showdown-teambuilding

[vestal rivet]

can't really take hits very well on the physical side

[honest umbra]

I mean there's a situation in which it works

[gusty burrow]

You can setup on a lot of things

You dont SD in front of a wallbreaker lol

[honest umbra]

it just seems weird to have a mon that's wholely reliant on switching in front of a special attacker and setting up w/o dying

[vestal rivet]

well

[honest umbra]

that's like

[vestal rivet]

there's a lot of fat mons with pivoting moves

[gusty burrow]

You can set up in front of a defensive pokemon

[main rapids]

doesnt technician actually add more than adaptability

[gusty burrow]

Yes it does

[main rapids]

cos technician 40 bp move goes to 60 then stab 90

[vestal rivet]

yap

[honest umbra]

i mean defensive mons are fucked anyways considering how hard everything hits

i mean they exist

[gusty burrow]

Defensive mons are great wdym

[vestal rivet]

tbh i think as time goes on we'll see offense doing better and better in this metagame tbh

lol

i just think

[honest umbra]

depends

[vestal rivet]

it's really really easy to build fat fucks

and it's harder to build offensive mons who can handle the new fat fucks

but as people figure it out

[honest umbra]

The "defensive mons" I use are just pivot mons with u-turn so my offense doesnt die instantly

[vestal rivet]

we'll see more games randomly end because someone guessed wrong with their defensive team in a 80+ turn game

i also think zoroark is secretly broken but society is not ready for that yet

[honest umbra]

ehhh

yeah

[gusty burrow]

I've only ever seen 1 zoroark

[honest umbra]

sufficient Special attack and Speed with a good illusion can put in work

[vestal rivet]

it may have been me

[honest umbra]

it's just

[vestal rivet]

also

[honest umbra]

hard to use

[vestal rivet]

you dont need special attack even

tbh

[honest umbra]

i mean yeah

[vestal rivet]

i used this in my draft league today

[honest umbra]

garchomp is garchomp

[vestal rivet]

it is one of the only things from my draft league i plan on actually keeping around

[main rapids]

when I was making a rain team I made this set

[vestal rivet]

😂

[honest umbra]

i get so mad about zoroarks

[vestal rivet]

garchomp is super strong though, yeah

[honest umbra]

because I'm never ready for it

[vestal rivet]

but its just the matter of showing like

[main rapids]

nvm I deleted it

[vestal rivet]

there are a variety of zoroarks you can use

dark/ghost is probably the best imo

but you are limited to special attacker sets

actually...

[main rapids]

was zor suicune

[honest umbra]

i wish off meta shit was viable

[brisk pebble]

Having a prankster support with that can be scary. Ppl can't tell if you sent out your support or garchomp. And if it's the latter, it's a free turn to setup if they switch to a dark type

[main rapids]

the idea being if they make a bad guess with illusion you can nasty plot water shuriken in raiin

[vestal rivet]

this might be good

[gusty burrow]

Thats very slow for an offensive pokemon

[vestal rivet]

the point is

using ur illusion for sd

[honest umbra]

and then what

[vestal rivet]

then u get sneak

for prio

[honest umbra]

at that rate

that's just shitty espeed

[vestal rivet]

i have made my thoughts on espeed known, yes

😂

[honest umbra]

yes

I dont care

just have steel types

pixilate, refigerate (for the insane), or adaptability, it doesnt matter

[vestal rivet]

the problem is

ppl will just learn

to use magnezone

like

[honest umbra]

oh yeah

[vestal rivet]

we'll just get to the point where u have pursuit trappers and magnet pull

and then

[honest umbra]

did anybody here participate in the lobby tour

[vestal rivet]

there is nothing left to stop espeed / boomburst

[honest umbra]

because I was busy and didnt have time to take notes on the mons used

[gentle pine]

Magnezone is truly just one of the best Pokemon in general

Easily my favorite electric

[vestal rivet]

mhmmm

[honest umbra]

true

magnet pull is annoying af though

I dont like trapping in general

[gentle pine]

And it fuses extremely well to most special attackers and gives them steel

[honest umbra]

typing is goated

if its primary was steel so it could be a head it'd be really good

[vestal rivet]

well

tbh

[main rapids]

I don't think espeed needs to be banned

[vestal rivet]

i think u just fuse it as an electric type and thats fine

[main rapids]

the only unfair user is azurill dnite

[vestal rivet]

damn

azurill dnite is like the most fair user imo

😂

[honest umbra]

mfer about to ignore porygon-z dnite

[gentle pine]

Yeah, I was about to say

[vestal rivet]

sylv dnite is probably the most annoying imo

[gusty burrow]

Azurill is stronger

[gentle pine]

Adaptability is craaazy lmao

[main rapids]

the bear dnite set with guts flameorb is good too it's just not broken

[vestal rivet]

the bear set is just a jumpscare

[honest umbra]

it doesnt have the defensive stats to stay in

base 86 and 83 defense with 87 hp is nothing to scoff at when you can invest defensively because of espeed

is it amazing defensively?

no

but it holds its ground

[vestal rivet]

i saw a mixed poryz dragonite a while ago

and that thing

was kinda spooky

[gentle pine]

My first playthrough of IF, I ended up using an adaptability PoryZ/Gengar. That was fun.

