#MTX Experiment : Double XP With MTX Limitations

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shell obsidian
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Source: I've seen people adapt to lack of portable forge super fast

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You never hear people clamoring for portable forge back

mellow gazelle
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needing proteans for herblore too is crazy considering how cheap it is now, several real potions are profitable with or without double exp event

runic atlas
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Would need all the guides to be updated. First thing people check is the wiki and the first thing you see when you check p2p crafting for ex is synopsis followed by portable lol

shell obsidian
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Yeah but they would be updated pretty quickly

mellow gazelle
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guess that's another to chalk up to "players don't need to know that since they just skip it"

shell obsidian
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They already got page for tuska's wrath ability codex and all that updated already

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for todays upate

lapis garden
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Really, removing comments again?

sullen sandal
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Yes. Let’s not have it in here

lapis garden
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It was feedback on the disaster this DXP is

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I don't see y'all removing comments for those supporting the changes. Only from those of us that are unhappy. Just silencing those who don't agree with what y'all want to do.

sullen sandal
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Your comment had nothing in it that was feedback. You were supporting ddos’ing the game and that isn’t acceptable

lapis garden
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And there are plenty of us who have been discussing this in PMs because y'all keep deleting comemnts

sullen sandal
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So cut it out

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Last warning

mystic canyon
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I was just joking. Sorry...

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Wasn't supporting it though. Just kidding around.

light hound
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dw kfc, wasn't aimed at you, you're good ^^

mystic canyon
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🙂 ty!

rotund trout
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But also. You're banned now 😛

mystic canyon
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🙁

karmic shoal
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Lol the rage is so bad people wanna ddos?

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I’ve enjoyed dxp so much

stuck locust
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I've just been mining instead of what my original intent with leveling herblore with proteans

karmic shoal
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Not seeing the GE riddled with afkscape and ring of trees or whatever obnoxious cosmetics has been chefs kiss

stuck locust
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Just as afk, but I do still have to pay attention somewhat if I want it to stay xp efficient too

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Otherwise it's just deplete the entire bar and tap a different node every so often

haughty mist
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I feel like dxp has lost its meaning. 1 or 2 a year people were actually preparing properly for it and was looked foward to by everyone. Moving it back to the 1 or 2 a year, but instead of running dxp weekend seeing more of like a skilling week or a combat week clue week etc where it buffs the releated weeks, like for skilling you get double resources or dbl mining damage 2x chance to cut logs etc. wars coldron, free deaths, increased drop chances etc for combat, and clues can do like chance to instantly finish clues, less steps chance not to spawn double agents etc

karmic shoal
rotund trout
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Alot of people would agree and love to see stuff like that

haughty mist
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And or can do 1 mtx allowed dxp and 1 no mtx dxp

rotund trout
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Idk about that. If mtx items stay they might aswell just let them be used during dxps to satisfy the people that can't live without them

haughty mist
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Either way I think running an activity boosting week would be much more beneficial then 40 days/192 hrs of dxp a year

shell obsidian
rancid marten
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Bizarre that they chose not even to let you use your double xp tokens

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This has become a shell of an event, most of my clan is refusing to even play during it.

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Personally this is the least active I have ever been during it too.

rotund trout
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Why is that?

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Why is just having 2x xp rates not enough incentive to play a bit more during this time?

icy cliff
# rotund trout Why is just having 2x xp rates not enough incentive to play a bit more during th...

I can't speak for them, but for me it was never about the xp. I don't even think I'm going to use up the timer this time around either.

For me, it was about getting finishing the Lunarfury override costume upgrade and then working on getting the Sunfury one and making sure I had all of the Starfire outfit pieces (because I think they are cool. Wish they were an override instead of a set).

The xp boost was more like a side-effect of me farming DXP tokens for all the cosmetics they offer. Without the token store, I'm just running the timer while playing normally. I haven't done any "special preparations" to min-max the xp or anything.

rotund trout
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Fair enough to just be playing as you normally would

icy cliff
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lol

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People keep talking about reaching bossing ASAP, but I'm in no hurry to get to that point as I think I'll be terrible at bossing even with high stats.

mystic canyon
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"maybe when i'm 120"

severe crest
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@shell obsidian how is your "natural state" gaming

shell obsidian
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Peak

undone zinc
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I mostly care about the AFK aspect of proteans, amount of exp not so much, esp when used with Portables. I'm not in any hurry to gain exp anymore.

Protean items are good for AFK but they are not great exp anymore really. Perversely protean items are bad at low levels, giving exp based on your level, best to hold them till Level 99+.

Near endgame on exp with Main, really like working on finishing up main, doing acheivements, etc while just clicking on an Alt every so often.

Maybe wouldn't mind if a small number of protean/similar were tradable or craftable? Not sure it's a good idea though? Even ok with Jagex selling a VERY limited amount of protean. I doubt most agree with that though.

Giant Mimic originally dropped limited protean items in game. I loved that, but they removed from drops when Mimic became perm content.

My Main got quite a few protean from Mimic and kept/used them for years later. Actually didn't use many protean items till the last run to 200 mill in a number of skills, which is when I started Alts. Would play the Alt a bit and semi AFK Main with protean over a week or two to finish 200 mill.

south path
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I think if proteans were to be tradable, it would need to be a new item, say Kits. (functionally the same just different name and theme to fit into the game more + stop people from flooding the GE with their existing stockpiles). So instead of a protean shake, you'd have a potion research kit, crafted by other players using herb ingredients. Then they could sell them on the GE, another player can buy them and use them like protean shakes. Kinda like when people buy +5 armor sets to use in burial smithing.

I think this would be better than proteans since it wouldn't be buyable, and would allow players to indirectly pay others to do the click intensive stuff in exchange for a very afk training material.

Just not sure how hard it would be to make these enticing enough to buy, and enticing enough to make.

zealous dagger
south path
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I lean that way as well, just kicking around a way to keep one aspect in the game for those who like it, without the collateral damage that proteans do, if someone wants to just afk their skills away, let em , just let em do it in a way that doesn't avoid the economy

undone zinc
undone zinc
# south path I lean that way as well, just kicking around a way to keep one aspect in the gam...

I do take issue with your statement "the collateral damage that proteans do"

What damage? How someone else trains has ZERO effect on you unless you count envy.

"Oh look that person is beating me"

This attitude is the fundamental problem in the game. Too many people concerned with how others "unjustly" got their gains.

In truth you are not competing with anyone else in game, except in your own mind. What does it matter if some got, earned, or bought exp faster? Doesn't affect your character in the slightest.

Jagex isn't selling gear or weapons (directly) you can get with bonds but that's optional. Point is all things can be earned in game. It would be a real problem if they ONLY sold the top gear and weapons, etc.

I find this is the REAL problem most have with MTX or Jagex supplied "boosts" etc. It's jealousy.

south path
# undone zinc I do take issue with your statement "the collateral damage that proteans do" Wh...

I don't really care if others afk their XP, I only care a little about bought XP for the same reason i care a little about proteans, it stops items from leaving the economy. Players complain about commons being worthless, well when so much XP in the skills that consumes those is coming from sources that skip that gameplay loop, why would they be worth anything?

Proteans as they are in the game right now let people progress skills that otherwise require participating in the games economy one way or another and just makes them... not do that anymore.

This is damaging to the rest of the games player base because its removing demand that would otherwise be there.

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I understand that many players are just doing their own thing, but it's the way the rest of te game is designed, and the MTX skilling items are the odd ones out breaking that loop

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And i think jagex agrees with at least that standpoint, what we need to do is acknowledge the negative side affects of these items (beyond the ratther useless "MTX bad" and hiscores complaints), but also acknowledge what players do like about these items, and try to find a way forward.

It doesn't do anyone any good to sugar coat the bad, just like it doesn't help to overstate the negatives. I meant "collateral damage" in the most literal way, side effects of its usage. I didn't mean to offend anyone, sorry if i did

zealous dagger
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Not wanting proteans to go, to me, is mostly just not wanting to play the game. Thats mostly what they are. Remove all other gameplay mechanics so that you can afk longer and for higher rates. If the game itself isnt fun, that should be fixed. If you only need numbers go up with less gameplay, idk what to tell you

undone zinc
# south path I don't really care if others afk their XP, I only care a little about bought XP...

I might agree that alternatives like proteans decrease demand for items in game but that argument overlooks something critical.

The game is so complex, with so much exp needed, that the old ways (get items yourself and use them) are really not viable for most people. Look how few people start and continue Irons.

If better alternatives are not available it will simply cause people to leave the game.

zealous dagger
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I wouldnt say the game is that complex.

south path
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Well we have the GE, nothing stoping you from bankstanding potions or whatever w/o proteans if you pay others for their items. I do agree with Darknesse that ideally, we should be adding more rewards, training methods, etc so that people actually wanna play the game

zealous dagger
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It has compexity to be maximum efficient, but the game mechanics themselves are fine, not that much slower, and not that complex

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Depth is good.

south path
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I think it was Mod Azzanna? Saying one of the things they want to learn from this experiment is which skills do people just not train if they cant use proteans/dummys/whatever. Hopefully, that means those skills get some tune-ups in 2026

zealous dagger
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Yeah, would be nice. And hopefully better gameplay, not just faster methods.

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Faster was the wrong answer, and was done way too much already in the past

south path
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Training the skill should just feel worth the time, either by rewards from training, unlocks, actually fun gameplay, or number go brrrrr. Ideally theres a mix of methods that provide different amounts of each, but rn theres a few skills that fail on all of these, namely firemaking and hunter (until BGH)

undone zinc
zealous dagger
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If i were, i wouldnt be here.

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The fact that theres so much more is extremely compelling.

stuck locust
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But I'm probably also in the minority in that case

zealous dagger
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thats kind of the problem with them. people use them to mostly skip gameplay. sometimes thats fine, but the fact that they are really good exp AND that afk, its bad.

stuck locust
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I'm already doing that now with mining but there's only so many porters and ore box can hold before I do have to inevitably bank eventually

zealous dagger
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and yeah, id agree, mostly afk methods are kind of fine around 25-30% of normal active skilling speed.

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but then theres still the problem of taking out the need of using materials as well, which is also pretty bad for the game

stuck locust
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As it really should be. It should have a tradeoff imho - you can't have the best of both worlds of both time efficient and xp efficient. Should be one or the other, not both.

I think earlier it was also mentioned about making possible crafted versions of them instead like the burials for smithing - that'd be something to look into

zealous dagger
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that wouldnt be too bad i guess. but im not sure its necessary.

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most of those skills are already some of the fastest in the game

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assuming you're buying materials

stuck locust
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It'd be essentially burial equivalents of what the current "tiers" that the proteans are

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Inventory efficiency perhaps would be the selling point of those kinds of items over for things like herblore. You could have all slots filled with these kinds vs half potion half mat

elfin pond
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Hmm... from what i am reading so far, it sounds like this experiment has been a huge bust and not much activity going on. Though with an incident in progress it seems the results will be skewed a bit unless they have a way of filtering that out.

Unfortunately for me i cannot do dxp in its current state since with such limitations and my status of "time poor".

ornate wharf
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I can’t figure out the wordplay 🤔

earnest granite
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[[Sir Alvin]]
[[Sir Simon]]
😉

gloomy plazaBOT
rotund trout
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But i also think not every skill needs a full afk method to train, but if that's the way the game moves forward the xp rates for it need to be on the bad side of things imo

zealous dagger
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Oh, this os the dxp thread. But yeah, dont see how it was a bist either.

rotund trout
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Atleast on higher levels

zealous dagger
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Dungeoneering hole is funny.

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Its horrible for the game.

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But its a bandaid fix to a skill most people hate (and some quite like)

rotund trout
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Dung is in a weird state of just being "to complex or active" for what people like

zealous dagger
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Actually, the problem kind of is that its not complex really.

rotund trout
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You'd be surprised how many ppl dont understand the puzzles and hate it for that reason

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But idk if complex is the best word to use there. I just dont know what else to use

stuck locust
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I actually enjoy doing dungeoneering, but I'm also likely not far enough yet to go insane from it 🤣

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Sinkholes do get boring tho

south path
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Been doing a bunch of dung on the iron recently, i got frustrated by dead clicks when doing puzzles cuz i clicked 0.01 ticks before the animation finished, and how repetitive it was.

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at 95 rn

zealous dagger
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The puzzles can be hard, but dung is like.. things are a problem once.

rotund trout
zealous dagger
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And boring after that.

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And rewards are based on its length when boring.

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So the payoff isnt worth it when youre in discovery.

south path
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Indeed but it requires my full attention and isn't difficult, theres barely a fail state. BGH isn't hard but i find it more engaging than dung still

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maybe its just not for me tho

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i like the idea of the skill

zealous dagger
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So you get this weird match where the skill isnt rewarding you appropriately for puzzles, and isnt interesting

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Yeah, it requires too much attention, which when not engaging, is really really boring

south path
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also feels like i have little to no control over getting better gear for it, I randomly got dropped a sag bow which i think is good (cant use it yet but bound it) but it looks like its going to take forever to get the outfit

rotund trout
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Fragment rates for outfits need to be looked at

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A 20 minute floor ahouldnt give the same as a 3minute one

zealous dagger
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Yep. Not engaging, doesnt feel rewarding, takes way too long.. its nothing but problems really

rotund trout
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But in dungeons there isn't much need for armour anyways so just grabbing a random t80+ weapon which bosses drop often enough is fine

zealous dagger
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Yeah, the gear barely feels worth the effort lol

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Like, you skip all optional.

