showdown-general

[austere relic]

Just looking at everything in the builder, this battle mode looks insane

[wary flame]

Yeah

[austere relic]

Especially since natdex can use Everything.

[wary flame]

Very much so

I messaged you

[wispy ember]

I can make it happen

Can't make it myself, but can forward it

[wary flame]

Thank you

[glacial bane]

Awesome

Showdown kitchen is getting build

[sweet void]

Man I really am loving IF OU. Probs some kinks need to be worked out somewhere but it feels like such a powerful, fun format

[young saffron]

its def breathing life into my dwindling interest in comp

[sweet void]

Also anyone have any intresting no guard sets? I've been running a scarf machomp and it's been okay but I feel like I can do better

[pure breach]

I agree, I’m having a lot of fun on it too, and it’s great to see everyone else also enjoying it and being so active 🥰

[young saffron]

ouuu feels good to jump 70 places in a day

[fast elm]

the hype is crazy for sylvern

[young saffron]

nobody says gg anymore

[fast elm]

i'm sorry :/

[young saffron]

makes me feel bad when i win from whimsicott/breloom spore spam

[fast elm]

maybe the no gg is deserved then...

[glacial bane]

I really don't get it

[young saffron]

boomburst gets to 202 bp with pixie plate pixilate

[glacial bane]

It's just okay

[young saffron]

im glad im not the only person using chandelure/porygon-z

[fallen epoch]

Ikr?

I'm trying to use it with adaptability

It kinda works

[wary flame]

How is usage going to be calc

[glacial bane]

I really feel like people are way too focused on the tiering at hand

[lapis vessel]

I've been running specs sylvern on sticky web hyper offense and it goes so crazy

[fast elm]

wdym?

[wary flame]

Like is going to be mons based or fusion based

[lapis vessel]

chunked a vaporeon toxapex fusion for 33% on switch it's absurd

[fast elm]

oh well i kinda have it as all three

we're not gonna be tiering mathematically

just helps show whats common

[wary flame]

How is tiering going to be done the

Then

[fast elm]

well since theres no lower tier formats its really just the ou/uber border that matters most

so if anything is seeing lots of usage and has limited counters we'll take a look at banning it

[glacial bane]

Are there plans for lower tiers?

[fast elm]

we could have them but theres probably not enough people to have ladder matches in em

[glacial bane]

I see

[young saffron]

theres hardly enough for ou

[stray terrace]

Looks interesting

[fast elm]

if we get more activity then yes we'll consider

[stray terrace]

I'm assuming Huge Power fusions are on the chopping block

[pure breach]

They’ve been chopped

[fast elm]

azu has been chopped

[stray terrace]

Good lol

[fast elm]

marill is still around

but you have to fuse with a marill

[lapis vessel]

dragmag is actually pretty good

[stray terrace]

Dragmag goes crazy, we can get some really good magnet pull mons

[wispy ember]

I have seen people use that actually

it wasn't particularly strong

[stray terrace]

Also may I suggest whimsicott drifblim

[wispy ember]

but it has seen some niche use

[fast elm]

yeah thats why we keep it around

[stray terrace]

Prankster Strength Sap

[pure breach]

I’ve seen some Marill ones too, but definitely nothing crazy lol

[wispy ember]

whilst this

this is stupid

[fast elm]

more intersting than banning the whole ability

[lapis vessel]

I've been using a pretty good clefable + magnezone fusion with an air balloon and fire blast to remove steels

[fast elm]

yeah prankster is up there in use

[wispy ember]

Prankster spore, toxic, strength sap and aromatherapy Sableye/Parasect

[pure breach]

Yeah I think prankster might be the source of a few issues

[wispy ember]

is a thing I do not want to meet again

[stray terrace]

Btw how does the whole move expert thing work?

[pure breach]

Would be such a shame to ban it tho

[wispy ember]

Can you ban specific combos?

[fast elm]

if you create a valid combination in the teambuilder then the move will show as legal

[wispy ember]

Like prankster + specific move

but not prankster itself?

[pure breach]

Yes, but would rather not

[lapis vessel]

doesn't always work for all steels like jirachi entei but I do have other mons to handle that

[pure breach]

But yes

[stray terrace]

Huh, cool to know

[young saffron]

i wish no soul the sadness of realizing their fav combo is banned

[fast elm]

the combinations can be found here: https://infinitefusion.fandom.com/wiki/Move_Expert_Move_Lists

[stray terrace]

Anyone come up with solid Oblivion Wing sets?

[young saffron]

putting many flowers on the grave of contrary lurantis fusions in natdex

[wispy ember]

LOL

[stray terrace]

Noivern + Dark and Nasty plot seems the go to

[wispy ember]

a few people have yes

Zoroark/Gliscor is a notable one

[young saffron]

this is why everyone hates playing and watching vgc rn tbf

[astral yoke]

That's the case. You'd be surprised at how many thing smogon is official

[pure breach]

Prankster is not the issue with VGC at the minute

[astral yoke]

everyone? who are u speaking for?

[pure breach]

But I would not mind seeing Paradox and Ruin mons gone

[wispy ember]

I was just curious whether prankster was ever banned from comp

[young saffron]

no i mean the ridiculously open rulesets

[astral yoke]

Never

[wispy ember]

yeah, I got that answer

[lapis vessel]

kid named flutter mane

[young saffron]

ive seen like 50 billion posts asking for the return of the og regulations

[wispy ember]

but that's also because prankster has never had mons with spore attached to it

[pure breach]

kid named Iron Hands

[lapis vessel]

him too

[astral yoke]

The only time i hated VGC was during ORAS with the whole Primal Kyogre/Groudon nonsense

[young saffron]

pre-paradox sv vgc was really fun

[astral yoke]

but otherwise i've adapted and loved doubles format

[pure breach]

100%

[wispy ember]

dunscy, check #staff

[young saffron]

illegal channel

[pure breach]

Post was fun too, I stopped with reg e

[lapis vessel]

me personally I'd like to see infinite fusion get a doubles format that could be pretty fun

[wary flame]

Do I have news for you

[wispy ember]

It's a shame that doubles are currently "AG"

[wary flame]

Yeah

[lapis vessel]

nevermind I am blind

[pure breach]

I could get around to actually making a rule set for it at some point

Make a DOU or even VGC format for it

But again, not sure if it’ll get much use

[lapis vessel]

I'd definitely play

[young saffron]

a ggless grind to top 25

[vocal bolt]

I would really appreciate it some of us have been playing doubles without any ubers already, so also having sleep clause etc would be nice

[pure breach]

I can look into it for sure

[fast blade]

Bro....

Kingler does not learn waterfall?????

[glacial bane]

Crab can't go up a waterfall

[fast elm]

the movesets are base gen7 without the infinite fusion additions rn

maybe it learns it in game?

[young saffron]

maybe ppl only say it when they win

[lapis vessel]

don't have a segway into this but I was trying to use aurorus because I like it only to find out it doesn't get power gem for some reason, even though it should be capable of learning it (and it also gets meteor beam via tutor in gen 8 so maybe power gem could be a replacement for that in IF dex?)

[wary flame]

It gen 7 move sets for now

[fast blade]

I wanted to abuse sheer force waterfall off the 130 base attk smh

[fast elm]

doesn't seem like it learns power gem in game either

[lapis vessel]

it doesn't

which is a certified game freak moment™️

[vocal bolt]

Can't you use Liquidation?

[gentle matrix]

aurorus couldnt learn aurora veil until it was tm either

[wispy ember]

I gotta say, I hate the fact that you need to log in every time you reload

[lapis vessel]

idk why it can't learn power gem it literally has gem looking things on its body other than game freak just forgot

[lapis vessel]

I was about to mention that and how silly that also is

[vocal bolt]

Game Freak hates Aurorus fr fr

[lapis vessel]

they do 😔

"yes let's make this special attacking rock/ice pokemon and give it 99 base special attack and its best rock move is ancientpower"

[fast blade]

If showdown allows you to use it, it shouldn't. Liquidation is not attainable in-game

[wary flame]

Crabhammer maybe?