[honest umbra]

the fact that people use it for physical solely for espeed is goofy

[vestal rivet]

its almost like that espeed move is kinda crazy huh

🤪

[gusty burrow]

Its espeed, you dont have to stay in

[honest umbra]

i think my first playthough of IF I used eevee/gengar because I was unaware of pory

[vestal rivet]

there's a reason why almost every petmod that results in pixilate dnite u inevitably see espeed / dnite / ate abilities getting banned

[honest umbra]

what I mean is that porygon dnite can

[vestal rivet]

and i would rather not see the latter two get banned because the latter two have actually fun uses

[honest umbra]

and that's valuable

[gusty burrow]

Pixilate isnt the problem, its espeed and boomburst

[honest umbra]

I agree

[vestal rivet]

ok now tell me u agree with banning them and we can 🤝 and go home together and maybe makeout

[honest umbra]

but we let gliscor stay

so war

[gusty burrow]

Poison Heal... we will have to wait and see

[honest umbra]

I hate it

[gusty burrow]

Its annoying, but not broken for now

[honest umbra]

12% recovery with immunity to status is annoying as fuck

and gliscor has a solid defense stat

[gusty burrow]

At the cost of an item slot. Yeah its really annoying though

[honest umbra]

and people use leftovers

for 6% recovery that can be knocked off

it's expensive duh

[main rapids]

its better lefties

[honest umbra]

but it's worth using

[gusty burrow]

Its definitely better, not arguing againt that lol

[honest umbra]

because a wall being immune to status moves is fucking horrid

and it has roost

because fuck you

that work you put it?

doesnt matter

[main rapids]

like honestly if u could play vs stall every game

[vestal rivet]

ehhhh im not super sure that ph is broken yet tbh

[main rapids]

glislax with lefties would own if you can switch into tox

[gusty burrow]

Poison Heal is always on the verge of being broken in every OM

[honest umbra]

I had a traumatizing battle agaisnt six gliscors before species clause was properly implemented

[vestal rivet]

yeah

tbh

[honest umbra]

i hated that game

[vestal rivet]

i think pre species clause was also just kinda like

clownshoes stuff

u could have 6 pex's on ur team

of different varieties

all of them good

LOL

i def dont blame yoshi for trying it out though

[gusty burrow]

I ran double Gliscor

[gentle pine]

I basically had this. Don’t remember which item I had.

[honest umbra]

https://pokepast.es/570f01bd121f8d00 pre species clause team

I loved that team tbh

[vestal rivet]

mismagius user

[gentle pine]

Obviously, it would probably be best with scarf for comp then change the status moves.

[vestal rivet]

🤝

[main rapids]

why protect

[gusty burrow]

Wait does that Marill/Marowak still work?

[honest umbra]

idk what I was snorting when I put choice scarf on a nasty plot pokemon

[honest umbra]

no

[vestal rivet]

it doesnt, no

they banned thick club

and uhhh

the other one

[honest umbra]

I said pre species clause

[vestal rivet]

light ball

[honest umbra]

it was my first team lol

[gentle pine]

That’s just what I had on my first playthrough because I had absolutely no clue what anything was gonna have and I wanted to be able to scout.

[main rapids]

marill is worse than having stab on espeed with azurill

[honest umbra]

and marowak has espeed?

the point was to have a raw 960 attack

and good defensive typing

and scare the shit outta people

it had substitute

I had to revert some changes from ages ago for nostalgia so it's not 100% accurate

[honest umbra]

my first playthrough was violent struggles and then I picked up a chansey/shuckle with eviolite

and nothing mattered anymore

[vestal rivet]

i abused azurill to the end of the first playthrough

is all i remember

lol

[honest umbra]

also ended up making two whole sprites because of a honchkrow/kingler fusion I was using

and then never made a third one so I never got spriter

[main rapids]

i just made a ninjask parasect and passed boosts to a sweeper

[honest umbra]

vibe

[gentle pine]

I did Chandelure/Ttar

Super bulky

It also had leftovers

[gusty burrow]

Same but with Ninjask/Lucario

[main rapids]

unban sporeeee

do something like a baton pass clause where u cant have spore and prankster

[vestal rivet]

dark types are immune to prankster

grass types are immune to spore

[main rapids]

ik

[vestal rivet]

there's enough counterplay...

[gusty burrow]

Why would you want Spore to be unbanned

[vestal rivet]

we have sleep clause

[main rapids]

im not the one with the data

[vestal rivet]

just let spore be free

[gusty burrow]

Forget how balanced it is, it just isnt fun

[main rapids]

but when yoshi said breeloom with spore was top 5 usage id imagine it was with prankster

[honest umbra]

^

[gusty burrow]

Breloom was actually pretty common with non-prankster mons with setup

[honest umbra]

ignoring how it can essentially invalidate a team slot unless you're prepped

[vestal rivet]

i guess thats fair but also im not about to gatekeep what people find fun

if someone told me they like spore

i would be like

"yeah that makes sense"

well

[gusty burrow]

Sleep (and freeze) are kinda dumb mechanics

[vestal rivet]

thats a little much

[honest umbra]

i disagree

they just hate other people

also why isnt usage rates public

[gentle pine]

This is just something random that popped into my head and is mostly trash with a gimmick.

[honest umbra]

i mean

[vestal rivet]

yoshi mentioned earlier that they'd send usage stats to people

[gusty burrow]

Absorb bulb doesnt activate

[vestal rivet]

but it should probably be public

i just dont know the like

[honest umbra]

why isnt it

[gusty burrow]

They sent the top 10

[vestal rivet]

logistics of it lol

[honest umbra]

ah yes

the people who already know the meta game

they totally need that

[vestal rivet]

no, the top 10 in usage

[gusty burrow]

They sent the top 10 used mons

[gentle pine]

Why not? You still get hit with water compaction, right?

[honest umbra]

oh

[gusty burrow]

No

[honest umbra]

what are they

[gusty burrow]

LMAO

[honest umbra]

and is it up to date

[gentle pine]

Welp

Sad

[vestal rivet]

incorrect

😭

[main rapids]

i like spore so much at one point i was running compount eyes butterfree mew to recapture the magic

[gentle pine]

Yeah, I was boutta say

[vestal rivet]

do not worry time walk

[gentle pine]

So it should work

[vestal rivet]

i will not gatekeep ur fun

i will ask for it back

[gusty burrow]

Oh wait its water compaction not water absorb, nvm

[gentle pine]

lol

[gusty burrow]

mb

[honest umbra]

i dont actually dislike compound eyes sleep powder

[gentle pine]

Still pretty trash tho lol

[honest umbra]

I just hate prankster spore

[gentle pine]

This

[honest umbra]

but I dont fundamentally hate prankster

[vestal rivet]

use a dark type!!!