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That on its own shows a huge problem

south path
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Progression within a skill is fun, and dung is by its nature locked off from a bunch of the normal options. Basically just arch relics + outfit, and gear you get within the skill.

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I was both amused and very annoyed when i ran into what appears to be the one and only actually dangerous dung boss when i got to 95 🫠

rotund trout
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Wouldn't say its a huge problem

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I'd say its a good thing gear isnt super required

south path
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Does hard mode need better gear? Maybe it should give more xp/tokens, so investing in the skill is worth it? idk

rotund trout
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Maybe but i've never heard of anyone doing hardmode

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Don't think it's worth doing

zealous dagger
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None of it feels worth doing to me

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Id rather spend 10x as long afking the skill.

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Ive heard it gets better past 100 though

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As in, exp/tokens

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Still going to be dull

south path
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A handful of the rewards are nice, but a lot of the gear you probably out-level by the time you get it. The passives are a nice upgrade (do wish we had a better way to track all the random passives/enchantment/whatever we had and had not unlocked but different discussion). Daemonheim arch helps with unlocking them at somewhat appropriate levels though, was able to get chaos crossbows without almost maxing dungeoneering 😅

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(rewards outside of deaemonheim i mean)

zealous dagger
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Dung has too many necessary rewards

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The devs tried so hard in all the wrong areas to force it.

south path
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Yeah on the other end we have autosmelter, gem bag, charming imp, etc

runic atlas
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thats because it's content that released a super long time ago and hasnt really been touched up since

rotund trout
zealous dagger
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Add more stuff? Doesnt fix the core issues. Add rewards, thatll force them in there. Wait, they dont enjoy it.

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Yeah, but its different here.

south path
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Fair, i just wish my dungeoneering level mattered outside of daemonheim, or there was some reason to train it beyond maxing. Most of the resource dungeons are kinda pointless IMO, the most useful one seems to be edimmus but thats all the way at 115

zealous dagger
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I actually like playing the game.

south path
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I swear there was a jmod asking for people dung QoL requests not too long ago

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dont remember who

zealous dagger
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But i hate dungeoneering so much, that ill wait however long it takes to not do it.

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People have been asling for a dung rework since release, and its never come.

south path
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Making the Alt1 dungeoneering map part of the game would help a lot for me, even if i had to mark it myself

zealous dagger
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Now, you should just skip the skill entirely.

south path
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instead of automatic

zealous dagger
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Get tokens and spend from eds

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Like, ill probably max that way

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Or afk arch tokens

rotund trout
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Dung doesn't need a rework. Players just need to rework their mindset of "active play is bad"

zealous dagger
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Its not active thats the problem

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It has nothing to do with it being active.

rotund trout
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But it wouldn't be hated as much if it wasn't active

zealous dagger
rotund trout
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Theres much worse skills out there that have way less rewards for levellign them or doing them

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Yet the only ones actively getting so much hate are agility / dungeoneering

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Because thos ealso happen to be active skills

zealous dagger
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Its not because its active. Its because its not interesting, its a lot of effort, and the reward doesnt feel wortg the effort put in

runic atlas
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agility hasn't had a useful function in a decade

zealous dagger
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Probably for the first 110 levels.

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I do loads of active pvm ajd love it

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I wont touch dung

rotund trout
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Can't really compare those to each other imo

runic atlas
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dungeoneering has some reward sthat are still handy for irons, and it's a decent place to level some stuff

south path
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I kinda wish it wasn't "the daemonheim skill". Like, i like daemonheim, it has cool lore. But it should probably be a dungeon delving skill, have a few alternative dungeons that we can bring (some of?) our gear into, minor passive benefits in elite dungeons if desired. Maybe it should be a bigger part of Shifting Tombs, Shattered worlds etc. as the "procedural dungeon" skill? I'm just kinda rambling at this point tho

zealous dagger
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They are both active

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So what's the difference?

runic atlas
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agility has 0 usecase

south path
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Daemonheim should be the main place but some diversity so it feels like its more impactful

zealous dagger
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I thought they meant pvm vs dung sorry

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Agility is bad

rotund trout
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And there happens to be monsters you sometimes have to kill in dung for 0 reward at all

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Pvm will always be more favored because it's rewarding with money

south path
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Agility's main benefits kinda got powercrept out of the game, between more teleports, then lodestones, then even more teleports. Not that that's automatically a bad thing, but the game has shifted towards convenience and away from that slightly gritty "survival" vision that created things like Firemaking

zealous dagger
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The difference is, pvm is engaging and rewarding, and doesnt overstep its welcome

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You can move on

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Dung lasts forever, is never engaging, and never feels rewarding

rotund trout
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Doesn't really last forever, Has more rewards then atleast half the other skills in the game. And is one of the most engaging skills in the game. But you're right, This turned into a useless back and forth since we have different opinions so let's move on

south path
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If hardmode made me actually use abilities and make gear and stuff instead of just revoing everything to death (i know this is a big ask since dg pre-dates EoC but still) and gave more xp to reward for the effort i'd probably do it for fun (well need to fix a few of the piuzzles to be a bit less buggy too 😅 )

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The puzzles are fine in difficulty and can stay some just feel like needless timesinks due to old code + animations, where i know how to solve the puzzle but i need to wait for the books to move or whatever.

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Maybe some dupe protection on the worse ones tho, i got books 3 times on 1 floor the other day 💀

rotund trout
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The books could use a speed increase for sure

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But idk we've strayed far from the topic of the dxp experiment here

zealous dagger
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Yeah, it doesnt last forver. It just feels like it. And yeah, the puzzles are fine. The problem is repeating the same puzzles over and over.

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They'd be great once.

south path
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Eh, dung dummies exist don't they 😅 but yeah your'e right

zealous dagger
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Yeah, its off topic for sure.

rocky marsh
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As a new player, I haven’t liked any of the experiments - no way I could have played rs to the level of other players without all the extras

rotund trout
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You could have. It would just take some time

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It's normal when you're new you can't instantly do everyone others can do

lament summit
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Tbh, there's enough to do and early game isn't bad.

It starts to get... 'bad' when it reaches the point you have to do the same thing for hundreds of hours.

slate depot
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yeah I def think the feedback I've seen here has reinforced my belief in a strong need to focus on being early or mid game just being fine

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to my mind those should be the most fun/magical parts of the game in fact

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and where new players are deeply concerned about 'catching up', it's because the game isn't doing enough to help them feel like they can take it at their own pace and have the best experience that way

ornate wharf
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“Consume XP”? What does that even mean?

slate depot
lament summit
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Heh, sounds like an idea to process raw materials into proteans, so you can utilize them in bulk / ease later on.

e.g. Mix of logs --> x (unstable) protean logs, where x is dependent on the quality and amount of logs provided.

slate depot
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aye, if proteans have to continue existing, that'd be the model I'd go for

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for things which grant xp above current 'natural' materials I think you can get reaaaaally aggressive with ratios (e.g. 5 elder logs -> 1 protean elder log)

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I'm also supportive of the introduction of new afk methods for skills which don't have them (though they should not be protean-level xp, that's fairly absurd imo)

zealous dagger
elfin pond
gentle python
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This experiment was very mixed, though wouldn't call it a "bust". I've been watching this thread since they opened it and it's generally been about 1/3 of people liking dxp with no mtx, 1/3 not wanting mtx to be touched, and the other 1/3 just being people who don't consume any RS news and stocked up on mtx for this dxp and then couldn't use them

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It's definitely been the most divisive of the three experiments since most people have just kinda settled on "add a toggle" for the cosmetics, and it's really hard to defend TH, though there are still a few

south path
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I do wish more people that dislike the current experiment would elaborate on why, like what part are they missing, there may be a compromise to be found like craftable proteans and giving the luminite injector treatment to portables. But just saying this sucks cuz you wanna use the mtx items, while a valid opinion, also isn't very informative :/

glad crystal
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i've tried asking towards proteans, it seems like the typical answer is just that they're afk or have good xp rates, but there's SO many things you can do in the actual game that can achieve similar afking and/or xp rates, you just need to put in a bit of prep work

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the only true outliers are protean essence and ranged dummies, runespan is miserable and chinchompas kinda hit their limit on mid tier enemies

gentle python
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Yeah, it's a bit difficult to really get a solid grasp on it and I've spent a lot of time talking to some of the folks that do vouch for mtx on here. I'd say the #1 reason given is "I don't have much time to play in the day". I get it, I also have a job and can't always find time to play and I'm sure there are people more busier than I am. I usually try to explain that you can achieve what you're set out to do without mtx with better activity design, and that will kind of get some folks to understand. Many of them do want some form of heavy afk method of training that also gets them to power level and I just don't see a way to make that good for the game. Finally, I'll try explaining that the game could instead offer more mid->high level meaningful goals, sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't.

south path
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I think that last one is key, like for many accounts herblore is functionally useless until OVLs unlock. But people also feel like pvming is pointless before then for some reason?

glad crystal
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and the xp rates are ridiculously out of band, you can do miasma or soul runes with zero lost ticks and cap out at like 330k xp/h, protean essence during dxp just sitting there can reach 2mil xp/h

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i think we're due for t90 chins at least, to give then the accuracy and damage necessary to excel at the monsters that have competitive top tier xp rates, and a true afk runecrafting method, those are what i see as most urgent to replace their dummy and protean counterpart

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this is all assuming we're trying to fill the gaps left behind by the total removal of proteans and dummies of course

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so thsoe who currently prefer the gameplay style offered by those items have options

gentle python
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Yeah Runespan is like not "truly afk" enough for anyone who really wants to set their character up and check every few minutes, but also not remotely engaging for anyone who actually wants to play the game. Not to mention it doesn't give squat for rewards other than the outfits

glad crystal
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i think the one thing runespan really needs is a bar above the node that shows how long they last, kinda like divination wisps

gentle python
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Like it has the long-term goals, which is good and gives you something to work towards, but between sessions you just get xp which may or may not level you depending on how high you are

glad crystal
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but it would still very relatively short term afking unless the lifespan of the nodes is increased

slate depot
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delete runespan, it's just shit

glad crystal
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real

clear cedar
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RuneSpan is fine it just needs randomness

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The fact you can just know which islands are optimal for your level defeats much of the fun

slate depot
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I'll save the full runespan rant for next time it comes up in #design-chat, but no - almost every aspect of its design and implementation is irredeemably shit

snow shard
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Hello, I very much like this style of Double XP - no proteans no portables no lamps no dxp packages no cores no silverhawks

B.G. rates this: 11/10

ty 4 ur attention to this matter, keep up the great work

zealous dagger
# gentle python Yeah, it's a bit difficult to really get a solid grasp on it and I've spent a lo...

The funny thing with the argument 'i dont have enough time to play', is that they dont have time to play, so they want to skip the game? Its not like rs is a skip to the endgame, and play that sort of game. I guess theres some merit in it, but proteans arnt really targetting low to mid level players. So its just people wanting to skip grinding via extreme afk at near max level, in a game thats gameplay is the grind.

stuck locust
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If proteans weren't so xp+time efficient, would the people currently against them still have issues with them?

Say if they were 10/20/25% of the current xp rate they are at now as an example - you'd earn more xp/hr doing the non-afk stuff, while still letting players that want to just "sit in one spot and click once every so often" still do the same as before, but at a more lower rate than right now.

slate depot
#

I am a strong proponent of afk methods existing for every skill up to a reasonable level of afkness (say 5 minutes). nerfed proteans might work for that but I would prefer something less thematically jarring

#

e.g. I think serenity pillars feel a lot better than the DG hole as an afk method

stuck locust
zealous dagger
elfin pond
#

its hard for me to describe my end of my reason other than i am very limited on time and what is being experimented on will make me fall very far behind everyone, even the casuals

stuck locust
mystic canyon
#

So you're either just behind in game time, or you're at the same level as everyone else. But proteans dont fix that first part.

stoic tulip
#

This has been the worst dxp ever

rotund trout
elfin pond
# mystic canyon So you're either just behind in game time, or you're at the same level as everyo...

I actually am behind. I am not up to the level right now to where i am able to do released content that they have planned out so far and i am behind in what they already have released. My only saving grace in my situation is i am ahead of schedule on other skills so i can put more focus on the ones i am behind on. But with my schedule the earliest i can even log in to check currently is August 31st. That is when i don't have work. I haven't been online since early last month because of work. I am hoping to gain control of my work schedule in the future but that won't be until October the earliest. So by that time, i would be falling behind on the planned releases. Thats kinda my situation right now

icy cliff
#

I think another reason people can feel like they’re “behind” is if they cannot do bossing yet (or do it reliably), and therefore viably sustain a bond based membership.

#

Bossing is so lucrative compared to regular skilling items that it can be disheartening sometimes.

light hound
light hound
icy cliff
light hound
icy cliff
zealous dagger
stuck locust
#

I mean Anima Islands technically got Thanos snapped 🤣 so nothing is forever

mystic canyon
clear cedar
#

that's incentive to do things now rather than later

karmic shoal
#

Kinda annoyed the survey didn’t ask about considering these MTX items to be earned in game via crafting or item/resource sinks

#

Zero reason why we can’t craft proteans, dwarf tools, portables, etc…

#

Obvious caveat that the xp/hr is reduced for all of them

#

I just want to craft magic vials

limber lagoon
#

I think you are given the option to suggest such things

zealous dagger
clear cedar
#

Yup

zealous dagger
clear cedar
#

Unfortunately the tactic will never fail to bring artificial engagement

#

So best you can do is be really negative about it

zealous dagger
#

im actually not crazy about the way this boss was handled.

