#📜Lore

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gleaming compass
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that checks out

harsh jolt
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so...The Moon That Never Sets blew up, right? The Virage Embryo's body only exists as rubble now.

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And Shana is both alive and 18. What happens in 90 years?

echo cedar
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|| Aliens invade. Technology grows leaps and bounds. The new dragoons dont summon the spirit of dragons when they are called to war, but fighter jets. It's remarkable.|| Always fun to speculate.

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|| Well, fighter jets, a tank and a warship. Water Dragoon ftw.||

echo cedar
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(In seriousness, I suspect "nothing out of the ordinary". Just continuous growth or decline from here on out without the threat of a metaphorical reset button unless that reset button is somehow reintroduced via human idiocy or Soa returning with a vengence.

I like to imagine that Soa has been fully checked out for eons though.)

harsh jolt
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I just mean that the body of the 108th species is destroyed but the spirit is still...a thing

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Will it still reincarnate after Shana dies?

jovial yew
# harsh jolt And Shana is both alive and 18. What happens in 90 years?

It's totally unknown. This is because, when Melbu interrupts the transfer of the 108th Soul, it's unclear what happens to the Soul. Was it half-transferred and thus broken/killed? Was none of it transferred - and if so, would it continue its mission some other way or be like a machine that can't fulfill its progamming?

echo cedar
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Ooh. You know what would be neat? If the spirit survived (I like to think it died. End of story. Good tales must have an end and all.) and has slowly turned to infecting the world. Corrupted land / wildlife and whatnot. A different take on stagnation.

jovial yew
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Plenty of options like that! In this case, I could see the MC slowly converting everyone regardless of the 108th Flesh being destroyed. COnsider that the world of people are all looking for relief and peace. Serdians, Tiberoans, Winglies, et cetera. This would probably make them extra prone to MC's evangelism. Then.. it's a happy world under Queen Shana? An unknowing, mostly-fine cult.

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It's mega interesting to follow this thread, IMO. Why? Well, unless I misunderstand the lore, the MC can't respawn any more. Shana would be the last. So then.. after she dies, the world plunges back into its usual ups and downs? Unless Shana convinces the Winglies to give her immortality.. but hey, maybe Rose's choker is intact in the water where the Divine Tree once stood.

spare lichen
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If the spirit is still around then it could still be highly dangerous. Shana uses the same spell that melbu tries to use on weight to destroy urubolus. And that was independent of any virage influences so she's still a danger even without the GoD body

ionic frost
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i like the theming above, cliff notes of a sequel

  • 10 800 years later
  • 108th spirit became inherited and spread out across Shana's descendants
  • 108th spirit corrupts these individuals and tries to bend them to its original design: destroy the world
    • Some more than others, some resist...
  • Young Durt has discovered an odd power and a weird inner call guiding him along a journey w/ other companions
  • These pesky Dragoon Spirits haunt Durt (and all of those hearing this inner call)
  • Act 3 TWIST: Does human will persevere over the stakes of fate set by the Dragoon Spirits and the 108th?
  • ...and whats that knocking noise on reality...someone waiting to receive the destroyed world...😱
echo cedar
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(Awesome ideas - especially with a proliferated spirit. And extra kudos for the protagonist being called Durt.)

crude quarry
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Is there information anywhere on how Shana got adopted by the mayor of Seles? I forget if the reuniting scene between her and them if you re-visit mentions anything

jovial yew
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We only have select pieces of that puzzle. Long story short, when Theresa had twins, it was a bad omen in Mille Seseau. The midwives took Shana away in secret, and Theresa never was told she had a second child. The next confirmation we have is that Shana grew up in Seles, so there is a large gap of intel.

crude quarry
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that's about what I figured, but it's been so long since I've seen certain in-game conversations I wasn't sure if I was forgetting something or if it was just not mentioned

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Dart also sort of teleports quite a way to get to Seles from his initial hometown, but since he was a (relatively older) child him wandering, getting caught up with some group or another, and eventually ending up there wouldn't be too far-fetched

jovial yew
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That part is from the Japanese Guidebook. In terms of the in-game optional scenes, it's pretty basic stuff. One scene has a reunion, and the parents are happy to see Shana. Later, they ask about Shana's whereabouts but Dart hides the truth. Very little happens in these scenes unfortunately.

crude quarry
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Unfortunate, and yeah I was going off the guidebook translation

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very useful stuff in there

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been passing that information along to others

jovial yew
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Although Dart shows up in Neet the next morning after the attack, it's possible he wandered south and ran into the midwives before they continued on. Else some nameless other character would also randomly take him to Seles? Either way we're forced to speculate.

crude quarry
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guidebook does a good job at least explaining Lenus' motivation beyond love in disc 2 since it also points out that unlike all the other Winglies Lloyd didn't discriminate against her, so it lends a tragic lens to her fate

spare lichen
crude quarry
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hypothetically she could have passed out

spare lichen
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fair

jovial yew
crude quarry
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I wonder if in-universe the characters would all piece together Shana's actual ancestry at some point

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post-game

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since she is actually a princess it's sort of a big deal

spare lichen
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yeah she's technically the heir to the throne of deningrad

crude quarry
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Shana, to Miranda: You took my Dragoon Spirit, now I take your throne.

jovial yew
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if only she inherited the.. blue hair? Teal?

crude quarry
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I do have to wonder what's the deal with Shana's father

spare lichen
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thar eaises the question of who the queen's husband/ consort was

crude quarry
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don't remember there being a king

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same wavelength lol

spare lichen
jovial yew
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He does not exist!?

spare lichen
crude quarry
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The animations were great for their time, but some of them are kind of funny now

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as for the voice acting...hahaha

vivid tree
worn wasp
worn wasp
vivid tree
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Ok here's a Lore thing I've wondered about for a while:

When I was a kid playing this game, as it was my first RPG, I just accepted without question that when people died, their bodies vanished in a flash of light. However, as an adult, it poses an interesting question.

From a Doylist perspective (the one I accepted easily as a kid), perhaps they didn't want to show dead bodies lying around? But in the game there are plenty of times where we see dead bodies. So it can't be that. Maybe the developers wanted the ✨pizzazz✨? Who could say.

The Watsonian perspective is what is intriguing, here. It seems, in world, for some reason bodies disappear when they die. But not always! Some of them just blink out of existence (Hellena wardens) and some of them glow white first and then disappear (Greham). Some of them just lie there, a corpse, as they would in our world (the knights at the fort).

Any fun thoughts or theories as to why this might happen?

pallid igloo
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IIRC Greham's body doesn't disappear, the flash is his dragoon spirit moving to Lavitz. Hellena guards and other npc models flashing away is likely a model count/resource thing more than anything else

jovial yew
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Yeah, the Dragoon deaths involve the DS absorbing/dispersing the wielder's body for some reason. Maybe their spirit lingers in the DS, meaning each DS carries the spirits of former wielders? It would remind me of The 100, where the Commanders' spirits or personalities are preserved even after they die.

vivid tree
pallid igloo
vivid tree
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I feel like he does

jovial yew
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As for random wardens being killed in the in-engine cutscenes, that's just for resource savings or keeping the scene clear for the next action. This is done in various ways in games, like weapon scarring decals being temporary to save on pc performance.

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Greham disappears, along with Doel and Lenus.

pallid igloo
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Hm. But Lavitz didn't

gleaming compass
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not lavitz though for some - ah, ninja'd

pallid igloo
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😎

vivid tree
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And Lloyd does disappear.

pallid igloo
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Lloyd wasn't a dragoon

vivid tree
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Yeah exactly, he's an outlier

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Of course I like to think he didn't die #LloydLives

pallid igloo
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I dunno how durable Winglies are but I don't think they survive chest holes

vivid tree
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Shhhhhhhh

pallid igloo
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||Bro got the exact thing he gave Lavitz thrown back at him||

vivid tree
vivid tree
jovial yew
# pallid igloo Hm. But Lavitz didn't

Maybe the DS needs to absorb the heart and/or brain to preserve their spirit (if that even happens. Just my headcanon). If so, well.. Lloyd probably damaged Lavitz' heart with that stab. Or very close to the heart.

pallid igloo
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Bon Jovi plays in the background

crude quarry
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I kept a look out for it when they passed this playthrough

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Greham's death is the one where the body "disappears", but given that we also see Greham as a random hunter in disc 3 I think some things can be chalked up to limitations of the game devs (them not rendering his model in that scene, later re-using his model, etc)

jovial yew
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I must have misremembered Lenus, but I already regarded Lavitz as a possible exception due to the specific wound and a headcanon theory.

crude quarry
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yeah I thought I remembered it differently too, but because of that I kept a close eye on it for both of them this time around

vivid tree
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Thanks for looking! The resource limitations make a lot of sense for why models would disappear on death, but it does result in a fun thought exercise through a Watsonian lens

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Like in world perhaps we could imagine dead bodies don't disappear and we only see them disappear to preserve RAM (or what have you). Maybe we're meant to imagine that they behave as dead bodies normally do. BUT in that case why make some deaths act differently? Maybe for the emotional hit of seeing the dead body, like in lavitz's case? It would make sense.

But then of course we come back to the deaths that seem to not fit either, like Greham and Lloyd. Why make them glow and disappear? Why not leave the body?

Seeing Greham mysteriously alive in chapter 3 is definitely lending credence to my hashtag Lloyd Lives theory also 😏

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Either way thanks for indulging me, can you tell I think about this a lot? Lol

echo cedar
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So now you must tell me what do you think Lloyd would be up to if he really did survive the game?

crude quarry
jovial yew
crude quarry
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Yeah and the archer from the Hero Competition also has his model re-used there

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It could have been nice if it was Gorgaga and him again

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some continuity and have them both try and one-up you after losing at the Hero competition

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but them being different does make it so the world feels bigger

jovial yew
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I get that, I just rather it be different people.

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I think it could be a mix, but it'd feel more organic if it doesn't include every single participant Dart faced before. Maybe 1-2 of them, plus a bunch of new faces. And Bulgus needs his own body.

vivid tree
jovial yew
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Indeed

crude quarry
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Do we know what the spirit Dart recognizes in the midpoint room of Mayfil when you are crossing the invisible platform and enter a room that shines?

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He says it's familiar and that he has to stop his dad, but it doesn't linger on it much and doesn't say whose spirit healed you

jovial yew
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It's his mother.

crude quarry
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That was my guess

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Just kind of wish Haschel was shown for a moment in that scene

jovial yew
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Same. It was a chance for them to bond.

crude quarry
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Could have been a nice moment to tie up his character arc

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Lavitz says during his fight that he is possessed by "Menon"

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Is that perhaps an error since I don't recall something called Menon

jovial yew
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It's not a mistake, that's the name of the demon.

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Menon is a subordinate under Zackwell.

crude quarry
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Odd that the game seems to treat the possession as Zackwell since he only appears from Lavitz's body when you damage the thing on his back

jovial yew
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It needs some work, yes.

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Probably cut down for time/budget.

compact tendon
west steeple
pallid igloo
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He's in the Hero Competition

jovial yew
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Your Bulgus is showing.

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There's an opportunity for some deep lore here, actually.

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What if Bulgus entered the tournament by stealing Gorgaga's clothes, and that's why he cheated with poison?

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This infuriated the real Gorgaga, who is an "honest man."

west steeple
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Kongo is no longer my fav

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I’m down for a rivalry backstory

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It’d be kinda funny if they were twins too

jovial yew
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"Jealous twin Bulgus steals his brother's clothes, fucks up a chance at glory in the Hero Competition. Continued on page 3..."

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"Bulgus then ran off... with his brother's armor and weapon. Now Gorgaga cries daily in the local tavern, where Danton tries to comfort him with good spirits."

pallid igloo
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AU where instead of Guftas and Rodriguez, Fruegel has Bulgus and Gorgaga

jovial yew
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"Gorgaga finds renewed independence, and accepts training from Danton. He masters the sledgehammer, and hopes that one day it will connect with the face of his brother."

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THAT'S A GREAT IDEA!?!! aYaaaaa

west steeple
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Only if I get to be fruegel

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We should have a short story contest for stuff like this lolol

jovial yew
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We should, but virtually no writers came forward in the past. Should we try again? Gauge interest?

pallid igloo
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Maybe at least pitch it in some capacity

jovial yew
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How's my form?

west steeple
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That’s fair. It’s the same with the art contest 😞

jovial yew
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There are ||redacted|| plans in the works. 👀

spare lichen
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I'd love to write LoD fanfiction but I have no writing chops

jovial yew
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I have no formal writing experience, but I am now writing a book! Hopefully you can work your way toward the proficiency you're hoping to have. All I can say is.. daily practice.

west steeple
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Also it’s fanfiction… do it for the joy of it!

jovial yew
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even if it doesn't read the way you'd like.. having anything written down can be liberating and cathartic.

gleaming compass
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especially if youve written the words liberating and cathartic

jovial yew
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manifesting, right?

crude quarry
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yeah, I just spent an hour writing some stuff for a story and it was nice

echo cedar
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(If not a story contest, I am always down for writing prompts. Drabbles ftw.)

gleaming compass
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same

spark crystal
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Hi, out of curiosity do youns have or know of any videos or podcasts, discussing the lore and theories? 🙂

jovial yew
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We have an in-house podcast covering a range of topics, including lore. More episodes are coming! There are assorted videos on Youtube - search "legend of dragoon lore".

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most lore discussion is in text form, just to help temper your expectations. 99% of the lore and theory talk happens here in the server: either in this channel, the legacy #🧚🏻lore channel, #🐲legend-of-dragoon , et cetera.

spark crystal
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Right on, I'll checkout the podcast, thanks Drew.

jovial yew
spark crystal
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Hi Zonryu, I saw you mention not having writing chops, if you are wanting to write I suggest making a list in whatever format you prefer of all major events and then the connecting outcomes. From there you can extrapolate with simple cause and effect. Once you have the major points and a decent idea of a straight-forward easy way for example Jane goes to the store-Jane gets to the store, the extrapolation being how did she get to the store, after you have a basic rough draft you can do some fine tuning, jane went to start her car but the battery was dead or she was out of gas so she ran until (she) was out of gas lol. Personally, I think for storytelling Kants Noumena, and phenomena should always be kept in mind

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I apologize for the long text on that, the thought of new lod stories is pretty exciting for me hehe

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Oh and never the - and then, rather use the -but, therefore rule when writing

astral pawn
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Is there a scan of the Japanese lore source, like the guidebook? All I have is the USA strategy guide XD. And it seems that there really isn’t a great complete source of lore online, parts are incomplete. I’m making a d&d campaign of the story.

Also, if there are ways to update the lore, to make it current, I’d love to help!

jovial yew
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I'll take the help! We have it compiled in the community resource archive, at this time. We can chat at your convenience.

astral pawn
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Absolutely! I’m really a lore nerd at heart. And the more I can flesh out about the story the better. I had just found some wikis on the game but some pages have more than others.

jovial yew
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Something just popped into my fron (head). There have been many posts that talk about what the "criteria" are to be chosen by a Dragoon Spirit. Whether it's a particular conviction, a sentiment for a certain species, or something else.

While thinking about a mod that expands Shirley's boss fight to include combat testing, I realized more consciously that the whole point of the battle as-is tests the party in exactly the way we've been collectively asking each other for over two decades. Mother or Lordship? Prioritize Shana or the Black Monster?