[gentle matrix]

is it not attainable at all?

by any mon?

[glacial bane]

me too

[vocal bolt]

It is there

[vocal bolt]

Crit Chance, Recoil and Stat debuffs to yourself do not work for Sheer Force so sadly you can't

[tiny wadi]

this dude named harror

is my arch nemesis man

[fast blade]

Liquidation is move tutor only in gen 7 as far as I'm aware, and the game does not have a liquidation move tutor.

[wary flame]

I forgot we talking about sheer focus

[fast blade]

Correction, toxapex gets it on level up. So with the introduction of 6.0, Liquidation was introduced as an available move, but only to toxapex

[fast blade]

Yeah it also allows assault vests which are unobtainable in game. It needs some fixes

[fast blade]

Yeah that's why I wanted to use waterfall but I'm shocked to find kingler can't learn it

[astral yoke]

It can be obtained ingame

[fast blade]

So I decided to just use feraligatr instead of Kingler unfortunately

[fast blade]

How?

[young saffron]

yea if they banned vest id be mad mad

[fast blade]

They shouldn't ban it, they should just...make it available in game lol. But until it's available in game vest should be banned

[astral yoke]

Triple Battle Lounge iirc, but it's random

Same way to get scope lens

[fast blade]

Nope

https://infinitefusion.fandom.com/wiki/Triple_Battle_Lounge

Not a listed reward

[astral yoke]

Oh

[fast blade]

Assault vest being legal in showdown is just a mistake by the devs, it's unobtainable in game

Same with kingler learning liquidation apparently lol

[young saffron]

assault vest should be added tbh

i think its kind of silly not to add such a staple item

[gentle matrix]

is it in the game?

[wary flame]

I mean it wasn’t to the main games until gen 6

[young saffron]

yea and its been a staple of comp since

just like heavy duty boots

[fast blade]

Yeah lol

[fast blade]

Only via cheats

[young saffron]

my fav newer item is loaded dice personally

makes breloom even more fun

[fast blade]

Loaded dice changed everything it's wild

[feral anchor]

Theres a person in the sevii islands that can sell you any item, including sashes and vests

[fast blade]

Huh? Never heard of that. Do you have a wiki page of it or like proof it

[pastel sun]

how do you guys feel about these guys. i know its not the best team but im not good at comp ok

dry kibble n bits is definitely the scariest one though. if i make a new team im probably gonna port in dry kibble n bits

oh i forgot to give the entei fusion a silly name oh nooo

[fast blade]

Assault vest is unobtainable smh

[pastel sun]

i should probably put leftovers on dry kibble n bits. tbh

make that bitch harder to kill

[fast blade]

@pastel sun your entei set makes no sense

[pastel sun]

yeah

i just needed a 6th mon and couldnt think of anything

[fast blade]

Did you mean to have rock head on it?

[pastel sun]

probably?

[fast blade]

Because it has sheer force but zero moves that benefit from it really

[pastel sun]

i just like. spaced the hell out making that guy

[fast blade]

Well iron head

[fast blade]

Give it flare blitz and head smash

And rock head

[pastel sun]

it has flare blitz

[fast blade]

Or I meant use it with rock head

Not just like by itself

Sorry I explained badly

[low merlin]

https://replay.pokeathlon.com/#replay=itsemilynt-itsemily-1700328073424 turns megas on fusions does work, its only on heads tho

[fast elm]

and only in natdex ag

[pastel sun]

ohhh you meant switch to marowak or tyrantrum right

[fast blade]

I'm 2-0 with my team so far smh

[pastel sun]

is cold war any good btw

[astral yoke]

Saw someone use my Clefable/Bastiodon.
Would've been happy... had i not destroyed it

[pastel sun]

cold war is named cold war for a reason

i press draco meteor and whatever i am looking at dies

[fast blade]

Yeah go tyrantrum instead imo

[pastel sun]

ouuuh i should make a ~THEME TEAM~

[low merlin]

i don't think anyone has used any of my fusions yet

[pastel sun]

none of my fusions are competitively viable~

[wary flame]

What your fusions

[low merlin]

https://if.daena.me/artists/its.emily/

[feral anchor]

Seller in boon island sells different items every day. Check it out yourself

[wary flame]

The only one might be the the pory sly one

[pastel sun]

whats the best thing to staple to gliscor

i want to focus on its high defenses

also in terms of another mon is serene grace iron head used enough to justify running steadfast

[feral anchor]

Regirock or registeel

[pastel sun]

yeah i used regirock

[fast blade]

I don't have time to check in game right now, but there's nothing on the wiki about it

[placid wigeon]

How long's Simple gonna last?

[sweet void]

Until ppl learn to start running unaware mons 😈

[fast blade]

It's attached to bibarel who is trash, so probably forever

Aside from SD+Espeed+Normal STAB for Bibinite

It's fine

[astral yoke]

Yep, that's its main usage

[fast blade]

The bulk sucks and it doesn't hit that hard

You have to use Bibarel as the head, who's head stats are literally 79/55/60 lol

[astral yoke]

Overall not something to be worried about for now. As long as u have proper bulky stats, u can probably survive and hit back

or if u have your own extremespeed user, you're likely gonna hit first

[placid wigeon]

That makes sense, I just got caught off guard by a Simple Geomancy

[fast blade]

It also has to survive the first hit to set up the swords dance, and it's defenses aren't that impressive 83/73/73

[astral yoke]

With Geomancy meaning Celebi, that's even worse. The stat increases doesn't protect itself from other priority users, and its only priority attack is Aqua Jet (which Geomancy doesn't boost). It gains sp.def bulk and some stats, but overall nothing too noteworthy, certainly not for the overpowered bullshit that is IF's meta

[fast blade]

And 80 BP STAB off 117 attack isn't a crazy amount of firepower on its own

[astral yoke]

Overall, Simple is a powerful ability crushed by Bibarel's uselessness, and no fusion can save it lol

[fast blade]

Yeah, so it's strong enough that it's definitely viable but it's not overwhelming

That's why people tend to use screens to give Bibinite a chance to set up and sweep

[astral yoke]

Espeed also gets blocked by ghost types too lol

[patent sandal]

I saw a guy experimenting with Klinklang for Gear Shift

Didn't do anything, but I thought it was neat

Wonder if there is a way for Klinklang to be viable, it has a nice type and good signature moves

[west pecan]

https://tenor.com/view/walter-white-falling-fast-gif-18043850

[astral yoke]

Dark types block it completely

[tiny wadi]

top 50

yippie

[young saffron]

ive seen klinkchomp a few times

[patent sandal]

Is Smeargle viable in Ubers or its just there to stop it being OU?

[patent sandal]

Oh, that sounds nice

[young saffron]

its inferior to jirachi/garchomp imo but its still an option

[patent sandal]

Great type + the DDance it always wanted, but even better

[fast blade]

Oh dude klinklang is absolutely viable

[tiny wadi]

shift gear tho

[patent sandal]

Shift Gear is like 2 Speed 1 Attack right?

[tiny wadi]

yes

[patent sandal]

Just better DDance

[young saffron]

yea

but chomp rocks band better imo, + having meteor mash lets u snowball even further with serene grace

[dusky steeple]

Which one do yall think is best?

oops

now I saw there's a chat for it

[patent sandal]

This poor soul lost to Balls

I love being low elo where this kinda of sheesh works

[dusky steeple]

no way lol

it's that one trainer team right?