#

i know its not this topic, but the whole release event i felt was just overall a bad move.

clear cedar
#

They also did a triple bait-and-switch on it

zealous dagger
#

howso?

clear cedar
#

For starters, they ended the event a good 10 hours earlier than they said they would

#

Free deaths were also misaligned with the release as usual but that's technically unrelated

zealous dagger
#

yeah, seperate issue really, though also bad

clear cedar
#

While not directly related, they also fucked up The RS Guy's event in a few ways that kind of had a domino effect

karmic shoal
zealous dagger
#

while thats somewhat true, its really just adding negligable cost to it, unless proteans end up being untradable altogether and need to be prepared by the one wanting to make them. i count the entire process as part of the method in calculations, so your implimentation would be in line with that

karmic shoal
#

Untradeable makes sense to me

zealous dagger
#

imo, complete removal makes the most sense

#

add in a method thats balanced appropriately and made from the ground up if enough people desperately need extreme afk methods

karmic shoal
#

Eh. Although I’m all about radical change for the betterment of the game. Keeping and revamping afk aspects isn’t harming the game especially if you make it a bit more difficult to obtain and maintain

#

They need to first retune how xp/hr scales with higher levels and tiers

#

Cause there’s no excuse that being able to spam lower tier content to get more efficient xp/hr rates

zealous dagger
#

i dont think thats really radical, its more removal of problematic mtx, and supplimenting the playstyle if it ends up being desired

#

people say they want it now, but its likely that actual data needs to back that up more. people instinctively reject change, but might end up enjoying the game more if actually incentivised to interact with the game

#

currently, its encouraged to interact less with a lot of skills, unfortunately

karmic shoal
#

True. But the problem with these items wasn’t necessarily their afkscape nature but how prevalent they were in the game due to MTX and how this surplus promoted a afkscape playstyle

#

Removing the MTX aspect and retuning the items as an ingame item still encourages gameplay and multi-skill interactions despite maintaining the afkscape methods (at lower xp/hr rates)

zealous dagger
#

Its a bit of both really. Its like, why fix one problem instead of both? There are a lot of problems with the way proteans are implimented, and id argue that theres little reason to reimpliment them. Instead, just fix the problems people have with actual methods instead of forcing this to be merely ok

undone zinc
#

I still think it's attitudes like this that are harming the game.

The idea that you have the right to complain about what someone else does or buys.

All things are earnable in game. Whatever someone else has, or uses, or buys has nothing to do with you and your have no right to complain about it.

You want to play the game slowly, go for it, feel free. If someone else wants to afk a lot of it fine. Somebody else wants to spend $5k on keys, let them. That money Jagex earns means we keep lower subscription prices as they would have had to raise them without the extra someone else willingly paid.

I think its people like the above few comments that will end up destroying the game, by getting rid of options for others, slowing training, and thereby causing more people to end up quitting when they can't get all 110s, quests, and achievements needed in less than many years.

If someone else uses protean items or portables, or pulse cores or anything else, it's none of your business, go do your thing, don't try to ruin it for everyone else.

light hound
#

Same could be said about this attitude
People using proteans means there is a much lower demand for skilling resources, which means skilling & pvm are less lucrative which in turn means it's harder to sustain your membership with bonds

undone zinc
# light hound Same could be said about this attitude People using proteans means there is a mu...

I keep hearing this statement, and it does have a little merit.

But.....the simple fact is the game is large, takes a great deal of time, and is complex.

What that means is the old methods of gather your own things and use them really don't work for most people anymore, they quit instead.

If it did still work you would see many more Irons than there are, yet very few people choose to make an Iron and do it the hard way.

I've been playing for 16+ years, 5.68 bill exp, done a lot of it the hard way. Actually did quit for 18 months. Most people I've known have in fact quit because the game takes to long and too much time. I don't feel doing too much to reduce that is the answer, but the foolish suggestions of making it worse still by killing what's already in game will cause more to qut.

rotund trout
#

And it will also cause people to come back

undone zinc
#

No it won't, if they wanted the old ways they would go to OSRS.

rotund trout
#

no

#

Because they aren't the same game

#

Or even close these days

#

They are both called runescape and have the same-ish gameworld. But totally different games

#

Because of how combat works and stuf

undone zinc
#

Agreed, they are not the same game. RS3 takes far more time and is very differnt.

What you see with new content or changes is a few people coming back for a short while then leaving again.

They don't stay.

rotund trout
#

But removing the harmful mtx items will cause some to quit. And others to come back

#

None of us know how many of both side there will be

light hound
#

There's 3 main reasons folks don't give RS3 a chance:

  • EoC combat
  • Complicated EoC interface
  • MTX

We know Jagex is working on the second point by looking into the new-player experience, they know it's a struggle.
And we know they're working on the third point (these experiments)
I don't know if there's a one-size-fits-most solution for the first point, but Mod Sponge (iirc?) was toying with the idea of simplifying combat so there's less basic abilities that can overwhelm folks (kinda like how Necromancy does it)

karmic shoal
hoary belfry
#

Resource processing is an important aspect in many mmo economies and it is how skillers and casual players make money
In guild wars 2 some of my friends don't like doing fractals or high end content so they're happy doing map events and selling materials for gold
In ffxiv you actively lose money doing high end content from resources like food buffs and potion buffs, I do crafting and gathering to make money and my own resources to burn in this content, and there's a support cycle where casuals make gear for raiders, who then sell mercenary kills where they give up on specific drops, usually to these casual players who get carried or quickly get what drop they want

karmic shoal
#

It’s the mentality that lets this type of behavior to continue is the problem

#

The game was merit based and that has been lost due to a decade of MTX abuse

hoary belfry
#

But they're entirely different games with different progression systems so it's not exactly a 1:1 example but point being
Proteans existing = less value for resources = less economy flow

karmic shoal
undone zinc
#

You all should have played the old Jagex game War of Legends.

To be a top player there you had to spend about US $600 a year. Worse you were forced to pay IRL money to buy it, the drop rates in game were so low you literally could not earn it.

What you're calling MTX here is nothing, especially since it's all optional.

You have no idea how good you have it in RS3 now.

karmic shoal
#

So?

undone zinc
#

So stop complaining

karmic shoal
#

Uh no?

hoary belfry
#

Just because things were shit in the past doesn't mean we can't complain for them to do better

rotund trout
#

And you and alot of other people seem to have no idea how ridiculous xp rates already are without all the mtx

karmic shoal
#

^

rotund trout
#

And nearly all skills already have an afkable method to train with

karmic shoal
#

Our xp/hr is miles better than osrs. And you don’t see them complaining when they chase for 200m

#

Which is exactly why we should abandon DXP

zealous dagger
#

And yeah, as an iron, everything is afkable. Not just most

#

Everything

karmic shoal
zealous dagger
#

Giving the option is catering.

karmic shoal
#

Not necessarily

zealous dagger
#

Thats exactly what it is.

karmic shoal
#

My earlier suggestion makes that option less optimal. And makes active gameplay necessary to access that option

#

It creates a hurdle to access it. To be catered to would be keeping the status quo

#

Which majority of the player base wants to distance from

zealous dagger
#

-shrugs- either way, as i keep saying, proteans bad, gameplay style thats desired isnt. Intentional design far better than bandaid fixes

#

But yeah, you'd struggle to find a skill that doesnt have a very afk method anyways

karmic shoal
#

We’ve got over 2 decades of resource accumulation, inflation, and surplus. Having a bad design turn into a resource sink without harming game health is a win win in my books

zealous dagger
#

Its not like proteans are even needed for that gameplay style.

#

Thats just trying to disguise a bad idea as a good one.

#

If a sink is needed, it can be added.

#

Forcing proteans isnt needed for that.

#

Nor is the gameplay style reliant on proteans.

light hound
karmic shoal
#

It’s not forcing proteans. It’s retuning them to a more acceptable format. Plus making their efficacy worse than it currently is, doesn’t promote protean use. It’s just an option that players can explore

zealous dagger
light hound
#

oh... Okay yeah I forgot about that, that's a good point

zealous dagger
#

Yeah, ill have a method for every skill too. I participate in afk a lot sometimes.

#

Even agility when all the mtx is taken out still has butterflies

karmic shoal
#

I thought butterflies was semi afk. Like you can’t chase the same butterfly indefinitely

zealous dagger
#

Its at least 5minute afk

karmic shoal
#

Oh true?

zealous dagger
#

True.

#

Its not ideal for me though, its a little close to those eyebeasts.

#

You walk in to their zone around once every 3 hours.

light hound
zealous dagger
#

Only when in a rush

#

I guess after ac loot nerfs

light hound
#

I'm one of those weirdos who's not really a fan of AG 😛 Can't really explain why, I just don't vibe with it

#

so using less charms for the same XP is a win for me personally

zealous dagger
#

The laser scares me

#

Ive done way hqrder content though

hoary belfry
#

I'm not really a fan of enrage bosses

undone zinc
#

Were any of you even playing back when things were like you're talking about?

Did you actually see it first hand?

Things were not better. I was playing before there was notepaper, portents, proteans, portables, and pulse cores. There wasn't even a GE when I started.

The afk time was 5 min.

Yew logs were the highest tree/log and a yew log sold for 1200 to 1350 GP ea.

Hatchet levels were lower, it took a lot longer to cut them and you had to physically run them to the bank.

Things were not better, you made far less GP, not more.

It took months to earn a million GP unless you got an Abysal Whip drop from the brand new Abysal demons, which most people couldn't even kill because of the high slayer level required.

Is that what you really want? To do everything yourself the hard way? Most of you really have no concept of just what that takes, or is, unless you have played an Iron.

zealous dagger
rotund trout
#

That's not even remotely what's being asked for

karmic shoal
#

Lol what?

zealous dagger
#

And no, it wasnt better back then

rotund trout
#

We're asking for the removal of silly mtx items

#

Not to undo the last 20 years of updates

karmic shoal
#

20+ year account here. I’ve played since classic. No one is asking for a universal iron man mode

undone zinc
#

MTX items pay for YOUR Game!

And you don't have to pay 25% to 50% more because others willingly do!

rotund trout
#

Yes and no

karmic shoal
#

Lol. Nah. MTX alters merit. It’s bad for the game. It shouldn’t exist

zealous dagger
#

Well, mtx is down, subs are more important to profit atm iirc

karmic shoal
#

Cosmetic MTX only

karmic shoal
#

That’s why they push premier

zealous dagger
#

Well, they are now. They wrent always

hoary belfry
#

The second reason they're even considering these experiments is because mtx revenue is going down and is becoming unsustainable

karmic shoal
#

I wouldn’t say MTX revenue being lower YoY isn’t the driving factor here. Its player count and attitude towards the game. Want longevity give a product that warrants that. They can easily break MTX revenues with cosmetic only purchases

hoary belfry
karmic shoal
#

Yup

zealous dagger
#

Its always profit

#

Thats the main reason

hoary belfry
#

Which is also part of profits

zealous dagger
#

Anything else os indirectly profit

#

Yeah

karmic shoal
#

Jagex has been profitable for years. I think they had YoY profits

zealous dagger
#

Ofc its profitable

#

Its about maximising profit

#

Thats the buisiness goal

karmic shoal
#

Yup

undone zinc
#

The new owners just paid over $1 billion for Jagex.

You prices are going up, period.

MTX brings in about 25% of their revenue now AFTER the price hike on yearly subscriptions. It was near 40% before the price hike.

If you keep complaining about the benign MTX in game now You, and all the rest of us will have to pay about 150% of what we pay now to keep developing the game.

I don't want to pay US $150 for three accounts a year do you?

If you say you do, then damm, just buy the MTX.

zealous dagger
#

Are you trying to fearmonger or something?

karmic shoal
#

You’re making some ridiculous fear mongering

#

The game has always been sold as a cheaper alternative MMO for people

light hound
undone zinc
#

Just reality, electricty costs money, developers cost money, England now has the highest cost electric in the world.

karmic shoal
#

Lol the hoops you’re trying to make people jump through

undone zinc
#

Got a finance degee, you?

#

MTX (25% of revenue) goes away one of two things happen.

They raise all our subscription prices or they fire people and compromise the game quality.