This doesn't necessarily account for the motivations and priorities of Greham or Lenus. Plus, we know Dragoon Spirits don't make a clear-cut "good or evil" distinction. However, I think Shirley's fight exemplifies this mystery to some degree. What are your motivations, and at the end of the day why are you pursuing this-or-that?

west steeple
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It would be interesting to figure out each dragoon’s motivations to see why they were chosen

pallid igloo
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Blue dragoon doesn't pick pure blooded humans

jovial yew
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Well, the story writing seems intentional enough, as it isn't easily narrowed down. A Dragon can have multiple things it "aligns" with, after all. Unless it's the Jade Dragon.. that one really likes spear wielders.

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the trouble for me is.. the Shirley fight seems to show that a Dragoon Spirit cares about pure or impure motivation. A sense of good and evil. The rest of the game seems to indicate it's more nuanced than that.

west steeple
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I low key don’t like how the newer dragoons have the same weapons as the old lol

jovial yew
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If there's some overlap that's fine, but it kinda bothered me that there's zero variation in Jade weapons. Maybe it really does love Spears lmao, but.. yeah. Doel and Lenus gave great variety. It worked. It was believable.

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I still suspect it was partly due to time/scope constraints.

west steeple
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Yeah totally

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I feel like if the characters had a different weapon than the dragoon spirit, it’d kinda justify how they all had the same weapon as dragoons

jovial yew
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What do you mean?

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Dragoon Spirits don't have a base weapon, according to the lore given.

west steeple
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But if they did, like the jade dragoon always had a spear (idk because the dragon had spear like arms) while lavtiz Albert and greham used different weapons until they transform into dragoons

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Although I don’t mind Albert and lavitz sharing a weapon since they were friends

jovial yew
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It's interesting. I'd feel compelled to put their proficiency at 0 for the new weapon type, but it'd add some variety. As with many games where characters use an array of weapons instead of just one.

west steeple
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Yeah I guess once someone adds the extra weapon mods my nitpick will be irrelevant anyway

jovial yew
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Ever since the Mininto Dragoon artwork by Beldolor, I've been salivating for that character with dual kamas.

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any new weapon and/or character will be an exciting opportunity to crack LoD wide open.

west steeple
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Giving lenus’s weapons to Meru would be fun too

jovial yew
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Okay now it's heresy.

west steeple
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Lolol what about Shana with Haschels fists

worn wasp
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I love chakrams

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Also Doel's twin blades seems fun

west steeple
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ooh yeah

jovial yew
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The while things was really fun.

spare lichen
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And theoretically it's possible. Someone messed around with custom animations a while back so it's not out of the question to make new additions for hypothetical new weapons

jovial yew
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That will absolutely be arriving at some point. It's possible now in fact, just very tedious.

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There are at least three custom Dart models so far. Each one has a different weapon appearance (not based on current gear).

wooden condor
gleaming compass
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curious if theres anything about the Firebird out there. A giant elemental that seemingly reigns over the volcanic zone of villude and rumbles the whole mountain when it spots prey is just....a lot to not touch on

jovial yew
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Nothing so far. The translated portion of the walkthrough in the JP Guidebook merely states "it is said to live in Volcano Villude." Which is less than the game offers.

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Oher than that, its name in the EU release is Piton. I have debated the awesomeness of that name with tfz more than once. :)

acoustic jasper
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I was actually on that section of the Japanese Guidebook last time I stopped. I should get back to that and see if there's anything else to find.
In Japanese, its name is ロックハーケン [rokkuhaaken], which is kind of a weird pun. Rokku, or Roc, is a common giant bird enemy type in RPGs. But haaken is the Japanese word for piton. So the bird's name turns into "rock piton", like the climbing gear.
What this has to do with a phoenix is beyond me, but it's a punny name.

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It could also be translated as Roc Harken

gleaming compass
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id be down to fight an Arkenroc

jovial yew
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Yeah, I remember the first time the name was examined. Not as exciting as I'd hoped, but that's alright.

spare fox
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I'm still on disc 3 of my Severed Chains playthrough, but I've come to the conclusion that Claire Feld is one of the most interesting and nuanced characters in Legend of Dragoon, and it's a shame that she got so little screentime.

Granted, her lack of screentime is a product of the elusive drip-fed narrative presented to us in the game, but when you take a second to put all of the pieces together, you get a really flawed and interesting human being.

Claire just wanted to be a normal girl; a mom, a wife, a singer. But Haschel was all too eager to pass on the Rogue School arts to his next of kin, and so she was forced to practice martial arts.

Harsh instruction and cold-hearted coaching caused Claire, who was gentle by nature, to become so frustrated with her situation, that when she sparred against Lotta, what she saw in front of her was not a friend or a fellow villager, but the reason her father was yelling at her.

She had an opponent, and until that opponent was defeated, she would be made to start over and over, keep getting yelled at over and over.

And so, her fist struck Lotta's chest, moving faster than Lotta could react... and hitting harder than Lotta's body could take.

Haschel instinctively, perhaps thoughtlessly, called out his own daughter for imbuing murderous intent into her fists, and shouted her away.

Claire, convinced that she had just murdered someone, likely a friend and fellow martial artist, probably immediately fled the village that day, running from her father, her life, and the consequences of her impulsive act.

Sometime later, she settles in a village south of Mille Seseau's Evergreen Forest, where she meets a man who is all too understanding of her feelings. They are likely unwilling to share their full stories to each other, but they find comfort in each other's company despite keeping their darker pasts secret.

Eventually, Claire has a child with this man, and becomes the wife and mother she always wanted to be... but it doesn't feel right. It doesn't feel earned. As a mother, she is kind, considerate, caring... but perhaps overly so... as if she's compensating for some great sin.

One night, the Moon that Never Sets glows a sickly red, and just as their church murals depict, a Black Monster descends upon the world, and attacks their humble village, burning and killing everyone it can reach. WIth a booming monstrous voice, it demands the location of Princess Louvia; of the Moon Child.

Claire and her family are able to evacuate, but the father soon leaves them behind to defend his village. His face was strange... it was if he knew what was going on... like he had a plan.

Claire held her son next to her, watching as the village that took her in and accepted her despite her secretive nature burned in a black fire, engulfed in a cacophony of screams that seem to last longer than the bodies they came from, as if the ghosts of the dead still burn.

"Your father is strong." She whispered to her son. "You have that strength in you as well... so you can wait here by yourself, okay?"

"Where are you going?" The boy asked his mother.

As she stared into the hell that was once their home, she replied.

"I'm going to fight. I am going to protect our home along with your father."

And with parting words, she ran into the flames of her village.

--

It can be presumed that, from this point, she came face to face with the Black Monster, who we know is Rose. Since we meet a soul familiar to Dart in Mayfil, it can be reasonably assumed that Claire met her end at the hands of Rose, unlike Dart's father, who we know got possessed by Melbu Frahma and simply left.

My headcanon however, and what I would like to propose as a potential fanfic, is that the fight between Claire and Rose was more complicated and detailed than Rose simply killing Claire.

I think that not only did Claire defend herself, but she almost killed Rose, and that's why Rose is such a low level when you meet her in Disc 1.

echo cedar
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(Ooooh. I like that last thought)

spare fox
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(I ran out of characters lol)

But yeah basically I'm thinking of writing a fanfic about Claire's final moments and how she beat the ever-loving crap out of the Black Monster, and was only killed because she brought Rose down to the point where the Black Monster shroud wore off, Claire could see Rose's face, realizes she's been fighting a human this entire time, and hesitates, giving Rose a window to stab her.

And then in Claire's final moments, the two of them share an understanding glare.

Basically I want to propose the idea that there were TWO monsters in Neet that night.

spare lichen
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i think its also fully possible that claire could have been killed by possessed zeig as well. we dont know what happened for sure after they ran back to the village, but rose's surprise at seeing zeig later on implies he didnt make it all the way back to where rose was before turning. since claire ran back not too long after zeig its fully possible she caught up with him and when his possession happened he could have turned on her.

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lots of sad theories for claire

echo cedar
echo cedar
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Either way, she needs a hug.

spare lichen
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fr

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her whole life was fuckin awful

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except for like the 6ish years she spent in neet

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then she died

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either at the hads of her husbands ex lover

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or to her husband himself

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shits fucked

echo cedar
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I'd be down to read some wholesome Neet-era fanfic where she is happy....fate looming in the background

gleaming compass
west steeple
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If she died to Rose, it could be cool if she was going in for the killing blow but in that moment she has a flashback of her friend and she hesitated. (That said idk how I feel about rose getting beat up by a human lol)

vivid tree
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Human possessed with the rage of the war god perhaps?

echo cedar
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(Slightly off topic, but I kinda love/hate possessed Claire's shout during her fight with Haschel...the moan is concerning though.)

jovial yew
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Have you heard the character in Japanese?
https://youtu.be/GQhKH7tog4g?si=YqO8VXGQOa_9ne4w&t=1429

YouTube
つぼはちレトロゲームチャンネル
タイミングが命！レジェンドオブドラグーンを実...

レジェンドオブドラグーンの実況プレイです。１９９９年発売の本作は今遊んでも楽しいのか検証しつつ遊んでいきます。

再生リスト
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sd7ACihQJYg&list=PLY_C6GC1uECzTlb6c23GadaaSO9Vii8aR

▶ Play video
rapid grove
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Okay I've never heard this one and man it really comes off as a lot more eerie and emotionless, just really cool

echo cedar
spare fox
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I cannot sleep, so I'm just gonna throw my most cracked headcanon up here and see how u guys feel about it.

So Rose says that not only does she need to kill the Moon Child, but also anyone who was nearby when it was born, because they will become subservient to the God of Destruction even after the Moon Child is killed.

There is 'some' evidence that this is the case. In order for there to be any religious belief of the Moon Child, there must have been some survivors of the Black Monster, and creating a religion where the Moon Child brings about peace, while the Black Monster kills the Moon Child, would naturally cause its followers to want to prevent the Moon Child from being killed.

But if that's all that survivors are capable of; spreading and popularizing a religion that's inconvenient for Rose's mission, it doesn't really necessitate nor does it justify killing so many people. Not to mention the fact that no human survivors could live long enough to even see the next incarnation, since it'd be another 108 years.

Furthermore, if you look at the survivors of Neet, Dart and Luanna, it's unclear if they were or are under the Moon Child's influence in any capacity. (though it might explain Luanna's Empathic abilities)

Furthermore, if the Moon Child was never on the St. Louvia, then it stands to reason that none of the people on board were under the Moon Child's influence either, yet Rose slaughtered them all the same, which may indicate that if this influence does exist, it is subtle enough for Rose to not be able to tell the difference between someone who is influenced and someone who isn't... or that she didn't care.

And then there's Luanna's mother telling the Black Monster where Princess Louvia went. It's possible that she knew Louvia wasn't the real Moon Child, but her initial hesitation might indicate otherwise.

All that to say, we are really only able to go by Rose's word alone when it comes to the apparent necessity of killing not just the Moon Child, but also everyone around them.

But if that really is the case, why doesn't she kill Dart once she realizes he's a survivor of Neet? Or Luanna?

She says herself in Vellweb "There can be no exceptions." and yet there's two pretty big ones, apparently.

So what's the deal? Was it really necessary for Rose to kill all of those people? Is she lying?

My cracked theory is yes, she's absolutely lying. Not only that, I think that she actually told Dart the REAL truth behind why she killed all those people, albeit in a very indirect way.

When all alone with him at the top of the Queen Fury, Dart asks her if she knows anything about the Black Monster.

Rose responds by saying she has nothing to say to him... but then she gives a speech about the nature of Dragoons.

She says that humans are not violent by nature, but rather they make themselves insane in order to engage in violence and war. That insanity, she claims, is the source of the Dragoon's power; its fuel.

Keep in mind that THIS is what Rose, the Black Monster, chooses to tell Dart when asked about the Black Monster.

This speech is then repeated when the Divine Dragon awakens. The devs wanted you to remember this line in its entirety.

Note that Rose also states that its difficult to transform into a dragoon outside of battle...

All this to say... I think Rose killed all of those people solely to fuel her Dragoon form so that it would last long enough to complete her mission.

Rose has to 'find' the Moon Child before she can kill it, meaning she has to track it down from location to location, and do so as quickly as possible. This means that she has to keep her Dragoon form, or her "Black Monster" form, sustained for a longer period than a Dragoon would normally last.

Before her speech, Rose asks Dart what he intends to do when he finds the Black Monster, to which Dart responds that he just wants to know what it is.

I think Rose was indirectly confessing to Dart why his village had to die.

jovial yew
#

I can't accept the idea that Rose is merely lying about the evangelism aspect of the Moon Child. If there is no threat, there is no reason to kill it as soon as it descends into a newborn baby. She could merely wait several years and take her time. The story only works if the MC is an actual urgent threat.

#

It's possible she only "thinks" bad things will happen if the kill isn't immediate (warnings from the Ularans before the first MC descended?). However, my headcanon is that she's saying all this because she's seen what happens when an MC goes unchecked. Therefore "never again, always kill MC immediately; plus everyone in radius".

#

I almost like the idea that it was about sating the Darkness DS, but that could be done fighting random creatures along the way. Maybe there's a place with no humans and a bunch of monsters she can farm periodically? IDK

worn wasp
#

Sadly we'll never know the truth

spare lichen
#

Another example of a MC survivor is queen Theresa. Being shanas bio mom she would have been NEAREST. So why didn't rose kill her? And she doesn't seem very evangelized to me

jovial yew
#

She wasn't present. I went over these details from the guidebook in past convos, might be able to find one in search.

#

basically Queen Theresa left immediately after giving birth, to take care of state matters. @spare lichen

#

Louvia was left in Neet because she was born ill and needed to recover before traveling.

spare lichen
#

Yeah...and there's that odd matter of the queen not even knowing she had twins, implying she wasn't even conscious at the time or at least super super out of it

jovial yew
#

Yeah, it's possible but convenient haha.

#

in any event Theresa was gone before Rose arrived.

#

Theresa would be a huge gain for the MC though. Leader of Mille Seseau, and the country is already more keen to the "legend." That's a whole country of servitude in the making.

spare lichen
#

But she was still near when Shana was born though. Cus like...she had to be. So she should also be subservient to the MC and thus the GoD. But we don't really see that.

#

So that implies that the evangelization that's supposed to happen either takes time and is an over time effect. OR it means it doesn't happen every time or to everybody, if it happens at all

jovial yew
#

Yeah, it could be random / entropic.

#

the power would definitely grow with time. Shana was able to crystallize Urobolus, and later warded off a fellow Virage. But like.. idk. Wouldn't the MC realize it's a fellow Virage? I take issue with that.

#

that should've made it merely be loyal and try a last strike on the party, or even give it renewed power and extend the fight.

spare lichen
#

Indeed. And if the MCs power only grows with time then why wasn't seles shanas bitches either.

We just don't know enough. Like how shana theoretically is sill the moon child since the GoD soul never went back to its body

#

In theory the MC cults are still a threat

jovial yew
#

Well, i think the point is subtlety, else it'd be stopped even by random people - not just Rose. But after so many years, idk. Maybe the MC requires even more years before the evangelism is more direct? But it's already been 18 years.. so.. yeah. Honestly, if she was ready to take on Urobolus, why wasn't she protecting Seles from Fruegel's raid? The answer is "we have a story about fate" which is very precise and doesn't care about what makes sense.. but still.

echo cedar
#

The whole idea of people being subconsciously swayed by the MC into helping them is probably one of the coolest things about Shana (she's my favorite character). I really enjoy wondering if people were kind to her (or lenient or whatnot) throughout the game out of genuine respect (or whatnot) or because they were being manipulated

jovial yew
#

and yeah, we don't know enough. I've talked several times about how we don't know whether the 108th soul fully left Shana, partially left Shana, or is still intact inside her. It isn't said or shown.

echo cedar
#

Notably that one guard in the Tiberoan capital whom has a (possibly creepy) moment where he is stunned by her looks

spare lichen
echo cedar
#

Dun dun dun.