[fast blade]

Technician+Gear Grind+Shift Gear=explosions

Though getting the full damage is kind of unreliable unfortunately

[patent sandal]

Inspired by him, I gave them some better moves

But yes, balls

[dusky steeple]

@fast elm great work with the quick fixes for the ladder

goodbye boys

[patent sandal]

This tempts me to try AG

Mostly for Aegislash, but still

[dusky steeple]

Nah, AG is toxic

Blissey+Aegis is infuriating

[patent sandal]

Yeah, I usually stay clear from AG, too much bs in that tier

There are plans for more formats right?

I love monotype, and with how many options we have it could be really nice

[dusky steeple]

You would think so, but we don't have that big of a population for more tiers

I think it's good as is

[patent sandal]

Fair enough

[vestal iron]

Thoughts?

[whole karma]

I literally just fought that guy lol

[sudden prawn]

I've turned my sprites into Randbats, god help you if you get one

[sullen ore]

I think some of my sprites didnt get added bc i submitted as a second response

So gotta fix that

[patent sandal]

Discount Gen 9 OU

[unborn pine]

You had my idea

[thick axle]

@sweet void gg

[unborn pine]

gliscor being just gliscor is funny

[patent sandal]

What can I say? That boi good

[sweet void]

gg, best of luck on ur quick claws next time lol

[fast blade]

Pretty sure speed boost is banned

[fast blade]

Lol

[patent sandal]

Wdwm that is clearly Quark Drive/Protosynthesis

[fast blade]

Yo just run Azumarill/Marowak

[fast blade]

Chansey/Aegislash is just comically broken

[patent sandal]

Oh

Is it because Eviolite?

Does Eviolite even work in this scenario?

[wary flame]

Yes

But only 1.25 boost

[patent sandal]

Huh

That

Makes sense

I guess

[fast blade]

Not true. That's a common myth. It's still 1.5, people have checked the code to verify

[wary flame]

O damn

[fast blade]

Well it's everything. Aegislash and Chansey are amazing on their own but each have incredible synergy.

It's eviolite, it's the fact that Chanseys main weakness is low defense, but you're combining it with a mon with 150 defense, Aegislash has no recovery, Chansey does. Ghost/Normal is a typing with 3 immunities and 1 weakness which is insane, you have access to eviolite ON TOP OF a ridiculous 186/101/120 bulk stats. And if you try to break it on the physical side, it has access to King's shield which causes -1 ATT, so even if you set up on it, you lose a lot of firepower if you hit the shield. You could even theoretically swords dance+Shadow Sneak with Stance change, so it doesn't have to just be a tank it could be offense.

Knock off is basically the counter, but I mean, even then

[tiny wadi]

monotype would be awesome ngl

[hushed skiff]

Trick room is super fun on this format

Tons of options, and nobody is running taunt yet

[feral anchor]

if you guys want fun try making a monotype team

[hushed skiff]

maybe will if they add a monotype format

done enough monotype building in game already lmao

[glacial bane]

Isn't Trick Room more of a doubles thing?

[hushed skiff]

Yeah it’s way better in doubles

I’ve played it in singles forever though

since like gen 4

maybe 5 idk it was forever ago but yeah I pretty much only play trick room on regular showdown ladder

[glacial bane]

Oh, neat

[outer sorrel]

https://replay.pokeathlon.com/#replay=theshawdoin-justgonnatestabit-1700344405154

Absolutely cooked deathless without setting up

[pale kettle]

no politoed in ou

time to change that >:)

[feral anchor]

https://replay.pokeathlon.com/#&player=staros&replay=staros-garrby123-1700343340025

[pale kettle]

i always forget sevii island moves, v cool team :)

do people not run electric coverage? feels like you'd have major issues with thunder between rain and all the flying mons, but im pretty bad at smogon.

[feral anchor]

Sandlucha, Goocor, and Azunite have that covered. It just ice type moves i struggle with

https://pokepast.es/85e7a4958899d90e
Here's the team, some advice would be nice

[pale kettle]

almost pointless addition but aerial ace can't miss and has same bp as wing attack on azunite, less pp but i dont think you ever hit pp limit.

[short marsh]

Why is geomancy not banned on celebi?

[stray terrace]

Really wishing for a disguise ban and not a mimikyu ban on IF OU

Disguise is the problem, and the collateral is like the only good physical fairy fusion in that tier

A crying shame

[short marsh]

Idt it’s possible

Disguise is mimikyu’s only ability

[stray terrace]

Just means you'd have to use the other mon's ability

It's also not banned in natdex, so idk

[vestal iron]

Who whould be banned to AG First

[feral anchor]

shedinjas
also that is ag

[sharp depot]

actually shedinja fusions die really easily

especially if you have any hazards

[feral anchor]

all you need to do is have w way to hit every fusion of bug and every fusion of ghost to beat it
or mold breaker, that works too

[gentle matrix]

Toxic

[bitter sky]

Can you see the sprites of the pokemon if theyre in the actual if game?

[vivid junco]

yes

It uses the same github

so every sprite in if is on the client

[bitter sky]

Bet

[vivid junco]

but this also makes it so nat dex stuff can't get sprites

since that system doesn't work

[bitter sky]

i used to play on the old client a few years ago that stuff was hectic ahahaha

[vivid junco]

My baby won't have a sprite

[bitter sky]

So figured id come back and give it a try

[vivid junco]

im waiting for people to boot up nat dex ou ladder

I am like 20 elo away from number 1 spot

that win loss ratio is sad

but 4 of those losses are doing to wifi going out

and I have been using a fun team instead of an op team for most of the battles until today

[fast blade]

Apparently I can't play because my team crashed the system?

[fast elm]

do you have a regi on it

[young saffron]

top 20 on regional ou now

feels good

[fast blade]

no

[fast elm]

theres an issue with the current teambuilder where it will crash sometimes for mons with an Undiscovered egg group

its probably that

will be fixed in the next few days

[sharp depot]

my god, i hate gliscor fusions

[fast blade]

oh yeah that explains it

[fast elm]

yeah sorry about that

will be remaking all of the learnsets and validation based on infinite fusion's code over the next few days so that should go away

[glacial bane]

Understandable, the most consistent out to it is Ice and even that is often times not enough
But I personally love Gliscor

[sharp depot]

i think gliscor is a cool pokemon too, but my god is it a pain to deal with

you cant even use status on it because of toxic orb

[glacial bane]

Yeah, I often just Scarf Trick against it...

[gentle matrix]

Umbreon gliscor was a lot of fun to use

Dark flying with great all-around bulk

[glacial bane]

I usually use Snorlax Gliscor

[fast blade]

if you see a horrendous rain team on the ladder, that's me

[glacial bane]

https://tenor.com/view/politoed-pokemon-clapping-hooray-yay-gif-3429389

[sharp depot]

why the heck can entei learn v create?

[glacial bane]

Move Expert

Also, he needs it.

[patent sandal]

Huh, Sap Sipper blocks Spore

Never knew that

[sharp depot]

spore is a grass type move after all

[fast blade]

horrendous as in it sucks

[sharp depot]

oh my god, my opponent has a gliscor fusion only team

[spark mulch]

what does this mean?

[feral anchor]

read it

[spark mulch]

how do I add an adamant nature?

I'm confused, Idk what that means

[tulip talon]

Have you never played showdown before

[spark mulch]

not really

[tulip talon]

Adamant nature is +Atk -SpA

Go to the stats section and type under EVs basically

[spark mulch]

Oh thanks

[sharp depot]

god, this whimsicott/breloom fusion is so annoying with the spore and substitute

literally no way for me to hit it

[astral yoke]

Fun fact, Prankster moves cannot hit Dark types... ever

[sharp depot]

damn, forgot about that

[astral yoke]

Also fun fact, some moves like Boomburst ignore substitute

[cyan dock]

"sound" moves specifically

[gentle matrix]

Infiltrator also allows moves to bypass substitute

[cyan dock]

Grass types are also immune to Spore and any other powder moves

[low merlin]

blunder knows the existence of if showdown 👀

[autumn birch]

We gotta get wolfey (or nah) to play PIF showdown honestly

[balmy cloud]

can i add a custom sprite for a fusion to showdown?

