Flinch / Aim Punch - Feedback

[pastel shore]

???? flawed logic, aim punch already favors high RPM guns dramatically. Removing it helps lower ROF weapons...

[tired oriole]

Ah sorry misread your main point (thought we were on the shotgun thing again). I just don't see the point in having aimpunch when at 100m-200m its a positioning issue. You have smokes, you have flashes, all these tactical abilities such as sandbags.... yet we are going for... drumroll... aimpunching

[flint maple]

You move significantly faster side to side in quake lol. If you had Quake movement in BB you could cross the map in a straight line on foot in less than 10 seconds.

[pastel shore]

yes that's in my suggsetion already

[final olive]

Not even close... Couldn't even do that with Tribes movement (which had faster straight line than quake by a lot)

[flint maple]

Its not flawed logic. It would make it worse. The fix for high RPM is recoil ans/or damage reduction like every other game does lol.

[tiny glacier]

The high RPM currently benefit the most from Aimpunch, so removing it would hurt them more than low RPM guns

[pastel shore]

Again, because that helps deal with then at 100-200m. Them being aim punched is important and forces snipers into using cover properly, otherwise they have advantage even in the open. You can pressure snipers using aim punch, even if you don't get the kill, knowing they will have a hard time shooting back. Without aim punch in the equation, it's suicide even pressuring them. 100-200m is still well within effective range of ARs and DMRs, snipers should be vulnerable at that distance and be punished for being caught out.

We already know how that plays out, that's how it was before the game was live. Snipers were immensely overpowered. This isn't just theorizing, we already have data. The entire reason aim punch exists in the game was to nerf snipers because they were so strong pre-release.

It just happens that the current solution doesn't work well for everything else. So remove it from everything else, keep it for snipers, and it's the best solution.

[pastel shore]

...yes it is.

Aim punch benefits higher RPM. How is it possible that removing it helps higher RPM weapons? Like, think about it for literally 1 second, dude.

[tiny glacier]

I can agree with this, if the data shows that snipers are a problem without aimpunch then keep it in for them.

[placid dagger]

You never really explained why you hate aim punch so much for snipers. All I've been trying to tell you is that it'd force people to use cover cleverly instead of taking gunfights out in the open.

[tired oriole]

All of this falls apart when you factor in how quickly Assault/AR can move within the 100m-200m range and you have utilities like flashbangs, smokes, etc. Before the game launched nobody had enough time to properly dissect and understand everything until now. It's crystal clear to my experience playing all the roles that smokes/flashes + the ability to build cover literally anywhere counters snipers more than aimpunch ever will.

[pastel shore]

Yep, a few of the maps were basically unplayable as a result. There would be 40-70 snipers and the only thing you could do against them is snipe.

[tired oriole]

I already explained to you its artificial difficulty that people can adapt to and compensate their aim.

[pastel shore]

no, it doesn't. Anyway, I don't have to convince you, you are being stubborn. We already know what happens. You are wrong and that is known from playtests, so you can stop arguing with me because I don't care 🙂

[jade crater]

why are you so inflammatory?

[placid dagger]

and I said how can someone react to a random flinch? It is not humanly possible to react to a random stimulant that quickly...

[tired oriole]

I accept your concession.

[flint maple]

Because the probably is....being higher RPM. Most games balance high RPM weapons with recoil, lower damage or smaller mags. Look at how no onr uses honey badger even though it's high RPM. It has so much recoil.

[placid dagger]

the ttk is low enough where the time you have to readjust nears impossbility

[glacial cloak]

this is a weapon balance problem and shouldn't be related to flinch

[pastel shore]

ok, someone else can take this argument, I tried my best. No way to make it any easier to understand than I did.

[flint maple]

If smgs weren't laser beams you wouldnt get flinch stacking so hard

[tired oriole]

You just have to feel out which direction the crosshair is going with the initial flinch. After that its just compensating.

[tiny glacier]

I do think people are undervalueing smokes right now.

If the maps are oppressive with snipers that seems like a seperate issue than the aimpunch, there are many tools to combat them and there can be cover added so they do not have as long of sightlines

[tired oriole]

THIS

[pastel shore]

I use them, but they are extremely buggy and exploitable. If you are close enough, they become 1 way smokes. So if someone tries to smoke you off, you just run into the smoke and mow them down.

I actually abuse this by dropping them on myself, sometimes.

[tired oriole]

I wanna see everyone that wants aimpunch and how many smokes they've used in this game

[glacial cloak]

yeah this is why i support a damage/caliber based reduction of flinch

[tiny glacier]

That is a problem with the way smokes are rendered, I have run into that before.

[cloud marten]

The existence of aimpunch is fine

The levels are more nuanced

[tiny glacier]

I think the problem with this idea is the TTK is so low that the difference would have to be massive between the calibers to do anything

like SMGs have 50% the flinch of ARs and pistols have 10% the flinch

[glacial cloak]

it can be scaled accordingly

[placid dagger]

Mate this only sounds good when you don't try to think about it more. I don't have the exact number but let's say the average ttk for an automatic gun is around 300 ms, average human reaction speed is 200-250 ms. Even without thought this leaves around 100 ms at best for you to readjust your aim. You also have to take into account that the flinch is random. That sounds like something that can't be reproduced consistently to me

[tiny glacier]

Agreed

[glacial cloak]

overall flinch should be reduced or maybe make it only screen shake instead of moving reticle

[flint maple]

Agreed, but the biggest problem is how RNG the flinch is. Sometimes I land 3 bullets and someone chest they flick to me and I get flinched so hard that I lose the fight. Othertimea it feels like I don't get flinched at all.

[jade crater]

if you had flinch applied and flinch recieved stats you could mantain snipers being flinched, lmgs applying flinch while not recieving as much, ar's being decent at both etc. any combination you want. I think it's the most robust solution that provides the ability to balance the game when edge cases arise.

[tired oriole]

Just watch pro players in other games. All you have to do is figure out the direction of the flinch at the beginning of the hit. Then its easy to guesstimate where your crosshair will be and adjust for it. A lot of people anticipate getting hit and this game has projectile weapons so you can already see a bullet about to hit you. When you consider these factors it is not hard to compensate your aim.

[placid dagger]

While I agree that smokes are a good counter to snipers, they should not be mandatory to deal with them. If you catch a sniper with their pants down they should not be able to aim way their out of that as well. Positioning is a core skill to sniping.

[glossy sequoia]

Honestly if flinch is here to stay, flinch should be receiving the recoil of the gun you're hit by not that you receive your guns recoil.

[tiny glacier]

i agree, someone earlier said slower ADS with harsher move speed penalty while ADS

could solve that problem

[glossy sequoia]

if firing the bullet gives me 2/2 recoil, the person on the receiving end should feel the force of that bullet

[placid dagger]

Not specifying "other games" is not conducive to arguments. What games? Just now we went into how incomparable BBR is to CS:GO. You have to take more things into account before comparing games to other games.

[glacial cloak]

honestly i dont think snipers are too big of a problem

[flint maple]

Thats one of the biggest reason SMG flinch is so strong. If you have a rifle it's GG

[glacial cloak]

i dont see why people keep wanting to destroy the aggressive sniper playstyle when its mainly the long range snipers that are annoying

[glossy sequoia]

Rifle or PDW/Carbines have horrible flinch

all but smg have really bad flinch imo which is funny

[tiny glacier]

I think people are talking about catching a sniper in the 50-100m range

[placid dagger]

Anyways I'm done arguing this with you. If a <100 ms reaction check seems doable to you on the regular I don't think anything can convince you.

[glossy sequoia]

<100 ms reaction check that is random

[flint maple]

Because getting 1 shot from a pixel peek is annoying. Getting 1 shog after landing 2 chest shots is annoying. Pretty much every game I've played with shotguns and snipers that givss them more damage than other guns but the same mobility ends up with a 1 shot meta.

[glossy sequoia]

can go left or right

[glacial cloak]

i think this game deals with it decently well with helmets

[pastel shore]

We don't. My suggestions even specify medium/long range scopes, so ironsights/red dots on snipers wouldn't have aim punch

[glossy sequoia]

so even if you see the bullet coming to you, and try to guess (oh it will jump left) and move your mouse right, you're a 50/50 bet

[placid dagger]

bro has that intel core in his brain

yeah that was being mean ngl

[jade crater]

the upper end of human reaction times is 150ms, dunno how the fuck you think <100 ms is managable lol

[flint maple]

Idk I run light everything because vs other infantry classes speed is king.

[glossy sequoia]

Maybe he has a memory checker and has figured out what memory value produces left/right recoil

[tired oriole]

I'm already able to do this with the existing aimpunch along with many others. So we don't have to use other games as an example if you don't like that. But anyway I digress.

[glacial cloak]

maybe im interpreting this wrong but if you catch a sniper with their pants down and somehow dont kill them and they manage to kill you thats entirely your fault

[placid dagger]

he's talking about this #1133360306278645810 message and this #1133360306278645810 message

[glossy sequoia]

thats the point you couldn't guess and if you do guess there is a 50% chance you're wrong and doubled your recoil

[flint maple]

I mean we have two different client states trying to reconcile on the server so you can both have completely different PoV and time to react.

[placid dagger]

we don't do the skill issue bit here. If the sniper is skilled enough and his aim is not hindered by any mechanic he can just one tap you in the head. That's why we have game mechanics to stop top 1% of players from doing that consistently

[jade crater]

were not even talking 'adjusting' were talking about the time it takes for your monkey brain to react to a stimulus on screen and pressing a button, not calculating direction, speed, angle, magnitude, just reaction time

not caling you a monkey btw

[pastel shore]

You can microadjust for aim punch, but not at the frequency it occurs. It's back to back to back in 50 ms per impulse in some fights. That is physically impossible to compensate for.

That's why in my list of suggestions, I include the cooldown on it, 300 ms, which would allow for microadjusting, as well as normalizing aim punch across different fire rates

[glossy sequoia]

I would be fine with it being sniper only or any gun that can one shot headshot, but I feel the issue with hit punch is it just buffs the already best class of guns, aka SMG and the p90

[glacial cloak]

my point is that its hard enough to turn around and just headshot someone

if you had the positioning advantage and caught them by surprise you'd win most of the time

[glossy sequoia]

since they seem to receieve minimal recoil and hit punch other guns into oblivion

[glacial cloak]

i think either scaling it based on damage/caliber or adding a cooldown for how often you can flinch would solve this

[glossy sequoia]

Take something like the groza or honey badger past 50m and if that dude is firing at you good luck

[glacial cloak]

groza does very well at range

[placid dagger]

Also just to reiterate, this is just to make snipers use cover, not to destroy their mid range effectiveness.

[glossy sequoia]

it does good unless you're being fired upon it has serious hit punch

[jade crater]

groza feels like im firing wiffle balls lol

[glossy sequoia]

compare the hit punch to the vector/mp7/mp5 vs the groza

leagues different

[glacial cloak]

are you saying that you have serious aimpunch when being fired at by a groza? or when you are using a groza?

[flint maple]

When you ADS the bullet comes out of your head. People headglitch so hard that it's annoying when you have to try and shoot the tip of a sniper helmet with an AR with fighting recoil and the weapons inaccuracy(bloom), while they power through 2 shots and click your head. I think snipers should have way more sway when standing. I don't think you should be able to aggressive snipe and also have the strengths of range.

[glossy sequoia]

using the groza

[glossy sequoia]

hit punch received is dependent on the gun you're firing with not the gun you're taking bullet from

[glacial cloak]

oh

[jade crater]

first shot kick makes aimpunch crazy

[glacial cloak]

so each gun alreayd has a coded hit punch stat?

i thought it was equal for everything right now

[jade crater]

its based on your guns recoil/first shot kick if i understand correctly

not the gun you're being hit by

[glacial cloak]

ah

[glossy sequoia]

yep why the groza has some serious hit punch received

[glacial cloak]

well that seems kind of stupid it should be based on the gun you're being hit by

[jade crater]

i confused myself

[glossy sequoia]

So far what i've noticed it's based off the gun your wielding when you take a bullet

[jade crater]

ya

[glossy sequoia]

I only notice it on guns with decently high base recoil even if you fix it's recoil with something like tactical/vertical (or whatever)

[jade crater]

groza base recoil is average, its first shot kick is high though, i think that's why, same with dmr

[glacial cloak]

headglitches are a whole other problem lol

[glacial cloak]

ok well if this is real then it definitely is a problem lol

[jade crater]

head glitches go both ways, you can't land a handshot on someone lean spamming and strafing

[glacial cloak]

at the bare minimum aimpunch shoudl be equal if nto based on the gun you were shot by

[glossy sequoia]

its what makes SMG's so annoying is you cant get their aim off you, vs Groza/Honey badger/AS Val

which at longer ranges and recieved fire can save someone by making them flinch

[jade crater]

yea, that's what i assumed it was when i started palying, i think most people assume that. It's easier to code in aimpnuch just using the existing recoil of the gunyou're holding though, so it makes sense why it was implemented that way.

[glacial cloak]

wouldn't making it equal for all guns be the easiest?

making it based on the gun you're holding just makes no sense

[jade crater]

high rates of fire would be busted, as we are currently seeing

[glacial cloak]

yeah but if its based on your own weapon high rof would be busted anyway if you had a high recoil gun

[jade crater]

yea it makes more sense to tie it to the weapon that's dealing damage, i don't think the current implementation makes sense, i think the way that they went about doing it makes sense. Becuase it was a fast fix. Now they're revisiting it.

[flint maple]

True but I know they won't fix it so we have to balance around it

[glossy sequoia]

The only high ROF gun with high recoil is the EVO

[flint maple]

You don't need go. 3 shot them in the legs haha

[glossy sequoia]

If you count 800 ROF as high rof, AS VAL and Honey badger

[jade crater]

oh i meant with a sniper rifle, as soon as you hit someone they start running away lol

[glacial cloak]

i dont find headglitches to be too annoying as you can usually just reposition

[glossy sequoia]

I find the opposite usually im hitting people behind a wall somehow or getting sniped when i lean back into cover

[jade crater]

i think they aren't annoying because ony 2% of the playerbase use them. if it was 60% it'd get nerfed

[flint maple]

I do because often I don't see the guy headglitching because everything is blocky+ the headbob when moving

[glossy sequoia]

I literally see a bullet wizz by my head and 0.3 seconds later im dead by that shot

or I pop a shot on someone leaning and somehow kill them behind the rock

[flint maple]

They would have to redesign the maps. This is the excuse every other dev gives when asked to fix headglitches

[glacial cloak]

i do agree that the bob when running is annoying

wish you could turn it off

[glossy sequoia]

Honestly wish hit punch was only for one shot guns like deagle/Snipers

[flint maple]

The flinch+ headglitch combo super strong. Good luck even attempting to hit that pixel back aha

[flint maple]

Shouls be based on weapon

If they balanced weapons around more than flat stats we wouldn't have so many problems.