#

Just kinda insidious and fun to think about. (I don't think she would be aware of it at all if some sort of subtle manipulation was occuring - she's innocent. )

jovial yew
#

"Innocent" 😈

echo cedar
#

Uahahaha

spare fox
#

It's pretty frustrating that Rouge NPCs offer so little dialogue about the town and its history.

There's a bit early on where someone mentions that the area is a collection of island towns, and Rouge is the biggest one, and of course there's all the talk of martial arts, but once Aglis rises from the ocean, that's all any of them want to talk about, even after it sinks -_-

Also Haschel gets welcomed back with open arms despite having been gone for 20 years looking for Claire. You could possibly read 'some' hesitation from Rouge's mayor when he says "Ah yes, you were looking for your runaway daughter..." and then immediately changes the subject, never to bring it up again. Haschel even drinks heavily in Ulara once he realizes they need to go to Rouge, as if maybe he wasn't totally confident they'd welcome him back.

And yet one seems to blame Haschel for what happened, or particularly care or remember what happened to Lotta. Every NPC who isn't Martel only seems to care about Martial Arts or the big stick in the ocean.

I guess it was a consequence of Rouge being comparatively underdeveloped as a late-game town and a pitstop before the plot begins its final act, but it's a shame considering how much build-up it had. Plus, like many of the locations in LoD, it's beautiful.

compact tendon
#

I like to imagine the MC threat for a time was overestimated in its effects.

The good old, maybe not.........BUT JUST TO BE SURE!!!

spare fox
spare fox
#

The japanese version uses the kanji 竜樹 which is the kanji for Nagarjuna.

I could be wrong, but it seems like it was supposed to be worded as if Nagarjuna is a person, and his/her black art is "Four-Gods-Destruction." The next text box mentions the founder of Rouge School Art, so I assume the founder's name in LoD is that.

I kind of thought it was the name of the technique, the way its worded in English.

spare fox
#

OOH!!!! Wait a sec, the Kanji used for Rouge is 竜樹 which can be interpreted as Ryuuju.

So then never mind about the Nagarjuna stuff lol. The Four God's Destruction is Rouge's Black art. Nagarujuna is a mistranslation of the Kanji for Ryuuju, or Rouge as it's translated in English.

Although, Nagarjuna did teach emptiness as a virtue of Buddhism, and Emptiness is a common concept in fantasy martial arts.

jovial yew
#

@spare fox Kara explained about Nagarjuna a long time ago. You may see it here: #🧚🏻lore message

spare fox
jovial yew
#

Oh, is that so?

spare fox
#

Yeah, that kanji can be translated as 3 different names, Tatsuki, Nagarjuna, and Ryuju, but it's the kanji used as the name for both the town and Haschel's martial art

#

I couldn't sleep last night so I went through a lot of Haschel/Claire's scenes and Google Translate Image'd the dialogue, as well as listened closely to the JP letsplayer who read out the text

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Funnily enough, when you machine translate the dialogue, it's often almost 1-to-1 with what the english script is, with very little deviation or re-wording, though obviously there's instances where sentences in Japanese are just structured differently, so they definitely had a translator to figure things out.

jovial yew
#

@acoustic jasper @final leaf did you see that as well? I don't remember.

acoustic jasper
#

Yeah, we had a somewhat related discussion about it in #1194370718935285840 a while ago. In Japanese, Haschel's fighting style is called 竜樹式武術, Ryu-Ju Style Martial Arts. Ryu-Ju (竜樹) seems to be the name of the War God, and seems to be eponymous for the town of Rouge (ルジュ). However, 竜樹 is also the Japanese kanji used to refer to the Buddhist prophet and philosopher Nagarjuna, though there seems to be no intended relation. It's almost definitely a mistranslation done by the English team.
I don't have the line in front of me, but the translation of "black art" is probably something like 封じ手 or 邪法, something heretical or forbidden in Ryu-Ju Style.

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@spare fox Do you have a timestamp of this scene in that letsplayer's video you were watching?

spare fox
jovial yew
#

like Urobolus... or Piton. <_<

#

or SANATOR as tfz would often tell me just means "doctor".

acoustic jasper
#

グフッ．．．何じゃと．．．
今のは竜樹式の禁忌の技、四神滅殺！！
なぜ、クレアは．．．

Gugh, what the...
That was the forbidden Ryu-Ju Style technique, Four-God Obliteration!!
Why does Claire know that...?

My retranslation. Paraphrasing a bit at the end because in Japanese you can just trail off in a sentence like "Why does Claire..."

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So the original translation just completely ignores 式 (style) in 竜樹式の禁忌の技 and says it's "Nagarujuna's art". As if it's this Nagarujuna's actual move.

#

But it is indeed a taboo technique in Haschel's form of martial arts

gleaming compass
#

The idea of a taboo technique for the Rouge art is interesting. Typically, techniques that focus on soft vital points are adapted for training. Piercing throat techniques turn into a chop for example.

Then theres the Dim Mak, derived from acupuncture which is said to paralyze, cause pain, or even cause death after a delayed period. This one is largely fictionalized, sure, but within the context it disrupts the victims chi by turning a healing art upon its head.

Makes me wonder just what it is about four-god destruction that makes it forbidden. Because if its not something deemed too lethal to practice (and the strike itself doesnt seem like anything too crazy) then it means theres something that goes against the arts philosophy itself.

spare fox
#

It's interesting to me that Lotta appears to have her own unique model, and isn't just one of the generic Rouge NPCs. There is a generic NPC that has yellow clothes, but Lotta has a higher poly count and distinct hairstyle.

Maybe she was supposed to be more important and that aspect of Haschel's backstory got shortened/cut.

image.png
#

example of generic rouge npc with yellow gi:

image.png
jovial yew
#

beards, shadows, actual mouths, unique clothing.

spare fox
#

There are instances where characters will refer to "The Gods" and there are times where other characters will refer to "Soa, and his servants."

Is it safe to assume that those are meant to be the same thing?

jovial yew
#

It's complicated. 🙃

#

Oh hi, I was about to tag you.

acoustic jasper
#

Turns out there are many 「ＡＤＭＩＮＩＳＴＲＡＴＯＲＳ」

jovial yew
#

Well yes but that doesn't explain "followers of Soa."

acoustic jasper
#

Oh, yeah

jovial yew
#

Did you or Char ever check the audio transcript for the Japanese edition of the Divine Tree FMV? I forget if I brought it up in the past. That'd help determine if there was anything lost in translation, if nothing else.

spare lichen
#

its possible its a DND type situation where SOA is the end-all be-all and he created lesser gods to govern the world after he was done making it

#

i mean he did make the GoD

jovial yew
#

lil Fringe-esque observers ensuring everything goes to plan, lest Anna Torv get too curious.

acoustic jasper
#

It might be a mistranslation. Plurals are weird in Japanese

spare lichen
#

fr

jovial yew
#

Yes, I do recall that being a frequent part of the discussions over the years.

#

It's so infuriating not knowing whether something is singular or plural.

jovial yew
# spare fox There are instances where characters will refer to "The Gods" and there are time...

We're looking into it, but here's some of what we know so far:

  • There's the Divine Tree FMV where Bishop mentions Soa and his "followers" (Qwerty?).
  • The "gods" answered Melbu Frahma's prayers, and gave him ultimate power. The gods' fire was used to scorch the earth of Saint Imperial Gloriano. This could mean the Crystal Sphere was used to turn Gloriano into the Death Frontier, but it's not for certain.
  • The War God is part of Rouge mythology. It could be a lesser agent of Soa, but unlikely as the guidebook says there's a different backstory to it.

Ultimately there's a lot of mud. :)

#

or perhaps fog. but not the kind that heals.

echo cedar
#

What backstory is there for the War God?

acoustic jasper
#

Although in my opinion, "followers" isn't the best translation. It's more like "servants" or "attendants". Followers make it sound like they have a choice, whereas these are beings who strictly obey.

#

Subordinates

jovial yew
#

Ah, people who can relate to the Mazo then. LOL

#

This is a retelling of the legend, so it can be wrongly conveyed by Dille the same way the MC legend is misunderstood by the public. However, if it was true at face value, that would mean Soa had servants help "prepare" the planet. Either with the terraforming, or setup afterward? Hmmm..

acoustic jasper
#

For all we know, the "servants" could have just been advanced technology. Either way, it sounds like Soa had some help in making this place. It wasn't a one-omnipotent-being job.

jovial yew
#

What if it is literal? Maybe Soa had Twitch followers. 🙃

#

"Headline: Famous streamer seeds planet with life - enables interactive features for audience to influence the process."

acoustic jasper
#

"No Chat, it's not 'the same thing but with wings this time'. They're completely different!"

jovial yew
#

chat votes that the inhabitants think the streamer wants them dead.
Soa: Chat pls.

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I need to write a script brb.

#

script secured.

spare lichen
#

btw where tf is lloyd and lenus from?

#

i vaguely remember a wingly in the forest having a line saying they never heard of em

#

but i cant imagine they are from ulara

jovial yew
#

They're from "other" Wingly settlements

#

not the "Wingly Forest," nor Ulara.

spare lichen
#

disparate scarrtered clans an enclaves?

#

interesting

jovial yew
#

the lore confirms the existence of Lenus' settlement, but a settlement isn't mentioned directly for Lloyd's segment of the guidebook.

#

However, they probably couldn't be from the same place, as Lenus had never met or heard of him before.

#

She met Lloyd around the time she became the leader of a bandit group.

worn wasp
#

I always thought they were from the same place, and Lenus became the leader of bandit group to help him with his plan

west steeple
#

wait i thoug Lloyd || was meru's brother? Oh god did i make that up? ||

pallid igloo
#

You definitely made that up😅

jovial yew
#

That's not a thing at all, heh.

worn wasp
west steeple
#

oh my god i think i made a microaggression against winglies

worn wasp
west steeple
#

shockultrazoom im so sorry Meru

vivid tree
#

Someone track down the story writer

vivid tree
#

Soa got the game devs to prepare endiness for him… they literally did create it

#

Call it terraforming, or programming, or environment or map design

gleaming compass
#

God made the devs make the game for him so that we can learn Soas will, fight against it, then come to the conclusion that Soa is a twitch streamer making the devs make the game. Its all for this moment, right here and now.

vivid tree
#

Yes you’re so right

#

And so that we would know we’re a part of tesfer and Soa could recruit more viewers

gleaming compass
#

all is in accordance with the prophecy

jovial yew
vivid tree
#

Omg I was totally kidding, if that’s actually in the works I’ll wait as long as it takes haha

#

No rush

jovial yew
#

It is highly unlikely but I am trying anyway. It seems like it was mostly Yasuyuki's vision, which creates an unfortunate bottleneck.

#

My contact is in a very different field. <_<

worn wasp
spare fox
#

WHERE ARE YOU FROM??😭😭😭

Lloyd.jpg
vivid tree
#

I am shaking him and shaking him but he’s not answering

#

No backstory is falling out

pallid igloo
#

I only saw the top of his head and thought it was Riku

vivid tree
#

Me, 12, playing kingdom hearts, seeing Riku : close enough. Welcome back Lloyd

compact tendon
#

Am still waiting on the History of Wingly Sports like Wingly Bowling

spare lichen
#

i imagine wingly games are more....artsy

like synchronized flying. or some kind of magical dick-measuring contest

#

or maybe racing they do be fast af

echo cedar
#

^tm

acoustic jasper
#

The Guidebook has almost nothing on him too. Which is weird, because it has several extensive backstories for characters that don't even speak directly to the party

echo cedar
#

Like who?

acoustic jasper
#

There are a lot of little entries like that towards the end of the book

#

There are parts that are just laughable. Claire's entry is at the top of the right page. Golgaga, the big guy from the tournament in Lohan, is two down from her and has a bigger article

#

Then again, I think Claire gets a bigger section in the actual main walkthrough. Let me double check

vivid tree
echo cedar
#

Oh dude, I am actually happy they have an entry for these judges/exexecutioner. I always thought they were interesting.

spare lichen
#

now im concerned though cus i dont want to think about how that happened

acoustic jasper
#

Hmm. I guess no bigger section for Claire. Or at least no obvious ones from skimming it.
I'll just have to keep chipping away at translating everything

jovial yew
spare lichen
#

either way its probably fucked

jovial yew
#

You should read my coverage of hybrids!

spare lichen
#

gibs me sauce boss

jovial yew
#

Not home ATM

spare lichen
#

curses

gleaming compass
#

Vector and the....other one whose name I forget Selebus, are hybrids as well

jovial yew
#

Kubila - Wingly / Human
Vector - Wingly / Giganto
Selebus - Wingly / Dark Tribe

spare fox
# acoustic jasper

Even the Guidebook is playing coy with Claire and Claire Feld being the same person lolol

image.png
#

I think they did it that way because its kind of a really dark twist on the story, and they wanted the freedom to be like "uhh no actually they're different people lol shhhh haha oops haha😅 "

#

Like if we take it as a matter of fact that Claire is Dart's mom as well as Haschel's daughter, that means if Claire didn't kill Lotta, Dart would never have been born, and the Legend of Dragoon would never have been fulfilled.

#

Zieg would have been possessed by Melbu eventually, the Black Monster still would have gone after Louvia instead of Shana, Lavitz would have either died in Helena or broken out without thinking to rescue Shana, who would have been delivered to Doel, then Lloyd, then Melbu, then boom. End of the world

jovial yew
#

but ultimately it is confirmed that they're related.

spare fox
#

oh yeah that's true Haschel does say the thing at the end

worn wasp
#

There are the same person

#

The childhood´s song confirms it

spare lichen
#

I like that its never explicitly stated and that has haschel is the only one who ends up with the full picture by the end

worn wasp
#

Haschel and the player xD

spare fox
#

If Haschel wasn't a bad dad Dart wouldn't have been born💀

worn wasp
#

That´s sad

#

Dart wouldn´t be born if Melbu didn´t begin a war against humans

spare fox
pallid igloo
worn wasp
jovial yew
#

If the plan was optimized there'd be no drama and no game, unfortunately.

worn wasp
#

xD also they would be killing Moon childs, not having a child of their own

pallid igloo
spare lichen
#

Its odd to think that soas plan was for all life to be born only for the last for of life to kill it all. Like...why? What's the point?

#

And now that the plan was foiled

#

Will he come back to see it done?

#

Or is this fully a "god has abandoned us" situation

spare fox
#

if the former is the case, then perhaps his plan was to 'test' his creations, rather than wipe them out with no hope

#

If the latter is the case... then yeah oof

spare lichen
#

im inclined to think the latter since in one of the cutscenes it basicly says that he and his followers leave and that the tree is protected by his signet

and the fact that the winglies were able to seal away the GoD for well over 11000 years leads me to personally beleive that mortal races have the will to defy soa. but who knows

jovial yew
#

For clarity, the FMV never says that Soa and his followers left.

spare lichen
#

not expticitly, no

spare fox
echo cedar
#

YAAAAASSSS. Excellent.

compact tendon
rapid grove
#

@next wren I like your theory, and tbh it would've been pretty rad if this was actually the case. I do think it has some holes within the actual game though.

