Spawning Mechanics - Feedback

[icy seal]

It never required, people move alot because of current spawn system not the other way around

[viscid magnet]

I know the dev is working in community servers, but for some reason when I saw a new post on the upcoming updates channel I had hope of seeing some spawn system news u.u

I really hope it doesn't take him that long to get on this issue.

[merry raven]

If they made collision for enemy players a vanilla thing that'd be great.

Cuz walking through enemy assault's shield and shooting them is just dumb af amongst other phasing nonsense

[trim turtle]

being shot at also stops it too

but its funky

[viscid magnet]

the shield is a joke, don't even try to use it xd

For me is on the same level as the FU sight.

[merry raven]

True 😔

[tender aurora]

I shall be honest I just hope they add a middle ground selection (Can you pass through allies only)

[merry raven]

Yeah that's what I meant.

Friendlies 👌 enemies no

[tender aurora]

Ah

[trim turtle]

yea, i dont want no door stuck moments

[tender aurora]

"DOOR STUCk, LET ME OUT! DOOR STUCKKK!!!" As I see a pile of sucide vested mark 10 speed enemies rushing at me

[trim turtle]

i had someone manage to door stuck the lower walkway on the waki bridge with a really well placed resupply drop

[icy seal]

Oh right how do you destroy the supply drop?

[tender aurora]

(Thinks of a time I just got done building a fortification on waki bridge, enemy MBT just rushes towards bridge from behind me & I watch a horde of engineers chasing it, rams into the barricade to than just see that mess consume it)

[icy seal]

I would’ve expect a supply drop to be highly explosive

[tender aurora]

I suppose it depends what is in it

[icy seal]

Primary gadget is mostly explosives

[tender aurora]

true

be it a explosive like C4 requires the detonator pretty much

[icy seal]

Eh idk

[tender aurora]

unsure on the claymores & others through

[icy seal]

You can shoot to detonate c4 in BBR which is totally unrealistic

[tender aurora]

Used to propell it

which I would enjoy watching

[icy seal]

Hence the propelled C4 should be a feature

Yeet!

[tender aurora]

if I recall Okri did say he liked it

hmm I am now just imaging we get a sledge hammer

And just play baseball with C4

BATTER UP! (home runs into a quad kill)

[honest rose]

Picture says a thousand words
Instead of being able to spawn on any team-mate, you can only spawn on your squad lead, the spawn beacon, or any team-mates within the spawn radius of those two. (Picture is just to illustrate, don't take this as a proposal for spawn sizes)

In this example if you were wanting to spawn:
1) Squadmate is in the radius and not giving or receiving hostile action: CAN SPAWN
2) Squad leader isn't taking or receiving hostile action: CAN SPAWN
1st squadmate is in the radius and not giving or receiving hostile action: CAN SPAWN
2nd squadmate is in the radius but is giving or receiving hostile action: CAN'T SPAWN
3 & 4) Squadmate is outside the radius and is not giving or receiving hostile action: CAN'T SPAWN
5) Squad beacon is active and not damaged: CAN SPAWN
Squadmate is in the squad beacons radius and not giving or receiving hostile action: CAN SPAWN

As the maps are many different sizes, it would probably be best if the squad spawn radius was set as a global modifier as part of a map property (could even be open to API control), so maps like Valley and Construction have squad spawn radius's appropriate to their size and the number of players.

Advantages:
Keeps squads more coherent and closer together.
Clearing out an area is less frustrating as you don't need to hunt down every single enemy to prevent spawning.
Squad Leaders are relevant and play an active part in the squads success without having to dedicate excess time.
Snipers operating away from the squad no longer get spawned on and exposed

[tender aurora]

I like this

[honest rose]

Disadvantages:
Snipers or others who operate away from the squad are disadvantages in terms of backup
Killing Squad Leader means whole squad is pushed back if a spawn beacon hasn't been set (possibly not a disadvantage?)
Spawn beacons would need to be reworked to be more available and easier to deploy

Sorry, 3 and 4 should be non-spawnable colours

Fixed

[trim turtle]

seems much better than what we currently have without being too restrictive, im still a little apprehensive about squad leads adopting the "hide in a closet/bush and let people pop out of me endlessly" strategy. thoughts on how to discourage this?

[honest rose]

I don't see people doing that unless they're really masochistic, it's really boring

[trim turtle]

definitely way better than an entire squad being able to do that

[honest rose]

technically they can do that already, but not just the squad leader

[gleaming condor]

honestly I also don't think most of you realize how much worse spawn camping could be if squad spawning was removed.

[tender aurora]

suppose it depends , randoms would proably be far easier to deal with

[honest rose]

I do, I think it's the lesser of two evils though.

[gleaming condor]

Nearly every spawn camp break happens because a couple of players make it past the camp and get enough players spawned to make an effective flank.

[tender aurora]

their lead would die or they would broadcast the beacon location

[gleaming condor]

yea it's definitely not lmao, even now spawn camping can be bad enough to make entire teams leave, with no chance of breaking the spawn trap even I would just leave server and go next

[honest rose]

The only maps I see spawn camping on regularly is Construction

Which is bad

I agree

[tender aurora]

wakistan here

[gleaming condor]

construction is bad. But I've seen it on almost every map. Some games you just get a stacked team

[honest rose]

I've seen it but I can't say I've ever experienced it so hard on Wakistan I raged, there's the whole left side of the map thats open

[tender aurora]

Ah

[trim turtle]

I have seen only a single game where a genuine spawn camp happened and that was less "spawn camp" and more "everyone decided to fight over a single base right outside the enemy base"

[gleaming condor]

other games one team gets a lucky break and spawncamps due to poor map design, but you can break those spawn camps because of squad spawning if a few players can get past and get enough of their squad to spawn on them to break the spawn camp

[honest rose]

There's Spawncamping then there's getting outplayed/rolled, if that's happening then it doesn't matter if you sneak past because that'll just get mopped up

I agree it's poor map design

Some maps have some nasty chokes or some really campable building outside spawn

I'm looking at you, A on Wakistan

[gleaming condor]

without squad spawning, spawn camping will likely be significantly more common, and impossible to break everytime it happens. Especially once one team gives up and starts swiping to bluezone sniping

[trim turtle]

Even the game i was in where the enemy got pushed back to their last point and their base for the entire match there were HUGE swathes of unguarded land along the border of their base zone to escape through.

people just wanted to fight at that point regardless

[honest rose]

If spawn beacons didn't have a cost, but were a piece of equipment for the SL instead, breaking out and placing one down would be easier

[honest rose]

yea, kind of my experience

[gleaming condor]

not really; that still changes it from 32-127 players who can break out and make an impact down to like 4. It places the entire burden on whoever SL is and if they can't do it the game is over

[honest rose]

I think the issue of spawncamping is being overstated, I don't think it would be any more of an issue with the above mechanics.

[tender aurora]

hmm

[honest rose]

As in, I don't think teams getting rinsed that hard happens all that often

[tender aurora]

It is very mucha mixed bag in terms of how this changes spawn camping

[honest rose]

except on poorly designed maps

[gleaming condor]

That's a lot of pressure to place on a few players, especially since you can't guarentee yourself SL of a squad and it can easily go to newbies.

Even so, I wouldn't run SL class at all, medic is my preferred playstyle as it has the largest impact on game outcome due to it's rezzes.

[honest rose]

Walk we know you love medic, you'll never not play medic

You keep telling us you love medic :p

[tender aurora]

start a new squad?

[gleaming condor]

then you are by yourself and have no one spawning on you anyway...

[honest rose]

But there's no I in Team

[tender aurora]

People can join ya know

like if that is such a bad lead,they'll leave & find a different squad

[trim turtle]

Spawn camping just doesnt really exist in this game with how wide the base zones are. If you try and guard the border with an evenly spaced team you will get rolled over if enemies group up (which they can easily by spawning into a humvee near the border)

and if you group up to respond you wkll leave gaps for people to slip through

[gleaming condor]

not really, there's no guarentee any other SL is better. Very few players leave their squads for another

[tender aurora]

true but it doesn't hurt to swap squads & check

[icy seal]

Any squad spawn invalidates existence of spawn beacon which you can hear from a mile away

[gleaming condor]

pretty much the only time you see that are for players who want to snipe without people spawning on them constantly

[tender aurora]

true because we have squad spawns now

[honest rose]

@gleaming condor Leaving aside the edge case of spawncamping. In a normal game with two balanced teams, do you think the above spawn mechanics would be more enjoyable than the current squad spawn system?

[gleaming condor]

spawn beacon is still useful if well placed, often times squad mates are all in combat or the entire squad gets wiped and that lets you spawn closer instead of all running from main

[tender aurora]

they don't need a good SL by any means since SL is fairly automated/such now

[icy seal]

Gets blown to pcs cuz enemy already camping it

[honest rose]

This conversation is getting a bit straw-man

[gleaming condor]

not really, no. I think this will simply result in most players spawning in at base and getting annoyed at spending half the time running trying to get back to the fight, only to die to someone camping the route between spawn and action, since it's incredibly predictable

[tender aurora]

on which side, or both? @honest rose

[trim turtle]

Another advantage i just thought of is it gives recon a bit more of a specialized role.

why yes i will be assasinating the commanding officers

[honest rose]

Do you mean because the SL gets killed and no one rezzes them?

and hasn't bothered to place a beacon?

[icy seal]

make recon marked enemy take 1.5x damage

[trim turtle]

Camping the route between spawn and action is a feature dude

You can actually infiltrate behind enemy lines and wipe out unaware and complacent reinforcements

[gleaming condor]

I know, I do that all the time. But it's very annoying having to run for 30s, only to die to a bushcamper, then that happening twice again. That's enough for most players to say fuck it and log off

[honest rose]

Sorry, just to premise before further discussion: I fully believe the current state where you can appear right at the front lines almost is bad, and contirubutes to them being thoughtless meatgrinders.

[icy seal]

I have a proposal, make people w/o a squad recon class who can ping enemy for the whole team and remove recon position from squads

[honest rose]

I have a proposal, Stop posting

[icy seal]

They kinda just don’t “work with” squads

[trim turtle]

You probably have such an issue with bushcampers because of how easy and low risk it is with squad spawning as it currently is. Its not "a single recon player snuck behind enemy lines," it is instead currently "a single recon player snuck behind enemy lines and 7 engineers popped out of his ass and mined the road"

[gleaming condor]

Being able to spawn closer to the action, or at least somewhere you don't have to run through 30s worth of "empty/low risk" territory is much better.

[icy seal]

And those people hiding in weird corners to poop out more teammates

Not just bush

127 district F has plentiful weird corners

[honest rose]

But, you still can, as long as your squad doesn't get wiped.

[icy seal]

proposal, squad spawn only when member is in a vehicle

You can’t just hide a vehicle

[honest rose]

Ok, what if: Squad Leader can spawn on any non-engaged squadmate

[gleaming condor]

Not really? I don't personally have an issue with bushcampers, I am good at spotting and will win virtually every 1v1 I take. But I also understand the other players perpsective, and getting killed 3x by someone and having no one to help you get back to the fight while some player is out there demolishing the few guys stuck respawning and running through empty territory is extremely frustrating to them

[icy seal]

And exclude quads for good measure

[trim turtle]

Every day we stray closer to planetside 2 😛

[gleaming condor]

and if more players are stuck running from spawn, all that does is eventually lead to spawn camping of whichever team is losing

[honest rose]

Vehicle spawning is kind of ehh

[icy seal]

Planetside 3: Battlebit

[honest rose]

@gleaming condor Are you happy with the current spawning mechanics? Do you think it's the best mechanic for BBR and doesn't require change?

[trim turtle]

I dont think it will fit this game, but the logic for planetside 2 makes sense. You cant easily conceal a sunderer and they are slow and fragile

[icy seal]

Imo spawn camping is due to false sense of security of where “blue” territory is

[honest rose]

Honest and open question

[icy seal]

Enemy will die staying in “blue” for too long but nothing stops them from engaging you 200m deep in blue

[tender aurora]

I would say depends on vehicle and if engine is on or not

[honest rose]

Because Imma be real open here, you don't seem to like the game in its current state because you complain about it a whole lot, but you also don't want any changes to be made.

[icy seal]

Map should only mark safe zones as blue imho

[honest rose]

I don't mean that as a bash, I just wanna feel where you stand

[gleaming condor]

the only change I think needs to happen is "in combat" needs to be slightly altered; a larger radius for players being in combat, and a 5 second delay before you can give up.

you don't seem to like the game in its current state because you complain about it a whole lot

If you are talking about me, I don't complain a whole lot at all; I make suggestions I think would improve the game here and argue against stupid shit like suppression. The only thing I've really specifically complained about is aim punch, which has already improved dramatically and only needs a few final touches before it'll be in a perfect spot.

At this time, battlebit is one of the best FPS games I've ever played, I have a ton of fun and enjoy every minute of it.

That doesn't mean it's perfect and it has room for improvement, but a lot of suggestions I see will definitely reduce the fun of the game dramatically.

[icy seal]

some people just like to $h1t on other peoples idea

[gleaming condor]

some people have shit ideas. Others have good ideas and I have agreed with them

[honest rose]

Can you understand the frustration others have explained with the current spawn system? Such as needing to completely wipe out a squad to prevent back-caps and hunt down every member, thus giving defending a massive disadvantage.

The complete ease of flanking, which turns many maps into a simple continuous death spiral

[icy seal]

it would be wiser to explain why an idea is $h1t than just giving funny emojis … btw not implying anyone, there’s a few member I’ve blocked doing exactly that (bashing w/o explanation)

[honest rose]

Walk usually does

He strawmans a bit but at least it's constructive

[trim turtle]

Literally a spiral, because on a lot of maps it encourages players to move in a circle chasing empty points

District is a great example. It is incredibly circular

[honest rose]

District, SandySunset, Wakistan, Namak, 256 Frugis etc. etc.

[gleaming condor]

I do. And the suggetions I've made so far have been in the direction of alleviating that.

That's literally exactly what increasing the in combat radius would accomplish.

However, I also disagree that defenders are at a disadvantage, and I disagree that spawning on squadmates is the cause of their frustration, but rather that the conditions for allowing squadmate spawn are too lax near objectives.

I also think that removing squad spawning will lead to a completely different outcome than people suggesting it are expecting, especially when it comes to the macro of the game, such as spawn camping, and end up causing significantly more frustrating for players because they'll end up with a lot more downtime and find themselves in situations where they have to run long distances to get to a fight while getting ambushed by better players constantly.

Lastly, removing squad spawning will cause players to be stuck alone more often, away from squad, which helps even the odds of worse players against better players. Spawning on/near squad mates is important for them, if that option isn't available they will absolutely 100% find themselves further apart and without teammates much more consistently on top of what I've said earlier.

[honest rose]

Take this common example: Valley flank, squad running down the east side north to south, some get spotted and killed but it's at range so the others get away without being hit, squadmates spawn back on them. They get to E and start to cap, enemy pushes them off but one guy lives and hides, enemy move off and the squad spawn back on him and recap E. Wash rinse repeat until the enemy manage to kill every squad member.

Do you see how un-fun that is for the defenders?

[trim turtle]

Hard disagree here, squad spawning actually incentivizes your squad to spread out wildly and distribute themselves across the map. Doing this not only provides more options for spawning (making flanking stupidly easy) but also reduces the chances of your entire squad getting stuck in combat

[honest rose]

And this isn't like spawncamping, this happens every game without fail because the mechanics allow for it.