[placid dagger]

headglitches are a bit tricky to balance for imo

just gotta blow them up next time you are around the area

[glacial cloak]

i agree for other stats, but for hit punch i would like to see more consistency so you can learn to adjust for it

[placid dagger]

wouldn't this just remove the whole idea behind hit punch though?

it's effectiveness comes from the fact that you can't plan for it

that's why it's frustrating

you don't see people complaining about bullet drop

[glacial cloak]

even if all aimpunch was equal it would still be effective because it physically moves your reticle

i might be wrong but the direction is still random

[flint maple]

You can head glitch like 90% of the map depending on if you crouch ,lean etc

[flint maple]

Tbh idk why armor doesnt actually do anything vs it.

[glacial cloak]

yeah like orphan said earlier the current implementation is definitely a quick fix

[placid dagger]

This is why it's almost impossible to make it adjustable

that's what I was replying to

[flint maple]

I feel like they need to expand the complexity of stats otherwise they'll just make more frustrafing gameplay. If armor becomes too strong it will feel bad to play vs it. I think more things in the game need trade offs to actually balance the gameplay.

[flint maple]

Could increase recoil and weapon inaccuracy while moving/ based on aim state so you can have the chance to move into cover

[glacial cloak]

ok yeah you're right its gonna be very difficult to compensate either way

[flint maple]

Go everyone on the remove flinch train you can try to play BF 2042 and see why it's a bad idea lol.

[green dragon]

i like the way old halo games did it where the crosshair position forced you to stick out a little more

[flint maple]

I absolutely hate lowered crosshairs. They should just make the bullet come out of the gun.

[pastel shore]

That was just a console thing, they removed it once it came to pc. It was cus the fov was so low lol

[green dragon]

its still on pc now but it is the worse option

[pastel shore]

Yea I meant its no longer forced, just an option for people who got used to and prefer it.

[plush flare]

Neither of those things actually interfere with player input. When you're in a smoke or blind from a flash you still have full control over where you are turning and when to shoot and where you move.

[green dragon]

if centered wasnt an option (or was somehow made equal in utility) id go back to lowered tbh. Outside of having to be more visible, It looks a lot better when running around. Instead of a good chunk of the screen looking down at the ground, it looks mostly up. IDK how well that'd work in any other fps, but it feels perfect for Halo, communicating the larger-than-life scale of everything

[flint maple]

Tbh i always felt like this logic was faulty. I'm looking at headshot level with centred reticle. I can see the ground and sky. With lowered crosshair I feel like I'm struggling to kee my croshair at headshot level and if I do I can no longer see the ground which means you'll run into claymores and mines more often. I play a lot of Hunt and have to raise my monitor to mimic a centred crosshaif otherwise I get neck pain from looking down for so long. A centred crosshair is way closer to my FoV in real life than a lowered crosshair, it feels more natural.

[green dragon]

that's a fair complaint to have for sure. Maybe it is just best for halo since everything's built to be really big and tall

[sinful hatch]

I feel like flinch Flinch is not fun! If it is going to stay it must be reduced or removed. I like the idea of the LMG's being the only ones to have it.

[jade crater]

Removing the ability to see doesn't interfere with your ability to aim? I understand disagreeing on smokes, but flashbangs approach 'hard disable' territory and reside in the same ball park as aimpunch as far as disabling your opponent goes. Both greatly reduce your ability to hit a target. My point was the line of thinking 'disabling any player in any way is bad design cause it feels bad' isn't logically sound and shouldn't be the basis for a balance decision. I wasn't refering to whether or not aimpunch and flashbangs are balanced.

[plush flare]

Removing the ability to see doesn't interfere with your ability to aim?
Correct. Your sensitivity is the same as it is when you're not blind. A flash does not disable any of your movement keys nor does it disable your shoot key. You have full control over your character while you are blind.

My point was the line of thinking 'disabling any player in any way is bad design cause it feels bad' isn't logically sound
Also correct, that's a terrible way of thinking. The statement you made there is not the statement I made.

[jade crater]

I feel like anything in a game that interferes with the player having full control over their character and inputs is not a good mechanic. ?

aimpunch is overtuned for sure, but limited vision/slowing/stunning/etc aren't inherently 'bad' mechanics. They're present in lots and lots of good and succesful games, first person shooters or otherwise.

[pastel shore]

Cc or loss of control specifically is something that is generally avoided at all costs in fps games.

Overwatch even went as far as to remove the vast majority of them for ow2.

Cc in mmorpgs are different completely, they aren't comparable to those effects in fps games.

[jade crater]

i understand, i don't think anything egregious should be in bb and full on loss of control should be left for games like overwatch and tf2 , but things like flashbangs do fall into the cc category. I was disagreeing about the doctrine of 'cc feels bad therefore bad mechanic'. We both agree that loss of aimcontrol is fine in some circumstances, like scoped snipers, so even in bb it can have it's place.

[pastel shore]

Flashbang don't, as they don't affect your input in anyway. You still retain full control of your camera, even though you can't see shit

[jade crater]

i mean, it's splitting hairs as to the interpretation of 'losing control' at that point. If we changed it so that your recoil or weapon sway was 1000x during a flashbangs or another grenade, you didn't 'lose control' but it removed your ability to aim. So removing someone's vision profoundly detrimental, near the same degree of severity as randomized recoil from aimpunch.

[mint token]

I think I get why I find this whole discussion hard to follow, and the cries to remove flinch entirely so baffling.

For me, the ability to shoot at an enemy that has shot me first is not a "combat option"; it is a last resort. Refer to the popular "survivability onion":

Now, the onion doesn't mean that I want the game to be a stealth shooter, but I do think that anyone asking for leniency past the "Don't be hit" layer has their priorities mixed up.

This game is an arcade/milsim hybrid. You can't approach combat the same way you would for CoD or Battlefield.

Again, I do think flinch should be adjusted downward, but removing it entirely is absurd.

[tiny glacier]

see the funny thing to me is, it goes both ways. just because i have the drop on someone, because of the RNG of the flinching, doesnt mean i win the fight.

Maybe the Devs want some fights to lose to RNG but IDK.

[fair summit]

this game is very heavily arcade with only cursory milsim elements tacked on lmao

it's a much closer analogue to BF than it is to Squad

which is why there's a dedicated hardcore mode coming

[tiny glacier]

It is possible adjusting it down is all thats needed and it could go from 10% fights lost to flinch to 1%

[mint token]

I like how the game fills a niche between arcade and hardcore shooters. I keep seeing people say "the game needs to decide what kind of FPS it is" but what about those of us who think that it already has a perfectly valid identity?

[jade crater]

aim punch is good, it just needs to be implemented differently. Bullet damage and velocity should play a larger role than the weapon you're carrying.

[tiny glacier]

I love the game currently, I would nnot want it to go into the more milsim or arcadey shooters.

There are some annoying elements, but this game is the most fun FPS ive played in a while

[fair summit]

yes it should be implemented differently. implemented into the trash can.

[jade crater]

you don't want snipers with out aimpunhc

[mint token]

Yeah. I've suggested earlier that they could start with making flinch based on damage taken, which would mostly automatically make SMGs and long range shots create less flinch.

Aim flinch prevents the game's (and most FPS's) gunplay from being a pure DPS race.

[carmine cipher]

It's a frustrating and unfun mechanic considering the time to kill is so low. It changes a lot of gun fights into a RNG popcorn fest and gives a heavy advantage to high rate of fire weapons. A mechanic like this should only really exist to deter or suppress extremely long range weapons like snipers. I feel like a lot of weapons like SMGs wouldn't feel overpowered if aim punch was removed from the game (without adjusting any stats); popcorning at close range to 100mish engagements is what makes them so effective - basically stunlocking lower rate of fire players. Aim punch also serves to further the advantage of someone who already has an advantage (aka the person who already fired first). It's just an anti fun mechanic with very few upsides outside of niche balancing aspects like countering snipers.

[fair summit]

no FPS game is a pure DPS race lol

[jade crater]

That's both more intuitive and a better starting place for balance. i believe we'll get some iteration of that, assuming it isn't too hard on the servers for whatever reason.

[fair summit]

the whole "flinch prevents DPS racing" argument i've seen put forth is absolutely bizarre

the only situation where you have a "pure DPS race" is when two people engage each other at the exact same time, with the exact same accuracy

which... doesn't happen in 99.99999999999% of times

[mint token]

It would just be on the local client to simulate the flinch based on the damage values the server already sends to each client.

[jade crater]

i would assume the value's would be easily retreivable, but i duno, not my game.

[mint token]

But the whole argument against aim flinch mainly applies to situations where both parties involved are shooting at each other at the same time.

[fair summit]

not really

aim flinch doesn't make sense across literally the entire game

not just when two enemies are engaging each other at the same time lol

it is most impactful when two enemies are shooting each other at the same time

[mint token]

When you're in combat and get shot, the thing you should do is take cover and reposition, or otherwise reassess your options. Aim flinch discourages the "keep standing there and shooting" option. There needs to be a consequence for damage beyond health number goes down.

[flint maple]

This doesn't matter because of how online netcode works in modern games (favour the shooter). Trying to move into cover instead of firing back will usually result in you dying around the corner on your client. Better to 50/50 and try and aim duel.

[jade crater]

I think there is a bias towards disliking aimpunch because you can't remember all the times you benefited from it, but you can remember all the times when it killed you.

[fair summit]

yes, and because it's a shit mechanic

i'll purposely abuse it while it's in the game though

[jade crater]

without aimpunch you'll get domed from 50m constantly, sounds like a bad time

[flint maple]

It's because it feels RNG lol. Sometimes I land a solid 3 chest shots on someone...thr flick to me and I get flinched so hard I lose.

[carmine cipher]

I know when I benefit from it - whenever I use high rate of fire weapons and dominate stun locking people with assault rifles. It's still a shit mechanic lol

[fair summit]

maybe don't stand still

[fair summit]

exactly

someone takes a shot at me with a low rpm gun

i can confidently turn around and hose him to death

[jade crater]

you move real slow while ads, good luck returning fire against a sniper rifle without aimpunch

[fair summit]

knowing he can't hit me for shit

[jade crater]

there's a difference between removing it altogether and tweaking it so it's not so overpowered.

[carmine cipher]

snipers receiving aim punch is about the only scenario where it makes sense to have aim punch; the rest of the game shouldn't suffer for it

[fair summit]

without aim punch it just comes down to the skill level of the two players. simple as that. if he's a good shot and nails me in the head, then fair enough. otherwise, i kill him. 🤷

[jade crater]

the only reason it's difficult to deal with an ar or smg coming towards you is the aimpunch. The second you start moving slowly by raising your weapon, the cross hair goes on your head. Aimpunch should be toned down massively on low/medium range weapons, but it shouldn't be completely removed.

[fair summit]

lol you're assuming that this sniper is going to nail me in the head instantly

i can assure you the average player is nowhere near good enough to do that

[carmine cipher]

what do you believe aim punch adds to gunfights or the gameplay in close to medium range engagements? it shouldn't be just about aim and landing your shots consistently?

[jade crater]

bro if someone sees you walking towards them and you can't hit them in the head when they start aimiung, then you're bad

[mint token]

This feels like people saying the solution to "SMGs cause disproportionate flinch compared to ARs and LMGs" is "remove flinch entirely".

[fair summit]

what?

i'm talking about the average player

[carmine cipher]

it's a major element of the current SMG balancing problems, but flinch should still be removed entirely because it's an unfun mechanic that adds nothing to the game other than RNG and frustration imo

[flint maple]

Its because flinch depends on the gun YOU have equippdd

[fair summit]

most dudes in this game aren't going to reliably land consistent headshots with bolties lol

but somehow you wanted to turn this conversation into "hurr durr you have skill issues"

[jade crater]

i am an average player, it's not hard to hit a slow moving target with a gun with high velocity.

[fair summit]

if that was the case, i should die to snipers way more often

[jade crater]

or maybe you don't, because aim punch

[fair summit]

talking about situations where i'm caught off guard obviously

did i really need to spell that out?

[mint token]

I'm fully aware, and I agree that this needs to change.

[fair summit]

i'd say the vast majority of my sniper deaths come when i'm unaware of the sniper

in which case, aim punch wouldn't have saved me anyway

the fact is that aim punch doesn't do shit in the vast majority of engagements

besides be annoying

[jade crater]

the vast majority of deaths i recieve as a sniper is from aimpunch

[fair summit]

dw, you prob would've died anyway

regardless of aim punch

[mint token]

Why do you assume that? Removing aim punch would allow Orphan to just dome the enemy regardless of being shot at.

[jade crater]

yea i disagree, it's not hard to hit a target at 30m with a canted sight

[carmine cipher]

you can leave flinching on snipers

[mint token]

And making aim punch only apply to snipers is an awful suggestion. It's artificially inconsistent.

[fair summit]

because he's claiming to be an average player, and i've seen how the average player snipes lmao

[fair summit]

this i agree with

[carmine cipher]

it's where balance and the gameplay makes sense, the only instance of the mechanic having a function to keep extreme 1 shot weapons in check from counter fire. Every other gun in the game doesn't make sense to have it as a mechanic with the TTK being so low

[fair summit]

though if outright removal is not an option, having it only apply to boltie snipers would be my next pick

DMRs are dogshit and don't need to be any worse than they already are

[carmine cipher]

and if you want consistency sure, just remove the mechanic entirely please lol

[mint token]

I'm imagining an average firefight with no aim flinch, and it looks awful.

Feels really cheap.

