#MTX Experiment : Double XP With MTX Limitations

3446 messages · Page 4 of 4 (latest)

undone zinc
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I understand some do like doing things the old way but couldn't you just choose to do that youself, nt use proteans or portables? etc.

Just wondering as I do rem the W2 Burthorpe bank trading area before there was a GE.

earnest granite
zealous dagger
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They think that people could just choose not to use them.

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That mindset is a problem really, as why would you want to use an objectively inferior option unless forced to?
As an iron, we dont have that stuff and its great. But if they go core, we probably would and it would actually make the game worse.

rotund trout
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Xprates are already good on all skills for 110. And honestly also for 120s they don't need to be totally free by having even more ridiculous xp rates

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All skills already reach 500k/h without to many boosts

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And most go well above that

undone zinc
# rotund trout Xprates are already good on all skills for 110. And honestly also for 120s they ...

Wasn't what I was saying, XP rates, compared to early days, have had to increase simply becuase of skill expansion past level 99.

I'm saying the old ways are dying, and I don't get why so many seem to want to go back to them, they were slow, and you'd never reach all 110s if exp training rates were the same as in the days before the GE. It took me 72 hours awake on one DXP weekend to get about 8 mill exp.

Is that what people want? Sure sounds like it reading here? It wasn't fun. And if it is, fine, go do it on your own, don't use proteans or portables or whatever, stop trying to take others things away.

zealous dagger
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The game as it was, wssnt fun? Tell that to the larger population of players playing osrs.

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Who.. denied updates for a lot of its history, and vote to avoid rates being buffed for the mostpart.

slate depot
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as far as I'm concerned the economic impact is the biggest issue with mtx

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if someone wants to spend money on bonds and buy xp as fast as possible, who cares

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they'll ruin their own experience, of course, but at that point you can't stop them

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what needs to be fixed are two distinct issues, being the impact on the economy of mtx items (people gaining so much xp in traditionally expensive skills for 'free' has utterly demolished a lot of activities); and the player experience damage caused by MTX

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(b/c of course if you introduce a button into your game saying 'click here to win', 99% of players are going to click it despite the fact that it's fairly plainly going to lessen enjoyment)

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this applies to 'free' MTX stuff just as much if not more than paid stuff, and that's why this experiment was so refreshing - it demonstrated the damage caused by things from free keys, events etc by treating them the same way as things which are paid for

zealous dagger
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The problem is the economic and the gameplay impact, around equally, not jealousy of someone else progressing faster.

slate depot
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yes exactly

zealous dagger
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If the best method is to click a thing and it works for longer and more exp than alternatives, thats horrible for the game

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Like, i really like that i can arch for dung tokens and level a skill i hate like that.

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But the rate is terrible, as it should be.

slate depot
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if it's a common feeling of casual players or new players that they need to catch up, that's something that needs addressing, but you absolutely don't address it by trivialising the core gameplay experience (i.e. by creating serious 'catch-up' systems) - you look at why it's a problem that people aren't caught up and address those problems (in rs3 to my mind the biggest issue which causes feelings of a need to catch up is a serious lack of investment in the early and mid-game)

zealous dagger
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its a common feeling that probably needs to be ignored. its not like rs is that kind of game, it doesnt matter how fast one progresses

gentle python
# undone zinc Wasn't what I was saying, XP rates, compared to early days, have had to increase...

Nah nah nah, proteans are more of the old ways. The old ways of training a lot of skills is just clicking on resource nodes or bank standing. I find it gets tedious and boring, which you seem to agree. Where we disagree is that you just want to make it a bit less tedious by maximizing the xp gains and afkness. I want whole new methods of training skills. I want the og ways still to exist in the game, but I'd rather there be variety that expands on training our skills in a meaningful and rewarding way. And I definitely don't just want the solution to tedium to just be pay money to make it less tedious.

zealous dagger
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yeah, id say thats kind of spot on. we dont want our gameplay devalued by something being obviously better in every way, and new methods that are interesting to come in and encouraged

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its hard to motivate yourself to do soemthing interesting, but effort when you arnt rewarded for it, and just giving more exp than proteans makes the game worse again

glad crystal
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proteans being economically inert is something i see as a big issue too

at least if a casual player buys bonds to sell for gold to then buy skilling supplies, bonds are being supplied to the rest of the playerbase and those bought supplies are being demanded, its all quite good stuff to be honest

buying keys and spinning for proteans doesn't have that at all

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and i suppose in case it wasn't entirely clear, almost any time i say proteans you can include lamps, dummies and any other source of bought direct xp, i'm just keeping it short

elfin pond
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let me ask this question from a trying to understand standpoint: how does someone else dumping their cash on mtx to get to endgame faster affect someone else's gameplay, ignoring proteans and such for a second?

lament summit
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"I had to work for it and he just buys it!"

elfin pond
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more like does that mean your character on RS is destroyed in your eyes? i guess like what happens to you or your character if someone else went mtx i guess is a way of saying it

zealous dagger
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thats just an example.

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but yeah, most people arnt that concerned with how someone else gets to endgame, its that mechanics like this exist to 'skip' or cheapen the experience of the rest of the game (mtx or no), while also very negatively effecting the economy

lament summit
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How do games like WoW deal with account boosts?

zealous dagger
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by having all early game materials effectively useless.

