Gunplay - Feedback

[midnight tinsel]

And that's 3.0 with a first shot kick multiplier too

[uncut kayak]

You’ve got a good point. I’m admittedly still thinking about a conversation I had earlier where people were complaining about the ttk being too fast.

[midnight tinsel]

You can either hit the recoil with a bat, which doesn't click in my mind for a long range gun, or you hit the fire rate, which effectively lowers optimal ttk

Aug is balanced around that and does it well

It'll still be great at range, but it won't evaporate you, won't be amazing in cqc but arguably still good, and will still be generously easy for players looking for a middleground between snipers and ARs

Esp when MK20 and SVD have carved out a decent niche at a lower ttk

[mortal coral]

Better idea fuck the m110 remove its 2 tap

[inner pine]

you could just remove it at that point

[mortal coral]

[uncut kayak]

I do think that if the m110 proves to be more of a problem in the long run then reducing fire rate is probably the way to go.

[midnight tinsel]

It's been called out pretty consistently but yea, give it a week to make sure that point is hammered home to Oki

[uncut kayak]

Granted I haven’t been playing the last week or so I have no idea how it’s being used right now, I’ve only hopped on the game briefly to see how the gun feels after the input buffer changes and such.

[dapper robin]

Or just reduce the fire rate???

The fact that gun is still a spam cannon is the main issue

[mortal coral]

[summer path]

DMRs now feel amazing and responsive, they are perfectly balanced between medium/long range whilst not being an absolute cucumber up close, it's v hard to win a 1v1 CQC and that's perfect

LMGs likewise now feel really fun, they definitely each have their niche and effective scenarios, whilst still being usable outside of those.

[cobalt warren]

this is what i had hoped when i suggested this thread

dmrs being good and feel good to use

[sly marsh]

People will always complain about a gun when they die to it once m110 nerfed cuz of crybabies they will cry about mp7

[haughty ember]

Idk, I’m not sold a 2 hit kill weapon designed for mid-long range play being effective within 50 meters. That seems a lot more egregious than smgs being good out to 80 but the crybabies got that fixed didn’t that

[uncut kayak]

Effective within 50 meters? Sure. Better than an AR within 50 meters? Almost never.

[haughty ember]

It’s a weird take my friend, smg bad for overlap with ars, dmr good while overlapping ar and smg???

[midnight tinsel]

.200 and low recoil means it's def possible

hell I just shotgun with it

Run it hipfire and outgun most ARs

(up close)

[uncut kayak]

Can you beat an AR? Yes. Do you have the advantage? No. The AR is still better.

[haughty ember]

Weird how that was the argument for smgs encroaching into mid range that ars were actually better and it still got nerfed

[summer path]

On aggregate, the AR will beat the m110

[haughty ember]

Isn’t the m110s ttk faster than most ar’s?

I though the average ar was closer to .257

[summer path]

Oh boy, this discussion again

[uncut kayak]

Not in any meaningful way

[midnight tinsel]

Alr said this before, this whole meaningful thing is invalid after input buffering and recoil being 3/4 the original

[summer path]

I'm not going to go into detail but ttk assumes you hit shots

[haughty ember]

Okay well don’t assume skill issue

We’re all pro gamers here

[summer path]

I would rather have an AR over a m110 for engagements under 50m any day

[midnight tinsel]

By this logic, the FAL is mid because it has insane recoil

[summer path]

Especially <10m

[uncut kayak]

Ttk is not the whole story. The m110 has a much lower fire rate, so if you miss any shots at all you’re at an immense disadvantage. It also handles much slower, so you’re not going to be able to get the gun up to shoot as fast. The magazine capacity is lower, the reload is slower. ARs outperform it in every way at that kind of range. Just because you CAN kill an AR with it doesn’t mean you will, that it’s easy, or it’s stronger than it should be.

[haughty ember]

Okay well don’t miss the giant block target. And suddenly the weapon is on par with some of the fastest killing weapons in the game, with what, double the effective range?

[midnight tinsel]

Again, the question is why does it need that kind of optimal ttk

[summer path]

Here's the question then: Why isn't everyone using m110's over ARs?

[uncut kayak]

If you “just don’t miss 4head” then actually sniper rifles are crazy op and the best weapons in the game. No ttk at all, instant dead. Even more effective range than dmrs, they can even one-shot to the body at long enough range. Overpowered, right?

[haughty ember]

Because medic doesn’t have them

[midnight tinsel]

Better question, why is everyone using it over SVD/mk20/EBR

[summer path]

[haughty ember]

They are incredibly annoying. Hence why snipers have some of the worst handling stats in the game and are forced to play hundreds of meters out

[midnight tinsel]

Is it because mk20 is underpowered?

[uncut kayak]

Try picking up the L96 at some point

[haughty ember]

Meanwhile you’re arguing in favor of dmrs reaching not just into sniper range but also into smg range

[sly marsh]

Bob said it because if u miss any shots ur at a massive disadvantage- therefore 2 shots u r more likely to hit than 3 in a row

[summer path]

Mk20 is perfect right where it's at

[haughty ember]

Not even the fucking vector was that broken

[uncut kayak]

What? Nobody has said anything in favor of that.

[sly marsh]

Meanwhile m110 4s reload 💀

[summer path]

Did an m110 make fun of you?

[haughty ember]

6s vector reload with extended mag

[summer path]

I don't understand the hate

[sly marsh]

Extended mag tho

M110 extended mag is like 5.something

[summer path]

Doesn't it just give 4 extra bullets and also heavily affects aim time?

[haughty ember]

Damn is this what arguing about the vector was like vs the morons who thought it was totally balanced?

[uncut kayak]

M110 was the name of this guy’s high school bully

[midnight tinsel]

But do we think it's underpowered though?

[summer path]

DMRs, as they currently stand, feel quite nicely balanced

[sly marsh]

No but its not op either

[midnight tinsel]

Exactly

M110 stands out more than the other dmrs, just like before

[summer path]

They excel in one specific scenario, and are usable in most others

[uncut kayak]

No. The M110 is in a good spot right now. It’s strong and feels good to use without being op. Much like the groza and FAL.

[summer path]

Disagree, after using both heavily, I think the mk20 is the better gun

But that's just personal pref

[haughty ember]

Groza and FAL are both overtuned. Definitely wouldn’t compare to those

[summer path]

I'm very surprised groza dodged a nerf this patch

[midnight tinsel]

Arguably m110 should've probably gotten no buffs aside from the + damage , and on top of that gotten the downsides of long barrel applied to compensate

[uncut kayak]

Definitely not as strong as those but the point is a gun is allowed to be strong.

[midnight tinsel]

Since it was the one DMR that stood out before

[summer path]

What other buffs did m110 get? The recoil increased massively along with far less ammo and higher reload time

[sly marsh]

Only useable dmr

[uncut kayak]

I also don’t really use the FAL or groza too much so idk what to think about them besides what I’ve heard.

[summer path]

Fal just feels like a worse DMR now

[midnight tinsel]

If it was usable then it was fine where it was

[summer path]

Why fal when you can mk20

[haughty ember]

Groza is a literal laser after the first shot, FAL has smg move speed with a 3 hit kill and it’s recoil is only a problem if you full auto it (meaning you can tap fire it at range nbd)

[sly marsh]

Nah fal shreds close range

[midnight tinsel]

For the .200 ttk

[sly marsh]

it went from like c to a teir with the buffs

A teir is fine

[uncut kayak]

Alright then so definitely not on the same level as those two lol but it’s definitely very good.

[midnight tinsel]

A tier is where I'd place mk27 and svd for midrange players

[sly marsh]

Fal only crazy move speed with short mag ngl its average otherwise

[granite pivot]

huh?

[midnight tinsel]

EBR is still a B tier

And m110 went from a tier to s tier

[summer path]

Unsure why FAL has move speed bonus

Really tickles the pickle

[granite pivot]

bunch of attachments are fucked 🤷

[sly marsh]

If m110 was a no one would’ve been calling for a buff lmao

[midnight tinsel]

Oki balancing is like cleaning graffiti

There's a lot

And stands out if you don't get it all

[summer path]

I can't fault too much, the pistol rebalance was good and DMRs feel satisfying but not overpowerd

[sly marsh]

Fr this is the most balanced game i have played for a long time

[summer path]

SMGs no longer doing damage past 150m is good, but should drop by another 50m on average

I'm still getting eviscerated by MP5s at medium range, just straight up deleted

[midnight tinsel]

They were calling for buffs for dmrs

[midnight tinsel]

Yeah but we're like a month in of balancing, and there's still some sore thumbs like HK

[sly marsh]

Idk mabye another 10-20 if we eviscerate smgs we will lose 50% of players

[midnight tinsel]

Old balancing was fucked, now it's you missed a spot every now and then

[sly marsh]

Yes but if it was so good before people wouldnt ask for a buff lmao

[midnight tinsel]

And m110 was a spot missed, simple as

[summer path]

What was missed about it?

[midnight tinsel]

Input buffering being a thing that let people hit max fire rate easier

Same as pistols

[summer path]

As in, that's bad?

[midnight tinsel]

Although they don't stand out as much

Input buffering? No, but how common that optimal Ttk is is notable

[summer path]

Have you used it, have you seen the recoil it has? Accurate fire at max fire rate isn't really viable

It kicks hard

[tight pecan]

it is if you cheat

[sly marsh]

Yes but cheating isnt taken into account while balancing

[uncut kayak]

No no you don’t understand, it’s a skill issue if you can’t land two accurate shots immediately after seeing a guy with the M110 but if I die to it it’s not a skill issue and it needs to be nerfed.

[midnight tinsel]

Yeah dude it's basically no recoil

[summer path]

Ok

[midnight tinsel]

I've been getting hipfire kills for days

[uncut kayak]

Good for you

[midnight tinsel]

And at range the 2 tap is miles easier than old

Bc the recoil went from 3*1.5 to 1.2(?)*1.5

[summer path]

I'm not aiming
It has no recoil

Ok I can see your point but that's not a problem with the gun

That's just how BBR works for hipfire

[tight pecan]

you sure? because the people asking to hypertap a gun with 45 degree recoil "are just that good"? lol

[sly marsh]

tapping 300rpm is pretty easy bro i cant lie

[summer path]

Skill issue: just learn to dodge bullets :o)

[midnight tinsel]

Let me put it a different way

For a hyperspecialized gun it is really flexible

To the point where it overshadowed the alternate dmrs

[summer path]

As your personal opinion

[midnight tinsel]

Maybe, but in a week I doubt I'll be the only one calling it out

[tight pecan]

a month ago stepping back a gun to open up niche's for other guns was the worst idea ever

[midnight tinsel]

The last gun to step on so many toes of archetypes was vector

M110 is not even close to it

But it's still stepping on toes

[haughty ember]

I think the m110 is covering more than it should. Definitely not old vector levels but it’s weird to spot an obviously overtuned weapon and people hand wave it away. I’m amazed the p90 got hit and the groza hasn’t but I’d imagine it’s more to do with bads dying more to p90 flanks than getting deleted by a groza

[mortal coral]

Something something groza players can't shoot back half the time because of reload

[ancient meteor]

wow. imagine if that applied to the majority of guns

[nocturne delta]

m200 damage nerf when

[ancient meteor]

i think it needs a small (100-150) velocity nerf and a large bolt speed nerf rather than a damage nerf

(+ a decent movement speed nerf)

[lunar root]

