Combat Styles Improvements - Beta Update 2

[delicate wave]

Is that on roids

Same with bird

[royal shale]

technically Nex is a Blood Nihil which means she’s based on a vampyre, Smoke Nihil is part Aviansie Nerrrrrd

[zinc carbon]

Personally I like stalling :p bit mixed on dummies though

[flat rampart]

If they keep stalling- they need to telegraph it and include it in the ability description

The bug => feature pipeline/history of both osrs and RS3 is fine, but it causes problems when it only ever exists as some kind of secret mechanic.

[zinc carbon]

I think that's fine though since it's like an endgame interaction. It would be bad for new players to run into skill ceiling stuff like that

[delicate wave]

Oml who let dec in

Dec go fucking craft runes

Or gib me back the attuner

❤️

[delicate wave]

Ye

[delicate wave]

Prayerflicking is a huge bug

[viscid horizon]

Lawl

[delicate wave]

But it went to become a core mechanic of osrs

And content on osrs is balanced about it

[delicate wave]

And it gives depth by this

You cán 1 prayerpoint inferno etc bc of this mechanic

It's stupidly broken (and iknow you can noprayer inferno, saw the thing)

But it's embraced as a mechanic instead of changed, because it works

And it's fun and adds skillceiling

Idt we should keep viewing stuff as glitches/bugs, but more as, 'do we enjoy these mechanics that happen to be in a 25y/o game, or do we not like them'

A bug in my book is a boss 1shotting you, or your items getting deleted on death, and milder variants of this

With obvious nuance added

[flat rampart]

Right; I'm fine with this. But how did OSRS adapt to this? It introduced bosses that interact with this system to teach players how it works.

This is the gap that stalling has now. There's very slim chance the average player would find this mechanic on accident and be introduced on how to use it.

[delicate wave]

100% agree and would add that stalling, like prayerflicking etc should be introduced

[flat rampart]

Yep!

[delicate wave]

Not to be the stallingbreachman, idc thatt much about stalling perse, but the principle of rs3 pvm is kinda okay imo, needs some tweaking sure (hence this convo), but wouldnt change the entire script

And in this case some of these proposed changed kinda touch/change the core of rs3 pvm

Or runescape pvm in general

Since stalling you baragehit into ags maul is ancient

Coming from someone who is quite decent at endgame pvm on main, but is now playing a cgim that ran into the literal issues new players ran into last year

[viscid horizon]

Btw about how much DPM is DoT focused Magic under a standard FSoA Crit Rotation for Beta?

[delicate wave]

@tight fossil

[delicate wave]

^

Josh has answers to this

But he basically said like 0

Like his entire schtick, and reason im even having this convo, is bc he said bleeds would be dead content

[viscid horizon]

Combust-centric rotation is about equal to FSoA?

That does not sound right.

[zinc carbon]

Did I forget to put it in family box? Soz went to lay down XD

[flat rampart]

JMods in PvME have not said this outright, but they've heavily talked about how they don't like bleeds right now and don't feel like it's worth the spaghetti code to fix them. They interact badly with the game. :/

[zinc carbon]

Mod Ryan was still theorycrafting a fix earlier today

[zinc carbon]

This is a good point, though I feel like some things should be introduced in layers. Maybe tiles and prayer flicks in layer 4. Ticks and stalling in layer 9?

[cinder lily]

There not being a great in game tutorial to combat will be a problem, but i also dont know how you even would do it.

Honestly Jagex could work in tandem with pvme to make some video guides. Also sounds like something RS Guy may excel at?

[viscid horizon]

Fighting Game tutorials seems the easiest way, imo. Every couple of unlocks, talk about the new abilities and synergies with them, and then do something like 'use ability/rotation x times'.

Some time after unlocking damage boosters, do a rotation practice thingie and then a 'deal x amount of damage within the time frame, casting these abilities x amount of times'.

Information like that would need to be sourced from the community, but having a central location ala Combat Academy could be good.

[cinder lily]

I noticed when you first do anything in the beta it gives you tips or something. Haven't read them because normally im diving into trying a rot and they piss me off, but im glad theyre trying something.

Its hard to add a tutorial in game and not break immersion.

[royal shale]

Flavor loss as well as content loss, even if they rework the t95 wands to not be burns I still liked the power fantasy of just incinerating shit D:

[amber spire]

upon logging into the beta again ive been thinking and i can still say that. yep ranged still feels shit.

[viscid horizon]

How so?

[cinder lily]

The more ive used it, the less I like the ez uninteractive meteor 6/tick adrenaline. Obviously the amount is fun, but it being just given feels odd. If they're set on meteor being the source, and they want the amount similar to now, drop it back to 3/tick and crank the basic multiplier up to something like 3x.

Unrelated, idk why tendrils was removed when magic and ranged kept it. These could be 0 adren abilities that cost health instead. Quest rewards. If I recall not a super hard quest either, but I could be wrong. I think melee could even have this be an opportunity to help sustain. Maybe its still a dot/bleed and while active you heal on hit. On theme for "blood." They could add the necro counterpart as well to fill out the roster of 4. Dunno what to do there.

[amber spire]

being generous you will spend 4 gcds before you even get to deal damage

ds > shadows > ecb > gale

thats dog shit

and thats ignoring the use of natty if you build spores up and smoke cloud

[viscid horizon]

I mean that kind of sounds like any general pre-build and knowing when to drop your stuff.

[crystal thunder]

with prayer disable abilities like smash being removed does anyone know what will be replacing pray disable in PvP minigames?

would be cool to see this replace all pray disables

https://runescape.wiki/w/Demoralise_(Open_Beta)

[zinc carbon]

Why would you ecb in swiftness? Also gales is a direct combo ability and not a full rotation ability

Wouldn't classify it as the same sort of set-up ability

[wise wing]

so i've actually gone and done some pvm with mage, and i honestly can't see how this is better than the current system

a big part of issue with mage was how it does a 180 flip from a shitty to a good damage style from fsoa/grim

and the new changes don't really fix any of that

aoe damage also took a turn for the worse

[marble notch]

They do

[wise wing]

as overall output is worse, and reliance on the expensive magma tempest ability has increased

since deto is gone

[marble notch]

Before you get fsoa/grim you have to play different instead of trying to do the crit gameplay loop with no crit

You have to lean into burn

[wise wing]

the wild magic becoming a 5s cd 25% abil does resolve reliance on eof

but crit gear reliance hasn't really decreased

[sand panther]

barrage AOEs and the edge targeting fixes feel like they compensate just about any AOE options magic had before

besides maybe the fix to burns not being reduced by chain

since soulfire could nuke everything it chained to

[wise wing]

that might be solved if they introduce some filler gear before fsoa

and make grim pages cheaper

[marble notch]

They did, I just told you

Burn

Wand orb

Combust

[wise wing]

what is that'

[sand panther]

there's not really any way to not make crit top heavy for magic

[wise wing]

first time hearing about it lol

[marble notch]

It's the ability that lights your target on fire, it costs 25% adrenaline and does a lot of damage, but it can't crit since it's a bleed

[wise wing]

if they want to keep mage a crit farming style that's fine, but we should have something players can help get into the playstyle

[marble notch]

The t95 wand and orb have a passive that synergizes with this

[wise wing]

instead of having to buy a 2b staff and 10m/hr pocket item from the getgo

[marble notch]