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so they dont really end up with a place in the economy anyways.

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its not ideal.

lament summit
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So one difference is that Runescape has content that requires low level resources. This is notable with stuff like the latest pickaxe / hatchet, etc.

zealous dagger
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correct, its also a different design, wow repeatedly invalidates old stuff with its 'seasonal' style.

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rs does not

hoary belfry
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RS is one of the few MMOs who actually make content for earlier levels of overall progression

hoary belfry
# lament summit How do games like WoW deal with account boosts?

It depends on the game
Ffxiv and wow have different progression with soft and hard seasonal resets
Instead of making say lv40 content for lv40 characters they make easy hard savage heroic mythic ultimate whatever so people of all skill levels and interests at level cap or close to it can participate, idk about wow but every savage raid tier they release it with new crafted gear around which the raids are balanced for so the skiller economy stays flowing
Guild wars 2 lets you skip your character to level 80 but most of your progression is actually from doing stuff like achievements or challenges to get points to invest in to builds and specializations

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The main issue about mtx in rs is the game progression philosophy clashing with free boosts and skips which are not prevalent in other sandbox or theme park mmos

mellow gazelle
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and mind you it'd be less of a problem if Jagex actually delivered on that endgame focused content model, but even when they more regularly released bosses they were bad at advertising them and now that they advertise them they make 1-2 per year

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effectively what happens with these skips is people get their 99s 120s or 200ms then literally just log out

rotund trout
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So true. I hit 5.8 and struggle with finding somethign i want to do now

mellow gazelle
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with little participation in game economy

mellow gazelle
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what gets the best engagement is probably events that shit out exp and bonus exp, something players can get at any time but the game has events where players can get even more, all so they can stop playing the game faster, weird model innit

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Basically Jagex has not only been basically trying to raise the game's turnover rate, they've also been trying to make each player have as little impact on the rest of the game as possible

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that has been their mtx implementation philosophy over the last 12 years

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this "makes sense" if all you care about is making money, speedrunning players into leaving the game is 'justified' if that means you're making more money off of them overall

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if you're not making money off of doing this, it makes absolutely zero sense, that's why making mtx items free is not a solution

rotund trout
full shore
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Just putting my 2 cents in on the general topic, haven't read any other comments.
I hated this. Yes, take away pay-to-win bs, but don't take away my xp boosters and combat dummies and protean items, etc. This was the most worthless dxp ever, and now I have to wait until November to use everything I've saved. "NoW yOu CaN sAvE mOrE" hush yo silly mouth. Idk, everyone gets the same amount of keys and can get keys from dailies if they want to. I don't have other ideas or solutions or if this is even a "good" idea, don't really care, just let me use my items.

rotund trout
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But you can also just use all those items now and still get insane afk xprates from them 🙂

lament summit
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Because you miss out on 100% of the xp (excluding various boosts). That's a significant amount.

rotund trout
lament summit
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Did I say that?

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I prefer to use my resources during times I can actually use up my bxp, thank you.

hoary belfry
lament summit
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There's a reason unstable proteans were introduced.

rotund trout
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Those should have fully replaced normal proteans but instead jagex kept pooping out normal proteans aswell

slate depot
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I feel like most complaints have oriented around having to wait to use them. I wonder if it would just be viable, upon phasing-out, to grant dxp in terms of proteans and dummies at all points after they are formally discontinued

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certainly I wouldn't object

lament summit
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Tbh, the same could be said about regular resources, waiting for dxp before processing the bulk of them to net that extra xp gain.

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At that point, DXP itself is the problem.

rotund trout
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Which is definetly part of my opinion

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Atleast having in be eveyr 3months is to much

lapis cargo
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missing today's news post in recent updates

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Also, finishing the beeslist doesn't give any rewards, I'd expect some nectar at least :/

karmic shoal
full shore
rotund trout
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Craftable and untradable

karmic shoal
rotund trout
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or tradable and nerfed so they are no longer the best xp rates for skills while being afk

karmic shoal
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Xp rates gotta be cut by at least 10%

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Emphasize active training without removing a current afk practice

rotund trout
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imo 10% wouldn't be enough

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kinda depends on the skill how much the xp rates should get hit in this scenario

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Half as effective as the current best active methods or more then enough

karmic shoal
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I agree

zealous dagger
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They are so non interactive though, doubt theres ever a good place for them.

rotund trout
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down to 10% is a bit much in a world where you'd have to first craft the stuff to be able to use

zealous dagger
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Yeah, id count that in the rate.

lament summit
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At that point, use urns?

zealous dagger
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The time taken to craft.