For one, Charle never mentions that the term came from Melbu, nor that the decision to divide the body and soul came solely from him. Her wording, "It was conceived with the God of Destruction that ends the world. That's why we separated it into its soul and flesh and sealed them away. My baby brother Melbu sealed the soul which was the source of magic power in the Crystal Sphere," and "It started when we Winglies divided the God of Destruction..." suggests that either she was part of the decision (we, as in her and Melbu) or that it was a collective choice (we, as in Winglies) to separate the soul and body. Either the governing body of Winglies looked at this thing and said yeah no it's dumb as dirt and strong enough to reshape reality, no thanks, or at the very least Charle, who we know is fairly agreeable in nature, agreed that it was too large a threat to life itself and needed to be circumvented. In any version, they separated it because it was a threat before Melbu took the soul for himself, which means the name could not have been based on his use of it.

Without Melbu being solely responsible for the name, your theory requires that all of the winglies got it wrong- which not to say they're infallible, I mean they really liked to change the story to their own tastes -but this includes the faction that opposed the subjugation of other races, and it'd be pretty wild for that faction to want to divide an unborn creature's body and soul without significant evidence that it was necessary. And since they already opposed Melbu's faction, his testimony likely wasn't used as evidence versus their own investigations.

next wren
# rapid grove <@299418193527832576> I like your theory, and tbh it would've been pretty rad i...

Okay, but as we hear her discuss Melbu's hold on the minds and hearts of the Winglie people(and his chokehold on the other races) it would make sense that even if it wasn't him personally, his mentality seeing a new world with more power than the Winglie people themselves held would be seen as a threat, a destruction of the world as we know it. As far as why I believe it was Melbu in particular is because it is clear that she and Melbu made the crystal at Melbu's direction to harness that power and that she made the Signets to not just seal the body but to control the amount of power flowing into Melbu. This is proven by his insistence that she make the Moon Objects with the power to break the Signets if needed for more power.

So if it was a threat to their race and society and had enough power where they could not subjugate it like they had the other fruit, sealing it was their only option at that point. Removing the soul was likely an accident in a sense that was caused when Melbu went to harvest the power for his crystal. Remember, it was the breaking of the crystal he was using to channel that power that lead to the creation of the Moon Child.

#

I know it took him 11,000 years but the fact that an unbreakable signet was possible(See Aeglis) is proof that if they truly wanted to seal the Moon that Never Sets and just stop it completely, that was a viable option... one likely interrupted by Soa's dragoons.

#

But now I'm speculating before I have to leave for work

#

So, I'll be back later.

next wren
rapid grove
#

Charle doesn't really talk about Melbu's relation to the winglies as a people. The most we get is that she says she wanted him to stop being a dictator, as all species regardless of traits are the same and should get along well. That could be taken to mean he was a dictator over winglies, but it'd be a bit of a stretch as it was more referring to his treatment of other races.

That mentality would make sense only for his faction, not for Charle's faction who were directly opposed to him. Looking more, we do get the line, "Ask Charle. It was decided between the siblings." in regards to the creation of the signet and divine moon objects- which I think speaks volumes as to the amount of influence Charle wielded. If he held total authority, Melbu would have just acted independently.

"...it is clear that she and Melbu made the crystal at Melbu's direction to harness that power..." Okay so multiple issues with this. First, the quote I gave above shows that the decision to separate the soul and body was because "It was conceived with the God of Destruction that ends the world," not to grant Melbu more power. Second, "Melbu sealed the soul which was the source of magic power in the Crystal Sphere," suggests that Charle wasn't even involved in the creation of the crystal sphere. I think it's more likely that Melbu made the crystal sphere on his own to harness that power, perhaps that's how they split the work even, he'd seal the soul and she'd seal the body, which would explain why Charle thought she'd get away with hiding a dampening agent that limited the drawing of magic power.

"removing the soul was likely an accident..." I think you have the order of events flipped. It is expressly stated in the quote I shared that the first intention was to separate the soul from the body. This was so that the 108th species could not be born, which was the primary goal that both factions agreed was necessary. Drawing magical power from the soul came afterwards.

"That was a viable option" There is nothing to suggest this was not being worked on in the meantime, if anything Savan's existence suggests it might have been. Creating an imperfect, but otherwise ageless and sturdy seal in the meantime is infinitely preferable to the God being born while you're working on a truly permanent seal. It legitimately took Savan thousands of years of uninterrupted magical research to work it out. Having more people might have helped speed things up a little bit, but it's not like with Humans where we die after awhile and so knowledge has to be relearned by our children over and over; Savan had thousands of years of magical knowledge under his belt when he was still thousands of years away from figuring it out. He also didn't exactly start from scratch, he's a survivor from the Dragon Campaign so likely had the education available to winglies at the zenith of their reign and had an entire magical capital city worth of resources to work with.

next wren
jovial yew
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You told us heh. We don't expect you to put LoD over real-life (unless.. ? j/k)

next wren
# jovial yew You told us heh. We don't expect you to put LoD over real-life (unless.. ? j/k)

I have saturated so much of my idle creative time just basking in the depth of the lore, world building, and effort put into a game that honestly does a great job letting you decide how deeply you want to immerse yourself in it. Everything is there if you want to dig, but you as the player only need to know what Dart knows and let’s be real, he doesn’t really care about the Lore. He cares about saving Shana and the world.

#

So… the temptation is strong to make like the Divine Dragon and cut loose.

jovial yew
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He's Owen Wilson, nuff said.

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We should probably talk, heh. I'm the resident loremaster and don't get enough talk with others about the deeper story content.

worn wasp
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I'm loving this topic right know
It's very interesting and I never cared about that deepness of the lore

jovial yew
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Pffft, the deep lore is one of the best parts of LoD! aYaaaaa

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the secrets of Dragoon form, of the Dragon Campaign, of Winglies, of locations...

echo cedar
jovial yew
echo cedar
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....yup. xD I need an Owen Wilson Dart now.

jovial yew
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*Owen Dartson

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... Darten Wilson? Sounds a lot like the iconic line in the NA script "gotten worsen".

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Darten Worsen.

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I need to leave, or I'll just keep going.

echo cedar
#

Hehehe

worn wasp
next wren
# jovial yew He's Owen Wilson, nuff said.

I mean, I agree…

But I’ve also been thinking since I made my post that it is a little bit like how Mugiwara no Goofy describes Luffy from One Piece minus some of the more unhinged aspects of One Piece.

Dart is Luffy if he had more actual brain cells, was a little more serious, and… and that’s actually all you would need to change because Dart just out and out decks people often enough where I don’t think he even needs the sword, he is just smart enough to realize he should probably use one.

jovial yew
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It's probably intentional in that Dart is a generic, accessible conduit for the player. Aloof, but cares about righting obvious wrongs.

west steeple
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Prequel fanfic from the lore heads when? 😂

jovial yew
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I have about ||not telling|| pages written. Posting a draft of it in September, to my Ko-fi supporters. Everyone else will see it later.

next wren
spare lichen
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id also like to take a crack at a prequil fic myself but ive got negative writing chops

jovial yew
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Write whatever the heck you want! So long as it's appropriate for all ages and fits the rest of our rules you can share it here. I was preparing to pen a new topic thread for written works anyway.

next wren
#

Huh... Are you... sure?

spare lichen
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do it

next wren
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Cause... The OC is hilariously non-canon. And ahead of his time in countless ways. I've refined him since but...

spare lichen
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at this point any content is good content

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you do you

next wren
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Alright... after I finish my own original series fiction's final arc of the first volume I'll get to penning the prequel fic I've cooked up.

west steeple
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How is your OC non canon? By being an original character?

jovial yew
next wren
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Anything less is lazy or self-indulgent.

jovial yew
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I'm saying we don't gatekeep, that's all lmao.

next wren
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But I am also someone who cares WAY MORE than I should

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Storytelling is an art

jovial yew
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Well, put that into your work. Channel your passion.

next wren
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And I accept all levels of art. But I believe that every level of art can be at least 15% better than it currently is.

spare lichen
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look at my pfp. im no stranger to fanfics with self inserts, marry sues, gag characters, or out of place characters. as long as youre having fun with it and making it the way you want it to be thats all that matters

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youre own enjoyment is primary

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one of those "if youre not having fun, none of us are" situations

next wren
jovial yew
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(once this part of the chat is settled I'd like to share a great example with you, Blackchibidono)

next wren
jovial yew
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also it's time to baptize you. Free yourself of the 100 emoji, and start using 108 . I made it. You're welcome.

spare lichen
next wren
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@spare lichen Is it weird that from the moment you referenced your own pfp and fanfiction I felt every ounce of your pain all at once?

spare lichen
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not at all

jovial yew
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okay, short story time.

west steeple
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Btw I’m pushing for fanfics in hopes that they can be converted into severed chains mods 🤭

next wren
#

Just because of @west steeple I actually might rewrite and share that original fic for you all

jovial yew
#

A couple years ago, a fellow fan named Beldolor asked me if I'd like a piece of fanart drawn for me. I agreed and my request was instantaneous. I asked for Pelpee imagined as a Wind Dragoon.

I sent reference shots of every Mininto in the game. Pelpee himself, the ones who shuffle in the Lohan minigame, and the ones on the Moon.

.. Beldolor accidentally modeled the piece on one of the Minintos from the Moon instead of Pelpee. This Mininto in particular has a.. bit of intensity in the face region. However, it was for the best.

As a result of this happy accident, and thanks to LoD's expanded lore saying there were more than just seven Dragoons during the Dragon Campaign, I'm working this Mininto into my prequel fanfic.

If I ever get picked up to work on an official prequel, they're going into that as well. So, here it is. The crazed Mininto Dragoon, Wind element, with dual kamas for weapons.

image.png image.png
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Looks to be at least a... four-eyed Dragoon Spirit. Gonna have to teach you about that aspect of the lore too, heh.

west steeple
west steeple
jovial yew
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*108

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the devs were really dead-set on that number, so let's honor them haha.

compact tendon
jovial yew
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Indeed. The Guidebook says there were said to be many Dragoons. Another passage talks about what is required to "go Dragoon," and what happens if the wielder fails to tame the feral Dragon within the DS. The Dragon gains control of the Dragoon form, wreaking indiscriminate havoc. Kanzas is the closest we get to a known example, but not quite.

Savage Dragoons would be a statistical probability at the beginning of the war, and would be a perfect lesson to encourage the rest to tread carefully with their Dragoon Spirits. They didn't start with great wisdom or military knowledge. They were oppressed survivors jail-breaking and struggling to get any footing they could in a bid for freedom.

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My theory is: the more eyes the DS has, the tougher it is to tame. Given that eye count determined a Dragon's relative power while they were alive.

next wren
compact tendon
next wren
#

at least when I eventually rewrite it. Can't promise it will be a big role as I need to measure that based on the actual weight their themes match the story of my OC, but given the nature of the Dragon Campaign, I can imagine it is probably fine

spare lichen
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it would be cool if they tried to make more than the 7 but the dragon spirits violently rejected the hosts, or the hosts died trying to kill their dragons leaving only 7 of a potentially higher number

jovial yew
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I'd have to think about it. We'll see when I get to the point of publishing.

echo cedar
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(Watching the convo with one eye open, but:
I would adore more LOD fanfics to read. Drabbles, short stories, novels, etc. Canon. Non-canon. Crossovers... || did a cute LoD/Warhammer 40k crossover with a wonderful writer a couple years ago. Yes... cute. A blasphemous description in this context. I know. I know.|| So, please, have/write at it.)

next wren
# spare lichen it would be cool if they tried to make more than the 7 but the dragon spirits vi...

I choose to believe that only the 7 we know were a part of the most iconic pushes. In my own fic, a non-elemental dragoon, he has in story reasons why he wasn't a part of the final push and it helps to motivate and define his character.... and keep in mind i wrote what has unfortunately become the most recent draft back when I was in freshman year of high school... when I re-write it, I'll be a bit better about writing it.

next wren
spare lichen
compact tendon
next wren
echo cedar
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|| Lol. I know. I think we were both just high off of Cope-ium or something. But it was domestic. And cute. And depressing.||

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So we at least got...1/3rd of a point? For depressing?

jovial yew
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sorry for the poor choice of words.

echo cedar
next wren
jovial yew
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I'm not looking to do that atm. Also not a brother.

next wren
next wren
echo cedar
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will just vibrate silently in 40k then
(I'm a casual 40k fan. Dont ask me to name off weaponry units and whatnot. I am horrid with names. )

spare lichen
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i started diving headlong into 40k about a year ago and im in WAY too deep to pull out now

pallid igloo
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Sibling from another wibling

spare lichen
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but if we are gonna talk 40k we should probably move it to #🗨off-topic-only

jovial yew
echo cedar
next wren
#

not gonna lie. If I produced the fic in full, it would take place in three parts. Prequel - "Help me, my life sucks and there are no right answers" OG game - "I accidentally'd the apocalypse and no one will ever know" Sequel - "I can explain....."

jovial yew
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Whatever your heart tells you. Usually. :P

gleaming compass
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last time I spoke to hearts I had to leave the country.

fresh harbor
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Hey I have a question about the lore, Rose’s in particular. I’ve been deep in thought about what people might want to see if LoD was being retold.

compact tendon
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Oh come now ole Sato feels a bit ignored.

Besides Dragoons I assume there were a few turncoat Winglies who weren't exactly fans of the magic nazism or Wingly Bowling, the half breed winglies for sure.

In addition I can only assume this but for sure besides the greater the dragon for making the stone likely gave high status and perks it was also likely a number of dragoon squads since the imply of more then 7, where were those human bases hidden and can some still be waiting to be found?

pallid igloo
fresh harbor
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Rose technically killed 100 of the moon child to stop the God of destruction realizing its potential to reset the world right? Wouldn’t it be interesting to play through those back stories? Perhaps she didn’t always have to burn down village after village. The legend could have spread to the point where people who heard the stories know why she was appearing to begin with, perhaps Rose didn’t kill every child herself and that others might have seen the burden she carried and someone else could have done it for her until Dart came along to end the cycle of death.

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Over time it must have gotten harder and harder. I can only imagine what holding in that kind of burden for 11,000 years must feel like, how alone she must have felt being the last survivor still oppressed by the winglies and the threat of everything she ever knew coming to an end if she didn’t continue the cycle. It makes even more sense why she never smiled after all she went through before meeting Dart and friends.

echo cedar
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Cult of the Moon Child vs Cult of the Black Monster. Interesting

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Because there was some talk on fanfic earlier - I vaguely remember some fanfic out there that began to write from Rose's pov after she was charged with her morbid task. It jumped century to century. Donno if it was ever finished, but I remember enjoying what I read. A tragedy.

fresh harbor
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That and I still of course wonder what the journey for the original seven heroes looked like in their quest to fight against the winglies.

compact tendon
fresh harbor
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Same for Hashel and his search for his daughter, Hashel is Darts grandpa right?

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The depth is there and I NEEEEED to explore it aaahhhh this game is such a masterpiece I can’t get over it

echo cedar
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Ditto

fresh harbor
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What I’m seeing too is — “Soa” the creator who planted the divine tree didn’t intend for winglies to rule humans (likely since winglies had this incredible power they assumed it was their right to rule over less powerful beings), it was parody of what divine ruler ship takes form as if corrupted. Soa isn’t evil and even prophecied that darkness would rule for 11,000 years until the redeemers finish what was originally set in motion. Dart’s party epitomizes the harmony between races, the true divine intention of the ultimate creator knew it wouldn’t happen right away knowing the selfish nature of us all, even being merciful and giving darkness a period of time in which to rule before divine consciousness is realized between all species.

echo cedar
#

Niccce

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I enjoy this different framework, albeit it makes everything about severing fate ironic. But that is also ne..at.

fresh harbor
#

Also the irony that Melbu Frahma who hated humans really pissed off Soa with his hypocrisy by possessing a human and taking over the body of a being he hated and wanted to controll is such beautiful story writing. It’s literally God using the weak to restructure and build the winglies into a humble race.