It's not from the get go because you can use burns and dual wield instead

They're a lot cheaper

[sand panther]

it will alway be top heavy on crit because crit's damage is lower earlier on, all of the top end stuff is overwhelmingly strong, and the way crit gets stronger as you get more of it means it snowballs. You could make more early/mid game crit stuff but it'd completely pale in comparison to late game, and you'd still need tons of it for it to matter

[wise wing]

i think i'll buy into this logic now that I've thought about it

but man aoe sucks

i also wish they stopped with this whole concept of abilities that don't generate nor use adrenaline

[sand panther]

most likely people wouldn't be looking at it as "ease into it" in the mid game feeling good on its own, it'd be "make crit more plentiful without relying on grim because it's expensive" like a sub 10% pocket item, or introducing so much crit early (with lower damage anyways so crit per point feels weaker) that the endgame would now have absolutely bonkers crit

[marble notch]

Beta magic has better aoe than live

[wise wing]

yes but it's less evenly spread out

since we're going from 3 medium power abils to 2 strong ones

[sand panther]

barrage auto and edge targeting fix

[wise wing]

and 4t is gone from what I can see?

[sand panther]

if they're clustered you can literally just AA and steamroll groups

[marble notch]

New autos are better aoe than 4t by a lot

[sand panther]

and now big mobs will create huge AOE zones

[cinder lily]

Been thinking. Ranged and Magic are keeping Tendril abilities, but melee isnt? That alone is bizzare, but theres so much that can be done with these as a quest reward. Such wasted potential to delete them. I propose a category of abilities that cost 0 adrenaline, but instead cost health. Leaning into the themes of the spells they are named from:

• Melee: Blood: while active heals the player equal to the damage taken each time they hit the target. Can last like 6s or something if it hits 5 times every 1.2s. So if it damages you for the same 27% of 100-120% it does in live, thats the value it would heal you each hit. Obviously works with mws too. But gives you a window to rapid hit and gain a bunch back.
• Magic: Smoke: Same channel, but applies Smoke Cloud debuff for 60s. then delete Smoke cloud as a spell. Solves the "smoke every fight" problem tbh. Could apply it at the end so swapping to magic for a 1gcd smoke isnt the new "use smoke." Sorta wish vuln wasn't a thing either. No reason to ever not do it. Or repurpose the smoke cloud spell to something else so that quest still gives all 4 elements too.
• Ranged: Shadow: to match Range's identity of multihit, I propose it goes from 1 massive hit, to 1 large hit followed by 3 smaller hits. This debuffs the target to deal less damage for a period. Helps ranged sustain since it cuts healing for split soul and works with Bolg well.
• Necro: Ice: not too fussed about how it hits, but it can stun and bind the target giving necro an on command stun rather than relying on soul stacks or omniguard. It could do something else, but thats on theme for ice. Feel free to propose something else?

All could have a 45s cd like they do now.

Idk, let me know what you think.

[languid glen]

i believe that is where multiplicative instead of additive debuff stacking comes into the formula.

but i think it is best started off at the lower levels, and progressively stronger (or more options) at the higher levels

right now, most of the values are static instead of dynamic, which is probably why we end up with the example of being too weak or too strong

conceptually, i still strongly think there should be these attributes for combat to utilise (and rely on), instead of outright damage

for example, instead of basic attacks doing 90-110 damage, how about it deals 90-95 damage, but applies a stacking debuff on target that increases damage received by 1% for up to 20 stacks?

this way, damage isn't just frontloaded all at once (as nice as we all want), but rather, we have to plan (and i guess optimise) how it is dealt.

my suggestion long ago for attack speed and gcd, would require the implementation be applied to abilities as well

meaning, a more dynamic formula needs to be introduced for abilities that can run on 2t-gcd

having basic attacks run on 2t-gcd while abilities are stuck on 3t-gcd would feel off

yet 2t-gcd for abilities may seem too fast also

just read your post

for 2h-melee vs dw-melee, i'd like to think of them as:

1. 2h-melee is good on its own versus single target with the debuffs, but dw-melee will always be better
2. however, 2h-melee will surpass dw-melee due to its debuffs when it comes into teamplay, as its debuffs are strong enough that others can benefit from it

this allows 2h-melee to still be a very viable choice in teamplays, which would help with the problem currently where we only end up with 5 necro/mages in every group encounter

in a similar fashion (which terribly failed) would be like ruby aurora versus exsan/incite fear spells

ruby aurora buffs the damage of other players, whereas exsan/incite fear are more self-buff and aoe-spells that are strong

so, ruby aurora would suck if you're using it alone, but in teamplays, it should exceed exsan/incite fear in overall dps of the group

sadly, it is currently so weak that it doesn't shine anywhere (which i guess is a common problem with group-buff based abilities and spells)

[hollow hill]

Ruby aurora is used in groups, although mostly as a 4taa spell :>

[cinder lily]

Right. You'd need a team big enough to have ruby do more than your own stronger spell. But the goal of that post wasn't even to make one or the other better. I mean people give up 10% or more damage to use cryptbloom because its so much easier. Unless im way off base in joe I envision those changes would be used on the top end, they still would both be used.

[hollow hill]

Don't get the notion of wanting tendrils to heal you, the tradeoff of hp vs. dmg is what made them interesting imo.
Locking sc behind tendrils sounds anti-fun, you want the sc at the start of a fight not in the midst of it, nor do you wanna always fully channel a tendril.
Necro is the style with the most, the longest and the easiest accessible stuns, I don't think it needs yet another.

[cinder lily]

Its more that its blood themed, melee could use more sustain, and this would be a unique and interactive way to fulfill both.

Yup, you want sc at the start, but its a similar dilemma ezk puts melee in. You want to spec asap to get the buffs, but you also need to manage vestments effects and bleed a channel. But I dont see anyone complaining about that. At least not much. You could do the runic > sonic > sun > conc > tsunami > fsoa > conc > asphyx > Tendril > etc. Yup, you miss the first conc and asyphyx under it, but for the rest of ths fight you have it.

Fair enough on necro. Theres a lot that can be done with it. Just went with stun because its ice themed. Could just root for a longer period and not stun like barrage. But thats largely not applicable.

[hollow hill]

At least ezk is one and done, but it still feels very bad if melee camping imo

Forcing full channels/certain abilities in general feels really bad, reduces your flexibility/options.

Also you kinda don't wanna tendril right after asphyx, will give you bad cds / suboptimal adre management / can't really abuse lucky temporal anomaly procs

[cinder lily]

Sure. They could just make sc only work with magic and either leave tendies as is or give it some smoke like effect which i believe is reducing accuracy.

Thats another solution to the sc issue with all styles.

[languid glen]

i think if exsan can be revamped, the same can be done for the original ancients

i'd personally prefer if the single-target ones had more debuff power than the AOE ones, for the same reasoning that single-target should be better than AOE in single-target circumstances, and AOE in aoe-circumstances

spell cost alone isn't a major blocker past a certain point

[median citrus]

I could get down with all of this. Since ig they can't fix bleeds it be best to just get rid of them

Is meteor strike not aoe in the beta? If it isn't this makes me sadge. Make it aoe again.

