showdown-teambuilding

[sudden girder]

maybe aggron luxray?

[native helm]

sure but why not do something like Dhelmise then

steelworker is a REALLLY mean ability

w/ gyro ball

[sudden girder]

dhelmise metagross?

grass steel?

bulletpunch

[native helm]

yeah grass steel is solid

[sudden girder]

and you know the stats of a pseudo legendary?

[native helm]

bullet punch, meteor mash

gyro ball

[sudden girder]

powerwhip?

[native helm]

yeah

put a band on that bad boy too while you're at it lol

[sudden girder]

maybe even Sd

[native helm]

1.5x from steelworker, 1.5x from STAB, 1.5x from band

[sudden girder]

after all who needs trickroom if you got bulletpunch am I right?

[native helm]

real

good in room and out

Yo, Dhelmise and Metagross sounds really mean

• Steelworker is 1.5x to all steel type moves, paired with STAB and band makes it really mean
• Meteor mash, Gyro ball, Bullet punch, power whip are all solid moves
• Grass/steel typing put in work for Kartana and it will do so again here
• Pseudo-legendary stats

Toxapex + Krookodile btw?

either fusion has disgusting typing

Tox body + krook head is ground water with 80/94/124 defenses

parting shot, intimidate, baneful bunker, toxic spikes

54 spe

could also swap out intimidate for regenerator too

Tox head + Krook body is poison dark, only a handful of pokemon resist that and of them only Krookodile, Bisharp, Lucario, Ttar, and Mawile are in the game

basically needs to be a steel type that resists dark

65 base health is pretty sad tho

so probably tox body + krook head

https://www.fusiondex.org/361.455/

[sudden girder]

i mean toxs base hp is a joke and its still a nightmare for so many players cause of its defensive stats

[native helm]

sure but imagine if it's base HP wasn't a joke tho

[sudden girder]

I would join the war on stall, on the side of stall

[native helm]

lol

[sudden girder]

doesnt it have like 140 defenses

with base 100 hp?
Good luck tickling that thing

[native helm]

50/152/142 on base toxa

[sudden girder]

worse bulk than registeel

[native helm]

better moves and typing tho

and ability

[sudden girder]

oh sure

[native helm]

scald + baneful + toxic spikes

[sudden girder]

wait a second

[native helm]

now we're adding even better typing to the mix, parting shot, and intimidate access

[sudden girder]

we can buff registeel

[native helm]

oh god we can

[sudden girder]

Give it regen?

[native helm]

water steel is a pretty mean typing iirc

[sudden girder]

tox/Regi?

good or bad?

unique as far as I remember

[native helm]

70/151/147 defenses

regenerator, steel water typing

[sudden girder]

thats solid

[native helm]

that's a brick wall right there

[sudden girder]

it is weak to eq tho

and volt

[native helm]

weak to eq didn't stop toxa

[sudden girder]

Fair

[quiet salmon]

tox krook is just worse tox tar

[sudden girder]

but here entei has V-Create

[quiet salmon]

tox regi is bad

[native helm]

intimidate + parting shot tho

[quiet salmon]

insanely passive and easy to force out

intim off bad phys bulk

poison dark is not a good physdef typing anyway its a specdef typing

[native helm]

so having intimidate makes its phys bulk even better

wym

this is why inciniroar is disgusting

[quiet salmon]

it makes bad phys bulk into mid phys bulk

[native helm]

define good phys bulk

[quiet salmon]

when you can just have great phys bulk with something else

[sudden girder]

rhyperior glicor?

[quiet salmon]

good mon

[sudden girder]

thats bulky

[quiet salmon]

it has good phys bulk

[sudden girder]

oh yeah

[native helm]

101/110/61

doesn't that get forced out by anything that might run ice beam or water gun?

[sudden girder]

Oh sure

but you got 5 mons to cover that

[quiet salmon]

why do i care im using it to wall physical attackers

[sudden girder]

Ice punch dusknoir?

[quiet salmon]

does little

also not used

[sudden girder]

ye i know

what would make dusc good?

[native helm]

you lose tempo to u-turn on whatever you're walling

[sudden girder]

you can uturn back?

and swichting into knock is always a pain

[native helm]

at 76 base speed you're eating an ice beam before that happens

[quiet salmon]

not really anything bc dusclops is just better

[sudden girder]

oh man

[native helm]

dusclops eviolite is mean yeah

fuse with like blissey

[sudden girder]

i once had a bewear with dusclopa

[quiet salmon]

if you have a defensive core with defensive pivots then ur fine

[native helm]

instantly fix its original issues of having bad hp and sustain

[sudden girder]

the physical bulk was digusting

[native helm]

my point is tho how does this do better than krookapex

[sudden girder]

good stats I guess?

[quiet salmon]

bc its not weak to ground

passive recovery

resists fighting

knock absorber

[native helm]

water/ground tho

[sudden girder]

flying ground is also good typing

[native helm]

water ground and flying ground are roughly equal typings

[sudden girder]

maybe even better?

cause spike imunity

and eq

[native helm]

flying adds ground immunity but water is adding scald

[sudden girder]

besides thousand arrows but lets ignore that

tough choice

[native helm]

like i'd say flying ground is probably a hair better than water ground

but they're both incredibly good typings

[sudden girder]

what would a comp consitent from a few HO mons and a few defensive pivots be called?

[native helm]

HO?

[sudden girder]

Hyper offense

things like alakazm

[native helm]

you can't do hyperoffense with a defensive core

[sudden girder]

so its not Hyperoffense

[native helm]

yeah

[sudden girder]

balance?

[native helm]

yeah

unless you have a 1 man army defensive core

[sudden girder]

how do balance and bulky offense differ?

[native helm]

which is an everything wall

[sudden girder]

jirachi tangrowth kinda fits that bill?

[native helm]

bulky offense means your main carries are things like conkeldurr

where even your sweepers have some meat to them

[sudden girder]

ah

[native helm]

and can counter mons rather than just check and revenge kill them

[sudden girder]

so dragonite ursaring foe example?

[native helm]

yeah if multiscale

[sudden girder]

or snorlax gliscor?

[native helm]

snorlax gliscor yes

[sudden girder]

nah guts espeex

espeed

its that Hyperoffense?

[native helm]

gliscor gets espeed?

[sudden girder]

no dragonite

with ursaring

[native helm]

oh

[sudden girder]

its disguisting

but what class would it be?

[native helm]

drago ursa with guts espeed would be closer to a fast physical sweeper

[sudden girder]

ah ok

[native helm]

actually

its not that fast

just looked at the base stats

that's bulky physical

which you can run in HO btw

HO is just like

you have 5 sweepers

and 1 janitor

janitor is the wincon, you trade 1 for 1 on each of your sweepers

clear out answers to janitor

then switch in janitor while they have no answers to it

[sudden girder]

dont you want a hazard suicide lead on HO?

[native helm]

varies

[sudden girder]

webs + rocks?

[native helm]

my personal favorite HO team was Lele + Mega Alakazam

that doesn't open with hazards

rocks are certainly nice for sash/sturdy

[sudden girder]

never played any metagame besudes this one

[native helm]

but sash/sturdy is actually kinda uncommon

[sudden girder]

because rocks

[native helm]

only when you have specific abusers like gengar does it matter

or kartana

rocks also made it rarer yea

but youve got things like rapid spin and defog if that matters to your team

[sudden girder]

for my style of play, absolutly

[native helm]

Thinking of doing Magnezone magnet pull trappers for steel type walls - thoughts?
https://www.fusiondex.org/263.367/
https://www.fusiondex.org/263.34/

[minor cradle]

i mean u just need to fuse it with any decent fires, fightings, grounds so just find anything decent that synergizes well

[snow pike]

I saw magnelure alot in early meta

[gleaming otter]

Late but this is too slow for sticky webs

[sudden girder]

good for trickroom?