#

It takes some understanding of contrasts between dualities so it gets lost on some depending on where they might be at in life. It’s literally one of those games with so much depth to it when you play it, themes might go over your head you come back to it and you’re like OH MY GOD I GET IT NOW. I’m even more thankful that I got this game as a young boy fighting through the dysfunction of my family. This game seriously taught me lessons that shaped my childhood for the better.

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You didn’t even have to be a complete God to beat the game. The game catered well to all people too. Lavitz is intentionally easier (maybe even too easy) to pull off his additions to help transition players to getting better at other characters additions and if not, hey there’s no shame in playing Kongol for easy physical damage and Shana/Miranda to blow people up with items.

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Not to mention all the cool item concepts like the wargod amulets. I don’t know if there was ever any concept art of the weapons and gear but I’m about to start making it with AI even if it’s just to drum up inspiration

next wren
#

Alright.... Readies notes

With some of the details from @rapid grove the other day, my theory at large remains untouched and if anything more valid than ever.... So I shall explain it in full and to do so I have to do it in chronological order on the timeline.

(Was about to go into details that are mainly speculation and not actually the substance of my theory... I'm going to keep it just to the substantive parts)

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Okay, so we have established that due to the Crystal Sphere, Melbu was able to capture the soul of th 108th fruit and claim that power for himself. We also know that due to the winglie's actions under his regime, the original intended purpose for the 108th fruit never came to pass and that the Winglies viewed the 108th fruit as a powerful and dangerous force that they dubbed the God of Destruction... but we got that title from the tyrannical and ethnosupremist society that did everything within and without their society to secure their power and superiority. We also know the virages they used during the Dragon Campaign were a part of the 108th fruit and thus were likely a product of Melbu's regime using the Crystal Sphere to bend them to their will.

We can only read Soa's intent through a few events in the game that matter. The Winglie claims about what the 108th fruit is, the behavior and effect of the Moon Child, and the way the moon looks and behaves when Shana is in control vs when Melbu takes control.

But for now we are focused on the Winglie interpretation for the Dragon Campaign portion of this theory

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Emperor Diaz, known as The Divine Wind, introduced and lead the Dragoons(my theory that he might have been one aside for another time). Through these dragoons and their sacrifices, the war was ended, but with the Crystal Sphere broken, the soul of The Moon That Never Sets began to wander the world, always trying to find its way back to its body(who wouldn't?) Charle who it is all but outright said helped the dragoons to take down her brother, shared with the only surviving dragoon the danger that the moon child posed and gave Rose her choker. Melbu made a garden decoration out of Zieg and hid inside the Red-eye dragoon spirit(According to Melbu) and was released when Zieg tried to use it to fight Rose(Black Monster).

So what we have here is a man who tried to hijack the will and power of god for himself and his own ego and basically take over the world and make himself god(see also proof of this in how he talks and acts during the final boss fight) who then took shelter in a tool of said god to try and enact his will... again in a sense trying to take the will and role of Soa for himself.

And we have two people carrying the Dragoon spirits that were entirely crucial for setting the stage for Melbu's eventual death to Dart and co.

You may say that if Soa was the one that was controlling when Melbu was released(Whether through deciding when to release Zieg or just deciding when Zieg and Rose would find themselves in the same place for Melbu to reveal himself, either way, Soa clearly engineered these events)

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Now, let's pay attention to how Melbu went about his work. He made the Crystal Sphere so he knew how to make the little sphere we see in the first cutscene, but the big thing for him is a lack of resources. Taking on the guise of Emperor Diaz, he began calling upon the imagery and iconography of the man who he blamed his humiliating loss on all those eons ago. He traveled the world to see humans everywhere but he also eventually found an ally in a winglie youth that seemed to share his disgust at how far his species had fallen. Framing it in idealism, he manipulated Lloyd into being his agent and knight. From there, the two went hunting for the dragoon spirits and Melbu told Lloyd all he needed to know about the Moon Objects and the Dragoons, even giving him the Dragon Buster(Likely a sword Melbu stole so he could have his revenge or that he told Lloyd to steal because he knew the dragoons would arrive to stop him). How he came to posess both the Jade Dragoon and the Violet Dragoon, I do not know, but he saw Doel's discontent with his brother and, seeing some of himself in the human, gifted Doel the power of the Violet Dragoon and we all know the story of how the Jade Dragoon was passed down from there.

To Melbu, he had put all the pieces in place he needed. Doel would get him the Moon Gem, Lloyd had called in a willing and easy to manipulate pawn to get the Moon Dagger.

And Lloyd himself was more than capable of getting the Moon Mirror. All without Melbu having to raise a hand. All from the shadows and behind the face of his greatest foe and in the body of the man who killed him. Melbu had everything and he would take everything...

But since the Dragoons are tools of Soa's Fate... all this was actually an orchestrated operation from Soa... And now we reach disc 1

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Soa knew Melbu had escaped death and Soa couldn't have the Moon Child realize its purpose while Melbu was still a factor. It was too much of a risk. Soa allowed Rose to play the role of the Black Monster to not only control when Melbu would take control but to keep the 108th fruit from committing to its purpose while there was a chance that Melbu could participate in that or even come in and corrupt/steal it like he tried before. So Soa orchestrated everything to make sure that Melbu would be trapped by his own ambition and pave the way for the 108th fruit to be realized.

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This brings me to the fact that from what we see of Shana and the effects the Moon Child supposedly had on people as well as the way things behave in the moon, there was no malice to the moon itself. It sold them goods, gave them places of rest, gave them closure on their emotional wounds and even got them to challenge the lies they have either been told by others or told themselves. The Moon housed countless seemingly extinct lives in them as well. Not every fruit was nice, no ecosystem without predators, but every species was there.... So... now that I've thrown shade on the in universe understanding of the Moon, I want it understood that Soa had no problems with letting them believe that in order to serve his purpose

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In Disc 1, we have Dart, holder of a dragoon spirit, just happen to have been childhood friends and dedicated knight and protector of the Moon Child... That's not a mistake. That's not an accident. Just like it isn't a mistake or an accident that Dart just happened to come home right after Shana was found by Melbu. Dart, having been groomed from birth by Fate to be Shana's protector, did what he was supposed to do, charging past impossible odds to save her. Lavitz joined up with them. Dart back at the side of the Moon Child, where he belonged, the gears of Fate began to move. Rose had been drawn to the area for the same reason, her encounter with Dart was there to manipulate her into viewing Dart and his group as good and innocent people. This was so when she saw Shana's abilities she wouldn't just kill her on sight. By allowing her to run into Zieg's son and reminding her of her humanity, she also began to hesitate...

And as the game goes on, the Moon Child gathers a great many knights. All of whom are gifted with Dragoon spirits either as they need them or to keep them at the side of the Moon Child. Even when the Moon Child was going to die, the SIlver Dragoon Spirit just HAPPENED to be in the nearby ruins and seemed to recognize her! How miraculous!

I still don't know if Lavitz dying was intentional on Soa's part or not, but it did turn out to be very useful later so I choose to believe that like the force, there is no such thing as coincidence.

And remember, Disk 1 ends with Haschel trying to leave before the Violet DS recognized him... that's no coincidence either.

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Disc 2 happens and the Red DS gets 'stolen'... stolen by the bandits that were helping Melbu's plan and could inform them of the conspiracy... One they never would have uncovered if they hadn't been driven to seek it out. They would have continued on their journies to try and find Lloyd if not for the DS being stolen. And depending on if you want the Moon acquisition or the Lohan market as the way it goes, lets assume it is the most common way since its discovery the Lohan market is canon. That means that the DS just happens to have found its way to a market our party frequents often(Legendary gear be real guys) to add yet another knight to the defense of the Moon Child.

But something happens in Disc 2 that Soa didn't plan for... and where I find an interesting development... is Shana falling in love. Not just dedicated quiet adoration and appreciation that would keep her knight loyal... no... this was more than that. She was forming a will of her own. She wasn't just picking up a weapon to fight for survival but actively forming a will to be strong. Her own person... and she was also becoming self-aware of what she was thanks to the Ghost Ship. Instead of just being a passive and gentle soul, she was forming dreams and aspirations of her own... And it was when they got to Disk 3 that Soa realized that Shana was becoming more than just his tool... and so this is where I feel the shift to 'Let them fight for their own will' began in Soa's plan.

One thing was sure, Shana could no longer be allowed to fight her own battles anymore. With her becoming more aware of what she was, it was only a matter of time before she awoke too much to her abilities and the entire party would turn on her. But more than that, he needed her vulnerable for Melbu to tip his hand...

#

Lloyd was slowly proving himself to be a liability given his growing affection for Wink and so Melbu just assumed that Lloyd would be killed like every other pawn when the Dragoons were done with him. Thus the message he wanted Lloyd to pass along to them. Moon Child in hand and only a handful of signets left, all in cities that the filthy humans hadn't occupied, Melbu had one last cruel idea. Torment his oldest foes who still pursue him by revealing himself and playing the part of the man who killed him.

Moon Child on hand and his knowledge of the way it works, he could draw on her power and finally drop his act. He could stop pretending to be human and start using all his abilities. See how he used that one winglie magic fire attack on Lloyd, but better, before casting him into the long fall.

Melbu then went about his mission to destroy the signets and claim ALL of the 108th fruit's power for himself... which was a part of Soa's plan...

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By breaking the signets, the 108th fruit could be born as intended. All the knights of the Moon Child had to do was chase after and defeat Melbu. There is one other coincidence that I don't think is a coincidence. The tests that were done to make the Psyche Bomb... I don't think that was wasted on Soa... because what are the Moon Bosses if not just those trials amped up to 11. The power that was born of their determination... it is non-elemental but based on its behavior and the light it releases, it isn't non-elemental. It is so Omni-elemental that it can't be resisted. A power born of determination... a power Soa had seen before... and that Lloyd had harvested seemingly at random back in Disc 3... And now we have why Lloyd was spared by Dart... why he turned on Melbu... Because Soa saw Lloyd as a potential knight... called for him to harvest the Divine Dragon Soul... but Lloyd wasn't ready then... and by the time he was, the Psyche Bomb experiment happened and a new thought came to Soa...
(AND BEFORE YOU SAY IT! I know that the Divine Dragon's defining trait is pride, but that is another form of self-will. so my claim holds up.)

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Flash Forward to the Moon and Soa testing this "Self-Will" and "Determination" that these Knights had... the sort that they had ignited in the Moon Child and the very thing that formed new magic... and as they overcame each Trial, Soa became convinced. Convinced that the plan to remake the world using the 108th fruit wasn't necessary. That these creatures had done just fine for themselves while he was planning against Melbu. They weren't perfect, but they had something beautiful that they had made without Soa's interference... and in doing so, Soa gave each and every one of them his blessing. Including Dart, by having Dart cast off the tool that had been used to manipulate his fate for so long and wear the mantle and armor of the dragon strong enough to be called Divine. And so Melbu, a man who stole all to make himself god finds himself finished off by a man who earned the right to bear the will of god. A Divine Judgement delivered both to Melbu and the 108th fruit itself. Rose and Zieg are not only reunited as they once were at Soa's will but are finally allowed rest after having lived far too long... and then as we see, the need for the Dragoons was no more. Their users went on to live their own lives by their own will without the manipulations of Soa. Even the Moon Child was allowed to leave her duties to Soa behind and live the quiet and peaceful life she and her knight had decided for themselves to have.

And that's my theory in full if I cut out all the little minutae that getting them wrong probably would have distracted from my point.

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TL;DR Most JRPGs are about a bunch of misfits teaming up to kill god. LoD is about Dragon Power Rangers Killing Satan at the blessing and direction of God... any questions?

fresh harbor
#

Oh, it should be stated that Shana was indeed not the actual moon child but instead a decoy. The real moonchild of Darts time is Princess Louvia.

next wren
#

I'msorry... I shouldn't yell... but...

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They were twins

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Shana's twin died on that ship so that Shana could live.

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and Shana isn't her true name. she is Princess Louvia

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Shana is just the name we know her by

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Rose killed the decoy and thought it was good, but Shana is very VERY clearly the Moon Child.

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Literally, all of LoD wouldn't be possible if she wasn't. Cause if she isn't, then why does she explode the snake, why does she hear virages, why does she glow? Why would Melbu be obessesed with her or even be able to use her to awaken the Moon that Never Sets?

gleaming compass
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we dont know shanas birth name, but Louvia was the name of her twin sister - a seperate person.

next wren
gleaming compass
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no worries, fan theories are always fun, lets just try avoid muddying up the canon info within them though. Lord knows plenty enough people already get confused as is lol

next wren
fresh harbor
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Hang on, no you might be right, Louvia might have been the decoy. I was getting mixed answers

next wren
#

But I did promise I would drop it today so there it is. Any feedback on any parts that openly conflict with Canon, I would appreciate.

fresh harbor
#

I also have to point out that Soa sounds like sower - someone who sows/plants, hence the divine tree. (You get it)

pallid igloo
gleaming compass
# next wren Ten four. I only dropped this because of my convos with <@131606461947052032> y...

Its interesting. The game plays vague with the concept fate, offering us soas fated will with the god of destruction being born, but also contrasting with the same fate that the dragoon spirits seem to follow. And so by the end its hard to tell if you're defying fate or living up to it as dragoons. This is the first attempt ive seen at unifying the different "branches" into one. Nice!

fresh harbor
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The God of destruction was just a reset if Rose failed. If the God of destruction was realized it was to restart the whole process over again until higher consciousness of creation would get it right. Winglies has every chance to stop, nor did anyone of wingly kind (as far as I’m aware) chose to stop and continued assuming rule even well after the dragon campaign and their numbers had decreased.

#

So yeah, for Rose talk about the shit that keeps you up at night for 11,000 years. Give up, lose any chance of being reunited with her true love, process starts over possibly meaning she has to relive the whole experience as part of prophecy until getting it right

jovial yew
fresh harbor
#

It could be looked at as a cruel test from Soa depending on perspective, who knows, Soa perhaps could have endured waiting 11,000 whole years to see if this part of Him/Her/It (Melbu) would change his actions and maybe there’s other planets in their cosmic garden that Soa planted a divine tree to find a way for Melbu to live peacefully as well

#

It’s the ultimate humility for a God and vital for Soas own growth as well since His life is in all things

jovial yew
fresh harbor
#

For a God I don’t imagine evolution being as pretty and beautiful as some might imagine it to be.

#

Overall it’s like putting God through a sieve that refines the divine energy to a point of oneness (harmony)

#

Like a series of simulations aiming towards a better tomorrow. Our minds are essentially computers playing part in the divine process

#

And the mind is a terrible thing to waste, you can only glean from what that mind tells you, you can’t look in their brain to find Soas will, although through prophecy it surfaces

#

Then again I’m only human, I don’t fully know what Soa made winglies capable of understanding

next wren
fresh harbor
#

Hey good writing should leave room for questioning (divine will?) unlike winglies who hated their authority being questioned

next wren
fresh harbor
#

One hand washes the other

#

TYPE SHIT

jovial yew
#

To me it's more damning that the Divine Tree would include beings with such vast magical power if the system was really meant for temporary existence and then eradication.