Not only that, it is the optimal way to play.

[icy seal]

Isn’t squad supposed to operate together

[gleaming condor]

ok, take your exact scenario, except now that other player can't spawn on his squadmates so he's stuck spawning back at base and running through the enitre map by himself or sitting and waiting oon the spawn screen hoping his SL is a good player who pops a spawn beacon

[icy seal]

Gangbang is the most reliable way to win gunfight afaik

[honest rose]

Yea, their attacks failed so they need to regoup and try again, what's wrong with that?

[icy seal]

And res makes death not count

[honest rose]

You think you should get a free pass to just come straight back after being pushed off by cheesing squad spawns?

[icy seal]

I don’t see why you should incentivize spreading out into nowhere

[viscid magnet]

IMO this is a consequence of squad spawning, and the lack of incentives for defend.

Like you get more points for taking a point, than retaking one of yours that was being taken.

And you get extra points for allowing enemies to get to your point and then killing them, but not for being in your point yourself keeping enemies away.

Those issues are so clear to me that I'm actually worried that the development decided to focus on community servers over this.

New/casual players loved the game at the begining when no one knew what they were doing. But I don't see anyone staying around when their first games consist on ''run to this point, then leave it undefended to go to the next one, and don't dare to build structures because that will help the enemies in 2 minutes'', and the fact that they can't even slow down and try to have better positionment because enemies can be everywhere, it takes one guy on a bike driving to your back to suddenly have a whole squad there, and that's not even counting the ''swap squad and spawn'' trick people is now doing.

What made this game popular was how well hardcore and experienced players could have fun with new and casual players, but right now the dessign flaws are showing and it's hell for new players.

[honest rose]

You think thats any fun for the defenders at all, playing whack-a-mole and scouring the hillsides and houses to try and find the one person hiding away? No it sucks and it's boring, which is why no one does it and it gets to the stage where you just let them have it, THEN you start getting spawn-camping as they've got a spawnable base right next to your HQ.

[trim turtle]

I advise everyone watch "tf2 but you spawn on your teammates"

sure, it lacks some of the things like being damages preventing other players from spawning on you but that experiment just showed how insanely heavily squad spawning favors attackers

https://youtu.be/xSklooh0rKc

this is your homework if you are arguing squad spawning

[icy seal]

Squad spawn is like cockroaches

[gleaming condor]

TF2 maps can be cross in 10s, not 2 minutes. It's irrelevant to compare the two like that.

The player scale is completely different as well.

[icy seal]

What if squad spawn is only allowed when member is around a friendly objective or in blue area

[honest rose]

As an attacker I'm sure it's great, you can attack all you want with little repurcussion, but that doesn't make good gameplay.

[viscid magnet]

at that point you could just remove it, you already can spawn in the blue area and in captured points

[icy seal]

Well in blue and cap it’s spawning at designated locations

[trim turtle]

Lies, i can never spawn in captured points because a single guy is contesting all of them

[icy seal]

Let’s not talk about barsa B

[tender aurora]

might as well start using which class & method

[viscid magnet]

have you ever thought it's not one guy but a squad spawning over and over again?

[honest rose]

Lets not derail this with map design

Maps have their own issues irespective of spawn mechanics

[icy seal]

Doesn’t need to, literally can flash a cap sitting in tall grass

[gleaming condor]

The other thing I don't really understand is what you exactly want to do on defense? Do you want to pvp or do you want to sit idle for most of the game waiting for someone to come to you? Personally, if I'm defending I would rather fight players more often than kill a few people and wait 20 minutes before seeing another player.

[icy seal]

Pubs don’t always poop from you ya know

There’s one time I contested a point for 5 minutes noone spawn on me

[gleaming condor]

Half the reason players don't like defending is because there's no guarentee of a fight; if the enemy doesn't decide to push you you'll sit there and be bored. So players go on offense because it lets them set the terms and they are doing so to seek out other players

[trim turtle]

I want to be able to fight instead of getting rolled over as a zerg of 24 people pop out of 3 seperate bushes and then shoot me in the back

[icy seal]

It also makes defending not fun cuz you’re almost guaranteed to be outnumbered, outgunned

[honest rose]

But it feels hollow, it is mechanically impossible to mount an effective defense in BB currently as the attackers will always have the spawn advantage. Yes you can shoot a lot of dudes but it feels hollow if you know, from the very start, that losing the point is inevitable. This is why no one defends.

[icy seal]

When half the enemy team show up in 10 seconds

[honest rose]

Someone made a fantastic article detailing the exact points and I'll try and find it.

[viscid magnet]

that's only true because the spawn system make the battle a chaos. if spawning was more controled, we would have a front, you can leave the point, knowing the odds of enemies going past the frontline to your capture points is really low.

We should be able to leave the first capture points and fight on thos at the front without risking a huge zerg poping out of nowhere in your back with little to no effort.

[icy seal]

It’s not the older cod titles with great map design (classic 3 lane) making movements somewhat predictable

[icy seal]

and making black hawk carrying a full crew to backcap a viable strat?

[viscid magnet]

I mean, at least you would see that happening.

[icy seal]

i mean, it’s ma wet dream

Often times you get like 2 passengers

[honest rose]

disagree, no ones sitting around on a point waiting but thats the same for any Battlefield-esq game and has been that way since BF2, the problem is that instead of the defenders naturally being a slight advantage, they're automatically at a strong disadvantage.

[icy seal]

And they poop their own mates all over the place

[viscid magnet]

its way easier to notice a huge heli going for a back flank, than a guy running through bushes to allow he's whole squad spawn at him at any time.

[icy seal]

Exactly

[honest rose]

4 defenders in a good defensive position cannot fend off 6 attackers, because you're facing 6 x infinity attackers as they can respawn locally whilst your point is being contested and your squadspawn is being blocked by hostility/close enemies

[icy seal]

Or ya know, just a zoomy quad

[trim turtle]

Even if an effective defense is mounted it rarely lasts for more than a blink of an eye because flanking is so easy. A single guy slips past to the sides and next thing you know are getting shot in the back by 8 seperate guys

[honest rose]

doubly so, attacking feels hollow because you know a flank is going to succeed, there's no challenge

[gleaming condor]

No it's not? It's probably difficult if your entire gameplay is afk in a corner, but if you are defending with literally any form of competence you have the advantage

[honest rose]

you just keep going until you get bored or someone blows up your spawn beacon

[honest rose]

Ok thanks for the ad-hom, not quite sure the point you're making

[icy seal]

Oh and btw, squad spawn naturally makes people gangbang want it or not when they only have a few options to spawn from (that m8 in the bush or a mile away back in base?)

[gleaming condor]

what the fuck was the point you were making? You just made a completely incorrect statement with literally nothing to back it up. Defenders have advantage

[honest rose]

No, you are in fact wrong

This isn't personal conjecture, this is shown direcly by the current playstyle and meta in BB right now this second.

[viscid magnet]

At least I back him up, squad spawning make defense imposible and flanking/attacking too easy, Who is backing you up?

[icy seal]

give people xp staying for defend?

[honest rose]

If defending was advantageous, people would be doing it, but they aren't

[tender aurora]

defense orders give like 1000 XP per minute or two while holding + extra XP for fortifying the point as support?

[honest rose]

So I don't quite know where you're pulling your opinions from

[icy seal]

1k is a bit … much but I can see where you’re going

[tender aurora]

Fair

just the first thought

[viscid magnet]

most people I have saw here agree that squad spawning is an issue, and attacking is way easier than defending.

But you tell people they are all wrong and you are rgiht??

[icy seal]

Maybe 400 plus give support 2.5x bonus

[tender aurora]

Sounds good

[icy seal]

Now we also salvaged support

[tender aurora]

and make defense points have two zones (a capture & "Defense" zone)

So defense zone would simply offer defense xp bonuses

and the capture is well,the capture

offers same as now

[icy seal]

Staying in cap give 2x

[viscid magnet]

honestly the only points/exp reward defending needs (aside of balancing it to make it viable), it's a reward for killing enemies FROM your point, instead of only awarding killing enemies INSIDE your point.

[honest rose]

Someone already mentioned something similar by points having a "threat radius", within which it counts kills as defending or attacking

it's a good idea

[viscid magnet]

It's nonsesnse that you need to allow enemies to get inside to get the reward, thats bad defense, a good defense won't allow enemies to get inside.

[trim turtle]

And the lack of squad points will make it even harder to defend. No points = no sandbags or walls or anything

[tender aurora]

point, should give some squad supplies for defenses

[icy seal]

maybe also generate squad points passively when you’re defending

[gleaming condor]

yes

[tender aurora]

say every minute you gain like 50 supply points possibly?

[icy seal]

I find myself run and gun getting like 2k points nowhere to spend

And when I defend? I got nothing

[gleaming condor]

only if you are actually in combat and actively defending, not just for afking on a point

[trim turtle]

I really like the idea of defend orders offering a small passive income of points. Maybe scale it based on how long the point is held and number of squadmates on it?

[honest rose]

As a side note, maybe the threat of having to walk back from a point might make players be more cautious and purposeful to avoid dying, or stick around longer to get revived instead of holding space. Just a thought.

[tender aurora]

sounds good

[honest rose]

Death might be more meaningful, which would increase tension

[viscid magnet]

it would be enough to get points for killing enemies from your captured point, and some points for reverting/preventing a point being captured by the enemy.

It's really dumb that you get points if you allow a single guy to take your point and then retake, over killing such enemy and reverting the capture process.

[icy seal]

Oh and in Rush the source of point is so scarce it’s not possible to build any meaningful defenses

[trim turtle]

Makes support more important as a side effect. Longer lives means people are more likely to run out of ammo and such

[honest rose]

If you know you rely on your squad leader for spawning, maybe you might protect him a lil bit more and communicate

[tender aurora]

so like every minute you gain like 10xSM in the zone and it gets a multiplier the longer it has been held and but reduced if it hasn't had a enemy killed from someone (or damaged) from a ally in defense zone or such

[icy seal]

I’m trying to tackle the uncertainty of enemy attacking the point you’re defending at all

[gleaming condor]

A few classes have the ability to do so, scout obv but there's rocket jumping on solder and a few others have movement tech that also allows it.

Otherwise, even just running the maps on TF2 are generally SIGNIFICANTLY smaller than those of BB; even it's 32v32 modes are larger than TF2 despite how fast you can move

[icy seal]

That’s one of the reasons people don’t defend

There is no guarantee enemy come to you

[honest rose]

Obviously this works both ways, whoever youre fighting would have the same limitations

[tender aurora]

this took a while to get a answer (20+ minutes)

and back to topic

[trim turtle]

Yea, something to encourage players to go and defend points and stack up on them when a defend order is made. Would also make backcapping a risky but rewarding strategy, resetting that multiplier by taking it.

[tender aurora]

Aye

[honest rose]

You should get EXP over time for contesting a poiint

[tender aurora]

Could also make every point held give some passive supply points to all allied squads

[honest rose]

either as a defender or attacker

(defenders get more)

[icy seal]

That would snowball bad

[gleaming condor]

I was in-game but my internet is fucking up today so I probably can't play at all

[viscid magnet]

btw there should be some test servers.

How hard it would be to try and disable squad spawn on a server and see how it goes?? and if improves the gameplay you can start working from there, try some of the ideas I saw here about limiting squad spawning.

I don't know shit about coding, but I imagine trying something like this would be realtively easy, and there would be plenty of players willing to play on those test servers and give feedback.

[gleaming condor]

rush would definitely benefit from both offense and defense having some starting squad points (50 for first 4 squads in 32) and more reliable ways to get points, especially as defense

[tender aurora]

So from what I am understanding so far (correct me if I am wrong)

1. Disable squad spawns unless by the beacon,squad leader or by one of the two previously listed & not in combat
2. Points/supply gained from defending (2.5x bonus for support & 400xp per minute)
3. Point multiplier if point has stayed in control

[trim turtle]

There are a lot of options here honestly. I think i like the idea of some form of slow but passive squad point income based on holding or defending points.

currently, if your squad is slow to the first 2 points on the map you start with 0 squad points. Played a few ganes where my squad ended up in humvees at the back of the convey and didnt get to the point before it flipped. That sucked hard for the first opening minutes

[tender aurora]

some being like 1-10 per minute ; per point

[icy seal]

Leader spawn can be as cancerous as currently is

Especially for party squads

[tender aurora]

you were talking after that message through

[viscid magnet]

as someone that likes to build sniper/machinegun nests, getting in a heli is my top priority at the begining, ideally getting the pilot seat so I can make sure we capture at least 2 points, if not, I pray for my pilot to know what he's doing.

We definitively need to start with some points or at least ways to earn them other than running in circles to empty capture points.

[gleaming condor]

didn't have chance to go through everything and saw that inbetween a death lol

[tender aurora]

So from what I am understanding so far (correct me if I am wrong)

1. Disable squad spawns unless by the beacon,squad leader or by one of the two previously listed & not in combat
2. Points/supply gained from defending (2.5x bonus for support & 400xp per minute)
3. Point multiplier if point has stayed in control
4. some form of supply generation
5. a defense zone around the capture zone
6. ability to get defense points while either shooting someone in the zone or being in the zone shooting out
7. Possibly some starting supplies
8. cheaper/more abundent beacons (possibly make it a gadget on SL with a CD)

[honest rose]

cheaper/easier/more abundant spawn beacons

Whether buildable or a deployable gadget

[tender aurora]

did I miss any Yeti?

[honest rose]

No, I think you got a good snapshot of whats been discussed recently

[icy seal]

don’t mark the unsafe zone as blue

So people don’t get false sense of security

[honest rose]

????

[tender aurora]

I assume contested points

[honest rose]

I think they mean the safe zone?

[viscid magnet]

you have said that a lote of times, but what about a LIGHT blue area for the restricted for enemies but not ''safe zone''??

[tender aurora]

Ah the base zones?

[viscid magnet]

I feel people need to know where enemies can't go

[honest rose]

I mean its safe as in they cant stay in it without taking damage, but you can shoot in it, I don't being bulletproof in its a good idea.

it's more a buffer zone to prevent teams getting hard-spawncamped in their base, like right up against the door

[icy seal]

I feel people want to know more about where enemy can’t damage you

[viscid magnet]

I think the point is that there is a safe zone, and people see that, check the map an asume the whole blue area is safe.

We just need to be able to diferentiate the safe zone, from the no enemies allowed zone.

[icy seal]

Enemy can’t enter but can still kill you via various means

[honest rose]

Ohh, yea makes sense, I know there's a spawn zone where you can't shoot so maybe having that in a darker shade would make sense

[icy seal]

It’s common for spawn campers to hide in corners near the border

[honest rose]

can't shoot or take damage*

[viscid magnet]

yeah, dark blue for safe zone, and light blue for no enemies allowed zone would do the trick

[icy seal]

Make the color customizable cuz I really can’t care less about no entry zone

Have you seen suicide c4 go all the way into base with quads?

10 seconds can cover a LOT of grounds

[honest rose]

They shouldn't do any damage at that point

[trim turtle]

After playing that voxel mode im kinda conflicted about not being allowed to shoot. If anyone should be woried about spawncamping it would be that map. 2 tanks able to just delete anything you build on an otherwise flat map that has your base require you to drop you right off a cliff before you are allowed to shoot

[viscid magnet]

can they activate it in the blue zone??