[gentle pine]

Most Op thing in existence tbh

[main rapids]

what were they

[honest umbra]

I dont want to be forced to use something I dont wanna

[vestal rivet]

i dont want to have to slap a ground type and a flying type / mon w levitate on every team i have ever made

but sadly pokemon disagrees with me

[honest umbra]

gliscor moment

[vestal rivet]

we are already at the point where we are forced to use things we dont wanna use

[honest umbra]

someone run an all self fusions team

[gentle pine]

You don’t need a flying type if you have levitate

[vestal rivet]

||and also boomburst and espeed make this worse||

[honest umbra]

didnt ask

espeed can be played around

spore is just

you have it or you dont

[vestal rivet]

i play around spore

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1037847044905254962/1120505777212375061/dabnarok.gif

[honest umbra]

spore prankster has a very small set of solutions

[vestal rivet]

i miss people using whimsicott breloom

it was free wins...

[honest umbra]

as compared to the things you can do

[gusty burrow]

For the 20th

[honest umbra]

raikou is suprising

[vestal rivet]

also plz dont yap about other people being obtuse and then act obtuse yourself

it is a very poor look

[honest umbra]

true

[gentle pine]

It’s just great for electric and good stats

[vestal rivet]

i am sure u are better than this

[gusty burrow]

Kecleon made the list lol

[gentle pine]

Good ole protean

[vestal rivet]

raikou is actually

worse than jolteon

[gusty burrow]

Because of that one guy

[honest umbra]

what does kecleon have

[main rapids]

throwing off the stats by playing 400 games

[vestal rivet]

protean

[gentle pine]

just protean tbh

[gusty burrow]

One guy used only Kecleon

Its terrible

[vestal rivet]

https://tenor.com/view/evil-laugh-rub-hands-patrick-star-evil-plan-gif-15072939

[gusty burrow]

Ambipom moment

[vestal rivet]

time to play 100 games on 10 different accounts at the same time to inflate espeed and boomburst statistics

[honest umbra]

tf was espeon doing

[vestal rivet]

espeon is just the best magic bounce user

[honest umbra]

true

[main rapids]

u think im joking?

[gusty burrow]

Espeon is actually a... usable... lead

[vestal rivet]

yea

espeon has some decent fusions

[gusty burrow]

Espeon/Galv is the best webs mon

[vestal rivet]

its just

a psychic type

😭

[honest umbra]

I mean

yeah true

I was gonna comment on fighting types

but there arent any lol

[vestal rivet]

well

fighting type is at least good

[honest umbra]

as a type yes

[vestal rivet]

yea

[honest umbra]

one slight issue

[vestal rivet]

we just have

the most ass fighting types

[gentle pine]

Fairy is ultra common

[gusty burrow]

Fighting would be good if there were any decent pokemon, there are so many steel types

[honest umbra]

that's just cause of sylveon and clefable

[honest umbra]

hitmonlee is something

[vestal rivet]

fwiw

[honest umbra]

unburden memes

[vestal rivet]

i think there are some decent fighting types

[gentle pine]

Fighting moves are nice to have tho

[gusty burrow]

Hitmonlee isnt that good

[honest umbra]

It's good in a certain case

not universally

but it's a decent sweeper in the right team

[main rapids]

jumpleaf is the fastest sleep powder user u can have in sun

[vestal rivet]

hitmonchan gives fighting + a lot of spdef

[gusty burrow]

It doesnt have enough raw power, it needs to set up with unburden

[gentle pine]

Lucario (you use steel instead) and Blaziken (you use fire instead)

[vestal rivet]

and rapid spin

[honest umbra]

what does blaziken have over infernape

[gusty burrow]

Dont use Hitmonlee for rapid spin lol

[vestal rivet]

not a lot

[gentle pine]

Speed boost

[honest umbra]

banned

[gusty burrow]

banned

[gentle pine]

Except it’s banned

[vestal rivet]

i said chan!! chan!!!

[gusty burrow]

Ninjask erasure

Oh

Dont use that either

[gentle pine]

It does have bulk over infernape tho

[gusty burrow]

Its bulk is not good

[gentle pine]

But that’s also not something you’re looking for from it

[honest umbra]

the issue with bulky fighting is fairy

[main rapids]

okay

i seem to remember

in the actual if game

[gusty burrow]

If you want rapid spin, run Donphan or Forretress

[honest umbra]

^

[main rapids]

triple fusions have all 3 abilities

[honest umbra]

untrue

but cool

[vestal rivet]

i dont think they do

[main rapids]

or was that just like the zapmoltcuno battle

[honest umbra]

zapmoltcuno

[gusty burrow]

They have all 3 hidden abilities

[gentle pine]

Ye

[vestal rivet]

zapmolticuno is also

3 pokemon at the same time

[gentle pine]

They do have all 3 types tho

[main rapids]

yea

[vestal rivet]

its a little different from a normal pokemon battle

[gusty burrow]

The hoenn triple is a decent unburden sweeper

[vestal rivet]

cant wait for this to not be true anymore

🤪

[main rapids]

ik ive been abusing swampteliken while i can

[vestal rivet]

any day now...

[main rapids]

insane spread

[honest umbra]

dragon types

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[vestal rivet]

anyways yea here's an ingame look at a triple fusion

no 3x ability

[main rapids]

problem i was having is that needing to waste a turn on grassy terrain kills ur tempo

need tapus

[honest umbra]

tapus are gonna get quick banned i bet

terrain is so strong

[main rapids]

acrobatics kills most at +2

[gentle pine]

Or Rillaboom. That would also be fun

[gusty burrow]

Oh dear god gen7 terrains

Lele is getting banned instantly

[honest umbra]

plus

[main rapids]

that would mean they add glide

[gentle pine]

Ye

[honest umbra]

better fairy types

[vestal rivet]

i already mentioned it but

[honest umbra]

that's terrifying

[vestal rivet]

if is probably not getting more mons

[gentle pine]

I mean

[honest umbra]

not en masse

[vestal rivet]

after meloetta

[gentle pine]

They added like 40 more than planned lol

[honest umbra]

wait really?