It already does fairly poorly in bolt speed and movement speed

[ancient meteor]

not in my experience. tho i think thats due, in part, to the game not treating the post-shot delay before bolting as part of the "bolt speed". As per the stats, SSG69 should fire faster than the M200 and MSR. but it doesnt, since it has a dreadfully long delay before bolting after taking a shot\

and as far as movement speed goes, its already not exactly SSG or L96 fast, but being as high-damage as it is, i think it could stand to have its movement speed (and probably reload speed as well) swapped around with the MSR and see how that feels to us players

[summer path]

A bolt speed nerf would be nice, but I wouldn't say I get killed by it more than other snipers

Still calling for an anti-material rifle to be added please! Inaccurate but eats lightly armored vehicles and can punch through destructible walls

NTW-20 please

20mm rounds, basically a pickaxe at range but can kill people behind walls, something a bit honk honk like 60 accuracy and 500 bullet speed, but with an explosive projectile for a little aoe

Destructible terrain begs for something like this

[granite pivot]

yeah sounds like a fun gameplay experience

[sly marsh]

Rpg tho

[tight pecan]

Ive thought this for a while, should be what the APC has
non explosive though, just punches out individual blocks like the pickaxe

I think it would be way more fun for a wall to disentegrate around you than just get blown up

[summer path]

give it a tiny explosive radius, and would probably need to be higher damage than APC just because bolt action

maybe 1-shot on direct hit to someone with absolutely no armor

[tight pecan]

oh I was thinking something like a HMG that fires a few rounds a second, like 3-5 tops

it is like a 20+mm autocannon

[summer path]

as a man portable 20mm rifle? lol

this isnt 40k

[tight pecan]

i meant on the apc

also recoiless rifles are a thing

[summer path]

not multi shot tho

I just want a big, slow inaccurate knock-knock gun thats cumbersome and only truly effectve in niche scenarios

because its funny

[uncut kayak]

I’d love to have the xm109. 25x59mm cartridge. Deals big fucking damage but the velocity is comparable to a pistol. I wanna lob shots in a huge fucking arc from 1000 meters

[summer path]

at like 60 accuracy so it's a hail-mary unless its a jeep/apc/tank

[uncut kayak]

I’ve played through sniper elite 5 a couple times now and my favorite weapon is the delisle carbine by far because it’s so fun to hold like 100 meters over some guys head and watch the shot slooooooowly arc in

[ancient meteor]

my suggestion was decrease M200 handling and speed-related stats as well as small velocity nerf, but in turn give it a hefty increase to L-armour damage and move it to a different category; anti-material rifles.
Then add Hecate, which would have probably L96 velocity and not quite as much L-armour damage as the m200 (but still significantly more than any of the sniper rifles) but in return for a sizeable boost to H-armour damage, enough to do a measly +1 to APCs and tanks but therefore make a blackhawk pilot really notice you shooting them.
NTW-20 as the last of these rifles, would do the same L-armour damage as hecate, but way more H-armour damage and probably only 1000 velocity. enough h-armour damage that a tank can only ignore so many shots from it before having to move and/or repair
naturally, these would all have somewhat less total ammo reserves owing to the general bulk they would have

i feel these would be a viable way to keep conquest from being so samey with its vehicle play, and also give recon a bit more utility, as well as allowing for more dynamic teamplay between engis and recons, and probably also support to that end; three relatively slow classes that specialise in long-range engagements that can work and move together as a unit

i also think that, since they would not be infantry-oriented rifles, it would be fine to have them all do more or less the same infantry damage as the m200. might not make much sense logically, but thats how balancing is sometimes, and m200 already does a lot of infantry damage so using that as the reference point for a category of rifles that fire very slowly is hardly anything to complain about anyway

[granite pivot]

yeah, that's what vehicles really needed, another indirect nerf

[ancient meteor]

i think C4 is the root issue there, not anything specific to vehicles

[uncut kayak]

The M200 isn’t an anti-materiel rifle, though. That’s not what the thing is.

C4 is a huge issue for vehicles

I think c4 should do way way less damage to armored vehicles. Let it blow up humvees and quads or whatever but it shouldn’t work like it does against tanks and APCs

[ancient meteor]

also a big ol nerf to throwing rate. or just make it direct-placeable only, as imo being able to throw it directly treads on what is supposed to be the engi-specific anti vehicle grenade

also, ive always heard and understood the M200 to be a light anti-material rifle. at the very least, its in a whole other ballpark from the other sniper rifles, which shoot more conventional rounds

[uncut kayak]

Problem is it does everything too well. Destroys buildings, kills infantry easily, destroys vehicles easily.

[ancient meteor]

kills infantry easily to little risk for the user, which is the dumbest shit

[uncut kayak]

As for the M200, it is absolutely a sniper rifle primarily. It’s meant for anti-personnel use, just at very long range.
The cartridge, while it is significantly powerful than more traditional sniper rifle cartridges like .300 win mag or .338 lapua, .408 cheytac isn’t too radically different in its use case.

[blazing pond]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1138742385589887136/1152595157363990679/theis.png

This might help de-obfuscate how the aiming and recoil actually works, but the most significant change is that it'll help you learn how to hipfire imo. Positive/immediate feedback is a strong direct link to learning. The inital aim point is still obfuscated, and if you miss you don't get the feedback, so laser sight is still somewhat useful.

---

Burst fire mode needs to change some stats (accuracy/recoil) to be more than a meme, but it's ok if it remains a meme too.

[inner pine]

i'm pretty sure it's a meme irl

[blazing pond]

Why tf is it irl tho

[inner pine]

in real life

[blazing pond]

Yeah I know, but why do they even put it on guns irl if it's a meme (besides like AN-94 recoil delay mechanic sorta thing)

[ancient meteor]

on actual guns where your trigger finger is part of the recoil-damping system along with the rest of your body, its just easier to pull the trigger and not have to worry about shooting too many or too few rounds on a gun with 700, 750rpm or so when in the heat of battle and full of adrenaline, but a mouse doesnt have recoil so thats a non-issue in video games. You also dont stare at a magazine IRL and get a magical numerical indicator of the number of rounds left in the mag, and 3-round bursts with 30-rnd mags is easy to keep track of.

(additionally, burst fire is a mix of semi and full auto, and semi-auto is the more often-used firemode in real warfare, so maybe burst is a convenient hybrid betweem semi and full-auto?)

[inner pine]

idk from what i heard you got the downsides of f/a, being inaccurate
and the downsides of a burst, being limited to a few bullets and then having to reingage the trigger

[ancient meteor]

nah. you dont really shoot full auto to hit every single shot irl. its used almost purely for suppression, and also of course in inside-building engagements. burst would simply be a more controllable alternative

[uncut kayak]

It’s not a complete meme. Burst fire as a concept was developed for a couple of reasons which really made sense at the time.

During the first and second world wars the benefits of small rapid firing weapons like submachine guns and automatic rifles became very apparent. The long and short of it is that less time between shots means better suppression, more damage, and sometimes more likelihood of hitting the target.

Everyone doing small arms development post world war 2 made a shift for military rifles to go from “full power” cartridges like 30-06 to “intermediate power” cartridges like 7.62x39 and eventually 5.56x45. Intermediate cartridges had a lot of benefits including lower weight per cartridge and a lower recoil impulse per shot. That lower recoil impulse made weapons chambered for intermediate cartridges much more controllable in full auto. And everyone wanted a gun that could do full auto because everyone wanted to increase the probability that their soldiers would hit the target at least once when shooting at it.

Burst fire was developed directly for and from those assault rifle concepts to address some perceived concerns. One concern was that soldiers firing their weapons in full auto all the time would waste a lot of ammunition. Another was that while more bullets technically increase your likelihood of hitting the target, it’s harder to accurately place fully automatic fire on a target than it is a single shot. It was decided that a controlled burst with a definite number of shots at a high rate of fire provided many of the benefits of full auto fire without all of the drawbacks.

There were a ton of small arms development projects throughout the 20th century which hoped to increase the probability of a soldier hitting their target (SALVO, SPIW, ACR, etc.) These all worked by a number of different means, though one of the things most of them had in common was the option of a burst fired at a very rapid rate. Some of the later developments of these concepts are much more well known, like the G11 and the AN94. Both of those guns were interesting because they had designs which really focused around optimizing the burst fire mode. The first optimization was to fire all shots in the burst at an extremely high rate, with the an94 firing 2 shots at 1800 rpm and the G11 firing 3 shots at 2100 rpm. Second, both weapons had reciprocating actions which moved backward within the gun itself with the recoil of each shot. These two factors combined meant that when the burst was fired, the shooter did not feel the full recoil impulse until all shots in the burst had been fired. This meant dispersion was much lower and the burst was overall more accurate and effective. Probably unsurprisingly, though, these mechanisms were really rather complicated and not incredibly practical.

Burst fire modes were implemented into a whole bunch of standard military rifles, though, including the m16, the famas, and others. However, burst fire fell out of style with both changes in war fighting doctrine and other changes to small arms technology, including the large scale adoption of optical gunsights for military personnel

Oops I mean haha stupid France put a three round burst mode on a gun with a magazine that isn’t divisible by three haha

[inner pine]

jk thx for that info (;

[summer path]

Damn son I ain't reading that, add a tl;dr please

[uncut kayak]

Three bullets real fast easier than all bullets real fast but better than only one bullet, until we decided that it wasn’t.

[summer path]

GRUG THANK

[lunar root]

it may make hipfiring entirely meta in CQC

if it's anything like tabg aim it may be easier to hit while hip firing than ADS

it's already pretty good despite the current hit markers being super unintuitive

[ornate schooner]

switching weapons while ADS (toggle) doesnt work in 99% of the scenarios.
switching from grappling hook to any weapon after use, youll still be in ADS (very annoying)

i might say that ADS makes you unable to switch weapons.
maybe you are in a gun fight and you wanna be in ADS and switch to a pistol

[swift frigate]

It's certainly easy to click once and then focus on controlling the recoil immediately after, which will come in a consistent pattern that you can practice for. People are just probably to lazy to bother with this.

[uncut kayak]

Sure lol but I’m talking about irl

[blazing pond]

idk man just release your finger after a couple shots, it's not that hard

[uncut kayak]

Not that simple lol

[dapper shard]

Yea, it's a good bit easier to track with hip fire now. Use a laser for the first hit, pop 'em once and suddenly you've got a crosshair. It's a little wacky for sure atm, but it does look neat

[dapper shard]

Yo

hipfire now is actually insane

[blazing pond]

They're learning

[mortal coral]

Always has been

[lunar root]

I will now attempt to apply tabg fighting to battlebit and if it actually works it will be very nice

[inner pine]

overall the sounds feel better, but now you can't hear someone behind you shooting at you, at like 3m... wtf

[mortal coral]

sounds are actually pain this update

[dapper shard]

it does lmao

[distant tapir]

Some people might also disagree but I'd trade a lot of camera recoil for some rotational recoil too, not only does it feel and look way cooler, as well as being more interesting to control when the red dot point physically moves up along the gun

It being just muzzle climb is both hell to control a lot of the time, and really underwhelming feedback wise

[dapper shard]

Is there a reason none of the automatic guns do player armor damage? Seems like a missed opprotunity for balance imo

[inner pine]

it'll come...

eventually

[blazing pond]

Oh, this is an interesting observation. The slight rotating of the camera or gun model from other FPS games was neat, could be added to flesh out the gunplay here.

[distant tapir]

It feels like a good way to add a more dynamic "first shot multiplier" like system, since rotational recoil tends to eventually bottom out and correct itself

Mixing both the camera and rotational keeps the benefits of rewarding recoil control too

So from what I notice in games a mix is generally best

[blazing pond]

---

Also I did my fucking research and there is no 'recoil recovery' in this game like I assumed their was. There's only you correcting the recoil, no automatic pull whatsoever to a reset position. That does allow the lower rof weapons to be an inherent benefit to recoil control, with adjustment rate and time improved so walking away less from center before correction is issued.