Something i'd also like to see if just making zerk last longer and removing the need to lower it's cooldown via g flurry. I'd like the focus of melee to be on working towards big hits, not on reducing zerks cooldown

[hollow hill]

zerk cooldown is a limiting factor for melee in many places though

Like longer zerk isn't that much of use if you already used your cooldowns

[languid glen]

i personally think zerk in its design is good. you essentially trade off defense for offense.

without getting into the numbers, i'd prefer that zerk becomes a playstyle choice.

meaning, it becomes like how we have animate dead, temporal anomaly.

one is clearly a defensive-style gameplay, the other an offensive one.

and i think melee should try to move into that without heavily relying on zerk as an ability to determine that.

reason is because there isn't a contender to zerk at the moment (except zgs..?), and it seems to primarily determine whether you can do any meaningful damage for melee - which i think is boring for most cases?

but if it becomes an "innate" playstyle, you're locked in to it, and melee's weapon variety gives you room for more sub-styles

i.e. if zerk became like how animate dead works, and it provides +50% damage dealt and taken, that means you could also go bleed-style with abyssal scourge or lengs that are more frontloaded instead, without bleed style feeling like it sucks in damage output

wild idea, but i'd like to see how that works in beta if possible

[zinc carbon]

The thing with that is again that it needs a vision, will the defensive sub-style abilities actually be fun to use?

[zinc carbon]

I like the range one ngl. You time tendrils at 3 bolg stacks but it feels bad to end up at 0 stacks even with 4 stack cap. So if the initial hit is 30k with tendrils and the tendrils shadow damage the boss further, doing 1 shadow hit or 3 shadow hits, then that could line up bolg for gloom bow or snap gloom

So that would be 2 hits or 4 hits overall

[median citrus]

I think it could work and feel right if all the other styles worked differently too. However, all combat styles seem to revolve around ultimate ability powerups, sunshine, ds, living death, berserk.

Having melee be the only style where the ultimate powerup is a choice would feel weird. I think instinctively players would use zerk in most situations as that be what they're used to.

This is notable when zerk just offers such a high increase in dps, it's just too tempting to not use berserk. It's why ppl still use it and do their best to use it inspite of the 50% damage increase. Double damage is just too much of a good buff for an aspect imo. Notably when you can mix and match aspects with the ultimate powerup abilities. Ex. you can use sunshine with temporal anomaly or darkness simultaneously.

At the end of the day melee would still need some sort of power up ultimate ability like the other styles. If it isn't zerk then it likely have to be something else. Zerk is already there so imo it should prob just be that.

What I would prefer is if zerk was just extended. And Zgs could take it's place back at being what players would use when zerk was on cooldown

[languid glen]

i think it feels weird only because we're used to it. i'd like to challenge us to detract from what is, into what if?

[upbeat field]

This. Too many people are whining that "rs3 is dead" because "what is" is being turned upsode down in a few areas

4taa is dead, ability stalling is changed, the styles are all cleaner and bridding in its current form is dead

[median citrus]

Ig it could work, but like I said, I think at the end of the day people would still use the ultimate powerup to increase their dps. If this is the buff that decreases your defence players will choose it and it will become the meta. Darkness and animate dead have their place as defensive aspects. However in dps situations ofc temporal anomaly is chosen. I'm not sure if the frustration would be eliminated, when players are still taking massive damage for the best dps. This is ofc frustrating to melee due to it's lack of range.

[upbeat field]

Current form of zerk feels much better to play under at least

[median citrus]

I actually suggested that if str applies to all combat styles that berserk be an ability that applies to all combat styles. So you could use berserk with magic, ranged, and necro too. However you'd only do double damage if you're within 1 tile of your opponent. Melee could get Juna's fury from world wakes which is just ss and ds for melee. Then all styles could choose between 2 ultimate buffs. So we've actually kinda had the same idea

[upbeat field]

What youve suggested amounts to bridding without a gear swap basically

Which im not totally against just seems an oddd direction to move in

Unless u suggest they share cd's?

[median citrus]

Yeah, in my mind they did, but ig they don't have to...

[upbeat field]

Thats certainly one way to facilitate the bridding problem

[median citrus]

Yeah, the Jagex team should do this and free melee from being the only style to train an extra skill too. Tbh, never really thought about str having the potential to be a hybrid/brid style

[cinder lily]

It would be 1 big hit and 3 smaller hits, which should place you at the same stack count you began with under the spec buff. But then again, I dont use ranged so I'm not sure exactly how it operates.

[zinc carbon]

I would prefer 1 shadow hit I think, personally I find myself having too much adrenaline with range already XD

When trying to use like an okay rotation, will be able to get a video up soon today or tomorrow

Mage adreanline definitely too high

shadow tendrils first hit 30k and shadow hit 100

[zinc carbon]

https://streamable.com/0wks7x

Mkay, this is really consistent with range

Relentless proc wasn't needed there, using grim not ful this time

[flat rampart]

Shit. This looks fun as hell tbh.

Now I'm excited

[zinc carbon]

Yee, it lines up really well

[zinc carbon]

Actually I could've gotten sgb in dracolich infusion there, might swap that around

[tranquil beacon]

smoke cloud cannot be removed, just make it an autospell

[fierce phoenix]

Make it an aspect

Cloak yourself in smoke, obfuscating your attack targets, increasing crit chance

[deft blade]

i love how most yt videos ive watched regarding combat rework states that the update is doing whats intended and i quote "make combat easier and piss off high end pvmers"

i have been giving it a try these past few days and i gota sday range and mage really hit the sweet spot

but meele

big off

meteor needs a little more work

[narrow spire]

yea it feels really weird to be so reliant on the one ability to get adren and make everything work.

[deft blade]

i understand one of the big issues jagex has is the massive abuse of the dagger spec

there has to be anotehr way of stopping the abuse of the dagger and making meteor work better

[median citrus]

I like this

[deft blade]

for how meele works with zerk giving up defensive for offensive

i feel meele should be more powerful that it is rn

mage and range dont have defensive offsets for the offensive gain

by that same logic meele shouldnt but since it does it should have a bit more power

dont yall think?

[raven junco]

they do have defensive offsets though?

you can't move much

which means it's harder to deal with mechanics and you can't kite

(most end game bosses aren't kitable anymore, but plenty of the early/mid game ones are)

[deft blade]

7x7 gives u plenty of room to move and avboid mechs

[raven junco]

it CAN

[royal shale]

Nakatra and Amascut have the floor squares mechanic. Most of them give at least free square per 4-tile corner, so if you place your sun/swiftness/zgs on the intersection of 4 grids you have at least one area, but for example this one there's a chance you're forced to leave your ultimate if you place it on one of the blocked intersections.

[deft blade]

well with mage and range u can place ur sun/swift on the ouuter rim of the outter floor mechanics

[royal shale]

This one too if you're 1/4 unlucky

[deft blade]

effectively removing th ened to leave ur sunshine

for amas

and for nakatra if u do the corner dive ur off sunshine what 2 ticks?

so this isnt really a concern

the mechanic is avoided with a single step to side or surge away and back within that same tick

[royal shale]

Or just have a no-position ultimate to avoid the headache for non-tick-perfect players...