[main rapids]

honestly the most trouble i had was with stall/ unaware

[vestal rivet]

they were at critical mass before the latest big update

[main rapids]

ran rockslide for a bit but like

[vestal rivet]

there was like

a breakthrough that let them add more

[main rapids]

acro is insane

[vestal rivet]

but iirc thats why it was like

[honest umbra]

huh

[vestal rivet]

a more strict number

[honest umbra]

eh

[vestal rivet]

they DID add more than planned

[honest umbra]

we wait till 2050

[vestal rivet]

i will be too old by then

🫡

[honest umbra]

honestly

[main rapids]

i wish the meta were just like

gen 6/7 flat

not random mons

[honest umbra]

I just want gen 5 pokemon tbh

[main rapids]

trying out nat dex and it's fun

u have better protean users for 1

even if it is nerfed

[gentle pine]

I wanna see somebody like Wolfey or PokeAim do some videos about IF Showdown.

[vestal rivet]

i saw blunder make a post about it

thought he'd make a video but

😭

[main rapids]

pokemon challenges said hes doing a tourney on stream

[gentle pine]

Sick

That’ll probably be the most we realistically get out of it.

[honest umbra]

man

[gentle pine]

There’s definitely a few random fusions out there that people haven’t thought of.

[honest umbra]

true

[main rapids]

like around the 20th of dec

[honest umbra]

most of the viable stuff has been somewhat seen though

[gentle pine]

Some sort of unknown monster

[vestal rivet]

i dont think so tbh

[main rapids]

im trying to figure out how to get HO hazards to work

[honest umbra]

generally we know what mons are good fusion material

[gentle pine]

Most likely something that’s born out of necessity to be against the meta

[honest umbra]

yeah

[main rapids]

the problem is getting a good sleep move on galv

[gentle pine]

Like Bramblegast

[honest umbra]

but the meta is so diverse that it doesnt work so well

[gentle pine]

For VGC last season

[vestal rivet]

i was working on this before i started working on my draft league

i leave it to u

[vestal rivet]

holy based alert

[honest umbra]

ghost types dominate the special attacks

I had a thought

not that there arent other options

[main rapids]

i wasnt keeping momenteum well enough cos i was trying to abuse grassy seed swampteliken

[vestal rivet]

try air balloon tbh

[main rapids]

having to waste a turn kills u so hard

[vestal rivet]

ur usually bulky enough to take a hit

[brisk pebble]

There are a few ghost types that specialize in physical attacks. Like Doublade, Banette, Trevenant

[vestal rivet]

how could u forget

dusknoir

😠

[gentle pine]

Ye

[brisk pebble]

Hmm, i consider it more of a bulky threat than a physical sweeper tbh

[gentle pine]

Doublade is just a good fusion in general

[honest umbra]

am I the only person who's suprised they dont see many latios

[gentle pine]

Just gotta find the right pokemon to fuse it with

[vestal rivet]

latios kinda just feels like

[main rapids]

this was my other lead set

[brisk pebble]

i see a decent number of them. They're mostly just special sweepers

[vestal rivet]

too well rounded in some ways funnily enough

but i think its pretty good

[honest umbra]

might be my luck then

[vestal rivet]

i have a lot of IDEAS with lati

[honest umbra]

I havent been as active lately because I ran out of fun ideas

[brisk pebble]

they're usually paired with electric types like Raikou or Jolteon though

[main rapids]

THE HIGHEST BST GHOST IN THIS GAME ITS SO OVER FOR GHOST LOVERS

[vestal rivet]

🥲

[honest umbra]

eh

[brisk pebble]

i mean i get u want an electric type that's immune to ground attacks, but Dragon type just gives it weakness to ice, dragon, and fairy

[honest umbra]

we have the best special attack stat

[main rapids]

the problem i was having with latios is too many fairy steels around, you cant just click draco on a choice set

[vestal rivet]

most of these are not bad btw

lol

[main rapids]

probs me lol

[gusty burrow]

At least some ghosts get spectral thief or spirit shackle now

[honest umbra]

i mean I think of latios because it's fast and fits hyper offense

[gentle pine]

As far as Doublade fusions go, this is easily my favorite.

[brisk pebble]

they hit hard, but offer not much else in terms of utility

[vestal rivet]

no i mean

most of those weaknesses

dragon and fairy are not ran as coverage moves

dragon and fairy both are like

[brisk pebble]

I prefer the Clefable Unaware variant

[vestal rivet]

the most telegraphed things to get hit by

[gentle pine]

I’m sure there’s a far more optimal EV spread

[vestal rivet]

except in case of zoroark

[gentle pine]

I just like being immune to poison

[vestal rivet]

if you want a minor optimization you can make on pokemon without access to recovery

make them have odd hp instead of even hp

[honest umbra]

what is this

[vestal rivet]

its like

super super small

but

[gentle pine]

Especially with how common Pex fusions are

[honest umbra]

why do you have an alt

[vestal rivet]

🤷

[main rapids]

for rocks rounding?

[brisk pebble]

oh, i like to test stuff

[gusty burrow]

why not

[honest umbra]

lol

[vestal rivet]

ye

[honest umbra]

just test stuff on your main

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[vestal rivet]

lets u switch in 4 times instead of 3 times

assuming ur not rock weak

[brisk pebble]

what makes u think i play 1 game at a time?

[honest umbra]

ah

that

[brisk pebble]

testing stuff is faster on 2 accounts lol

[honest umbra]

true ig

[vestal rivet]

you could just play two games at the same time on the same account

lol

[brisk pebble]

i'm not much of a climber, i just like interesting gimmicks

[brisk pebble]

I don't think i can? They restrict me to one game at a time

[honest umbra]

show me your most interesting gimmick then

[vestal rivet]

nah ive played upwards of 8 games at the same time

do not ask

[honest umbra]

I need inspiration anyways

[honest umbra]

insanity

[brisk pebble]

This is still my favourite and probably most viable gimmick

[vestal rivet]

i was trying to speed run an account to 1600 before actually trying to ladder like a normal human being in gen 6

so i was just playing

[brisk pebble]

I had to build an entire Sun team just to accomodate it

[vestal rivet]

a bunch of games at the same time

[honest umbra]

what purpose

also I meant like a team

but neat

[brisk pebble]

oh... how do i share teams again?