---

Also does CoF/bloom/bullet spread exist in this game or not? I've heard yet again someone say it does despite seeing so many people say it doesn't.

[dapper shard]

It doesn't

There might be some bullet inaccuracy, like bullet deviation. But it defo doesn't feel like there's any spread

Could be wrong tho

[blazing pond]

Bullet deviation is just another phrase for the same exact effect tho? LOL, not sure how that'd be different mechanically

[inner pine]

there is bullet spread/cof/bloom
it just only works on hipfire
or well lemme explain like this
you have your acc stat, that determines how accurate your gun is in hipfire/non ads
and then you have you acc stat for a weapon class which all guns in one class share while ads

[distant tapir]

To be honest the way point fire works in bbr is pretty neat, I like it

[blazing pond]

Huh? Damn it, I want some evidence. I thought there was no CoF in hipfire either though.

[inner pine]

yeah but the acc should either be what is on the loadout screen or 2 seperate acc values

[inner pine]

uhm i have none :/
oxygen said that, yk the guy with the ttk charts 'n shit

[blazing pond]

Yeah but I thought the acc stat was just a straight up lie or other hidden effect.
Good to know the source of the claim though, he seems at least moderately trustworthy

[inner pine]

but ig try shooting with a dmr in ads and not

it was so whack that i didn't believe him at first Dx

[summer path]

IDK what you've done with the kitreg in this patch Oki but its awful

hitreg*

[dapper shard]

Feels fine to me

Last patch was a lot worse for me

[blazing pond]

After extensive testing in the firing range with the lowest possible accuracy build I could manage, I feel certain saying that ADS Cone of Fire, or ADS 'bullet deviation' at least in single/first shot, does not exist in any way. The bullets always go exactly where the optics of the gun point for the first shot while ADS. It's exceptionally hard to test full auto "bloom" of the theoretical Cone of Fire, due to recoil and my low-ish FPS LOL, and my lack of will to download a program that allows me to advance frame by frame.

I'm willing to take Vek's tests from #1138742385589887136 at face value, though, and he said you can tell from the tracer that bullets when full auto don't come out exactly where the gun optic was pointing when the bullet came out, but given that they always appeared 'closer to the center of the screen,' it's more likely this is a result of a difference between "visual recoil" and "actual recoil," pointing to the two being separate mechanics.

[blazing pond]

I've been in dat firing range, and actually, the rotation effect for camera and I think model happens when hip firing full auto. Pretty neat.

[distant tapir]

I love that effect, i feel like both making the projectiles still come from the muzzle, and adding such effects for when ADSing, would help make firefights more interesting and discourage usage of super small murder holes since you have to actually have your barrel out

The guns already fire from the muzzle when hip-firing too, so it's a system that does exist already

Also, this does reduce any need for actual muzzle spread, considering having deviations in aim when firing would account for that as well, while still letting the player correct for them if they see where the gun is tilted

I'm not sure we need that last part though

[inner pine]

pls make the bullets come out the barrel thx

[swift frigate]

Does that not happen already? I've had situations when firing from behind cover where my sight is on the target but the bullets seem to hit the wall in front of me.

[distant tapir]

From what i can gather (and mostly from what i've been told by multiple people) you only have fire from the muzzle when hip-firing, but i could be wrong here

[blazing pond]

Yeah and from my testing it seeeems like the bullets come out of NOT the muzzle when ADS specifically. It's not quite that they come exactly out of the sight's target, but is when the first shot happens.
But when hipfiring it seems to come out the muzzle.

[distant tapir]

I'm trying to get some good examples of muzzle tilt and climb
Games where it's more pronounced have it especially visible in red dots and telescopic sights

Since as you shoot, the dot on the lens goes to the sides and up

It feels more involved to physically see your weapon tilting in front of you and compensating to that, than only fighting your camera too

[nocturne delta]

ok ump was overbuffed that damage is stupid

[nocturne widget]

indeed

[ancient meteor]

yes. its so fucking dumb. oki is goofy for thinking we needed another groza, and frankly the entire feedback panel needs to be dumped for not telling him thats an awful idea

[mighty vale]

I am not sure if it is just me or others feel it as well. I personally feel the TTD is much shorter than before, after this patch. It is like BBR much earlier in the playtest, when the damage and range of the weapons were quite high. The TTD at that time were almost instant. Then there was a huge poll about the TTK/TTD issue. The game were rebalanced after that by increasing the recoil on most weapons.

In several gameplay session today, I feel I got killed in one frame without any chances to react. I also feel that other players are less responsive to my shots to them. I am not sure if that is the result of the weapon buff or network issues. I cannot prove anything so I give this feedback. Ignore my saying if you don't feel the same.

[blazing pond]

No, it is because of network issues. It takes time for you to talk to the server and then the server to talk to the person you're shooting, and visa versa.
Times where you instantly die, it's likely that, on the other person's screen, they were shooting you for a little bit already.

It's just a permanent woe of any game with lag compensation. There's no real way around it iirc.

TTKs with lows around 200ms are fine imo. If you both come around a corner and get in a 1v1 you both have about that much time of leeway for your skillz to be appropriately compared, even with proper lag comp.

[pliant geode]

Why is everything suddenly so goddamn loud?? I can't hear my thoughts!

[mortal coral]

Is meant to be removed but at this point idfk

[mortal coral]

New audio

[pliant geode]

Everything seems to be so overlapped.

[mortal coral]

Yeah its pretty fuckin annoying to say the least

[swift frigate]

And if you get cornered then you're dead before you ever had a chance to react. Encourages the garbage run and gun gameplay we have.

[swift frigate]

And yeah, things feel particularly bad after today's update. Everything feels floaty and off somehow.

Okay I'm literally watching all my teammates rubberbanding around me. That's a first.

[wild canyon]

the game lost its proximity sounds basically lmao

everysound around 100m literally just in your head instead of directional + distance

wish they did a quick patch right now for the audio instead of waiting another week

[spark sapphire]

would be great to implement fire supression that makes screen bloomy and also increases spread for given weapon.

[exotic timber]

yes, also: https://discord.com/channels/303681520202285057/1120273018543951912

[mighty vale]

Yes I know there are delays in networking. What I basically want to ask is that, has anyone feel more one hit deaths than before. If yes, is this caused by the buff of weapons or is the network performance had got worse.

I surely did have some one hit kills before the patch, but not as often as right now.

[blazing pond]

It's the latter. Stuff ain't been buffed that much. Maybe ppl are just better now too.

[spark sapphire]

@deft storm i am talking about opponent suppression like battlefield does. if you fire to the enemy his screen becomes bloomy and he gets nerf by spread while under fire
am not about module "fire suppressor" that hides muzzle and makes shooting silently

[pliant geode]

I think they changed something for the audio again.

[swift frigate]

Yes, if you look into the thread linked below your message, people are largely opposed to that kind of feature

I personally don't mind, but I don't think it's worth pushing for due to the backlash it would cause and the fact that it would eat at the LMGs power budget

I'd much rather get deadlier weapons than weaker ones which just annoy the enemies

[exotic timber]

Some people say that they don't want too much RNG in the game, as they prefer "skill-based gameplay". But isn't recoil much like RNG, in that sufficiently high recoil is practically uncontrollable for a human?

It's deterministic, in that it's hard-coded to go in a certain pattern, but it's still uncontrollable in the sense that nobody can make all of their shots go exactly where they want.

So isn't high recoil just the same as random bloom?

[distant tapir]

Yea, a lot of the time it is

And as it stands a lot of recoil feels like it was made with 30m ranges and reflex sights in mind

Like even relatively controllable guns feel horrible to use the moment any medium range sight is put in

Recoil should be made with how the gun should perform at the range you want it to perform in mind, not at close range

Lest you end up with SMGs that can lay accurate deadly fire from farther away than LMGs and LSWs

If you need to balance a gun so it doesn't massacre at close range, increasing recoil is dumb and counterproductive

Look at the FAL, increasing its recoil isn't gonna fix it, it's just gonna push it deeper into its weird close range niche

The way to go about fixing it would be reload speed reduction, control and movespeed reduction

Hell it could even be more controllable given it had nerfs that mostly affect it short range

Recoil is just not a good way to balance guns, especially not if you're trying to nerf their close range use because you just end hurting them at the ranges they should be actually used at

[sly marsh]

Yes we need to change velocity/run speed/ reload more instead

[turbid plank]

Not a fan of the new TTK to be perfectly honest. Fights now last 0.2 seconds from what I played yesterday, but it takes 7-15 seconds to bandage, heal, reload, as medic, which always means and has meant you're dead if anyone else finds you in that time,

but the TTK means whoever sees first wins

talking about this in game just got me flacked on by the lobby claiming "skill issue" "put on glasses" so I cant really get any sort of consensus on that

but it just feels like luck now rules fights, not skill with the guns at hand

What do you guys think?

[mortal coral]

More skill than pre armor update at least

[midnight tinsel]

This is post armor update?

[mortal coral]

Exo armor doesn't have 250 hp so that's post enough for me

[swift frigate]

Any patch notes regarding TTK changes?

Everything feels super stompy and shit atm but I thought it was just netcode weirdness

[mortal coral]

Ttk hasnt really changed since ea started

[swift frigate]

Sure feels different now

So probably netcode stuff

I've literally gotten hit markers like 0.3s after an impact grenade landed

[midnight tinsel]

Hit reg got changed somehow

So now more shots land

Meaning faster ttk

[swift frigate]

Which sucks

[mortal coral]

More like less no regs since ea started

[lunar root]

Unlikely to make a difference in a great majority of fights

It does feel different though with the new hit markers and audio

[dapper robin]

Yeah I've noticed TTK feels a bit quicker due to netcode changes, I like the consistency but TTK does feel fast in some instances. Idk about sub 0.2 but it's def quicker and still reactable for most weapons.

I assume groza is a war crime now

[hearty goblet]

My opinions after about 50 hours over 5 months and plenty of balance patches: TTK is a tiny bit too low for everything. The SCAR-H, UMP-45 and SG550 have felt like some of the most fair and interesting guns from both the shooter and shot-at perspective, and it would be a good idea to consider them as benchmarks for how guns should be balanced

[inner pine]

yeah ump is now a god damned crutch like the groza and technically it was an m4 but as an smg, so there's your baseline

[hearty goblet]

Haven't used UMP for almost a month so I guess I'm out of date

[inner pine]

ah k, it's a groza now

[hearty goblet]

Sad

All three of those guns can kill fast but require some skill or getting used to to use properly, and they have weaknesses that reward working around them

That's why I like them

[haughty ember]

What’s the scar’s weakness? Besides requiring a higher level than the ak15

[mortal coral]

its not the ump

[haughty ember]

Lol

[hearty goblet]

The first shot kick

[haughty ember]

I’m not at my computer but I don’t remember it being that high

And isn’t it the most stable of the 3 battle rifles? (Ak15, scar, FAL)

[lunar root]

Yeah

Scar has an FSK of 1 so idk what they’re talking about

[inner pine]

mk14 ebattle rifle and g3

[haughty ember]

G3 is disgusting rn

[mortal coral]

me when the ak15 is a br and g3 is a dmr

thank you oki

[inner pine]

ak15 is an ar, there are no br in bbr

[mortal coral]

🗿

[inner pine]

real cursed

🗿

[mortal coral]

the smg sg550

[inner pine]

the carbine m4, g36CARBINE, ak5CARBINE and a couple of others probaly

[hearty goblet]

If I have garbage opinions it's because I'm garbage. I'm a super casual domination player

[mortal coral]

the scorp evo a1 carbine

cant forget that

[tight pecan]

the people that "want less rng in the game" are just complaining that they think they should have won XYZ encounter and want something to blame rather than themselves

[haughty ember]

There’s barely any rng left in the game. Not enough to consistently cause a loss

On the topic of recoil though, recoil isn’t predetermined, it is random which way your gun moves based on its recoil values

Not that it’s ever enough to actually matter

Even the high recoil weapons (read: high horizontal recoil weapons) have easy tricks to make the recoil work for you

[exotic timber]

I think muj posted the code from an earlier build showing that it is predetermined, but it doesn't matter

[haughty ember]

If it was predetermined it would be consistent but it definitely isn’t. You get different patterns on every spray

[tight pecan]

Its probably tied in with game clock or frame # or whatever, doing true random is usually needlessly expensive

[haughty ember]

Could be.