[minor cradle]

meh not rly

well lemme calc

if it can at least kill ttar pex with +3 tbolt

but than again tr is just bad and inconsistent esp in reg dex

+3 252+ SpA Life Orb Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Toxapex: 199-234 (59.4 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

not worth it

esp since it also needs to run fblast for jigrowth (aka steels that resist electric basically) anyways

i mean

u can still run it since if its in tr it kills everything it the more offensive teams

it also doesnt do anything vs spdef unaware walls other than like clefcune

[gleaming otter]

Provably but the problem there is that trick room is horrendous

Extremely hard to setup + only a few abusers that are realy worth it

(Kecleon/Rampardos)

A lot of the most offensive IF Dex mons are not that slow

[native helm]

Cresselia was a pretty good trick room setter. Slow, but hard to stop.

Add Slowbro to that and you can take something other than a mental herb b/c oblivious. Unless levitate is too important

[gleaming otter]

I made a team with this setup already

The trick rooms are hard to stop but making something that would be even half as good as just setting up screens is very difficult

[native helm]

Brick break exists

[snow pike]

What about regenerator for more opportunities to set it up again?

[snow pike]

nobody runs that lol

[gleaming otter]

Brick break is a meme

[snow pike]

defog is more likely

Does it work on screens im gen 7?

[gleaming otter]

Yes

But honestly playing against defog with a HO team is a lot easier than playing trick room

Defogging means they give you a free turn and that can win the game

[gleaming otter]

The main issue is that teleport doesn’t work

[native helm]

Yes

I was gonna do teleport cress

But teleport mechanics are broken

[gleaming otter]

So your options for safe pivoting to your trick room mons after setup are:

• memento
• nothing

All this to switch to mons that might just get blanked by sturdy defensive Pokémon anyways

[native helm]

Or lunar dance

Same issue tho

I was trying to run a trick room setup kinda like Gen 6 meta just after weather wars

Where half the team prefers to not be in trick room

So that I could, midway, pivot to cress and use both cores differently

Except now I can pass lunar dance to build back a bulky mon

[snow pike]

how about self trick room

I don't think there's anything tanky and offensive enough with trick room that could do it

maybe chandelure ig

[minor cradle]

You know its bad when kecleon is a usable option 💀

[gleaming otter]

it's grim but in the rare times where you get trick room up

it is extremely difficult to stop

140 attack with protean cleans up even dedicated stall

[quiet salmon]

idk about that your set doesnt hit clef/quag se

[sudden girder]

what are some good Stallbreakets?

breakers

would suicune be considered a Stallbreaker?
The calm mind substitute set, I mean.

[quiet salmon]

it would

[sudden girder]

so clef suicune would be a stallbreaker?
With magic guard or unaware?

How do stall breakers differ from wall breakers?

Are wall breakers slower hard hitting Mons

Meanwhile Stallbreakers are anything that deals with Stall?

[snow pike]

mguard so you cant get toxiced but doesn't it also run unaware on stall with cm
So you need to add roar if that possible
I don't know if it learns that

[snow pike]

I'm not sure but I think wall breakers are powerful attackers that aren't necessarily fast that can force switches and possibly threaten defensive cores

And stall breakers are probably those that can sit on most defensive mons without being able to be forced out and setup to win?

Though haze is a thing most stall teams will use so I don't know if that's entirely the definition

[quiet salmon]

wallbreakers do big damage off the bat

stallbreakers use strategies to specifically beat stall (being immune to status, using taunt, having high coverage to break down defensive cores)

wallbreakers can also be stallbreakers, for example mawilemega is considered both

[gleaming otter]

What he said

[quiet salmon]

Im She

[sudden girder]

whats better for Alakazam/Electrode :

4 attacks life orb

3 attacks Calm mind Focus stash

[minor cradle]

4a lorb

if u want a sweeper you'd prefer smth else like hymega or smth

[gleaming otter]

4a lorb by far

[gleaming otter]

Offensive Sun team https://pokepast.es/6c77eba86daf0310
It's a mostly standard sun team but electrode/ninetales works more than you'd expect. Taunt + mind blown is really good at stopping early hazards while keeping momentum and blowing itself up, and ai balloon is surprisingly useful

Mollix is kinda weird but I wanted a really fat physdef mon that benefited from reduced water damage so mollix it is

[native helm]

4a lorb, you're lucky if it survives one turn even with sash lol

[sudden girder]

doesnt stash guarante that one hit?

stash also means you are less vulnerable to pursuit and priority. Both kinda dunk on this fusion otherwise

[gleaming otter]

4A LOrb should use vswitch and pursuit is extremely uncommon

to get past priority use one of your five teammates

also without a life orb you might not even kill the priority pokemon in front of you

[minor cradle]

if ur worried about espeed than just switch

if ur worried about pursuit its cause your a dumbass and didnt click volt on the obvious pursuit mon switchin

and if u killed a mon beforehand that gave them a free switch than its either a fine sac or a stupid play depending on the context

[sudden girder]

what if the pursuit trapper blocks volt?

[minor cradle]

than it aint tanking energy ball or mind blown properly

and if you know they're ground type u can just position urself to constantly pressure while minimizing risk

[native helm]

pursuit is base 80 power on switch-out. Same as crunch. That's why it's not run often.

much rather run knock off which hits about 20% harder and still punishes switch-out

[native helm]

use psychic terrain to stop priority

benefits your pyschic STAB

[quiet salmon]

no psychic surger

and pursuit is genuinely good to trap psychics such as the aforementioned alaode

[minor cradle]

Pursuit isnt run often if the ghosts/psychics in the tier are shit otherwise its def better than crunch, knock off works though but u can also just run both moves

Kingambit @ Black Glasses
Ability: Supreme Overlord
Tera Type: Dark / Ghost
EVs: 116 HP / 252 Atk / 140 Spe
Adamant Nature

• Knock Off
• Pursuit
• Iron Head
• Sucker Punch

An example of a mon running both moves in vanilla (ik its banned now but you get the point)

Tyranitar @ Tyranitarite
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 132 HP / 252 Atk / 124 Spe
Tera Type: Rock
Adamant Nature

• Stone Edge
• Knock Off
• Pursuit
• Stealth Rock

Probably a better example for vanilla, point is pursuit is a broken ass move if theres a broken psychic/ghost type, in IF dex ou alaode is a great example that encouranges use of pursuit, it also just chips obvious switches like u can just throw pexttar pursuit on the enemy volt switching jolteon or smth

[sudden girder]

what are some good ice typ fusions?

I know mamoswine/Meloetta P is one though that one feels like its just Meloetta Ps stats carrying it.