I asumed that since you can't shoot, you can't do anything in there.

[trim turtle]

Its more of a map problem though...

[icy seal]

C4 can be activated iirc

[honest rose]

hahah yea..... Voxel mode needs some pre-generated terrain

[icy seal]

Which is funny

Or maybe it was an A C4 B suicide thing

[honest rose]

Sounds like a bug and will hopefully get patched

[icy seal]

I don’t have a friend willing to die for me so idk

[gleaming condor]

anyway,

here's an example of me defending bomb point during rush, the 2nd half of it solo:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O856fH8gpE0

This isn't particularly impressive gameplay.

Note that even though I'm on offense, once the bomb is planted the role is flipped and it becomes strictly defending the bomb site.

This stuff also applies to other game modes, such as domination or conquest, but is easier to demonstrate for smaller objs for the sake of this discussion.

Defenders have advantage for a few reasons: In the case of smaller OBJs like rush, attackers have a ton more angles to check, and defenders can hold multiple angles or off angles and offenders have to deal with being shot from multiple angles. Defenders have a larger "safe" zone which lets them remain more mobile. They also have time to setup claymores/mines etc. It's also important to head off flankers and kill them before they even get a chance to get to the objective(You see me do this shortly after I respawn). In addition, defenders only need a few players on the objective itself, the rest of them can spread out and take map control and make it hard for offense to even get to the objective in the first place, though it doesn't happen in this example.

more incoming; 1 min

[honest rose]

Ok, on Rush I agree with you, defenders do have the advantage

[gleaming condor]

If we're talking about a squad of defenders in cq/dom, defenders should be moving off point, with only a couple on point looking outwards, so you have a larger chance of seeing enemies and killing them before they even get to the objective. Those being on OBJs looking out can easily ping or communicate if they spot a player. The vast majority of my kills are killing players before they get to the objective at all by playing off the objective myself, in the area I think they are most likely to come from. If they do get close, defenders have a ton of angles and places setup, and probably claymores and other defenses that will slow down aggressors or give away their position, at which point defenders can run them down. One thing point defenders should not do is remain stationary and hope the enemy runs into their crosshairs; if you have a location of the enemy, be aggressive in clearing them out and keep them from gaining a solid foothold.

https://i.imgur.com/5Auj5Cj.png

lemme finish I gotta draw a bit more to make my point and I suck at paint

[honest rose]

I should have clarified, I was mostly referring to Conquest and specifically flanking or side-capping, rather than the central meat-grinder which is kind of more attacking on both sides

[tender aurora]

why I suggested a defense zone prior

[honest rose]

I'll wait till you finish posting

[viscid magnet]

I want to say that's my case too, talking about conquest, I have barely played any other gamemode since apparently most people don't like them or they don't want to try them (I have 180 hours and have played only conquest, like 10 games of domination, and 1 of CTF and Frontline).

That's another thing that should be fixed.

[trim turtle]

The problem is how voting is done imo. It should be a percentage chance based on the number of votes an option gets

[icy seal]

people like to play vehicles I guess?

[honest rose]

No idea why, they feel terrible

[viscid magnet]

Another idea I had about that is showing the votes happen in real time while allowing people to change their votes, that way those that want anything other than conquest can all vote for the mode with better chances of beating conquest.

[gleaming condor]

If you setup like the first picture in that example, where your squad are all on point, what ends up happening is this:

https://i.imgur.com/gUgQ1S6.png

You get surrounded and sniped, picked off, and pressured from all sides simultaniously and that gives offense full freedom of movement. This is the situation that happens you were talking about, where you are stuck fighting off infinite waves because you can't move without being shot.

If you setup more like the second picture, the opposite happens - you see an enemy and spread out and instead put pressure on them and they get stuck being surrounded. If one of the defenders that are outside the point die, they can spawn back on the point or one of the two "bottom guys" in that example, and then push around the defenders and basically circle around them

https://i.imgur.com/454klD0.png

this is all overall theory, and ofc if there's a huge skill gap it could go either way, but between two equal teams setting up more along the lines of the 2nd setup will always give defenders a huge advantage, especially in games like BB where the map is larger because offenders will tend to come from the same general side(whichever is closest to their spawn).

For the most part, the team that is able to stay spread out more effectively will always have a bigger advantage, because it's just more and more angles and pressure from more sides. But it's easier to do on defense when they also have a fortified position to fall back to and regroup if things aren't going well.

[honest rose]

Are you done?

[gleaming condor]

Next time you are playing and feel like you are having a tough time defending a point, open the map and take heed of where your team is. The vast majority of times, you're going to notice that you are all in the same general location while the enemy is more spread out.

When you are winning on defense, you'll notice the opposite.

In general, most average players group up on defense, and naturally spread out more on offense. That's why often players feel like defense is at a disadvantage, because naturally defend = sit on point for most players. But that's a tactical mistake that comes from inexperience. Playing defense with a the idea of maintaining map control makes it MUCH harder for offense to have any chance of gaining a solid foothold

ya now i'm done

[honest rose]

I have a couple things regarding that, lemme chainpost before reacting.

[icy seal]

I do hope community server (admin version which still grants xp) allows fixing game mode

It sucks when dom game suddenly becomes conq

(And me totally didn’t pay attention to it until I got blown up by tank)

[honest rose]

First, I agree with you in principle, that is the correct way to defend and is probably the most effective, but it requires perfect-world scenarios.

1. You need to know an attack is coming and from approximately which direction
2. You need to be ready beforehand
3. You need similar numbers to attackers
4. You need to not have your outlying squadmates sniped off
5. You need to not have your outlying squadmates killed by the attackers they're walking towards
6. (the big one) You need to make sure you're not flanked, otherwise you're now fighting people in front and behind

I don't think your example takes real world (BBR world?) circumstances into account.

1. You don't often know flank attacks are happening until the point becomes contested
2. It's usually a rush scramble for defense, rather than anything organised
3. Unless you're playing a party, your squad is usually disjointed with poor communication and teamwork (sometimes you get the magical squad tho)
4. Map terrain may not allow a proper outward defense or may provide attackers with a sheltered path to the cap.

I'm taking a like-for-like here in terms of attackers and defenders, and assuming both are squads of pubbies with little to no communication as this is the norm. Players sit on the point for defense as that's what they have to defend, points swap so quickly in BBR that if you don't you find you've already lost and now have to retake, which is very very common.

I don't think the game shouldn't be balanced on the basis of constant high-level teamwork as this is not the standard, anyone doing this will obviously have an advantage over random pubbies and that's good and expected, but outside the scope of this discussion.

Taking your example of two equally skilled, coordinated squads engaging in attack/defend over a point, I still believe the attackers would have the advantage with all other things being equal. (1)

They have more avenues of attack, the spread-out defenders are harder to res/heal when they're downed, and all it take is for one attacker to get within the base to shut down spawning on the point and most of the people inside, forcing the defending squad to spawn on the defenders out in the open away from the point, if they're not being currently shot at or engaged.

I want to re-iterate that I don't mean this happens every time and that defending is impossible, but on average the defenders have to get lucky consistently, whereas the attackers only need to get lucky once.

On the other hand, if this engagement used the Squal Leader spawn mechanics, the defenders need only kill the squad leader to prevent constant and imminent flanks, with attacker reinforcements coming from one direction (spawn beacon). Should the defenders manage to overpower the attacks and destroy both the SL and the spawn beacon, then the point has been defended and the attackers will need to regroup and re-engage, allowing the defenders time to reinforce their position and prepare.

Conversely, the attackers win condition of get someone on the point and shut down the majority of spawns is the same as before, the actual attacking part is no different except for they can also target the defending SL and spawn beacon.

Between the two spawning methods, I think the biggest change would be flanks would be more difficult to pull off for both attackers and defenders, leading to more head-on engagements. This wouldn't make flanking impossible, it just means it wouldn't be unpunishable like it currently is.

In this scenario, the defenders actually have an achieveable win condition that doesn't involve manually searching all the surrounding area to ensure there are no survivors hiding away and moonlighting as a spawn beacon.

someone screencap this: consistent, constructive discussion for the first fime in a feedback thread

[tender aurora]

done

[trim turtle]

flanking being harder is something i really think this game needs. fact is most matches dont have the coordination required to counter the ease and reward that a flank provides right now. a single guy slips past your sightline and suddenly your team might have 8 guys popping up in their ass. often you cant even go hunt the dude down because it might be too dangerous to really do so on top of that you would be abandoning your own sightline to do so and just be inviting even more people to slip by. even if we could reliably call out to other squads we cant expect them to listen to act on our request to go search a forest for 1-2 minutes when they are busy shooting the dozens of enemies right in front of them

[honest rose]

On the bigger maps like Sandysunset, this is simply just not fun, the only recourse if you don't want to lose immediately is to do exactly the same thing to the enemy bases, hence the common experience of the death spiral.

[viscid magnet]

I really liked the drawings to explain their opinion, so I edited it to show exactly how I think this would end in a real game in an average server

[trim turtle]

you forgot a random enemy sitting in the capture circle too

[viscid magnet]

true, my bad, there should be an attacker in the circle denegating point and squad spawn for defenders.

[icy seal]

You forgot about a patch of tall grass

[honest rose]

You forgot about the grassy knol

[tender aurora]

don't forget the trees too

[icy seal]

Especially those that seems to be planted underground hence cannot be removed by a C4 on the trunk

[restive mirage]

Not sure if this is more fit for here or suggestions, but:
When a squadmate spawns on you, they often block your view for a couple seconds, which is particularly annoying when you're sniping or holding an angle. Maybe you could make it so that squadmates spawn behind your back or something? (I'm sure it's not that easy of course)

[untold knoll]

What if they spawn into your arms and you can yeet them off into whatever direction you prefer :D

[icy seal]

I thought disabling squad spawn was the consensus

[untold knoll]

Or a huge fucking field of wheat like point F in Tensa gets because it's absolutely fun to give enemies a huge space to hide just outside of your base.

[icy seal]

I had fun camping there with a tonk since it’s easy to tell if there’s someone in there with infrared

You see a pixel of white you shoot

[untold knoll]

Yeah too bad you don't actually start with one tho

It's fun just spraying some LMG all over it and catching hit markers tho

[icy seal]

Sometimes I really would like mediumcore mode where no hitmarkers exist

[trim turtle]

they can spawn in my arms so im able to instantly strangle them 🤔

wait, no. il hang out on cliffs just so i can reenact the lion king with them

[ancient girder]

Totally possible with the upcoming community servers

[gleaming condor]

So, this is a wrong understanding of this.

1. no, a big part of spreading out and defending like this is to gather info. By being like this, you get info of an attack significantly earlier than by staying on the point so you can react to it asap. In addition, it also denies info from attackers - if you are all on point, it means they know your location. If you are spread out and shooting them constantly from multiple angles before they even get to OBJ, it takes them a lot longer to gather info on you and "organize"(I put it in quotes cus pubs don't organize)

2. again, no. The entire point of spreading out like this is to give you significantly more warning so you can better prepare your defense

3. Nope. This is actually just as effective with fewer players(obviously not like, 4 vs 32 but you know what I mean). Much more so than all being in one spot, at least.

4. even if they are, now you know a) potential attack incoming b) most likely direction it's coming from c) any additional info they can get from the death, and d) they can still spawn on anyone and be right back in it.

5. same as 4, this gives you info and they can respawn. But if they get a single kill or any damage off they'll have stalled long enuogh for the rest of the squad to start moving in and flanking the attackers

6. How is that different than all sitting on the point? The entire point of spreading out is to make flanking much harder for the enemy and instead of being surrounded, take map control and use it to surround them before they even get to your point, your logic for 6 doesn't make sense because spreading out alleviates flanking much more than all being in one spot on the point.

These are all things that also happen naturally without any coordination. Good playesr will naturally spread out, worse players will naturally bunker down in the same spot. But even in BB I get plenty of games where players on my team have a nice large spread without any coordination needed.

[honest rose]

You know what Walk I think we're just going to have to disagree

[gleaming condor]

I mean, sure, if you want to disagree. But this is basics of map control, it's pretty much universal to any FPS, large or small scale.

[honest rose]

I just played 6 games and encountered the issue I mentioned in every single one, I can see where you're coming from but it just doesn't match my experience.

From both angles as well, I am that irritating leftover attacker and just hides so others can spawn

[trim turtle]

1: spreading out when outnumbered just invites yourself to be picked off from random angles without support or chance for a revive. When numbers are close to equal it is certainly better to do so and gain info but we already know all the info we are going to get. The enemy outnumbers us and is everywhere

2: refer to 1

3: self evident, most defenses are at most a squad maybe squad-and-a-half holding off 30+ players. The rest of the team has had no tine to actually respond and equalize the numbers

4: refer to 1

5: refer to 1

6: you know what, you seem to think spreading out prevents flanking instead of just overextending and self flanking yourself right into 10 enemies in 3 seperate bushes and buildings.

Like what info is a squad of 8 going to gain from spreading out to try and defend against a zerg of 40 people?

"Oh wow guys we might be surounded. I left the fortified building we are holed up in and got hosed down right as i left the doorway"

[honest rose]

I wouldnt say a zerg of 40, you're not going to win against that regardless.

But there's a whole lot of assumptions being made to substantuate Walk's claim, foremost is that pubbies communicate

It sounds like an explanation of what SHOULD happen, not what DOES happen.

[gleaming condor]

if you're trying to hold off 30 players with a squad then this is the wrong fucking thread to talk about, no changes in spawn mechanics are going to make that a fair fight, what the fuck are you talking about

[trim turtle]

Well if you follow the threads you know most of the complaints are about those 30 people popping out from 3-4 people who slipped by

[gleaming condor]

then if you were spread out and caught/killed those 3-4 people you wouldn't have to deal with fucking 30 of them in the first place

[honest rose]

I think thats an overexaggeration but yea

[trim turtle]

Even when pubs do communicate that doesnt even mean they are effectively able to respond.

[honest rose]

yea but thats not fun, it's not fun walk, it's not funnnnn. You have to do it every single timeeeeee

And the back points on most maps are huge with loads of hiding places, it's not funnnnnnnnnn

[gleaming condor]

regardless, I solo queue only. That strategy I'm talking about is something I specifically do. It's not impossible, it doesn't require coordination. This isn't some elite strategy that only god tier gamers can do. If you are defending, literally move slightly off point in the direction you think you're going to find players and do it yourself. You will be surprised how often others follow suite if you show you are somewhat competent. Literally no communication needed at all

[trim turtle]

Bruh, look. I play support. I watch sightlines with my big gun and big mags. I kill 8+ people trying to cross my sightline but i miss one either due to poor timing while reloading or whatever. Well now i can choose to get up and hunt him down so more can slip by or i suck it up and accept that there are just going to be 8 randoms popping up behind me in the next minute or so

[gleaming condor]

I don't understand why you think this is some impossible strategy, when I literally do this every single game constantly. The vast majority of what I do is play for map control. That is 90% of the reason I do as well as I do

[trim turtle]

Spreading out isnt changing the fact that one guy has reproduced via asexual fission into an entire squad

[honest rose]

I never said impossible, I'm trying to explain that what you're describing isn't the normal play but you don't seem to get it.

I'm sure it does work, but it's not what is done as standard based on the mechanics the game provide

[gleaming condor]

I have good mechanics but I don't even come close to some of the other players out there. And yet, I win more, out frag them, have higher KDR than many of them because I understand positioning and map control better than they do.