Even if it's not "efficient"

[deft blade]

i get your point but thats really no concern even for non tick perfect player

which by the way i am not

you gota learn the mechanics nevertheless

tick or non tick perfect

once you learn the mechanics you work around them

what im saying tho is meele in itself

true the zerk buff folloows you arouind anywere you go

without having to focus on going back yo wherre u set up ur sun/swift

but at the same time in bosses such as amas being in meele distance makes u prone to extra range hits

were as sun/swift removed the need to focus on the range hits since ur far away distance

so itg nulifies the off set of non defensives for swift/sun

on this specific boss of course

by any chance anyone has a list of items being removed from game?

cant seem to find it anywere

[flat rampart]

https://runescape.wiki/w/2025_microtransactions_proposal Wiki has it in easy readable form

[upper steppe]

For a noob like me do you guys think these changes help me dive into proper rs3 pvm without feeling so overwhelmed?

Backstory: I’ve completed all pvm challenges on osrs and I have a 2600 total rs3 account mainly from using daily th keys for years and afking. I don’t really know anything about pvm beyond revo and every time I’ve read about switching to manual ability casting I feel like I’m reading a different language lol.

[median citrus]

Well you'd be the best one to answer that question! I'd play the beta if you haven't already. To answer your question, I believe every style has been made easier to understand and does better damage in easier ways. So yes, I would think so

[median citrus]

https://secure.runescape.com/m=news/combat-styles-improvements---beta-update-2 Link to beta should be all the way at the bottom here

[zinc carbon]

There were some cool ideas from pvme. Someone thought range should have an ability that gave an rng amount of hits beteen 1 and 4. This would fix one of my issues with range that there isn't something to mess up your bolg stacks so that you would have to focus on aligning them, something for the sweats to do

They thought that should be shadows but not sure about that, also I like shadows costing adren

And I think this is really good

I think a lengthy channel as a rotational anchor is a good idea

[flat rampart]

https://tenor.com/view/olijf-math-dumb-cat-gif-6516129560880270604

BOLG rotation scheming

[zinc carbon]

That's basically me theorycrafting beta rotations XD I wish I could do that more often

[fierce phoenix]

if only we had some kind of element aligned with burning, that'd make for a flavorful tie-in

https://tenor.com/view/this-is-fine-gif-25423496

coffee magic, would work well for burn builds

[lament drum]

Posted on reddit, but copying here for more hope of it being seen:l nt Jagex:

I really believe the base Adrenaline cost of Tsunami should be changed to 40% to align with Imbue Shadows and Meteor Strike, I know we have incite fear, but without Incite Fear Tsunami is a trap ability and absolutely not worth using, the Incite Fear effect should be re-worked (maybe decreased cooldown or increased damage, please throw in suggestions). My reasoning:

1. At 100% Adrenaline cost, without a full set of crit boosting gear (possibly even with it), the adrenaline boost effect is not going to make up the adrenaline cost

2. The damage done by Tsunami (225 - 275) is lower than that done by a full 8 hits of magma tempest (280 - 360) which costs 0 adrenaline, less damage than a runic charged dragon breath (260 - 310) which also costs 0 adrenaline, therefore it's not worth using for the damage alone

3. Tsunami is unlocked at lvl 90, but incite fear is not unlocked until 98 and also requires a bunch of questing

4. It locks us into the Ancient spellbook, I would love to make more use of something situational like Crumble Undead (e.g. at Vorkath), but using the normal spellbook alllready locks us out of so many things like smoke cloud, animate dead, disruption shield, prism of restoration, loosing the adrenaline effect on Tsunami is a final nail in the coffin of using the normal spellbook

5. It is inconsistent with the other styles which i think would be confusing / off-putting for someone new

In summary, the 40% adrenaline cost of Tsunami being tied to incite fear makes the ability a major trap until you: have a bunch of extra levels, do a bunch of quests and have a full set of crit boosting gear. It also locks you into the Ancient Spellbook for a decent sunshine rotation. As the purpose of the Combat updates is to improve the base kit of the styles, I feel like this needs to be addressed.

[zinc carbon]

Also more thoughts on this. This channel takes a decent chunk of time with range and mage while doing something that benefits the build (aspyx doing even more hits with Tumeken and range playing around Gales). I wouldn't want the burns of mage to be channel locked, like I think gconc and tendrils should only interact with crits but a channel that is around the rotation length of rapid fire but for burns could be perfect

[zinc carbon]

Also this would be a single ability, so most of the rotation would adapt to that ability :p

Like only 1 random multi hit ability

[cinder lily]

A lot of this I agree with, but you'll still be ancient locked due to exsang and even if it wasn't that, the other spells offer utility. Also smoke cloud. But... I think theres always been room for standard spells to gain effects too.

[median citrus]

support this too

[royal shale]

For high enrage group bosses at anywhere but Amascut, you're going to be on Ancients for Barricade or Devotion Intercept...

not Amascut because 2000% or above specifically prevents Intercept, it's that strong

[hollow hill]

Without the autocast spells, you could also say that about lunars, you just sbs between the two

Fwiw shield dome + prism of salvation are neat to have at amascut too

[royal shale]

I would say being on ancients is better even when you're not using magic for offense, as you need to cast Intercept up to 4 times very rapidly

Being on lunars is 4 extra sbs keybinds during that sequence

[hollow hill]

Realistically, Zamorak is the only boss you do this at ^^

[upbeat field]

Nah ive seen how the amascut discord performs. My main has that shit on quickbind lmao

[hollow hill]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/932324423485255760.webp?size=44

Forgot that you can even cept there at lower enrages

[cinder lily]

Or if you're solo and not on magic lunar is usually better. Ds & veng with bp on smoke. But its actually a pain in the ass and i usually stay on ancient because i swap between melee and magic. So ill start telos on magic and be on lunar which is fuckin annoying.

But... and hear me out... what if we didnt have sbs at all. We had all them at once. If they want to keep costs balanced, attuned to a book and it costs normal. Then casts of other books costs more runes plus a law rune or something.

[hollow hill]

Make a sbs + cast one button instead of two 👍

[deft blade]

all 3 magic books in one is a horrible idea

too op

[hollow hill]

You more or less have that already tho

[elder musk]

I'd be happy if I could access normal magic teleports from the ancient book since the main normal magic spells I'd want I can use spellbook swap for (temporal anomaly and maybe vuln)

Particularly with 120 construction probably meaning I'd want to visit my POH more and I don't think teleport spells would be OP since they consume runes

[graceful lava]

Honestly. Being able to put a spell from another book on your bar and letting to cast smoothly with an additonal rune cost, eg: one spellbook swap, wouldent be a bad idea.

