tell us/Dart.

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Melbu is a weird case because he was preserved in a magic container of sorts, and in a very unorthodox way (not a standard Wingly magic container, i.e. the DMOs).

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Still, Faust is my best guess for now. I kinda like the "lost affinity" thing but I will admit it does not pique my interest as much.

compact tendon
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As attain to most worlds, magic wack yo

west steeple
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So what is the natural life span of the Winglies? Excluding magic used to extend it

jovial yew
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During the era of the Dragon Campaign, it was 1,000 years. The exact lifespan varied for each person.

west steeple
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Hmm, i guess that doesnt really help with the maturity thing

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wait so i guess magic level determines their lifespan. sorry if yall knew that already lol

jovial yew
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Yeah, magic is the only listed factor. There may be other factors like "oops this organ is gonna crap out early" but even the magic thing is pretty vague to begin with.

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Consider that personal immortality is mega difficult to obtain, to the point even Melbu couldn't acquire it (despite two restraining devices). Yet, a small group of Winglies can build an immortality field around an entire city. Maybe it's a bit inconsistent. šŸ¤·šŸ»

west steeple
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The fact that he seemingly never removes the devices leads me to believe they were actually magic amplifiers and hes magically stunted lol. But yeah the writing is all over the place

jovial yew
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You can fanfic that, but canon-wise it's not the case. His magic was too strong, so it had to be restrained to keep his body stable.

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The second limiter wasn't directly for him (the 108th Soul's magic), but he was still using it.

west steeple
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Oh I guess thatā€™s fair too

jovial yew
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For stunted magic, see Younger Bardel. šŸ˜†

west steeple
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Gosh both of them suck tbh lol

jovial yew
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BIg Vegeta vibes. Pride, power, and relevance.

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not to mention the hair.

glacial whale
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don't think it's ever openly stated how old Meru is but I think we can extrapolate is in her 40's or 50's at the very least

jovial yew
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I did that math a long time ago. If all Winglies age at the same rate, she's close to 30. However, that's based on a sample size of 1 (Lloyd appears 28 but is 53). Second, Wingly and humans age differently, so she's still very much a "teen" by human standards. If we measure Meru in human years, it'd make as much sense as measuring a human in Wingly years.

tired orbit
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Do we know when Rose and Charle made contact?

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Like at what point in the war

jovial yew
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It's never mentioned in any material. It would most likely be near the end of the war, or soon after. Urgent meeting about consequences relating to the Crystal Sphere.

west steeple
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Lots of room for fan fic. I think witnessing Damiaā€™s death wouldā€™ve been an interesting motivation to switch sides but thatā€™s extremely head cannon lol

jovial yew
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For who to switch sides?

west steeple
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Oh sorry, I meant like Charle witnessing Damia die couldā€™ve inspired her to more aggressively oppose her brother. Switching sides isnā€™t really the right phrasing Iā€™m realizing since she was opposing him

compact tendon
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Two words Wingly Bowling

west steeple
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Basketball/vollyball too please (put those wings to use lol)

jovial yew
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This is turning into a second mood request thread haha.

pallid igloo
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I request a good mood

jovial yew
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Here is the good moon you asked for.

west steeple
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Whatā€™s with the last area on the moon anyway? Is the Moon That Never Sets a spaceship or something?

oblique lake
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moon's made of televisions

west steeple
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I knew it

jovial yew
west steeple
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Thatā€™s so weird they did all that and didnā€™t elaborate lol

jovial yew
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Maybe. I think it makes sense to not be told, given how much was crammed into the game.

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item magic isn't explained, along with many other things, when it comes to lore reasoning.

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Just "here it is, infinite supply, all merchants sell it for dirt cheap, and it nukes harder than the strongest Dragons."

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but "humans can't use magic"

west steeple
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Thatā€™s true

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The magic thing is interesting too, especially since they have those healing areas that get rid of status effects

jovial yew
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That's the thing I'd definitely change in a "bolder" remake. Remove all magic stats from human characters.

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at minimum, there's no lore justification for Lavitz to do less damage with item magic than Dart.

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whoever chucks it, same damage. At the very least.

west steeple
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Yeah I can see that

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You ever watch owl house? Maybe humans technically canā€™t but after years of studying, old wizards can enchant items and they sell them to merchants

jovial yew
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I dunno what that is.

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Whatever the explanation it'd be interesting. Whether humans got it into circulation themselves as a general harvesting method... or maybe there's "one" source from a specific object / location. Maybe a rogue group of Winglies handing it over to humans?

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Whatever the case, technically it could answer why magic is waning in the world. It's being packaged for sale like oil in real life, capitalism style.

west steeple
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(The Owl House was a Disney XD animated show)
Oh I like that idea, especially the Wingly part

jovial yew
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double cursed option incoming

oblique lake
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Would fit in with Kazas a little bit

jovial yew
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What if Faust is siphoning all magic from the world... but a busted conduit is leaking all the magic power into human lands? That'd be pretty embarrassing.

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just coming up through the ice, near Deningrad...