[autumn birch]

it would be kinda funny to see him battle random fusions

[autumn birch]

uhhh
Yes?

Like if you made a sprite

For PIF

It prob get added to IF showdown

[balmy cloud]

i mean directly. like from my files.

[autumn birch]

No

• Its a website

so you probably cant

[balmy cloud]

damn. i wanted to use a cofagrigus/weavile sprite for a runerigus/weavile sprite in natdex.

[fast blade]

I feel bad I played this guy 4 times in a row

[vivid junco]

we have known this for like an hour

we have been talking about it in pokeathlon

wait 2 hours

[fast blade]

maybe my rain team isn't that bad

[feral anchor]

Just made a mono psychic team

too bad i couldn't use my favorite psychic type on it

[glacial bane]

Nice, haven't faced weather yet and am curious how it performs

[astral yoke]

i have a sun team u can try facing

[feral anchor]

https://replay.pokeathlon.com/#replay=harror-staros-1700358847278
mono psychic pretty good actually

[fast blade]

Well I won like 7 in a row at one point

I abuse like basically every aspect of rain, 100% Accurate hurricanes, thunders, etc

[feral anchor]

Teambuilder just fucked up my mon, no wonder why it died that fast

https://pokepast.es/786b18e6754a8b11
Mono Psychic team, advice would be nice

[shadow arrow]

first impression is too many psychic/dark types

sylveon boomburst and e-speed fusions would destroy you

[feral anchor]

thats what my parting shot spammers are for, and also murkrow

[glacial bane]

Needs a Bullet Puncher

[feral anchor]

the whole point of the team is to set up for the bibarel sweep

imma play another game with it real quick

[glacial bane]

I mean yeah, but I don't see how you remove threats and bait out priority

[feral anchor]

https://play.pokeathlon.com/#battle-gen7ifdexou-5603

come watch real quick

[feral anchor]

i was planning on putting psychic terrain on the team to instantly invalidate priority

[glacial bane]

Ah

[astral yoke]

Oh right, we have terrains in IF

I wonder if we have Psychic Surge?

[feral anchor]

tapu's arent in the game so we have to set up terrain manually

[astral yoke]

Damn

[feral anchor]

i can replace perish song with psychic terrain first

and replace lucazma with something else with prio

wait no pterrain doesnt work because dragonite gives flying type when body god damn it

[thick stag]

so does multitype just not work in showdown?

[formal mirage]

from playing this tier ive learned 3 things

1. Scizor is hard carried by his ability
2. There are no hurricane users in this game
3. Technician flame charge is actually crazy

[feral anchor]

replacing lucarionecrozma now

Dhelmgross (Dhelmise) @ Life Orb
Ability: Steelworker
Fusion: Metagross
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def
Adamant Nature

• Bullet Punch
• Swords Dance
• Phantom Force
• Zen Headbutt

Theres the anti noivern pick and anti prioiry pick

[glacial bane]

2 Turn moves are kinda bad in pvp

[feral anchor]

the point is to force a switch

[glacial bane]

hmmm...

[feral anchor]

most of the team is just to force switches until they I get celery on the team and everything dies

Now i just need to replace arew with something useful

[glacial bane]

If I had a quarter everytime I had to pp stall in IF Showdown, I would have 2 quarters, which isn't a lot, but it's a little odd it happened twice

[astral yoke]

PP stall is great

Once had to PP stall a Gliscor becuz all my special attackers were dead

[fast blade]

Wait did I play you???

[glacial bane]

Okay there gen 2

[feral anchor]

idk

[fast blade]

which iteration of bibarel/celeby do you have

[feral anchor]

you kirian>

[astral yoke]

Isn't this Ghost/Psychic?

[feral anchor]

yes

[astral yoke]

Meaning you don't get STAB bullet punch, and a Steelworker boosted Bullet Punch is just... STAB Bullet punch... which is 60 BP?

[fast blade]

yeah so what's the point

[astral yoke]

Why use Dhelmise then?

[prime furnace]

yeah im not playing this shitty competitive stuff

[feral anchor]

just a placeholder for now

[prime furnace]

this isnt fun

how is this even fun

[astral yoke]

My fun is making sure others don't have fun

[prime furnace]

than you're a shitty person

[astral yoke]

Thank you

[prime furnace]

yeah.. "thank you"

[glacial bane]

You know the feeling of like, placing something really close to a table edge and it looks like it's gonna fall and everything in the world would point to it falling, but yet it doesn't?

Yeah that

[prime furnace]

that makes no sense

[fast blade]

wait what made you think this way?

[glacial bane]

Potentially

[prime furnace]

how is it fun when you cant make whatever moveset you want or your favorite fusions and just get destroyed constantly

[glacial bane]

That's just every competitive game ever

[astral yoke]

i mean dood comes into a PvP environment where IF breeds the shittiest and most bullshit of sets, and brings along their Pikachu or whatever, and then proceeds to complain, not sure what they expect, we haven't gotten random mode yet

The whole ladder thing is to filter out as much bullshit as possible

so that u can bring your Pikachu or whatever safely

[prime furnace]

and yet there still is bullshit

[astral yoke]

Oh i'm sorry your majesty, the showdown just came out 2 days ago... maybe less, but they'll work faster than the speed of light for your ass next time

[glacial bane]

It's like Day 3, of course people will still believe Sylveon is good

[prime furnace]

it doesnt help when someone who doesnt even play competitive wants to try it out with IF showdown but is just absolutely confused

[astral yoke]

Then just keep waiting. It's just the Beta atm, they're still testing and filtering stuff

[prime furnace]

im sorry

I am sorry

[glacial bane]

Weren't there sample teams somewhere? No idea how good they are...

[fast blade]

I think that's more of an in game thing, to be able to make your favorites and have fun

[prime furnace]

Honestly I just want random battles

[fast blade]

in competitive....well

[astral yoke]

They're still being uploaded. They have over a 1000 sets atm, but they're still collecting

[glacial bane]

Ah

[fast blade]

water spout spam is actually not bad apparently

I catch a lot of people off guard with one shots they don't expect lol

[prime furnace]

because surely you cant just destroy eachother

[prime furnace]

oh dont even tell me you were the mf I just faced

[vivid junco]

First top of the ladder

[fast blade]

lol I think I was

we played several times

[prime furnace]

what was your user

[fast blade]

llewos

[prime furnace]

wtf

[fast blade]

you're totalsylv?

[prime furnace]

yes

[fast blade]

lol

you're upset?

[prime furnace]

wtf

actually

not really

just really surprised

you basically just beat my ass twice

[fast blade]

well I think they were close iirc

[astral yoke]

Ah... i see why Sylv complained...

They fought Oak twice

[fast blade]

I just wanted to try a rain team, I don't think rain is that viable but it's fun so far

[prime furnace]

i hate that team

[astral yoke]

Oak is a competitive mfer, i don't wanna fight him lol

[prime furnace]

man

i have the worst luck

as in luck against who I fight against

[sudden prawn]

Can't believe we added Toxapex to the game right before showdown drops lol

[prime furnace]

Ok I should just fight and not complain

learn from mistakes

[astral yoke]

I still haven't found Toxapex to be an issue though

[prime furnace]

ok lets see who I fight this time

[feral anchor]

man i just need to drop from 1200 so i can bully noobs already this is getting boring

[prime furnace]

well then

https://replay.pokeathlon.com/#replay=littlemxdoom-totalsylv-1700364165350

one question

what the hell were they cooking

[fast blade]

you have a lot of great sprites on your team

[prime furnace]

thx

but seriously

wth was this man cooking

[fast blade]

no definitely not

a lot of broken stuff around

still doesn't let me play my other team

[astral yoke]

I'm pretty settled on my sun team, want to try a new gimmick

Also i climbed back to 1300, so it's time to lower it again

Reuniclus/Electrode with Mind Blown was so fun, any1 else got interesting gimmicks?