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Wouldnt you be using urns either way?

rotund trout
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But also yeah those should be used already anyways ( and be able to be used with the new craftable things imo if that becomes a thing )

lament summit
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You're butchering xp rates so much they become useless, might as well then delete them.

rotund trout
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It's the convenience cost. Afking should never be more rewarding then active gameplay. And there should be enough of an incentive to make active gameplay worth doing

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And having only a 10% difference is basically nothign

lament summit
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Cut down to 10% more like.

spice lynx
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Proteans really don't fit in the game. I'd say don't give people and new proteans and let them keep what they have.

rotund trout
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Since they have a limited time to play and that playtime can only be mostly afk

lament summit
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That doesn't exactly add up properly. If you use it for 2nd monitoring, aka have it in the background while doing something else, then to afk in that limited time to play sounds weird.

spice lynx
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It is worth exploring to add more afk training methods. Many skills can already be afked without proteans like starbloom crafting and construction at fort.

zealous dagger
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A few loud voices, probably.

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But almost certainly a minority

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Potentially some new players that dont really know what they are talking about.

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Hard to tell for sure though, but the survey should tell jagex that to some degree.

rotund trout
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Large enough amount of players to where it should probably atleast be taken into account that just fully removing afk training methods isn't going to be a good idea

zealous dagger
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Oh, afk training methods shouldnt be removed at all.

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Just proteans.

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Theres ample methods without em

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At least one for every skill

rotund trout
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for some skills proteans are the only decent afk method

zealous dagger
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Like what?

rotund trout
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like runecrafting sure has runespan but that really isn't the greatest afk experience

zealous dagger
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Its more than 30%

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Thats fine.

rotund trout
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I guess you can afk cooking with with arch relic for fishing

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Herblore?

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Can't think of an afk method there

spice lynx
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dream of iaia

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bad xp though

zealous dagger
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Cooking is pretty afk alreadu

rotund trout
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Also not much of a go train now method

zealous dagger
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2min afk as base method?

rotund trout
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Iaia is more like a daily thing

zealous dagger
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Yeah, dream doesnt really count.

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Oh, herblore? It has herb burner. Its effectively free.

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But you need to make overloads anyways, so its not exactly something that needs to be trained. Its inevitable on any serious account.

rotund trout
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Overloads are far from afk though

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And not everyone lives for pvm

zealous dagger
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I didnt say they were. But the exp is incredibly fast.

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The burner is afk though.

rotund trout
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And total memetier xp rates

zealous dagger
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You could also herbicide afk combay.

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Which isnt a terrible rate.

slate depot
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I mean how afk are we looking for

zealous dagger
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Its probably bad if you want any herbs.

slate depot
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souls are afk when it comes to rc

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the new imbuing stuff is afk

zealous dagger
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Yeah, rc has a decent amount.

slate depot
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herblore isn't full afk but it's low effort and is uber-fast

zealous dagger
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Full afk via combat

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Burn em xD

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But yeah, its the second fastest skill. Cant complain really.

slate depot
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if you want full afk, just do an inv of vuln bombs then don't look back for 5 minutes and it's still a reasonable xp/hr rate

main heron
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Generally speaking there's 3 scopes for activity levels balancing for the era it was developed/last rebalanced:

  • GP/Tradables earned

  • EXP earned

  • Unlocks earned (Like perm boosts to exp and such)

  • Stuff that's catered to experience, but:

    • Easy enough to access and stay longer will generally be less exp to more active variants, and generally doesn't give much items unless used for another step later down which is considered as a secondary variable.
      • EG: Some mining nodes, and runespan.
    • Limited in time/quantity is more experience, usually no items until the end of it if at all.
      • EG: Dream of iaia, and some D&Ds like the oyster.
    • More active, usually has more experience overall, but less to no items.
      • EG: The fishing frenzy stuff with higher clicks, or tick-skippable content like teak cutting.

  • Stuff that's catered to the items given, but:

    • Easy enough to access, will often be less experience but focus on the item gaining.
      • EG: Arch relics + materials
    • Limited in time/quantity will usually not give much experience as its processing, but, depends on the items at the ends purpose.
    • EG: smithing burial sets, masterwork items, etc.
    • More active, usually will have more items produced, more experience than afk, but depends on the item.
      • EG: Mass production of convertable items, and Tick-skippable content like legacy methods of fletching darts.

Some things are more catered to experience and rewards together, but generally those balance points to activity:experience:rewards tends to be balanced around different viewpoints.

so, some stuff like proteans are higher experience, but afk, because technically limited/harder to get overall for the time spent you can do other active things with better rates than the occasional freebies it would give. as the cost with it would be more to time to obtain them, or the irl money spent to get any reasonable amount to fully replace skilling from 1-120s.

karmic shoal
karmic shoal
mellow gazelle
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no they don't lmao none of the crap they've tacked onto the invention skill after the fact, including the outfits, actually fit

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you could say they somewhat fit it now since the identity of the invention skill has since been made "the random crap skill"

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the mtx item garbage dump skill

karmic shoal
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Bruh. Dwarven tools are literally invention

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Proteans, exp bombs, cores are an aesthetic that fit with invention

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Magic vials once found in TH would fit perfectly with invention

mellow gazelle
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how on god's green earth does a fucking bomb that magically grants you exp aesthetically fit the idea of invention

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that just further proves the "random crap skill"

karmic shoal
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We craft skilling outfits with invention that grant xp boosts…

mellow gazelle
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and i already said that didn't fit it any way

karmic shoal
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Yet it’s there. So it garners the path for these items too

mellow gazelle
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proteans should be deleted and replaced with sacred clay items tbh