[carmine cipher]

feels cheap? you mean just simply being able to aim and land shots based on skill? what? right now it feels cheap, your reticul randomly gets popcorned and you coin flip a portion of gunfights. You also are basically boned if you're in a disadvantaged situation

aim punch is a mechanic to try and lessen the gap between good players/aimers and bad players/aimers

[mint token]

You also are basically boned if you're in a disadvantaged situation
...yessssss. Is there something I'm missing here?

[jade crater]

i think he means the feedback you recieve from getting hit. If theres no camera motion it feels less polished.

[mint token]

It's not like I want aim flinch to stay purely for cinematic flair

[carmine cipher]

why exactly do you feel that you need more of an advantage if you initiated the jump on someone? because you missed a portion of your shots and prefer your opponent to be semi stunlocked in returning fire?

[jade crater]

i think one of the side effects of removing aimpunch would also increase the prevalence of medics even further, because any fight you win, you're more liable to take damage.

[carmine cipher]

then remove the trash mechanic and balance the medic differently? i don't see that as an excuse to keep a frustrating mechanic

[mint token]

I'm struggling to fully parse the middle part of this message.

[carmine cipher]

not much to read into, why do you feel that you need a further advantage when you already have an advantage other than to compensate for bad players?

personally, if i jump someone... that's enough of an advantage, i don't see why i need the aim punch mechanic kept around to press that further lol

[fair summit]

exactly, aim punch is a total crutch mechanic

[mint token]

Because this game isn't a twitch shooter. You shouldn't be relying on just your reflexes and flick aiming to win fights.

[jade crater]

i don't like the current implementation of aimpunch. but is rubberbanding a bad thing in casual games? what if it's slight? what does it do for the playerbase? it's also not fun to be a new/bad player and get your shit pushed in constantly when you did things right but someone who no-life's fps can flick onto your skull.

[carmine cipher]

i don't think we'll see eye to eye on this. This is probably the most unfun thing about battlebit currently according to all my friends who are between bad and great players at FPS. Almost every single one of them have complained about the cheesey RNG popcorn clown fiesta nature of gunfights.

[mint token]

Siorsky, I saw you reply to the picture of the "defense onion" with a laughing emoji. Are you aware that despite its silly appearance, it's a popular depiction of how to act in combat?

[carmine cipher]

it's more frustrating for someone trying to learn and practice their aim when they're bad at FPS games just to have it juggle around all over the place

[haughty isle]

I think the idea of the mechanic is fine, but different weapon types really need much different values. I think DMRs and LMGs should have a noticable amount, but SMGs should have barely any. Especially with their rate of fire

[cloud marten]

idk the only egregious aimpunch has been from smgs from my experience

[fair summit]

i know, i see it a lot in milsim communities. just thought you were trying too hard given how casual the game is 🙂

[mint token]

You're looking at it from the wrong direction. Being able to aim at and shoot an enemy who is shooting you and causing aim flinch isn't a "skill to develop". It's a last resort; an act of desperation.

The more relevant skills are situational awareness, sightlines, and awareness and use of cover.

[fair summit]

yes i agree, so why include a pointless mechanic

like flinch

[pastel shore]

It's not... At all. Cc/loss of control is something that takes away your control, like changing sens, moving your camera without your input, or preventing you from moving your camera. Flashbang does none of that...

[fair summit]

it doesn't matter most of the time, and when it does, it's usually just annoying. 🙂

[mint token]

It's not pointless; it's a penalty for playing the game in a suboptimal way.

Playing badly, if you will.

[cloud marten]

like im not terribly upset when i get aimpunched in general EXCEPT from smgs because they can 180 me even when i get the jump on them and aimpunch me to miss my shots

[fair summit]

let's be real. it's impossible to be 100% aware of all sightlines all the time in this game. even the best players will have issues with this. if you get caught with your pants down, sure, that means you fucked up.

[flint maple]

Tbh it's very easy. We're already starting to see medium scope players dominating under 300m. There is extremely low lead time and no drop. Mosy snipers are roleplaying and that's why it's not a big problem. Same with light/no armor movement. Most players aren't using it yet.

[mint token]

I'm making these statements under the assumption that aim flinch can and will be adjusted to values that make sense for the damage source, because suggesting its complete removal is unthinkable.

[fair summit]

doesn't mean there should also be another mechanic that artificially prevents you from trying to turn the tables

[fair summit]

unthinkable, i'm literally just thinking how great it'd be to remove it entirely rn

[mint token]

Ah yes, having your ability to aim hindered when shot is "artificial".

[jade crater]

Massive weapon sway is moving your camera without input? The outcome is the same as forcing your aim to jump around, its uncontrolled movement. Again, my point was 'feels bad' doesn't equate to 'is bad'. And if the outcomes are similiar (inability to return fire) then the methods are less relevant. I mean, does barbed wire slowing movement fall into that category? Bad mechanic because it impedes or alters outcomes of inputs? I think we largely agree, just different intepretations of language.

[fair summit]

is it not? the game physically prevents you from aiming accurately in return lol

and quite frankly

[flint maple]

Go try bf2042 to confirm that opinion

[mint token]

Yes, I'd imagine that most people would have trouble keeping a bead on target when shot.

[fair summit]

bruh, 2042 isn't worth the bandwidth it takes to download

so no, i'm not going to go try 2042 lol

[flint maple]

It has no flinch and gunplay/balance is horrible because it. Snipers are busted

[fair summit]

maybe they should've have released a railgun and given medpacks to snipers

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/905916982145220658.webp?size=48&name=galaxy_brain&quality=lossless

what could go wrong

[cloud marten]

I dont think I've lost a ton of fights purely due to aimpunch save for some smgs

[fair summit]

bc most of the time, it doesn't even matter

[cloud marten]

usually if i lose a fight its due to other factors

[green dragon]

lmao my game freezes for like a sec because of aim punch

[carmine cipher]

I still don't get why people think it can't be exclusive to just snipers. Let everyone else have their fun and use flinch to keep snipers in check - job done

[mint token]

So, it doesn't matter most of the time, except for, according to you, some personally important situations, like getting shot first.

[cloud marten]

if ya get shot your aim gets moved makes sense

its not rocket science

[fair summit]

mfer acting like he has never been the one to get shot at first

[carmine cipher]

actually, it has very little to do with flinch and moreso that weapons are pretty much dead accurate across gun types

[cloud marten]

the logic of aimpunch is very sound, gameplay can be debatable, but I think its fine

[flint maple]

It'a more the fact that fast TTK guns and low recoil guns just dominate even more without flinch. It also means whoever starts with more hp usually wins. My favorite part of games like CSGO and Hunt is that I can still wipe a squad with a sliver of health if I aim,move and position well.

[fair summit]

anybody who always gets the drop on an enemy in every engagement needs to be sent to the lawyer discord for review

smells like esp

[mint token]

I have very much felt the impact that flinch has on me, I am also aware of how it affects enemies. Don't insult me.

[fair summit]

where is the insult?

[carmine cipher]

or someone hard camping one direction for the entire match in some narnia part of the map

[fair summit]

you're the one claiming that getting shot first is something personal to me

as if that never happens to you 🤡

you can be the best player in the world

and still have someone get the drop on you on occasion

[mint token]

Calling me a "mfer", assuming that I'm unaware of the times I've been shot first, your constant use of that stupid laughing emoji.

[fair summit]

there's no way to avoid it, aside from esp

[pastel shore]

Idk what you're trying to argue anymore. You're just throwing out completely random bullshit at this point.

[mint token]

Yeah that's it. I'm not discussing game balance with this child.

[carmine cipher]

engaging gameplay, if you drop on someone first - they die almost guaranteed, if you get dropped on - you die almost guaranteed. Riveting

[fair summit]

me finding shit funny is not insulting you. being a mfer is a compliment if anything. and you're the one implying that you don't get shot at first.

so maybe stop being so sensitive?

[mint token]

I've blocked you dude. You're insufferable to talk to.

[cloud marten]

i mean to be fair...

[fair summit]

oh no! anyway

[mint token]

Why do you talk like this is a weird rule of thumb?

[fair summit]

i'm not the one trying to act like i'm the best fucking player in the world

"oh you've been shot at first before?" sounds like a you issue

[carmine cipher]

because you don't need to press that advantage to make it nearly guaranteed lol - it's called good game design to let people counter if the other player messes up. Not reward the player who messed up after having an advantage to begin with

[fair summit]

don't bother

dude doesn't understand the concept

TTK in this game is so insanely short

the attacker has a massive advantage over a defender

if the attacker fucks it up, the defender should have the opportunity to turn the tables

[jade crater]

You said loss of control is avoided at all costs. I'm pointing out the loss of input(vision) results in a loss of control aswell. Preforming actions based on feedback without feedback is without control. I don't know many blind people who can control a vehicle well. but some of us struggle with langauge, its all good.

[fair summit]

rather than have a crutch mechanic save the attacker from his own skill issue

basic concept, but dude doesn't get it 🤷

[mint token]

The game wants to reward people who take advantage of good positioning and stealth to gain an advantage over their enemies. Firefights aren't supposed to be purely determined by who can point and click faster. Despite thoughts on the contrary, this is not an unusual design decision.

There's a reason nearly every FPS on the market today has it. Heck even TF2 has light aim flinch.

[carmine cipher]

god forbid if players could just aim and shoot at each other with nothing tossing their screen around. The horror

[mint token]

Go play Quake then.

[fair summit]

this shit keep @mint token up at night

imagine a world without aim punch!

[carmine cipher]

no shit lol, that's why i said it why do you need a mechanic that presses the advantage further? i just don't understand the perspective of making the gameplay worse for it

you already have the positional advantage or the element of surprise. Why do you need another advantage stacked on top of that?

[pastel shore]

Yea, you do. Because you responded with a ton of shit that has nothing to do with the topic and doesn't even counter anything I've said. Flashbang aren't cc, you don't lose any control. I've already made this clear. I don't know why you brought up a bunch of random irrelevant bullshit. I explained it extremely clearly.

[mint token]

Without aim flinch, the one being attacked could be at an advantage according to their aim speed and gun's DPS. Nothing more. There wouldn't really be any other factors determining the outcome.

This isn't always what a game aims to accomplish with combat.

[jade crater]

says the guy who started responding to a conversation i was having with another person. I know language is difficult for some of us, it's fine. Try to stop being so obsessed with me. =]

[fair summit]

like i said, he just can't understand the concept @carmine cipher

[carmine cipher]

it would allow assault rifle players to beam smgs at their intended distances instead of being popcorned laser beamed to death

removing flinch would literally be an overnight massive buff to assault rifles and DMRs

[fleet pond]

Meanwhile, in scenarios where you hit a target first and he still manages to get 1 bullet in on you to flinch you just enough to send you off while he stays on target with his flinch. Very rewarding

[carmine cipher]

have you unlocked the p90? it's a flinching clown fiesta to use

[mint token]

I've already agreed that SMGs should cause less aim flinch, but I'm arguing against its complete removal.

[carmine cipher]

why even have it in general at that point? lmao

what's the purpose at that point?

[mint token]

For the reasons I've already stated.

[pastel shore]

It's so that he has an advantage over a class of weapon he doesn't like

[fleet pond]

A bizarre idea that you aren't able to secure a kill on a player in a low TTK game... while it already messes you up if that player you get the drop on gets 1 bullet off on you

[jade crater]

ery'budy and their dog knows smg's are a problem

[mint token]

I've already touched on game design. I've already explained the reasons why aim flinch exists in most FPS games. The arguments against it so far have been "I want to be able to just aim and shoot at my enemy without having to worry about anything else". I'm sorry I'm not against mechanics that add just a little more depth to combat.

[mint token]

What are you talking about?

[rich iris]

there's no depth. you sometimes just lose because the game says you deserve to

why would you want that?

[fleet pond]

There is no depth to an RNG diceroll that decides gunfights where two players hit each other at the same time

[mint token]

I let myself get shot. There are consequences beyond "lose health".

[fierce lake]

I can't see any depth on aim flinch either

[rich iris]

lets just add weapon jamming to all automatic weapons, it's the same "lol so random you lose now" but now my screen doesn't jump around randomly

[merry prairie]

Flinch recieved should be a thing by zoomed in snipers, regardless of the weapon hitting them

Flinch given should be much reduced on SMGs, ARs and Carbines

Flinch given should stay how it is or be slightly increased with DMRS and LMGs

[fierce lake]

You get shot in this game you're almost dead already, that's a pretty big consequence

[final olive]

Dear god do not make DMRs even worse than they already are

[merry prairie]

how to i change my nickname

[fair summit]

fr fr

[carmine cipher]

if you fire your weapon too quickly; it will overheat and your screen shall randomly shake while trying to fire it in that state; that should add another layer of depth and fun to the gunfights

[merry prairie]

sorry for confusion "flinch given" is flinch when the DMR hits an enemy. english not first language

[fair summit]

rip DMRs

[rich iris]

genius.

[fair summit]

you never lived

[rich iris]

can we uncap dmr firerate so i can jitter click the mk14 at lightspeed to outdps the vector?

[final olive]

Oh, I thought you meant DMR users should get flinched even HARDER than they already are. Despite them being the gun already most negativly affected by flinch imo

[rich iris]

i'd swap classes in a heartbeat for rapidfire dmr's

[pastel shore]

What about booby trapped ammo? 1 bullet in one of your mags explodes when you attempt to shoot it, killing you instantly.

[rich iris]

this is it. the pinnacle of game design

[mint token]

Use cover, minimize enemy lines of sight to you, stay aware of your surroundings. That's how you avoid getting aim flinch.

[pastel shore]

See!? This punishes vector users. More bullets, more chance to explode!!!!

[carmine cipher]

yeah, that would add a layer of depth. you need to check your mags before every gun fight - this will balance players running around too fast from gunfight to gunfight with no penalty

[flint maple]

That's a TTK and netcode problem

[fleet pond]

That you even type something like that out.. lmao

[carmine cipher]

you can make any stupid mechanic sound like it adds depth

[pastel shore]

My god dude have a bit of self awareness.. Aim punch topic is relevant after all those things fail, when you are in an actual gunfight...

[flint maple]

Tbh he's right but the game has a problem where LA/SMG/Medic plays a completely different game than other classes

[carmine cipher]

apparently two players are never aware of each others' presence and don't engage in a somewhat equal exchange

[rich iris]

i already flanked and killed 4 people, but i deserve to lose to the 5th guy because 1 random bullet sent my aim to the moon, purely outskilled

[pastel shore]

Like obviously everyone is trying to avoid getting shot, jackass.