[tight pecan]

more or less the same thing "random" by hashing some easy nonsense to parse

[exotic timber]

#1133360306278645810 message

There's where muj posted the image showing the recoil is predetermined

[tight pecan]

man that seems like a pain in the ass to premap the entire magazines recoil like that

[distant tapir]

What is the point of making predetermined recoil so complex the only people that will ever get a hold of it have to actually study the recoil pattern files

This isn't good balancing, horizontal recoil is about as bad as just making the gun shoot inaccurately 90% of the time

Recoil doesn't need to be non-existant but right now the variation between laser guns and wrist breakers is kinda ridiculous

[tight pecan]

lol

[distant tapir]

For real tho
Imagine just cutting the current recoil in half for most the guns
And adding some amount of sway to them
It would be so much easier to account for and react to
Maybe you don't see the sway much up close in a UMP since it's a small gun, but it has more recoil, and the opposite for a Scar, you feel the sway more even up close, but the firing itself being more stable
You actually make guns work best at their range

[exotic timber]

Maybe oki is just Yandere dev in disguise

[tight pecan]

Imagine a game with less TTK than your average ping and wanting the guns to be more deadly across the board

You aren't going to get tarkov physics simulation/weapon sway, this is roblox with more steps

[distant tapir]

I mean, sway isn't really easy to account for, just less bullshit
Also we do have a armor thread, which I hope helps this issue

[distant tapir]

This game has ammo mags simulation, bullet drop, vehicle combat... the only thing that makes it kinda ish like roblox rn is the graphics, and you're very much taking what I said to an extreme, never said anything about tarkov level mechanics

[tight pecan]

ok

[distant tapir]

The best thing that can happen to the game right now is a armor function overhaul and a movement exploit fix

Also, I offer you phantom forces as an example
A roblox game that works fantastically with mostly rotational recoil instead of camera recoil and imo does recoil better than bbr as it stands

Sure, it has a good few broken guns, but overall they are much more understandable recoil wise

[ancient meteor]

ump did not need 35 damage. period

[granite pivot]

Agreed

Give it 36

[ancient meteor]

i hope your nose falls off

[mortal coral]

36.5

[ancient meteor]

:(

[pliant geode]

UMP45, dividing the community since 2009 👍

[inner pine]

ump and groza having fal ttk capabilities while having none of its inherent skill requirement due to the fals high recoil while also having not very note worthy downsides compared to the fal is just a joke balance wise

[spark sapphire]

game has NOT ENOUGH shooting difficult to play fair.

(comparation) Battlefield:

• ammo things is absolutely better in battlebit, there's no additions

• shooting without mouse2 is story about lucky (battlebit - not all weapons, almost all weapons designed as laserguns, so its not a problem, you even see the crosshair while moving, but i like the stuff you get from Tarkov - weapon fires directly there where it pointed, instead of Battlefield "weapon has a spread and you cant do anything with it)

• shooting with mouse2 requires time to preparation but removes spread (battlebit - you can "hack" weapon preparation using strafe key in same time with mouse2 exactly in last step of your running, weapon weight will be ignored - for me - its a bug, IRL weapon prepares faster after running, but the weapon "draws" a circle trying to get center position)

• if you get damage - your spread increases, gun shakes, the actor feels pain (battlebit - fully nofear mode after 10hrs of play, worst thing ever!)

• if you under fire - you get screen bloor, your spread increases a little, the actor feels fear, teammates nearby reduces the effect if selected "cover" bonus, you could select "suppresive fire" bonus to increase effectiveness of your fire, minigunners very like that stuff (battlebit - not implemented)

• gun weight changes movement speed by +/- 10%, knife faster than pistol, pistol faster than primary, also sprint is faster than run 2x, unlimited (battlebit - changes +/- 150%, what the fuck? if i use MP7 am moving 2x faster than user of AK ? Its story about sprint that should cost stamina instead of regular run, soldier should run all the time without pressing a key (!), could walk slowly while pressing other key to move silently, could crouch - same but lower actor position, and hold crouch-walk - to move absolutely silently and very slow, and could sprint with stamina loss and spread increses so much what amount of stamina you spend, REDESIGN requested)

• you have no stamina (battlebit - the same)

• no armor bonuses (battlebit - here has a plus, armor works better, but most weapons is laserguns so heavy armor just reduces your speed, one-two bullets its about 10ms of life, useless with laserguns)

• health, if you have small amount of - it adds you screen effects only, also autohealing (could be server-disabled) + healing semi-auto on nearest medpack (battlebit - every shot you get bleeding cause of hitpoints become less than 40%, you have to press one key, then, if you medic - press second key, then if you have wounded teammates - press third key, its a good mechanic but not in game where time-to-death less than 1 second! If other propositions (above) would be redesigned - it could changes, but now its a hell stuff. So, if you think about "redesign this point" - the bleeding should be lifesaver, so it starts when you have ZERO hitpoints and happened randomly (or, for example, if you is healed to 100% your life-saver will be reloaded) for you. So you would be killed, but game saves your life gives you possibility to heal yourself and gives you 0.25 seconds of god protection to hide, that way it could work fair)

[spark sapphire]

=====
Maybe UI suggestion, but to prevent "one enemy kill to the back all the squad and you dont even know it" requested to add pain/death cries specified for faction, i dont suggest concrete sounds or wavs but it could be different between sides to understand is died player is teammate

Bushes and small trees should make movement difficult (like water does) and also required specific sounds (like grass under trees does)

[spark sapphire]

Please, DO NOT force map end on Win condition is reached. Most of players plays for the game not for the win, it should be server configured. Tournament mode or smtg

[dapper shard]

Huh

I would like to see even more modern guns. Just some cool shit you don't see in a lot of games all the time

[lunar root]

They’re just weaker than the FAL though. Both have lower damage and UMP has lower headshot multiplier, and this does make a pretty big difference

Even if armour didn’t exist the difference is fairly significant

[inner pine]

idc if you can hit 3/3 bullets or even 4/4 bullets then the fal would still suck in comparision with its sometimes 1/3 bullets hit, it's all about relativity and having 2 guns do effectively do the same thing as another but with significantly better recoil and others positives comparatively, doesn't sensible to me
i mean people already complained about the groza, making the ump an arguably better version of it just seems like a very tone deaf thing to do
fix bipod and bring scorpion to assault.

[ancient meteor]

dont all the guns share the same HS multi?

except for snipers and now some pistols?

[lunar root]

SMGs have 1.2 rather than 1.5.

[ancient meteor]

feel like that 1.2 should extend to at least the P90 as well

it plays much more like an SMG than the groza and HB do

[granite pivot]

It's just classified as a PDW so it gets that sweet 1.5x HS mult lol

[haughty ember]

how far down does the p90 fall if it loses the hs multi? it's already pretty mid-tier isn't it?

[distant tapir]

The way the PDW and carbine classes work pisses me off so much
Like PDWs are literally a subdivision of SMGs irl, they are defined as SMGs but with rounds designed for armor piercing at close ranges
The fucking MP7 is a PDW, the Groza and the Honey Badger are nothing close to what a PDW is, they are both carbines, the Scorpion is less of a Carbine than the MP5 will ever be

It literally just feels like they used a random number generator to chose some of these guns' classes

[granite pivot]

The small arms and APC classifications are all over the place

well ig the APC ones are just wrong

[distant tapir]

"AS VAL, yes internally suppressed low velocity carbine for covert and silent opperations, packs a punch in a M4 sized package, carbine."
"Honey badger, internally suppressed low velocity carbine for covert and silent opperations, packs a punch in a M4 sized package, PDW"

i'm gonna pop an aneurism

[haughty ember]

lol

[granite pivot]

[distant tapir]

The MP7
The literal gun that created the PDW SMG subdivison
Is classified as an SMG

[haughty ember]

tbh i could care less about the classifications. i just want it to not take 20 years to scroll up and down

[granite pivot]

well the classifications do have balance implications

[distant tapir]

Honestly, here's what i'd do
SMGS:

• Add the scorpion there, it's a pistol caliber small gun like c'mon
  PDWs:
• MP7 and P90
• get rid of the dang headshot multiplier because they don't need it
• honestly at this point just make them SMGs, i mean this is a definition that 2 weapons in the whole-ass game fall into, that is ALSO a subcategory of SMGs
  CARBINES:
• Groza(nerf something both because of the headshot multiplier it'll get and cause it needs it duh)
• As Val
• Honey Badger
• M4(yeah it's a carbine)
• G36C (literally the carbine version of the G36)
• AK5C (you fucking guessed it)

I think that a category that has more merit to exist than PDW is Battle Rifle in this game

Since you can add:

• Scar H
• FN Fal
• G3
• MK14
• MAYYYBE The AK15 if you're going more by how it performs than how it is irl

Just like that, you can reduce the bloatedness of the horrifically large AR category, make the carbine category into it's own thing with more than 2 weirdly dissonant guns to it's name, get rid of the mess that current PDW classifications are, and overall make everything actually make any sort of logical sense

[mortal coral]

[inner pine]

but then assault will never get the scorpion
fix bipod.

[nocturne widget]

tbh assault should get SMGs as well

makes little sense that he doesn't

ah yes, the class that's supposed to assault and close the gap, doesn't have the weapons that excel at pushing in

[inner pine]

oki smg medic bias in full swing

[pliant geode]

The Groza has weird viewmodel

Is this new?

[spark sapphire]

---

finally understand (what a stupid brain) why so hard to use medium optics in BB 😄 if you compare reflex sight with acog, the dot you point your weapon returns back after the shoot. Instead, with medium scopes it does not, after every shoot your weapon pointed above and above. So you need ALWAYS care your mouse to yourself. Thats interesting difficult idea for hardcore / balance, but really makes useless any guns except snipers with medium scopes. If you want to balance it as an gameplay idea - weapon weight should regulate time of returning back...

[dense warren]

No settle on those scopes is only half of the problem, the other half is that the angular recoil on mid range scopes is also higher proportionally to the magnification. x1 optics make the guns much easier to control.

[inner pine]

aswell as the visual recoil shaking the crosshair around uncontrollably

[lunar root]

I’m fairly sure this game does not have any system that would mean your gun automatically returns to centre screen

And if it did it wouldn’t apply differently just because of a different optic

[lunar root]

Angular recoil should be identical.