[minor cradle]

like those r pretty non existent so like ig anything usable on weavile mamo and kyurem ig

there really aren't any good ones

[native helm]

There are good ice type fusions but the problem is that V-create is in the meta on everything making ice type terrible since it's weak to fire.
You'd need a fusion that's obscenely fast off rip, like an offensive pivot weavile fusion. Not sure if something like that exists/works

Even then, you have priority threats in the meta like Espeed dragonite/ursaring that punish for having low defenses and no ghost typing

[quiet salmon]

weavile would be better if its ice stab wasnt ice punch

some mamoswine fusions exist but in general ice isnt great

[gleaming otter]

It is a fast knock off dark type which is nice if you’re fighting back against the doublade fusions

*trying to fight back

[native helm]

Flying ground is fairly common and weavile also gets Uturn to conserve momentum

[gleaming otter]

Ability: Mold Breaker  
Fusion: Haxorus  
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe  
Adamant Nature  
- Dragon Dance  
- Return  
- Knock Off  
- Earthquake```

Point of this one is to beat unaware pokemon + eviolite mons + spectral thief

[quiet salmon]

do you beat unaware

clef takes a hit and moonblasts you

[gleaming otter]

You have a better chance actually killing them if they’re a little chipped down

Does clef moonblast one shot? That’d be tragic

[quiet salmon]

neither are particularly specially bulky

[gleaming otter]

No it doesn’t

I might’ve fucked up the damage calc since I’m on mobile but I think you actually win with earthquake

[quiet salmon]

who did you use

[gleaming otter]

Physdef clefsteel

[quiet salmon]

then calc clefcune, clefclops, clefpex, etc

[gleaming otter]

I will when I’m on a pc but I’d be surprised if +1 return didn’t 2HKO all of these bar clefclops

[quiet salmon]

what matters is whether moonblast ohkos

[gleaming otter]

it does like 85% max for clefsteel and everything but clefcune has lower special attack

Clefcune has 93 instead of 88 but that isn’t killing

You do still lose with chip damage though

[gleaming otter]

Lum berry is also a bit of a meme item

Weakness policy would be a banger on this

[chilly hull]

Anyone able to help me with smth?

[snow pike]

Weavile has U-Turn? Since when?

[cursive tundra]

honestly wouldn't be surprised if it ever got it in IF

does not tho

[sudden girder]

why is lum a meme item?
Making your setup sweeper immune to Status (especially burn) seems quite valuble

[gleaming otter]

Meme is a bit harsh but a lot of the time we'd get more use out of like
silk scarf

[sudden girder]

I feel like Lum is honestly the best item on that set tbh

since it means you arent afraid of scald

[cursive tundra]

Lum is good on physical setup sweepers the most

[gleaming otter]

yes but you also really really need to hit things hard
the scalders are bad but if meloxarus can't hit the kos it's an unmon

[sudden girder]

well lum gives you the oppurtunitys to set up to become strong enough in order to get the necessary K.Os

[cursive tundra]

a mon like this would likely have another sweeper or two on the team

as with many offensive teams

backup to the backup

[gleaming otter]

all of them need to hit things
for the scalders I'd prefer to run a realer electric type or the likes

I understand lum berry's use but, at least in my head, there's a lot more situations where no silk scarf gets rid of an important roll than losing the 30% scald from the scalders

[minor cradle]

What r the silk scarf rolls than?

[gleaming otter]

its like a 13% difference in attack rolls (or if it had 177 attack)

[minor cradle]

ok but what mons would silk scarf make a difference

[gleaming otter]

any defensive mon that doesn't resist return

at +2 a lot of almost ohkos become ohkos

namely against fat fairies

[minor cradle]

Ok but i mean

Post the calcs lmao

[gleaming otter]

On a phone but

at +1 versus Suicor and Rhycor, without silk scarf you need to boost again to 2HKO them as opposed to having silk scarf and just clicking

Although this is a specific damage, the 20% power boost is pretty good considering this is your main way of doing damage

[minor cradle]

i mean u could also just get stealth rocks up just saying

[gleaming otter]

https://tenor.com/view/fnb-get-this-man-a-true-gif-25257480

[sudden girder]

how do i build stall here?

I honestly do not know

and I mean full stall

[gleaming otter]

losing to Big Sun is pretty annoying
it's not too different from building stall in other metas, but there's a lot of offensive threats to manage

and they're all strong as fuck

the weathers still reign supreme

[sudden girder]

I honestly think my biggest problem are magic bounce and magic guard

And yeah power stacking

[sudden girder]

still gg on that one

My main problem is the stacking of multipliers that cannot be ignored.

I think a similar problem would be how to does one switch into Miradon in Hadron engine with choice specs?

And the answer is you kinda dont

[gleaming otter]

fat as shit steel type fusion gg

[sudden girder]

So my question is rather, what typ of defesive stacking exist?

If only every single Offensive threat didnt choose options specifically to beat steels.

[gleaming otter]

eviolite mons can be extremely silly (not just doubladee, I've made workable mons with all sorts of them)
bewear fluffy fusions are great catch-all mons

[sudden girder]

and on the special side?

[gleaming otter]

although back when weather teams was really, truly everywhere, there was a kyurem/suicune fusion used as a universal check to weather

[gleaming otter]

eviolite still if you get really creative. I've made workable sliggoo fusions
although you mostly need strong resists/assault vests mons for that

[sudden girder]

legit how?

You have your teams, all of which cooked me because you are better than me.
I honestly dont know how to build one team that deals with all of em

[gleaming otter]

no I've lost to yours plenty of times

it helps that I build a lot but you stick to mostly the same ones

[sudden girder]

I mean I dont really feel like i have options?

I need a gliscor.
I need unaware
I need Spikes

Ok maybe I can drop spikes

And regen is regen

[gleaming otter]

you don't necessarily need gliscor tbf. it's a great fusion but not necessarily mandated
definitely not spikes, at least

[sudden girder]

How else would I deal with knock then?

Breloom?

[gleaming otter]

fairy type

[sudden girder]

I am talking bout the item removal

I guess Magic guard toxic orb clef could work

but then I need a special unaware wall

Because I have to be able to withstand Quiver dancers

Yes Av mons give me turns.. but they dont threaten them out.

[gleaming otter]

I mean it doesn't necessarily have to be a mon that straight up doesn't care about it's item, just one that can function well enough without it

[sudden girder]

That feels incredibly difficult

Even thinks like Jiragrowth can really afford to lose their item because it allows them to win match ups they otherwise couldnt

Second problem is magic bounce

how tf do I deal with an ability that reflects all passive dmg, using only passive dmg and the occaisonaly chip?

[gleaming otter]

most people don't run magic bounce tbf
although yeah that's a tough one

[sudden girder]

Wait does hail stall exist?

Cause no one is using ice types right?

so thats free chip right there

And that kyurem fusion you mentioned?
It has ice body

Oh wait nvm hail setters suck

[gleaming otter]

yeah lmao

[quiet salmon]

regen spam

[quiet salmon]

hail stall exists its just difficultto build

[gleaming otter]

(mostly fake)

I would be surprised to see a good hail stall team

how much of the team is sun proofing

on that note:

Ability: Regenerator  
Fusion: Toxapex  
EVs: 252 HP / 96 Def / 160 SpD  
Relaxed Nature  
- Scald  
- Knock Off  
- Recover  
- Toxic```

weather proof
better than kyurem/suicune because it has regenerator + significantly more bulk

[sudden girder]

I meant more like stacking bulk, like evioilte plus fluffy.

Similar how offensive threats can stack life orb sheer force

Adaptability Choice specs

And solar power

[gleaming otter]

ev'd to get 3hko'd by entei/meloetta close combat

[quiet salmon]

arcato had a p good semistall team it beat sun using kyuremsuicune

[quiet salmon]

doesnt really exist you just load raw stats

[gleaming otter]

eviolite will take you places

[sudden girder]

wont that always lose to mulitplier stacking?

[gleaming otter]

@wary lava is this real

[gleaming otter]

depends on how you build it

[sudden girder]

So full stall is incredibly weak to knock then?

[quiet salmon]

no

[gleaming otter]

not necessarily

[sudden girder]

since Eviolite

[quiet salmon]

you just have a designated knock absorber

like regen or ph or mg

[sudden girder]

How is a regen mon a knock absorber?

dont most regen mons run Av?

I feel like those mons cant afford to lose that bulk less they get run over by one of the many offensive threats?