Which do you want?

karmic shoal
#

Don’t need a finance degree to have common sense. Rs3 isn’t a wow or ff level product. The sub price has always reflected that. Dropping the current bs MTX doesn’t mean prices go up. There’s a whole market of cosmetics the company has access to

#

Which players have voiced preference towards having direct purchase capabilities than what’s currently in place

hoary belfry
#

All of us here know that they won't 100% delete mtx, we are trying to suggest alternative means that keeps both sides happy
Direct purchase cosmetic mtx is generally accepted by the mmo industry, from what I've understood in these discussions over the past months quite a lot of people prefer the idea of dxp bombs and bxp over direct exp via lamps and proteans
There's also various issues with the game caused by certain forms of mtx so the objective is to prune out what is legitimately bad and find a happy compromise

undone zinc
rotund trout
#

This conversation isn't going anywhere

#

All we can do is just wait and see how it goes

hoary belfry
#

Guild wars 2 is buy to play with similar population to rs3 and osrs combined, a majority of their money comes from cosmetics

undone zinc
hoary belfry
#

Thank you

#

Different people have different thresholds on what is acceptable or not
For example in my opinion:

  • portables are okay, add in-game methods to procure them
  • dxp, dxp bombs and bxp are fine to me conceptually, they need to rework the pricing for bombs and bxp
  • proteans should absolutely be discontinued and adjust active and low effort/afk methods accordingly
lament summit
#

Bxp would be fine to sell if F2P could use them outside of DXP at like 20% rate.

karmic shoal
#

nah any buyable xp in any format is problematic. its literally what Squeal of Fortune started out as.

hoary belfry
karmic shoal
lament summit
#

Stuff like knowledge bombs, dxp and bxp still means the player would need to engage with activities (if we were to exclude stuff like proteans). Sure this affects supply, but so is demand.

karmic shoal
#

creates a major discrepancy

lament summit
#

Cool, less time need to be spent doing the same repetitive thing.

hoary belfry
#

Bonds exist on both games
You can sell bonds to finance high exp/hr high cost methods

#

Ignoring the ability to exchange bonds for keys or stufg

karmic shoal
#

yeah but were playing a game where our time spent playing the game has an associated merit. if people are able to just throw their wallet at the game and do half the work youre creating an environment that disincentives other players

#

the content from MTX has always been giving people the ability to bypass the grind. and it has a direct correlation with player count

#

if you recognize that as a primary factor that contributes poorly to game health maybe its probably best to not skirt around the issue and rip the bandaid off completely

karmic shoal
#

although bonds do have a pay to win perspective, its not making your grind any less time consuming.

lament summit
#

Except you now have 120M at your disposal, money you would've otherwise need to gather from somewhere else, which would've cost time.

karmic shoal
#

that gold isnt coming out of thin air. its being cycled from the economy

#

the XP is being earned in game as any person who would have received resources in game via trading

hoary belfry
#

Ngl I was about to make a comparison with other mmos because even though they sell skips many players choose to grind their way through but they have different audiences and systems and thinking about the nature of rs I'm starting to see validity in your perspective

karmic shoal
#

again im against bonds. but to compare them to the bonus xp/bombs or how TH functions is totally different.

hoary belfry
#

Fair enough

karmic shoal
#

also skips in other mmos are different, as they are expansion based games and alt account driven. RS3 isnt

hoary belfry
#

Technically xiv and warframe are aio

#

:bcestare:

lament summit
#

Alt account driven?

karmic shoal
#

yeah. in WoW youre encouraged to make alts

#

in runescape you arent as each account is supposed to function independently

lament summit
#

'supposed'

karmic shoal
hoary belfry
#

In guild wars 2 each class/style is their own character with their own progression, purchased cosmetics are shared across all characters and races, one of the major benefits of getting bis legendary gear is that you can use them on all characters
In xiv the expectation is AIO character but some people make raid alts, region alts or alt race alts

hoary belfry
karmic shoal
#

ah so there's still expansions

hoary belfry
#

There's a total of 5 expansions, free trial upto lv70 is base game + heavensward and stormblood
Buying the latest expac lets you gain access to shadowbringers, endwalker and dawntrail

zealous dagger
hoary belfry
# hoary belfry

This is my character and I can play as any combat job for content without making a new character

#

Unlike RS the primary progression to access content is the main story which takes like 300-400 hrs to get through

karmic shoal
# hoary belfry There's a total of 5 expansions, free trial upto lv70 is base game + heavensward...

so yeah thats kinda my point. with expansions the game is encouraging players to "catch up" with their skips as each expansion is just the game starting over again. Like in WoW you may get skips and stuff, but when you skip youre just back at square 1 with the new expansion. Im assuming with FFXIV the skips are just a convenience for alts to experience other aspects of the game. runescape has never been an expansion game, and any skips reduce other player experiences and merit.

#

as your square 1 is literally getting off tutorial island (RIP)

hoary belfry
#

Guild wars 2 also lets you skip characters to level 80 but the main progression post level 80 can't be bought by money

karmic shoal
#

^

lament summit
#

And Runescape does that nowadays with Arch / Necro requirement having more than just xp / levels.

hoary belfry
shell obsidian
# undone zinc Got a finance degee, you?

Jagex has plenty with financial degrees, and it led to the CEO go on video saying things like

"Monetisation is harming runescape"

"it presents a real risk to the ability for the game to sustain itself and to have a growing community"

"bluntly, our population is not really growing."

#

Staying on the current path is not a financial sound move. The game is shrinking, stopping the bleed is critical if jagex want to have RS3 as a revenue source for the future.

#

Thing is, you've made a few claims. Firstly, MTX isn't 25% of jagex income, its less. Secondly, monetisation wouldn't cease as an income source, because cosmetics and bonds for sure as staying, and those make up a decent chunk of MTX income for jagex.

#

The "well this means subs will go up by 25%" is something you've created whole cloth, Jagex is making no such claims and instead say the goal is to grow the community long term.

#

We're not talking about a steady income source here, we're talking about a rapidly shrinking, volatile source of income that is actively cannibalising their main source of revenue

#

Doubly so when Europe is actively looking at digital legislation, and several sources have reported that includes lootboxes. And that there are parties that have proposed outright ban. And Jagex say in their latest financial they've monitored lootbox legislation in several markets, so they should be aware of this.

karmic shoal
neat ridge
#

This is actually good, i am actually going out to skill during double xp instead of staying at the ge slashing dummies and using protean, this experiment made me realize i have become accustomed to using the dummies and proteans and lamps and portables alot, that it created this like "easy fast leveling addiction like thing?" for me, and so kinda reduced exploration for me as well, instead of going out to fight different monsters, i have 100s of combat dummies i can use instead, and they don't fight back, i don't have to worry about carrying some food with me to heal, and have easy access to a bank and the exchange while skilling, it was all so very convenient. And as someone who has played runescape since 2007 def feels a lilttle disheartening that i got sucked into this mtx mess, but feel good again now to do the real grind like in the good ol days

undone zinc
#

@shell obsidian I was slight off, MTX was 23% of Jagex revenue in 2023 which is the last year I have financials for ATM.

If Jagex stops all MTX Subscription prices will go up, or the game will fold, or people will be fired.

You can't lose 23% of your revenue and not take a hit. Which is exactly what I said.

Do they take a smaller hit if only stop selling TH keys? Maybe, but maybe a lot more than you think. It's not Jagex that sells bonds to buyers in game, its other players that have bought them with IRL money.

Surprisingly the people that spend IRL money to buy bonds to sell to others are the very same players who will drop 5k on TH keys.......imagine that, the people with a lot of disposable income buy both.

If they can't get some advantage anymore because TH MTX was removed exactly how long do you expect them to keep playing and keep purchasing bonds to sell? People who spend money to get ahead on gold in game by selling bonds to others ALSO want to speed things up in other ways, which has been TH keys so far. Many of them won't continue buying bonds at the same level, or at all, without some MTX like TH.

Jagex_2023_Revenue.jpg
shell obsidian
#

MTX fell by 5.5m further

#

sub went up

formal flicker
#

I honestly don’t want to play anymore with these changes. I used to buy yearly membership to just play here and there and the item boosts and such were very nice for a very casual player

#

Now I really really have to grind when I don’t have time for that

undone zinc
# shell obsidian we got 2024 financial

Simple fact is the people who by the bonds to sell to others are the ones who also buy massive amounts of TH keys.....they go so does the IRL money Jagex gets from selling bonds.

shell obsidian
#

Also what is your 123412590 number from. Its not subs + mtx in your pic, its below that

#

Last year, MTX was 16.3% of MTX+Sub revenue. And 15.2% of total revenue.

Of which, it is

  1. Shrinking

  2. One of the biggest markets in the world is looking at regulating and potentially banning part of this revenue within next couple of years

#

And thats all MTX systems put together

#

any individual system is an even smaller portion of the pie

#

In said financial, Jagex also highlights how RS3 is losing subscribers, and we know from survey numbers of Jagex (which we've been told is the biggest response from lapsed players ever that majority of former players think MTX is an active detriment to the game

#

and a huge chunk of current players

#

How small a portion of your income can something that cannibalise other income get, before you start reconsidering said thing? Because odds are we've hit that threshold for Jagex to consider cutting something like TH.

#

We don't know how big a portion of MTX is TH, runecoins, bonds, or any other mtx sytem

#

But we know for sure that together they're not 25%, and certainly no single one of them

elfin pond
#

So i am wondering then based on numbers if this is more of a "how can jagex makr mtx better and increase their revenue " sort of thing which might be where the experiments are. Also as i think Kobra said earlier the EU legislation is cracking down on online stuff lately which could be contributing to this

undone zinc
#

You have to subtract the MTX revenue out of toatl before you take the percentage.

It's MTX / Revenue without MTX = Percent

128,367,433 / 23,060,348 = 17.96%

That's all of MTX includint TH and Bonds

shell obsidian
shell obsidian
undone zinc
#

Yes it is. You can't double count the MTX revenue in the calc.

shell obsidian
#

At least if you want to illustrate how big a portion of their revenue it is

elfin pond
shell obsidian
#

You said its 23% of Jagex revenue. That is revenue for the company, not revenue without MTX.

elfin pond
#

I calculate mtx to be 15% of their revenue last year if i did that right

undone zinc
#

23%v was for 2023, you just provided the 2024 numbers and according to the 2024 numbers Jagex got 23,060,348 from MTX and that is 17.96% of the non MTX revenue they got for 2024.

shell obsidian
#

consider using that method for anything other figure

If I subtracted subcription revenue from total revenue, with same logic I'd go that subcriptions make 359.8% of jagex revenue

#

which is... a nonsensical thing to say

undone zinc
#

??? WTF are you subtracting Sub revenue for?

shell obsidian
#

If you can "subtract the mtx revenue and then compare mtx to total revenue without mtx" to give what you previously said was percentage of their revenue

#

Then you can subtract the subcription revenue and compare subscription to total revenue without subscription

#

its just not a very useful figure

#

You said earlier it was 23% of their total revenue, you forgot to mention the asterisk that you had subtracted mtx from the total revenue sum beforehand

#

Which means what you presented were misleading

elfin pond
#

Hmm i think i am starting to understand why they are asking in these experiments if their revenue was only 15% last year

shell obsidian
#

Yes. Masters degree from the top uni in my country. Comp Sci, though I aced every math class I've ever had.

elfin pond
#

Nice a fellow computer math person 😄 though i didn't get a masters

light hound
#

@undone zinc Stop with the personal attacks

shell obsidian
#

You said this

#

They wouldn't be losing 23% of their revenue

#

you only got that figure by subtracting things before dividing

#

Thats... not a correct way to show percentage of total revenue

#

At least say what you've done beforehand, because otherwise you mislead everyone involved

gentle python
#

Jagex investors are most likely using these experiments to figure out the path they want to take the game. It's no scret thr game has been losing players for years. Content creators as well have also been leaving the game, and the biggest problem cited everytime is MTX. That being said, they see that they basically have two options:

Option a) They remove MTX, focusing instead on a long effort to work on the game's content and build the playbase back up. Follow in the steps of OS.
Option b) They figure it's not worth it and focus on the MTX users. They cut the dev team, allocating some to OS and letting even more go (they already have to an extent). They stop developing content like Amascut and exclusively focus on content to keep the whales willing to put thousands into the game to work towards. Game runs a skeleton crew dedicated to extending the treadmill and TH promos.

shell obsidian
#

They've said so far they're aiming for option a). I hope they're pursuing that in the end.

gentle python
#

Personally, and I'm sure many others would prefer the former. The game focuses on content for the game itself. Jagex higher ups aren't going to make content for players that don't exist.

#

But people aren't going to come back with MTX being in the room

shell obsidian
#

Specifically in 2023 it was 18.7% of their total revenue, and it fell to 15.2% in 2024

#

given that it has fallen every year other than pandemic years of 2020/2021 since... I think 2017?

#

They expect MTX income to fall further I am very sure

elfin pond
#

I personally would like to see the game be more friendly to those that can't be online for long periods of time. The game doesn't feel casual to me anymore

shell obsidian
#

We don't know how big a portion any individual system is of said figure

undone zinc
#

It's losing players because of the size, complexity, and amount of time it takes to "complete".

It's not getting former players back because in their minds they remember hanging out with their friends bossing GWD1, getting an Abysal Whip that was a million GP drop, all for $5 a month.

When most returning players spend a few weeks/months back and realize how long it's going to take to get all 110s they quit again.

shell obsidian
#

You say that but people who would return know that rs is a grind heavy game

undone zinc
#

But they don't stay, nobody is forcing anyone to buy MTX, people knock it all day and point to that as the "reason" they don't stay.

Which completely igonres that nobody is forced to buy anything but membership. It's a false flag, people who say it's MTX are just finding a handy excuse to blame. They were never forced to buy anything extra.

shell obsidian
#

I know several former players that are very interested in these experiments

#

And given these numbers, they're not alone

undone zinc
#

Nice numbers, they won't stay.

shell obsidian
#

I just don't get the sticking head in the sand, given how badly MTX has very visible hurt player numbers before. Not after Hero Pass saw a huge player walkaway just a few years ago.

shell obsidian
# undone zinc Nice numbers, they won't stay.

So the premise is then that RS3 will just shrink forever, trying to bring in any new or former players is a futile errand?

Thats not a very hopeful future for the game. Or a future at all.

undone zinc
#

Now you're getting the point!

shell obsidian
#

I mean at that point I don't really get why you're even here arguing

#

Is the premise that RS3 is a dead game walking and the only good option is to milk it until the very end?

#

Do you just not like the game?

undone zinc
#

Most of the 63% of people above that you posted that said they would be likely to return if no MTX are the very same people who have already quit and briefly returned 3 or 4 times allready.

IRL do you believe people who have let you down 3 or 4 times already? You may like them, might be friends, but you sure don't trust that they will do what they say.

shell obsidian
#

Those people were let down by Jagex, not the other way around

undone zinc
#

Got to get new people in, I don't see that happening without some way of speeding up Characters progress, be that MTX, better exp rates, or whatever.