[runic oak]

And I wouldn't have it any other way. Makes me nostalgic for early gen 8 paraflinch before I stopped playing competitive

[patent sandal]

Paraflinch reminds me of my Gen 3 Lanturn with T.Wave/Confuse Ray. Not the exact same thing but the idea was there

That thing was the bane of my friends existence

[flint kayak]

Once I fought a doublade/mew with dynamic punch and zap cannon

Similar concept

[patent sandal]

But this time with damage on top, sounds kinda neat tbh

[bronze totem]

ayoooo showdown

[fast blade]

I've spent my whole day making bad teams on showdown

lol

[twilit lark]

Dont know if its posted here yet but https://vxtwitter.com/Thunderblunder7/status/1726046388671205468?t=yZhhAN2gHfT1x4OY8ck4cg&s=19

Theres hope for massive publicity yall

[flint kayak]

Parting shot + wish is sure something

[pallid forge]

man its fun to just kinda teambuild

like whether i win or lose

[sudden prawn]

I cannot keep up with this game lol

[bronze totem]

Just built a doubles team

tfw the doubles lobby is dead as a doornail 😔

[prisma cobalt]

Yeah I'm trying to stalk the doubles sections, just to get inspiration because I'm extremely new to competitive. I have had 0 difficulty to stalk each battle :/

If I did the same with OU I'd be overwhelmed

[astral yoke]

IF the past 3 days
Day 1: Bullshit is made
Day 2: Bullshit is made to deal with day 1's bullshit, and also made to do more bullshit
Day 3: Some bullshit is banned, new bullshit reign

[dusky steeple]

Honestly that's just compmon

[sullen ore]

yeah i havent kept up at all
i forgot to make a team that didnt just get sylveon'd

[dusky steeple]

I just sylveon'd a dude

[prime furnace]

..

whats your user

[dusky steeple]

TheusinEX

[prime furnace]

ok not you

someone literally

used my damn sylnite against me

[dusky steeple]

I used a Sylv+Raichu set

With fake out + quick attack

[prime furnace]

whoever fupizza is

you are good

[astral yoke]

Remember, forget the meta, play with Pokemon u want, play with Pokemon you love so you can feed my elo

[dusky steeple]

Honestly I just do my thing, and I have fun:
1 - Cook a team to counter most common threads
2 - Get destroyed by something you never saw before (I'm actually bad at the game, but blaming the fusions is best)
3 - Go to step 1

[prime furnace]

https://replay.pokeathlon.com/#replay=fupizza-totalsylv-1700370868448

they used my sylnite

[dusky steeple]

you did not know about sleep clause?

[prime furnace]

ummm

i dont play competitive

[dusky steeple]

No prob, if you haven't find out yet, in showdown you can only have 1 pokemon asleep at a time in a team

[astral yoke]

It's a smogon thing. Actual competitive stuff doesn't have it

[fast blade]

eviolite is bugged, it only gives a 1.25x boost

[dusky steeple]

post it here #1175117403219308654

[runic oak]

I think that's how it works in-game.

There are some old reddit posts talking about this in IF

[fast blade]

It's not. The code says 1.5

[fast blade]

Idk when I go to post it is in grey

Doesn't let me

[sullen ore]

https://replay.pokeathlon.com/#replay=zmemed900-plooshiebaird-1700374624433
oh so thats what geomancy celebi does

although honestly i should put more into special attack instead of defense

[outer tusk]

I wish people wouldn't use mons that dont have customs

[sullen ore]

im putting every mon i use without a sprite on my backlog lol

yknow i could probably rank higher if i didnt play like 2 games a day but
heres to me having the comedic genius of a 14 year old

[ember nova]

Anyone still on at this time lol?

[runic oak]

Team is still crashing the validator unfortunately

[livid delta]

blunder mentioned? Deploy the agency rap

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYH_lu5R3H0

[modern spire]

is there a /data or /weak for fusions yet?

[autumn birch]

I searched up Pokemon infinite fusion showdown and there were Videos abt it...like 3 years ago
so we can only wait for that to happen again

[true wedge]

I haven't been around for most of the discussion here, but Geomancy not being banned feels like a huge issue lol

[autumn birch]

I'm suprised it hasnt been banned yet

[twilit lark]

I mean

Idt anyone has found a broken celebi fusion YET

[astral yoke]

^

Celebi's Geomancy isn't that broken... yet

[chilly tendon]

best fusion i've made with geomancy celebi yet is sceptile

but it's still ok tier

[twilit lark]

yo

bandageblades

[tiny wadi]

@twilit lark joe mama

[twilit lark]

shoot me a DM

[tiny wadi]

bibarell celebi with geomancy

[tiny wadi]

cause simple

[twilit lark]

WAIT

yo ur on to something

[tiny wadi]

power herb that bih

[lethal lynx]

i just found out showdown and im dead at how crazy these mons are

[winged quest]

I have just been informed that apparently the Triple Fusions can be used as fusion material.

[placid wigeon]

About Bibarel/Celebi

[wary flame]

i hate you

[astral yoke]

Don't be so surprised, it's not as broken as ppl think it is

[lethal lynx]

technican frost breath?

[opal fiber]

I wonder if any of my sets will be added in randbats

[willow cipher]

Wait celebi gets geomancy?

[solar kettle]

But why waterfall tho, you gotta run surf cuz its boosted

[wary flame]

im stupid and tthought was an omni boost

[tribal zealot]

Dumb question but how do you actually play your infinite fusion team on showdown? As soon as I started my game it said about a new update but I haven't found any downloads links my 2 remaining brain cells are doing cartwheels

[wary flame]

you must play just before the the sever reset just check the pin sever in here

[tribal zealot]

@wary flame I have no idea what you mean but thank you for your reply

[wary flame]

do you just want the sever link or? what do you want

[astral yoke]

god damn, won by the skin of the teeth

[fast blade]

It doesn't let me use my team it keeps crashing the validatir

[small crystal]

the realization that I can't win with a team full of my own sprites is really saddening... 😔

[young saffron]

i see electivire i smile

whats it fused with?

[autumn birch]

I use klingklang too
its not that bad ig

[fallen epoch]

Dude I've been having close games too

It's so fun but so scary

[fast blade]

A lot of people run Klinklang/Salamence

[autumn birch]

ay
benares

[grave barn]

if i were to make a genesect team i need to play in AG where it doesnt really do much

[small crystal]

Vaporeon

[small crystal]

I used it with Exeggutor

as I said I wanted to try and win with a team entirely made with my fusions

but everyone's running either Normal/Ghost Shedinja or Regigigas or both

Regigigas especially I've seen everywhere

it outspeeds me AND hits me like a truck

[twilit lark]

Be grateful half ur sprites isnt unusuable in standard

[small crystal]

yeah ig

[sudden prawn]

I fell into the pit of only wanting to use sprites I made, as soon as people realized how to actually play the game it was pretty depressing lol

[fast blade]

Maybe you played me

[autumn birch]

Wdym

What was ur name btw

[zenith smelt]

😐

[vivid junco]

Mankys paw

its an item

halfs accuracy

then always crit

run no guard

[zenith smelt]

ty, I didn't know

[astral yoke]

It's hardcoded to not work in PIF, same way No Guard doesn't work with OHKO moves only in PIF
I do not know if it's coded the same way in showdown though

[vivid junco]

it works on showdown atm

[astral yoke]

Oh, that's cool

[vivid junco]

ik its hard coded

[vivid junco]

they where asking here

Manky's paw has been very dumb lol

[fast blade]

They should unban alakazam

[wary flame]

why?