[quiet salmon]

depending on team it can be a physdef helmet regen

[sudden girder]

Even those dont like losing the helmet

[quiet salmon]

but u dont instalose to knock

and if ur facing a team with mostly phys threats u dont need vest

[sudden girder]

But I wanna build a stall team that can handle all threats or at least the metagame ones

even 50 % would be pretty good

[quiet salmon]

i topped ladder without ph

[gleaming otter]

they don't like it but that doesn't mean they can't take it

knock absorber doesn't mean like
"can ignore it's item"

but it takes knock and functions okay w/o it

i.e. regenerator mons

[sudden girder]

what does Ph mean?

[gleaming otter]

poison heal

[sudden girder]

oh damn

maybe I am just shit

[gleaming otter]

nah it's all good

[sudden girder]

so would combining rain with a fluffy eviolite mon seem like a good idea?

Especially since bewear gives the normal typing as the body, which it wants to be since its hp is so massive

[quiet salmon]

idt any big eviolite mon has recovery

[gleaming otter]

Depends on the fusion

Idt bewear really works since most evo mons have no recovery

Unless you somehow make golbat work lmao

[sudden girder]

Honestly why not?

Is normal/flying a phys def typing?

because its bulk is bs thats why

[void willow]

Flying losing its Fighting resistance isn't really ideal for a pdef mon especially with all the MeloPs running around

I think it's workable regardless, but I just don't think the Ghost immunity is really worth the loss of a Fighting resist when you want a physically bulky mon

if you really want to use it with eviolite Bewear, then Scyther and Gligar are both reasonable choices with Roost

[sudden girder]

I think I will take Bewear gliscor.

and combine scyther with Ttar to have a special wall.

How gimmicky does jirachi + tangela sound?

[azure grove]

i'm not sure

[sudden girder]

how viable is vaporeon?
Considering a rain set with CM + Rest + Hydration.

[gleaming otter]

In a vacuum it’s a solid water fusion but it get outclassed quite a lot because there are fantastic water fusions out there

I guess a hydration set could work but depending on the fusion lapras might be better due to extra bulk

[gleaming otter]

Very

[minor cradle]

worse suicune most of the time, vaporeon gets wish ig

[sudden girder]

I forgot Lapras existet tbh

How bout a set that combines either Lapras or vaporeon with necrozma?

[gleaming otter]

I mean in this specific scenario he mentioned rain

Where it is much better than suicune

[sudden girder]

Good bulk + Water Psychic aint bad, and you kinda dont care bout Knock?

[gleaming otter]

You definitely care about knock lol

Is this for a stall team?

[sudden girder]

do you lose necrozium to knock?

[minor cradle]

psychic is a pretty bad type

theres no gatekeeping it anymore

[minor cradle]

idts

[sudden girder]

Yeah psychic is pretty shit

but the mons of the typ aint

and psychics got ablities and moves other mons would kill for

[sudden girder]

Yes,yes it is

[minor cradle]

even if its for a stall team, optimally you'd want to have a clefable fusion as ur knock absorber (aka clefcune) and a gliscor fusion as ur knock absorber (aka suicor)

[minor cradle]

just run clefcune atp

[sudden girder]

Why not both?

[minor cradle]

what does the vaporeon fusion

even gonna

realistically

do

that clefcune wont do better

[gleaming otter]

Rest hydration under rain

[gleaming otter]

^

[minor cradle]

no magic guard/unaware

[sudden girder]

well whats worse then fighting a clef suicune?
Fighting clef suicune an its little brother/sister

[gleaming otter]

magic guard is doing the same thing as hydration but worse since you don’t get full hp recovery

no unaware is unfortunate but if you were doing cm water Pokémon you’d use magic guard anyways

[minor cradle]

mguard is not the same thing as hydration

you'd get worn out by hazards too fast

also

you'd be relying on rest for healing which has like 8 max pp

[sudden girder]

16 no?

[minor cradle]

well i dont remember

could be 8 in sv and 16 normally

oh yeah it is 16 yeah my bad

[gleaming otter]

not really tbh
Hazards aren’t that hard to stop + you have lefties/great recovery to offset the damage easily

Also rest has 16 pp

my bad

[sudden girder]

Kinda neat a good rain setter first tho

whats better :
Poli celebi
or poli ferro?

remember I am building stall

[gleaming otter]

rain stall?

[minor cradle]

hazards arent hard to stop depending on what u brought for removal and even than its bit mu fishing

[minor cradle]

poli celebi has an actual recovery move

[sudden girder]

well I need weather here so yeah?
Also open to sand stall

[minor cradle]

u dont need weather

[sudden girder]

Yeah i do

[minor cradle]

no?

u dont need to always run

[gleaming otter]

What snow pea said

[minor cradle]

weather

[gleaming otter]

You can live without weather

[sudden girder]

Ok then how do I build a stall team that can handle offensive weather?

with out shutting down their weather?

[gleaming otter]

Dragon/water type + strong water type

[minor cradle]

get a fat water

literally

[sudden girder]

Wont that lose to sun + solar beam or Rain and thunder?

not to mention things like stab adability rain boosted hydropumps are possible here

[minor cradle]

get a fat water or dragon or both*

[gleaming otter]

^

[minor cradle]

whats giving adapt

[sudden girder]

porygon z?

[minor cradle]

i have never seen a pz on a rain team if i had to be honest

i've seen a typhlosion pz on sun once

[gleaming otter]

pz + water spout / hydro pump clicker is solid

[minor cradle]

i mean still just get a fat water or dragon or both

if u get 2 of em u should be able to handle rain sun and sand good enough

[sudden girder]

what fat water dragon do you recommend?

kyurem suicune?

[gleaming otter]

in their defense most of the fat waters still take like 50%> from hydro pump so it’s still not a fun time

[sudden girder]

yeah thats not a switch in then?

[gleaming otter]

I mean they can be

[sudden girder]

how?

[gleaming otter]

Depends on how fat they are specifically

[sudden girder]

ah

[gleaming otter]

Slowbro/doublade can switch into any fire/water physical attacker

[sudden girder]

Oh i know, but more concerned on the special side tbh

[minor cradle]

u could run like

Kyuapex (Kyurem) @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
Fusion: Toxapex
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature

• Knock Off
• Toxic
• Recover
• Haze

or

[sudden girder]

That seems inherently passive

and set up fodder

[minor cradle]

Meloapex (Meloetta) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Fusion: Toxapex
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe

• U-turn
• Knock Off
• Thunder
• Scald

[sudden girder]

or right haze

[minor cradle]

its stall???

[sudden girder]

yeah

[minor cradle]

u could get scald in it ig

[gleaming otter]

Why meloetta

[minor cradle]

i mean tbh any toxapex fusion with a fat mon that gives it high hp is good enough

[minor cradle]

its fat as fuck, although u could run snorlax instead

[gleaming otter]

definitely snorlax if I’m going to use normal type defensively

[minor cradle]

i just prefer melo since i use it more and it has pivot

but it wasnt on a stall team

[gleaming otter]

the rain check being weak to meloetta/entei is real unfortunate

[gleaming otter]

Fair

[minor cradle]

it was what came up to my mind first

[minor cradle]

why is the rain check being weak to entei unfortunate

also you could just run another mon anyways

[gleaming otter]

Meloetta/entei specifically since the close combat cooks you

You could run another non for close combat but you have to hope they don’t click v create on that lol

Unless that’s also the backup water in which case fair

[minor cradle]

the set i posted was to tank

special attackers

its not a physical wall at all

[gleaming otter]

The best sun mon is physical…
my bad

[minor cradle]

yeah it was mainly to tank the special attackers on sun and rain teams

which it does decently well

[gleaming otter]

probably yeah

[snow pike]

Why thunder

actually nvm why meloetta :p

[gleaming otter]

bulky normal with uturn

[tired comet]

I'm sure there's a better way to make a bulky normal with a pivoting move than using Meloetta...