Most people are not going to spend 3 to 5 years grinding a RS character and only be halfway in the game.

shell obsidian
#

If anything these are people that have done exactly what they said. And voted with their wallet.

shell obsidian
#

So that has already failed

elfin pond
#

I'm wondering if Jazz x's argument is out with the old in with the new

shell obsidian
#

People say oh we gotta get new people in, meanwhile ORS is actually getting new people in

#

without doing any of these things

#

strange. Why is the speeding up and MTX not working, but not doing these things working?

undone zinc
#

So change the strategy but getting rid of lamps, stars, proteans won't help either unless you replace it with faster, easier, progress.

shell obsidian
#

Maybe because people don't want to play a game that has cheap mobile-esque monetisation systems in their game

#

at least not the audience that want to consider giving a runescape game a go

glad crystal
shell obsidian
#

The premise of this is that oh, a new audience will materialize and thus these systems are good

#

How many years do we have to run this without said audience materialising before we realise its not there?

#

The only thing those systems have done is give the game a toxic name that people don't even think about trying out

#

Thing is we have thousands of games with faster progress. Most games are. There are niches for those players.

undone zinc
#

A game you can pay for completely with in game money?

Nobody is forced to to buy any extra, if anything the price of bonds is what's killing the game, too hard for most to get the GP because few know how to actually make enough GP.

shell obsidian
#

RS occupy the space where the interest is in a long term progression game

#

Then adds systems that undermine itself to capture an audience that has shown themselves disinterested

#

and now hang in an inbetween state

#

If you want people that actually don't stay. Its not the former players. Its the players you try to incentivize to play with even faster progression.

#

those abandon the game much faster

#

OSRS is hugely successful because it capitalised on being one of the very few long-form progression games, and doubled down on said identity by avoiding things that undermine that

undone zinc
#

It's not MTX killing the game, it's the bond price.

People just blame MTX because they don't really understand why bond prices are so high and they are upset at the "costs" and transfer that upset to MTX because it's the most visible money aspect in game.

Mst people I know really struggle to make the bond price in 2 weeks, it's not the MTX that they can choose not to buy.

shell obsidian
#

No its not. Its TH that is hated.

#

I see your edit. Most people I know that have ever played just fucking hate TH.

#

I rarely hear them talking about bonds at all.

#

Anyways, fun thing. TH is propping up bond prices because they can be redeemed for keys. One leads to the other.

glad crystal
#

Bond prices are high because of necromancy, actually i think the thing that's keeping prices low right now is osrs since the value ratio of gold between the games doesn't really change unless significant inflation happens

shell obsidian
#

I don't get why its beating around the bush like oh people don't really hate MTX and they're actually upset at -insert other thing-

#

No people are actually talking about what they dislike

#

Completely truthful with no misunderstanding

#

Its not hard to grasp

#

People hate TH because TH undermine the core gameplay loop of the game and makes progression feel worthless, in a game thats all about progression

#

Its that simple

#

Bond prices is a very minor thing in the grand scheme of things

#

Idk how it would be the main issue

undone zinc
#

I know people think that, after TH is gone they will find other things to complain about and most that come back will drop out again.

Most don't think about it very much, TH is easy to blame because people get jealous thinking that other people can "buy" progress when they can't.

In reality what somebody else does in game has little to no effect on you (save for those jerks at Fort with the constant visual trash) but hey "it's not fair!" (it is, but that's not how people are raised these days).

What is truely tragic about this is that the jealous people don't really understand there would be no bonds at all to purchase in GE without those whales who purchase TH keys (and bonds to sell to others for gold).

So by all means get rid of TH, best start looking for someone else to blame now though.

elfin pond
#

I know OSRS has a charm that is keeping its player base a float and i guess it comes down to what that charm is

undone zinc
elfin pond
#

A lot less to finish? Not sure i understand. OSRS is extremely grindy and isn't a short finish by any stretch of the imagination

undone zinc
#

I've been playing for 16+ years, 5.68 bill exp, over 28k Runescore and I'm not close to finished.

You trying to say you couldn't finish OSRS if you put that much effort into it? Might be, I don't play OSRS.......but it seems you could finish that easier.

glad crystal
#

you could get 120 in an rs3 skill quite a fair amount quicker than you could get 99 in an osrs skill

i don't know what your definition of "finished" is, but it definitely takes longer to do so in osrs almost irregardless of that

zealous dagger
undone zinc
#

Say Master Completionist cape and Reaper Crew Acheivment? That would be prety finished.

zealous dagger
#

The game has less content, but lower rates on basically everythinf

#

Clogging is basically the comp equivalent.

#

And noone has that completed

glad crystal
#

comp and especially trim comp is a bunch of mindless grinds that osrs emulates very well with its collection logs

undone zinc
#

Well, I wouldn't know lol, haven't finished RS3 yet either but I get your point that OSRS is also a hard grind to get everything done.

zealous dagger
#

Yeah, i wouldnt say osrs is necessarily faster osrs is necessarily faster or slower really.

shell obsidian
#

collection logs in OSRS are pretty insane

zealous dagger
#

But it definitely feels longer.

shell obsidian
#

and given xp/rate is slower in OSRS in some regards 120s are similar to 99s in OSRS

zealous dagger
#

Yeah, i usually compare osrs 99s to 120s.

#

Its not that accurate, but more accurate than comparing 99.

#

110 might be it.

#

Rs3 has way more content, but more of that content is very skippable.

#

I like both games around equal

undone zinc
#

To be honest what I would like to see on MTX is a choice when you start your character to opt in or out.

People who don't opt in would never see any MTX and therefore wouldn't know to complain about it.

Seems like a perfect solution to me, you don't like it, don't choose it. But of course that wouldn't work because you already don't have to use TH or other extra purchases now either.

Choose:

  1. No MTX but can use GE, trade etc.

  2. Ironman.

  3. Regular account, get daily tasks and keys, can buy more.

zealous dagger
#

What purpose does that serve though?

#

Over a toggle that can be changed anytime?

#

Why lock an account to the choice?

undone zinc
#

It would stop the whining over MTX. "If you never see it it doesn't exist".

zealous dagger
#

Im sure it would only make people complain more.

#

Because the mtx items will still exist, and loads of people wojt know what they'll want till they experience the game.

#

And now they need to change settings to see what the one they didnt choose is like.

elfin pond
zealous dagger
#

yeah, its mostly the we have more achievements here to show progress, where osrs doesnt

#

theres a guy i was talking to that took around 10 months playing solidly to get a single ultrarare from raids to have BiS

#

and still had sidegrades to get

slate depot
#

I read most of the discussion between you and kobra and it seemed like an awful lot of words to come down to the core disagreement that kobra thinks that MTX changes would result in a noticeable improvement in player count and you don't, which is how you reach your different conclusions

shell obsidian
#

or at least stop the decline

slate depot
#

sure I'm comparing to a counterfactual of no change

gentle python
#

Removing MTX will definitely increase player count, but it isn't going to lead to an explosion. The game needs some real work but those kinds of updates aren't going to have the same impact nor reach anyone if MTX is still around in it's current fashion

shell obsidian
#

Yeah game for sure needs other stuff to improve

#

The UI is the big obvious thing

#

But largely anything else pale in comparison to MTX in how the game is perceived.

gentle python
#

Also this notion that anyone who doesn't want MTX should just go play OS is missing that the two games are different games and can scratch different itches

shell obsidian
#

I'm interested in how many leagues will draw in. If its a lot, jagex would be clever to have MTX changes sooner rather than later.

slate depot
#

my strong hope is that there is a basic attack for triangle styles before leagues

gentle python
#

They are very similar, and OS is the closest thing to RS3. Way more than WoW or XIV. However they can still both be popular

slate depot
#

I doubt it will happen

gentle python
slate depot
#

but if leagues attracts new/returning players the poor pacing of early combat will just be exacerbated

shell obsidian
gentle python
#

I think that'll make a lot of people enjoy the combat system more since it won't ve fighting the tick system

shell obsidian
#

IIRC they said on the game health stream they're aware of some badly balanced encounters and mentioned specifically in relation to leagues

#

so maybe we'll see some combat stuff happen alongside leagues

gentle python
#

The tick rate is slow but it doesn't have to feel that way if everything is on that consistent rhythym

slate depot
shell obsidian
#

because now with leagues being clearly the big sept update its what... october? november?

slate depot
gentle python
#

Really wish they would start polling stuff in game

#

They literally have the tab for it and everything

slate depot
#

I do not want to see polling in rs3, our player base is a lot more fragmented than old school

#

it's like the pvp issue except it's low effort/afkers vs people who enjoy gameplay in their video games

zealous dagger
#

polling isnt really a good thing

#

it seems good, but the people generally dont know what makes a good game, and are easily convinced by streamers/youtubers, which removes most of the democratic portion of voting, as people parroting a content creator is not a legitimate vote.

shell obsidian
#

Depends on where the threshold is

#

What was last polls? The trim req ones?

zealous dagger
#

i dont think it really does.

shell obsidian
#

All got majority yes but 100% zammy on trim didn't get a supermajority so didn't get added.

zealous dagger
#

the most convincing streamer winning most polls isnt a good thing

shell obsidian
#

Tbh i think people overstate the streamer issue

zealous dagger
#

and why is that?

shell obsidian
#

Most time I see people accuse people of having gained an opinion from streamers its just common opinions

zealous dagger
#

i think you understate how much influencers influence people

shell obsidian
#

I've been accused of getting opinions from streamers and I never watch any

#

Just for holding a specific stance

zealous dagger
#

people very rarely state that a content creator convinced them

#

because then they'd be telling you its not their opinion

#

theres no pride in that

#

i think most people are like that. not consciously or with any malice

shell obsidian
#

I generally think its the other way around

popular stance happen -> creators get involved -> people watch creators that parrot opinions they already held

zealous dagger
#

but people are 'very' easily influenced. without getting political, its very prominent in the world atm

#

sometimes.

#

like, it can be fine

#

but its potential to remove democracy from votes is so bad that it makes it a bad decision

#

its wont effect every poll. but it could steer the game in a way the people dont really want, even if they think they do at the time

slate depot
#

I think targeted pollings is fine

#

I think polling people with 25k runescore on trim reqs is kinda ok

zealous dagger
#

yeah, i can agree with that

#

problem is when you lump in loads of people that dont actually know much that are being convinced a lot of the time

icy cliff
#

People are allowed to have opinions. And those opinions are allowed to be the same as popular streamers.

Saying that someone's opinion is bad/wrong just because it's the same as a streamer's is quite the take. Chances are good that there are bound to be many people with the same opinion on things....Because oftentimes you can only have so many FINITE variations of opinions on a specific subject

zealous dagger
#

That experience could be flawed, and likely is to some degree which is usually fine.

#

But suddenly one persons experience, instead of being one vote, is now the size of their audience.

#

Thats bad

icy cliff
#

But you might not be able to tell the difference between genuine opinion and someone who is just parroting something they heard unless you could read their minds.

So, while this may be an interesting thought experiment, it's not really something you can do to combat it.

zealous dagger
#

And thats the problem.

icy cliff
#

I think R3 has a problem with retaining new players. You will need the opinion of new players in order to figure out what they want to keep them.

Asking veterans about the new player experience isn't going to be much help

zealous dagger
#

Yet disproportionate opinion changes after content creators convincing people does show it can be damaging.

#

The fact that people can be convinced to vote for things they dont have experience on means that some people have much more of a say on what content goes into the game than others, which defeats the purpose of democracy

#

And this is without considering the fact that players are not game developers, and rarely know what is good for the game. Great at identifying problems in game feel. Bad at steering it in the right direction

icy cliff
#

To play devil's advocate here, though:

It doesn't matter if the devs think they know what's good for their game; if players don't stay, than the game will wither and die. The point of a video game is for the players to have fun. If that is not occurring and players are not staying, then the dev's opinion on what to do ultimately doesn't matter.

#

Unless the dev was only ever making the game for themselves, of course

zealous dagger
#

Oh, absolutely. My point is that the devs likely have a better idea than the players.

#

They have the data, research and vision.

#

The players have a missmatched bunch of naivity, barely know what they what, and sometimes dont know why they even play, even if its fun.

#

But that doesnt mean we arnt valuable

icy cliff
#

Ah, I think I see what you meant now

zealous dagger
#

The devs streams, as a way to collab together and steer the game is great

#

I mean a few things i guess, but im bad with words

icy cliff
zealous dagger
#

Lol, totally relate. I have adhd as well.

gentle python
#

Devs 100% have better ideas than players. Players are generally terrible at designing anything close to good. That being said, players are really good at voicing what they don't like

zealous dagger
#

Yeah, we're great at knowing when something is wrong

#

But thats usually a post launch opinion lol

gentle python
#

Tbf I'm not saying there should be any poll like "What would you like?". Just rather, here's something we'd like to add and here's how it works, would you like these changes?

zealous dagger
#

The problem is, we likely wont know till its in

#

In a lot of cases

#

And loads will vote selfishly, expecting that dev time go elsewhere

icy cliff
gentle python
#

There might be some changes that are necessary cause of some factor we just don't really see, I'm just thinking about stuff like "Oh, we'd like to go over repair costs here are some ways we might like balance them"

zealous dagger
#

Yeah, polls on what weve experienced in the teats would be great.