This should be easy to verify

mm, just tested. Scopes do not affect it whatsoever

nor is there any kind of perceptible automatic returning to centre on any type of optic

[inner pine]

yeah but medium scopes suck due to the visual recoil, i don't think there's anything like automatic return like in eft

[lunar root]

yeah I believe that is the only factor

aside from perhaps reduced awareness when you're scoped in as well

up to about 100m a 4x doesn't seem to alter my hitrates compared with short range, so it isn't that bad. I usually use a slip sight just so I can actually see people properly

[blazing pond]

Correct. A lot of FPS in my experience have some slight settling mechanic. CoD had 'return to initial point of last shot' in the form of a stat for each gun called 'centerspeed' which also naturally counteracted recoil a wee bit, PlanetSide 2 had a timer stat for each gun that, if it passed without firing, would SNAP your gun all the way to it's initial firing point

This game has none

I think some sort of return to center mechanic would be necessary for, say, a console release.

Correct on med scopes, visual recoil, and SLIP being the best sight too LOL

[inner pine]

slip's only good for ranged f/a firing, a trix or acog are better for long range engagements

[distant tapir]

More rotational recoil and less camera recoil could help that, since it's the kind of recoil that naturally returns to center

And it's a shame we have so many modeled red dots and no sight deviation to see them at work too

Instead of jerking your camera up and around wildly, making some of that recoil the gun model visibly rotating would make it both easier on long range optics and just in general make it seem less anemic for how much it throws you off your aim

Like cut the cut recoil in half, and add the missing half as the gun moddel rotating instead of the camera

It's still recoil you have to account for, but it places more emphasys on seeing where your gun is pointed than where the center of your screen is

[inner pine]

yes please, also make boolet go where barrel is in ads
sometimes i want to run into an smg medic as a support because of how it fucks with night time visibility due to tracers

[upper jewel]

remove movespeed reductions

[pulsar cradle]

i think the way to balance the game is to remove movespeed reductions on guns, that would motivate AR usage. ARs are good but they suck because of the movement speed reduction compared to SMGs.

[blazing pond]

The hell are you on about? I see ARs so much, as much as SMGs tbh

[upper jewel]

not by any decent player

with slight exception

[blazing pond]

I think you're on something. Let me see the API weapon usage stats.

Sorted by skill bracket ofc

[upper jewel]

what do you consider decent

[blazing pond]

If we're using the word "decent," say top 50% LMFAO.
If you're talking about SKILLED GAMERS, top 10%

[upper jewel]

you realise the average player has sub 1kd

[blazing pond]

Hmm, that power curve do be hitting, true enough

I be killed by like 50:50 though, that's what I mean by "seeing" them as much as SMGs. Either your theoretical Skilled Gamers aren't killing me as much as the average person (relative to their power), or you're merely incorrect.

[haughty ember]

smg's definitely aren't the majority of my deaths. funny enough i'm pretty sure it's recon/claymore/ap mine and then lmgs (dirty supports just take too long to kill)

[lunar root]

SMGs move speed is literally like 90% of the reason they aren’t just bad guns at the moment

Removing that would make them actually awful weapons

[haughty ember]

imagine trying to run at someone with the vector rn trying to get within 10m for full damage and instead of running at 1.07 it's 1.0 or lower

[pulsar cradle]

literally no1 in the top 20 kill leaderboard uses ARs

top 100 maybe like 5

[haughty ember]

seems like the majority of players use ar's rn tbf. ak15/scar/fal is everywhere. dmr's are very common following the buffs. a lot of the turbo sweats are using the ump (which is imo more broken than the old vector)

[pulsar cradle]

people use bad guns but that still doesnt mean they are good. No good player uses ARs since of the movement speed reduction compared to SMGs

[haughty ember]

that's because good players want high kill games, if you want high kills you have to be able to run places. you can still drop 80+ in a game with ar's, but you're not gonna run 100+

not consistently anyway

[pulsar cradle]

a good player can drop 100+ with any gun tbh

[inner pine]

fuck yes, fuck that "gun" and the groza aswell, everyone already said the groza was bad and then the "balancing" team decides this is what we want

[haughty ember]

depends on map/enemies. i dropped 161 last night with the p90 on zalfi bay but the enemy team just... let me sit in their backline and farm them in 1vX's

[pulsar cradle]

how is ump more broken than old vector though?

[haughty ember]

with where i was positioned and how little running i actually did i could've done similarly with an ar

[haughty ember]

3 shot kill even less recoil same move speed?

[pulsar cradle]

ye while ump shoots 3 shots vector does 6?

xd

[inner pine]

fal ttk but no recoil + good velocity, movement speed and reload speed
even more fucked than the groza

[haughty ember]

vector needs all 6 to kill

and ump faster ttk

[pulsar cradle]

XD?

[haughty ember]

vector loses upfront to fal and did so even prenerf, ump is the fal but as an smg with no recoil

don't play dumb

it doesn't lead to very good discussions

[pulsar cradle]

Kriss Vector 0.200 0.250 0.250 0.300 0.350
UMP-45 0.185 0.277 0.277 0.369 0.369

those are the tts on no armor/light/normal/heavy/exo

vector beats ump on everything except no armor

but no armor is not a good way to check ttk since people use normal armor mostly

but ye faster ttk

[haughty ember]

and yet, since we're having this discussion guess what armor classes are most common? light with no head armor

[pulsar cradle]

most people dont even know you can change armor

[haughty ember]

how much you wanna bet that light chest armor is gone in a majority of gunfights?

actually even better, since we're still in legs meta and your arms do a wonderful job of covering the chest armor hitbox, you're hitting unarmored a lot more than you think

annnnddd the ump has 10 extra m of range before fall off hits. so if you actually fight at what, 15m+? the vector needs an additional bullet to kill and instantly loses the gunfight?

[pulsar cradle]

ump for sure feels the best but is not the best gun in the game.

and just talking ttk why are you bringing up distance

mp7 faster ttk than ump on range

so just use that

[inner pine]

it is buddy stop pretending it ain't a crutchy ass rat and no skill weapon

[pulsar cradle]

ump for sure feels the best but is not the best gun in the game.

[blazing pond]

TTK is not everything bro. Bro probably thinks the F2K is trash
UMP does feel the best tho true enough

[haughty ember]

because reality across almost 6k post-nerf vector kills has shown that the vast majority of fights take place where the damage dips below 20 so it's not worth comparing it's ideal ttk

[inner pine]

not best in the game but luckily no gun is

[pulsar cradle]

depends what ur comparing the f2000 to

in general that gun is mid at best

[inner pine]

it is the best, low recoil + movement + reload + damage
it is all there

[pulsar cradle]

the game has no recoil outside of evo, its slower movement than smgs, reload no clue, damage is low

[blazing pond]

oh yeah r word lol

[pulsar cradle]

this game legit has no recoil, if you have played a single game with an actual recoil system you would agree

this game is an arcade shooter there is no recoil

[blazing pond]

Name games with "actual recoil."

[pulsar cradle]

old rust, cs:go

[haughty ember]

predetermined recoil is real recoil?

[inner pine]

buddy, it has fast movement and saying the game doesn't have recoil is the stupidest claim ever fal, scar, ak15, all the dmrs, surprisingly the vector

[blazing pond]

I've played CS:GO and it doesn't have actual recoil, are you dumb? Easy ass predictable recoil, if you put in the practice
Ok, you've named 2 games, one of which I've played and disagree with you on.

[haughty ember]

lemme just hop in the range and work on my vector spray again to warm up to play battlebit casual

[inner pine]

go in the shooting range right this fucking instant and tell me a fal with hb, extended mag and no grip has "no recoil" go f your logic

[haughty ember]

tbf, the fal doesn't really have that bad of recoil if you lean

all the recoil is fuckin horizontal

[inner pine]

even the "laser" ars have recoil that fucks your aim up if you're not carefull

[haughty ember]

leaning makes it so free

[inner pine]

long barrel...

[haughty ember]

i'm aware, i could hop in range and screenshare to show you what i mean

[inner pine]

leaning making h-recoil a non issue is a joke honestly

[blazing pond]

I've played many CoD, BF, PlanetSide 2, CS:GO, a lot of smaller games I can't remember. This game has recoil. You want to know what game didn't have recoil? OG MW2, the ACR in that game had effectively, literally, zero recoil.

[haughty ember]

you wanna see it?

[inner pine]

i already know and it's stupid af xD

[haughty ember]

i'm just saying, it's really not that bad

[blazing pond]

Does lean negate horizontal or smth?

[inner pine]

ye, well not really but kinda yeah, turns it into semi-v-recoil

[haughty ember]

the recoil applies based on gun orientation, so if you lean the horitzontal applies more vertically than horizontally

[blazing pond]

Ahh, interesting. So pulling down (less) and to the opposite direction of your lean will be extra effective

[haughty ember]

ye, and with the fal most of the recoil is horizontal anyway so you only barely have to counteract it

[upper jewel]

highly intelligent conversation going on

[inner pine]

oh the clown claiming this game has "no recoil's gone"
also real guns don't have as much recoil as they are often portrayed in games, the ak74 would probaly be a 3sk with no recoil to speak of and the scorpion would be a meatgrinder of a laser

[haughty ember]

when do we get the real vector with negative recoil?

so you have to push up to keep it on target

[upper jewel]

this game is super easy for any other game recoil wise

[inner pine]

xD, well that's not really how that'd work, vector would jump between two points but do it consistently
O

O

[upper jewel]

if you think remotely that this games gunplay takes skill recoil wise, I want whatever you are smoking

[haughty ember]

what's a game with good gunplay that takes skill?

[upper jewel]

the average player has no idea that there are armour/helmet options

[inner pine]

ok go pick up a fal or scorpion and tell me "it takes no skill"

[upper jewel]

I have both, I dropped a 191 with scorpion no attachments

[pulsar cradle]

dont use such big numbers he has never seen those

[inner pine]

cool, so you know how much it kicks

[exotic timber]

people who think that recoil is easy have probably never played Support, and probably just run around killing people at point blank with smgs

[inner pine]

literally

[upper jewel]

yea the m249 that has better recoil and more ammo than an m4

good take

[inner pine]

buddy there's a thing called having fun and being a filthy casual

[upper jewel]

dont make an embarrasment of yourself

[inner pine]

wrong, the m4 has half the horizontal recoil

[pulsar cradle]

urmm wrong buddy m4 is 1.5 m249 is 1.1

gg

[upper jewel]

?

you were saying

theres no gun in this game that takes "skill"

skorpion doesnt even need to be pulled down because the effective range is 10m

[inner pine]

you can't make that shit up vertical recoil my ass the h-recoil is what's important, m4: 0.6 m249: 1.3

[haughty ember]

oof

[upper jewel]

fal is negated by close range fighting aswell

[haughty ember]

imagine coming in with all that confidence to be wrong

[inner pine]

yeah gl staying in 10m engagements

[pulsar cradle]

most supports you find are laying on the ground so just use bipod

[upper jewel]

then you shouldnt be using the skorpion if you cant be in 10m

thats a skill issue

[pulsar cradle]

i do agree i read it as vertical at the beginning mb mb but this game still has no recoil

[upper jewel]

?

[exotic timber]

hahaha you think bipod actually works

[haughty ember]

skorpion is controllable out to like 40m

[nocturne widget]

what the fuck are these bearbear morons smoking lmao

[haughty ember]

whatchu mean stay within 10?

[upper jewel]

I didnt say controllable, I said effective range

[haughty ember]

you can drop 190 but can't aim properly?