Snorlax is right there, fuse it with something with a pivoting move.

Oh hi Snorcor, what are you doing here?

[gleaming otter]

not really, and the fusion above is an av regen fusion

snorcor serves a completely different function

and wouldn't do the same job at all

[gleaming otter]

• that's supposed to beat rain

[tired comet]

I guess if you aren't using Melo-P for anything, might as well do that.

[gleaming otter]

it's for a stall team

[tired comet]

Boy, it's rough handling all the weather explosive mons these days.

I'm out of teambuilding juices after making my thoroughly incompetent HO team... maybe I am really bad at IF Dex OU.

This didn't happen to me in Smogon

[minor cradle]

it was mainly for rain but in general its decently spammable and the para chance is pgood and screwing shit but yeah its a stall team so u can get away with like
Recover
Haze
Scald
Knock off with lefties or smth instead

[sudden girder]

how could I upgrade Crowcune with fusion?
(Calm mind Scald Rest talk Suicune)

[gleaming otter]

Gliscor, Clefable, anything that gives it recovery and can help fight off status

[sudden girder]

kyurem?

dragon water is pretty good typing and roost does count as recovery

am weak to status without rest tho

and I kinda wanna keep pressure

[cursive tundra]

One guy made it work in Hail

[sudden girder]

I was thinking outside of hail

[native helm]

Kyurem's got a lot of issues as a pokemon.

It's defensive spread of 125/90/90 is decent, and it's attacking stats of 130/130/95 are too, at least for Gen 4-5. Problem is 95 speed doesn't quite cut it for Gen 7. It got relegated to being a PP smaller in g7 OU versus things like toxapex. Bulky water types give it a ton of trouble, and it's pretty passive versus any setup sweeper that can shrug off an ice beam or earth power. Not to mention steel types; Jipex would eat kyurem alive.

What I suspect you'd wanna do with a kyurem fusion is basically run it as a janitor, something you clean up the match with once the rest of your team has dealt with all of their answers

It doesn't have good STAB outside of hail, it's physical attacks are almost exclusively Outrage, etc.

Ice dragon typing is good, if steel, fighting, and water weren't such common types

(Did I mention Kyurem has trouble with steel types?)

Any water fusion like Palkia will likely meet the same issue

You can get something decently interesting out of like a celebi or tangrowth fusion if you want to play up the stallbreaker side of kyurem, since now you have a Subseeder

Or make it a trapper with dugtrio or magnezone

[gleaming otter]

?

ice beam is a fine move to click

dragon less so but I think dmeteor fusions can still work

[native helm]

Brainrot. I conflated it with kyurem b, my mistake.

Still, it struggles with steel types, a lot

Celesteela ate it for breakfast in SM

Oh it got mega buffed in Gen 8

Ddance and icicle shot

• scale shot

[gleaming otter]

yup

[sudden girder]

The main mon would be Suicune, I just used Kyurem to give Suicune Water/Dragon Typing and access to roost

[cursive tundra]

Nah there’s better ways to make a Crocune

[native helm]

Suicune is only really limited by rest being it's main form of recovery. Grass water happens to be a good typing.
Why not tangrowth? Serves to stop any subseeders because grass types are immune to leech seed iirc

[quiet salmon]

problem is ur now neutral to fire

[sudden girder]

what would be a better way to make crocune?

[cursive tundra]

Anything that gives it an ability to use or a typing to stop Toxic

Suicune never had a real good ability, Pressure was pretty negligible except for high level matches

You’re going to go +6 so your hard effort to lose to Toxic with all the fat stuff is the #1 thing

[sudden girder]

so magic guard clef?

[tired comet]

https://pokepast.es/18f9f9daebdbe2ed
Tried to make.... something. I dunno, my only sucessful team is my sand team and I wanted to make something new.

Nothing I make is working...

[quiet salmon]

jigrowth and kyupex should definitely use max spd and max def respectively

i think the main problem you have is a lack of speed along with a somewhat lacking defensive core (you lose to fire/dragons like enteihaxorus and ursanite for example)

[tired comet]

I thought Slowtress could work against those, it tanks them but it doesn't do anything back.

[quiet salmon]

you just get 2hkod by vcreate and eq

[tired comet]

I really don't know what makes a good defensive core....

Well yeah VCreate/EQ on those things kill almost everything

[quiet salmon]

you just need to find mons that dont get 2hkod who either dont mind setup (unaware or through sheer bulk) or ko the mon in time before it sets up

[tired comet]

How do I not get 2hkod by V-Create though?

Kyupex handles it fine, but...

[quiet salmon]

fire resist

its why i load water grounds often

if you take this one for example

regirock and slowbro cover fire and ground v well while slowbro takes rock for regirock

regidragon takes water/grass/ice/electric quite well while ttar can switch into scary sweepers like hymega

[tired comet]

It's a bit concerning when you need 2 bulky fire resists just for V-Create though.

[quiet salmon]

it was mostly coincidental

i loaded regirock for the espeed/eq resist

it def helps though

[tired comet]

yeag

It's just so centralizing.

I wanted to make it a hazard stack team with a Bisharp/Dusknoir as a partner.

[void willow]

it obviously helps to have two checks against V-Create but technically it's not necessary as long as you play smartly and don't let your Fire resist get too low on health (Regen helps with that)

[tired comet]

Play smartly is the big thing

Togeking never seems to do anything. Am I using it wrong?

It's too slow to get through offensive mons, but doesn't have enough firepower to OHKO them.

[void willow]

Togeking is fantastic against slower teams; you just need to find the right moment to switch it in (pivoting moves like U-Turn and Volt Switch help with that)

it's a wallbreaker on the slower side; don't expect it to outspeed most opposing attackers

try to switch it in against a defensive mon

if they choose to switch out to something that outspeeds you, then whatever is coming in will likely take massive damage, if not just KO'd outright

depending on what you're up against, you'll likely have to make some predictions as well; don't blindly use a super-effective move against whatever is in front of you, they might switch into something that resists it and KOs you back

[sudden girder]

with blissey/Chansey not available, what is the premiere Special wall?

[analog coyote]

Blissey and Chansey are in the game...?

Unless they've been banned to ubers

Uh

Maybe I shouldn't repsond before looking at channel names sorry

[minor cradle]

toxtar and jigrowth r great regenvests

[sudden girder]

Is Grass steel a physdef or spd typing?

[quiet salmon]

spd

[sudden girder]

is there any way I can make houndoom work?

[void willow]

I guess it has a niche as a Dark-type with Flash Fire, but that's really about it

[minor cradle]

no

its just worse chandelure

[sudden girder]

then how would I run chandelure?

[minor cradle]

wdym

u just run it as a special breaker

[sudden girder]

Let me repharse it : what are some good fusions for chandelure?

I dont think toxapex/Chandelure is good

[snow pike]

I used chandelure/celebi once, with flash fire as a grass type (and quiver dance) but I think chandelure is probably better fit for choice sets?

[minor cradle]

i personally dont use chandelure that much so idrk

the only time i've properly used it was a swift swim mon in rain

but rain + swift swim is banned so

it just has a rough mu with toxtar

and theres other special breakers that usually provide better moves or abilities

[sudden girder]

Chandelure/Porygon-Z maybe?

[minor cradle]

i mean its ok

i still dont like it that much personally

[quiet salmon]

still struggles vs toxtar

[sudden girder]

I mean isnt that ok?
No one pokemon has a flawless matchup spread.

[quiet salmon]

most good mons dont instantly lose to another good mon

chandelure clicks tri attack on ttar for 40 then tries to switch out and gets ohkod by pursuit

[sudden girder]

Dont most special attackers get walled by blissey in regular Pkmn?
Or is being pursuit weak the crippling fact here?