[fleet pond]

Not everything has to do with deathmatch medics... and no, he's not.

[carmine cipher]

let us have a coin flip to decide who gets screwed over by aim flinch the most

[rich iris]

i'd gif response some of you but this isn't the channel for that

[merry prairie]

also if flinch had some rhyme or reason, but it can bounce port, starboard, straight up or any combination of those it seems

[mint token]

When I'm "in an actual gunfight" and I get shot and get my aim thrown off, I take cover most of the time. I reposition, or I throw out a grenade, or something else that swings the balance in my favor. "Stand there and keep trying to shoot your enemy" is not your only option in combat.

[rich iris]

no you dont. you instantly die before you can react unless you were already bailing out

i hate liars

[mint token]

Get a faster reaction time.

[rich iris]

how fast is yours?

[pastel shore]

Stop fucking bullshitting honestly it's getting old.

Don't pretend you haven't ever been in a fucking gunfight where you trade damage with an enemy. Seriously this is actually getting irritating, you realize no one is falling for your bullshit, right?

[carmine cipher]

he's playing arma 3, wrong discord

[fleet pond]

It's good to see that the only guy that defends aimpunch like it's a dayjob is also disingenuous beyond belief

[mint token]

I've traded damage with enemies plenty of times. It's not an ideal situation for either of us.

[rich iris]

man better have sub 170 ms reaction time talkin about "get faster"

[jade crater]

you guys are incapable of disagreeing without ad hominems huh? how old are yall?

[fleet pond]

Yeah, it's not ideal because you're both rolling dice at that point

[pastel shore]

Cool. THAT'S WHERE THE TOPIC STARTS. so stop with your stupid fucking DoNt gEt HiT tAkE CoVeR crap

[merry prairie]

okay man, if this works, it speaks more to the incompetence of the person shooting you.

Or that you're playing a corner/head glitching and can just prone out of a rough situation

[jade crater]

I have a great therapist incase any of you need someone to talk to

[rich iris]

i wish proning out let me escape a bad situation, i die sometimes up to a half second after entering cover

[mint token]

No, I fire out of a window or from some other minimally exposed position. I don't even know if "head glitching" is possible in this game.

[fleet pond]

disagreeing isn't the same as being a disingenuous know-it-all

[merry prairie]

the guy specifically mentioned his reaction time/telling others to get faster.

idk how "to the man" it is to call the guy out for his personal bullshit

[pastel shore]

If you have arguments for or against aim punch, in that case, go ahead. But leave the other crap out of it, that's not helping your case and isn't relevant to the aim punch mechanic at all.

[rich iris]

"head glitching" has become interchangable for "playing any position where all that's visible of you is the head" regardless of whether the head hitbox is glitched in that game

[flint maple]

I do think it's a problem though that you can literally jump around a corner, get shot and win the aim duel. I just play the game like I have no brain and it puts me in the top 5 the majority of my games

[jade crater]

what does that have to do with the hostility? it's wild.

[pastel shore]

Why is that a problem? If you are faster and better, thatll work in any fps. That's kind of just how the fps genre works.

[mint token]

Yeah I worded that badly. I'm sorry, really.

What I mean is that you start to get a feel for when you're going to take damage. When I first trade shots with an enemy on a head-on 1v1 engagement, I'm already anticipating that I'm going to take damage. I look for and move towards cover at the same time that I engage them. It's not so much reaction time as it is predictive action.

[merry prairie]

you should stream a couple games sometime

[pastel shore]

Everyone already does that. Aim punch is relevant after that, when you are trading fire, which will always happen in game at some point.

It is literally not possible to play the game in a way that prevents trading.

That is when aim punch matters.

[rich iris]

yeah some of us are playing aggressively and that means, sometimes, cover isn't an option and you just have to win the aim duel. and it feels like total trash to lose a duel where the outcome was decided by your aim going to the moon

[cloud marten]

Man yall be dogpiling this poor dude

[fleet pond]

Yes, welcome to playing an FPS game. We all think about cover when we are shooting/getting shot at. Good to see you've arrived here with the rest of us.

[rich iris]

there's enough random problems with the hitreg as is without aim punch. i had a guy earlier was close enough all i could see in my red dot was him and i got 0 hit reg for 15 bullets and then i died

[flint maple]

Because this game is supposed to require more tactics. Lool at the game development and you'll realize it's taken a hard turn into CoD territory. Also many FPS are not like that. Go play brainless in CS GO,Arma,Hunt,Squad etc. If there waa no aim punch it would punish people trying to play slow and tactical even more than the game already does.

[jade crater]

wait for the milsim mode

[cloud marten]

You have to admit Walk you are kinda biased in favor of SMGs

[carmine cipher]

COD has aim punch

so the console players can stay locked on with their controller aim bots while pc players get juggled around

[pastel shore]

Why? This game is arcade with up to 127 players on the field and literally clown physics.

You can apply strategy, if you want, but you don't need too. Hell, I play squad the same way when I used to play it. Literally solo wiped squads and solo took down fobs by playing aggro.

Thats just an fps thing.

[carmine cipher]

also, did you just call csgo brainless? can you scream stuck in silver any harder?

[fleet pond]

ironically enough the players that are fighting the SMG would have the biggest benefit from no aimpunch. the SMG medics don't wear armor and they have to slow down from a sprint to shoot you. weird to see them coming to the defense of it for nonsense reasonings

if your aim wasn't disrupted you could just bodyshot them two or three times and they instantly die

[rich iris]

especially when the number one complaint is the vector being overpowered and the vector's RoF is interacting oddly with aim punch

[cloud marten]

its more so that SMG users dont really suffer from getting aimpunched, they shoot many bullets anyhows and they're the ones giving aimpunch

[mint token]

Wouldn't the SMG users be the ones benefitting from no flinch because it would be easier for them to beam you down with their high DPS?

[cloud marten]

you're not that concerned about being super accurate from aimpunched

where as if you miss a shot with an AR or DMR from aimpunch, it hurts more

[fleet pond]

SMG users do get aimpunched... the idea that you'd even say something like that considering they have to hit more bullets with each kill just means they're going to be effected by it even more when it does effect them

[rich iris]

the ttk isn't that far apart between ar/smg, the smg is just always going to inflict more aim punch

[pastel shore]

No. The ars and other guns beat smgs if you go for headshots. Aim punch prevents you from fighting against smgs, especially when it comes to headshots.

There's a half dozen guns that kill faster than vector VS 100 hp, and even more if you throw in a hs or two.

[cloud marten]

SMG users are affected by aimpunch key word being not as much as other weapon types (alot of other factors, but this is in general)

[flint maple]

It has straight vertical aimpunch that helps you land headshots and AA that helps you stay stuck on targets through stuns,flashes and flnch.

[mint token]

I just want people to try adjusted "fair" flinch before calling for its complete removal.

[rich iris]

so then you've answered your own question? smg users are less affected so it so it's a buff to the other weapon archetypes?

[flint maple]

If you play squad the same was as this game you must be playing againsy NPC yo not get constantly picked off...

[cloud marten]

removing aimpunch as a nerf to SMGs isnt why I'm defending aimpunch

[pastel shore]

Bro. Squad is literally NOTHING but npcs...its the most casual fps game on the market. I can skill gap those old geezers by slapping my dick on the keyboard

[modern coral]

You mean. . . the playtest? 🤣😂😭🥹

[fair summit]

pezzo in shambles 😭

[modern coral]

The playtest was wild.

[cloud marten]

yall are rude

[modern coral]

It had decent leveling, more viable weapons, and limitless mines.

[pastel shore]

Ha yea idk if people realize the playtests didn't have this aim punch. The only problem then were snipers

[modern coral]

and no aimpunch.

[flint maple]

How old are you? If you're still a kid this conversation would make a loy more sense.

[modern coral]

Milsims are pretty skilless tbh.

[pastel shore]

I'm 32. And yes, I absolutely stomped squad lobbies, by playing aggro. I got over 150 kills in some. I haven't played since the movement update, though, cus the game plays horrible now.

Thats just the fps genre. Skill gaps are huge. If you have skill gap the enemy, there's nothing wrong with playing aggro. Against similar skilled players you have to be smarter. But it's not a problem that you can play aggressive if you have the skills, I don't know why you think it would be.

[jade crater]

BRRRRP BRRRRP GOD GAMER ALERT BRRRRPPP

[normal sluice]

I'm sure this has already been said but my 2c anyway.
Don't remove aimpunch. Reduce the effect entirely around 50%-70%. It should let you know you're hit but also reward first shooters. It's excessive right now. Other games do this effect well and there hasn't been one where I felt I lost fights because of it in the same frequency as this game. Base it on weapon class or even bullet caliber.
---------------------Generally--------------------
PDW/SMG= super low Pistol=low AR=mid LMG=mid DMR=high Sniper=high

[modern coral]

I'm gonna be honest here, I'm fine with aimpunch. . . as long as SMGs cause the highest amount towards enemies.

At the very least, holding a light gun should mean you have less flinch.

[rich iris]

he's out of line, but he's right

[final olive]

and a heavy gun should mean less recoil but that isn't how the game works :P

[rich iris]

(please remove aim punch)

[fleet pond]

aim punch is good because... it just is okay?

[cloud marten]

I can agree with this sentiment

it should def vary based on gun class

[modern coral]

No, they need to have more recoil cause they shoot larger calibers and at higher velocities than SMGs which means more force.

[final olive]

I mean they often shoot the same calibers as smaller lighter guns. M249 weighs 17lbs and shoots the same round as the M4 at 7lbs. M249 has more recoil somehow

[modern coral]

Really, this game needs hipfire run and gun smgs to be fun. Campier weapons need to be balanced by being more susceptible to aimpunch.

It's only natural really.

[pastel shore]

Having lmgs cause high flinch is a terrible idea. Support already has over 160 hp relative to other classes. You're asking for a massive ehp advantage, on top of guns forcing opponents to flinch. That is going to result Ina gross inbalance, especially because the lmgs are insanely strong, ex, the l86 has better dps than the vector. Like, come on.

[modern coral]

We could also have no aimpunch, but since you don't want that, there really is no other way.

[cloud marten]

hp is balanced by movement

[jade crater]

wow support high health is overpowered, better gun than vector too, that's why its the most picked class

[rich iris]

weapon balance has nothing to do with class balance

[cloud marten]

and you cant replenish the armor

[rich iris]

if medic's could take lmg's you can fucking bet they would

[modern coral]

You're going offtopic.

[flint maple]

If you're 32 how old do you think squad players are? 90? Lmao

[jade crater]

when a gun is only relegated to a single class, uhhh, ya it does

[final olive]

Medics would not give up 20% of thier movement speed to use an LMG, you are insane

[modern coral]

The topic here is aimpunch; not classes.

[pastel shore]

Thats not really important when two players are face to face shooting each other. When you are adsed, both of you are slow to begin with.

The only reason support isn't meta is because it can't heal it's own HP like medic.

[cloud marten]

Support isnt as bad as anyone says they are, but they arent exactly like top tier

[rich iris]

you're insane if you think every medic is playing adderal mode vector

[modern coral]

And we're all talking about why SMGs need to cause the highest aimpunch while getting the lowest.

[cloud marten]

well in that scenario the slower, tankier, more DPS specced class SHOULD WIN

[final olive]

If you want the low TTK guns you are playing SMG, so that is the direct competition to the L86. Not even support players bother with the L86 most of the time. It's low TTK is overshadowed by all the other aspects of the gun sucking.

[cloud marten]

but the faster nimbler class should be using mobility, if you're fighting on even ground you shouldnt win like ever

[pastel shore]

Yes, they do, already, in the current state of the game. So if you make lmgs aim punch more, but other guns less... What do you think is going to happen...?

[rich iris]

or using an AR and winning engagements outside of smg range with an extremely similar ttk

[fleet pond]

sucks that this feedback page doesn't accept clips, the suggestion tab is better

[rich iris]

i'd love to run an lmg sometimes and just hold down a street as a medic

[cloud marten]

eh, you can win SMG v Support from the front

[pastel shore]

You can upload to imgur and post as a link

[rich iris]

could literally make people pay the troll toll by holding down a street crossing

[modern coral]

So you agree with me that SMGs need to cause the highest aimpunch while taking the least aimpunch.

[jade crater]

so, change nothing?

[pastel shore]

Only if you skill gap them lol. Which is usually the case because good players tend to prefer medic so they can be more self reliant and reset after damage trades.

But if you pocket medic a good player on support they can do some serious work

[modern coral]

No, they need to create more aimpunch per hit.

[jade crater]

are you being sarcastic?

[pastel shore]

He is

[modern coral]

And they still get flinched the same as the rest, so that needs to be lowered.

[cloud marten]

eh you can just jump through them at close ranges, you cant count on pockets esp when you set up the situation as a 1v1

[fleet pond]

Try jumping through a player that is already shooting at you...

[modern coral]

No, as seen by the general consensus here, we clearly need aimpunch.

[cloud marten]

you are the mobile one, you choose the fight

[pastel shore]

Lol you won't jump through a good player like that, bro. You'll be dead too quick.

[cloud marten]

Its literally 2 different playstyles

[fleet pond]

What do you mean you choose the fight? Just hold LMB when they jump towards you...

[cloud marten]

you dont facetank in a straight line like an idiot

Off topic anyways

[pastel shore]

You don't need to tell me how to play, out of everyone here. I'm telling you against a good player you will be dead before you have a chance to do any of that. Point is just that lmgs shouldn't be flinching more than other guns because it'll cause a ridiculous imbalance when combined with the ehp supp has through exo armor.

Lmgs aim punch should be treated just like ars and smgs and w/e. They can't get special treatment

[tawdry edge]

smg users will put 6 bullets in the body of an lmg user before he is able to fire two shots. Can we really talk about 'imbalance' when an inherent imbalance between the classes/guns already exist?

[jade crater]

High RoF makes aimpunch machines. If you're keeping aimpunch, it should be scaled along with weapon damage or some other factor. RoF is balanced around weapon damage, having an additional benefit of aimpunch pushes them over the edge.