[wise wing]

ngl i prefer the time when we didn't have any form of access to other spellbooks

[graceful lava]

People would be very unhappy if spellbook swap was removed. So many people use it

[wise wing]

it actually encouraged you to make decisions and tradeoffs

now we can just use everything on top of everything

insane powercreep and more apm all the while using less brain

[sand panther]

okay, add more autocast spells that matter to the other books and add spellbook swap to normals. Then you can keep certain single cast utility things, but have book-locked important spells that are your equipped spells

[wise wing]

but if we aren't going to remove sbs, i agree that we should just be able to use everything in a single book in the first place

inconvenience for literally no reason

[graceful lava]

Sometimes a mild inconvenience is needed to keep things in check.
Tho sometimes its added in places where it shouldent

I think sbs is in a good spot for its function

[wise wing]

except in sbs's case, it doens't make anything more difficult in any way

[wise wing]

varrok lodestone throwing you down in the front gate instead of in ge or varrok square would be a good example of this

sbs i personally think not

[hollow hill]

decisions and tradeoffs
If vulning normals, else just ancients/lunars 🤷‍♀️

[graceful lava]

Yeah. its just a slighly added cost for being able to use spells from another bok

[sand panther]

actually nvm, scratch that. You can do manual individual casts still

[wise wing]

remember back in telos days

[hollow hill]

Arcane capacitor my beloved 😭

[wise wing]

where people had to make a decision on which enrage to switch to ancients

normal allowed for faster kills which arguably made the kills smoother in some way

but ancients allowed you to tackle the actual mechanics better and left room for more errors which enabled smoother kills in another aspect

so you'd use normals for as high as you can, and switch to ancients whenever you began to feel uncomfortable

[elder musk]

Why wouldn't you just use Ancients the whole time?

[wise wing]

because you wouldn't be able to vuln

[hollow hill]

Vuln was normals only

[wise wing]

sbs was not a thing back then

[hollow hill]

was before vuln bombs were a thing

[wise wing]

nor were vuln bombs

[elder musk]

Yes it was?

[minor sluice]

vuln spell before vuln bomb and sbs

[elder musk]

Spellbook swap was before Telos

[hollow hill]

Not on ancients

[elder musk]

Yes on ancients

[wise wing]

i guess i should correct myself

[elder musk]

2007 on Lunar, 2015 on Ancients, Telos was 2016

[wise wing]

as in before the direct spellbook switching & people discovering about it became a thing

[hollow hill]

Oh you're right

[wise wing]

yes sbs was a thing on telos release, but it wasn't widely used

[hollow hill]

I guess that was the old one which made you get a pop-up window you had to select the book from

[wise wing]

so you get the idea of the arguement

[hollow hill]

Making it horrible to use mid combat

[wise wing]

yeah

[wise wing]

.

we used to have this

now we don't

[hollow hill]

Now is better :>

[wise wing]

less brain input and just more finger input

better in qol

[hollow hill]

It's not qol

[wise wing]

but some of that goes against the spirit of eoc

[hollow hill]

It's a buff

[wise wing]

eoc is all about actually putting thinking into every moment of combat

instead we're stuffing a 0.6s tick systemed game with apmfest that it was not conceived to handle

[hollow hill]

I don't think it's any "brain input", it's a simple yes/no and it feeling like you get punished if you cannot handle anymore on normals

[wise wing]

well sbs is the simplest form of that

but that was my rant on more of the general state of combat as it is rn

[hollow hill]

I wouldn't call rs combat that deep 👀

[wise wing]

exactly that's the issue lol

combat is doing sky high apms but doesn't actually have much mechanical depth

which is stupid

[hollow hill]

I'd say for most things in game you don't really need much apm

[wise wing]

at least for the high end stuff anyways

[hollow hill]

Even those

Except maybe swapping between brid gear (ingame macros please 🙏 )

[wise wing]

if something requires 300 apm i'm fine by that so long as it requires that much thinking per minute

but current rs doesn't require as much thinking as it does on the physical input side

[raven junco]

isn't the combat that's like "crazy apm" is like... doing absolute BiS Ranged with seven eof switches and four different ammo types?

[wise wing]

the definition of crazy apm would vary by person

[raven junco]

and like, most of the crazy APM is getting you, like, ~10% more dpm if that?

[wise wing]

but at least when we speak for the "average rs player", the current apm at the endgame does seem a bit much

esp for a game with such a long tick

remember the "do gstaff spec without losing aftershock stack" thing

that's the kind of issues you run into when you try to make a game do higher apm than it was conceived

[hollow hill]

I'd say that's more apm than the current endgame for melee/mage 👀

[wise wing]

it's also a lot of finding your loophole around codes

[tribal rapids]

How do people feel about the basic attack gcd thing? I like it on paper but it feels like the type of thing they could move to be a (greater) death swift effect which would then affect all abils for duration instead of just aa

[royal shale]

That sounds ridiculously overtuned, 50% more damage and 50% more abilities per timeframe is more than 250% damage due to fitting more stuff within timed buffs like post-rapidfire crit buff.

[tribal rapids]

With those numbers yes. What about as an effect at all? I'm interested in the concepts or designs. Numbers can come later

[tulip belfry]

Yes and no, I think the changes they are proposing will get a lot of people that are unfamiliar with combat, outside of necromancy, a try. That being said, it will be very effective for kills lasting under 37 seconds. Anything past that that requires a lot of movement/sustainability, you'll find them severely lacking. Ranged is by far the most put together and sustainable style of the 3. If the proposed changes stay you'll basically be style locked between necro and range as the only endgame encounter styles. The proposed updates are basically stripping mage and melee down to an extremely basic and single high damage rotation then build play style and calling it improvement. It's new and most people don't really do endgame pvm, or if they do most of them use necro. After the first few attempts at trying a different style most people will just go back to necro due to the unsustainability of mage/melee

[flat rampart]

I don't think this is PvME's consensus on Mage at all.

[tulip belfry]

i dont follow pvme discord or anything, do you have a screenshot of their recommended uses for it?

[valid kelp]

please, return blood reaver to meta 😩

[cinder lily]

Is there even a reason not to natty every other zerk now? Just confirmed this, but you can:
Meteor > natty +apot > divert zerk > barge > ezk > assault > fury > OP > claw/dagger spec constantly until natty wears off with 1 cane in there to help rebuild. Should do around 300k with claws or 315k with dagger and theres still ~10s left on zerk.

[viscid horizon]

Does Imbue: Gales want to be inside Swiftness or out?

I thought Natty didn't work with Meteor atm?

[zinc carbon]

It's better to prepare with annihilation tbh

[viscid horizon]

Annihilation the damage spec from Wildy 2h?

[zinc carbon]

I think it's a self cast

[viscid horizon]

Yeah, but the one that builds up damage per hit? Ala Revenge but offensive?

[zinc carbon]

Yup, goes really well with claws

[viscid horizon]

Huh. Interesting.

[narrow spire]

Arma god sword spec works well too. Was hitting 350k with robes

I was dropping 3-4 arma specs after rotating. G fury into meteor, adaptive strike, zerk, assault, chaos roar+overpower, hurricane, g fury pulverize, adaptive strike, then arma specs back to back to back

Tbh I kinda hated it X/ - there’s absolutely no variety or build up. It does make the combo easy, but id rather see a bit more nuance.

IMO, the best route for melee would be consistent damage with a 100k spike for the burst for that final push through. Either to end the fight or phase.

[zinc carbon]

Maintenance in both beta and main game? Hmm was hoping to stay in beta XD

[zinc carbon]

Omg I got a rootling skip and I wasn't even looking at the screen

[zinc carbon]

https://streamable.com/j7cdc5

Ful book is doing 80k damage, so a litttle bit rng

If I just had 3 more adrenaline, I could snap dbow instead of piercing dbow XD Would be huge

In terms of damage

Actually I could do gloom bow tendrils maybe

60k off without ful with tendrils (could potentially stack Gales too?)

[cinder lily]

Ags is ok inside zgs, but inside zerk hits the cap so claws/dagger are better.