#

But generally, not at all

#

Yeah, its like, post launch feedback is the best place for this stuff. We launched this. Are rewards good? Is it too hard? Is it fun?

gentle python
#

As far as I'm concerned, the MTX experiments are for the integrity of the game and I completely agree with them. I was more refering to like before they begin working on content. So instead of coming out with like a whole new activity or like reworking something, pitch stuff first and then go ahead with it before going through all of the dev work to implement it.

#

This isn't really related to the MTX experiments directly so it's a bit of a tangent. Just responding after some combat changes were being talked about and I suggested they do some polling

glad crystal
# shell obsidian The UI is the big obvious thing

whenever i ask somebody why they don't play rs3, 99% of the time its one of 4 or 5 reasons, listed below in no particular order

  • EoC, this is kind of the identity of rs3 so i don't really see it changing, but legacy combat improvements would be welcome to allow those want osrs-style combat to enjoy themselves in a more modern game
  • UI, the ui is a disaster and this is a massive point of improvement for the game if it can be cleaned up
  • PvP, i doubt there's any chance of reviving the rs3 pvp scene to be on the level of the osrs one, and i personally don't want resources diverted away from other content to facilitate it, but it remains a reason
  • MTX, namely treasure hunter, you already know why its bad and needs to go
  • some variance of non-combat gameplay discomfort, everybody has their own little pet peeves that they feel is preventing them from enjoying playing the game, everybody has different solutions for this including but not limited to more rewarding afk, less rewarding afk, runelite-style plug in hub, improvements to the one or two activities that really annoy them, the list goes on and on
clear cedar
#

I don't think EoC is the identity of RS but it's quite ingrained into the combat and the rewards of combat

#

So it's pretty hard to deal with even if most people who try it don't like it, even less than the combat system before EoC (which was also technically hated)

#

Combat is the worst part of OSRS, compared to other games

#

So that's why they made EoC

#

Although EoC made combat more involved, it's still the worst part of RS

#

My main gameplay discomfort is the glacial tickrate

undone zinc
#

@glad crystal You're right the UI could use improving for sure but it is highly customizable.

Advanced settings, use Game View, set your game window to partial size of whole screen then place your chat, backpack, action bars, map, etc. on the edges of your screen outside that Game View.

I was upset when they killed RS3 PvP as I'd made my living in the wild for 4 years with Wyrmbands. Got stopped at 4,633 Pk's, didn't make it to 5k. Got killed a fair bit too lol.

But honestly, now I don't want it back. Maybe in a dedicated space you have to choose to enter? But not in the normal game. PvP brought a lot of problems for those not experienced with the wild. RS3 PvP was a tank test that you had to use full manual and ability stall to do well at.

One MTX I would gladly pay for is "extra" presets and more than 5 ability bars on screen.

Jagex used to sell both as extras for bonds and I'd bought all of them. We get a lot now for free, I would support them selling a few extra ones to those that want to purchase.

zealous dagger
#

EoC combat is part of the identity of the game now

hoary belfry
#

The issue with rs3 PvP is that there's no rewards for casuals to come participate
In osrs you can get rune pouch via LMS
In ffxiv you get tons of costumes for PvP currency and there's a 72-man PvP daily that also lets you level jobs you don't like playing in pve or just additional xp source, also has a built in battlepass
In gw2 you can get various upgrades such as removing weapon locks for the various specialisations which opens up build customisablity, you can tune your dailies to be PvP oriented, you can get resources that can be used to craft bis gear

#

So it's hunter vs hunted

clear cedar
zealous dagger
#

The combat system should be replaced?

#

Idk about that.

#

Doubt many people would want it changed much

elfin pond
#

i feel pvp worlds should come back. i thought that was a good compromise for people who play purely for killing others vs those that just want to pvm

fallen totem
#

what a horrible weekend, I hate the removal of MTX

zealous dagger
#

yeah, the potential is pretty low for pvp, but id like it to have another strong attempt at coming back. it likely has the demand, just requires a lot of balance, and a reward system (likely just ranked and ironically, cosmetics) to keep people interested.

clear cedar
zealous dagger
#

no, it didnt

#

i think the first pvp worlds was darkscape, which was a lot of fun

#

but that was a seperate mode with seperate progression

elfin pond
#

They did for a bit. The worlds were limited to edgeville, ge and wilderness. You couldn't explore anywhere else though. I feel if they opened it up fully it would help a lot

zealous dagger
#

Thats not really the same though, was just bounty hunter the game mode

elfin pond
#

it wasn't bounty hunter though. they were actually listed as pvp worlds

karmic moat
# mystic canyon That "content" was pretty dull though. I doubt many people are upset about that.

I liked it and the titles now being buyable for a few teci devalued them completely
but I understand the need to move forward and since very few people were playing it, I understand why it was removed
tbh that will likely be the fate of a lot of minigames, people are only playing them because they want some runescore achievements or need the rewards like skill outfits and then never come back for the minigame as such
that includes fist of guthix (is there any reason to go there other than the music track?), the Burthorpe games room (yes there's a clue step but otherwise it's dead), the prayer minigame with Ysondria, or the one in the runecrafting guild

#

content should be played for the content being fun, interesting, rewarding - not for some "it's the only way to tick this achievement off and we're not ever going back once we get it" idea

lament summit
elfin pond
#

I do miss the pest control game

mystic canyon
stuck locust
rotund trout
#

I could do the minigame immediatly and then enjoy the benefits without having to do all the steps to unlock gwd

clear cedar
stuck locust
coral shale
undone zinc
# coral shale Same 🙁

People still play Pest Control when it's on Spotlight for Thayler. Most times enough to keep games going on the top level boat.

I have a similar issue with Barbarian Assault. Can't get enough people to play to get the achievements.

I'm sure most won't agree but I'd buy a bond in game to skip/fill "group" achievements that are very hard to get from lack of interest in the minigame. I know, bad idea.................

coral shale
#

I just genuinely enjoyed the engagement with likeminded players there just for the fun of it.

shell obsidian
#

I do wonder if, with MTX changes, minigames can find a niche again

#

most minigames would need a buff, though Barb Assault would be instantly catapulted into meta for agility/mining/firemaking if there was nothing like silverhawks without any changes to it

karmic shoal
undone zinc
#

There is one MTX change I can think of that might help?

Bond prices IRL are US $9

Premier membership was raised to US $99. That's equivalent to 11 bonds.

Yearly membership buying with bonds in game 20 if you buy all at once and roughly 23 if you buy one at a time.

Rebalance the bond's in game to 30 days of membership.

12 bonds for almost a year mem.

Initially that would seem to lower Jagex revenue. But I think more people would play, and continue to play, if they didn't have to scramble so hard to earn bond money in 14 days. Enough to offset lower bond sales? I think so, might even increase them.

Thoughts?

clear cedar
#

yeah bond redeem value has been incorrect for 12 years for some reason

#

support

slate depot
#

it's complex

#

my impression is that far more players try and maintain membership via bonds than it's really a good idea for

#

what the appropriate premium on bond membership vs cash membership is is probably just a data question

zealous dagger
#

It'd probably be good to do though

undone zinc
#

Yes, bond prices might go up. But if fewer bonds were needed (lower demand) it would be harder for people selling them to raise the price in the GE.

I'd also thought of an in game bond store. One that Jagex would run.

Jagex wouldn't make any money on a bond store but if they sold a very limited amount at a fixed gold piece price they could keep bond prices down.

If bonds were changed to 30 days membership for one bond a bond store might sell just one to a player every 4 months for say 100 million?

If players only got one of four bonds from a store they would still buy the other three, allowing a market for them. And market price would be higher than 100 million but having the bond store would tend to constrain the GE price.

Only other way I see addressing the cost of membership in bonds is for Jagex to cap the GE price bond could sell for.

zealous dagger
#

the only difference would be that you can no longer buy 2 weeks of bond time, only 30 days, reducing your options

undone zinc
#

Bond prices are not "set" by anyone person, you just can't put one in the market and sell it for whatever price you want.

The number of people wanting to buy a bond, and how desperate they are to buy it (hit the +5% or +20%), is what determines the price.

They might go up a bit, and yes they will go up during events people use bonds to get the latest swag, but if fewer bonds are needed it will keep prices down, not raise them.

Example, I do buy bonds for my Alts. GE mid was 124 + million each.

I thought ahead and put in an order to buy a bond before I needed it for 118 mill. I thought I would have to leave it in overnight, maybe even raise the offer a million or so. It bought within 15 minutes.

I posted my bond buy price within minutes to a Discord server concerned with prices and said it bought in 15 minutes, so offer less. A few thousand people read that. People posted bond buys at 117 mill by the next day.

Same server, GE bond price mid was 120 million, a few people got a bond at 113 million each. Price was slowly rising back to the 124 million level but people were able to buy at 115 mill area.

zealous dagger
hoary belfry
#

The pricing issue is exacerbated by the fact that RS3 is pretty obtuse with price history directly from the game

zealous dagger
#

increase the amount of time, the value itself doesnt change, and will immediately jump to the new time vs gp value

hoary belfry
#

In ffxiv I can see transaction history of various items on my server even years ago
Osrs has plugins
Gw2 also has price history

zealous dagger
#

rs3 has history via wiki doesnt it?

#

just not in game

hoary belfry
#

Ya but that's more long term trends than useful in the immediate need

#

Like

#

It's more for analysis than useful to the average player to determine the worthwhile price

undone zinc
#

No it won't, bonds are used for several things, including Runecoins.

More importantly there are THREE parties involved not two.

Jagex sells the bond for IRL money to a player.

That player tries to sell the bond on the GE, they can ask for any price they want to but if they ask too much it wont sell.

Another player wants a bond and puts in an offer to buy on the GE, instantly if they need it now, at mid or lower if they're ok with it taking a while to buy.

If it were just two parties involved the seller might have more leverage to price high.

For example, if only Jagex sold bonds for GP (they won't they dont need GP) they could list them on the GE for whaterver they wanted and people would have to pay it or not get a bond.

But it's not just two parties. If I bought bonds with IRL money and listed them to sell on the GE at 250 mill each, they would still be there next years because other players who want to sell bonds are fine with selling them at 100 mill each. They would buy them and sell at whatever they could get while mine were still on the GE.

hoary belfry
#

Ngl I simply don't like the fact that stuff like recent price history is 'offloaded' to third party discords who usually have a vested interest in manipulating prices

zealous dagger
#

the main thing you arnt considering.. bond prices are mostly determined by osrs.

#

which is only game time

#

since.. bonds are linked to most games, most bonds are generated and traded there... yeah, its tied mostly to time vs cost

#

well, $ cost to gp for supply, and gp cost vs time for demand

#

jagex would double the cost per bond in that case 100%

#

not saying its a bad idea to have 30 day bonds, its just not really changing much.

undone zinc
# hoary belfry Ngl I simply don't like the fact that stuff like recent price history is 'offloa...

Well I agree with you as do the others in the Discord.

Most things are bought or sold within 5% of whatever the current buy price is. We basically put in a buy offer a few percent below current sales price and wait over time to buy.

That is healthy for the GE and you as well.

It allows you to instant sell something if you're willing to sell it 3% to 5% cheaper instead of having to leave your sell offer in for hours or days.

It also means that there is stock of most items to be bought in the GE if your willing to pay that 3% to 5% more to get it instantly.

It's exactly the same as a Grocery Store warehouse or a Market Maker on a stock exchange.

It might cost the grocery store an extra 2% to get it from a warehouse than it would direct from the farmer, but the farmer might not have it at all, while the warehouse does because they deal with many farmers.

What others try to do is evil, they buy a bunch of an item and when they have a lot they go tell all their "friends" (you are not their friend you are their mark) to go buy that item. That drives the price up and the people that started it quietly sell out to their "friends) as the price rises. The friends get stuck with overpriced items they can only sell at a loss.

That's called "merching" and it's wrong, don't participate, and if you hear someone telling you that you should buy it cause its going way up you should think about the fact that you're the mark, not a friend.

undone zinc
# zealous dagger the main thing you arnt considering.. bond prices are mostly determined by osrs.

I know a lot of people think Jagex sets bond prices in GP but they don't.

You said "jagex would double the cost per bond in that case"

If you meant in GP they can't, its players buying and selling bonds that determine the cost in GP.

If you meant in IRL money they can't. They raised the price of bonds IRL money from US $6 to US $9 and they lost 5 million pounds of MTX revenue. Jagex literally can't raise the price of bonds IRL money without also losing sales.

Doesn't mean they can't raise they price, they could, but if they do, a lot fewer players will buy bonds to resell for GP.

It might also mean fewer regular players too if every player who bought bonds now thought I paid US $18 for this thing, I'm not selling it for less than 200 mill GP. Well if they did that a whole lot fewer players in game would buy bonds and sellers would have to lower the price to sell any substantial number of them.

I know it's tempting to think that Jagex controls it all and can do whatever they want but it's not actually true.

They are limited in what they can charge, how they can charge it, and how fast they can make changes. If they screw it up exactly what is going on now with people complaining about MTX and leaving the game is what happens.

That's always the trade off in business, raise the price and some number fewer people will buy. Balancing price raises along with the resulting sales drop is a very difficult thing to get right and right now they can't raise the price much.

The only option open to them is to convince people to spend more willingly. More and better cosmetics, revamp Soloman's store, add in some small MTX in game that is very reasonably priced and 100% "extra" stuff like giving the free 18 presets now but allowing 2 more to be bought for one bond, etc.

zealous dagger
#

sorry, you write so much, i cant read all of that consistantly, its a lot

hoary belfry
#

What I understood was

  • gp bond prices are set by players, not jagex via demand and supply
  • it's a risky manoeuvre to raise the irl prices because higher bond prices mean people are less likely to buy bonds due to higher upfront cost
  • best option to increase monetisation is via cosmetics or qol stuff
zealous dagger
#

supply and demand is exactly how bond prices work.
half the amount used, via time, you're halving demand. because people will need half the no. of bonds.
jagex will increase the $ cost of bonds if they double the days, which will half the supply.

undone zinc
undone zinc
# zealous dagger supply and demand is exactly how bond prices work. half the amount used, via tim...