[flint maple]

Lol no they don't armor is basically useless vs smg and rifle because it barely changes the ttk

[modern coral]

As Pezzo has stated, none of us have any idea just how badly BattleBit would play out if it didn't have aimpunch because we only notice it when we're affected by it and not the enemy.

It's not like we have a year or two of experience of this game without this very necessary core mechanic.

[flint maple]

Then lets give LMG the same ADS speed and move speed of smg

[fleet pond]

Yeah, if we didn't have aimpunch we would have rewarding and enjoyable gunfights between two players that don't devolve into dice rolls

[rich iris]

honestly do it. uncap dmr's fire rate while we're at it

the guy carrying the LMG should be used to the weight, 0 slowdown

[modern coral]

I'd actually play support if that were the case.

[jade crater]

movespeed is king

[flint maple]

It would make rifles even worse when we have SMG and...bigger SMG haha

[mint token]

Giving Support a "flinch resistance" passive like how assault has those weapon handling buffs is something I've thought of

[rich iris]

rifles are already equal to or better than smg's, so nothing actually changes

[flint maple]

Lmaooo

[modern coral]

Coming from a background of fun skillfull arena shooters, I love these ideas. Keep 'em coming!

[rich iris]

fal, m4, ak15

[pastel shore]

One of the things I keep suggesting is a cool down on aim punch which normalizes that, so an smg wouldn't aim punch any more often than a slower firing weapon, like lmg.

Thats assuming some flinch is kept.

[modern coral]

Let's do it for ARs too.

[mint token]

I'm not a fan of a flinch cooldown, as it'll cause inconsistency when the attacking weapon's firerate is inevitably out of sync with the cooldown.

[modern coral]

Up the movement speed on every weapon. Remove damage fall-off completely, and let weapons be balanced around damage, RoF, velocity, recoil, and ammo.

[pastel shore]

I have no problem increasing ads speed slightly on the lmgs, to be more similar to ARs.

It'd be a bit silly, but much better than making them give more flinch than other guns.

[jade crater]

i think that'd work at close range, but at long range you're unlikely to follow up at the correct interval to throw a snipers aim off. if its 300ms cd like you suggested, you need to land another shot within 100-200ms or you're providing a sniper with a large window to re-center his shot, assuming there's no flinch buffer. so it shouldn't hve a cd vs snipers or a weapon that's scope, or whatever.

[mint token]

Increasing SMG damage falloff has been one of the main suggestions to balancing them, so I don't think that's a good idea to remove that.

[modern coral]

SMGs are already balanced at range by lower bullet velocities. If you get hit at range, you shouldn't have been so predictable.

[mint token]

Need to start simple (tie flinch to received damage/caliber) and build up from there if necessary (only apply it to certain weapons, cooldown, etc).

[pastel shore]

At longer ranges, 300 ms is pretty long. Ttk at longer ranges tends to be a lot longer because of recoil making bullets miss. A lot of people tap or burst fire for example, so even though you could only be aim punched once every 300 ms, thatll still happen with every burst or every other hit (once or twice per fight, at most) which is enough to throw off snipers but be much more manageable.

[mint token]

Damage falloff is to avoid situations such as SMGs countersniping bolt actions (who are often stationary or slowly moving and so not hard to hit)

[modern coral]

No, flinch needs to be tied to weapon handling. Light weapons get less flinch. Heavy weapons get more flinch.

[mint token]

What

[final olive]

so just buff SMG even more...

[modern coral]

That's what they get for camping.

[pastel shore]

In cqc that would absolutely result in only being aim punched once per fight, though, which I think is perfect if aim punch has to stay. That allows for micro adjustments, but doesn't give advantages to faster fire rate weapons. Botg players would be flinched once per fight and the person would be dead before the cd is gone.

I'd prefer no flinch but that would be a huge improvement right off the bat.

[modern coral]

Like if a player fails to kill someone with a 0 ttk weapon, they deserve to get punished.

[mint token]

Invisible, I appreciate your support of my previous arguments, but what the heck are you even talking about.

[modern coral]

Wait...

[pastel shore]

... Bro

[modern coral]

I feel bad.

[pastel shore]

I feel bad, too...

I'm gonna go sleep

[jade crater]

i was thinking 150m-300m, if an smg is peppering you at that range you take near no damage, if you have 500ms to recenter your shot, you should get em. that's ussually the range i find the aim punch to be annoying. I wouldn't mind your suggestion, it buffs recon lol.

[flint maple]

I barely see anyone using these guns bdcause they have way more horizontal recoil and bloom(accuracy) than an UMP,Vector or mp7 at 80m. SSG is only good rifle. Right now we have a goldilocks problem where smgs dominate under 100m and rifles feel pointless above 100m when you can snipe.

[pastel shore]

Well, that would be on the smg user for trying to take a fight at that distance with a sniper.

[jade crater]

ya, but like you said, the playtest snipers were op. Gnight. we can argue tomorrow lmao.

[tawdry edge]

remember, all the game's balance problems don't have to be fixed with aimpunch, they can be fixed through other ways, like introducing a suppression mechanic (just for one example)

[jade crater]

no suppersion in arcade mode plz

[glossy sequoia]

yeah generally the SMG user takes control of the engagement with their mobility. You only get to control them if they decided to go out into a open area with 0 cover

and depending on the map finding good 100m+ sightlines can be next to impossible

[flint maple]

This whole arcade and hardcore mode sound so dumb. The game was supposed to be a good combination of both. Instead we get 90% arcade mode. When they add hardcore..why would I play that instead of Hell Let Loose or Squad? For the arcase I could have saved money and played Roblox

[wild rover]

Tossing my two cents into the ring here, but I think a general reduction in the flinch strength combined with scaling flinch based on weapon type (or firerate, though they sometimes go hand in hand) would probably be best. Leave the full strength flinch for the eventual hardcore mode. I also think something that other people have mentioned in this thread that should be considered is having heavier armors having higher resistances to flinch. It logically tracks that a dude in exo armor isn't going to be bothered as much as someone with regular armor or less.

Outright removing aim punch entirely is, imo, a bit drastic. Toning it down a bit and/or tweaking how it works with certain weapons/weapon types just makes more sense.

[fickle cedar]

"Just dont get shot" literally asking the homeless to get a home moment, so much of these comments geez

[flint maple]

Tbh that'a how is it in most shooters lol. You don't normally try to trade shots

[fickle cedar]

In chaotic small maps like tensarown frugis with alot of cover and change in terrain, its easy to suddenly get jumped on from another angle

[carmine cipher]

most maps are fairly small and in 127vs127 this will happen regardless unless you play like a complete bush wookie

this isn't arma 3

[fickle cedar]

Like have u guys not seen some of the videos posted by people regarding this flinch mechanic? The player gets the drop first but loses out due to the enemy having the higher rpm gun which totally messes their aim.

Its just an issue of how flinch was determined by weapon rpm, not any other factor which makes smgs the better flinch weapon

[vast crag]

Do aim punch only when not ADS'd or scoped. So you still get the affect/effect without messing with people's aim. Better aim should win, not first shot.

[mint token]

But flinch is barely a factor when hipfiring

[stable gulch]

I think flinch should be removed

[flint maple]

Yeah I think the maps are not very good and need reworks. One of the biggest issues is bullet tracera might as well show the player on a radar with how they show half the enemies where you are.

[vapid ibex]

In my opinion, aim punch really only matters in situations like if you are using an AR and get the first few hits on someone who can return fire very quickly and they then hose you down with a high ROF weapon like an SMG and they out aim punch you and kill you. like if you're in a window and they're running more or less towards you and only spot you after you shoot. you got a bit of a drop on them but because of the high ROF, they win since you can't stay on target. This type of situation just feels bad.

if it's the same type of situaiton but no aim punch, then it does become more fair in that both people can actually know if they messed up their aim or not.

so short opinion from me is that i think aim punch should be removed

[vocal gorge]

remove it or change how it affects people. An SMG shouldn't make me shoot at the moon from 50m away, I'm carrying a heavy gun in heavy gear.
On the other hand, SMG's are light and should give you more aim punch when hit.

[still thistle]

Make flinch/aim punch only happen as an effect of dmr’s and lmgs. No other weapons. Gives the suppression use of both these weapons more viability and they are two class options that really suffer atm compared to others. This would solve current aim punch issues and also buff lacking weapons.

[warped palm]

Aim punch should only happen from unarmored headshots.

[winged leaf]

Just one person's opinion here:

I believe Aim Punch should be scaled alongside with the velocity stat of each gun and it should be universally toned down for body shots and increased for all headshots.

@placid dagger What do you disagree with.

[tulip dome]

I don't see the point in further punishing someone for getting headshotted. And velocity is a very arbitrary metric to scale things relative to.

[winged leaf]

I see.

[placid dagger]

The current flinch is already so bad people almost universally want it tuned down

increasing it for headshots seem like a bad idea

[winged leaf]

Ya I would say turn it down by like 75% to body shots and keep it the same for Headshots with all your feedbacks.

[placid dagger]

also muzzle velocities are not a good stat to balance flinch around

[winged leaf]

So range? How would you suggest it scales.

[placid dagger]

wdym range? you can do it on a case by case basis or something

[winged leaf]

Like the further away you are being engaged the less aim punch you receive. Maybe scale off dmg recieved too?

[placid dagger]

Damage received is a bit iffy since it would put all the power to rate of fire again. You can maybe do it based on weapon class and RoF etc. but normally I'd say just remove it for everyone except sniper rifles

that means only snipers would get flinched

[winged leaf]

Well not really, because it would be based on dmg received from each round not total damage. So if you get sprayed by a Vector at like 80+M you would barely feel it.

[placid dagger]

If you have two weapons that do the same damage per shot, the higher rate of fire one would decimate the other one's aim

[winged leaf]

Ah I see.

[green dragon]

lemme just get my screen frozen whenever I get hit and can't counter strafe cuz why not

flinch is fucking annoying

[zenith prairie]

Aim punch, right now, appears to rotate your gun such that the sight doesn’t appear to line up with where your bullets actually go. This makes it impossible to compensate for aim punch when it hits you.
I think it should be generally reduced, this behaviour should be minimised and lower base damage should mean less aim punch.

[lofty harbor]

so much fun

[fickle cedar]

Just dont get shot lmao /s

[placid dagger]

totally reactable btw /s

[lofty harbor]

yea big skill issue

[plush plover]

ever thought of just shooting the guy before he shoots at you

(sarcasm)

[lofty harbor]

damn youre right

[plush plover]

i think u wouldve won

just have to be precognitive

[lofty harbor]

i have to position my crosshair so the aimpunch punches my aim towards him

[placid dagger]

Precognition issue

[lofty harbor]

i hope you were kidding

[placid dagger]

dw I'm not a clown

[lofty harbor]

had the same discussion yesterday with someone who thought you could xd

[placid dagger]

I was there mate

gotta have that <100 ms reaction speed

[lofty harbor]

yea it comes with the right mindset

[naive nacelle]

I don't see the point for this mechanic to exist at all. It ruins the fun.

[wet field]

remove aim punch

[amber mango]

tbh the flinch is stupid, like i see why it should be there, but as sniper its impossible to kill a vector user for example... the other day i fought on salhan found a guy about 150 - 200 m out, turned out it was a vector user, i missed and he returned fire, while he was firing i couldnt use my scope because of the overdone flinch

[green dragon]

for snipers specifically that's working as intended, as said in here previously there used to be no flinch and it made snipers oppressive to any other style of play, punishing them for not being snipers

[stiff sparrow]

Remove it or maybe just keep it for hardcore modes, it sucks and makes gunplay more rng in every game it's in

[slim moon]

I think the team should remove aim punch, the TTK is so low anyway. If someone is good enough to recognize that you're shooting them and reacts, they should have a chance to kill you if you don't spray them down. Especially since the attacker will already have that first strike advantage

[green dragon]

If it gets removed mostly, I would prefer it remain on the bolt action snipers if nothing else. Maybe with stronger hit punch the farther away the recon got shot from.

It's already pretty difficult to play close range recon, with everything being a 2 shot kill, having less flinch up close wouldnt be too bad an idea i think

[placid dagger]

It's still a nerf to snipers and should stay that way. Snipers need a bit of extra weakness so that they can't just skill their way out of shit. Which is why flinch was implemented in the first place. They just implemented it on everyone and turned it up too much.

[slim moon]

I've played since before flinch was added to snipers. I've never thought anyone needed it since most snipers would still get rekt, anyone insane at sniping would still have to react very quickly, then if there were multiple people pushing them, they'd still end up dying. It makes sense why they added it though, I think if they're going to keep it on recon, it should be removed from every other class from the game, it's just not fun and doesn't make a lot of sense for the other classes.

[slate parrot]

Supposedly it's based on weapon type to receive so this should be possible

[atomic lance]

Flinch should be based on calibre and armor rating imo

[worthy rapids]

The weapon you're using should also matter too. SMGs should receive the most amount of flinch next to sniper rifles. LMGs should get almost no flinch at all, especially if they're crouched or prone

[green dragon]

No recoil LMG's = balanced

[solid thistle]

you miswrote "no gun should cause any considerable aim punch" mate

[peak gulch]

Do it by caliber (or damage) you get hit by but tone it down bt 50% across the board anyway

[pastel shore]

it's a common typo, the keys are like right next to each other

[solid thistle]

[humble nest]

tbh I'd have a lot of fun with an lmg that performed at least somewhat like a smg with a drum 🙂
Its already pretty rough trying to engage at range because the recoil is a bit much, I'd rather just rip handfuls of bee stings at people

[glacial cloak]

i understand the balancing motive but this makes no sense at all

[humble nest]

the heavier the gun the less affected it is by bullets I guess

[median hatch]

Flinch needs to be removed entirely, the idea that it belongs on LMGs is a poor substitute for buffing LMGs.

[humble nest]

just throwing it out there
do you really get shot (and survive) enough that flinch affects you that much? or is this just for when you feel unlucky when you draw up on a guy at the same time and his bullet hits first so the rest of yours miss

[median hatch]

lol this is some prime ragebaiting
as for me, it favors the attackers way too much. if you get jumped the combo of flinch and fast TTK almost guarantee you die.