[gleaming otter]

click tri attack again 5Heaf

Just win the knockoff/pursuit mixup

[quiet salmon]

being pursuit weak means you cant just switch out and try again

[snow pike]

Well yeah I mean if you die to pursuit you kinda have to stay in and attack again

But also chandegonz isn't very fast

[minor cradle]

it also just cant ever 2hko toxtar

unless its chipped beforehand

[gleaming otter]

hence why I said win the mixup
although I'd be surprised if you dealt 40%

[sudden girder]

Tbf they can also click knock, so staying in is risky.
While switching out might not be great either, depending on if you have a knock absorber

[minor cradle]

no?

they always click pursuit

thats just

a free kill

theres literally 0 reason you'd click knock off

in that situation

over pursuit

[snow pike]

Idk what evs they usually run
252+ Atk Toxapex Pursuit (40 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Chandelure: 162-192 (58.4 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
but yeah noswitch is still a 2hko with max atk whilst
252 SpA Adaptability Chandelure Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Toxapex: 102-120 (30.3 - 35.7%) -- 33.6% chance to 3HKO
Is barely a 3hko
So unless you chipped the thing alot (which is extra hard when it has regen) it's pretty much a guaranteed lose

oh opps forgot to test specs

[minor cradle]

it run max hp spdef

[snow pike]

252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Chandelure Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Toxapex: 150-178 (44.6 - 52.9%) -- 27.3% chance to 2HKO
This is more realistic if there are hazards but it still not great

Oh with spdf it def loses then

Lemme test

4 Atk Toxapex Pursuit (40 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Chandelure: 116-140 (41.8 - 50.5%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO
Still a 2hko kind of

252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Chandelure Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Toxapex: 112-134 (33.3 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Almost always in favor of ttar I think

[minor cradle]

252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Tri Attack vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Toxapex: 84-100 (25 - 29.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

[snow pike]

Hm

Did i forget a sta

[minor cradle]

0 Atk Toxapex Pursuit (40 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 116-140 (41.8 - 50.5%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO

[snow pike]

stat

[minor cradle]

i forgot to add

adapt

252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Chandelure Tri Attack vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Toxapex: 112-134 (33.4 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

[snow pike]

oh

yeah it needs to be heavily damaged to win the matchup
and there is still a risk of crits and the pex player has regen and can easily get back if they do get hurt

[minor cradle]

it also means

u just

get hazard damage

constantly

from switching in

and cant heal back

[snow pike]

chande right

yeah

[minor cradle]

and if u trick ur specs

u can ohko normal attackers

252 SpA Adaptability Chandelure Tri Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Entei: 234-276 (64.8 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

[snow pike]

yeah its a super unrealistic scenario where you actually beat it

[minor cradle]

cant*

also if u did trick ur specs on switch

they would also just

click pursuit anyways

u still cant beat it 1v1 lol

[void willow]

yeah there's a pretty good reason why Toxitar is one of the premier pursuit trappers in the meta

[minor cradle]

the only*

[snow pike]

time to run recover and conversion

[void willow]

I wouldn't call it the only one as I've seen some speedy pursuit trappers with choice band/scarf, but yeah it's definitely the most prominent one

[minor cradle]

what other mons run pursuit

genuinely

[snow pike]

bad ones

[void willow]

Krookodile, but very rarely (and it's not particularly good but it is an option)

[snow pike]

krookodile is like a rocks lead right

And intimidate

[minor cradle]

krook isnt a real

mon

[tired comet]

And Parting Shot!

[minor cradle]

realistically

[snow pike]

i forgot it had that

[tired comet]

-2 Atk gaming

[minor cradle]

too bad the user

of intimidate

is not a good bulky mon

that lacks recovery

[snow pike]

I think ive used krook before but it is not tanky enough

[tired comet]

[minor cradle]

that doesnt naturally resist vcreate and the other type doesnt resist ground/fighting

[snow pike]

i used it as a lead cuz of that
but there is better options unfortunately for it

Cuz the moves it gets are kinda cool

[void willow]

I like Krook/Entei with Scarf and Moxie; it's a pretty decent cleaner and can sweep in late game once the right checks have been dealt with

[snow pike]

speaking of parting shot

what is the best alomomola clone
Actually that doesn't have much to do with pshot i was just thinking of unbreon toxapex lol

as in slow regen wish pivot

but water dark not the best defensively

[tired comet]

Behold, flat fuck friday

[minor cradle]

probably just mola with a bulky dragon, ground or fairy

[snow pike]

not in natdex

[quiet salmon]

idt there are any good regen wish pivot mons

you can try jigrowth maybe but doesnt sound good without vest

[minor cradle]

ngl i forgot mola wasnt in reg dex

the only mola fusion ik is mola doublade

[sudden girder]

How valuable is Protect on Gliscor fusions?

I personally think it almost mandatory

[quiet salmon]

unnecessary

run roost instead

[sudden girder]

Doesnt that leave me vulnerable to knock?

With protect Gliscor becomes a knock absorber instead

Certainlly pivots exist, but you cant guarente your pivot is slower than the Knock spammer.

[quiet salmon]

scout first for knock

or do a double switch

[sudden girder]

you can scout with protect

is roost that valuable?

[quiet salmon]

yea bc you get real recovery

healing 62.5% is extremely valuable when taking big neutral hits

[sudden girder]

Fair.
But Gliscor kinda already has 4 MSS so I am wondering if roost is worth it

especially with fusion giving it even more moves to run

[quiet salmon]

if you run roost you dont run protect

and simply force a free turn where you toxic yourself

[minor cradle]

protect is fine in certain scenarios

you usually run it on stall or smth since getting a teammates boots or ur own orb knocked (before poison) would be devastating as fuck

[snow pike]

toxic orb also activates after switching from a direct switch so if you can't get to poison yourself immediately just wait for an opportunity to hard switch into your gliscor ig

[sudden girder]

anyone know any good cleric fusions?

(Healbell/Aromatheraphy + Wish )

[cinder remnant]

wait tf greninja is IF dex OU viable?

this a bug?

[quiet salmon]

its a visual bug

the validator will mark it illegal

[cinder remnant]

ah ok

[quick night]

So for the torunament thing, what are "DNA Doubles"?

[vernal vale]

It explains it right after

Its if dex doubles

[quick night]

I don't know what that means. It's just pokemon from a specific if pokedex?

[vernal vale]

Do u have the showdown open?

[quick night]

Yup

[vernal vale]

Ok so search for a doubles format

Gen 7

[quick night]

In the team builder, right?

[vernal vale]

Yes

[quick night]

Ah, so just any pokemon available to select under that ruleset?