[inner pine]

buddy i can easily burst fire up to 50m no problem

[upper jewel]

anyone can burst a skorpion at 50m

you wont kill anything though

[haughty ember]

it loses 1.5 damage at 40m, you can 100% destroy out to 40 nbd

[upper jewel]

if you are using a skorpion at 50m you shouldnt even be remotely using that gun

[inner pine]

i do you moron xD

[upper jewel]

bro you have never seen a number above 100 that isnt your deaths, please calm down

[haughty ember]

if you can't make it work out to 50m when you have to then you're just experiencing a lack of ability

[upper jewel]

you got me

Im the least skillful player in here

[inner pine]

the arrogance

[upper jewel]

the truth has been revealed

[night garnet]

can you like send a video of you controlling a scorpion evo at the 50 m dummy please

i would love to see that

[pulsar cradle]

waiting

[haughty ember]

want me to screenshare?

i'm sitting here in range rn

[upper jewel]

not on a shooting range target

on a actual person

[inner pine]

"burst fire"

[upper jewel]

that shoots back

[haughty ember]

i don't have skorp unlocked because i prestiged

[upper jewel]

ah so you cant then

I see

[pulsar cradle]

schalljumper can show us

he uses evo always

[inner pine]

never said it's effective but it'll get the job done

[exotic timber]

The original challenge did say "at the 50m dummy"

[haughty ember]

it's okay though, you're clearly the superior gamer, aim was never my strong suit anyway so if i can do it on a dummy i'm CERTAIN you can do it in a game

[pulsar cradle]

why do that though when there are guns that are 10x better at that range

[blazing pond]

Y'all are funny.

[inner pine]

i mean it's my most used weapon at 1.625kills but that isn't really important as i use a bunch of other weapons aswell but whatever

[upper jewel]

I mean anyone can shoot a dummy that doesnt have actual movement and shoot back

its not impressive

[exotic timber]

The challenge is about controlling recoil

[night garnet]

I would be happy with a video of him consistantly even burst firing the 50m dummy in the head

[haughty ember]

keep moving that goal post G

bro i will screenshare with you rn

[inner pine]

[haughty ember]

i'm right here

[exotic timber]

You bears said that "lol recoil is easy to control", but then when asked to control recoil even on a dummy they change to "a moving, shooting target!"

[upper jewel]

I didnt ask him to shoot a dummy at all

[inner pine]

i said "burst fire and kill them" never said anything about hs, them shooting, them moving god damn clown xD

[upper jewel]

I simply stated that recoil is easy in this game

[inner pine]

which is 🧢

[upper jewel]

and if you are using skorpion at 50m you are out of its effective range

[haughty ember]

yeah it's easy if you only fight under 10m at which point just hipfire and move on

[inner pine]

most people will not be able to use a scorpion or fal

[dawn plaza]

"Recoil is easy." Do I detect smg sweats?

[pulsar cradle]

most ARs have no recoil

[inner pine]

i use it in its effective range but i said 50m is possible aswell

[inner pine]

as they should be, also fal, scar, ak5c, famas, ak15...

[haughty ember]

effective range is a suggestion

[exotic timber]

Remember this is the feedback channel

[dawn plaza]

Heck of a blanket statement

[blazing pond]

Brother is MOVING them goalposts.
You magically define "easy" with "anything that's being used outside of its "effective range" is automatically disqualified from being considered as to whether it's easy or hard to control their recoil.

Get a better argument, kid.

[upper jewel]

I dont believe I said those things 1 in 1

Its 2 seperate things to have easy recoil and whether a gun should be used within effective range

[inner pine]

also apart from all the being wrong shit what's your problem with "easy recoil"

[pulsar cradle]

nothing i just said game has easy recoil

and people said nuh uh

[haughty ember]

i'm still waiting for the game with difficult recoil

[inner pine]

oh yeah that aswell

[pulsar cradle]

every AR outside of FAL, AK15, scar-h is easy recoil

[blazing pond]

He already said bro! CS:GO and old Rust, then he got blown the fuck up for his dogshit take

[inner pine]

tarkov? squad?

[pulsar cradle]

and those have random recoil since of the horizontal

[inner pine]

ak5c being the underwater skeleton as always

[upper jewel]

cs has actual recoil patterns to play

[pulsar cradle]

does this game have an easier recoil than rust or cs:go?

yes

[blazing pond]

Does that make it EASY in the broad sense that you're allowed to use that word to describe it to anyone normal? No.

[pulsar cradle]

thats a lazer

[pulsar cradle]

whats ur answer to the question is it easier or not

[haughty ember]

been fucking around with the skorpion in the range this whole time, just pulled out the fal, feels like it doesn't move at all

[upper jewel]

Maybe you are correct, maybe i have made the average person better than they are but if you put a vertical on a skorpion anyone can do it imo

[blazing pond]

Don't try to be cheeky your way to an ill-made point, impudent lout.

[lunar root]

I don’t think recoil in this game is especially easy, players are just really easy to hit

[inner pine]

yeah you just said it yourself, "recoil patterns" learn 'em and you can laser XD far from "gun move left or right, maybe oonga boonga"

[pulsar cradle]

yes or no?

[upper jewel]

Also leaning as a mechanic inherently makes recoil easier

[lunar root]

How’s it related?

[upper jewel]

As you can counter the recoil to some extent without doing anything

[lunar root]

🤔

[upper jewel]

Related that the recoil in this game isnt hard

[blazing pond]

Do you need me to say it, or are you that impotent at debate and just concerned with getting a quick gotcha with no meat?

[upper jewel]

If you have a mechanic outside of shooting that makes shooting easier

[pulsar cradle]

i said that this game has no recoil, and then compared it to 2 games that have recoil systems

[inner pine]

yeah you just said it yourself, "recoil patterns" learn 'em and you can laser XD far from "gun move left or right, maybe oonga boonga"

[lunar root]

Leaning should make recoil harder to control if anything as the axis become tilted (have to adapt mouse movement to that)

[pulsar cradle]

you can jump into this game and lazer people with ARs

but cs:go and rust you need to learn them

[upper jewel]

so you think a game where you have to learn something is harder than a game that doesnt have anything to learn and you just pull down? or not

[haughty ember]

csgo recoil is a clusterfuck because you can't ads with most rifles tbf

[pulsar cradle]

so true so it doesnt matter

[lunar root]

Not a very good question as there’s so much other context to an answer that would be given to this

[pulsar cradle]

this game is inherently an arcade shooter with an easy to learn shooting system

[inner pine]

you can learn it => makes it way easier afterwards
i literally said cs go is easier stop strawmanning ffs

[haughty ember]

to expand on this since someone wants to be cute, ads inherently makes recoil control easier. put the dot in the middle of your screen on the target nbd. wanna talk about a game with easy recoil? titanfall 2. you get back to me when you find out how much recoil the alternator actually has in that game.

[inner pine]

just turned the 'puter off :/

[upper jewel]

cs go is easier?

ok

[haughty ember]

tbf i think csgo is easier because if you can hit a flick hs you don't need to know the rest of the recoil anyway

basically, just aim better

[night garnet]

[haughty ember]

the hardest part of aiming is tracking anyway

[pulsar cradle]

treu thats why pro players have put tens of THOUSANDS of hours into that game to learn it but ye its easy

[haughty ember]

hence why console has to automate that part with aim assist

[upper jewel]

you are so right, sorry for speaking

[inner pine]

obviously, that's the whole point randomness will always be harder to control
in cs you just learn that shit

[pulsar cradle]

would you say that cs:go is easier than battlebit

[haughty ember]

aim is the easiest part of learning csgo and valo. go learn the line ups and team play needed to actually play professionally then speak

[lunar root]

Pro players… the clue is in the name

If they are making a career out of this then of course they’ll spend a long time optimising their skills, that goes for any game
Doesn’t matter how marginal gains may be

[inner pine]

we are talking about recoil, not the general difficulty

[pulsar cradle]

well is the recoil easier to learn

[haughty ember]

yes

it's the same pattern every time

[pulsar cradle]

since in battlebit you can spawn in with the default ak and beam people up to 80m with no prior knowledge of the game

but in cs:go you would need to spend hunders of hours to learn a gun completely

[inner pine]

yes because it isn't random, you can't learn random you can only react after the fact

[inner pine]

🧢 no noob will do that just 🧢

[blazing pond]

Let's run back through the argument, then.

You're objectively wrong that this game has NO recoil, and comparing it to two games with 'harder recoil' (I disagree about CS:GO, predictable recoil is always inherently easier than random horizontal recoil once you learn it) somehow makes this game's recoil EASY? You're not allowed to call it easy in shorthand and appear to advocate for higher or 'harder' recoil in Battlebit, because most people will not compare it to your experience with old Rust and they'll look at you like this:

Give me the acc% you're hitting shots at 80m in this game with

Then tell me at what % you need to be above in order to call this game's recoil "easy"

[night garnet]

I mean yea if you have never touched a mouse in your life this game this game has plenty of recoil

For anyone who ever put maybe like 100h across their lifetime into any fpses they shouldnt feel a thing unless they are spraying at 80+ m

At that point it takes a tiny bit of learning but nothing out of the ordinary players reach

Comparared to other fpeses where it takes people hunders of hours to actually shoot well

Alongside the TTK being relatively low in battlebit the whole gunplay is more catered towards casual play anyway

[blazing pond]

I am genuinely interested in the acc% and defining easy question though, since it makes things more concrete and then we can just disagree in a reasonable manner at that point.

Also acc% in CS:GO for comparison would be more rigorous but that might be asking too much LOL

[pulsar cradle]

if you can kill a guy with the ak74 consistently with 5 shots at 50m then ur good

[night garnet]

I see no way at getting an accurate measurment for average acc% on a specific range only tbh

Too many variables coming into play

[pulsar cradle]

even that though is easy

[inner pine]

no one ever at 80m consistently

[blazing pond]

Yeah which is part of what makes this hard.

[inner pine]

50m more doable but still not consistent, espdcially not your average joe

[pulsar cradle]

actually nvm you should not be missing a single bullet at 50m with no attatchment ak74

[dawn plaza]

Recoil is easier with certain guns that have very little horizontal recoil. This mostly means the f2, ultimax, m4, ak74 aug, and the entire smg category, which probably needs a horizontal recoil nerf.

[inner pine]

do it.

[pulsar cradle]

hitting 4 consecutive bullets at 50m and getting a kill is 100%

[inner pine]

aug has a suprising amount of h-recoil

[inner pine]

not 100% with 40km/h + no accelleration but def ok

[pulsar cradle]

#off-topic message

this gun for sure has recoil

[dawn plaza]

True, but it's slow fire rate makes it much easier to deal with. It's also better than most guns tbh. I've got it at like .9 or something right now?

[haughty ember]

also leaning makes horizontal recoil a non-factor

[inner pine]

.8 i like the bcm for it tho .7
but i'm a little scorpion, val, g3 and ultimax goblin anyway so...

[pulsar cradle]

@inner pine does this gun have recoil?

[haughty ember]

i mean, you spent over half the mag for the kill

how much more recoil do you want?

[pulsar cradle]

ye on a target you legit cant even see

[dawn plaza]

You're using a gun designed around being super accurate

[pulsar cradle]

in response to this #1138534079499862208 message

[inner pine]

half a mag +leaning +aug... make of that what you will but that's some pretty screwed bs right there

[pulsar cradle]

XD

w/e

[haughty ember]

do it with the fal

[blazing pond]

I mean tbh, NOW we're getting to the point where we can just disagree LOL.
I just disagree, I don't think being able to do what that AUGguy did was all that impressive, I would not call it easy LOL

[haughty ember]

😄

[pulsar cradle]

why would you full auto a fal at that range ?

[inner pine]

my guy for a "laser" .8 h-recoil is quite "high" only compared to f2k, m4 etc tho

[pulsar cradle]

w/e have a good rest of the day/night everyone

[haughty ember]

me personally, for the challenge

[inner pine]

because it got easy recoil

[blazing pond]

I'm able to get 5 kill on moving 52m target ak74 no attachment 1 mag decently consistently, 6+ on the still one. I still wouldn't consider recoil easy.

tbf he did say FAL SCAR AK15 excepted earlier, I think?