You would also be better using chaos roar into something like claws than OP as it adds more damage. You get about 30k extra damage from claws where using into OP adds about 6k. For 2nd zerk roar into ezk adds the most. I think at least. Just checked the analysis and its usually accurate. On live roar into dagger or claws is a tad better it seems. Obviously beta values are different, but still should be it. Especially with roar being 1.75 rather 2 roar into ezk will probably add more damage. Ill have to check the beta later.

[hollow hill]

On live roar into dagger or claws is a tad better it seems
Roar into ezk is better unless you got dbaxe effect running

[hollow hill]

Dagger also better than ags outside zerk

[zinc carbon]

Unless you got dbaxe + annihilation effect running now XD

[cinder lily]

Oh duh, thats what was off. Had dba checked. I thought it was a tad high on some things. I was running stuff for the first zerk. Thanks. I knew there was a reason I was confident it was ezk.

[cinder lily]

Right, but its also like sub 10m and dagger is 600+m. Its not bad in zgs is all i was getting at. Definitely worse specs. Its also good after fury. Unless the base damage bump makes it cap too hard.

[raven junco]

wait, which dagger?

[royal shale]

Varanus's Mercy (dclaws v2)

[raven junco]

that's 230ish mil right now according to wiki?

(that is still more than my entire cash stack but not as much as 600 mil lol)

[signal helm]

ge price inaccurate

[raven junco]

huh

that off huh?

welp

guess that sort of thing is why GE improvements are on the roadmap

[cinder lily]

GE prices can only adjust by a certain percent of the mid each adjustment. *(I think, dont quote me)*So it takes ages for prices to find their equilibrium on there when they are off that much. Its something that hopefully a GE rework will solve. If you could see prior trades it would go a long ways. Or even if you cant, if enough trades are far off it could have a contingency mechanism to adjust it to a new average if like 20 trades are between 600‐700m and the GE mid is 200m, adjust it to the average of thsoe trades. Etc.

But afaik Varanus's is about 600-650m atm. Its effectively claws, but like 10-15% better. But claws are like a mil at most i think and still very good.

Unfortunately ive got like 250-300m and haven't even played the live version of the game is over a week. So im not even making progress. Lol. Thats why I want them to just put it in the melee weapon shop in the beta.

Or i just need to go on the live version and grind it out. Or i can do the bad idea and find gear I rarely use and pawn it.

[cinder lily]

Another set of items way off are components to the enchantments made from slivers from ed4. Its hard to gage which to make for profit due to this. Don't get to often, but I notice it every time. Lol.

[fierce phoenix]

Would be nice if those slivers were transmutable

[cinder lily]

True. Or made generic. Why do we have 3?

[fierce phoenix]

One for each combat style at the time

Could be nice if we forged some kinda darklight enhancement or off-hand / defender with em

Or pull a sunspear, and stick it on a pole

[cinder lily]

I get theres one for each style, but why? Other than there being 3 styles, seems odd in hindsight. Why not just have slivers of power that craft all of them? Seems like not only less coding, but its more simple and more player friendly.

[royal shale]

But that's bad luck mitigation compared to having 3 separate sets, and devs hate that /s

[flat rampart]

Would tank the value/price of enchantments because i would make them all 3x easier to get.

[elder musk]

It'd also increase demand by 3x since you'd need that specific one for them all now?

[cinder lily]

It'd just normalize the prices across all of them beyond the secondary comps. So instead of the magic ones being over 100m and the nelee ones being dirt cheap, they'd all be closer to like 60m.

I'm aure theres some nuance benefit to having them partitioned. But seems like itd be better foe mains and irons if they were the same. But I didnt mean to start a discussion on those in this channel. This is supposed to be beta stuff.

[shrewd oriole]

Not a drops complaint thread but while were on topic once ge updates go live there should be a decrease in merching / blind buying and selling. That being said most prices should be more realistic. And once that goes live people will have a better understanding of where the good moneymakers are and focus there more fixing the supply / demand side as well.

[cinder lily]

Alos true. Transparency should help highlight pain points on demand.

[upbeat field]

never forget the crystal siphon era of the ge

[shrewd oriole]

I hope we get another beta update this week with the updates theyve been building on based on the feedback. I think it would be best to keep the clarity going as this will likely be the last combat update for a long time, and the balancing has some mixed feedback so far.

[flat rampart]

On PvME JMods said this is likely for Thursday or Friday

Not guarenteed, but likely

[coarse mortar]

Is there actually an official place to leave feedback?
Ik that sounds silly in a feedback thread But it's not like a little post
It'll be quite long so is there a place for that?

[flat rampart]

Either the subreddit or https://discord.com/channels/303835144073248770/1019643494429642872

[flat rampart]

Oh sorry; this is for combat

[flat rampart]

https://discord.com/channels/534508796639182860/1450234970541916385

This PvME form has a slow-mode group for detailed feedback that JMods have reviewed and interacted with that exactly fits what you're asking for

[coarse mortar]

Thank you.

What a surprise though you have to use a subreddit or PvME.

[formal ibex]

you can use the runescape discord, or reddit...

[shrewd oriole]

Seems like theres a lit of threads to post opinions on. Maybe there should be a polling system to mitigate the thread hopping? Lots of things can get lost in 5+ different threads on the same topic

[reef nymph]

RuneScape Feedback

_ _
If you have feedback on this week's update or want to comment on a trending subject, check out #1026505077210480660, #1220351094908125204, or click on one of these threads to jump right into the conversation:

Recent Update Threads:

• #1470427513216962704- For feedback about this week's update- which can be found here.
• #1469301607047889020 - Feedback on the current Combat Beta.
• #1468661819798458409 - Feedback on the Road to Restoration. This blog is about JMods explaining their view on the state of the game, where they believe problems lie, and what needs to be improved.
• #1469384248174710977 - Feedback about the Early Game Rebalance. The blog can be found here.
• #1469384794508099857 - Feedback about the Dailyscape Overhaul. The blog can be found here.

JMod Discussion Threads:

• #1463145884220129310 - Feedback on the recent UI changes!

[sullen cloak]

That command has the feedback threads that are currently open atm

Feedback is also collected in all the threads and is very closely watched

[royal shale]

They may be watching but it would be nice if the Jmods engaged in discussion more often. It seems like the only place I see any devs regularly is design-discussion.

[west pebble]

im pretty sure its on purpose they dont interact in these discussion spaces often

[cinder lily]

Right. They probably want to see our raw thoughts and if they share too much they can sway us.

[west pebble]

Yea, and interacting could have them unintentionally sharing too much or promising too much.

[flat rampart]

They are very interactive with PVME. Probably because as a whole theyre more technically proficient in the specific numbers and interactions of combat.

[royal shale]

Still pretty weird that they’re more active in an affiliate community than the official one 😛

[molten falcon]

Why are they nerfing melee so hard? It was fine just the way it was

[royal shale]

"just fine the way it was" meaning you need a 2b ezk + 600m varanus + 1.2b vestments in order to feel fun

Then the optimal rotation is meteor, zerk, natural, varanus*11

[west pebble]

Just let me use my dragon rider lance and nox scythe man

[flat rampart]

Melee is pretty cracked in the beta actually; it's just very Mercy EoF dependent which feels kinda bad.

[molten falcon]

Do you think after the beta you will do just as much dps or less than what's in the game currently?