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no wonder the Peddler Bros. set up shop just above the buried tower.

oblique lake
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oh that's hilarious

west steeple
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I could see that

pallid igloo
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Magic chemtrails

west steeple
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What do yall think they ate on their travels? Like what are they roasting over fire?

static quarry
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fish

static quarry
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ink definitely eats jellyfish

jovial yew
west steeple
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Thatā€™s it, Iā€™m turning Coolon around!

pale vine
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I figured I'd chime on with the "Faust siphoning magic" topic: I like this idea too. In my recent (a year or so ago now) Dragoon themed Dungeons & Dragons campaign, I kind of toyed with the idea that, since I'm pretty sure Faust didn't much like Melbu to begin with, that he was doing backup plans and building systems for the hoarding of magic power. Basically, to prolong his own life (through the use of a clone/body doubling program or something). But now I'm in fanfic territory, so I'll stop.

oak matrix
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This is probably embarrassing to admit, but until my recent playthrough I never really understood the basic setup of the story. If it's OK, I wanted to write down what I understand thus far (I've never beaten LoD but I know the basic gist of the overarching plot)

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||Dart is returning to Seles on the Serdio continent after a long journey to find the Black Monster, which burned down his original hometown of Neet, on the Mille Seseau continent. Shana, his childhood friend, was kidnapped at the behest of Emperor Doel, who is following the counsel of Lloyd, who is apparently employing the will of Emperor Diaz from the Dragon Campaign 11000 years past.

Dart rushes to save Shana, and along the way he is attacked by a Dragon of legend, also from the Dragon Campaign, and meets Rose'. As he busts Shana out of prison, the two meet Lavitz, a knight of Basil. They find out that Doel has thrust North and South Serdio into a civil war from King Albert, and the two of them agree to join North Serdio's side as mercenaries.|| The last sentence here is a part I really didn't understand as a kid. It's really obvious as an adult.

||This leads to Dart meeting Rose' again and unlocking his Dragoon powers. She joins the group, they find evidence of Doel using Dragoons to conquer Serdio, and Lavitz and Shana both become Dragoons themselves during the journey. At this point we discover Doel has taken Albert hostage at the very same place as this began, and Lavitz sacrifices himself for Albert. This illustrates the impartiality of the Dragoon Spirits, and serves as an example of their capability to "hop through users" to wind up where they were trying to actually go. For a lack of better phrasing.|| I'll have to go thru what I understand of Disc 2 in a bit, my partner needs me

jovial yew
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You seem to understand most of it. A few corrections:

Feyrbrand is not confirmed to be alive for the Dragon Campaign. We know nothing about Dragon life expectancy or when Feyrbrand was born.

Dart and company may seem like mercenaries but they were never paid for assisting Basil. When taking Popo's quiz, Dart is clear that it's not about which side wins. It's about restoring peace.

oblique lake
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Lavitz is also a knight already

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he probably does get paid

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I also don't think the dragoon spirit is necessarily hopping from one host to another because it Knows who needs to wield it, throughout the game there are some moments where they jump but it's less "to get where it's going" and more "this one seems more worthy of my power"

jovial yew
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It's usually from death, not because they found someone better.

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Disc 3/4 spoilers || Shana to Miranda is an exception, but that's a unique circumstance. Dart to Zieg - also a unique situation. ||

oblique lake
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that's what I was thinking of, yeah

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either way, the dragoon spirits aren't aiming for a specific person

oblique lake
jovial yew
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Ah, good point. I will wrap that part in spoilers.

oak matrix
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Yeah, I didn't necessarily think Dart and Shana were arms for hire but didn't really know how else to phrase it in this context

oak matrix
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Disc 2 and part of Disc 3

||So, as far as I'm aware, the Divine Dragon on disc 3 awakens in response to (at least 6 of) the 7 Dragoon Spirits having been gathered together as a unit. Lloyd's entire scheme seems to be to get the Dragoons to defeat the Divine Dragon so he can collect the Divine Dragoon Spirit. This was probably orchestrated by him to get the squad to meet Meru and get the Blue Dragoon Spirit. He would also easily get the Moon Dagger in the confusion. The rest of the story on Disc 2 largely seems to be world and character building. Rose's feelings for Dart and her past, Dart's destiny and his feelings for Shana, Shana being Princess Louvia's twin and the Moon Child, development on Meru and Haschel's respective stories, Albert being a nerd, the Moon that Never Sets, etc.||

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That pretty much catches you all up to where I am on my most recent attempt at beating the game, except I finally think I realize why ||the Silver Dragoon Spirit leaves Shana. Not only is she reacting to the old Wingly Signet, but she probably wasn't strong enough to withstand the aura of the Divine Dragon as it awoke and severed its chains||

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I've also observed the overlap between the religions and history of the three different continents, I'm pretty fascinated but I'm not sure how it fits in. I have 0 idea about what happens on Disc 4 other than the 3 cities and the Moon

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I've never made it to Mayfil

jovial yew
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Chapter 3 clarifications:

  • The Divine Dragon definitely has an effect on Dart, so it's possible it can detect the Dragoon Spirits. However, the Divine Dragon wakes and breaks free because the Wingly seal on it has finally faded after thousands of years. Perfect timing, aka fate.
  • Lloyd knew that Dragons can produce Dragoon Spirits, but he did not need or care for the DS. As he remarks, it is just a trophy for him.
  • The Moon Dagger plot and Meru's involvement take place in Chapter 2, not 3. You might be trying to refer to the Moon Mirror, which does get stolen by Lloyd in chapter 3.
  • Shana is not Princess Louvia - they are two separate people. Louvia is her twin sister, who was murdered shortly after birth.
oak matrix
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Ahh OK

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Thanks for clarifying

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So... What is the overall point of disc 2 other than to waste the Dragoons' time?

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Wait no derp

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Lloyd used us and Lenus to make getting the Moon Dagger easier

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That is a classic case of me overthinking

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Disc 1 sets up the concept, Disc 2 deepens the world and characters. Lloyd is secondary to that goal, which is fine because without the depth we wouldn't love this game so much

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"the rest of the story here" should have been phrased as "the rest of the disc 2 story"

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So Lloyd basically just took the Divine DS so you can't have it

oblique lake
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Deningrad was formerly a wingly city if I recall, I think that was more of a grudge than a challenge to the dragoons

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the seal was there I'm p sure altho it's been a hot minute for me

jovial yew
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No, that was anger at the Winglies for imprisoning them.

oak matrix
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That makes way more sense

oak matrix
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Thanks for helping me out. I have a much greater sense of the story now

jovial yew
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You're welcome. It's easy to get the facts mixed up - just a process of learning what all took place.

tired orbit
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I think itā€™s weird that the dragon block staff nerfs the whole field when in use. Like it makes sense for the Grand Jewel fight to use it against the dragoons but in the DD fight the narrative was that the dragoons are here to save the day! But you get obliterated if you use dragoons during that fight. Unless for one turn of course.

oblique lake
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I mean, it makes sense for what the item does!

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It blocks dragons

tired orbit
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Wait a minute

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The Dragon Block Staffā€¦ was it helping with the maintaining of the seal on the DD or was it just used to help seal him a long time ago? Or neither?

If itā€™s the 2nd option then it should be target specific or directional considering we can use dragoons in the forbidden land despite being closer to it than the DD

oblique lake
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So like, afaik it was created by the winglies to weaken dragons and dragoons
to me, from that alone, it makes sense that it's not directional. they wouldn't want the humans to have any advantage after all!
if I had to guess why dragoons are fine in the Forbidden Land, I'd say the artifact just wasn't in use, since it was being guarded by the Grand Jewel since the city's fall, but maybe someone has more info

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The DD I'm sure was a total menace but the creation dates of the buster and block staff afaik line up with the war too

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the staff itself may have weakened over time too - it does shatter after it goes into effect

jovial yew
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For your other comment, the DBS is in fact the seal that kept the Divine Dragon imprisoned for over 10,000 years. It apparently started running out of juice, which explains why it shattered after Dart used it just one time. It was running on fumes, so to speak.

oak matrix
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im rewriting the synopsis of what i've played thus far, with y'alls corrections, for my own sake (i won't repost it, don't worry lol). i just realized as a kid, i thought shana collapsed when the dragoon spirit left her b/c it was keeping her alive and w/o it, the poison came back and she was dying

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god i dont mean to be too rude, i know lod is beloved, but the official localization is borderline incomprehensible to me. breath of fire ii has nothing on this game's translation

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i understood chrono cross at age 10 so its not like i can just blame being an idiot child either

rapid grove
# oak matrix god i dont mean to be too rude, i know lod is beloved, but the official localiza...

Yeah the translation leaves much to be desired as most subtext for phrasing is pretty much ignored and leaves a lot of leg work to the player to recontextualize it. One resource that would probably help you tremendously are the scripts which contain all dialogue in the game per disc: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1hnWFvIC9F5h4qA2C08LaSzsuDK4MIrmV?usp=sharing
Very quick to just search for key terms and also catches all different npc dialogues once story events take place which would be quite the hassle to hunt down in a regular playthrough.

The JP guidebook also has insights from the devs which would otherwise be impossible to interpret from the game, whether due to localization or that the niche trivia wasn't felt necessary to include in game (I could also easily see extended lore being a literal selling point of the guidebook)

tired orbit
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So a dragooon isnā€™t an actual dragon spirit right? Otherwise we wouldnā€™t be able to fight DD in Mayfil. What is it then?

jovial yew
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There is no official answer. You'll have to speculate.

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The Japanese Guidebook says that when someone transforms into a Dragoon, there is a battle of wills to determine who controls the Dragoon form. At least some amount of the Dragon's personality remains - whether it's their full consciousness or a mere imprint is unknown.

We know virtually nothing about the science of restless souls who can't fully move on. Your best option is to write fanfic to explore multiple options.

oak matrix