[astral yoke]

Without having faced it in OU, i'm also unclear as to why it's banned

it's basically the same as Weavile, a super powerful glass cannon

[wary flame]

magic gurad

[astral yoke]

hmm? We have another Magic Guard in Reuniclus, or am i missing something

[wary flame]

renu is slow as hell

[wary flame]

and is weaker

[astral yoke]

hmm, without facing Alakazam in OU, i can't really understand yet

[wispy ember]

why is alakazam banned in OU

I wonder

[wary flame]

if zam gets un banned your going to see 100 millons dark types

[wispy ember]

I wonder

[astral yoke]

shhhh milly

i'm trying to get it back into OU so i can spam that shit

[wispy ember]

Alakazam was banned for a reason

let it stay that way

[fast blade]

It doesn't have any broken abilities, moves, or item access, it literally just has pretty good stats. And we already have pokemon like Noivern who are faster and have far more immediate firepower. If you have going to ban Alakazam for having 135/120 offense stats, then why not ban Weavile for having 120/125 stats? Especially since weavile is capable of benefitting from synergistic abilities on the physical side more easily. As far as boosting goes, Alakazam doesn't have access to nasty plot where as weavile has access to swords dance by default, and Ice is a comically better offensive type than psychic is.

[astral yoke]

Whatever... Reuniclus/Electrode has a cooler sprite anyways

[vivid junco]

No

I was in beta

please no

Steel beam and mind blown running around like crazy

[fast blade]

Bro you could give this same speech with Weavile. Raikou has 115/115 offense, Jolteon has 110/130, somehow 130/120 is so much better it is banworthy? Noivern has 123 speed and access to the best attacking move in the game. Psychic is an extremely mediocre offensive type.

[vivid junco]

we just made rad red delphox

[wary flame]

no broken abitlties it has most likey top 10 probely top 5 abilty in the game with great stab,weavlie doest have that great of stabs.and just fustion with nasty plot pokemon and you done

[fast blade]

Oh it is weird that Electrode gets mind blown

[wispy ember]

legendary move tutor

[fast blade]

I know

I'm aware of how it gets it, it's just strange that it does get it

[vivid junco]

this is what got it banned

[wispy ember]

NatDex moments

[vivid junco]

fixed ability

[wispy ember]

it did influence some decisions tho

[fast blade]

Bro what are you talking about magic guard is not one of the best abilities in the game. Do you see Clefable users running magic guard all the time? Why not? Could it be that it's not one of the best? Reuniclus gets so much usage right lol?

[vivid junco]

araq is still legal in nat dex

[vivid junco]

shut up dude, Its 1 of the best in the game

unaware is just also 1 of the best

and clefable makes both work

[fast blade]

We aren't talking nat dex

[vivid junco]

Its even better in if dex

[wary flame]

what magic gured is what makes clef vialbty and reun would be in nu or pu if it didt have it

[wispy ember]

Clef is mostly used for unaware

funnily enough

[vivid junco]

depends

[wary flame]

here or standerd play

[vivid junco]

both of fine

[wispy ember]

here

[vivid junco]

thats fair

here it is uanaware

[wary flame]

okie well fair but even still getting to ingore hazed on any pokemon is amzing

[fast blade]

To add on to this, with weavile it's attacking stats are both inherited in the same body type. You can just use weavile as the body and instantly get great attack/speed on the mon. For alakazam, you have to choose between inheriting most of the speed, or inheriting most of the special attack.

Also, again, Ice is a drastically better offensive type

[wispy ember]

[fast blade]

Yes that's my point lol. If magic guard was as good as he was saying, it'd be used over unaware at least with mild frequency. Instead like 95% of the time people use unaware

[vivid junco]

bro magic guard is how good he is saying tho

it depends on the mon for this meta

clefable stats are too low

while alakazam are god teir

[wary flame]

why is clef top 1-4 in dpp then

[thick axle]

This is my clef set

[wispy ember]

saw that one in action

[vivid junco]

why band

with first imp

[wary flame]

fair enough

[thick axle]

For when trickroom run outs

[vivid junco]

lorb would probs be better here

[thick axle]

And i need to OHKO something that's low

Trickroom allows me to outspeed everything, I feel like band is fine, once trick room is set, i just click double iron bash, and they have to deal with 525 attack stab tecnician, and if they somehow survive (Even resists usually die to an attack) they have a 51~% chance to not being able to move

[fast blade]

Cuz it's DPP not IF lmao

[tiny wadi]

Hey guys, how do you access the IF Lobby on a different System?

I'm trying to use My Computer for the Team Building, but I only have access to the Lobby through the Link in #showdown-announcements on my Discord Mobile

[wary flame]

okie then what about gen 6 gen 7 gen 8 gen 9 the only reaons clef got any where is because of magic guared

[vivid junco]

this

[fast blade]

Idk why it doesn't let me post in the bug reports

[thick axle]

Did you select a tag?

[fast blade]

Yes. The "Post" button is still greyed out it doesn't let me post anything

[thick axle]

Then idk

[proven wedge]

I present to everyone: A menace to society.

[thick axle]

He stalled so much the 2 battles I had against you

[proven wedge]

He is winning like 1/3 of my games by himself

[sudden prawn]

I can vouch, this thing's a menace

Great sprite too

[fast blade]

It had unaware

If magic guard was that good we would see alakazam dominating in actual OU a lot more than it does

[low merlin]

honestly, im glad eternamax its a battle only form

[fast blade]

Okay seriously this showdown is supposed to emulate the actual game but it has items, moves, and item effects that are different than the actual game

[fast elm]

thanks for the feedback, I have never played infinite fusion and haven't had much contact with the devs of the game until the last couple days :) i am working on fixing those discrepancies

[fast blade]

And it won't let me submit bugs lol

[fast elm]

well then dm them to me

but first make sure they aren't already posted please

[wary flame]

Gen 5 and mega zam abuse so much out of magic gured

[wary flame]

It doesn’t use it ever

[wary flame]

• to does sometimes but not all the time

[tiny wadi]

Hey guys, Baskim and I did some testing in Showdown, and we found out something interesting

Magnet Pull only works against Pokemon that have either Primary Steel Type, or a Steel Type Head.

So for example: Jirachi/Xatu can be affected by it, but Dhelmise/Ferrothorn cannot

[fast blade]

Mega zam doesn't even have magic guard

[pure breach]

Dhelmise/Ferrothorn is Ghost/Steel, Ghost types aren't affected by trapping

[wary flame]

yeah it use base zam magic gured to get in for free then megas

[proven wedge]

Only now do i learn how climbing the ladder makes me sad

[wary flame]

also on this point out of all the saple sets for singels on smgon 19/25 of them had magic gured as there abilty

[proven wedge]

i get +5 for a win and -20 for a loss

i was 10th and now im back to 19th

[patent sandal]

Is there a way to see mons usage stats? I know Sylveon/Noivern is the most used rn, but would be nice to see what other top mons I should be wary about

[wary flame]

you can see the usge stats for the fusioned mons?

[patent sandal]

Basically, I'm asking how you got this

I want to see for myself

[wary flame]

oooo yoish post that out of the blue i think we just have to wait till the end of the month

[patent sandal]

Ah, I see

[deft oasis]

just curious, does anyone know why Azumarill is banned to Ubers instead of Huge Power itself?

[patent sandal]

Because we can't have good physical fairy mons

[proven wedge]

^

[wary flame]

cause maril fun

[deft oasis]

would've been nice to use Azumarill for Sap Sipper, but it is what it is I guess

[ember nova]

https://replay.pokeathlon.com/#replay=alexb43-sonderofall-1700417508468

My cursed team isn't as bad as one might assume.

[tiny wadi]

Are we allowed to ask or submit an explanation about Banning a Specific Move that could cause issues and annoyances for dozens of people?