But really, I'm sorry but the more I read this the more I'm convinced what you guys are wanting and what happens in reality are not compatible. Preventing players from spawning on their squadmates isn't going to accomplish whatever it is you're imagining it will

[honest rose]

I'm sure you're a defense god and no one gets past your eagle eyes, but you're ignoring the fact that spending a whole bunch of time searching for stragglers isn't fun

[gleaming condor]

all that's going to do is keep players out of the fight and turn the game much more into running simulator

[honest rose]

a running simulator like running around trying to find that one hiding guy so you can stop defending this back point and go have actual fun?

Because thats more running than it takes to get to the front

if you want to do running comparisons

[gleaming condor]

why don't you just go have fucking fun then?

[honest rose]

because I want to win the game too

[gleaming condor]

ok but if you can't defend by yourself and you aren't having fun, STOP DOING IT and go have fun

[honest rose]

and I dont want to get spawncamped, something which you were big on earlier

[trim turtle]

Look, we can brag about how well we do to justify our positions in here too. I play defensively trying to hold sightlines and prevent flanks and can regularly land on the first page of the leaderboard with 3-4+ kdr.

This doesnt change the fact that i need to reload and because of that a single guy slips past and all of my effort is moot because niw that 1 guy is hiding somewhere on the point and just shat out 7 other people

What is "spreading out" going to do about that dude?

Ignoring the fact that often its like me and maybe 1 or 2 other people so who else is there to even spread out?

[gleaming condor]

I don't know, maybe give him significantly less places to try and run too, give you more info on where he's going, or let someone else also shoot him

this discussion is actually so fucking stupid at this point

[honest rose]

I think the viewpoints are just too different

[trim turtle]

Oh sure, let me just get my team to coordinate! How stupid of me, the secret was in using voice chat to inform the... 2 other people here who might not even be range.

oh i know, i will tell my squad. Maybe they will work together!

or maybe i will type in text "hey, there is a single guy one c, can someone divert an entire squad to help me hunt this guy down?

[gleaming condor]

Dear god the fucking skill issue with you is actually so fucking infuriating

it's so fucking weird that I don't have this problem at all, I guess it has something to do with the fact that I didn't unbind my fucking W key LMAO

[trim turtle]

Skill issue

fuck off dude and be a sweaty player elsewhere. I should have expected that from you eventually after seeing how you play in your youtube vid

[gleaming condor]

you are incessently whining because playesr aren't literally running into you while you are prone so you can spray them down. I have every right to sit here and call skill issue because this convo has gotten so far beyond stupid; it's literally NOTHING but you whining about the dumbest fucking thing

I have been very patient and even given you pictures on how to help with your defense but you still sit here and fucking cry because players DARE do something other than sit in your fucking crosshairs. Figure it the fuck out.

[trim turtle]

man, go ahead and call skill issue more if you want to show off what a clown you are

[viscid magnet]

just shut up already, everyone but you think squad spawning is an issue, everyone but you think your thing about spreading out it's either not realistic en the servers or not fun. Someone even said you guys could agree you disagree with eachother.

And now you are just being rude with someone because you can't convince everyone else that you and only you have the right viewpoint. and even dare to tell him HE is the one trying to make everyone accept he's viewpoint as true, while you are the one doing that.

[atomic stag]

This isn't going anywhere. Post locked for toxicity. May re-open at a later time.

[atomic stag]

This Post will re-open <t:1692626400:R>. If the rules are broken again like this, it will stay closed permanently, or unless a Senior Mod wants to re-open it again.

As a reminder, the [server rules](#rules message) and the [feedback post rules](#1138744599905579058 message) must be followed at all times.

[atomic stag]

Post Unlocked. Remember to follow the [server rules](#rules message) and the [feedback post rules](#1138744599905579058 message) at all times, or it will be Locked again.

[snow flume]

Uh. Well, to re-engage the discussion, here's a thought I had (just a thought, might as well throw it out there); spawning on a squad mate once should start a timer. For the duration (for example, 5 minutes), spawning on any squad member again would cost one ticket, and can only be done twice, for a total of three squadmate spawns, at which point you may only spawn at rally points or objectives until the timer is up. Heavily discourages just spawning and throwing the life away to clear out a single entrenched enemy, removed the extreme numbers disadvantage for said entrenched enemies (I.e. holding down the fort might actually be viable), but doesn't impose any additional wait times to slow the pace of things. Would also lend itself to helping the location objective-based gamemodes actually feel like they're centred around the objectives, instead of the "TDM with zones where you can get bonus points" vibe the game currently has.

might also indirectly boost the squad-centric aspects. Spawning on a squadmate and just running off on your own and getting killed would be way less efficient than staying with your squad so you can get healed or revived without burning one of your two remaining squad spawns.

[snow oxide]

spawning on team mates has and always will be shit should have to a cap a flag and keep it to spawn at it like we used toi then they added this headelss chicken shit

[icy seal]

Slightly off topic, but party squad using 3rd party VoIP has mass advantage over pubs since they can coordinate concealed attacks without risking enemy hearing proximity

Including those hiding in the bush spawning men

[untold knoll]

I haven't played before the official release. So it was not always like this?

[snow flume]

Hadnt ever considered that before, but i do not think its something that can really be helped, especially since people playing BBR together in a 3rd party voicechat could just be chatting and hanging out rather than bypassing the squad-local chat thing. Along that same, slightly off-topic vein, I like that squad chat also uses local chat (hell, ive been doing that myself in Squad for a long-ass time by assigning the squad chat keybind as local chats secondary bind lol), but i think it should be in a significantly smaller radius; say, a metre or two at most. you can whisper into a walkie talkie, after all

[tender aurora]

Okay the old topic list (may have missed some stuff, feel free to knock me on the head if I did)

1. Disable squad spawns unless by the beacon, squad leader or by one of the two previously listed & not in combat
2. Points/supply gained from defending (2.5x bonus for support & 400xp per minute)
3. Point multiplier if point has stayed in control
4. some form of supply generation
5. a defense zone around the capture zone
6. ability to get defense points while either shooting someone in the zone or being in the zone shooting out
7. Possibly some starting supplies
8. cheaper/more abundant beacons (possibly make it a gadget on SL with a CD)

[tender aurora]

also @atomic stag danke

[snow flume]

may i knock ye on the head anyway?

[tender aurora]

Feel free

[snow flume]

bonk

[tender aurora]

#dev-wip message

(notices a slowmode timer has been added since 11:20)

@atomic stag WHY DOESTH THOU BETRAY ME!?

[atomic stag]

it was added before the post even re-opened

hours before

[tender aurora]

o, apperently I didn't notice

[atomic stag]

i put it at 10s instead of 15s just now

[tender aurora]

danke

and Okri just released some new details @honest rose @trim turtle @icy seal @untold knoll @viscid magnet

Custom servers now have the ability to choose which things are spawnable by looks (including a distinction between squad leader & squad mates)

[honest rose]

Yesssssssss

Might be a bit too much of a drastic leap for casual matches though

[silent harbor]

Playing the objective/defensive is literally stagnating your account progression. Really bad design but probably deserves its own thread

I think custom servers are going to give very valuable information on how things play out and I'm hoping that gives Oki a good vision on how he wants the game to be so he's not so reliant on others opinions

[gleaming condor]

better points for defending isn't something I'm against; but yea that's not really in the same topic as trying to change spawn mechanics

[viscid magnet]

It's just an option for community servers right?? or I am missing something?

anyways, I hope some community servers try to experiment with this, potentially leading to changes in public servers. (hopefully soon enough)

Thanks for the heads up.

[slow vault]

Defending points is such an onion of a problem honestly

theres no progression incentive to do it, and one person isnt going to have much luck when one guy running mach 5 flanks around and spits out an entire squad behind them, and with explosives spam right now defending is harder than attacking even with a sizeable force

[silent harbor]

I'm just genuinely confused how the game was milsim at its roots and playing defensively/the objective is so meaningless

[slow vault]

lost a point earlier today that I was defending because two people from two different squads slipped by and spawned in their entire squads right behind us moments before I started firing. it almost felt planned

[silent harbor]

I know Oki said he plays BBT just to kill people but there's two sides of the coin: if there's only attackers and no defenders all you're left with is people running in a circle from point to point until the two zergs meet down the line

[slow vault]

seeing a dozen soldiers apparate in front of you is not satisfying gameplay

[silent harbor]

A lot of people love playing defensively as you see a lot of support people making their autism bases so not having that really, really hurts the casual draw

That's another issue - zoomer medic mains doing 360's in the air the moment they get 1 damage and hiding behind a corner then their entire squad comes out of nowhere half a second later from their hiding spot

[slow vault]

especially when half of them immediately swap to RPGs or C4

[silent harbor]

Just be happy you never encounter a clan abusing the spawn system

1 guy turns into 12 on a point

[slow vault]

honestly I think I did 😂

[silent harbor]

[slow vault]

also had issues today with medics not even using guns close range when they want to secure an anchor point to spawn allies, just tossing c4 into every nearby room and ventilating it. theres very little you can do about the fastest class getting an instant kill explosive that isnt bulky, and then that turns into a full squad a moment later

but thats just as much a c4 thread issue tbh

[untold knoll]

And this is not helped by the fact that SMGs are so overtuned that at any range where they can't just out-dance the bullets, they can engage someone and have a reasonable chance to win. So even if you see them coming, there's basically nothing you can do until they're basically inside the base.

[slow vault]

I heard that all SMGs are getting a similar nerfing treatment that the vector got but Ive no clue how accurate that is. havent had much time to keep up lately. that said that just makes C4 road runners even more prevalent. theyre like a spawnpoint bulldozer unless you catch them at an actual range lol

but to wrap it back around more on topic, would raising the range that enemies stop squad spawns push people to secure areas more? It feels like it with a couple other changes could put squads in situations where they have to push the enemy back without advancing farther if they want reinforcements. not perfect but potentially helpful

[untold knoll]

This would make intense fights die pretty quickly e.g. Sandysunset as people fall and are pushed back to the next available spawn. Of course spawn beacons are available, but they're not exactly cheap to use.

I think raising the squad spawn "blocking" radius would be a great change coupled with giving everyone the ability to place a spawn beacon on a per-player cooldown rather than being points based.

[slow vault]

big issue with spawn beacons right now is its extremely hard to tell if a squad has one set up out of earshot or if they just have some guy in a house not dying nearby. increasing the occurrance of them could easily make it hard to figure out the situation youre in

and theres not a great reward for combing the countryside listening for static

[untold knoll]

When the no-squad-spawn radius is big enough, you wouldn't need to worry about guy in a house not dying nearby. They'd have to be stay at an entirely different area, so their team would be -1 and have to walk for much longer to reach the capture point. And in maps like Lenovo/Tensa where there's always people moving through the buildings, this would basically keep squad spawning off most of the time unless the entire area is secure.

[silent harbor]

I haven't heard anything about that but I was flabberghasted when only the vector got the damage drop off nerf when ALL smg's and some PDW's like the P90 should've been hit with that nerf. I also think there needs to be an accuracy nerf to boot. Doesn't matter if the MP5 gets a damage drop-off nerf if they land half their bullets at 100 meters due to its insane accuracy like it already dones. I literally have a 150-160 meter kill with my MP5

[slow vault]

I wouldnt quote me on it, since as I said I have been ootl past few days. couldve been something misinterpereted by the people I heard it from

[silent harbor]

Close-range weapon intended to be used within 50 meters btw

[untold knoll]

Personally I favor letting an armor rework sort this out as a collateral effect. If instead of just being a tiny sad bit of extra unrecoverable health you gave it a flat damage reduction, it would significantly reduce the effectiveness of SMGs (as low per-bullet damage means the flat reduction results in a higher % reduction to their output), specially as they enter damage dropoff range.

[silent harbor]

Armor rework is severely needed. The fact that your armor can be shredded and you STILL have the movement speed slowdown is dumb as hell

A good armor system could even do something like give assault Armor Piercing rounds to bypass some armor so they have more of a niche

[viscid magnet]

just let people grab another helmet/vest from supply crates.

It's just so silly that you can literally put all your organs back into you torax after getting shreded by bullets (HP healing), but not just grab a new vest and helmet (armor recovery).

[untold knoll]

Btw you can go over to https://discord.com/channels/303681520202285057/1138399550210576466 if you want to express your support for armor buffs, support enjoyers are pretty much fully onboard with that :)

[slow vault]

just please no more headshot protection my headshots are already begging for mercy :p

[slow vault]

I could see that happening, though I could also see it just kicking the can. the anchor squad member or spawn beacon has to be farther out, which increases the area that needs to be searched to put a stop to it, when again, theres very little incentive to do that currently

[tender aurora]

various changes have happened

[tender aurora]

I feel a old conversation that was brought up in here had that as a suggestion & it was decided effectively this wouldn't work beside being a bandaid fix type idea

[trim turtle]

if the zergs meet. Its more common that they chase each other in circles taking the points previously abandoned by the other or sit at the back of the map camping outside the base of the other team

[slow vault]

yeah its very much a bandaid. it would solve the current situation and make a new one that isnt quite as problematic but still quite a problem

but, a bandaid is better than nothing

[tender aurora]

if I recall the whole point idea that around 5-6 people ended up with (including myself) was to remove squad spawns beside when that SM was near either the squad leader or the rally point (both of which acted more like mobile spawns)

[trim turtle]

District is layed out in such a way that the zergs tend to just run in circles never actually fighting each other. wakistan too can end up like that often.

basara is an example of the latter being more common. It is shaped like a funnel (waki is too, but has two funnels which means if the zergs pick different points at the beginning they end up missing each other) so you can get alright fights in the center, but eventually enough people slip past for both teams that everyone starts spawning at the back points and skipping the center

[tender aurora]

other idea was buffing capture points by making them have two zones, being a defense & capture zone (Where both offer points for defenders killing enemies in or outside the radius of either (So guy out of radius kills a enemy in radius, he gets defense points)

and finally buffing points by adding encouragements to defenses by giving free points and some free supplies to foritify

[slow vault]

that kiiinda exists in that tug of war mode?

[trim turtle]

Some ideas from the vehicles thread was the ability to build antivehicle defenses, stuff like AA guns and antitank weapons.

this was, of course, combined with the desire to remove the sheer overabundance of c4 and other antivehicle weapons. Something mostly static so vehicles dont need to wory about every bush speaking c4 and can instead play smart and cautiously and avoid known antivehicle sightlines

[slow vault]

I do like that about it, some points having like b1 b2 etc

[trim turtle]

So add those sort of buildables as something you could build on points

That way defending becomes advantagous as it gives you a way to deter vehicles away from the surounding areas

[untold knoll]

Has anyone discussed replace the AoE capture points with a physical thingy you have to interact with in order to initiate the capture?

[trim turtle]

I feel like a zone is fine, its just the actual size of the zones needs adjustment on various maps

[slow vault]

that would solve someone sitting in the corner under a table behind 5 desks in the one room nobody goes into, stopping the point from being secure

[trim turtle]

Hell, funky idea. Split waki c point into two seperate points for each bunker

[slow vault]

that would cause such a meat grinder if both sides were opposed 😂

[tender aurora]

Teufort?

[untold knoll]

It would also let a smaller group of skilled people hold out against a bigger swarm, since the point wouldnt automatically flip just by throwing more bodies at it.