Dragoons can break the sound barrier. They and Winglies can access other dimensions. Winglies have found immortality, placed a large organic egg in orbit, and could probably leave the planet if they wanted to given their magical potency and flight. If Soa's plan is found out, which it was, all these abilities pose a major threat to the security of the experiment.

Soa's organization spans space and time. Whether they're just people a-la the TVA in Loki or omniscient beings a-la the Q Continuum in Star Trek, I'd argue that no life-seeding experiment would ever contain beings that can commonly traverse dimensions of the universe. Could be an oversight in the writing, but.. it feels like something is off there. Why give them so much power? The org must be incredibly powerful if they have no problem giving their seeding experiments those abilities.

Perhaps Soa is going rogue, and testing whether any lifeforms from this Tree can help them upend their org or fight some other threat to the org. However, if that's the case, why is magic waning in the world? Can Soa restore magical potency species-wide with the snap of their fingers once the test is passed? Also, even if Soa did need help, wouldn't the passage of an extra ~12,000 years be a potential problem? What threat is coming at least 13,000 years in the future? Therefore as interesting as this could be, it doesn't seem plausible.

fresh harbor
#

Maybe this plays on the concept of absolute power corrupts absolutely

next wren
#

And I hope in my heart that it is enough. He just wanted to play with his plants. Crossbreed a few to make some really breathtaking creations. And then one plant species started to act more aggressively so he had to tamp that down and remove the problem flowers

fresh harbor
#

I’m calling it lonely God syndrome

#

Existence above all existence gets sad no one else equal to it is around so Soa makes creation that He can live in and through (female or male)

next wren
# fresh harbor I’m calling it lonely God syndrome

I mean... from all I've seen, if Soa is lonely, at least he isn't a literal child about it. Seems pretty chill to just let his creations do as they please unless he has to step in.

What actually got me forming my theory was that episode of Futurama about Bender meeting God. It wasn't until Wulves points that I realized that I was just missing the last few parts to unify this theory completely. They clicked into place like they were always meant to be there.

fresh harbor
#

Knowing humanities stubbornness no one could probably bring themselves to kill the moonchild themselves so Soa set things in motion in a way that even if short lived that life could be lived out however evil or good

next wren
fresh harbor
#

It’s not like she wanted to I’d argue

next wren
#

But given she is a veteran of a war to over throw an entire ethnostate... she probably has done worse or seen worse... so that was probably a factor in choosing her to become the Black Monster.

fresh harbor
#

Hence my theory of maybe a few humans were like.. “look I know why you’re here.. just give us a few days” testing Roses mercy so she’s not seen as much of a monster as Melbu

next wren
#

Takes small notes

This actually informs a character in my current novel and if I don't kill them in the intended method, I might use notes from Rose's story for them.

jovial yew
fresh harbor
#

She only had to kill the moonchild before it grew too strong, maybe there were some times the moonchild became a menace and she barely managed to defeat them because she found them late. Traveling the world isn’t easy even for a dragoon

next wren
fresh harbor
#

Honestly Rose could have her own whole game devoted to the 11,000 year period she endured

jovial yew
next wren
fresh harbor
#

Maybe it was a thing where the longer Rose waited the more monstrous she became resisting fate

#

Not allowed to sleep, prophetic nightmares to keep her immortal awake and driven because “God never sleeps”

#

Say while I’m here is there a designated space to put concept art?

#

Found it

jovial yew
#

It's possible there was "an accident" but that would probably be the maximum. To be fair, it'd make for better storytelling if there was more than one screw-up. Less boring than 1 day of "did the thing properly" and 107.999 years of "i guess I just pass the time now". However, this is more an issue with the devs' choice to over-use the 108 number. It didn't need to be literally 108 moon children. It didn't add a special wow factor for any kid who finished the game.

Let's do some math. If we make the MC return every 108 days, that's 108 cycles in a mere 32 years. Let's try 108 months per MC, then. That would give us a period of... 972 years. That would work a lot better than 11,682 years, given that the countries of today started right after the DC ended. It's hard to believe no countries rose or fell in all that time. Look at how much change Earth has had in a mere few hundred years.

#

official LoD art can go in #🐲legend-of-dragoon, unofficial fan works go in #1198846723225817249 .

worn wasp
#

@next wren all of your explanation was awesome
Very entertaining to read

fresh harbor
#

Does anyone else find it funny that the dragon buster looks like it was ripped off from a piece of the divine dragon?

next wren
#

I vaguely see it

gleaming compass
# next wren .... She can fly at super sonic speeds and the Black Monster form amps up the po...

I think its not an actual form. Just glimpses of her in dragoon form with her black armor, that over time would be exagerrated. The game shows us the visual representation to keep it vague and put us in the shoes of how her victims perceive what shes doing.

as for the actual question, she has far too much reasoning imo to be fully given in to the insanity. Enough to conversate, interrogate, and explain her reasoning - even if it IS devoid of mercy. I also think she wouldnt carry that baggage so heavily if it was just basically her going berserk

next wren
gleaming compass
#

the actions you make while having all your mental faculties are heavier than the ones you make when theyre gone

jovial yew
#

yeah, the 3D model in-engine is the Dragoon form verbatim, with a shroud to cloak her identity. Better than being identifiable, which would lead to her being outlawed/hunted in that 99% downtime between killings.

#

If you use SC's debugging tools to enlarge the model, you'll see it more clearly.

gleaming compass
#

gotta leave survivors to be identified

next wren
jovial yew
#

I don't see what that has to do with using SC now.

#

Do you want unlimited power, or not? (j/k)

next wren
jovial yew
#

Ah. Well, apologizing is silly, given you couldn't know that in advance. Learning is good.

next wren
#

This community.... tis a wholesome one... but then again what did I expect? Actually we all know what I expected.... this is nice...

echo cedar
#

...
(This is the moment in my head where a passionate, overblown, heated battle over pixel count or something quite mundane occurs.)

next wren
#

Look, the drifting polygons are endearing! I'm glad SC kept them.

#

It makes it look like everyone is breathing.

jovial yew
#

Well, replacing them would be an assload of work. Even just doing one was a lot of work (see our 4K60 preview video on Youtube).

#

what was done for core SC, was the removal of PS1 "wobble" and improved math among other things.

echo cedar
#

(Kekeke)
Probably not the place to ask thread wise, but as a person who is largely unversed, what creates the wobble? I figured it was not entirely unintentional - is this an incorrect assumption?

jovial yew
#

You'll have to ask Monoxide in #⛓️‍💥severed-chains .

#

probably related to the math in some way.

spare fox
next wren
spare fox
#

btdubs I'm still hard at work on my Claire prequel fic. The rough draft should be done in about a week, then I'm gonna go through like 2 proofreads while I commission artists to draw at least 3 or 4 scenes

image.png
#

Like you wanna talk about coincidences, how about the fact that Neet had a Church dedicated to teaching the lore of the Moon Child and Black Monster and THATs where the Moon Child at least passed through, causing it to be attacked by that very monster.

Like that town could not possibly have been more ready for a random Black Monster attack lol

#

They'd see the Red Moon and be like "Aw shit here it comes"

next wren
vivid tree
next wren
vivid tree
#

Oh yeah totally fair then

worn wasp
#

More like her lover xD

vivid tree
#

I don’t think they confirm that at any point, but it’s definitely possible lol. He doesn’t seem that interested when she makes a move on him though haha

#

He just goes “……. Anyway” lmao

worn wasp
#

I think that´s because she just uses her when he needs it or something... xD idk, she seems pretty in love with him to just be her friend

vivid tree
#

I definitely agree she’s in love with him but i read it as unreciprocated

#

But it’s totally ambiguous and you can definitely read it the other way

spare fox
#

Hey I seem to have missed some developments with this guide-book thing, does it have anything new to say on Claire or Rouge or the Rouge school?

gleaming compass
jovial yew
echo cedar
echo cedar
#

Hmm. Thinking about Lloyd now...and recognizing that I interpret him as being rather callous all around.

Lenus - I dont think he cared for her in the slightest. Just a tool.

Wink - I have split feelings on him and Wink. On one hand I think he just cleverly took up the opportunity to save Wink only so he could get close to the Queen, and on the other I think he may genuinely just dislike lawlessness and fought the aggressors just to stop their antics. Either way...I...dont think he actually cares for her. I think she delivers the shock of "the weak can still fight/protect", which then, perhaps, opens his eyes to the thought that the world, though imperfect, is still capable.

Albert/Lavitz - I mean...DB1 s8Lavitz DB2 ...aYaaaaa

...But I wonder what exactly did he envision for the rebirth of the world / how did he think it would come around aside from "dont actually destroy the world, Melbu, gosh"?

spare fox
jovial yew
#

all we really know is that it's confirmed she's the same Claire for Dart and Haschel, and that she killed Lotta by dealing a Lotta damage. 🤪

vivid tree
# echo cedar Hmm. Thinking about Lloyd now...and recognizing that I interpret him as being ra...

It’s not clear in the game at all re: lenus, so we just have the guidebook to go off of there really, which says they were friends. I agree with you re: Wink though. When i was a kid playing i really wanted to read some kind of romantic interest there, but as an adult to me it seems like he’s a very justice-oriented, ends justify the means type person. So the first time he saved her, i think he did out of pure altruism (he does believe a better world is possible). Then he learns he can use her connection to get the moon mirror, so when she’s attacked by bardel, he intervenes MOSTLY to capitalize on that, but also because he’s telling the truth when he tells bardel he finds him offensive for picking on weaker beings.

#

I don’t necessarily read him as callous, but more that he’s deeply messed up from ((unknown backstory)) and the current state of the wingly race. He latches onto melbu because, again, he’s an idealist who really wants to believe a better world is possible. To that end, imo he views himself as an expendable weapon in pursuit of that better world. He commits terrible acts in order to achieve it, but understands that they are terrible and so is willing to pay the price (when he tells dart to kill him at the tower of Flanvel)

#

I think he’s basically decided that’s all he’s good for

#

….. I’ve been rotating him in my head for over 20 years so i have Thoughts

#

….. and he’s my Babygirl

echo cedar
#

(Kid-me also wanted there to be a romantic interest too. So does sap-me. NOW I AM OLD AND BITTER AND FULL OF HAT- nonsense.)

vivid tree
#

I think at best he finds her affection flattering but ultimately that’s it

echo cedar
#

Aye. Alas. But aye.

vivid tree
#

Because she loves an idealized version of him, the knight in shining armor, and doesn’t actually know him at all

echo cedar
#

Tragic, really.

vivid tree
#

Mhmm

#

His whole thing is tragic so i just ignore the last bit

#

I simply have changed it in my brain so that he either 1) just gives the dragoons the spirit and the dragon buster and then leaves or 2) doesn’t actually die but instead teleports away and barely survives

#

He would be better served spending his life making amends for his misdeeds instead of just dying imo

echo cedar
#

I do like #2.

#

(Though Im okay with how he ended. I just wish he lasted a wee bit longer.)

vivid tree
#

It’s even kind of plausible, since the winglies teleport away in a flash of light. And people also die sometimes in the flash of light

echo cedar
#

...traveling the world...still shrouded...making small amends here and there...

vivid tree
#

I KNOW it’s the dying flash of light but I’m living in delusion here

echo cedar
#

Lol

vivid tree
#

Let me have this lol

jovial yew
#

Just give Lenus the hot prize already.

echo cedar
# vivid tree Let me have this lol

No no, now you got me waxing poetic about a very very old Lloyd becoming some sort of hermit mentor to (le gasp) a new generation of dragoons (or not), who never mentions his name or his involvement with the game's timeline. (Lol but hopefully not too Obi-Wan like)

#

....visiting Wink in her sunset years...holds her hand for a bit and apologizes before she dies...

vivid tree
#

Wink will be very grateful

echo cedar
#

I nearly spat out my drink.

jovial yew
vivid tree
#

Drew look me in the eyes and tell me he’s not completely beautiful

#

That’s right you can’t

jovial yew
#

Just because you're Lenus doesn't mean I have to be Wink!!! aYaaaaa

#

also yes, ver-beautiful.

vivid tree
next wren
vivid tree
#

Melbu: please stop talking to me

next wren
vivid tree
#

Yes wink is definitely projecting

compact tendon
jovial yew
#

Hi, sorry what happened? xD

#

We know that under Charle the Ularans were a little more "moderate" in their politics. They wanted co-existence with humans and other species. I almost think it's an oversight that no humans are seen visiting/trading with them when you get there, but maybe that died out. As we know, they used to interact with Gigantos, before they were nearly wiped out.

All this to say, not every Wingly was a self-centered butthole who felt a need to subjugate non-Winglies. All we can say is that many Winglies were like this, and apparently there weren't enough moderates/lefties to overthrow them. Or even if there were enough, Melbu attained the Crystal Sphere which would give them pause.

#

I suppose it's possible the more seasoned and mentally-fortified combatants would possibly get higher-rank Dragoon Spirits, but it's up to the DS to choose. Of course, during the DC we can speculate that the D-spirits were less picky (survival first), but I bet there were plenty of mismatches. Savage Dragoons would be a perfect lesson-learned moment for Diaz and the Liberation Army.

#

In terms of additional human bases.. who knows? 🙃 they surely had to have more locations than just Vellweb, but they'd probably have to be smaller outposts they could afford to lose if necessary. Since only their Dragoons and Dragons could fly, Winglies could scan the terrain for human supply centers to siege. The human faction would only be able to defend a select few locations like their capital. The rest would need to be small/hidden for stealth and guerilla tactics.

next wren
#

For example, the Online Safety Act isn't a right wing policy...

#

Those in power prefer to stay in power and therefore they will do all they can to secure it by force, because force became a viable option

#

Another example is Oda Nobunaga. Man was a notorious war criminal and a historical super villain to even this day in japan, but if you look at his actual actions, he would definitely be considered left wing in his tactics and politics.

#

But an authoritarian he was.

#

So... History is complicated. Sufficent to say that saying left or right makes it more about our modern politics than the politics of the setting and fiction.

#

And before I get labeled or hurt anyone. I'm an apolitical anarchist. I just watch history and realize local communities and strong family bonds are what survive and resist the machinations of those in power.

jovial yew
#

I'm using those terms as a relatable analog. Nothing is 1-1 obviously; but mass slavery, abuse, and killing isn't progressive in any universe. Further, at minimum the term "moderate" is given in the game script verbatim.

next wren
#

And 10-4. Melbu was at best a Stalinist and at worst... 40s germany

compact tendon
compact tendon
next wren
#

Anyway... better to leave this chat there. Enough has been said

jovial yew
#

it should move to #🗨off-topic-only if yall wish to continue.

compact tendon
#

Been a bit but on the subject of Virages, Winglies of the witty kind for sure dabbled with the regenerative and energy properties of the Virages, I know I would have.

Besides implanting Virage parts onto various subjects to control and power up said subjects I imagine use of Virages extended to not just Vanguard, Security and Anti Dragoon Combat but also construction and demolition perhaps as Portable Executioners and Genocide doers

Super Virages for sure a later more powerful variant to see combat since if sooner would have been seen more use and deployment, thing's a weapons platform that could level places and areas with the right amount. The variants as I brought up previously like those flight pack looking ones leads me to believe there are other kinds we never see like aquatic or humaniod types but who can say for sure.