[silver surge]

just use stantler ig

[wary flame]

sunmit it to what? we can just chat gere

[tiny wadi]

Okay, so I've been noticing a very specific thing going on that is causing lots of Trouble for many people: Stored Power on Latios/Ferrothorn.

[wary flame]

can you send the set and the stats?

[tiny wadi]

I'm unsure if I can get the exact Stats or Ability for the Set, but I know most of it.

The Fusion is Latios/Ferrothorn, it is holding Leftovers as the Item, and its exact Moveset is Calm Mind, Recover, Iron Defense, and Stored Power.

[wary flame]

o yeah that one thats annoying but i have seen counter play

[tiny wadi]

I tried Haze already

And it didn't work

[wary flame]

whirewind

or dark types

[proven wedge]

i just found out that stealth rock oneshots zapmolcuno

[tiny wadi]

The thing is that as long as that exact Latios Set exists, there will be no counter. It just sets back up after another Pokemon deals with your Dark Type(s) and/or Whirlwind Pokemon

[wary flame]

thats fair and you cant unware

[tiny wadi]

So my idea is that we should just Ban Stored Power, because other Latios and Latias Fusions that don't use it are for the most part fair in IF OU

[fast blade]

That hardly counts lol. It literally only used it prior to mega evolving. You're grasping for straws really hard

And clefable was good because of unaware

[wary flame]

then why doest it use it

[elfin flint]

anyone got a team i could try ?

[wary flame]

what tier

[elfin flint]

ou

[wary flame]

nat dex or gen 7

[elfin flint]

idk what's AAAAAAAG btw

[elfin flint]

whatever

[wary flame]

anything goes

[wary flame]

gen 7 had a meta nat dex is just chaos

[elfin flint]

welp gen 7 then

[wary flame]

here my team we dont have sample teams yet https://pokepast.es/86e1d8c70b0e4f36

[tight viper]

Anyone here playing doubles? Like it's so much fun dude

[elfin flint]

why starfable ? stats no good.

[wary flame]

there are like 4 none if rapid spinner and magic gured helps a lot in the stats part but if you want a diffent one you can use one

[tiny wadi]

Anyways, how should we help it get Banned?

[wary flame]

@ing yoshifanfic haveing like a vote by the commity or have a conuilcs would work

[tiny wadi]

In Showdown, or in Discord?

[wary flame]

for the conulic or commity?

[tiny wadi]

Both

[wary flame]

discord but you could have the thing on showdown linking to the form or something

[shadow arrow]

its technically weak to perish trapping, but thats an unfair strat beating another unfair strat so lol

[proven wedge]

imo perish trapping aint that unfair

its just a very specific counter, doesnt do much against anything else

[fast blade]

it does

[wary flame]

how muuch of the time would you say it was on sample set lets says

[pure breach]

this is the current Clefable ability usage in Vanilla gen 9 OU, do with that what you will

[fast blade]

okay maybe you're right

that is surprising to me to see

[wary flame]

pikalic for gen 9?

[pure breach]

yes

I also checked BDSP and it's roughly the same

wanted to check a meta without salt cure

[wary flame]

i just went thorh all the metagame spost gen 6 and check weahter the sample set was magic gured or unware

[pure breach]

yeah totally

[wary flame]

i sent to early ok

[pure breach]

ok lmfao

but yeah

magic guard good

[wary flame]

magic guard easly top 10 abilty

[fast blade]

Nevermind, it just doesn't let me do it on mobile. I can do it on desktop.

[spark mulch]

:o y'all banning magic guard?

[wary flame]

no we werew haveing a deabte over if magic guard was good or not

[spark mulch]

:o are you having a stroke?

[wary flame]

im bloody dyslexia

[wary flame]

no were having a debate over if magic guard was good or not*

[dusky steeple]

How do I move a mon from a box to another?

Just copy paste and delete?

[wary flame]

yeah

[glacial bane]

Taking a breather from theambuilding chat, how are you today?

[wary flame]

good

yours?

[feral beacon]

@normal sedge So, what you're saying is... you can't build a team for every possible Dragonite fusion.

...I think it'd be easier to say "you can't build a team for every possible fusion, period"

By its nature Infinite Fusion has a lot of mons

And generally, if a specific mon gives an advantage when fused, like Wonder Guard or Sketch or Imposter... Well, it gets banned!

[normal sedge]

No what I'm saying is, if a team is ALL Dragonite fusions, all six Pokémon would have to be JUST to counter that ONE Pokémon base. It wouldn't necessarily work against ANY other Pokémon.
The same could also be said about more than Dragonite. Which means it's impossible to make a Team that is realistically able to handle two teams of ALL one fusion component.

[glacial bane]

Alright, feeling a little bit sick, but it's probably nothing

[wary flame]

fair enough

[feral beacon]

But again, that knife cuts pretty well both ways. If one Pokemon counters some Dragonite fusions, it probably counters most Dragonite fusions. Not all, sure, but it'd probably do well enough against a team with six Dragonites.

Ice will always be super effective against Dragon and Flying, and any fusion with Dragonite must be one or the other.

Oh, something else I don't think I considered.

Fusions are naturally balanced by the fact that, in general, their stats are always going to be more average.

No Regieleki fusion will ever be as fast as a Regieleki, for example.

But also, very few Doublade fusions will ever be as slow as a Doublade.

Of course, the good news of all of this is we don't need to speculate

People will play and develop strategies and learn

And if it turns out abuse of same-mon fusions is an issue, that will get banned.

If it turns out the issue is Dragonite itself (or, you know, any other Pokemon), that will get banned instead.

[normal sedge]

So without even doing fusions, here's a great example of why a single Pokémon species can completely ruin an entire meta:

https://youtu.be/8rHvzr9RjFo?feature=shared
If an Ability, move(a), typing, AND stats all have to be just right for a Pokémon to break the meta, that specific mom can be banned. But if the mon itself isn't the issue, simply USING it for every fusion creates the problem, the species clause would resolve that.

When you Fuse, you are spreading Ability and move options to more things. If a move is the issue, it gets banned. Same with Abilities.

[tiny wadi]

can anyone help with teambuilding?

[feral beacon]

I want to be clear, I do support the species clause.

[sullen ore]

Check #showdown-teambuilding

[normal sedge]

But if you don't require every fusion to be different base mons than every other fusion, you start having all teams of one particular Pokémon to abuse the things that would normally be fine with just ONE Pokémon having it.

[feral beacon]

I think that considering multiple fusions as a single species is silly, though.

[normal sedge]

Oh I know, but it needs to apply everywhere except Anything Goes

[normal sedge]

A fusion is two or three species. You get access to some of the broken parts of Pokémon but also potentially remove the weaknesses.

[feral beacon]

Most of the time, those weaknesses and strengths are dulled by stat averaging.

[normal sedge]

Dark Void wouldn't be as good on a Pokémon that was slow, frail, and couldn't make use of sleep

The move itself isn't the problem. It's Darkrai.

[feral beacon]

There are cases where that's not the case (Chansey, Ditto, Slaking, etc.) and that's what gets banned.

[normal sedge]

If six fusions have sleep Abilities from a fusion, it's requiring everyone to have an answer for sleep at all times.

[glacial bane]

You know someone had a bad day when they say "Another Gliscor Fusion?"

[feral beacon]

See, something like this is answered with the Sleep clause.

[sudden prawn]

Man, eviolite helps weaker mons but a 1.5x boost is gonna need testing. I almost hope they keep a 1.25x item that doesn’t get banned.

[normal sedge]

Right, but what about when NONE of them are the sole problem. What if the problem is the combination of the type, ability, move, etc., for that specific Pokémon? Every fusion now has that. You can't ban an entire Pokémon when by itself it isn't the issue. The issue is when they ALL have it because they ALL use that fusion mon

[normal sedge]

And something like this 👆👆 is too, with the Species clause

[feral beacon]

...I don't think I follow?