[slow vault]

which makes it easier to reward defending points

[trim turtle]

But it would solve the problem of how big that zone is and how many hiding places it has one complete opposite sides of the point

Honestly, i want meatgrinders. I dont want every fight to be one but currently the game has an issue of it being too easy for zergs to miss each other

[untold knoll]

Yeah, some meatgrinders can be pretty cool. Leaving aside the awful back-capping dynamic and unbalanced layout, playing Frontline in Sandysunset makes you feel like you're in one of those war movies, crawling from cover to cover with bullets zooming over your head and having to watch every window for hostiles.

[reef rock]

Meatgrinders are also a good sign that players are actually trying to contest objectives as opposed to the swappery we have atm

Isle is a good example of this now because in the first few weeks we had constant gigantic c battles and eventually players stopped and instead began massing fire to quickly take then quickly disperse to deal with a backcap or to backcap themselves

[dawn arch]

Desperately want a straight drop style Airborne Parachute! 💪

[viscid magnet]

This!!

IMO one of the worse aspect of the game right now, is the constant running from one empty point to the next one to farm the capture points, while farming a few kills on the way.

It even further disencourage defending, since when you try it, you will find yourself waiting for a while, and then facing a huge zerg, too big for you and your squad to fight it off, so if you are new, you quickly learn that the best for you is to join your team's zerg and run through the capture points (I noticed that from friends that bought the game recently, and sadly some of them got bored of the game because of that).

[slow vault]

meatgrinders can be great, but ones where the enemy is spawning in grenade range from eachother nonstop isn't an ideal one imo

[reef rock]

Yeah and this is the practical reality: as opposed to being an issue of 'skill', the current game design encourages doing as little as possible to fortify and hold positions, which in turn creates incentives for players to use the weapons that give them the most offensive cqc capabilities, which in turn lead to the medic-dominated meta atm

[slow vault]

C point is already a meatgrinder and a half. that bridge is the most populous spot the entire match

and it does that well. theres space for the tug of war, spawn points are a good distance from eachother, and theres multiple routes to the same spot

[reef rock]

Namak is actually a fun example of this too because after the grenades stopped being a major problem the most common thing is for players to slip past each other constantly in a literal circle, occasionally engaging if you happened to be on the wrong side of the map

It's not that players are stupid or selfish. It's the opposite. Players are taking the game's current balance and playing as optimally as they can

Meatgrinders are also one of the only offensive situations where support absolutely shines

[tender aurora]

could've swore a dev or two in the past has said "Players will optimize the fun out of games" and something something you need to make the optimal strat the fun strat

and If I recall a similar issue happened in new world where the players optimized it to death & back

[reef rock]

Yeah that's the world of warcraft saying and it's absolutely true in this age of mass gaming media and community building

[slow vault]

thats a creed used by a lot of devs. and while its not incorrect, that doesnt mean you can just leave issues to fester, which is what a lot of devs pretend it means

[tender aurora]

not saying this creed is to let things fester

Just saying the community has chosen to optimize the fun away

[reef rock]

You either gotta make the optimal strat the fun strat or you gotta make all strats equally/acceptably viable, and the latter is what this game needs above all else

[slow vault]

oh ofc, just saying it often is said to justify not fixing things, since "they'll just shift the meta anyway"

[tender aurora]

Hey I am not against shaking a meta up, nor am I against fixing issues in something

[viscid magnet]

I'll not talk for others, but for me, the fun part of playing a game is being as good as I can and win as much as I can, so if the best way of being good and wining is a lame way (like in this case), that's what I'll do.

[tender aurora]

for me I am a middle ground guy, I like the idea of self improvement and such, but I equally want fun moments and things being given a idenity

a example from another game I play is every weapon (this is from conqueror's blade) has a unique look,idenity & plays different to some degree

a example is I like shortsword since it is the anti burst tank of a setup (how I have set mine up and most do) where I have had 5-10 guys before hit me & I ended up with a funny escape story

But anyhow back to the point

I feel the current spawn system needs to change at least a bit in order to get some good big fights back and so on

[viscid magnet]

btw I just saw the list you are keeping, is this like a recopilation of suggestions or does it require to have some amount of people agreeing to it??

I would like to add my idea about the capture points requiring to be ''connected'' to your base in order for people to spawn there, it would be modified to include squad spawning (even tho I'm on the side of completely removing it).

But again, I'm not sure what are the requirements to add ideas to that list.

[tender aurora]

it is more less discussed topics minus walk's stuff due to how his tend to be

heavily disagreed with by more than 3-4 people

[viscid magnet]

I totally get that, and that's ok, I like playing ''for fun'' too when I'm with my friends, but if I'm grinding a game (like I grind this one) I go the tryhard way.

[tender aurora]

so generally a case of good support/discussion of the idea and you get the idea from there

[viscid magnet]

yeah I remember my ''connected points'' idea getting some support, but if needed I could describe it again with pictures to see how it goes.

[tender aurora]

I can 9/10 just scroll up some & read it

be it I already am liking the idea

[reef rock]

I remember your idea and it's p cool

[viscid magnet]

nice!!, just let me know if you can't find it, I have no problem writing it again later after work (or maybe tomorrow)

[tender aurora]

but I assume it is similar to how planetside 2's disconnected hex spawns work?

[viscid magnet]

sorry never played planetside u.u

[viscid magnet]

thanks!!

[tender aurora]

basic idea you have various bases ; Bases are connected to your warp gate allow you to spawn there from anywhere on map

[viscid magnet]

yeah, let me see if I can find at least the images, that should be enough to get a rough idea

[tender aurora]

Bases disconnected require you to either travel there manually to access the local respawn or have a spawn beacon there

so if I am say in the warp gate and you are at a disconnected base, I need to manually travel to you, or you'll need to place a spawn beacon (Rally) to let me spawn in

[viscid magnet]

Ok so I only saved the last one, but it's kind of what you are describing. This was an example of how adding extra capture points could help to prevent the whole net getting disconected by losing a single capture point.

[viscid magnet]

Exactly, basically is, no capture point spawning unless it's connected to your base, and no squad spawning, beacons would stay the same (if not made cheaper or something like that)

[tender aurora]

personally I would say give squad leaders a innate free (but on a CD) rally point

say like 2-3 minutes at least for the CD

[viscid magnet]

the whole point was to make it so there is a clear frontline in the battle and the farthest you push more enemies, instead of what we have right now where you can find the whole enemy zerg close to your spawn while most of your team it's in the other side of the map. I think that would even improve the tanks/vehicles situation, since they will be able to push behind their infantry without the risk of being ambushed when leaving spawn when there is no allies there.

[viscid magnet]

So, that's basically what we have but reducing the cost to 0.

[tender aurora]

launching up Planetside 2 to give you a picture of their system

Kinda, more similar to squad or PS2

the SL's free one is more a temp thing at best, where the placed one is more for the long haul

[viscid magnet]

oooh, so you get like a better one by spending ''resources'' (squad points in this case).

[tender aurora]

so the SL's could be a wave based respawn (So every spawns in set intervals)

[viscid magnet]

Yeah I like that, I would even have really expensive one that allow the whole team to spawn there, maybe with a bigger radius for the noise, so it's used way behind the fight, to be kind of a emergency spawn for squads that have no spawn point or something.

[tender aurora]

fair enough on that

it costs , it should be fair to allow team respawn at these

[viscid magnet]

got it. Sound good.

Honestly at this point, if they try anything at all to fix the spawning issues causing a chaos I would be more than happy.

If they remove squad spawning I might even consdier buying the supporter pack xd

[tender aurora]

makes two of us

[reef rock]

As a vec player you could also make these into vehicles that serve as teamwide spawns when stationary/permaimmobilized

More roles for vehicles to serve

[tender aurora]

hmm so a sundy from PS2?

[reef rock]

Really wish I had played it more to give reference but from what peanut has said I assume so

[tender aurora]

(Sundies can deploy near but not on the likes of capture points to provide respawns, loadout changes & so on, but is fully locked down til the driver unlocks it (and locks the spawns)

[viscid magnet]

that would be a great way around not removing squad spawn. Since I think fixing this, and therefore giving the battle a better sense of ''front'' and ''rearguard'' would allow vehicles to be more used. The biggest issue they have right now, is that traveling in a vehicle comes with great risk of geting ambushed, so you better just spawn there in the battle.

[tender aurora]

they also can't deploy too near to each other

unless enemies of course

[trim turtle]

Players are also generally fucking shit at telling you what they want. Best advice i was ever given is "customers usually either dont actually know what they want or dont know how to tell you what they want, but they can tell you if they like what they currently have"

you can see this when people complain about a consequence of a game mechanic and then in the next breath defend said game mechanic because of what it theoretically does for gameplay.

best example is people complaining about helis backcapping while defending the squad spawning that makes it obnoxious because "squad soawning keeps you close to the action! I dont want to run to the frontline for 30 seconds!" (idk if others agree with this, but at least for me helis actually are mostly fine - except the littlebirds - and it is squad spawning that makes them obnoxious)

[tender aurora]

(I have seen a sundy driver get brave & park next to a enemy one to cause a skirmish to happen, be it generally short lived)

(thinks of the full phrase of the customer is always right in matters of taste)

They know if they like what they have now (tasted)

[viscid magnet]

This is the key IMO, we need the big battles we had when no one knew what they were doing, they are never coming back without changes, we all know the game was great at that point, we just need to make sure that's the best/meta way of playing.

[trim turtle]

Here, i will give you an example.

i cook with avocado oil. I like the taste of most things with avocado oil. Therefore, i thought i would like the flavor if i uses avocado oil in my bread recipe. I used it and tasted it. i DO NOT fucking like bread made with avocado oil.

i knew i liked what i had, i thought i would like it in something else, and i tried it and turns out it was vomit inducing

Who knows, maybe all our changes are awful ideas. I can say right now though that squad spawning tastes bad

[viscid magnet]

yeah black hawks are fine, except when you encounter one of those littlebird god players, that's when the problem begin, and people would start trying to use the BH as a battle heli instead of a transport one. (cause again, it's way safer to spawn in the battle than risking geting on a BH and getting killed while on it)

[tender aurora]

Well you didn't taste the bread prior only a part of what was used in it, thus you didn't fully taste the new til ya did

[trim turtle]

And i havent tasted these other ideas yet

[tender aurora]

Personally I don't find helis too much of a issue as of right now

I feel any issues they cause are also from squad spawns

(or at least amplified)

[trim turtle]

The nutty avocado flavor was overwhelmingly strong compared to most things i ate before. Something with how the bread cooks with avocado oil just massively increased the strength of the flavor

[viscid magnet]

nah, really skilled players in a littlebird are near to imposible to kill, it doesn't matter how good you are or what weapon/vehicle you use to try to bring it down.

[tender aurora]

to clarify Atomos I meant the black hawks

[viscid magnet]

oh xd

[tender aurora]

The little birds tend to be their own topic

it is similar to talking about ESFs and galaxies in planetside

[trim turtle]

Little birds dont count, they are vtol jets in disguise

[viscid magnet]

yeah BH are okey without littlebird god players existence or this scenario where there are 2 engis swauds waiting for you as soon as you leave the blue zone in your base.

[tender aurora]

Yes Galaxies can do battle but their main power is always getting infantry somewhere, ESFs however tend to be a headache to deal with if you don't also use a ESF (or overwhelming fire support from a squad)

[trim turtle]

Oh yea, engineers being able to repair flying BH is something goofy but at the least if a BH wants to be useful they sort of need put themselves at risk

[trim turtle]

I would often prop myself up on a rock and use anchor mode to shell esfs with vast volumes of 1 shots flying at then

Best AA platform

[tender aurora]

Things discussed so far (Feel free to knock me on the head if I missed anything)

1. Disable squad spawns unless by the beacon, squad leader or by one of the two previously listed & not in combat
2. Points/supply gained from defending (2.5x bonus for support & 400xp per minute)
3. Point multiplier if point has stayed in control
4. some form of supply generation
5. a defense zone around the capture zone
6. ability to get defense points while either shooting someone in the zone or being in the zone shooting out
7. Possibly some starting supplies
8. cheaper/more abundant beacons (possibly make it a gadget on SL with a CD)
9. more points & Interconnect the points (Disconnected points loses various spawn methods) to help establish a frontline
   10.Squad leader gets a Frree on CD Rally (Spawns in waves)
10. Buildable rally beacon allows team spawns
11. Spawn vehicles that must lock down to allow spawns

[tender aurora]

fellow TR main I see, I enjoy my AP Prowler as well

will admit the colossus was also fun for a similar reason

[reef rock]

Oh right, another suggestion: a reinforcement room you can get via squad points

It's just this small 5x5 with reinforced walls that different squads can place their rally points in which can serve as like a safe field spawn and also a good target for crowd control and suppression weapons if they can get to good positions

[tender aurora]

so a bunker of sorts

[trim turtle]

Add shovels so i can dig trenches

[tender aurora]

o we must make sure they can also be used for melee as well

[reef rock]

Lord almighty trenches would be nice

[tender aurora]

with a nice Pong whenever it hits a enemy on the head

[reef rock]

The trenches on that one map (with the small grey urban center and the marsh) are a nice fighting dynamic

[trim turtle]

Add rocket jumping while we are at it 😏

[tender aurora]

and I shall be honest, give me the ability to make wakistan bridge into a western front of WW1

I desire there to be a renaming of that map afterwards to Verdun

[reef rock]

4090 squad point V2 rocket

[tender aurora]

Ya know

Mortars could be a good idea

[reef rock]

Mortars would be an amazing idea especially if we get defensive play really effective and common

Maybe arty too

[icy seal]

I can already see people complaining about arty spam

[slow vault]

Hasn't that already been put on the hard no list?

Mortars, under barrel launchers, etc

[tender aurora]

Things that WILL NOT be added
Shotguns or Vehicles with rockets
ANY form of microtransaction
Battle Royale or Extraction modes
Parachutes or Minimap
Planes or jets
Killcam or Killstreaks
HP bar

so no rocket artillery

source is #1120044498957914132 message

[slow vault]

Right it was rocket arty

[tender aurora]

so mortars and normal artillery are fair game

hmm

Slight correction ; No Mobile rocket artillery

(Vehicles with rockets is the exact wording)

[reef rock]

Towed arty +_+

[tender aurora]

Towed rocket artillery

[trim turtle]

The rockets thing makes me scratch my head. Like, if we just reskin a tank round as a rocket with an exhaust plume then what is the deal really?

is it about tracking rockets? I get that but rockets in general confuses me

Like if i make two vehicles, one a self propelled gun and the other a rocket platform, and give them identical velocities and arcs amd damage and everything... then whats the deal?

[tender aurora]

well a tracking rocket is a missile

rocket tends to just refer to a more dumb fire setup

but yea fair there

[reef rock]

Real talk: can we trick oki into it by telling him that we want helis with grenade pods

That said i think it’s just the high splash high damage very low ammo count rockets that AH and some planes carried in BF

[trim turtle]

hear me out... gyrojet scatter gun. its "not a shotgun"

[reef rock]

We’re just expanding the battlebit universe lore

[trim turtle]

also, hold up. oki already fucking lied because engineers can shoot rpgs out of helis!