[humble nest]

even as a fully exosuit dude firing through bunker slots it certainly feels like death comes fast enough that i'm not missing out on much, maybe one more bullet hits and we both die?

[glacial cloak]

i think the point is that without flinch you have a better chance of fighting back

[rich iris]

i've lost more than a handful of fights where i get first shot and somewhere in the middle of my spraydown i get flinched and die

not sure if it's something with hitreg or what but it feels really shitty

[humble nest]

do you play smaller games? I'm primarily on 127 and it feels like the netcode in games that size you're just instantly dead most of the time, not in an extended gunfight (1gb fiber internet)

[glacial cloak]

no i play only 127

personally its not like a major problem but the rng is kinda annoying sometimes

especially when using weapons like ak15

[rich iris]

^^

[glacial cloak]

apparently flinch is based on current gun recoil right now

[humble nest]

ah I got ya, It was sounding like it was an extremely common thing and i'm here like, 90+% of the time as soon as I see incoming fire I'm already dead server side so I've taken to not getting in stand up fights

[peak quiver]

I think flich should be removed from the game because you get no chance to counter the enemy due to flinch and also the TTK is too fast so the flinch is POINTLESS for this game. I think devs should completely remove it from game its just annoying.

[rich iris]

for me it's really not often i experience flinch at all (flank says you shoulda been watchin boi) but the few times i get in a straight up fight and lose just because i happened to get flinched at the wrong time (sometimes not even by the guy i'm actively killing) feels really awful

[humble nest]

gotcha

[glacial cloak]

i do think some sort of suppression mechanic should be added in place

but it shouldnt like affect your aim that much

[slate parrot]

Mg3

[humble nest]

Ive been playing 249 a lot lately, and yeah, a SMG with a drum is just straight better 95% of the time
some suppression stuff would be a godsend because I just wanna rip inaccurate fire in peoples general direction

the other lmg is just... no, lol

[rich iris]

the only issue with suppression is i feel like with 127 on each team you'd just be, suppressed all the time

[humble nest]

(limit it to lmgs imo)

(and stuff like humvee 50 cals)

[rich iris]

might work tbh

plus it could be another benefit for supports

which i def think supports need something extra (plus an ads/move speed buff)

[slate parrot]

It should in general be nerfed first and foremost

After that? Play around with making it better or worse on some guns

[humble nest]

like I said, been playing a lot of support, its not "that" bad, ADS is fine being chunky and slow
they need less move speed reduced when aimed up so they can move around a little bit while ADS'd, and IMO a bit chunkier armor

it is kind of a pain in the ass getting around as a fat boy but you're supposed to be a mid to backline base of fire and resupply, its fine
vetting merced while shooting through a letterbox in a 3 sandbag bunker before you really even return fire... you just cant get any more survivable than that and its still bad XD

[rich iris]

my only issue with bumping up the armor is that i've already had a support helmet tank an entire glock mag point blank when i was out of primary ammo (it popped off on the last shot)

[humble nest]

what really

[slate parrot]

I play light support, class could use better stats for drum mags, and smaller mags for lmgs. The guns are fine, the max speed is fine but it really has no flexibility

[humble nest]

oh, glock has 0 armor damage doesn't it?

[slate parrot]

Can't speak on armor tho, bc it lasts less than one fight and kills your movespeed wat too much

[rich iris]

no clue don't read that stats but it was a real "cmon bruh" moment for me

aint no way you eat a full auto pistol to the dome, the full mag mind you, without being dazed and confused

[slate parrot]

Pistols just suck tbh

[rich iris]

yeah true pistols kinda lackin

dont want them too much better than they are now though

[humble nest]

ive had pretty good luck with the 443, almost fully unlocked at this point

[slate parrot]

That gun weight is just insane even if you're getting 100 bullets

[rich iris]

i should prolly just bite the bullet and grind the glock to the extended mag

[humble nest]

yeah
compared to the drums on some smaller guns with 45-60, it can be a problem

I wish I could turn the rate of fire down a bit so its a bit more controllable and the 100 rnds go a bit farther, but w/e

bursts are fine the midrange scope shaking just can bother my eyes XD

but yeah, if suppression was a thing and lmg was just "i'm going to make you miss while I in turn also miss" I'd be okay with that XD

[slate parrot]

Does not feel like an even tradeoff when you're not using half the mag in an actual gunfight

[slate parrot]

It's kinda worth but you lose movement speed for the class. Ends up being great on medic and recon to get a free kill guaranteed

I really don't think it's a drum mag problem so much as where lmgs could shine

Maybe if bipods were still strong but they're not, we don't have suppression, 100 rounds is a non stat that calls for a ton of tradeoffs

[slate parrot]

That's what the últimax is for

Even if it's damage is kinda mid

[hot magnet]

Just to add to this feedback thread, I believe the Flinch/Aim Punch should be relative to the gun you are using.

So from lowest to highest amounts of Flinch should be something like so based on what is within the Soldier's Weapon stats menu.

01 - Pistols
02 - Automatic Pistols
03 - Submachine Guns
04 - Carbines
05 - Personal Defense Weapons
06 - Heavy Caliber Pistols
07 - Assault Rifles
08 - Light Support Rifles
09 - Marksman Rifles
10 - Light Machine Guns
11 - Sniper Rifles

Main reasoning behind the list above is that the higher the bullet caliber is, the more reason not to get shot by this weapon as it could leave the player vulnerable via flinching/aim punching. They would realize they are being shot at by a heavier weapon and being suppressed by that weapon could be dependent on how many rounds are being shot at the intended target.

IE: Low firing weapons (Like a L96 or a M110) would give lesser suppression than a M249 or L86A1. But being flinched by those weapons would still be at a high value based on the weapon's category.

Most (not all) the weapons' stats seem to be in the player's favor in terms of recoil and damage is concerned. Thus giving them the playstyle they wish to become at a given moment in the battlefield.

But by implementing something like it above, it would give support class the buff they heavily need right now to cause the enemy not to advance certain areas in fear of being shot at.

That way, any high firing weapon can still cause the intended suppression the game conveys, but it makes it easier to counter is the weapon category is lesser to what the player is using.

[humble nest]

yeesh, i'll have to unlock some bits for it, early on its a nightmare at least lol

[glossy sequoia]

Honestly remove it entirely, if snipers scoping and hitting you to fast in the head is the issue just add more sniper ADS time, if it's something like 0.3-0.4 that's most guns TTK time.

[pastel shore]

nah it's more in the 75-150m or so range, snipers need to be more vulnerable to return fire from ARs/LMGs/DMRs. Without flinch it's simply to easy to hit headshots in this game. Longer ADS won't really make a difference, you spend a ton of time hardscoped in this game, all that would do is take away the fun in closer range, which tbh isn't the where snipers are a problem at all.

if you hit your headshots in cqc, good for you, you deserve the kill. But at 75-150m it's incredibly easy to safely click on heads, and other weapons need to be able to challenge snipers at least a little bit in that range, which is impossible in this game if they don't flinch

[glossy sequoia]

To be fair I dont find snipers that big of a deal but thats mostly since you can be next to unheadshottable by abusing the fact even in the air you have full 100% air control momentum

If you know where they are just mad move your mouse around while holding space and watch the sniper cry

[flint maple]

People do this all the time to me. Still easy to quickly 2 tap to body also if you wait for then to land there is a CD on jump.

[glossy sequoia]

well if they're out in the open where they give you time to two bolt em... they're in a bad position? You could kill them with a M110

[flint maple]

Isn'r velocity on m110 way lower than snipers? Much harder for me to land shots with it ans track with the insane scope bounce. I feel like the m200 shoots as fast and has 2x the velocitg

Also 90% of the maps are open spaces lol

[glossy sequoia]

depends on the maps you play on 32 vs 32 is very cluttered

[flint maple]

Even that has tons of open spaces you get funneled in towards obj. I don't see the point in marksman rifles. 3 shot to chest a lot of the time, big first shot kick, med scope bounce is atrocious and tiny mags. Might as well just use Scar..same 3 hit potential.

[glossy sequoia]

but I find I rarely if ever die to a sniper and if I do its because I was being still
M110 is 2 shot
EBR has less recoil then the SCAR

but with hit punch most of those feel pretty bad to use because you want to make one good shot vs 2-3 shots that might get goofed by hit punch

Snipers having hit punch woudl be fine honestly as all you need is one shot, would rather it would just be vertical recoil though so it's not hope I can guess the right way to aim after hit market

[flint maple]

M112 is still a 3 shot to heay an exo

[glossy sequoia]

good thing the meta is going mach 10 in light or mach 9 in ranger

[flint maple]

I tried EBR in the range and it feels like a terrible rifle k.o

Imo*

[glossy sequoia]

I love the EBR, full auto at 100m-120m range with low recoil and recovery and not worthless up close

[flint maple]

I feel like if marksman rifles were good people would use them lol

[glossy sequoia]

Seen EBR, because it's a low recoil SCAR

[fickle cedar]

If their recoil.wasn't shit and flinch doesnt exist, they would be better

[glossy sequoia]

EBR is certainly usable

Also you have to get 300 kills with the M110 before it becomes good

imagine using a 2x recoil scar til 300 kills

[fickle cedar]

Because its unique i use it in mid range just cos its full auto

[flint maple]

Ebr has more recoil than a scar tho lol

[glossy sequoia]

SCAR has the wrong recoil

Horizontal

High Vertical recoil is easily solved, horizontal you have ot murder your vertical

1.6/2.1 vs 2.2/1

[flint maple]

Idk man trying to control vert recoil with the insane medium scope bounce seemed like an exercise in futility to me. Every situation I could use a MM rifle it feels like a rifle or sniper would be better.

Under 100m? If you can aim the rifle is always better. Above 100m? If you can aim the sniper is always better.

[glossy sequoia]

Have you set your ranged sensitivities?

if they're all 100 it's not equal

100 1x doesn't equal the same amount of sight movement as 100 2x it's more as if you have your sensitivity at 70~

3/4x not set is painful because it's like playing at 33~ sensitivity

Full autoing with an AUG/EBR is really easy even at the 100m mark

[flint maple]

Idk man trying to control vert recoil with the insane medium scope bounce seemed like an exercise in futility to me. Every situation I could use a MM rifle it feels like a rifle or sniper would be better.

Under 100m? If you can aim the rifle is always better. Above 100m? If you can aim the sniper is always better.

[mint token]

I would like to again ask that people give the idea of rebalanced flinch a chance before calling for its complete removal.

The process of game balance is more subtle and nuanced than "this mechanic personally affects me in a way I don't like so it needs to be eradicated entirely".

The entire game is designed around every other major mechanic.

[glossy sequoia]

low ttk games really dont need hit punch imo

you either land your hits and kill them in .3 seconds or less or miss your shots

the upper tier pro players of other fps clocked a bit above 150ms reaction time, average is around .2 or .25 so the second you shoot someone they have .05 to .1 of a second of them reacting to you firing at them before they're dead

If this game had a TTK that was longer then being melted then most people can process whats going on it would make sense

[green dragon]

I believe that trying to balance flinch around real life calibers is bad. This is a video game. So yes I think the flinch mechanic should be removed or lessened

[glossy sequoia]

All flinch really does is reward random hip fire spray and fast ROF guns, thats what it always does it turns the meta to fast rof gun being the meta guns because they get another reward then less penalized from missed shots

[green dragon]

At the end of the day this is a casual arcade game not a eSports super competitive game.

[glossy sequoia]

True but the point is .15 is the top tier of reaction times where most is .2 or .25

do we really need flinch when the MP7 and most smgs will erase someone before they can react

[green dragon]

Sorry I meant for my second post to be connect to my first one

[glossy sequoia]

Most AR's are around .2 to .3 so again you have 0.05 of a second to process info, flinch would again not save people
What it does right now is two people peak, react to seeing each other and fire that the higher ROF gun will win cause they get less aim punch

[flint maple]

If you look at most fps...the longer the ttk the less flinch is present if at all. With low TTK flinch is hard...this is to punish people with poor aim so it doesn'y become a shoot first and always win. You can't just spray transfer aim to a player with less health and win because you're being flinched. You need to move or die.

[royal sable]

Given the same rpm, flinch works in favour of whoever shoots first...

[flint maple]

That's a problem with the overall balance of the game. Mosg gamses balance high RPM guns with mobility/ADS nerfs(MG) ,recoil,damage drop off and absolute damage.

Without flinch high RPM guns still win...if it takes 5 bullets for me to kill you and I shoot 1200 RPM and it takes you 3 to kill me at 550 RPM I'm still going to win with the same HP.

[royal sable]

A player with worse aim who shoots first is going to bring down the accuracy of a player with better aim but shoots later.

[flint maple]

I mean that sounds realstic...don't be slow.

[royal sable]

And you said "with low ttk flinch is hard to punish people with poor aim so it doesn't become a shoot first and always win"😂

When in fact, flinch does the opposite, and rewards those who start shooting first.

[flint maple]

It doesnt though because if you hit me 2x first and then miss 3x I can shoot you and flinch you now. Flinch is bad in this game because it's based on the gun YOU have..

[royal sable]

Yeah I don't think you understand what I'm saying, or even what you've said.

[flint maple]

I do.

[zenith prairie]

I have heard two people claim this before, both of them did not have evidence for it. Do you have evidence for this claim?

[fleet pond]

i can post some stuff in the other aim punch discussion area that allows video if you want to see someone shooting first and losing a few fights

not even missing, just getting aim punched once after having a clear advantage and losing the fight because of it

not working as intended, armor does the job this mechanic tries to

[flint maple]

It literally happens to me sometimes it's why I stopped using the groza because someone with an smg takes less flinch whilr they groza gets insane flinch because of first shoy kick being tied to flinch

[fleet pond]

smg does not take less flinch

[flint maple]

Yes it does lol. Flinch is based of the weapon you have and not the weapon you get shot by. First shot kick heavily influences how strong flinch is.

[zenith prairie]

Again, where did you get this from?

[royal sable]

Mfw I was wasting my time talking to an actual fucking clown

[flint maple]

From testing it in game. Go ads and try to shoot back after getting hit with a DMR or MG and compare it to an SMG. I frequently get shot first and win with the Vector. Almost never with an AR or DMR.