[wary flame]

i want a sleep ban

[feral beacon]

Like, so

[normal sedge]

Multiscale by itself isn't the issue

[feral beacon]

Are you saying for example, what if the issue is specifically a fusion of Darkrai and... I don't know, Victini?

[prime furnace]

https://replay.pokeathlon.com/#replay=skiddzbop-shrimptheshrimp-1700427931272

oh my god

[normal sedge]

If the issue is that Darkrai fused with anything is a LOT. But Darkrai fused with multiple things becomes impossible. You can't answer every combination, and you have six combinations to survive.

[feral beacon]

Then the problem is Darkrai, is it not?

[normal sedge]

No, Darkrai by itself isn't an issue. One Darkrai fusion isn't an issue. Six DIFFERENT Darkrai fusions are an issue

[feral beacon]

If it's specifically an issue of Darkrai/Victini, as an example, that's the kind of Species Clause I'm in support of. Multiple Darkrai fusions, but not multiple Darkrai/Victinis.

[feral beacon]

...Then the issue is Darkrai.

[normal sedge]

Why?

[feral beacon]

Not Unfused Darkrai

but the fact that Darkrai is a naturally better Pokemon for fusion

e.g. because of its ability

[normal sedge]

Then you'd have to ban every Pokémon with a halfway decent Ability and BST above 500 that makes no sense

[feral beacon]

...Not really?

None of those abilities are signature.

[normal sedge]

One fusion doesn't change everything. Every fusion using that base Pokémon does break everything.

[feral beacon]

And high BSTs are a commonplace thing.

[fast blade]

Wait why is darkrai legal in OU

[sullen ore]

Darkrai isnt legal in ou i think it's just a hypothetical

[feral beacon]

If using multiple fusions based on a single pokemon is an issue, then there's some specific issue with that mon. Maybe it's got really lopsided base stats, like Blissey, or maybe it has an ability that's insanely good.

[normal sedge]

You want a full ban on any single Pokémon if it is a good fusion material. I want a ban on repeat fusion material Pokémon. Those are very different things. Yours punishes even when there isn't a problem. Mine requires all Pokémon to have unique base fusion Pokémon. I see a full ban across everything as very overrraching.

[normal sedge]

But ONE Blissey fusion is a nightmare. One Dragonite fusion is NOT.

[feral beacon]

Not good fusion material! Just broken fusion material.

[normal sedge]

A team of six Dragonite fusions is a nightmare.

[normal sedge]

Right. But there are Pokémon that are good fusion material that becomes broken when used over and over. That's the distinction. You proved my point.

[feral beacon]

...i think i may just not be smart. if ONE Dragonite fusion isn't a nightmare, why would TWO be, any more than any other fusion with high BST?

[normal sedge]

You aren't not smart, don't say that. This is just a nuance of competitive play.

You're very logical

Quite intelligent.

[feral beacon]

i know it's nuanced but you're giving an explanation and i feel like i'm failing to process it

in such a way that we're coming back to the exact same questions

[normal sedge]

OK so let's use Dragonite. How would you counter Dragonite Sylveon.

[sullen ore]

One idea is that

I wouldnt agree that a mono dragonite team is the way to go

More like multiple
Where one dragonite is so strong, that it can wear down its counters
Which leaves them unable to answer a second or even third dragonite

[feral beacon]

...Uh, probably with another fairy.

[normal sedge]

Then I send out Dragonite Klinklang

[sudden prawn]

Just make an entire team of dragonites to pump up usage statistics and get it sent to ubers.

[sullen ore]

This happens sometimes in smogon, like adv rockspam, a team where tyranitar and aerodactyl team up to chip down their counters like swampert

[feral beacon]

I'd counter that with, uh, my highly defensive Gliscor. Set up on you.

[torn jay]

poryz enti

[normal sedge]

I send out Dragonite Quagsire to ruin your setup

[feral beacon]

Back to the fairy, then!

[normal sedge]

Back to Klinklang

And I've only used three

[feral beacon]

Yes, but I've only used two!

[torn jay]

then it becomes a loop

and heres were rocks/spikes come into play

[feral beacon]

Also, maybe I don't switch off my highly defensive gliscor.

Instead, I just hit your Quagsire with Toxic

Now you have to switch out or let me stall you

[normal sedge]

If I have Dragonite for every fusion I have a limited number of potential counters you can possibly use for each. I can trap you in infinite loops, recover with Roost, snipe with Extremespeed, and I'm never taking damage

[sullen ore]

Actually what does gliscor even do to a steel flying klinknite

[feral beacon]

I don't know. Like I said, not very good at this.

[feral beacon]

And how is this different from using multiple different, regular pokemon who all just happen to have recovery moves?

[normal sedge]

That's just normal team building. Using the same fusion base limits your options to counter that I control.

With just one Pokémon.

[feral beacon]

...That doesn't answer my question.

Why isn't using six dragonite fusions just normal team building? You still need to pick six different Pokemon to fuse them with.

[normal sedge]

You could have an entire team of Pokémon with Recover. That doesn't make them all amazing.

[sullen ore]

Its easier to have more well rounded counters against separate pokemon, even if thet have similar traits

When youve got a mon as swingy as dragonite, the amount of prep you can realistically put on a team for it (without making it way too specific and vulnerable to other threats), may not be enough for two dragonites

[feral beacon]

I mean

We could take the scenario you proposed and apply it to a normal Pokemon framework

[normal sedge]

How so?

[feral beacon]

You go in with Mega Altaria. I counter with a fairy. You go to Duraludon. I set up on you with Snorlax. You go to Quagsire to mess up my setup. I go back to my own fairy, or maybe just hit you with Toxic.

I ask you, what is the difference here?

[livid delta]

extreme speed users when I bring a single ghost type

[sullen ore]

Pixilate

[livid delta]

pixilate users when I bring a steel type

[feral beacon]

Sylveon/Dragonite has Pixilate.

[normal sedge]

Snorlax has significantly more weaknesses than Dragonite. It's not a very good Pokémon in most scenarios. You can't control nearly as well. I can control all the options you have to fight Dragonite. There aren't many.

[feral beacon]

Then the problem is Dragonite!

[normal sedge]

Dragonite isn't impossible to beat though. It has counters and checks.

But those counters and checks don't counter and check EVERY Dragonite fusion

So I'd need multiple Pokémon of my 6 just for Dragonite fusions.

[feral beacon]

Those counters and checks do check things that aren't Dragonite.

[normal sedge]

But only if you have multiple Dragonite fusions.

[sullen ore]

So take mega altaria, duraludon, and quagsire

Thats a generalist mon with potential to sweep if given the chance, a special breaker, and a physical wall

They all do different things that any good team should realistically have at least some way to handle

Whereas three dragonites require you to answer a mix of big attack power and priority all at once, but three times as much as normal. Even one is annoying to handle

So even if you have an answer to that kind of threat, it can get worn down by one, and then another can come in later to pick you off now that your counter is weakened

[haughty plaza]

hi whats going on :P

[sullen ore]

The world of beefing about competitive pokemon has breached infinite fusion

[fast blade]

No flying STAB kinda sucks

[feral beacon]

I'm trying to understand why the Species Clause needs to apply to individual fusion elements

[wary flame]

debates

[haughty plaza]

ah
not a good person for input on these because i dont know anything about thwe meta due to literally just joining these showdown channels and not knowing very much about competitive

[normal sedge]

The fact that they work against OTHER Pokémon is the point though. They wouldn't survive multiple Dragonite, but they'd survive one

[feral beacon]

or in other words "why do these people hate my all-Doublade team"

[livid delta]

if only we had some kind of way to fight eachother to test this theory on species clause 🤔

[fast blade]

It doesn't. Especially since one may be the head of a fusion and the other may be the body too