[vernal vale]

[Gen 7] If dex doubles ou

Yea

[quick night]

OKay cool lol thank you

[vernal vale]

Anything thats valid there

[blissful brook]

Anything I should change? https://pokepast.es/d1688e0a86d3e64f

[quiet salmon]

most of the time for evs you just want to maximize either offense bulk or spe unless youre trying to live a specific hit or outspeed a specific mon

merciless being stuck on a mon with 63/53 offenses makes it basically impossible to use idt its worth pursuing

especially on a poison steel where your best option is bunker but a good amount of the time opps are gonna click eq

porychomp is an interesting choice but ultimately not great because normal is not a good offensive typing and you dont get much power out of your coverage

perishtrap sets want to be as bulky as possible because you want to live at least 3 turns, because of that you want recovery and bulk

enteis biggest draw is vcreate so you want to build around that, common set is enteihaxorus with vcreate dclaw/outrage eq ddance

meloettap looks very walled by fairies and steels, clanging scales doesnt do anything when outrage is physical so you should use something that hits steels or fairies like eq

also its missing evs

jolteon is saddled by bad attacks (wild charge is weak and has recoil, outrage only covers dragons and locks you in) so a better idea is something like klinklang? idk

wish doesnt fit here either because ddance means you want to click attacks

and overall the team really wants some kind of speed control because if something ddances on you they just sweep

the simplest fix i can think of is to lean into the 3 physical attackers angle and use some kind of screens team with setup spam so the opp cant setup on you first

@blissful brook

[blissful brook]

Yayy thank you

I'll improve it in a bit

[quiet salmon]

np

[blissful brook]

ok hows this https://pokepast.es/40773c1d2dd033d3

wait i forgot to change enteis ability

unnerve ig

[quiet salmon]

dual screen mons need light clay to maximize the use of the screens, also you really want pivoting to safely get your setup sweepers in
because of this id recommend something like registeelwhimsicott or umbreonklefki because they have uturn and pshot respectively
pexferro is no longer fitting of the team because it does really bad damage and the idea of a screens team is to just spam setup and steamroll so id use something like ursaringdragonite or something to have guts + sd/dd + espeed
same with meloetta
entei spread should be 252 atk / 4 spd / 252 spe with adamant or jolly nature
if you use band on meloetta it cant use ddance, something i thought of was tyranitar-meloettap with serene grace rock slide with dd, close combat, and knock off/sub
thinking the move is to be necrozma/garchomp for ddance + photon so you break through unaware, hold necrozmium so you get 142/111 physical offense and neuroforce and use fire fang to hit steels neutral/immune to flying

entei ability can be mold breaker again to break through unaware

[blissful brook]

Hows this looking https://pokepast.es/7a6a752b6e13f734

[quiet salmon]

garchomp really needs eq for stab

ursaring hurricane is not very useful because its spa is not good so better to hit steels with eq

roost maybe but personally id rather hit steel/flyings with fire punch or ghosts with crunch

[cinder remnant]

Do I got something missing?

[marsh radish]

Where can I find Eevee

[quick night]

So I don't really know much about pvp at all. Is this a decent mono type themed team?
Kogoruhn Ghost Gym leader team d:

[patent hatch]

There is a lot wrong with that team

Flame Orb on a random Mon

Yamask

Defensive Ghost/Psychic type

NP with one attack

Random boosting items on bulky pokemon when it should be lefties

3 Fire moves on Magcargo/Dusknoir

No Stab on a lot of the Pokémon

Wack EV spreads on a lot of the Pokémon

Hex with no way to status besides Flame Body which isn’t reliable

It’s just a lot of random moves on the Pokémon in general

I would suggest trying teams made by other people first and learning how and why they’re built before trying to build one yourself

[cinder remnant]

@lapis oriole does the single stage include legendaries?

[lapis oriole]

yes

[cinder remnant]

So legends are banned

[lapis oriole]

sorry, I looked at a glance

as long as it complies with the BST rule, you're fine

[cinder remnant]

no i get that but is pokemon like groudon allowed?

or just the OU bracket

OU legends*

[lapis oriole]

OU bracket

[cinder remnant]

ait

[lapis oriole]

all the events run off of OU (except Randbats since its randbats)

[cinder remnant]

@steady vessel do i need anything here?

[steady vessel]

aegitas is kind of odd ngl

also I find metamence mush deadlier with eq coverage

oops

shiz

I mean metamence is fine

[cinder remnant]

tbf its there to take advantage of people's setup sweepers

[steady vessel]

might want a haze user then

it'll do better

[cinder remnant]

hm

[steady vessel]

also ngl

[cinder remnant]

?

[steady vessel]

I run full defense tyrangon

and also run dragon dance

[cinder remnant]

idk rock steel just dies to any drain punch even with max defense

Its sole function is to set sandstorm up

Sandstorm is permanent in IF showdown

Im taking advantage of the weathers here

[steady vessel]

holy

I mean I too have like 12 teams for a tier but not the point

you love ttar huh

like me

[cinder remnant]

I wanna use rain teams but rain teams are banned in singles

[steady vessel]

oof

[cinder remnant]

I also have a snow team lul

[steady vessel]

thunder n hurricane much ?

[cinder remnant]

Nah just Scarf Water spout from Octillery

in doubles its not banned tho

[cinder remnant]

do you think a terrain team would work?

I mean there are no terrain setting abilities, so i had to manually use the move to set it

[marsh radish]

Anybody know what the party at treasure beach is? Day and time?

[cinder remnant]

u sure ur on the right channel?

[marsh radish]

Nope

[short crystal]

Does anyone want to give up their ideas for the Big Boss format? Seems really fun, but I'm having trouble figuring out what would be good.

[cursive folio]

pseudo legends sound pretty good on paper but i havent had time to test since ive been testing my genlock team

gen 5 has no water types by the way

[short crystal]

wait no way

what about uh

wow dang

The highest BSTs seem to be from mons that got a final evolution in a different generation, electabuzz/magneton/dusclops and so on

[cursive folio]

yeah

[short crystal]

Whoa, why can Garchomp learn Dragon Dance? Is that specific to Infinite Fusion?

[quiet salmon]

yes

[short crystal]

neat

[short crystal]

trying to brainstorm a rain team for big boss and realizing that the only non-LC mons are poliwhirl and quilfish

[hexed bluff]

@steady vessel @steady vessel

[steady vessel]

I've been summoned

what do you ask of me ?

[hexed bluff]

idk how that happened genuinely i was asleep

[potent jewel]

So I'm making a team for the Big Boss tour, how does it look so far?

~~Sadly my big boss choice doesn't have a custom ~~

Also this is just a funny invalidation reason to me

[potent jewel]

Changed a move on my big boss

[gusty burrow]

The Big Boss tournament is IF Dex, right?

[proven cave]

I think you have to pick one evo line for all the grunts to share, I don't think you can have bidoofs and swablus.

[proven cave]

I imagine it's supposed to be one or the other

[potent jewel]

Maybe we should ask for clarification

[proven cave]

Yeah, that would be a good idea

[potent jewel]

Apparently its pick one half and stick with it

[short crystal]

Ah, I've been assuming it was one or the other component of the big boss. Sad

Probably dual types are a good idea then - instead of being a monotype team, you could at least choose heads or bodies such that your grunts have different typings

[potent jewel]

Stuck with flying for the grunts because I chose swablu

Big boss isn't flying though

I think my team should be fine now

[short crystal]

I was thinking that stall-y teams might be kind of a liability because your line's weaknesses and bad stats will carry through your team. Like, Dusclops is a pretty solid NFE, but you just might not be able to deal with dark types.

[glacial eagle]

Came here to learn how to build teams better, an tips you would give for teambuilding in general? I tried making teams before only to end up having it not be as good.

What are things I need to look for or avoid?

[short crystal]

With Infinite Fusion, there are so many combos that the best way might just be to play a bunch of games, lose them, whatever, but pay attention to what your opponents are doing. What makes that fusion that swept you good? What abilities or moves does each mon bring to the table?

Once you have a basic grasp on what the strongest fusions and strategies tend to be, you can think about ways to counter or improve on them.

[glacial eagle]

That's the big thing with this game I get caught up on.

Making a fusion most of the time gives you a pokemon that can't do either of the things it's originals could do well unfused.

Drops in base stats is major.

[short crystal]

The base stat averaging does really bring everything down a bit. You just don't find stuff with stats as high as unfused stuff.

I think that makes typings, moves, and abilities even more important. Stuff like Regenerator, Serene Grace, even Quiver Dance are very strong when you can pick a fusion to offset the base mon's weaknesses.

Dusclops can hold Eviolite and has decent defenses - what happens when you fuse it with something that has reliable recovery instead of just Pain Split? What's the strongest possible combination with Sylveon's Pixilate? Etc.