[reef rock]

To about the same effect, lol

Actually hold on let’s take this one to vehicles

[tender aurora]

Peanut, We know what we must do

We must assemble the Rocket copter squad

#off-topic message

[trim turtle]

I actually have seen the ocasional transport lb filled with engineers. Actually fucking terrifying, more so than the normal lb

[merry raven]

But at least that takes coordination

[tender aurora]

(plays blackwake) "BROADSIDE CANNONS FIRE!

[merry raven]

Lol rip blackwake

[reef rock]

The news copter with thirty tandems jesus christ

They’re letting off a salvo more powerful than actual attack helos

[tender aurora]

also side note while it is still in my head

I desire a bug when we first get mortars like this #off-topic message

[merry raven]

You'll just get people shooting mortars from spawn.

Or spawn camping gets worse 😂

[tender aurora]

depends how they setup the mortars to work

[merry raven]

Manual azimuth and elevation 😂

[radiant frigate]

please let me spawn on a flag thats being captured

[untold knoll]

I'd be in favor of that if the "threatened" radius is increased. As it currently stands, by the time you realize a base needs reinforcements, enemies are so close everyone is just going to get spawncamped.

[viscid magnet]

omg blackwake was so fucking good, it's a shame there isn't anything similar out there. Maybe we met each other?? I don't recall my name, but I was always captain of the PEEERRRKELE. And would (obviously) scream PEEERRKELE at my mic when we downed a enemy ship xd

[slow vault]

Would rather not make the "20 people appearing in front of me" issue worse

Squad spawning is already an issue

[trim turtle]

Not being able to spawn onto contested points is an issue though. It is currently too easy for a single guy to shut down a whole point

[icy seal]

I guess it’s mainly to prevent spawn camping

The spawn for point is static

Heck, even the E on Salhan can be camped when uncontested if the building is removed

You’re gonna spawn on a small hill snipable from every angle

[slow vault]

Not being able to spawn at a contested point is an issue because we have no incentive to defend points ATM and squad spawning makes leaving 1-3 defenders pointless

Giving incentives and lowering the ridiculous strength of squad spawning would fix that in a way that doesn't add problems that are just as bad

Capping points becomes impossible if 20 people can just pop in the moment you touch the point

So yeah, while reinforcing being one sided is absolutely an issue ATM, spawning at contested points isn't a good fix

[honest rose]

What about having to destroy a piece of equipment to prevent defenders spawning? Something that can be repaired by an engineer with a repair tool.

[trim turtle]

Yet another step closer to planetside 2 😏

[tender aurora]

so similar to PS2's SCU (Spawn containment unit)

[honest rose]

Unsure, haven't played planetside 2 in a long long time

[tender aurora]

as all know, Planetside 2 is a Good game lol

[trim turtle]

Some facilities had objectives that protected the spawn room and destorying them is a major objective to prevent defenders from continuing to spawn in

[honest rose]

Ohhh yea, I wouldn't quite go that far, just a statically placed relay point that needs some explosives to destroy

[slow vault]

Risks increasing the "throw hundreds of explosives at the point" problem

Speaking of stealing from PlanetSide though, maybe making multiple sub points you have to cap would help

As long as a sub point wasn't contested, people could spawn on them

[trim turtle]

Might be better

[slow vault]

I do agree adding more steps of some kind could improve it

[icy seal]

sounds like frontline lol

[slow vault]

Maybe instead of destroy, something that has to be interacted with to turn on/of?

To get around the explosives spam issue and give a more tangible defense objective

[honest rose]

Blowing stuff up is fun, though having something you have to stand at and hold F like arming/defusing the bomb on rush would be fine

[slow vault]

Would also mean you have to have people at the point to contest it instead of lobbing explosives from a mile out being a good option

[honest rose]

Also true

Perhaps not on every game mode, maybe just conquest, would definitely make for something more fun to fight over

[slow vault]

Would give more stakes to defending and honestly be pretty fun

I know some of the best fun I had in PlanetSide while defending was keeping those spawn points protected. It's high impact so it feels like you're doing something even while not on the offensive

[untold knoll]

This is a great point. Right now defending a point is basically the same as finding an enemy anywhere else, just chase them around and shoot. In PS2 you absolutely had epic moments coordinating with an entire platoon to storm a capture point or hold out against such an attempt.

[viscid magnet]

I just saw on reddit that some patreon supporter said that you guys had access to some kind of exclusive development news for patreo supporters confirming a nerf to lean spamming.

So, I was wondering, any news about spawning mechanics that you could share with us the commoners?. (he said you guys can't share footage but can talk about it)

[honest rose]

Lmao what? I have no clue

I know Oki made some community server bits for toggling different types of spawns, but thats it

[viscid magnet]

here is the post I saw, It seems to come from this same discord server (no idea wich thread)

https://www.reddit.com/r/BattleBitRemastered/comments/15yugwz/patreon_backer_with_insider_knowledge_leaks/

apparently you get access to some test server or something??

[honest rose]

Only specially selected snowflakes

[viscid magnet]

damn u.u

I just want to check this discord one day and see ANY news about spawning at all xddd

thanks tho for answering that fast

any specially selected snowflake here?? 😂

[wise shard]

At this point just remove the "In Combat" it doesn't stop getting immediately killed and it's more of an annoyance over anything

[pearl crystal]

Spawning mechanic is quite alright imo. The only problem I have with it is that you can't spawn on conquested points, like in BFV, so it makes defense harder to achive.
Also, it makes some transport vehicles useless. APC for example(and big boat too, the same problem) don't see much use as transport because people are using either helis, which are the only thing that can compete with squad spawn system, or use vehicles they can controll. So, the vehicles that work like public transport, aren't used at all, at best as glorified rally.

Idk if that's bad, but it definitely clashes with thise vehicles identity

[untold knoll]

Blocking spawning into vehicles when the capture point itself is contested is definitely way too much. At the very least the team should be allowed to spawn into vehicles as long as the point hasnt fully flipped.

[icy seal]

Points flip too fast at times (especially when blobs form), there needs to be a way to cap cap speed

It’s also worth noting that it’s exclusively hard to die in blob cuz the abundance of random medic around

Even a gun noob easily scores 3KD

[pearl crystal]

Nah, not 3, 2KD maybe, consistent 3KD is like top 20%?, definetly not a average "gun noob"

[random folio]

All I can say is that spawning on squadmates can only continue to exist if we're allowed to spawn on contested points, because capturers have a massive advantage. Usually, I'd say I can almost always spawn on squadmates when attacking, but almost never when they're trying to defend. Not sure what the parameters for "in combat" are, but they're absolutely busted and wildly inconsistent.

[icy seal]

They’re two irrelevant topics, the illusion of attacker advantage is due to blobbing

Support is supposed to be anti blob by applying massive AoE suppression but currently it’s apparently not working

[random folio]

I mean, I think the only real way to counter blobbing, short of just removing the capability, would be a counter-blob by spawning on the point itself

[icy seal]

you're overestimating people's willingness to cooperate in pub

[slow vault]

its not really cooperation, its just going where you know kills are. if you just died and see a point being capped, you know spawning there will do something. if a few dozen people are dead, you now have a blob. requires no more organised teamwork than running to the next objective

[trim turtle]

blobs are self organizing, they tend to take the path of least resistance to the closest points (people tend to be more likely to run towards closer points than further points). the "path of least resistance" part is a bit of a problem though. it tends to mean blobs end up flowing into empty areas

as you said, if a few dozen people are dead and spawn you now have a blob. lets imagine that there are two points nearby though and that blob splits and start running towards two separate points so that we have two blobs. now imagine those two blobs spread out and one ends up engaging with enemies of roughly equal numbers. well, that half gets stuck with people being unable to spawn on them due to combat but the other half keeps running and eventually crashes over a point. the blobs that manage to avoid combat just get bigger and eventually wash over a point in overwhelming numbers and then they get stuck running in circles doing this

[slow vault]

unfortunately thats where we are already, just with fewer steps. I dont think contested point spawning is the solution but I dont think it'd make that particular issue worse. Though as ive said previously it would make flanking extremely difficult because then youre a handful of people against the massive blob that popped up the instant you touched the point

[icy seal]

from my experience camping APC in blue to guard the last point, at most ONE squad worth of people will spawn in AFTER the point is capped by enemy

I believe that says for everything

changing to allow spawning when contested will have next to no impact

unless cap speed is constant (for example, 2% per second regardless of amount of players in point), a hot drop of 8 is going to cap the point before you can do anything about it

Hell let loose is at a whopping 120 sec cap

you can surely do a hell lot in two minutes

[untold knoll]

Yes, that too is a dumb system. This is why I'm personally in favor of physically interactable cap points. A single person would be able to hold/capture a base against a numerically superior force. Rats wouldn't be able to just get free points by sitting on the edge of the capture area and walking into it when people start moving elsewhere.

[reef rock]

Even without that, cap points need to have their borders reworked

I’ve had enough of some tiny corner upstairs in a neighboring building harboring one guy despite it being inaccessible from the rest of the point

[trim turtle]

This is why flattening points is the best defensive strategy 😔

[slow vault]

yeah thats beyond stupid. im horrible with map names, but that map where C point is like 3-4 apartment buildings with an alleyway between them inevitably turns into every single destructible thing being blown because (rightfully) nobody wants to spend 10 minutes searching room by room in all the buildings

[trim turtle]

Honestly, game needs to learn from tf2. There is a reason the game caps the speed from players on an objective at 2

[reef rock]

Even call of duty has a obj capture speed cap

[trim turtle]

If they want buildings on a point without it being too obnoxious they should surround the point with building and leave the point itself open or have only one or two buildings with an open floor plan instead of dozens of rooms and floors.

warehouses are fine, apartment complexes are hell!

[slow vault]

one apartment complex is hell, yet that one gifts us with like 3 🤣

[reef rock]

God damn eduardovo e

You can never find that one fucker hiding in that school before the enemies come around

[trim turtle]

Man, i dont plane that map enough to know. I do know i hate that fucking that north side of the map ever since claymore spam was removed. Too fucking hard to search every bush 10-20 meters off the point to find which one will randomly speak m249 at your face and has been shitting out an entire squad

[slow vault]

If they want the points to be that big, they should go the planetside 2 route of having multiple mini points that need to be capped to capture the location, that way you know where youre being contested

[reef rock]

It’s so nice as a map except for the d-e stretch where literally everyone is doing that one battlefield friends joke about putting one foot in the obj

Dumb amounts of dead space also let people escape easy

[trim turtle]

Claymore spam made that north point with bushes and reeds everywhere tolerable because i could place some down and force enemies to slow down and check where they step instead of sprinting at mach 10 into the capture zone from a bush i couldnt see them in and shooting me before i can even react

[trim turtle]

Feels like that is most maps nowadays, everyone just putting one foot on the point...

[icy seal]

you mean one toe

dipping one pixel into the point mmmm

speaking of which I'm not sure why salhan A point is designed that way

[trim turtle]

Basara is actually somewhat enjoyable with how it funnels players into the center

[icy seal]

the building with tunnel is not completely covered I sometimes miss the cap score

[trim turtle]

Frugis is even more of a clusterfuck of random people popping out of random than it was at launch

Frugis was actually really fun at launch. Niw it just feels like a slog

[icy seal]

I don't really like frugis, too many buildings = too many windows to check

oh and certain buildings people just delete the stairs and camp upstairs like tumor

[trim turtle]

Its only really an issue with how the density of players on maps has decreased since launch. 1 squad trying to clear a building? Thats hell. At launch though it was more like 3-4 squads rolling through buildings because people were not backcapping and bushcamping at rear points yet

[trim turtle]

I am sorry. I am one of those players

im forced to do it though because if i dint some random dude who somehow walked 100m through the front lines and right up to my ass with nobody on my team noticing will shoot me in the back of the head

Like seriously it is not uncommon nowadays for me to walk up stairs see an enemy player shooting out a window on one side of a building and then a team mate shooting out on the other side without either having noticed the other despite literally being in the same room

Frugis is just too fucking cluttered for anywhere to have any real security unless you go to the top floor and destroy the stairs

[icy seal]

which is worse: new district or frugis

[trim turtle]

District at least has some variety with terrain

I mean, frugis technically has that with the subway

[reef rock]

And even that’s slowly failing

[trim turtle]

But new district would be a lot more fun if i only had to worry about bushes and trees speaking m249 instead of them deciding to shit out squad up my ass

[reef rock]

The blobs form around backcaps much faster than they do central chokes now so it instead becomes blob movement between three points on one side of the map

[reef rock]

I am one of those people. You shall not pass.

Also this creates a weird situation on some maps like wineparadise where 2/3rds of the game is playing blob movement and the remaining third are just playing a gimped version of bf4 on the empty half of the map

[trim turtle]

Path of least resistance. A blob dominating an area will be more likely to have people out of combat and will have an easier time reviving people and so the blob grows and grows. Any opposing blob will just get swept aside unless it is of near equal strength and so enemies end up blobbing elsewhere instead of where the fights would be

[reef rock]

I think this is why 127/127 has managed to nearly totally kill 64/64 on jp servers, because for many games you can find arenas where you’re playing 127 and 32

[reef rock]

Also it’s encouraged by the current vehicle passivity which confines them to the areas around spawns, which means the defending blob will have the benefit of relatively powerful armor support (i suspect a negligible effect though)

[trim turtle]

It really is just this simple. Like for real, the devs need to go play planetside and learn a bit about why latice was a thing.

it was literaly designed so that players get funneled towards bases and cant just sneak all the way deep into enemy territory and start randomly capturing unconnected bases

[vivid wagon]

so like frontline but with no safe zone?