[flat rampart]

I think a liiiitle less because crit damage is currently bugged. But also we're missing a few things, like what they're doing with a couple of perks that the current beta makes irrelevant that they said they're going to rework.

But also we're probably getting an updated Beta by the end of the week- so may have a more clear picture soon

[molten falcon]

I'm asking for a friend that has invested a whole ton of GP into the melee combat style

[flat rampart]

I don't think a panic-sell is warranted.

The whole market is going to have a bit of a shock once the update goes live. It's going to take a few patches and for suuure a few weeks for people to understand and roll with some of he changes.

Some people are going to panic and think dps got a huge nerf because they haven't been using the beta and will try to force heir own new rotations without understanding they are going to need to change a few things, but overall the beta really doesn't change end-game dps much and it buffs mid-game dps pretty decently.

[molten falcon]

That's good to hear just wished YouTubers were just as honest with their input with it thank you

[west pebble]

yea, with something like this a shock to the system will definitely happen. But i don't see the higher tier weapons and gear dipping too much if at all. There isn't really much other choice anyways. If we had like 3/4 different tier 95 for each style, the dynamic would change far more

[flat rampart]

I have a feeling there will be an early narrative that "ranged is broken/cracked" and that might result in a bit of a ranged rush.

I don't think it'll be true, but ranged might be the easiest style to see he "ease of access/simplified cycle", which might create a temporary narrative.

But that's just a guess.

[west pebble]

hasn't the thing of "ranged is broken" been the case for a long time now anyways? If anything with the new changes we might see a lot of magic rush again bc of their ease of adrenaline cycling with arcane charge and stuff. Melee might see prices go down in the short term so it might be a better time to buy melee lol

[languid glen]

please be part of the panic-sellers and make the rest of us happier when prices go down 😄

half-jokes aside, you should play with whatever you're comfortable and having fun with, instead of allowing market forces change your perspective of having fun

if by the end of the beta, you think that a particular style is something you'll enjoy more than the other, go ahead and invest in it

and if you're unsure, just wait it out

however, i think it is acknowledged by now why pushing everything to only be unlocked at end game is causing so much of these problems, where players are directly associating what they deem as fun, to be dependent on the cost

[zinc carbon]

I heard they fixed crit damage for this beta specifically

So that rootling skip and consistent 1:15 flight skip I got with range would be same as live I think

[hollow hill]

Putting aside your rot making no sense, natty dagger spam isn't the "optimal" rot at most places? 👀

Although I agree it's not good gameplay

[royal shale]

I don’t use melee so the simplicity of the rotation is an exaggeration, but the impression I get from live game clips is stack buffs, roar EZK, spam as many varanus specs (maybe throw in an off style GRico) before your berserk runs out.

[hollow hill]

Generally speaking you don't really go for the natty mid rotation, only at the start of a kill/during downtime, with new bosses already cracking down on prebuilds

[cinder lily]

Nah hold onto it. They'll eventually accidentally buff melee too much and make it the strongest. Might be in 15 years, but hold the line. Got all the bis melee including genesis shards, except Varanus's which im close to. Eventually it'll have time to shine. Probably only for a week before they panic nerf it. 🥲

[cinder lily]

Im experimenting with Natty every other zerk atm utilizing renewal on the others. Almost like a replacement for limitless in long form melee camp. Its undoubtedly good if you have down time, but even if you dont it might be worth it inside meteor since it compounds with the basic 1.5x for 3x. So adaptive gives 36-39. That being most the cost of a claw/dagger spec is kinda a big deal.

[elder musk]

Has there been any beta news this week?

[cinder lily]

I saw Sponge say likely no update this evening, but probably tomorrow morning.

[zinc carbon]

Said tomorrow twice, so 100% chance tomorrow probs?

[hasty thorn]

Is it correct that the extra hit of the bolg is not giving an extra 5% adren?

[flat rampart]

Sponge seems to want to kill/reduce pre-building

Which i don't hate. It is mostly just kind of annyoing. Same may call it "skill expression" but it's no really skillful- just feels janky.

But a lot of CB speed kill times would need to be reviewed

[dense root]

I quite like prebuilding in the context of a situation where you have started a fight and a boss will spawn in a few seconds whatever you do

using beneficial stuff in that period seems good/fine

but the predominant aspect of prebuilding I think is dummies outside an instance or where the fight is started at a time of the player's choosing inside the instance

and that's awful

[deep robin]

Sanctum and Fleshhacher both clear buffs upon entering

However with sanctum you get to prebuild how you want inside with bosses

[flat rampart]

I think that's okay. I think WT ability stalling/necro & soul stacks, leng, death spore.... stuff like 30 sec to a min before the fight is just kinda icky.

[dense root]

agreed

there was a period I did a lot of aod a few years ago and your prebuild was like

meteor into sun into stall omni

with a staff spec somewhere

and I would much rather have been hitting the boss

oh there will have been a hydrix grico somewhere in all of that too

on the flipside, "eles or teles" was a catchy saying so it all comes out about even

[prime nova]

Good tbh

A little prep is okay. Setting up your spells, summoning your conjures, preparing your weapons as you enter a boss encounter both makes sense and doesn't feel tedious

Sitting in the instanced retreat using spells on dummies to build up stacks feels shit to do and shouldn't be encouraged or designed around

[hasty thorn]

When I tested it seemed like the BOLG extra hit did not grant a 5% adren under imbue shadows. Is this correct ? Is it supposed to not give adren ? And if so, might it not be Better if it does?

[pale scarab]

gaining adrenaline from abilities doesn't seem to be the direction they're going with half this stuff, they're copy pasting from the necromancy handbook.. the only reason non adren gaining abilities work in necromancy is because there's only 4 abilities anyway.. it doesn't work well with the other styles that need more adrenaline and have far more adrenaline spending abilities in their arsenal. There are many aspects of the combat that i do like, but there also seems to be a lot more convolution added which wasn't the direction they said they were intending to go with all of this. Not all abilities need an effect that buffs the next ability infact this just makes combat stale... do everything in this order or you're basically not going to hit hard and have any fun... same reason most high end pvmers hate necromancy because you press the same 4 buttons at every single boss until boss dead. Its incredibly boring.

[chrome kestrel]

this so much! yes there is so little flexibility with necromancy, which is fine but keep that in it's own lane!

[cinder lily]

Prebuilding imo is completely fine if the Prebuilding takes about the same amount of time it saves. Leaves doors open for unique speed killing stuff. But we are at the stage where theres plenty that save more time than you spend which makes them somethingyou should be doing becausethey arent hard, which feels like a chore. I just wanna fight shit. Even dummy drops in instances to meteor in the beta have this to an extent.

[hasty thorn]

I kinda disagree. Ranged didn’t lose much and gained 2 good abilities. I loved ranged from day 1 but I like it even better in the beta. Imbue shadows takes away the horrible rng and makes for less all or nothing phases.. also caters more to the style hit identity and makes it so you don’t need to use crit build everywhere…
there is still a hell if a lot to choose from when you want to do high dmg ( dark bow deathshot, snipe, your 2 threshold, tendrils, gloom fire, even,..) there is still way more to do than with necro..
magic didn’t really change that much tbh… and in melee I’m not that experienced in… I think they did a hell of a good job making combat good and intresting.. if they ‘fix’ the heal and aoe issue other styles have ( in comparison with necro) it would be just perfect

[chrome finch]

Idk I felt range was better in the very original beta these recent betas definitely didn’t hit my mark for range.
When I was in the beta I needed to hybrid to make up the difference.