#

My other interest atm in relation to Legends of Dragoon

I like to imagine the Anti Dragon weapons of the Winglies were a very scientific process to eventually get the results they did. Not just dissections, studies on live subjects or combat data from those having fought dragons and even dragoons but also assessing resources and powers available to the Winglies before and during the Dragon Campaign

onyx violet
# fresh harbor Does anyone else find it funny that the dragon buster looks like it was ripped o...

i'm playing around a bit with your notion here but.. it sure would be interesting if the dragon buster was created by winglies from remnants of that one dragon god that lost to the other (the other supposedly being the divine dragon). if winglies dominated the world when both dragon gods existed, surely they would've known about that battle even if they chose to stay out of it. maybe they salvaged parts from the dragon god that lost and forged the buster.

what's even more interesting is that it's actually stated that the dragon buster couldn't kill the divine dragon, and apparently from lore, neither could the dragon god that lost. it would make sense that the buster was unable to achieve that feat given that the dragon god that its parts came from also couldn't achieve it either.

#

all of this^ is assuming that winglies were even alive when that dragon god battle took place though.

jovial yew
#

Interesting theory. Given that the dessicated Dragon in the Black Castle is being harvested for energy to power it, and that the elevators there are based on Wingly technology, it's plausible that Winglies used to harvest Dragons for energy and power before/during the Dragon Campaign. They'd probaly target Dragons with the most eyes possible. The 7-eyed Dragon that lost the battle would be the only harvestable one of its kind.

onyx violet
#

right? i really want the prequel that we'll probably never get. in theory, the dragon campaign and all that took place before it would be so interesting to dive into

#

i'd actually like to have a pre-prequel too, showing us info about how the world changed when the winglies were born.

#

there is one other thing i wanted to ask about lore-wise, involving shana/louvia/theresa. we know they're all connected and we know that the moon child can passively sway those in its presence to help deliver it to the moon. we know the midwives whisked shana away because of this. what i really don't understand has everything to do with theresa; the simplest question: how do you completely forget that you gave birth to 2 children?

#

everything lore-wise basically states that she never knew she had a second child. i'm over here like... O_O how do you forget such a thing?

#

unless that too was a consequence of passive swaying on even the mother.

jovial yew
#

It's possible for a mother to pass out while giving birth, so that's our working theory. There's no direct statement but it must be the case. Believe me, we had the same question.

onyx violet
#

lmao

#

guess that's plausible enough to go with. maybe the moon spirit influenced her passing out/forgetting

jovial yew
#

This happens in real life, yeah

#

could be

onyx violet
#

she could've passed out giving birth to louvia and not been aware that shana came right after. that does make sense

jovial yew
#

I can believe it, especially compared to the idea that Theresa, who just gave birth, was allowed to travel back to Deningrad immediately. However, Louvia who was ill could not merely be taken by road to Deningrad as well once she was better. No, they put her on the Saint Louvia, which is a very long winding route compared to the land route.

#

I don't imagine a long boat trip is safer than a short land trip.

onyx violet
#

agreed, although to be fair it was a decent sized ship. i can't imagine 18 years changing the monsters around the terrain that much but*, i wonder if that could have been a setup by the moon spirit to deceive rose intentionally. maybe a sort of soul-memory of having been killed by her many times

#

it makes me wonder if the moon child had ever been born with another twin in the past, or if this was the first and only time

#

with lore as deep as LoD, you could write an incredible book series that spawns 10-20 books easily

jovial yew
#

It's probably the first time, but her insistence on immediate murder of the MC suggests there was at least one "accident." I'd just wager she didn't get there in time, rather than a twin deception.

#

Yeah for sure. Lots of stories big and small could be written.

onyx violet
#

i hate to ask this question here, but is there a section specifically for lore not released in US/eng versions? the translated stuff that you have to go searching for

jovial yew
#

Why hate to? It's the perfect place to ask. :) I was just documenting some of it a few hours ago while sitting in voice chat with other fans.

onyx violet
#

ahh right on, first day in this server and some people are very specific about what gets posted where so.. y'know

#

i would really like to take a long dive into all the lore i never caught. i know about the dragon god battle and the birth connection, but i think that's it

jovial yew
#

You're good! For now you can read all of it in a single spreadsheet, where volunteer translators have helped us decode the contents for the last several years. You want the two blue sheet tabs of this document. However, there are also a few bits hidden in the 300page walkthrough so we're working on that as well lately. LOre section is 99% done though.

onyx violet
#

oh man, beautiful

#

when you say the two blue sheet tabs, you speak of the ones at the bottom?

image.png
jovial yew
#

Correct

onyx violet
#

oooo i am all over that

jovial yew
#

There is also extra content in the Taiwanese-Mandarin Guidebook, but we haven't had the help to comb through it yet (beyond machine translation). There are also bits of exclusive lore in random sources, like videogame magazines or even some documentation from the 1999 SIGGRAPH convention (that one has the height of the Divine Tree, found nowhere else).

onyx violet
#

wow, i believe it. i didnt know such a detail was ever mentioned

#

i might be able to help locate a translator. maybe. i used to play a lot of ragnarok online back in the day and know some people who may have that ability

jovial yew
#

on New Years I found the rarest knowledge to date confirming Dragoon maximum flight speed, that some Dragoons can teleport, who Lloyd is visually based on, and much more. So, trust me, you will have a lot to read and enjoy.

onyx violet
#

its all in the blue tabs?

#

i saw your post about the max flight speed on a reddit thread that led me to this discord oddly enough

jovial yew
#

No, that's only for the Japanese Guidebook. That and all the other sources' knowledge are being put on the main website as well as the wiki, so it's easier for yall to read and enjoy without sifting through spreadsheets. Not quite ready yet.

#

ah, yes that was the 25th anniversary stuff. I loved doing that.

onyx violet
#

i'm a patient lad. will absolutely be stoked when its ready though. it's a tossup for me between dragoon and legaia overall, but lore-wise i really have to give it up to dragoon due to its depth of past

#

im playing it again for the i-dont-know'th time, always hits just as hard

jovial yew
#

Indeed. I enjoy lots of the front-facing story but ultimately I am here for the backstory in that regard, period. The Dragon Campaign is such an interesting and unique story to me, and I want to help realize it in any way I can. Plus all the rare info in general.

#

Are you using the fan port for your latest playthrough? If not, strongly recommend.

onyx violet
#

just an emulated copy on duckstation, which doesnt have the fps increase but does have some graphics sharpening/cleanup

#

i've been checking out info and vids on severed though

#

i'm tempted to try it, but another oldschool part of me is saying 'leave that to the ones who know it better'

#

i still have the actual discs but you know how easily those get scratched up. but i have no qualms about 30 fps with blocky graphics since i grew up with 'em

jovial yew
#

Mm. Try it once, for at least an hour or two. You'll be glad you did. The models are still blocky, no assets are replaced. Just rendered properly, which restores what the developers always wished we could see and hear.

#

You have my personal promise that you will love it to death.

onyx violet
#

if i remember reading correctly, a duckstation save file can be used with severed?

#

or was that just epsxe?

jovial yew
#

Yes, any emu savefile that is a full memory card.

#

Drop it into /saves, run the game, and you will be prompted to enter a name for the campaign.

onyx violet
#

beautiful, gotta thank duck for the fact that they dedi a full memcard to each individual game

#

im just about at vellweb, but perhaps i'll get into it tomorrow at work during some freetime (which i tend to have a lot of)

#

i appreciate the lore chatter. gotta close up shop for now but sometime tomorrow i'll ask in general chat for basic setup instructions for SC (dont have time at the moment or i'd do it now). also, extreme thanks for the j-translations. i'll be reading a lot of that tonight when i get home

#

thanks again drew

jovial yew
#

You're super welcome. Here's the instructions for next time:

sudden shellBOT
spare fox
#

btw is there a consensus on the translation for Ferry/Fury/Flurry of Styx?

acoustic jasper
# spare fox btw is there a consensus on the translation for Ferry/Fury/Flurry of Styx?

The original name of the Addition is 三途の渡, Sanzu no Watashi. Ferry of Sanzu.
The Sanzu is the Buddhist equivalent of the River Styx, and so it was localized as "Ferry of Styx". It seems like the "flurry" or "fury" part was an accident from the original translation team, and they could not correct it in time before the English voice acting session.
My working theory is that they were second guessing the l's and r's, as the Additions in the Japanese version are all named in English using katakana. Except for Haschel's, which are all in traditional Japanese and use heavy kanji to give him a more traditional "martial artsy" feel. They were likely going through the whole party's roughly translated Additions looking for this type of l/r mixup thing not realizing that Haschel was the single exception the naming convention.

#

The whole thing feels like a "localization" made by people who don't speak Japanese and were just guessing at someone else's translation. There can be guesses and wiggle room for things named using the limited space of Japanese katakana emulating English words, like ムーンライト (muunraito) meaning Moon Light instead of Moon Right, but the kanji 渡 can literally only mean "ferry". It's a direct translation of a Japanese word.

gleaming compass
#

Are his JP addition names all counting up to 6 as well? Summon four gods, five rings, hex hammer - itd be fun if "san" was also a play on words to be 3

acoustic jasper
#

It is! Hold on, let me grab my things

gleaming compass
#

he counts!

acoustic jasper
#

All of his Additions in Japanese start with the number of attacks in the combo

#

Including Sanzu no Watashi, which starts with "san", the kanji for 3.

#

It's the biggest reach by far

gleaming compass
#

look at me bein onto something

#

even if he doesn't have a "seven" attack he still counts it with "six paths, seven lives" Which i still maintain is the coolest name i've ever heard for a technique.

acoustic jasper
#

I meant to edit this, but I seem to have lost the original document. After an embarrassing amount of research and consultation, "Thunder Kid" does, indeed, mean "Thunder Child/Kid/Brat"

acoustic jasper
#

Which, to me, seems like a bizarre move for someone in his 60's to use

gleaming compass
#

no no, it fits. His best friend in mischief is a teenage (?) girl.

onyx violet
acoustic jasper
onyx violet
#

crazy how so many dragoon fans really resonate with the campaign. its such a shame it never came to pass as a prequel

west steeple
#

We may have convinced some people here to write fanfic set during the campaign 😂 hopefully they write it and someone can code it into a mod hot_prize

onyx violet
#

its been a long, long time. i think the last fan fics i ever read were around the time RE1/2/3 were out

#

D-campaign enormously welcomed

vivid tree
#

So it’s been a bit (about 1.5 years?) but I’m wondering if you have any new ideas @jovial yew on how to find lloyd’s glyph in the game files? This is where we left off, and you were thinking it might be in a submap file

image.png
#

This is the one I’m looking for

Screenshot_20231227-1732422.png
jovial yew
#

Might be a battle DEFF. @edgy isle ?

#

re: check on Wingly Magic Symbols (Lloyd / other Winglies)

edgy isle
#

so you can manually navigate to those files once dumped by Severed Chains and convert them with any TIM file format converter... in a future I will add those files as part of the general conversion of 3D Models + Animations + Textures

vivid tree
#

Thank you! I’ll do that

jovial yew
#

Just came across some 108-tier lore about Soa and the Tesfer Realm. It's mostly review but contains two additional facts. 👀

spare lichen
#

Tesfer?

jovial yew
#

Yes, the thing I helped unearth awhile back.

#

it was a little over seven years ago.

vivid tree
#

Ooooo please tell

jovial yew
#

I was going to say but a few people in general chat killed the mood. Being serious, I'm a tease sometimes, but I'll reveal it quite soon.

#

the hint is: Soa's origin.

compact tendon
jovial yew
#

It's okay, I got revenge. s6Rose

vivid tree
jovial yew
#

Convince me to! xD

gleaming compass
#

how long must i wait due to the sins of others, Drew?

jovial yew
#

Two weeks. 😈

west steeple
#

I’m just gonna make it up 😆. Soa is an alien egg from another dimension and the 107 eggs were essentially bacteria that grew from it, while 108 is Soa itself

echo cedar
#

Now, are we talking Xenomorph alien or just alien, cuz now "Moon Child" has gotten a lot more chest-bursty in my mind.

#

Note to self: Odd Crossover Idea #2....

west steeple
#

That’s what Shana was trying to do to Dart

echo cedar
#

Damn.

#

That's some serious lore dump.

worn wasp
#

Soa is Jenova's father 🤣

spare fox
jovial yew
#

Yup, been suspicious for years.

vivid tree
#

Fester is Soa’s avatar in the physical realm

#

Soa thinks they’re so slick for that

echo cedar
worn wasp
pallid igloo
#

Jenova is a Virage Embryo. Makes sense

echo cedar
#

We're making real progress here. 👍

west steeple
#

Does this make Shana Sephiroth’s mom or sister

pallid igloo
#

Shana is Sephiroth's aunt

west steeple
#

It sure is a small world

static quarry
#

@jovial yew wanna trade information 👀

worn wasp
static quarry
#

I KNOW THE LORE!!! @sudden shell eat rock

dusky sedge
#

So Winglies have a longer life span than humans, but how long on average? At first I thought they were immortal like LOTR elves, but in my recent playthrough, when passing through Ulara, it says the only reason those Winglies have survived since the Dragon Campaign is they are granting immortality to all of the city's inhabitants (specifically the same magic in Rose's choker).

acoustic jasper
#

Do they have longer life spans? I may have missed some dialogue somwhere.

#

I just kind of assumed that they age differently than humans, stay looking youthful for longer.

dusky sedge
pallid igloo
#

Charle is over 11000 years old, but time in Ulara was stopped

jovial yew
worn wasp
#

They live more, but in Ulara time doesn't pass

west steeple
#

Isn’t Meru supposed to be around 50, is that official?

worn wasp
#

Meru´s supposed to have around 30, I calculated 33 or something

west steeple
#

So they age about half as fast as humans I guess

worn wasp
#

His age is labeled in japanese book, more less

west steeple
#

So he’s late 20s appearance wise, i could see that

worn wasp
#

That´s one of the main traits

jovial yew
#

Lloyd appears 28, but is 53 literal years old.

worn wasp
#

53 yeah, Drew said it right

west steeple
#

So it’s more “magic slows aging” rather than “winglies age slower”

worn wasp
#

So if Meru appears 16... (her official age if you search on google) then you only need to do math like with Lloyd

worn wasp
#

To give her "inmortality"

west steeple
#

Yeah I like the “magic slows aging” for winglies cause of roses choker and Charle’s city

worn wasp
#

Yep, the choker xD I forgot the correct word for what Rose wears

pallid igloo
#

Remake will have her cat ears be the enchanted piece

jovial yew
west steeple
#

Mah headcannons

vivid tree
#

The data…. The children yearn for the data

west steeple
#

The data…..mines?

vivid tree
#

Yes

jovial yew
#

No

worn wasp
#

Script mines

west steeple
#

I tossed a mind purifier

jovial yew
#

"Smells like.. spirits... and good ones too!"

echo cedar
vivid tree
#

Don’t make me say DILF vibes because I’ll say it

#

Age is just a number baby

echo cedar
#

Uahahaha.

#

Cheers.

vivid tree
#

Imagine thinking i didn’t know he was 53!!! My literal wife

echo cedar
#

Literal silver fox....
Fine. Platinum fox...

vivid tree
#

I know that’s right

#

We’re both adults it’s fine

jovial yew
#

(o_0)

echo cedar
#

It's always a mind bend for me whenever there is a species (or humanoid whatnot) that has an extended life. Shorter lifespans I get, but for some reason, longer stresses me out to think on.

#

Especially when other characters do not share that extended life span.