[honest umbra]

pokepaste

[gentle pine]

That’s something I never would have thought of

[gusty burrow]

I remember fighting this and I got jumpscares by mind blown

[main rapids]

i was trying this as a stall breaker but it still doesnt kill special def walls 😭

[brisk pebble]

https://pokepast.es/cec05cfa584f7d69

[main rapids]

cos u have to make it timid to outspeed certain scarfers

[brisk pebble]

Yeah, but recently it's been less successful, and the other team members have had to carry it

[vestal rivet]

tbh on something like this

[main rapids]

like noivern porygon and noivern sylveon

[vestal rivet]

i would not even bother with sun

u just use that

to make defensive pokemon disintegrate

[gusty burrow]

How do you have a tinted lens mon with 3 attacks that is still walled by steel/fire

[vestal rivet]

bug poison be like

[honest umbra]

I dont wanna talk about it

[brisk pebble]

Why Mind Blown without Magic Guard?

[honest umbra]

i dont

sometimes I'm silly ig

[vestal rivet]

funny you should mention that

i actually

[main rapids]

like you have to hit 267 speed

[vestal rivet]

am planning a mind blown set w,o magic guard for my draft league

lol

[main rapids]

so you have to be timit

[gusty burrow]

What is 267 for?

[brisk pebble]

In all my tests, Mind Blown without STAB is just barely usable in Sun, but it's something that doesn't OHKO walls

[gusty burrow]

I hit #7 and i still dont know the speed tiers lol

[main rapids]

with chlorophyl it outspeeds scarf noivern fusions

[vestal rivet]

it outspeeds scarf pory + noivern

[main rapids]

in sun

• crit

[vestal rivet]

the shorter answer is outspeeds scarfers with >113

[main rapids]

the idea was to be able to wall break even when they swap in resists

like chiyu overheat memes 🙂

[honest umbra]

chiyu woes

[main rapids]

and you can ignore drops from draco etc

[brisk pebble]

hmm...

[main rapids]

putting urself in blaze range is so chad

[vestal rivet]

🫡

[main rapids]

honestly make it blaziken so u can set up rocks

sorry

infernape

[gusty burrow]

Use infernape so you get stealth rocks

[main rapids]

in blaze range thats 338 power

[vestal rivet]

😔

[main rapids]

make it sun it's 506

[vestal rivet]

😔

i would love to, certainly

[main rapids]

sowwy dee

[vestal rivet]

its ok

speaking of which if anyones interested i can drop the replays for the games i played in that today

but i was just gonna make a video after the first round is finished

[main rapids]

go for it

[vestal rivet]

ill just post them in #showdown-general

so as to not flood the teambuilding chat

[gentle pine]

Kinda gimmicky. Anybody thought about using Aerodactyl/Rampardos for no recoil Head Smash?

[gusty burrow]

I've seen that with Aerodactyl/Talonflame with Brave Bird and Flare Blitz (dies to rocks though)

[vestal rivet]

i think blaziken aerodactyl is probably the better version of that, slightly less fast but a more real attack stat

[gentle pine]

I just thought of Rampardos cuz highest attack out of all legal pokemon

[vestal rivet]

(still dies to rocks though)

rampardos does have some pretty interesting fusions tbh

[gentle pine]

And you just can’t ignore stab head smash

And it’s fast

[vestal rivet]

this is uhhhhhh

something

u kill urself

but like

[gentle pine]

lol

[gusty burrow]

You should Choice Band Head Smash, now

[vestal rivet]

nothing WANTS you to kill yourself on them either, ykwis?

i think if you seriously considered this

id run stone edge > fire punch

and just clicked head smash if you

really wanted something to just

die

[gusty burrow]

Rock Slide would be more consistent

But also you want something to hit non-grounded steels

[vestal rivet]

well steel flyings still arent happily taking choice band head smash

steel levitates

thats what the u turns for

sometimes you just gotta accept you aint the dude for the job

[gusty burrow]

You generally want to click buttons with a rocks weak mon

[vestal rivet]

u-turn is a button to click!

i dont disagree its just like

idk ive mentioned it before but u got 6 mons on a team

u dont have to have all the answers on one guy

usually having all the answers on one guy makes that one guy less effective, if anything

for example, consider: the opponent sees terrifying headsmash inc

and says

"oh no i should go into my steel"

and you u-turn into magnezone fusion

now the next time you get the dumbass headsmash bug inside

it's a much more immediate threat

[gusty burrow]

I'm saying theres very few scenarios where you would click rock slide/stone edge over fire punch

(and not head smash or u-turn)

[vestal rivet]

well stone edge is like

the not suicidal head smash

LOL

if you actually need to keep it alive for an extended period of time

[gentle pine]

This is something I’m using in my current playthrough, and figured it might be decent competitively.

[vestal rivet]

i also think this mon is borderline ass fwiw

i am just yapping about the potential use of it

[gentle pine]

Zero resists for this moveset

[quiet salmon]

not good

[gentle pine]

Competitively, I also figure there’s more use out of intimidate obviously. But also 50% toxic is fun imo.