[trim turtle]

Sure, an infiltrator could sneak to the base the enemy zerg is coming from and start capturing it and force them to turn around... but he isnt going to go like 3-4 points deep and do that. Only one point. Sufficiently annyoing and productive (literally can stall attacks into nothingness unless a response is made as they cant capture their objective anymore) without outright dominating

[trim turtle]

Pretty much actually, but you generally had like 2 or 3 paths from any base so there was still choice

It wasnt entirely just a straight line

Vehicles were also much more important in planetside because of the lack of squad soawning

Not uncommon to see a zerg capture a base and then like 12 sunderers get purchased and for people to fill them up the moment they roll off the pad

[vivid wagon]

There's a territory gamemode in squad where the map is evenly divided into hexes, and you need to have your team's territory adjacent to the one you're capturing to completely capture it. only some maps rn would make that an enjoyable experience rn, but I think it's a good idea to split up blobs and make a more sane frontline

[trim turtle]

Planetide 2 used to only require adjacentcy but they had to add latice because people would scale sheer cliffs to try and attack theoretically adjacent territories. It gave a little too much choice to players and made it too easy to capture undefended and empty facilities

It was sort of an issue, too easy for a clan to scatter a few squads across 3-4 bordering facilities and expect to take one with no resistancr if not most

Because more players are following the lay of the land and not considering an attack up a sheer cliff, so of course there are no defenders at those places

Or that the area to defend is just too wide and it is too easy for sunderers to sneak through... basically a similar issue as squad spawning right noe

[icy seal]

how do other games solve blobbing issue

even if you somehow managed to get 8 best players in one squad I doubt it can do anything about a blob of 40

[trim turtle]

Generally by having systems in place to slowly equalize numbers. Planetside had a "quick deploy" option which would send you somewhere your team is currently outnumbered until nunbers somewhat equalize

Also slowed down movement of blobs to allow the other side to respond

So instead on your blob capturing one facility and then reaching the next in like 10 seconds and capturing that one in like 5 seconds the capture times were much longer and the distance between points of interest were longer

[icy seal]

the most unfun moment are when I got ran over by blob or when I suddenly brain dead and join friendly blob, first feel powerless and second feel effortless

my KD often get 2x or 3x joinging friendly blob

[trim turtle]

Yea, planetside tried to funnel blobs into each other so that effortless feeling only lasts for like 1 or two bases you capture in like 5 minutes each and then you grt a good fight

[icy seal]

meatgrinder is fun yeah

but not the bridge

[trim turtle]

Meatgrinder, but also with enough open space and alternarive paths that flabking was a thing you could do that was very rewarding

It would be something like two blobs duking it out over a wide open plane with rocky paths along the sides. They would ebb back and forth as risky sunderer plays were made to push a spawn point forwards or a sunderer gets taken out from a flank or a tank assault or such

And usually one side eventually gets a really well placed sunderer in a powerful flanking spot and then they push the hostile blob back or wipe them out entirely forcing them to respawn and prepare defenses at the base

Planetisde also was generally advantagous for defenders as i remember it unless your enemy reached a critical mass of tanks shelling you (and even then some bases were rather protected from vehicles). Sunderers were rather fragile and vulnerable and the only spot for for attackers to spawn on so if the defenders manage to take out the sunderers the whole attack collapses

So 5vs20 doesnt matter because it was worth it to try risky shit and drop c4 on the sunderer or destroy it somehow and it would completely neuter the attackers

[tender aurora]

Would agree based on base in question, but yea defender sided overall (Very for biolabs)

I know the Majors like Amps if I recall correctly have tunnels for defenders to exit from multiple sections

otherwise the other major attacker spawn source (squad beacons) gave a nice light up in the sky

[trim turtle]

Yea, defenders generally only had to win once to seriously hurt or even stop an attack: destroy the enemy sunderer

meanwhile attackers needed to hold several capture points for... man how many minutes was it? It scaled based off the number of points you held but i remember it taking 10+ minutes sometines

If you had all of then it would only be like 3 minutes or something

[tender aurora]

depends on base

But to sum up 3 point bases if you had all 3 points was around 5-10 minutes

keep in mind

if they lost their defense on the connecting terr, they can no longer capture points (but can hold what they do have to potentially capture still)

[trim turtle]

5-10 minutes is huge in bbr time

[tender aurora]

In fairiness points can be took in less than a minute to 30 second

in BBR

Other sources of defender/attacker spawns are also Routers (Requires a nearby constructed base)

Things discussed so far (Feel free to knock me on the head if I missed anything)

1. Disable squad spawns unless by the beacon, squad leader or by one of the two previously listed & not in combat
2. Points/supply gained from defending (2.5x bonus for support & 400xp per minute)
3. Point multiplier if point has stayed in control
4. some form of supply generation
5. a defense zone around the capture zone
6. ability to get defense points while either shooting someone in the zone or being in the zone shooting out
7. Possibly some starting supplies
8. cheaper/more abundant beacons (possibly make it a gadget on SL with a CD)
9. more points & Interconnect the points (Disconnected points loses various spawn methods) to help establish a frontline
   10.Squad leader gets a Frree on CD Rally (Spawns in waves)
10. Buildable rally beacon allows team spawns
11. Spawn vehicles that must lock down to allow spawns
    13.a reinforcement room
12. Shovels for entrenchment & Melee (PONG!)
13. Mortars
14. How blobs & such form (and tend to get bigger from flanking more than a clash near center) , as well as take path of least resistance

[marble sun]

I've played both PS1 and PS2 for years and while you are somewhat right, the big difference is that in PS2 the bases are completely static and indestructible. So they had to resort to spawn camping with HESH to fix this self-inflicted problem. We don't have it in BBR.

[marble sun]

This seems to be the prevalent strategy on any remotely urban map these days, and should probably be addressed in some way, along with making building destruction more clear/telegraphed. But that I guess is a discussion for another thread.

[icy seal]

Slightly off topic: intentionally collapsing buildings doesn’t award you if you kill enemy players within, but the game does award you with [null] kill if you topple tower-like structures and kill enemies on it

[merry raven]

Yeah, but sometimes the kill award is buggy. I've knocked down turbines with like 5 people on it and only got 2 kills attributed

[untold knoll]

An additional thing that kept PS2 interesting (at least to me) for a long time was The Crown + TI Alloys bridge battles. It was beautiful chaos, and even if the map itself was exactly the same all the time, it felt like a very dynamic battlefield with constant pushes and counter-pushes.

In BB there's just an amorphous clusterfuck all the time, every game feels very similar to the last one.

And I would state with high confidence that a big reason for those dynamics were fixed spawn points and fixed capture points.

In those meatgrinders, nobody ever reached any capture point or destroyed all spawns, but the constant threat and maneuvers trying to do so was what kept things interesting.

Also those open field battles between Indar Excavation and Quartz Ridge 😍

[wise shard]

My biggest annoyance is a squad mate not being in combat, clicking them and then all of a sudden they are in combat. I really don't think the "In combat" system should be in the game, you are taking a chance at spawning on a teammate anyways and it doesn't perfect instant kills

[slow vault]

Squad spawning is already overpowered without the ability to drop in whenever you want, honestly

yeah its annoying how clunky trying to spawn is at times but thats more a ui issue than anything, letting us always spawn would make the issue of squads multiplying mid combat even harder to deal with for no real reason

[wise shard]

I suppose but yeah it's frustrating

[trim turtle]

man, week by week the game turns more and more steamrolly. it feels like you either have no fight or random surges of 50 players washing over a point out of nowhere with very little in between. the game really is just way too fucking fast

honestly, the more i think about it 127v127 is just poorly designed

[untold knoll]

Planetside never made it work either. Any actual large battles just devolved in a mess. Trying to combine large player counts with do-what-I-want run and gun mechanics is a recipe for silliness.

In general it should be obvious that literally for any kind of game you can imagine, increasing player counts without decreasing the agency of individual players cannot lead to good gameplay for the average player.

[untold knoll]

The thing I'm seeing in every single game now is a bunch of players beelining it for the cap point closest to the enemy spawn and then just spend their time farming people trying to leave or take the base back.

[reef rock]

hell, we've hit the point where a lot of people will spend more time in the blob than they will spend time near an obj on some maps, especally isle

[marble sun]

That's just a natural consequence of the average skill of the player base going up. A few people mentioned PS2 up in this thread, same thing happened there. Over time people just figured that open world fights give you nothing and only expose you to get farmed by snipers, so the fun and chaotic engagements simply stopped in favor of capping bases, often times with no resistance cause that's what the game encourages you to do. And in BB, the game encourages you to trade points instead of defending them. So of course half of the enemy team would collapse on an objective and then run onwards, while your team is backcapping their shit.

[merry raven]

yeah conquest is scuffed for that scoring aspect

[untold knoll]

Yeah and that's why all of my friends dropped the game. Can't expect to retain the players who try a game advertising big epic battles when all you get is people clicking a revive prompt for 30 minutes among so many explosions sound starts bugging out.

And, it's worth noting, that is also what the Battlebit trailers and the initial coverage focused on.

[trim turtle]

I think a good example of how just increasing player counts can cause issues is with vehicles.

everyone has some sort of antivehicle tool nowadays, be it c4, mines, or rpgs. Its not so much if an issue with fewer players but once you get 127 players on the map a lot of vehicles become pinatas if you drive out past your rear points.

Amusingly, it actually plays like how armor would be used irl. If you are in a place where antiarmor weapons are very prevelant then you keep your vehicles further back, avoid any and all buildings and dense foliage in favor of open ground, and use the vehicles as support rather than as some sort of breakthrough vehicle.

so, if they wanted to make a milsim they are going in the right direction

[trim turtle]

Ye, but planetside at least tries to funnel players into each other. Sure, it is totally possible for two zergs to miss each other or for players to try and avoid large fights in favor attacking enpty bases but they were at least aware that was a problem.

bbr doesnt really have anything in it to try and encourage fights except for the map design

District, though fun, is a stellar example of how most of the maps dont really push players towards each other.

basara is bad for a few reasons but one good thing is does is at the least the funnel shape it has sort of pushes people into the center.

[random folio]

I think this is mostly an issue of not moving up with infantry support who can cover for you and repair when you need to reload or back off

I do agree that there's almost too much access to anti-armor capabilities

There's just a lot of people I like to call "feeders" who think armored vehicles are a powerup instead of an alternate playstyle

[trim turtle]

No... vehicles really are just too expensive to even think about doing that. Its like a several minute respawn timer if you fuck up and with how many threats there are it is super easy to fuck up.

[random folio]

Would love to see more vehicle focused maps like BF3 had in the Armored Kill expansion that you can get good practive in

[random folio]

I do this all the time, just git gud lol

[trim turtle]

Thanks for the contribution

[random folio]

It helps having a crew and a communicative squad I will admit

I'm almost strictly an engi and tank or APC main, so I know people can absolutely use them to much greater effect

Hiding in the back is a safe way to get kills, but it doesn't result in game-winning plays

Tanks and APCs should be used moreso as a blob force multiplier, but you absolutely have to stay with your team

Otherwise you get picked off very quickly

There's also a ton of players who will just kamikaze into the enemy blob when low on health instead of RTBing

I do think tank and APC spawn timers should be a lot shorter tho

People should get the opportunity to play with them

Otherwise tank goblins like me will always be waiting to snatch them up

[trim turtle]

Takes like 2 minutes for a round trip (counting repair) to back off from the center of the map and then return if you get damaged.

playing forwards is generally too risky and honestly doesnt contribute much. You do more guarding the rear points from backcapping

Anyways, this belongs in vehicle feedback

[trim turtle]

And you should avoid saying anything like "git good" or "skill issue" if you dont want to crater your credibility and get ignored

[random folio]

I'll say this last point before moving discussions, but this is entirely map contextual and matches are pretty long. A lot of players spend two minutes running from one point to another on foot anyways, so returning to base in order to keep your tank running and not lose it to some guy who will feed an easy kill on respawn is worth it.

[random folio]

Fair enough, was being a lil sillay

[trim turtle]

Generally true, but the difference is if you die you can generally spawn a few seconds away as infantry where as a vehicle has to wait for the respawn.

so it would be like if every time someone got shot they had to run back to a previous point to fully heal up and rearm before heading back. That would fucking suck

[random folio]

Eh, tanks have a considerably higher kill potential than a single infantry unit of comparable skill at any given point. You can rack up more kills in a single load of high-ex rounds than most people will get in the entire match.

Being down for a couple minutes and checking your map to see where the flow of combat is going while you're at base also helps to make educated decisions

I admit, most people probably don't do that at all

But it does make a massive difference

[icy seal]

time played in HLL paid off, checking map constantly has became my second nature

[pearl crystal]

Tanks have, only in theory, the highest kill potential, ture. But they are often outperformed by inf or Helis, except on 2-3 maps.
Seeing good scores in tanks is rare.

[reef rock]

*seeing good scores on tanks that actually did something important is rare

[pearl crystal]

No, that's VERY rare

[outer summit]

the fact you can rejoin the server you just left AND are able to join just ending games leaves you with unintentially rejoining a ended game which is somehow more frusterating then joining a ended game alone

[icy seal]

manual respawn button should separate from change team

[merry raven]

Yeah, no confirm button for changing team is 🗿

[silent harbor]

Why is change team even a feature

It's not consequential right now but it doesn't sit right with me on principle

[merry raven]

Idk to link up with friends when party system fucks up 😂

Can't swap to a winning team anyway 😂

[silent harbor]

Point multiplier if point has stayed in control
I think putting "bounties" for both attackers and defenders on Control Points that are not over-taken after a set amount of time is a good idea. It would signal people "hey look, this is where the next big fight is going to be!"

There'd be multiple tiers. Each tier can only have a certain amount of control points in it i.e. the highest tier can have only 1 control point then 2nd highest can have 2 and everything else can only ever go up 1 tier. This way if you don't want to be in the meat grinder you can go out and capture the other control points.

A big issue is that exp quickly becomes "useless" as you level up making kills much more attractive so I think the attachment system needs to be decoupled from kills

[thick skiff]

so you can join your friends and then change to the other team to grief them

[slow vault]

And so you can find the server a streamer is on and then swap to the enemy team and streamsnipe them

(actually had a streamer dealing with this in my squad a few days back)

[trim turtle]

Whoah, i had no idea battlebit had a "protect the president" mode

[hot blade]

that would require said person to be on the LOSING team,as you cant switch to winning teams cause of people switching at the end anymore. Streamers should just hide themselves logging into a server and use streamer mode. The game isn't really made for streamers, as its core community aren't. It's not really an issue when it affects maybe 1 or 2 people.

[viscid magnet]

I just want to say this is still one of the biggest issues in the game.

I personally don't play that much anymore, I got tired of zergs running around the map, or squads of engineers camping the enemy spawn for vehicles and back capture.

I'm afraid most people that used to discuss here and provided a lote of feedback and ideas are in a similar situation I am, tired of the game and the apparent lack of interest from the devs for fixing this.

I havent played in like a week, even tho I tried but it's just not fun anymore for me, and just check the discord in hope they anounce at least some attempt to fix this.

posting this comments just to make sure the devs don't get the idea that this topic is not relevant anymore. The big problem IMO is that anyone that is aware of this problem know that it's not gona fix itself, it will only get worse as more people learn the ''meta'' way of playing. So, you just give up if you don't see progress.

[silent harbor]

Have a game whose main played mode is objective based
Make the spawn and reward system in a way that forces players to ignore playing the objective and just keeping with the zerg

[icy seal]

It does encourage players to zoom around and cap but doesn’t incentivize defending

It also has a hidden “buff” earning more points if both sides just zoom around and cap easily cuz each cap is like 10 kills worth of xp minimum

[silent harbor]

Yeah, the "Merry-go-round" style of gameplay that you'll see on most maps that aren't like Wakistan with a natural choke point

[icy seal]

ngl the most fun I had was 32v32 frugis dom which the field is limited to subway only

[unique bridge]

how long does the spawn armor last?

[icy seal]

Anywhere from 3 to 8 seconds I think varies by point and wears off immediately if you run out of the designated area or do any attack I think?

[unique bridge]

ah cause i was wondering about this

[silent harbor]

too long

moving doesn't cancel it either neither does shooting

[icy seal]

wait what, so it disappearing from screen doesn’t mean it’s not there?

Bummers

[blissful mist]

Looked at squadmate who isn't in combat since 20 ish seconds
Not anyone around the squadmate is in combat
Assumes it's safe
Spawn on squadmate in a building in frugis
Immediately dies because of a sniper bullet which was destined for my squadmate

Please, please add at least one second of spawn protection when spawning on squadmates, or at least tag people in combat when they are in the sight line of an enemy

[snow flume]

i dont think a case of bad luck is enough to warrant complete spawn protection when spawning on a player

its already pretty questionable that you can spawn on any of your squadmate, as it tends to circumvent the objective-based nature of the gamemodes and is extremely cheesable

[gleaming condor]

not to mention there is already spawn protection if you don't move

[snow flume]

im a braindead w-holder on spawn, so I always fuck myself over in that regard no matter where I spawn lol

[hot blade]

Couldn't have said it better

[silent harbor]

There's spawn protection even if you move and shoot - got a video of it

Generally, the spawn system just needs to be more restrictive to prevent feelbad moments. I think the squad spawn system just hurts the game more than it helps - it single handedly kills defensive play because you'll eventually just over run any singular point with little effort on your part since it's so attacker favored

[velvet wadi]

Spawning on other players is good

It should be more restrictive though

[silent harbor]

I'm against it - it destroys frontlines and causes rat tactics to be overbearing. Structure spawning is significantly superior for the game's long-term health

[velvet wadi]

What’s structure spawning?