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it's pretty much sacred clay with mtx paint over it

rotund trout
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a portable atleast looks like it could have been an invention item

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without like 50% of the bonuses it gives

karmic shoal
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They all can be. The entire purpose of invention was the creation of items (serving as an item sink) to give certain xp benefits or quality of life.

mellow gazelle
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only if they were changed to actually be thematic to invention as a concept

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and also nerfed

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because again regardless of if they come from money or from gameplay the items themselves are a problem lmao

karmic shoal
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they need to be nerfed and untradeable - I mentioned this before

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Ive also stressed that no matter what alternatives Jagex does for MTX items, they cant have anything that affects XP (bonus XP, lamps, item enhancers, etc...). Anything that alters or boosts gameplay via MTX is faulty af. The bonus xp package alternative is just Squeal of Fortune 1.0. Thats why cosmetics only is the only solution

ornate wharf
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You say that as if most voters in e.g. actual elections make their choice based on deep understanding of all the issues at hand and not based on general vibes, social media echo chambers, bombastic campaigning, etc.

ornate wharf
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You can’t cap the price in the post-free-trade-restoration era. If you forced bonds to trade at 100m but the market price is 150m, all you’ve done is take bonds off the GE like expensive items before coin limit was increased (and made things much harder for IM players).

zealous dagger
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You absolutely can listen, and then form an opinion, which is healthy. But we're not seeing that, just straight up parroting.

undone zinc
# ornate wharf You can’t cap the price in the post-free-trade-restoration era. If you forced bo...

Regarding a bond store to help limit bond price:

A buy limit of one single bond per 3 months being buyable from an in game store, for say 100 million, would help constrain bond prices on GE. Could be a diff price, just my suggestion.

Jagex wouldn't make any IRL money on that bond but it would tend to keep the bond prices in GE at just over 100 million. Bonds would still go up and down on GE based on demand though.

Players would still sell most of the Bonds in game if store was so limited.

This would help with how much bonds cost in game in gold.

More importantly I think many players quit because it is so hard to earn enough for a bond in the 2 weeks of membership a bond gives.

That's why I suggested having a bond give 30 days of membership (so price in bonds is about the same as Premier) and having a very limited bond store.

Also, if the bond prices were kept down a bit players might actually buy more of them. If they want 1 billion GP they would have to buy and sell 9 or 10 bonds with a bond "store". Without a "store" they only need to buy 8 or 9 or just 7 if bond price were 143 mill on GE.

Better for Jagex in the long term (keep players happy)? and most players? A tiny bit worse for rich players buying bonds to sell.

zealous dagger
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its worth noting, along with a lot of your points, that you're not really talking about reality, more about your subjective experience.
we know most people dont use bonds for membership. thats a fact.

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so, most people leaving the game are doing so because they arnt enjoying it, or cant afford it with real money, and dont enjoy farming bonds at all (because thats garbage gameplay)

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both are not enjoying the game, and unrelated to bond prices.

undone zinc
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it's reality for 2 of my 3 accounts, completely bond funded.

zealous dagger
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sure, thats why i said subjective.

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its your experience.

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not the general experience.

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you think this;

More importantly I think many players quit because it is so hard to earn enough for a bond in the 2 weeks of membership a bond gives.

is common because you experience that

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but thats not the case.

undone zinc
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Maybe but how many people quit becuase they can't make the GP price for a bond every two weeks?

A lot that I've known.

zealous dagger
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some people absolutely do.

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and because you do, you're more likely to group with other people that do.

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but again, we know most people dont use bonds for membership

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the game literally couldnt function that way

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it'd be off the back of whales.

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how many people quit because they cant afford the bond? almost none.

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they quit because they dont enjoy the game, or cant justify the cost.

undone zinc
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It would be nice for Jagex to release details on how many bonds are bought and how many of them are used for membership.

zealous dagger
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people bonding accounts as a primary method of playing are a small minority.

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even that isnt going to be accurate

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id argue that most bonded account are alts.

undone zinc
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Alts are paying members too lol.

zealous dagger
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sure, but they arnt quitting because their alts cant be bonded in the next month.

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they are stopping because they arnt enjoying doing so, or enjoy their main more.

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quitting altogether would be because they arnt enjoying either, so they stop paying for their main. if they enjoyed the alt.. they'd pay for the alt instead.

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in either case, neither is because bonds are too epxensive.

undone zinc
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I've seen it both ways, where people get far enough on main and keep main and alts paid and active cause they like the game.

Also know people who keep a main active and just start a bond on alt for an event or to make a specific goal. Everyone I've know like that were very concerned about the bond price in gold.

zealous dagger
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sure, you've seen it both ways, but that doesnt change the fact that you're projecting and assuming that is common, or more common

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yet reality tells you otherwise.

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most people are NOT bonding for membership

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does that mean conversations about bond prices arnt worth having? no. but dont act like its common

undone zinc
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Well let me ask this, since Jagex doesn't release numbers on using bonds for membership how do you know it's not your perception that's wrong?

Are there any figures on that?

zealous dagger
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im sure there is. however, you can ask in general chat rooms what people use for their accounts, and a large majority will say they are subbing and bonding alts.