[fleet pond]

sounds like the perk of a high RPM gun, not an imagined difference in flinch

[zenith prairie]

I am not precise enough to do that, and I don’t think you are either. People are not precise.
If you had two guns that were the same in terms of viability, and you measured a large number of wins/losses when this situation occurred, then I would take the claim seriously. This is not evidence to me.

[royal sable]

Bruh that's because vector with 1200 rpm throws the aim of whoever you're returning fire to shit lmao.

[flint maple]

But it doesnt have nearly the intesnsity when I also have an smg..

[flint maple]

So how am I able to return fire when I also have the vector? But not even a chance with a DMR?

[fleet pond]

flinch just seems to be random from my eyes, flinch probably seems more intense because the general horiz recoil + fsr is usually higher, not because of a flinch difference

DMR is a bad gun and a niche weapon

[zenith prairie]

A DMR relies on a small number of shots, so it’s going to be a lot harder to break their firing to begin with. And DMRs are considered underpowered in the community at large, the viability of the weapon generally will influence this.
Apparently, aim punch was first introduced to counter snipers so other guns could fight them at mid ranges; it’s designed to favour higher fire rates, but the way it currently works is not right.

[flint maple]

I'm purely talking about the strength of the aim punch. I can still aim wjth an smg while being aimpunched....with a DMR I might as well remove my hands from my mouse.

[royal sable]

Yeah... What scope lmao

Inb4 6x and be like "oh God there's so MUCH recoil"

[flint maple]

I only use medium scopes on sniper and DMR. I don't even reallu use the DMR though because they're bad

[zenith prairie]

Have you, or has anyone else, attempted to measure this accurately? There are many biases that influence perception on things like this

[flint maple]

I spent like 2 hours letting people shooy me first in 32v32 rush and testing diff weapons

[royal sable]

Put a med scope on a vector and compare flinch, and med scope on a dmr or any other gun lol

[zenith prairie]

But was there any formal approach to collecting data on this?

[royal sable]

You feel less flinch with smg compared to dmrs and other guns cuz you're probably using a short scope in the smg while a med/long scope for other shit.

[flint maple]

I mean I only use red dot on AR and it still feels way stronger

[flint maple]

You're goinf to have to fill that one in chief

[glossy sequoia]

Wait there is any other scope then SLIP? Its the only scope I use

[fierce stone]

I don't care about balancing walancing. If they wanna implement suppression mechanic, implement it properly. Just look at SQUAD's upcoming infantry overhaul or Hell Let Loose.

Aim punch is RNG and introduces randomness bullshit in every encounter.

I just had an encounter last night where I flanked 3 guy group.

Killed 1 guy, but while shooting another he shot me and the aim punch flicked my aim to the third guy's head headshotting him.

I would've killed only 2 guys of the 3 if there was no aim punch anyway but not randomly like this.

Or reduce it significantly. My gun did a effing half moon arc like some shounen battle manga/anime.

[glossy sequoia]

I much prefer suppression as all it does is make you a harder target to find, which only works well if they didn't know where you are hiding

[flint maple]

its quite dumb though if you just trade shots

this means whoever has more hp + the faster ttk weapon always wins

[glossy sequoia]

Finding good cover and positioning

You shouldn't be trading shots and let the better TTK weapon win, I mean that would be what it is right now with current balance SMG's

But current balance SMG's also are the least effected by hit punch and dish out the most hit punch

[flint maple]

lol if you shouldn't be trading shots...flinch shouldn't matter..accept your death

[pastel shore]

Bolties are better in every way than dmrs. Dmrs are more like ARs, in that that you have to expose yourself to do damage.

Bolt you can peek for 0.01s and get a kill via headshots.

M110 would be better in that specific example, if you are going for body shots, but in all other gameplay aspects bolts are just superior because they can stick behind cover except for the short time they take to shoot. That makes it more difficult to return fire against snipers, and also makes it so that when you do catch them exposed, you should be at an advantage even at 75-150m meters with ARs.

[pastel shore]

Don't forget that bb didn't have flinch for the playtests, that was added when the game was released. So we already know what that's like because we been play testing it like that forever.

The only reason flinch was added was for snipers, so as long as snipers can be flinched to keep them in line between 75-150m we can remove flinch entirely from all other weapons and go back to the gameplay that made bb so popular and fun during the playtests, only with the benefit of keeping snipers in check

[craggy agate]

Give us an option to tune down flinch in settings 0-100%

[twilit mauve]

Yeah, honestly, they could simply make flinch a sniper-exclusive thing. It doesn't make any sense to affect ALL engagements because one thing was OP in playtests.

Snipers are such a nightmare to balance in shooters

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOebGm_jMLY

Shotguns too, but I'm glad they decided to not put them in the game

wise choice

[wet field]

For real who the f added Flinch as an update. Its just disgusting.

[twilit mauve]

All games that add it regret it, and change it over time. E.g.: CSGO, Planetside 2

[pastel shore]

1. remove aim punch completely, except on snipers with medium/long range scopes, who always finch when hit, with a small cooldown(1 flinch every 300 ms at most, which would normalize how often weapons of different RPMS aim punch).
2. reduce the magnitude dramatically, and you only get flinched on headshots w/ a short cooldown, except on snipers with medium/long range scopes, who always flinch when hit, with a short cooldown.
3. reduce the magnitude dramatically, with a short cooldown, otherwise unchanged.
4. reduce magnitude dramatically, no other changes

Yep, imo the best options, in order from best to least best.

1. snipers would remain in check, but with aim punch being more manageable and normalized over different fire rates. No aim punch otherwise brings the gunplay to what it was in pre-release, except snipers being more manageable at 75-150m ranges, which is vital

2. snipers remain in check, and aim punch now promotes aiming for headshots, as it will cause the opponent to flinch, although on the same cooldown as in 1) - 300 ms is long enough so it'll likely only ever happen once per fight. Probably benefits strong aimers more, as they will hit headshots more regularly. Flinch will also be much more manageable when it DOES occur.

3. everyone flinches, but on a cooldown so it's more manageable and is normalized across fire rates, but the magnitude is significantly reduced so it's easier to manage when it does happen. Probably the most likely change we can expect

4. the lazy fix, it'll help a ton but vectors and other higher fire rate weapons will still be troubling and annoying so I would be disapointed if this is what we end up seeing

[west magnet]

Flinch should only be a mechanic on scoped snipers for balance reasons, serves no purpose on regular guns other than adding RNG frustration into the mix

[final olive]

Just for statement sake, if Flinch is restricted to snipers this means only snipers, DMRs are non problematic and do not need additional penalties.

[pastel shore]

ya, bolts only. Ideally only when medium/long range scopes are equipped. If you running a red dot or irons you shouldn't flinch IMO

but depending how it's coded that might not be worth the effort

[cyan rain]

saw this video other day, such a good argument for limiting # of snipers tbh

[signal tangle]

just adding a cooldown could work, can't get flinched when already flinching or something, with a lower magnitude than is current, most gun fights will only last long enough for the once flinch unless you get lucky.

[pastel shore]

yea I think that is vital. Once every 300 ms means you'll flinch pretty much only once per fight. Still not ideal but will help tremendously. I do think the magnitude should be toned down atm it's too much, even 1 flinch per fight can be pretty dramatic

[twilit mauve]

I think snipers don't have access to red dots, right? At least the starter sniper

[pastel shore]

Not the normal ones, but they do have canted and above sight dots. I wouldn't mind if regular red dots were allowed, though.

[signal tangle]

combine the two ideas maybe, rate by damage and armor(caliber and armor?), and add the cooldown. meaning you get whacked with a sniper/dmr, you get flinched harder, but not so much with a pistol or smg.

[twilit mauve]

Ohhh canted sights, I forgot

good call

[pastel shore]

nah, once it's normalized for fire rate, any remaining punch should be equal across all guns. Having LMGs cause flinch but SMGs not is a massive balancing headache that doesn't need to exist and will still result in players feeling frustrated over flinch, so that just creates more problems than it addresse

[signal tangle]

so smgs keep being better than basically everything, but the distance is closed a tiny bit

[pastel shore]

supports already have a ridiculous EHP bonus, and their guns are strong. The l86 for example competes with the vector for TTK, having it aim punch on top of that while other guns don't means now you have to put out 165 HP worth of damage, while your aim is thrown off, and your opponent only has to throw out 100 damage while his aim isn't thrown off, and your guns have virtually equal DPS. So now you have to do 65% more damage than him while having your aim thrown off and having less HP than him. Yea that's just a headache waiting to happen.

[signal tangle]

right. against a vector. use an AR and that isn't really a problem.

[pastel shore]

no, losing flinch already passively nerfs SMGs dramatically. Flinch benefits them most at the moment, so reducing flinch lessons their strength automatically. On top of that, vector and SMGs are ALSO getting a nerf already. So you're just trying to triple dip on nerfs, which is just an awful idea. Fix flinch, balance the guns seperately. Don't try and fix balance using flinch.

[late sparrow]

using flinch to balance gunplay is a slipery slope to unfun gunplay

[signal tangle]

the nerf to smgs just make their effective range to what it should have been. removing a buff if you will

[pastel shore]

it's just honestly so old seeing people keep saying the same things, it's the same thing in medic threads. Stop trying to use other mechanics to nerf the vector. Address the mechanics first and balance the vector afterwards - it IS getting nerfed. There is literally no universe in which giving LMGs the ability to flinch others while they can't flinch them back is a good idea. It's just not.

[signal tangle]

also, another guy said LMGs get flinch only

I said that damage per shot. which LMG's do not have that much more damage than an AR

less is most cases, haven't checked the Ultimax yet though so that might be better

[pastel shore]

it's the same thing. It's just completely unneeded and doesn't actually address the problems. Doing that actually makes other balance problems even worse. So it's just not a good way to do it.

[signal tangle]

what would it make worse?

[pastel shore]

AK15 and FAL would now impart the most flinch on others, while being two of the strongest guns in the entire game at this time. They would both become signfiicantly stronger and more frustrating to play against than the vector EVER was.

[signal tangle]

those two need to be in a new class, calling a battlerifle an AR just gives the wrong impression for how they should act

[pastel shore]

Each of them does over 40 damage, with scaling flinch, now they flinch others more and have an even bigger advantage than they would in other circumstances. And now, you're trying to re-define entire gun classes, instead of just reworking flinch correctly. See the problem?

[west magnet]

why do people try and find a place for objectively shit mechanics, flinch just needs to go and thats it

[signal tangle]

that doesn't redfeine anything, and its a gripe I have had for a long time already. they stuck alot of weapons in the AR class that shouldn't actually be there

[late carbon]

ah yes, pain

[pastel shore]

You are creating a complete mess. Not only is flinch still annoying, but now you have more balance problems, and now you have to rework entire gun classes.. instead of just implementing one of the much more simple and straight forward solutions that don't break everything.

[signal tangle]

how does me sticking them in another class, literally just changing text in the menu, effect anything?

[pastel shore]

all the solutions I proposed earlier are better than yours - they address the problems, keep the benefits(keeping snipers in check), don't negatively impact balance, and are simple and striaght forward. There's no need for the sort of bs "let's try and sneak in an LMG buff LUL" suggestions

[signal tangle]

I'm sorry that the fact we have a Carbine class, but the AR class has 5 Carbines in it irks me

[signal tangle]

I never said shit about the LMGs my guy

you're the one who brought them up in the first place

[pastel shore]

yea sorry, that's same thing as caliber. LMG guys have been spamming that shit in here literally every day

[peak gulch]

Supports ehp bonus is a joke btw don't defend it

I don't know how you play this game but you seem to think the demonstrably weaker classes are strong and the OP classes (and weapons) need help

[signal tangle]

5.56 would actually be at the low end of flinch so I wonder why

[peak gulch]

I don't get it but am willing to learn

[pastel shore]

not sure if you are talking about me, but no, I don't. I just want aim punch to fuckoff and do it in the best way possible. That's it.

I mostly use P90, FAL, M200. Three guns on my account which have the most kills on them

[peak gulch]

(Btw having a gameplay mechanic for a single class is textbook bad game design)

[signal tangle]

medic self-heal?

[peak gulch]

That's a feature not a mechanic

[signal tangle]

I'm sorry what

[pastel shore]

however, I have unlocked every single attachment on every single gun in the game before prestiging, so I have a pretty good understanding of how they all work.

No, he's talking about snipers being flinched. The reason I keep that in is because without it, snipers are completely dominant. Flinch does it's job of keeping snipers in check, and they need to be treated in a unique way due to the 1hko potential at any range, which is why I think flinch should stay there for snipers.

[peak gulch]

A mechanic would be something like flinch, jumping, running etc, a feature is a class specialisation like healing, RPGs, grappling hooks

[signal tangle]

or just scopes? because that would just mean noone uses bolts anymore, and switches to DMR's or the Battle rifles.

[pastel shore]

However, flinch ruins every single other gunfight in the game. So keeping it on snipers, removing it on other guns is just the best solution imo.

I'm aware it's technically bad game design to do so, but I simply can't think of, nor have I seen, a better way to handle that particular issue. Snipers are hard to balance, without the flinch in bb they are decidely OP as hell - we know that as a fact from the playtests. They are still borderline OP af even with flinch, but are easier to handle, especially in the 75-150m ranges, which is where they need to be kept in check mostly.

So we're left with a problem - without flinch, snipers OP, but every otherfight is great. With flinch, snipers are in a better spot, but every other fight sucks.

[peak gulch]

Soft disagree, it's currently too much (which does negatively affect), but it makes people play in a slightly more tactical manner rather than just rushing straight forward, knowing they're at much less of a disadvantage if they get caught in the open

Like it was during the play tests, one of the effects flinch had was to slow the game down slightly

[pastel shore]

so suggestion 2-4 of mine 🙂 I already accounted for the situation in which oki thinks flinch has to stay in some form. I have 4 different suggestions.

[signal tangle]

tell that to the medics, sprint in at the speed olight, die, give up, respawn, repeat

[signal tangle]

I honestly like the cooldown one

[peak gulch]

2 is dumb but 4 is fine

[peak gulch]

People will play this game badly, you can't balance off bad play

[signal tangle]

its not "bad" play is the problem. its actually more rewarding to do that. less tactics and more COD sprinting in screaming, dying, repeat with the movement making them pretty hard to hit if they know what they are doing

[placid dagger]

He was giving a counterexample to your "it makes people play in a slightly more tactical manner"

[signal tangle]

yes^. maybe a jumpcool down? because I think that's the major problem, the jumping in circles with the aircontrol we got.

but I also don't want them to touch air control

[placid dagger]

jump cooldown would completely destroy climbing

and in turn some of the map designs

[late sparrow]

howd this chat go from talking about flinch to chopping the movement system

[signal tangle]

medics?