[quiet salmon]

ability boosts one irrelevant coverage move and one mediocre one

[gusty burrow]

It doesn't really do any one role well

[quiet salmon]

it might not have resists but at the end of the day ur a slow mon spamming 80 bp moves

[gentle pine]

If Wave Crash was in the game, I’d be using that with Rock Head

[quiet salmon]

does gyarados even get wave crash

[gentle pine]

I actually don’t know lol

[quiet salmon]

im 99% sure it doesnt

[gusty burrow]

It does not (also that's a gen9 move)

[quiet salmon]

thats why guy said if

[gusty burrow]

Basculin gets this

[gentle pine]

Realistically, I would need to drop poison fang for Ddance, then swap Crunch for something better and do Intimidate

But that’s very obvious, and I like doing weird shit

[gusty burrow]

Not much point of Tyrantrum over a better dragon then

[gentle pine]

Garchomp fusion boring, regardless of how good it is

Could do Hax, I guess

Then I could do Mold Breaker for some utility

Also looks cool

[honest umbra]

@brisk pebble https://pokepast.es/f395a31f161d4cf0 in case you wanna mess with my psychic terrain team for whatever reason

p' sure you can make something better than me anyways

[quiet salmon]

mold breaker dd be like

https://tenor.com/view/clone-clones-buzz-lightyear-toy-story-gif-21609842

[gentle pine]

Exactly my point

[honest umbra]

it works

[gentle pine]

But you also complain when I show a completely unseen set

So pick one

[quiet salmon]

if the unseen sets were good i wouldnt criticize it

[brisk pebble]

Hmm, i'm not doing showdown much recently tbh, losing interest real quick

[honest umbra]

fair enough

[brisk pebble]

Theorycrafting is still fun though

[main rapids]

okay

how do i calibrate the damage calc for fusions

[vestal rivet]

you can just use showdowns calculator and input bst manually

its a pain in the ass for on the fly stuff during games if the timer is on

[honest umbra]

someone mod it in now

[vestal rivet]

the bst, typing, etc. is all editable

[honest umbra]

make an infinite fusion calc

[vestal rivet]

would be nice but would be a huge undertaking

[honest umbra]

it's really just math

[vestal rivet]

so i will not ask anyone for it

if someone did do it though that'd be hype

[honest umbra]

I mean if you can put together a head/body thing you can basically math out the stats and abilities

[vestal rivet]

well for the existing calculator already you just put in the abilities yourself lol

[honest umbra]

then it's just math

[vestal rivet]

it just comes with a predetermined ability based off the set you input

[honest umbra]

though I really cant understand how the math works

why does 50 and 100 when weighted toward the 100 give 83 and the weighted toward the 50 give 66

what is the formula

[vestal rivet]

2*stat / 3 + stat / 3

[honest umbra]

oh

i see

[vestal rivet]

head is biased for hp statk and spdef

body is biased for atk def and speed

[honest umbra]

I know the head body bit

just not the math

[vestal rivet]

ah, yup

[honest umbra]

it sounds really simple but ehhh

I dont know how to make a site

[gentle pine]

Does life orb damage get stopped by magic guard or rock head?

[vestal rivet]

magic guard yes, rock head specifically states it does not block life orb damage

[gentle pine]

Ok

Thought so

[main rapids]

bro im crying

im sobbing

will noone rid me of this meddlesome hugepower dnite

if im 252 into hp

for some reason i dont think 200 speed is going to cut it on a sweeper

[snow pike]

Rate my defensive core

[gentle pine]

At that point, just use return to avoid recoil and it’s should still be guaranteed 2hko

[quiet salmon]

post stats

[main rapids]

sheerforce stops it 🙂

[gentle pine]

Does it?

[vestal rivet]

yep

[gentle pine]

Thought sheer force only stopped positive effects

[vestal rivet]

yeah uhhhh

dont ask tpc why it blocks life orb damage

they probably dont know

[gentle pine]

Sheer force also stops life orb?

[honest umbra]

very good for special attackers though

[main rapids]

did you know sheer force boosts flare blitz cos it has a 10% burn chance

it still recoils

it's just the most interesting sheer force move

[brisk pebble]

Sheer Force stops secondary effects. Strange enough, it means it stops Life Orb's HP drain, while retaining the 30% boost

[gentle pine]

That doesn’t sound like it’s supposed to work like that lol

[brisk pebble]

Similarly, Magic Guard also stops Life Orb's HP drain while retaining the 30% boost

[brisk pebble]

It's been like that since ever

[gentle pine]

I knew magic guard did

[vestal rivet]

yeah dont worry people have thought that forever

[main rapids]

i forgot to give the dnite band

"just have a ghost in the back"

[snow pike]

screenshots stopped working suddenly so uh
Pyukuful: 60/70/76/35/103/35
Jinine: 96/106/86/100/93/96
Stuncor: 97/85/111/69/91/74

[quiet salmon]

looks like it gets wrecked by mold breaker stuff

[gentle pine]

Why Stufful over Bewear? Draft or something?

[snow pike]

The special defense is ridiculous after eviolite

[main rapids]

it's weird cos recoil moves dont get boosted by sheer force

[quiet salmon]

60/103 is not very impressive

[brisk pebble]

Recoil is not a secondary effect, it's a cost

[gusty burrow]

Fluffy

[main rapids]

ik

[snow pike]

I'm running max hp max spd

[gentle pine]

Bewear also gets fluffy

[main rapids]

the secondary effect of life orb is "more power" tho

[snow pike]

it is bulky enough to roar out most setup sweepers

[brisk pebble]

Then what would be the primary effect>?

[snow pike]

Unaware is another option

[quiet salmon]

primary effect is damage

[gusty burrow]

Damage

[brisk pebble]

Naturally, Life Orb's primary effect is the 30% boost. Secondary effect is the HP drain

[gusty burrow]

I wish there was a decent offensive unaware pokemon in the core series

[brisk pebble]

It's too bad Mind Blown operates under the same category as Self-destruct and Explosion, otherwise i'd love to experiment with Rock Head + Mind Blown

[quiet salmon]

what does offensive unaware do

[snow pike]

skeledirge?? I guess

[gusty burrow]

It would ignore defensive stat boosts

[vestal rivet]

i mean

[snow pike]

although it ends up being defensive it has a move that guarantees spa boosts

[vestal rivet]

defensive stat boosts arent super relevant

skeledirge definitely is capable of killing people so

[snow pike]

it's useful for pokemon using Calm mind

[brisk pebble]

You obviously have not seen the Chef cook

[gentle pine]