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especially high level accounts. the people that have played the longest, and play the most.

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then.. you can move to the more obvious. making money for bonds to afford membership is terrible gameplay.

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and takes away from your enjoyment of the game significantly.

undone zinc
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Only if you don't know what your doing.

zealous dagger
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no, thats not really disputable.

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would you rather progress your character, or pay a tax to keep playing?

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noone wants to 'work' to keep their account running.

undone zinc
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I do both becuase I know how to make GP actively and passively.

zealous dagger
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being better at making gp is irrelevant. you are putting money away form your progression to upkeep your account.

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a few people mind find that enjoyable/satisfying./

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but generally, that is not the case. people want to play and have fun

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not work a second job to keep their account going, no matter how many hours that takes.

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its a game, after all.

undone zinc
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I don't useually buy my progress, I do at times, but I prefer to just play.

zealous dagger
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some people have no choice, and i sympathise with that.

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but we can even take proof of this from your statement before.

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of people who's primary method is bonding their account, because they cannot afford to pay, higher cost = quit. why? because making money to upkeep their account isnt fun

undone zinc
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You always have a choice:

You either do skilling things that make you GP (which you can use to buy things that wouldn't). Making super anti-fire to sell to buy overload kits for example.

Or you make a bunch of GP in some way, like bossing, and buy your skilling.

zealous dagger
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lets not debate how to make money, because thats a strawman and completely irrelevant.

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making money to bond your account is objectively less fun. most people do not do that.

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if they did, or it was easy/trivial, everyone would do it. its not trivial, and it is a significant amount of upkeep, so people dont.

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it needs to function like that, or jagex does not profit

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you even suggested that jagex fixed the cost under 40% of current costs ($ per day), and argued that they dont need to make money from it, which is wild. it would be the fastest way to tank the company and the game, lol

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but yeah, this isnt really related to the experiment anymore.

ornate wharf
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I see what you mean when you say it’s not democratic, but by that metric very little is in the context of large populations

zealous dagger
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The proof of its damage is evident with osrs. Its been great and bad at times.

ornate wharf
light hound
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DXP COMPENSATION

  • 12 hours of Double XP (reduced from proposal of 24 hours)
    • This makes the overall time offered more aligned to the hours of disruption in DXP
  • We would run the event from Monday September 8 - Sunday September 14
    • This causes some slight overlap with Need for Mead, but gives more flexibility on time
    • Sunday finish means there's a gap between DXP and Leagues opening on Monday
  • There will be no restrictions on items

Additionally:

We will begin exploring reduced DXP availability in our usual Winter DXP window (early 2026). This could be a reduced amount of time on offer, an alternative event rather than DXP, no event of any kind or other changes (it's a bit too early to commit to exactly how we'll test it, but we will!).

rotund trout
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Lame but w/e. the time wasted on discussing the compensation should have been spend on developing whatever else that's actualyl good for the game

shell obsidian
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At least it didn't become 24 hours

rotund trout
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"We hear all the feedback on stuff" except for the parts where the main complaints are all the free xp

zealous dagger
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Pretty funny lol. But it doesnt matter much if the results the same

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Quell those complaining now, if the data says its in their best interests to remove it (its in ours for sure, but not necessarily theirs), they do that either way

earnest granite
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I wasn't able to reply yesterday, I was just on my way off to work lol

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But yeah, I don't think the "if you don't like it, just ignore it" mindset is particularly helpful here

zealous dagger
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Yeah, not really. It definitely impacts you either way

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Since balance is based on it

spice lynx
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Honestly they don't need to give compensation for a few hours of downtime

mellow gazelle
spice lynx
mellow gazelle
rotund trout
mellow gazelle
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honestly you should be thankful they even asked

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considering this is a customer service issue

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not a game balance issue

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it's not surprising you, as a player, don't care about customer service for players you disagree with

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Jagex doesn't have the same freedom

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but also 12 hours of double exp one time is not going to break the game

shell obsidian
mellow gazelle
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I think some people have just gotten overzealous now that jagex is starting to ask questions and gather feedback

rotund trout
mellow gazelle
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There's opinions and then accusing Jagex of not hearing you because something else (customer service) became more important briefly

karmic shoal
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^ he has a point

rotund trout
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"we hear alot of you saying theres alreayd to many dxp's in a year, So have another one while we think about maybe changing it at some point in the future"

sullen sandal
#

except that isn't what happened

#

people's play time was disrupted because of individuals ddos'ing. they are trying to make players feel whole since there was a bxpw going on.

#

it is apples to apples on this one

#

it would be out of place if they gave this bxpw as a compensation for an outage outside of a bxpw event

karmic shoal
#

I guess the real qualm is between continuation of the experiment versus going back to the status quo. If the experiment was disrupted then these extra 12 hours should have kept the restrictions. Not seeing the reasoning for bringing it back without the restrictions

sullen sandal
#

i think there is just a disconnect about the word 'experiment' in general

light hound
sullen sandal
#

if they needed to gather additional data, they would for sure do it

#

but priority number 1 is providing some sort of compensation to everyone that had their playtime diminished

karmic shoal
#

If that’s the case I can get it. Obviously I’m biased because I think dxp shouldn’t exist in general.

sullen sandal
#

sure. i feel the same way, but my thoughts on the matter aren't what is important in this situation. the important part is just making players feel whole or more whole as a result of the inconvenience

light hound
#

Something I am surprised by (not in a bad way) is how important leagues is to Jagex as well, and how it reflects in the compensation. For example, they opt for a fixed time of DXP instead of double XP knowledge bombs so that folks won't be tempted to use them during the leagues period.

karmic shoal
#

True. But is another 12 hours of dxp equitable compensation? Like there’s ironmen that had their game time disrupted. Is there compensation for them?