Probably the pessimist in me but: how boring, how lonely

#

So thinking on the fact that the winglies in Ulara (or Rose) have lived for so long drives me nuts.

west steeple
#

Maybe extended patience comes with it lol

echo cedar
#

Absolute zen monsters.

jovial yew
#

you can magically erase questions like "they'd go absolutely mad living on autopilot in a small town for 11K years."

echo cedar
#

Elves, asari, winglies, vampires, aeldari, space marines, etc. Just warps my mind.

vivid tree
#

Imagine that’s how dogs see us

echo cedar
#

I wonder if they feel sorry for us in return. "How boring. How lonely."...

jovial yew
#

Something about a pet lizard.

west steeple
#

A lot of those races are pretty wise so they probably just stay busy with education (yay Asari shoutout)

#

I’d be SO bilingual if I had that kind of time

echo cedar
#

Me:

  • Spend 20 years just doom scrolling...
  • Learn a lot but forget everything after 3 years of disuse
  • Would 100% troll younger species especially if they were also less tech advanced
  • Die "young" anyways due to idiocy (see point 3)
worn wasp
#

Probably we would just waste our extended time with silly things 🙈
Of course there will be exceptions, not everyone is like that but... Yeah, that's the major probability

next wren
#

Okay… but… does anyone think that Claire had access to the War God for real or is that just the rose tinted goggles of Haschel as he saw her in his own mind?

echo cedar
#

...That's a pretty cool take.

Though I'm inclined to not go too deep with LoD.

Could definitely work out though since he only "sees" her again on the Moon.

next wren
echo cedar
#

Lol...maybe interpreted that teen rebellion as War God possession

#

But, aye, I believe that he's just fighting his inner demons or something like the rest of them.

jovial yew
#

There's a lot of potential with the War God as a subject. The guidebook basically dispels the notion in general, but in my opinion there was room for it to be a little more real.

next wren
jovial yew
#

All the story boss fights are not real.

#

The token ones, I mean.

next wren
#

I’m talking specifically the War God within the Rouge school

jovial yew
#

Ah

#

It is essentially a myth passed down.

#

Kernel of truth, no actual godliness

next wren
jovial yew
#

I'm a little sorry, heh.

echo cedar
#

Please.

jovial yew
#

You should still try it. There's clearly something to it. I believe it's the same thing Haschel channels into with Flurry of Styx, as well as the move he uses in HoG.

#

To me, the hard part isn't that there isn't something to it, but rather that it isn't clearly connected to the game's general concept of magic. IIRC it's referred to as "ki" or something like it. It could be magic, but the lore is very clear that the first human to use magic is Sandora Elite, and that's still technically unnatural. So if it's not magic, what is it? A law of physics? A step on the road to a higher plane of existence? shrug

next wren
#

My ‘sequel’ fic concept played with a lot of concepts and implications, but the part this effects is Kongol’s half breed son who is peaceful and centered…. BUT BECAUSE OF DART’S DAUGHTER!!!! Gets pulled into some crap he doesn’t want to be and actually eventually channels the War God, despite being down an arm. That was the gimmick for that particular character.

echo cedar
#

whispers it's fanfic. Do whatever brings you joy

#

Go forth. Let crazy possessions happen

#

How neat a concept...if the War God intentionally poisons/possesses kind hearted pacifist people....

next wren
echo cedar
#

As you wish~ do that which ultimately pleases you

jovial yew
#

Good fanfics are not strictly about how canon-respecting they are. It's more the spirit, than the letter of it (which you may know, just echoing the sentiment anyway). If you're adhering to most of it that's more than enough.

next wren
jovial yew
#

Ohhh, I like that element a lot.

next wren
echo cedar
next wren
#

That’s why I put in all caps that Dart’s daughter brought him into this. I genuinely imagine her, in the context of the fic concept itself, to be someone so drunk on the legends and the stories that she just kind of goes on adventures… to the point that when conflict envelopes the land due to something complex she just kind of breaks into places and links up with people who were connected to her family and the legends in hopes she can be as cool as her dad was, taking entirely the wrong Stories and lessons away from the tales she was told as a kid

echo cedar
#

Cute

next wren
# echo cedar So whose the lad's mama?

Honestly, I want to say Kongol would name him Doel or Indora(the first for obvious reasons the second because “Indora is the Strongest Giganto”) but I’ve never been completely sold on either.

#

Olivia: “Okay, hear me out… I know that I asked you to do something that cost you an arm… but UPSHOT!!! You can channel the War God and the Ultimate Rouge School techniques! So I’m kinda awesome actually and helped your training! You should be thankful! Now help me twist everyone’s arms into calming down and making world peace”

#

She literally in my fic, has always been portrayed as a young idealistic woman with and adventurous spirit and an arm mounted crossbow with five bolts slotted to it.

echo cedar
#

Narrator: No one was thankful...
🙂

next wren
#

Olivia: “I haven’t been ‘recognized’ by the Dragoon spirits… but that’s probably fine and doesn’t mean anything. I’m sure they just don’t know who to pick.”

jovial yew
# next wren Bingo

Pardon, RL came up. I just wanna close with: I know the extra lore you've been learning about is interesting, and something you wanna adhere to or perhaps even incorporate in some cases. It can almost be bewitching! I mean, look at me haha. I will swear by it. And yet, if I were in charge of a remake.. I'd have to rewrite the story and change gameplay to construct what I believe would be an excellent version of the story. It's just how hindsight works I guess. I dunno.

next wren
#

I mean, take counters from LoD, pair them over that system, then take that is the link point to reverse engineer Additions as combo strings and you would have something to build around

#

But then again… “Missed!”

jovial yew
#

I know turn based vs anything else is a tough choice full of pros and cons on both ends. However, I was actually thinking about being bold in another way hehe. I want to remove all magic stats from all player characters except Meru. I strongly believe I can make it work.

next wren
#

I mean, genuinely… it is weird that Meru was my second ever fictional crush, the first LoD crush and she was the perfect embodiment of ‘but she is 1000+ years old’ ever, especially because she is technically already engaged to be married

#

I’m just… totally ruined as a fan.

jovial yew
#

s2Kongol I see.

next wren
jovial yew
#

I dunno how you jumped to that but congrats on finding enlightenment!

west steeple
#

One of us one of us

#

Tbh I was thinking if we got the Kongol Dating sim down, we’d branch out and add other characters

jovial yew
#

Zackwell Dating Sim, I agree.

next wren
jovial yew
#

Nope.

#

Lavitz is dating Menon, the parasitic demon on his back.

west steeple
#

You’re just saying that so you can have Zackwell!

jovial yew
#

I am.

west steeple
#

I’d bet Zackwell dating sim is just disneys beauty and the beast lol

next wren
#

You guys are too much! I love it! And that all of this technically counts as Lore because it isn’t in Off Topic

jovial yew
#

Zackwell would probably be a good match for Monster. Imagine what the Dark Tribe would think of that part of the 108th fruit.

next wren
#

I’m dying!

jovial yew
#

dunno why you're laughing, that's pure beauty. Monster even floats like Expedition 33's Lune.

#

there is no higher aspiration.

vivid tree
spare fox
# next wren Okay… but… does anyone think that Claire had access to the War God for real or i...

I think it's at least reasonable to assume Claire had 'something' about her that Haschel became obsessed with enough to essentially become abusively strict with her, and whatever that was, that's the part of Claire that killed Lotta.

Its easy to get distracted by the Demonization form but Haschel also says that Claire was able to read his movements when they first sparred and that she had some kind of hidden power.

My guess is that after Claire's mom died, Haschel started teaching Claire as a way for them to spend time together, and maybe it was fun at first. But once Haschel got it into his head that Claire had the talent to surpass him, it stopped being fun and games and became so serious that he started engulfing her life with something she didn't want, and that friction caused frustration, turning to anger, turning to rage, impatience, envy, hatred, etc...

If Rouge School involves some sort of ki/chi system (and it most certainly does if Haschel's Home of Gigantos feat is anything to go by) then what would happen if you combine latent talent for a mystical martial art with intense trauma/abuse-induced negative emotions?

Idk I might not be explaining it right cuz the melatonin is starting to hit lol. Basically I think the War God is more of a short-hand for reaching a certain point within the Rouge School, and you can reach that point by embracing negative and destructive emotions. Idk if there's literally a God of War that possesses you, I think its more of a religious cope, kind of like "the devil made me do it" type of thing lol

The japanese script during the Claire boss fight actually uses the word "Messatsu" at one point to describe Claire, which if any Street Fighter fans are in the server, you have a general idea of what that means.

next wren
spare fox
#

Mostly I believe 'The War God possessed me' wouldn't hold up in court lol

echo cedar
#

Challenge accepted.

#

Any thoughts on who Claire's mom is?

#

The soft in me likes to imagine Haschel loved deeply and then lost Claire's mom early, hence another reason why he poured a lot of expectations into Claire.

And his playboy attitude is something of a coping mechanism.

But I'm also fine with him just being aloof in that regard too - one night stands with consequences throws cards in air. I just prefer the former.

next wren
echo cedar
#

Sweet and sad

jovial yew
next wren
jovial yew
#

You lost me.

#

I mean I know it's his statistic quote but lol.

spare lichen
#

bros a hyper dork

next wren
#

Albert's bedroom in Bale... It has a useable twirly slide to go to the dining room. No joke. real lore.

#

I know because I used it by mistake while investigating after I found Lloyd in there.

jovial yew
#

I know about the slide.

#

I was trying to determine what Albert finding love had to do with Claire's mother, and then I realized it was a simple tangent.

next wren
spare fox
# jovial yew There's a lot of potential with the War God as a subject. The guidebook basicall...

if we assume that the War God is not actually a real thing, then maybe what the humans are calling "War God" is actually the second-hand accounts of the Dragoons from the Dragon Campaign. After all, what else would a human in that world refer to a God of War if not a Dragoon, which turned the tides.

And if that's the case, maybe all the War God equipment you can find/buy in the game are blacksmiths taking a crack at replicating Dragoon equipment by hand. (Wargod's amulet, Wargod's sash, Ultimate Wargod, etc...)

In reference to Rouge specifically, I might even go as far as to say that Kanzas himself might be the War God, as well as the founder of the Rouge School. That would certainly explain why Haschel and Kanzas have the same Dragoon Spells, considering their japanese names are... well, japanese names, in order to distinguish Haschel's additions and spells as more traditional martial arts techniques.

Either that or maybe Kanzas was seen by Rouge ancestors, since Aglis was right next to the island and there must have been a battle there during hte Dragon Campaign. Maybe they saw what Kanzas could do as a Dragoon, and it led them to form the Martial Art that became the Rouge School art, and the reason it's so powerful is because it's trying to replicate what a Dragoon was capable of.

I'm not sure which of the two theories I like more.

jovial yew
#

Well, the simplified canon is that the War God is not what it is portrayed to be. However, there's still something to it, as we see with Haschel's techniques (destroying the large slab in HoG, Flurry of Styx, et cetera). Your pitch about imitating Dragoons is interesting, and could extend to other sources of magic.

For me, no matter what the truth is about the War God, I have mixed feelings about the combat arts taught in Rouge. The devs seem to separate ki/chi from general magic, but to me that'd be a weird line to draw. It's unlikely that this planet has both aspects and that they're unrelated to each other. I mean, Soa could do that, but this is more likely just a gamedev issue where RL concepts are inserted alongside fantasy elements which just aren't married well. They're piled in together in a haphazard "we like this!" sort of way, just like with the Dark Elf and Orc minor enemies.

next wren
# jovial yew Well, the simplified canon is that the War God is not what it is portrayed to be...

HOLD IT!!!

The devs also make a difference between Wingly magic, dragoon magic(which based on the Divine dragon spells are just channeling natural abilities of the dragon through the spirit in question), and the magic items we use(notice the dragon block staff only blocks dragon magic). So hear me out. What if Ki is ‘human magic’ for lack of better explanation. Because we already know Burnouts are not made of magic inherent to humans.

#

And on that vein, we only see generic monsters use the magic we do inherently… which means item magic is… monster magic put into bottles?

jovial yew
#

It's possible I suppose. Personally I'd wager that magic is one shared system across all species. The ki element is just real-life influence leaking in, the same as the token Dark Elf minor enemy. It's there because it's a popular element of myth, fiction works, or history; not because it fits the world of Endiness. Winglies would be capable of species-based targeting, given their intellect. That way they could depower Dragons without depowering themselves in the process.

next wren
jovial yew
#

Yup. LoD is first and foremost about style, and style dictated they have a few signature attacks with item magic to fill out the kit. That's why those three fights are so different from the OG Dragoon battles.

next wren
#

I'm glad that I'm good at writing fight scenes... and I get the feeling practicing the movements of additions when I was a kid using sticks kinda made an impact.

jovial yew
#

Happy to validate, haha. There are many aspects to it, but the devs really wanted LoD to feel immersive and cool. So that steals some of the lore integrity, for better and worse.

next wren
#

Does it really... steal? Or does it... enhance?

next wren
#

And I won't lie... Micheal's beam attack has informed how I describe every consuming wave motion gun attack in all of my fiction because that's what it feels like

jovial yew
#

Definietly not enhance - some of the game's worst flaws come from lack of consistency. It's a high-fantasy game, but when a sword combo does more than Dragoon attacks there is a fundamental problem with the game's titular concept.

next wren
#

oh... you meant the power scaling... yeah... fair point

jovial yew
#

Well it's just one of many examples, heh.

#

they were inexperienced and took on a giant project they weren't fully ready for, which is fine.

#

I guess to put it simply, I think there's room for both. Let the lore have integrity - it'd boost the quality of the game and increase positive response from players. There can still be plenty of style with iconic camera angles, over-the-top attacks (Eat this!), and so on.

next wren
#

Seriously... your comment caused a chain reaction in my brain and made me realize why I love to write fight scenes, why I'm good at them, and why I view them as equally important to quiet moments, and why I do them..

jovial yew
#

Good combat is good. :)

next wren
#

I lack the game framework to contain the good combat I would love to have in a game with my name on it. Nothing quite captures it. LoD would be close but... that's just nostalgia bias and I don't have the skills to make an equivalent... nor the patience to learn. So instead my fight scenes shall remain contained to my books. XD

jovial yew
#

It's part of why I love LoD, actually. Well-designed enemies with movesets that impress me = a higher review score from me lol. When I actively want Kongol to smash my party through a wall, or for Vector to straight-up EAT THEM, the game is doing something right.

#

Anywho, yeah. LoD has lots of investment in style and cinema.

#

which dovetails into immersion, just like the interactive-attacks aspect.

#

Hell of a recipe, this game.

spare lichen
#

Im sure we've asked this question before but how big to you think the dragoon spirits are? I always imagined them to be about the size of a golf ball. Something small enough to be used as a pendant or maybe embedded in a bracelet but too big to be on a ring.

#

But I can see them also being as large as a baseball but that's probably it

echo cedar
#

I think about the size of a golf ball too.

As a nerd, I've been collecting spherical stones that remind me of the dragoon spirits...with varying degrees of luck. I think they are sized ~40mm? Feels nice in the hand.

#

Seems a decent size to tuck away in a pocket too.

jovial yew
#

Yup, probably between a golf ball and baseball.

echo cedar
#

Boop. An attempt for: dark, wind, earth, divine (the petrified wood one in the middle with the "eye"), light and sea (the sea-green colour isn't really coming through but I promise it's still pretty).

As you can see...I can't seem to make up my mind about earth/golden, I have yet to find a pleasing one for fire and lightning, aaannd I might switch out the dark or sea one for something more pronounced if I happen to come across them in the wild.

20251029_191630.jpg
compact tendon
#

The more eyes the larger the dragoon stone ends up I say