Gen 9 pokemon would absolutely break IF

[main rapids]

maybe they should ban espeed

[snow pike]

National dex

[main rapids]

nat dex is fun

[gentle pine]

Ye

Gholdengo lmao

[brisk pebble]

Let the Chef cook at your own risk

[quiet salmon]

you dont need offensive unaware to beat that

you just need unaware

[brisk pebble]

Unaware won't protect u from a 360 BP stored power

[quiet salmon]

then it was your fault you let it get that high

[gusty burrow]

Espathra 🙃

[main rapids]

let someone have a moment ana

jfc man

[brisk pebble]

it has base 371 def and 342 sp.def, and has Unaware. You would need high base stats to break it right off the bat

[gusty burrow]

Tbf there aren't any dark type unaware pokemon yet

[brisk pebble]

Well it's a set i no longer use myself

[quiet salmon]

is this cm id

[brisk pebble]

cm id?

ah, yes

[main rapids]

calm mind iron def

[brisk pebble]

i mean sure, Cosmic Power would've worked as well while freeing up a move slot... but... idk...

[quiet salmon]

bad

[gusty burrow]

CM + ID is good

[quiet salmon]

you wouldnt do any damage

[gusty burrow]

What about Clefable/Registeel

[brisk pebble]

It's actually better... and the 2nd version of the Chef

[quiet salmon]

so its just walled by any dark or did you remove recovery

[brisk pebble]

Bastiodon variant is just the only one i bothered taking a screenshot of

[gusty burrow]

Klefki might also work, emphasis on might

[brisk pebble]

Actually this set ran Moonblast instead of Stored Power for fun, for the slow torture of an already agonizingly slow game

Let's just say my 1st few games i liked to mess around

It's too bad Clefable doesn't get Draining Kiss

[gusty burrow]

Wait it doesn't? Strange

[brisk pebble]

if it did, i'd drop Soft Boiled for Draining Kiss instead

[quiet salmon]

too easy to pressure

[brisk pebble]

Meh, it's just a fun set

[quiet salmon]

youd need mulitple cms to get good recovery

[gusty burrow]

Mono-moonblast is enough, you can muscle past spdef steels at +4

[main rapids]

the ou equivalent set runs a special fighting move

no recovery

[brisk pebble]

Generally the biggest issue i had with the Chef was that there were so many EQs around, and Poison Heal Gliscor walls it

[main rapids]

relies on leftovers

[gusty burrow]

Isn't the OU set Cosmic Power/Soft Boiled/Body Press/Stored Power?

[main rapids]

im thinking of

whats the name of that charcadet evo

[brisk pebble]

the biggest victims of the Chef were people who thought they could SD/DD in front of it

[main rapids]

the psychic one

[gusty burrow]

Armarouge

[brisk pebble]

Well i'm sure more ppl are less... unaware now, so i doubt the Chef would work anymore

[main rapids]

ya

[brisk pebble]

was fun while it lasted

Don't let the chef cook

That said, i do still see people using my old Chef and new Chef in ladder from time to time

[gentle pine]

What’s the strongest dark/poison levitate you could make? No weaknesses sounds fun.

[main rapids]

weezing umbreon is what ive seen

[gentle pine]

Most common because it’s an easy one to get

[main rapids]

gives parting shot n bulk

[gentle pine]

Something with Hydreigon would probably be better

[main rapids]

krook if you want strong knocks

poison + hydre

[brisk pebble]

Only if u want to make it hit hard. But in terms of bulk, Umbreon/Weezing is better

[gentle pine]

But also there aren’t many good poison types

[brisk pebble]

That said, Umbreon/Weezing is also pretty predictable in what it does

[main rapids]

the problem with hydregion is that you want it to be the head, which means its passing on dragon type

[gentle pine]

For nat dex, iron moth and hydreigon lol

[brisk pebble]

dark

[main rapids]

OH

sorry

ur right

its first type dark

so u need 2nd type poison or mono poison

[gentle pine]

Gengar only gives ghost, right?

Nah, it gives poison

Sick

[main rapids]

gengar does give u the right types its just like

mid base stats

[gentle pine]

Ye

[gusty burrow]

I've seen Umbreon/Weezing and Hydreigon/Tentacruel

[brisk pebble]

This has yet to leave most of my teams

[main rapids]

fuck it double levitate

[gentle pine]

It do be giving some decent bulk

But for offense, nat dex looks like Iron Moth

And regional looks like Gengar

[quiet salmon]

dark poison w levitate is pretty overrated

[gentle pine]

Ye

[quiet salmon]

well

its ok for plot stallbreaking stuff

[gentle pine]

It’s not great offensively

[quiet salmon]

no its decent offensively

[gusty burrow]

Theres not much psychic stuff

[quiet salmon]

id just rather replace levitate w something else

[brisk pebble]

Doesn't need to be good offensively, just defensive enough to be either a good pivot, or something to set up hazards

[gusty burrow]

Its good to have a ground immunity not weak to rocks

[gentle pine]

A lot of fairies also have steel

[quiet salmon]

but this is physdef

poison dark better suited spd

[main rapids]

you know that the problem is

2hko by boomburst +azunite espeed

[gusty burrow]

You have steels for the former and uhhhhh for the latter

[gentle pine]

Oooooh

[brisk pebble]

ghost

[quiet salmon]

it “beats” grounds

[gentle pine]

Hydreigon/Venomoth

Quiver

[main rapids]

honestlyi think it's better to have resists

[gusty burrow]

Use Hydreigon/Yanmega

[gusty burrow]

It gets knock off

[brisk pebble]

it would yeah... do u have a Pokemon that resists everything?