#

I think it should’ve been something similar to how they managed that login debacle two years ago

#

Unless I am having a brain fart and Ironman weren’t eligible for that either

sullen sandal
#

they took feedback in that reddit thread yesterday and the 12h bxp is the conclusion they arrived on from the feedback

light hound
sullen sandal
#

which is better than the 24h idea originally floated

karmic shoal
#

I rarely peruse the Reddit forum so that information isn’t readily available to me as discord is

light hound
#

if it helps, you can easily keep an eye on all jmod posts on reddit over in #social-feed ^^ they get automatically cross-posted there

glad crystal
mellow gazelle
glad crystal
#

i wonder if they're ever appropriate then? like imagine next dxp (which would be post-catalyst) instead of an "event" you just hand out 48 superior bombs to everybody, do you think people would be holding onto those long enough that it would disrupt other releases?

and for that matter, does everybody choosing their own dxp time "ruin" dxp? since you probably wouldn't have a large gathering of pulse cores or portable deposit boxes, amongst other things

#

personally i think both might also be cool, assuming we're going down to 2 "dxp" a year, the winter one could be a bomb handout and the summer one could be a traditional event

slate depot
#

just lock out everyone who was affected for the same duration as the login lockout and give them the returned title

glad crystal
#

joe's gonna say "no dxp best dxp" and i agree, but at the same time....

slate depot
mellow gazelle
#

It does, at least in Jagex's perspective since it's supposed to be an engagement event

glad crystal
sullen sandal
#

Like it would have been fine earlier in the year

mellow gazelle
#

giving people double exp that they can use any time is just a handout with no extra engagement

karmic shoal
#

I like that idea. As it gives players the opportunity to dxp at their own pace. Removing the issue that players miss out on dxp events

mellow gazelle
#

no community feeling, nothing

karmic shoal
#

But still they gotta phase this out

mellow gazelle
#

if they're just gonna dump forever double exp on players, they may as well just raise base rates

slate depot
#

on bond membership which was discussed above

karmic shoal
#

Honestly they don’t really need to do that. Our xp/hr rates are so much higher than osrs and they don’t complain about the difficulty of 200m or maxing

glad crystal
mellow gazelle
#

this is rs3, not osrs

karmic shoal
#

They’re spoiled

#

Sister game still shares the same xp/leveling grind

mellow gazelle
#

I don't need to argue this since Jagex is already aware, but this game has its own players with their own wants and copying everything osrs does is not a solution

slate depot
#

my impression is very much that the percentage of the playerbase who are paying with bonds is probably about the same as it always has been, but there are people who previously had income which was much higher relatively than they do now, with the consequence that they've become players for whom bond membership is unaffordable and that feels a lot worse - in much the same way that a person who moves from a flat to a house is a lot better than a person who moves from a mansion to one

karmic shoal
#

Kinda is. Especially when you look at player counts between both games

slate depot
#

and the noticeable change imo is that over the last decade or so, the value of high skill levels has massively, massively declined, so a lot of players who were early maxers will have fallen out of that bracket

mellow gazelle
#

i think bond membership is doing good especially with the price drop

slate depot
#

yeah I see no major reason to be concerned with bond prices

mellow gazelle
#

I think it's crazy that an early or midgamer was ever able to fully bond out their membership

#

at 160-180m per bond it was kinda bad

#

for me personally but I literally don't play a ton

#

if I was playing all the time I wouldn't care

slate depot
#

I think another effect of mtx changes will be a reduction in bond prices

#

players who previously spent irl gp on effective xp will end up buying bonds for progression instead

mellow gazelle
#

I think those with a case against bond prices right now for membership are primarily afk or otherwise low intensity skillers and slayers

glad crystal
#

i'm curious what has caused them to drop recently, i was excepting the fallout from necromancy to continue for a while

slate depot
#

my theory is that the game's development over the past year has caused a significant number of super-wealthy entrenched players to stop playing and they're no longer buying bonds for keys and membership as a consequence

#

(I don't think this is a bad thing btw)

light hound
#

and since then they haven't really recovered from the fall

glad crystal
#

surely that would cause them to increase though?

slate depot
light hound
#

oh right I had a brainfart wise_old_man sorry

slate depot
#

oh right you're talking to 4d

#

nvm

mellow gazelle
#

thats what I expected, but instead they stagnated before going down which is pretty cool