I know you said too long to read but I just showed why Jagex literally cannot raise bond prices unless they are willing to lose more bond sales.

They might try raising bond prices IRL money anyway if they thought they would make enough more to offset lower sales.

But Jagex just did that, raised bond price from $6 to $9 and they lost 5 million IRL pounds.

Very unlikely they will try that again soon.

zealous dagger
#

so what you're effectively asking jagex to do is half game time cost via bond prices

#

yeah, not a good idea

#

as i said, most bond purchases are done for game time via osrs

undone zinc
#

I'm suggesting that Jagex increase the membership time from a bond for RS3 only.

I don't play OSRS and have no idea how long you get in membership there for a bond.

I believe (could be wrong) that giving 30 days of membership in RS3 (maybe OSRS?) for a bond would retain more current players and maybe even attract new ones.

Bonds are technically MTX so it is an MTX issue.

zealous dagger
#

what you're asking is for jagex to make game time cheaper.

#

get more for the same value

#

the problem of increasing the cost in the past was that they increased the cost per time gained.

#

doubling the cost and doubling the time isnt increasing bond prices comparatively.

#

its getting the same value.

#

would halfing the cost of bond membership bring in more players? probably.

#

would it reduce profits? almost certainly.

clear cedar
#

bonds shouldn't give 30 days, but they should give like 18 or something

#

right now they're a bit of a scam for anything but GP

#

+1 for at least making it so 11 bonds gets you premier instead of 20

#

that's the most obvious scam there is, as it's so easy to count

undone zinc
# zealous dagger would it reduce profits? almost certainly.

You have a point about reducing profits, it might.

But isn't that the issue at hand? People are upset about how much MTX (bonds are a large portion of MTX) there is.

And Jages is already losing because of MTX issues >

So yes, they might make less IRL money if they rebalanced bond vs membership time but people would be a lot happier and might stay or buy other things.

zealous dagger
#

so you suggest they lose more profit xD

clear cedar
#

leaving bonds in the game at all is a problem IMO

#

they should simplify it by replacing bonds with runecoins

zealous dagger
#

removing bonds wont solve anything

#

people will just start RWT again

clear cedar
#

what's wrong with replacing them with runecoins

zealous dagger
#

in almost the same volume

#

oh, i see what you mean

#

just remove runecoins

clear cedar
#

just make it so you can usd <-> runecoins <-> membership like gems<->gold in gw2

#

runecoins are more traditional/comparable to other games and work for small amounts

#

so you can get a precise amount of GP for your coin

zealous dagger
#

yeah, could be right, no idea.

clear cedar
#

and any transactions with other players would be instant regardless of the current price

zealous dagger
#

maybe its less deceptive though.

#

thats usually the point of having a bunch of different currencies

#

trying to think from their pov

clear cedar
#

if they removed runecoins but kept bonds then you'd need to sell a single weapon skin for a bond (or just real money)

zealous dagger
#

obviously would be good for us

#

ideally you wouldnt have either.

#

you can have real $ credit

undone zinc
zealous dagger
#

and spend exactly that on what you want, without a bs currency

clear cedar
undone zinc
#

I guess what my view on the MTX thing is that it's not "really" about MTX.

I mean it is since costs are higher and it's viewed as unfair.

But what I think it's really about is the game has gotten "unfair" in many ways and people have just had enough of that and MTX is the easiest thing to spot and talk about.

Things like the Yak track taking more than a month to do for free which basically "forced" people to buy a bond or three to complete it.

Same with Hero's event.

I see the same thing with the high GP cost of bonds and friends who struggle to to make enough in 14 days to buy another bond.

I'm not sure Jagex knows that even, hopefully they are learning. They have def realized players are upset I just hope they realize it goes far deeper than MTX.

hoary belfry
zealous dagger
#

the problem is buying power via rwt

#

and translating that into skipping gameplay

#

and bad methods introduced by that being in the game, earnable by all. theres heavy incentive to use those, and skip gameplay because they've bled everywhere.

hoary belfry
zealous dagger
#

yeah, pretty much

#

if someone wants to skip the game, i dont really care

#

it doesnt impact me at all, so why should it matter?

undone zinc
# hoary belfry Wdym by unfair

Unfair in my mind = doing things in game that that make people feel they can't get it done, or are getting cheated, unless they spend either GP to buy a bond or are required to spend IRL money for something beyond membership.

As I see it making people feel they "have" to spend extra money for what should be basic things, events, etc. is the problem.

Selling things that are truly extra, like overrides, outfits, etc. are fine but they have to be truly extra and things people want to spend extra on.

One example might be Premier membership.

Buying Premier used to cost a bit more and it came with about two free outfits a year. I don't know if you've noticed but they haven't given out any outfits with Premier now for a few years.

That makes me mad cause I get Premier for my main and use bonds for my Alts. Unfair, I'm no longer getting something that used to be included and was promised.

Another would be the old Yak Track, the first one was longish but doable. Every new one the made longer and harder so most people would have to buy bonds to finish it. Unfair, makes people feel they are being forced to do something or being cheated out of it.

zealous dagger
#

but when the gameplay lacks because something like that exists, its pretty bad

clear cedar
#

more that they changed the premier offer and you kept buying it

#

it's always only had one outfit though

#

and for parity with OSRS it should have nnnothhing

hoary belfry
#

I always felt the benefit of premier was just the discounted price ngl I forget they give outfits

undone zinc
# clear cedar it's always only had one outfit though

Yes, I keep buying Premier cause I was never grandfathered in at the $5 a month (I think) that others told me they have.

It was mostly just simpler and nice to get an outfit or a peacock pet (how I got that pet).

clear cedar
#

ye, best value on its own

#

doesn't really need any other incentive

hoary belfry
#

I mainly play in bursts to keep myself updated to help people and make vods for pvme guides if there's a new update that affects the paradigm of entry to mid level pvm, I get regional pricing from India so is 7 usd per month for me so I stick to monthly

#

Bcestare2

undone zinc
hoary belfry
#

Considering you get both rs3 and osrs even tho u can't play both at the same time it's actually a far better deal than other yearly subs like wow or xiv

undone zinc
#

Hmm, haven't even logged into OSRS, didn't even know Premier gave both?

I guess that would be good if I played OSRS.

hoary belfry
#

Yeah

clear cedar
#

the meta, if you don't play any other games

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is to play OSRS when you get bored of RS

#

then go back to RS when you get bored of OSRS

#

both games are pretty similar so not playing both if you have the time to is pretty silly (other than "can't play both at once")

hoary belfry
#

Honestly the content cadence of both games fit each other well

#

I play xiv + osrs and gw2 + rs3

clear cedar
#

based

hoary belfry
#

Mfw addicted to MMOs but so little time to play so I optimise playing 2 at once

rotund trout
mellow gazelle
#

and idk how they can do that but whatever, it exists for newer players or people that actually let their membership lapse longer than 2 weeks

vernal iris
#

Thank you gagek for this experiment. Im very happy that the company has finally decided to do something about mtx. If people would quit over this then good riddance! Minor setback for a huge comeback in terms of playerbase. Once we get rid of the MTXers the community would actually be better because then, we wont have players with 105m xp on a certain skill that doesnt even know basic game knowledge. Cya spin buyers! back to your local casinos and gamble on there

rotund trout
#

There would still be alot of players who have no idea how the game works even without mtx

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because they can still afk most of their skills without learning how they work or anything

lament summit
#

Can at least the 'free' MTX portion be excluded from this? I've gathered a lot of items over the years solely through dailies, occasional handouts and events and not a single cent was involved. I even made plans to get to 110 crafting with all the gathered BXP and items for this DXP and that plan was basically cancelled after Jagex' experiment announcement.
Also have over 7k dragon trinkets through the summer pinatas this beach event alone, again with no MTX involved. This was denied this DXP as well.

rotund trout
#

a little less then 4 hours and you can use them again 🤷‍♂️

karmic moat
#

if the game functions again then
currently lots of connection issues again

lament summit
#

Without BXP, the sole reason I wait on DXP events.

rotund trout
lament summit
#

Kinda an issue Jagex made themselves by allowing multiple factors to be combined.

People seemed to have no issues with DXP before, but throw in all kind of XP boosts on top and suddenly it becomes too fast.

vernal iris
#

No issues? People were malding about the very first DXP, until it became more and more common and those people that were mad either quit, got 200m all already, or just stopped caring all together

random quartz
#

I made a huge post at the start of dxp about how i thought it would all go, and actually come to a slightly different conclusion.
Do i think proteans/dummies/processors are a good idea? yes but should be a limited "treat". should they be tradable? no. make them through skills? yes. limited daily use (think like divine trees/herbs etc) yes.
Should th go all together? this i dont really care about, so in my opinion, yes it can go. have i bought keys in the past? yes, maybe 2 times a year, but if its not there, it wont bother me.
Should we roll back to 12 years ago before prismatic lamps, bxp became widely available? actually yes, I think this would be a huge shock and change for all, including myself, but as others have said, maybe its become too easy to get extra xp and speed it all through. Lamps/stars can still be quest rewards, and maybe from some events, but not thrown around like confetti.
Should dxp stay? ehhh.... im in two minds. maybe make other events, like the christmas, easter, beach etc give a decent xp drop, and make them into xp events, i think this would balance better.
just musings whilst the game is unable to be played 🙂

rotund trout
#

rolling back 12 years is a good suggestion if you just want rs to be gone instantly

vernal iris
#

But cmon we all know mtx wont go anywhere, if anything they would remove some stuff but not all. But these experiments that the company are doing is a step in the right direction in terms of making the content in the game actually be done instead of standing in a bank

random quartz
#

of course. everyone has their own 'ideal' version of the game. jagex have just got to figure a balance. not everyone will be happy with whatever they chose to do, but i do agree its all in the right direction

mellow gazelle
lament summit
zealous dagger
#

They also said rhere would be one more dxp event to use them

#

Assuming they decide to remove them

mellow gazelle
#

what future? this is a one-time thing

zealous dagger
#

Its an experiment to potentially change how these mtx work

#

Ofc theres a future for it

#

They said that themselves

mellow gazelle
#

if you're talking about the possibility of keeping mtx items but disabling them every double exp event that is not going to happen

zealous dagger
#

Obviously

#

But they could be removed entirely

#

Or be disabled from bonus dxp (although be usable)

lament summit
#

MTX items are also a bit of this broad term used to identify all items primarily obtained from MTX. Though, I do think it's important to note from what sources they come from as well.

Are prismatic stars a problem if they can be bought? Maybe. Would prismatic stars be a problem if they were earned passively alongside sources like daily challenges? Debatable. But in that sense you also have stuff like black pearls players can earn weekly from Agoroth, and basically act like stars.

zealous dagger
#

Or no changes. Thats what the test is for.

#

I dont think the source matters.

#

Its how disruptive they are to gameplay thats really importanr

#

And they are quite disruptive

mellow gazelle
#

I think people need to understand that the fact that you can get them for free is a large part of the problem lol

undone zinc
# rotund trout You say increasing bond prices reduces jagex revenue but you seem to forget that...

I find it hard to believe they can count bonds used for membership as subscription revenue because those bonds are the ones sold on GE by other players, Jagex isn't selling those bonds, they already sold them to the players that are selling the bonds on the GE to get gold in game.

Jages lists bonds sold as MTX revenue and it's when they sell them to players for IRL money that they record that revenue. And that revenue (MTX) dropped 5,390,897 Pounds from 2023 to 2024. Was it all bonds? probably not, some might have been due to fewer Keys and Runecoins purchased but the bulk of it is from bonds.

During the same time they raised IRL bond prices from $6 to $9. It seems likely that was largely responsible for the MTX revenue drop but it could also partly from raising the Premier price to $99 and fewer people bouying bonds to resell for GP on the Grand Exchange.
.

image.png
lament summit
#

It feels they are more disruptive based on how much enters the game.

mellow gazelle
#

if all of these items were only available through purchase, their effect on the economy would actually be less

#

it's the free sources that are wrecking the game more

zealous dagger
#

Them existing at all is an issue though

lament summit
#

Quite a turn to say MTX is not the problem, it's the free sources that is.

rotund trout
mellow gazelle
#

weird cause I didn't say that

rotund trout
#

bonds not redeemed for 12months are also counted into mtx

zealous dagger
#

And its not really based on how much enters the game. Its like, why bother raising agility if you can buy boots and it levels passively?

mellow gazelle
#

here's a basic pipeline

zealous dagger
#

It doesnt matter how lobg.

#

The skill is deleted

#

Agility is an ass skill, but thats a good example.

#

Agility needs a rework, not a bandaid fix to remove it.

lament summit
#

So if it was changed to, say, you can get the boots through invention and charge it with downs obtained through various sources like daily challenges. How would that go?

zealous dagger
#

That doesnt change the fact that you're deleting the skill

mellow gazelle
#

MTX item introduced - > Jagex makes it available for technically free because they don't want people to call this a P2W game (they still do) -> it gets dumped onto players through free keys (of which there are many sources) and events -> mtx item does what it does, regardless of its source, and obviously if people can get something for free they would prefer it so a lot of free items wreck the economy

zealous dagger
#

Which was my point.