[pulsar cradle]

yes outside of those ARs the rest have no recoil

[blazing pond]

I just disagree bro

[pulsar cradle]

since those just have horizontal since its random

[inner pine]

funny guy... i need what you're smoking

[pulsar cradle]

even then ak15 should be easy to get a kill at 50m

for even the average person

[night garnet]

I need your KD/KPM since you are clowning on everybody like you are better than everyone

🫡

[pulsar cradle]

at that range the recoil doesnt affect it that much and the first 4 bullets should kill a target if you just had your crosshair on them when you started shooting

[blazing pond]

What, without correcting/pulling down??

[pulsar cradle]

you cant correct recoil that is random?

just have your crosshair on them

[haughty ember]

i wish my stats were more accurate. started getting consistent 3-4 kd games but takes forever for my stats to move upwards

[inner pine]

i'm not, never claimed and already said i'm average, if i come of as a dick that's because rn we do a little trolling

[blazing pond]

I was asking because you made it seem like the recoil isn't enough to move the crosshair off a 50m target without correcting lol

[pulsar cradle]

never did i say anything about correcting

of course you have to use your mouse to aim ?

[inner pine]

ye, finally over 1.5kd but it'll still take decades until i have smth in the range 2-3 which reflects my current performance a lot more

[night garnet]

If you call openly calling people clowns for having a different and, lets just say for the sake of calming things down - equally valid opinion, then you are in fact a dick, and i did not excpect getting a good screenshot of your stats anyway to be completly honest

[inner pine]

well random recoil isn't easy to control within of itself... look at their claims... also i can't take people like that serious nor do i take myself very serious...

[night garnet]

Why cant you take people ,,like that" seriously?

I mean qhix is literally one of the best players in the entire game

[inner pine]

skill if you wanna call it that doesn't mean shit to me, if they have a bad take it's a bad take nothing more nothing less, just another crazy human being walking around somewhere

[night garnet]

I think the problem is you assume people have a bad take because you are misunderstanding it from the perspective of a clearly less knowledgable player

But i have no point in arguing in here anymore tbh, i dont enjoy donowalling for too long

[inner pine]

if i see a bad take and others call 'em out on that too then uhmmm.... idk seems to be smth with that don't ya think

and i am only really here to say
fix bipod and bring scorpion to assault.

[blazing pond]

Played a lot of FPS, the recoil isn't really any easier than CoD or Planetside or BF.
Two of those series have CoF, and all of them had automatic recoil resetting in some form. Maybe that's where the 80+m comes from, but idk I was hitting 80m kills with the better ARs in PS2 iirc, and in the few CoD with big maps hitting the same distance roughly 50m+ away people was comparable.

I just don't think it's appropriate to call it 'easy' or say that 'any joe' could do it. Have to keep in mind the average FPS. Compared to old Rust it's easy, but most games are easier than it ofc. Compared to Skilled Gamers ofc it's easy, but they'd probably find the average FPS's recoil easy. The recoil in magnitude feels very similar to CoD's recoil tbh. CS:GO's recoil is greater in magnitude (more pixels traveled per shot) iirc but more correctible if you take the time to learn the patterns (easy in one sense, hard in another).

I don't think it's appropriate to call for more difficult recoil by saying it's easy for the average joe to hit 30/30 bullets of the AK74 at 50m on a real enemy target. Partly because I just don't think that's true, partly because I think they're speaking from the perspective of Skilled Gamers who have dealt with hardcore recoil.

[granite pivot]

bring bipod to scorpion

[true sluice]

[strong jasper]

the game is so easy...

control recoil... pull down mouse ...

[blazing pond]

Oh yeah Halo, a lot of Halo games had easier recoil than BBR. The Battle Rifle went craaazy brother.
What made hitting people difficult for the average joe? Not the recoil system that's for damn sure, but they weren't hitting the higher skilled players that's also for damn sure.

[blazing pond]

Just got bodied by qhix on 127 Namak. Gotta take back everything I said 😔

[distant tapir]

There is nothing that camera rise can do that muzzle rise can't do better
It looks cooler, it's less frustrating, it's more immersive and it is less skewed to tiny red dots even at medium range

[exotic timber]

I remember I was strafing or something with a DMR while zoomed in with a 4x, and the camera view and the scope was bobbing all around, but all my shots were consistently going out the middle of the screen, not where the scope was aiming.

[ancient meteor]

UMP doing 35 damage 👎

[blazing pond]

Another mystery for "how the fuck do the gun mechanics work" pile.
If so, it looks like idle sway accurately reflects the aim point, but view bob and visual recoil don't.

[exotic timber]

Something I saw just now, during the end-of-game slowdown, if you fire with a 4x you can see how the scope jumps around, but the bullets are still more or less coming out of the center of the screen

[hearty goblet]

every day I vote for big, slow maps so I can actually use fun guns because I fucking hate dying in 4 frames to someone running around the corner at 200 miles per hour with the month's flavour of overpowered SMG

Midrange combat is where the game excels at rewarding skill and being fun so why is it the one with the worst TTK

[inner pine]

dusty being enjoyable for everyone but smg medics (you can enjoy it smg users)

[lunar root]

is it even enjoyable for them? There's so much flat, open land

[hearty goblet]

If I have to suffer through one more Frugis map with 150 C4 medics with 1.04 run speed I'm going to lose it

[distant tapir]

I mean, there are also zones where the SMGs work
They excel at close ranges, like snipers excel at far away, just like the entire map shouldn't be a single flat plane, it shouldn't be as peppered with a jungle of cover as it currently is

People using smgs should have to worry as much about positioning as everyone else

[hearty goblet]

Doesn't matter if there's no cover or not if you're running so fast you've crossed the field of vision by the time the bullet has reached you

[distant tapir]

That too

I'm gonna just copy what I said elsewhere but a big part of it is the complete lack of momentum and inertia

There is no skillful way to reliably counter someone spinning at 1.05 speed while keeping their whole momentum since you cannot actually lead your shots

They take longer to reach the target than it takes to change direction completely

The movement tech in this game is boring, broken as all hell, fucks up the rest of the game's balance by making half the cool systems it has novelties at best and a waste of time at worse, and exceedingly frustrating to go against

I'm more than ok with how the smgs perform up close
What I'm not ok with is how it's trivial to make every encounter you get into be upclose by just zooming towards the enemy every time

[inner pine]

turns the game from "enemy there, breach there" to "rush you idiots, now! zoom zoom kill boom ouch zoom kill zoom"

[ancient meteor]

ive been saying the same sorts of things since the stupid self-healing update. people wanted medic nerfed, not everyone else buffed. Using buffs as a substitute for proper nerfs is a recipe for unintended side-effects, and here we are; the game is way more chaotic (not the good, warfare-chaos kind of chaotic) and way more mainstream, run-of-the-mill, generic-y FPS. Its so sad and frustrating to see the generic FPS fanbase flood the game and take away its more gritty, harsh character

but with oki sending TTKs through the fucking floor (fuck the UMP) and not doing a god damn thing about the asinine, dogshit movement system, its just going the direction of hyperactive arcade shooter

[distant tapir]

Pfff have you seen this discord?
There's people complaining that the game still has the milsim features it was designed with in mind, and then complaining that milsim players "invade every game to suck the fun out"
It's a real lack of self reflection when people think milsim players are the ones taking other's space away

[ancient meteor]

man, its so rough to watch. its a fucking milsim-arcade hybrid. Thats why aimpunch used to be so brutal (I still think it was way overnerfed, theres no fucking point to it anymore), thats why you bleed, thats why you used to have to find a medic to heal, thats why support is so slow, etc etc.

Its not CoD, its not BF, its not Apex or whatever other hyperactive arcade shooter you want to name, but its also not squad. it was supposed to be something smack in the middle, and at launch it was. And it did that really really well

[distant tapir]

I feel like all it really needs to be good at that again is a movement and armor rebalance to be honest

If positioning, fortifying, and teamplay actually matters, it would feel much better, and changing movement seems to be the best way to do it rn

[ancient meteor]

aye. theres some really strange gun balances (UMP, SVD, etc) that have come about as a result of the huge shift towards arcade, but really oki only needs to bring down movement speed (specifically, squash everything down towards support and the slower recons) and make armour matter more. we arent too far gone yet

oh and fuck off with the squad spawning lmao

it annihilates any sort of team play

[distant tapir]

Yeah

Wholy agreed

[inner pine]

squad spawning needs to be fixed
movement has to be adjusted
some sort of unreliablility on medic has to stay i don't want to play it or be their pet
more suppression
that'd be perfect, but nah cod and bf are cooler because shrimp expression...

[hearty goblet]

self-medkit on medic should go. use slow bandages and suffer chip like the rest of the classes

[ancient meteor]

maybe its the way people are coping with activision seemingly old-yellering CoD. but BF2042 isnt nearly as bad nowadays as people say it is (they mostly shit on it because it was funny two years ago), go play that if you want a AAA arcade shooter. stop taking Battlebits identity away from it

[hearty goblet]

squad spawning should be removed and squad rally points made much cheaper, smaller, but also much easier to kill

stop people from holding space if they can't respawn due to the 10 second timer anyway

c4 on medic can go down to 2. medic claymores are fine

[ancient meteor]

ugh. the fact that oki reduced that bleedout timer is so dumb. there was no need for that

[hearty goblet]

assault can get bonus spawn speeds to really feel like a frontline pusher class to compensate for nerfed squad spawning

building structures should give points when they block shots

[ancient meteor]

not a bad idea, but i think we need to get the whole "hyperactive arcade shooter" biz on lockdown first lol

[hearty goblet]

game should be about securing areas, angles, plopping a flag down to let your teammates catch up, then pushing the next objective

not

whatever the fuck this rush fest is

[ancient meteor]

yep

[haughty ember]

I love reading this stuff because that’s exactly what my teammates do. Is hold angles and be useless while I’ve already killed everyone on the way to the next obj

Just refusing to find their movement keys and contribute

[ancient meteor]

but the game's marketing was way too succesful for its own good and the massive influx of people who only got the "Battlefield" part of "Squad + Battlefield" really muddied the waters

[hearty goblet]

i mean the only reason holding angles doesn't matter in your games is 1. you can spawn on them regardless if they defended the area well or not 2. you can run and self-sustain fast enough to blitz an area without them 3. the enemy can also spawn and push super fast so defending always feels useless

[haughty ember]

I like defending the objective right in front of the enemies safe zone. Usually by myself

[hearty goblet]

i mean if your skill lets you do that, then valid

if you can hold them all off by yourself you deserve that reward of feeling like a one man army

due to your skill

but what i'm saying is the rest of the game that leads up to that point needs to change

things move too fast, playing carefully is almost never rewarded

short ttk and fast fire rates are king

medic is a self sustaining sonic speed juggernaut

[haughty ember]

Playing carefully isn’t rewarded for me right now because the hitreg is absolutely abysmal

[ancient meteor]

its not rewarded for anyone

[haughty ember]

It feels really good to get 4+ hit markers and still need another 4-5 to kill

[ancient meteor]

movement is so fast without any intertia, its simply a better option than wearing armour and holding your cover

runspeed is like 18mph

thats crazy fast

(for the faster builds. support sure as hell aint running that fast)

[lunar root]

literally nobody is going to play medic if it can't compete with other classes in combat

[haughty ember]

I genuinely think it’s server connectivity issues/netcode issues right now

[inner pine]

idk i just want milsim mode an official one oki

[lunar root]

meters in this game are not the same size as irl

[haughty ember]

The aggressor already naturally has the advantage (peekers advantage has always and will always exist) but it’s definitely skewed

[hearty goblet]

medic already has second best move speed, most guns, best self heal

not like it's suffering rn lmao

oh and gadgets

[haughty ember]

Engineer is increasingly popular, people like dmrs and when they can’t compete skill wise they resort to the rpg

[lunar root]

engineer has the same guns, no? Assault can be faster than medic at base, it just does not have SMGs so usually ends up about the same

[inner pine]

40km/h+ without inertia + air "strafing" is ridiculous

[inner pine]

yeah fuck the rpg shotgun

[lunar root]

without faster heal I don't see why anyone would play medic over assault

since SMGs are bad now

[distant tapir]

????