#

which I guess means

#

it was a feedback loop

#

more real cash to buy, less gp for selling

#

but then the price would rise if there were less bonds

#

I guess some people literally didn't care

#

so it was a market bearing thing

glad crystal
#

if im understanding you correctly

mellow gazelle
#

bond buyers were content with paying more for bonds that were worth less gp

noble yew
slate depot
glad crystal
#

that makes sense

slate depot
#

idk if it's the case now but there was def a period where by far the best method for a lot of skills was 2449 claims and using the gp to buy spins

glad crystal
#

by that logic, i can see why nerfing, removing, converting or making mtx items otherwise incompatible with dxp would lower bond prices more

mellow gazelle
#

basically, buy bonds now to merch them later

#

also buy genesis shards, they're going back up because people realized adding it to a hard group boss' table does not, in fact, literally double its rate into the game

glad crystal
#

like you can't put them on the GE if you bought them on the GE

light hound
mellow gazelle
#

idk how many opportunities there's actually been to make money with bonds

#

especially after they made premier all year round

#

that was the big thing for bond merching

#

after that it was like, keeping an eye on treasure hunter and hoping bonds spike more than 16m due to a promo? lol

glad crystal
#

better safe than sorry when it comes to keeping bonds cheap

slate depot
#

I keep most of my main's money in bonds just as the closest thing RS has to an index fund

#

has been nice

spice lynx
# glad crystal i'm curious what has caused them to drop recently, i was excepting the fallout f...

We had a period of inflation were the bond price had increased significantly. This was not all caused by the inflation. Less people bought bonds and it was attractive to invest into bonds which caused the price to go up even more. It seemed like they would only go up. However recently the salvageables of bosses have been nerfed and this makes it less attractive to invest into bonds. Prices have ups and downs and don't follow a straight line. In the long term bonds are still way more expensive than they used to be.

lapis relic
#

Is anyone else disappointed to see lamps, proteins, and dummies back to being a part of Treasure Hunter? I was looking forward to using my silver hawks although I do hope they update agility at some point, but I was honestly happy to have just the shooting stars on treasure hunter. Imo it makes for some decent middle ground. Bonus xp makes skilling more efficient but they don't take away from the game or level your stats for you like lamps. The rest I just don't care for more of the game being played from the bank which in my mind takes away from the whole experience.

karmic shoal
# lapis relic Is anyone else disappointed to see lamps, proteins, and dummies back to being a ...

from a more purist point of view, bonus xp is just what Treasure Hunter used to be. When Squeal of fortune came out it was all about bonus xp. this is just us backtracking and not making actual progress. bonus xp is unnecessary especially in a form of MTX. Anyone with disposable income can throw money at the screen and literally cut their grind in half. this doesnt make the game healthy (which is the focus of these experiments not efficiency). On top of that our xp rates without mtx are ridiculously higher than osrs where people achieve max and 200m fairly.

noble yew
#

tbh, expecting it to not return to its regular form is a bit out of the norm. Jagex is eventually going to make a decision on th. hopefully its good instead of bad.

karmic shoal
#

really hoping they avoid that bonus/bomb bundle idea

#

they could easily just shove all that bonus xp into minigames

#

you want bonus xp then do minigames

#

im super excited for this next experiment

lapis relic
noble yew
#

a minigame isnt a bad idea is what im saying

lapis relic
# karmic shoal really hoping they avoid that bonus/bomb bundle idea

As someone who misses minigames when people actually played them and didn't just sit for thaler I would love this. I would be inclined to agree with you on removing it as a whole but I can live with bxp itself if they were persistent on selectively keeping some of it and just heavily lowering how much is rewarded. But the best thing would be it's removal. I don't get to play often so I don't entirely hate faster xp

#

If I was to give a bigger gripe myself as someone who doesn't have a lot of time to play it's TH and dailies as a whole. I get it in a way to incentivize people coming back as many games do, but I've quit many times in the past when I've found myself only logging on to use my keys or hit the daily challenges. It just makes me question what I'm doing playing as a whole when I'm making time in every day just for that.

karmic shoal
# noble yew a minigame isnt a bad idea is what im saying

I gotcha. I think the game has been too diluted by the presence of bonus xp and MTX related xp boosters that people have become too comfortable with it. as a purist I think we need a full bandaid rip of the problem and let people play the game naturally

#

if people finna complain about xp rates, then we need a proper retiering of our xp/hr rates as you level up. kinda silly that low tier methods outshine higher level ones

karmic shoal
zealous dagger
#

idk if people complaining about exp rates is a problem. runescape is, and always has been a grinding game

#

shortening the grind for quick profit is what rs3 has been doing for ages, and yeah, a few have gotten comfortable with that.

#

but the reality is, new players wanting to skip to the end are playing the wrong game, and those trying to compete for top spots or something (i cant think of any other reason you'd want faster exp as a longterm player) isnt a lot of people

#

pretty much all skills are extremely quick to level, or really dull. so thats mostly a fix skills issue, not a problem in removing proteans

lament summit
#

Official hiscores are always MTX blocked from the start. Unless there's some other 'top spot' you're talking about, but they are likely niche.

zealous dagger
#

official highscores had top spots taken over 10 years ago

#

by top spots, i mean people trying to get 200mil or something to take those spots and get that rank before someone else does, or something and be 1000th to 200mil or whatever. im not really sure what it is, just trying to think of why someone would care.