Where as solo range zammy around 1-2k in live is decent and in the beta definitely doesn’t hit the mark, same with solak. Etc

I’d like to see range be able to stand alone but imo it kind of doesn’t really.

That said magic was kind of fun, and melee is getting there

[hasty thorn]

Oh I did solo zammy and solak in beta and was faster then live game.. and went smoother too.. but you can’t do your old rotations.. if you do your old rotations in the beta it’s just slower you need to adjust

[hasty thorn]

I just hope people give it a chance and don’t rage quite

[amber spire]

ranged feels garbage in the beta

4 gcds without dealing any damage before you start actually doing anything

[zinc carbon]

I still don't get this take

Shadows seems meta to use after rapid fire, gales was 1.8 gcd, does anyone even use ecb at the start of swiftness?

[hasty thorn]

I think ranged is way better. Imbue shadows is way nicer then the rng (and garbage ) incend… only snipe is 4 ticks.. and gales boost way off set the fact it doesn’t die dmg…

[hasty thorn]

Now you easily can in beta , even way better then before, bc swift is free, you pay 40 for shadows and then have 60 left for even.. at the live game you pay 100 for incend and only have 20 left…

[amber spire]

Death swift shadows ecb gales feels horrible to cast every minute

In live game you use death spores and you use both

[hasty thorn]

Use spores in beta too..

Always use spores

I mean sun- basics- nami - staff spec every minute is basically the same ?!

[amber spire]

Incend is better ranged dosnt need a nerf to its aoe either

Nami does damage

Basics also do dmg

[hasty thorn]

I think it’s nice it’s different now.. not the same with all the crit stuff all the time

Ranged felt , for me, way better and stronger in beta.. and less rng

[amber spire]

I don't much care if it's crit or not

Give incend back and make it's effect the multi hit from shadows instead

[hasty thorn]

Personally I don’t mind.. it’s strong and it’s good

[hollow hill]

Spores are horrendous to use without wenspore tho 🥲

(even with it they suck)

[amber spire]

Facts

[hasty thorn]

Just make bolg hit give 5% too

[amber spire]

Bolg hit should give adren too as that is a multi hit

Or constitutes a contribution to multi hitting rather

[zinc carbon]

The thing is still that you don't use these every minute because the cooldowns aren't 1 minute. It wouldn't be back to back

[amber spire]

Oh so you use them more than once a minute?

That actually sounds way worse lmao

I knew gales was like that but do you mean shadows too

What's shadows cd?

[hasty thorn]

1lin

Min

[amber spire]

Oh he just meant gales then

[hasty thorn]

Yes gales is 20.4

Same as rapid

[amber spire]

Right then I'm aware of it

[zinc carbon]

I mean you use swiftness grico bolg gales rapid shadows burst and ecb later

[hasty thorn]

But I just don’t understand why bolg hit does not give adren. Is that overlooked or intentionally

[amber spire]

Yeah bolg.hit should be giving adren

[zinc carbon]

Like it's combo abilities and you give yourself a lot of buffs and each of them feels good to use, so I don't see the issue

[hasty thorn]

Same

[amber spire]

You want to use ecb inside of your ds as well not just after

[hasty thorn]

I wonder if they know that from the bolg

[hasty thorn]

You easily can

[zinc carbon]

But still why though, swiftness doesn't buff ecb damage

[hasty thorn]

It does, it buffs the hit where the heals come from

[amber spire]

It does. indirectly because you hit more

[hasty thorn]

The extra hits just are calculated on soul split heals

[amber spire]

Even if it did not it's still great damage along swift

[zinc carbon]

The split soul hit splat was the same number inside and outside swiftness but it's still boosted?

[amber spire]

The number ecb deals is based off the hit you do

The higher damage you do the higher that hit

[zinc carbon]

But I did higher damage inside swiftness and the number was the same

[amber spire]

You want to ecb in swiftness.

The number caps at like

I forget what it caps actually

But you're hitting that more in swift

[zinc carbon]

But also like, soul split has better results with multi hit right and you aren't necessarily multi hitting more during burst right

[amber spire]

You're not hitting more

You're hitting higher

[zinc carbon]

Hitting higher has worse results pretty sure

[amber spire]

ecb in swiftness

It's not worse results

It's diminishing returns

[zinc carbon]

Right but you're still gonna be using grico outside swiftness, so that's a lot of ecb damage

[amber spire]

And you're going to use it inside ds?

And that is also a lot of ecb damage

This spec doesn't have a cool downnnn just use it in both man

[zinc carbon]

Hmm, I feel like I get better damage per adren with other tools

[amber spire]

Alright I don't care anymore

I need to go to bed

[languid glen]

i think because it is not considered an actual hit.

similar to split soul hits not giving adrenaline as well.

[amber spire]

Tldr smoke ds natty shadows ecb gales feels shit n bad. That is 10 seconds out of my damage dealing ult just getting my buffs up. Nty

[zinc carbon]

Gonna give that rot a test

[hasty thorn]

I get that but it feels like every style has that .. magic too., get everything on then do dmg

[zinc carbon]

You'd have to physcical sgb swap gather 4 spores, grico on boss to get deathspore for that, then do all those prebuild abilities without building any more bolg stacks so that you could bolg on 7 stacks and then grico again or maybe you spend like 30 seconds at wars dummies to get a bolg stack piercing in before the second grico to line up the bolg spec on 7 stacks

Seems kinda long

Those 10 sec might not be worth but probs gonna test

[hasty thorn]

i mean as far as I know the intentions is not to buff the dmg in the end game but make it easier to use and feel smoother.. And range kinda feels smoother, easier to use and I think it might be a bit stronger, but not much

[zinc carbon]

Power wise seems good, we're also trying to work out the feel-good part of the endgame though

Okay, natty ds 30k bolg gales rapid shadows dbow grico gloom actually feels kinda good

Like dspore natty seems good in terms of damage but it's not like you are using the buffs back to back still, so it still feels good

Like, Gales is basically chaos roar and chaos roar doesn't need to do damagengl

[pale scarab]

Do we know if there's a beta update 3 today or they riding this out till release?

[hasty thorn]

i assumed there would be one today, but not sure tho :/

[viscid horizon]

There's going to be news at least. "Tomorrow" which is now today, from PvME, stated by Mod Sponge.

#1450234829106057338 message

[cinder lily]

Not a ranger, but could they just make gales trigger when you DS to alleviate this pressure? Its at least down 1 of the 4 gcd. You'll probably rapid shortly after ds anyway which should extend it right?

Honestly, and again not a ranger so I could be out of touch, but what if ds was a self buff and extended Gales by 2x but didnt have the dot like it does now? Or it extends Gales by 50% then greater ds does 100% as well as the additional duration?

[vagrant fossil]

Hey, is there an update to the beta today?

[cedar mortar]

@ionic dagger sorry, do you know?

[cedar mortar]

ty!

[vagrant fossil]

appreciate it ❤️

[hasty thorn]

been refreshing a lot today haha

[ionic dagger]

[vagrant fossil]

beta updates here !!

[amber spire]

wrong channel

[sullen cloak]

i thought i locked this channel