If there was a perfect solution to everything, people would be using it

[gentle pine]

For nat dex, you could make a fairy/steel with levitate with Bronzong

[gusty burrow]

Fire

[gentle pine]

Yeah. Only weakness

[quiet salmon]

Ability: Regenerator  
Fusion: Tyranitar  
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD  
Careful Nature  
- Poison Jab  
- Knock Off  
- Pursuit  
- Dragon Tail ```
better psn dark

[gusty burrow]

Doesn't beat ground though (which I think was the point of the conversation but I dont know, better in every other way though)

[quiet salmon]

why do u need to beat ground

maybe if u need an sf check but no dark psn levitator has high enough spd

[gusty burrow]

ground immunity is nice

[gentle pine]

The original thing was dark/poison with levitate cuz 0 weaknesses

[quiet salmon]

regen is nicer

[gentle pine]

Not just “beat ground”

[quiet salmon]

zero weaknesses is overrated when ur sacrificing other abils or stats to do so

[gentle pine]

Ye

[quiet salmon]

most grounds either have mold are defensive (thus easier to switch into anyway) or can hit you neutral with other stab

[brisk pebble]

Most grounds have mold breaker? 1st i've heard of it

Did they fuse their Garchomps with Gyarados or Haxorus?

[quiet salmon]

something like that

[brisk pebble]

So... only Garchomp fusions with Gyarados or Haxorus has mold breaker... not most grounds

[quiet salmon]

i put three categories in there

[light lion]

Is there a command on showdown to tell you what the rules for a format are?

[quiet salmon]

/om

or /tier

[light lion]

thanks

[brisk pebble]

So if it isn't mold breaker, a defensive ground will be a non-threat to it unless they're planning to setup, or those that hits neutral... i mean everything hits dark/poison levitates anyways, so nothing different

[quiet salmon]

im saying the benefits are not very significant compared to the opportunity cost

[brisk pebble]

That said, yeah, Dark/Poison is overrated. It needs to either be useful or threatening to be worth considering

Most ppl trying to create a mon without weakness just slaps whatever works and thinks no weakness = powerful

[gentle pine]

Random thought for nat dex. Annihilape/Registeel?

[brisk pebble]

But then again, Dark/Poison levitate users like Umbreon/Weezing are very useful. Able to set up supports/hazards, slow u-turns or parting shots

[quiet salmon]

rage fist banned

[brisk pebble]

As usual, it always depends on what your team needs

[gentle pine]

Ah

Sad

Makes sense tho

[gusty burrow]

Annihilape is still usable

[gentle pine]

And it’s nothing special for the unlimited one lol

[quiet salmon]

im wholly unconvinced of umbreon weezing but partly bc ppl dont run protect so they click wish then get knocked to low health so they cant click wish anymore

[brisk pebble]

i use Hydreigon/Ariados because i needed a Sticky Web user that's immune to ground moves
It having no weaknesses while being bulky, and having slow u-turns makes it perfect for my Sun team

[gentle pine]

Yeah, but you’re realistically using it mainly for rage fist

[quiet salmon]

ghost defiant is a niche

[gentle pine]

Ye

[quiet salmon]

youd need a polt donor though

[gentle pine]

Annihilape/Registeel is super bulky still. Decent attack. But you’re not just gonna go wreck people with it in 1-hit tho.

[gusty burrow]

It has massive 4MSS

[quiet salmon]

no recovery

Erm… Skil Isue

[snow pike]

They usually get smashed by a strong move
Which in the case of my team only 2 Pokémon have one so I guess it's decent against stall because of toxic immunity and psychic moves immunity

And the levitators also have an immunity to one of the best offensive types

[quiet salmon]

why would stall use psychic moves

[brisk pebble]

lol

true

[main rapids]

are azunites usually speed invested

[snow pike]

stored power sets idk

[main rapids]

or hp eviolite

[quiet salmon]

i invest in speed

[brisk pebble]

I wouldn't

[main rapids]

whats the meme

[quiet salmon]

you outspeed walls

weezing umbreon is just fodder for stall because it accomplishes no progress

[brisk pebble]

fair

[quiet salmon]

best it does is burn something

[gentle pine]

I don’t think you were here earlier to see it, but what would you think about this thing?

[quiet salmon]

why is it sky drop

[gentle pine]

Idk

Just kinda picked a flying move cuz there aren’t many good ones

[brisk pebble]

... hmm...

[quiet salmon]

band head smash eq fire punch filler

if there arent good ones dont use one

[brisk pebble]

Uh... i wonder... would Gale Wings Sky Drop work as i think it would?

[quiet salmon]

no

idts

[brisk pebble]

Was thinking it would have priority on the 1st attack, but no priority on the 2nd, so if u were a slow mon, u could effectively deny your opponent any actions aside from switching

i should probably test

[quiet salmon]

it should be prio both

[gentle pine]

At best, it would make it 0 priority even if it worked?

[brisk pebble]

Was Sky Drop -1 priority?

[gentle pine]

But I think negative priority moves are unaffected by anything

I think?

Idk

[quiet salmon]

no

[gentle pine]

Nvm then lol

[quiet salmon]

but if it was thats even more reason not to use it

[gentle pine]

But yeah, with over 500 speed you could just not allow opposing mons to do anything unless they have priority.

[main rapids]

ok ay so

we're cooking

[brisk pebble]

Technically u want less speed, so u don't go 1st on the 2nd part

Assuming u want to run Gale Wings Sky Drop

will be testing if priority works that way

hold all thoughts on it

[quiet salmon]

isnt the main problem that u cant hit waters

[gentle pine]

i really just picked an annoying flying move that wasn’t fly

Cuz fly allows switch-ins

And didn’t have brave bird

[quiet salmon]

or grass steels

[gentle pine]

Which they really should add to aerodactyl

[main rapids]

going 2 be running a mag pull

could just run thunder over scald

[quiet salmon]

mono water shuriken

[main rapids]

but like i dont feel like it needs to sweep everything immediately

[quiet salmon]

just replace flash cannon

[brisk pebble]

Damn... it doesn't work as i hoped...

I thought it would've worked like the Prankster Copycat Fly/Dig gimmick

[gentle pine]

I forgot about prankster copycat lol

[main rapids]

for what

[quiet salmon]

ice beam, tbolt, something like that

why was it steel again i forgot

[main rapids]

lucario

needs to be steel to resist espeed / pixelate espeed