[silent harbor]

It's what the SL's have - they can place down a radio that people can spawn on. In one of the BF games the sniping class also had a mobile spawner they can place

In SQUAD people can build FOB's to spawn on

[velvet wadi]

Oh yeah

Good call

I like spawning on teammates so I can just get to a fight quick

[silent harbor]

I'm personally for removing the cost to place radios and making it cooldown based and probably changing the rules on vehicles so you can spawn in them in some capacity

Yeah, I'm all for better spawns to get into the action I just think it shouldn't be something as versatile as squad spawns

[velvet wadi]

APCs should definitely have better squad movement capabilities

Like

Easy to spawn on them

[silent harbor]

Yeah. You can already 1 shot them and they're not easy to hide so I think that would be a lot better and encourage people to not camp with them on spawn

[velvet wadi]

While I love swarming an objective it often feels underserved

[silent harbor]

I think blackhawks need to be revamped too. Remove the tail rotor mechanic and reduce their health by half. Instead of exploding they always tail spin out to the ground. In exchange people can queue up to spawn on the blackhawk every 15-20 seconds

[velvet wadi]

Ooooh

Good idea

[silent harbor]

It's so dumb blackhawks are SO fucking tanky but you can 1 tap them with an APC

[velvet wadi]

I absolutely love the effect when the heli crashes

[silent harbor]

Me too, it's pretty cool

[velvet wadi]

It feels so atmospheric

And scary

Like just waiting in anticipation to see if you’ve survived

[trim turtle]

man ctf is ass with squad spawning once numbers drop too low

[trim turtle]

alright, there is this goofy ass 24/7 frontline server with a 2s respawn timer and a player limit on recon as if recon is going to ever be an issue when respawns are literally instant

[radiant frigate]

the spawn mechanics in this game are absolute dogshit

[viscid magnet]

I honestly feel the spawn system works way better in that server than in vanilla conquest. There is a clear front and rearguard instead of the hot mess you get on conquest.

Not to mention they nerfed the medic by making you get full HP when stoping your bleeding whit a bandage, and you get a lote more class variety that way (I pray every day for oki to get over he's bias and actually nerf the medic)

.

btw, I'm a sniper main, and I absolutely love that server, it's not the fact that they limit the sniper amount to 1 by squad (you can always make a new squad if you totally want to play recon), but it's the fact that I can actually be behind my team (100m-300m) providing support and being a human spawn, instead of being forced to find a place to hide really far away (over 400m-700m) to somehow be safe from flankers/backcappers.

.

I would make something like frontline the main game mode, because I do think the spawn system work better there, and the game have more logical sense, with just 2 little tweaks:

-Heavily reduce the capture speed, it's annoying when your team capture, so you push, but the enemy team instantly capture back, and you have to run back, and your team capture again, so you push, and the enemy capture again, so yo retreat. over and over again (it's not always, but this shouldnt happen)

-Give squads new ways to earn squad points, if you squad doesn't get to be part of the very first captures, you might end playing the whole match without squad points.

[trim turtle]

Frontline is a better mode than conquest. My real issue is the super fast respawn timer in that server is a little too fast. Its really hard to make progress anywhere because you cant have decisive fights because everyone you manage to kill in a flank you perform is already back by the time you reload.

basically, what i think is ideal is something closer to the gameplay pace of tf2 where well won fights allow ground to be gained and objectives taken before the opposing team manages to reengage you. When spawns are too fast it becomes a near permanent clusterfuck tug-of-war where wat matters is how many players you can throw at each other faster. When captures are too fast relative to defender spawn speeds it becomes a steamroll instead. There is a balance here

Like i do enjoy that server for the near constant clusterfuck, but speaking from a general balance perspective...

The time it takes to capture a ctf flag is actually better imo for what capture speed should be like

[pure nexus]

If death immediately after revive, please set respawn timer to 0.

[vivid wagon]

waive respawn delay when spawning in main base

[noble walrus]

the thing is

medic is actually really balanced

its the other classes that need buffs because they are too weak

like either more bandages, and/or bandages need to actually full heal you

or even just heal you on top of stopping bleeding

[reef rock]

The problem is if we do that instead of mitigating the overly high aggression we just turn more people into a cokehead playing call of duty on larger maps tbh

It just narrows the viable/common game tactics/playstyles even further which is half the problem with medics, not merely that it’s more powerful

[honest rose]

Sorry, you're objectively wrong (but also kind of right if you took Medic as the average). You have a class which has the most longevity (self-healing) and fastest move speed, and you give them a weapon class that benefits massively from them and acts as a multiplier instead of a check and balance. There is currently no actual downside to playing medic, it's fast enough and has enough survivability to either remove itself from any disadvantageous situation or close the distance until it has the advantage. Move speed doesn't just affect literal move speed, but also the available routes and paths due to jump distance which has a significant effect on the game.

Upping everyone to Medics level would result in a massively chaotic game where classes have no real limitation and the lines between them are so blurred as to not exist

Medics self-healing is the tip of the iceberg, it's how that self healing combines with speed and firepower which causes the feeling of brokenness

Self-healing unto itself isn't broken

[pearl crystal]

Don't forget that the fastest and most survivable class have also the best AT tool in the game.
Pair that with movement speed high enough to out run vehicles in some conditions, and you have class that is very good at everything. And have acces to all the best tools.

Medic also can snipe, just put ACOG on Scar, and you have quite competent DMR

[frosty barn]

When trying to spawn on someone, it'd be nice if when a player is trying to spawn on you their name would highlight or something in the bottom left a certain color, or maybe just a little icon next to their name.

You may say this would reveal when you're in combat or there's people around you, but with voice comms that's a thing anyway. I rat on people around my friends and for my squad mates all the time

Also for vehicle spawns, can we PLEASE get like a little filling box/timer on the spawn locations of vehicles? I know the heli takes like 4 minutes to respawn, but it'd be super nice to know when it's about to spawn, or how long I'd have to wait for it. That way if my squad members and I wanna run tank we don't need a guy getting lucky or sitting and waiting all day for them to spawn in.

[viscid magnet]

how in earth can a class be ''really balanced'' while all the other classes ''need buffs''??

You know what ''balanced'' mean?? it's not ''what I like''.

I'm sorry, but at this point, after seeing the game meta and playstiles evolve to what is the current meta, where everyone play in auto-pilot mode, because you just run around killing people you catch by surprise, until someone does the same to you. I believe more than ever before that the medic, and what that class represent, is the actual problem.

The movement speed, the high acceleration, the lack of inertia, and the ''spawn wherever you want'' system are a really bad concept for a 127v127 game. A support player that take 2-3 minutes to reinforce a position to defend it is just helpless when a bunch of medics aproach moving at really high speed, zigzagin in the air, respawning in their teammate hiding behind a rock a few seconds after you killed them.

And you give all of that; the higher speed in the game, the better weapons in the game wich are also the lightest (SMGs) capable of outgunning riffles and even some snipers if you are not at +400m from them, AND on top of that the best self-healing capabilities of all classes by a lote.

And yeah, OF COURSE the class that is suposed to defend and fortify areas won't work, because it's signature is a armor that will nerf your movement speed for a slight advantage in the very first fight. O F COURSE the class that it's suposed to be supressing enemy pushes and watching their teammates flanks won't work because they have to play far away from the battle where it's useless, OF COURSE the class that is supposed to be the first going to action running around clearing buildings won't work, because they are otuclassed by a medic, they have worst self-healing capabilities than the medic, and don't even get any special weapon class the medic doesn't.

And OF COURSE the squad leader that it's supposed to...I don't even know why that class exist.

Engineers will always have a place for them as long as conquest exist, and their RPGs are kind of cool, but leaving aside RPGs, they are just another worse version of the medic.

Every class is a worse version of the medic, because either they are outperformed by the medic in what they are supposed to be good at, or the playstile that is supposed to be better for them doesn't really exist (or work) in the actual gameplay.

I honestly can't even understand how people think that is OK that the medic is the best fighting class, it's a medica, call it a healer, a priest, it's supposed to be worse at fighting in exchange for being really valuable to sustain others (and themselves) in the battlefield. Let the assault be the best fighting class if this is exactly the gameplay you want the game to have (a terrible idea IMO).

But get over this ''the medic is great, the other classes need to become medic-like'', it's just nonsense. Even if the game developers want the headles chickens running around to be the way this game is played, it still doesn't make sense that the healer class get to be also the best at it.

[random folio]

You've hit the nail on the head so hard it blew through the wood completely. Honestly I think it would be best to remove self heal entirely.

[silent harbor]

Recon's issue is that it's simultaneously NOT impactful due to pick-offs meaning nothing due to the spawn system and being unable to contest a control point physically while also being overtly impactful by essentially denying entire swaths of area while being untouchable unless someone goes out of their way to flank and kill them or by another sniper.

Even when/if Oki eventually changes maps to nerf sniper like he said he is I don't know how you can fix their fundamental issue without making deaths meaningful

[lofty lotus]

Yep, force everyone to heal off dropped medic box if a medic won't heal them directly (not even medics get self heal). Give support a similar armour pack.

Though this seems like the wrong thread for this

Squad spawning is definitely too much for any semblance of a tactical game, the non stop backcapping is worse here in some ways than any similar game.

[snow flume]

yep. the game mechanics (bleeding, the ability to lean, the general way you can really kit out your guns for specific uses, etc) all lend themselves splendidly to tactical gameplay. but then the stupid spawning mechanics undercut all of that and lead to frankly a mess of a game. a fun mess, but a mess all the same

[frosty barn]

Just give recons access to smgs

It'll be fiiiine

[snow flume]

honestly, i think them having access to the val and scorp evo wouldnt be too game breaking. i would love to do more than just snipe with the recon class... you know, actual recon stuff, but it frankly is a sniper class more than a general recon class

[echo lichen]

what about giving assault the scorpion, seeing as they already got the val, no reason to not have it on there

[snow flume]

actually i recently heard oki's reason for that

"fuck you"

which is pretty much consistent with a lot of the random-ass, "no one asked for this" changes he makes

did he even consult anyone before arbitrarily making sniper muzzle flash brighter? i never once saw anyone say the game needed that lol

[echo lichen]

idk makes sense... somewhere? but the missing scorpion's just weird

[trim turtle]

Im not opposed to muzzle flash but as i said in the sniper thread at the time...

"What is the point of this? What does this actually solve or is intended to acomplish?"

[random folio]

Did he actually say that straight up?

[snow flume]

nono. i was being satirical. its just the general vibe i get from way more of his update posts than i feel i should

for instance;
"----------- Scorpion -----------
Damage fall-off END reduced, from 200 to 140"

yep. a nerf. the scorpion definitely needed a nerf...

/s

[random folio]

Yeah the scorpion range nerf is really strange.

[snow flume]

like sure, that particular nerf more or less makes sense. but why nerf it before giving it some much needed buffs??

and like peanut said; the fuck does that even accomplish?

[random folio]

It's basically already unusable at distance because 2.7 vert + 1200 rpm will have you aiming at the moon.

[snow flume]

no-one is mowing people down at 140m. and if they are, and they are doing it legit. FUCKING LET THEM. THATS JUST IMPRESSIVE, NOT BROKEN

[random folio]

I don't think it needs buffing, maybe some more attachment options.

[snow flume]

well. that would be a buff

but its vert recoil is too much regardless

its an extremely similar-performing gun by all other regards to the vector. but does being 4-shot instead of the 5-shot vector really warrant being almost unusable??

hold on

ump getting buffed to 35 damage???

what the fuck

at this point, im convinced

oki has some sort of deep-set hatred for the MG36

the only reason he added it to the game is so he could then make it the most pointless gun in the game

groza, ak5c, and now the fucking ump do similar damage without the batshit crazy recoil the MG36 has

[random folio]

Support in general is the neglected middle child.

[snow flume]

its not neglected

its been left at the state fair

they just forgot about it

neglect is recon

DMRs got some love, but thats only half the recon class

support aint got shit in the way of love at all since release

meanwhile SMG CHANGE HERE SMG CHANGE THERE

[frosty barn]

Smg did need it

[snow flume]

yes, but its only smgs that have been changed, and its taken, what, 2 months to get a single fucking class nerfed?

at the detriment of any attention to basically every other type of gun

gameplay has stagnated hard, and where it is right now is not a good place for it to stagnate

it wouldnt be so bad for gameplay to stagnate a bit if the balance wasnt so messy

[frosty barn]

The gameplay is in a good place imo

All he's doing is gradual changes, then observing how they affect the game. Honestly it's a healthier method than quick untested changes or large chunks of changes at once that are equally untested or take forever

It's a really good way to get all the balance worked out in these foundational stages of the game before adding assloads of content

I do agree it'd be nice if some changes happened before others, but frankly it was strange that only two smgs had the proper engagement distances. Now they're all in line with one another. Now we've got guns that are real strong at range (dmr), guns that are all rounders (ARs), and guns that are fantastic up close (smgs)

Idk wtf carbines and pdws are supposed to be, but maybe they can be more wacky and unique? Idk.

To get this back on the topic of spawning, I think it'd be cool if squad leader could help out more with spawning people in. Like maybe if you die near the SL you can respawn a little quicker? Only for your SL of course

[snow flume]

this was my suggestion for making it impossible to cheese the squad-spawning without removing the way it genuinely does positively affect gameplay pace when its not being abused

[trim turtle]

We got a bit. The lmg buffs are widely regarded as great. The niche they fill is kinda meh but they do at least fill said niche incredibly strongly.

Extremely accurate fully automatic even up to 100m-200m fire feels realy goddamn fun and good even though you still get (theoretically) outperformed by pretty much every other weapon under those ranges.

[snow flume]

well, it was one gun of the four

and the highest level-req gun BY FAR of the four

i havent even gotten back up to the ultimax after prestiging T_T

i have yet to even use the changes hah

[trim turtle]

Yea, but pretty much every sup player considers the ultimax as what lmgs should be.

So we have a baseline now to adjust other weapons ti

[snow flume]

yep

[frosty barn]

There's an lmg feedback area bois

[snow flume]

a wild MG36 drum mag appeared

[snow flume]

this is lmg feedback what you mean

[frosty barn]

True true. Carry on

[trim turtle]

Really, the only thing that is holding a lot of the balance hostage right now is a combination of squad points distribution and spawning.

Frontline actually feels great except for maps letting snipers go wild. more care needs to be taken... its too common that incredible vantage points are safe deep behind enemy territory. Its not really an issue in other modes because you can go and sneak up and take out the snipers but you cant in frontline

Spawning still needs work. Swuad spawning is less of an issue but still one in frontline and walking back from points fucking suuuuuuuucks

[frosty barn]

Squad points NEED a rework or upgrade. You should get squad points for healing your squad members, resupplying them. For having them spawn on the beacon

[trim turtle]

Imo, ctf is one of the worst balanced modes due to the lack of squad points. Some maps really feel like you need to be able to build some cover and ctf doesnt allow it