[glacial eagle]

Yeah, thing is with Pixilate and other sets like that, I just find out that a move or ability was banned for being too good of a combination.

So from what I'm hearing.

pretty much every single fusion is maybe good at one or two roles, but can't get it done properly unless they have a good combination of moves and abilities to make up for the lackluster stats.

I'm gonna try to make another team for IF dex, then look for games to test it.

[glacial eagle]

Is this description accurate?

[blissful brook]

Any ideas for stuff to add/change? (Im new to competitive)

[glacial eagle]

I have no idea, but I'm also new and can do some games when I'm done with my team

Your doing IF dex OU right?

[blissful brook]

Yeah

Singles

[glacial eagle]

https://pokepast.es/1e6cf06ea6d44532

This was the team I was going to use if showdown was working atm.

Getting this error message

[gusty burrow]

The validator is currently down for all formats

[glacial eagle]

Damn

Right when I wanted to get back into the game

Does anyone know when it's getting fixed?

[gusty burrow]

Sun seems really good in the big boss tournament, since Vulpix is allowed and can be fused with a grunt

[gusty burrow]

Are Scyther/Misdreavus/Porygon2 allowed to be fused with the grunts (Eg, Boss of Gyarados, is Magikarp/Misdreavus allowed)?

[red spear]

I believe it’s been fixed

[glacial eagle]

sweet

If anyone is still up I'm down for a game or two

[short crystal]

Yep, you just can't use Scizor/mismagius/porygonz as big bosses

[short crystal]

Not the best abusers though right? I guess you could go Ivysaur/Weepinbell for chlorophyll and solar beam, but other than that you're just firing off fire moves

[short crystal]

I want to say Rain might be good just because of the 100% hurricane/thunder accuracy, but you have to use a turn to set up, or I guess fuse your big boss with Politoed and lead with them

[quiet salmon]

@lapis oriole just to check again does gen lock require you to load one mon from each gen that isnt the gen you picked

[short crystal]

Would anyone be up for doing some Big Boss testing this weekend? I don't have a good enough grasp on the IF metagame to even know what to prepare for.

[lapis oriole]

Yes

[quiet salmon]

welllll ok

[red spear]

So you can’t have:
1+6
1+5
1+4
1+6
1+7
1+2
?

[lapis oriole]

no, you can't have that

[red spear]

Alrighty I’ll have to change that then

[unique gorge]

They really should have made that clearer then

[lapis oriole]

fair, a few aspects of this are being done by the seams of our pants

[snow pike]

oh

I thought it was just gen like
for example gen 1+ anything

1+1
1+7
1+7

[void willow]

it makes teambuilding quite a bit more restrictive, but then again it applies to everyone so I think it'll be interesting to see what kind of teams people will come up with

[sudden girder]

A question : what are the rules for this "big boss" tournament, or rather where can I read the rules for it?

[short crystal]

https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/1Fpba9j-5IXxA7it2RBhXpMsAdvNrqpTx8ZZhD7SJ_vI/mobilebasic

[potent jewel]

In the Tourney Schedule in #announcements , but 1 thing it wasn't clear on is that for the grunts you have to pick one side of the Big boss if its 2 evo lines

[sudden girder]

thx

[short crystal]

That's right - your Big Boss and Grunts must all share a SINGLE evolutionary line.

Had to throw out all my brainstorming

[potent jewel]

Same

Well not all of it

[sand quiver]

how good is garchomp, how am i making this work? my thought was garchomp/scizor but someone recommended entei/garchomp and i'm wondering what else i could bring here

[void willow]

Ursaring/Garchomp is nice for Guts + Facade, with Ground hitting the Rock and Steel types that resist Normal for big damage; unfortunately this set struggles alot against defensive Ghosts (especially those with Eviolite and/or Unaware)

Entei/Garchomp, as you mentioned, is great since Fire and Ground are complimentary types and you also have access to a powerful nuke in V-Create; it's pretty versatile as a DDance sweeper (maybe with Sacred Fire to avoid the speed drop), wallbreaker (band), or revenge killer/cleaner (scarf). Unfortunately you have to be super careful around bulky Water types who will absolutely delete you in one hit if they survive your attack

[sterile glacier]

I can't tell you if it's good but Zoroark/Garchomp is funny. It's very fast, has two immunities to keep the illusion up, and gets a wide array of obnoxious moves

[quiet salmon]

103 is not very fast

[snow pike]

it is decently fast
but probably doesget outsped by most meloetta-p so its easy to revenge kill with that if you know its disguised

[gusty burrow]

Its also means that Meloetta-P can freely U-Turn around to avoid 50/50s

[sand quiver]

ursaring or ursaluna?

[sand quiver]

oh nvm im in natdex

[gusty burrow]

For Gen Lock, can you have two pokemon from the same generation?
Eg, your generation is 1, can you have an articuno/zapdos?

[quiet salmon]

nop

[quiet salmon]

you must have a fusion of 1-2, 1-3, 1-4, 1-5, 1-6, 1-7

[cursive folio]

i thought it was like

say I had gen 5

you had to have all your Pokémon fused with gen 5 Pokémon

like I thought 5-1, 5-3, 5-3, 5-7, 5-2, 5-1 would still fly because it was still following the rule of “your Pokémon must be from the same generation”

i thought it was just that way in the examples to explain better, cuz these rules do NOT say i need to represent every generation

guess ill be doing some last minute team rebuilding if there’s some sort of clause that wasn’t explicitly stated

[red spear]

Oh also please use the Monogen format as opposed to IF OU

It’s in IF Extras and should validate properly following the rules

[south mist]

Yeah

Some of the mons are OU but others are PU or above to UU

[cinder remnant]

I wanna make a hail team

Any advice?

[gusty burrow]

yeah, don't~ What format?

[sudden girder]

hail or snow?

[patent hatch]

IFDex is before hail got changed to snow so Im assuming hail

[gusty burrow]

It is hail, however there's only one Snow Warning mon in Aurorus and no mons that can abuse hail

No slush rush

[quiet salmon]

you abuse hail by running stall

[gusty burrow]

Ice stall seems wild, there isn't too much to abuse it. The only decent Ice Body mon is Regice (emphasis on decent)

[quiet salmon]

kyurem is good

you pair it with ph/regen/maybe mg or overcoat

[gusty burrow]

It seems like not enough reward for forcing your team to be immune to hail, but I haven't seen a hail stall team in action

[loud eagle]

not that it's any good but delibird also has snow warning (and rapid spin but that's about all it has going for it)

[cinder remnant]

I just checked that Snow Cloak is banned

Back to Sand team

Rain team is banned too like damn

I mean rain isnt banned, Swift swim + drizzle is

Tbh if we have like the tapus, I would use Koko to make electric team with all THE SPORES RUNNING AROUND

[gusty burrow]

I forgot that Delibird was given snow warning, and it honestly might not be terrible as a hail lead? Just run Sash with Spikes/Taunt Just checked and it doesnt learn any hazards by itself in IF Dex LMAO
Still wouldn't be viable because there aren't good enough hail abusers

[cinder remnant]

From what I experimented with, Delibird is worse off stat wise, but its one of the only ones who learns Aurora veil

Aurorus not Learning Aurora veil is beyond my understanding

[gusty burrow]

Aurorus doesnt learn Power Gem either

[cinder remnant]

We're so near perfection

[void willow]

on a related topic, I think it's unfortunate that many Ice-types don't learn Freeze-Dry until Gen 8

[tidal radish]

Idk how to team build

[sudden girder]

Do you have a fusion you like?

and what format would you like to play in?

[gusty burrow]

Spectate the finals tomorrow and steal the team

[quiet salmon]

isnt the tour today

[void willow]

not everyone lives in the same timezone