Bad???

[inner pine]

smgs are good

[hearty goblet]

perhaps for the original purpose of the class??? reviving and healing???????
also in what world are smgs bad 80% my deaths i'm killed by PDWs and SMGs

[lunar root]

they have been nerfed so much in past months

[distant tapir]

I want some of that Zaza bro

[lunar root]

people are not selfless enough for that. right now half of people don't revive anyway

[ancient meteor]

honestly this. just throw it together well enough that it works and let people choose their game style. hes done a really poor job of managing the differences between "arcade" and "arcade-milsim hybrid" playerbases and now you have a large population of both, but the latter keeps getting absolutely shafted

[haughty ember]

The only good smgs are the mp7 and the ump and we all know the ump is getting dumpstered soon

[inner pine]

yea but they were bussin before xd

[hearty goblet]

cool they'll just move to assault. what do we lose? the people who play to revive will still play medic

[inner pine]

i want a casual milsim, not as harsh as ico sqaud but def not the drug addict shit we got rn

[lunar root]

that is like almost none of them

less medics = reviving is less convenient

so it will happen less

[inner pine]

FUCK YEAH
the amount of medics running past me is annoying as hell

[hearty goblet]

you're talking like i want to make medics do like 20% flat less damage solar lmao all I want to do is give them the same self heal as all the other classes

self heal = bandage only

[lunar root]

self heal is their whole appeal

[hearty goblet]

kit for others

[ancient meteor]

and honestly, early access launch was almost that. it was almost there. but then all the BF and CoD troglodytes rolled in because the marketing was waaaay too effective and suddenly the game's target audience was a minority of its playerbase

[hearty goblet]

for a certain type of player sure

i know there are people who play medic for the self sustain and they'll still have 20 FUCKING BANDAGES to work with. they'll just not have an infinite box of instant full health

[ancient meteor]

aye, medic needs to be for people who want to be the medic. not for people who want to be assault but better

[haughty ember]

It’s not even close to instant, you can easily die while trying to heal even as medic

[hearty goblet]

faster than bandages for non-medic classes though

but yes sorry i'm using hyperbole

[ancient meteor]

way faster, and you get to use it without limit

[haughty ember]

Medic with bandage only healing would be only slightly slower and arguably better

[inner pine]

ye, i mean i don't want to be medics pet but an overall slower game could def address that issue

[haughty ember]

Chunk healing is a lot better for turning fights than the small tick healing

[ancient meteor]

you could slow down a medics self-bandaging to halfway between normal-medic and normal-nonmedic. bandaging yourself is harder than banding someone else :/

[haughty ember]

Let’s just remove medic tbh. What difference does it provide from any of the other classes at that point? It either needs enough to have its own identity or just remove it

This is the problem the other classes have

Is they have no real identity

[ancient meteor]

the ability to heal other players without using bandages?

[haughty ember]

They don’t do enough differently to stand out

[hearty goblet]

Medic has the most identity of all the classes tbh

[haughty ember]

Yeah, and you want to remove it

So it’s just worse assault

So why even have medic?

[hearty goblet]

No, I want to make it more reasonable

[ancient meteor]

who wants to remove what?

[haughty ember]

Okay? But the other classes have no identity. So pushing medic down to be equally dogshit is not going to be fun for anyone

[hearty goblet]

The class with the MOST identity is the one that can lose a little of it with the least damage

[hearty goblet]

Are you literally saying the other classes are so bad that nerfing medic would make the game unfun

And that medic is the only good class

[ancient meteor]

also, its generally only assault that has no identity, and thats directly because of medic

engi definitely has its own identity. so does recon. so does support

assault has medic stepping all over its toes

[haughty ember]

That is the current game state yes. Assault has ads and reload speed… cool. Engi’s identity is that it has an rpg, that most people use as a shotgun. Support has armor that’s good 1 time per life and then worse guns and movement than anyone else to compensate. And recon is recon

Do you not think those classes would benefit from something?

[ancient meteor]

that sounds an awful lot like the other classes have plenty of identity

[haughty ember]

As opposed to nerfing a class that is in a good spot?

[haughty ember]

1 thing that doesn’t make them stand out any better than their competition in their own role. Yeah you’re a genius

[ancient meteor]

engi has major utility in conquest, and support is now a huge... support for dishing out ammo rations

[haughty ember]

Nice, engi rpg is good against vehicles, you know what else is good vs vehicles that everyone else has? C4

[inner pine]

i think the medkit could use the same healing mechanic as when lying on the ground, faster ofc but that'd bring it down to a reasonable lvl, rn it feels dirty honestly

[haughty ember]

There’s actually a whole feedback thread discussing c4

[ancient meteor]

c4 is far more situational than an RPG from 300m

[haughty ember]

Because engineers feel limp dicked next to it

[ancient meteor]

and lets say C4 gets its due nerf. there, engi has undeniable identity as the go-to class for anti-vehicle needs. it needs no buff\

[haughty ember]

So 1 class out of 4 (that still need one) now has it’s identity, phenomenal

[ancient meteor]

1?

recon has its identity very clearly, support has its new identity for keeping everyone topped off on ammo

[inner pine]

support and assault have an idenity, but a bad one

[haughty ember]

Do you really live long enough to need support top off?

Do you really?

[ancient meteor]

yes

often

[haughty ember]

Cause I can think of once in my last 20 games I ran through every single mag I had

[inner pine]

yes actually, atleast as a medic without ranger because prestige 'n shit

[ancient meteor]

different playstyles homie.

and when i play as support i never find myself short on people to supply, and people who are visibly grateful for it

[inner pine]

i mean not every mag empty but i much rather have some for an emergency

[haughty ember]

The emergency answer is Glock

[dense warren]

This. And it's even more laughable that jumping doesn't reset your momentum, especially when you do it like 50 times in a row while also parkouring around 5m tall ledges and sprinting, reloading, throwing grenades, healing, resupplying and farting at the same time.

[haughty ember]

I just throw every mag away at this point. The odds of living to use all of them is so low with the connection issues

[inner pine]

doesn't always work, networking and ttk diff 😦

[dense warren]

The rambo zoom zoom action economy in this game should be seriously looked at, you shouldn't be able to perform any action other than sprinting and maybe running jumps while sprinting.

[haughty ember]

Damn y’all really are desperate for people to just be in every window and building never moving aren’t you?

[dense warren]

This doesn't matter at all because bandaging yourself takes way too long. In that time a rational player could kill 10 people with p90, reload twice, and kill 10 more by shoving his gun up their ass. No aiming or skill required, just run up to them like sonic on meth and left click.

[ancient meteor]

nobody mentioned windows?

[inner pine]

not really and i don't think nerfing movement would cause that but i think that should be reserved for milsim mode, whenever that is coming (pls oki)

[haughty ember]

Yeah we need that milsim split asap

[dense warren]

What this amounts to is that milsim and arcade mechanics directly counteract one another. I don't mind Quake level of movement, in Quake. But not in a game where it takes you 8 seconds to reload and about the same to bandage a tiny cut after taking 8 damage from a long range SMG pot shot so that you don't bleed out.

[distant tapir]

God forbid I go back into cover, do a few turns and get behind the guy
Or worse... get teammates to help get them..

[dense warren]

c4 should go down to 2 on every class if they refuse to nerf its effects and ease of use

[haughty ember]

What about his teammates? Who are watching his flank or pushing up from respawning?

Also go back into cover? God I wish the game would let me do that

Maybe some day the netcode will be fixed

[distant tapir]

That's.. the thing with teams fighting? People have to adapt to try and get the other team?

[lunar root]

regardless of latency issues you're out of cover for the same period of time

[haughty ember]

Latency says I die almost half a second after I’m behind cover rn

It’s massively fucked

[distant tapir]

Plus with how good the visibility is I pretty much see everyone in every window ever

[inner pine]

not really...

[lunar root]

then you also get out of cover that much slower

[distant tapir]

Which Imo is a unique plus for this game

[inner pine]

no... that's not how that works xD

[haughty ember]

The visibility in urban environments is great. The visibility everywhere else is not so much at times

[lunar root]

how so?

[haughty ember]

Too much ground clutter man

[lunar root]

I meant to schlammjumper

[haughty ember]

I know, just typing stuff

Completing my thought

[inner pine]

oh lol "slower" mb, read "faster"
but also not smth that advantagous
latency in general...

[lunar root]

yeah I mistyped

so edited

[dense warren]

Yesterday I literally watched a situation on Eduardovo north point where two guys were lying in grass/bushes not 10m from each other and their squads kept continually spawning on them and killing each other

Went on for a couple of minutes before somebody killed one of the mobile respawn point guys

Or should I say immobile given the circumstances

[distant tapir]

God I hate squad spawning

[lunar root]

squod I hate guad spawning

[haughty ember]

I don’t mind it, steady stream of free kills

Otherwise it gets boring

[dapper shard]

So, picking up a mag off the ground during the reload shouldn't be a thing right? Maybe picking it up could scale to mag size or something if it's kept how it currently is?

I've always found it a bit silly you can basically ignore the penalty of dropping your mag by picking it up during the reload. It's not really a skill diff (it's not hard in any way), more of an oversight/exploit.

If there's 0 penalty for dropping your mag for a faster reload, then what's really the point of it. The only case I could see it being better to tactical (long) reload is when on the move without any cover at all. But even then you could probably stop to reload for half a second

[haughty ember]

You don’t consider staring at the ground to be a penalty?

[dapper shard]

Pretty sure you just prone while reloading for like half a sec. It's not like you're going to be shooting anything while reloading

[haughty ember]

You can be pushed while reloading

[dapper shard]

Yes, so why is picking up the mag while reloading a thing. It removes most of the reload choice imo since it's just the better option most of the time. To be clear, not saying to remove the mechanic, but make it so you can't pickup the mag you just dropped while reloading

[haughty ember]

Tbh I think the game has so many bigger problems I’m not sure why this is even being brought up.

[dapper shard]

[haughty ember]

This is like, the nitpick to end all nitpicks bro

[dapper shard]

Just because there are other problems doesn't mean you can't bring up other things

[ancient meteor]

this is a feedback thread. this is exactly the place to nitpick. its the fucking point of it lol

[haughty ember]

I mean, just to put this in perspective, your proposed change does nothing to me because I don’t go back the spent mag anyway. But just, it’s so fucking irrelevant as a whole

[ancient meteor]

you arent the entire playerbase

i dont drop reload

[haughty ember]

Sounds like a mistake on your part

[dapper shard]

I've seen a lot of YouTube clips of people dropping the mag then going prone to pick it up (or just looking at it) to reload faster.

[inner pine]

idk why tho? it doesn't affect anyone negatively

[dapper shard]

It's not like bad, it just sort of invalidates the drawback a little bit lol