#

In both cases you wear something and forget it exists

mellow gazelle
#

when I, and many others, say mtx items we also mean the ones you get for free

#

they are still mtx items, because they act like mtx items

#

they only reason you would conceive of an item like proteans is so you can sell them

#

the fact that you can get them for free doesn't matter

#

you introduce boosts and gameplay skipping items to make money off of them, just because you no longer make money off of them doesn't mean they aren't still skipping gameplay and aren't still a problem

zealous dagger
#

Pretty much all the skills are in a great place if all mtx items are removed

#

All but agility

mellow gazelle
#

there is no plane of reality in which silverhawks should exist and work as they do now

#

there is no justification for them

#

if similar boots existed for every other skill I imagine people would look at them differently, there are just a million excuses because no one likes agility

zealous dagger
#

Yeah, its kind of the most extreme example that isnt just buying lamps

undone zinc
# rotund trout <@415000992149536768> Bonds start being counted for revenue the moment they get...

Where do you get that from. Jagex isn't getting revenue from a bond when it's redeemed.

The bonds people buy on the GE were sold by other PLAYERS not Jagex.

Jagex sold those players the original bond to resell on the GE.

If Jagex tried to recognized revenue when the bond were redeemed it would be double counting revenue and they would be jailed for fraud because they ALREADY recorded the revenue ($8.99 IRL money) from selling the bond to the player that then resold the bond on the GE to get gold.

mellow gazelle
#

the bond revenue gets categorized on redeem

zealous dagger
#

That doesnt change the fact that they are counting bonds as sub revenue

#

Yeah, it may not have been purchased at that moment, but its designated as such then

rotund trout
lament summit
#

Where do unredeemed bonds get categorized in?

rotund trout
#

after 12months of not used

zealous dagger
#

Jagex are pretty open with things iirc

#

I was amazed

rotund trout
#

page 28 of the financial doc thingy

lament summit
#

And before 12 months? I'm going to assume Jagex pretty much collected the payment already of a bond.

zealous dagger
#

Sure, but they dont need to classify it specifically if its unknown ig

rotund trout
zealous dagger
#

Its going to be a tiny % of bonds that are unused for 12 months.

undone zinc
# rotund trout mtx

Then Jagex must defer recognizing all Bonds sold for IRL money if they wait until redemption.

They can't recognize them twice.

Still MTX went down a lot, pretty much has to be due to either price raises leading to fewer purchases or players leaving the game and no longer purchasing.

Either way it's fair to say that price raises of Bonds or of Membership caused the lower MTX revenue.

zealous dagger
#

I assume they can be listed as uncategorised.

rotund trout
#

It's the dropping player count that caused lower mtx revenue

undone zinc
#

I do wish Jagex would make it easier to find it's full report. Hard to find, I heard posted to Reddit? but I don't see the report on Jagex official site?

Sounds like a lot more posted than I've seen.

Is that the case?

light hound
undone zinc
#

ty

zealous dagger
#

Or just less down.

#

I dont remember the actual numbers, i didnt care that much

rotund trout
#

mtx was down like 4-5

undone zinc
#

Subscription revenue was up just over 6 million Pounds.

Prob from the price raise in the Sub price and not from more bond sales? But I don't know.

rotund trout
#

Could be either one of those or both

#

Since we don't know exactly how much is bonds for that. Same for mtx.

undone zinc
#

True

rotund trout
#

But also prices going up are normal and would happen even if player count and revenue kept going up each year

undone zinc
rotund trout
#

I just compare it to how much time i spend on playing rs

#

I'd be spending way more buying new games in a year so it's fine to me

mellow gazelle
#

my yearly membership cost with my 2013 grandfathered rate is $95

shell obsidian
#

They've lost a lot of subscribers. Which make sense, as the Hero Pass quitters would really first show up in the 2024 financials.

#

And a lot of people quit from that system.

zealous dagger
shell obsidian
#

I don't think its a coincidence that Jagex started the monetisation rework process (when the earliest survey happened) mid 2024 only half a year after Hero Pass.

The loss of so many players from monetisation probably was a reality check and they probably had enough data from 2024 seeing where the wind was blowing.

zealous dagger
#

the funny thing was, even before hero pass there was evidence

#

from yak track. it wasnt as bad, but was still mostly rejected

slate depot
#

hero pass crossed some lines, started effectively monetising parts of teh game that had previously been left untouched

#

in the context of a period of not many major content updates (necro's release doing more to bring access to existing content than the '2 bosses, 8769 quests and a city' that had been pitched), it was optimistic to say the least

zealous dagger
#

was actually when i left myself, so i remember pretty clearly

#

it was a very 'what are they even doing' time

rotund trout
#

I think i was playing during that time

#

But i remember nothing about that awful system so i think i just ignored it's existence

zealous dagger
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yeah, same. but it was also a really long content draught

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like.. a year and we had necro, and it took around a year for anything interesting after

rotund trout
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Idk what content came when. Even now i feel like we barely get any content

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But that's mainly because most of the 110 updates don't feel all that interesting

zealous dagger
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yeah, its more than what we got then

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i left for osrs around that time

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and just watched, waiting to see if they'd ever do something

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but it was pretty much a year with a few short quests, they tried really crappy seasonal stuff and expected that to be enough to warrant adding barely anything else.

lost burrow
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numbers looked pretty good this week tbh

zealous dagger
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I bet the removal of mtx/cosmetics is quite popular, yeah

rotund trout
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Idk. There seemed to be alot of both haters andl overs for this experiment

zealous dagger
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People who feel strong negatively are the loudest

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But the numbers are what matter most

undone zinc
# shell obsidian I don't think its a coincidence that Jagex started the monetisation rework proce...

You're right there was extensive discussion about MTX in the old Forums after the Fresh Start worlds and Hero Pass.

Most of it negative. Jagex did start to say some things about it and here we are with actual experiments and tests now.

Most prob don't know the old Jagex already killed one game with MTX, War of Legends.

That game was designed from the start to require you to buy armor and gems to power up the armor and you had to have them to compete. And compete you did since you could attack anyone's base and they could attack yours.

They did drop a few gems and armor pieces in game but it was so limited you had to buy to stay alive.

I was top 5 in my server, I rage quit the same day they added a piece of Leg armor to the game for US $50. It had been dropped and only two people had it in game and they promised to release it but didn't for over a year.
You had to have it to do the highest tower levels and have a small chance at gems and recruit more troops. I logged in, saw they had added the armor to the store and the price, I logged out and never played again. Didn't pass my things to the clan or give anyone gold. I actually wanted the game to fail at that moment and was very satisfied when it shut down some months later.

I had actually quit RS to play WOL, was out 18 months, decided to try RS again and been back since.

MTX does upset people but RS is far better than WOL was, you can get everything in game as drops, you are not forced to buy it directly from Jagex.

That's why I say the whole MTX rage thing is really more about some of the "unfairness" in RS over the years. Making the Yak Track harder and longer so really had to buy bonds to complete, same with Hero Pass, etc.

At it's core I think its more frustration and feeling "forced" to buy things (if you want to finish) and wasting our time than it is about MTX.

hoary belfry
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i get your point but saying "its not as bad as x or y" even if it was jagex's old property shouldnt stop or discourage people from expressing their views about the impact of mtx, be it negative or positive
its like saying hey early level levelling is bad on rs3 but its actually worse in some krmmo, im not playing that game, i want the issues with game to be resolved

undone zinc
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Yup, you're right people should discuss it. Just making the point if can be 10 times worse.

Also think many are talking about MTX as a problem because it's easy to identify and more clear than realizing things like "you know I did the first yak track in 10 days and this last one took me 23 days and I bought 2 bonds for 4 skips!" (I did).

I'm really hoping Jagex works on fixing the underlying issues as you point out they need to be resolved.

shell obsidian
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I don't care much that there exist worse things, as I'm not going to play those.

I do, however, care that there are better things out there, and I would much prefer RS3 be like those.

hoary belfry
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exactly

undone zinc
shell obsidian
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I'm not holding my standards to the rock bottom

hoary belfry
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they are listening tbh

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alot of mechanics from amascut are reminiscent of mechanics from wow and ffxiv raids

shell obsidian
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I think if they weren't listening we'd not have any experiments at all

hoary belfry
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and that

glad dove
# undone zinc You're right there was extensive discussion about MTX in the old Forums after th...

Right, that makes sense. In WOL or games like RAID, you couldn't enjoy or compete without the basically mandatory MTX items, but these items in RS3 do not cause a negative impact towards other players if used so I'm not sure why some people are so against them in RS3. In this case, it is basically use them if you want to or don't use them if you don't want to. If people do want to use them and/or use them during dxp then why the negative feelings towards it. (Not saying that you are having negative feelings towards it. Just saying in general). Each player has a different situation and different reasons for using MTX items if they choose to do so, such as: 1) don't have a lot of time to play so it is nice to make some kind of progress, 2) don't have a lot of GP or time to make GP so it helps to level up skills that are costly, 3) allows for some afk XP gains while being able to still be productive in their everyday life, and many other reasons. Also if they do get rid of them, I think it would be pretty messed up to those who have been saving some up and then wouldn't be able to use them at all.

rotund trout
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And just how bad all the free xp is for the economy

lament summit
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Join F2P where firemaking exclusively has reduced xp rates on protean logs.

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(that's right, MTX penalty exists)

undone zinc
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XP rates have to be better, going to all 110s, then 120s a few more years down the road.

I know you believe free XP is bad for the economy, and it does affect it somewhat but nowhere near what people think.

You can look at moneymaking guides (skilling) and see this right off. They're good for a short time, people find out about it, and it stops being good.

Magic logs would be another, who actually cuts them anymore, very few. Instead they're dropped now from the wild events but the price that was 380 GP years ago is now 850 ish. Fewer people cut them and price went up.

If we did get rid of "Free" XP, like dailies and proteans what would actually happen?

You, your sister, and 10 cousins (joke) would all go out and cut trees for logs to burn for FM. Some people would buy them if you sold on GE but the best case is you might see an initial jump in price, then a hard decline.

Herbs are the prime example of this, prices on herbs to make pots are down hard from the old days, 60% in some cases. You can barely give an Irit away for 800 and I once had to pay 4,000+

What changed? More dropped, instant farming with fast grow pots for more expensive herbs, new farming methods, faster - skip a phase.

So if we banned Protean Shakes what would happen? Price of some herbs might go up a little, but as soon as people see that they will start growing those herbs to sell and "overgrow" and the price will fall again.

Banning "free" exp won't lead to higher prices for long, maybe in the short term, but as soon as that "new" moneymaking method becomes good everyone will start doing it, way too many will be gotten and stuck in the bank, or put on GE at lower, and lower, prices trying to sell.

People adjust, ban one thing they will flock to some other way until can't make decent money in it anymore.

Always going to be that way as more people skill than do (hard) fights. A good portion of what's gathered is sold on GE to fund their progress. They make more than use.

spice lynx
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Obviously removing free xp will lead to higher prices for materials. That is how supply/demand works. You increase the supply for materials which will lead to higher prices. People may do different things to make money, but they don't have the time to do everything. When more people do a certain money making method less people will do the remaining money making methods. Overall this leads to higher prices.

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Nobody cuts magic logs for gp. Magic logs drop from many mobs/bosses and its price depends on how many people do content that drops it and inflation.

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Also magic logs is a good source of simple components. This may in fact be the only reason they maintained this price considering inflation. They really drop from a lot of stuff.

karmic shoal
gentle python
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Affects on the economy are a minor issue with MTX items. The biggest issue with MTX leveling is the effects it on how skills are designed to progress. There's no meaning in unlocking anything in a skill when half the active playerbase is just going to completely ignore it. Jagex isn't going to make meaningful content or leveling methods ever if the primo way to level said skills is completely disconnected from the game world. Not only that but imstead of the mid -> end game being explored for content, we're just going to extend the treadmill further and then everyone will feel like they have even longer to grind out. Those of you defending MTX will complain that leveling without MTX sucks but never ask to make the journey better but just ask to pay to "catch up." I question if you actually want to enjoy playing the game or if you just wanna see big numbers for the sake of it.

shell obsidian
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affect on gold in the economy is minor, but notable

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affect on supply prices is very likely the much bigger impact of things like proteans

earnest granite
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Ok, DXP is officially over so I'm gonna go ahead and take the survey now!

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I often find it helps to share some of what I'm writing on these surveys, so I'm gonna try and do that here as well?

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I said that I was much more excited to play during this DXP event, and wrote this for an explanation
I found myself excited to delve into more of the actual gameplay, rather than seeing everyone simply crowd around the same couple bank chests and portables. Not only did the game feel more alive throughout the event, but the community felt much more engaged. It was nice to actually PLAY THE GAME with other people, and that made me happier to come back and just hang out with people.

earnest granite
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I'm trying think of to put my thoughts to words on this one

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I want to talk about how this event felt more fair and less grindy than past DXP events

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Systems like Treasure Hunter have made the core gameplay loop not only buyable, but also increasingly tedious and... frankly just not fun, in my opinion. DXP weeks now feel less like special events and more like chores. They feel like something I HAVE to do in order to avoid miss out, rather than something I look forward to. Seeing huge crowds of players AFKing around the same few bank boxes and portable stations, not actually playing the game, just burning through these huge stockpiles of proteans, just doing the same thing over and over only feeds into that sense of burnout. This event was mercifully different, though. Instead of feeling compelled, I actually WANTED to participate and actually play the game organically. That made it far more fun and engaging.

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Huh, now this I didn't see much of

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Did you guys notice any significant changes on the GE?