#

other than skipping to endgame so they can quit the game quicker

lament summit
#

It's flawed thinking that people reaching endgame faster means they will quit the game quicker. If they truly only care about xp and quit once they are done, those are simply the wrong type of players. Runescape offers way more content than just leveling and xp.

#

I bet players are more inclined to quit learning to have to do something repetitive for 100 hours before they can get to the good stuff.

karmic shoal
#

official high scores can also return to relevancy with a prestige system or removing the cap on xp

zealous dagger
#

sure, it does. however, if you take exp out of the equation, the game doesnt have 'that' much. sure, you have pvm and unlocks, but if we're skipping that, these people can get BiS easily.

karmic shoal
#

but we need the removal of mtx affecting xp gains and honestly dxp

zealous dagger
#

so whats left is... endless money grind, a flood of simple achievements i cant imagine them enjoying if they dont want to grind and stuff other games do better.

#

i dont think high scores can ever really be relevant

#

its going to be something at best, large guilds collabing will achieve. at worst, people just buy it.

lament summit
#

How many hours of gameplay do you think Runescape contains outside of leveling and xp? Quests, achievements, logs, other stuff, etc.

karmic shoal
#

depends on rng, but an assload

zealous dagger
#

the quests arnt that good
achievements arnt exclusively, but mostly a grind.
logs is a grind.

#

im not saying there isnt gameplay out of level grinding.

karmic shoal
#

but the primary gameplay is grinding

zealous dagger
#

but a huge amount of that gameplay is basically the same as skill grinding

#

yeah

karmic shoal
#

but i disagree with the notion that highscores will never be relevant again

zealous dagger
#

why is that?

#

they've never been really relevant in any game.

#

theres the illusion of relevancy.

#

but they are rarely relevant

karmic shoal
#

i mean as a 20+ year player it had a ton of relevancy in my gameplay

zealous dagger
#

oh, back in the day it did for sure

#

i agree.

karmic shoal
#

thats what im saying, it can go back to that

#

we just need to address the way xp is being affected so its fair/equitable

zealous dagger
#

but nowadays we have large meta guilds that will put 100s of people's resources into a small group to get top spots

#

and cheaters obviously, but should ignore that

karmic shoal
#

i mean to cheat to get high xp means you are either botting or abusing which can result in bans

zealous dagger
#

the same people will also use groups of accounts to funnel people, even in ironman

karmic shoal
#

having clans help clanmates get access to materials to do the grind isnt really cheating the highscores

zealous dagger
#

and by fuel, i dont mean just give them supplies.

#

its not really cheating.

#

but it makes getting a top spot mostly a joke, because its only a few massive guilds competing together

#

great for those groups

#

but not really relevant

karmic shoal
#

i mean in WoW you got like 4 guilds that compete with eachother, still remains a competitive scene

#

top guilds arent invulnerable to collapse and other guilds taking over

lament summit
#

True though. A player playing solo can never compete against clans grouping up for top spots.

zealous dagger
#

kind of. but wow limits content access.

karmic shoal
#

true true

zealous dagger
#

like, you can compare mythic+ to raiding in wow

karmic shoal
#

are we seeing this type of abuse in OSRS hiscores?

zealous dagger
#

there is some mtyhic+ racing and stuff

#

but it lats days

zealous dagger
#

for example, in osrs, people use multiaccount tricks to have enemies stack in groups to aoe

#

enemies that would not normally.

#

there is a method called red-xing, that stalls an enemy on the spot

#

while their iron kills it

karmic shoal
#

i know what youre saying, but i just cant seem to fully agree with it. probably my bias

zealous dagger
#

maybe.

#

another example.

#

top raiding spots in wow are, threough its history, always cheaters.

#

not cheating as in hacking.

#

but people exploiting to get first.

karmic shoal
#

oh for sure. i remember OG Naxx days

zealous dagger
#

im sure theres times where it wasnt, but most of the time, it was.

karmic shoal
#

reason why I left Sargeras for a smaller server

zealous dagger
#

id also argue that wow gets a lot more content that keeps people happy before they quit, rs3.. doesnt.

#

CAs would actually be an ok argument, after buying BiS gear (theoredically thats what we're talking about i think, people who have unlimited exp/resources), how long does that take, assuming you take the old boring stuff out of the equation?

lapis relic
#

I'm sure this is due to the fast xp rates and mtx rewards but to the notion that longterm players wouldn't necessarily want to get to endgame fast I actually find the opposite anymore. The majority of early-mid players (that enter clans at least) still have bossing as their goal and it often feels like a race to them to get there to join the rest of the community. Given the high level player base and the community focus of bossing within all of these clans it makes a whole lot of sense honestly. People often recommend just doing the quests or setting Milestones specifically for these goals in mind. I haven't found a clan yet that has maintained hosting regular events for anything but endgame. Plus with most of us being in our mid 20s-30s the game has become highly efficiency focused and for those who haven't gotten to end game before, for the reasons stated above, often feel behind which can also encourage mtx items to make up the gap and get there quicker. Like I said a good part probably MTX caused but it's just a big case of FOMO and many times discouragement and burnout.

noble yew
ornate wharf