[placid dagger]

welcome to feedback threads

we go from medic issues to tanks

[signal tangle]

also true.

[late sparrow]

as a medic main, stop pls

[signal tangle]

but still the light armor roblox dodging kinda takes away from the "tactial playstyle"

[late sparrow]

squads about to roll ICO you might enjoy that more

[placid dagger]

expecting tactical gameplay from BBR is a mistake in the first place imho

[peak gulch]

Jumping is fun

[placid dagger]

Flinch isn't fun

[signal tangle]

literally against what they want the game to be but ok

[late sparrow]

afaik it was supposed to be a more milsim but they realized with this look of the game it wouldnt work hence they turned base game more arcadey and are working on a separate "hardcore" mode

[signal tangle]

tactical doesn't have to mean milsim

there's a scale there

[peak gulch]

Yea, I'm seeing a whole lot of hard one way or the other in this thread

Balance is good 🙂

[humble nest]

should be robox tarkov
I want to choke down a jar of mayo while dessicated scavengers are somehow all also olympic level marksmen

[grim socket]

HATE AIM PUNCH/FLINCH mechanics. Annoying + noobs get headshots thanks to it sometimes.

[signal tangle]

The words of a noob.

[grim socket]

huh?

im fine with it being in hardcore mode but keep it out of arcade

[peak gulch]

Ok noob

[pastel shore]

There are already cooldowns. Jump has a 1/2 second cooldown, as well as standing up after proning.

[green dragon]

I am not sure if I heard correctly, but I believe the devs said they will only change things if a majority of players agree.

The flinch mechanic will definitely not be on their list to fix fast

[weary garden]

honestly its the most jarring difference for me compared to battlefield where there's 0 flinch, I keep swearing my aim was never this bad in BF games but the flinch seems to constantly catch me off guard

[wheat copper]

This was probably said already, but my personal issue with aimpunch being a balancing mechanic is that it seems like it's non existent against supports with helmets/body armor or other classes with armor on their head/body. If it's based on damage, my first couple of shots are always worthless anyways. They could be out of position in an open area and snap to me and shred me anyways because of their armor

I understand most of the talking points here from reading this thread since yesterday, so I don't really want to debate about it, I just wanted to speak my piece in case my point of view isn't parallel to anything yet

[brittle lichen]

Just remove aim punch. Its best for the game

[wet field]

Just Remove it ~!

[pastel shore]

1. remove aim punch completely, except on snipers with medium/long range scopes, who always finch when hit, with a small cooldown(1 flinch every 300 ms at most, which would normalize how often weapons of different RPMS aim punch).
2. reduce the magnitude dramatically, and you only get flinched on headshots w/ a short cooldown, except on snipers with medium/long range scopes, who always flinch when hit, with a short cooldown.
3. reduce the magnitude dramatically, with a short cooldown, otherwise unchanged.
4. reduce magnitude dramatically, no other changes

Yep, imo the best options, in order from best to least best.

[grand mortar]

Bit late of me to say this but the recoil isn’t random

[lofty harbor]

i prefer option one, but not the sniper part

[grand mortar]

ak74 recoil values

atleast i dont think they are random

they look hardcoded

[weary garden]

so its similar to a cs:go style thing where it always kicks the same way? huh

don't know enough unity coding to properly read this though

[pastel shore]

nah it looks pseudorandom, but weighted values so it's more likely to perform in a somewhat similar way, but not set patterns where it's the same

[royal sable]

Recoilpaterns

Joys of technical debt 😂

[brittle lichen]

Also doesnt aim punch factor based off of your gun and not the one your getting shot at from?

[zenith prairie]

I have seen 3 people claim that now

none had evidence

[brittle lichen]

I've seen the claim

And it feels right based off of my experience but I also don't have definitive proof

[final olive]

Aimpunch also just causes your aim to no longer match your gun, since bullets are fired from the camera. Here for example I am ACTUALLY aiming at my hitmarker not at the scope aimpoint. Makes it essentially impossible to compensate for Aimpunch.

Next frame where I fired and my bullet being fired towards where the hitmarker was

[wet field]

Just remove Aim punch 👊

[mystic flame]

What if Flinch/Aim punch got weaker the further away you're shot from?

[brittle lichen]

just remove it

It's not a fun mechanic & degrades my gaming experience

[inland nexus]

how do i feel about aim punch? if i wanted my screen to shake when i was shot i would have screen shake turned on

[novel thicket]

just keep it to milsim/hardcore mode

[green dragon]

the issue with eliminating it completely is that it enables recons to dominate. with no aimpunch recons with boltactions have everything to gain by being far away behind cover, while everyone else has everything to lose, because they can't sling bullets their way to say "fuck off"

if the collective opinion is to remove it completely, i mostly agree...

except for bolt action snipers. in their case, it should remain and the intensity of the aim punch should increase with distance. This lets close range snipers with red dots/ iron sights stand a chance, while keeping long range snipers in check. Glint isn't enough without aimpunch, itd just mean their screen get a ketchup filter before they get the kill.

[novel thicket]

i would prefer the other classes simply notice the recon and use smokes instead

makes the game more tactical and more challenging for recon

[final olive]

I mean it is close range snipers that need the most punishment from aimpunch, that is the main merit of the system

[novel thicket]

i dont play sniper much but arent they already pretty weak close range

since they cant 1 shot body kill

[green dragon]

it tends to be a 2 shot yeah

[final olive]

As they should be, snipers have the only 1 shot kill possible weapon and SHOULD NOT be strong at close range. And controls on that range make sense

[novel thicket]

and they got no helmet too

[green dragon]

yes but that's already been taken care of by reverse damage falloff. they're guaranteed to be a 2 shot kill unless they can land a headshot, and even then supports will still win. so even with little to no aimpunch they'd likely die anyway

[novel thicket]

i think recons should be left in peace they feel nerfed enough with the glint

[placid dagger]

I think the glint needs to be adjusted

[green dragon]

the glint is good for everyone who isn't recon b/c you have somewhat of an idea where a sniper killed you. seeing a glint, pushing anyway, and dying, it feels more fair, you challenged the glint carelessly and died for it

[placid dagger]

currently nobody is using a long range scope unless at really long ranges

[novel thicket]

yeah insta switch to medium scopes

[placid dagger]

because the glint goes through too many objects, has a visibility cone larger than the sight-cone of the sniper and is a little too bright

but anyway this is off topic

[serene cloak]

a sniper is always at a disadvantage in close quarters, due to having no helmet and no full auto primary. if you let him get a headshot on you then he deserves to win the engagement. aim punch is just a bad mechanic all around

[final olive]

One shot kill weapons have no place in close quarters (I'd argue no place in the game at all but I will not die on the hill of snipers being a poison to FPS game design as a whole).

[novel thicket]

🤔

[brittle lichen]

why not remove recon class?

It'd be more fun

[green dragon]

recons have their place. there's way more immediate fun-killing problems like aimpunch, medic, smg, map design, cowardly ground vehicles never leaving spawn, lean spam, drop shotting, jump spam, ridiculous movement mechanics

[pastel shore]

no, not at all. In cqc, snipers are weak even with 0 aimpunch, you get 1 shot and need a perfect shot and you'll be traded out in any situation that isn't 1v1.

Snipers need to be kept in check at medium ranges between around 75-150m, that's where it's easiest to sit and hit headshots with if ARs/DMRs can't return fire or pressure them.

[final olive]

ARs can pressure snipers out to ~250m, most just don't bother shooting. DMRs can pressure snipers out to 1km without issue, just DMRs are bad and most people don't use them

In both cases, aim punch doesn't do anything to help this pressure

In DMR's case aim punch actually makes that pressure harder as they are the most punished weapon class by aim punch

[pastel shore]

What, of course it does. At those ranges no aim punch means that pressuring a sniper is effectively suicide. They are forced to duck behind cover or have almost no chance of hitting a shot because they could be aim punched by any hit. Just shooting in their general direction is useful because 1 hit will throw their aim off. With no aim punch, they can take their time to lineup an easy headshot knowing they'll hit even if they get hit because their aim won't move

aim punch is essential for pressuring snipers in that distance. Further out, it's not very useful to pressure them, at that point you want smokes, LOS, or to counter snipe. But closer ranges it's very easy to hit headshots and snipers need to be vulnerable to pressure from return fire even if it doesn't result in a kill

[final olive]

I mean that is what the bleed mechanic already does

[pastel shore]

by that I mean around 75-150m. Up to 250m, sure,pressure them but it becomes significanlty more risky even with aim punch.

[final olive]

I mean if you want snipers to keep getting aimpunched I am not opposed to that, I just don't actually think it does much at longer ranges as asserted

I think aim punch as a general mechanic though is bad

[pastel shore]

no, bleed does not accomplish that. Any hit below ~40 HP will start a bleed. At that distance ARs are not enough of a threat without aim punch to force snipers into cover.

And yes, I agree aim punch should be removed, but kept for snipers - you'll see my suggestions if you scroll up are pretty solid. I just disagree on the distance that aim punch matters for snipers, to me it's essential in mid range, pointless in cqc, and at long range usually you can't pressure them effectively either way so that's where smokes/los come in

[stoic terrace]

supression.

proper supression, not the garbage we have rn

[final olive]

Suppression would be ideal over aimpunch, but devs do not like the mechanics so we have barely noticable suppression now

[stoic terrace]

the supression that exists fucks over support absolute bs

[pastel shore]

While most players use them incorrectly at longer ranges, snipers are at their most deadly in the 50-250m range, specifically around 75-150m. If that's the range you position yourself in to snipe, you will find the most success. At that distance, it's very easy to lineup headshots, but SMGs/ARs aren't accurate enough to kill you before you can lineup a headshot, especially if you are playing cover properly, if there isn't any aim punch.

The risk of aim punch forces you to duck behind cover because it makes the risk of taking a hit, losing the kill, and thus making the damage trade worthless. Even that alone makes aim punch effective against snipers, because now the sniper is ducked behind cover just because someone threw bullets at him, even if they didn't hit.

And no, suppression is awful, that is geniunely just as bad if not worse than aim punch

that's rewarding a player for not even hitting the enemy. At least flinching requires hitting the target. Rewarding players for missing targets is awful. Supprsesion is geniunely one of the most hated mechanics in all of FPS games, even though some games keep forcing it despite general hatred towards it by the playerbase

[final olive]

Suppression can be played through typically, aim punch cannot

[pastel shore]

both turn fights from skill into RNG. Suppression affects fights just as much, if not more, than aim punch, especially when the mechanic is adding bloom to weapons like it was in BF3/BF4. Even after the dozens of changes reducing the affects of suppression, many fights were pure RNG in those games - they dramatically improved the cone of where bullets could land and resulted in guns being very innaccurate while under suppression, which turned a ton of fights into spray and pray for both sides even if both players had perfect aim.

[final olive]

I'd argue this is demonstration of a larger issue since the 50-250m should be a domain where DMRs outclass snipers but snipers just dominate all ranges. But that is more of a differnt discussion.

[pastel shore]

Snipers are naturally hard counters to DMRs, DMRs are counter to ARs at that range, while ARs are strong against snipers due to the higher fire rate(assuming the sniper gets aim punched)

[final olive]

But all the advantages you attribute to ARs over snipers apply to ARs over DMRs. Excepty that DMRs are even more vulnerable

[stoic terrace]

we have a gun not a magic bullet spewing stick in this game to

[final olive]

Since you always are alerted you are being shot before death with a DMR, but not with a sniper. So it is MUCH easier to return pressure.

[pastel shore]

1. remove aim punch completely, except on snipers with medium/long range scopes, who always finch when hit, with a small cooldown(1 flinch every 300 ms at most, which would normalize how often weapons of different RPMS aim punch).
2. reduce the magnitude dramatically, and you only get flinched on headshots w/ a short cooldown, except on snipers with medium/long range scopes, who always flinch when hit, with a short cooldown.
3. reduce the magnitude dramatically, with a short cooldown, otherwise unchanged.
4. reduce magnitude dramatically, no other changes

Yep, imo the best options, in order from best to least best.

here's how I view it. Each bullet is an individual suggestion

[stoic terrace]

so smth like sniper unsteady aim + tunnelvision and handling debuffs maybe idk

[final olive]

The primary mechanic used here is view reduction, which could EASILY be amped up to create a stronger effect without doing aim bloom (which is effectivly what aim punch is since it detatches your aim point and your fire point)

[pastel shore]

Balancing by adding in visual clutter, such as blurs, is geniunely awful. For me, it means I can't really play the game at all, a large number of players get headaches or eye strain when their screens become blurry. Blacking out the screen edges is annoying af and doesn't actually accomplish anything, and sway is either useless or so extreme it's even more annoying than flinch

[final olive]

Sway can be played through, flinch cannot be

[pastel shore]

suppression in general is just shit. Flinch is annoying, and I'd prefer it gone, but kept on snipers specifically to keep them in check. I would rather flinch as a sniper user than any suppression system

I say this as someone who is a very strong sniper player, fyi. I recognize they are OP when there is no flinch, but suppression is simply not a good way to handle it. Rewarding players for missing is worse than flinch

[final olive]

I mean in a game where you can head glitch, having only flinch largly makes flinch a fake downside since the area to hit you is so tiny

[pastel shore]

Especially because of the sheer number of people on each team as BB. Your screen /aim would be literally permanently suppressed in bb, it wouldn't work at all

[final olive]

Onlyif a ton of people were applying a large volume of fire at you at all times O.o

[pastel shore]

That's a positioning skill, though. If you choose to engage a sniper who is in a secure spot on a headglitch or prone while you are out of range or don't have the skill to hit the shots, you should die. That's a distinctly skill issue. However, if you flank and catch them off guard, you should have a massive advantage even at longer ranges, and it should be hard for them to return accurate fire. Flinch accomplishes that perfectly for snipers.